Time to Apologize to Witches

I suppose a post-script to answer one point from Starhawk is in order. I do not call myself "a witch" in order to identify with the victims of persecution, past/present, real or as imaginary as the so-called "burning times." I do so because I exist in a state of relation to the divine and the cosmos that bears that description.

Many of us so described have seriously considered choosing another term simply in order to distance ourselves from those who wish to identify with past or present victimhood.

One cannot both a Witch and a victim be. Harm me, kill me, these can happen but so long as I do not bow the head or bend the knee, I Am No Victim.

While I am no fan of Reclaiming's collective victim attitude, and I have no need for an apology for the past, cessation of present violence and stupidities would be nice. I'd love to see a certain Protestant Bishop taken to task for his "crusade" of running little old ladies out of their homes.

The self-righteousness of JM's blurb leaves little doubt that we, in this country, have a long way to go before communally co-dependent fear and hate mongers are finally shuffled back off to the lunatic fringe where they belong and "Love Thy Neighbor As Thyself" is somewhat close to the rule. I'm always amused by certain groups' efforts to post their parochial codes - the so called "ten commandments" - in public places to point to in attempts to censure others while making absolutely no attempt to follow these themselves.

For those who wish to persist in their hate mongering in the US, I leave two quotes from their own supposed master:

"The law saith 'thou shalt not kill' but verily I say unto thee: Any man who hates his neighbor is a murderer"

"Woe unto he who causes one such as this (a child) to sin, (murder is a 'sin' - no?) It were better for he that a millstone be tied about his neck and he were cast into the sea ..."

The question of whether present day people should apologise for something that happened in the past, sometimes centuries ago, is an interesting one and I think, yes, the apology is both necessary and appropriate in the case of witches.

Just last year the prime minister and government of my country - Australia - apologised to the indigenous Australians for the past policies of Australian governments. Thousands of children were taken from their parents under government policies and many never saw their families again - all in the interests of assimilating Aboriginal people into the white, colonising community. At teh time they believed that Aboriginal people would just die out.

The people that perpetrated that crime against the stolen generations are long dead. No-one living had anything to do with it, but we apologise because we ARE sorry. We are sorry that it happened, and we are sorry for the suffering that happened and that still continues. There are still people living with the legacy of the stolen generations.

Why is it so different for Witches? I don't think it is. Many were murdered - I don't think that is disputed - at the hands of the Catholic Church. Sure, other murderers might have existed too, from other denominations. Does that make it better for Catholics? I don't think so. They are in a position to be able to make the apology, so why not?

An apology says that the church as a whole is sorry that it happened and, like the apology in Australia, it goes a long way towards healing the rifts and wounds and sorrows that people still feel about the past.

Yes, I am a witch.

"I believe that in addition to the apologies mentioned at the lead of this discussion, this Pope should also apologize for his part in silencing Matthew Fox, the Dominican Priest who had the spiritual fortitude to hire the Wiccan theologian, Starhawk, at the the Institute for Creation Spirituality as a member of the faculty."

On the one hand, yes—the Catholic Church was wrong to "silence" Matthew Fox [as if they could get him to shut up.]

On the other hand, it's a bit like being banned in Boston—this sort of response just guarantees a bigger audience.

I do appreciate the light Matthew Fox has thrown on that great renegade cleric/musician/artist from the 12th century, Hildegard von Bingen:

http://tinyurl.com/cdynem
http://www.isi.edu/~lerman/music/Hildegard.html
http://home.infionline.net/~ddisse/hildegar.html

I believe that in addition to the apologies mentioned at the lead of this discussion, this Pope should also apologize for his part in silencing Matthew Fox, the Dominican Priest who had the spiritual fortitude to hire the Wiccan theologian, Starhawk, at the the Institute for Creation Spirituality as a member of the faculty. Based in Oakland, California, the curriculum was based on the earth-based traditions of Creation Spirituality. Because Fox hired Starhawk, an acknowledged witch, alongside acknowledging the feminine nature of God, (as did the early Christian mystics), he was not only provided a year to re-consider the direction of his religious thinking, but was later provided a pink slip and ultimately defrocked, under the rallying outcry of then Cardinal Ratzinger. It was also Ratzinger, who challenged the emergence of liberation theology within the church, and also silenced leaders of the Latin American clergy, who were advocating on behalf of the poor. (Gee, what would Jesus do?) So, yes, the Catholic Church owes an apology to Matthew Fox, and other priests like him, who made attempts to be more catholic or inclusive in their teachings. Certainly, it owes an apology to those who follow the path of Wiccan,or witchcraft, but most especially since this discussion takes place in Newsweek/Washington Post, perhaps, the Pope might take this opportunity to recognize Starhawk, a witch, who despite the Church's efforts to discredit her as a spiritual leader, has become internationally known for her global work on social justice, Middle East peace, and a significant multi-national following as performance artist, author and college educator. As a spiritual activist, she organizes communities rooted in nature, and builds upon interfaith diversity, rather than any one interpretation of Scripture or creed.
A long-standing (and long-spiraling) admirer of Matthew Fox, and Starhawk, both

