Obama Casting a Good and Needed Spell

Change is needed in America. I believe that Obama will make a change in America for the good. May the Gods and Goddesses of the Universe bless Obama in his run for the White House.
May Peace Come To Mother Earth.

Dear Starhawk,

Res ipsa loquitur:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrp-v2tHaDo

Obama's eloquence suffices onto itself.

Blessed Be,
Robin

Reading it again, I think this is one of the most important points of this speech:

For we have a choice in this country. We can accept a politics that breeds division, and conflict, and cynicism. We can tackle race only as spectacle -- as we did in the O.J. trial -- or in the wake of tragedy, as we did in the aftermath of Katrina -- or as fodder for the nightly news."

"We can play Reverend Wright's sermons on every channel, every day and talk about them from now until the election, and make the only question in this campaign whether or not the American people think that I somehow believe or sympathize with his most offensive words."

"We can pounce on some gaffe by a Hillary supporter as evidence that she's playing the race card, or we can speculate on whether white men will all flock to John McCain in the general election regardless of his policies."

"We can do that."

"But if we do, I can tell you that in the next election, we'll be talking about some other distraction. And then another one. And then another one. And nothing will change."

He's absolutely right- and it's already happening here. People don't want real change because it means having to do work.

People are already playing this out. Those people here who keep saying 'why did he stay' seem to dismiss the fact that he values his change in his spirituality that Mr. Wright brought to him SO much that he felt a kinship with and much gratitude to the person who gave that gift to him.

That says to me that he's more spiritually grounded than the people out here who keep saying 'leave the church and throw out the one person who made that kind of difference in your life.' I can never dismiss the people who have had the biggest influence on my spiritual life that easily, and we disagree often- it's part of the learning process. and he shouldn't have to either. Because a truly great leader is one who challenges us and makes us think. We need him more than he needs us.

America doesn't deserve a politician who is willing to call things as they really are and open a new dialogue. We've had eight years of a man who can barely complete a full sentence without sticking his feet in his mouth. Americans seem to only want old sound bites taken WAY out of context. Americans don't want to have to do the hard work of looking at ourselves and searching to find the truth of what are the circumstances that would lead to someone saying those types of things.

We need this man and more like him in our political life. We need to hear the more painful things because we tend to forget our history when we're in the blogosphere. But they still abound in real life when the computers and tvs and sidekicks are off. It's people like this that can elevate political discussion beyond the ordinary. And in our times we need that more than ever.

If he doesn't get elected, he could be the next Martin Luther King Jr, working to take up a cause that he believes in, whether in or out of the Senate. Changing the dialogue on race is a good place to start. He is light years ahead of us, as I think any genuine leader should be. Anyone that dismisses Wright out of hand based on a few statements misses the point of what these types of pastors have been saying for years, things that still need addressing in this day and age.

I don't know if America deserves Obama. Boy I hope I'm wrong.

I've also had dreams of him in the Oval Office. And I certainly NEVER dream about political figures. I hope it's a good thing.

The last time I had such a response to someone running for office like that was when Bush was running and I looked at him on tv, turned to someone in my college apartment and said 'we'll be at war with someone if this guy gets elected'. I was thinking Iraq because of the other Gulf War but didn't say anything more. And that was before I knew anything about Paganism or intuition or anything. I call it my 'The Dead Zone' moment.

Blessed be.

I was wondering what my fellow Pagans on this board thought of Obama's race speech yesterday?

I thought that it was right on the money. I read a little bit about his church and, aside from the pastor that occasionally goes off on a rant, they seem to be good folks. Although, I commented to my husband that if they were REALLY following an Afro-centric path, why aren't they working with the Orishas? :D

Maybe I'm biased, but in my Third Eye, I see Obama taking the Oath of Office. I don't see that for Hillary or McCain, try as I might.

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I should probably point out in terms of Senator Obama: he's no more a savior than he is some kind of *devil.* Gods willing, he's just someone reasonable people might think, as I do, is the right guy for a very difficult job.

We need to stop thinking as if elections must be about 'good vs evil, I'll have that with extra hyperbole, and winner take all.'

We ask someone to lead us through the next few years, ...that's where certain work *starts,* not ends.

Right?

Hi, Terra. And MM, Deb. :) Thanks for dropping back in. :)

Seem interesting that just as the media's talking about trying to divide the 'women's' vote against the 'black' vote, that someone turns up saying this kind of stuff?

And pardon if it makes me want to be livid: we sure didn't come all this way to start getting our news from Swiftboaters *now.* :)

My dear Lady Rowan.

Blessings and Greetings,
Glad to see you here.

Sometimes other Pagans need a few signposts along the untrod way.

terra

Lady Aradia,

Obama is not Muslim. He is Christian. His father was born in a Muslim country but was not a practiceing Muslim...in fact he had become atheist. Obama's father died in 1982.

Obama went to elementry school in Indonesia...his step father worked for a US oil company and sent Obama to a CATHOLIC school. Barack went to first grade to a secular school in Jacarta.

He was raised in Hawaii...by his non religious granparents and spiritual mother.

Really Aradia, of all people, should you really believe all of what you are told? After all...we worship the devil, sacrifice babies and turn people into knutes.Isn't that what people say of us? After two decades you should know better. There are many who have reason to lie and cause fear about Obama. He wrote two best sellers...Dreams from My Father and
The Audacity of Hope.These books tell his story and his views on things. If you can get them and read...
here is an exerpt:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1546298,00.html

Aradia was sent to teach... to be free and not to allow tyrants to hold us. When you believe lies and the worse of people without knowing the facts...you are allowing that person to have power over you...they are taking your freedom.

I was around when women were fighting for their rights...I am all for women power...and I would die happy to see a woman sitting in the oval office behind the desk. But she has to be the right woman. Not just anyone.

Aradia, who you vote for is certainly your business...but be a wise American, and know all the facts and make sure you are not voteing for someone simply because of her gender, or not voteing for someone because of his color, or supposed religion. Spirit has no color and no gender owns wisdom...not even we women.

Goddess Bless,
Lady K.

Anyway, for the studio audience, *big forced grin* Guess what Pagan clergy get to deal with on rare occasion.

Still not sure what we've been seeing here isn't someone resurrecting a caricature of early-90's feminism in an attempt to be divisive. Gods know Rush Limbaugh still makes money like that's a factor, even with an almost-unbroken track record of being *wrong,* not to mention actually on drugs...

Just so happens to come at the same time as various voter-nullification efforts and reintensified smear campaigns, so....

If you wonder why that got a burr up, we Pagans who know from the name strongly-identify Aradia with ...freedom, liberty, and discernment under adverse circumstances, as well as not being a sucker who lets someone else define your reality for ya. :)

Especially, as I think we've demonstrated amply on these threads, not letting Popes enlist us to smear Moors when they'll only turn around and screw us anyway. :)

Yaknow? 'Obama.' It rhymes with like Immrama.' He's been to Chicago, where there are some Irish people. Clearly he's journeyed to the Blessed Isles in a coracle and is unduly influenced by St. Brendan... Or possibly Niamh. Obviously he'll turn to dust when he steps out the motorcade....

"The Senator from Illinois, obviously unqualified to randomly cheese off Somalians, really a sleeper agent representing nebulous conspiracy theories that didn't exist at the time...who obviously has people who've been clamoring for someone to represent them with everything he's been saying for sixteen years, but are obviously 'deluded by a spell' as opposed to having pushed the poor guy out of his junior Congressman space by *acclaim,* "

Well, we're obviously all 'suckers' with 'Mother issues' for not voting for the female candidate, right?

Under some 'Muslim spell,' clearly..,. even if the facts say otherwise...

Seriously, 'Lady Aradia.' The Christians' reaction to the 'Muslim threat' or *any threat* has always been to try and prove they can be as tyrranical toward women as they can.

Their smears serve us not a bit. We do not use them.

I'm sorry if you went twenty years without hearing that. We're a bit understaffed.

And, pardon if I harp on this:

" Lady Aradia:

I personally think that Obama is a person that was made from birth to be directed towards the main office of the USA to sabotage it from with in.
Just look at his name:

Barack Obama

Sounds like a name made for the Iraqs brother hood, and to bomb America.
Am I the only one who see's this?"

No, you're not the only one who 'sees' this, but, guess in Whose sight 'Sounds like' ain't *good enough?*

*koff.*

I mean, *Holy Mother of Punk,* don't you get it?

I'll also add, since this so-interestingly parallels certain Christians' psychology when presented with facts, 'Lady Aradia,' but you say this:

"Im sorry you think I am breaking all the rules of our faith, but I can see right through him."

How hard do you need to believe *that?*

This is why 'swiftboating' is a tool of oppressors, and why it works.

People get to feel 'smart' even when they may not be, not so much.

Guess who gets to be people, too,

M'lady.

That's not to say 'Emulate me,' btw, it's just that I was long past being committed to the promise of America long before it got to the point that hiding would be a useless gesture.

If you wanna be that paranoid, it really doesn't matter what brand name of witch-burner comes at you.

It just doesn't.

If they want you, they'll get you...paranoid fantasies of Commies or Muslims taking over the same systems notwithstanding.

Doesn't even matter. Not from an Aridian point of view.

Liberty and freedom do not come from fear. We do not support one master or another. Certainly not to the point we repeat nonsense and lies that only serve those-who-call-themselves-mighty.

Even if what you said and quoted were *true,* which it is not, this is no basis for a system of government, as someone alluded to as regards 'watery tarts lobbing scimitars.'

(I don't think it's such a bad metaphor: if they can't handle an oathsword, should they get the launch codes, however their genitals ma be arranged right now?)

"Yes we can,"

"No we can't."

The latter makes Real Bad Cess inevitable, however we contextualize it.

The former is a good chance to avoid a lot of waste we still don't have to suffer from.

Hell, if Obama *were* a Musilm stealth candidate, he might give people someone else to shoot at when somehow identifying with the richest in society cuts into the beer budget.

You wanna talk about what Aradia is about, you learn what power can and cannot do and figure out how life is never that abstract.

If Muslims suddenly made some kind of credible bid to take over America, we'd be the Christians' *darlings.* They're already in a minor snit about some dude in Saudi Arabia getting his wife executed over his failure to get a stiffie.

It's like, "Oh, would you be liking a little Curse of Macha? That wasn't witchcraft, your Viagra problems, but if you want to worry about witchcraft... This can be arranged. "

*taptap on table.*

We are not them.

Get realistic, here. The Religious Right thinks it's OK to ask their God to wreck Tampa Bay or New Orleans if gay people are there, (funny how that backfires, not that people still don't get hurt) ...then (as we've seen here) try to tell us they're nicer 'masters' than the Muslims they fear like the Bolshevik in every cupboard.

If some nefarious 'Muslims' tried to take over America a-la-their Dominionist fantasies, we'd suddenly be the *Christians' best friends.*

Got people who supported the Taliban and used to make sure that if you got raped in the name of Jesus while wearing a skirt above the knee...now all up in arms about burkhas.

Sure, they blame *us* for the 'Girls Gone Wild' videos, but, hey, Hillary and Tipper Gore were all behind censoring music via the PMRC in the 80s.

This is *America.* Our elections are *not* about media corps choosing dictators-for-life-on-the-installment-plan... We're not only supposed to *elect* people, we're supposed to hold them to their promises.

We do not promulgate paranoia.

Bunch of cowans decide they want a religion to take over Liberty's land, it doesn't much matter which it is.

Not to us.

Another thing that name should have taught you.

"I personally don't think my Magickal name has anything to do with it.
Why out of all I said are you picking on my name?"

Because if you call yourself that, ou must represent better than vague, if strident, xenophobia...about accusations you cite that have been thoroughly-debunked as the racism and smears that they are.

Because anyone *speaking* that name, never mind *claiming* it has a duty to the facts not seen in many.

What your *namesake* teaches is a lot more involved than 'I want a woman rather than the black guy, and will regurgitate smear campaigns to get it, then protest innocence about it' when the very name comes to you from people who knew when to *shut up,* never mind take sides in illusory 'cultural wars' while trusting the smears and fears of priests and emperors both to do it.

Capiche?

"Im a practicing Pagan of over 2 decades.
I just don't think that a Muslim Man is right for office, seeing we are at War with Iraq, and he has ties to them."

Unlike Cheney's, of course.

We *do not pick up other peoples' xenophobias and treat them as fact,* sister, we do not categorize, we do not look at a man's color or upbringing, take it through the lens of Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly,' and determine he must not mean what he says when people we know are liars lie about him.

No, he's *not* a fricking Ascended Master, and as a matter of fact, he clearly *knows* it, which of itself is a vast improvement over the Christian equivalent.

"I just think it is time for a Women to Run the Country, not a Man."

I say it's time we stopped being run and started working.

Not that a little estrogen in the Oval Office would go amiss right now, but the fact is, as competent and respectable as she is, her skills are well-earned and formidable in a way of doing things that just ain't working so well right now.

I'd be proud to call her my President. I will *not,* however, join the racists and xenophobes and swiftboaters in any campaign of paranoia in claiming that Obama is the Manchurian candidate just because he might actually better understand the humans that are these 'enemies' the Christians teach us to fear are.

The story of Aradia is not one of caving to the fears of the general populace...

It certainly *does not* mean it's OK to get racist about anyone who competes with anyone-with-a-vagina.

Gods.

The very name means we have to be sharper, bolder, more discreet, and *better* than the yammering voices of fear and racism and paranoia, not *part* of them, then saying, 'I like a woman for this, you don't support the woman cause she's a woman, you must not be ...an independent woman who knows her own mind.'

Like you said of Starhawk, and apparently, myself. And someone I *will* address as Lady without much hesitation.

Of course, cowans think *all* our names are funny, but if you wanna call yourself 'Lady Aradia,' you beter be fricking *sharp* not trying to borrow vague fears of Muslims who ain't here to support a slightly-more-corporate agenda, there.

(Yes, non-Pagans, we have *standards.* )

I carry a rather humbler name, and if you hadn't noticed, I don't even trumpet *that* on the Internet with recycled quotes of *thoroughly-discredited smear campaigns.*

Check facts. Before you go calling other women 'deluded' for not giving sufficient weight to Religious-right-bread conspiracy theories designed to smear.

Frankly, if all of what you say were *true,* your namesake should have taught you to have the sense to keep your head down.

Thank you, Starhawk, for once again providing us with insightful and articulate words on current issues. You continue to awe me with your ability to speak what so many wish to say and cannot find the words for.

As for the comments that have berated Barack Obama and would like to know more about his experience, please check out the A&E Classroom documentary on him. It aired early this morning and it has now convinced me that this man has the experience and the cultural know-how to turn our failing government around, as best it can be. He also has foreign policy experience that many of our previous President's did not...he has lived in Indonesia and Africa and always been in touch with BOTH sides of his heritage.

No, miracles will not happen...the war may not end the day after he hits office...the economy may not turn around that day either and more than likely our healthcare and educational systems will not magically be fixed...BUT...

As a practicing Pagan, I can tell you that if you believe in your words and you are a good person, the Rule of Three will prevail. Barack does believe in his words and those of others, and he is a good person. What he puts into fixing our country will come back threefold...just as Mr. Bush's has...bad went in, bad came back...so when Barack swears into office next January...our country will see positive results ...over a period of time. What has taken 8 years to screw up cannot be fixed in 4...give the man the respect of researching him before spouting your dissidence. You may be surprised.

Brightest Blessings to all,

Debi "DragonLion" A.

Im sorry you think I am breaking all the rules of our faith, but I can see right through him.
Maybe I am wrong maybe Im not, and as a Pagan I did get alittle out of line with what I say,and I humblly appologize for that to all Pagans.
But I still stand firm on the way I feel about him.
When I did the first post I was angry, and yes I said things I shouldn't have.
But when it comes right down to it, as a Pagan Women, I would like to see a Women in charge for once.
Hillary is looking to get our healthcare straightened out, and so much more, she has dreams too, but she doesn't come off in the way of Faith, like Obama does, he is playing on that.
Yes Obama says the same, as a cut in price, but Hillary is tring to get it Universal.
I wish all the Goddess Blessings, and Harm to No One, I'm just seeing things as I see them as a person looking in at someone, and I can see right through all the garb.
Remember his is running for President he will say anything you want to hear, and he knows Religion is a Big part of life so he is using it to his atvantage.
If Hillary started doing the same from the get go, you would be saying the same about her.
I for one think as a Pagan and being it used to be a Matriarchy world forced into Patriarchy, this is the time for WOMEN to Be in The Presidential Seat.
As far as being against him because of him being African American, No that isn't the reason for my untrust in him.
It just seems as though to me he is putting on an Act to pray on People that aren't Faithful and the Very Faithful people who do want change.
He's on a roll and everyone that is blinded by all the things he says he can do,may be in for a big surprise is all I'm saying.
That is my oppion, Im sorry If I upset the Pagans on her but I was very angry, and yes I do appologise.
Blessings
Lady Aradia

Yes I know who Aradia is, I have been called that for over 2 decades.
As far as my name what in the world would that have any thing to do with what I said and how I think, and feel about Obama.
I personally don't think my Magickal name has anything to do with it.
Why out of all I said are you picking on my name?
I do know whom she was and whom her mother was, and her father.
Im a practicing Pagan of over 2 decades.
I just don't think that a Muslim Man is right for office, seeing we are at War with Iraq, and he has ties to them.
I just think it is time for a Women to Run the Country, not a Man.
I don't care how much he sugar coats himself to every one, making himself look like another MLKJ, he isn't and doesn't know what the heck is going on in the economy, Im just worried for all of us.
I take back the harshness I spoke, but as far as being for Obama, I'm not, and wont be.

I hope you all have a Blessed Day.
Lady Aradia

Once of the beauties of faith is Truth. Why would someone calling herself Lady, post lies about Obama? Sounds very Aryan to me. Why would anyone believe these lies because the internet said so.

Wake up people. The forces of darkness are out there and they are coming out of the corners to attack Barack.

I believe in religious tolerance but postings like this "lady aradias" just focus on spreading hate and lies. Doesn't bode well for the "pagan" community. I personally am a Christian after being around the map for many years. I don't like it that pagans lump christians together either but I figure it is more intolerance. Christ was about love. Can't get any higher than that.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Obama EMPOWERS people while the others act like we are helpless children and they will take care of us in the tradtional white, patriarchal way. Thank you. As Obama said, we are the ones we have been waiting for. I feel he was sent here by God to help the human race. A real boddhisatva, ascended master.

I find it rather odd that so many people make such an effort to talk about how false pagans are. Most of the time it seems like they are doing it in fear. If our religion is as fake and made up as they would have us believe then what is there to fear from it or us?

It seems to me that there are a lot of people giving a lot of power to something they profess to not believe in. This is something that most people don’t seem to ever see or understand; yet to me it is common sense. If you truly don’t believe in something why spend so much time giving it your energy? In doing that you are giving it your life force and thus giving it life.

