Reject the Politics of Hate

Silly. Meanwhile, on the national mood... I'm still a little conccerned that all these accusations of 'socialism' and 'terrorism,' and the racist overtones coming from the MCcain camp could result in some ugly scenes...

And, I found this today, on the topic, here.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/20/keith-olbermann-special-c_n_136385.html

Release the mosquitoes, the witches, witch doctors, priests, priestesses, imams, clerics and prophets are in the building!!!! Yum, yum!!!

"Pet Vampire"? Where do I get one of those? I'll take Spike from "Buffy", please! I wouldn't mind having Josef from "Moonlight", either, but two vamps might be too much work. :D

Just remember, "God hates fangs!"

Farnaz,

I agree with you about his rantings. I've read more on this site than I've posted, and I've found his treatment of anyone not like him absolutely reprehensible.

He's really quite pathetic. He has no *need* for a 'pet vampire', cause he *is* one.

One does have to wonder where CCNL's 'starting his day' right now. Transylvania? Maybe. I'm thinking, maybe, the Sudetenland. :)

Ah. 'Pet vampires.' They're so cute when they're little, but next thing you know...

Croissant/Bagel/Donut/Giant Mosquito Alert!

Take cover, all ye who love the earth and environs!

Well another day has started and the voodoo darts continue to fly. Fear not, my pet vampire continues to deflect the darts as he continues to be fed by my pet mosquitoes. They so love Pagan, Mormon and Muslim blood.

If only Tasha's spells would work!!!!

"If 'truths' 'compete,' Farnaz, they're probably smaller than we want to think."

Or bigger?! :-)

Eh, we gotcher Gorgons right here. Whose shield was that on, again? :)

If 'truths' 'compete,' Farnaz, they're probably smaller than we want to think.

Mokey2,

You're probably right about smoke-blowing, but somehow it seems like more than that to me. A couple of times he said such horrible things about Muslims to Jihadist that most of us went ballistic. Arminius was posting when this happened, I think. CC's troubled, plagued by religious doubt, desperate to make converts so as to reassure himself. In the process, he's a walking advertisement against the views he espouses--ironic.

"never, ideally, anyway, let it make your decisions for you"

Not letting your anger rule you and not letting others manipulate you is important for us all, I think. Reactive anger is often defensiveness against ugly truths. I don't know if the truth frees us, but what is the alternative....

Sometimes, though, we need to recognize that there are competing truths. Sometimes, not.

It's actually a very important thing about the Pagan view of anger, ...recognize it, use it, 'own' it, as they say, ...never, ideally, anyway, let it make your decisions for you, as some would try and move one to.

Merry meet again, Farnaz!

I think he's all about blowing smoke..

Arminius,

"Constant effort sometimes to contain it."

Funny thing, you know. Sometimes, I simply have to decide when it's best to contain it, and when not. Sometimes, and I speak only for myself, when a thing gets too evil, I reach the point at which I want the gorgon to raise it's head, that is, if it is a gorgon, and it's amazingly simple to get it to do so. On another thread, CCNL showed the gorgon, although that doesn't mean that's all there is of him.

The thing with gorgons is that contrary to common opinion, not only is it not dangerous to see them, it's salutary. One knows what one is looking at. It is easier to combat it and/or try to heal it.

Hello, Mokey2, formerly Priver!
Good to see your posts!

"Constant effort sometimes to contain it."

The fact that you can not only recognize that impulse in yourself, Arminius, and work to contain it shows that you're light years ahead of so many others. including what's-his-face.

Paganplace said,
"n a very real sense, we've all got to keep our heads, is what it is. What bothers me about all the hatemongering and denial thereof is, well...
Who or what can it possibly serve?
Nothing good, anyway. "

Nothing good at all. Worse, all this hatred and fear and denial tends to stir up the same emotions in all of us. I have certainly seen that in myself. Constant effort sometimes to contain it.

In a very real sense, we've all got to keep our heads, is what it is. What bothers me about all the hatemongering and denial thereof is, well...

Who or what can it possibly serve?

Nothing good, anyway.