I was hoping to find the "apologies sketch" by Monty Python, in lieu of that, here's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7D8A7e4TEY

I've been aware of the Burning Times for some time now, though my general tendency is to play David Crosby's "Everybody's been Burned" whenever I get the urge. I'm reasonably sure that self-described pagans can cause as much trouble as self-described christians. However the treatment Giordano Bruno received at the hands of the Church seems like a special case:

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_kessler/giordano_bruno.html

Of course, the Catholic Church has been wrong about so many things for so very long that instead of an apology, maybe these folks would be so kind as to just go away and promise to never meddle in our affairs again.

Sit, ccnl. Sit.

Exactly what do physics have to do with 'anything' sexual? I can't WAIT to hear your explanation for this one.

It's 'your' word about that so called 'analysis.' I want to know your peer reviewed, scientifically backed evidence for such an assertion. For someone of your 'three advanced degrees' it should be a piece of cake for you.

Put up or shut up old man.

Arminius, Mokey, and Gaby, I had to chime in on the music thread (bad pun intended - you can spank me if you can catch me).
I can't imagine my life without music - all kinds of music, from Mozart to the Red Hot Chili Peppers, from Edith Piaf to the Beatles, from Steve Earle to Flogging Molly, from Beethoven to Burning Spear - you get the picture.
And of course, let's not leave out my bohdran and my dombek and the incredible music that is created when we get friends together for a drum circle.
And there's the thrill of being a small part of a larger beauty when I play with the handbell choir.
Music truly is a magic unto itself.

Gaby, congrats on the new grandbaby! I'll lift a Guinness in his (her?) honor when I get home this evening. Hope Mom and the wee one are doing well.

If I choose to call myself a Pict, can I demand an apology from the queen of England for her ancestors extermination of my people.

Wow the world of sarcasm simply has passed by either the young or old Mokey.

And gay sexual activity is by any analysis, is simply "mutual masturbation". Mokey definitity is "physics challenged" in this regard.

"Wow, old Mokey2 cast a spell on my On Faith registration today"

I don't care enough about you to do anything for you, spellwise or otherwise, quite frankly- and I'm not the old one here.

Nice try, old man.

"Mokey seemed to be a bit annoyed about the reality of gay sexual activity being correctly labeled "mutual masturbation"

And once again, I will simply ask you the million dollar question-What makes it reality? how do you know so 'much' about that topic without having participated in it yourself? And why would you even care - you keep having to loudly claim how straight you 'are' while spending all this time demanding of evidence from others that you cannot provide yourself. You are in need of serious therapy and possibly arrest. Come on out, CCNL.

Still never got an answer. This is a pathology by you, old man.

Still resorting to name calling.

"she broke down and purchased a anti-registration spell from a Wiccan witch. "

And what's your 'evidence' for such a thing? I don't spend money for things I could do myself. If I cared enough about you to do so, that is.

It's got nothing to do with me if you can't even get your own computer working.

I'm still waiting for your 'evidence' for any of your beliefs about your Evil God Satan.

Not my fault if you can't answer simple questions.

Put up or shut up.

Again, it appears GABY1 and Farnaz have formed some kind of odd alliance to perpetuate the bearing of false witness by Farnaz. Very strange!!!

And note how GABY1 does not deny or does she apologize for this strange alliance to perpetuate the bearing of false witness by Farnaz!!!

CCNL, you are and always will be a nincompoop.

