A Sacred Choice and a Civil Right

Merry Meet and Blessed Be to all,

I love your article Starhawk and I could not have put it better myself.
The whole "same-sex marriage fight" hits somewhat close to home for me since I have a sister that is a lesbian.
I think that it's horrible that she (and all gay and lesbian couples) are not afforded the same rights as my husband and I.
Whether or not Homosexuality/Lesbianism is right or wrong and whether or not they should be allowed to marry is solely a religious issue and should have never been a civil issue.

Oh, and who's throwing this party????Can I come???I'll bring a huge pot of home-made Cincinnati style chili and some Warsteiner beer.

Heh, RevMike...

Strange idea of an afterlife, some folks have. I certainly never could see the 'Paradise' in permanent isolation from everyone else. Seems a very sad way to be.

I've always liked to joke that if I ended up meeting St. Peter, he'd be like, "No jokes, this time, Irish." :)

*really posting to wish Terra and anyone else going, a great PSG.* :)

This thread reminds me of a joke I heard once:

A Pagan dies and is shocked to find himself in front of the pearly gates. He approaches St Peter and explains that there must be some mistake. St Peter says, "Oh no- we're all inclusive here! Let me give you the tour." They walk past a towering mosque, a giant powwow in full swing, and a beautiful garden filled with Buddhist monks. Finally, they come to a lush valley, filled with happy Pagans feasting and dancing around maypoles and beneath towering stone circles. Just then the Pagan notices a nearby parking lot filled with people weeping, pounding their fists on the asphault and tearing out clumps of their own hair. St Peter sees him looking at the miserable people and explains, "Oh, those are the Christians- We forgot to tell them they had to share"

Rattling the same sabre the Crusaders unsheathed in olden times
CONCERNED THE CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED?

We have the bulk of the world's nuclear weapons.

I don't want to hear about Violent Islam.

It's the far greater terror of Violent America that scares me.

Like Pogo sez: "We have met the ememy and he is us."

You know, first your own beam, then sombody else's mote?

Better still, just work on your own beam,

Jesus would like that much better, honest.

Blessed Be,
Robin

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

First, Paganism is followed by so few and is so varied, it does not fit on anyone's radar screen as being dangerous unlike Islam.

To wit:

O Islam, Islam, violent Islam,
Moha, illiterate and hallucinating,
O Islam, Islam, violent Islam,
Moha greed and lustful, womanizing,
Was he too,

O Islam, O Islam, violent Islam,
Moha, warmongering and hateful,
Was he too,

O Islam, O Islam, violent Islam,
Sunnis of hate, Shiites of late,
Even Pretty Wingie Thingies cannot
Save us from Islam's hate.

Save us from these Islamic FEMs,
Flaws, Errors, Muck and Stench,
They ooze from the rocks of earth,
Like worms of wrench and death.

Born, Bred, and Brainwashed too,
Whatever, whatever to do?
Truth, Truth, History and Truth,
Let it Ring True, Freedom, Freedom
Freedom at Last and much left to do!!!

Nothing is forgotten!!!! and you can breathe easier since that is the case.

Paganplace,

I had to look up 'Dinah'. Surprising! Ya learn sumpin every day.

There is Irish in me, too, but more Scot than Irish.

Agreed that CCNL is struggling with something. But if he is to work his way out of it, he's gotta get off his high horse and talk, discuss, even argue, but not preach the same stuff over and over again. He is in the dead end of a maze, but unaware of it. If he wants to get anywhere, he's got to reach out, and stop slapping away hands that are reaching to him.

Arminius

"Hi, Paganplace!

That was a subtle, profound, and lovely post. But I fear it was wasted on CCNL. I have put him in my 'Hopeless and Lost' file. "

Whhhst! One thing about even the best among Christians, someone taught you Hope was finite and conditional, and being 'lost' infinite. This man don't much like 'Angels' but he's obviously still living on the edge of some 'pit' or other.

Fearfully, and in a big way, so.

Yeah, he's copped to some profession of Dineh ancestry, when it suits. I tend to believe it, cause they tend to be just such a grim lot, and enforcing Christianity upon them was hardly kind.

Plausible he's telling the truth on that bit of ancestry, clearly indoctinated in just the way 'missionaries' would, ... just terrified of the implications he was led wrong once, even if it means obsessively trying to 'deflaw' the *world* rather than go home.

I'm Irish. We know of these things.

Still. I'm told *his* ancestors, (who knew four genders, at least) asked better for him than *my* ancestors were given.

Wakey, wakey, 'CCNL,' sorry bout the lack of 'wingeyness,' but you just gotta focus here. Sorry it hurts. You have no idea what it took to get here. This is what you get. Materialistic as you please. Someone's typing here.

Read your stuff back to yourself and tell me if that's what you wanna be.

