Religious Rights for Pagan Prisoners

This man sounds truely inspiring.

OK, OK, I'm up, I'm up! :)

And, I poked back in on the other thread. I really just think the person who got all arrogant and condemnatory was just confused somehow, despite that not giving anyone the right to say such things. :)

Wake up, everybody! Starhawk has an essay out on the latest On Faith question.

Paganplace - just posted a reply on Melissa's blog. I didn't sail in firing full broadsides, but definitely fired a warning shot across their bows. They know where I stand.

Arminius

Ah, Arminius, it's just the usual stupidity, I suppose.

I really do find it infuriating just how much stupidity some Christians expect us to indulge while making us deal with real hardships and uncertainties so they can get their jollies pretending they know what's what.

Even if those ideas involve ludicrous assertions that the only *possible* reason people could have similar and valid ideas in our heads is out of some conspiracy to undercut their bigotries on the Internet. :)

Feh. :)

Paganplace,

Just took a look at your postings on Melissa's blog. This could be interesting, if you pursue it. Since I am a liberal Episcopalian, and since we have a gay bishop, I might could help. Or at least stir things up.

Arminius

Ha. That was actually pretty therapeutic.

Get this: apparently now I was secretly Melissa Etheredge's wife all along. Rationale being, apparently, 'Cain't be more than one or two of them tree huggin' lezbeens out there. Obviously, you're all in cahoots.' :)

Yep, it's all off, now, my dear one gets home, I say, "You never sing to me," she'll be, "You never bought my records," And on it'll go. Might take a while to work out who we are. We all look the same, yaknow. ;)

*waving* Glad you're up, both of you.

Guess we can hang out on this thread till WaPo comes up with some more interesting topics (for non-Christians, anyway.)

*pausing to relax a bit.*

Counting on the goodness in people for some things. Have a good thought for me.

One thing about ending up being a couple of minorities at the same time, ...I don't think even Irish girls are really prepared for what that means.

I also think that those who seem obsessed with some manner in which being queer or Pagan seems to 'oppress' them so badly, have any idea just how much they're willing to put others through just cause they don't want to feel comfortable about it. Feel like I want to go poke in on Melissa Etheredge's thread and try not to be too caustic at certain types. :)

*sigh.* Anyway. There we are. :) My Gods didn't say it'd be easy, ...Just I wonder if some people realize just how hard they're willing to make things for others over some abstract idea.

Strikes me that a lot of Christians didn't have even 'Cathartic' experiences, this year, Arminius, so much as using the occasion where they say the 'world was saved from sin,' to come online and damn people as sinners for Jesus. :)

Slight vent. :)

Butterfly,
Hiya!

I need to talk to you...can you email me your phone # again. I promise this time to put it in my address book...

I am sorry I missed your Home Blessing. I was sending all kinds of love and peace vibes, hope you caught them.

Check out the PSG map...
http://wisteria. org/map.htm
they have changed things around. I knew they would have to, it has grown hugely, building new roads, camping slots and putting in posts where we know what camp site we are in.

We are going to have to limit the stuff we take I am afraid. We are going to have a full load. Which with gas being as it is,it's going to be an expensive trip. We have reservations for a motel in Huntington(last long hot shower and sleeping in a semi comfy bed).

Hugs and blessings!
terra

It's spring, all right.

My lemon, satsuma, and blood orange trees aer all covered in blooms, and yesterday, I spotted a bee with his face buried in one of the lemon blossoms.

Terra,

Thanks, your post made me smile. I love Spring too.

I have recovered. As I explained to Lep elsewhere, every so often I need a drastic catharsis. I got it, for sure. Now I am good to go - and I think you are too. And also Paganplace.

Keep in touch, friends.

Arminius

Paganplace and Arminius,

I hope both of you are well. Arminius, I was worried about you. I hope that your Easter was blessed and you were surrounded by love and peace.

Paganplace, Arminius is right...you are loved. Be well sister.

I am back on both feet (kinda), the sun is shineing..I saw hawks this morning calling and circling above, butterflies winged by, roses are in bud and one of my peach trees has over a dozen baby peaches. Is this not a wonderous world?

I am happy...spring is here, life is blooming...
terra

Oh, Happy Easter, btw, Arminius, it's that day, isn't it. :)

Hi, Arminius. :)

Glad you're doing OK, you sounded a bit overwrought, there, ...I realize a lot of this stuff is intense to you, though that's something that film apparently really played on for a lot of people... it was kind of meant to, maybe in crass ways, but I'll leave that to your judgment, as I've never seen it.

It's that those images are all over this culture, ...too often used as a sort of bludgeon, and that dream was the first thing I thought of when you seemed overwhelmed, ...I don't think that was the message you're really supposed to take from it. As long as you go gentle on yourself, where appropriate, I suppose.

And, blessed be, Terra. Pain's often overrated, but sometimes it makes things simple: if you can't find renewal with a cup of coffee and your feet up, when can you? :)

Well, and the flowers. It's a little early up here for those, but I've got some seeds from our ceremonies. :)

Arminius,
Oh I am doing fine...everything feeling a little better.

I am fixing part of Easter/Eostre dinner...my Daughter likes my cooking. She is Christian, but I like to make a big dinner where Christains and Pagans break bread together. Baked Ham and Jambalya...and Pineapple upside down cake (my student has never had it) and pineapple is the symbol of hospitality.

I think one of the best things about living in the south is that we are watching things bloom when many are still facing snow and cold.

terra

Terra,

Flowers are very important, and the living symbol of renewal, both for Pagans and Christians. No Christian Easter service is complete unless attended by a great host of flowers.

Take care of yourself. We need you.

Arminius

Paganplace,

You are a remarkable person, dear Lady. I love you.

I'm up. I recover. But I warned you all that this is a terribly emotional time for me.

I am not into the guilt, I don't worry about the hell thing, if I know that I sin I confess and get up and try to do better rather than wallowing, and I don't buy into the rapture thing. I am a very unusual Christian, I suppose.

Your dream is disturbing - but I think you had the right reaction. Us Celts do fight back.

Ya gotta remember, this week is 'real' to me. Maybe, probably, in a transcendent sense, certainly in a spiritual one. This predates the movie. It is just as if I were there. That make it real to me. So I'm nuts, so what. It is a beautiful and gentle madness.

Arminius

Yesterday afternoon I was pulling weeds and turned too quick and landed on my right side...damaging my knee, shoulder and spraining my foot...So as with all good intentions of mice and men, I had to change my plans for Spring Rite.

I was supposed to get up early in the morn and meet Kore with the dawn. But instead I laid with proped up foot and a cup of coffee in bed.

But my student came in bearing a gift, a large bowl of Wisteria flowers from the blooming bush in the yard, and small clusters of yellow roses (from the arch over the side walk)and a representative of every bit of blooming plant here. A gift that I will not forget.

I do not understand the view of remembering the pain of Jesus, and seeming to forget the gift of renewal. The Passion of Christ was brutal and ugly...I could not watch it. But even as a Pagan the story of the rebirth was the story that I could take joy in.

To me the renewal is the gift of flowers...the purple wisteria, the clusters of yellow thornless roses, The flowers from the privit and the little star flowers from the fields, the St. Johnswort and the young leaves of the bergamount, mint and lemon balm...so sweet and fresh that I cried over the kindness of the gift from a young woman, and the Great Mother who gives us such abundance. It is also my own renewal of a new day...

There can not be spring without winter.

Everything lost is found again,
in a new form, in a new way,
Everything hurt is healed again
in a new life, in a new day.

Arminius, Paganplace and all...a blessed renewal to you all.

terra

"It is real to me, very real. The pain is actually physical. This is my path. MY path, not yours. Our paths meet on the top of that mountain. I'll meet you there."

Doing OK, Arminius?

Pain is *there,* yes, but it's not 'real.'

I know a fair bit about pain. It's *there,* but it is not the reality. What that movie is intended to do is confuse the visual center of your brain that can't tell the difference between what we see and what we do... This is part of us, Why we love to watch sports we aren't playing, why we delight in air guitar...

Also why we feel bad ..or the other things we're led to feel, when we watch movie-suffering.

Real? How real.

Not as real as your heart or the eyes I'd be looking at you with if we were in the same room right now.

This is not you. None of this shadowplay.

I had a real bad dream recently, you know.

The Christians were crucifying me on one of their crosses. Never actually had a railroad spike driven through my wrist, but apparently I can imagine.

Lucid dreamer that I am, I let em do it, and picked my moment to start busting moves, and tear the spike out to kick some butt with, after the fashion of a true Gael, I suppose.

Cried really hard.

Pain.

It's there.

It's not real.

You are real, in any reality worth worrying about.

And if your Jesus is gonna save you from any Hells, you f-rellin' remember that.

Understand?

Hells are people thinking pain is more real than they are.

You *get up.* Dammit.

Capiche?

Or, I guess, the Goddess could turn him into an ass, a la Apuleius, and see what he learns from it, but he already kinda jumped the gun, there. :)

"Damn that anti-Semite, Gibson. How could he produce such a thing that would tear me apart?"

Cause he's torn-apart.

Poor soul has, frankly, become all the characters he's played.... Each one a suffering man trying to recover a barely-seen Goddess-like feminine figure... All the way back to Mad Max. Same character, same drama. He does it well, but somewhere some religious (ahem) spank took over.

The 'Passion plays' of medieval Europe had everything to do with enshrining and redirecting certain pain.

People were taught to identify their own pain with Jesus, and that the Jews were the ones who brought that pain.

Bad reaction to a long-standing soul-wound that the man's celebrity mixed all up with his sense of identity: if big stars are allowed one.

*That* dude needs some quality time with either some Gnostics or someone like me.

All that's on you is getting over certain romances of pain. Cause it's messed-up.

You know, though, Arminius, speaking of mountaintops and all, (I suppose the Pagan heart's more partial to fields and valleys and forests, but be that as it may,) ...Had some good company, today, and I was thinking a bit what kind of Good Friday you might be having.

I mean, you obviously aren't the sort who thinks your God is so small that he's all that fussed what people believe, or any of that, but, you do realize, right, that as ranklesome as Christian triumphalism and accusation gets to be in places like this, that, ...and I think I speak for many of my people... that any goodness your Jesus brought into this world is duly-respected?

Something we intend to carry forth, too. My path didn't lead me into any of his churches, ...guess you have some idea how that couldn't possibly be healthy for me, personally, anyway.

I wanted you to know that that doesn't mean I don't think there's a spirit you have access to which can be a friend of humanity, and that's taken as given.

In my world, books and 'sins of the fathers' don't make you the bad guy. Doesn't really enter into the equation unless someone's acting out the worse part of the karma.

Heck, not everything I learned in Catholic school from yer man there was bad, though it was often in spite of the dogmas and all.

Guess what worries me is you might be taking on that Christian guilt. I hope not, though. I don't think yer Jesus really intended to start his own cargo cult of himself. Well, maybe he did, but if so, he's become something else.

Personally, I think it's a great strength of Wicca, at least for someone like me: A very fallible 'founder.' :) No 'rock of ages,' Unca Jerry, but, Lady, did he have *stones.* "I'm bringing the Old Gods back, agla! "

Lord and Lady were like, (I like to imagine,) "OK, spellboy. Want some?" :)

There's so much talk from Christians, 'We are the light of the world,' ...and somehow that got all messed up into claiming, 'Everything else is dark, and we aren't, whatever we do.'

If Christians were Pagans, it'd read more like, "There's a light in the world, and we're becoming it, like we become a tree or a bird or an animal or a wind or any of those other things in our funny names,"

Kinda think a lot of things Jesus is supposed to said are probably better taken in that spirit, and that's the kind of thing I see in the better sorts of Christians.

A lot of folks are kind of wound up about brand names of goodness and how to go about buying em.

You know better, right?

Too many Christians' idea of 'Be like Jesus' translates to 'You oughtta be damned and
crucified, kneel to this instead.'

That's kind of to do with that darkness I was talking about.

I don't think I have to tell you, though, there's a friend of humanity in there, too, as messed-up as things have gotten, right?

No, Christian history wasn't exactly a sudden light upon our benighted Pagan ...benightedness, but neither is it all necessarily shameful. It's what you make of it, and I for one respect any will to turn it to the good.

Frankly, a patron God I won't name told me to, and showed me just why. ;)

It's a big universe, and I wouldn't want you to feel overly-bad about the nonsense in it. These things take time. :)

OK? :)

My Friends,

I thought there were no more tears left, but they kept coming.

Watched 'The Passion of the Christ' again.

It broke me. Again.

Damn that anti-Semite, Gibson. How could he produce such a thing that would tear me apart?

It is real to me, very real. The pain is actually physical. This is my path. MY path, not yours. Our paths meet on the top of that mountain. I'll meet you there.

Arminius

"One difference I have noted between Christians and Pagans: you guys tend to get along fine, regardless of differences, while we Christians can all to often be at each others' throats. In total violation of the Gospels, but I am guilty of it too."

Ah, well, we have our, err, lively discussions, ourselves, usually when we forget or haven't learned yet that Pagan religion really doesn't have much need for squabbles about Ultimate Powers Via Dogma and all. I think it really helps that we aren't based on notions that if someone believes some minutia 'wrong' they're gonna burn forever, or maybe bring the wrath of the Gods down on everyone.

Some of the newbies'll sort of bring these assumptions to their finding of the Old Ways, but fortunately, the ways themselves teach better... easy way or hard way, it's kind of built-in.

*laugh* I remember the first time I met an actual Wiccan elder, Gods, did I lay into *him,* with all the punk-rock fury I could muster, till I realized I was really shouting one childish thing, whatever the topic was. "Where were *you.*"

We've got a lot of strong personalities, ...there's bound to be sparks from time to time, but getting along is a big ....and inherent, part of the curriculum, if you asked me.

But, just occasionally you see the true stupidity of what we call a 'Witch War.' :) The way my lifepath has gone, I've often found myself in the role of a mediator, ...I try to express my impatience patiently. :)

There's no real reason for that sort of thing, except, I say, 'For Practice.' :)

Much is made of our magic, maybe really too much. But I think the first thing it really does is to teach the ethics and discernment we believe in applying to everything, directly and on the fast track. :)

Paganplace,

No prob with the RC thing. We Episcopalians know how to poke fun at ourselves; we are known in the South as 'Whiskeypalians', because wherever you find four Episcopalians, you will always find a fifth....

Yes, it is especially true that Episcopalians tend to be in the upper middle class. I am an exception, alas.

One difference I have noted between Christians and Pagans: you guys tend to get along fine, regardless of differences, while we Christians can all to often be at each others' throats. In total violation of the Gospels, but I am guilty of it too.

Arminius

Oh, right, my apologies on forgetting you're Episcopalian, however I managed that one. :)

It's funny, I don't generally think of Christians as generally being financially-unable to get to some service or other, Christian churches do seem to be everywhere, sorry to hear. But, there's always solitary practices. Unlike a number of Pagans, I'm not by inclination a solitary, but that option's always there.

"And no, we don't believe in transubstantiation."

I've often wondered, kind of idly, really, if Pagans would be considered to... It seems that whole division in Christianity is based on separations we just don't make in the first place. :)

We sort of operate in what you might call a 'mythic consciousness' in our ceremonies, you see... in some ways, that transubstantiation question can seem kind of moot. :)

Hi, Paganplace,

I am at home, not for health reasons but for financial ones. I am having my own Holy Week, and my spirit is busy.

I'm not RC, but my Episcopal church of course shares a lot with them. Or not. To us, the pope is simply the Bishop of Rome.

It is, as you are aware, no accident that Easter is celebrated in the spring. The Pagan influence at work, and more power to it. Easter any other time of the year simply would not work. The renewal, by the way, is ongoing, within each Christian. And by associating Easter with spring, we celebrate spring too.

By the way, the word 'celebration' is very important. That is exactly what my church does, and it can be profoundly moving. The offering of bread and wine is not called the Celebration of the Holy Eucharist for a whim.

And no, we don't believe in transubstantiation.

Arminius

Interesting that the holidays coincide this year.

It's still quite cold up here, but one can feel the first stirrings of the awakening land for the season, ...under lots and lots of snow. :)

I don't mind the cold, so much, but apparently it's no good for some of what ails me, ...one good thing about this move to the South, I suppose, though the summers will get me in other ways. :)

So, this is that day when the Catholics are praying for our conversion and the like.

I always found the Catholic ceremonies of this day pretty creepy on a few counts, but there are also some similarities to Wiccan ways, in that there's a seasonal celebration of sorts, with a dying and rebirthing king of sorts.

The seasonal aspect and ties are one place where what we do isn't so different, even if perhaps it's seen quite differently: you could say the Pagan view isn't one of commemorating something that happened just once. :) (It's part of why the Pagan customs some fundamentalists love to alternately hate and try to claim nonbelievers are trying to suppress have continued alongside Christianity, if often in ill-understood ways. :)

Hope you're having a good holiday, though, Arminius, (Figure you might be busy today, of course.)

Oh, and Arminius, there's a litany of joys, too, even if I get crabby at times. :) It's... just been a little intense at times. :)

I think it's on all of us to be sure our religions and societies reflect the very best in humanity, and the human spirit. We have so much, and I think in a lot of ways, we aren't used to dealing with abundance after so many thousands of years of uncertainties and struggles.

And... I almost managed to completely-forget something I promised to do, today. I'll be back later. :)

Hi, Friends,

Well, then, Happy Ostara!

Although I am in religious mourning right now, I welcome this day, with its explosion of flowers and the promise of the coming of the soft green of Spring's first leaves. Glad I made it for another one!

Arminius

Hey, Happy Ostara! I hadn't noticed the date coming up, ....I'll be celebrating with some friends this weekend.

*flop* Oof, did I have some extra energy to burn off yesterday. :) Caught up with me, that. :)

Now, the question, what am I going to cook. :)

It's always involved when comparing past societies, I suppose, really. It's not as clear-cut as sometimes we're led to believe, though. :)

Paganplace,

I don't know, even after several readings, just how to reply to your post, which I can only call a litany of sorrows. I damn near wept. I can say this: let us not shuffle in sorrow, but walk proudly in this grand and beautiful creation.

This is my Holy Week, so I am even more emotional than ever. The passion of Jesus is very, very real to me, almost as if I had been there. Maybe I was. And the joy of Easter is also very real, and extremely emotional, to me.

This is my path, only mine. It includes the Way of the Cross. Your path is different. But.... I firmly believe that we will meet at the top of that mountain.

God bless,

Arminius

Arminius, Good Morning and Happy Ostara! (first day of Spring)

There were many types of slavery...some like what we had in America, some like in Greece or Rome.

There is a story about Slavery and the Goddess Diana in Italy.

The Golden Bough, by Sir James Frazer opens up with:
The still glassy lake that sleeps
Beneath Aricia's trees-
Those trees in whose dim shadow
The ghastly priest doth reign,
The priest who slew the slayer,
And shall himself be slain.

There was a little woodland lake called Nemi, Diana's Mirror, as it was called by the ancients.The shrine of Diana was there...no temple only the grove and sanctuary of trees...

The Priest of this place a run away slave, King of the Wood (Rex Nemorensis)...who must kill the one before him. This rule I do not believe there was another tradition like it any where else...but there is a story about this...

The book is excellent and if you can find it, worth having. I believe it should be a must in every Pagan's book shelf, or those interested in history.

terra

Terra,

Thanks for the links. The one about the Brehon Laws was especially fascinating. An echo of that is in Scotland - there was never a King of Scotland - he was King of Scots. The Scots were well aware of the difference. Also, the Germanic tribes that fought Caesar and numerous other emperors were known for the freedom of their women.

Arminius

This is interesting...
On Patrick

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/patrick/confession.toc.html

This is a site that I found early on-Medieval Sourcebook
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html

I am not saying that Pagans did not have slaves...but like the rights of women, the Irish were ahead of the curve.

The Brehon Laws...
http://www.irish-society.org/Hedgemaster%20Archives/brehon_laws.htm

terra

Terra,

You are correct about slavery in Rome. They could even buy their freedom, and then their children would be citizens. The most valuable slaves were the literate ones. What a contrast with our horrible American history.

Yes, the church has an abominable record with slavery. Patrick was an exception in hating it.

Slavery did die out in Europe about the 12th century. This fueled technological development, since it was now respectable to be a miner or a blacksmith. Instead of just getting more slaves to do more work, people starting figuring out how to do it better by themselves. By the 14th century, Europe was much further advanced in industry than Rome ever was. A slaveholding society has a lot of trouble making any lasting technological advances - the slave owners don't want to get their hands dirty.

Arminius

Paganplace,

"Time to save civilization. *again.* :)"

I think you're on to something there.....

"I think it would be a good idea."
- Gandhi, when asked about Western Civilization

Arminius

As far as slavery and Christianity goes...It was the Pagans in Rome that gave rights to Slaves:

The Pagan Roman Republic took many steps to alleviate the lot of slaves. In 82 BCE murder of slaves were forbidden by the Cornelian Law. Around 30 BCE the Petronian Law forbade the sending of slaves to fight in the amphitheater. The Stoic teaches Seneca (c 5 BCE-65 CE), while he still had influence over the insane emperor, Nero (37-68 CE) managed to induce him to pass a law to forbade the cruel treatment of slaves. The Emperor Hadrian (76-138), an Epicurean, revived the laws prohibiting the murder of slaves and of sending them to the amphitheater. He also suppressed the inhuman practice of housing slaves underground. Hadrian was also known to have banished a wealthy Roman lady, named Umbricia, for cruelty to her slaves. By the second century slaves had already acquired the right, under certain circumstances, to bring legal action against their masters. The Emperor Antoninus Pius (86-161) issued an imperial decree which gives freedom to a slave running from a cruel master; on the condition that the runaway slave must embrace a statue of the emperor before he is considered a free man.

The voices of conscience raised against slavery was also Pagan. The Pagan Dio Chrysostom, who was the greatest orator of his age, delivered a speech around AD100 in a public hall in the Forum of Rome where he explicitly and at great length condemned slavery as unjust.

The first Christian Roman Emperor, Constantine (c274-337) actually undid most of the humane laws to alleviate the position of slaves laid down by his pagan predecessors. He permitted parents to sell their children into slavery and allowed finders of abandoned children to bring them up as slaves. He also issued a decree which stipulates the death penalty for any Christian woman who had sexual intercourse with a slave; that the slave would also be put to death is a foregone conclusion.

The Roman pontiffs made many remarks about slaves and slavery. none of which helped to abolish the practice. Pope Leo The Great (d.461) ruled that no slaves can become priests because their "vileness" will "pollute" the sacred order. Pope Gregory the Great (c540-604), who was the richest slave owner in sixth century Europe, forbade the marriage of Christian women to slaves. In the eleventh century, Pope Benedict VIII (d1024), in an effort to stop priests from having sex, decreed that all children produced by these unlawful coupling should be made slaves. Pope Paul III (1468-1549) decreed that all Englishmen who supported the errant King, Henry VIII should be reduced to slavery. In the fifteenth century, the papacy gave the king of Portugal permission top conquer "heathen" countries and reduced their population in "everlasting slavery."

The churches and the monasteries, far from being a haven for escaping slaves, actually owned slaves. When ancient slavery ended, the monasteries were among the last to give up their slaves. Ancient slavery ended in the twelfth century, or more correctly evolved into serfdom, not because of any concerted Christian action but for purely economic reasons. It became cheaper for the wealthy to have serfs working their land and feeding themselves than to own dependent slaves.

terra

Yaknow, though, Arminius, it's a funny thing that just woke me, but, heavy trip as it is to lay on anyone...

Time to save civilization. *again.* :)

Good to go? :)

Though, Arminius, in terms of door-to-door missionaries, it maybe takes the context below to get this one:

"knock, knock,"

"Who's there?"

"Would you like eternal life?"

"Are you *F'n *nuts?* :) "

;)

"Do you guys know where I can DL Gwydion's songs? Thanks!"

I believe Google will turn those up, if not a place where you can actually buy the CDs, which is worth doing. :) (I've always wanted to do a blues version of 'The Raven is Calling' with standup bass, myself. :) Somehow I don't think the dude who dared call himself Penderrwenn would mind. :) )

Ah, well, Arminius:

"I sense a bitterness in you. God knows you have the right to it. I have my own, but cannot claim to have what you must have."

Doesn't do to deny it, but it's certainly not the biggest thing in my life, thank the Lord and Bright Lady, ...As and that's good enough to be getting on with, I say. :)

No illusions it's not a soul-wound on our people, though, what I mention.

A big one, too often filled with all manner of nasty things that seem convenient, I'm afraid. Doesn't do to deny *that,* either.

Personally, I tend to think of it like, (suborning of chieftains for short-term inter-tribal interest aside,) Christianity came in and threatened and promised a lot of things that just didn't fit in our world. Being Irish, we triedd to crak each other in the crown to try and *make* em fit, but it was ultimately ...just more empty violence, something that cost more than it ever gave, compared to what 'we' might have done in our own good time.

It's not like Christian mildness wasn't something probably much-needed among the Bronze Age bravado, but the price was too high, the sacrifice to some God of Judgment too long... the divorce from the real understanding of the generational conflicts... too costly in blood and tears, and too lost among the struggle against invading oppressors appealing to any love for the cross.

Too often we've been tools in the internecine fights of Christians seeking power, I'd say.

Even our own dogged senses of loyalty turned against us.

Too many not even giving a crap what they're fighting for, as long as there's a fight. No names, no honor, no justice, no hope for peace, just feud. Blood for blood and stick a crucifix on it.

How long in the 20th century did we have to wait for someone to have the mythic sense or happenstance to sign a peace accord on 'Good Friday?'

Erin... Eriu... Is a Goddess... One who asks.... demands, really, one thing of any who come to Ireland from beyond the ninth wave: Become Irish, and be strangers no more, as it was for the Sons Of Mil and even before, even for the Tuatha de Danaan....

But the Church still considers us barely-civilized, barely Christianized, given to visions and fancies and drink and all as we are, 'Oh, father, show me the error of my ways, and if your peepee won't convince me, put me in a Magdalene house, wouldya please?'

Slavery bothers you? Bitterness bothers you? I'll tell you about both, and that's just Boston.

You, I'll wager, were never beaten, accosted, or locked in the dark for seeing what we've always seen. Being what we've always been. Never had to turn aside calls for help from boys who were being molested cause you were afraid of being called a d*** or something. Never raped by someone who got it in their head, (From *Gods* know where) that their *penis* could 'fix' you from your 'sin.'

*Yes,* it's bitter, Arminius. It can't not be. But such bitter things are not the summmation of our lives, or our heritage, or ourselves as the humans we are now.

Not even of your religion. But you gotta *make* it so. No more free rides.

Just in general.

Some people been telling the Irish for a long time that 'suffering is good for the soul,' and I'm here to tell you that's only gonna wash for a certain number of generations more. A soul gets over that. In time, anyway.

Time that no dogma can stop us from having.

'Too long a sacrifice makes a stone of the heart,'

But I'm learning to speak the language of stones, as goes a fave song of mine goes, and Lady demands naught of sacrifice, anyway, as the Charge says. :)

It's us. It's always been us. Us.

What do you want to do now, kinsman? Maybe we can shuffle along with my bitternesses. :)

Hey, I like curmudgeons, too! I haven't seen Isaac in a while, since I stopped attending Free Spirit Gathering. Like I said, I disagree with some of his positions - I just take what I like and leave the rest.

I've been slowly trying to download MP3s of various cassettes that I have that have gotten damaged over the years. Besides, I don't think that I have a cassette player anymore. Do you guys know where I can DL Gwydion's songs? Thanks!

Paganplace,

Dear Lady, dear friend,

Yes, let there be peace here. As it should be.

I have that Book of Kells. I warmly appreciate your offer.

I sense a bitterness in you. God knows you have the right to it. I have my own, but cannot claim to have what you must have.

Remember, despite all differences, we do stand together. You are one hell of a lady.

Signing off for the night. Sleep well, friend.

Armminius

sasha,
I agree...
We can go outside and look up see the moon and feel the breeze..hear the trees talking to us. Those behind bars have only their sameness each day, maybe for years. The real hell.

My HP serves some prisoners as a chaplian. He has to do it through the mail but long letters and lessons have helped get some of these men through their time. Having someone to count on and a way to live in balance, responcibility and connection gives them a structure and a view of living.

terra

Ok, though, 'truce.' Didn't realize his was a fight. :)

Friend. :)

I do have a little reason to be resentful how the churchmen turned certain of our beliefs to ...things I experienced... More recently than historians like to tell you, actually. But you can't live while taking certain things too personally.

If I still had this pretty little book of Kells, I'd like to send it to you, actually. I begin to think it's gone, though, it was nothing to be hoarding, anyway, if the words don't mean much to you. If I find it hiding while I pack, I'll tell you. :)

BB. :)

(And please forgive the rampant typoes: I moved my laptop around recently, and there's all manner of junk in my keyboard which has worked loose under the keys, and I'm chasing it around with Scotch tape. :) )

Anyway, the darkness Christianity brought to Irish folkways is something that kind of gets to me personally... That very intertwining of the natural and spiritual and human worlds so evident in the art you love also turned to greeting manifestations of our spiritual heritage in fearful ways that lead to abuse and atrocity.

Just cause you believe in your Bible doesn't mean stuff doesn't happen, stuff which people can be taught to believe is 'deviltry' to be expunged, instead of a manifestation of our ancestral connections to the land and spirit.

This is one of the things which modern Irish kind of cough politely and attribute to 'superstition,' ...till, of course, something weird happens and families are torn apart.

Our tribal culture wasn't perfect, and not to be over-romanticised, but, frankly, yes, it did turn the Irish view of the spirit world dark. Cause that kind of intimate daily connection just doesn't quite fit the Bible's view.

So it is with many tribal cultures that you can read Church documents instructing missionaries to appropriate, subvert, and eventually destroy.

In that funny Irish Pagan way, Arminius, I think you have the right to your beliefs, but, nothing's forgotten.

I believe you're a man of good character because you have a will to do better. That's still on you to do, but I will help in any way I can.

No illusions, though.

History's there.

Not to mention everyone crapping themselves about ghosts. Seriously.

Paganplace,

I respectfully request a truce. Our differences are deep, too deep for me now.

Peace, friend.

Arminius

"Eire was not benighted, except maybe for slavery, when Patrick landed on its shore"

Frankly, I'd be more inclined to say the Irish didn't know the *meaning* of slavery till he did. As I said, unfree peoples had enumerated rights and social mobility, whereas when Christian establishments came and turned the chiefs to hereditary partilineal inheritance rather than tanistry, that's when the slavery we love to hate *did* start, but that's the various lenses of history.

As far as I'm concerned, though, my ancestors welcomed monastic Christians once, and that's also something I'll stand for. Not like I never *was* one, myself.

The point is, there was a dignity and justice there which is too-readily dismissed by the Christian riumphalism of today... much of the utter corruption and destruction of the tribal ways and the rights of the people is glossed over with notions that Christianity 'brought light' to our benighted, stupid, tribal ancestors, whose laws, nonetheless, were the first things the invaders stole.

Paganplace,

One last Parthian shot: please read Cahill's book, and then come back and tell me what you think. The iron boot of the Vatican came long after Patrick.

Arminius

Paganplace,

Eire was not benighted, except maybe for slavery, when Patrick landed on its shore.

Give the dude a bit of credit. One man, against an entire land. That guy had guts.

At the time, Eire was total anarchy, everybody fighting everybody else, in the grand tradition of the Celts. Did Patrick fix that? Well, no.... they continued to fight. Something about the Irish! Yes, there was a 'High King' at Tara, but he had not much power. The only king that I know of who managed to pull that land of poets and fighters together was Brian Boru. He got killed, at a great age, maybe by traitors, at Clontarf, where the Vikings were roundly defeated in 1014 by the raging Irish.

What a country! My father, born in Belfast, toured the south of Eire as a young man. He said that it was the most beautiful land on the planet.

Arminius

(as this comes through)

"The emphasis here is on AGREE to disagree. We are not at bad odds here. I just have to step back, maybe gather some facts, etc.

We are still there."

Sure.

It's not always about 'facts,' such as we've been given to have, though. Also, perspectives. Bringing 'sin' and 'hells' and fears to our people, though, was no more a kindness that it ever was for those the Christians roll over tribal peoples with, bringinga their problems and 'solutions' thereto with them.

It's not our fault if we 'saved civilzation' while catching the very worst of it in the process.

We're Irish. It's what we do. :)

I mean, ou realize, Arminius, that before the Christians and later the English came, that the Irish were way ahead of the curve on this one thing: Even high kings were accountable to the law. Not to mention their geasa and other things nations and humans deal with.

Someone else had to come along and say, with force of power, 'There's another standard, arbitrated by some books and kings and power from the East that no one can read, even a lot of copyists.'

I suppose, though, Arminius, what you may be talking about is the common notion that St. Patrick brought 'light' to a 'benighted' people.

What he actually brought was a notion of absolute and eternal war to people who always liked a good fight, much to our ongoing woe.

Paganplace,

The emphasis here is on AGREE to disagree. We are not at bad odds here. I just have to step back, maybe gather some facts, etc.

We are still there.

Arminius

"For a time, I will leave it at the point that we agree to disagree."

Ok. :) I'm not sure on just what points this may be (Sorry, there, Net went down for a bit) But...I on't find disagreement so inherently disagreeable, as do some. :)

Still, there's something I could clarify? :)

Paganplace,

For a time, I will leave it at the point that we agree to disagree.

