A Pagan's Christmas Resolution

the funny thing is that you keep espousing the Unmoved mover as your proof that somehow Aristotle's god and yours are the same. In fact, they are not.

Aristotle's god discounts any god that has been written about or described as any one that is involved with the planet or it's inhabitants. That includes the ones put forth by the bible, the koran or any other holy scripture. it's based on the god of nature.. which incidentally is far closer to that of actual Pagans.

Plus, it's based on scientific errors that even a telescope would have picked up on.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
ANONYMOUS:
“Once again, using your book and a serious misunderstanding of what the Unmoved Mover is about does not prove your case. Unmoved mover doesn't justify ANYTHING in the bible."

ANS:
To the contrary, the Unmoved Mover justifies many things. One, it shows there is only one God and refutes polytheism. Second, the Unmoved Mover demonstrates God created the Universe. Both are confirmed by Scripture. This shows that Scripture is in consonance with right reason; therefore, it is not irrational. Moreover, it is a manifestation that man is created by God, again a precept of Sacred Scripture.

Moreover, Aristotle affirms that man is an eternal being through his theories on knowledge and that contradicts the atheists and materialists. In addition, his theory is in concordance with Scripture that predicates man’s eternal destiny.

Further, Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics concludes that man’s eternal destination is eternal happiness, and that concurs with Sacred Scripture.

Consequently, since the Unmoved Mover postulates that God is a Simple Being, Pure Actuality, with no potency, we can deduce many of God’s attributes. We find He is All Loving, All Knowing, or Omniscient, All Powerful, or Omnipotent, All Present, or Omnipresent, and that God is by necessity Prescient, knows the future, because he doesn’t exist in time, as Aristotle shows. That is in continuity with Scripture. Below is the link that shows how these attributes are discovered through reason and are in accordance with Scripture.

THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD:
http://www.newadvent.org/utility/search.htm?safe=active&cx=000299817191393086628%3Aifmbhlr-8x0&q=Gods+existence&sa=Search&cof=FORID%3A9#973

Aristotle’s proof of an Unmoved Mover is a very significant and important proof of God’s existence because so many things can be deducted from it by reason alone. Remarkably, these deductions are in consonance with the Scriptures of which Aristotle had not been privileged to, but found them through the manifestations of God’s creation irrespective of God's Revelation.

once again, using your book and a serious misunderstanding of what the Unmoved Mover is about does not prove your case.

Unmoved mover doesn't justify ANYTHING in the bible.

IN REPLY TO:
“Are we going to amend the Constitution in favor of Hera, Goddess of marriage, or Aphrodite, Goddess of unbridled love? Do we mandate the wild, ecstatic worship of the goat-god Pan, or the more sedate contemplation of Sophia, Goddess of wisdom?”

ANS:
Romans, “None of us lives as his own master, none of us dies as his own master.’ We do not decide when we come into this world or when we leave.” Thus, we must recognize the one true God who made us for himself. Hence, Jesus said, “I and the Father are one; from henceforth, you shall know Him. And you have seen Him.—John10: 30cf."

The Jews had no trouble knowing that there was one God. In the Ten Commandments, it is written, “I am the Lord your God; thou shalt not have strange gods before me.” “I am a consuming fire, a jealous God.” (De4: 24). “Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God. Because the Lord thy God is a jealous God in the midst of thee: lest at any time the wrath of the Lord thy God be kindled against thee, and take thee away from the face of the earth. (De 6:15).”

As shown previously, many gods do not exist. The one True Christian God does exist, and He is the one whose principles we follow. They are imbued in the Natural Moral Law, imbedded in human nature, revealed in man’s conscience, and the works of the Creator. They are available through reason and the revelations of the Creator to his Church.

(IRT)
”I’m also Jewish by birth and ancestry. Jews do have scripture, and we’ve been debating the fine points of its interpretation for two thousand years. So, whose interpretations do we mandate into law? Akiva or Hillel? Rambam? How far back do we go?”

ANS:
Mt 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldst not?”

God gave the Jews the prophets to interpret the Scriptures. Like all mankind, the Jews can believe the prophets or not. They killed some of the prophets. The Jews were promised a Redeemer. He came and they knew him not, and crucified Him.

Christ came and fulfilled the Old Testament establishing a new covenant. Some Jews refused to accept it and they lost the presence of God guiding them. Thus, it is written: Mt 5: 17. “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

As you have noticed, man is subject to error. Because of man’s fall from grace by the sin of Adam, man’s intellect is clouded by sin and is subject to error.

Thus, Jesus founded a Church to guide man and told his disciples to go and teach all nations the truths He had given them. Since Jesus, who is God is prescience and omniscient, and knowing man's subjection to error, He gave His Church the gift of infallibility in its teachings and doctrines so that man may have the certitude of his beliefs.

Thus, it is written:
Mt 28:20 “…and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely, I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Mt 10: 20
For it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.”

John 15:26-27
"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.”

Consequently, the Church has the true meaning of the Truth. Moreover, the Church is the guardian of the Natural Moral Law (NML) imbued in the “Ten Commandments.” The Ten Commandments are the foundation of the NML that is the basis for all Civil Laws. Thus, the Declaration of Independence, as does the Bill of Rights, implicitly and explicitly expound on the inalienable rights of man dictated by the Christian God and imbedded in His Scriptures and His Church.

IRT:
Should we revert to stoning, no interest, and Israel rule?

ANS:
Those things were the laws of the Old Covenant when God had to shepherd his sheep to protect them. The law governed the health of the Jewish people and established an adherence to God laws. The Scriptures applied to all man. Thus, Jesus said, "Go, and teach all anions."

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
"WHO’S GOD, WHOSE STANDARDS?"
“It’s all very well to propose amending the Constitution to be in line with ‘God’s standards’—the question is always, which God? What set of standards? And who gets to decide?”

ANS:
There can only be one true God. Many gods is an oxymoron, as shown by Aristotle’s proof of the Unmoved Mover, who is God. Moreover, there can be no differences in an Unmoved Mover because the Unmoved Mover in one in Actuality. God's essence is His existence. In composite beings, essence (the definition of a being) is separated from the existence. Namely, the essence isn’t in existence until it is given existence. Thus, we can design a car (essence), but it isn't real (exist) until it is actually made.

In addition, God has no potency; He is unmoved, the cause of all causes, the Creator. He created all things from nothing. He can have no differences simply because He is Pure Act, as Aristotle’s proof shows.

Hence, either a thing moves itself, or it is moved by another. That which moves itself, or is not caused, is what we call God, the Uncaused Cause.

That which does not cause itself is caused by another, and is a dependent being. Dependent beings depend on another to move them either in motion or from potency to act, from essence to existence, or from existence to no existence. However, God's essence is His existence. Therefore, God is not a dependent being.

Dependent beings are composites. Namely, they are composites of potency, and actuality. All composites depend on their parts. Dependent beings can’t be a self-sufficient being but God is a self-sufficient being. God is pure actuality without any potency. Therefore, pure actuality has no parts or potency and is simple being. However, multiple gods are composites with a genus and species since they are different. The differences distinguish one from another. Simple being has no differences but God is a simple being. Therefore, there can not be multiple gods.

In addition, if there were many gods, the word "God" would be the genus, and the many would be different gods or species. “For example, when we say “tree,” we mean something that is similar to all trees but it is not an actual tree. An actual tree exists, not in the mind, but in reality. When we say an oak tree, we state a specific difference, and oak is a species. However, in a simple being there is no genus or species because there are no differences in God, as Aristotle shows. So God can not be a genus or a species. Therefore, there can not be multiple gods.

IRS:
"I’m a Pagan. We have many Gods, with widely varying sets of standards."

ANS:
As shown above, there can not be many gods. Moreover, there can not be varying principles. Varying principles imply a contradiction of principles. God’s principles can not contradict themselves; again, that is an oxymoron.

God is Truth (Reality or Actuality), but Truth can not contradict Truth. That is a First Principle of thought, namely, a thing that exists can not exists at the same time in the same circumstances. The principle is self-evident. If what is weren’t at the same time, under the same circumstances, than thought would be meaningless.