Cause if the world is as cold as you squall about 'proving' it is, that's all you get.

Lemme tell you, you can 'deflaw' all the Christians and Muslims and Pagans you like, there's no brownie points to be had from nowhere.

Breathe. Remember. Capiche?

Doesn't matter if you were lying, btw, CCNL.

As we bind, so are we bound.

You said it, and no pin in a poppet could be so powerful as that.

Nothing's forgotten.

Hi, Paganplace!

That was a subtle, profound, and lovely post. But I fear it was wasted on CCNL. I have put him in my 'Hopeless and Lost' file. He is one of those sad people who must find enemies to prop up his own sagging self-image, and target scapegoats to blame for his own failures. He will not talk, he will not discuss, he will not learn. All he wants to do is spew weird dogma over and over, try to smite imagined enemies, and strut around feeling self-important.

Arminius

I told you, if you recall, CCNL, that I would pay you a certain amount of attention.

If you were 'obfuscating' or something, I told you then, it was all on you.

This is pretty much the Pagan way. Maybe a little-less-grimly 'flawed' than what said heritage seems to mean to you.

No less serious.

Or real.

Don't rely on 'reason,' you're really not so good at it.

Would you like a song?

"Look out of any window
any morning, any evening, any day
Maybe the sun is shining
birds are winging or
rain is falling from a heavy sky -
What do you want me to do,
to do for you to see you through?
this is all a dream we dreamed
one afternoon long ago
Walk out of any doorway
feel your way, feel your way
like the day before
Maybe you'll find direction
around some corner
where it's been waiting to meet you -
What do you want me to do,
to watch for you while you're sleeping?
Well please don't be surprised
when you find me dreaming too

Look into any eyes
you find by you, you can see
clear through to another day
I know it's been seen before
through other eyes on other days
while going home --
What do you want me to do,
to do for you to see you through?
It's all a dream we dreamed
one afternoon long ago

Walk into splintered sunlight
Inch your way through dead dreams
to another land
Maybe you're tired and broken
Your tongue is twisted
with words half spoken
and thoughts unclear
What do you want me to do
to do for you to see you through
A box of rain will ease the pain
and love will see you through

Walk into splintered sunlight
Inch your way through dead dreams
to another land
Maybe you're tired and broken
Your tongue is twisted
with words half spoken
and thoughts unclear
What do you want me to do
to do for you to see you through
A box of rain will ease the pain
and love will see you through

Just a box of rain -
wind and water -
Believe it if you need it,
if you don't just pass it on
Sun and shower -
Wind and rain -
in and out the window
like a moth before a flame

It's just a box of rain
I don't know who put it there
Believe it if you need it
or leave it if you dare
But it's just a box of rain
or a ribbon for your hair
Such a long long time to be gone
and a short time to be there..."

Nothing's forgotten, CCNL. Nothing.

Ease up.

Yes, I'm aware how different African and Afro-Carribean traditions are to European Paganism, cause rather than thinking Wikipedia constitutes things you can plug into some sort of OCD verbal *equation,* CCNL, I've *met and worked with and learned from these folks.*

They are different from us.

Just because we are different doesn't mean we must attack each other.

Seems something your 'libreated Christian' fear of your own professed Dineh heritage hasn't seemed to be able to absorb, in your quest for 'absolutes' you can control, CCNL.

You're being all about what was translated to me as 'Earth-man,' rather than, what the Dineh say with great weight and moment,

"Human being."

If you weren't lying and obfuscating when you claimed such lineage, CCNL, one of these days, you will have to trust someone. Or, yourself.

What are you doing out here among these shdows, CCNL, 'Proving' something? You should know by now nothing is proven by this.

'One-spirit' looking for something else or not.

Whatever they taught you. You won't listen to me, you claim you won't listen to *either* religion, ...who do you listen to?

Yourself?

What does he say?

What would you like, son?

What can we do for you?

More on Paganism and Voodoo can be found at:

VOODOO & AFRO-CARIBBEAN PAGANISM

This book is available RIGHT NOW to order (amazon.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Few religions are as misunderstand as Afro-Caribbean traditions like Voodoo, Yoruba, Candomble, Shango, Santeria, and Obeah. Even the most wide-ranging books about Paganism rarely include a discussion of the African Earth Religions which play such an important part of our lives.

On this, though:

"A Crow traditionalist says, "We don’t waste people the way white society does. Every person has their gift ""

Don't *that* have the ring of truth, though? Gods.

That talk isn't welcome, CCNL.

It's 'flawed' in that voodoo is different from Paganism, as you've been told repeatedly. Enough.

And, indeed, Terra. The Two-spirits designation, I understand, generally refers to those who we'd call transgendered, at least in some tribes. The distinctions were different than we might tend to draw, in terms of categorizing people.