I will gladly forward messages to you that were obviously sent to me by mistake. My e-mail address is readily available, but just in case you missed it: Nevermore53@yahoo.com

ALIAS ALERT FOR THE DAY: ( a little late as there were some registration issues with On Faith most of the day)

- In case, Farnaz or one of her aliases shows up on this commentary page-

Farnaz aka Farnaz2 aka Observer12 aka Observer31 aka Yael1 aka ivri5678 aka IVRI5678 aka Billy8 was caught "red handed" using all these aliases some threads ago.

After this, she said she would no longer participate in said discussions. As seen, this has not happened but we continue to remind everyone about this "devilish"/delusional woman as a service to our fellow bloggers.
On occasion, she even "talks" to herself in her commentaries i.e. To: ivri5678 From: Farnaz2. She is definitely one strange woman!!
Her newest aliases are "nadinebatra" and "Stadtbear.

And it appears GABY1 and Farnaz have formed some kind of odd alliance to perpetuate the bearing of false witness by Farnaz. Very strange!!!

Arminius,

I think I had a little too much wine tonight. I was celebrating becoming a Grandma at last.

I better go before I say things to certain people that I will deeply regreat later.

Thank you so much my Friend, I will keep in touch.

Gaby

Oh and you know CCNL, that Evil little troll called Stadtbear e-mailed me pictures that were meant for you.. So why don't you go and talk to it!

Hi, Gaby,

CCNL is a recurring nightmare. The more you reply to him, the more he comes back. Ignore him and his like, and life here will be easier. Don't feed his need for attention.

Yes, the music of the whales! But my favorite is the moonlight song of the wolves. Goose bumps....

Not again, CCNL......Please just shut up..... God you are so tiresome...you remind me of a neverending nightmare.....

Mokey,

Music is the most wonderful thing that humans ever have come up with ( Well, maybe not only humans, I love the songs of the whales!

For myself I ,love symphonies that make your heart pound and your head spinning. Never cared for chamber music, it's just not my style. My music needs to let me feel the laughter of a child, the bubbling of a brook, the roar of a lion, the tanquility of the sea, etc.

When I am close to death I want to hear the music of the masters.....But what I want to hear most is Dvorak's Four Seasons...it speaks to MY soul...

Wow, old Mokey2 cast a spell on my On Faith registration today and I finally got my guardian "pretty wingie thingie" to break it.

Mokey seemed to be a bit annoyed about the reality of gay sexual activity being correctly labeled "mutual masturbation" and resorted to voodooing the hoodoo and when that did not work, she broke down and purchased a anti-registration spell from a Wiccan witch. Hopefully she apologizes for going to such extremes.

It worked my friend, and I replied!

Gaby,

Just tried again. Let me know.

Oh, Arminius, just in case I mistyped my e-mail address in my earlier request for you to contact me, it's Nevermore53@yahoo.com

Hi Arminius,

I just checked my e-mail and couldn't find anything from you! Could you please try again?

Gaby

"trying to appropriate the mantle of medieval martyrs for her own church."

Starhawk and other Pagans don't generally have a church. There's no set hierarchical system beyond what a local community might have. Starhawk teaches from her own tradition, which is different.

As for the whole 'spiritual lineage' movement, we do know that a whole lot of what constitutes modern day religious practices comes directly from the absorption of Pagan cultures and divinities by the prevailing religions. Most modern Wiccans know that there really isn't a lot of 'direct' lineages that stretch back into antiquity.

That's why I wish there were more Pagan authors on this site, like Isaac Bonewits who does a great job of separating out what he calls Paleopaganism, MesoPaganism from the modern day NeoPaganism- who can help clear up confusions and distinctions from something like this. It's from folks like him where a lot of things get debunked based on incredible scholarship and academic research.

I can't help but wonder to what degree Starhawk is concerned with wrongs done by the Catholic church 500 years ago - to people who were, for the most part, actually Christian believers - and to what degree she is simply trying to appropriate the mantle of medieval martyrs for her own church. While I've had Wiccan friends, and find their belief system at least as wholesome as most Christian denominations, their claims to a spiritual lineage going back to ancient times are as dubious as those of the Mormons.

"music does that. Just listening to it sure helps me."

It's my way of relaxing and just focusing on the immediate surrounding area.

"I could go on about music for a long time, and I don't know crap about it, I just love it."

Same here. I absolutely love Air on G string myself as well as some others I don't even know the names to. My synesthesia really makes for great listening experiences too- it's when your brain wires activate differently at different times. My visual brain acts up when I hear music and I can associate specific colors to specific notes- like a visual painting to music. Lots of fun to play with. :)

Why apologize?