Farnaz,

CCNL crossed the line a long time ago. You have not seen the worst he has said - I have. He is here to disrupt, to anger, to hurt. In a sense, he is a blog terrorist.

Arminius,

"Ya ain't nevur gonna get thru to the Demented Donut. He'll jes' keep on throwin' the same crap at ya."

It's gotten out of hand. The racism against various groups-Jews, Muslims, Pagans, etc-the homophobia. He's crossed the line. Maybe the best way to deal is to post third-person comments on his posts, rather than address him on them, directly. That is, unless he can see his way clear to taking a look at what he's been doing, and stop.

Farnaz

Well, it could be too late for instruction. On a board such as this, people are still looking to preserve their sense of 'righteousness' against a bunch of done deals... My dear one and I are sitting between major metropolitan areas and where Bush violated posse comitatus to deploy trops for domestic pacification duties... Just like I said when Bush cleared the way for that, I say someone's planning some stuff.

Sweetie was reminded of this and said, 'Should we run?' and I was like, 'Too late, now. Wish we could have stayed up North, but if we have to be down here it's the best place to be. We can only get rolled over once.'

Only half-joking, there.

But whatever people are afraid of 'might come to pass with Obama just aren't paying attention to what *has.*

Paganplace,

Ya ain't nevur gonna get thru to the Demented Donut. He'll jes' keep on throwin' the same crap at ya. But, of course, your words can instruct others.

Ah, I'm not saing it's a bad idea, Arminius, it just gets a little tedious when someone insists your very real religion is about 'voodoo darts.' :)

It's not as if, some long time ago, I was never some manner of Elven Cleric/Ranger: "Don't make me beat you up with both hands and then heal you. :)

Paganplace,

I didn't play D&D until I was over 50. My son got me into it with his friends. I soon graduated to Dungeon Master because I could invent a whole world, maps included.

Actually, though, it's not a bad metaphor, he demonstrates about as much lack of acumen, yet self-assuredness about magic as a D&D fan brings to kenjutsu, which is to say.... Less than none.

Ah, Lady, Arminius, Gods know what he's even talking about. I'm probably reaching a bit, but I bet he was the kid who was like, 'I won't play if I can't bring my 25th level anti-Paladin... :)

I mean, hey, if Bush wants to bring the *economy* back to the 70's, why not with the D&D? :)

Ah, yes, D&D. Used to be a Dungeon Master. Paganplace is a +20 smite, and our beloved Croissant is -4 smite because of a cursed weapon.

"CCNL
"Wow, those voodoo darts are flying today!!! No problem, my pet vampire is doing a great job in deflecting them. I must increase his helping of Pagan and Catholic Mass blood!!!"

*pushing up glasses to rub eyes.*

*sigh.*

OK, save vs spell at -4 for a low Wisdom score, CCNL. I had no idea you were just plain thinking this was a Dungeons and Dragons site.

*politely steering*

Anyway, meanwhile, just like all those Muslim columnists seem to have been driven off from all this heartfelt and rational communication with the faithful by the constant diversion of people attacking posters of different faith for *being* of a different faith, ...we're still not on topic, here.

Anyone learned yet?

Radical notion, here, but how bout we swing back somewhere in the general direction of comment on what a Pagan columnist actually said to us?

About some things we might actually want to look at, just in case we were living in some government based on the consent of an informed populace or anything.

Wow, those voodoo darts are flying today!!! No problem, my pet vampire is doing a great job in deflecting them. I must increase his helping of Pagan and Catholic Mass blood!!!

Well, that followed from him confusing a hypothetical condition he proposed with his 'literal' reality. I didn't say he speaks ruthfully, just that he has a funny idea of reality.

Paganplace,

The Bewildered Bagel did claim that he bought spells. Here is his post from this web:

CCNL

Help!!!

I purchased ten Wiccan spells last week and none are working. Do I have to get my witch license first??

October 17, 2008 1:21 PM | Report Offensive Comments

He didn't even say he actually purchased anything, btw, he said he saw an order form and told us what he *wanted* to purchase, then proceeded as if he had. Then tried to use a harmless-little and possibly productive spell he also didn't do to try and claim he should expect results.