Definitely a whole different attitude, though. Homosexuality per se seems to have been generally not thought of as too big a deal in man places, though European colonists just tended to consider it was all 'gay' and gave Native American Two-spirits the name 'Berdache,' apparently referring to Turkish boy prostitutes. (Gods, what nice folks.)

Ancient Pagan societies often had a tendency to place transgendered folks in the precincts of the sacred... many temples had transgendered clergy, something a good number of modern Goddess-loving transpeople have picked up on.

This sort of thing, of course, is often only used by Christians as 'evidence' how 'sinful' these societies were, but that's obviously the bias of a culture that was doing its best to maintain a separate identity from the neighbors, (ie, Jewish culture considered cross-dressing ritually-unclean cause their Pagan neighbors did it, like so many other things. )

But it goes to show how very different things can be.

I have read that in the old days it was the gay person that was the Medicine Man or Wise Woman...they were the ones thought to be closer to the gods. They were more balanced;they were called the Two Spirit person.

Given the choice between discarding or honoring a person, who did not fit neatly into rigid gender compartments, many Native American groups chose to find a productive and venerated place for those we call gay. A Crow traditionalist says, "We don’t waste people the way white society does. Every person has their gift According to the Mohave creation story, "Ever since the world began, there have been transvestites, and from the beginning of the world, it was meant that there should be homosexuals.

As a Pagan I am confused by the idea that someone's sexuality can be ordered. Can I help who I love? I am wired by the Gods in a certain way...and that is how I react. How exactly can the gay folks down the street..(if there are some) have a thing to do with my marriage? But what can affect me is that my friends can be seperated from the rest of society in the natural human need for love, family and acceptance from society.

terra

Information for pinning to your refrigerators:

The "Femsy" (flaws, errors, muck, stench and yuck) of Islam:

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty, (gay?) Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3 That Shiites are less than human or Sunnis are less than human depending on what Islamic cult you belong to.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

I hear my Voodoo dolls are available on e-Bay so enjoy.

Yes, though, many ancient and tribal societies had places for LBGT folk, instead of trying to insist there are only two and wondering why so many don't fit in. :)

Anonymous:
**To get back on topic, I read somewhere that the Hopi(?) recognize four genders - male, female, male in female body, female in male body. So, I guess these "primitive" people were more enlightened than we thought.**

That happens a lot. I'n going to show my dork face now and quote a favorite line from a Star Trek novel:
"Never confuse primitive with stupid."

Ah, well, 'Lady's peace,'

That's a strong way of saying, take that fight outside, btw, J. No, CCNL is certainly not the Lady.

We're just not feeding the troll today, seems to be the thing. This isn't exactly a controversial issue for Pagans, in general, but I think we're all a little tired of it turning into imaginary fights about someone else's religion.

Kind of seems to be the point, right now. If I don't much misread things.

"What, CCNL, afraid of getting deflated? :)"

Yeah, it'll pop that balloon full of hot air on his neck.

To get back on topic, I read somewhere that the Hopi(?) recognize four genders - male, female, male in female body, female in male body. So, I guess these "primitive" people were more enlightened than we thought.

Hello Paganplace :)

I guess everyone is now already afraid CCNL will post multiple posts in churlish reaction to being pricked and pinned and what not.

Where did Concy get the notion that only the CCNL is entitled to thumping anyone unhindered, unhampered and unanswered?

Okay. I'll leave this thread in peace whatever the pricked pussycat's reaction is, as you so wish. But CCNL is no lady. So, no Lady's peace from the CCNL.

Best regards
"J"

Whhhhst! No one gets pinned or pricked here. Lady's peace on this thread. :)

Thanks, though, J.

CCNL : Just don't put a pin in me!!!

Uhhhh....All it takes is only a pin, one pin? Touchy-feely? Prickly? Testy? Can dish it out but can't take it?

Come to mama. Leave Paganplace and Arminius alone. Prick all the pins you want with me, on me, to me and what have you.

What did the Jesus Seminarians said about gays, gay sex and gay marraiges?

What's that? Oh, you've googled and can't find what they said and have to put your own thoughts on it!

That's okay. No one is flawless. Not even the pussycat.

"But we're not animals!!!" Ah, we can act like one though. We can be beastly towards others, including towards Arminius and Paganplace.

Come, prick pins in me. Give all the pinpricks you want on anything, everything, nothing. Or thumpings if you like and must.

What, CCNL, afraid of getting deflated? :)

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

Just don't put a pin in me!!!

Oof, 'Polymorphous perversity.' ...Shows Freud's cultural bias right there, or, maybe more tellingly, a translator's. :)

I don't think parthenogenesis has a whole lot to do with this debate, either, Robin. But be that as it may, I don't know why the post seems to have gone away.