The more you feed something the more it grows and the stronger it becomes. By the same token if you spend little energy on something and don’t feed it then the being in question has nothing to sustain it and thus it will wither and die. This is why I keep telling my sisters and brothers to leave the Christians alone. But then the only fear I have of them is that they will disturb my Saturday by attempting to “give me their message”. As the song says:
I fear no church, I fear no hells
No holy ghost or wishing wells

Lady Rowen
Wisteria Temple, Inc.

Anon,

Calling herself Lady means something to us Pagans. And either she is what she claims and is breaking every principle we have, or she is claiming something she has no title to.

Calling herself Lady and making that kind of statement demeans us...does she even know who Aradia was? That statment was a steaming pile...and it came from someone that has taken a title that is earned through years of study and contributing to the Community.

Calling her on it was not mean of Paganplace...it was called for.

Lady Keir, Hp's
Wisteria Temple, Inc.

Are you *serious,* Anonymous?

Besides, that's not 'mean,' ...that was me putting it delicately.

I can hardly ask Christians to rein in their hate-speakers, then nod politely when someone claims to be 'Lady Aradia' and repeats slanderous accusations about a public figure ...from someone trying to call him a traitor based on insufficient genuflecture to the 'Holy Bible.'

Probably just one of the regular trolls trying to act out a caricature of 'feminist Paganism' anyway.

It's not exactly convincing, either.

I don't run around calling myself 'Lady this or that,' but I do honor certain expectations of teaching better than *that.*

And so I did.

Paganplace,

Can you respond to someone's comment without being mean?

Please, nitch the nasty comments. This is an opinion blog. Not everyone is going to agree with you or me, and that is okay.

Calling yourself 'Lady Aradia' don't change the smell of *that* steaming pile, whoever you are.

But, she's basically the Queen of 'Careful what you name yourself.'

Bon appetit.

I personally think that Obama is a person that was made from birth to be directed towards the main office of the USA to sabotage it from with in.
Just look at his name:

Barack Obama

Sounds like a name made for the Iraqs brother hood, and to bomb America.
Am I the only one who see's this?
There is proof he has some dealings with Osama Bin Laden, and I think the people of America are so blind to his Line of Crock.

I for one would rather take the chance on a Truely American Women, than a Man that has no clue whats going on in the first place, and one who has a shady background.
Im sorry I just can't see him as the President of the United States.
I see distruction, and uncontrolled people if he does gain Presidentship.This world will change for the worst.
Where I come from, alot of African Americans already thnnk they can push us around.
How will it be if our President of the United States, is a African American?
Will we fall victim to them?
Im sarced and sad to say I think the people of the USA that are voting for Obama, will be sad they did.

That is my oppion, and I do have that ammendment, Freedom of Speech.
So Far:(
This below was sent to me from another sorce:

Importance: High Who is Barack Obama? Very interesting and something that should be considered in your choice. If you do not ever forward anything else, please forward this to all your contacts...this is very scary to think of what lies ahead of us here in our own United States...better heed this and pray about it and share it. We checked this out on 'snopes.com'. It is factual. Check for yourself. Who is Barack Obama? Probable U. S. presidential candidate, Barack Hussein Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black MUSLIM from Nyangoma-Kogel, Kenya and Ann Dunham, a white Atheist from Wichita, Kansas. Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii. When Obama was two years old, his parents divorced. His father returned to Kenya. His mother then married Lolo Soetoro, a RADICAL Muslim from Indonesia. When Obama was 6 years old, the family relocate to Indonesia. Obama attended a MUSLIM school in Jakarta. He also spent two years in a Catholic school. Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim. He is quick to point out that, 'He was once a Muslim, but that he also attended Catholic school.Obama's political handlers are attempting to make it appear that that he is not a radical. Obama's introduction to Islam came via his father, and that this influence was temporary at best. In reality, the senior Obama returned to Kenya soon after the divorce, and never again had any direct influence over his son's education. Lolo Soetoro, the second husband of Obama's mother, Ann Dunham, introduced his stepson to Islam. Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi school in Jakarta. Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is followed by the Muslim terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world. Since it is politically expedient to be a CHRISTIAN when seeking major public office in the United States, Barack Hussein Obama has joined the United Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim background. ALSO, keep in mind that when he was sworn into office he DID NOT use the Holy Bible, but instead the Koran. Barack Hussein Obama will NOT recite the Pledge of Allegiance nor will he show any reverence for our flag. While others place their hands over their hearts, Obama turns his back to the flag and slouches. Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential candidacy. The Muslims have said they plan on destroying the US from the inside out, what better way to start than at the highest level - through the President of the United States, one of their own!!!! Please forward to everyone you know. Would you want this man leading our country?...... NOT ME

" Anonymous:
there are no spells."

*laugh,* Just, in your world, notions that the American people actually supporting a candidate must be for mysterious reasons entirely contrary to what the media calls "reason?"

:)

For purposes of this discussion, consider the 'spell' to refer to an 'operative metaphor.'

Starhawk's just saying, in this case, that it's a functional and good one, as opposed to various other illusions people have been subject to just lately. :)

"there are no witches or warlocks or anything of that sort."

If you could just tell the preachers that, it'd probably be enough to be getting on with, apart, of course, that Pagan religions and their people *do exist,* sure as I'm sitting here.

(You could make a case for warlocks not existing, though: contrary to popular belief, a 'warlock' isn't 'A male witch:' in some few traditions it's more akin to an 'exile' or 'convict,' .... you only get 'ward-locked' if you consistently use magic for bad ends, betray oaths, and all those other things Pagans past and present get a burr up about.)

"you are a fraud making money off the mentally impared who think you and your expensive siminar will give them the answers."

If you consider that 'spell' comes from the same word as 'Spelling,' as in learn some, and 'Gospel' as in 'God's Spell,' or, 'It's all right if Christians do it,' let's not go calling someone a 'fraud' who does exactly what she sets out to do.

Not all Pagans agree with her, particularly on some of the finer points, and particularly on the political activism, (which, to be honest, often went across even *my* outspoken grain till the sociopolitical landscape took a serious fork for the 'Oh, Gods, we're in it now, aren't we,'

But she's not a 'fraud.' So happens I was part of organizing her coming to speak somewhere.

Compare that to what the fanatically-deluded get paid to run around churches and call us 'witches and warlocks.'

"CCNL,

Would you settle for Postmaster General?"

Yikes! All the junk mail would be from *him!* :)

Arminius isn't a 'Bible thumper,' Concerned. I think he represents his divinities and his religion with real good human qualities.

You know, like most atheists aren't hateful and obsessive-compulsive about any appearance of any kind of spirituality or religion whatsoever? :)

All you're doing is dancing in some mask of the fears Bible-thumpers like to cultivate *as* having to do with anything not-evangelical-controlled.

Which I do find interesting.

Definitely behind you on this, Arminius.

Oh, and, AHO:

"PS THE HIGHEST FORM OF LOVING THE GODDESS IS TO LOVE A WOMAN!!"

A) The highest form of loving the Goddess is, if you asked me, loving Her entire universe in *everything,* most *particularly* in another, (whatever form they may be taking right now) ... but also in yourself.)

It's not a contest, though.

You're obviously speaking of 'the ancient altar.' ... This is one form... And a darn important one, if you asked me.

Everyone has a mother and father, after all...

This doesn't mean it's 'feminist' to accuse a woman of being irrational about 'mother issues' because she supports the candidate *she* articulates support for.

Seriously, now. Hillary is a fine candidate, as unwise as it is to go negative against a candidate people *really like,* ...But yes, we irrational, if revered, girls can actually make decisions on policy and the relative importance of leadership qualities.

In this case, that quite often means Obama's our guy.

If you respect women, respect *that.*

B) No need to shout. If you're actually Pagan, you should pay attention to the effects of your actions: typing with the capslock on does... what?

Annoy people and appear hysterical.

Which, I'm afraid, is exactly what Hillary's done with her recent speech. I'd rather she'd taken the high road all the way. Burned some bridges, there, she did.

there are no spells. there are no witches or warlocks or anything of that sort.
you are a fraud making money off the mentally impared who think you and your expensive siminar will give them the answers.

I started follwoing the USA presidential race with an open mindedness. I was/am curious to observe how the world moving towards cahnge. The perception of people regardless of their color, race, religion and political affiliation shown dramatic change. After having observed, this very historical presidential race,which is still going on I came to the conclusion that people are one in their search for justice and good things in life. I want to be clear and understood well, I am not for white or black president, but I am for a leader who is people oriented, a leader has human heart and human mind. My color is black like some one's is yellow or red or chocolate.
Why is it most American youth are going beyond racial or color profiling in terms of supporting whom they consider is an agent of change. If this is the case Americans are going to retesity that democracy is possible; justice is achievable; people's unity is a must; and economic justice must be worked out. American is in a challenging moment.
I am a recent african immigrant. My love to America is equal to my love to my continet Africa, more espeficiall yto ethiopia. The otucome of American presidential election detemines jusitce in Africa, in particular in ethiopia. Clintons and Bushes promoted in Africa dictatorship. I think this might change soon.
I forsee Obama becoming the next USA president. I want to see Obama dismantling the chain of African dictatorship. I want to see Free Africa from unprofessional political leadership. May God bless of people.

These seem like arguments against Obama from my perspective. Obama's rhetoric isn't original, and its success is frightening. He lacks experience, substance or ideas. Obama's message is meaningless pablum meant to appeal to the hypocrisies of the cross-racial middle class. Which is to say, his election depends on appealing to the same middling class interests that are responsible for most of our problems. He's about nothing more than the appearance of change, and appearance is the sum of his worth.

The only spells he's casting are the same old worthless PR lies and empty spin, made novel this time by making people believe that there's some moral or social significance MERELY in the election of someone who's racially mixed. Considering their politics, both Obama and Clinton are regressive.

I really enjoyed your comments about Obama. However, your attack on fathers was unnecessary and too personal for this article. There are many divorced dads who did the diaper changing, homework, PTA and Sunday school. From what little information that is avalible about the homelife of Barack Obama, he appears to of that ilk.

The competition for the Democratic nomination is not about black men with voodoo mind control ("...casting a good spell...") and nagging mothers. Obama's words of hope appear to be genuine and sincere. His positve personal charisma is in stark contrast to Clinton's plastic smile and doomsday predictions.

Clinton is being forced out her parallel world of secrecy, privilege and power relationships; and she is obviously very uncomfortable. She was unprepared to deal with a direct challenge to her coronation; and now she is overtly angry about it.

White liberals like the Clinton's can be very patronizing to Black people with leadership qualities.

I started follwoing the USA presidential race with an open mindedness. I am curious to observe how the world in changing. The perception of people regardless of their color, race, religion and political affiliation shown dramatic change. After having observed, this very historic presidential race, I came to the conclusion that people are one in their search for justice and good things in life. I want to be clear and understood well, I am not for white or black president, but I am for a leader who is people oriented, a leader with human heart and human mind. My color is black like some one's is yellow or red or chocolate.
Why is it most American youth are going beyond racial or color profiling in terms of supporting whom they consider is agent of change. If this is the case it is AMerican young people's turn to change the world.
I forsee Obama become the next USA present based on my own interest that is TO FREE AMERICAN Continet from dictators, who were supported by Clintons and taken care by Bushes. Good luck to all of us.

But if you really listen close, which most won't, you can hear echoes of Louis Farrakhan and Rev. Jeremiah Wright, his minster and close friend of Farrakhan. Now that sounds like something this country wants to follow, NOT...

Also, how can you stand for a man who can't place his hand over his heart for the National Anthem. His reply is "Baseball players don't do it". Now that sounds like a President i'd vote for. He really love this country now that his wife is proud of it...

Today the world is run by three of the most secretive institutions in the world: The International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, and the World Trade Organization, all three of which, in turn, are dominated by the U.S. Their decisions are made in secret. The people who head them are appointed behind closed doors. Nobody really knows anything about them, their politics, their beliefs, their intentions. Nobody elected them. Nobody said they could make decisions on our behalf.

In India 1.9million children die annually due to poverty and various illnesses. So killing a few millions more by cluster bombs is justified.I am sure if BUSH happens to read this CCNL will replace C RICE

I voted for a devil-worshipper once, but I did not know he was a devil-worshipper until he won office.

But if you really listen close, which most won't, you can hear echoes of Louis Farrakhan and Rev. Jeremiah Wright, his minster and close friend of Farrakhan. Now that sounds like something this country wants to follow, NOT...

Also, how can you stand for a man who can't place his hand over his heart for the National Anthem. His reply is "Baseball players don't do it". Now that sounds like a President i'd vote for. He really love this country now that his wife is proud of it...

"DON'Y VOTE FOR HILLARY BECAUSE SHES A WOMAN, VOTE FOR HILLARY BECAUSE YOU ARE A WOMAN" -ROBIN MORGAN

I REJECT YOUR COMMENTS-I CAN SEE THAT YOU STILL HAVE TO WORK OUT YOUR MOTHER ISSUES, STARHAWK......

A DISSAPOINTED PAGAN-

PS THE HIGHEST FORM OF LOVING THE GODDESS IS TO LOVE A WOMAN!!

AHO

Thank you Starhawk--

You nailed it. Words do matter, thoughts are things and I agree, we the people hold the power, are the source of hope. I always believe this-- no matter how ugly things get.

Obama is my lord and savior.

CONCERNED CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED[???]

Deflawing American Constitution can Save The World.

"India leads the world with 1.9 million children under age 5 dying annually"

http://www.boston.com/news/world/africa/articles/2007/05/08/egypt_lauded_iraq_faulted_in_child_deaths_report/

...and therein lies the REAL, powerful and critical value and wisdom of Barack Obama, to the United States and the world in the "fierce urgency of now". Well said.

...and therein lies the value and wisdom of Barack Obama, to the United States and the world. Well said.

Can you remove that blasted blurb that covers the climax of this piece? Yes, you can! But no you won't!

:>LOL

Seriously, this piece is right on target and I believe reflects what millions are silently thinking and "feeling." This campaign features the dynamics of psychological battle and mental transformation like few others have in the past, and perhaps moreso than any ever will.

Yes, we will

Government of the people, by the people and for the people.

Direct Democracy

Absolutely brilliant! Obama is playing the archetype to the letter: the Golden Boy/Chosen One, Moses, Aragorn; and allowing everyone to project onto him their best: black & white, rag-to-reaches, immigrant. There are, for sure, less feminine archetypes available out there for women to step into, but Whining Mom never works in the public arena. It seems that the US is particularly refractory to this, compared with other countries (in the First as well as the Third World); may be it's a sign of adolescence.

In 1996, Madeleine Albright, then the US secretary of state, was asked on national television what she felt about the fact that 500,000 Iraqi children had died as a result of US economic sanctions. She replied that it was "a very hard choice", but that, all things considered, "we think the price is worth it". Albright never lost her job for saying this. She continued to travel the world representing the views and aspirations of the US government. More pertinently, the sanctions against Iraq remain in place. Children continued to die.
The September 11 attacks were a monstrous calling card from a world gone horribly wrong. The message may have been written by Bin Laden (who knows?) and delivered by his couriers, but it could well have been signed by the ghosts of the victims of America's old wars. The millions killed in Korea, Vietnam and Cambodia, the 17,500 killed when Israel - backed by the US - invaded Lebanon in 1982, the 200,000 Iraqis killed in Operation Desert Storm, the thousands of Palestinians who have died fighting Israel's occupation of the West Bank. And the millions who died, in Yugoslavia, Somalia, Haiti, Chile, Nicaragua, El Salvador, the Dominican Republic, Panama, at the hands of all the terrorists, dictators and genocidists whom the American government supported, trained, bankrolled and supplied with arms. And this is far from being a comprehensive list. ue to die.

I have come to think that an "inspirational" speech is inspiring precisely because it gives words to what we already felt. The speaker speaks and suddenly we realize that he speaks for us, that he gives voice to what we suddenly know to be true, and have been true of ourselves. And when we also then realize that the words - our words now - hold true not just for us, but for those all around us, then it becomes magic.

An inspirational speaker speaks for each of us, and therefore all of us.

As his opponent has observed, the election is not about the candidates, but about us, so the spell casted is about us finding a voice, a voice reinforced because all the other people around us seem to have found the same voice. And when a lot of us feel we can, then yes, it's not about one experienced person doing her things on our behalf. It's about *us*, collectively, feeling we can, and therefore bringing about the changes that need to be made *ourselves*.

When it gets to that point, it's not about the speaker anymore. It's about us.

That's the spell.
Would it work? would it bring about change?
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy either way.

"Magically speaking, then, Obama is casting a good spell."

Talk about the blind leading the blind.

If Obama, far and away the most liberal member of the United States Senate, is elected president, you will see runaway entitlement spending coupled with higher taxes, institutionalized racial discrimination and more onerous and unnecessary regulations that stifle innovation, raise prices and erect impenetrable barriers to entry for job-creating entrepreneurs.

You will see an all out attack on successful, responsible people as they are enslaved to subsidize irresponsible behavior such as dropping out of school and having babies with no means to support them.

You will see Asians and Caucasians discriminated against on an institutionalized basis in order to provide guaranteed outcomes to politically-favored minorities including criminal aliens.

You will see runaway environmentalism that makes it impossible to build any sort of power plant or refinery or drill for oil anywhere and that, together with a tax on all energy, in furtherance of the global warming/carbon credits trading scam, will raise the price of everything as well as result in rationing of fuel and other resources.

You will see government subsidies of biofuels that enrich the connected while raising both food and energy costs for everyone else.

You will see a government takeover of the healthcare system that will result in lower survival rates for common illnesses, rationing of treatment options, less innovation and death-by-delay in treatment delivery as is already the case in Canada, Europe and Japan.

You will see the appointment of activist judges that, as with prop 187, usurp all power and make it impossible for citizens to intervene to protect their interests even with direct ballot initiatives

You will see a decimated military coupled with a naïve view of the world that results in both immediate and permanent damage to our national security.

In essence, it will be a return to Jimmy Carter and worse. Remember the stagnant economy with runaway inflation, gas lines and a 21 percent prime interest rate?

That’s the “change” that Obama is bringing.

You might call it “Back to the Future” except that this time, we will also have some 40 million (and counting) unskilled criminal aliens and their babies to support.

Hey, I think a lobbyist cast a good spell over McCain. She must have used that ole witch craft to get him to write letters ? I know all about witches. I was married to several of them.

Seriously, from a social-psycological point of view, the sheeple were easy pickings after 09/11. The "event" itself triggered massive paranoia which lead to a false sense of security and then to anger and dissapointment. When afraid, people look for hope and guidance, strong leaders to overcome their fears in some cases. I really don't think it's wise to exploit people when they are down and out.

If Obama tapped into anything, he tapped into a rejection of an old guard known to many as the Cheney darkside clones or the Keepers of the Military Industrial Complex. Corporations have no emotions or feelings. They can be preditors for profit. Cheney is the hunter with the happy trigger finger and lots of people around the world know that too.