Therefore, there is only one God, and His principles, laws, and dictates are not in contradiction.

um... voudoun is a small part, and certainly not indicative of all Paganism. We have a faith structure all our own, and admire the teachings of Leshua.. but wonder why so many don't follow it. we don't NEED anything. It's our choice to find our own path.

You don't need this voodoo nonsense. You need God and Jesus in your life.

Awesome. Glad I checked the blog today. I love that line "a Pagan on the side of the rebel Jesus."

I absolutely love this...and I agree. I wish I had found it before Christmas. Thanks.

Hi, I'm Wiccan and pagan and though I don't follow the Christian church anymore, I did grow up in it. Jesus' teachings were socialist at the core. "Love thy neighbor" For me and my circle of friends, this is at the core of our beliefs. I may be young compared to some, but honestly, socialism DOES work, if you want it to. Mr. Burwell, do you want it enough? To actively state that you will help those in need? To help the earth, which gives us life, to be refreshed and cleansed? To stop pointing fingers and do something about that which before you only complained about? Starhawk taught me, through her books, that magic is all about WANTING something bad enough, having the FAITH to believe in it and to WORK for it. Do you?

Blessed be to all, regardless of where you live, how you live and who you worship, for we are all family at the core of life.

Katrina Thiessen-Beasse
aka Esperanza, HP of the Eclectic Life Circle.

As a Roman Catholic who loves her religion, but need not forgether own and her Church's human failures and faults, I feel just as comfortable with the non-Christians in saying, "wonderfully put"! Thank you.

As a Roman Catholic who loves her religion, but need not forgether own and her Church's human failures and faults, I feel just as comfortable with the non-Christians in saying, "wonderfully put"! Thank you.

YEA STARHAWK, Loving the truth you can find usually hidden at the center of most world religions which i have studied over the years and practicing my own unique form of spiritual appreciation of the light that shines bright in each and every one of us. I love how Starhawk puts into words the glaring truth of injustice and disrespect seen in our greedy little country actions but knowing that many, many, people feel as Starhawk and want to bring out the best in all people and create a world where peace rules because ALL PEOPLE ARE TREATED WITH LOVE AND RESPECT HAVING FOOD, SHELTER, EDUCATION, HEALTHCARE, WORK THAT GIVES RESPECT TO EACH PERSON'S LIFE. Let's envision us all working together in 2008 for positive change on our earth. peaceout

Mr. Kane,

I think the difference you are seeing is due to the fact that those who speak of Pagans on other threads, are mostly Christians who have some really distorted ideas of what Paganism actually is. We try to correct misunderstandings whenever possible, and try to work with others of any or no faith who want to see the world healed as much as we do.

There are many different versions of 'Paganism', it just depends on who you ask at any point in time. We use it as an umbrella term that covers a wide variety of belief systems, from Wicca to Druidism to other Earth/Nature based religions. Other people on this thread enjoy using it as a pejorative term used to demean others.

Please keep in mind, Starhawk is not a Christian, (she grew up Jewish, as I did) but she is willing to use his imagery to create a vision of what our country could be. And she's got my respect for that. I don't know if I could do the same. Seems to me that there are enough people willing to do that without my getting involved.

My comment took so long to post that I thought it didn't do so and rewrote a short comment

The following point is new. It’s strange how different the references to pagans and Wiccans especially at the follow ups to Arun Gandhi's comments differ from Starhawks real pagean comments. I am particularly amazed that Starhawk kept referring to Christ rather than Jesus, like most who refer to Jesus’s social message do. Forgive me if I read to much into this difference.

Usually when someone refers to Christ they are referring to the spiritual, and Jesus when they refer to the social message. I don't know if this means there is something different about Starhawk, or something different about peaganism

Congressional resolutions and “the war against Christmas” vs pushing once’s personal religious prejudices, is a rehash of a long history. I’m not sure where to place my now belatedly after Christmas comments. Maybe following the grandson’s of Gandhi, Arun Gandhi’s comments, or following Starhawk’s pagan comments which were extremely unique in that she kept referring to Christ, rather than Jesus. In the past when points were made similar to hers, emphasizing secular social justice the writer would refer to Jesus not Christ. It intrigues me that she had some deep reasons for doing so, that I may be able to link to. I was unsuccessful in sighing up at her websight [ Wash-Post-editors:-note-two shorter-letters-sent-to-the-editorial-page.-“Campaign-Noise-Creates-Its-Own Truths”or-email RichardKanePA@aol.com, ]

One thing that particularly haunts me is that Jesus came to the defense of a hated Roman tax collector. No one who saw Jesus, wrote anything down, so we are doing a lot of guessing as well as believing. But there is no way anyone would think to make up the incident with the tax collector, which I will harp on later on in this posting. He also had to have stopped an execution by urging the innocent to throw the first stone, since again no reason for anyone to make up or exaggerate such an incident.

The people around him believed he had some kind of source of health care and he was trying to explain how others could get it. This isn’t a historic fact simply because science declares it to be impossible. Starting around 50 years ago we expect sunlight by flipping a swish, and more recently people to fly though the air on a TV screen. Only the animals during the last tsunamis panicked when the ocean disappeared. So all the moderators on this websight forgot to note that we no longer awe at Biblical miracles. Anyway, something about Jesus or Christ lingers, even Muslims believe they are only improving upon Jesus’s message.

The 60's was a time of reform. One 60'’s assertion that lingered that lingered was that Christmas was too commercial, leading to home drawn Christmas cards and hand-crafted presents. I wrote a Jingle to Jingle Bells. Buy buy, all the way,” “Oh what buy . . .” A think tank changed the complaint to taking Christ out of Christmas, which is far easier to make money off of then advocating refusing to buy.

Today, some believe Mike Hukabee, has gone too far in putting Christ back in Christmas, which is why this Washington Post web sight was put up. But I think he is actually, in a way, going back to the complaint against forced consumption during the Christmas season.

Anyway, Jesus stopped an execution. Which relates to a friend of mine Mumia abu-Jamal is on death row. If I want to follow Jesus or Jesus Christ, perhaps I should get my friend off of death row. Most people in Philadelphia can't stand Philadelphia being referred to as a racist city due to the Mumia trial, I’m included. This gets hyped into the lie that Philadelphians believe he is guilty. I keep tripping over working with Mumia supporters, who ostracize me for denying that racism is the issue.

Another event around me if that President Bush is being recast as the Devil Incarnate. This happened to quite a few other people including of course Adolf Hitler, who of course wasn’t all evil either. I am haunted by, “Why would Jesus befriend a hated tax collector”.

To me there is something very weird is occurring in Demon-fyng Bush. Bush’s good points such as his working well with his Texas Mexican neighbors is being condemned by most who claim to be defending Bush. So no one is defending the real George Bush. Not only does Bush want to be for immigration and both his friends and enemies won’t let him, but he also, right after 9/11 urged people not to deface Muslim businesses, humbly visited to mosque, sent an interfaith New Years greeting card his right-wing friends found offense, and worked to get Muslims involved in his faith-based annihilative.

In the summer of 2004 there was a cease-fire in Fullujah ( the locals cheered) and there was Republican talk of ending the war before the upcoming Presidential election. But a John Kerry campaign ad campaigned of terrorists hiding in Fullujah, and Bush demanded Al Sadr’s arrest. (If only Sunni’s and Shiites could know how much they now hate each other, the Sunni’s might had outed al Sadr like they later outed the blood thirsty al Qaeda leader Zarqawia.

Bush humble apologized for Abu Ghraib abuse in front of the King of Jordan. A general claimed he looked small and the King looked tall, and joined the Kerry campaign to the cheers of antiwar activists. A little praise and Guantanamo prison might be closed by now.

Hitler wanted to be an ogre or a hero depending on your politics. But the world has transformed Bush into an ogre, and there seems to be nothing he can do about it. He is all but helpless in the White House as the rest of the world forces him into the role they expect out of him.