Hel, if he bought a toaster oven that way, and said, 'I read the box, this thing doesn't work, fraud!'

I'd be like, 'Did you unpack the thing and put toast in it? Or is that too real for you?'

Ah, what was your clue, 'Custom Wicca Spell casting?' You'd think in twenty years someone could get the grammar right. :)

If it *was* purchased, I think he ought to ask for a refund.

But you know, I'm beginning to think that he *didn't* actually purchase anything.

Just another cut and paste job from the spammer-calling-himself "liberated"

Pagan Friends,

Here is Tasha's web site:
http://www.witchcraftspellsnow.com/
An obvious scam.

Looks like the Confused Croissant simply copied stuff from the site for his posts. Typical.

Eh, after CCNL's latest bout, it's quite possible whoever this Tasha is, she's a lot more reasonable than CCNL tries to present. Look how he distorts what we say right to his face?

"Tasha, the Wiccan Priestess of the Ill-Alli Temple is very disappointed in Mokey2's ranting."

Too bad.

Assuming, of course, that she actually *exists*, which I highly doubt, why do you attempt to speak for another? Does she require you to speak for her?

Ah, well, Get Informed, a lot of people actually *do* believe some pretty inane things about us, and go through their lives thinking there's no reason to ever question what they were told. In a way, CCNL kind of gets some of it out in the open, absolutely tedious as he can be about his obsessive-compulsive attempts to twist his own literalism into something that defines people of other beliefs.

On some level, I think he's trying to make his lockstep with Christian Conservative beliefs seem like the most rational course, so he can have the sense of certainty and authority without any of that inconvenient spirituality.

When he first turned up on these threads, he was kind of bewildered we wouldn't accept his literalistic scaremongering about people of still *other* beliefs. I think the latest tack about trying to reduce us to some idea of spell-mongering fluffbunnies is to convince himself he really has all the answers after all.

But, if anyone reads the back-and-forth here, I have few concerns what conclusions anyone might draw.

Get_informed,

Good post, thanks. You have summed up the problems on these blogs very nicely. On this one the problem is CCNL, aka Confused Croissant. He is an internet troll, here simply to stir up trouble. He is also truly an 'equal opportunity' bigot, firing salvos at anyone in range. He never discusses, never really answers questions, just keeps on posting his vitriol.

Sigh, how exhausting it must be to go through all these inane posts making jokes about Wicca instead of contributing something useful.
The politics of hate have been used to turn Americans' anxiety and anger about their present circumstances into a blame-game similar to pre-WWII Germany.
The fact that the author of this article is Wiccan should have no bearing on the merits of her message. But that is the point, isn't it? Instead of focusing on facts, information and honest communication, we are only focused on the other person's religion, race, culture or sex. With so much noise, is it too much to hope that Americans can actually listen to each other and solve our most pressing problems?

(BTW, that one's pretty safe, unlike what you claimed to have 'bought.' Still, you'd be surprised how many big-talkers will balk at such a simple thing. That's part of what can make it powerful. People often don't know how their hangups and inhibitions hurt them, most especially the little ones that they consider beneath their notice. )

Oh, yeah. On the little 'love spell,' there, CCNL, did you actually *do it and follow through,* or do you plan to sit around and say, 'Hey, I *read* the thing... What a ripoff, absolutely nothing happened.'

"So Wiccan spells are magic after all i.e. fast hand trickery??"

Err, no? I won't even ask what tortured logic drew that out of even your own erroneous characterizations.

"And well Tasha is an renowned priestess."

Oh, really. Is she. So happens I've been pretty well-connected. Strange no one's ever mentioned her.

Hi, Wiccan!

I think that the "fluff bunny" must be the Confused Croissant's favorite stuffed animal that he cuddles up with at night.

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

Hmmm, you noted: "Anyone experienced in Wiccan magic would know this.

Of course, a lot of folks out there think 'Wiccan' is just a more-literate-sounding way to say 'Witch."

So Wiccan spells are magic after all i.e. fast hand trickery??

And well Tasha is an renowned priestess. And we do believe you have your own priestess license. So being literally correct, we assume it is not witch for Wiccan but priestess for Wiccan??