With much respect,

Arminius

"Damnit, woman, you exhaust me! I don't always understand you, But, whatever, somehow, I really do love you. Don't understand. Don't need to."

See, now, there's some Irish in you after all. ;)

But, actually, Arminius, Patrick's Christianity had no real place for the ancestral spirits and spirituality of the Irish people... the concepts on't exist in the Hebrew/Christian/quasi-aristotelian mindset:

The churchmen insisted the Fae must be *devils,* while the common folk kind of fit the Fair Folk into this role of 'Conscientious Objectors In The War In Heaven.' ...which idea the churchmen fought hard to suppress, but the clergy were notoriously-ignorant about the actual spiritual lives of the people, who, being Irish, cheerfully humored them. :)

Paganplace,

Damnit, woman, you exhaust me! I don't always understand you, But, whatever, somehow, I really do love you. Don't understand. Don't need to.

Arminius

Oh, well, there's a kind of fond story of the king Conchobhair, who'd supposedly lived for many years with a sling-ball in his head from some old battle, and on the advice of his Druids was told he should not become agitated:

According to this syncretized myth, someone came along (before Patrick, actually this king was supposed to have lived centuries before,) and told him the story of how Jesus was treated. But according to the story, he got so pissed-off he blew the sling-bullet out of his head and died on the spot. :)

*sigh,* Well, Arminius, I suppose if they were letting girls fly at the time, I'd have been right about in the right place to have a different experience of the first Gulf War. We're simpler creatures than we like to think. Given to repeat certain patterns.

Gotta do better, though.

Paganplace,

Hoo-boy, we got a problem here,

I need to do a lot of reading.

It is my impression that St Patrick brought light to the Emerald Isle. It was the later imposition of the mailed fist of the Bishop of Rome that brought darkness.

To be continued.....

With respect, and, what the hell, with love,

Arminius

Once more into the breach, dear friends -

THE BAGHDAD RAG
Welcome to the Quagmire
An Ode to the Shrub and the Neocons
To be sung at the Republican Convention
With Apologies to Country Joe and the Fish

Well come on all young women and men
George Bush needs a helping hand
He’s got us all in a terrible jam
Over in Iraq and Afghanistan
So forget about a job and pick up a gun
We’re gonna have a whole lot of fun

Well it’s one two three
What are we fighting for?
Don’t ask me I don’t give a damn
Next stop’s Afghanistan
And it’s five six seven
Open up the Baghdad gates
There ain’t no time to wonder why
Whoopee, we’re all gonna die!

Come on Cheney, don't be slow
why man this war is a go-go
there's plenty good money to be made by
by giving Halliburton all the oil trade
let's hope and pray when they drop the nukes,
they drop ‘em on those Islam pukes
(chorus)

Come on neocons, let's move fast
your big chance has come at last
now you can go and kill Islam bads
’cos the only good moslem is one that's dead
and you know that peace can only be won
when we've blown 'em all to kingdom come
(chorus)

Come on mothers throughout the land
pack your boys off to Afghanistan
come on fathers don't hesitate
send your girls to Iraq before it's too late
and you can be the first ones on your block
to have your kid come home in a box

(chorus)

I suppose, Arminius, though, all that quaint and misty Celtic myth is lovely till it happens to *you.* Whatever else you may say, Christianity brought a darkness to the Irish people, one that turned our ancestral spirits, even at times, our children, (Same thing, to a Gaelic mind, oftimes) to 'devils.'

Remembering past lives is not what a lot of new Agers crack it up to be, I'll tell you this much. It's especially-distressing in a world where it's *not supposed to happen, period, never mind be dealt with constructively.

General Christian notion of what to do with a 'changeling' child who knows too much is generally to hang you over a fire or otherwise mistreat one till the nasty auld Fae bring the 'real' child back.

People will accept a certain amount of quaint Celtic mysticism, you see. Don't so much look at the nastiness that can come about.

Everything the English did to the Native Americans, you see, they practiced on the Irish.

It's not even about St. Patrick, but, actually, there was little kindness and mercy in the man or his ideas. He turned the very spirit of a people to a set of very nasty fears about things which previously, people dealt with.

'Literacy' of a few was no boon, when few could afford to *touch* a book. Whatever else may be said, Christianity turned our ancestors' ways to some kind of fear-filled voodoo.

Though not so much as you'd think. ;)

"Just tried to post my own protest ballad. It got slammed by the WaPo Politically Correct Police. Will edit and try again."

In this place, be glad of those filters, they occasionally trip me up, usually when I quote someone saying something nasty, but, it does filter out those inarticulate enough to rely on certain words. What can you do. Imagine how much more JJ we'd see if he were allowed to post regular slurs every ten seconds. :)

It's not about PC, it's about standards. Me, I'll cuss like a fireman for a few years at a stretch till I get bored with it, anyway.

I imagine there's been a lot of things-not-worth-hearing posted at me with uncivil language, and I don't miss it. :)

As for being a precocious reader, I can identify. Frankly, to all appearances, I was *born* literate. Then again, I seem to have spent my first few years in this life freaking my father out by trying to report back to my unit, ...kinda took 'Back to the Taxpayers' to a whole new level, there. Or so I thought. :)

*laugh* No one had any idea what was going on, there, though. Embarrassing, but one can laugh, now. Well. Kinda.

For me, this is the big thing about Fundies and atheist both who wave their hands menacingly and go, 'Nooobody knoooows,'

I'm just like, 'Whatever you believe, your Gods better prepare you for unexpected situations.'

No one with a young brain is immune to their folks pointing at a tortured man and saying, 'This is cause of *you,* ....but at the same time, a lot of the stuff Christians talk about 'death' was always just jibba-jabba to me. Maybe someone's gotta do it, cause far-memory ain't exactly *comfy,* but, really.

I didn't have a grand old time with the Catholics, you know, Arminius, but, still. I don't think that was supposed to enshrine death-fear in that way we hear so much, to so much ill.

Speaking of being a Gael.

When Padraig and Oisin were debating over the nature of the world and otherworld, the latter Pagan figure supposedly looked on the demon-infested Christian view of the Otherworld, and said,

"Padraig, give Goll Mac Morna an iron tug for his flail." :)

Paganplace,

Just tried to post my own protest ballad. It got slammed by the WaPo Politically Correct Police. Will edit and try again.

Ah, books. Got a small truckload. This is a major problem, since I am 64, unemployed, and must give up my house and move. Agonies......

Yes, I have the same problem about collecting books. Instilled by my parents. When I reached the 1st grade, and they handed me 'Dick and Jane', I nearly threw it back at them. I had a reading level much beyond that. My first intellectual insult. Heck, I was reading the Encyclopedia Britannica at age 5. Did not understand much, but I could piece it out. Mind you, this does not make me unique, I have met many others better.

Arminius

Oh, but as books go, Arminius, the Stirling isn't hard to find. All over Ebay and Amazon and the like, if not your local store, (that'd be hit or miss, but you see em sometimes.)

Me, I read a lot of poetry, big fan of Yeats and Tennyson ...various dry nonfiction stuff, and classics, really, been slowly working my way through some Epictetus and Lucretius in a quality-time sort of way. Doesn't take much of that to keep my mind occupied for a while. :)

I've been kind of been deliberately making time for fiction, lately, after a space of taking my reading time way too seriously, particularly for the level of concentration I could plausibly-muster. Also, I had trouble picking up fiction without feeling guilty for not *writing* some. :)

Let's see, I have a store of JG Ballard that's gonna have to do me for the rest of this incarnation, so I've been nursing it like a cellar of old wine for years and years, now... (I'm of the school that likes her library to have lots of stuff that I haven't read yet, rather than one who devours everything right when it comes to hand, you see: I kind of acquired to the point of 'OK, this'll do,' and since only have bought what's of particular immediate interest.)

And a whole bunch of Pagan books I want to re-read but keep ending up hiding as the landlady keeps traipsing through and I don't need the complications. :)

Yeah, Athena. He's a neat dude. I've had occasion to chat with him. I do think his filks of Irish nationalist songs tend to be over-the-top, but what can you do. It's not his singing he's respected for. :)

As Pagan 'rebel songs' go, I like this one from Gwydion in the Seventies:

We Won't Wait Any Longer

"We have trusted no man's promise,
We have kept to just ourselves.
We have suffered from the lies in all the books upon your shelves.
And our patience and endurance through the Burning Times and now have given us the strength to keep our vow.

We won't wait any longer
We are stronger than before
We won't wait any longer
We are stronger than before...

You have grazed away the heather and erased the Sacred Grove.
You have driven Native peoples from the places that they love.
Though your greed has been unbounded, you have felt the pangs of shame,

Every time you trod upon the Mother's name. (Chorus...)
Though you thought you had destroyed the mem'ry of the Ancient Ways
Still the People light the balefires every year on Solstice Day.
And on Beltane Eve and Samhain
You may find us on the hill, invoking once again the Triple Will. (Chorus...)

Through the ages many races have risen and have gone.
But dispersed among the nations of the world we linger on.
Now the time has come to take
The Ancient Cauldron of Rebirth
And fulfill our ancient pledges to the Earth.
We won't wait any longer
We are stronger than before
We won't wait any longer
We are stronger...."

Athena,

Ain't nuthun' wrong with curmudgeons! Or Pagans, for that matter. I'm proud to be a Christian Curmudgeon.

Arminius

Paganplace,

I'll try to find Stirling's work. Sounds intriguing.

My growing list of favorite/profoundly influential books, not in any order:

Moby Dick
The Odyssey
The Killer Angels
How the Irish Saved Civilization
The Lord of the Rings
Thucydides, the Peloponnesian War
Cannery Row / Sweet Thursday (considered to be one book)
The Bible (actually the Gospels)

My favorite song of Isaac's is "Be Pagan Once Again" - about how the Catholics and the Protestants should stop fighting each other and just return to Paganism.

While I don't agree with some of Isaac's opinions, he's a cuddly old curmudgeon and has done a lot for Paganism.

""Someday I got to hear about your sgian dubh. That item is familiar to me, being something that any well-dressed Scot in a kilt will have at his ankle."

Ah, girls, too, modernly. Well, in certain rougher places. :) Someday I should re-hilt this all traditionally and such. I used to actually wear it in a boot periodically, thankfully to no real necessary end. :)

For books, if you like sci-fi/fantasy stuff, I found myself rather intrigued by SM Stirling's 'Dies The Fire' trilogy, ...it's kind of about what happens when useful-electricity and fast combustion suddenly go away from the world, ...it's written by a non-Pagan, (with some pretty careful research and consultation) but it features some prominent Wiccan characters, (who actually end up going off and forming a sorta-Scottish-clan-based society.) It just happened to catch my attention recently, and that kinda-detached-but-informed portrayal is really interesting, and I think captures a lot of the spirit of things. It's not Shakespeare, but you might find it edifying. :)

Paganplace,

I can sympathize. Hunger beats books any day of the week. And sickness will sap one's abilities to damn near anything.

Get your hands on Cahill again if you can. It is worth the read, it is very upbeat, except where it comes to the part about the English mailed boot in the Irish face. That is the stuff of nightmares.

Funny about the effects of books on a person. I first read 'Lord of the Rings' back in 1966. I was hooked from the start, and did nothing else for three days. Would not even talk to friends. 'Moby Dick' was even weirder in its effect. I was in grad school at the time, and getting really bored with it. So I picked up my copy, and began... totally sucked in..... and when I got to the part wher Ismael was at the inn, and eating the clam chowder, Melville's description was so incredible that I actually put down the book, got in my car, drove to the grocery, bought all the ingredients, came back, made clam chowder, devoured it, and felt like a king. And returned to the book.

Arminius

Oh, but I actually used to have the Cahill, Arminius: think I sold that one when I was hungry, knowing there are millions of copies out there when chance comes to replace it. (You may note I'm kind of proud of the library I keep, for all that it adds a lot of mass and bulk to a life that refuses to stay put. :) Must be that Irish love of learning. :) )

I was reading it when, as it turned out, I was too sick to retain much of anything, though. (And there went an awful lot of effort of study right out the window: had a real bad stretch, healthwise that played merry Hel with my memory: a lot of what I read at the time kind of blurs together. And stares at me for re-reading. :) )

Paganplace,

Someday I got to hear about your sgian dubh. That item is familiar to me, being something that any well-dressed Scot in a kilt will have at his ankle.

Arminius

"just occurred to me that the Book of Kells is one reason that I feel so much kinship with Pagans"

Hee, well, maybe if we ever meet in person, I'll tell the story of how my sgian dubh was named. It relates. :)

The book of Kells is certainly beautiful.. I have, (Or used to have: I don't see it around here, may have given it away already;) a little edition of, probably, just the highlights, with lovely high-quality color plates of it. They *glow.* Certainly you can't dispute that they're master-works.

Certainly, there was the Pagan influence on Celtic Christianity, as you can read in the poetry and see in the art, with the spiritual literally entwined with the natural world, and the aspect of transformation so important to Celtic spirituality.

Paganplace,

Well, we have here the beginnings of a really good debate. One between friends, mind you.

First, please ignore the RC version of St Paddy. Please read the book I recommended. I am no scholar on the subject, I wish I were. But that book actually did change my life. I have re-read it many times.

Next. I in no way want to deny any Pagan wisdom before St Patrick. What I wanted to emphasize is that the Irish were illiterate, and he brought them writing and books. Is that a bad thing? Sure, the Pagan stuff tended to be squashed a bit, but there was apparently an enormous melding of the two cultures. Further, the religion that St Patrick brought was known as Celtic Christianity, and was a pretty progressive form. It was only some centuries later that they came under the rule of the Vatican. In other words, the Bishop of Rome finally noticed that there was a place not under his control, and not sending enough money.

Much to discuss here.

Arminius

Hi, Arminius. :)

"Be careful which life of St Patrick you read. The official RC version is bound to have a load of propaganda overlays."

Well, that's kind of the one that's counted, isn't it? :)

"Cahill, in his book, gives full credit for the Pagan influence, and is almost celebratory about it. As to Patrick, he stresses the positive achievements - the virtual end of slavery (Patrick was a slave there, before he escaped), and the influx of learning."

Ah, see, here's where things get offensive. "Learning" was not something that appeared when Christianity turned up... those bardic schools didn't pop up out of *nowhere.* The Irish were in fact *extremely* learned, especially the bards and Druids, I couldn't even *begin* to meet the standards of memorization ancient filideacht required.

The bias that *heavy use of books* constitutes the only 'learning' of any account is more of that Christian cultural imperialism.

Of course the monks wrote a lot of stuff down when someone put em in a scriptorium... They were Irish. :)

As for 'slavery,' it's important to realize that unfree classes in ancient Irish society, (yes, slaves, you could certainly say,) actually had a lot more enumerated rights and potential social mobility than did serfs under medieval Christianity. Not that it was all manner of rockin' to be a slave, but bear in mind, this was in a tribal context, you have to understand.

There were no prisons, not even the concept of one, and warfare was fought for dominance, not destruction. This was the social order, ...obviously not wonderful to modern sensibilities, but to be a 'slave' wasn't like being on a Georgia plantation.

Now, the raiding across the Irish Sea to take people (And, in Welsh class, I always joked, Now, what's obviously happened here is my ancestors came over and stole all yer vowels!) :)

But the kind of dismissal that there was any 'learning' in Ireland before Patrick is just the kind of thing that rankles.

" That learning spawned what can only be described as a renaissance - the monks gathered all the books they could find, no matter what, copied them, and sent them out with missionaries to Europe, which had largely lost these treasures."

This certainly happened. Don't think that when reading in old Irish, there aren't obvious signs of redaction of things 'too Pagan,' but it's certainly a very good thing that anything was saved at *all* from the previously-oral traditions, not to mention the knowings of Europe, in times when the mainland Church was actually suspicious of learning.

"And whatever one might say about St Patrick - that dude had cahones! I wish I had 5% of his courage."

Well, frankly, from reading the Life of St. Patrick, it looks like a lot of those stories are actually somewhat clumsily-appropriated tales of Druidic duels, or in the same style. In them,he actually kinda, well, kills a lot of people.

Paganplace -

An addendum. If you think that the Pagan influence ended with Patrick, then go look at the Book of Kells. There are the Gospels, illuminated with Pagan art. Absolutely fantastic.

Start here: http://www.snake.net/people/paul/kells/

It just occurred to me that the Book of Kells is one reason that I feel so much kinship with Pagans.

Arminius

Thank you for writing. Patrick McCollum and the others who are working to secure rights to Freedom of Religion in inside the prison system are new heros of mine.

I've never been incarcerated, but just visiting prisons makes me aware of how cut off they are from the natural world. I remember the shelter for abused girls I lived in for a while as a teen. The toxic food, the curfews and suspicious rule enforcers who treated those of us who had been violated as if we were the wrongdoers, and the chronic meanness of everything about the place made a hard time in my life harder.

We NEED our real life connections to the cycles of the moon, the turning of the seasons, and the lives of animals and plants, don't we?

How else are we to heal our spirits and bring ourselves back into balance?

We need rituals that are meaningful for us, too.

Thank you for writing about the Goddess, and about those whose spiritual practices are rooted in the Earth.

Praying for all prisoners and captives (and for the people who spend their working hours as jailers) is already part of my spiritual practice; I will add Mr. McCollum and his friends to my prayers.

Hi, Paganplace,

Be careful which life of St Patrick you read. The official RC version is bound to have a load of propaganda overlays.

Cahill, in his book, gives full credit for the Pagan influence, and is almost celebratory about it. As to Patrick, he stresses the positive achievements - the virtual end of slavery (Patrick was a slave there, before he escaped), and the influx of learning. That learning spawned what can only be described as a renaissance - the monks gathered all the books they could find, no matter what, copied them, and sent them out with missionaries to Europe, which had largely lost these treasures. And in the process of copying the books, they created the most breathtaking calligraphy the world has ever known. If I had the money, I would go to Dublin just to see the Book of Kells - calligraphy is a hobby of mine.

And whatever one might say about St Patrick - that dude had cahones! I wish I had 5% of his courage.

Arminius

Yes Terra you can say award winning. We received several actually. I miss it so much… well ok some of it I don’t miss all that much, but most of it I do. It could be a juggling act at times; at least it was for me. I can honestly say that I wouldn’t change a thing though and I would do it all over again if given half a chance. It was a lot of work but we had fun. It made life interesting that’s for sure!

Lady Rowen

I though Mists of Avalon was very inspirational when I was getting started.... everyone was reading it, then. And they couldn't have done the casting better in the miniseries. :)

I've always found it interesting how retellings of Arthurian stories can sort of serve as a connection point between Christians and Pagans, (Mists of Avalon seems pretty influential there, in making it a sentimental story about the 'end of the old ways,') if anyone chose to see it that way. :)

That sounds like it was an awesome magazine, Terra. I've really had a desire to do some documentary/journalism stuff on and for the Pagan community... if only I were in better shape for the inevitable travel. :)

Terra, I want to be you when I grow up.

I had a on line magazine. It was called Ancient Heritage...can I brag and say Award winning magazine? ; )

It was all things Pagan...original poetry, art, music,stuff on herbs as far as healing,book and movie reviews, Sabbat stuff, we had special columns, one on old wisdom, one a humorous take on the Gods called Blessed Be. We did Pagan news and a who's who in Pagandom in the news, First ammendent problems...etc.

It lasted five years then we all burned out. There were 25 writers and as many proof readers and editors...(they kept me for writing and I had my own editor. You can tell why with my spelling and grammar.lol.) It was great...all night sessions of writing or waiting for the art to come in for that issue. It was all original. A article assigned and not done..so an all night job to get it done and to the webwitch. It was clean and fresh..no witches on brooms and all black and pentacles everywhere...I was very proud of how it looked.

We loved it. But we decided that keeping it up would mean that little by little it would slide down in excellence. We went out with style.

Yes, Marion Bradey was a Witch and one heck of a writer. The movie is spectacular. The story it self is beautiful, the actresses wonderful-Julianna Margulies, Anjelica Huston and Joan Allen. If you can find it i think you would enjoy it..though it is a bit of a chick flick. lol. The book is fine..I read it before I saw the movie.
Some folks did not like Mists because it is not the traditional story.

I am glad all is well between us...

terra

Well, Arminius, Mr. Bonewitz certainly can be ...like that in some of his old songs. :)

Actually, though, it's not just about the English: if you read the Life of St. Patrick, there's a lot of very nasty stuff in there about what he supposedly did to the Pagan folk there, ...pretty harsh propaganda, there... If you read a lot of Irish history, there's a tendency to really discount anything that came before Patrick as unimportant at best, let's say.

Frankly, more of the Old Irish is translated into *German* than English, possibly for lack of interest, or certain attitudes about it.

Terra, Dear Lady,

You apologize too much. I just wanted to clarify. There are no bones of contention between us.

I have read a few of Marion Zimmer Bradley's works. I had no idea she was a witch. Fascinating.

'Mists of Avalon'? Give me a lead, please. Arthur Pendragon was a Celt!

You have a mag? Please tell me more. Damn, Lady, you intrigue me.

Arminius

Arminius,
I would not hurt you for the world...please forgive an old Pagan.

Celtic Christianity held a great deal of the old Pagan traditions. The Christian Monks wrote alot of the myths and stories that we know of today, without them the history would have been lost.

I was thoughtless in my posting,and I am sorry.

Have you ever seen the Mists of Avalon? Written by Marion Zimmer Bradley, a Witch. I was sent the movie by the Producer to evaluate for my Mag. It tells the Arther Pendragon story from the eyes of the Priestesses of Avalon.

The song was written by Issac Bonewits the old x ArchDruid... He is a militant Irishman to say the least.

terra

Terra,

For the first time, you have upset me. Not seriously, but I am a bit put out.

Please read 'How the Irish Saved Civilization", by Thomas Cahill. It will change your mind about St Patrick. No snakes, no miracles, just the history. One of the books on my 10 best ever list.

Yes, the Irish got smashed bad by the Brits. Mind you, I am Scots-Irish, and not a little biased. But what England did to the Emerald Isle was stinkin' criminal. But that was after St Paddy. Read and learn - and weep. The tragedy of what that great people endured will haunt me always.

And, on a lighter note: God created whiskey so that the Irish would not rule the world.

By the way, my son is named Patrick.

Arminius

Starhawk,
Exactly why should Israel have anything to say about who enters Palestine? An American innocent of wrong doing deported? And America will say nothing.

This says so much on what Palestine is going through...keeping an activist from teaching people how to grow food and conserve water.

Shameful!

Stahawk...Blessed be!

terra

ooops..I forgot the link I was going to add...for those who have the Irish.

http://www.neopagan.net/IB_Songs_Irish.html#BringBack

terra

Bring Back the Snakes
© 1997, 2001 c.e.
words by Isaac Bonewits
music trad. ("My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean")

'Twas on a bright Midsummer's evening,
An old woman I chanced for to see.
She grabbed both my shoulders and shook 'em,
Saying, "Bring back the snakes to me!"

Bring back, bring back, bring back the snakes to me, to me;
Bring back, bring back, O bring back the snakes to me!

"My land was a jewel most blessed,
My people both happy and free,
Till the preachers came in with their crosses,
And drove all the snakes out to sea."

Bring back, bring back, bring back the snakes to me, to me;
Bring back, bring back, O bring back the snakes to me!

"Yes, 'snakes' was the word that they used then,
For the masters of all druidry,
Whom they murdered, converted or banished,
As threats to their new tyranny."

Bring back, bring back, bring back the snakes to me, to me;
Bring back, bring back, O bring back the snakes to me!

"Now it's past fifteen centuries later,
The results now are clear for to see;
Ireland was better off Pagan,
So bring back the snakes to me!"

Bring back, bring back, bring back the snakes to me, to me;
Bring back, bring back, O bring back the snakes to me!

Then the old woman's face started changing,
Every country and race I could see.
She said, "All lands are better off Pagan,
So bring back the snakes to me!"

Bring back, bring back, bring back the snakes to me, to me;
Bring back, bring back, O bring back the snakes to me!
~~~~~
The Irish in me sees St. Paddy's day in Pride...I am here! I do not honor St. Paddy and I always remember that Patric did not rid Ireland of Snakes but of the religious leaders, judges, bards and conselors of Irish Kings. Those were the snakes...

Drink the green beer and remember the pride of Ireland....remember that we were warriors and poets and it was the Druids that led us.

terra, the grand daughter of a woman from County Cork named May and a Great Granddaughter of an Irishman named William-

And, to Starhawk: Congratulations on your recent 'deportation' from Israel.

Allow me, as one among the least of our merrye companye, to be the first to welcome you, on this the occasion of your, *importation* here. :)

*with the traditional playing of a Black 47 CD.*

(to the tune of 'The Foggy Dew,' uptempo.

"Oh, Mammie Dear... We're all mad over here...
Living In America..."

;)

*putting on some Pogues and raising a little dram of something.* Slan! :)

Probably won't be making too terribly merry, tonight, after this cold I had. But it's a good holiday.

Yes, you may wonder why Irish Pagans celebrate a supposed celebration of our own demise, but we're still here, ain't we? :)

Do miss the pubs of the Northeast, though. :)

Erin Go Bragh! My father was born in the Emerald Isle, and I am now hoisting a green brew in his honor, and in praise to that fair land.

Arminius

*yawning*

OK. :) Back from busy-busy-busy-ness.
Happy All Paddies' Day, all. :)

I really liked your last post, btw, Lepi: I think that 'fundamental interconnectedness of all things' is an important understanding of all this: a lot of Christians who don't understand what we're all about are very used to the notion that religion or spirituality are by *definition* something to impose on reality from outside: ...but ours is a universe alive with spirit, not just a 'thing' made from outside, from which to be 'saved' by words.

Guess we'll see where this discussion goes. :)

And, that's all for today, for me... If I'm restless when I get in after midnight, I may look in, otherwise, tomorrow, I think. :)

Have a good one, all. :)

Hi, JND. Won't have much time to talk today, but on this:

"Why would you trust a manmade system?"

I would ask why do *you,* ...you have a book made by men, and only its own insistence that it's something more than that. I know that's kind of *convenient* to a lot of people, but it's insufficient, in my book.*

" If I ever thought I were following something not divinely inspired,"

Who says I don't think our systems are "divinely-inspired?" We embrace such inspirations as they come,and as they have come: the difference is we don't consider 'Divinely-inspired' to be a substitute for an idea of an 'objectively-true-and-one-and-only way. .'

Quite the contrary, we see the Divine in operation all *over,* and in our own lives: and in each others... Wisdom doesn't come from accepting one view and then setting about tring to 'prove' it.

" but being cobbled together by blind humans groping their way forth ... I just don't get why you seem to prefer that."

Well, you speak of it dismissively, but the fact is that we put together what we know *works,* ...like if you were building a machine, or growing a tree, or some other metaphor... The 'proof' is in the results, and understanding the processes, not taking something on blind belief and *insisting* it's working. :)

" I have no problems with that approach when it comes to science (since that deals with empiricism, so we can grope our way towards truth), but when it comes to spiritual matters, it seems like you can never know if what you're believing is true."

We can know it's 'True Enough,' ...When we find ourselves rediscovering what our ancestors knew, when we find ourselves arriving independently at the same observations, when we celebrate and feel the presence of the Gods, when we walk on the living Earth.

You have to understand, too, that our belief system isn't really *dependent* upon specific 'unknowables' being 'The One Truth.' It seeks to be in harmony with life, not something that *overrides* life. There's no horrible penalty for being 'wrong' about, say, believing we'll head off to the Summerlands, ...I've certainly had plenty of experiences that demonstrate pretty emphatically that we're on the right track as we're given to know the right track, and that's 'good enough to be getting on with' in a world where the Gods are there to guide us.

I mean, the kind of obsessive Christian worries 'What happens after you die,' based on some idea of a once-and-forever judgment if you believe the 'wrong' thing
really just aren't operative with us. The possibility of 'not knowing' just doesn't hold that kind of terror for us. If things look different than I expected between lives, well, OK. One thing about this universe of infinite possibility is, ...I have plenty of faith the Powers aren't out to get us, or looking to screw us, or any such.

We can *deal,* and that, I *know* is true.

Blessed be. :)

JND:
**For me, Paganism is not a religion that tells me what my spirit might experience: it's a system we have made, based on ways old and new, to come together and celebrate what I always *did* experience.

Why would you trust a manmade system? If I ever thought I were following something not divinely inspired, but being cobbled together by blind humans groping their way forth ... I just don't get why you seem to prefer that.**

I can't speak for PaganPlace, but I can tell you that the reason you don't get it is that you insist on seeing the Divine as something separate from yourself, something to which you feel you have no legitiamate claim, and to which you owe extreme gratitude because it deigns to recognize you. I can vividly recall the churches of my childhood teaching that we are nothing but worthless worms without God,and that it's only because of his great mercy that he doesn't crush us as we so richly deserve. Well, worms aren't worthless and neither am I.
Pagans believe that the Divine is inextricably entwined in every rock from a grain of sand to Mount Everest, every plant from unicellular blue-green algae to giant sequoias, in every animal from amoeba to blue whale, and of course, human beings. For this Pagan, divine inspiration doesn't come from an external source, it comes from, as Douglas Adams put it, "the fundamental interconnectedness of all things."

"it's dead, Jim". PP, you bring up some disturbing epistemological points, if you're still listening - just let me ask you re:

For me, Paganism is not a religion that tells me what my spirit might experience: it's a system we have made, based on ways old and new, to come together and celebrate what I always *did* experience.

Why would you trust a manmade system? If I ever thought I were following something not divinely inspired, but being cobbled together by blind humans groping their way forth ... I just don't get why you seem to prefer that. I have no problems with that approach when it comes to science (since that deals with empiricism, so we can grope our way towards truth), but when it comes to spiritual matters, it seems like you can never know if what you're believing is true. Christianity can take you to the root.

"I seem to remember from a Catholic education that Jesus took a pretty dim view of people following him *because* of reports of signs and wonders, though I was never sure how that was supposed to work out.

If I performed a miracle for you in person, would you bow down to me or my Gods?

I would hope not.

Shows of power, even if real, do not necessarily prove *good sense,* or *command of subjective truth, never mind 'objective,'* and never mind 'righteousness.'"

Shnikies - this is a tricky area. As far as I've thought it through, Christianity would claim that we all have enough evidence to believe Christianity (Romans 1:20-21). Jesus rebukes Thomas but he still appeals to people to believe because of evidence (John 10:30).

*waving* I'm glad, Arminius. :) I think I need rest after a long day, may perhaps be up again later if it's too early to sleep, though. :)

First, thanks for the stories about answering the door to a bible-thumper. Cheered me up immensely. I have always believed that each neighborhood should have its own siren, which would go off when these people were sighted. But Mormons should be excepted - not because I agree with them, but because they are universally polite and never pushy.

Next, there is an interesting article in today's on-line Newsweek about gender and racial bias in the campaign.

Arminius

Racism, eh.

On the one hand, I'm tickled that a black presidential candidate with an Arabic name has won primaries in several southern states.
Even though I'm disappointed with Kip Holden's performance,I was glad to see a black man elected mayor of Baton Rouge - I voted for him.
And even though I did not vote for Bobby Jimdal (not because he is Indian, but because I disagree with his stand on several critcal issues), I was glad to see a non-Caucasian could be elected governor in Louisiana. I never thought I'd see the day any of that would happen.
So I'd say we've come a long way as a people and in terms of institutional racism. We won't be where we need to be until we get tothe point where no one even takes notice of skin color in such matters.

On the other hand, in our criminal justice system, a black person is still likely to get a more severe sentence than a white person convicted of the same crime. Our prisons have a disproportionately high black population, which tells me that a black person charged with a crime is more likely to be convicted than a white person.
A black person who commits a violent crime against a white person is likely to get a more severe sentence than a black person who commits the same crime against another black person or white person who commits the same crime against a black person.
Poverty is a frequent contributing factor to crime, and there are a disproportionately large number of impoverished black people.
So there, we have a LONG way to go in terms of correcting institutionalized racism.

Hi Folks! 'Waving to all'
Sorry I have been MIA...some strange virus that likes return engadgements.

What a lovely conversation. Now it is a shame that this is hidden away. It sure beats talking about E-mail, Curse or Blessing? Sheesh.

About a week ago my dogs started barking, only like two small chihuahuas can. I looked out and there was a elderly man getting out of his car with some books in his hand...he was wearing a dark suit. I figured...ummm fun.

The man was walking toward me on the side walk as I was on the porch...behind me a large Pentagram Windchime..beside me a metal urn, filled with handmade brooms...and on the door a sign, Witch In, Potions for Sell, and a large (plastic)Cauldron on the table...filled with plants.

I smiled brightly at him, as he his eyes shifted from place to place. He looked at me and the little silver pent at my neck, and said," I think I have the wrong house." LOL... New Pastor from the new church I think.

~~~~~~
We need to stay here... forget email.
What do you all think of what is going on with our politics? Here is a question..

Where do you think this country is on Racism?

Hugs,
terra

"I've even been known to attempt genuine dialog with them, to no avail. They ask me what I think happens after death, I tell them what I think happens after death, and they counter with, "But the Bible says..."