If it were not for the Torah and those who uphold it, there would be no 'witches' at all.

"Witches' are a rejection of God and Biblical thought. They desperately need that thought in order to have validity.

Without it, they would be less than weird, just another crzy group like people who think flourescent lights give children diseases and stuff like that. Fringe nothings. It is precisely the Pope who is authorizing them as true rejectionists.

Let's just cut to the chase. The Pope, and the Catholic Church in general, should just apologize for ever existing. Can anyone point to anything they have ever done - other than for a brief time supporting the poor in Central America, I'll give those local parishes credit for that - that's been (a) morally correct (b) factually correct or (c) of any positive use to humankind?

They were wrong about witches, wrong about Galileo and cosmology, wrong about Darwin and evolution, wrong when helping the Nazis persecute the Jews, wrong when protecting their pedophiles, wrong in persecuting gays now.... Just: wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong... How can any rational human being imagine that the Pope has some sort of special Hotline to the "Almighty" when the instituation is batting 0-for-Eternity through history?

I am not too kind, Mokey, probably not kind enough. And there is nothing ironic about opera keeping you sane - music does that. Just listening to it sure helps me. My experience with Turandot was a life turner. I saw some of the agonies of the production, and witnessed the dress rehearsal and the final production. Got to meet the tenor - Eduardo Villa, who later went on to the Met, and his rendering of 'Nessun Dorma' was goose-bump stuff!

As for music being holy to me - even in my 30 years of being an agnostic/atheist, I truly believed that when Beethoven composed his 9th symphony, he reached up and touched Heaven. I could go on about music for a long time, and I don't know crap about it, I just love it.

You're too kind, Arminius. So many days I keep wondering why I do this. The burnout is incredible in this field. Ironically, it's the opera stuff that keeps me sane.

I know he's just another troll. I was hoping to get at the human being underneath the trollery, and I actually did get more than he's ever admitted to other folks here. I just can't help but wonder why on earth the only parts he's ever retained about Christianity ARE the fundamentalist parts.

I've never been Christian, but even I know there's got to be more to it than utter fundamentalism or there would be no adherents. You're a great example of what it *could* be.

Wow! Turandot with gymnasts! That had to have been cool. (the most I've seen of Turandot is a workshop done by a couple of friends for a scene)

a lot of people don't realize the amount of work that goes into a performance either. It's no different than an athlete training for the Olympics- the only difference being that the Olympic athletes don't have to compete for 3 or sometimes more hours at a stretch for weeks on end.

I've been known to vibrate a few windows, myself. It's a good way to channel emotions and clear them out.

Frankly I think it goes beyond witches, and the apology should be to women. Literal readings of the Bible have been used for millennia to justify persecution of women who have clung to an image of Divinity that is feminine. This empowers women in a way that is beyond threatening to the patriarchal religions, whose very foundation is built on books that say Woman is the cause of all sin and death in the world. The whole thing is incredibly out of balance. I've written at more length about this just recently on my blog under the title of Goddess in the Bible, about the Saint John's Bible project. A team of scribes and illuminators are producing the entire Bible by hand, the first time since Gutenburg, and have included some images of the Divine Feminine that are quite beautiful. Come by for a visit: http://cariferraro.blogspot.com/2009/03/goddess-in-bible.html

Mokie,

You move me. I could not remain sane under the conditions you work. You are Walking the Walk much more than most Christians, including myself, and I honor you for that,

As for CCNL, he is a robotic troll, and is not worthy of your attention. I have had it out with him too, and he is no more capable of learning, let alone compassion, than a rusty crowbar. Don't waste energy on him, life is too damn short. Enemies are plentiful, friends are rare.

A good singer is always welcome - I know first hand the power of the operatic - i.e. the human - voice, I was close up and personal with a great presentation of Turandot once. My daughter, not a singer but a gymnast, was in it. Fantastic. It always amazes me that so few know that opera singers don't use microphones....

"What ya gotta do is stay crazy, but don't go insane! BIG difference!"

What started the whole thing was his posting of one of his 'obama got elected because of abortion' things- and I decided to see what would happen if I used his own way of talking against him. And boy did he pick the wrong topic to start with me on.. as someone who works daily with preemie babies and children with delays/disabilities/families in poor economic conditions, I see what happens when a woman is forced to give birth when she has no other means to support the family she already has. I've worked with little kids who have been raped before they can walk and It's all i can do to not just lose it. And to hear someone as sanctimonious and arrogant as he is have zero compassion for any child who's already here just was a bad combination. I let him have it.