Now the chief most public supporter of Impeachment has become Representative Robert Wexler, who has collected over 100, 000 signatures on his Impeachment petition. He earlier tried to force the President to be tougher on Iran than the President already is, and sponsored the Congressional resolution urging Congress to praise Israel’s attack on Syria Now he’s sponsoring Impeach Cheney resolutions for policies he helped format. This would be fine, if he was also apologizing for being a super hawk, www.forward.com/articles/11715/ www.njdc.org/newsdigest/detail.php?id=379/

I looked over the rules for the Washington Post web sight and noticed nothing about rules concerning length. So I am now going to paste in the three articles that got me banned from posting at Oped News (.com) after a previous comment got changed to comment hidden. The only defense of Bush that seems allowed on anti-Impeachment sights, even those who ask anti-impeachment people to explain is they are bad but not quite bad enough to Impeach. An exception is David Liftton who allows those who disagree with him to heard, www.thiscantbehappening.net/?q=node/86#comment-158/ http://tooconservative.com/?p=1737#comment-98611/ or maybe (comment-98610/)

Washington Post if you can't post the rest of my comments I hope you forward them to Starhawk and Arun Gandhi.

The way to celebrate Christmas is to try to bring peace on earth (1)

Over 2,000 years ago, Jesus didn’t like the fact that there was going to be a legal execution. He demanding that those who never committed adultery, or some similar offense, throw the first stone. No one wrote down exactly what he said. But at times he must have said something similar to, those who live by the sword die by the sword. And Jesus invented the concept of orientation being important, not just behavior, with something about lust in the heart. It is more than possible that the tremendous comfort that some people feel when they discovered or think they found Jesus was intentional on Jesus’s part, Jerusalem under occupation was quite a grim place.

He and some of the people around him believed he had some kind of source of medical care and food. Up to about 20 years ago, some called Jesus a magician. However, he kept trying to explain how he provided medical care, but we today, and those who wrote down the Bible don’t quite understand how he healed people. Some think it somehow relates to closing ones eyes and wishing real hard, or believing it so, if true, it was an extremely small part of Jesus’s abilities. Jesus didn’t insist for anyone to think that he provided health care, the way he insisted that an execution be stopped. It might be possible to believe that Jesus provided some degree of health care, without arguing with those who think Prophet Mohammad added something to Jesus’s message. There isn’t evidence that Jesus wanted people to argue about who Jesus was.

Europeans after Galileo and Darwin thought they discovered a new magic that of science, which would allow Europe to take over the world and both explain and solve every problem. We no longer think a pill, plus water, can equal a meal in the future, and now science seemed to have discovered something about most of the universe being dark energy and dark matter which we don’t understand. And with quantum theory, much of the world around us is rather than just length, width, and height, consists of time and endless other dimensions besides time. And even Darwin’s theory when reviewed with carefully math can no longer be assured to totally add up. Thus we can no longer assume that the health care, Jesus provided, was a mass hallucination.

Maybe Jesus wanted us to bring peace into our own hearts and for us to systematically try to change the people around us, to bring peace into their hearts and behavior as well, especially to try to lobby people like Bush to change their ways. Perhaps the first weeks of Cindy Sheehan’s campaign to meet with Bush and change his heart was what Jesus wanted. But now Cindy Sheehan, goes through the motions of trying to change people while she is really out to impeach and punish like everyone else.

Efforts to change Bush’s heart and policies is enclosed.

Impeachment Debate is Ruining the Progressive Agenda, (2)
Pressuring People not to Advocate Impeachment, Endangers our Freedoms

Maybe endless filibuster and gridlock is possible, but what will that accomplish? There is something destructive about wasting time on an unwinnable fight. Yet there is something undemocratic about not allowing an issue on the table for a yes or no vote. More ominously there is talk afoot that the reason Democratic politicians don’t want Impeachment is because they believe that the more Bush and Cheney mess up the better it will be for Democrats in ‘08. Thus, more than a few progressives think these dirty liberal politicians must be punished even to the point of voting for a lesser candidate.

Dennis Kusinich is an honest man. The world I’m sure is better off because this modern day Don-Quixote and bumped into it. However, Rep. Robert Wexler who is now wants to dominating the Impeachment crusade has less noble goals and ideals. He is an extreme version of Senator Joe Leiberman. Domestically he is progressive, even on kinky progressive issues, such as the rights of companion animals. But in foreign policy he is trying to force President Bush to be tougher on Iran than Bush already is. And demands that the President stop pretending evenhandedness, and openly side with Israel. He loves Armenian rights and hates Turkey. A combined Congressional Resolution demanding that the US pay restitution to Blacks and Indians as well as that Turkey acknowledge and make-amends the sins of the Ottoman Empire might be very appropriate. But singling out condemning Turkey just when tensions with Iraqi Kurds were at the boiling point approaches sabotaging US relations with Turkey, and increases tension in the region, www.forward.com/articles/11715/ /
www.njdc.org/newsdigest/detail.php?id=379

The N Y Times et all, has refused Wexler’s ad but he never tried to place an ad in the moderate Chicago Tribune, nor conservative publications. What’s happening to the money he collected? Any of it going to cash-starved efforts like some of the things Kusinich sponsors.

Trying to Impeach Cheney would be frustrating because after much filibuster and gridlock, and damaging new information, Bush would chase Cheney out of the White House across the street to the Vice President’s residence. Cheney loves to have his cake and eat it too. When it comes to the Vice President’s papers, he is suddenly a private citizen. If impeachment comes close, he will suddenly claim to have never done anything wrong, because he never had the authority to make decisions, only to give the President and legally appointed officials poor advice, and never actually did anything wrong himself, because those he made suggestions to had no obligation to listen to him. Thus, I’m sure he will claim, they not he, is responsible for what went wrong. If we would all lobby President Bush to stop allowing Federal decisions to be made informally, it would accomplish 3/4 of what impeaching Cheney would accomplish.

Cheney chased Colin Powell and George Tenant out of the White House, and might have been trying to chase Condoleezza Rice out as well. The best source of Cheney being hostile to Rice is an Internet publication called the Alternet that tries to be accurate. Unfortunately Joshua Holland quotes extensively from Sun Mung Moon’s Insight Magazine the shriller version of the revered’s Washington Times publication.
(3)
Moonies never liked Condoleezza and might have been putting trying to demote Ms. Rice in the Vice President’s mouth. “Dems whack Iraqi PM for not standing up for Israel” Read last paragraphs first www.alternet.org/bloggers/joshua/39513/

Cheney did what he could to get competent people fired and demoted for doing a good job, publicly claiming that the US needed a wake up call. And perhaps did far more. But as a private citizen offering bad advice, he may have never committed a legal crime. Let’s start hounding public officials who listen to this man’s advice, and when a tie vote in the Senate looms, won’t some Senator announce that he is going to change his vote, to vote the other way if Cheney votes?

Now for the questions of whether Bush is guilty of impeachable offences and whether only progressive politicians who oppose impeachment should be punished for not pushing the issue. I’m 62, and way back in junior-high debate club we took turns arguing each side of an issue. Anyone arguing “They’re awful, but not bad enough to be impeached” would be a poor debater. I never heard anyone argue that drunk driving is awful but the need to drive is more important, the same with abortion.

I totally agree with the pro-impeachment crowd on two points. The first that impeachment should be brought on the table, with a yes or no vote by every Congressional Representative, Also that the right-wing accusation that it’s subversive or treasonous to suggest impeachment is wrong and are themselves subverting our domestic traditions, not impeachment advocates.

Remember the talk of a possible one minute photo op between Cindy Sheehan and the President. Bush’s advisors might have been afraid that a one minute visit with a former Bush supporter who at that point felt her favorite President was making a tragic mistake, was too risky. I think Sheehan’s original plan of getting George Bush out the cage Cheney has placed him in is a good idea.

So I exaggerated the following “Don’t blame Bush” argument to finish what Cindy Sheehan started.

There used to be talk about the Ugly America, now we can be relieved that instead the world is mad at our evil President instead of at all Americans. However, a look at the world before Bush might be in order.

America formed bad habits in World War II, where scapegoating Japanese Americans was part of appealing to Americans with Nazi tendencies. Charles Lindbergh and other US neo-Nazi types loved Hitler and hated Trojo. Lindbergh tried to join the Air Force on the condition that he would only be assigned to fight the Germans. If Lindbergh and others had slashed tires during acute rubber shortage, Hitler might have won. Scapegoating “the Japs” was excellent war propaganda. Also the German and Japanese secret code was broken and frequently the US was slow to respond in order to keep it secret that we broke their code.