You can always look like they've brought up an utterly-boring, but very annoying topic: Shake your head and mutter, "Paperwork." :)

Arminius:
**Back to the folks knocking at the door. Someday I will do what I have always been tempted to do. When they offer to explain their views, I will say "Sure, but me first! I'm a member of Nudists for Jesus", and start taking off my clothes. I don't think I would do that unless they came across really bad at the start, but it is always tempting. Shame on me....**

I have been known to answer the door skyclad when I look through the peephole and see a stranger with a Bible in his/her hand standing there.

I've also been known to tell them that I'll listent o them talk about their religion if they give me equal time, then turn and yell into the house, "HEY GUYS! THE SACRIFICE IS HERE!"

I've even been known to attempt genuine dialog with them, to no avail. They ask me what I think happens after death, I tell them what I think happens after death, and they counter with, "But the Bible says..."

Last weekend, I attempted to dialog with a couple who appeared at my door who kept telling me that God created man intending him to live forever and never die before the Fall. I asked where God was planning to put the results of all that being fruitful and multiplying if no one ever died. They left.

"With all due respect, sometimes your words are difficult for this old man to unravel!"

Granted. But look what happens when I take such pains to make it easy. :)

Register any of all that, JND? :)

Hi, Paganplace,

Hoo boy, what a post, I'll see what I can do to reply. With all due respect, sometimes your words are difficult for this old man to unravel!

C S Lewis - read a few of his books. Difficult sometimes. I travel into 'Mere Christianity' with my usual skepticism. Having a good bit of the Celt in me, I will get upset if he puts them down too much. They were a lot higher up the scale of things than they usually get credit for.

Yeah, I've had those folks knocking on my door too. Never had 'em start off about death. Oddly enough, I have no fear of death, and I cannot explain why. I don't entirely buy into the Christian way of looking at it. I never have had a hangup about sin and hell. Without any attempt at a greater explanation, I believe that if I do my best here in this life, I should have a decent chance in the next, whatever it turns out to be.

Back to the folks knocking at the door. Someday I will do what I have always been tempted to do. When they offer to explain their views, I will say "Sure, but me first! I'm a member of Nudists for Jesus", and start taking off my clothes. I don't think I would do that unless they came across really bad at the start, but it is always tempting. Shame on me....

Arminius

*waving to Arminius, btw.* :)

Did I mention I really think that CS Lewis is good for Christians to read? :) It only makes his egregious sorting errors *really irritating,* but there's good thought, there, and I think he was on the reading list of all the Christian teachers I really respected, (generally there's a lot of such teachers' opinions in it when I talk about what I was taught Christianity was *supposed* to be, anyway.)

Does generally cheese me off, though, when he tries to appropriate Celtic culture and its influence on Arthurian myth simply by claiming everything he thought *good* about our ancestors was 'prefiguring Christ,' and thus to be ignored when calling hundreds of tribes and cultures 'hopelessly-degraded and unremittantly-nasty.'

(Apart, of course, from the parts that weren't. Those prefigured Christianity, and had nothing to do with the actual people and cultures involved. And... the thousand or so years of Christian-justified brutality weren't the Christianity, that was a throwback to those evil people I claim as 'noble savages' in need of ...Christianity, even if they came up with a lot of stuff I say was true Christianity... and thus were noble, even if all manner of awful, apart from what I say prefigured Christianity...)

*boggle.*

See what I mean, there? :)

Anyway, if it weren't otherwise, in my opinion, pretty good stuff, (for Christianity, anyway :) ) I wouldn't care, cause people always say things along that line of reasoning while saying things that are far less worth-reading. :)

I think, too, it's very informative for me as a Pagan, about the *positives* of this religion people tend to keep shoving in my face, (Despite being raised to it, it's frankly become quite *alien* to me, and, I think, for most, all driven by convenient assumptions, for weal or woe as it may be) ...something which says that the goodness I see in a lot of Christians isn't *necessarily* entirely in *spite* of the Christianity. :)

Frankly, for a whole lot of Christians, particularly 'missionaries,' they show their motivations: "Aren't you scared of what happens after you die?"

My general response is, at first, "What?"

And, when it comes in context of them disturbing some often-hard-to-come-by rest to bang on my door ...to think of what happens to my dear one if I keel over cause someone decided to wake me up after an exhausting night of painful symptoms...

I was inadvertently witty on one of those occasions, when someone banged at my door like there was some emergency, taking it upon themselves to start my day with: "Have you thought, today, about *death?*"

*Me, half-awake and darkly murmuring,* "Not till you brought it up." :)

Anyway, this is by way of saying, whenever a Pagan speaks, everything ends up being all about some Christian's idea of his Bible and his world, like that's all that matters.

And if you wonder why most Christians don't understand us, ...it's not like we can get a word in edgewise, without that Bible coming into it, is it? :)

Of course, if we want to talk about *Pagan* issues on a thread of that topic, we're being 'intolerant,' ain't we? :)

Regards, though. :)

(And, to LR: my posts of earlier seem to have missed the greetings and pleasantries. Thanks for talking.)

I suppose, JND, let's put it this way: I know this runs entirely counter to certain Christian assumptions of what religion *is,* but I know my religion is real *because* I helped make it, and do so every day.

I know it's real, ('Amply real-enough,' I'd prefer to say,) not only because these are the Gods of my ancestors, but because they *remain* relevant today, and weren't and aren't *dependent* upon human belief or argument or even specific *forms in our minds* for their 'reality.'

I know our ways are functional, because they *function,* and where they don't, I don't feel my soul's in peril to suggest changing them.

Ours is a Goddess who *values* diversity of thought and opinion and perception, and without malice or threat or fear, reality weeds out that which does not function, in time. We're allowed to be part of that process, not considered doomed and damned forever if we try something which doesn't pan out.

The certainty you assert, JND,is to my eyes no certainty at all, only a *desire* for certainty, and a desperate fear that you may not be able to face *uncertainty,* ...and if there's one thing my Gods taught me about *faith,* is that *faith* can *accept* uncertainty, and live.

I accept the possibility that everything I've seen was some kind of show for my benefit... That there's some other reality we see as a shadowplay in our mortal minds, time after time, and the real vastness of spirit looks very different when not-currently-associated-with-a-brain. (I suppose, part of me *counts* on it.) I don't doubt the *benefit* part, though, as the benefits have been clear and manifest already, ...and if there's a Great Harmony to this immeasurably-vast multiverse, that definitely *involves,* and does not *contradict* the slice of it we humans are given to experience. With all the engagement and heart and scrutiny we can *possibly* muster.

So, 'basis?'

The basis is, from birth to breath to death, to rebirth, that we are *part* of this world, not apart from it. We do not hold up a book and deny we are primates. We look at each other and go, 'OK, we're being particularly clever primates right now, let's work this.'

The basis is, we live... in a living world.

Best be about it. ;)

Ah, more distractions. :)

" JND:

""LR: "Yet for the most part we can’t even agree on basic tenets so a set of basic teaching guidelines isn’t going to happen either.""

(Me, interjecting: Personally, I think the importance of that can be overstated. There are many forms within Paganism, but we don't *believe* that we must 'agree' on codified 'basic tenets,' but clearly we have a coherent set of beliefs, views, mores, and to some extent, practices.

At least as much as do such broadly-defined groups as 'Christians,' 'Muslims,' 'Hindus' and the like. )

JND: "Doesn't this bother you?"

Nope.

"How do you know your religion is real?"

I know it's as real as *me,* let's say. Whatever you think the quality of 'real' is, a self-referential book or a strident insistence simply cannot confer this quality.

It so happens I've had some passing-extraordinary experiences, myself, (Miracles, you could say.) but these are not the relied-upon basis of Pagan religion.

For me, Paganism is not a religion that tells me what my spirit might experience: it's a system we have made, based on ways old and new, to come together and celebrate what I always *did* experience.

" The bible makes claims to objective support. You may disagree with those claims or attack them as false,"

Well, yes, I can. Claims of 'objective support' are no basis for *faith.*

These are matters of report, and hearsay, and, insistence that something was 'objectively true' and therefore meant you should bow down to such shows of power.

I seem to remember from a Catholic education that Jesus took a pretty dim view of people following him *because* of reports of signs and wonders, though I was never sure how that was supposed to work out.

If I performed a miracle for you in person, would you bow down to me or my Gods?

I would hope not.

Shows of power, even if real, do not necessarily prove *good sense,* or *command of subjective truth, never mind 'objective,'* and never mind 'righteousness.'

That's one of the central things about the learning process in Wicca: coming to accept and understand our own *power,* and that others claim, which we all have, and the importance of being conscientious of both intents and effects, ...that's not limited to any wonders of magic.

All that claiming to believe in the literal truth of miracles you *didn't* personally-experience means, is that you chose to believe those accounts.

What you choose to *attach* to that belief remains your own responsibility.

"but at least you have some basis to go on"

I don't find that it's much *basis* at all.

The basis is in your heart and your mind and your awareness, or there *is* no basis.

JND,

Thanks for the prompt reply. I can't answer in depth off the top of my head, unfortunately. We differ in places, mostly in in inferred emphasis (sin) and how parts of the bible are viewed.

Please remember, with tolerance, that my entire approach to Christianity is much different from the average. After my spiritual experience, I was not converted, no, I was led into the Gospels. I am still sorting it out.

We will always differ. But at last we have some common ground. Let us agree to disagree.

Arminius

Arminius: I'd say, first accurate notions of God and the Trinity (one being in three persons, the person of Christ being eternally existent and possessing both divine and human natures and wills). Thus Jehovah's Witnesses (Arians), Mormons (Polytheists) and Oneness Pentecostals (Modalists) are not true Christians.

Soteriology (salvation) must also be accurate - we must acknowledge our sinfulness, the justice of God's wrath, the necessity of an atoning sacrifice, the perfection of Christ's sacrifice, and the application of the sacrifice to the sinner by faith. Also that saving faith is never alone: it is always accompanied by regeneration of the sinful heart leading to repentance and forsaking of sins practiced prior to faith. Thus Zane Hodges , Robert Wilkin and other "anti-Lordship" people who think you can sin all you want are preaching heresy.

Biblical inspiration and inerrancy. This doesn't mean that metaphors aren't used (ex. John 10 "I am the vine") or that the Bible cannot use phenomenological language or idioms (as when even we say "sun rise" we are describing the event as it appears to us and using an idiom. We are not making a scientific statement, nor is intended to be so). Thus liberals such as Brian McLaren contradict what scripture says about itself (2 Ti 3:16) and are heretics. Also people like John Shelby Spong (a retired Episcopal Bishop, btw) who either discard large portions of scripture or interpret them in ways apart from authorial intent (grammatico - historical method).

Of course there are problems (the interminable debates on transubstantiation/consubstantiation, Calvinism vs. Arminianism, or "left behind" eschatology vs. preterism vs. amillennialism), but even extremely orthodox Christians (such as Albert Mohler (SBC) and R.C. Sproul (Presby) differ on a lot of these but do not anathematize each other.

JND,

Well, I gotta compliment you - you got 'speaking in tongues' absolutely correct.

But I must agree with Lep, there is a lot of argument among the Christian community as a whole as to what are the core beliefs. I thought she summed it up well. Could you give us your version of the core beliefs?

By the way, I have just started reading C. S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity".

Arminius

"Some sects maintain that certain other sects aren't really Christians."

Because the bible doesn't list tongues as a requirement for salvation, the Pentecostals who say this can be shown to be objectively incorrect and therefore *they* are the ones speaking heresy and are not Christian. Baptism necessitates different churches (Presbies/SBC, etc.) due to differing policies, but mainly these people acknowledge each other as fellow Christians.

Lepidopteryx: "Aside question: If these "tongues" are all supposed to be actual languages spoken somewhere in the world, why are they never a language that is easily recognizable, like French or Spanish? And if a person can suddenly speak this language, why can't s/he translate it?"

I agree with you 100%. The "tongues" practiced by Assemblies of God/Charismatics/Pentecostals are not biblical. 1 Cor 14 says there must always be someone to interpret them. Acts 2 states explicitly that they *are* foreign languages. The fruit of this is disturbing: Benny Hinn, people barking like dogs and laughing hysterically while rolling around on the floor. Catholic apologist Gerry Matatics (of whom I am by no means a fan) once went to a Pentecostal revival where they claimed to interpret tongues. He recited biblical passages in Hebrew (which they thought was tongues). Needless to say the fraudulent "interpreter" didn't get a single word right.

But the larger point is that there is a "mere Christianity" while there is no "mere Paganism". None of the things you list touch on core beliefs - it's like Romans 14 issues (holidays, diet, etc. that Paul says should not cause divisions).

JND:
**LR: "Yet for the most part we can’t even agree on basic tenets so a set of basic teaching guidelines isn’t going to happen either."

Doesn't this bother you? How do you know your religion is real? The bible makes claims to objective support. You may disagree with those claims or attack them as false, but at least you have some basis to go on (ie miracles, 500 witnesses of the risen Christ in 1 Co 15). If your religion is made up, how do you rationalize worshiping your gods and each one compiling her own "book of shadows" with no empirical evidence to validate it.**

You have no objective proof of the resurrection of your Christ.
I don't need a single book that claims to contain all the spiritual knowledge I will ever need.

And stop acting like Christianity has a "belief consensus." Different sects don't even agree on whether certain acts are or aren't sins (drinking, smoking, dancing, cohabitation/premarital sex, homosexuality, to name a few), or on whether some sins are worse than others (Protestants don't differentiate between venial and mortal sins). Different Protestant sects disagree on whether things like "speaking in tongues" are supposed to still be part of the church or a thing of the past.
Different sects disagree on the nature and timing of baptism - dunk vs sprinkle, infant vs adult.
Some sects maintain that certain other sects aren't really Christians.

Aside question: If these "tongues" are all supposed to be actual languages spoken somewhere in the world, why are they never a language that is easily recognizable, like French or Spanish? And if a person can suddenly speak this language, why can't s/he translate it?

LR: "Yet for the most part we can’t even agree on basic tenets so a set of basic teaching guidelines isn’t going to happen either."

Doesn't this bother you? How do you know your religion is real? The bible makes claims to objective support. You may disagree with those claims or attack them as false, but at least you have some basis to go on (ie miracles, 500 witnesses of the risen Christ in 1 Co 15). If your religion is made up, how do you rationalize worshiping your gods and each one compiling her own "book of shadows" with no empirical evidence to validate it.

Well, I dunno, there, LR... The priest who gave this report didn't *mention* a big problem with 'pretenders in it for the perks' to be honest, so, neither of us having the actual experience, I tend to suggest we put our emphasis where *he* suggests.

From the stories we sometimes hear on this issue, (I'm mostly thinking of the occasional vaguely-embarrassing reports of some newbie demanding access to an athame or various spell materials, here: I don't think most spell-work is really appropriate for a prison setting, myself: I'm concerned with the purely-religious practices, for the most part,) ...you'd think there were a lot of people posing at it for the perks or something, but it sounds like that's just not so.

Sounds like there's a lot of sincere seekers in there trying to figure things out largely on their own, and, by the low recidivism rates, obviously deriving something good from there.

I suppose there are easier ways and more perks involved in simply doing Christian religious activities, as things are set up.

In any event, I don't think one can really control people based on one's idea of their intentions.

I don't know what the various prisons have for policies about personal religious books, in general, but certainly, they shouldn't single out Pagan materials as to be unobtainable, only help and guide. As in the outside world, I'm sure those who are insincere or believe this is an easy,'Anything goes' sort of path, will get bored and move along just like always. :)

I suppose there's always the question what materials to *offer,* as prisoners obviously don't get to shop around freely or get a whole lot of opinions out of the community: in some ways it's as it should be, that I don't know any *single* book I'd call comprehensive and all, but this does make it a bit difficult to make recommendations. (Personally, I keep intending to see what's come out in the way of published introductory materials in recent years: it's been a while since I was in proximity to a well-stocked Pagan bookstore.

Pp, in other words at some point in goes from being about the macrocosm, society, to being about the microcosm, the self. What at one time didn’t matter becomes personal in the sense that they still may not care whether or not society approves but they approve of who and what they are. While this makes sense I still believe that there are some whose only purpose is to buck the system and they make it harder for those who have honestly found their path.

My personal opinion is that they need to start with clergy. While they won’t believe it clergy would be able to root out the “pretenders”. At the same time I wish Pagans would work together as a community better. We need to have things like a general basic book list that could be recommended across the board. Yet for the most part we can’t even agree on basic tenets so a set of basic teaching guidelines isn’t going to happen either.

With everything that is approved and passed into inmate’s hands there is a list of things that aren’t. Each book is checked over and many things are considered in assessing them. It will probably come down to having an approved book list so that the books can be added to prison libraries. I have a feeling that unless it is a personal journal inmates will not be allowed personal copies of books. Of course this is where the teacher comes in.

Instead of expecting individuals to have their own books the majority of teaching material will probably have to be typed out and copies made. Studies would then be able to move at individual rates without the problem of one being ready for the next lesson but not having access to the material because someone else is struggling with something but they have the book.

I’m sure that I have covered nothing that hasn’t been thought of by more experienced people. For as long as Patrick has been working with and pushing for these things he probably has had all of this figured out. It wouldn’t surprise me to find that he has had a plan ready and waiting in the wings, book list and all.

Now you have my head going. I’m sitting here thinking of lesson plans like I’m gonna be one of the teachers or something. When I dream I do it big.

In Her service, and at yours
Lady Rowen

Anyway, see what I mean, LR?

Authority has a problem: it can only hurt and threaten and scare and promise *so much,* ...all really based in mere self-interest, however glorified. There comes a point in that mindset where people decide they could do something harmful.

A free spirit of good will and self-determination to make things... themself, better?

Can't stop that, not for long, anyway.

Night, all, and bb. :)

*grounding a bit after long day and looking in with a wave.*

OK. That was not so ordeal-like as expected, so far. :) (Many thanks to Those I thank. :) )

Still not quite sure what we're talking about here, though, Lady Rowen:

"PP you didn’t confuse me. My confusion comes from the fact that individuals who don’t respond in a positive manner to authority are now looking at a religious path that requires each person to take responsibility for their own action."

Think I get this part, anyway, and it makes perfect sense to *me.*

People who may have had the experience of the world being 'me vs authority,' for whatever reasons, ...sometimes decent reasons, may in fact find ways to be rather more *invested* in not doing crimes when they find a way in which doing the more-harmonious thing *isn't about that game.*

It's about something from within, and also, maybe, not experiencing the world as *inherently* based on struggle against and among irrational and unjust authorities.

Let's just say I wasn't exactly-renowned as an exemplar of law and order, myself, before *I* found and started to learn our Neopagan ways, acknowledged that the Gods who'd been with me all along were actually *that,* and that there was something better do do about it than put up a good rebellion.

I was always *principled,* I think, and I certainly didn't have any motivation to *hurt* people, ...but in a personal world where the only order was hypocritical and oppressive, oh, yeah, did I indulge a 'Robin Hood' streak...

And, frankly, in a world where you're considered 'damned' for who you are and how you love, things like property rights get kinda fuzzy.

Cue punk rock.

It's been so long, that I'd forgotten how much finding the old ways actually put all that stuff *right back* into a realm of personal honor: as in you can have some, and as in, that's actually *worth* something.

And I got through a lot of times when I was being treated a lot worse than I had ever thought I could, and I had *that.*

Got to be, somehow incidentally, pretty law-abiding.

*Because* some things that used to be solely about the approval of authorities who'd screw you anyway... Turned out to *matter.* To be *worth* something.

Frankly, for a lot of hungry and desperate years, they were the only things I *had.*

So, no, it doesn't confuse me that in prison people who had the indecency to get *caught* might find a reason to be invested in the world and their fellow humans.

Not at all.

" Now chances are that their defense has been one of attempting to wiggle out of paying the penalty for whatever negative action they committed. And again don’t misunderstand me, my feelings on this are very strong. As I said before I do believe we should stand up for the wrongs we do and then work to correct them when ever possible."

Well, the information here has no demographic about what the people who find Pagan ways in prison actually *did* in the first place. Frankly, it only takes a few joints of Mary Jane or maybe too many Napster downloads to end up there, the way the law's been.

I'm not presuming the majority of these folks are hardened criminals. I don't presume they choose a religious path that ain't exactly what you'd call *acceptable to the tough guys/gals* in there for any 'perks,' either.

We hear a lot about people who don't know better, really, trying to demand sharp objects for ritual reasons, there, (there's always some would-be-Asatru wanting a sword, it seems) ...but this is just another reason actual Pagan and Heathen clergy ought to be able to get in there. Cause that's not what it's *about,* even if you're a free person.

The *real* problems are of the discriminations and abuses and exclusions cited way earlier in this thread.

Those are injustices.

And they also leave a lot of seekers unserved.

Somehow, they seem to turn what they can get into something that stops them from committing more crimes, as it is.

Actually, that doesn't surprise me, once I got over the idea they must be all trivial and about trade paperbacks and fluff and all...

Me, I got no basis to be surprised at all. :)

BB. :)

Lady Rowen,

I did listen to all of you here, and I was suprised, and I am learning a lot. Indeed we do have much in common. I love your posts!

Arminius

Arminius, you are a joy to talk to and I feel blessed to have the opportunity to do so. While I know several Christians who are open minded, my husbands brother is one such, they are not usually the ones that respond when we post. Thus it is that we see more of the condeming judgemental kind here. I honestly believe that if they put aside what they think they know and actually listen to us they would be surprised at how much we have in common.

Namastie
Lady Rowen

Lady Rowen,

I was in no way insulted. I just wanted to clarify the issue. Thanks.

Arminius

Arminius,

First let me apologize for tossing that question out the way I did. I had just finished writing the one above it and was running a bit late for work so I was in a hurry. Next time I will let it ride till I get home.

I have had several people that I was close to suffer form one illness or another. All of them incurable and all for them treated by the dr. as something they could “fix”. I cannot help but feel that this sort of mindset is inside out. In each case I did what I could to make them as comfortable as possible and prayed for an end to their suffering. I would rather mourn them than have them suffer.

As for your response, let me say that I tend to include you when I think of the Pagans here. That comment was in no way addressed to you and I am sorry if you were insulted by it. Please forgive my thoughtlessness and in the future I will try to word things in a better manner.

Lep, while I understand the reasons behind your wishes I’m not sure the last part of that can be done legally. I do know that more and more states are adopting the “green funeral” concept. You may want to check into that as an alternative. I’m attempting to get my husband to look at it as well. He follows a Nordic path and wants to be put into a boat, set alight and then set adrift in the ocean. I keep telling him they won’t let me do that but he’s a stubborn one.

PP you didn’t confuse me. My confusion comes from the fact that individuals who don’t respond in a positive manner to authority are now looking at a religious path that requires each person to take responsibility for their own action. Now chances are that their defense has been one of attempting to wiggle out of paying the penalty for whatever negative action they committed. And again don’t misunderstand me, my feelings on this are very strong. As I said before I do believe we should stand up for the wrongs we do and then work to correct them when ever possible.

Namastie
Lady Rowen

Will be doing that, yep, Arminius. Probably a couple more work-rest-work-rest shifts in it for me tonight. Too behind on resting *and* things to do for a busy week, after this cold, on top of the usual.

(I might be fairly scarce in coming days, incidentally. This has every potential of being quite the ordeal. )

More rest, for now. :)

Blessed be. :)

Paganplace,

Go to bed, dear lady, get some rest. I gotta think on you post; but for a start, you are on the right track for sure.

Arminius

"But my experience for the most part is that they view me with a patronizing pity. But they hate you. I don't understand that at all."

Well, I tend to figure they live in a pretty dark and scary world with a wrathful idea of a God that's the only thing to save em from itself, and are scared and angry as a result... they feel a bit more powerful when they hate people they think their God will punish more, or something.

...in short, they have a need to believe they have the only right way... to save themselves from things that pretty much only exist in that mindset in the first place.

They seem to believe one must claim the perfect knowledge in this one mortal brain, or be forever screwed, and if anything's wrong in the world, they feel it's a matter of self-preservation to find someone to *blame* toot-sweet.

'Witches' are a very traditional scapegoat for any senses of arbitrary punishment coming out of the sky... (I've kind of always questioned the wisdom of running around *calling* ourselves that, but I suppose we'd get the same treatment, anyway.)

I mean, no offense, but it's a similar psychology you find among abused kids. (I've often wondered which came first, that pattern of abuse or that kind of twisting of religion. They seem to feed off each other.) They seem desperate for any sense of control, even if it involves emulating unhealthy things, and hemmed in, perhaps, by an idea that it's much worse outside... if there can *be* an outside. I liken it to such things as Stockholm Syndrome and all.

(You'll note a lot of insistent denials that there can even *be* another view of the world than theirs: ie, "We see the Divine and the world differently" doesn't even *translate.* It's like the *vocabulary* of some of these haters doesn't *include* concepts like 'We see the Divine as *one with* the natural world:' "transcendent and immanent," ie, as I say, "Not separated from or *removed* from nature," only gets read back as insistences that: "You worship the creation, *not* the Creator." "Please stop doing this harmful thing to us, it's wrong," gets read back as "You're unforgiving, you nasty Pagans. I'm justified in doing this, now." They can't seem to think any other way. )

Even the ones who use philosophical language have mostly only ever done the equivalent of using a screwdriver for a pry bar... to them the only *purpose* of the intellectual talk is to convince themselves and others of a particular thing, not to understand or properly try and represent another's point of view. I start popping panels to show someone what's in our belief system, they can't even seem to register what's going on, cause they're still trying to use *their* 'screwdrivers ' to wedge something into me or something. :)

(That metaphor seemed a bit more handy before I wrote it down. :) )

I try to have some compassion, but that doesn't mean adults shouldn't act like adults, and it doesn't give them the right to hurt others.

But, yeah, they're scared. Especially scared to be *wrong,* because to them being *wrong* is tantamount to eternally-tortured death. That kind of leads to aggression, with the Bible as a magic talisman and weapon all in one.

I think there's something that folks in your more liberal camp find yourselves trying to do, ...which is teach your view of a world and the Divine that *isn't* so cripplingly *scary,* ...that's *not* based on unrealistic expectations that the world will be, (and will only be) all right if everyone converts to the same religion...

...Or it ends.

Frankly, they act hatefully toward us because they're taught this will address certain psychological needs and drives they can't acknowledge. They have the 'excuse' that they 'have to' in order to 'save' us from something worse, but the results are the same.

I hope that's helpful... Concentration is really flagging, right now.

Basically, I think Christians who know better, and put actions over creeds, are the ones who stand a chance of getting through to these guys. Maybe not all at once, but things take a while to change. Best of luck, there. :)

Paganplace,

A bit of my own rambling here.

First ya gotta hang in there. I think the world needs such as you - you make us think, and are a decent person.

Next, you said: "Somehow I don't see your Jesus as being really all spooled up about who gets the credit". Absolutely correct, very good indeed!

Now about the basis of morality. I have said all along that anyone who claims that their religion has a hammerlock on it is stumbling around in the dark. All one has to do is look around, it is there, as you and I know. Further, take the parable of the Good Samaritan. Here was a non-Jew, doing a good deed, while Jews passed by, doing nothing. And the Jews and Samaritans were not exactly friends. Lesson: no group has a lock on moral actions. A shame the fundies can't even read the Gospels right.

I got to thinking about you and I being considered enemies by the religious right. Well, you have here on this thread, and so have I. But my experience for the most part is that they view me with a patronizing pity. But they hate you. I don't understand that at all.

Arminius

I'm aware that the loud and obnoxious ones aren't the majority: Heck, I don't live in my own little Pagan world and see only Pagans, now, do I? (Well, not when the health is cooperating, anyway. :) ) I've been out in the world plenty to see that, though, don't worry. :)

There'd hardly be a point to speaking in interfaith forums if I thought you weren't mostly decent folks, probably few of whom actually would defend the idea of our oppression on the basis we can't possibly have 'morality' by your own definitions, thus can't appeal to 'absolute morality' or whatever the heck JND was saying.

I'd be suggesting all good Pagans go to *ground* if that were the case. :)

(though the nastiness on this thread did come right on the heels of a whole barrage of articles in the Catholic press about how awful Pagans are in someone's imagination, ...there are plenty of moderates out there who seem to have had little reason to question these assessments, I suppose. The 'fire and brimstone' crowd are pretty much a constant, anyway.)

It's not really a matter of numbers, of course...

It only takes a few who think they're answering to a 'higher law' when they feel like making life hard for you in one way or another to really put one out.

It's not like when Christians come along and say, "We'd like to help some poor folks out," that a typical Pagan response isn't "OK, let's go do that!" Somehow I don't see your Jesus as being really all spooled up about who gets the credit, I dunno.

All questions of if it's being done for purposes of conversion pressure aside, of course.

Pagans often find we have some trouble giving the food of our festival food drives away, though: frankly, a lot of that infrastructure is run by folks who'd apparently rather not have it to give than take it from 'witches.' *sigh.*

As for history, well, humanity's been through a lot in a few millenia, really. It's clear we are on a steep learning curve about managing this kind of abundance... and some seem to still be in a feast-or-famine, competetive mentality:

I don't think 'tribal' is in all ways a bad thing... of course, Pagans have a different view of what 'tribal' is supposed to *be,* and that means 'tribes getting along with each other,' not 'My tribe as rightful-empire.'

Meandering, a bit, here. :)

But, the world has a lot of ways of peacemaking in it, now, some of which Christianity helped teach, by positive or negative example.

And very few excuses not to use them, particularly in a place like America.

Paganplace,

A tough question. Us humies (slang for 'humans') too often get the tribal mentality, and even the early Christians persecuted Gnostics and such. But once they became the established religion, under Constantine, and got its hierarchy, it became power hungry and defensive. The tribal mentality of 'us vs them' took over. After that, although it was not all bad, there were crusades, many driven by lust for power and loot as well as misplaced religious zealotry. Hell, there were even a few popes leading armies into battle. The reformation began to change that, but things were still brutal for quite a while. Like all of human history, there is a lot of brutality in any nation's past, regardless of religion. Of course, we seldom hear about the good guys, since they don't influence things so much and don't get reported.

I will say that there are more decent Christians than one might expect. They just don't make noise. The two Episcopal churches I attend are all-inclusive, and places of celebration, not fear. I have never heard a 'fire and brimstone' sermon in my life. There is hope.

Arminius

You know, though, Arminius, I sometimes wonder where Christianity went from supposedly spreading a message of peace and compassion and goodwill to one of trying to insist no one else can possibly have any. :)

Paganplace,

I am viewed as an enemy by the fundies, same as you. As you said once before, we stand together.

Arminius

Anyway, Arminius. (Yeah, I saw, btw: sorry if I wasn't clear who I was addressing in the last post: I was suddenly distracted and posted without checking. )

I don't envy you liberal Christians, sometimes, with what you go through from those types. :)

Paganplace,

I am OK with your comments about how you view Christians; too many of us are 'in the face' types with a tribal mentality. All the Pagans I have met here are open minded. OTR certainly is not.

But please see my post above, replying to Lady Rowen.

Arminius

"All I can say, JND revisited,"

You know, Arminius, I was pretty sure this thread'd been tucked away in 'Past Questions' for quite a while, now, come to think of it.

Such wonderful dialogue, though: Notice this?

LR: "Why is it that Christians automatically think that any reference to the bible will make us sit up and say “oh yeah”. We don’t consider it as sacred so why should anything it says make us reconsider our views?"

OTR: "Because you "lie" and say that you, pagans, are open-minded,"

Open-minded doesn't mean we haven't heard every version of the sales pitch before, even if we *weren't* raised Christian.

Open-minded doesn't mean your Bible is suddenly going to define our reality if you repeat the commercial enough times.

Open-minded doesn't mean we can't *make up* our minds.

Open-minded does not mean that someone walking up and saying, "This book is the only truth because this book says it is, and therefore you should obey us, accept my misinformed opinion that your ways are wicked, bend knee, pretend you were given a different sexual orientation, and get politically-conservative," ...is going to get any more logical with more strident insistence.

I know converting people is of great importance to you. But we're not about 'rejecting your God,' ...we simply don't see the world, or the Divine, that way.

Goddess gave us *humanity* and the means to learn to do it *well,* and that's what we strive to live in everything we do.

Maybe we don't need to feel we know *everything,* in the first place.

It's always interesting to hear the definitions of 'open-minded' that come from people who believe there's only one proper way to see the world, and who keep saying the same things to us all our lives and expecting different results. :)

"One time," if you think it's "hate" to tell about our own ways, as opposed to accepting others' defamations, then you don't know us. And doubtless haven't experienced *real* hatred in others.

We certainly treat rape victims better than you seem inclined to. Gods.

You have to understand that to us, rape isn't some minor property infraction according to some Bronze age tribe's rules, one for which most of the scorn is to be applied to the victims. It's a profound desecration of a sacred gift, and a betrayal of humanity.

It's a funny way of calling us 'immoral' to demand we accept that because we don't believe animals are ours to abuse, either.

One Time Reader:

All I can say, JND revisited, is that your tormented twisting of the true message of Jesus has poisoned your mind the same way the ring poisoned the mind of Gollum.

Arminius

Hi, Lady Rowen, not sure where I confused you, there, but as I mentioned I was pretty tired in the course of writing that post last night... I was suggesting that in fact it seems that people who find Pagan ways in prison seem to find in them a way to integrate with a life on the outside and not do any more crimes... possibly *because* it's a morality of personal responsibility, not imposed by an authority: I'd wager that if they responded 'well' to authority and threats of punishment ( if caught,) they wouldn't be in there in the first place: if some find something in Pagan ways to ennoble themselves and live productively, then it seems foolish for the prison system to try and prevent it.