Wiccan/Priestess Spell of the Day:

"Good Deed Beauty and Love Spell
Need:

5 votive candles

Your picture

Place the 5 votive candles in a shape of a heart and place your picture in the center, ask the Goddess of Love to make you beautiful/handsome. Thank the Goddess/Starhawk? and do something really nice for someone that you despise, do not know or don't care much about. The good you do will come back to you!"

I am now anxiously awaiting all these nice things to come my way!!!

Merry Meet, Henry, and all good folks!

I've been waiting for CCNL to post the definition of a "fluff bunny".

;-D

Hello, Henry! And others. :)

Obama's definitely cool as they come, which is certainly an attribute to be valued in a President in these times, ...at least all the negativity about him has proven this, for us.

*laughing about CCNL's purported buying of spells.* Not that I think for a second he bothered to actually get in contact with the supposed 'Wiccan,' never mind actually paid for spells.

Also not to think for a second he actually understands or is willing to honestly assess what he may have been reading, in the first place: he's generally shown himself unwilling to get it straight when we speak right at him.

Like how it's not considered wise or ethical in Wicca to try and use spells to coerce anyone. It'd be doubly foolish to try targeting anything like that at random Wiccans, too. Anyone experienced in Wiccan magic would know this.

Of course, a lot of folks out there think 'Wiccan' is just a more-literate-sounding way to say 'Witch.'

But one just has to wonder what the threefold return on *what you claimed you bought* would be.

"People I try to mock and defame aren't 'nice people' to me." (What, not finding enough 'nice people' to try and pick on? I think we've been very patient with his attempts at bullying. But don't bullies always whine. )

OK. Hocus-cadabra. We're nice people to you.

Still not gonna let you pick on people. Why you got something against all these nice people, CCNL?

Tasha, the Wiccan Priestess of the Ill-Alli Temple is very disappointed in Mokey2's ranting.

If CCNL wants Pagans to be nice, he ought to try being nice to them. And stop pretending to know anything about what it's actually about.

He has no control over anyone but himself. And that's too much work, so he seeks power over others.

Which NEVER works.

Ignoramus.

I'm one of those underemployed folks who gets to spend too much time surfing the web, predictably seeking out the sorts of left-wing blogs that reinforce my views. I know I'm lucky---a lot of people are looking at a whole lot of nothing these days. My local Food Not Bombs group has been cooking more food and running out faster in the last few months. But thanks to a stable and loving relationship [with a teacher who has to work too much---thanks NCLB] I really have no worries and look forward to having a job with a reasonable amount of hours and reasonable pay asap.

The politics of hate really does run both ways. Last Friday night, on Bill Maher's "Real Time" pollster Frank Luntz, a contributor for Fox news, appeared. Like a lot of Republicans he is appalled by the conduct of the McCain campaign, in particular the conduct of the crowds at McCain's and Palin's rallys. Frank Luntz said that Obama is going to win, in large part because he has distained from engaging in the politics of division. In order for the politics of division, of exclusion, to work both sides need to engage in hostilities.

I thought what Frank Luntz had to say was reasonable and thoughtful, much like the comments General Colin Powell made this morning when he threw his support to Obama. What was striking was the derision that Mr. Luntz received from Bill Maher. Bill---you won! Can't you be gracious, say thank you and move on? We on the left have been engaged in the politics of hate---if only in response to the likes of Coulter and Hannity and Limbaugh--- for so long that it's become commonplace. If we are going to make it through the coming crises we have to learn to say thank you to people who are finally getting it instead of driving them away. The folks who used to constitute the intellectual wing of Conservatism have seen the coming Idiocracy and have finally relented. The fact that people like Andrew Sullivan, Christopher Hitchens and Kathleen Parker are supporting Obama is a great gift. The Tower is crumbling.

Spidermean may be only half right, but it doesn't do us any good to act like he's 100% wrong. CCNL is probably spending too much time on blogs [just like I am] but the fact is that there are plenty of scams that are marketed as "Wiccan." And I consider myself to be a Wiccan. I'm sure the manufacturing plants over in China that cook up all those cute little fairy statues that are filling up the shop I work at [two days a week] make all those angel statues that are on display at Berean's Bible shop way cross town. The intellectual and moral attributes of Pagans are just as variable in quality as those of any other faiths.