We all throw the developmental dice, by the time we're born, it seems One wonders why so many of the Christian type support candidates who aren't concerned with all the endocrine disruptors our environment is getting loaded with, if they don't like LBGT people so much.

Of course the mechanism is natural, but it's not difficult to trigger, it seems we've found, ...we can make queer lab animals pretty easily with some of the stuff the corporations figure is OK to dump in the water...

Could be that means there's going to be a lot more 'queer energy' out there. Statistically-speaking.

More than that, well, these are natural variations in humanity. We're going to be needing all the human energy and diversity we can get in coming times. Where 'Concerned Christian' and his like show 'flawed' reasoning is in the idea that they can talk reality away. Or scapegoat someone for ...whatever his issue is.

Even the idea that there is 'one right point of view' which should spend its energy trying to eliminate all others, would seem to be a problem, here, for some.

Don't know why my attempt to put this over previously---did "parthogenisis" trip the filter?---fail to post, but polymorphous perversity is bound up in nature and found just about everywhere. Whoever's "Master Plan" it might be, Queer energy is an essential part of the plan, a natural aspect of the world as it really is.

Get used to it.

How... unliberated, of you, CCNL. Yap,yap, yap.

Gods, man. You're not even on topic.

Arminius, Arminius, Arminius,

How unChristian of you!! Or is how unatheistic of you?? Or is it so how Henry VIII of you???

"No one is safe until Arminius is deflawed!!!!"

"Blah, blah, blah..."

*laugh!* I like how this thread seems to be turning into an exercise in 'What if they had a culture war and nobody came.' :)

Pass the gumbo. :)

You know, they landed a probe on Mars' polar ice, ...imagine what people could be doing instead of picking on queer folks. :)

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and wh*remongers, and SORCERERS, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8)

Blah, blah, blah...

CCNL,

Please see a doctor. You obviously have a serious case of cranio-rectal syndrome.

Arminius, Arminius, Arminius,

Again, what bothers you? Not agreeing with what many NT exegetes have concluded about the historic Jesus? What is being taught is some large Catholic university theology classes? The "FEMSY" (flaws, errors, muck, stench and yuck) of Islam and/or Christianity? Limbo? Original sin? Profits instead of prophecies? Pretty wingie, talking, flying, fictional thingies? The demons of the demented? Being Born, Bred, and Brainwashed in Henry VIII's religion?

O Islam, Islam, violent Islam,
Moha, illiterate and hallucinating,
O Islam, Islam, violent Islam,
Moha greed and lustful, womanizing,
Was he too,

O Islam, O Islam, violent Islam,
Moha, warmongering and hateful,
Was he too,

O Islam, O Islam, violent Islam,
Sunnis of hate, Shiites of late,
Even Pretty Wingie Thingies cannot
Save us from Islam's hate.

Save us from these Islamic FEMs,
Flaws, Errors, Muck and Stench,
They ooze from the rocks of earth,
Like worms of wrench and death.

Born, Bred, and Brainwashed too,
Whatever, whatever to do?
Truth, Truth, History and Truth,
Let it Ring True, Freedom, Freedom
Freedom at Last and much left to do!!!

Paganplace,
Seems to me those who raise the spector of hell and damnation to those who think differently are in doubt of their own faith. They make their god a petty and small thing.

My daughter is getting ready to move back north. She was worried about leaving her church (yes she is Christian.) She is a liberal Christian so I checked out some churches in the area that she will be moving to...and found one that says...God is still speaking. They're a fellowship who welcomes gays and all others...they accept gay and lesbian pastors...their god is a mighty god...a loving god, a god who works wonders in people's hearts.

My daughter contacted this church and they are waiting to welcome her.

No hell or damnation...they believe God is still working, perfecting and speaking. This is the attitude of the gods I believe in. They are still at work, creating, changeing and perfecting.

You whose God is unchangeing,listen up...nothing is done yet, we are still within the act of creation. Don't muddy up our floors with your granite dust...

terra

MMA, Terra!

One wonders why Anonymous there presumes we fit any of those accusations he makes, hiding behind his Bible, in the first place. Or how that pertains to the topic. Seems like he's the fearful one, to me.

Anyway, Bible don't mean much, here. You'll have to try and make a point some other way, if that's what you were trying to do.

Anonymous, take a look at this and reconsider. Although this is a Sufi prayer, and I am Christian, I say it often.

Oh God!
If I worship thee in fear of hell
burn me in hell
If I worship thee in hope of paradise
exclude me from paradise
But if I worship thee for Thine own sake
withold not Thine everlasting beauty.
- Rabia Al Adawiya, a Sufi

Anonymous, I think it's pretty abominable to worship a being you think is going to horribly punish most of the world's population simply for following a different spiritual path, one that feels as right to them as yours does to you.