If that's what you meant.

If you meant you're confused by some prisoners *wanting* to take personal responsibility from there on out, well, most people who do crimes feel they're justified in some way, or maybe feel they're already 'doomed sinners' anyway, or otherwise at the mercy of external forces. The kind of poverty that often leads to crime can really make one feel that way, after all.

I would imagine that prisoners to whom Pagan ways appeal may not exactly be a demographic of the hardest cases, mind you: we're not a religion you can exactly receive passively, or any such, of course, but there's probably something there.

I don't hate your God because I was raped. I don't hate your God at all.
I don't hate the man who raped me. Nor would I cross the street to piss on him if he was on fire.
But would you honestly expect me to be willing to risk my life for him? Would you risk your life to save that of a man who raped you? I'm betting that the answer is no.
If that makes me a bad person in your eyes, I can live with that.

his has irritated me for some time and I really would like to understand … why is it that Christians automatically think that any reference to the bible will make us sit up and say “oh yeah”. We don’t consider it as sacred so why should anything it says make us reconsider our views?

And yes I am seriously asking so I can understand.

Lady Rowen

Because you "lie" and say that you, pagans, are open-minded, but as many will soon see with just reading your posts, pagans are no where near being open-minded and are a bunch of BS. In reading your post it is clear that you “hate” Christian believers, have special names you dub them with, consider them unworthy to trust, and hate they love God

You treat animals better then humans, now how bizarre are that. Tell the lady who got raped that she needs to see a counselor and heal her bitterness and hatred so she is not so consumed by it.

Christians once saved by the grace of God but turned you back on him and retreated because of something or someone in life didn't treat you right and now you harbor hatred and blame God for the misdeeds.

The bible calls people like you "backsliders." Who the person JDN is they have the only truth on this forum. Pagans are just plain "screwed-up," people that God will ultimately reject in the end if you continue on rejecting him.

Lady Rowen,

You said: "why is it that Christians automatically think that any reference to the bible will make us sit up and say “oh yeah”. We don’t consider it as sacred so why should anything it says make us reconsider our views?"

Well, not all of us Christians do that. Regardless of what the fundies say, the way of the Gospels is NOT easy. My viewpoint, I will admit, is not typical. I came back into Christianity, after 30+ years of being a non-believer, after a spiritual experience. I had to read the New Testament (except for Revelation, which I have no use for) four times before I was convinced, and even now I have lots of questions. It is a struggle. I don't expect anyone to believe in it just because I do.

Arminius

Lady R,

I am also a believer in euthanasia when there is no chance of recovery and no relief. I cried for a month after having to have a cat put down. I had had her since she was a sickly three-week-old kitten, had raised her on a bottle. When I finally had her euthanized, she was 17, and had arthritis so bad that she could barely walk, and was obviosuly in constant pain.
I have put in writing and given copies to my family members my wishes for myself.
If I am in a vegetative state with no reasonable hopeof recovery, then I wish to be allowed to die, my usable organs harvested for transplant purposes, and what's left of my body placed in a wooded area for scavengers to find.

My grandmother died with a combination of ovarian cancer, Parkinson's disease, and Alzheimer's disease. At the time of her death, she no longer recognized family members. When she spoke at all, it was to my mom's dad, who died when my mom was 16. She had to have baby food spooned into her mouth, and often had to be reminded to swallow. Food that had to be chewed was out of the question. She had to be diapered every couple of hours. Not only did she have no control over her bladder or bowels, but she was not even aware of it when she soiled herself. When she died, she weighed less than 90 pounds.
I have no intention of ever getting to that point.

Lady Rowen,

I am in full agreement with death with dignity. Fortunately, I have never been faced with that - those family and friends that have gone all went suddenly. I am thankful for that.

Yes, my path is my own. And your path is you own. But... I have this strong suspicion that they will meet at the top of the mountain.

Arminius

This has irritated me for some time and I really would like to understand … why is it that Christians automatically think that any reference to the bible will make us sit up and say “oh yeah”. We don’t consider it as sacred so why should anything it says make us reconsider our views?

And yes I am seriously asking so I can understand.

Lady Rowen

For one hot moment there I thought we had come to a meeting of the minds … agreed to disagree as it were. I should have known better, ah well optimism dies hard with me.

PP: this is why I get confused at times. Those same people who didn’t respond well to authority are drawn to a religion where one of the biggest things required is to take responsibility for your own action. There is no passing bad or harmful behavior off as something brought on through the negative influence of (insert item of choice here). Don’t take that the wrong way; my feelings are very strong on this issue. I believe that no matter who you stand up and take responsibility for the wrongs you do, and then work to correct as much as you can.

JND: My grandmothers were both wonderful ladies. I have always considered myself blessed to have had my grandparents in my life for as long as I did, they taught me a lot. However I can assure you that none of them had anything to do with my following a Pagan path. I found the Lady and Lord in an herb garden.

Lep: Wonderful post, I agree with you whole-heartedly. I’m a firm believer in children being most curious about those things we try to hide from them. If we make the information age appropriate it would go along way. I still remember my son at 2 years old asking me why he was a boy and his sister was a girl. I gave him a very age appropriate answer, I told him that he was a boy because his pee pee was on the outside and she was girl because hers was on the inside, he looked at me and responded with an “oh, ok” and that was the end of that for a couple of years.

JND: Personally I don’t see that as wrong as long as it is done in a compassionate and humane way. But then I’m also a firm believer in euthanasia for people. Case in point would be both of my grandmothers … one had a brain tumor and was in a coma, they wanted to hook her us to life support, why? As my mother pointed out to the dr. they don’t do brain transplants so what was the point of keeping her alive … she also had a living will which the hospital disregarded … the dr. said that as long as she was alive they had to do what they could to keep her that way, he didn’t have a reason other than she was a human being. The other grandmother had a stroke. They hooked her up to life support and did test after test to determine how extensive the damage was. Two weeks later, after repeated attempts by my mother to see the dr., my grandmothers’ fingers and toes were black. At this point my mother, after again being told that the dr. was unavailable, said to my stepfather that she was going to have the lawyer contact the hospital. Miraculously the dr. showed up and sat the family down. He told them the tests had shown that she was beyond help and his recommendation was to discontinue life support. Past time was my thought. Certain illnesses or condition should not be treated with the “this can be cured” mindset. There is a time when the individual in question should be given the option of terminating, death with dignity.

Again everything comes down to “Your path is your path”

Lady Rowen

Oh, but I think I got this one:

"I believe humans (even vilest ones) have a stronger claim on our allegiance and love than any animal. How do you answer this conundrum?"

It's not a conundrum for us cause our beliefs don't lead us into one. Nor is the store of love in the universe or a person limited or apportioned by these 'judgements' of yours.

" The Bible tells us that *humans* alone are created in God's image."

Our Gods don't teach that. They're pretty well-known for appearing with or *as* animals all over the world.

JND:

Animals vs humans - depends on the situation.

I believe that animals, humans, plants, fungi, microbes are all part of the Divine. Does this mean I won't defend myself if attacked by an animal? Of course not. Does it mean that I won't treat myself if I am ill? Of course not. The survival instinct is also a part of our divine nature. Everything fights to live - you win until you lose.

If I have to choose between saving the life of the man who raped me and the life of a stray dog, I'm going for the dog.

If I have to choose between saving my daughter's life or the life of one of her cats, I'll save my daughter - who would in all likelihood turn around and go after her cat.

Do I value my daughter's life over that of her cat? Yes, because I love her. And I love her more than I love the cat.
Do I value the life of a stray dog over that of the human being who violated me? You betcha.

My Goddess, though, ain't reality a mirror, sometimes. Does JND actually look at a kitty and say, "You embody the worst parts of humanity! But you get off the 'hook' for being a 'mindless beast!' "

I sure wouldn't want to be treated like you view cats. Our view of the Gods is They ain't like that.

It's not *love* to see the worst in things and then claim that only you could love such a horrible creature, despite their terrible doomed horribleness. That's a dynamic of *abuse,* JND, not love.

They're being kitties, that's all. And, of course, part of the living spirit of the world... Embodying, first and foremost.... Cat.

And, *Kitty!* Nature red in toof and kiiiiiitty-claws... :) (OK, I confess I get like that around the dear creatures a little too much. :) )

And, how we condemn animal abusers is very simple, JND. It's causing suffering to feeling creatures... It harms the creature, it harms the doer of it, and it harms our relationship with the spirit of the world, not to mention between our species.

You have to understand that we *love* the world and our fellow creatures in it. They are our *kin,* and we're *part* of all this. We don't need some idea of an abstract judge and punisher to tell us how to treat our family.

And, JND, you really think Mormons are closer to Pagan than Christian? That's interesting, we consider them Fundies with an *extra* Bible. That's like, *more* Christian or something. ;)

Lep,

I'm with you - my three cats and two dogs, all outrageously affectionate, are beloved members of the family. Two of the cats I took in from someone who was moving to a place that did not allow cats.

Well, JND, I'm reassured to find out that you like cats. And I looked up Ragdoll cats on the web, having never heard of them. Sounds like they make outstanding companion beasties.

Arminius

Lepidopteryx:
"(my fleshly instinct is to hate them, which is wrong)."

"It isn't wrong for you to dislike cats - it's wrong for you to harm one simply because you don't like cats."

Just to clarify, I meant my fleshly instinct is to hate ailurophobes (NOT kittens). But I feel this is wrong. I believe humans (even vilest ones) have a stronger claim on our allegiance and love than any animal. How do you answer this conundrum? The Bible tells us that *humans* alone are created in God's image.

Ok to move beyond polemics, what do you think?

**You've got a compassionate heart, but you can't explain why on your world view.**

Sure I can. They're living creatures, co-denizens of this living planet, therefore they deserve my respect and help. And yes, I feed hungry people too. I've also taken in people who had no place else to go.

**Seriously, how would you condemn sadists who would drown unwanted kittens, or euthanize them (my fleshly instinct is to hate them, which is wrong). On what objective (not emotional) grounds are they wrong?**

Harming none, do as you will. Harming none - that's critical. "As you will" doesn't just mean "whatever you want." As Terra has so eloquently explained on other threads, it means making sure that the force, the energy, the power of your intent is not malicious. Killing an animal that is causing you no harm (unless you are planning to eat that animal) is malicious.
It isn't wrong for you to dislike cats - it's wrong for you to harm one simply because you don't like cats.

"All of our pets were refugees."

You've got a compassionate heart, but you can't explain why on your world view. Seriously, how would you condemn sadists who would drown unwanted kittens, or euthanize them (my fleshly instinct is to hate them, which is wrong). On what objective (not emotional) grounds are they wrong?

May God grant you wisdom. I believe morality is *transcendent*.

If I didn't live in this concrete den of iniquity (NYC), I'd probably have 6 cats as well.

JND:

I've seen pix of Ragdoll cats, but never owned one. All of our pets were refugees.

My husband adopted one of our 6 cats from a shelter before we met.
One is a kitten who showed up on our doorstep cold, wet, and hungry after a storm.
One is from a litter that a friend found in a dumpster - sealed in a box.
Two are from a pregnant stray that my daughter's dad took in.
One if from a litter that my daughter found in the park - closed up in a box with their dam.
The dog came from the pound.

Lepidopteryx: out of curiosity are your cats Ragdolls?

JND:
Maybe YOUR cats are like that - not mine. Our cats curl up in the bed next to us, groom us, and bring us portions of their kills. They embody some of the best characteristics of human beings - compassion, affection, generosity. They are most definitely not mindless.
Perhaps your cats behave badly because you expect them to.

cat analogy: we love cats, though they are narcissistic, manipulative, callous, cruel, condescending, lazy, arrogant, proud, etc. They embody the worst characteristics of humans. Cats get off the hook because they are beasts. The amazing thing is that Jesus will forgive you if you repent and have faith. We are mindless beasts compared to God, and yet he has shown the mercy of becoming one of us.

JND:
**But liberals are increasingly think it's their *right* to indoctrinate children. They think they have greater rights to people's children than their parents. If more pagans thought as you, paganism might be more accepted. Please ask yourselves if on occasion, the liberals don't go too far in being "fundamentalist".**

I'm not sure what you mean by "indoctrinate," but I have a hunch. I see no problem with my child being told in health class how her body works, and how boys' bodies work. (She has known the anatomical difference between boys and girls and where babies come from since she was four). I have no issue with her being taught what a sex drive is and that some people find themselves driven towards the opposite sex and that some people find themselves driven towards the same sex - that's biology. I don't want her told that EITHER is right or wrong - that's religion.

How exactly do you equate Paganism with "liberalism?" One is a religion, the other is a political bent. Not all political liberals are Pagans an not all Pagans are politcal liberals.
And Pagan is a religion - please capitalize it. You don't see me spelling the name of your faith with a lowercase c.

**you seem to have been raised with great light**

Actually, I was raised Southern Baptist, but it just never felt right to me.

**I'm a calvinist, and I've done all I can do, since you have all the light you need.**

I do indeed have all the light I need - I have all the Light there is. As do all living things.

** I commend you to God's hands. May he deal mercifully with you.**

She always does.

Lepidopteryx:"I don't want Paganism taught in public schools any more than I want Christianity taught in public schools. That's not a public school's function. The school's function is to teach my child about math, art, science, grammar. Teaching her about religion is MY job."

At this point I must disagree with Dr. Falwell and give you an amen. School is not the place for moral instruction. It *should* be done in the home. But liberals are increasingly think it's their *right* to indoctrinate children. They think they have greater rights to people's children than their parents. If more pagans thought as you, paganism might be more accepted. Please ask yourselves if on occasion, the liberals don't go too far in being "fundamentalist".

Lepidopteryx/Lady Rowen: you seem to have been raised with great light (although LR I hope you weren't influenced to paganism by your LDS grandmother, since LDS is more pagan than Christian). I'm a calvinist, and I've done all I can do, since you have all the light you need. I commend you to God's hands. May he deal mercifully with you.

PP, take care of yourself, lady. We need you around for as long as possible.

Yep, Arminius, we do a lot of those. :)

Sorry about fading out on the conversation so suddenly, had a chance to get a little done here, as this brutal cold left me more than a bit behind. (Yes, sometimes frail health as well as vigor can make you really appreciate the living Earth. :) )

Hi, again, Lady Rowen. :)

Not sure how some of *that'll* be received over there. But, hey. :)

Frankly, I think that the very things we have in common with so many other humans, (that some folks don't want to hear about from us) reside in many of the things we consider *virtues,* and, well, the good stuff, ..the positives.

A lot of Christians will try to claim we have no morals because our religions aren't set up ...like *government,* frankly, full of proscriptions and rules *against* things and all.

But, we do speak a lot of positives and virtues that I don't think too many out there would find so uncommon.

...Which is really probably the kind of thing folks in prisons, among other places, ought to get in any flavor they darn well like, if you asked me: it's not like the place is full of folks who responded well to authority. :)

And, a little rest of the eyes turned into quite a nap. Perhaps more on this, tomorrow. :)

Thank you to those who came to my defense, although it shouldn’t have been necessary.

Terra thank you, coming from you that is indeed high praise.

My grandparents were Baptist and my sister and I attended church with them often. My grandmother ran across a pamphlet at church that showed how to read the bible in a year, it was a study course, so we did. I may not be able to quote scripture but I have read it all several times. When my grandmother passed over I was gifted with her bible. My other grandmother attended the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of the Later Day Saints and we attended services there as well. So please do not assume that because I am Pagan I am ignorant of Christian teachings because I am not.

Actually I have no problem discussing the bible in the sense you mean. My problem stems from those who will see my opinions as offensive. I have had discussions in the past with people who came back later and informed me that their minister told them not to talk to me any more because I was a demon. Rather odd way to discredit me but there you have it. Apparently the minister took exception to the question “Who lied, God or the snake?”.

I am Witch. I take that title with honor and pride. I have worked hard to achieve the level of Second Degree. I am still learning and will be for the rest of my life. I try my best to walk in balance. I am no oath breaker nor do I see the world through rose-colored glasses. I work to make the world a better place for all that live here. What you will find odd is that I feel compassion towards those closed minded bigots who find it impossible to see past the blinders society has placed on them, they miss so much of the beauty and wonder of this very diverse world.

As for my being “open minded” … we all have a point where enough is enough. I firmly believe that your path is your path, and I can respect that so long as you do the same. When someone refuses to show my religion the respect they demand I give to theirs I draw the line. If my comments comparing some people to sheep offended you then maybe I hit the nail on the head and you have a guilty conscience. I have yet to be rude to you but keep pushing and you will get what you A) ask for, B) accuse me of and C) deserve.

JNR,
At least you realize that Pagans are not baby killing, devil worshipping monsters, however you seem to have a difficult time accepting that we do have a moral code that we live by. We have structure and ethics as well and being as we have multiple Gods and Goddesses we are certainly not “Godless” as some have accused us.

What I do not understand is the relentless attempts at showing us “how wrong we are”. Each of us has explained that we have, at one time in our lives, been exposed to Christian teachings. These teachings didn’t ring true for us so we went seeking elsewhere. As I see it religion is a very personal thing. “Let each follow the path that is right for them.” Accept that you will not convert us and go on with life, for this bunch is very strong in their beliefs.

May the Mother open your heart, eyes and mind to the beauty and wonder of Her.

Lady Rowen

Paganplace,

Right you are about word games. Morality just is not there.

Lep,

House blessing? Cool, we do that too!

Arminius

Arminius,

You may be right - besides, I have a house blessing ritual to finish writing.

Yeah, Arminius, *certainly* there's no morality to be found in word-games and "It's Moral if Christians Do It."

Lep and Paganplace,

I submit that it is time to ignore JND/Anonymous/Believer. To repeat, 'Never try to teach a pig to sing...'.

I did not even bother to read his post. Life is too short to waste time with such pseudo-intellectual flatulance.

Arminius

And, I'll add, JND: you show the contradiction in your projections upon me right here:

"Again - you appeal to a universal standard of morality, but your own worldview undercuts such an appeal. Since there is no universal standard of morality (as a logical consequence of your view), you have no right to get indignant if people don't follow it."

You *claim* I appeal to a 'universal standard of morality' (because you believe any morality must be 'universal' ....and then claim that you know that there can be none in my worldview, thus I'm contradicting myself.

No. *You're* contradicting yourself in the course of claiming to know what my beliefs are all about.

Yeah, yeah, JND. When we start writing the dictionaries, we'll let you know. ;)

Dictionaries, or books of any kind, including your Bible, don't entitle you to define other's beliefs for them, or defame them to others.

Nor can you claim we have no morality, just because we don't believe it's laid down as 'absolutes' in some books, either.

Your religious view of us is only relevant to your religious view, which isn't even the only Christian one, clearly.

There's also a difference between you thinking it's up to proselytizing Christians whether or not to 'allow' Pagans to be openly Pagan, (or just openly not-interested in their Christianity) without being discriminated against in the workplace, ...and us knowing we have civil rights and religious freedom in this nation, whether you happen to like it or not.

We're not 'afraid' of your Bible, we're frankly just sick of having it pushed in our faces by people who insist we're of low character to begin with. Or by any darn Christian that may happen to feel like it, or want to force it on us, or lie about us, or deny us our civil rights cause they can claim to be trying to 'save' us by various abuses.

I'd ask, what are *you* afraid of if you have to defame us and try to force us into silence about our honest lives?

What are you afraid *you're* going to hear when you try to ban media that *don't* defame us?

There are other people in the world, man.

We have every right to our religion, and it doesn't include your self-referential Bible.

You use some pretty thin and fallacious arguments, usually based on false premises, to try and justify some pretty nasty treatment of ourselves, and then expect us to sit down and listen to more of it whenever you darn well feel like it?

Forget about it.

What's *dangerous,* JND, is *teaching kids... and adults,* that another religion is analagous to *drugs.* What's *dangerous* is teaching them they'll suffer eternally if they don't believe someone tells them what a book says, and that the rest of the world is evil and immoral and out to get them.

Lies are always dangerous. especially the ones you tell yourself. And they have a way of coming back to you threefold.

And, yeah, Arminius, I know it was you. I'm not always sure the 'blocking' is blocking, mind you, there's a lot of posts, and computers aren't perfect.

JND:

If Lady Rowen's Christian co-workers can wear their religion on their sleeves without fear of losing their jobs, why should she not be able to do the same? If they can openly discuss their holy writings at lunch without fear of reprisal, why shoyldn't she be able to? Fair is fair.

You seem to think that it's her own fault that she must censor her religious views, that she just needs to adopt the majority religious persuasion and then everything will be groovy and her worries will be over. Why not suggest that her co-workers get a copy of "The Spiral Dance?"

**You must understand that as people who don't just regard religion as a pastime or a therapy, who regard it as having real, eternal consequences, it is *dangerous* to allow, (for example) teachers to teach children paganism.**

I assure you, I do NOT consider my religion a pastime or a form of therapy. It's not something I do in my spare time, and it's not a spiritual fashion statement. It's how I live every minute of my life.
Please tell me where you have observed Paganism being taught in school. From the time I was in first grade, I can recall every school day opening with the Pledge of Allegiance and a prayer. When I was younger, the prayer was recited over the loudspeaker, and in later years, it became "a moment of silent prayer." That moment, however, was always enede by "in Jesus' name, Amen>" ober the loudspeaker. I don't recall ever being led in casting a circle before starting class. During my brief stint as a teacher in the public school system, I don't recall Paganism 101 ever being part of the curriculum.
I don't want Paganism taught in public schools any more than I want Christianity taught in public schools. That's not a public school's function. The school's function is to teach my child about math, art, science, grammar. Teaching her about religion is MY job.

How exactly does our worldview undercut morality? Do we advocate murder? No. Rape? No. Theft? No. Dishonesty? No. Cheating on your spouse? No. Cruelty to animals? No.

When it comes to religious discrimination, I appeal to the First Amendment - not to a book of scripture. I have EVERY right to demand that those in positions of authority abide by the First Amendment. And I'd say that the one commandment "An ye harm none, do as ye will" encapsulates seven or eight of your ten.

Lady Rowen: you seem unwilling to dialog with the people in your workplace about the Bible, yet you seem to expect they should just allow you to wear your paganism on your sleeve! What are you afraid of ? Why not get a bible, read it and discuss it with them? You can easily do this without *admitting* to be a Pagan, and it will demonstrate you are open minded. I'd recommend you start with the Gospel of John, the Gospel of Matthew, Psalm 23, Psalm 19 and 1 John.

To all (LR, PP) who pin their hopes of acceptance on increased education, and clearing up misconceptions, etc. This is futile. I (and I suspect most Christians) know you don't go around sacrificing babies to satan, etc. I'd guess any misconceptions I have are fairly minor (my definition of 'familiar spirit' was almost the same as on dictionary.com). Paganism denies a monotheistic view of the universe and it denies that Jesus is the only way, truth and the life, whose death cleanses away the sins of those who have faith in Him. You would agree paganism denies those propositions, and *that* is the only fact relevant acceptability of Paganism.

You must understand that as people who don't just regard religion as a pastime or a therapy, who regard it as having real, eternal consequences, it is *dangerous* to allow, (for example) teachers to teach children paganism. I feel we are talking past each other in this analogy: it's like Pagans are talking about how bigoted and obnoxious it would be to outlaw Hawaiian shirts (as it would be), and Christians believe it would be wicked and sinful if people were allowed to sell drugs to youngsters. The epithets we hurl at each other reflect the seriousness with which we regard the fundamental issue.

Again - you appeal to a universal standard of morality, but your own worldview undercuts such an appeal. Since there is no universal standard of morality (as a logical consequence of your view), you have no right to get indignant if people don't follow it.

Arminius/Nemo: Robert Turkel of Tektonics has a harmonization of Gen 1&2, but it brings in aspects of Hebrew (which I'm not familiar with) to demonstrate the language describing the creation of man vs animals in ch 1 & 2 is not contradictory: http://www.tektonics.org/jedp/creationtwo.html. Warning - if you think I'm rude, he is very 'in your face'.

Hi, Paganplace,

They let me back in, after blocking three totally harmless posts. I am Nemo, by the way.

Apparently some people need demons to blame in order to justify themselves. It's gotta be somebody else's fault seems to be the imperfect reasoning. The demons of Anonymous and his ilk are anybody that does not agree with him.

My acquaintance with Paganism is due mostly to you gracious Ladies on this site. Of course I had heard of it before, and scanned a few web sites. Somehow, I just felt interested, never threatened. Now, of course, I know you folks are a threat to nothing; indeed, you are a great asset to humanity.

Arminius

Trying to get back here.....

I think, Nemo, the only people who find that 'gap' surprising are those who feel the need to claim that only one religion can possibly confer any decency on a 'fallen' world.

Historically, that's tended to be why so many in history have been *so attached* to the idea that their idea of 'Witches' (not to mention of Jews and Pagans and aboriginals and later Catholics) was real, and responsible for all manner of evil in the world.... its tendency to keep people in line and under control:

I mean, "Disbelief in witchcraft is the "*greatest of all heresies?*" "

Greatest?

Isn't *that* an interesting thing to say.

Why do you think they'd say something like *that?*

Guess some of those types aren't used to trying to apply those dark fantasies to people empowered to *talk back.*

One gets the impression they don't like that part so much.

It has to do with that 'Jack Chick' mindset, really: they sort of populate their world with 'demons' and apply it to what they call a 'spiritual war' ...in which, they of course, get to feel immensely-powerful, yet, in their minds, innately blameless and unaccountable for anything they may do. When reality doesn't agree, they just try to shout it into submission.... or all those other tactics we Pagan folk and even liberal Christians find ourselves subjected to.

They basically seem to feel, and often say, that anything they do in the process, however wrong or dishonest, is for some 'higher good,' and of course, claim to be 'persecuted' when the people *they* try to persecute say they're telling lies about us.

The fact is, there's a fair amount of really gnarly stuff out there that filters into more mainstream Christianity, in the form of 'occult experts' and 'Ex-Witches' who are generally mentally-ill and roundly-discredited about their claims about 'Satanic conspiracies' in Wicca and the like.... but still quoted by those who try and claim even the more-moderate sounding defamations we hear out of the Catholic press and the like.

Of course, to some minds, teach better, and they'll just say it's 'Evidence of the cover-up,' and on it goes.

Pagan theology is essentially pretty simple, of course, ...to have some understanding of us is mostly about peeling away a lot of layers of assumptions... Assumptions that a lot of folks happen to be rather attached to, unfortunately.

Friends,

Lady Rowen summed it up above, the quote from Heinlein's character, Lazarus Long: "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time, and annoys the pig."

Odd that the gap between a liberal Christian such as myself and Anonymous is as great as the gap between him and you, my Pagan friends. Actually, not odd, but sad.

ARMINIVS

MM, Terra.

Yeah, I think it's pretty pointless in this case (If it's not a sure sign of a troll when someone keeps saying 'goodbye' in a passive-aggressive manner and not *going,* I don't know what is.)
There are plenty out there who will try to stir anger in hopes we'll say something they can use as a 'weapon' against us...

Which of course shows that they came in wanting to find 'enemies' in people who wish them no harm, then call us 'hypocrites' for not being more 'Christian' than they about it.

I know it makes Believer *happy* that sometimes we just have to hide, or even accept the defamation of ourselves in our walking-around lives, and that's where the *real* hypocrisy lies.

We have to remember it's our own belief that people are *not* sheep, even if that's actually kind of what their religion teaches them. (Frankly, if they do believe that, certain folks have a funny way of showing it, if you asked me, even if they wear enough sheepskin to upholster New Zealand.)

We also have to remember Lady ain't demanding for us to martyr ourselves, even if our American freedoms of themselves need defending.

For everyone, even if some folks are short-sighted about it, or assuage their sense of powerlessness with hatred, and projected fears of their idea of 'witchcraft' and enemies and 'holy wars' and the like.

I'll say, Believer, if it 'undermines your religious beliefs' for others not to accept your slanders and defamations and oppressions, (and comic books) then I think you should listen to the fellow Christians who say those beliefs about others are wrong.

From what I was taught about Christianity, Christian faith isn't meant to be that fragile.
(Theoretically, you'd think something supposedly built on a Rock Of Ages wouldn't be so darn paranoid about sappers. :) )

What you're talking, Believer, is just 'mob mentality.' Insistence and hostility does not make 'truth' of what you say.

You'll call everyone else in the world a 'liar' or a 'deceiver' and try to make the facts warp to fit your vision.. So used to it, I think, that you can't see reality any other way, but still it doesn't seem enough for you: always looking for another enemy or demon to blame... to the point where you advocate open injustice.

You should listen to your fellow Christians who say that's not supposed to be the Christian way. (Not try and silence them, really.) They do play a lot better with others.

To us, it's just that no good can come of the means you advocate, not for anyone.

One more try. Actually, I am the guy who took his handle from the name of the Germanic leader who decisively defeated the Romans in 9 AD. My posts are being blocked by the moderators. Anonymous must have gone to them whining and groveling.

Lady Rowan,

Goddess Bless you daughter...You always could write a good poem. ; )

Beleiver...
Witch is a proud thing to be! A good and Kind title to achieve. I worked hard to be called Witch.

A Sorceress is not a Witch, two different things. WE are different that is true...the same as Hindus are different from Buddhists and Catholics are different from Jews. Not worse, not better...just different. No demons, no devils.

I know that you will not open your mind enough to understand...so this is wasted motion, but I keep trying to find the right key.

terra

Ah, what can you do, Arminius, there's someone who had an uninformed opinion of us all along and has only sought to 'prove' it all along.

I suppose this *is* a problem we have to deal with all too often in terms of issues like this... as we can see, it's hard to reason with people who have been taught we're the bad guys, and to see anything we do in that regard, and believe that view has Biblical authority or some such.

Frustrating, when trying to have a conversation... not so funny when the person who believes they have a right and duty to oppress you has some kind of power or other.

Probably a further problem, still, when these 'faith based initiatives' have turned a lot of prisons, particularly the privatized ones, into what some think is their personal captive audience for evangelical conversions and the like...

And those probably aren't too interested in having other clergy see how things are in there, either, I'm sure.

One gets the impression it's convenient for them to claim we're a 'cult' on one hand, and too 'disorganized on the other, as suits them. Not to mention all the deniable bureaucratic dirty tricks (or brazen exclusions and discriminations) I see no need to pass along as helpful suggestions to our oppressors, but have witnessed aplenty, if someone has it in their head we're 'fair game.'

Some of the dirty tricks reported above in the quoted report way back there, for instance, can present real problems when there's people that need help or support. Or are just trying to live.

And I think it makes a compelling argument just *why* our public institutions need to be religiously-neutral, with reasonable accommodation for all: frankly, we can see here it doesn't necessarily take much for someone to start deciding they have 'good reason' to favor one and exclude others.

We've even got someone claiming they support discrimination against Pagans because they say 'You're the discriminatory one,' apparently just for being there.

It's a regret of mine that I don't think I'll be able to go in and help directly with the prisons, at least without a miraculous recovery from what keeps me by the Net so many out of my days in the first place.

But I think especially when it comes to people held captive, these things may be a special concern for Pagans.... Many of us know what it's like to have to learn in secret or even under hostile conditions, after all.

I suppose I shouldn't worry too much on that count, given I didn't exactly learn under ideal conditions myself, ...and that low recidivism rate among those who find Pagan ways in prison must mean something's going right in there, but...

It certainly makes me think the prisons are the *last* place certain people ought to be bringing their 'culture war' on us.

'Believer':

Ah, yes, in your hatred muster the majority, and harangue it into the mob mentality. Punish the innocent simply because they are different. What a perversion of the message of the Prince of Peace.

You make me want to vomit.

Arminius

Lady Rowen:

"Well now I feel silly. I read that post over several times checking for typos and still managed to miss several important ones. Any one wishing for clarification please let me know and I will gladly post it. For now here are corrections on the ones I found:

I think it is important that we dispel the myths and so away with the untruths.
That should be do not so.

If we it them so
That should be: If we make is so"

My apologies to everyone.

Lady Rowen

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Silly is an understatment. You post underminded other religious beliefs as much as anyone elses did on this thread. You call this statement showing "dignity and decorum?"

"You can’t blame a herd of sheep when they follow their leader off a cliff, and the same is true for religions whose teachings are those of “we are the one true way and everything else is false”. They’ve been programmed for how many generations, and we know that programming of that sort is difficult to break."

My advice Witch, is keep it to yourself. Ever wonder why the "majority of people don't want you around or talking about your sorcery? There is strength in numbers and sometimes, but more not often then not, the majority speaks volumes.

I will grant you this, go back in the closet to keep you job because they will find a way to terminate a Witch and I wouldn't blame them for it because based on the above statement by you, you are discriminatory regarding other beliefs. I sometimes do employer/employee Mediations and I would have to side with the employer on this one. You are the one that discriminates against others, that is very apparent.

Lady Rowen,

That is a shame about your workplace. I just got laid off, for lack of work. But my former place of work, Accenture, is a model of diversity and toleration. Where I worked may have been 60% Christian at most, the rest being mostly Hindu, with a scattering of other faiths and non-believers. It worked great. Further, homosexuality was openly accepted, and we had a support group there, encouraged by the company, of gays and lesbians. Best company I ever worked for.