If aliens are visiting our planet, they are probably checking our eating habits. They probably would want to know if we are still carnivores. An 1980s song, dissent against diso, sings about war and its aftermath. It goes "it's dog eat dog, man eat dog, dog eats man", a reference to bodies laying in the street no doubt.

Thing about it is, this thing Rev. Jackson talked about tonight, being in the right place at the right time. Bush does not have that blessing. His handlers had him in Idaho when Katrina turned to make landfall and he did not change his plans. In fact this President has probably logged well over one million air miles being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Some say that Bush moves around alot as an anti-terrorim model. If "we are fighting the terrorists over there instead of over here" then why can't the President of the United States actually occupy the Whitehouse at night ? I think that some people that crashed into a field beside a stripmine in Pennsylvania made the ultimate sacrifice.

So it is just my opinion that this movement, a populus movement, was not started by Senator Obama and it's not really for Cousin Dick's leg hosiery for increased heart circulation.

I don't know where it is going, I gave my crystal ball to McCain. A reality check would be qualifications based on education, experience and foresight. People that put others high up on a platform or pedestal are always opening themselves up to dissapointment. There is a massive exodus from organized religion, post 09/11 I would say some worshippers got dissapointed too.

In my future, I do plan to cover a speech by Ashcroft in Florida very soon. Will I be able to listen to that speech, will Ashcroft show up, I don't know by certainly, more will be revealed...

Nice column. Your analysis is right on. I like your suggestion for Hillary.

The people in charge of the WaPo OnFaith forum are being played for fools, by fools, bigtime.

Mindless, meaningless copy and paste dumps, for free! For anyone! ANONYMOUSLY! On every message board! Come over to the WaPo!

This is such a disservice to the online readers.

JUST LIKE BOB MARLEY THE REGGAE PHENOMENON. AS CYNICAL AND JADED AS I THINK I AM- I CHEER UP RIGHT AWAY AND GET BROUGHT CLOSE TO TEARS WHEN HE SPEAKS OF A HIGHER CALLING. I FEEL SOME VERY STRONG METAPHYSICAL/ARCHETYPAL FORCES ARE WORKING WITHIN AND THROUGH HIM AT THIS CRISIS POINT IN OUR COLLECTIVE DESTINY.

demnumber1,
troll back under your bridge...

terra

Hmmm, time again to see where our tax dollars have been going over the past 68 years:

First - A Partial Body Count

1a) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

1b) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

2) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4000 US troops and 81,525-88,991 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

3) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

4) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

5) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

6) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

7) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

8) Then of course the big one: 40+million dead in WWII

Other elements of our Wars on Terror and Aggression:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! Or is he??

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot. This week the NY Philharmonic is playing concerts in North Korea and CNN was shown the now dismantled nuclear facilities.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

Laughing out loud for a minute!! Ah that felt good!! The outburst occurred when I read the "reality challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist said she denounces superstition even though she believes in "pretty, wingie, talking, flying thingies" and thier ugly counterparts, flying camels and chariots, and a crazy, warmongering Arab who heard "angelic" voices in a cave in a sweltering cave in Saudi Arabia sometime in the 7th century and then tops it off by teaching her children that this is all true. Talk about Breeding, Birthing and Brainwashing!!!!

Let me therefore change the cry of the global world to:

"UNTIL THE SUPERSTITIONS OF ISLAM ARE DELETED, NO ONE IS SAFE!!!!!"

Your insightful observations struck a cord with me. How change happens is indeed a mystical process, an emergent phenomenon if you will, which cannot be fully understood by analyzing the actions of individual in isolation - there is a strongly collective, transcendent quality to it. I agree that Barack Obama seems to appreciate this point more fully and thus has thought more carefully about process. The process and content of change (the what and the how) are really two sides of the same coin; they have to harmonize with one another. In order to solve the problems facing us collectively, we will have to find a process that brings us together. Meaningful change will not happen in a starkly polarized environment.

Malcolm Gladwell's book, "Blink, The Power of Thinking without Thinking" is an iteresting discussion of both the wisdom and folly that lie within our immediate impressions of things. I think the first impression that one forms of a candidate- i.e.,whether you identify with the person, see them as likely to act in your interests, etc. is usually what carries the day. Rational arguments are then summoned to support that feeling. Five minutes listening to talk radio or cable news will bear this argument out.

I confess that my initial support for Obama was formed on this basis, and probably still is. But Gladwell does a great job of explaining the depth and complexity of those initial impressions. I have spent a long time sorting out my own thoughts about Obama, and many of them are articulated in this article. The important thing is that feeling as moved as I do by Obama's message and his leadership, I am as a result more intellectually engaged in discerning matters of policy and politics than ever before. I read more, discuss issues more with others, have written letters to the editor, posted thoughts in forums such as these etc. I volunteered for his campaign, which I have never done before. For me personally, that is something tangible flowing from something as ethereal as inspiration.

Hello Chris Everett,

Always a pleasure chatting with you. Yes, I agree this blog being On Faith. But as you know, religion and politics are always in the public square - the personal is the political from abortion to gays to stem cell research to evolution etc.

I got to look at markets nows. The world is economically jittery:)

Thanks and best regards

"J"

Jihadist,

Thanks for your reply. I certainly repudiate the idea of nuking anyone. You say "Just as you intend to purge all beliefs, believe that religion and believers are responsible for everything that is wrong in this world." That's simply not true. I've never said that believers are responsible for everything that is wrong in this world. No single thing is, although selfishness, lack of empathy, etc might qualify.

If this were an "On Politics" blog I might rail against the Bush administration and their (in my view) crimes against humanity. But it's not, and politics isn't my passion anyway. I do feel fairly confident that Bush's religious superstitions have contributed to the deaths of thousands of innocent people. I'm happy to rail against that. But of course that just goes back to the need for "deflawing."

As for Colin Powell, I haven't forgiven him for the UN fiasco. He was uniquely in a position to do the right thing and he chose not to.

Hello Arminius:)

I guess I am more sanguine and blase about what non-believers say about religion and believers. I read the latest Pew polls/survey about personal belief in the US. Those who was previously thought of as agnostics or atheists are simple the ones who are not members of organised religion/church/denominations but still are believers. It seem that Catholics are ones who are most prone to switch denominations.

As for what Chris Everett said, well, like he stated, he is consistent in my denunciation of superstition.

Of course I recognise his reasonings against beliefs to be from Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens et al. It is preposterous to suggest that all human critical and rational faculties are harmed by religious instructions and beliefs.

Sometimes I don't have the heart to remind atheists that while belief may be on the wane in Europe or in the US as they asserted, it is on the rise in East Asia - in China, in Vietnam, in South Korea where Buddhism once reined, more and more are converting to Christianity. Likewise in Africa.

And neither shall I repent from my beliefs.
Let atheists damn me for it:)

Thanks and best regards
"J"

Yo! Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:)

You : "Hmmm, I will take the job. Time we have an experienced AARPie in that job. Being big and mean, I will rip havoc on the backwaters of Islam with 24/7 reminders about the serious flaws in their founders and foundations. Bring em on!!! :)"

Moi : Is the AARP for American Association of Retired Persons? You're older than my dad! The Greatest Generation or the Baby Boomer Generation?

Never mind, big and mean pussycat, there is an 89 years old Malaysian Muslim lady who puts in to stand again for general elections, for the fifth time, as an independent. She never give up in the backwaters of Islam and still trying to rip havoc.

Er, there is less than five Muslims from the wider Muslim world, from the backwaters of Islam, from the Islamic heartlands, who reads On Faith regularly, including Ahmed from Bahrain and yours truly. The rest are mostly from North America.

So, how goes the Crossanization of Americans and deprogramme them of "superstitions'?

So, giving up on Christians and focussing on less than twenty Muslims in On Faith to get the Qur'an deflawed?

Admitting no success in getting Christians to "deflaw" the Bible and moving on to Muslims?

Even the Jesus Seminarians are not getting anywhere. All less than a hundred of them.

Deflaw away!

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated for Secretary-General of the Organisation of Islamic Countries (OIC)!!!

--------------------------------------------------

Chris Everett,

I did not group you with Ann Coulter in any of my posts. I don't think CTCNL minded after "knowing" him all these months.

Our friend Concerned the Christian Now Liberated is enthusiastic, tenacious, sometimes witty, sometimes mischievous, sometimes irritating to those who can't stand his repetive posts. He can say anything, but calling me a terrorist and asking for Mecca to be nuked in some of his previous posts is a bit unseemly for a matured fellow whose "fundamental message is sound" as you asserted. It is the kind of thing one would expect from Frank Collins and Jacob Jovetz. Come to think of it, where is Frank Collins?

Er, since 9/11, more Americans are killed by Americans than by Muslims. At least 85,000. The US still has the most WMD, the most advanced biochemical and chemical weapons. More Muslims were killed by Americans than Muslims killing Americans or anyone else since 9/11.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated's repetitive message that it is all because of Qur'an does not distract from the fact Muslims don't attack those who don't attack them on mess in their internal affairs.

Were the Estonians, Chinese, Brazilians troops, etc attacked by Muslims? Or wait, they don't send their troops to invade and occupy countries for alleged possession of WMDs. North Korea is known to develop WMDs for years and have now nuclear capability. So, they are less dangerous because they are not Muslims?

Aesop's fables, a deflawed book? Well, we always replace old fables with new ones - Lord of the Rings, The Golden Compass, The Matrix Trilogy, The Star Wars series, Star Trek etc.

I know. You are a passionate non-believer who believe religion is "dangerous" and seek to purge beliefs from everyone. But I have a different view. Just as you intend to purge all beliefs, believe that religion and believers are responsible for everything that is wrong in this world, I intend to purge non-believers of this silly sweeping notions, to defend everyone rights to believe what they want, but will not defend anyone or any group or any country for human rights abuses and crimes and murders for any dubious and spurious secular or religious reasons given.

Perhaps some atheists should get as equally passionate about oppression committed by those who do not adhere to any beliefs (China, Vietnam, North Korea) as much as they do with those they perceived to oppress people, commit crimes against humanity and human rights abuses in the name of religion.

Ah oh, don't forget ask A Kafir about the reality of Hinduism in India for a start. Unless you don't care for the human rights of dalits/harijans etc.

Let Concerned the Christian Now Liberated be your leader with his one or two or three points repeated over and over again.

"There is no God, but God" :)

--------------------------------------------------

Hello Arminius,

Thanks for reminding me on Colin Powell. I remember now watching him on TV asserting there are WMD in Iraq to warrant a US invasion there. He did not believe it himself. Yes, he is a very respected US state secretary internationally. Can't say the same thing for Condi Rice with her statements on the "birth pangs" of a new Middle East.

Ann Coulter is not a politician. Only a provocateur. I would worry if an American President or State Secretary say, "We must invade their countries, kill their leaders, convert them to Christianity."

Thanks and best regards
"J"

CCNL,

Would you settle for Postmaster General?

Arminus,

I really don't see what the problem is with my last post. I've always been consistent in my denunciation of superstition, and I reject your implication that the huge bunch of believers in the center, who mind their own business, harm none. They harm themselves and their children by believing things that are false. They blind themselves and their children from knowing what's true. They cripple their rational faculties and the rational faculties of their children by denying them the knowledge of HOW to know. They keep alive a seed of delusion that will continue to sprout extremists from time to time so long as the delusion itself exists.

As I have said before, mankind has emerged from an utterly superstitious past, and superstition, for better and worse, has been the repository of man's wisdom ever since the dawn of culture. As such, our superstitious traditions have been invaluable conduits for ethics and self knowledge. But the time has come, now that we have science, to cast off the superstitious aspects of our cultural heritage and show a little restraint when it comes to what we are willing to believe.

I shall not repent!!! ; )

Chris,

I am really disappointed in you. Whence comes your total black-and-white, either with-us-or-against-us viewpoint on religion? Damn, man, the universe ain't black and white, and neither is what passes as civilization. For sure, a good sized chunk of religion, all varieties thereof, is hidebound, bigoted, and dangerous. But there is a huge bunch in the center, which simply mind their own business and harm none. And there is a depressingly small minority which does damn good stuff.

Open your eyes. For sure you ain't dumb. Your argument condemning all beliefs reads just like the fundie argument that only they hold the keys to morality. Think, man. Open up. Your are better than the words you have just written.

Arminius

Thank you for that wonderful article ! Do I believe in fairy tales ? Yes, yes, yes !

Obama's spell can be defined as a free pass by the media. While the media unscruplously hounded every Clinton remark. Obama was free to say whatever he wanted without question. Scarily this is the same type of press action Bush was given prior to Iraq war. Where are the real questions?

#1 How are you going to get middle America the red states to go along with your hand gun ban, socialized medicine, prochoice, gay rights, leniency on illegal immigrants, and raising taxes. These are the same people that think McCain is too liberal and are voting for Huckabee. Do good oratory skills get you this.

#2 When you talk with Ahmadinejad, dont you think that is going to piss off some of our allies? Do you really think your oratory skills are going to get him to embrace Israel?

#3 You go to a black seperatist church the minister of which believes louis farrakhan, is a great leader. Do you know louis farrakhan believes white people are devils? Can you please explain.

#4 You had to admit in your book Dream of my father that you made up characters...this came out after deep investigation. What does that say about your character.

#5 Where were you when the real bipartisanship was needed to break ranks with the party. You are named the most liberal senator that is not a big sell.

DITLD,

I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis. I voted for Obama in the primary and hope to be able to vote for him in the general election.

Jihadist,

Of course I know what a mess the US economy is in (and the US culture in general). I'm all for the rise of the EU and India, both great cultures that could provide a much needed "shot in the arm" to the US. I'm less sanguine about China, with it's totalitarianism and all.

I think you and others are being unfair to CCNL when you group him (and me!) with the despicable Ann Coulter & company. Yuk! CCNL's fundamental message is sound - religious superstition is a clear and present danger to humanity. It always was, it is now, and it will continue to be, only more so, given the increasing ease with which weapons of mass destruction are available, so long as people continue to fail to understand that knowledge OF the world comes FROM the world. As for his repetitive message, I can understand your having a personal take on him, considering that he seems to be your nemesis (all in good fun, I presume), but consider also that great leaders typically are known for articulating just one or two core principles, over and over, until they enter the public consciousness and are implemented.

Until the Koran, the Torah, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, the Zohar, Mein Kampf, the Communist Manifesto and Dianetics are deflawed, no one is safe!

Aesop's fables - now THERE'S a deflawed book!

Hey there "Reality challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,

No, no, no, eliminate one billion global citizens who no fault of their own were Bred, Born and Brainwashed in Islam? No way!!!

We simply continue to introduce them to the flaws of Islam just like we will continue to introduce Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and Pagans to the flaws in their religions. I predict a 99% acceptance rate with the 1% being all those unemployed rabbis, preachers, imams, clerics, witches, witch doctors and priests who will be holding out for messiahs and second comings.

Confused the 'Christian' Now Libationized:

You obviously know nothing about Christianity. You should keep your bigoted and ignorant mouth shut. Your mind is obviously like a steel trap - rusted shut. There is no use trying to explain anything to you, because you will only continue to spew your cut-and-paste chunks of hatred. Get thee to Gehenna.

Arminius

Arminius, Arminius, Arminius,

Forced conversion of Islamics to Christianity? I thought that was the goal of all "bible thumpers" like yourself.

As the new Secretary of State, the banner over my desk and the heading of all my correspondence will be:

"NO ONE IS SAFE UNTIL THE KORAN IS DEFLAWED!!!!"

Once that is accomplished we will move forward to deflaw Christianity.

I have long admired Starhawk. She has nailed the deep issues of this election.

Jihadist,

Condi Rice's predecessor was Colin Powell, Chief of Staff of the US Military in the first gulf war, and a hugely decent man. He was grossly misused by the knuckle draggers in the current administration. His disgraceful speech to the UN about supporting the invasion of Iraq was urged on him by Shrub & Co. He has publicly said that this was the worst mistake he ever made.

Oh, yeah, concerning the cabinet being constructed by Chris and ConfusedCNL: it must include Ann The B-Word Colter, one of our knee-jerking ultra right wing talking heads, who is on public record for advocating the forced conversion of all Muslims to Christianity.

Arminius

Hi, Daniel ITLD,

Nice post. I urge you to always view Starhawk's essays, she has a lot to offer.

I agree with what you have said. The comparison of Lincoln and Obama is good on one main point: experience. Obama has a lot more experience than Old Abe ever had - he only had two years in the House; the rest was being a country lawyer. He came to fame by debating Douglas when he was running for the Senate. He lost, but got national fame for his skill, which propelled him to the presidency.

You are right, we can't tell how anyone will turn out as president. We can only trust the no-so-sure oracles of our guts. And my guts are shouting Obama.

Arminius

Chris Everett : )

You stated : "Personally, I think CCNL's narrow focus disqualifies him from being President. In our current global climate I'd want him as Secretary of State."

Moi : I have news for you my friend. I'd like to see your narrow focus on Islam and Muslims off too.

While US squandered money and lives chasing ghosts and phantoms in the Middle East for delusioned objectives, China is rising, India is rising, EU is rising. You have not been looking too closely at your economy have you?

Be averse to Islam and Muslims if you must, but together with East Asian funds, Muslim funds are also pumping in the US to keep your financial system and economy afloat. Too bad Muslims do see the bigger global picture even if we don't like Mr. Bush's policies in the Middle East or are fond of neocons.

We can't afford to have a staggering economic giant to fall. Just ask Arminius and Paganplace on the personal impact of the current state of the US economy on employment and mortgages.

As for the elections all round the world in this year -"It's the economy, stupid!" Just ask the Pakistanis who voted sending a message to Musharraf on his botched war on terror causing such dire impact on their lives and livelihood.

And the US Secretary of State...is it still Condi Rice? Can't remember who was before her.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated should appoint Ayaan Hirsi Ali as his Secretary of State. You will love her as much as Concerned do -she want to crush Islam and calls for Islam to be crushed. Only way to do that is to kill all one billion Muslims. Go ahead. Bring on the shock and awe. Bring em on! :)

This is the Year of the Earth Rat.

Thanks and regards

"J"

This is the first time that I have read anything by Starhawk. It was very good. I have a few thoughts that I would like to add.

I grew up in the Jim Crowe south, Virginia, to be honest, which was the premiere state in the Union up until the Civil War, and then went into a dormant sleep for 100 years, afterwards. After Reconstruction, the Repuglican Party was "verboten" in the south, because it was the party that waged war on the south, and freed the slaves, and when I was growing up, the only party was the Democratic Party. But it was not the Democratic Party of today; it was the party of Christian White Supremecy.

When the voting rights and civil rights legislation was enacted under the Democratic Congress led by Lyndon Johnson, I remember, the sitting Governor of Virginia changed his party affiliaation from Democratic to Republican; the sitting Senators changed from Democratic to Republican; I remember all of the public officals all over Virginia changed their party affiliations from Democratic to Republican.