Starhawk's words are beautiful. The contrast between hers and yours, Anonymous, in my experience, is one reason acceptable of and support for marriage equality is growing.

Anonymous:
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and wh*remongers, and SORCERERS, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's your point? We don't believe in your hell.

And we're legally allowed to marry.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and wh*remongers, and SORCERERS, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8)

Blessed Be! Merry Meet and Goddess keep us Free!
Hiya all my friends...

I have been on the political blogs raiseing Pan...

As always Starhawk says it all best...I so miss her when she is gone.

My best friend who is also High Priest to our group is Gay. My greatest wish is for him to find the One and to be able to be happily married. He is a good person, kind and has much to give, but in Louisiana he can not legally have what anyone else can have. He is also black...his grand mother picked cotton, her mother was a slave and it was against the law for her to learn to read.

My dear friend can not legally be bound with his love...but I can handfast them. So what stops them from having everything I and my husband have is law. Just like his greatgrandmother could not attend school, or his grandmother could not sit in the front of the bus..it is a matter of bigotry and injustice.

To me justice and equality does not stop at color or religion...but continues in our relationships. The same as not that long ago blacks and whites could not marry. That law died,bigotry can not survive. Will not survive.Thank the Gods.

It is up to us, one mind at a time, one act of bravery at a time. I read the speech that Bobby Kennedy gave to the the youth of South Africa at their Affirmation Day in 1966.
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/ekennedytributetorfk.html

We have a choice of the kind of world we want. Ted Kennedy gave that speech as part of his brother's eluigy...hate killed Bobby, hate and bigotry killed MLK and JFK...and Matthew Shephard. Enough.

terra

Paganplace,

Alas! None of that blessed black brew from Ireland on hand. I've opened a much inferior American type.

Agreed, the best way to deal with CCNL, Spidey, and such is to ignore them. They do not discuss, they just keep on slinging BS.

Arminius

Oh, yeah, we've dealt with him before. He decided Pagans were secretly Islamic terrorists cause we wouldn't join in his bigotry, some time ago. It was quite a scene.

*popping the happy black can* Join in, Arminius. Suppose we can just declare this thread Pagan space and give blank looks to the usual Christian scripture arguments.*

Theologically, this one's usually pretty simple for Pagans. Sometimes it's astounding how much energy folks throw at this and claim it constitutes 'goodness.'

Hi, Lep,

Looking forward to the gumbo and Guinness, if I can ever get there. The Guinness will be on me.

A word about CCNL. On another blog here, poor Confused was posting his usual bigotry, and someone asked him a question. Immediately, three posts appeared by three different people begging everyone not to encourage CCNL because he would immediately spam with long, bigoted posts. Which, of course, he did. Brace yourself!

Arminius

CCNL:

Straight people have been known to abuse the gift of sex, but it doesn't stop them from marrying, even if they have an STD.
I don't know about other states, but mine no longer even requires pre-marital blood tests.

The only requirements here are:
Original or certified copy of birth certificate.
Original or certified copy of divorce decree if your divorce was finalized within the last three years. If you were divorced over three years ago, you don't have to provide any documentation of it.
Picture ID.
Exact cash.

Ah, I think I get it on the 'similar names' thing, Arminius, maybe someone was intending to *address* you, and got that in the wrong spot. :)

Arminius:
Hi, Wiccan,

I think I got you mixed up with Lep, my bad! I did know about Terra. This is making me very hungry....

-------------------------------------------------
That's ok - you know all us Pagans look alike ;p...and Terra lives in the next parish (county to everyone else) over from me. And the offer of gumbo and Guinness is good any time your travels take you my direction.

*eyebrow raise.*

What's up, there, Arminius? :)

Note to all: Arminus is not me. I don't object to his choice of handle or his post, but it could cause confusion.

Arminius

Thanks for your response. Ironically, I grew up Episcopalian. My parents are on either side of the Gay Bishop/Marriage issue. I think that it's funny that a couple can be married for 44 years and be so politically different. Mom=Liberal, Dad=Conservative.

I guess love knows no politics and no gender.

If you like my commentary check me out on YouTube.

I wholeheartedly agree with this post. Love and therefore marriage should not be governed by a political or religious body. This issue isn't about which God and/or Goddess you worship or which politician is in office.

Love and marriage are purely mundane issues and should be dealt with in a mundane way.

"Dearly beloved, we stand here before our friends and family to declare our love and desire for a loving union."

I am not gay or lesbian, but I reject the government's and church's demand to regulate my desire to commit to a loving relationship to the man in my life until everyone has the right to legally be committed if they so wish.

Uh, oh, the party's moved to the front page. In come the homophobes. :)

Funny how some will simultaneously claim there's no such *thing* as homophobia, yet also rely on some feeling they might call 'yucky factor.'