Arminius

Arminus,

Thank you for the compliment.

I actually have no choice in the matter where work is concerned. Even with all of the laws in place today that say it is illegal to discriminate it still happens. All they have to do is come up with an excuse for terminating you and your gone. Then you have to prove it was really because of your religion. So for now I do what I must to protect myself in the work place.

What makes it extra touchy is that many of the employees spend their break time reading the bible. I get extremely nervous when they start conversations about it. Try to find a way to stay out of something like that without calling attention to yourself. It’s not easy, and doing it repeatedly is even harder. Also keep in mind that this company has fewer than 100 employees, people notice when you stand out in a group that size.

Lady Rowen

Well now I feel silly. I read that post over several times checking for typos and still managed to miss several important ones. Any one wishing for clarification please let me know and I will gladly post it. For now here are corrections on the ones I found:

I think it is important that we dispel the myths and so away with the untruths.
That should be do not so.

If we it them so
That should be: If we make is so

My apologies to everyone.

Lady Rowen

Lady Rowen,

Great post. Don't go back to the broom closet! There is wisdom in what you say, even for those of us who are not Pagan.

Arminius

There are those out there that will twist even the most polite, and well-meant comments into rude hateful insults. As someone close to me is so fond of saying “if you look for negativity you will find it”. I’m sure that this post will get torn to shreds as a load of personal slams against someone. The reality is that I am attempting to point out that regardless each person sees what they expect to, be it positive or negative, and thus responds accordingly. The bad part of that is that once a person sees negativity they then respond in kind and we’re off and running.

By now we should know that it makes no difference what we say or how we say it there are those who enjoy nothing more than baiting just to see what sort of rise they get. While I have no problem having conversations and exchanging views with others, even off the topics presented, I dislike the rude exchanges that seem to prevail at times. Defending ourselves is one thing, falling into the rudeness trap is another. There comes a time when you need to let these people talk to themselves, the walls, the wind, or each other, anything else is a waste of energy. As my husband says, “never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig”.

At the same time I am all for educating others about what Paganism is and is not. I think it is important that we dispel the myths and so away with the untruths. I also realize that this is going to take time. You can’t undo thousands of years worth of negative propaganda over night, or even over a few decades. Which is why we have the problems we do in getting institutions like prisons, hospitals, colleges and universities to accept that this is a true religion with moral teachings and positive messages and not a cult of negative intent and harmful traditions.

You can’t blame a herd of sheep when they follow their leader off a cliff, and the same is true for religions whose teachings are those of “we are the one true way and everything else is false”. They’ve been programmed for how many generations, and we know that programming of that sort is difficult to break. The fact that we can even discuss Paganism here at all shows how far we have come. I have commented before on the fact that this is a fight we shouldn’t have to engage in but since we do lets do so with dignity and decorum. The old argument of “I am right because (insert your deity of choice here) said so” has always irritated me to no end and doesn’t work for either side, in my opinion. At the same time this country was founded on equality for all and thus it is that by addressing the issue in a sane and sensible manner we can and will achieve our goal.

Paths of Communication

We scream against bigotry
And point fingers at the other side
While calling for understanding
And beating them over the head

Shall we fan the flames of hatred
Shall we mine the road exchange
Shall we toss grenades of bias
At the paths of communication

Their words can only harm us
If we give them the power
What they say is only true
If we it them so

Let them throw mud
We’re Pagans
We wear it well
Let us not stoop to their level

We can educate
Without name calling
We can enlighten
Without the insults

We are teachers,
We are healers,
We are wisewomen
We are Witches

Author Silvlaro
© Copyright 2008

Trust me when I say I want equality for us more than you know. I came out of the broom closet years ago; to be forced back in now is making me crazy. Yet if I come out as far as work is concerned chances are good I will loose my job. *Each letter of the companies name stands for a word, the M stands for a bible verse from Mark. * I don’t like living in fear.

Lady Rowen

TERRA GAZELLE:
“Anonymous...
For someone that does not have the courage to even post a handle you talk real brave...from a key board.
Sweety...Paganplace has more moxy then you can even dream of. Telling folks to shut up??? Why, is that the best come back you got??? What no "Yo Mama wears combat boots!"
I am with Arminius...you do not know the difference between self-righteousessness and standing up for her self and her people.
You pet are also not self righteous...I disagree on that with Arminius...you are a whiny boobie.”
terra
Thank you!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh, BTW, “I am with Arminius...you do not know the difference between self-righteousessness and standing up for her self and her people” “herself” is spelled as one word not two separate words, sweetie.

As far as being a whiny boobie, whatever that is, (must be pagan slang) regardless I am okwith myself and ok with any of you not liking me, end of story.

Have a nice life.

Anonymous...
For someone that does not have the courage to even post a handle you talk real brave...from a key board.

Sweety...Paganplace has more moxy then you can even dream of. Telling folks to shut up??? Why, is that the best come back you got??? What no "Yo Mama wears combat boots!"

I am with Arminius...you do not know the difference between self-righteousessness and standing up for her self and her people.

You pet are also not self righteous...I disagree on that with Arminius...you are a whiny boobie.

terra

Arminius, "Anonymous/JND/Believer,

Paganplace is not self-righteous, you are. She is definitely blunt, and does not pull punches. I know that from experience, yet she has my respect. You do not."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, whatever.

Anonymous/JND/Believer,

Paganplace is not self-righteous, you are. She is definitely blunt, and does not pull punches. I know that from experience, yet she has my respect. You do not.

Arminius

Paganplace, the self-righteous, shut up.

Good-bye

I was referring to your previous insistence on calling yourself 'Anonymous' along with countless others: and while it's not unheard of for people to post under others' names, it's been a long time since I suspected that happened to me.

I use the Paganplace name and no other, here, and if I ever change it to anything more creative, I'll let people know. :) That's meant to identify me as a particular poster, and I'm under no obligations to be more identifying than that, particularly not in a place where some *ahem* seem to feel quite justified in saying whatever they darn well feel like saying about a Pagan, whether it's true or not.

And, clearly what you 'consider' to be going on is not how others have seen it. It seems to me you get pretty creative about what others have said in order to insist everyone's a liar and out to get you or something... Anything but the actual facts of the matter.

If you insist on saying things about others that are not true, you *will* get called on it, and continuing to say them doesn't mean you deserve to skate based on some idea of 'forgiveness.'

Repeating the insults doesn't make them any more true. Just means you're wasting more of our time.

Unfortunately, some Christians seem to need to treat it as an article of faith that Pagans must be bad people: that other fellow seems to believe Paganism must not be a valid faith group simply for *not* being Christian, ...and, frankly, too many bigots out there think that entitles them to say whatever they want to about us, or do to us whatever they feel like.

Frankly, I find your thought process confused at best, Believer, and the only consistency in it is you *want* to take everything as somehow aggression against you, or a reason to proclaim we're somehow inferior to Christians.

That's the kind of thinking that often leads to some of the casual abuses we experience out there in the world. We're generally a pretty gregarious lot, but we do not brook insults and lies about ourselves such as you seem to feel entitled by your religion to subject us to.

pp, sorry but I am still bothered by what you did.

The post was on 2/24 nder one od starhawk's sites where I saw pp referenced as a male.

pp, "I don't know what you expect to demand 'forgiveness' for when you refuse to admit or even desist, from your errors and wrongdoings"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But I do not consider that "calling me on anything," I consider that being hateful and plain rude. You and the rest of your Pagan friends need a "mannerism" class.
Excuse me, but I am not remembering incorrectly, period. It is not my fault someone else was posting under your name.

I apologized for another comment that someone voiced that it was taken offensively and "you” spoke for the group and was rude and refused to accept the apology for "the group" stating that I hurt people and needed that an apology would not suffice. I’m glad that you think that you are perfect and I hope one day when you want someone to forgive you that they respond to you the same way you did me and then you will know how it feels.

I have no respect for you as an individual. Frankly, I don’t give a damn what you think about me, and at this point your opinion means nothing to me.

As far as refusing to identify myself, I think that I have as Believer, PP doesn't rate any higher on the scale of authenticity for ID purposes then Believer does.

Believer,

You're reading things into posts that aren't there.

You aren't taken to task for believing that the Bible is truth. It's when you use YOUR scriptures to try to define what WE believe that issues arise. Your scriptures have nothing to do with us. You keep trying to tell us what your book says about us. We keep tellng you that we aren't in your book.
You make it sound as though Paganism was established as some sort of protest religion aimed at Christianity. Earth-based religions were around long before Christianity. We didn't make it up just to piss off Jesus. In fact, neither love for nor dislike of Jesus has anything to do with Paganism.

I didn't leave Christianity for Paganism. I left Christianity because I found that there was too much of it that simply did not make sense to me.

I spent almost two decades studying different belief systems and finding none that completely met my spiritual needs. During that time, I considered myself an agnostic. I eventually learned that there was, in fact, a name for people like me who believed in a living Earth and an interconnected Web of Life - Pagans.

There have been several threads in this forum where I have mentioned either or both of my ex-husbands - you'll have to be more specific as to the actual event.

And I have never seen any post where PaganPlace referred to herself as a man - can you direct me to the post?

*shaking head with a sigh*

Believer, apparently, you still keep insisting I'm a man, when I'm not. Whatever you think you remember, that's not something I would have said. ...Probably it comes from you believing I was 'really' the same person as another poster, who may have been male.

Your error, again.

Again, you seem to prefer to believe what you choose to about others, even when directly corrected on it.

No, this isn't a 'group' that's 'all about' criticizing *you,* ...especially if you're the one that kept refusing to identify him/herself.

I don't know what you expect to demand 'forgiveness' for when you refuse to admit or even desist, from your errors and wrongdoings.

Arminius, no problem.

Hi, Lep,

As I said above, Believer has a tribal mentality: anyone not in the tribe (i.e., holding to their view of things) is a potential enemy.

Pagans do not hold to that view, and neither do I.

There can be no agreement between me and the likes of Believer. He/she is locked completely within their set of rules, probably having been raised in it. I came in from the outside to Christianity, as a skeptic. I am still trying to figure it out.

No, Believer, please do not give me any advice or warnings. This is MY journey, and is between me and God.

Arminius

Lepidopteryx, "Get it straight - we have no objection to you practicing the religion of your choice. We DO object to your attempts to define our beliefs in terms of your own. We DO object to being lied about. When you post misinformation regarding our beliefs, we WILL call you on it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My, my, what mistruths you do tell. I remember distinctly post regarding your relationship with your abusive husband on another forum. I posted many on that forum including one today. I also recall a back and forth discussion, you included, on 2/24/08 about the "sage" to get rid of "ill spirits that directly referenced me.

And then you need to understand that I did not write the bible if you do not like what I quote from the bible talk to God about it. I can accept anyone but I do reserve the right to distance myself from anyone that I believe is a determent to my personal being.

Paganplace is one of those that I choose to distance myself from. I have never seen such bold disregard and put-down of someone that makes an apology then I have seen made by him. He is a very unforgiving person that I have a dislike for and rightfully so.

I remember the post from 2/24 and pp referenced being a man, end of story.

Lepidopteryx, March 8, 2008 5:42 PM "If you mean "cult" in the sense of a non-mainstream faith, then I guess you could say that. Of course, by that definition, 1st century Christianity was also a cult.

If you mean what I think you mean by "cult," then you're grossly mistaken.
We don't have a central leader - no one handing down The Rules.

No one is told that they must believe a certain way, and that this is the only Truth. No one is promised preferential treatment in the afterlife.

No one is told who they can or can't associate with, no one is forbidden to speak to non-Pagans. No one is isolated from their families.

No one is asked to surrender financial assets. I have never been asked for money by any of the Pagan groups with which I associate. (The Baptist church I grew up in, however, expected members to contribute 10% of their gross income to its treasury).

No one is prevented from leaving if they decide that Paganism isn't the right path for them.

Our potlucks don't include poisoned Kool-Aid as a beverage"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Regardless, no church is 100% perfect and even if they ask for financial assets in the way of tithes it is your choice not to give and if you do not like the church then leave it and find somewhere else to go that is in accordance to scripture. But that is not a reason to turn on God, it is however a reason to turn on the man/woman running that church.

I believe that the basic difference here is that I hold the bible to be truth and Pagans do not. So if I quote scripture I am demeaned for it and if I voice my opinion, which usually is based on scripture combined with personal beliefs it is disregarded.

I can assure you that no one dictates any belief system or way to live as a Christian. I am too independent to allow that. I am self-confident, self-assured, and do not direction in my life regarding my belief.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Believer for Life, "I didn't make the comment about Christians bombing anything"

As far as this post I thought that you were the author and listed your name, the post is no longer there for me to check my work and
clarify it. So I apologize for the mistake.

Believer:

Arminius is a friend - he isn't a Pagan, nor do I (or any other Pagan here, as far as I can tell), hold the fact that he is Christian against him.

As for your statement that "Criticizing me is what this group is all about" -

I, for one, had never heard of you before, and I've been commenting on this forum for quite a while now. The opportunity to criticize you is certainly not why I joined the group.

Get it straight - we have no objection to you practicing the religion of your choice. We DO object to your attempts to define our beliefs in terms of your own. We DO object to being lied about. When you post misinformation regarding our beliefs, we WILL call you on it.

Arminius, Believer for life:

""I am not saying that Pagans are bad people, even though I have not found one of you on this thread that lives by the morals that you preach related to the way you treat others. In fact, I have seen the opposite regarding your morals referencing how you treat your fellowman. Now of you are kind, sensitive, sincere, caring, or loving towards anyone but your own kind and that is pathetic and egocentric.""

"My reply: That is a very odd statement, because I have found the Pagans here to be just the opposite. They have totally accepted me as a web friend, while of course agreeing to disagree. I think your view of religion has blinded you somewhat to what is really happening around you, especially to the good that can and will be found in your fellow man. I try to accept people as they are; apparently you try to fit them into your narrow definition, and reject them if they do not fit."

Arminius

~~~~~~~~~~~~

And you are a part of this group, so do I need to say more? Criticizing me is what this group is all about and the point that I made in my post, you have proved my point.

I treat people with respect regardless of their background however; I choose not the keep close fellowship with certain people. That is a personal preference.

I can refer you to post that rant after rant by several of the screen names posted here were personally directed at me and totally inappropriate, demeaning, and belittling me, all because "I" did not agree with their political and Pagan beliefs.

A complete turn-off to say the least!

PaganPlace,

NOTHING can justify the religious oppression happening to Pagans in prison and elsewhere. And nothing can justify the denouncing of any decent religion by anybody.

The problem with 'Believer' is that he/she is tribal: anyone not with us is against us. (...now where have I heard that before?)

Arminius

Well, Arminius, if he wants to say, "Pagans are bad people, whatever they say or do, because my Bible calls non-Christians bad people..."

There's really nothing we can say to that but, 'Who's in the cult, now?" :)

You don't have to be a Pagan, Believer: we aren't out to convert anyone, and if we were, certainly wouldn't look among those who would rather defame us based on a book than on our merits.

I'm sorry if you aren't getting the warm fuzzies from us, personally, Believer, but, frankly your sole experiences of us would be trying to defame us to our faces on the Internet.

We are not characters out of your Bible, we are not a 'cult' because your Bible says so in your mind, ... you're speaking bigotry in the oldest sense, claiming you can justify any abuse of others 'bi Gott:' ('By God.')

There's nothing in our belief system which says we have to put up with that.

And I'll ask for the Christians who have come here to criticize: does any of this really justify the religious oppression described as happening to Pagans and seekers in prison above?

Believer for Life,
I didn't make the comment about Chrsitians bombing anyhting.

I am not a member of PETA. While I share their concern for the non-human denizens of our lovely green planet, I do not apporive of their methods, and I do not have aproblem with domestication of animals, as long as those animals are treateed kindly. Turning domesticated animals loose is not a kindness, as they are no longer capable of surviving on their own. And I absolutely support spaying and neutering of pets.
While I do believe that animals deserve our respect, I also eat meat. However, I am particular about how the animals who are killed for my eat are treated while alive. I won't eat beef or pork from feedlos, or poultry or eggs from caged birds, or dairy products produced by dosing cows with rBGH, which pretty much eliminates all the meat, and nost of the dairy products at the supermaket. We have a farmers' market here where I can question the meat producers face-to-face regarding their methods of production. Are they more expensive? Yes, because sustaionable production methods generally mean fewer head and more labor. Is it worht the extra cost> Yes. Can I always afford it? No. When I can't, we get our protein from other sources, rather than buy cheap meat that comes from mistreated animals.

I do not pray to a rock formation. In fact, I do not engage in petitionary prayer at all. Even when I was a Christian, I realized that my needs were met much faster and more efficiently when I got off my knees and onto my feet.
I do, however, revere and resepct the living planet that supports my life and the life of everyting else that walks, hops, crawls, slithers, flies, buzzes, sporulates, or blooms.

No one is trying to convert you to Paganism. And no Pagan thinks you're eternally damned if you don't become one of us.
I have freinds of every faith - Pagan, UU, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, to name a few. I also have friends who practice no religion. I have had some very interesting theosophical conversations with all of them over innumerable cups of fair trade coffee and tea, bottles of blackberry merlot and Guinness, and never any rancor. The woman who has been my best friend since we were twelve years old is Orthodox Christian - not once has she ever attempted to convert me, nor I her, nor has either of us ever pronounced the other condemned to eternal damnation.
I have no issue with people choosing to be Christian. I have an issue with people like the ones who came to my door yesterday morning to tell me that I'm worshipping wrong.

We aren't the ones ostracizing people. We are the ones who are having to battle government entities from city councils to the Pentagon and everywhere in between just to get the rights guaranteed to us by the First Amendment.

You seem to take offense at the fact that we correct people who spread misinformation about our religion, or who wish to define our religion in their terms, and defend ourselves against those who make statements about us that are outright slander. Self-defense is not disrespect.

Believer for life:

"I am not saying that Pagans are bad people, even though I have not found one of you on this thread that lives by the morals that you preach related to the way you treat others. In fact, I have seen the opposite regarding your morals referencing how you treat your fellowman. Now of you are kind, sensitive, sincere, caring, or loving towards anyone but your own kind and that is pathetic and egocentric."

My reply: That is a very odd statement, because I have found the Pagans here to be just the opposite. They have totally accepted me as a web friend, while of course agreeing to disagree. I think your view of religion has blinded you somewhat to what is really happening around you, especially to the good that can and will be found in your fellow man. I try to accept people as they are; apparently you try to fit them into your narrow definition, and reject them if they do not fit.

Arminius

lepidopteryx, "There are no fundamentalist Christian members of Peta, who would bomb medical laboratories (although there are members of Peta who claim to be Christian)."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Your whole post is way off the mark of what I meant. According to scripture Paganism is a cult because they do no believe in Christ as the savior and they worship other Gods, period.

Plain and simple nothing to do about Christianity but has everything to do about the "core" fundamental beliefs of what God, Jehovah God, has determined for mankind.

As far as the bombings of clinics, yes there are extremes in almost every religion. But come on, intelligent people praying to rock formation such as the Earth and expecting it to render power to bring about their answer to prayer is ludicrous to say the least.

I thank God that my God is a living God and hears and answers my prayers, speaks to my heart in the midnight hour, comforts me while I go through life's storms, and gives me a garment of praise for a spirit of heaviness. Now who can find fault with a God like that.

So again, I will never be a Pagan because it is a cult type belief, my own personal decision. No minister put me up to it. I make my own decisions regarding my faith. I believe the bible is the true word of God and I will also believe that.

I am not saying that Pagans are bad people, even though I have not found one of you on this thread that lives by the morals that you preach related to the way you treat others. In fact, I have seen the opposite regarding your morals referencing how you treat your fellowman. Now of you are kind, sensitive, sincere, caring, or loving towards anyone but your own kind and that is pathetic and egocentric.

You have done well with assisting me with my decision regarding my views and decision to run as far and as fast as I can away from any Pagan. Pagans are very “sinful” people and the worst part about it is you like and justify your sinfulness.

I cannot and will not associate with people who have no desire to improve themselves, ostracize by treating people hateful because they don’t believe like you, and living in “HABITUAL SIN.” And yes I believe that practicing BGLT are living in “HABITUAL SIN, ” as according to Romans 4.

I think, JND, you may accuse us of not having 'self-criticism' because so many of *your* criticisms are just off-base. There's nothing 'balanced' about making stuff up about people or assuming your own criticisms of people you've never met have anything to do with the reality.

You keep trying to characterize others based on your own presumptions and insistences about them.

Now, apparently, trying to connect us with the dreaded 'animal rights terrorists' or something.

No, we don't think it's balanced to consider all the animals of the Earth our property. Certainly doesn't mean we think of any or all of them as 'familiars.' :)

JND:

I'm glad that you understand that Paganism is not a cult, but I get the feeling that you see our lack of centralization as a liability - I see it as an asset.

As for Pagans not having enough self-criticism, you've got me curious. How much is enough? How badly must a person beat herself up to please your version of God?

If you mean self-examination, you won't find too many people who practice it more assiduously than Pagans. Since we believe that everything we do affects everyone and everything else in existence, one must be mindful of the possible consequences of one's actions on the rest of existence. Does that means we consider ourselves omnipotent and/or omniscient? No - the fact that we aren't is why we must be careful.

You toss out the word "familiar" - do you have any idea what it actually means? I'm dying to see your definition.

I have seen the animals with whom I share my home change behvior depending on the situation. One of our cats only sleeps in a bed with a human if the human sleeping there is sick. If I wake up in the morning, and she is in the bed with us, and I feel fine, you can bet the rent that my husband will wake up ill. She knows.
I consider the lives of the animals that share my home as valuable as my own - I am responsible for their well-being. I don't worship them, but I do accord them respect. Would I risk my life to save one of theirs? You bet your sweet bippy. Would you do the same for your pets?
And while I don't go about bombing medical labs, I also don't use commercial pharmaceuticals because I don't approve of animal testing, nor do I use cosmetics that are tested on animals.

Arminius, will get back to you on Genesis.

Believer, I'd have to admit Paganism definitely is not a cult. They go to far in the opposite direction. Paganism doesn't have a centralized leader that does mind control nonsense on people.

As Todd Friel always says on Way of the Master, "There is a ditch on both sides."
As a Christian, one can be too legalistic or too permissive. In general one can either follow one's own impressions without enough self criticism (Paganism) or follow a false teacher such as Jim Jones without enough thought about what he's saying (Cult). The trick is to find the balance.

I love my cat and I'm tempted to think it "knows" stuff. But I realize this is just a human tendency to read things into things (like seeing shapes in a cloud). The Bible contains an accurate, balanced view of animals. Paganism regards them as "familiars" and the ancient Egyptians even worshiped them. This is yet another example of the imbalance of paganism vs the Bible. There are no fundamentalist Christian members of Peta, who would bomb medical laboratories (although there are members of Peta who claim to be Christian).

Believer:
**I will never become a Pagan as now I have enough information from reading your post to know that you are a cult type belief.**

If you mean "cult" in the sense of a non-mainstream faith, then I guess you could say that. Of course, by that definition, 1st century Christianity was also a cult.

If you mean what I think you mean by "cult," then you're grossly mistaken.
We don't have a central leader - no one handing down The Rules.

No one is told that they must believe a certain way, and that this is the only Truth. No one is promised preferential treatment in the afterlife.

No one is told who they can or can't associate with, no one is forbidden to speak to non-Pagans. No one is isolated from their families.

No one is asked to surrender financial assets. I have never been asked for money by any of the Pagan groups with which I associate. (The Baptist church I grew up in, however, expected members to contribute 10% of their gross income to its treasury).

No one is prevented from leaving if they decide that Paganism isn't the right path for them.

Our potlucks don't include poisoned Kool-Aid as a beverage.

*waving* MM, again. (Got ye sidelined yesterday by one of those nasty colds going around lately)

It seems there's a problem of *access* in general, if there are gatekeepers trying to close out all Pagan influence from there. ...so making sure prisoners have their rights is part ofit...

One thing about all these new prisons is, they are often privatized, and through some of the Bush moves you don't hear much about, particularly, some of them are overtly-Christian-religious-and such.

The other part, I think, is actually turning up in one way or another.

Believer,

'Believer' in what? There have been numerous Christian cults.

So please define 'cult' and give three examples.

Arminius

I will never become a Pagan as now I have enough information from reading your post to know that you are a cult type belief.

Lord Synn Crow, our HP has been teaching prisoners ...and has seen several through their incarcerations to their paroles, he has stayed in touch with them when they are on the outside.

He writes long letters, giveing lessons and just being there for them. Teaching ethics and rules based on knowledge and responcibility are things that many of these folks have never had. But mopst of all, it is being their for them. They also have not had alot of that.

Its as hard to be a hospital chaplain in most places as being a prison chaplain. We need to fight for equality period. Until then our community will always get short shift. There are enough of us, if we would all stand up.
terra

Priver,Lady R...
Very few prisons have gardens...many just have a cement slab to walk on surrounded with chain fencing with some weight benches and a basketball hoop.

I think learning visualization would be a neccessity..of course it is for all of us, but in the enviroment of a prison it would be more so.

Maybe just having one thing that they can keep on them like a pent, that would mean faith and love and connection to those who have nothing. I remember the hard times my pent helped me through.

Having incense to give a space the feeling of sacredness and calmness. They can be little doop sticks...no real stick to worry the security people...they are just pressed herbs and oils and short. I like them very much, and they are very inexspensive. A small bowl with a bit of sand or dirt can be a censor...a bit of after shave blessed can be annointing oil,then there is water, salt...I think no problem with those.

Lady Rowan is right...books can be had and used.I had a relative that was behind bars...and I sent him copies from info on the net. We can do that.

I was just thinking maybe it might be a good thing for the Pagan community that we gather together to support Pagan prisoners. What it would take is a list of names, and the rules of the prison. It's easy to be sympethetic to those who are like us...harder to see the gods in those who have made mistakes and are being punished.

Prisons have different rules...some will not accept anything from the outside unless sent by a store or shop, new. Some will accept things sent by family and friends. There are Pagan chaplains that try to accomplish the improbable...we can help.

In the military...there are more Pagan soldiers then Muslim ones, yet they have 44 paid Chaplins, we have one; Patrick McCollum in California..and he is the Chaplin for 33 prisons for the Pagan inmates.

We had to fight 10 years to get our religious symbol on head stones. While religions with less then 100 people took less then a month to be approved. I guess the VA didn't want the Christian soldier to lie beside the Pagan soldier,who might have saved the life of a Christian soldier. Discrimination is stupid.

terra

Lady Rowen:

**While I understand that certain items will never be approved I’m sure that things like books, which would be educational tools, as well as some alter equipment would be a good place to start. Of course allowing teachers to conduct classes would be wonderful, I can see where teaching inmates to focus energy without the use of certain tools would be important, but I can’t see that coming right away. Thus the question what should be the first steps taken to correct the problem?**

Part of the problem as I understand it is that Pagan teachers aren't being allowed contact with Pagan prisoners. Pagan prisoners are being chaplained by Christian chaplains IF they're chaplained at all. And the Christian chaplains often have no idea how to go about teaching Pagans how to adjust/modify rituals to their situation - most of them know little to nothing about Pagan rituals other than the bastardized versions used for Christian holidays. There's no one there who CAN teach them alternative ways to focus energy or raise power.
So I guess the first step is to get Pagan teachers/chaplains access to prisoners. I was under the impression that prisoners had a legal right to access to a chaplain of their faith. If so, then there has to be a path of redress for those who are denied such access. Which is one of the issues that the good Reverend McCollum is working on.

Merry Meet, Lady Rowen!

The only reason I sometimes engage with those other folks is because there are people out there who read these blogs without posting to it.. I used to be one of them- and there's enough disinformation and lies about us out there already without someone coming along and projecting NEW misinformation onto us.

Although having been called everything from a 'devil worshipper' to 'immoral' to 'hedonist' (all of which mostly just makes me laugh) tends to give one a perspective on why so many are finding their own religions dissatisfying.

As to the question at hand-I'm not sure. I guess it would depend on a person's level of practice at the time they are looking at getting more involved. I think I for one would want to understand a person's motivations more before going forward. Just to be sure they're in it for the right reasons. Beyond that, I don't really know, other than books. Lots of them.

Keeping a journal might be in order. If I were the one doing the advising, I'd tell prisoners what I've counseled other people to do who find themselves in situations with disapproving family members. Definitely start the legal redress if needs be, but in the meantime, go underground. Start with learning about animals, flora and fauna in their area. Don't a lot of prisons have gardens? Maybe if they're allowed to be a caretaker of a prison garden. And read everything they can get their hands on. Psychology, history, mythologies, language, science. Learning about their creative interests.

Educating others and Talking about their beliefs might work, but that would depend on the atmosphere they find themselves in. There's a lot of variables in a situation like this.

Beyond that, I don't know. I'm curious to know what some of the others here would think. I think at least one of the other folks have worked with this population before and I'm interested in what they'd have to say.

Blessed be. :)

Paganplace, Lepicopteryx, Arminius, Priver, and Terra, Merry Meet

I posted a couple times before going to work. I dragged myself home so tired I didn’t bother to read here. I didn’t get back to read because, as we all know fairly well, life gets in the way of those things we really want to be doing. Little did I know what waited me when I did check in, not that I am surprised at the nasty, mean, hate filled comments. I never could understand how anyone could think that using fear as a tool was supposed to make others flock to them. Somehow I can’t see the “if you don’t do as I tell you daddy will smack you” thing as an incentive to convert, run the other way yes but convert no.

After some intense thought, some of which was in no way positive or constructive, I have decided that an exchange of “I’m right and you’re not so neener neener” is counter productive to any sort of understanding or intelligent exchange. From here on I will be ignoring those posts and or comments that seem to fall into that category… well I do feel the need to make one comment here:

PP “Gods, you guys take yourselves so *seriously.* Ashes to ashes, ...no one said you had to walk around with a can of kerosene and a Zippo.”

And all this time I thought they used bics, go figure.

Anyway I was wondering if it would be possible to get back on topic? I know that will be difficult for some here *eyes Terra* but I would like to discuss this issue seriously. For instance what steps are being proposed as a start in adjusting the imbalance that exists at the moment? While I understand that certain items will never be approved I’m sure that things like books, which would be educational tools, as well as some alter equipment would be a good place to start. Of course allowing teachers to conduct classes would be wonderful, I can see where teaching inmates to focus energy without the use of certain tools would be important, but I can’t see that coming right away. Thus the question what should be the first steps taken to correct the problem?

Lady Rowen

Starhawk wrote this article about a basic foundation on which this country was based on. Religious Freedom and equality.

There are those who come to this forum and we have become friends, learning about each other and gaining tolerance and knowledge. This is a good thing...

We have had many topics to discuss, agree and dissagree. Most often we come to understanding and tolerance. But there are always those who decide they are the voice and judgement of god...they are neither. They are humans trying to get by like the rest of us...

In Wicca we each have the right to walk the path the gods have set for us. We know that we learn sometimes by failure...falling on your butt is a great learning experience. No one learns a thing while things are going great.We all make mistakes, its how we were created, imperfect but trainable.

Some folks come on Starhawk's page and decide it's ok to chide the Pagans for being not like them...what ever that is. We never have Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists...etc, or any one but Christians harrassing us. They claim it is their right...and so it is. But it is also our right to tell them to take a aeronautical intercourse at a motormated piece of pastry.

Your right ends with our rights...and we have them. Same as you. So unless you want me to start shoving a rather large and diverse group of gods on you...be a little more respectful.

Blessed be,

terra

No more:

Against whom did I bear false witness?

My gods don't require me to apologize for wrongs I didn't commit.

No More...
I think for you and your ilk I would turn to others besides the elements...though a good hot foot might help you.

Maybe you need to meet Pan or Hacate...lol.

terra

"Apolgize when I have done nothing wrong? You must be nucking futs."

Just as I thought, maybe you should read the passage on bearing false witness against others.

Oh, I don't think that pagans go by that moral. Or maybe you should ask the God Earth, wind, fire, or plants and see what they have to say about it.

No More:

**So tell me why again you are slamming me for repeating paganplace's comment? A bit temperamental aren’t we?? An apology is in order, but my guess is it will never happen.**

Apolgize when I have done nothing wrong? You must be nucking futs.

PaganPlace's placement of quotation marks around the phrase "decadent queer" tells the reader that she is referring to a phrase used by someone else to describe her, not a phrase she uses to describe herself. So you were not, in fact, repeating what she said about herself, but what she was objecting to other people saying about her.

As for unbunching my own undies, having one's panties in a wad over the fact that others refuse to worship your god is not the same as anger over people's civil rights being violated.

JND,

The arguments presented in your link are, for the most part, pretty good. What they do, for the most part, is reject the right wing Christian view that the Bible is superior to the law of the land. I don't recall seeing any comment about the two creation stories, however.

My church's actions regarding property is perfectly legal. I do grieve that this has come to pass.

I don't want to come within a mile of any conservative church, regardless of denomination.

Arminius

Steve Gregg has compiled a comprehensive list to objections of this sort: http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=27

BTW, what do you think of your presiding bishop's behavior in suing conservative parishes to grab their land? Her words may be reconciling and soothing. Conservatives may come across as harsh (as discipline might sound harsh to the wayward child). But what of Schori's *actions*? Is that Christian?

Take my advice, leave TEC (which is currently the fastest shrinking denomination in the US) and join a robust, conservative Anglican associated parish, such as CANA, AMiA, or the diocese of Pittsburgh, San Joaquin (which left the Episcopal Church en masse!) or Fort Worth, Texas.

Terra,

Hello, friend!

I don't expect a real answer. Good weekend to you too, and God bless!

Arminius

Arminius,

Don't hold your breath...

Hope you have a great week end.

That goes for all!
Blessed be!

terra

JND,

First, you do not debate, you shove biblical quotes in my face. Second, I am not running, I am right here, in case you didn't notice. Third, you accused me point-blank of being a liar, and that is ad hominem. Fourth, I am willing to discuss, but not willing to be bombarded by pointless OT quotations.

Since you are apparently such an expert on these things, perhaps you can answer some questions that have been bothering me:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev.15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

The book of Genesis is particularly puzzling. It starts off with God creating the world in six days, ending with man, created after the world with its plants and animals. But then it seems to start over, with a different writing style. Even more confusing, God creates man before the plants and animals. I hope you can clear this up for me.

...waiting for an answer.

Arminius

No More: thank you for the kind words.

Arminius: I make straightforward biblical arguments and you run for the hills and accuse me of pontificating and ad hominem. Remind me again who's unwilling to discuss anything?

No More:

Whatever. Yawn......

Arminius, thank you!

No More:

The phrase 'discussion with JND' is an oxymoron. He does not discuss, he pontificates and makes ad hominem attacks. Just as you do.

Arminius

"Arminius:

JND,

After much thought, I have found one major difference between us. I always look for the good in other people, and I usually find it. You always assume they are sinful, and therefore they are all prejudged by you, unless they knee-jerk to your totalitarian view of religion.

I see no profit in discussing anything with you again.

Arminius"

~~~~~~~~~~~

how pathetic you are Arminius that you, one claiming to have "good morals" and "always treat people right" cannot find any purpose to have a discussion with JND. Actually, I like his point of view.