He really stuck his foot in it when he admitted he does absolutely nothing for families in need besides practice his sanctimony behind a computer. I spend my workdays dealing with a lot of his ilk and I just decided it was time for him to put up.

You're absolutely right- fundamentalists do come in all stripes. Maybe I do care too much about the families I work for. It does make me a little bit insane. It's not like I do it for the money- there isn't any.

A piper, huh? Hmm. Would you settle for a semi professional opera student with a pretty decent voice? :)

Mokey!

What ya gotta do is stay crazy, but don't go insane! BIG difference!

I'll bring the Guinness and my claymore, you bring the music, and, by God, there must be a piper!

On a serious note, one thing I have learned here is that fundamentalists come in all stripes. Not all are your garden-variety right-wing-nut Christians. We have fundie atheists as well, and others. And political fundies - the followers of Rush Bimbo, for example. In other words, to broaden the definition, anyone (e.g. CCNL) who will not depart from, or even discuss at a reasonable level, his/her/its/their position.

"I have lost it here a couple of times, by getting so angry at the general s***-slinging that I got seriously out of line. I regret that."

You're not the only one, please don't feel bad about that. I've been seriously deconstructing CCNL myself, to the point that now on two full threads he hasn't even bothered to answer me because I boxed him into a corner using his own demands for evidence and exposed him for the Christian fundamentalist he really is.

I shouldn't have done it, I know- but boy did that feel good. Take a look at the 'tony blair/sexuality' thread to get an idea. :)

"So let's try to keep up some sense of sanity here."

Nah. Sane is boring. ;) I say break out the drums. I'll bring the music, you bring the ale- and maybe the claymore for protection. :)

Hey, Mokey,

Well, I hope I still have a sense of reason! I have lost it here a couple of times, by getting so angry at the general s***-slinging that I got seriously out of line. I regret that. And by damn I miss the people who have left, especially my favorite atheist, Mr Mark, and, of course, all my Pagan friends. These blogs have really been sliding down that primrose path, paved with good intentions, to you know where. So let's try to keep up some sense of sanity here.

Gaby,

I have replied to your email. Awaiting your reply.

Heck, when it comes to apologies- I'd just settle right now for old women not being driven from their homes and villages just for being different- as that so-called 'witch hunter' did recently in Africa.

Personally I'd love an apology from Sarah Palin- I'd love to get her to talk about the so called 'protection from witches' she received from that guy- in a room in front of a bunch of Pagans. The fact that someone who associated with someone who deliberately runs people out of town got so close to the presidency of the US frightens me more than anything else.

MMA Arminius!
It's good to see you, too. Makes me feel like there's still some folks with a sense of reason. That kinda gets lost amidst all the vitriol and attempts to tell others what to believe that are espoused by so many on this site.

The site just got all weird on us with this whole new registration rigamarole. It's really frustrating. I think I got it working, though.

and gaby1 ...learn how to spell
its advise not advice....i see you didn't make it through high school

i didnt say salem was the only one, just sayin if your gonna demand an apology why not all?
or even England since a lot of them were taken place there

Heyma, you seem to think that the Salem witch trials were the one and only time that "witches" were persecuted. Actually, witches were persecuted (chiefly by the Catholic Church, but also by many other Christians) for hundreds of years; beginning long before Europeans settled North America. One quick site is http://medievalhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/inquisitions_of_the_middle_ages
Many books have been written about the topics and the involvement of the Catholic Church is a matter of historical record.

heyma0819:

I would advice you to take a few history courses!

Arminius,

I would like to speak with you privately about a matter totally unrelated to this particular blog. Please e-mail me at Nevermore53@yahoo.com

Thanks, my friend.

Gaby

Starhawk,

Every time I read your essays I am amazed at how gracious and elegant you are! I do not subscribe to any religion, although I am spiritual. Should I ever decide to join a religion I think I'd like to be a witch with you as my High Priestress.

Thank you for your insights and for posting on this blog.

Gaby

Pam,

With all due respect, I disagree. You said: "For me (and perhaps just me) I see any apology from any other religion as keeping Witches in the role of victims."

An apology for past wrongdoings should be welcome whether by any other religion or any other person. Apologies, if sincere, signify that a person or institution is contrite of past uncivilized actions and is hopefully willing to make changes..