'-phobia' can also refer to an irrational fear or aversion, CCNL.

Like, claiming people are inherently more diseased than others, or that it's right to oppress them, or in fact, that there's a conspiracy to oppress *you* cause people stand up for their own rights against your attacks on them.

Funny how you suddenly rely on the books with the 'pretty wingie talking thingies' in them when you don't like whoever they target.

There's no such conflict, here. Or in fact, 'icky factor.' Someone *taught* you that.

Sex is a great gift from God, the gods and/or Mom Nature. It is the improper use of said gift that results in part of the "yucky factor", i.e STDs to include AIDS/HIV and fetal transfer that concerns everyone, Abrahamics, Atheists and et al.

Woohoo! I'll bring some Maryland crabs (with Old Bay, naturally) to this Pagan Party!

I dont believe I could have said it better myself. Once again Starhawk's silver tongue shines through in her words.

DEVIANCE is not a RIGHT, except to be judged as such. Period.

Hi, Wiccan,

I think I got you mixed up with Lep, my bad! I did know about Terra. This is making me very hungry....

Arminius

Google to go:

epistle.us/hbarticles/neareast.html

Excerpt:

" First, homosexuality in many forms pervaded the ancient Near East, and with more openness beyond Egypt. As long as persons got married and had families, homoerotic activity was generally accepted as part and parcel of life. Still, there was a certain stigma attached to a man who took the passive, womanly role in a sexual relationship.

Recently:

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0377/is_n112/ai_14466341/pg_4:

Excerpt:
Edward Westermark observed that "it is a common belief among the Arabic-speaking mountaineers of Northern Morocco that a boy cannot learn the Koran well unless a scribe commits pederasty with him. So also an apprentice is supposed to learn his trade by having intercourse with his master."(9)

And these comments by the author of the article: findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0377/is_n112/ai_14466341/pg_4:

“The Hebrew Bible, in particular the Torah (the first five books of the Bible), has done more to civilize the world than any other book or idea in history. It is the Hebrew Bible that gave humanity such ideas as a universal, moral, loving God; ethical obligations to this God; the need for history to move forward to moral and spiritual redemption; the belief that history has meaning; and the notion that human freedom and social justice are the divinely desired states for all people. It gave the world the Ten Commandments and ethical monotheism.

See the added Torah qualifications by the author, Dennis Prager

And from:

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0377/is_n112/ai_14466341/pg_14

“Just as we owe homosexuals humane, decent, and respectful conduct, homosexuals owe the same to the rest of us. Homosexuals' use of the term "homophobic," however, violates this rule as much as heterosexuals' use of the term "f t" does.”

When the term "homophobic" is used to describe anyone who believes that heterosexuality should remain Western society's ideal, it is quite simply a contemporary form of McCarthyism. In fact, it is more insidious than the late senator's use of "communist." For one thing, there was and is such a thing as a communist. But "homophobia" masquerades as a scientific description of a phobia that does not exist in any medical list of phobias.”

MMA! Is the party still going on? Rozin up that bow and fetch me my clogs!

Arminius, Lady Terra is the one to go to for gumbo. Mom and Dad came down from the Blue Ridge Mountains and settled in Northern Virginia (back when it was nothing but one courthouse and a bunch of dairy farms). Now if you want some fried chicken with collard greens and biscuits I'm your girl. My family is blessed with culinary artists of all cuisines, and it is a well-know maxim to pack your "fat cloths" for the family reunions.

Thank you for stating my feelings so eloquently.

Dear Starhawk,
". . . civil rights belong to everyone, not just those groups whose behavior meets popular approval."

No way I could have said it better.

Blessed Be,
Robin

Eh, I've been in sticky situations before, this is just abstractly-potentially-sticky. Hopefully I will feel better when we meet our neighbors.

This little adventure would not be my first choice. But we don't really have one. Unless I were to convince sweetie we should stay where we are and like do piecework or something. :)

Paganplace,

Well, damn. I wish I could help. This place is not that bad. Yes, I say that as a straight Christian, so I cannot truly appreciate your position in its stark reality. I am in something of a minority, though, being a liberal in the most red county in a very red state. I don't get hassled about it though, and that is the issue.

Let's keep in touch about this.

Arminius

Yeah, it ought to be all right, Arminius. 'Brave or stupid' doesn't mean 'Manifestly insane.'

If it were that bad, well.

Still. Belly o' the beast, in many ways.

Paganplace,

Suggestion for moving south: big city. Atlanta is very accepting, as a rule. If you are in the boonies, ya gotta be real quiet. But I know that you can be careful. I wish you the absolute best.

Speaking of the best, and of food, Southern fried chicken IS the best!