JND wrote, "Lepidopteryx: re the couple "married" by the UU... as you go to see Eve Ensler (who btw promotes lesbian pedophilia in her magnum opus), please consider the absurd sense of entitlement Americans have. Never forget that what people feel they are entitled to must come from somewhere. If they don't own it themselves, they ought to receive it with grace and not complain if they don't get it.
Do you think all murderers are entitled to a pardon? Do you think spoiled brat poor children are entitled to the same gifts that spoiled brat rich children get?
Of course ultimately we are all ungrateful brats. We brought nothing into this world. There is nothing that we can call our own. As Gordon Clark once observed: "There are some things it is logically impossible for God to do. For instance, he cannot steal." Ultimately you and your couple are the clay, God is the potter. You have absolutely no right to complain against God "'Why doth he yet find fault, for who hath resisted his will?' Shall the thing formed say to him who formed it 'Why hast thou made me thus?'"
--------------------------

JND, EXCELLENT POINT AND POST! KUDOS TO YOU FROM ME! AND SOME KISSES AND HUGS TOO, XOXOXOXO, DON'T MISS CATCHING THEM, I BLEW THEM AT YOU.

lepidopteryx, as you told anonymous on March 6, 2008 4:00 PM, I am suggesting that you take your own advice,

"Unbunch your undies, dear - that can't be comfortable."

"Paganplace wrote on March 7, 2008 12:36 AM, "If you think your cerebellum's all that important, consider that as homo sapiens, we're pretty much evolved to be very good at throwing rocks at other rocks, and if you fear the 'end of the world,' deflect some asteroids instead of freaking out about about people not oppressing me and my sweetie for being 'decadent queers,' cause I'm *sure* Jeebus would be *so* happy to know about it if it was *straight* sex I was having on those occasions when I'm not feeling the effects of 'compassionate conservatism' too much in my arthritic joints to do too much more than sit here and talk to Jack Chick true-believers who have nothing better to do than defame my people...."
*****************

lepidopteryx:

No More:

So all BGLT people are decadent, undisciplined, and self-indulgent?

Yes, some of them are sexually promiscuous and irresponsible. Guess what - there are also straight people are promiscuous and sexually irresponsible. Promiscuity and sexual irresponsibilty are not functions of orientation, they're functions of other things - poor self esteem being one of the biggies. Of course, constantly being referred to as an abomination doesn't exactly boost a person's self esteem, now does it?

Did it ever occur to any of the folks dong the name-calling that perhaps much of the stereotypical "acting out" would stop if BGLT people weren't made to feel as though they constantly had to be on the defensive? Thst perhaps if their relationships were given equal respect, honor, rights, and legality to that of straight people, then there would be no need for things like Pride parades?

Two friends of mine were married almost two decades ago, by a Unitarian minister, in a Unitarian church. At the time they married, they had been together several years. But because they are both women, they were not able to get joint health insurance through one's employer. The other was self-employed, and so had to provide her own health coverage completely out of pocket. After being diagnosed with and treated for a very aggressive form of cancer, her rates went way up. She could no longer afford coverage from the carrier she had been using, and because of the cancer, had difficulty getting coverage from another. The last thing a cancer survivor needs is to be without health insurance. They restructured the budget and paid the exorbitant premiums.
While she was in the hospital, her brother, who constantly harangued her about her relationship with phrases like "you better get right with God" could have barred her wife from seeing her if he had chosen to do so. His consent, not her wife's, would have been sought for treament if she was unable to speak for herself.
If one of them dies, the other cannot inherit any federal benefits.

All those little legal niceties that my husband and I automatically get with the purchase of a marriage license, they have to pay a lawyer to draw up a separate legal document for. And some of them, they simply can't get at all.
These women have declared their commitment to each other before God and man, and have been there for each other through sickness and health, bettor and worse, richer and poorer. They are every bit as married as any hetero couple with a license, and more married than some hetero couples with a license. Why should their marriage not be legally recognized? Because they can't make a baby? When we met, my husband was surgically sterile, and I was in the early stages of menopause. We couldn't make a baby together if the fate of the free world rested on it. No one at the Clerk of Court's office asked us about our ability or desire to procreate. So making babies ain't the issue.

If you think being BGLT is a sin, that's your prerogative. No one will try to coerce you into a same-sex realtionship or make you go through gender reassignment. If you think same sex marriage is a sin, that's also your prerogative. If you get an invitation to a same sex wedding, RSVP in the negative. But to deny people fundamental civil rights because they don't fit your personal religious doctrine is unacceptable.

I know I've gone way off topic, but I see on a daily basis the way my BGLT friends and family members are treated, and it pisses me off. It pisses me off even more that these "defense of marriage" laws that are being passed are nothing but thinly disguised enactments of religious doctrine into secular law.

March 7, 2008 8:35 AM
********************

So tell me why again you are slamming me for repeating paganplace's comment? A bit temperamental aren’t we?? An apology is in order, but my guess is it will never happen.

But that is ok, I don't need you or anyone else's affirmation regarding my beliefs, position on what is sin, or the decisions that I make. And you won't hurt my feelings because I could care less about your opinion of what I think or do. I really mean that to. So I suggest that you not waste you time responding to my post.

Lepidopteryx:
>Here's the info you requested.

JND,

After much thought, I have found one major difference between us. I always look for the good in other people, and I usually find it. You always assume they are sinful, and therefore they are all prejudged by you, unless they knee-jerk to your totalitarian view of religion.

I see no profit in discussing anything with you again.

Arminius

JND:
**re the couple "married" by the UU... as you go to see Eve Ensler (who btw promotes lesbian pedophilia in her magnum opus),**

I have not had the opportunity to see "The Vagina Monologues" - the last time it was produced here, I was too broke to buy theater tickets, so I'd appreciate it if you would elaborate on the "lesbain pedophilia" you found there. If it is, in fact there, I don't have to agree with everything an author writes to think they have something useful to say. I love Shakespeare,but even he wrote some crap - look at "Titus Andronicus" or as an English professor of mine referred to it, "The Great Roman Chainsaw Massacre."
And what does pedophilia have to do with my friends' wedding and marriage? They were both adults when they got married, and neither of them would ever even think of harming a child. One of them, in fact is an ordained UU minister, and even though she lives in another state, I consider her my pastor.

**please consider the absurd sense of entitlement Americans have. Never forget that what people feel they are entitled to must come from somewhere. If they don't own it themselves, they ought to receive it with grace and not complain if they don't get it.**

So should biracial couples have accepted the fact that they didn't own the right to marry with grace? Why should a person's right to marry be dependent on the contents of their underpants?

**Do you think all murderers are entitled to a pardon?**

Actually, I don't think any murderers are entitled to a pardon.

**Do you think spoiled brat poor children are entitled to the same gifts that spoiled brat rich children get?**

I don't think spoiled brats are entitled to gifts at all. In fact, no one is entiteld to gifts. Gifts are bonus. I do think that people are entitled to the basic needs of life - food clothing, shelter.

**Of course ultimately we are all ungrateful brats. We brought nothing into this world.**

My daughter didn't ask to be born - I made that decision for her. having made that decision, I am responsible for making sure her needs are met. She is entitled to that simply by virtue of having been born.

**There is nothing that we can call our own. As Gordon Clark once observed: "There are some things it is logically impossible for God to do. For instance, he cannot steal." Ultimately you and your couple are the clay, God is the potter. You have absolutely no right to complain against God "'Why doth he yet find fault, for who hath resisted his will?' Shall the thing formed say to him who formed it 'Why hast thou made me thus?'"**

Your version of God is a control freak. I don't complain to his at all, because I don't beleive in him, and complaining to someone that I don't believe can hear me would be pointless.
God didn't form me - my parents did. I know this because He didn't form my daughter - her dad and I did. I know - I was present at the conception and the delivery.

PP, all I'm doing is observing (not judging, not slandering) that Arminius and you are being inconsistent with scripture. If you overcome your hostility enough to go through a few verses with me, I'm sure you would agree with that point (although of course you might not agree that such scriptures are true):

you say: "Actually, I remember making a nice and clever album cover with a Jack Chick tract that said *No one is righteous, not no one'* ... Even inside your own belief, if Jesus sacrificed himself to himself to stop himself from eternally burning everyone who didn't happen to believe certain people with obvious ulterior motives....
Well, did it work or not?"

But the righteousness of Christ is imputed through faith:
John 3:18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

PP: "If so, ...why? What 'profit' do you think to gain by 'winning the world?'"

You're taking that verse out of context. I'm not trying to 'gain the world' in the sense of becoming Bill Gates. I'm following the Great Commission of Matthew 28: 19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"

PP: "I know you believe that your God is dangling your tootsies over a fire and any slight misstep brings doom."

You know this is a strawman argument. It's a caricature. I'd respond that you portray God as an arbitrary tyrant because you cannot clearly see your sin and are blinded to God's holiness and your own sinfulness: Isaiah 6:5 "Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."

----------------------------------
Lepidopteryx: re the couple "married" by the UU... as you go to see Eve Ensler (who btw promotes lesbian pedophilia in her magnum opus), please consider the absurd sense of entitlement Americans have. Never forget that what people feel they are entitled to must come from somewhere. If they don't own it themselves, they ought to receive it with grace and not complain if they don't get it.
Do you think all murderers are entitled to a pardon? Do you think spoiled brat poor children are entitled to the same gifts that spoiled brat rich children get?
Of course ultimately we are all ungrateful brats. We brought nothing into this world. There is nothing that we can call our own. As Gordon Clark once observed: "There are some things it is logically impossible for God to do. For instance, he cannot steal." Ultimately you and your couple are the clay, God is the potter. You have absolutely no right to complain against God "'Why doth he yet find fault, for who hath resisted his will?' Shall the thing formed say to him who formed it 'Why hast thou made me thus?'"

No More:

So all BGLT people are decadent, undisciplined, and self-indulgent?

Yes, some of them are sexually promiscuous and irresponsible. Guess what - there are also straight people are promiscuous and sexually irresponsible. Promiscuity and sexual irresponsibilty are not functions of orientation, they're functions of other things - poor self esteem being one of the biggies. Of course, constantly being referred to as an abomination doesn't exactly boost a person's self esteem, now does it?
Did it ever occur to any of the folks dong the name-calling that perhaps much of the stereotypical "acting out" would stop if BGLT people weren't made to feel as though they constantly had to be on the defensive? Thst perhaps if their relationships were given equal respect, honor, rights, and legality to that of straight people, then there would be no need for things like Pride parades?

Two friends of mine were married almost two decades ago, by a Unitarian minister, in a Unitarian church. At the time they married, they had been together several years. But because they are both women, they were not able to get joint health insurance through one's employer. The other was self-employed, and so had to provide her own health coverage completely out of pocket. After being diagnosed with and treated for a very aggressive form of cancer, her rates went way up. She could no longer afford coverage from the carrier she had been using, and because of the cancer, had difficulty getting coverage from another. The last thing a cancer survivor needs is to be without health insurance. They restructured the budget and paid the exorbitant premiums.
While she was in the hospital, her brother, who constantly harangued her about her relationship with phrases like "you better get right with God" could have barred her wife from seeing her if he had chosen to do so. His consent, not her wife's, would have been sought for treament if she was unable to speak for herself.
If one of them dies, the other cannot inherit any federal benefits.
All those little legal niceties that my husband and I automatically get with the purchase of a marriage license, they have to pay a lawyer to draw up a separate legal document for. And some of them, they simply can't get at all.
These women have declared their commitment to each other before God and man, and have been there for each other through sickness and health, bettor and worse, richer and poorer. They are every bit as married as any hetero couple with a license, and more married than some hetero couples with a license. Why should their marriage not be legally recognized? Because they can't make a baby? When we met, my husband was surgically sterile, and I was in the early stages of menopause. We couldn't make a baby together if the fate of the free world rested on it. No one at the Clerk of Court's office asked us about our ability or desire to procreate. So making babies ain't the issue.

If you think being BGLT is a sin, that's your prerogative. No one will try to coerce you into a same-sex realtionship or make you go through gender reassignment.
If you think same sex marriage is a sin, that's also your prerogative. If you get an invitation to a same sex wedding, RSVP in the negative.
But to deny people fundamental civil rights because they don't fit your personal religious doctrine is unacceptable.

I know I've gone way off topic, but I see on a daily basis the way my BGLT friends and family members are treated, and it pisses me off. It pisses me off even more that these "defense of marriage" laws that are being passed are nothing but thinly disguised enactments of religious doctrine into secular law.

Decadent queer is right and it is a tru saying, that it refers to a personal trait used to describe a person's lifestyle, of lack of moral and intellectual discipline, meaning a self-indulgence corrosive state of decline due to a perceived erosion of necessary moral traditions.

Hee, Arminius. :)

" Arminius:

PaganPlace,

You can say 'blessed be' to me any time, and I will be honored."

Prepare to receive great honor, then. Did we mention the Gods are alive in each of us? :)

Careful, we'll hold ya to it. ;)

Cause, well, yaknow, it's obviously mathematically-impossible we have any sense of morals whatsoever based on some notion of Christian apologeticsbased on physics that didn't even exist when said apologetics were written, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Yaknow. Cause, clearly, if it isn't explained to every Christian ever for two days on end ...apiece.... how a horseshoe crab got a couple eyes, the entire structure of the cosmos must command I don't snuggle with my monogamous partner of five or six yearscause we're both girls and the God Of Billion-Year Eternity Would Allow More 9/11 To Come Through The Magic Curtain If We Don't Have To Pay Lawyers Thousands To Secure The Rights Drunken Straights Can Get On Demand For Fifty Bucks at A Drive-Thru Elvis-Impersonating Chapel In Vegas...

Well, ya know. My Irredeemable Immorality: Brought to you by the Fox Netwework that can't seem to advertise 'Girls Gone Wild' videos enough while using their own tasteless programming to claim America is too 'decadent and sinful' ... while claiming... Well... you know.

Don't you?

"The rest of your post left me somewhat confused. But another time, it is late for me. Good night, friend."

Late for me, too, friend.

But, you think *you're* confused.

How do you think *I* feel. :) I can barely get out the Mother-lovin *door* without having to account for someone else's confusion. :)

MM, Priver! But, no!

" Priver:

Please know, Arminius, that you are a rare person indeed, who would stand up for someone even though they have a different worldview.."

It's not all so rare. Precious in any number, but not so rare as people will tell them they are.

They just get drowned out. And called 'liars.'

Not so rare.

Too rare. But not as rare as some will lead us (And more importantly, them) to believe.

"It absolutely astonishes me, and also brings me joy, that I have so much more in common with my Pagan friends in terms of basic morality than I have with the likes of JND. That person is blinded and walking in darkness."

Be astonished. Frankly, I highly commend learning to relish that sensation, cause, folks like JND believe life is already over except for the screaming.

That's no way to live, not in the name of Anybody.

He doesn't believe he deserves life-as-we-are. He doesn't think *anyone* deserves it.

I have seen the effects of these teachings upon countless people.

Like Gramma's own corvids, I may wear black, but I am not the 'darkness' so many fear. I walk into dark places and carry a bit of Sun.

Certain Fundies fear their personal deaths *so much* that they have what amounts to a deathwish-for-the-world.

Fear the *idea* of death, for that matter, so much that they are *scared beyond logic* about this particular universe only having some thirty billion years to go.

Gods. Who sold you that worry? If you think your cerebellum's all that important, consider that as homo sapiens, we're pretty much evolved to be very good at throwing rocks at other rocks, and if you fear the 'end of the world,' deflect some asteroids instead of freaking out about about people not oppressing me and my sweetie for being 'decadent queers,' cause I'm *sure* Jeebus would be *so* happy to know about it if it was *straight* sex I was having on those occasions when I'm not feeling the effects of 'compassionate conservatism' too much in my arthritic joints to do too much more than sit here and talk to Jack Chick true-believers who have nothing better to do than defame my people....

(What, you think I spend all this time on the Net cause I think it overrides other experiences I could be having? Get real.)

Seriously. Forget about it.

Some of these guys will talk like 'Only Jeebus can save us from this imaginary scenario I insist overrides real human needs or common decency.... Or else the mortal human mind does not command all knowledge of eternity. '

Yah, yah.

It's not so.

Let's start with just the planet, shall we?

I have a daughter. Who will live in what we make.

Your denial does not impress me.

The First Mystery

Then this is the First of the Great Mysteries:
“ In the spiritual we are all children, we must continue to grow or are spirit dies. Never stop learning, for knowledge is the food of the hungry soul”.

terra

Arminius,
Dear friend, you have a light shineing of truth and spirit. As Paganplace said...Blessed Be!

terra

It's getting late here too, and I've been up since about 4 this morning - everyone have a great Friday if I don't talk to you - tomorrow's going to be busy - packing in the morning, heading to New Orleans to see a friend with a new baby in the afternoon, then a lecture by Eve Ensler in the evening. I can't wait.

Please know, Arminius, that you are a rare person indeed, who would stand up for someone even though they have a different worldview.. it's people like you who give me hope for what the best of Christianity could be.. For someone raised Jewish
not always understanding how Christianity can inspire people to be better- Yours is an example that others would do well to follow.

Kudos to Paganplace and Lepi too for being able to say far more eloquently than I what I'd tried to earlier. My emotions still tend to get the best of me from time to time. As with most things, it's a work in progress. It's a reminder that while inroads are being made, there's still a lot of work to do- for me, from the inside out- and a lot to learn.

Blessed be all... :)

PaganPlace,

You can say 'blessed be' to me any time, and I will be honored.

The rest of your post left me somewhat confused. But another time, it is late for me. Good night, friend.

Arminius

And blessed be, yourself, Arminius. :)

(If I may be so bold as to say 'blessed be' around a guy who reads comic books that say only the Elizabethan English of the KJV is the 'absolute word of the God that never mentioned M-theory...'

Gods know you got your work cut out for you. ;)

Forget about their penis issues we see here. . Gods. I think homophobia has *become* their religion, not that that's not in the tradition of St. Paul.

That dude had issues.

Big issues.

Paganplace, Lep, and others,

It absolutely astonishes me, and also brings me joy, that I have so much more in common with my Pagan friends in terms of basic morality than I have with the likes of JND. That person is blinded and walking in darkness. All he/she has to do is open his/her eyes and see the goodness, compassion, and shared morality of so many of his/her fellow man. Creation is a gift, life is a gift. We must not reject it because we are waiting for some sort of 'end of the world' scenario. Oh, it is late, and I am running out of words....

Arminius

And, btw, JND. You say this to Arminius, ....another example of how some Christians have come around to treating each *other* and defending it on the basis that it's in the name of the 'One True way,' no matter who you're seeking to harm and defame... for.... what. Whatever you think you get out of it, I guess:

"And it's not just you that's involved. If you say false things - if you imply people can be righteous before God without the atoning work of Christ AS YOU HAVE BEEN DOING, I have a duty out of love for those reading your postings to WARN them that your teachings are NOT Christian."

Actually, I remember making a nice and clever album cover with a Jack Chick tract that said *No one is righteous, not no one'*

Way I see that, 'Righteous' is off the table. If you rely on that same book.

Even inside your own belief, if Jesus sacrificed himself to himself to stop himself from eternally burning everyone who didn't happen to believe certain people with obvious ulterior motives....

Well, did it work or not?

If it worked, if there was anything to fear in the first place, what are you in a twist about, even if you believed it was needful, once, and for all?

Who decided that meant everyone had to be your brand of Fundie or suffer eternally in this world and the next?

Who attached those conditions to yer 'Amazing Grace?'

Do you really think you're 'that guy?'

Who told you that being convinced of something in yer grey matter about what someone wrote down in committee at the Council of Nicaea was the one and only way to 'not suffer forever and ever in the name of 'love?''

Guess what. A bird in the hand is, in your book, supposed to be worth some number of birds in the bush.. if you're of a mind to buy and sell birds in the first place.

You think our *names* ...honest and sincere and often in plain English are hard for you to get your mind around, therefore you feel entitled to mock and oppress?

You, JND, have not only become alien to your own heritage, (someone substituted this for you with a defamatory comic book and some notions that absolutes justify abuse of any human that doesn't take the time to pick your logic apart,) ... You've become alien to people who sincerely do their best to live by the sayings of your Great Teacher.

And you think it a virtue to try and enhance that alienation, as long as you're strident about it.

Do you believe it serves your God to lie about my people?

Do you think it serves your God to lie about Arminius?

To claim you know his heart, or mine, or those of my people?

If so, ...why? What 'profit' do you think to gain by 'winning the world?'

That's *your* language.

And if, in your religious language, you believe your Jesus settled some existential debt that you believe you carry for being human and keep living *down* to...

Why do you take such pains to defame, not only Pagans, but other sincere Christians?

Where does *that* end?

You seem to need to believe that if the Earth must return to the Sun half-a-lifespan-of-a-main-sequence-star-from-now... that 'only my book can 'save' anyone from... life... That somehow the universe.. 'God,' even, is that *anal* about what words one believes in and who you blame for feeling so scared as you clearly do.

You claim you gain some 'absolute moral power' from the notion your Savior was born as a human, lived, and thought and died and was reborn and is expected to return again.

Guess what.

If he was 'saving' you from irrational fears and orthodoxies and 'original sins' and damnations by doing so....

Not trying to say, 'Only by worshipping me like some cargo cult through Whatever Some Self-Styled Authority Says That Means Can You Escape Horrible Eternal Torture And Receive Unspecified Eternal Bliss... Obey The Power Of The Magic Book!'

*I* think he was trying to say, "Hey, you folks in Judea... If you think a sacrifice is needed, then *here ya go.*

Satisfied?

Apparently not.

Kindly remember that that's *your* business, JND.

The rest of the world's trying to live, here.

To my Pagan friends,

I am really at a loss for words here. I am humbled by your support and friendship. I don't often go tilting at windmills, but I had to do so here.

Thank you, and, as a Christian would say, God bless.

Arminius

Eh, JND, if I met yer Jesus in the Summerland, he'd be looking at people like yourself, and going, "Look what I got to deal with. Don't suppose I could interest you in temping?"

Gods, you guys take yourselves so *seriously.* Ashes to ashes, ...no one said you had to walk around with a can of kerosene and a Zippo.

I know you believe that your God is dangling your tootsies over a fire and any slight misstep brings doom.

Then you wonder why others are unimpressed with your 'morality.'

That's cause you run around *ahem*-scared and lash out at anything to appease that fear.

If you believe in your own dude, *don't be afraid so.* Not for yourself, not for me, not for anything else like that.

You like to talk about huge timescales and absolutes and decide it all must hang on where some man (unrepresented in this discussion) gets some attention for his member.

Your ilk love to try and scare a lot of people. Dehumanize others. And tie yourselves in knots trying to control what you have no right to.

And destroy what you can't.

Downside of your tactics is that people learn better, given time, and that leaves you looking for more and more 'enemies' to blame.

Upside is, ...That's illusion.

If you believe your Jesus 'saved' you from something, take a page out of the Pagan playbook.

Accept that gift and live. Stop trying to re-enact it.

Yes, I have a real soul. Your imagination of my presumptive 'sins' out of some *book* is *not* real.

It is a belief. In your mortal brain.

We Pagans stand *in* and *with* and *on* our Creator (we say Mother, it's really more apt) *every day.*

Frankly, it's a pretty big multiiverse. Somehow I figure the Highest Divinity don't get Their information about what's in a Pagan out of Jack Chick tracts and sit around and judge you on that basis.

Go figure.

Arminius, this is one of the reasons I love you

>>>The central message of Jesus was/is LOVE. Not wallowing in some fear of punishment, not groveling for whatever sins, but recognizing our sins, repenting, and getting up again and going confidently forward knowing that God's love is with you. And indeed, that God is with you.

Whie I would phrase it differently, we have this core belief in common.
Take ownership of your mistakes, correct them the best you can, learn from them, endeavor not to make the same ones again (especially since there are so many exciting new ones out there to make), live mindfully, and know that always, you are a part of the All,and the All is a part of you.

You'll make a fine Pagan one day. ;)

Perhaps that's why the recidivism rate is so low among Pagans.

JND,

Your reply was as expected.

Indeed the Second Great Commandment was an echo from Leviticus. But, as appparently you did not notice, our Lord did NOT include the typical OT other stuff. His blessed message was not rebuking, but accepting.

The central message of Jesus was/is LOVE. Not wallowing in some fear of punishment, not groveling for whatever sins, but recognizing our sins, repenting, and getting up again and going confidently forward knowing that God's love is with you. And indeed, that God is with you. I know that. I feel it every day. I am sorry that you do not.

Jesus taught us, first and foremost, how to live for today, and walk in the light. To live with compassion, with love, and set an example, not stand on the street corners bellowing hellfire sermons.

I pity you, for you walk in darkness. Read the Gospels, and accept God's light. Please.

Arminius

Arminius, you are *misinterpreting* "love". Read Leviticus 19:17-18 (which is what Jesus refers to when he says love thy neighbor). Love is defined as "Thou shalt in anywise *rebuke* thy neighbor and not suffer sin upon him".

And it's not just you that's involved. If you say false things - if you imply people can be righteous before God without the atoning work of Christ AS YOU HAVE BEEN DOING, I have a duty out of love for those reading your postings to WARN them that your teachings are NOT Christian.

You have been entrusted with great light - your judgment will be severer than those with lesser light. WHY do you remain a Christian if you do not believe it's central message? At least don't tell people your message is the Christian message.

Religion isn't self help therapy, where multiple styles can coexist based on individual taste. Then I would be rude and bigoted. But people have real souls and real sins, and they will stand before the Creator one day to give an accounting of themselves. And woe to them if they are not covered by the Righteousness of Christ. Please *CONSIDER* what you are doing.

Anyway, JND. You want me to read all manner of stuff, *you read what *I* say.

Right here. To you.

And forget about Jack Chick. Speaking of liars and deceivers. It might not exactly be in your reality-matrix, but we are not characters out of your Bible or your comic books. It's damaging at times when you say that stuff to people who *don't know us,* but it's *downright absurd* when you try to tell *us* those books have more to say about our lives than we do.

Understand?

And, I don't have a copy of 'Mere Christianity' at the moment. If I ever owned one I gave it away (not everyone who's come to me with spiritual crisis was Pagan or wanting to be, yaknow.)

I think yer man Jesus there said, 'Love your enemies,' not, 'Love to *have* enemies.'

We're not your enemies. Whatever you fantasize.

Actually, we make pretty good friends and neighbors, if you can find it in your heart to deal with some names you find funny.

Well, that and not thinking that the world's gotta end, and Very Soon.... *Again.* (Gods, but that gets tired after a few lifetimes.)

Particularly, I didn't sit through the Cold War so people could *still* be insisting the world's gonna end, so blame PP and friends ...blame anyone for not being apocalyptic enough, rather than deal with the fact the West is *still a bit twitchy from living with that nuclear gun to our heads all that time.*

Gods.

Face up and deal. We're going to live. Unless we're very, very stupid, and insist on believing in substitute 'Apocalypses,' complete with 'witches' to burn. Or blame.

There's still a lot to heal in that regard. And also a lot of work we should be doing, so maybe when you wake up in your next life here, you won't find an unnecessarily-feudal standard of living.

Or you could humor me and stop spending the meek's inheritance. :)

Your 'eternities.' Gods, I'm only about fourty and I'm *already* a bit cranky. I'm not planning on being the same personality in thirty billion years, nor ignoring the present on some basis that if things change and/or 'end' that it's not worth the journey.

Permanence is overrated. Never mind being a necessary condition for we higher primates to have civil rights in America.

Wow, Lep!

Thanks. The claymore is set aside, and I could not find the woad anyway. You have my respect and my love.

Arminius

Arminius,

Put down the claymore and the woad pot, my dear, tempting though it is.

You sir, are an example of one who makes a sincere attempt to walk the Jesus walk, and for that, you have my respect.

*little gesture.*

No debt. We're all in this together. :)

PaganPlace,

I owe you one. Thanks, dear lady.

Arminius

Oh, I've read a whole lot of CS Lewis. He's got nothing good to say about my ancestors, and does the usual sorting error of attributing everything good in people to Jesus or 'prefigurations' of such, but there's some OK thinking in there. Hardly flawless, and hardly a basis to claim I have no 'basis for morality at all' just because I don't divine it indirectly out of a *book.*

No, Arminius isn't a 'liar and deceiver.' Min you, I don't believe his book is true, but at least he doesn't think 'Obnoxiously-hateful and bigoted' means 'Principled.'

I am morally indignant about 'Opposition to Paganism' because human minds and souls are *not* digits on some scoreboard. Because, and when, and inasmuch as there is injustice and defamation involved.

And I do the same for Arminius, who'll tell you we've had some pretty spirited arguments before.

But he learns, rather than defames.

He reasons, rather than *rationalizes* and expects that obfuscating with pseudo-science makes him Ultimately Right and in a position to claim dominion over my life, here in America. He even turned the other cheek a bit when I vented about some distressing experiences under the Bible Belt.

And he doesn't run around trying to 'prove' I'm something bad which I ain't, based on some *random and false assumption* I'm a *gay man* and therefore 'sick' cause of whatever was in your imagination at the time, rather than the subject at hand and my words.

Tellingly, you and Anonymous went on for *pages* with wild speculations how everyone must be 'lying' or the same person, or *anything but* some people with the *facts* telling you you had it wrong.

We're all just words on the Net to each other here, but on that basis, I don't think you're the one who gets to assert Arminius is a 'liar.'

Anyway. Cosmology.

None of what you say about it so far proves anything, even by your own rules, about us as people, never mind whether or not you get to be the one how we worship or take care of people in prison.

OK, JND, you have gone too far.

First, greetings and praise to my Pagan friends here. You have maintained a reasoned yet spirited defense. You ladies are formidable indeed! And thanks, PaganPlace, for the compliment.

JND, I cannot believe you have the arrogance to describe yourself as Christian. What happened to the Beatitudes? Where are the Two Great Commandments? Have you forgotten Paul - "...left are faith, hope, and love. And the greatest of these is love." You got all the answers, huh? You are not seeing through a glass darkly like the rest of us? Do you not know that our risen Lord preached compassion and love, reaching out to our fellow man, not despising him as you do?

YOU are false, YOU are to be pitied, you have not comprehended the message of the Gospels.

Arminius
(trying to control the ancestral Celtic fury)

PP:"You should listen to folks like Arminius. He represents your divinities a lot better than lying to our faces about our own lives. :)"

Arminius is a liar and deceiver. Please don't listen to him - he's only interested in having people think what a swell fellow he is more than telling you the truth. He does not represent Christianity.

Why are you so morally indignant about opposition to paganism? You have no basis for morality at all. You may *act* as if there's a universal moral standard (hence the indignation), but you have no basis on your worldview to believe this. You should read the first few chapters of "Mere Christianity".

Anyway, JND, back up there ...whatever you were trying to get at by it, it looked like you were trying to extend Zeno's Paradox to say infinite time is impossible (which is of limited consequence in the original 'argument' you were making, anyway for reasons I'll try to get into in a minute) because of the fact you could always divide the time further and never reach the present time.

That Zeno's Paradox resolution simply recognizes that a 'moment' is a perceptual artifact and not a real thing in physics or the like.

Therefore, an argument based on the existence of 'moments' as things in physics just isn't operative, anyway.

This universe is described as 'finite but unbounded,'

Like... A circle... That is open... And yet unbroken.... :)

... and this particular universe is currently projected to be a result of interactions between great 'membranes' that are described as existing in a far *bigger* multiverse, in some state of eleven dimensions...