Starhawk: "Those of us who lay claim to some form of spiritual leadership should absolutely condemn the tactics of personal attack. We should call our politicians and our communities to think, speak and act from our best selves, not our worst, from respect and compassion, not from stoked-up rage and hate."

To paraphrase Gertrude Stein: An ad hominem attack is an ad hominem attack is an ad hominem attack.

Henry James -

Welcome back! Your wisdom has been missed.

from Henry James

Starhawk unfailingly conveys profound wisdom.
Anger, when justified, absolutely. Feminism as a great example.

Hate: No. Destructive of both the Hater and the Hatee.

Obama has a remarkable ability to transcend hate. The Goddess must have granted him that grace.

Love and hello to Arminius and Paganplace and Wiccan.

Henry

Tasha, the Wiccan Priestess of the Ill-Alli Temple noted that I should give my "make all Pagans and their supporters nice people" spells a bit more time to work.

"There's not much of a pagan community here in Anchorage Alaska."

Must be a Hec of a place to be a Pagan, though. :) When I was young, that was where I always wanted to go: I always consoled myself with a dream I'd run away there and fly a float plane. Sadly, the body and circumstance didn't agree with those plans. Guess it's just as well I didn't, these days. Blessed be, though. :)

Hi Starhawk,
Wonderful to hear your voice as part of a mainstream dialogue on spirituality.

You spoke in this last post of the problems of making fear based decisions. It is so much easier to control people when they are in fear. Using collective fear of terrorists, economic ruin, racial difference, or witches for that matter, will often stampede people into complicity with the biggest bully that can offer protection. This is where we are in the US, continually stampeded from one paranoid fear to another, and rarely given time to contemplate war or economic decisions.
Your reality check on what crises are truly ahead of us it terms of environmental politics require a great deal of thought and energy to change our dominator stance.

Thank you for raising the bar and bringing to the discourse a cohesive and positive vision of the future.

I miss being with you for Samhain in Sebastapol.
There's not much of a pagan community here in Anchorage Alaska. But that is another conversation.

Blessings be,
Sandi

It's not like he's ever stood *for* anything in all his time here... any pretense of being 'liberated' from anything, of course, is borne out in what he says, particularly in other threads. If he doesn't admit to his Fundie prejudices, he gets to feel he can voice them without ever being called to account on his *own* backward beliefs.

It's been pretty darned obvious that CCNL's out to prove... something. Not sure what.

He's just like all the other fundies on this thread. Define another's religion by your *own* terms, set your own *standards* and then cry foul and ignore others when people who actually know what they're doing and talking about tell you *repeatedly* that it doesn't work that way.

I don't jump in because of CCNL. I jump in because there are other people out there who might read his crap and think that's what *we're* all about.

Nah, he can't, Arminius, but never assume an 'opponent' is playing to 'win.' Whatever his deal is about, it's not as presented. He wouldn't fixate on 'spells' and the like if that wasn't where he really thought the power was, even if he's been offered an alternative he won't publically-acknowledge.

Has anyone ever known the Confused Croissant to say something nice? I guess trolls can't do that.

See, what I think *you* want, CCNl, is to try and bully your way into some notion this is all claprap and you're really the total master of the universe, if vicariously.

If it gets you through the night, it's your choice, but I don't see that bringing your soul back.

You think you're *great* at finding 'flaws,' but you're so scared to explore you can't even go anywhere and look.

You can do that.

But it won't bring your soul back.

And there's no one you could hire to bring it back for you, if you don't make a home for such. You'll forever be trying to make someone do it for you.

And that ain't Wicca.

Nor your heritage.

But if you insist on learning the hard way, cross my palm with silver. We're open all night.

Eh, no, I'm not. I was commenting on your expectation someone would be.

Did you actually buy the 'spells,' though, or would that be too risky for you? What if they worked Frankly, a prime reason Wiccans *don't* actually do that is cause we take personal responsibility for our actions, and it *could* be someone like you.