More recently we had the Reagan alliance, where Ronald Reagan wooed previously very progressive Catholics and Jews to tend to be conservative instead. Finally Bill Clinton managed to woo Gays and Women to be less concerned with poverty issues. But suddenly everything is George Bush Jr.’s fault. No Way.

Now to get formal:

VOTE ‘NO’ ON IMPEACHMENT: Don’t take Impeachment off the Table, Openly Debate and Vote Down a Very Bad Idea (4)

One thing Americans overwhelmingly agree on is that President Bush is messing up stem cell research. Bush allowed research on old stem cell lines indicating a go-slow approach to stem-cell research with a lot of moral oversight and review every step of the way, but he can't find advisors and scientists to help him. And of course researchers don’t want red tape and government bureaucrats breathing down their necks. Instead they scream that nothing is being done, while waiting until the next President takes office. Meanwhile, non-patent-able and thus less potentially profitable research on skin cells modified for transplant purposes is lagging.

Bush is good on immigration, changed toward Korea, he changed despite intrenched diplomats getting in the way, and so far hasn’t let Cheney force him into war with Iran. Bush apologized for Abu Ghraib abuse in front of the King of Jordan. But one only heard about looking small while the King looked tall, instead of encouraging Bush to do more.

Anyone remember the summer 2004 Republican talk of ending the war before the then upcoming election, the cease-fire in Fulujah? Locals cheered what they thought was the end of the war? A Kerry campaign ad complaining of terrorists hiding in Fulujah? Bush demanding Al Sadr's arrest? Too bad the Sunni's couldn’t foresee how much they now hate Shiites.

After a terrorist attack on the Indian Parliament in 2001, Indian and Pakistan were shooting at each other during scermishes on the Kasmire border. Marcoff made a bold move for peace by pulling Pakistani troops back away for the border. Colin Powel was very involved during that whole ordeal. And the President very alert and hands on. If they stopped nuclear war between India and Pakistan, he is our greatest President, saving more lives then he lost by his mistakes. Let’s use positive thinking and Mahatma Gandhian soul-force-nonviolence on our very haggard President? End this Greek Tragedy.
www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/jan-june02/powell_5-30.html
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3611-2004Oct27.html/ (India denies Powell's claim)
www.ivarta.com/columns/OL_050215.htm (More India)

Maybe total war wouldn’t have resulted, so his blemishes may out way his assets. But President Bush definitely had something to due with stopping al Qaeda's plans in India and Pakistan, or at least the faction of Jihadists out for total war. And since they are losing there, they are getting particularly nasty such as bombing funeral precessions. Bush disappointed al Qaeda by not at first sending ground troops to Afghanistan, instead armed the Northern Alliance. He urged people not to deface Muslim business, visited a mosque, even had a holiday card that offended some of his Christian supporters. I agree with antiwar critics that Bush is giving al Qaeda the war they want in Iraq. But the bin Laden wing of the al Qaeda is trying to trick, force or inspire the entire Muslim world into fighting with the West. Bush has done on the average a fairly good job of preventing this, possibly better than many other Presidents would have done.

Again I say put impeachment on the table. Finally have a lawyer honestly defend Bush, without also pushing their own personal right-wing agenda, like no one ever has. Then for a change help the President do a good job. And if he really wants the Vice President to hold two jobs, he should only be forced to submit Cheney's nomination to be also be Secretary of State.

Let's stop trying to make those we disagree with, in some areas, do a bad job in areas where we agree with them. People of the world, please stop doing this. Let's take a new look at what Mahatma Gandhi meant by soul force.

RichardKanePA(with)aol.com

RichardKanePA@aol.com, 215-563-2866 22 S 22nd St Apt 305 Phila PA 19103



If at First You Don’t Succeed, Try, Try, Again


MASSIVE CHANGE - Whether Impeachment in the US, (5)
or a Brand-New-Government in Cuba may end up Bad News

Bush came into office hot to trot for war or for creating massive changes in Iraq, Cuba, Iran, and North Korea. However, very unhappy changes in Iraq have ended his bellicoseness quite a bit but few are noticing.

Cuba has also been mellowing. The elder Castro, isn't the firebrand that executed his enemies early in the revolution, and his brother is even more mellow. Venezuela took over the role of backing progressive change elsewhere in the world.

However, since right-wing Cubans, unhappy with Republican anti-immigrant feelings have been part of the 2004 Democratic sweep, and have been an integral part of lobbing against a harsh immigration policy, no one has noticed that Cuba has been slowly but systematically mellowing. Efforts to affect foreign policy affect domestic policy as well. The fact that Innus depicted Attorney General Gonzales as a broken-English-speaking new immigrant, right before he insulted high-school basketball players, made his troubles worse than they otherwise would have been.

After Fidel is dead, future Cuban government leaders will be afraid to make too many reforms fearing the wreath of the Cuban people for giving in to the enemy (and even some guilt as well). But elderly Fidel could come out of retirement and make several sweeping changes while the US does some apologizing and make the best of both Cuba and the US get enhanced. It would save our democracy. Also, the US not falling into dictatorship would be good news for Cuba as well.

Circumstance, and refusing to believe the President, have gotten in the way of Bush changing his ways. In October 2004, in Fuluja, an Iraqi go-between arranged with commandeers in the field for insurgents to accept nominal Baghdad authority and the US troops pulled back, while the locals cheered what they thought was the end of the war. The US peace movement instead of joining them was hoping to cheer Bush being kicked out of office. A Kerry ad, complained of terrorists hiding in Fuluja. President Bush then demanded that Al Sadr be turned over for trial. Too bad Sunnis and Shiites couldn’t realize how much they’d hate each other today. Later, the Sunnies got so sick and tired of, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the extremely harsh al Qaeda leader that they turned his whereabouts over to the CIA. Bush responded with a peace proposal, but due to the tragic lose of life the last time they agreed to a cease-fire in Fuluja, al Jeelani demanded the release of 3,000 prisoners as a good will gesture before they would start negotiation. I was faxing Condoleezza Rice with no answer, suggesting that, due to Fuluja, the administration should stop assuming that the other side demanding a good will gesture had to mean they didn’t want peace.

Bush humbly apologized for Abu Ghraib Prison abuse in front of the King of Jordan, giving a harried moderate, temporarily much needed status in the Muslim world. Then one general announced "How small Bush looked" and joined the Kerry campaign to the cheers of the antiwar movement. Also, Republican Leader Bill Frist was going to call for bipartisan prison detention reform while he was making a grim Congressional report on the additional Abu Ghraib photos Congress privately viewed. But he was cut off the air by a news bulletin of Nick Berg being beheaded. If it wasn't for the two above incidents, perhaps the war might be over and Bush's Middle East policy might have changed as much as his policy toward North Korea has.

Not only did Nick Berg being beheaded cut off the Majority Leader Frist’s call for bipartisan detention reform, but the huge British antiwar demo near the start of the Iraq war with its floats puppetry and pageantry was an inspiration to watch until a terror incident knocked it off the air.
(6)
When news bulletin about terror bombs at the British Consulate in Turkey, and two synagogues was over, and the peace march back on the screen, it seemed strangely out of place. Later when organizing around the claim that the Iraq war had nothing to do with terrorism was expanding rapidly, bin Laden, on the Internet, demanded that Iraqis not vote. They voted any way, so everyone said, Bin Laden lost that round. But bin Laden’s immediate goal is a world at war, and so far his only loss has been in India and Pakistan.

So today everyone is focused on the possibility of Impeachment or short of that many are fixated at making Bush as powerless as possible.

In the early 40's Harry Truman, who later became President, suggested if it looks like "Hitler is winning we should support Stalin, and if Stalin is winning we should back Hitler." I think al Qaida might have a similar attitude toward both sides in the short period when the US might have no government. When Bush is gone, if we are still fighting Muslims, people will be looking around trying to find someone to blame. Clearly it will be the Jews. Perhaps al Qaeda is the only group that really knows what going on. Maybe it made strategic sense for Moussaoui to spend all his trial, charged with being the mastermind of 9/11, condemning and blaming his Jewish lawyer and urging Americans to blame the Jews. I say "no" to massive change in either Cuba or the US. Let's lobby Bush to change his ways like Cindy Sheehan tried in the first weeks or month of her protest when she was really trying to change Bush's mind.