We chart spacetime in *this* universe, which does have an origin point, but this doesn't mean it had to arise spontaneously by some dude making it from the outside... Or that all existence ends when this one does. I do like to figure that whatever I am in some twenty billion years, I'll get to see something new. :) Doesn't mean that the Big Bang says anything of necessity about 'the Infinite.' Every time we think we've found something out about the 'ends' of the universe, we find that what we thought was our world is really part of something much vaster.

I can live with that.

To a Pagan mind, this is just another great cycle of birth, death, and rebirth, and, frankly, we don't much fear about 'eternity,' never mind thinking that only *postulating* an eternal reward makes life meaningful. ...or a spiritual path beneficial.

We don't really fear 'death' as you do, (Mind you, *dying* can be about as alarming to me as anyone else with a spinal column, but hey. :))
Not death. Everything returns in different forms. Getting alarmed if a universe will be the same way in some twenty two billion years just isn't our style. :)

Call it faith. :)

But, no, we don't have a presumption that death has that kind of dominion. Death happens. You get better. Well, if you're careful about learning. ;)

Anyway, Terra, speaking of topic... Ever wonder how many of these arguments we have to have on this kind of level before people start figuring, "OK, maybe we shouldn't be obstructing the rights of these Americans on the basis they haven't argued the same points to death with *every* Christian who wants to insistently believe they are, and portray them as, ...inherently bad people regardless of what they say or do? "

Yes, we have religion, Christians. Yes, it's somewhat different from yours. No, it's not 'evil,' or any of those other things you say about us on your own terms out of mis-or-dis-information. If we believed the same sort of things as you do we'd... be in some religions more like yours.

Being different does not mean you get to define us. Or 'prove' we're 'lying' when our own lives don't match up to the disinformation you folks seem to love to keep trying to insist is the 'truth' about us, to yourselves, each other, and to our faces.

Look at that report up there. A dying Pagan being led to believe that their clergy had deserted them because their mail was being intercepted.

Is that the 'Truth' you think you represent? Or is that something else?

Maybe once with the disinformation is ignorance. Twice is willful ignorance, and more than that is, frankly, hostility and defamation.

You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own *facts.*

The reason American institutions, especially ones that use force or compulsion, (like say, a prison,) are supposed to be religiously-neutral with reasonable accommodation for all faiths is *precisely because* it is not for your religion to decide which other religions to 'tolerate,' and how much, based on your own religious belief that your Bible is literally true whatever you use it to say, especially if you seem to need to take it as an article of faith that if St. Paul had some very nasty things to say about some people you choose to identify with us, then that means it's OK to deceive and oppress us because your beliefs about your Bible are supposed to hold more weight than the realities of people's lives and hearts and spirits.

That's *exactly* why America is set up for religious freedom. Cause if it's not us you're going after, next it's Jews and Muslims and Catholics and subsects of Protestantism... And it never ends.

Doesn't take much reading of history to see that.

I don't even need to read about it, cause I see it all too often.

You should listen to folks like Arminius. He represents your divinities a lot better than lying to our faces about our own lives. :)

As prisons go, well, maybe you should spend less time trying to convince everyone we're awful people, (Apparently on the sole basis we're not Christians in the first place) and more on letting some folks in there who can help make sure all these folks finding the Old Gods in there hear something *other* than claims we're about fantastic magic powers, empty hedonism, and your Devil.

And, Anonymous, if you couldn't read what I wrote at the *time,* I'm not throwing more words at it. Posts you made here. Were deleted earlier. As evidenced by they went away between earlier today and then. I don't see any of *my* posts missing, for that matter. You're basing whatever you're trying to prove on probably-willfully-poor reading comprehension. Certainly none of it proves your 'Mysterious Paganplace Conspiracy' theory. You're speaking untruths. Or. Yes. Very confused.

Maybe the fact you're doing that is why you refuse to pick a name and expect people to address the same 'anonymous' you as weeks ago.

JND-"Bill Craig (http://reasonablefaith.org) is the master of this argument. Give him a chance to prove his case".

I am not PP but I visited the site...Intelligent Design...Creationism in a suit.
I think they do not know the difference between scientific theory and hypothesis.

terra

Lepidopteryx, that metaphor is double edged. We could both claim to be the freed prisoner telling the unfreed prisoners about the world outside. In fact it reminds me of St Paul in 1 Co 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

I build my case first on hopefully objective things we can agree on (cosmology, conscience, design, historicity of the gospel narratives).

PaganPlace: you cannot equate Zeno's paradox with the Kalaam Cosmological argument. The paradox is traversing a finite distance in a finite amount of time at a finite speed, even though the distance can be infinitely subdivided. Kalaam is more akin to pointing out you *can't* traverse an *infinite* distance in a finite amount of time at a finite speed. Why are "moments" unreal? Moments of time are real, finite things, even though they can be infinitely subdivided. Bill Craig (http://reasonablefaith.org) is the master of this argument. Give him a chance to prove his case.

pp, "Umm, look at the statement I *quoted,* if you're confused what I was talking about when I *quoted* it.

Your deleted posts. Not there. Hence deleted.

No, you didn't 'prove' anything except that reason seems to have fled over there. It's no conspiracy. I don't know the mods. Whatever you think you 'prove' in your confusion."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm confused?? You are the one that ascertains I have has post deleted, anty up, if you can, maybe you are confused, huh????

"Again you keep posting the same spam web sites to go look at and I keep quoting scripture, it is permissible, end of story."

Umm, no, I don't. That's another falsehood on your part.

If you hadn't noticed, I can be quite verbose on my own without linking to anything or quoting.

Or maybe you've got it in your mind I'm "really" also some other poster.

Still just more untruth. Stop with the trolling if you're so indignant.

JND,
Read Plato's "The Allegory of the Cave."

It may enlighten your perspective.
terra

Umm, look at the statement I *quoted,* if you're confused what I was talking about when I *quoted* it.

Your deleted posts. Not there. Hence deleted.

No, you didn't 'prove' anything except that reason seems to have fled over there. It's no conspiracy. I don't know the mods. Whatever you think you 'prove' in your confusion.

Ahem.

Anyway, Lepi, I think you're under no obligation to explain your screen name. Not to someone like that, anyway.

You're addressing someone who doesn't seem to realize how many affectations and turns of speech Christians like to indulge.... like they're universal law or a justification to mistreat others, in fact.

It's like, what, we can't have names and blessings to say, or something? Religions have these things, you know. :)

(We have our own varying standards on when a name is excessive or silly, thanks, it's a favorite thing to joke about in the Pagan community, even.

I can just see that guy doing 'missionary work.' Would he bluster around and say, "I am superior, all your names sound silly."

Frankly, the common names that people pick from a limited list in Christian society used to mean something in some old language or another, too.

Like, 'Arthur' means something like 'Bear-warrior,' and all.

It's a common Pagan custom to choose a name that means something. We *like* em. You find this all over the world, particularly when people *change* religions.

pp, "....while directing Biblical verses at people who keep pointing out that that's meaningless to us..."

~~~~~~~~~~

Again you keep posting the same spam web sites to go look at and I keep quoting scripture, it is permissible, end of story.

Get used to it. you and your pagan group constantly post web site after web site and direct people to go view them as proof the Earth is God.

So, you want to post what you want, but tell people not to dispute your disinformation about themselves...

....while directing Biblical verses at people who keep pointing out that that's meaningless to us...

While complaining that someone else is "forcing advice on you" cause you anonymously said "Don't talk to me" last month sometime.

Think we can see the pattern here.

And, yeah, I pretty much do ignore Bible quotes ...not like we haven't heard all the nasty ones used to defame us before.

pp, "Look. Scroll up past *this* bout of nonsense.

They ain't there.

*sigh.*"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What ain't up there??? I have no idea what you are referring to but obliviously you do. Like I said you think that you have "privileged" contact with the moderators and call the shots on this and other sits.

You just proved my point, thank you.

JND:
**And all these artificial affectations and mannerisms you adopt ("blessed be", "merry meet", names like eagleriverwindhawkrainoaktree). Don't tell me you actually believe this? Time to stop pretending.**

"Merry meet" is a greeting. We prefer it to "How y'all are?"

"Blessed be" is an expression of goodwill and acknowledgement of the Divine in all - it's no different than if a Christian says "Go with God."

Spiritual names are carefully chosen. Mine is a hybrid of "Lepidoptera," which is the taxonomic class of butterflies, and "phoenix," the bird which is reborn from the ashes of its own death. Both are symbolic of transormation, of life from death. I chose that name after a very nasty divorce (partly over my ex-husband's refusal to acknowledge my right to my religion) left me feeling dead and ugly. The butterfly and the phoenix signify my decision to create for myself the life I wanted and needed to live, and to leave behind the one that someone else wanted me to live. It is every bit as much my real name as the oneo n my birth certificate.

Paganplace:

"Forcing our advice on you?"

"Kind of funny coming from someone who quotes Bible verses to call people they don't even know the gender of 'sick.'

It's clear you don't respect us. And simply seek to harm in any way you can. Then get whiny when called on it."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quoting the bible is well within my right to do on this forum and as I have said to you and others many times I will continue to do it.

Use your own advice if you don't like the post, don't read it, as I have said before also regarding quoting scripture. This is a faith site remember?

"Correction: I never once said that my post got deleted, you said that."

Look. Scroll up past *this* bout of nonsense.

They ain't there.

*sigh.*

LP, "Since the moderators are the only ones with the ability to remove people's posts, it would seem a no-brainer that if your post got deleted, it was because it contained something the mods felt violated the posting guidelines."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Correction: I never once said that my post got deleted, you said that.

Seems the mods already spoke for themselves. My presumptions about it are my own. I don't know them. Nor did I say I did. As usual, that's something you came up with in your head and decided to try and claim is factual. To prove... what, I dunno.

Hear that, folks, there's more than two of us together, we must think we own the site.

Listen, this ain't even hardball. You want to come and froth Biblical accusations about real people, then whine, 'Pagans are mean and disrespectful,' when someone says *boo* about it, for purposes of ...what, trying to hurt us?

Expect small regard.

Lep, "You might want to take your own advice there. Pagans aren't the ones yelling "Convert or perish." And there's a difference between you disagreeing with us (which is perfectly fine) and slandering us (which is NOT acceptable)."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No you are just extremely judgmental with criticisms, demeaning and belittling comment and constantly telling me and others to "get off the posting board if we don't like what you and your pagan’s friends say or the way you speak to us.

Since the moderators are the only ones with the ability to remove people's posts, it would seem a no-brainer that if your post got deleted, it was because it contained something the mods felt violated the posting guidelines.

pp, "Seems to me you're the one who had some posts removed by the mods, here. For, I presume, the very off-topic attacks regarding what you imagined my sex life was... and I forget who decided that we must be 'liars' for correcting various slanders."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Are you speaking for the moderators?? Exactly, my point you think that you own this site and can dictate to others the ground rules and present yourself to be one that gets special consideration from the moderates.

Additionally, this is not the first time you have claimed to know what the moderator’s actions have been regarding the removing of people’s post. Is there something that we all need to know about your claim of havin “privileged” contacts with the moderators? Do tell.

Anon:
**Are you kidding me you force your advise on me after I respectfully told you not to address me and the demeaning comments?**

No one can force advice on you. You don't have to read posts addressed to you if they're from someone you don't like. For example, I often skip posts by CCNL because they're always the same anti-Muslim rants.

**One thing that you do not realize is that although you are a group that agrees and are dominate with your criticisms, demeaning, and belittling comments to those that do not agree with you, that does not give you the right to “run people” off the posting board.**

Who have we run off?

**And grow up please, as I have told you in times past, many times, it is okay for people not to agree with you, so live with it.**

You might want to take your own advice there. Pagans aren't the ones yelling "Convert or perish." And there's a difference between you disagreeing with us (which is perfectly fine) and slandering us (which is NOT acceptable).

"Forcing our advice on you?"

Kind of funny coming from someone who quotes Bible verses to call people they don't even know the gender of 'sick.'

It's clear you don't respect us. And simply seek to harm in any way you can. Then get whiny when called on it.

To claim we 'can't possibly have moral values' unless someone like yourself comes along with a Bible to impose them with state power or abuses thereof, as the report in question documents...

That's even beyond 'unwanted advice' and well into willful disinformation. What 'dominates the discussion' is people thinking we're here for their personal proselytization and whatever jollies they get out of imagining gay people having sex and calling it 'sick, sick, sick.'

If you don't want to read that, then you don't have to.

We're trying to *have* a discussion, and like when any non-Christian posts, what dominates it is having to defend ourselves against defamation from people who *don't want to know the truth about the lives they seek to harm.*

Frankly, using a book to justify whatever you feel like doing in the first place doesn't sound very 'moral' to yer average Pagan. Not at all.

"Maybe you ought to chill out a bit.

And if you want to be taken more seriously, try not coming in with ridiculous insults that aren't even remotely on-topic. Apart, of course, for supplying yet more prime examples of the bigotry we face out there."

~~~~~~~~~~

Are you kidding me you force your advise on me after I respectfully told you not to address me and the demeaning comments?

I do not want your advise, I do not respect you, get the picture? As far as "idiculous insults that aren't even remotely on-topic," I have some of those saved to my flash drive to that you and you pagan friends posted.

One thing that you do not realize is that although you are a group that agrees and are dominate with your criticisms, demeaning, and belittling comments to those that do not agree with you, that does not give you the right to “run people” off the posting board.
You chill and take a break form you addicting habit of posting. And grow up please, as I have told you in times past, many times, it is okay for people not to agree with you, so live with it.

"I have had enough."

Welcome to the club.

On this: "Post of mine that you have re-posted several times to try and show that I am abusing the posting board. It should be easy to track the IP addresses on this posts."

I have no idea what you're talking about, to be honest. I don't re-post other people's posts, particularly not for the purposes you seem to figure I'd bother with. As I recall, you got in a snit about your refusal to post under a name while making the usual attacks.

Seems to me you're the one who had some posts removed by the mods, here. For, I presume, the very off-topic attacks regarding what you imagined my sex life was... and I forget who decided that we must be 'liars' for correcting various slanders.

Maybe you ought to chill out a bit.

And if you want to be taken more seriously, try not coming in with ridiculous insults that aren't even remotely on-topic. Apart, of course, for supplying yet more prime examples of the bigotry we face out there.

I meant lots of luck proving that you are being abused.

ANON:
**Anonymous:
I am going to copy the post from 2/24/08 as well as other posts made by many of those professed to be pagans that contained personal attacks directed at me and send them in an e-mail to David Waters.

Post of mine that you have re-posted several times to try and show that I am abusing the posting board. It should be easy to track the IP addresses on this posts.**

Lotsa luck with that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I do not need luck, I saved a copy of them on my flash drive............any questions?

ANON:
**Anonymous:
I am going to copy the post from 2/24/08 as well as other posts made by many of those professed to be pagans that contained personal attacks directed at me and send them in an e-mail to David Waters.

Post of mine that you have re-posted several times to try and show that I am abusing the posting board. It should be easy to track the IP addresses on this posts.**

Lotsa luck with that.

**I am comfortable now that I can put a stop to your group dominating the posting board.

I have had enough.**

Perhaps you'd be happier at Landover Baptist?

"Unbunch your undies, dear - that can't be comfortable."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am comfortable now that I can put a stop to your group dominating the posting board.

I have had enough.

I am going to copy the post from 2/24/08 as well as other posts made by many of those professed to be pagans that contained personal attacks directed at me and send them in an e-mail to David Waters.

Post of mine that you have re-posted several times to try and show that I am abusing the posting board. It should be easy to track the IP addresses on this posts.

ANON:
**pp, "May I draw your attention in particular to the one about 'bearing false witness.'"

~~~~~~~~~~~

No you may not, I have told you in previous post specifically on 2/24/07 not to address me because of the demeaning and belittling way you speak to me, so save your opinion, I have absolutely no respect for you at all.**

If you refuse to post a name, how is one to know from one post to the next which of the many Anonymi who populate this site are which, and whether or not you are the one who wishes not to be spoken to?

Furthermore, if you don't want a response, why go to the trouble of typing a post?

**You and your gang do not own this site and I am free to say what I please within the guidelines set by WAPO for posting comments. So get use to it!**

No one said we owned the site. You may indeed say anything you wish to anyone posting here as long as it's within the moderators' guidelines. So can anyone else, including people you'd rather not have respond to your posts. You don't get to choose who responds to which posts.

Unbunch your undies, dear - that can't be comfortable.

Oh, now we're 'belittling' you because we are having to correct slanders, Anonymous?

Besides, if you don't post under a *name,* I can't tell who 'you' are, never mind from weeks ago.

Gods. If you don't like our responses, show a little respect, yourself. Or go ahead and stick your fingers in your ears and quote the Bible to 'prove' we're 'guilty' of some things you apparently think you can magically see over the Internet.

If that's not 'false witness' by *your* standards, I don't know what is.

pp, "May I draw your attention in particular to the one about 'bearing false witness.'"

~~~~~~~~~~~

No you may not, I have told you in previous post specifically on 2/24/07 not to address me because of the demeaning and belittling way you speak to me, so save your opinion, I have absolutely no respect for you at all.

You and your gang do not own this site and I am free to say what I please within the guidelines set by WAPO for posting comments. So get use to it!

Well, well, well. Aren't they at it bright and early, today. Anyone else notice this comes right after the Catholic press has been trotting out the usual disinformation on the heels of that Pew survey?

MM, Terra, Lady Rowen, etc.

Yep, I'm a girl, (mostly, hahaha) :) wrong slurs, there, buddy. Still wondering who you think 'destroyed your property' by being gay or Pagan or what. :)

And, futile as I suspect it is to talk about physics and logic with this guy:

"The universe must have had an origin, we know because a) big bang"

This universe isn't the only one: our observable universe and the event that we know as the Big Bang have been figured out to have come from the interaction of two multidimensional 'membranes' ...we're sort of like a bubble of foam on a much bigger sea. So while *this* universe has an origin, it doesn't necessarily have to have begun from nothing.

"b) if the universe had existed eternally, we would have had to traverse an infinite amount of time to get to this moment, therefore this moment could not have arrived yet. Since it has, the premise of an infinitely old universe is absurd."

Actually, someone resolved Zeno's Paradox a few years ago with the simple observation that moments are not real things. So, suddenly, that's not so absurd.

The universe is bigger than our human perceptions, or, in fact, any humanlike 'intelligent designer.'

To us, though, it's *alive* in some way.

Who knew. You can get spiritual about that.

:)

(Oh, pick a name, Anonymous. Just type it in the ol' box up there. You can do it.)

And, we really don't care what harmless behaviors and people your religion calls 'sin,' that's not our observance and not our Bible. Your Commandments are for *you,* not us.

May I draw your attention in particular to the one about 'bearing false witness.'

On this, JND, no, you don't get our worldview when you say these things:

" JND:

ok, Terra Gazelle - using your own world view - your gods are only "things in the world" like us, or like aliens if they existed. That leaves the questions - where did the universe come from? Where do moral values come from? They must come from *outside*, and that is where paganism falls down. "

The Gods aren't 'only things in the world,' by no means. They just aren't *separated* from it.

Where's the universe come from? Somewheres around here, actually. Wherever you may be standing. :)

Where do 'moral values' come from? Our humanity.

You're the one that believes they must come from outside. We don't, actually. These are a *capacity* we have to *create* as we learn more about life and ourselves and our world.

Many of us would say we co-create them *with* the Gods, too.

Your assumptions just aren't as universal as you think.

Ray is an evangelist, not a mathematician or biologist (such as Dr. Dembski or Dr. Behe). Yes I saw the Gisburne video, very droll. Ray himself admitted his argument was tongue in cheek on hellboundalleee

Ray comfort, the guy who proves intelligent design with a banana?

Have you seen the video of the guy who disproves it with a pineapple using Comfort's own talking points?

I have contacted Davis Waters about this issue as well.

ok, Terra Gazelle - using your own world view - your gods are only "things in the world" like us, or like aliens if they existed. That leaves the questions - where did the universe come from? Where do moral values come from? They must come from *outside*, and that is where paganism falls down.

The universe must have had an origin, we know because a) big bang b) if the universe had existed eternally, we would have had to traverse an infinite amount of time to get to this moment, therefore this moment could not have arrived yet. Since it has, the premise of an infinitely old universe is absurd.

JND,

Why use your religious beliefs to preach to us? We are not Christian. If you want to show us the light...use our light.

We are not saving stamps...do not need saved or redemption.

AS far as loveing the Creation or Creator...Whose DNA do you have? We all have the DNA of who created us...

Anon,
PP is a female. We honor all ways of loveing. And love is the magick word...it seems to me that if you look for dirt you will find it.

Lady Rowan...hugs dear...I am feeling better, kinda.

terra

Well...nothing like having to search for what I just posted...and find that it has not posted and the whole column has been demoted. Without even a note to say where it is. This site is getting harder and harder to navagate. Please do something...a side bar would be nice.

So Starhawk gets a part of one day for her effort, she posts on the 5th and this is the 6th...while Colson gets a Panalist View plus a regular shot at the topic. How long will Chuckie get? I mean he is one of the ones that would be aggainst the rights of Pagans in prison.

Gee thanks On "Some" Faith. Pagans must be on a timer...\Maybe we need to know how long we have to get a shot at commenting.

I emailed David Waters about this around Feb. 10th. he said he would ask Starhawk to do something with it...we get a portion of one day.
Whooopie!

To say I am pissed is an understatement.
terra

Lady Rowen: "You consider Pagans to attached to the world because we see the divine within ourselves? We are part of the Wheel of Life, and the Divine is what connects us. In that sense yes we are “attached” at the same time we respect the Earth as well as the life She supports, how is that wrong? I must be missing something here."

My point is pagans are like a baby that loves the bottle rather than its mother. The earth is just an inanimate sphere of rock that will be destroyed. It is part of this fallen creation. It contains hints of beauty that point to the creator, but it is obviously not the creator, since it contains so much corruption.

You ARE divine in the sense you possess the Imago Dei, but like the rest of us you are fallen and in need of redemption.

Lady Rowen: "Pagans are required to dig within themselves, to know themselves. My personal experience has been that in getting to know myself I have forged a deeper relationship with the Lord and Lady. I am one with the Gods and they are one with me, there is no separation."

With all due respect Lady Rowen, you are fooling yourself. Read the words of the great Anglican preacher, Augustus Toplady, on original sin:

"Self-knowledge is a science to which most persons pretend; but, like the philosopher's stone it is a secret which none are masters of in its full extent. The mystic writers suppose that before the fall, man's body was transparent, analogous to a system of animated chrystal. Be this as it may, we are sure that, was the mind now to inhabit a pellucid body, so pellucid as to make manifest all the thoughts and all the evil workings of the holiest heart on earth, the sight would shock and frighten and astonish even_ the most profligate sinner on this side hell. Every man would be an insupportable burden to himself, and a stalking horror to the rest of his species. For which reasons among others,

Heaven's Sovereign saves all beings but himself
That hideous sight, a naked human heart.

The most enlightened believer in the, world knows not the utmost of his natural depravation, nor is able to fathom that inward abyss of iniquity which is perpetually throwing up mire and dirt; and which, like a spring of poison at the bottom of a well, infects and discolours the whole mass Let the light of Scripture and of grace give us ever such humbling views of ourselves, and lead us ever so far into the chambers of imagery within, there still are more and greater abominations beyond: and, somewhat like the ages of eternity, the farther we advance the more there is to come.

The heart of man, says God by the prophet, is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked: who can know it? -- In me, said the apostle, that is, in my flesh, abstracted from supernatural grace, dwelleth no good thing.--And, says a greater than both, From within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man (Mark vii). Is it possible that any who calls himself a Christian can, after considering the above declaration of Christ, dare to term the human mind a sheet of white paper? No - it is naturally a sheet of paper blotted and blurred throughout. So blotted and defiled all over, that nothing but the inestimable blood of God, and the invincible Spirit of grace, can make it clean and white.

Neither the temptations of Satan by which we are exercised, nor the bad examples of others which we are so prone to imitate, are the causes of this spiritual and moral leprosy. They are but the occasions of stirring up and of calling forth the latent corruptions within."

Patrick McCollum's presentation -

U. S. Commission on Civil Rights
Briefing on Prisoners' Religious Rights
Friday, February 8, 2008
Washington, DC

Remarks by Wiccan Chaplain Patrick McCollum

Position Statement on Religious Discrimination in Prisons

Good morning.

I would like to thank the Commission on behalf of the Wiccan community and on behalf of minority faiths in general, for offering us the opportunity to contribute to the dialogue on religious discrimination in United States’ prisons. I will focus primarily on the accommodation of Wicca and the discrimination Wiccans face in State and federal prisons, but I would like the commission to recognize that one can easily insert the name of any other minority faith in place of Wicca, and still have the exact same end result. That is, these problems are endemic for all minority faiths that are not in the family of religions of Abraham.

I’d like to start with a few true examples of discrimination to illustrate the severity of the problem:

A Wiccan inmate has cancer and the prison guards refuse to transport him to his chemotherapy treatments unless he removes his religious pentacle medallion which they have objections to. He chooses to forgo his chemotherapy and keep his pentacle.

A Wiccan inmate has been trying to go to Wiccan services for months, but the guard at her dorm refuses to give her a pass. The guard says it is for the good of the Wiccan inmate's soul.

Another dying Wiccan writes his volunteer chaplain that he needs to see him before he crosses over. The chaplain makes numerous attempts to reach prison staff to receive the necessary clearances, but no one responds. But worse, prison mailroom staff refuse to forward the chaplain's mail, so that the inmate knows why his chaplain isn't coming.

Over more than a decade, I’ve had the opportunity to interact nationally with both administrators and inmates on religious accommodation issues. While practices differ from state to state, I found discrimination against minority faiths everywhere. The reason for this is what I call the Dominant Religion Lens Factor.

The Dominant Religion Lens Factor is a process whereby administrators and security staff view all faith practices from the perspective of the Dominant faiths only, leaving no consideration that there are different ways to practice religion. The Dominant Religion Lens Factor is exacerbated by the fact that almost all of the administrators, who oversee religion programs in prisons, are members, and often clergy, of the very same Dominant faiths from which they take their cues, and even worse, many of them believe that their particular faith should dominate the landscape. Consequently, these people make determinations of what faith practices are or are not acceptable, based on the premise that if it looks like the Dominant faith’s practices, then the practices are probably okay and should be accommodated, but if the practices do not look like the dominant faith’s practices, then both the practices and the faith itself are suspect, and accommodation should be restricted. This particular way of viewing religion, replicates the very same kind of oppressive view that our forefathers and foremothers left Europe to escape, and if there is to be any hope of achieving equal religious rights for prisoners, then this whole way of viewing religion by those in charge, needs to be changed.

Here’s how this works:

I arrived one morning at a prison to conduct Wiccan religious services. I put the inmates to work moving the chairs in the chapel into a circle, which is the typical configuration utilized for Wiccan religious services. Almost immediately security stopped us, saying that we could not conduct our services sitting in a circle, citing security. They instructed me that as the chaplain, I had to stand up front at the pulpit and that the inmates had to sit in the pews and that I had to conduct "sermons" from there. I tried to explain that Wiccan clergy do not give sermons and that creating a circle is the Wiccan way of creating “Sacred Space”, but they would have none of it. They forced me to conduct my services from the pulpit, completely negating all of the necessary steps to actually conduct a legitimate Wiccan religious service.

What was particularly odd about this scenario is the fact that staff and chaplains, regularly stand, sit, and closely interact, with inmates all of the time, and that’s not seen to be a security issue, but conducting religious services in what to them appeared to be a non-traditional way, seemed in their mind to pose a problem. Eventually I was able hold appropriate services, but to this day, staff still make comments about the inappropriateness of this type of a service, and for that reason, among others, ridicule Wicca as not being a real religion.

So, let’s take a look at where the Dominant Religion Lens Factor ultimately leads:

I had a Wiccan inmate whose wife died. He was called in by a staff chaplain and given the news. In the course of the conversation, the inmate was told that perhaps his had wife died because of his participation in the Wiccan services, and that if he repented and started attending "real" religious services, there was a chance he could still be saved.

These kinds of interactions are common for minority faiths in prison. And while administrators may not be aware that they are operating in this prejudicial way, the end result for Wiccans is still the same - discrimination.

And then there’s the worst case scenario, which actually occurs often, where certain prison administrators, staff, and chaplains fully believe that they have a mission to discourage minority faiths from practicing at all. In this context, the Dominant Religion Lens Factor empowers them and encourages them to act on their biases, which ultimately leads to the kind of behavior in the case cited.

Another problem I’ve observed is the great difficulty that Wiccans face when trying to gain access to their sacred religious items. In this instance, the number one reason cited for denying them is security, when in fact there isn’t a security issue at all.

Wiccans typically use an altar adorned with various religious items. These items are usually composed of a chalice, a few candles, incense, and typically a few natural objects like, a feather, a small crystal, or a flower. A small statue or depiction of deity might also be included, and sometimes a Wiccan religious book. These items are highly sacred to Wiccans and play a critical role in their ability to conduct their religious services. Even so, Wiccans are regularly denied these items nationwide.

Now, here’s the kicker:

In every case I’ve investigated, every single institution that denied these sacred items to Wiccans, allowed the very same items to be used in services conducted by the dominant faiths. For example Catholics use a chalice during communion, and Muslims and the Catholics use incense. Protestants & Catholics use candles, and both also have sacred art present. Depictions of Jesus and Mary in prison chapels are commonplace, as are other symbols of Christian faith and deity. I’ve also attended many services where flowers are present, and all of these faiths use a holy book. So why is it that these dominant faiths get all of this without a problem, and yet Wiccans and other minority faiths don’t? It’s because the administrators and security staff see the dominant faith’s use of these items as normal, and the minority faith’s use of these exact same items as weird or dangerous, because the services in which minority faiths utilize these items look different to them than those that they are used to.

Another area in which the Dominant Religion Lens Factor plays out involves accommodations that involve significant resources. A good example is the allocation of regularly employed chaplains.

This is a problem throughout the country. California is an example. Even though there are more Wiccans attending religious services at the institutions in question than there are of some of the dominant faith groups who already have regularly employed chaplains, the State has told the Wiccans that they have to prove that their religious tenets require a chaplain before the institution will consider hiring one. So, far the inmates haven’t been able to prove that, although they’ve been trying for nearly five years. But the odd thing about this proof requirement is that the Protestant inmates, who do have regularly employed chaplains, were never required to prove their need for a chaplain at all. And even more telling is the fact that Protestant religious tenets specifically state that clergy is not necessary to practice the Protestant faith, and in fact, the whole Protestant reformation was based on that principle. So, to clarify this situation, if the same standards that are being required of the Wiccans were to be applied to the Protestants, then all the Protestant chaplains would have to be fired.

This is the same issue for other resource allocations, such as space, budget, books, special religious programming and the like. Protestant congregations in most prisons have bible classes, revivals, videos, and choirs; and I even recently attended an event where Bikers for Christ, brought in a dozen full dressed Harleys for the inmates at a several institutions to interact with. All of these accommodations are provided to the Protestants even though none of these things are required by their tenets. Yet the Wiccans are permitted only those things that they can prove are required by their faith tenets. This sets up a very unfair situation, where resource allocation is not accomplished by an equitable formula.

In addition, those who review inmate grievances, including even some courts, also tend to look at the issues through the Dominant Religion Lens, as well, making it difficult for even the most egregious of these problems to be addressed.

The issues I’ve discussed involve clear and obvious violations of the Constitution of the United States, RLUIPA, and RFRA, as they directly violate the civil rights of the Wiccans involved, yet no one questions them. Why is that? Could it be that our government has established religious favorites?

Here are my recommendations to this commission:

If we want to achieve religious equality in prisons, then we have to restrict the hiring of administrators, staff, and chaplains into gatekeeper positions for our nations’ correctional religious programs. Only individuals who do not see it as their duty to promote certain religious practices over others should be hired in such positions. This should be a Bona Fide Occupational Qualification. We must also educate those who do act as gatekeepers, about pluralism and the guiding principles of religious accommodation in general, so that all inmates will be permitted a reasonable and equitable opportunity to practice their faiths. And we need to establish a separate grievance process for religious issues, which gives inmates a direct line to action in these areas and protection from retaliation. This new grievance process should include experts in non-traditional faiths, so that the Dominant Religion Lens Process is avoided. And lastly, we also need to get rid of administrators and chaplains who believe that breaking the law by violating inmates’ religious rights is justified by faith.

Thank you.

Rev. Patrick McCollum

Hi All...
My goodness I take a break to be sick and the flotsom comes out of the woodwork.

On the question if all Pagans are white...no. The HP to my group is a black man...he was my student and went up through the degrees...he also practices Ifa, a traditional belief of his African ancestors.It really is wonderful as it fits right in with Wicca. We do look like a box of crayolas...everyone has a connection to Paganism...after all we all have a Pagan ancestor somewhere in the deep past.

As far as Selena Fox...there is nothing about her that would make any Pagan blush...what ever that is supposed to mean. Selena Fox is a psychotherapist, teacher, writer, photographer, ritual performance artist, and priestess.