Actually, when *I* have done magic for someone, it's not in the name of or practice of Wicca... (it's actually not really right, that way,) it's *not* contingent on payment, and when someone asks, I say, 'Pay what it's worth to you tomorrow.'

You claimed to be of Navajo extraction, CCNL. I'm sure the notion is familiar.

Someone real might just hang out a shingle, but more likely, someone hung out a shingle posing as something real. There are actually some innocuous lil things that I'm sure someone could do some trade in, but it's not our religion.

Whatever your point was about who's using negative politics when they have nothing of substance to offer.

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

And you were somehow embarrassed by our purchase of Wiccan spells from Tasha, the Wiccan Priestess of the Ill-Alli Temple in Lincoln Park, NJ who has been successfully casting Wiccan spells for herself and others for over 20 years??? No doubt she has cut into your business :))

"CCNL

"Buying Wiccan spells is somehow a form of derision???"

Claiming to have done so over the Internet and expecting someone else to be embarrassed is. :)

People will sell you a Guardian Angel fetish online, that doesn't mean that's what Christianity is about, either.

Buying Wiccan spells is somehow a form of derision???

CCNL,

Wiccans are big on "what goes around comes around". In fact, we triple the "comes around" part. You want kind and gentle? Then you have to be kind and gentle. You act with derision, you receive derision in return.

Thanks Starhawk,

So good to see your writings as part of a mainstream cultural forum. I am thinking of the progressive struggle here in Alaska to protect the environment. There are many who just see the wilderness as an "undeveloped resource."
It is difficult to resist the corporate mindset (and pocketbook) as industry vies for the opportunity to take advantage of the land.

This is still the dominator model, fear driven. "power-over vs power-with: as you aptly note in your earlier writings.

But there are many people trying to bring about larger reverence of the planet, and for those of us involved in goddess spirituality holding the earth sacred and our experience of living on her central to any spiritual practice, is such an important alternative to other traditions that honor ideas more than living.

What happened to all those kind and gentle Wiccan witches and witch doctors???

Observer,

You miss the point. 'Confused Croissant' is subtle. That delicate and yummy pastry is crescent shaped, and CCNL is virulently anti-Muslim.

Confused Croissant, Bagel, Donut, etc. Myself, I prefer something transparent: Moron/Putz

Hi, Priver/Mokey!

Sadly, I think that the only thing the Confused Croissant is serious about is stirring up contention. I read him as a troll.

Occasionally, he has bursts of reason, but they are rare. He is intelligent, but his mind seems frozen shut. So far, none have reached him, despite hands of friendship extended. I suppose we should keep trying.

MMA Arminius,

I'm actually the artist formerly known as priver. :)

I can't help but think CCNL's serious. *facepalm*

the most appropriate thing to say here is probably 'Caveat Emptor'. Still waiting on those 'special effects', i see, without taking any effort to go out and *get* what you want.

Typical. and about as far from *real* Wicca as you can possibly get.

My current source of Wiccan spells-

Background:
"My name is Tasha. I am a Wiccan Priestess of the Ill-Alli Temple in Lincoln Park, NJ. I have been successfully casting Wiccan spells for myself and others for over 20 years.

I personally guarantee all my spell casting services. All services are done in my Temple privately and there is never any need to visit me in person."

"Thank you for your interest in purchasing a spell casting service. Please keep in mind all payments are processed by our payment processor, Paypal. Paypal uses the most up to date software and SSL security protection. None of your information will ever be given out to anyone.

AS ALWAYS
All of our spell orders come with a 60 day 100% no questions asked money back guarantee. What do you have to lose? Why not try a spell? You could be passing up not only a spell, but a chance at your dreams."

Mokey,

Damn it, I can't remember who you are! Enlighten me, refresh my age-burdened brain cells.

The Latin term for the Croissant is 'testibus torpidis', i.e., 'numbnuts'.

I have to admit, this time CCNL had me laughing out loud. For being dumb enough to say that he 'bought Wiccan spells'. Bet he paid on credit for them, too.

He is as fluffy bunny as it gets.

Cute Cuddly Nadless Loser..