Here in Philadelphia, there is minority representation on City Council. We get to vote for three at large city council delegates but five win. The two top vote getters who are not Democrats win as well. I don't believe the hype about Cuba being particularly cruel and oppressive. However, no opposition in the Cuban legislature has to mean that those unhappy with the way things are in Cuba don't express it politically. I wonder if the Cuban Constitution could be amended to include minority representation with five delegates to their Congress voting at large, with oversees Cubans allowed to also to vote. I wonder whether this would satisfy Miami Cubans who could go home in style without tearing up the place and making young Cubans think they are foreign invaders. (Also, in the US big states like NY could similarly change their state Constitution to elect five of their House of Representative seats at large.) Maybe also the US could agree to abolish Capital Punishment in exchange for Cuba doing likewise.

The inspiration of Communism at least to a certain extent detracts from bin Laden's appeal. Does anyone notice, there are no teenage Virginia Techs or Columbines in Latin America, thanks to the inspiration that Castro and Chavez gives, instead of negative, nihilistic, inspiration here in the US, and now sadly elsewhere such as Finland as well. The Middle East can seem hopeless to some until bin Laden offers the hope that you can destroy the enemy and everyone good going to heaven in the process. Strong leaders such as in Iran and Venezuela offer hope instead of al Qaeda’s “I ain’t going to take it any more” antics.

If Al Qaeda chooses an impeachment crisis in the US to throw its wait around, bin Laden's dream of removing unrestricted sex, drugs, booze, and democracy from the face of the earth may succeed. Though Al Qaeda may not succeed that much in totally outlawing booze.

I urge "VOTE NO" on impeachment. I call on other anti-Impeachment people to join the debate. Avoiding the issue or claiming that it’s subversive to discuss the matter won’t do.

RichardKanePA(@) aol.com, 215-563-2866 22 S 22nd St Apt 305 Phila PA 19103
Blog: Ramblings from the Hornets Nest http://ramblingsfromthehornetsnest.blogspot.com
www.opednews.com/author/author7816.html

Dear Aran Gandhi: (If this could be forwarded to Aran Gandhi’s email I would appreciate it.

Your grandfather invented soul-force which was more than non-violence. A big part of Satyagraha was trying to befriend those you were arguing with and to look out for their interest. Gandhi would never miss an opportunity to do a favor for someone he had reason to be mad at when they were down and out.

Some people the world likes to call all evil even though Hitler loved his wife, was good to his pets etc. Some like Mussolini we say got the trains to run on time, but that he did a lot more harm than good. George Bush is being declared an evil man like Hitler. He as Governor of Texas had personal Mexican friends across the border, and tried to do right by immigration. He also after 9/11 urged Americans not to deface Muslim property, or attack Muslims in the street, as a conservative President he had more clout to do this. Near my house some well connected University of Pennsylvania students severely beat up an Arab cab driver. Bush also had something to do with India and Pakistan managing to get along during a time of extreme crisis. It was good politics, mixed with real reasons for India to be mad at Colin Powell, and not to praise Musharraf, but doing so prevented President Bush from developing a positive self-image. After the terror attack on the Indian parliament, Indian and Pakistani troops were firing at each other across the Kashmiri border. Mushaffaf made a bold move by pulling Pakistani troops back away from the border. I believe this would have been impossible without both the input of Colin Powell and President Bush. The US doesn’t like to think about how close it got to vigilante justice, nor India and Pakistan before Indians realized they were doing what the terrorists want by giving in to violence. Today, there is extreme danger of those who admire suicide getting a hold of Pakistani nukes. You personally are in a unique position to praise what Bush and Musharraf did in 1992, which may allow future humans to exist instead of human mutants.

President Bush is very susceptible to outside influence both negative and positive. An opportunity for positive praise was missed but it may not be to late to provide it now.

Notes about Indian and Pakistani tensions relating to George Bush.
www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/jan-june02/powell_5-30.html
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3611-2004Oct27.html/ (India denies Powell's claim)
www.ivarta.com/columns/OL_050215.htm (More India)

Peace, RichardKanePA@aol.com 215-563 2866 22 South 22nd Street Apt. 305 Philadelphia PA 19103

Brilliant, Starhawk! If only those who want to commemorate Jesus would live his values and not harp on about his miracles, the world might be a better place.

Believe it if you want, but the truth is that we supported Hussein more than we condemned him.

We propped him up in the eighties. We have lost whatever moral claim we had to remove him from power who wouldn't have been in the position he was if it wasn't for US.

What you call 'proactive wars' is really nothing but hurting people based on false premises. Read some George Washington sometime. In his last letter to General Lafayette he mentioned that no matter how good an idea, spreading it by force will never work.

If he understood that, I don't understand why today's leaders cannot.

Starhawk, among others, works for peace. And it doesn't take religion to want to build bridges, not tear someone down because they think differently. This particular thread is not Christian and are not interested in converting. If that is your goal, please take it elsewhere.

We are, however, interested in building bridges between all people regardless of religion and I for one will stand with anyone, Christian or not, who is willing to build such understandings.

Besides, I thought the commandment was 'do not kill', not 'kill people in war or only in defense or only because I said so'.

Blessed be.

Iraq was/is not "naked aggression" but a deliverance of a people from an evil man and his evil family. To try and state otherwise is plain revisionism. Agreed there were area considerations at play but I trust we did so to protect our national interests as well. A manifold resolution may have been the very need for intervention, as I have suspected.
I do not disagree on the Christian's attitude. If you are His you WILL do these things -it is not a matter of whether you SHOULD. If Christ is in you then you will become as He is shade by shade until a perfect purity is attained - but this will never happen fully here.
But that Law of Christ is NOT for civil law. The Ten Commandments are indeed for civil law (moral standards) but the commandment of Christ are for CHRISTIANS as what they WILL do as well as for those to break upon who would be good in their own eyes.
Jesus worded the command in such a way as to leave no room for error or deviation. The Blood Of Christ alone is righteousness for the Christian.
We are not talking about social standards nor do I advocate His command as such.
Proactive wars are a civil responsibility and adjudicated by His moral standard upon governments and their representatives. To mix the individual standards with corporate responsibility brings error and confusion. Where government takes a life, for justice, the individual may not. Where government authority authorizes individuals to take life in war, of-fensively, that same individual may not personally do so except de-fensively.
See the point? The same Law does not apply corporately as it does individually due to the nature of the authoritative covering government is duty bound to provide.
But that sword of Christ is individual in nature. He is referring to the suffering that will befall all the Children of God for their witness and for His name's sake. This ideal of "understanding" Star advocates is at the cost of Truth and Christians will have none of that. And for their stance the sword will come...
But Jesus advocated the right kind of care: to love someone with God's love, love them enough to tell them the truth, for the Glory of Yahweh.

Patrick Burwell:

You put words into my mouth that were not there. I defend our military to the fullest, but despair of our misuse of it. A war of defense is a just war. Such was Afghanistan - I would have gone myself if they had let someone nearly 60 at the time go, and I am furious how it has been mishandled. But Iraq was naked aggression on our part.

Regarding the 10 Commandments. Of course they are still valid. But if you love your neighbor as yourself, you will not lie, murder, steal, etc. You misunderstand how our Lord made things positive instead of negative.

So Jesus said that He brings a sword? In what way does that ring true for proactive wars, in the light of what the Prince of Peace said about loving one's enemies and turning the other cheek? I think it was a warning about what would happen to those who bore His message to the world, not what these messengers should do. Did not our Lord chastise the disciple for using a sword at His betrayal?

Where to begin?

"First, socialism/communism does not work not because it is evil, but because it is stupid. Evil people ran, still run, communist countries. In Europe, many countries have modified socialism to make it work rather well, if tempered by capitalism."

I assume you mean Holland. They murdered my father-in-law without his consent when they decided he was a drag on their society. Nice system. Not here, not ever.

"Next, by your definition of border security, America would have collapsed sometime in the 19th century."
So you want illegal immigration? That's flat out crazy talk you realize that, right?

"Then, about the military. I have read no comments on this blog criticizing the military, only the arbitrary use of it by the knuckle-draggers in the administration. I am a Vietnam-era vet, by the way, so do NOT accuse me of dissing our soldiers."