Have you never had to apologize for anything?

I even apologize to my dogs should carelessly cause them pain or harm, such as stepping on a tail because it's sticking out from under the table and I didn't see it.

Again, an apology, if sincere, should be accepted with grace.

Hi, Mokey,

NIce to find someone familiar here for a change, Very rare these days. I had to jump thru multiple flaming hoops to post this, dunno why this site hates me.

If the Bishop of Rome (aka Pope) would make an apology for the persecution of witches, this would be a good, if small, step forward, Other steps forward have been made by the Vatican, as mentioned here. But, as you and others have properly noted, they must be followed by definitive actions. So far Benedict seems to take two steps forward into the 21st century, and three back into the Middle Ages.

testing

Why don't you go after everyone who's from Salem Massachusetts as well? In fact why not go and demand an apology from all the Englishmen. The fact that you blame the Roman Catholic church specifically is just plain ignorant. If no one bothered to read, Puritans are the specific religion they recorded as the ones who prosecuted them. If you follow down history, they are later split into the current Protestants, Baptists, Presbyterians and so on. This leads to the following, they do not all follow the Catholic church. Do not come so easily to blame one specific religion just because you decide you want an apology for something that has not happened to you directly nor anyone from this current time period by people who are no longer living. Just suck it up.
Which ever "college" you think you learned this from you may want to get a refund....

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand I think it would be an important first step to hear an apology from the Pope on this- trying to gloss over the darker side of what the church has inflicted on so many people, of all religions, makes it seem more likely that such things will continue.

Certainly the slaughter of the Natives and taking of their lands all over the world merits at least one.

On the other hand, if it isn't followed up by action to redress the very real effects that still haunt people today, it becomes shallow and empty.

The question posed to the OnFaith columnists was about Pope Benedict's recent apologies, one of them for clergy sexual abuse.

I don't see apologies from perpetrators as keeping survivors in the role of victims, or wanting an apology as holding one in a place of powerlessness. So often survivors have endured years of being told that they were wrong, those things did not happen, when they know otherwise. An apology at the very least acknowledges the reality survivors know is true, it is a good first step.

Apologies certainly are not all that is needed to right the wrongs and end the isms, and they often highlight the very challenges left in front of us. For example Benedict apologized for clergy sexual abuse, but has made no moves to hold the men responsible accountable, in fact has refused to do so. At the same time he is excommunicating a priest who will not recant his views that women should be allowed to become catholic priests.

But to many survivors of clergy sexual abuse the apology itself is worth something. Not everything, but something. I do not believe that accepting the apology minimizes the abuse, or casts any survivor in the role of victim. It does not fix it, it is not all that needs to be done, but it is something. Acknowledging this ugly reality of unknown numbers of children is huge in some ways. I was one of those children, and I find it powerful to hear the words.

I feel the same way about the idea of an apology to witches. Starhawk is right on it when she says "...call ourselves Witches is to consciously identify with the victims of those persecutions. ". That is a major part of why I use the word Witch myself, and I would consider it a fine thing if there were such an apology from the vatican. That doesn't mean I'll stop my life while I sit around waiting for it, but I still think it'd be great.

If it's one of the darkest eras in Roman Catholic Church history, why do they still call it 'The Holy Inquisition"/

I apologize to everyone whom I have offended in the present or past lives. I apologize for all injuries throughout history from any institution with which I associate, past or present, or any injury that might occur in the future. These institutions include my country, state, church, fraternal organizations, neighbors, casual acquaintances, and fellow patrons at the local watering hole. These injuries include all physical, psychological and emotional injuries, real or imagined, whether intended or not.

Thank you.

I'm sorry.

That should about cove it.

This is excellent, Starhawk. This is something that I’ve been on about for decades. See my editorials: “A Petition for Redress of Grievances” (Green Egg #96, Ostara 1992) and “Apology for the Burning Times” (Green Egg #131, Nov.-Dec. 1999).