Ah, yes, the Confused Croissant,
Otherwise known as the Bewildered Bagel,
or else, thanks to Jihadist, Concy Pussycat,

Once again, oozing your bigotry and ignorance, you giggle with puerile joy by trying to insult my friends. Let me assure you, they are much too strong to be affected by your pathetic attempts.

Wiccan, in her commendable politeness, gives you too much credit. First, she calls you 'sir', which you do not deserve. 'Cretin' would have served better. Next, she calls you 'fluff bunny' (which got a good laugh here!), but fluff bunnies are cute, and you are not.

CCNL,

You, sir, are a fluff bunny.

Help!!!

I purchased ten Wiccan spells last week and none are working. Do I have to get my witch license first??

MMA, Athena!

Actually, my impression is that Spidey could actually benefit greatly from more social services than his Mom's basement provides.

But if he didn't have to rationalize whatever's going on there, he might actually have to face the responsibility of freedom, instead of screaming that his God ordained this state of affairs and will one day vindicate him with a whole lot of burnination.

Some of the chains we struggle against, Spidey, it's actually best to just drop. They'll fall off if you don't go to all that effort maintaining.

What I said about double-binds in another thread applies.

*You* aren't inherently crazy, you know. Nothing prevents you from doing goodness and kindness and all that other stuff you seem to feel gay people, Pagans, nonbelievers, and liberals prevent you from doing.

Comfy cage. But that will never be your home, fella.

Go be good to someone. Directly. No stuff about how being strident about enemies is really gonna make it OK.

Your Jesus don't like it, he can come talk to me. Meanwhile, someone pointed your heart at some nasty, nasty stuff. It won't help.

You like Jesus? OK. He said, 'Srop this noise and go do good for your neighbor.' And in those stories this wasn't through a GOP PAC, it was about actually dropping everything and going to encounter and help people, no conditions, no agendas, no nothing. Drop everything you thought was important and go meet people.

You can do this. If you choose.

Or you can take the other pill and wake up believing... Whatever you want to believe.

I know you hurt.

That's what my Lady said to me one day.

You wanna keep hurting, or you wanna go encounter why?

Pick a language, but *do it* It's *your* Savior who says 'ditch all this stuff. All of it.'

Before you speak in his name again, especially at us, I suggest you give it a try.

*My* faith says, I help wayward travellers.

So. If *you're* in the wrong, you needn't fear the likes of me. If I'm in the wrong, blame me. But meet your fellow humans.

It's about what you can give, not what you think to destroy. Take it from an old punker.

Oh, and "Joe the Plumber" doesn't pay his taxes anyway. There's a $1200 lien against him for back taxes.

FAIL.

You know, SpiderMEAN, we've heard a lot of hate speech from you, too. Mostly involving telling all of us that we're going to burn in He11 if we don't follow your particular brand of Christianity, and that you'll enjoy watching us. Are you one of the people yelling things at McCain and Palin's rallies? Because you sure sound like it on this board, when you're safe inside your parents' basement.

Pretty typical, Spidey. Calling it 'left wing hate' for people to call Republicans out on the tactics that *actually* result in people suggesting a Presidential candidate should be killed as a 'terrorist.'

McCain, himself has 'palled around' with a notorious domestic terrorist, convicted of such actions to try and fix an election... G. Gordon Liddy. Obama could have mentioned this, when he was being accused of something nefarious regarding Ayers, over their serving on a conservative-funded education organization's board...with plenty of Republicans.

People are tired of being lied to. Turns out, it seems, that 'Joe The Plumber' is actually the son of one of the Keating 5 S&L tycoons and isn't even, apparently, a registered voter. Maybe it's not his plumbing business he's worried about.

One thing's for sure, McCain has repeatedly insisted that Obama's health care plan would fine the guy... Even immediately after being corrected on the fact that small businesses would most certainly *not* pay such fines.

He's repeatedly lied about Obama's non-support of a law purporting to protect fetuses born-alive after abortion procedures, saying it's about being radically 'pro-abortion,' when the fact is that a law that mandated such care already existed and the new legislation was simply intended to push an extreme 'pro life' agenda.