This state of affairs has lasted right up until the present day, that the Republican Party is very strong throughout the south, as a direct reaction to, and against, the civil rights movement of the 1960's. This is the Republican heritage and baggage in the south. Perhaps alot of the younger people do not realize this, but I lived though it, and witnessed it all. The Republican Party has never repudiated this heritage; I am still waiting. Instead, they are now expanding this heritage to isolate and persecute other groups of people who do not meet with their approval.

At the beginning of the Civil War, the North was stuck with that "rube" Abraham Lincoln, with no educaiton, no qualifications, no experience, a rough and course rural "peasant." But the South was led by Jefferson Davis, a refined, educated, experienced gentleman of the old South. How unlucky the North seemed to be.

But Abraham Lincoln had invisible qualities, and experience in life that you don't get by sitting at a desk in Congress, year in, and year out. The North, as it turned out, had a President of keen intelligence, able to mutate from moment to moment, his characteriation of what he and the nation faced; the South, it turns out was unlucky, stuck with a stubborn fool, living in a fantasy world.

We cannot know who will be a good Presient and who will be a bad President. It is more than just the qualities that a man or woman has, and their depth of experience; it is also the challenges that the President will face, and how suited the President is to meet these challenges. And of course, we cannot know, in advance, what challenges will arise, and so we cannot match the candidate up to these, as yet, unmade future challenges.

But I prefer a person of keen intelligence, able to mutate from moment to moment, to a party hack.

I am not sure how many people are left in America who dispise black people on principle, and would never vote for a black Presidential candidate. But I have a feeling that there must be alot of people left, for whom this is at least, some consideration. But by the way that Obama speaks and acts, people actually seem to forget that he is black, and just listen to what he has to say, almost as if there is no such thing as race; to me, that is a miracle. Part of this is in the man himself, but part of it is in this moment of time in which we find this drama unfolding.

To me, this is "yuge!" (to quote the Donald). It's HUGE! To me, this is the wonder of this Obama-phenomenon; this is the irony, not just of politics, but of life, that we are repeatedly suprised by things that we knew would not happen and could not happen, sometimes for the bad, sometimes for the good, but that, nevertheless, against all expectations, do actually happen.

Obama is a fine person; he is better than most. Will he be a good President? I do not know that. At first, I did not support him because I thought he, a black man, could not win. But he is the best candidate, and am following him.

And... it always comes back to Islam, lately. To justify xenophobia over here Whatever. Same thing, in a lot of ways, though. The very divisions in our society which the religious-Right rhetoric create and amplify are the very ones which can make good Americans afraid of other good Americans.

Carole, when I say about some people who speak hatred, and in fact teach each other how horrible non-Evangelicals are,

"“the violence you hold in your hearts toward me that you aren't presently acting on in the name of superior Christian morality”"

"Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t God the only one that can read/know a person’s heart?"

Then of course go on to say, "you are rude, cruel and heartless."

...Well, of course that's not helping to heal anything.

If your heart isn't behind things like that, you're free to stop *saying* that sort of thing any old time, ...start *seeing* some of the expressions of hatred passed off as Christian piety for what they are: what you'd see they *clearly* are if they were ever directed at you.

It's not hard to figure there's violence and hatred in people's hearts when it's in their eyes and on their lips. It's pretty alarming.

Hard economic times and religious scapegoating are a dangerous mix. I'm talking about what I've personally seen and been subjected to: there are a lot of people out there being increasingly taught that non-Christianity is to blame for all the woes in America...

" The only one that said “superior Christian morality” is you."

No, actually, we hear quite a bit about it from Christians in this forum, among other places. You see, the other side of claiming, "Only Christianity this, only Christianity that" is it also tends to mean to people that non-Christians can't possibly have any morals. This tends to equate to us seemingly being seen as 'fair game' in a lot of people's minds.

You hear, 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, take this book literally...' and never no mind that whatever Biblical characters that refers to have nothing to do with the real people it's applied to in the modern world, ....you have people clamoring to burn and censor books that *also* have nothing to do with us for *not* teaching that view of real people.

Yikes, yaknow?

" For someone that claims to know the heart of a person you don’t even know that I do not feel that way............thanks for asking."

Hey, I wasn't making any personal accusations in that regard, just saying you could figuratively walk a mile in someone else's shoes, ...so happens mine have covered a lot of ground.

Hint: the idea 'only God can judge people's hearts' is an admonition for *you,* not a means to claim exclusive access to the true judge of character, and claim everyone else has none.

Or, for that matter, that I don't know it when people are teaching and speaking hatred about others, ...even if they consider this the acme of 'love.'

In my religion, we're supposed to be *true* to our hearts, and mine says we shouldn't be so divided... Even afraid of each other.

Like I said, the Bible Belt is full of a lot of decent, hardworking people who just happen to feel the need to believe I'm the enemy of all goodness and somehow to blame for everything wrong in their world.

Does get a little hairy at times, in my experience. I think the nation can get together around the practical issues, for the betterment of all, ...instead of letting fear and division scare us out of our highest ideals..... and even hope for making it better.

Time to meet the neighbors.

Arminius, The bible Thumper,

How goes everything in the Land of HooDoo??? I wonder if Obama knows the meaning of HooDoo??

Chris,

Hmmm, I will take the job. Time we have an experienced AARPie in that job. Being big and mean, I will rip havoc on the backwaters of Islam with 24/7 reminders about the serious flaws in their founders and foundations. Bring em on!!! :)

Personally, I think CCNL's narrow focus disqualifies him from being President. In our current global climate I'd want him as Secretary of State.

Jihadist,
Sorry, I must have read something that was not there. I took offence where none was intended.

terra

Oh, so THAT's where JJ posts from - a salt mine where they only speak jibberish! :D

Levent,

I hear the Turkish goverment is going all out (TV, radio and required reading at all prayer services) to deprogram Islam and are going to use the suggested Five Step Method as outlined below:

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line.

Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and the Turkish government is guaranteeing a complete recovery from Islamic ways!!!! They will be issuing certificates of course completion. Without said certificates you will be sent to the salt mines where only gibberish is spoken.

Hi, Jihadist,

You certainly have a way with words. I would have been awestruck by your takedown of CCNL if I had not been laughing so hard. Thanks for cheering up my day, and please keep it up.

Arminius

Oh there "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,

Actually only one global ad is needed:

"UNTIL THE KORAN IS DEFLAWED, NO ONE IS SAFE !!!

Pussycat CTCNL:)

Vote Now! Vote Now! Vote Now!

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated
for President of the People's Federated Secular Democratic Crossanized Christian Republic of Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq!

Political party : People's Crossanized Christians Popular Liberation Front

Intellectual ideologues and theologues:
- JD Crossan and other Jesus Seminarians

Ideology:
- Belief in a Singularity
- Everyone not Crossanized are brainwashed

Party platform:
- five step deprogramming programme on beliefs
- Deflawing of holy texts

Political strategy:
- names calling and labellings

Political Ads:
- You are born, bred and brainwashed!

Domestic policy:
- Crossanize everyone into Christians of reality

Foreign policy:
- Nuke Mecca, give all Muslims deodarants to remove their stench as humanitarian assistance and foreign aid

Vote Now! Vote Now! Vote Now!

The sky will open! The light will shine! The sea will part! Hark the angels sing! All will be well for the Concerned the Christian Now Liberated, the messiah of logic and reason has come! He is the prophet of crossanized reality! Hear now! Hear now! We are saved! Hallelujah!

Take it easy pussycat. Don't forget to vote for yourself.

And the "reality challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist continues her normal "obfusing" by making light of the dangers of Islam to infidels like PaganPlace, Skyhawk, "bible thumping" Arminius or CCNL.

On a 24/7 basis, the stench and sounds of Islam are obvious as its members cry out "Death to all infidels" while the religion itself reeks of significant flaws!!!!!

Speaking of powwow, I highly recommend the dated film "Powwow Highway" with Gary Farmer. Indians from the rez. Good stuff.

Hello Terra Gazelle,

I'm just reacting to and having fun with my favourite Crossanized Christian of Reality (CTCNL) on his posts here about hoodoo, voodoo, reincarnation and backward Muslim nations etc.
He is "extraordinarily" "fond" of Islam and Muslims in his posts. :)

Clinton seems to be getting tougher in her campaign against Obama. This is a most interesting battle for foreigners - the first female contender against the first African-American (well half anyway) in the US presidential primaries for bid as President of the USA.

Thanks and best regards
"J"

Jihadist,

The other day on tv a woman was asked who she was voteing for...Huckaby. Why? Because the bible says women should not lead men.

Ok I also am not voteing for Hillary, but that certainly is not the reason why.

I would normally vote for hillary, but she has made some real big gaffs in her campaign. She has shown that being a woman does not mean better.

I am voteing for Obama...it has nothing to do with gender, but what I think he can do that for alot of reasons she can not. Hillary has baggage, baggage that the Republicans would come out of the woodwork to remind everyone of. They would gather together to fight her, while many are voteing for Obama.

I want George gone and any repub that will keep the illegal war going. I want this administration and all its fans gone.

And we have a better chance with Obama. He can unite us and bring peace. That I want. If I thought this woman that is running would do it, I would be really happy...but I do not believe she can.

hijab or burqa or niqabs have nothing to do with it.

terra

Arminius,
yes I have danced in the Powwow dance circle when us tourists were allowed in. I loved it..the people in all their costumes.

The last one I went to, I saw some Aztec dancers..oh my Gods how beautiful with the long feathers and vibrant colors.The young man did a hoop dance, very awesome.

I discovered what a little god that I had found was. A little obsidian figure..the god of new beginnings. Some day I will tell you that story.

I don't know why the magickal herbal practice and a NA gathering are called a powwow. That might be another interesting story.

terra

Vote for Hilary Clinton!

An opportunity for Americans to "experience" women as incompetent as men as heads of state and heads of government!

Even backward, illiterate, poor Muslim countries have had women as heads of states/heads of governments - Bangladesh, Indonesia, Pakistan, Turkey!

So there!

Hilary Clinton for first female American head of state and head of government! And she's not even in hijab or burqa or niqab!

Jihadist,

On Friday November 2, 2007, an Egyptian pharmacist was decapitated with a sword in Riyadh after being found "guilty" of sorcery.

And there are many other cases.

Jihadist, just because you do not do such things, do not say they are not done. I also am not saying that some of the people I have met in this country would not believe that I deserved the same. The only thing that saves me and my co religionist is our Constitution.

You want to have your beliefs respected but think it is ok to poke fun of mine? I have never done that to you.

As far as evolution...we are not from apes, but we do have a common ancestor. How's your coccyx bone? You believe in the flat 6000 year old earth? Some here think dinos was on the ark...baby ones of course.

terra

PaganPlace asked:

"Anyone taking bets on where Concerned reincarnates next? "

And Concerned The Christian Now Liberated answered:

"As long as I am not reincarnated in some "paganplace" Voodoo village full of HooDoo (bad luck) or some Islamic backwater state like Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Malaysia or Egypt, I will be happy.

Then Arminus had some problems with the definition of HooDoo:

From Answers.com:

1.Magic healing and control, especially in African-based folk medicine in the United States and the Caribbean. Also called conjure.
2.A practitioner of hoodoo.
3.Voodoo.
4.Bad luck.
5.One that brings bad luck.

Then the "reality challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist somehow noted that Pagans would be safe in the Islamic backwaters of Islam!!! Even Hexsigns could not save the likes of PaganPlace or Starhawk or the bible thumping Arminius in places like Iran, Iraq, Pakistan or Syria.

"Priver,
I was told the difference between a Yankee and a Damned Yankee...the Damned Yankee stayed.

I am from the North East...a North Eastern, Pagan Liberal...whose best friend is a black gay man.

The South is a lovely place and the people can be very nice, as long as your granma went to school with their granma. But I am glad of one thing...I lived 6 years in Ky. or the culture shock might have been deadly."

I was born in North Dakota, myself, raised in the South most of my life before moving to the Northeast. The Yankee label didn't really apply much until my mother got involved in school functions and other kids asked her to talk because they enjoyed hearing the Northeastern accent.

I guess since both my folks and their families were from the Northeast and we were a Jewish family in an area where nobody else seemed to be, we did sorta stick out like a sore thumb. I always seemed to have a knack for making friends with the black or gay people in my neighborhood, probably because we all felt different somehow- which still seems to hold true today.

The weird thing is, no matter how much I try, the places I've lived in the South have been home to me as much or more than any place since. Being up North around others who think like me is wonderful- but I guess there's a certain romanticism that lingers with childhood.

Reincarnation? Hoodoo? Voodoo? Pow wow?

Well then, I am a reincarnated monkey. I mean, more evolved cousin of apes and most unelightened one too. Me Semi-Ape. You Ape. Uh! Uh! Uh!

Hey, who took my peanuts and bananas?!

Oh yes, we Muslims are just dying to kill pagans and constantly thinking of new ways to kill them all. Top of our kill list after we are done with killing our co-religionists.

Batten up the hatches! Lock and load! The Muslims are coming! The Muslims are at the gates! The barbarians are at the gates! Ahhhhhh..........

Terra,

Interesting. I know about the hex signs on the barns, but have never seen one. To me, powwow is a gathering of American Indians for a conference.

Arminius

Goddess Blessed Yankee...thank you very much ; )

I know...it is said down here that yankees are bossy. Who Me!

terra

Arminius,
Powwow is based on 17th century settler tradition of the Pensylvania Dutch. It is a cultural country magick based on Paganism but uses Christianity.

As in to heal-

Take piece of paper and draw a stick figure on it. Write the name of the ill person on the top of the paper and circle the area of the body that is causing the problems. Draw a circle to the arrowed area..and then write this chant.

Holy Mary
Mother of God
The body is Whole
The Body is Strong.

Powwow root/herb doctors are fadeing away.
If you have been to any part of the Pa. Dutch country, you would see the hex signs on the barns and homes.

terra

To Starhawk: Great post. Inspiring in its own right.

Imagination and inspiration are essential for most any of us if we're to break out of our various ruts, out of our non-purposeful beliefs and habits.

I couldn't agree more with your assessment that many Americans hunger for a message of hope in a world so full of despair.

As you say in your poetic way, all of us carry within ourselves a nobler standard of right and wrong than we typically live up to.

And many of us do have a hunger for any leader that can inspire us to believe in ourselves, individually and collectively, and remind us that we can live and manifest our higher virtues together for the good of the whole.

Obama is inspiring, charismatic, intelligent and offers a vision of working together for positive change if we all believe and all work together.

Can he manifest this vision if elected? Of course not, at least not by himself, not without the sympathy and support of at least 51% of the country.

But if he gets that, perhaps one or two positive and maybe even profound changes in society (maybe even the world) will occur, changes that move us as a collective in a slightly more enlightened direction.

And as you suggest, perhaps Hillary could inspire such change also if she finds her inner Joan of Arc.

One thing I found interesting were your own unresolved projections around the sexy divorced dad myth. Ah, but we all have our internal work to do, don't we. Certainly myself included.

Terra, you said,

"What exactly does HooDoo have to do with Islam? Ever hear of Powwow? Christian magic...similar to HooDoo."

Well, for starters, you're right about hoo-doo; ref the line from Lindsay's 'Congo':
"Mumbo-Jumbo will hoo -doo you..."
Islam? Oh, good grief, Confused the 'Christian' Now Discombobulated. Try to get at least one thing correct at least once.

But, Terra, what does Powwow have to do with Christianity? Not offended, just very curious.

Arminius

Khepri, dung beetle?

I do not believe that Starhawk ever stated she represented anyone but herself. As it is, she very often represents me.

You don't like her positions...don't stand and rubberneck, you have shot your bolt, move on.

terra

Concerned,
What exactly does HooDoo have to do with Islam? Ever hear of Powwow? Christian magic...simular to HooDoo.

In Muslim countries PaganPlace and I would be killed.

terra

Hi, Terra,

Well, actually, there are four kinds of Yankees.
1. Yankees - those people who live up north
2. Damn Yankees - the ones who come down here to visit
3. G-ddamn Yankees - the ones who move down here to live
4. G-ddamn Motherf****** Yankees - the Baseball team, aka the Evil Empire

Always glad to spread the Gospel According to the South!

Arminius

Priver,
I was told the difference between a Yankee and a Damned Yankee...the Damned Yankee stayed.

I am from the North East...a North Eastern, Pagan Liberal...whose best friend is a black gay man.

The South is a lovely place and the people can be very nice, as long as your granma went to school with their granma. But I am glad of one thing...I lived 6 years in Ky. or the culture shock might have been deadly.

terra

Drivel, drivel, drivel.

Another whining Clinton lover who cannot stand OBama. Get over it.

People do not vote for Billary (Bill/Hillary) because she is not a like-able person. Not a pleasant person. Someone you want to run away from not run toward. Look at her facial expressions and body language. Looks similar to yours Starhawk. Anger is easy to spot.

Obama on the other hand is genuinely happy, a like-able person, empathetic, not hostile. He is someone you can like, someone you can trust, someone you run to.

Is it because Billary is a woman? No. Not anymore than its because she is white. Its because she is hostile. Because she is angry. She has every right to be. If he was my husband I would go Bobbit on him. But she must lie in the bed she has made but it eats on her...and it shows.

If only Obama were a woman I would be SO happy.

STARHAWK may be a "panelist" but she sure in Hades does not represent me. Thw woman's psosition make me want to vomit.

Where's my bow and Ted Nugent album?

Uh oh... JJ and Anonymous are back.

I think we're gonna need a bigger smudge stick.

"BTW leave me alone."

Why post if you don't want a response?

BTW leave me alone.

PAGANPLACE:
Just, as the South goes... Just a hint... It does *not* impress me when you talk about how much of the violence you hold in your hearts toward me that you aren't presently acting on in the name of superior Christian morality.