Selena received her M.S. in Counseling from the University of Wisconsin in Madison. She graduated cum laude with a B.S. in psychology from the College of William and Mary in Virginia in 1971. She received additional training in psychology at Rutgers University, Parkway Hospital, and various conferences and training programs. She is a member of the American Psychological Association, American Counseling Association, Association for Transpersonal Psychology, and American Academy of Religion. She is a spiritual counselor in private practice. She also is a staff psychotherapist at Wellspring, a mental health outpatient clinic in Madison, Wisconsin.

She is one of America's best known Pagan elders, networkers, and civil liberties activists. She is founder of Circle Network, Lady Liberty League, and the Pagan Academic Network. Over the years, Selena and her work have been covered by various regional, national, and global media, including Time Magazine, Wall Street Journal, CNN's Larry King Live, NBC's Today Show, and various radio networks (NPR, BBC, ABC, CBC). She has spoken at a variety of international and multicultural conferences.

Some may not like all she does, but we certainly do not blush about her or are ashamed of her at all.

No, we are very proud of Selena. She is the leader of a group that can claim 54000 members. She was one of the ones instrumental in winning a 10 year battle with the VA. Butterfly already talked about The Quest.

Now...Patrick McCollum...I met at PSG, the Pagan Spirit Gathering held by Circle Santuary, Selena Fox's group. In fact I and my HP are elders to his group. I talked to Patrick when he was writing his presentation to the Civil Rights Commission...he was nervous...lol. I talked to him a few days ago and he said that there would be more appearances in Washington. He is busy fighting more legal battles for others.He is also a goldsmith who has made a name for himself with his craftsmanship and creativety.

Starhawk is right, he does look like a Baptist pastor or a member of the military.

About Pagans in prison...I know for a fact that many prisoners will start going to church for the perks. They have an easier time. Many also turn to Islam to have someone watch their backs and keep them safe.

While people who become Wiccan or any other Pagan faith will have a harder time. They lose rights...but they find that it gives them something they find worth the hassle.They get beat up, the guards look the other way, they do not have the chaplains that others have...

You can see Patrick at-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lHYgtxLQlw

terra

Starhawk, as always your writings are wonderful. This is definitely something we need to spread the word about. Regardless as to which religion it is equality should be automatic. Of course we know that is not how things work. I cannot imagine how they would react here if anyone even mentioned Pagan clergy be allowed in the prisons. Hopefully this will change soon thanks to Patrick McCollum and others like him. I often wish I could be more involved with these efforts. For now I will do what I can from here. Blessed Be.

*Waves to Paganplace, Lepicopteryx and Arminius* Merry Meet

No all Pagans are not white, but like any other religion the majority of the population in an area will determine the membership of a group. There is the question of how well the word got around about the event in question. If people don’t hear about it they can’t attend. Then there is the question of how many are afraid to attend for fear of being seen by someone who will in turn tell their boss or co-workers … what a lot of these people forget is that if a co-worker is at said gathering the last thing they are going to do is out another attendee as that would require an explanation on why they, themselves were there.

We Pagans may not follow the Christian beliefs but this in no way means we are “void of God”. We have many Gods, and Goddesses as well, which we honor. Just because you don’t agree with our path or understand it doesn’t mean you should belittle us or disrespect our religion. As a message board outside a little church near here says “To belittle is to be little”. Disagreement with others should not translate into disrespect of others.

In our religion the Mother is the Creator. She also nurtures and sustains us on a daily basis along with the Father. Between them there is balance; unlike other religions we view this balance as something to be aspired to, for how can one create without the other.

Sorry to burst your bubble here but the reality is that walking a Pagan path is much more demanding the walking a Christian one. Pagans are required to dig within themselves, to know themselves. My personal experience has been that in getting to know myself I have forged a deeper relationship with the Lord and Lady. I am one with the Gods and they are one with me, there is no separation. This makes me think about all I say and do, to consider the impact my actions will have on those around me. I alone am responsible for my actions and the effects they have. Christianity requires you to follow blindly the teachings of the “church” and if you “sin” all will be forgiven if you “take it to God”. In essence this teaches that we are not responsible for anything that we do, just say your sorry and all the harm you have done goes away. Somehow I don’t see this as a good thing.

I don’t understand why you have a problem with our greetings or our names for that matter. Why do you feel it’s artificial to wish someone blessings or to tell them you are happy to see them? In times past phrases such, as these were ways to identify us to others of like mind. Of course they were only used when the need was great as being Pagan could get you killed.

Your name was also a means of protection. During the inquisition if someone was arrested and questioned they could give the names of those they gathered with and the authorities would have no way of tracking them. In many circles this practice is still used in order to keep a slip of the tongue from accidentally outing someone who, for various reasons, can’t be open or “out of the broom closet” as it were.

In this day and age I can understand how many people miss the fact that we are connected to the Earth. In a time when 99% of us get our food and other essentials from a store the “connection” is harder to realize. Still with out the land to grow the crops or farms that raise the animals none of us will survive. Thus it is that Pagans recognize the Earth as our Mother, nurturing and caring for us even as we neglect and abuse her shamefully. So consider that while you see a human life as “worth more than this lump of rock” with out it there will be no life what so ever. But then with statements like “the Earth will be destroyed in fire” it sounds like you aren’t worried about survival, and you wonder why we say Christianity uses fear as a weapon? It’s been my experience that anyone who uses fear to control is abusive not loving.

JND:

Well, I apparently owe you some small thanks for giving me about five minutes of wonderful laughter.

No, I am not a follower of Jacobus Arminius, although I certainly tend toward universalism and liberalism. I am Episcopalian, and very progressive about it. I am rooted in the message of Jesus in the Gospels. I am not obsessed with sin; I know I sin, and pray for forgiveness. Then I continue to try to live my life according to the Two Great Commandments. And to me, 'Love your neighbor' means every damned person on the planet. Including Pagans. And I try to make these people my friends, and many are. I do not reject them, as you do.

For a little history lesson: Arminius was the leader of the Germanic tribes that inflicted a decisive defeat on Rome in 9 CE, wiping out three legions, and ending Roman attempts to conquer Germania.

Arminius

ANON:

Sick because we accept BGLT people as they are, and don't try to convince them that they're "abominations" that must be "cleansed" before they will be acceptable to the Divine from which they originated in the first place?

Or sick because those who are BGLT aren't ashamed of it?

Either way, what you seem to think is sick sounds pretty healthy to me.

Btw, in case anyone was wondering where JJ and/or his prophet got their 'unique perspective' on life?

Prison.

I submit that anyone who'd rather read a comic book written by a madman and call us 'Satanic' than look us in the eye as humans ought to think twice about applying that notion to the penal system.

Circling on back to oh, I dunno, the topic, though, this has something to do with the prison situation: Race issues. They get awfully non-abstract on the inside, ....Gods know our Heathen friends have trouble with getting in there to tell the Aryan Nation types that being a Nazi wannabe ain't exactly how to make the Aesir smile on yer hamminja, or however you spell that. Forget about the Vanir.. which Heathen clergy'd teach you you shouldn't-oughtta do, if you know what's good for ya. :))

(For the monocultural audience, Norse Pagans, ('Heathens') have a somewhat different ethical theology from yer insular-classical-American 'wickypooes' like myself. ;) ...they get to deal with certain racist gang stuff that is somewhat of a different matter from someone getting hold of Scott Cunningham or having other God-and-Goddessey epiphanies.)

(Note to self: Why do I even bother explaining things to people who Don't Want To Get It? Oh. Breakfast of Champions. (literary reference, for those who read. Vonnegut.) )

For you Christians-afraid-of-our-nefarious-influence, though. The way I see it is, you can let some Pagan clergy in to talk to some people, or you could see what the race-on-race-in-enclosed-spaces cauldron cooks up on its own.

"Are all Pagans white?"

Fair question. But, nope. Frankly, in Pagan reckoning, there isn't much thought to being 'white' people or 'black' people or any other color people. We'll talk about ancestral tribes and origins like the whole other nations they were... all brought together such as we may, here. At least in America. We're very American that way in America. :)

Still:

The fact is that people looking for their ancestral spiritual heritage... and who are not European, will first look to their own traditions and in fact neighborhoods, and those are generally thriving... People of non-European ancestry tend to have all manner of traditions, less-recently-smashed to go to: if someone's Native American or black or Korean or from any number of other places, there's just so many other perfectly-valid paths they can seek along, often with elders who'll hook them right up.

Paganism is not a competition. We don't 'outreach' so much cause we don't even think that way. We're not actually recruiting, contrary to some paranoid fears about us. We get a *lot* of people looking for some ancestral heritage that doesn't involve being total bare-behinded blue-painted animals (or Nero) before some Christian came along and had everyone bend knee.

Lots.

But those same traditions mean in our modern world that *no* one gets turned away based on ethnicity.
Not around me or any trad *I* know, let me tell you.

Sure, we have a big European demographic. We're about our ancestral Gods and traditions.

But if you think we're 'all white' I could introduce you to four or five priests and priestesses that taught *me* a thing or three.

Starhawk, our columnist, is of Jewish extraction, (does that count as 'white' these days?) Gods know we have all manner of good friends who live other traditions and work together, even if we have different ways as Westerners reckon 'belief.'

We *believe in diversity itself,* not as a thing to "tolerate," but to *love.*

Engage. Embrace. With all strength and honor, openness and courage.

Wherever our genes come from, we circle up, and it works.

No, we're not all white. By no means.

But a lot of people with no other home to go to than what we make together are wearing this kind of complexion right now.

That's all it is.

*wavies to Lepi, btw. * Coming out of the woodwork, tonight, ain't they? They must have been off stumping for the Huckster till last night and are looking for 'enemies' to 'love.' :) *laugh.*

They even got JJ screaming homophobia at a non-Pagan guy who isn't even *here.* (Pssst, JJ, screaming about the anal sex you imagine someone who isn't here is having doesn't exactly scream 'I'm secure in my presumptive heterosexuality' in either queer or Pagan or mainstream American circles. And, no, we aren't seventy percent gay. I'm not keeping count, but I think I'm the only one of the frequent Pagan posters who's even bisexual. We're not 70 percent gay, we're just about 98 percent gay-friendly and about 100 percent unafraid to admit it if we are. Still doesn't add up to those kinds of numbers. Which you pulled out of.. a dark place, in more than one sense of the phrase. :) )

Anyway, paranoid monotheist type people, trust me, Pagans are not secretly doing all kinds of dark inverted-Christian 'magic.'

You can tell those who do stuff like that... from their not-shutting-up about doing dark inverted-Christian 'magic.' Well, except for the metalheads. They're pretty much just having ou on.

But anyone who comes talking about being a 'witch' who binds demons just like the dark fantasies of would-be-witch-hunters taught them, send em around to your local Wiccan priestess. We'll set em right.

Better yet, stop teaching your kids and yourselves that's what Wicca *is.*

Could that be a factor in the success of the ex-prisoners? All the gatherings I've ever been to have been overwhelmingly caucasian.

Are all Pagans white?

Oh, but, as for Pagans having the highest rate of successful reintegration into society, ...that goes back to the thing about not being out to convert the world or figure people can only be governed by fear of punishment and a belief they'll be 'caught.'

Paganism's like an 'all-volunteer army' that way, only without being even metaphorically-military, unlike some dogmas.

People who seek the Old Gods and natural ways are generally highly-motivated and *looking* for changes.

It's not the easy way to go, contrary to what some within Christianity claim is within the Pagan hearts and minds.

Those that choose it, especially under the kinds of conditions and constraints one finds in prison, do deserve support.

ANON:

**we have the highest rate of people coming out of prison successfully,
perhaps because we teach people to take responsibility for themselves and for the earth.”

Sounds like $cientologist 'Top-Gun' Tom Cruise, while under interview (promoting such) by sayin, "If a Car is in an Accident [only] $cientoilogists will Help..." [Similar Said].**

Nobody said that Paganism was The Way - what Starhawk said was that it was ONE way, and one that had a higher success rate than the others for that particular situation. You will never hear a Pagan say that Paganism is The One and Only Real True Path - it's one of many, and it's one that works for a lot of people.
It also happens to be a way whose followers are being denied their right to pracitce behind bars, while others are given carte blanche by comparison.

And you're more likely to find us giving first aid than chasing ambulances.

As we saw with Roberta Patrick's suit against the Pentagon, as more and more Pagans come out of the broom closet, we CAN demand that which is rightfully ours and get it - and we MUST continue to do so.

ANON:

**we have the highest rate of people coming out of prison successfully,
perhaps because we teach people to take responsibility for themselves and for the earth.”

Sounds like $cientologist 'Top-Gun' Tom Cruise, while under interview (promoting such) by sayin, "If a Car is in an Accident [only] $cientoilogists will Help..." [Similar Said].**

Nobody said that Paganism was The Way - what Starhawk said was that it was ONE way, and one that had a higher success rate than the others for that particular situation. You will never hear a Pagan say that Paganism is The One and Only Real True Path - it's one of many, and it's one that works for a lot of people.
It also happens to be a way whose followers are being denied their right to pracitce behind bars, while others are given carte blanche by comparison.

And you're more likely to find us giving first aid than chasing ambulances.

As we saw with Roberta Patrick's suit against the Pentagon, as more and more Pagans come out of the broom closet, we CAN demand that which is rightfully ours and get it - and we MUST continue to do so.

'Sounds like' does not define. Witness your spelling of 'nurve.' "Sounds like" 'nerve,' ...is not. :)

How is him believing 'only Scientologists help people in car crashes' any different from Christians shouting the same thing at Pagans and others, mostly in order to prove a Pagan didn't actually do what she did, or to say, for instance, that lies and definitions are really 'love' and Godly?

we have the highest rate of people coming out of prison successfully,
perhaps because we teach people to take responsibility for themselves and for the earth.”

Sounds like $cientologist 'Top-Gun' Tom Cruise, while under interview (promoting such) by sayin, "If a Car is in an Accident [only] $cientoilogists will Help..." [Similar Said].

STARHAWK HAS a lot of Nurve!

Shame Shame!

JND quoth:

""PAGANPLACE:
"So you quote a man who thinks there's *actual demons* in Beatles records and Tolkien books? Ha. :)"

"I thought someone might make some snide comment along these lines. The difference is - you pagans must live in bondage and fear of them (making 'ceremonial magick' containment circles as Crowley did). "

Umm, no. Ceremonial Magick is something very different. Crowley wasn't Pagan, he was... doing his whatever-you-call-that-thing.

We don't believe in devils, never mind be bound to them.

As we bind, so are we bound. Why would we want to be bound to those creatures of *your* imagination?

Seems to me the one who's bound is you who hides behind a Bible and imagines we must have the same motivations and uses for Circle.

Basic stuff, there.

Anyway, if you agree with JJ, no wonder. He makes his 'facts' up as he goes, too.

Gods, but aren't the (you know the types) out in force, tonight, complete with delusions we never heard this before and they'll be the ones to bring Jeebus.

Anyway.

Looks like we got a lot of seekers locked up in cells just lately, (last week America reached the point of having more of her people in jail than China or Communist Russia, ...twenty thousand isn't really *that big a number, * but it's still an awful lot of people.

That gets us down to practical questions of what we can do for 'em. Gods know what kind of ideas about Pagan religion are gaining currency in there.

Mostly you hear about someone figuring, 'I've got to have an athame,' and want to go, 'Dude, you're in *prison.*' Or you hear other things reported as trivializations and the like.

It doesn't help that a lot of places won't let Pagan clergy in to teach better, or actually care for people.

I've dealt with plenty of rougher characters and people in tough circumstances in my times, but I'm not representing any accredited groups, (been moving around too much for *years* for that,) even if they did. ...apart from that I'm supposed to be avoiding stress, I really feel like I could do *something* useful in this regard.

(And, no, Jack Chick comic-reading true-believers, that's not by way of seeking converts, 'we' just don't operate that way. I've probably brought more people who came to me in spiritual crisis to the UU or other churches than otherwise...we have no agenda to 'go forth and convert the world,' cause we don't believe a) That that helps, or b) that 'signing people up' for something they had to be 'converted to' would do anything. Nothing good, anyway. :) )

So, friends, if the noise dies down here, what shall we do with this demographic information? :)

JND:

**Why, why do believe this? What evidence do you have of this?**

Gee, I don't know - perhaps it has something to do with the fact that all DNA is made up of different combinations of the same four nitrogenous bases. What basis do you have for the Biblical creation story?

**The Earth is just a lump of rock that will one day be cold and dead. Even you would have to admit this, right?**

One day I will be dead. When I die, my body will become food for scavengers, insects, and bacteris, will decompose and become part of the soil from which plants will draw life; those plants will feed animals which will in turn feed other animals, including people - and so life goes on and death is a part of it. I do not fear death - it is merely another spoke on the wheel.

**The life of any human being is worth infinitely more than this lump of rock together with all its flora and fauna.**

You've obviously never pulled off the road and crossed a major highway on foot to rescue an injured animal that someone else struck with their car and left. I have placed myself in danger on more than one occasion attempting to save the life of an animal, and have never regretted it, even if the animal died despite my efforts to help it.

**Read 2 Peter 3 - someday the Earth will be destroyed in fire and replaced by a new heavens and new earth.
Read Romans 1 - this is worshiping the creature rather than the Creator.**

Your faith posits the Creator as separate from the Creation - mine posits them as inextricably intertwined.
I'm pretty sure that you and I don't define "worship" the same way. For you, if you're like the Christian churches I recall from my childhood, worship means considering yourself unworthy of God's love and begging him for it anyway. God is separate from you because he is pure and you are nasty and he can't be polluted by you.
For me, because the Divine is part of me and I of Them, LIFE is worship - worship happens when I fall asleep with my husband snoring in my ear, when I wake to the smell of the coffee he has placed on my nightstand, when my daighter kisses me, when the dog rolls over to have his belly scratched, when I'm putting in this year's tomato crop. I don't have to ask for anything - it's all right here.

**And do you have any idea how your mother probably feels? I hope you've at least listened to her. For your mother's sake, have you listened to the best Christian apologetics has to offer? John Piper, R.C. Sproul, William Lane Craig, etc.?**

I would hope that my mother could be happy for me that I have found a path that makes me happy, but she isn't. She's convinced that I'm going to Hell - that's her issue to deal with, not mine. Should I continue going through the motions in a church whose beliefs I don't share just to make her happy? Should I lie to her and tell her that I believe waht she believes just to please her?

From the time she was small, I exposed my daughter to as many different spiritual paths as possible, and encouraged her to explore until she found what worked for her. She is now 17, and considers herself an agnostic with a Buddhist twist. Am I disppointed that she did not choose to follow my path? Not at all. I would be disppointed if she faked something so important just to please me.

PAGANPLACE:
"So you quote a man who thinks there's *actual demons* in Beatles records and Tolkien books? Ha. :)"

I thought someone might make some snide comment along these lines. The difference is - you pagans must live in bondage and fear of them (making 'ceremonial magick' containment circles as Crowley did). To Chick, the only danger these clowns pose is to convince you to rebel against Christ. Your sin, your rebellion are what is uppermost. Chick isn't superstitious since to him demons are just another temptation to evil, as are the things of this world. God is in control, and the demons are ultimately just another type of poor, stupid, rebellious soul who rejected the Lord's glory.

"this is worshiping the creature rather than the Creator."

I think what you don't understand here, JND, is that we do not draw that artificial distinction...

Nor, do we believe a thing must be 'eternal' to be sacred or valuable... In fact, we see the world as part of a cycle of deaths and rebirths and transformations, just as we ourselves and the creatures around us are.

By the way, quoting the Bible at us is not authoritative. It's not our book, and, frankly, you battering at real people for *not* matching up with what that book says we are is a big part of your *problem* here.

You can say we 'worship the creation rather than the Creator' all you want, ...It doesn't *mean* anything. Earth isn't an artifact. She's an embodiment of the Goddess, real and present.

Certainly there's more to the Mother, but this isn't about 'either-or.'

So, this 'incarnation' of the world will be over in five or ten billion years, why rush it cause you don't believe the world can possibly be bigger than your human personality of right now?

And you've done quite enough to my mother, thanks.

Madame Lepidopteryx:
"What I do believe is that the Earth is a living being, that we, along with all other beings from slime molds to blue whales, from algae to giant sequoias, are all a aprt of her,"

Why, why do believe this? What evidence do you have of this? The Earth is just a lump of rock that will one day be cold and dead. Even you would have to admit this, right? The life of any human being is worth infinitely more than this lump of rock together with all its flora and fauna. Read 2 Peter 3 - someday the Earth will be destroyed in fire and replaced by a new heavens and new earth.
Read Romans 1 - this is worshiping the creature rather than the Creator.

And do you have any idea how your mother probably feels? I hope you've at least listened to her. For your mother's sake, have you listened to the best Christian apologetics has to offer? John Piper, R.C. Sproul, William Lane Craig, etc.?

Oh, Bright Lady.... JJ has a Jack-Chick-quoting 'friend.'

Jack Chick thinks *Catholicism* is a Satanic conspiracy of evil, too, dude. He believes (and claims) that Wiccans sacrifice more babies every year than are actually *born* in the U.S. The cheese slipped off his cracker long before he printed his first hate-speech comic book.

"With superstition you are in bondage to fear of myriads of malevolent spirits, or of strange systems such as planetary alignment, black cats, etc. that can harm you if you don't "work" them correctly"

So you quote a man who thinks there's *actual demons* in Beatles records and Tolkien books? Ha. :)

Whatever vapors the man's got floating in his tormented little brainpan, it'd be a lot funnier if people didn't pay him so much to say these things.

Frankly, JHD, it takes a lot of nerve to try and determine in the abstract that the people you're talking to must 'really' be evil and depraved because we don't have an authoritarian worldview which Mr. Chick *clearly* shows is no guarantee against harming real people.

Particularly in that 'false witness against your neighbor' regard.

Our ethics are based in awareness, accountability, and good will for our actions,not on "If I can make this book say it's OK, it's OK, and if I can say this book makes someone a 'sinner' I can hurt them and say it's 'love,'' yes.

Don't mistake that for any idea we think we're the biggest critters in the universe. Or that devotion to our Gods is just some 'seeking power' cause a comic book says so. Everyone *has* power, already.. and with this we all must deal. The Gods don't 'judge' people based on how much they believed a book, or a comic book, for that matter.

They're, in part, our guides and teachers, *...part* of the world, not external to it with a couple old downloads to Moses left behind for people to bash each other over interpretations thereof in the name of 'eternity.'

JJ,

When I first rad your posts, you spoke of universality of love and light, of finding the common notes in each of our songs - or at least that's what I thought you were speaking of - your fractured syntax sometimes makes your meaning unclear. THAT was what I liked about you - and that's what I see in my friend Gaby. I don't see it in you anymore - and that's a shame.

I did reply to your comments on Harry Potter - I asked you to show me a peer-reviewed study that concluded that Harry Potter was psycholically harmful to children and YOU, my boy, were silent.

Harry Potter (despite what the cheesy Chick tracts say to the contrary) is not harmful to children - it is a fantasy, nothing more. If you're afraid that reading Harry Potter is going to teach your child witchcraft, you can put your fears to rest. I promise you that you can point a willow twig at a feather and shout "Wingardium leviosa!" until your arm falls off and your voice fails, and it isn't going to move. You can shout "Avada kedavara" in someone's face all day long, and they will not drop dead. Harry Potter is as much a fantasy as any other fairy tale - and the witchcraft in it just as made-up. Real witchcraft doesn't work anything like what you find in a Harry Potter book - or a Chick tract. In fact, wht the Harry Potter books DO teach kids is that magic doesn't make your problems go away - you have to think them through and work them out yourself. Time after time, what saves the day is not the spells, but the loyalty, and self-sacrificing love between Harry and his friends. At the end of the last book, Harry faces Voldemort intending to allow himself to be killed because he believes it's the only way to save the world from evil - "Greater love hath no man than that he would lay down his life for his brother."

Posted on March 5, 2008 19:47

JND:
**With superstition you are in bondage to fear of myriads of malevolent spirits, or of strange systems such as planetary alignment, black cats, etc. that can harm you if you don't "work" them correctly.**

In that case, you really cannot call my religion superstition. You see, I don't try to "work" planetary alignments - I have no control over them. I don't believe in evil spirits which must be appeased, and I don't believe that certain items or actions will change my "luck" for good or ill. It seems to me that the idea of "worship me or I'll burn you in hell" is very much based in fear.
What I do believe is that the Earth is a living being, that we, along with all other beings from slime molds to blue whales, from algae to giant sequoias, are all a aprt of her, and therefore of each other, and therefore, when we do good for others, we aid ourselves, and when we do ill to tohers, we harm ourselves.
Christians have a similar concept "As you would have others do unto you, do you also unto them."

**With God you deal with a holy, righteous, personal Being. The only thing to fear are the consequences of your sin, but he is a more powerful Saviour than you are a sinner.**

And even Christians can't all agree on what is and isn't sin. A small example - my Baptist mom believes that drinking any alcohol is a sin. My Catholic friends use wine in their church services.
If I wrong another, I seek to make amends with the one I have wronged, not ask a third party to forgive me.

**Christianity will free you from the bondage of your superstitions.**

See my comment above on superstition.

**It will wash away the guilt of your sins which you KNOW you committed.**

See my comment above on the source of forgiveness.

**the whole idea behind paganism is that you will not be held morally accountable for your sins by a higher authority (there is the "3 fold rule", but this just reduces morality to self interest. The "rule" is inanimate.).**

I don't know what misguided soul told you that we Pagans believe we aren't held morally accountable. You could say that the Rule of Three boils down to enlightened self-interest. You could say the same about getting "saved" in order to avoid eternal damnation.

**Paganism is born out of a desire to have power, which corrupts. See:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5012/5012_01.asp
and
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp**

Honey, I've had enough Chick tracts shoved under my nose to wallpaper my house, and I've actually read someof them - they're ridiculous. What makes you think that I would go to a Chick tract for reliable information about Paganism? That would be like going to my plumber for reliable information about gardening.

You're using Jack Chick tracts as "proof" of what Pagans believe? LOL! That's a good one. What's next, are you going to go after the Catholics for being idol-worshippers?

If you want to get your head out of your butt and learn what Pagans believe, go to http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=ustx&c=basics&id=11793
and read the article "So, Your Friend Is a Witch". You might just learn a thing or two.

And all these artificial affectations and mannerisms you adopt ("blessed be", "merry meet", names like eagleriverwindhawkrainoaktree). Don't tell me you actually believe this? Time to stop pretending.

ARMINIUS:
"I don't know what cave you crawled out of, but it was not a cave inhabited by true Christians. No follower of Jesus would say the hateful things you posted here.

I am proudly Christian. And there are Pagans here that I am proud to call friends. They are hugely decent, caring, compassionate people. I see nothing in you post that echoes the compassion that Christ taught."

Part of your problem is that you are (I assume) an Arminian. You have a low *unbiblical* view of sin and a high view of human righteousness. If you buy into the notion anyone can be righteous apart from Christ (which you seem to do by appeal to your friends) maybe you should change your screen name
to *PELAGIAN*.

Arminianism always tends towards universalism and theological liberalism in the end. Perhaps Christ isn't very important to you since you do not believe you've committed any sins you need to be saved from or forgiven for?

Lepidoptera:
"Any belief for which one can offer no concrete proof can be called superstiton"
Not true. With superstition you are in bondage to fear of myriads of malevolent spirits, or of strange systems such as planetary alignment, black cats, etc. that can harm you if you don't "work" them correctly. With God you deal with a holy, righteous, personal Being. The only thing to fear are the consequences of your sin, but he is a more powerful Saviour than you are a sinner. Christianity will free you from the bondage of your superstitions. It will wash away the guilt of your sins which you KNOW you committed.

"Don't paint us Pagans with a brush you wouldn't want used on you."

Naturally there are exceptions in both camps, but the tendency, the whole idea behind paganism is that you will not be held morally accountable for your sins by a higher authority (there is the "3 fold rule", but this just reduces morality to self interest. The "rule" is inanimate.).

Paganism is born out of a desire to have power, which corrupts. See:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5012/5012_01.asp
and
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

Yeah, JJ... you're the expert on fake religions created by people in prison just so they could get special treatment. Isn't that what Eclat is? It's one big scam. And your ravings aren't exactly the best advertisement for Eclat, either.

Do us all a favor and call the Mothership to have you beamed back aboard. Because you're p*ssing off all of us here on Planet Earth.

JJ:

**You was wrong to say that HARRY POTTER BOOKS was 'Harmless to & for Kids" now it was proven by Psychiatry to be bad & illusional etc..!**

Show me a peer-reviewed study.

**do they get bury's with a rock tied to their sides to keep them from rolling over in their graves????**

WTF are you talking about?

**Note: Accoieding to the 1,000,000 U.S. Soldiers, that Pagans hide behind Wiccans & Wiccans hide behind Pagans. Yet there are [Both Pagan & Wiccan] less than 2,000! ?????? This begs the Question: Are they mostly locked-up?**

Why should it come as a surprise that members of a faith that is a minority in the general population would also be a minority within a subgroup of that population such as the military? If your logic was any more twisted, you could open a bottle of wine with it.

**Note: Even SALiNA FOX (a Wiccan Expert that makes starhawk blush) will attest that there are less than 15,000 Pagans/Wiccan in ALL United States!**

First of all, the Lady's name is Selena, not Salina. Second, care to link to that quote? Third, what difference does it make if there are 15,000 or 15,000,000 of us? Equal rights are not dependent on membership numbers.

Your first link is an article about a prisoner who simply wished to wear a pendant with the symbol of his faith and was denied. Nothing in it about a money-making scheme.

As for your second article, prison officials would be within their rights to deny him a sword. And if the prison system is using public funds to provide religious articles for some prisoners, they must do so for all. If he has access to private funds to purchase his own materials, or can have them sent to him by someone else, why deny him?

Loney v. Scurr was a dispute over which heir in a family was entitled to receive rent revenues from a lease that had been established by the deceased - the fact that the lease was to a church was incidental.

I couldn't find Remmer v. Brewer.

JND,

I don't know what cave you crawled out of, but it was not a cave inhabited by true Christians. No follower of Jesus would say the hateful things you posted here.

I am proudly Christian. And there are Pagans here that I am proud to call friends. They are hugely decent, caring, compassionate people. I see nothing in you post that echoes the compassion that Christ taught.

Arminius

Arminius,

Merry meet, my friend. Fighting religious discrimination is a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it.

Starhawk,

Thanks from the heart for another beautiful essay. All best wishes to Mr. McCollum in his wonderful work. He is an example to us all. As I, a Christian, must say, he is doing God's work.

Arminius

Merry meet, Gaby!

Jacob,

I have no idea what has gotten into you, but I can tell you, your photons are dimming really, really fast.

You need to apologize and be sincere about it.

No more "warm-heart" more like wicked witch of the west". I can not stand people who constantly malign others and lately that is all you have been doing.

SHAME ON YOU, JJ!

JJ,

It is YOU who should be ashamed of yourself.

**"Patrick estimates that there are twenty to twenty-five thousand Pagan prisoners in the U.S. correctional system.."

WOW! WHAT A BiG-LIE! You remember Last Years Washington Pagan/Wiccan meet. Well only a Dozen People (suckers) showed up! Your Numbers are corrupt, like your lost soul!**

Would you expect incarcerated Pagans to be at the meeting? That would be difficult, now wouldn't it?
And as I recall the news articles and the photgraphs, the numbers were significantly greater than your estimate.

**(You sell Books & look for things to say or Incite in order to say or keep ye alive)**

That's what writers and teachers do, JJ - they write and teach. As I recall, you were working on a book at one time. Were you planning to give away every copy or sell them?

**Note: 75% of These Folks are GAY & Celtic, Nordic, Anglo Saxan.!**

Your point? Yes, we Pgans accept BGLT people just as they are. And if you're implying that American Pagans are some sort of white elite, you've obviously never been to a gathering - we come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and ethnicities - we're a freaking rainbow, baby.

**President BUSH et al said, "Witchcraft is not a Religion.."**

When did the Shrub become a theologian? I didn't realize that he left Yale as both a cheerleader AND a doctor of divinity.

**PS: You did not tell this Blogg WHY HE or THEY are INCARSARATED!??????**

How would she know the police record of every Pagan in prison? And does it matter why they are incarcerated? David Berkowitz had access to a Christian chaplain.

**Please, Ye have zero Scriptures**

And your scriptures are?

**PS: Do you have a'THORS HAMMER" & a DAGGER" etc..?**

I prefer not to try to take Thor's hammer away from him - he gets cranky. And the blade to which you refer is called an athame.

20-25,000 Pagan prisoners in a US population of somewhere between 9-10 million isn't that big at all.

I'm so glad to see Patrick taking these things on and getting people to listen. It's about time. Sadly it's really no surprise that people would discriminate against Pagans in the prison systems just as much as goes on in the outside. Hopefully things are changing.

We need more like him- not just in the Pagan community, either- but we need more folks willing to stand up for the rights of others, even those they don't agree with.

It shouldn't take a federal lawsuit for people to be able to practice their religion, but obviously, there are times when it does - we're waiting to see if that's what it's going to take in Louisiana. Thank the gods there are folks like Mr. McCollum around when such measures are necessary.

Thanks, Starhawk, for highlighting Patrick McCollum's work with Pagan prisoners. I had the priveledge of meeting him at the Pentacle Quest rally, and he's a great guy.