If you watched the debate, you could easily see that it's *McCain* who always chooses a more polarizing and inflammatory view over reality.

People are tired of the lies, Spidey. Among them, lies about where the 'hate' comes from. Social conservatives seem to love to call it 'hate' when they aren't allowed to impose *their* hate on others.

There's certainly some anger out there, but this is about Roveian tactics of simply repeating lies and attacking one's opponent, even baselessly, where one's weak.

Accusing someone of election fraud when Republicans are doing their best to disenfranchise as many voters as possible... and on and on.

Thankfully, these tactics seem to be backfiring. The fear-and-smear tactics aren't attracting any new voters, ...the plan's probably really just to make the country as hard for a Democrat to govern as possible, when it's *definitely* time to take a different tack. A huge majority of America has known we've been headed in the wrong direction for years, now.

The politics of *division* are meant to try and scare Americans out of voting on this *extreme* dissatisfaction.

To his credit, McCain at least *says* we should take the high road, but these sentiments are not borne out in his actions, ...like not running a single non-negative ad... instead little things that ominously say 'Terrorist,' and claim, 'He'll raise your taxes' (when that's not the facts of the matter, either.

Given that the policies he's supported have been falling down around us, and military leaders like Powell and Petraeus think Obama has the better ideas on foreign policy, he's the one with the interest in making this whole thing be about blind emotion.

Apart from how his conduct and some of the decisions he's made even in the campaign show he's not a character we could get behind, (And I do regret I had to see this happen, ...I really did think he'd be the most respectable opponent of the lot) ...well, he and Palin are the ones who find themselves with the actual interest in stoking fear and hatred and division and deception.

Cause they just don't have the goods.

I wouldn't be *too* worried about 'liberals,' anyway, Spidey. The usual complaint is that we let ourselves get bullied around, too much. But at least you know Dems aren't as *vindictive and exclusionary* as the administration of the past few years has made us all too used to.

I observe with irony that Christian conservatives seem to live in constant fear that someone's going to treat them as they treat, and try to treat, others.

This is gonna be different in that way, as I'm sure the GOP will try to take advantage of.

If anyone should be aware of the politics of hate it's you yourselves at the Post. Your all so presuming, so guilty of the sin of Pride.

If McCain is still such a maverick, why did he allow Bush's Rovian thugs take over his campaign and used the same tired politics of fear, hatred and religious and racial intolerance?

Was this a condition of selling out to Cheney for the neocon vote? Did the same Rovanian force Dan Quayle redux Palin upon him to pander to intolerant white evangelicals?

If either or both are true, McCain has made some very poor judgments that question his ability to be President.

"The economic downturn is, ultimately, a case of reality puncturing an illusion. Nothing really real has changed in the last weeks--not our productive capacity, our ability to work, our skills and knowledge, nor our natural resources. They are all as intact as they were a month ago--what has burst are those illusory bubbles of arcane financial dealings that most of us don't even understand."

My friend and were saying exactly the same thing. If wall st. collapsed completely, wouldn't corn still grow? And what would happen if we decided to keep doing our jobs whether we got paid or not? People always like to say money makes the world go around but in truth it doesn't. It's you and I and everyone around us who get up to go to work, who make the deliveries, who run the machines, who teach the kids, who sew the clothes- when we stop, then the world stops.

Should I say more? Arminius is exhibit A. Go Arminius, kill McCain.

What does Starhawk think about the liberal hate speech that is on every blog at the Post.

Take a peek at the comments under the story about Cheney's heart trouble and tell us more about how conservatives are hateful.

The hypocrisy of liberals is mind boggling.

I managed about 15 minutes of the debate. Found myself screaming at McWorse, who was doing nothing but spewing lies and garbage. Back to the ball game.

What an opportunity! The UFO crowd was right, they've landed! Spidey obviously comes from another planet, since he has not read the blogs here, nor heard the violent screams of hatred and death from the republican rallies. He should be captured at once and questioned. Maybe even dissected.

"Politics of hate"? YES, I've been seeing that in blogs coming from liberal Democrats. It's always that way that the word HATE can be equated to the LEFTIST CROWD.