I love you dear in many ways, but that's the kind of thing I find I have to stifle a lot in your good company.
Capiche?
``````````````````````````````````````````````````

“the violence you hold in your hearts toward me that you aren't presently acting on in the name of superior Christian morality”

Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t God the only one that can read/know a person’s heart? The only one that said “superior Christian morality” is you. For someone that claims to know the heart of a person you don’t even know that I do not feel that way............thanks for asking.

i don't like the way you speak to or treat me, you are rude, cruel and heartless.

Just to make it clear, I don't think much of Christians violating their own sacred book, or criticizing anyone else for doing it. BTW, the Raven had the Jewish custom wrong, or at least unclear--Jews do have a custom of swearing to truth on a Torah, though some Jews refuse to do so. But the English & US custom of swearing on a bible seems to have pagan roots.

Paganplace,

As long as I am not reincarnated in some "paganplace" Voodoo village full of HooDoo or some Islamic backwater state like Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Malaysia or Egypt, I will be happy.

The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature. - A. Lincoln

Just words indeed.

See, the thing about this America thing....

It so happns I've been through a number of expreiences I'd prefer not to remember, all other things being equal.

There's a lot of folks out there quoting Bibles and saying we shouldn't have any hope for the future but what they dole out, or faith in ourselves, or in real American democracy.

Somehow, I still believe in the promise of America.

That comes from seeing people at their best, as well as their worst.

Before you go thinking it's vital to swiftboat Sen. Obama, and even the very idea of hope, I ask this of you freely....

If nothing else,

Humor me.

Anyway, not a Heathen, (Norse Pagan, basically, for the studio audience) myself, but I certainly wouldn't swear by Odin lightly, nevermind by the flappy corvid that might pick my bones should I lie,(we Celts attribute these birds to the Morrigan, mostly, whom you would not want to chese off,)

.... but when it comes to trying to swiftboat Senator Obama on the basis some Muslim rep from Minnesota wouldn't falsely-swear on something he doesn't believe in.... well...

I'm still not sure if you spoke in sincerity or mockery, 'The raven,' but to my mind, it doesn't actually matter.

Got Christians on one hand blamimg Pagans for having to swear oaths at all, and in the same breath notaccepting any oath but one sworn on their book that forbids oaths.

Forget about it. ;)

Of course, the Jewish law in the book people are suposed to be discredited for not swearing by says that an oath under duress is no oath at all...

So we're back to a ream of paper, anyway, aren't we.

'There is no religion in compulsion. :) '

Ok, then, now that you've stood for the One-Eed, you'll admit it's not very nice for Christians to try and Swiftboat people for not swearing by the Bible?

Gods know it complicates things.

I mean, they accuse us Pagans of somehow making them swear by things, (Posh! Europeans valuing oaths! Diviltry! That's why, by Christ, (was that an oath?) ... marriage-oaths must be limited to Biblically-ordained heterosexual couples!)

Of course, that's 'taking the Christ out of' 'Give to Caesar what is Caesar's,'

But why split hairs?

If you're 'all for Odin' then your word is no good, unless you swear on the Bible... which means nothing if you aren't Christian.....

Am I seeing a pattern, here?

“Again, you have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but carry out the vows you have made to the Lord.’ But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let your word be ‘Yes, Yes’ or ‘No, No’; anything more than this comes from the evil one."--Matthew 5:33-37

So swearing--on or by anything--was specifically forbidden by the Man. Jews, of course, were not, then or now, permitted to swear by G-d, for exactly the same reason--one could swear to or before G-d, but that is all. I believe the modern custom of swearing in court is probably, yes, a pagan borrowing, probably Anglo-Saxon in origin.

Me, I'm all for Odin! Caw!

Just, as the South goes... Just a hint... It does *not* impress me when you talk about how much of the violence you hold in your hearts toward me that you aren't presently acting on in the name of superior Christian morality.

I love you dear in many ways, but that's the kind of thing I find I have to stifle a lot in your good company.

Capiche?

As *real* 'redneck Pagans' go, you say the usual with all due mirth-and-reverence over a beer can, crack it, and dip a pinkie in there.

Do it right, and it's funny cause the Lord and Lady *are* there. :)

Blessed be :)

Actually, though, the funny thing is, if you're *very* Christian, you get out of the oathswearing and are allowed to 'affirm' ...whatever that means, cause apparently the same book says not to make oaths. But if you don't make an oath on it, your word isn't good...

And people think this is real important. Go figure.

"He commented furvently that the only 'sacred text' to be used should be the judeo-chrisian bible, and no other, since this country was founded on "judeo-christian principles". (News to me.) He then stated that this is what the "founding fathers" intended."

The real tragic part is, when people insist on putting Christian commandments up in the public courthouses, and making people swear on Bibles that may as well be a ream of copier paper, ...they may complain about certain other religions devaluing the testimony of others, ...but in effect, they demand a Pagan either swear by something they don't actually believe, ...or have their testimony devalued if they swear by something we do believe in, like, say, Earth and sky, the ancestors, and our own names, say.

When it comes to whether or not a Christian ex can take your kids, you get to choose to swear by vapors and get called on it later for not being Christian, or swear on what you do believe in and have people attack your character for not swearing on the Bible.

Kind of thing certain spoiled Christians never actually have occasion to think *through* when they demand the government put up religious *commandments in stone* which 'command' people worship only one God.

"PAGANPLACE:

What not to do: Don't pull into a gas station at 50 mph, screech to a halt in a cloud of dust, leap from the vehicle and shout "Fill 'er up, Bub!" to the Cracker attendant on the run to the toilet. That's New York style."

As of... like, 1976?

What they teaching you about Northeasterners? I a) Can't afford 'full serve' if it's ever available anymore, anyway, and b) don't run to the toilet. By the time I get the key, I don't want to look distracted. :) The last I saw of 'full service' was from some folks (In New England, thanks,) who knew my name and had an at-the-time-exaggerated notion of how bad my health was. Gods, one little cry of pain and they're all over you. We're awful, I tell you, awful.

And don't ever mistake me for a New Yorker again, or I'll ...*smile and be nice* :)

Seriously, though, people from the South are like you've spit on their grandmother's grave if you say, 'I'd prefer you didn't, like, call me a baby-sacrificing Satanist Commie for not converting when you barge into my house Sunday morning... '

Then they come to Boston and are like, 'Say 'pahk the caaah. You all are nasty and mean! Say Pahk the cah! Yew queers!'

Yah, yah.

Where they get their ideas, I dunno, but they wail 'PC oppression!' if you mention your life don't revolve around making Southerners feel justified in various inferiority complices. :)

It's one thing about 'Southern hospitality,' ...It usually comes with the implication there's no Northern.

Especially when it comes to Pagans. It's like, 'Guess what, the concept existed before yer man Jesus, there. Don't strain it.' :)

Hi Patti,

It's funny that you mentioned the Quran incident. I had a dream not too long ago that a future president actually took his oath of office on the document it was founded on, namely the Constitution.

That's what I'd like to see. If I were ever elected to public office, it's what I would want.

And yes, I stand by my earlier statement that Obama is incredibly smart. Nobody gets through Harvard Law with honors without it. He was smart enough to kick his own experimentation early and found his purpose. He was elected President of the Harvard Law Review, which he had to work for. He does actually have a record of reaching accords with people, disagreeing with them, and still respecting others' intelligence.

Honestly, I can't say the same for McCain with his propensity for calling those he doesn't agree with four letter words. He has a terrible temper that shows up at the oddest times.

The way Obama's waged this campaign and forced the other candidates to put their best selves forward has upped the campaign as a whole.

I have to question the judgement of someone who bases their entire opinion of a candidate on whether or not they wear a pin on their lapel. Or cannot seem to find out the difference between the Pledge of Allegiance and the National Anthem.

He calls for people to be our best selves. He talks about healing the divisions of the country. Why is that 'unpatriotic'?

Don't vote for him, if you don't feel that he's right- but don't base your opinion solely on what a guy wears or doesn't. That's a pretty shallow argument to make and proves absolutely nothing.

MMA Terra, Arminius, Paganplace..

I was also raised in the south and for years I had to stand up in front of my class and tell them what it was like to be Jewish. I had a lot of people say 'bless her heart' around me.. and then when I was grown up I learned that when those southern ladies say 'bless her heart' it actually meant that 'she's going to hell'. That came as a surprise to me, especially when there were enough folks telling me that right out in the open.

Have those of you guys who've lived in the south experienced that too?

JohhnyBGoode: Campbell was one of the biggest influences in my thinking of mythology and the way it impacts our lives.

Terra- I loved the Redneck Pagan poem. thanks for that. :)

Patti,

A couple weeks ago I and others went to a Parish meeting...in Louisiana we do not have counties but Parishes. We went because a law had been passed that banned "soothsaying"...oh I know it's an odd word, it means truthsayer. But to these numb nutz it meant fortuntelling.

We are Wiccans and divination is a practice of our faith. When they banned it they banned a first ammendment protected practice.

Well we made a statement...and the parish president, who had stated that he was Christian, loved the Lord and would not change his mind, asked if there were any comments for the ban..there were none. But the Council decided they were going to go ahead with the ban...even though there has never been a problem as far as frauds in this parish dealing with divination. The Parish council lawyer told them to lawyer up, they would need it. They already had..one of those Christian lawyers. They are being sued in federal court by a Wiccan Priest. The thing is..I live in this parish and when we win....we will be paying out of our taxes.

I think these Christian lawyers are being trained at Liberty University...and not in Harvard.

terra

Greetings Starhawk,

Friday night, Feb 22, 2008, I was flipping channels, and found a "Christian" attorney, who heads an alternative ACLU...but for Christians. He answered an email from a woman asking about Keith Ellison's use of Quran when sworn in to Congress.

He commented furvently that the only 'sacred text' to be used should be the judeo-chrisian bible, and no other, since this country was founded on "judeo-christian principles". (News to me.) He then stated that this is what the "founding fathers" intended.

The hilarious/tragic part of all this was that he left out the really incredible part....

THAT THE QURAN ELLISON USED WAS FROM THOMAS JEFFERSON'S PERSONAL LIBRARY! HA! No, he was not about to tell the WHOLE TRUTH of that matter! Never mentioned it!

I found it wonderful that it was so, and absolutely tragic that he could not be honest enought to state the truth.

So, can you expound on this further?

Great story, I think!

Thanks for all you do!

Patti Radillo

To lighten up the place...

Some signs that you, yourself, may be a redneck Pagan...

If your ceremonial garb consists of cut-offs and a tube top,
Or if you think a "family tradition" is a dating club...
If you've reached the 3rd degree but not the 3rd grade,
Or if your coven's secret names for the God and Goddess are "Cooter" and "Sweet Cheeks".....
You may be a redneck Pagan.

If your ceremonial chalice says "Budweiser" on it...
If chewing tobacco is considered a sacred herb...
If your circle dance includes the words "dosey-do",
Or if your altar pentacle is a photo of John Wayne's star on the Hollywood "Walk Of Fame".....
You may be a redneck Pagan.

Now if your coven chose it's High Priest at a belching contest,
Or if they chose their High Priestess at a wet t-shirt night...
If your annointing oil smells like "Old Spice"...
And if you have ever refilled your chalice from a keg...
You may be a redneck Pagan.

If your Goddess picture says "Miss September" at the bottom,
Or your God statue looks a little too much like Elvis Presley...
If you have ever written a spell on the back of a Denny's menu...
Or if you have ever cancelled a coven meeting to watch Pay-Per-View wrestling on TV...
You may be a redneck Pagan.

If your children and your dog have the same magical name (Skeeter! Get on over here and cast this circle!)...
If your cakes and ale consist of moonpies and a cold "Bud"...
Or if your coven sword says "Power Rangers" on it...
You may be a redneck Pagan!

If your Book Of Shadows has a picture of Kyle Petty or Dale Earnhart on it....
If your divination kit consists of a picture of Dionne Warwick and a 1-900 number...
Or if your idea of a pilgrimage to a sacred circle is going to the Indy 500....
You're probably a redneck Pagan!

If you chose "Jim Bob" or "Stormin Normin" as a magickal name...
If you think charging is done with a Master Card...
Or if your Balefire says "Coleman" on it...
You might be.........

Now, if your covenstead says "Winnebago" on the side, you're NOT neccesarily a redneck Pagan, but if your covenstead's up on blocks, well......

Now if you Goddess visualizations look too much like Pamela Anderson.....
Or if your initiatory ordeal consisted of being blind-folded with a confederate flag and leg-wrestling...
If your idea of a Pagan festival consists of a tailgate party and tickets to the superbowl...
Or if your ceremonial chants are by Garth Brooks...
You're probably a redneck Pagan!

If your coven's guided meditations start out with a burger at "Hooter's",
or if you think a "Gerald Gardner" is farm equipment...
You are definately a redneck Pagan!

And finally, if you have ever called the National Enquirer because you raised a potato that resembled the Willendorf Goddess,
Or if you have EVER worked love magick on livestock......
...AND FAILED....
You are definately a Redneck Pagan!

Johnmny, now that was hilarious...

When you started to talk about parading under the pale moonlight I was not expecting what I got.
I had to hold my mouth before coffee ened up in my key board.

I was thinking more like dancing to drums.

terra

ARMINIUS:

You're probably right (stranger things have happened). I shy away from MYTH because so many persons think it is the same thing as fiction.

Myth is a belief system, perhaps expressed in a very colorful or imaginative way, that conveys a truth, however disguised or hidden. I give you American Indian lore, for instance -- maidens marrying buffaloes and ascending to the stars, etc. These tales revealed the relationship the tribe had to the world around them, and they see the truth that others miss entirely.

Although I disagree with him on some levels, Joseph Campbell went into this at great length.

First, the lunacy of laws against burning the flag. What is one required to do when the American flag is worn, torn, or tattered? That's right -- burn it. That's proper. Ask any veterans group who will gladly do it for you.

This infantile devotion to inanimate objects began in the 1950's with Joe McCarthy and the phantom Red menace. Communism, folks seem to forget, was legal in this country at the time.

On the other hand, I do so miss the massive torch parades in the pale moonlight beneath the giant swastika, goose-stepping to Teutonic martial music (Wagner gets the blood up), screaming Seig Heil! with extended arm, and worshipping the little corporal as a god. Now, THAT'S patriotism! America could learn so much from the 'rads.

The term can be defined broadly, to encompass the faith traditions outside the Abrahamic monotheistic group of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The group so defined includes many of the Eastern religions, Native American religions and mythologies and as well as non-Abrahamic ethnic religions in general. More narrow definitions will not include any of the world religions and restrict the term to local or rural currents not organized as civil religions. Characteristic of pagan traditions is the absence of proselytism and the presence of a living mythology which explains religious practice.

2 Corinthians 6:14-17, (14) “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? (15) What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? (16) What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." (17) Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.”

Hmmm, I'm the one that needs the sage.......NOT, I'll just pray since Jesus, a friend that sticks closer then a brother has the power over all evil. So Who needs sage?? Backbiter and backstabber never grew up.

Star - beautifully said as usual!

PAGANPLACE:

What not to do: Don't pull into a gas station at 50 mph, screech to a halt in a cloud of dust, leap from the vehicle and shout "Fill 'er up, Bub!" to the Cracker attendant on the run to the toilet. That's New York style.

Down South it goes like this. You pull in soft as a kitten and walk reverently inside the run-down shack called a store. You stand to one side and wait quietly while the owner and the two codgers playing checkers stop talking about the weather. Then, the owner will turn to you. The conversation goes like this, slow drawl, slow as a snail in late fall.

"Howdy."
"Hello."
"Hep ya?"
"I need gas."
"Come to the right place."
Pregnant pause.
"Yont reglar er high test?"
"Pardon? Oh, regular, please."
"Shore."

Then, he'll mosey out like he's got till sundown and fill your tank.

Be a sport and give the man some business. Buy an RC Cola and a Moonpie.

"What's this about sage? I know it is a grand herb for fowl, especially duck. But it seemed to help here, without anything in the oven. Curious people want to know...."

Oh... the smoke of white sage is used in cleansing rituals in many Pagan settings, Arminius: the practice of 'smudging' is something we picked up from some Native American folks (and actually tend to overuse, at times, when we're not in like the city... Be polite where you don't know the spirits, kids...)

But, you'll see sage bundles for sale in most New Age and Pagan stores, for instance, for just the purpose, generally the intention is to clear away any nasties one might have accumulated. We've got a lot of little cleansing rituals we can use, (you got a little taste of a more-urbanized one: bad spirits generally take themselves too seriously... which is probably why we say, 'We're in good spirits,' :) )

Etc etc. :)

As for what I have here, I said, 'most famous,' not 'best.' ;)

I knew I had one of those little bottles of Bushmill's left. (In truth, that's all I can handle these days!)

Wiccan,

Thanks for the education. Sage indeed smells wonderful. I wish I had had a bunch of those sticks back when I had a houseful of overly energetic kids!

Arminius

Paganplace,

Grand stuff, Jack Black,is it not? My home state of Tennessee's finest export.

Arminius

Sage is wonderful for banishing negative energies and cleansing. Also very relaxing. I've seen a room full of unruly kids settle down and start to drift off 15-20 minutes after we lit a sage stick. They're made from wrapping white sage leaves into a bundle and drying them. When lit, they smoulder, not burn, and give off this wonderful fragrance.

*raising a glass of Tennessee's most famous since someone brought up the water of life.*

'uiscebaugh' is a closer transliteration, btw.

Ill-speakers flee, and friends take heart, America lives, and long may Liberty's torch shine! :)

Hi, Pagan friends,

What's this about sage? I know it is a grand herb for fowl, especially duck. But it seemed to help here, without anything in the oven. Curious people want to know....

Arminius

Damnit, Paganplace!

*pulling pin on sage-loaded smoke canister*

I laughed until I nearly choked! Tears are still running down my face! Thanks, that cleared me up. I owe you one.

Arminius

*pulling pin on sage-loaded smoke canister*

Arra! :)

*fling* thunk, roll, * *koffkoff.* *wavin feathers*

*banging pots and pans.*

Be this space cleansed well and truly, or we shall be much further unruly. :)

The way I see it, Terra, they have to have my attention before they start taking up my patience. :)

Wiccan,

Sage, hell! Break out the usquebaugh! My Celtic blood is at full boil. I gotta slack off, and fast.

Arminius

Wiccan I got some going...

now I need a drink!
lol

Sheesh some folks are just set in cement...

hugs to the warriors!
terra

Anonymous,

You have said absolutely nothing of substance here. Your lack of only a few neurons to string together is pathetic. You offer no real arguments, utter no real principles, only bow to symbols. Nothing about what is true belief about America, what it is and what it should be. All you have done is leave your slime trail over this blog. Go, and be done with you. I remain here, with my friends.

Arminius

Give it a few minutes and the smell of "smug" will dissipate. Anyone got some sage?

Paganplace,
I have stopped asking for patience, I get circumstances where I get practice. The Lady does push us to our best.

I believe in America, because I believe that enough folks want what is best...and will fight for it.

terra

Oh, Arminius one more thing,

TAKE A ONE-WAY TRIP TO YOURS FRIENDS AND STAY THERE, IT WILL DO US ALL SOME GOOD.

I can see the immaturity of most on this thread, meaning if you don't agree with us we will not like you......................I though we all graduated elementary school a while ago..........Well, maybe not all of us and certainly not Arminius.

I do have to go and meet a friend; we are going to the movies. Au revoir

Anonymous,

I rest my case, you have proved it. You have no comprehension of any higher principles whatsoever. All you can do is parrot right-wing trivia. By your total ossified inability to subscribe to the dynamics that guide America, you have proven yourself no true American. If I am ever in combat, I pray to God that you will never be at my side.

Arminius

"You are no American if you think that anyone "is above the flag." That is my opinion and I am sticking to it, period."

It does no honor to the Flag, nor the Republic for which it stands, Anonymous, ...to treat it like some cargo-cult object.

It's a symbol, ...of *us,* not something 'over' us.

"Listen PaganPlace,
You commin south? Come on a little more south and visit me! A trip to Naw'lins and some good bisquits and gravy, with some hash browns at my place."

Yep, I keep mentioning that but seeming to miss you in passing. The move is why probably-no-PSG-this year. :)

Definitely couldn't say no to Louisiana food. (One good thing I took from Texas, there was this great place in DFW... It's a wailing lament that shrimp just won't agree with me.)

And wee beasties. :)

Considering I babble about everything else, I don't much like to disclose my location, ...old habits, but there's other means I can tell you about it with. :)

Likewise, Arminius: (except on the knowing-how-to-contact-you bit) I suppose, in part, I'm looking to hear from the human side of Southerners, myself, ...the long-distance signal doesn't sound so welcoming from here as, say, the my memories of the diners are, and I'm not exactly as fleet of foot and sharp on the uptake about when a situation is about to, err, go south, as I was when I last visited. :)

As it relates to Swiftboating, well, Kerry's a great example of some of the ideas of what Red-staters are willing to believe about liberals and Northerners: to them, Kerry couldn't have done heroic actions in Vietnam and then come home to oppose the war in a brave and principled fashion, because they're taught that's impossible, so they were ripe for the deception because it played into their prejudices.

Go to places like that, and they think generations of Catholic schools half-succeeding at drilling the Southie out of your family's manner of speech is actually about some Beacon Hill 'elite,' ...the possibility of some kid of relative privilege going off to do his patriotic duty, being valorous, and then coming home to, with equally-principled intentions, stop what he'd seen going on ...just doesn't exist to what certain people are taught, so, 'Swiftboating' was born.

Fact is, on some levels, half the country's been swiftboated to the other half. It's just right now that a critical mass of people seem to be accepting it. And being willing to work together, to help fix some of the divisions the 'uniter-not-divider' has amplified.

I think this is a heartening opportunity for all of us to see each other more truly... Or at least stop freaking out so much about our differences any time Faux News, or a mega-church preacher points and says 'Freak out!' :)

Heard a good Christian joke, last night.... some deadpan Brit comic said, "I think it's important to tell jokes about religion... I know this makes a lot of people angry. I hear it all the time from Christians, they say, "Just wait tillget my hands on you, I'm going to... forgive you." :)

Starhawk's right that what Senator Obama does is like a good spell... Always was more of a hex-breaker, myself, ...sometimes that means going right where someone threw up an illusion between yourself and your fellow humans, and actually meeting the people.

It's not, honestly, my first choice, right now, but say you believe in a real goodness in people, Lady *will* call you on it. :)

At least for me, that has something to do with this *hope* thing. I still believe in America, uncomfortable realities aside. Blessed be. :)

Arminius, "Obama rises above the symbols. I realize that you have no comprehension of ideals beyond your knee-jerking reaction to the symbols which, sadly, are all you can grasp."
``````````````````````````````````