I am glad you did your duty. Does that preclude you from being wrong? The implied dissing of soldiers was the comments about war not being what Jesus would do. It escapes me where people get the idea that Christians are called to be lame-brained limp-wristed doormats incapable of being man enough to defend what SHOULD be defended. And don't accuse ME either. I did my duty too.

"Finally, religion. I agree, if one claims to be Christian (I do), get one's head out of the sand and focus on the Creator and the teaching of Jesus. Note that, to me, this means an emphasis on the Two Great Commandments, not the old 10 ones. Christianity is about Christ and what He taught and did; His story is in the Gospels. The obsession of so many 'Christians' with the Old Testament defies explanation. My opinion, anyway."

So you have no problem with liars, thieves and adulterers? "Red-Letter" people have a real problem as Jesus quoted the very scripture they say isn't as valid as what Jesus said. Jesus holds scripture in the highest regard. So none of the Ten Commandments are invalid. (Yes not everything in the OT is relevant - the Scripture is progressive after all - like the 4th commandment is about surrendering daily to Jesus as your Sabbath). But if you read Romans you would see what the Law is for: to show a sinner how sinful he is. There isn't ANY of us who have kept the Law. This shows we are all the same. Now THAT is true equality. :) And God's mercy is available to all who forsake their sin and trust Jesus to save them, surrendering to His will thereafter. I don't see the problem. What you might be forgetting is Jesus gave a new commandment far more difficult than the two that only fulfill the Law and the Prophets. And this one Commandment is designed to consolidate ALL the Law into one impossibility that we are to Love as He has loved us. Only Jesus can do that and only through those who have surrendered to his will.
We need not disagree here, I think. We need only come to an understanding that social change will never happen outside of the return of Christ. But we can be a light on the Hill, and defend the weak and helpless, doing good as we can to all we can. HOW we do that we may not agree on. But no where does this mean we are to be spineless wimps letting the evil run over us for Jesus name's sake. Indeed the scripture show we are not to answer back for insults but does not mean we do not defend ourselves. Someone comes through my door unannounced and they will get a surprise.
And no where does Jesus ever say otherwise that we are to not come to the aid of those in need. How we do that is a Republic of Duly Elected representatives of the citizenry with a Capitalistic Free Enterprise system HELD to the moral standard of Christianity in it's Law.
Encouraging other societies to that standard is a good thing.
Defending others against oppressive regimes and governments, helping them attain their freedom as France did us is not just our duty before Yahweh but to our honor.

To advocate making America a pandering, borderless, sovereignless product of communal ideology born of a godless immorality is not my ideal of a solution and that is why I objected to Star's rant.

Priver: (my responses are in the asterisk's)
"And by the way, you do realize how much of our economy and food is harvested by illegal immigrants? Taking them out of the picture will do more harm than help. In fact, unless you are one hundred percent First Nation Native American, you are the product of immigration in this country. Are you sure it was legal?"

*this is nothing but baiting so I won't comment*

"Are you aware that we knowingly supported and GAVE the weapons that Hussein used to kill his own people? We did that during Reagan because during the Iraq/Iran war we hated Iran so much that we gave weapons and money to Saddam."

*Sometimes your enemies are your friends when you deal with greater enemies. But when Hussein went nuts we dealt with him. Not fast enough in my opinion.*

"Pagans are hurt, defamed and discriminated against IN America all the time, just for being different. As are gay people, and probably even atheists. But we believe in what America could be. We could be building bridges and working to understand other people not like us rather than going in and pushing people around. Caring for one another. Which seems to me like what your Jesus was all about."

*Foxes book of Martyrs - enough said.
The America that could be appears to be anarchy by your definition. Jesus said clearly what He brings is not peace but a sword. Sin is the problem not a lack of understanding. A Christian's job is to show you your sin and how what you do makes you an enemy of God. Only then can you understand the Mercy of God. You call this defamation and discrimination. We call it declaring the Truth. The Truth will win in the end.*

Priver: (my responses are in the asterisk's)
"And by the way, you do realize how much of our economy and food is harvested by illegal immigrants? Taking them out of the picture will do more harm than help. In fact, unless you are one hundred percent First Nation Native American, you are the product of immigration in this country. Are you sure it was legal?"

*this is nothing but baiting so I won't comment*

"Are you aware that we knowingly supported and GAVE the weapons that Hussein used to kill his own people? We did that during Reagan because during the Iraq/Iran war we hated Iran so much that we gave weapons and money to Saddam."

*Sometimes your enemies are your friends when you deal with greater enemies. But when Hussein went nuts we dealt with him. Not fast enough in my opinion.*

"Pagans are hurt, defamed and discriminated against IN America all the time, just for being different. As are gay people, and probably even atheists. But we believe in what America could be. We could be building bridges and working to understand other people not like us rather than going in and pushing people around. Caring for one another. Which seems to me like what your Jesus was all about."

*Foxes book of Martyrs - enough said.
The America that could be appears to be anarchy by your definition. Jesus said clearly what He brings is not peace but a sword. Sin is the problem not a lack of understanding. A Christian's job is to show you your sin and how what you do makes you an enemy of God. Only then can you understand the Mercy of God. You call this defamation and discrimination. We call it declaring the Truth. The Truth will win in the end.*

Wiccan:
"Would your Christ have us seek war, not peace? Would He prefer that we throw our weight around and bully other nations, or be humble and share the largesse we've been granted? Why should we follow your God when you cannot follow His precepts?"

Show me exactly where Jesus said not to protect the innocent and defend the weak? I'm confused... You WANTED Hussein to continue his murdering? You LIKE when ISLAM murders those too weak to defend themselves?
Again, I am confused by your response.

Christian ministries share their largess with exorbitant beneficence to the tune of millions of dollars. So what is the real problem? It's a known fact there is enough food to feed every mouth so somebody is stealing. And that is exactly the problem. Dictators and socialist anarchists steal from their OWN POOR to feed their armies. I do not advocate handouts except in the most extreme cases in order to keep people alive in order to establish them in self sustaining environments.
But no, the problem is NOT Christians not being Christ-like in America but it is that there are those who use the generosity of the Disciples of Christ to feed their own gain. Jesus never said we should let the weak be trampled.
No government is perfect and certainly this country's leadership needs close supervision by it's citizenry. But to throw the baby out with the bathwater is no solution either. This author advocates for the destruction of our very political structure, our very way of republican government - not democratic as in mob rule, but republican as in a Republic of duly elected representatives legislating from conscience. Star would change our government for a socialist, marxist ideal of communal living. The system responsible for 100 million deaths. That ideal is based upon the nonsensical theories of macro adaptation, which has never been proven in any laboratory as science, that makes man a smart animal not the God-Breathed Creation of an almighty God who sees every suffering heart and knows the thoughts of every man.
It is not the mercy of God in question here but the heart of man. You are remarking on what God has already told you about in the bible: The heart of man is desperately wicked.
Christians are changed people and theirs is not the problem.

No, I don't see where the problem lies in Christianity. You may be seeing hypocrites acting un-Christian but that is to be expected of them. After all no hypocrite will enter Heaven. But what Star is advocating is the classic example of the 'out of the frying pan and into the fire' solution which is no solution at all.

Whining never solved anything. If you want to resolve issues such as poverty, housing and foreign policy then either deal politically or personally. I do both and I recommend you do the same... and may the Truth always win.

Patrick Burwell:

Where to begin?

First, socialism/communism does not work not because it is evil, but because it is stupid. Evil people ran, still run, communist countries. In Europe, many countries have modified socialism to make it work rather well, if tempered by capitalism.

Next, by your definition of border security, America would have collapsed sometime in the 19th century.

Then, about the military. I have read no comments on this blog criticizing the military, only the arbitrary use of it by the knuckle-draggers in the administration. I am a Vietnam-era vet, by the way, so do NOT accuse me of dissing our soldiers.

Finally, religion. I agree, if one claims to be Christian (I do), get one's head out of the sand and focus on the Creator and the teaching of Jesus. Note that, to me, this means an emphasis on the Two Great Commandments, not the old 10 ones. Christianity is about Christ and what He taught and did; His story is in the Gospels. The obsession of so many 'Christians' with the Old Testament defies explanation. My opinion, anyway.