Arminius

Yaknow, Arminius? Basic rule of magical safety: don't stand next to the one calling down natural disasters on a perceived 'enemy.'

Threefold return, and all.

On some level I give it a month before I'm pulling some sot who hates my guts out of some kind of wreckage. But there'll be good gumbo. :)

Haha! Really? I thought Wiccan was up by you. But I'm not so good at keeping track of these things.

Then again, I'm a queer Pagan moving to the deep South in 2008. I'm either very brave, very stupid, or in love or something. :)

Paganplace,

If you are in New England, then you know how to make the TRUE kind of clam chowder. New Yorkers are demented about that fine dish.

Guinness always.

Hi, Paganplace!

Yes, Terra would be a great source for the wonderful food of that region. But Wiccan lives there as well. Maybe we could arrange a contest! Wow!

Arminius

Ah, Arminius, I think Terra's the one to go to for *real* gumbo, but I've been known to make a new Englander's best attempt once in a while. Bring on the Guinness. :)

This is all very fascinating.

With apologies to friend Paganplace, pasta does not tempt me. But if Wiccan makes gumbo, I'll be there with Guinness.

Arminius

*tapping in rhythm on pasta pot.*

"My coworker told me later that she'd never heard or thought about that before. I wondered what planet SHE was from.*

Hey, there's more two-legs alive now than the summation of all two legs that ever lived before. Everyone's gotta be from somewhere. :)

mmm. nummies. I'm up for pasta any day. :)

*finds rhythm on Buffalo drum*

*Sings* We come from the fire, living in the fire.
Go back to the fire, turn the world around.

Those poor four leggeds. Sometimes I get the feeling they look at us and want to shake us and remind us that no matter what we think, we're really NOT top of the food chain.

We just had a training at my office on cultural diversity and the trainer talked about there being only one race: human. My coworker told me later that she'd never heard or thought about that before. I wondered what planet SHE was from.

I always wonder why some folks have to take things SO seriously about issues like this when just a little spiral dancing or good pasta al cream of chicken might help their knickers to untwist. :)

Time to turn the Wheel of the Year!

*dancedance* Imaginary food, we shall have!

My dear one was just smiling at me about the silly little songs I sing while cooking our dinner, even in what are at the moment, 'basic conditions,' but apparently in the rest of the spiritual life of America, they're having trouble seeing the difference between that and carnal relations with various four-legs.

*sparking up the camp stove.*

Pasta Al Cream Of Chicken! With rosemary and garlic. :)

Lepi,

You should be getting it soon. I haven't seen a lot of things like it although there are variations all over the place. I'd love to see any needlework that came out of my pent's design if you get it finished. :)

MMA Paganplace! I'd love a May gathering. I'll bring the music if someone can bring the food. :)

Break out the 'camping velvet!' While we've got fresh air, let's have an On Faith May gathering! :)

Ah... Starhawk! A breath of fresh air and common sense in this whole debate! Blessed be!

It's actually not an uncommon motif, Lepi. Shouldn't be hard to find an image of it online.

My tastes in such things run to the small&simple, but I see them around pretty often. :)

PriveR:

Could you email me a pic of your pent? It sounds like something I might want to turn into a piece of needlework...

*wandering by,* Well, MMA, all. :)

Issue's pretty darn simple over here, I'd say. :)

Merry meet, all!

I have yet to see why a homosexual couple's commitment to each other should not receive the same recognition, respect, and legal standing as that of a heterosexual couple.

The same-sex couples I know do the same things my husband and I do - We pay bills and taxes; they pay bills and taxes. We take care of each other when illness strikes; they take care of each other when illness strikes. We own property together; they own property together. We took care of my daughter until she was grown; they take care of their children until they are grown. We spend time together doing things we enjoy; they spend time together doing things they enjoy. We sometimes express our love for each other sexually; they sometimes express their love for ech other sexually.
Isn't that what a marriage is supposed to be?

And if marriage is a civil right, as SCOTUS found it to be in Loving v Virginis, then it cannot be any more denied to a couple based on their complement of genitalia than it can by their skin pigmentation.

Bored me? nope, not at all. You'll have to do better than that to bore me. ;)

I'm fascinated by things like lineage. I don't know yet where my Italian grandparents came from, so there *might* be a touch of Celt in there somewhere.
But even if not, there is always a part of me that feels such a connection to the teachings of the Celts- especially the emphasis on individuation of the spirit has a lot of wisdom that folks like myself today in the US can still benefit from.

Hi again, Priver,

My ancestry is entirely British, except from Wales. Mother's side, English. But my father was born in Northern Ireland, and his ancestor came there from Scotland in 1630. Note that my last name is Scott, so I am not highland, nor even lowland, I am a Border Scot, the proud descendant of horse thieves and cattle rustlers! I'm not kidding. So I am a mix of mainly Celtic and Anglo-Saxon, with a touch of Norman and the occasional invading Viking. Quite a mongrel mix, huh?