You are no American if you think that anyone "is above the flag." That is my opinion and I am sticking to it, period.

Arminius, Wiccan...

Namaste and Yeah!

Oh and Anonymous..you might want to be a little careful who you call a pig...get me? We be friends here.

terra

OK, Anonymous, you have gone too far.

Why don't you go and bugger your own self, you bigoted swine? Do not insult my friends here, or you will get it back, as of right now.

I am a veteran. Are you? I served in West Berlin, not the 'Nam. But I volunteered to serve. Where were you? In Canada?

Ah, the flag. The beautiful symbol of America. Let me tell you how I feel about it. Specifically, first, flag burning. In faithfulness to the first part of my oath taken as a soldier (I'm sure you don't know about that), I still will uphold and defend the Constitution. That includes the first amendment, and that amendment insures that flag burning is legal. So, then, now that your right wing blood is boiling... take this! I also, as a veteran, claim the right to beat the living crap out of anyone I catch burning our flag. Ah, yes, life is full of these little dichotomies, is it not?

Obama rises above the symbols. I realize that you have no comprehension of ideals beyond your knee-jerking reaction to the symbols which, sadly, are all you can grasp. Obama sees a higher good, and has the courage to say and show that it is not any rote reply to symbols that matters, but the dedication to higher principles.

I do not expect you have the ability to comprehend any of this. But I am not running for the bunker, I will stand by my guns.

America needs people like Obama. America has had its fill of unfortunates such as yourself.

Arminius

"When facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

And wearing an American flag pin on its lapel, it seems.

terra, I told you that I "saw it" earlier on CNN today. But I'm sure if you will do a search on CNN you will find it.

It was not the first time that that has been reported on CNN.

I am not a Bush supporter but that does not really matter. I don't like lies either.

outing the swiftboaters and family, "ANON - so you're over here spewing your nonsense too."
```````````````````````````````````````````````

I believe that I can spew wherever I choose regardless if you like it or not.

And believe me, I don’t give a shi* whether you like or don't like what I am saying. The one and only reason that you are expressing anger is because I am not say what you want to hear, and that is childish.

post the article from CNN.

and I am not mad..lol. I just do not like lies. Lies should not bne allowed to continue. It's like Iraq. It was lies got us there...and now thousands have been killed and mutilated. Lies hurt. Lies got us Bush..

anyway...I await the CNN article.
thank you,
terra

terra, "Maybe finding truth would be better for you and your country rather then spreading lies from an email."
```````````````````````````````````````````````
CNN is not a lying e-mail, end of story,

Why get mad at me because I do not support Obama, that is my right.

terra, "Anonymous..It was not the pledge..it was the Anthem, which you do not have to put hand to heart for. Also..Obama has LED the pledge many time in the Senate.Hand over heart...

Like I said, check out the info.Someone thinks you are so stupid to believe anything.

Obama was raised by his grandparents..his grandfather was in Patton's Army..he understands being a patriot. With the Pledge you put hand over heart...with the Anthem, you sing. Did you bother to look at the picture taken..was anyone looking at the Flag? That is what you do..hand to heart, look at flag.