Patrick,

Starhawk is one of the most grateful people out there. It permeates everything she is and does. That's why she's got our respect, even if we disagree with her on some things. It's because she makes her words and her action the same thing. She doesn't just advocate helping one another out, she puts her time and her energy into making things happen.

And by the way, you do realize how much of our economy and food is harvested by illegal immigrants? Taking them out of the picture will do more harm than help. In fact, unless you are one hundred percent First Nation Native American, you are the product of immigration in this country. Are you sure it was legal?

Are you aware that we knowingly supported and GAVE the weapons that Hussein used to kill his own people? We did that during Reagan because during the Iraq/Iran war we hated Iran so much that we gave weapons and money to Saddam.

Pagans are hurt, defamed and discriminated against IN America all the time, just for being different. As are gay people, and probably even atheists. But we believe in what America could be. We could be building bridges and working to understand other people not like us rather than going in and pushing people around. Caring for one another. Which seems to me like what your Jesus was all about.

Blessed be.

Sorry about that. I thought I posted that right...
here is again with my name:

Here is my reply to your comments:

1. Socialism never works. Never has, never will. 100 million deaths have proved that. Hire a man who wants to work and you have given him what he needs: His dignity, his worth and his sustenance. Hand outs have PROVEN to only RUIN people in the long term.

2. Border security is for your protection against illegal alien criminals. LEGAL immigration is what needs to be addressed and made less convoluted. Enforce the law as it is and stop gumming up the process with socialist legislation and we would have a viable resolution. Open borders only destroys a nation. That is why every nation has borders and means for LEGAL immigration. I do agree our immigration law needs work but destroying our national border security only ADDS to the problem.

3. It's an easy matter to cry "foul" from behind the protective covering of our Military, those brave souls who defend your rights, and the right of innocents to live against such monsters as Hussein was. You are welcome to stand in front of the soldiers with flowers in hand at any time and see how quickly you become a victim of those whom our Military would defend you against with THEIR lives.

Star, let me encourage you to realize that this nation is free because of the stability our military provides AGAINST oppression. This nation is one of very few in the world where you can even complain without being shot or mugged. India is one of the largest democracys and yet Christians are regularly being killed for just being Christians, killed because no one will defend them against murder. Is that what you want in the USA?

Listen, a little gratitude would clear up your confusion quickly. A little personal honest introspection with the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, might show you that you really are like the rest of us - in need of rescue from the God you so willingly deny.
Truth is not relative to belief. Jesus IS God. Stop worshiping the creation and begin to worship the Creator and the sacrifice He has made to save you from your just reward.
Take a look at http://theGoodPersonTest.com and see yourself in truth.

Gaby,

So Mote It Be! :-)

To Anonymous:

“Whereas Christ has been called the Prince of Peace, we repent of our eagerness to use war and violence as the answer to every international situation, of the horrific and destructive war we have waged in Iraq which has claimed tens of thousands of lives, and we commit ourselves to a withdrawal of our armies, to a new foreign policy based on the building of relationships, not the bombing of children, and to fostering and nurturing peace.”

"3. It's an easy matter to cry "foul" from behind the protective covering of our Military, those brave souls who defend your rights, and the right of innocents to live against such monsters as Hussein was. You are welcome to stand in front of the soldiers with flowers in hand at any time and see how quickly you become a victim of those whom our Military would defend you against with THEIR lives."

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I don't see how challenging our nation's eagerness to find a military solution to our problems with foreign relations equates to the condemnation of the men and women in our armed forces you claim Starhawk makes.

Would your Christ have us seek war, not peace? Would He prefer that we throw our weight around and bully other nations, or be humble and share the largesse we've been granted? Why should we follow your God when you cannot follow His precepts?

"HAPPY NEW YEAR, EVERYONE!!!"

If it could happen, even if only for one single day, I would have PEACE everywhere, FOOD and WATER for every being, and HAPPINESS for all.

Just once!!!

"It's an easy matter to cry "foul" from behind the protective covering of our Military"

or an anonymous post, apparently.

Here is my reply to your comments:

1. Socialism never works. Never has, never will. 100 million deaths have proved that. Hire a man who wants to work and you have given him what he needs: His dignity, his worth and his sustenance. Hand outs have PROVEN to only RUIN people in the long term.

2. Border security is for your protection against illegal alien criminals. LEGAL immigration is what needs to be addressed and made less convoluted. Enforce the law as it is and stop gumming up the process with socialist legislation and we would have a viable resolution. Open borders only destroys a nation. That is why every nation has borders and means for LEGAL immigration. I do agree our immigration law needs work but destroying our national border security only ADDS to the problem.

3. It's an easy matter to cry "foul" from behind the protective covering of our Military, those brave souls who defend your rights, and the right of innocents to live against such monsters as Hussein was. You are welcome to stand in front of the soldiers with flowers in hand at any time and see how quickly you become a victim of those whom our Military would defend you against with THEIR lives.

Star, let me encourage you to realize that this nation is free because of the stability our military provides AGAINST oppression. This nation is one of very few in the world where you can even complain without being shot or mugged. India is one of the largest democracys and yet Christians are regularly being killed for just being Christians, killed because no one will defend them against murder. Is that what you want in the USA?

Listen, a little gratitude would clear up your confusion quickly. A little personal honest introspection with the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, might show you that you really are like the rest of us - in need of rescue from the God you so willingly deny.
Truth is not relative to belief. Jesus IS God. Stop worshiping the creation and begin to worship the Creator and the sacrifice He has made to save you from your just reward.
Take a look at http://theGoodPersonTest.com and see yourself in truth.

http://www.shareintl.org/

World leadership at it's finest.
More will be revealed.

Starhawk, for years I've valued your contributions. You voice is so needed.
2008 Greetings to all!

Amen.

Starhawk,

Though I would not endorse all that you've said, I do agree that it would be nice to see more Christianity in the Christians.

Good holidays.

Karl,

Have you lived in other places? any other place, not alone all other places?

So how do you know it is the best place on Earth?

As far as the influence of Christianity on our Founders? Ever read some of the thoughts that some of the Founders had about Christianity?

They were more influenced by the enlightenment philosophers...Voltaire, Rousseau,Descartes, Thomas Paine, David Hume, Jeremy Bentham ...they did their best to bury the old dark ages and bring to the new world a new way.

Our founders did not want what had happened in the old world to travel to this new nation. They wanted something new...Enlightenment. Reason.

Just exactly what laws are we following that is biblical? Can we stone adulterers? Sell your daughter? Have no other Gods before you? Not wear blended cloth?

Where is the Christian foundation?

And exactly what has Christmas given to this nation? I know it has helped the retailers ...so I guess it is now: What is good for Walmart is good for America.

terra

The idea that this resolution HR 847 should be "edited" to become a commentary (or possibly an attack?) on the actions or lack of actions of Christians is missing the point of the resolution.

While much suffering occurs in this world, the notion that nobody is doing anything about it, or that our government should take care all our needs, demeans the efforts of good people of all religions towards caring for the poor and down-trodden among us.

While none of us are perfect, I know there are many, many people being helped every day by Christians and other people, religious or not. The real question raised by Starhawk should be, "What is each of us doing to help our fellow beings?" We would all do well to get busy and do more to help those in need.

Finally, I support resolution HR 847 because of the influence Christian beliefs had on the founders of our great nation, and the continued influence, although obviously weakening as evidenced by having to introduce this resolution at all, in maintaining this nation as one of the best places on this earth to live. We just all need to work together to make it even better.

Karl

i'm not wiccan, but i am a pagan and i'd endorse this resolution.
nice work, starhawk!
khairete
suz

Starhawk said it right...
It's easy to talk, harder to walk your talk...too many hold up their rubber fingers and claim to be #1...while stepping over the ill, homeless and lost.

How many millions go into the coffers of those who talk while those who walk the walk do it on their own? Huge Universities whose whole reason is to further their religious agenda... While those universities train people to further their ieaology we pay them to do it. While those who fight for equality and civil rights for all, walk their walk and have to buy their own shoes.

Why do we not stand back and see what the facts are...there are lone groups doing so much with so little..but we give so much to those who do so little.

I read an article the other day about a "charity" that bought new shoes for poor kids. That is a good thing at first light..but...the children had to participate in Christian foot washing to get the shoes. This happened in a public school...
So how much tax money does this church get? Is batheing the feet of kids in a Christian ritual neccessary for children to get shoes?