On October 29, 1998, the Vatican said that “it had to take responsibility for one of the darkest eras in Roman Catholic Church history—the Inquisition, in which thousands of accused heretics were imprisoned, tortured or burned at the stake during the middle ages. Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, leader of the Vatican’s committee for 2000, opened a three-day symposium on the Inquisition…The Church ‘cannot pass into the new millennium without urging its sons to purify themselves, through penitence, of its errors, its infidelities, and its incoherences…’ The Rev. Georges Cottier, a top Vatican theologian, told the symposium.” (From “Vatican Assumes Responsibility for Inquisition,” by Alessandra Galloni –10/30/1998, Reuters)

And I’m sure you remember the major “Papal Apology Petition “ that I created ten years ago, and sent to the Vatican with 6,000 signatures, for the Pope’s Jubilee, in which he subsequently issued a blanket apology, including a recognition that the Church had indeed unjustly persecuted indigenous peoples and religions throughout the world. The full text and info on this petition may be found in the following article: “Pagans Seek Papal Apology” (Green Egg #131, Nov-Dec. 1999, p. 48). Unfortunately, although Chris LaFond had the entire story up on a website for many years at http://www.lafonds.net/pagans/Papal_Apology/index.htm, that page no longer exists. Perhaps Chris could supply you with the information: Christopher A. LaFond chris@lafond.us

Also see http://www.circlesanctuary.org/liberty/report/spring2000.htm#papal and http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/19471.htm

Bright Blessings,
Oberon Zell-Raveneart

With due respect, I call myself a Witch and do not want an apology from any other religion for past atrocities.

For me (and perhaps just me) I see any apology from any other religion as keeping Witches in the role of victims. I believe that needing and/or wanting an apology keeps me/us in a place of powerlessness--that is, we can't heal on our own without acknowledgment from another (in this circumstance, the 'other' being any other historically powerful religion). This to me flies in the face of our belief that we are our own spiritual authority and cognizant of our own divinity--to me, an apology from another religion serves only as a reminder that we give them the power to cast us as kooks or cast us as legitimate, when we can give ourselves the legitimacy we want.

Additionally, many apologies are meted out today--apologies for persecution of one variety or another. But these words seem to do little to end racism, sexism, etc. I feel that apologies make us--both victim and aggressor--feel better in the short term but do little to ameliorate the root causes of the problems between humans. Perhaps apologies could take the form of funding for education of future generations in how to better appreciate and explore the differences of the human condition. A simplistic view, perhaps, but to me, action holds greater power and longer effect than words.

Lastly, I think an apology also furthers the role of Witches as the 'other.' An apology from another clergy illustrates that we ourselves are unwilling to relinquish our unproductive stance that others must reach out to us. That stance will only keep us powerless. Think about it--in a simplistic way, one method that Religions of the Book gained power was to assimilate Pagan theology into their own matrix--granted, they corrupted it but they recognized how to draw non-Book folk in--by explaining the Book in terms Pagans already understood. Today we as Pagans have a unique opportunity to reach out to Book folks in much the same way--explaining our faith in terms they already understand. Simply put, we demand appreciation but put nothing on the table to start the conversation, and really we must do this. We can demand tolerance all we want, but will be powerless until we accept human nature and work to educate. Education, not apology, seems to me to be the more powerful thing.

>Worshipers of the Creator apologize to worshipers of the created? Surely you jest?
> JM

It is your belief then that worshipers of your Creator may torture and kill believers in a different faith with impunity and without remorse?

It does not sound like you Creator is the God of the Christians.

Unfortunately power corrupts, and ultimate power corrupts absolutely. The church definately needs to apologize for the money, land, and belongings, that were stolen, by any means neccesary.

Most people dont know that the churches approval of Malleus Maleficarum, was falsified, just so the witch hunts could begin. Even after the conterfit seal was discovered, the church didnt admit that people died needlessly.

Thats what the church needs to apologize for.

Eric

Abuse of another person, each of whom is created in the image and likeness of God, regardless of their beliefs, is an affront to the Creator. My church should readily apologize to "witches" and to any other persons whose beliefs prompted persecution and abuse. Father Michael

I remember reading about this in college. Most of the "witches" were tortured to coerce confessions prior to being executed. This is definitely something the Catholic Church needs to make amends for. The Church was directly responsible for the torture killings of many thousands of women. And it was the official policy of the Catholic Church. Thanks for bringing this up; it is helpful to educate people about the evil that people do, and that being a Christian has sometimes encouraged people to engage in evil acts.

I'm a thorough-going secularist who usually posts under Susan Jacoby's column. But if I thought witches really existed and did the things medieval people believed, even _I'D_ be in favor of executing them.

Worshipers of the Creator apologize to worshipers of the created? Surely you jest?

JM