Other then that...why do people want to always believe the worse of everyyone?
terra"
`````````````````````````````

Since when do Americans vote for or want a President in the White House that refuses to say the pledge of allegiance or honor the American flag?

That is enough to make me want to have his as* exported out of the USA. There is no question in my mind that he has his priorities fuc*ed up. Down with Obama!

Obama is not a true American if he cannot honor the American flag and what it stands for. He refused to the lapel pin of an American flag as well as refusing to put his right hand over his heart and recite the pledge of allegiance.

You are mistaken it was the pledge, in fact I watched CNN earlier today and it showed Obama refusing to place his right hand over his heart and to recite the pledge.

A presidential candidate that has and will not show respect for the American symbol of freedom, the American flag should not be the USA's representative of freedom and the American people.

It is not a matter of "believing the worst in people." It is a fact that Obama has admitted to.

Anonymous,
I am a daughter of 2 WW2 vets..both Mom and dad, dad was in the Army Air Corp, mom was a WAC...a wife of a Viet Nam vet...a sister to a marine Viet nam vet. So tell me does that make me the winner?

There are truths and lies...it is easy to believe lies, harder to find the truth.

I love my country as much as anyone..and I do not need a flag pin or a bumper sticker on my car. A patriot works for the country, for it's people, they do not have to wear a piece of decoration from China..now tell me how patriotic is giving money to China?

Maybe finding truth would be better for you and your country rather then spreading lies from an email.

As far as Bush...here is something from The Economist, not exactly a liberal paper:
http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/bagnews/2005/11/in_which_george.html

terra

outing the swiftboaters and family:

Thanks for your reply to anon - whichever of the anons he was. I was composing a reply, but you did it well.

I am a Viet Nam era vet; did not go there, served in West Berlin. I am proud of my service, and I am proud of my flag. But I am much more proud of the American people and the Constitution that I swore to uphold and defend. And Obama's first allegiance is to the American people, and to our Constitution. Anon and his ilk should slink back to their hate blogs.

Arminius

ANON - who says you can't have both and what is your diagnosis?? Or is this a self-diagnosis???

Any way you look at it the behavior is deviant, disruptive, and non-norminative within conventional behavioral guidelines.....take your best shot.

You're not hurting my feelings.....remember your 1st ammendment rights.

Anonymous (who doesn't even have the courage to put a "handle" on his name)- you got an answer. Read the article in Snopes.com.

Interestingly enough, most of our troops are supporting Obama and Ron Paul. So, put your false patriotism where the sun don't shine. Because REAL soldiers, not just ones that are living through their brother, are supporting Obama.

I don't want to hurt your feelings but this comment you made.... "There is a big difference between mental illness and personality disorder - the latter applies in this case."

....is not correct, sorry. :~(

ANON - so you're over here spewing your nonsense too. What say? Your brother is still in Vietnam?? I was there 35 years ago and I could of sworn he left when I did.....must have liked it over there.

What you need to do is put a sock in it and join up - do your duty and then decide if and when you'll be wearing your lapel pin. Nope, didn't think so ..... all talk and no walk.

Typical pseudo-super patriot neocon horse crap.........

Terra,

Hey, dear lady, I got four-footed buddies here too, two dogs, three cats. They are members of the family. But I happily consume vast quantities of (partially) cooked pieces of dead animals..... well, the pork and chicken are well done...

Ah, New Orleans. Nothing like it. Cafe du Monde, YES! And the music? OH GOD BE PRAISED! Nowhere in America that I know of can you buy a beer on the street, walk around with it, and listen to live music. And eat some of the best food anywhere, almost anyplace. I miss it.

Arminius

Arminius

umm me too. But I love my four footed furry kids...

A must as often as possible is going to Cafe du Monte and getting cafe au lait and beignets.That slightly bitter coffee with the sweet powdered sugar covered french donuts....ummm and watching the people and listening to the old man playing jazz clarinet...oh wow, I miss it. Have not been for a while.

Last time I went we went to Landry's. Oh My Goddess! Steak with a topping of crab, mushrooms and herbs...with Bananna Foster for dessert. UNforgettable!

But then the Muffalottas from the General Store followed up by a praline is good too...lol.
terra

Terra wrote" Now, contemplate George Bush...That man never did get right walking and thinking at the same time."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You gave facts to support your rally for Obama but the above reference regarding Bush, notta ............get a grip will you? You were trying to make Obama look good with a lot of "fluff," which I assume came from his website tooting his own arrogant horn, rather then doing a comparison.

You argument sucked and was all one-sided. So while we are on the subject why would a presidential candidate do the following?

Since when do Americans vote for or want a President in the White House that refuses to say the pledge of allegiance or honor the American flag?

That is enough to make me want to have his as* exported out of the USA. There is no question in my mind that he has his priorities fuc*ed up. Down with Obama!

Obama is not a true American if he cannot honor the American flag and what it stands for. He refused to the lapel pin of an American flag as well as refusing to put his right hand over his heart and recite the pledge of allegiance.

Obama's says in regards to the above "I can represent America and the American people without honoring the American Flag. How can Bema in good faith call himself a "true American"? Obama is a terrorist and I do not want him in the White House.

My brother is a Vietnam Vet and he fought for the freedom of our country and for America to fly our flag under the name of freedom. I’ll be dam if I will vote for anyone who will not honor the American flag and our countries vets who fought for the USA’s freedom.

Paganplace,

I see what you mean, and I mean that. I am sorry if I came across as misjudging you. Because I am so completely accepting of Pagans and also the gay crowd, I sometimes forget that others have to be more careful and, yes, rightly fearful. Damn, lady, we have a lot of work to do. And it is a slow going. But there is progress! My daughter, straight as an arrow, is a senior at a college in the heart of old Dixie, Birmingham Southern, in Alabama. She is a member of the Gay and Lesbian Alliance there. I have welcomed the whole bunch into my house. There is hope here, and elsewhere, that, by damn, we CAN all get along!

Arminius

Anyway, I hope you see my meaning, there, Arminius, ... the region's full of some very nice people who just happen to be exposed to an awful lot of propaganda that says I'm an 'evil witch' out to destroy their friendly little worlds. You're a white straight man and a Christian, so you may not so much notice exactly now scary this can be, especially when it's the cops.

Not that you don't see that, elsewhere, but I think it's something that certainly can be exacerbated by the politics of division... If people like you, they assume you agree with certain things, ...if you don't agree, suddenly you're not so likeable, after all. So, you tend to be silent, or oblique, for your own safety and that of those around you.

Among some very good and nice people, there's a lot of hardworking and polite, very well-armed folks that just happen to believe I'm the enemy of all goodness and light, not to mention being somehow to blame for everything wrong in their lives or sense of the world. When you hear yourself being demonized on the radio in, say, a Waffle house, it changes the tone. (The particular place I'm speaking of had a darkness about it, anyway, mind you.

My worry is that the politics of division and Christian-Right xenophobia have made it a bit more threatening than it last was... and as always, more so than people really believe they are... when you're an abstraction, not a human being. to them.

It's also hard to build bridges when you have to hide from them.

These are the kinds of divisions in our society that most need to be *healed* so that we can make certain important things better, together.

See what I mean?

Anonymous..It was not the pledge..it was the Anthem, which you do not have to put hand to heart for. Also..Obama has LED the pledge many time in the Senate.Hand over heart...

Like I said, check out the info.Someone thinks you are so stupid to believe anything.

Obama was raised by his grandparents..his grandfather was in Patton's Army..he understands being a patriot. With the Pledge you put hand over heart...with the Anthem, you sing. Did you bother to look at the picture taken..was anyone looking at the Flag? That is what you do..hand to heart, look at flag.

Other then that...why do people want to always believe the worse of everyyone?
terra

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/anthem.asp

I love snopes.com

Terra,

I can agree on Louisiana on most points. True, it is very difficult to find bad food there, especially in New Orleans. I love my father's description of that wonderful city: "I ate my way through New Orleans". On the other hand, I adore the coffee there.

But... er.... PETA? I am a happy omnivore.

Arminius

Paganplace,

Your experiences at the Waffle House, or other such places, are much different than mine. Note please, that I do not doubt you - I am aware of that undercurrent here in the South. But I seldom run into it here. But I am always hugely comfortable in any Waffle House here in Georgia. My daughter, a huge liberal and a vegetarian, loves them too. Maybe you should come to Georgia? Mind you, I spent two years in Texas (Austin) and loved it.

Arminius

Listen PaganPlace,
You commin south? Come on a little more south and visit me! A trip to Naw'lins and some good bisquits and gravy, with some hash browns at my place.

New Orleans coffee will put a hole in your stomach, but mine is good.
There is no such thing as bad food anywhere in Louisiana...

I am serious...come visit.
I can guar-en-tee good Pagan conversation...enough animals to make a PETA heart happy, trees to hug (my peach trees are starting to bloom), peace and quiet (except for a rooster that is confused about daylight savings).

terra

Since when do Americans vote for or want a President in the White House that refuses to say the pledge of allegiance or honor the American flag?

That is enough to make me want to have his as* exported out of the USA. There is no question in my mind that he has his priorities fuc*ed up. Down with Obama!

Obama is not a true American if he cannot honor the American flag and what it stands for. He refused to the lapel pin of an American flag as well as refusing to put his right hand over his heart and recite the pledge of allegiance.

Clinton 08

"It may be that because I grew up here, I know instinctively how to blend in. I have had no problems like you seem to have had, despite being very much a liberal."

Oh, don't get me wrong... I generally get along with people and blend very well... If I didn't, I wouldn't have heard so much what people seem to think of me! :)

Actually, there's a tendency for some to assume I'm a conservative because they like me and have a notion 'liberals' are awful people. :)

Then you hear some of the horrible things they want to bond over or something.

" I can speak their language, and can usually sense if the conversation is moving to a controversial subject; then, I can usually avoid it."

Usually. It still isn't a comfortable place to be, though.

" Note that a Waffle House is no place to hold a controversial conversation, does brutal thing to the digestion! "

You think I started a controversial conversation? Nah, these guys were being pretty loud and wearing the regalia and all. They seem to like the German setting or something.

Johnny B. Goode,
Greetings...and yes Mama is hot! a hell of a swimmer...after all it is one of Her elements. ;P

Wolf, think about the Sword. It is created in fire and water...to us Pagan Ladies (thanks Arminius ; ) ) the sword is balance, energy and power...power that can cut if misused- the symbol of Kingship. Now how else should anyone lead? And the Lady in the Lake? Who else can give or take Kingship but Mama. Myth tells a deeper story...but we talked about that on the last question.

You know one of the best versions of King Arthur, The Myst of Avalon, was written by Marion Zimmer Bradley, a Wiccan. It really is a beautiful story told from the Pagan side of things. Worth getting.

As far as Obama's policies...I agree with them. The people adviseing him?
Mark Alexander

Alexander is the Policy Director for the Obama campaign. He is currently on leave from his position as a Professor of Law at Seton Hall University School of Law.

Cassandra Butts
Butts is an advisor to the Obama campaign on domestic policy and has been a long-time friend of and advisor to Senator Obama since they were classmates at Harvard Law School. She was a senior advisor to Rep. Richard A. Gephardt (D-MO) and served as the policy director on his 2004 presidential campaign, which included formulating a universal health care plan.

Judith A. Gold

Judy Gold is the Chair of the Obama campaign's Policy Committee on Women's Issues. She is a partner at Perkins Coie, a private law practice, and has devoted herself to women's advocacy and philanthropy. In addition to her work in political law, private equity, and real estate, she served in Mayor Daley's cabinet as the Chief of Policy. She currently serves on the Advisory Council for the Women's Business Development Center, the Alumni Council of the Chicago Foundation for Women, and the Board of Mother Jones magazine. Previously, Judy was Chair of the Illinois Commission of the Status of Women for 5 years, served on the Illinois State Board of Education, and worked in the White House Office of Women's Initiatives and Outreach. She earned her bachelor's degree from the University of Michigan in 1986 and her law degree from the University of Chicago Law School in 1989. She resides in Chicago with her husband and two small children.

Austan Goolsbee

Goolsbee is the Senior Economic Advisor to the Obama campaign. He is a professor of economics at the University of Chicago and a Fulbright Scholar. The Financial Times named him one of the six Gurus of the Future/Best Under 40 in 2005, and the World Economic Forum in Switzerland chose him one as one of the 2005 Young Global Leaders. He received his Master's Degree in Economics from Yale in 1991 and his Ph.D. in the same subject in 1995 from Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Daniel K Tarullo

Tarullo is the Co-Chair of the Obama campaign's Economy, Globalization and Trade Policy Committee. He is also a Professor of Law at the Georgetown University Law Center and a non-resident senior fellow at the Center for American Progress. During the Clinton Administration he was, successively, Assistant Secretary of State for Economic Affairs, Deputy Assistant to the President for Economic Policy, and Assistant to the President for International Economic Policy.

Howard Learner

Learner advises the Obama campaign on environmental and renewable energy issues. He is an experienced attorney serving as the Executive Director of the Midwest's leading public interest environmental and sustainable development organization. He previously served as the General Counsel of Business and Professional People for the Public Interest, a public interest law center, specializing in complex civil litigation and policy development.

Samantha Power

Power is a close foreign policy advisor to Sen. Obama. She is a professor of Practice of Global Leadership and Public Policy at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. Her book A Problem from Hell: America and the Age of Genocide was awarded the 2003 Pulitzer Prize for general nonfiction, the 2003 National Book Critics Circle Award for general nonfiction, and the Council on Foreign Relations' Arthur Ross Prize for the best book in U.S. foreign policy.
Jason Grumet

Grumet is the Chair of the Obama campaign's Environment and Energy Policy Committee. He has lead several non-profit and policy organizations focusing on environmental and energy issues and is frequently called to testify before Congress on climate change, global warming, bio-fuels and energy security matters. He received a B.A. in Environmental Studies from Brown University and a J.D. from Harvard University.

Johnny and Arminius, I am an old Pagan Lady, I remember the 60's..the assassionations of JFK and Bobby...MLK, the Freedom Buses, the marches, the sit in's and the love in's. I remember the riots in 1968 in Baltimore...and the riots in Chicago at the Dem Convention.

I marched and I sat in, i even burned my bra! lol. I was a flower child..lol. I even remember Woodstock! Janis Joplin and Jimmi Hendrix!

terra

TO ALL GOOD HUMATE KiND(s), not HUMAN-Un-Kinds!

TO ALL GOOD HUMATE KiND(s), not HUMAN-Un-Kinds!

TO ALL GOOD HUMATE KiND(s), not HUMAN-Un-Kinds!

TO ALL GOOD HUMATE KiND(s), not HUMAN-Un-Kinds!

TO ALL GOOD HUMATE KiND(s), not HUMAN-Un-Kinds!

Paganplace,

Well, you exhaust me. I struggle with where to begin.

It may be that because I grew up here, I know instinctively how to blend in. I have had no problems like you seem to have had, despite being very much a liberal. I can speak their language, and can usually sense if the conversation is moving to a controversial subject; then, I can usually avoid it. Note that a Waffle House is no place to hold a controversial conversation, does brutal thing to the digestion! Getting one's message across is usually an incremental thing, planting seeds rather than a full-blown frontal assault. I try, horrendously imperfectly, to carry my message across by how I act and live instead of what I might say. I have learned the hard way to watch what I say - not to cave in, but to approach the subject carefully from another angle.

Damn, I hope I'm making sense.

Arminius

Please be advised all you posters that do not know JJ's past - he is a self-declared ex-con that has done federal time with his fellow ex-con, mentor and alleged divine avatar, one Harry Thereault - the creator of the ECLAT religion that we've seen depicted here hundreds if not thousands of times. While Harry has been out since 1994, we're not so sure about JJ.......

Do not accuse old posters of rushing to judgement when you know not whereof you speak. Spend a few months on this blog before speaking authoritatively about it's past posting history.

JJ is also perfectly capable of posting sane remarks, which he has done (anonymously) as a rebuttal to my previous recommendation that he get a job - he is perfectly sane, but nevertheless disturbed. He enjoys conflict immensely.

There is a big difference between mental illness and personality disorder - the latter applies in this case.

"Well, welcome to the South, and enjoy the biscuits and gravy! Also be sure to visit a Waffle House for breakfast any time. The steak and eggs, with hash browns in multiple configurations, is especially good."

Suppose they are, but when I was in Texas, the local one was where yer white supremacists hung out, and it was actually kinda-threateningly-evangelical in there. Is where I first had grits, though. Nice waitresses not being treated so well. We pumped the jukebox with quarters and had it play the owner's wife's delightfully-*surreal* songs about waffles over and over (hoping this would make the nasty people go away for the waitresses) and didn't go back.

" The waitresses there are unfailingly friendly. So, in my experience, are the customers. It is a microcosm of the best the South has to offer. And yes, Y'all is perfectly good. Your version should work, however."

Well, I do love my breakfast food. Turns out, apparently, that the chain's a big supporter of some things I'd prefer not to pay them to do to me, and I prefer to patronize small business, anyway, but we'll see. I know 'The South' and Texas are quite different, and you'll hear that quite vociferously from residents of both. (I think that's what the big deal about y'all' had to do with it, anyway. ):)

"Well, the South is contradictory. So are other places. But it is pretty damn friendly. But other places are too."

Can be, at least as people with a tendency to prefer to believe you're a baby-sacrificing monster secretly conspiring with their own Satan (as opposed to the more prosaic tree-hugging reality) go. :)

Strange place in a lot of ways, Texas: where you can have gentlemen gallantly hold the door for you and offer to protect you with extreme violence from the horrible people they imagine your friends (and, unknowingly, you,) are. :)

I think in the South at large, they have less of a way of gregariously-intrusively asking questions they don't want to hear the answers to, though. :) Fact is, with all the hateful rhetoric of the last decade or so, going down there really wouldn't be my first choice in a lot of ways.

Personally, I like the open friendliness, just always have to watch how deep it goes and how conditional it may be. ...you hear a lot of voices from down there saying 'Librul' in the same tone as 'needs killin'' just lately.

Which I think is one of the promises of a unifying campaign: good Americans shouldn't be afraid of each other like that. These fears are an illusion spun by certain people, and they only have as much power as someone gives em. :)

"You lost me with the "Waitresses always seemed to have some serious face-of-the-Goddess stuff happening" comment. Could you elaborate please?"

Ah, well, the hospitality thing tends to come through like a good family restauraunt, folks who seem genuinely glad to be handing out food to weary travellers and the like. It's one of our favorite aspects of the Goddess, that way, (and for some, the sentiments you mentioned yourself, as well, though I was thinking of the more 'motherly' and hearth-related part.)

Pagans tend to see the Gods coming through in other people, you see. Tells us how our Mama is. :)

Anonymous,
Obama is smart...and many people because they are smart but are troubled, tried drugs. The smart thing was he stopped and became the President of the Harvard Law Review...But he stopped a long time before Harvard...

Before Mr. Obama enrolled at Harvard, he earned a bachelor's degree in political science from Columbia University in 1983 and worked as a community organizer for a church-based group in Chicago. After earning his law degree, in 1991, he returned to Chicago, where he practiced civil-rights law before winning a seat in the Illinois State Senate, serving for eight years. He was elected to the U.S. Senate in 2004. In fact, he has worked in college classrooms, serving since 1993 as a senior lecturer on constitutional law at the University of Chicago (he is now on leave from that job).

Now, contemplate George Bush...That man never did get right walking and thinking at the same time.

Oh and as far as his religion...as if it matters, while his Father was born in a place that is Muslim, he was an atheist, and his mother and grandparents were not particularly religious, he is Christian. He never was Muslim.

You know when you get emails that give you information...check out that there is a name attached. And if you are slandering a man, at least use your name..Anonymous.

terra

Johnny B. Goode:

Hail and Well Met Indeed!

We seem to have a bit of the past in common, along with some of the present, perhaps.

Ah, Excalibur. Be careful! I have conversed with the Pagan Ladies here for some time, and let me warn you - if you try to take back the Sword in the Stone by force, you will be in a World of Hurt!!! These girls are formidable! And I love them all.

America in the '60s. What a time, full of joy, anger, disaster, and some truly excellent music. I lost my political virginity in 1963, with the assassination of JFK. Remember it as of yesterday, America coming to a total halt for three days of agonized mourning... and the madmen were still there, five years later... and they are undoubtedly still here.

Arminius

Cheap shots, but I wouldn't have expected less. if the goal is to eradicate you are with millimeters.

Never, never, assume anything, always ask and clarify. However, I dislike the company. love is at the end ready to go as well. Job well done.

Blocked calls from new employer so patients can't get number, care for uninsured, needed protection so pts not always call. head nurse f/t, working with group of 50-60 doctors, working out logistics of paid compensation benefits, so on so forth.

But who cares anyway, JJ deserves a break, at least well received and welcomed, they care, and you do not, I know now.

THE WOLF:
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."

You're absolutely wrong. As soon as I get my hands on Excalibur again, I'll rule the world. It was tough enough getting it out of the stone, but now that that Wiccan goddess got her hands on it, I've endured nothing but frustration in my attempts to get it back. She's a hot mama, though, I'll give her that, and a hell of a swimmer.

ARMINIUS:
All hail and well met!

Y'ALL:
Whether or not you support Barack Obama, it is marvelously refreshing to those of us who are old enough to remember Jim Crow to realize that the good ship America is finally on a different tack. Michelle ma Belle (sont les mots qui vents tres bien ensemble) may not have expressed herself well, but I heartily agree with her sentiments. Those of us on the barricades in the 60's had hope snatched away from us by the Gestapo state. (If you weren't there, you have no idea how we were going to change the world. If you can remember being there, you weren't.) I lost my naivete when the government killed four students at Kent State with impunity. I'm willing to risk hope again.

"I Think you´re right, Starhawk, we need healing and hope, but it seems to me that Barack Obama,
is not the right one."

Stelios Korovilas, frm Germany

Amen, and Amen. I couln't agree with you more.

Gods, Johnny B, don't even say it!

It's fortunate that political assassination is such an unpredictable tool in a mass-media age, ...not something that certain interests will want to use when they can Swiftboat someone instead: you can't do voter-suppression on the basis of claims a martyr intended to raise your taxes.

There's plenty of stoked-up crazies, though, and that's a worry. Best left there.

Priver wrote, " Obama is incredibly smart."

Smart about what??? Did he all of a sudden become smart as an adult or haven't you read his book "Audacity of Hope."

Anyone that uses cocaine as a method to cope is not smart, anyone who has strong alliances with known criminals is not smart, anyone who lies about there're affiliation with known criminal on national TV during a debate is not smart. Anyone who flip-flops between religious beliefs to pacify a certain audience is not smart.

Please if you are going to give credit give it where it is due. Next……………

You really need some good professional moderation here--this comments page is a mess.

Rather than Jeanne d'Arc, why not Galadriel, if we're going to go with popular images? But I wonder if Hilary Clinton's image isn't, really, pretty close to who she is. Obama, on the other hand, is showing people the image of their dreams. Well...one's self is an endlessly popular subject. But in the end, the image of our dreams cannot govern; if Obama wins, he will govern, and he cannot give everyone what they want, so a lot of us are going to be very unhappy, but Obama will still be President--"Only one hand can wield the ring". If he governs by his stated policies, with the advisers he is currently relying on, we are going to be very unhappy indeed.

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."

Paganplace,

Well, welcome to the South, and enjoy the biscuits and gravy! Also be sure to visit a Waffle House for breakfast any time. The steak and eggs, with hash browns in multiple configurations, is especially good. The waitresses there are unfailingly friendly. So, in my experience, are the customers. It is a microcosm of the best the South has to offer. And yes, Y'all is perfectly good. Your version should work, however.

Well, the South is contradictory. So are other places. But it is pretty damn friendly. But other places are too.

You lost me with the "Waitresses always seemed to have some serious face-of-the-Goddess stuff happening" comment. Could you elaborate please?

Arminius

There's certainly no flies on the diners in the South, that's for certain. Last time I was through the region, it made me miss the way donut shops used to be in Boston before the chains took over and took away the counter service.

Going to be spending some time down there again, soon, it looks like, on a longer-term basis.

Certain scary elements about it, but by the time I end up letting slip a 'Great Mother, but it's a sauna out here' in the wrong company, I'll probably be in the process of keeling over, anyway. Gonna be finishing a winter in one of the coldest parts of America and be in the South around Beltane. I'll be like, "I could see you folks dancing Maypoles... Real.... Slow... :)"

And after all the trouble my friends in Texas went to to teach me how to say 'y'all' properly for there. Maybe this time I'll stick to 'Alla'yahs.' :)

Good folks in those diners, though. I really developed an instant affection for the biscuits and gravy, too. :)

I've always found the South a little contradictory, ...a lot of sincerely-friendly people who talk like they're about ready to let loose with some unhallowed screaming bugf*ahem* if you say the wrong thing. :)

Waitresses always seemed to have some serious face-of-the-Goddess stuff happening, though. Or is that cause they bring the biscuits. :)

Johnny B. Goode:

Re Worst Case Scenario. That has occurred to me also, and it is truly the stuff of nightmares. I remember JFK, RFK, MLK, all too well. The pain is still there. If your scenario happens, it will make the agony of the '60s look like a preschool sandbox fight. God help us.

Arminius

Levent, Levent, Levent,

Maybe Ataturk's great grandchildren can finish the job of eliminating Islam from Turkey and the surrounding regions???

CHILLING WORST CASE SCENARIO:

This possibility bothers more than a few.