Anyway I acquired a love of things Celtic, including all the culture, art, and music. For music, read bagpipes. I have a deep interest in calligraphy, hence the knotwork. If I ever win the lottery, my first stop is Dublin, to see the real Book of Kells, the finest work of calligraphy in the world.

Yikes, I hope I haven't bored you!

Arminius

Ah, lucky Arminius!

I'm not so lucky to be ancestrally Celtic, at least as far as I know. Polish, Russian Jewish on the Matrilineal side and straight off the boat Italian on the other- but I think there is so much of who I am that is Celtic nonetheless. :)

My path follows a fairly Celtic, Bardic, Wiccan line- lots of twists, turns, and the deeper I go the more I find myself back to where I was as a child.
I think that's why I like the knotwork so much. It never ends.. kinda like the journey. :)

Whatever it is that leads to the destruction of our country or planet, it's not going to be gay people, that's for sure.

I've been reading too, that even some churches have taken pains to finally include gay people as part of 'god's children'. Like the Manifesto (assuming the evangelicals put their actions where there words are- and I'm prepared to give the benefit of the doubt on that one for now until I see otherwise) this can really prove to be a good thing.

Priver, Well Met!

I, having a bunch of Celtic ancestry, would prefer the woven knot any day of the week. Interesting to know, and thank you, about the 5 pointed star.

The whole anti-gay thing is utterly stupid. Hell, I am 65 years old, liberal as can be. I am Episcopal, and we have a gay bishop. No problem for me. Right wingers, go figure, and stop trying to suppress the gays into second-class citizenship.

Arminius

MMA Arminius!

Always good to see friends again. :)

You mentioned the elements- for us, that's the meaning of the Pentacle that is our symbol- point up, of course. four points for the four elements and the point on top being Spirit over everything.

My personal one has a woven knot around the star instead of a circle because for me, Spirit/Divinity is woven inextricably into the elements, Nature and us by extension.

As far as the article goes,

I never understood the whole homophobia thing. If someone else being happily married affects my marriage, that says more about me than it does them.

Talking with someone earlier this week about this, they said that the 'trouble with gays is promiscuity'. The thing is, the people wanting to be married are willing to tell the world that this person is the one they're willing to give up all others for.. yet some people won't let them do that either. It is a civil rights issue, at least as far as the state is concerned. Hopefully people are seeing that.

Religions have the right to tell people whatever they want.. and people have the right to not go back if they don't like what they hear.

Good to see you back, Starhawk, in fine form as always.

Hello, BlueFireWitch:

I have not seen you here on Starhawk's blogs before. I am Christian, liberal, and have made good acquaintance with many of the Pagans/Wiccans here. We share a common love, the love of Creation. I find these new web friends, and their religion, endlessly fascinating and hugely decent and compassionate.

Now then, on to the elements, earth, air, fire, and water. I have no use for astrology or numerology, but the use of the four elements is a useful gateway to looking at creation. I have a Tarot deck - I am Wands - but have not picked it up in a long time. I found it intriguing because of the quotation, which, alas!, I can't remember where it came from - "A philosophical slide rule on which you can compose your own metaphysical equations". In other words, a doorway to somewhere else.

Oh, well, enough rambling.

Arminius

As a Wiccan and a strong supporter of equal rights, I'm saddedned that people actually have to make a big deal about Gay Marriage. It should just be a given. It shouldn't even be called gay marriage, just marriage. If consenting adults want to unite themselves in a civil/sacred bond, that is a marriage. For that matter, polygamy under the same conditions (consenting adults) should also be a non issue.

We say we live in a free society, but only if your life and need for liberty don't conflict with the conservative religious values in this country.

Elementally speaking, Marriage adds a balance in all four classical quadrants as well as the Aristotialian fifth.

Earth-Marriage boosts your credit rating and financial situation statistically. Married people are much less likely to be homeless or go hungry.

Air-Married people have two social and familial sets to work from and are also usually better educated.

Fire-Married people on average do have more sex than single people. And most people say they enjoy married sex more than when they were single.

Water-Married people are usually much more emotionally healthy due to less financial problems, more sex, and a better support network of friends and family.

Spirit-Including the above. married people are much more likely to be spiritual than single people. Perhaps it's their beneficial marriage relationship that helps them embrace the divine.

Well done as always, Starhawk, well done. Thanks.

---------

Hi Wiccan! Where is everybody else?

I knew I could trust Starhawk to nail it right on the head. I don't think this will even be an issue in 40 years. My son's generation is more accepting of people on their own terms, and my grandniece's generation will wonder what all the blather was about. Speed that day!