I am so proud of Starhawk and how she represents our Pagan/Wicca principles.(not to say there are not other Pagan religions that may or may not hold with the same ethics)

terra

Some very good thoughts to contemplate in the coming year.

Thank you, Starhawk.

Thank you Starhawk! Have a blessed 2008.

Yeah! Go Starhawk!

I wouldn't support it, because the wording is terrible.

>>"That the House of Representatives--
(1) recognizes the Christian faith as one of the great religions of the world"

Do we pay these guys for this stuff? Are you kidding me? Exactly who could possibly dispute or be unaware of this, that it needs saying out loud?

>>"(2) expresses continued support for Christians in the United States and worldwide;"

Only Christians? Why is the government supporting a religion?

>>"(4) acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and Christianity in the founding of the United States and in the formation of the western civilization;"

I think several founding fathers (the Deists for a start) might have something to say about how Christians formed the whole of "Western civilisation". Christianity became the number one religion by means of sword and fire to anyone who disagreed, and then gave us the Dark Ages, Inquisition and puritanism. It's undeniably had a cultural impact. Are they saying it was the primary one behind forming the US democracy or the Constitution? Or that it should be supported as such?

>>"(5) rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians, both in the United States and worldwide; and"

Hi guys, there's a few other faiths who suffer bigotry against them too, neopaganism would be a good one to start with. Make me happy, write "rejects bigotry and persecution directed against anyone for reasons of faith".

>>"(6) expresses its deepest respect to American Christians and Christians throughout the world."

We couldn't tell. It wasn't obvious enough from the quotes and actions of your government for the last 100 years straight.

>>"(3) acknowledges the international religious and historical importance of Christmas and the Christian faith;"

Do these guys honestly believe that Christianity (or Christmas) needs some kind of special help in the US? That's it's under threat as a national religion and festival in any way?

In the UK, there are more atheists than Christians and less people going to Church than ever. Most of the country still celebrates Christmas - as a secular seasonal festival. That's what they want, that's how it's changed. Bills won't stop that happening if it's going to.

In the US, it doesn't even look as if it's going to. If anything, more extreme versions of Christianity are *more* popular now.

This is a hugely emotive bill that does much, much more than express admiration for Christmas. It suggests the government (and people) should actively support one religion. Language this specifically 'pro- a single religion' doesn't belong on a government resolution. It's not the government's business.

You support Christmas? So what would you do if it was under threat? How does this bill suggest action, or enforcement? If it doesn't, a) Why have it at all, and b) why is it so gushingly pro-christian?

As a pagan who celebrates Yule, I like the goodwill, family gatherings and charitable thoughts that come to the whole country at Christmas. I don't believe in Jesus' divinity (and know that even the Church doesn't think he was born in December), but a holiday to celebrate the passing of Midwinter and rejoicing in the dark days is a very good thing for any country.

Would I vote for a resolution so praising Christianity as fundamental in creating the US (and Western Civilisation!)? Why?

Why is there a bill being read in Government called "Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith"? What importance does it have? More important than whom? Who on earth isn't recognising the religion practiced by over 75% of the citizens? What is the benefit of putting this in writing?

I'd prefer the representatives to spend more time improving education, affordable healthcare, reducing poverty and promoting *multi-faith* tolerance, thanks. This bill is either unnecessary or offensive, either way it's useless.

Starhawk,

I am awestruck. You may be Pagan, but you know the true core of what Jesus taught the world. This is why I am still Christian, despite our faults. Thank you.

I like your resolution a lot better than the House of Representatives.
Thank you Starhawk,

Isabel

Hmmm... I think it's great that Starhawk is responding to this, and at first it seemed really good, but, while I support her sentiment generally, I have several subtle criticisms.

HR 847 is totally inappropriate. It's an absolute fact that this nation was founded as a secular nation. The First Amendment states that Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion. The Treaty of Tripoli, which was signed during the John Adams administration says, "The United States of America is in no way founded on the Christian Religion". Numerous quotes from our founders make it really clear that they really *did* believe in freedom of religion for all religions.

Too many people, even liberals, assume that just because it was the 18th Century, people must have been less progressive across the board than they are now, but in the case of freedom of religion that's a false assumption. Our founders, as we know from their quotes, were, as impassioned champions of the Enlightenment, strong supporters of freedom of religion for all religions.

So, I feel like Starhawk, by talking about what it would truly mean for our country to be Christian, is tacitly accepting our nation as Christian. She's only arguing about what that means. For a Pagan leader who has a reputation for being radical, this is far from radical. Indeed, it is to some extent buying into a radical conservative agenda, which is to blur the secularism of America until people think America was founded as a Christian country. In other words, Starhawk is giving power to a radical conservative frame: America as Christian. According to UC Berkeley Linguist George Lakoff (who has numerous articles on rockridgeinstitute.org), invoking the other guy's frame only reinforces it. Saying, "I oppose the Republican's tax reform plan", actually bolsters the notion that taxes need to be reformed. Saying that America *is* a Christian nation but a hypocritical one actually bolsters the notion of America as a Christian nation, which is a false notion. I think it only makes her point weaker that she's not actually Christian.

Instead, I think it would be better to respond to this sort of thing by reaffirming what we know to be true: that America is a secular nation. The bill makes no mention of other religions. It doesn't support Jews, Muslims, atheists or agnostics, even though there are lots of them in America. It doesn't support Hindus, even though their numbers in the world are huge. It doesn't support Native American religions, which Americans trampled in order for America to expand.

The point, I think, is *not* that American actions have been un-Christian, but that a good, true Americans need to stand up to the radical agenda of Christian extremists.

So, while I respect Starhawk's words and her attempts to help us fight this, I'm afraid I must be critical of them as well.

Blessed be,

Ivan Phosphoros

I am neither pagan or Christian and I side with no side so I will just say...

- The residents of New Orleans need you and me to unite not divide in our efforts to rescuscitate their city.

- The children need us to unite not divide when it comes to their needs. Before you know it, they'll be all grown up. Let's bring up a generation of children who we teach to work together to solve the problems we are all faced with here on mother earth.

- Let's not contribute even tiny sparks of criticism and remember every time we make peace, the world is more peaceful. Bickering of pagans and Christians may be on a small scale, but it's also a miniature version of the same war that divides other countries and peoples.

- Quakers are the only people I know who are as committed to peace as the rest of us claim each other should be. When we all refuse war, we will have world peace.

Every time we point fingers at each other, we waste a precious moment that we'll never get back again. Maybe the world will never be free of imperfections, but it can be a better place if we all contribute to that cause. We have to be those things we wish to see, not just wait around for someone else to lead the way.

So be it....

I am neither pagan or Christian and I side with no side so I will just say...

- The residents of New Orleans need you and me to unite not divide in our efforts to rescuscitate their city.

- The children need us to unite not divide when it comes to their needs. Before you know it, they'll be all grown up. Let's bring up a generation of children who we teach to work together to solve the problems we are all faced with here on mother earth.

- Let's not contribute even tiny sparks of criticism and remember every time we make peace, the world is more peaceful. Bickering of pagans and Christians may be on a small scale, but it's also a miniature version of the same war that divides other countries and peoples.

- Quakers are the only people I know who are as committed to peace as the rest of us claim each other should be. When we all refuse war, we will have world peace.

Every time we point fingers at each other, we waste a precious moment that we'll never get back again. Maybe the world will never be free of imperfections, but it can be a better place if we all contribute to that cause. We have to be those things we wish to see, not just wait around for someone else to lead the way.

So be it....

It is interesting how much people talk, preach, argue, and complain about words of faith, religion, spirituality, god. All are meaningless and empty, and it all accomplishes little of nothing when their actions do not reflect those words of belief and practice.

Thank You Starhawk for living your words everyday! Your example and words of truth are gifts of wisdom and light to a blind self-absorbed world.

May the sun shine on every heart and release the suffering and hate. Let the rain wash the ignorance from the mind and nourish the growth of understanding. Then rainbows will dance across the sky to celebrate peace and love.

Bravo, Starhawk! I totally agree with you. It's why I left the Christian Church long ago. Thanks.

Eloquently put. Thank you.