Barack Obama is assassinated. Radical Islamic extremists are blamed. King George declares martial law, disallows elections or annoints John McCain. Muslims and all dissidents are rounded up and taken to the huge holding areas already in place, constructed by FEMA.

The United States goes up in flames. The world descends into hell in a heartbeat.

Crazy? Has anybody here seen my old friend John? Can you tell me where he's gone? JFK RFK MLK THAT was crazy.

Remember that it was only 3 days after Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated by a Serbian national that the whole world was plunged into WWI. Serbians are now angry about losing Kosovo, traditionally and historically their land, and their main ally is Russia, which is none too thrilled with America placing first strike missiles in Poland and Czechoslovaka, and siphoning off oil from the Caspian Sea.

It's like fast-acting cancer. You think it's just a local cyst, then the whole body goes belly up.

Keep on your toes, sports fans, plans are afoot by nefarious groups in high places.

Johnny B. Goode:

Well, I think that myths can be allegorical. If I am wrong, please correct me.

By the way, I recall another post you made, I think on another thread. Your experience in the Jim Crow days brought back a memory - in 1954, when Brown vs Board of Education happened, I remember as if it were yesterday. My peer group was largely outraged, being forced to go to school with 'N-Words'. My reaction was "Huh? What's the problem?". I did not understand it then, and I still don't.

Arminius

@ 2:51PM

Your a Faggit-Arino and More Closet stuff!

ARMINIUS:

"Despite the statement in OT mythology about man having dominion over all of Creation..."

This is the first time we disagree (I died as J.S. and resurrected as Johnny B. Goode). The Old Testament is not mythological, it is allegorical.

But, you are absolutely right about dominion being misconstrued as the right to rape, pillage and plunder the earth. There is a scripture somewhere that says God will destroy those who think to destroy the earth. (I don't have a Strong's concordance or Bible with me at the moment.)

Thanks for the kind words, Paganplace. Yeah, I'm kinda caught in the middle of the culture war. But I am determined to stand to my guns, as the expression goes.

'Hows yar mama?' Say what? That's a new one on me, but I don't live in Louisiana. You don't here that in Georgia or Tennessee, the two Southern states I am most familiar with. One does not normally inquire about family unless you know them. But what does happen here is really something. You can walk into a restaurant (not an upper tier one), or especially a cafeteria, and the waitress will pleasantly ask you, 'Whatcha want, honey?'. If that waitress is good looking, I, even at my advanced age, have to bite my tongue and try to place my order politely.... God, but I love the South!

Arminius

Yeah, Anonymous. Though I think JJ is just circumventing the moderators to continue spamming.

I don't even *know* what this Levant guy is trying to get at. :)

Anyone taking bets on where Concerned reincarnates next? :)

"Hows yar mama? as they say in these parts of Louisiana. Now how many places are there where all you meet may not know your mama, but care anyway?"

Ah, I think they have similar expressions in parts of Ireland... back East, asking after someone's family usually seems to be an affirmation that one's on knowing-someone's-family terms, which can be (unfortunately, in most cases) pretty rare in these more shiftless times.

And, my mother seems to be doing fine, thanks, Terra. (Is one supposed to answer that, or ask in return? :) Could be useful in my upcoming travels. Love meeting the different parts of American culture: in this case with hope I don't get lynched: last time I was through the area, times were less-polarized. :) )

Anyway, Arminius, I think you have the right of it, anyway. Christians who are centered on the positive stuff in what's actually attributed to your Jesus tend to be good friends and neighbors, generally. I don't envy your positioning in this 'culture war' thing, but I'm rooting for you.

You know, speaking of my mama, well my mother being Catholic and all, the divisions and vitriol coming from the authorities and the zealots don't do her happiness any good. Not a few of my ancestors, I like to believe, worked hard to turn that stuff to the good: knowing me, I probably had a crack at it for a lifetime or three, and you do them credit, Arminius.

I'm kind of hoping Obama's popularity represents some of that effort having taken, after all, and among other things.

We've been hearing too much out of certain people claiming to be the patriotic ones that 'cultural civil war' is the only 'hope,' but their 'hope' looks like apocalyptic despair to me: selling out the future for a sense of control and scapegoats to blame.

I keep finding myself hearing Obama speak on television, and I think the best hope I see isn't even in the man himself. It's in the *audience.* :)

Levent, Levent, Levent,

Your constant gibberish is a result of Ataturk's failure to end Islam. I wonder if he has any great grandchildren that can finish the job?

i didnt know about Kryon and Crimson Circle and Lightworker. they may be related with Scientology

for many of us who were in Kryon and Crimson Circle groups. they are energies from planets and from the energy approaching to the world

i didnt know a second vocabulary then, and i explained in Turkish.

in Anatolia, we are interested in Planets, Angels, Masters and Saints. i didnt know about scientology till yesterday.

but i have been in the groups known with scientologs in Turkey. i have been moderator and author and explained the terms personally

i explained the terms of Kryon and Tobias into healed Turkish virtues and values. i wrote about Secret too, but i explained every thing in it

i didnt take money and wrote what i know and found in texts and books.

for this i have been investigated, my accounts were closed. i have been put in debt, mobile phones were heard,

but i didnt know why till yesterday

in the forum of Crimson Circle i wrote about planets and religions as i did here. all were wrting all over the world from planets and astronomy etc. there was not a word as "scientology" in the messages

here in these two years in WAshington Post, i was with colleagues and literaturists. and i freely and easily wrote messages from them and they were deleted immediately

now i know, i didnt know till yesterday.

to the President of Iran

you have asked about islamic car with four contries in. time is narrow, President of Iran, it is near now. do you have time to spend without delay, President of Iran?

and Finland is the end of the world, is Finland the end for you too?

I Think you´re right, Starhawk, we need healing and hope, but it seems to me that Barack Obama,
is not the right one.

Stelios Korovilas, from Germany

"Williams Bush is able to dance, he danced more than usual in Africa, he has not lost sense of rythme, i can prove this."

this is from a news about Williams Bush and Condaliza Rice.

"harmonic convertgenes" is from Harmonic Convergence.

in case the groups take spiritual guidance from saints and prophets (they are not dead and they are present today) all shall be better. let you be visited and let you communicate in magnetics.

did anybody see the body of Ahmet prophet? has there been an exhibition? has there been any medical check for the body of Ahmet prophet? where is His Hospital?

under the feet of mothers and wherever we humans step on Earth?

rythme rhythm rhythmus
rhyme and thymuse

Condaliza Rice has a GRay jacket
and tight pants with silver stripes

Her jacket has one button above her belly
and the jacket is a beautiful butterfly

for a month, Butterfly is in the sky of this city, Bursa
two stars in the left, two stars in the right and three stars in the center

she says Williams Bush is able to concentrate
and speak in rhymes and he has juiceful thymuse gland, he is healthy.

New York Philarmony has been in North Korea for a concert
Los Angeles is the New Jerusalem for Scottish Phoneician Native American Mediterranean Whisky MAn

Lafayette Hubbard is known with Change, as Obama speaks of.
Oprah Winfrey is known with Tom Cruise

HArmonic Convertgenes is after death of Hubbard, in 1987 till 2012
the central intelligence has canceled protection for Obama in the meetings

Lafayette sounds similar to Dodi El FAyed of Egypt Finland and LAdy Diana
Dustin Hoffman, John Travolta and Nicole Kidman are making movies

language is of the highest value for members of Scientology
Adolf Hitler was a painter and Cartoons of Sleeping Beauty in German belong to Hitler.

any leading group based on languages and dictionaries suffered one subject
they didnt heal as many as possible but tried to reach and access to every one to spread the word.

in stead of groups, i invite any one on Earth to unite any word and technique
for the growth of each of humanity on Earth. basicly, this is the intent of the groups

especially in the previous century, hollywood movies could not retrieve the virtues and moral values back
that the actors and actresses gave from their spirituality and flesh.

this is the vital point, also for the authors who write in public
particularly those who write virtues and moral values in public with literature and signs.

especially in religious publics, the actors and actresses were captured
and they must take themselves back. these are sometimes the vital veins.

and they want religions canceled or healed.

Arminius,

We all go out on a limb when we open ourselves. But how else do you let others in?

Paganplace,Wiccan...all...

Hows yar mama? as they say in these parts of Louisiana. Now how many places are there where all you meet may not know your mama, but care anyway?

Hows yar mama?
terra

http://web.splashcast.net/web_watch/?code=FKOH2857KH

"Hillary Speaks For Me"

Hi, Paganplace, I'm waving back, thanks!

I, a Christian, claim a bond with the Wiccans and other Pagans. Their insight that all of Creation is bound together rings true with me. And since it must all be respected, then we must all respect and value each other.

This relates directly with Christianity if you view it through the Gospels. Despite the statement in OT mythology about man having dominion over all of Creation, it is implicit in the teachings of Jesus that, because we must love all of mankind as we love ourselves, we must also love all of creation. Thus, we do not have dominion, we have stewardship. We are not looters, we are caretakers of what has been given to us. And what has been given to us includes each other. So often we forget that.

Gone out on a limb here, I have. Not the first time. Not the last.

Rambled too much. Good night, all my friends here.

Arminius

*waving to Henry and Arminius and Terra and Wiccan and all. :) *

I think we're all very proud of Starhawk, not that we make it easy. We've got, err, high standards, and that's *before* anyone comes along trying to pick apart anything we say for the usual purposes.

And, I think that's a really important thing Terra mentioned... The fact we're all in this together... all interconnected is something I think most Wiccans well-know... Sometimes, though, it doesn't *feel* like many others *want* to be. I find it really heartening just to *see* the acclaim Senator Obama gets, just *on* the message.

Conservatives say, 'Don't trust him,' ...voter depression tactics, maybe.

I say, "Heck with that, there's like two hundred million of us. *Hold him to it.* :) "

jacob

you are a pollutant. stop it.

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

Wise man, that Ben.

Wiccan and Terra,

Wiccan, thanks for bringing that to my attention, Terra's sentence "I want a feeling of all of us being invested in the rest of us." Terra, that statement is something else indeed. I noticed it the first time, but Wiccan graciously reminded me of its significance. Damn, I can believe in that. We are all in this together, even if we live in separate groups.

Arminius

Terra:

"I want a feeling of all of us being invested in the rest of us."

How did I miss that sentence before? Because the second time I read it I got chills. Yes, Yes YES!

Hi, Henry, my favorite ghost,

It most certainly is correct that it has never been written that a Wiccan columnist must be unfailingly perfect. Well, once again, the written word has screwed up. It is a joy in a life full of dismal clouds to read her beautiful and reassuring words.

I think that Starhawk got the core of Obama at the head of her essay. He does not say 'I will do it', he says 'WE will do it', and he does not mean that 'we' is any party, any ideology, any whatever except the American people. That inspires me.

Arminius

where does it say that Wiccan columnists have to be unfailingly perfect? And how does Starhawk do it?

The simple most important factor in any Presidency, obamas or anyones, will be the people thinking the right kind of change is possible and then demanding it. obama makes that his starting point, and that is BOTH powerful and true. He IS NOT the Messiah. We aren't likely to get one in the next 30,000 years. But he is a new direction, which does indeed carry SOME hope, because of his respect for his fellow humans.

love to you terra and amrinius and pagan.

Henri

Terra,

I am sure that on election day, I will go to my polling place, and if Billary is on the ticket instead of Obama, will put my 'X' beside her/their name. But, damnit, I almost always vote against, instead of for. It would be a gigantic thrill to this old man to vote FOR somebody like Obama for a change!

Aaaarrrrrgh.

Arminius

Arminis,
I know..
Well if Hillary wins the nod, I will vote for her. No matter what, she will get somethings done we need..and can we really afford more of the same?

I think Hillary is second best...but right now I am so fed up with what we have, put a big D on my cat and he has my vote. In fact at least he is good at getting rid of rats, and he is a fine, handsome cat.

All the folks that post messenges about not knowing Obama's accomplishments, which means they have not been paying attention, and are simply lazy. They would rather gripe then do a moment of research. Each candidate has a website. Obama's is one of the best and has, in detail, his plans.
www.barackobama.com/issues

terra

Terra,

I am in agreement. It would seem that the brave maverick of 2000, that I would have voted for, is not the same person that is running in 2008. He has indeed pandered, almost prostituted himself. I do honestly wonder if he just bit his tongue and did it, thinking that he could turn it around if he got to the oval office. But if he did get there, and tried to turn it around, it would come back to bite him in the butt bigtime.

Obama gives me hope. He will get my vote, if nominated. If Billary gets the nomination, I don't know what the hell I will do.

Arminius

Wiccan,
I hope so. I would like to think that his real self would have kept that straight talk.

But it was Bush's dirty tricks that took that win from McCain...and he kissed Bush. He knew what Bush did and he pandered to him, instead of being that hero.

I don't know. I want to have faith in people..but when do we cross the line into foolishness?

terra

Starhawk,

Kudo's and blessings...it is past time we saw your words again, I was feeling like I was in the netherlands here..nothing I really felt connected to; welcome back.

The vernal equinox is a month away, the time of promise...the time when we honor the renewal of the growing time. That is how I feel about Obama. Oh I like Hillary, she would make a policy driven president...but this country would remain split and divided. I am tired of that, I am tired of the anger, fear and heavy handedness of the other side because of their hate. We can not stand more of that, We will lose democracy. We will be spoon fed fear of others again.

I want a feeling of all of us being invested in the rest of us. Obama gives me that.

terra

Terra, I agree with you. His support for the war and his kissing of the fundies' butts has chilled any warmness I had for him. But had he been elected eight years ago, I think that the crucible that melted George would have purified him.

Wiccan,
I really do hate to disagree with you, but McCain is pandering. His Straight Talk Express is in the roundhouse..laid up until he can afford to anger his party again.

His connection with the Keating Five..his portraying himself as a fighter against ear marks and lobbist and he has 59 of them running his campaign.

I used to have a great deal of respect for him..he has reached across the aisle with friendship to get things done. But he was against torture until he met with Bush and got that hug...then he voted the way Bush wanted. He was against the tax cut for the rich until he started running for president...now he wants to make it permanent. He says iraq could last 100 years...and then there is Iran..Bomb Bomb Iran...

No, Mccain is not that person we need..not now. We need healing, not killing, peace and education not war and more of the same.

Another thing...he was not alone as a POW. He was not the only one shot down in Nam, not the only one tortured. I wonder how many of those vets are on the street? What has he done about that?

Blessings,
terra

Dia duit, Arminius!

How I wish that McCain had been the 2000 Republican candidate. How much better these last eight years would have been. But such was not to be, and, if I read the signs right, such will not come to be in the 2008 election. The American public has had six years to see what evils come from one-party rule (and no, I don't think the Democrats would have comported themselves any better).

Here's my prediction for 2008 and beyond: Obama will win by a narrow but uncontestable margin, with the Senate and Congress barely Democratic. BUT, in two years Americans will return a Republican Congress, albeit also barely. Having survived the worst of one-party rule, I don't think Americans are willing to go through that again.

I hope McCain will stretch out his hand to Obama; both have the chance to become statesmen, not partymen.

Dia duit, Arminius!

How I wish that McCain had been the 2000 Republican candidate. How much better these last eight years would have been. But such was not to be, and, if I read the signs right, such will not come to be in the 2008 election. The American public has had six years to see what evils come from one-party rule (and no, I don't think the Democrats would have comported themselves any better).

Here's my prediction for 2008 and beyond: Obama will win by a narrow but uncontestable margin, with the Senate and Congress barely Democratic. BUT, in two years Americans will return a Republican Congress, albeit also barely. Having survived the worst of one-party rule, I don't think Americans are willing to go through that again.

I hope McCain will stretch out his hand to Obama; both have the chance to beome statesmen, not partymen.

To those whining about Obama's lack of experience:

The president with the least experience was probably Abraham Lincoln, who had only one term in the House.

The president with the most experience may well have been his predecessor, James Buchanan, now considered to have been one of our worst presidents.

Go figure.

Arminius

Hi Wiccan,

God knows McCain has his faults. But he does have one thing in common with Obama: the ability to extend a hand across the aisle. When asked point-blank about this, to his credit he said, "I do it so I can get something done". This, of course, has the Republican right frothing at the mouth and getting out their voodoo dolls; to them, a Republican should never even talk to a Democrat, except maybe to say, in the words of Cheney, which he said to a Democrat senator in the senate chamber: 'F*** you'. In other words, the Republican right does not want a democracy, but an oligarchy. Or worse.

By the way, it's 'Darth Dubya'. Cheney is the Emperor. And also, as the saying goes: 'Frodo has failed! Bush has the ring!'

Arminius

Insightful column, there.

Really, the accusation that Obama 'speaks well, therefore must not have substance, even if he does' is kind of an interesting tack for conservatives to take, considering they were insisting that men of obvious substance like Kerry and Gore lacked necessary magnetism and were dry and boring... then using things too-boring-to-check on to keep Swiftboating them.

And, Concerned, the fact his religion may be 'flawed' is of little concern to me when he respects the existence and viewpoints of others and seeks to govern in a secular manner.

It's the people who claim their beliefs are 'perfect and unquestionable and must rule' that make any 'flaws' my concern.

The Religious Right's candidates have had enough time to appeal to the worst in people, all the while blaming the liberals and the rest of the world for the fact that the effects of their actions can't be justified by dressing up a spoiled Connecticut rich kid in a cowboy hat and calling him 'likable and moral.'

Starhawk's right, I'm afraid. Hard times could be coming as a result of all this. More denial and well-nigh-apocalyptic helplessness is *not* going to make it easier.

Calling Democrats 'tax and spend' while Republicans 'borrow and spend' trillions feeding the fatcats and pursuing ill-advised foreign wars, while the infrastructure declines, and moving so much of our manufacturing and real production overseas to countries they've *alienated* while suppressing and delaying all conservation and green tech they can... Guess what.

People don't believe you anymore.

And it's about time.

You've spent eight years defending a President with a *history* of *actually screwing up one business after another and getting handed another one by rich family and Saudi sheiks...

Saying that being a born-again Christian makes it all OK...

Then start saying a bright young Senator you can't misconstrue the record of isn't 'accomplished' enough in the legislature.

As Obama himself says, we're not short of good ideas, but Washington's become where good ideas go to die.

This one *is* about leadership skills, character, judgement, and, yes, human inspiration.

Consider me inspired.

Here's the primary difference between the two main political parties:

The Democrats say, "Tax and spend, tax and spend, tax and spend."

The Republicans disagree, saying, "Borrow and spend, borrow and spend, borrow and spend."

Thanks, Starhawk, for a well-written article. Although Obama was not my first choice, he was ultimately who I voted for. I think that he represents an entirely new face of America - one that is multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, and breaks down those barriers that divide us. I still don't like a lot of his "God Talk", but I realize that it comes from the African-American spiritual tradition.

As for "liberals foaming at the mouth to tax and regulate things" - um... what has come of the past few years of deregulation and cutting revenues?

- multi-trillion dollar deficits that our grandchildren won't be able to pay off
- tainted human and pet food products because inspectors are seen as "too much regulation"
- lead in toys, for the same reason;
- our roads and bridges collapsing because there's not enough money to inspect and repair them;
- lack of oversight on where the money we're spending in Iraq is actually going;
- an air traffic control system that is horribly out of date, but we can't repair
- rolling blackouts because of our antiquated electrical grid
- houses being foreclosed on because of the mortgage crisis caused by deregulation
- Much of the Gulf Coast still in ruins

But hey, let's keep those taxes low and deregulate everything! Government bad, business good!

GaryD - spare yourself some embarrassment.

You typify everything about backwards-thinking republican fundamentalists that only helps drive
Obama's campaign - those 'liberal' leftist elitists are about to have a field day at your expense and about time.

What goes around comes around - 'everything has a season ..... turn, turn, turn' - a good lesson from Pete Seeger by way of the Byrds & inspired by your very own bible.

Relax, you might even like the change, for a change.

PLEASE!!!!

DO NOT Qoute ANYTHING from WIKIPEDIA because you have JUST LOST YOUR ARGUMENT about OBAMA!

Anybody that can quote and post anything that Wikipedia says is delusional if they believe all that it says. Any one of us on-line can change it to say what ever we/they want it to say at this very moment. I thought by now people would be on to that unreliable source.

GaryD, will you please stop hypervenilating? Great Goddess, man, the only thing McCain is offering is four more years of the same "us vs them" we've suffered from these past eight years, where "them" are the terrorists or the Democrats, both equal in the eyes of King George. The Republicans took a tragedy and prostituted it for political gain, defaming anyone who opposed their simple "black vs white" worldview. Please step out of your bunker and take a good look around. The desire for change is palpable. I want a president who will call out the best in me, not the worst. I want to hope again, not "be afraid, be very afraid", as Darth Cheney warns. I'm willing to work and sacrifice to make America great once again; are you?

P.S.

There are far worse things than taxes.

Starhawk you give proof to the statement that a modern pagan is a walking oxymoron. Good Lord man the only thing New Obama offers to anyone is more palatable rhetoric with which to launch class warfare, If, of course, one omits the slip up in Houston where he returned to the normal Democratic foaming at the mouth leftist who thinks we ought to tax it if moves regulate it if it still moves and then keep taxing it till it finally dies. If you think that bilge is good for the country you are seriously delusional.

Starhawk,

Yours is a remarkably well-written, well-reasoned commentary. You should consider becoming a speech writer. You are inspiring.

"Any port in a storm," is the most apt adage in the political arena. We've been to McCain's harbor, full of bristling war ships champing at the bit to kill and conquer. We've been in the smug harbor of the Clintons, reeking with sexual perversion, complacent elitism, and unbridled egotism.

We are left, then, with a new harbor, unknown, untested, but full of promise: Hope Harbor for the good ship America, battered upon the turbulent seas of cynicism and war.

BTW Joan of Arc was as mad as a hatter.

When Obama et al finally admit to the flaws in Christianity (and all religions), then I will listen.

With the media twisting Hillary's messages - it doesn't matter what she says they will still project it as a wrong. It will be better if we get the facts about Obama and Hillary here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama

and here for Hillary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton

Beware that media reporters are not reporting news. Sadly, they are reporting their own opinions.

I agree - Obama is by far the best salesman in the bunch. He remains a mysterious man, and that is part of his charm. I won't be the least bit surprised to see him elected. On the other hand,
that's when the real work starts - in order to get re-elected he will need to live up to his promise and also to some mighty high expectations.

He will probably be held to a much higher standard than GWB ever was - in fact with Bush one wonders if he has any real accomplishments whatsoever in the win column.

The media has given Bush a pass for nearly 8 years and is working hard at giving McCain the same continuous benefit of the doubt (although this recent 'conflict of interest' dust up and outright lying about it on the record might sink his ship before it sails).

Perhaps people are equating hope with the unknown, which at this point is Obama's stock in trade. On the other hand, his (generally) liberal voting record has great appeal to many and to me as well. This is exactly what the GOP will go after when it gets down and dirty - typical 'fear and smear' tactics that we've come to expect from that party.

There is no question the country needs a change of direction in all ways. Only time will tell whether Obama is the real thing, or merely a consummate politician that is particularly adept at reading which way the wind blows.

The unknown may indeed be our best choice at this moment in time -

I found the beef,

instead of trying to spread liars please just take the time to go to his website and read more about him. Here is a link to some of his accomplishments. Also, just to let you know, his a push more than 500 Bills...
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/21/164117/783/290/461422

Obama is incredibly smart. He has run a great campaign based on bringing out the best in people. After the last 10 years or so we don't have much to believe in. What used to be belief in the ideals of freedom and the promise of America around the world has been damaged, badly.

Americans are smart enough to begin to realize the damage that has been done, and need someone to tell them that America can be again what it once was. Obama is filling that role, for better or worse. And doing it well.

Democracy only works if the people believe it does. To get cynical allows for.. well.. presidents like the current one. Who trash the Constitution and divide their own people and turn neighbor against neighbor in search of some vague person called 'terrorist'. It used to be 'communist' back in the day.

The more things change, the more they stay the same, it seems.

I'm voting for Obama actually not because of his rhetoric. I'm voting for him because I'm tired of war, partisanship and hating my neighbors. I'm tired of being the world's biggest bully. I want things to actually get done- and from what I've studied of his record, he actually has a record of working with the other side to draft important legislation, like ethics reform and nonproliferation. He respects people and listens to them even if he disagrees with them, and makes negotiations when he needs to in order to make things happen.

Obama speaks what he thinks that the people want to hear, nothing more. He is like any other phony, they all have the same attributes, lie, lie, and lie again. Then they take advantage of you when they think they have you downtrodden and under there’re foot. PHONY LIARS, THERE IS NO TRUTH IN THEIR TYPE AND THEY ARE NOT TO BE TRUSTED.

A beutifully written Article.

I do agree that Obama's rehtoric is quite stirring. However I'm not exactly thrilled by his lack of experience and acomplishments. (That I am aware of, i'm more than happy to listen to any major acomplishments anyone brings up but I've not seen anything really outstanding on his record.)

Though I'm not thrilled by any of the candidates on any side of the fence this go 'round.