Pagan Chaplains and Public Servants

Starhawk,

You are very inspirational. We are so happy that you are doing this.

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I've read with great interest (and in some respects scattered frustration) all the comments on this board. Thank you all so much for this enlightening conversation.

BTW, Terra....thank you for your 7/7 post which beautifully expressed the feel of PSG's opening ritual. It brought back many old and wonderful memories!

If you like the, "Circle In" lyrics by Peter Conover, that Terra Gazelle referenced, check out his website at www.peterconover.com

I couldn't say anything better than what Starhawk has written in regards to the right of Pagan chaplains and their services in the military called Pagan Chaplains and Public Servants. So if you want my opinion then read Starhawk's response to this question twice.

ANTAEUS,

Yes, GOD hates sin and loves sinners like you and me.

Thanks and goodbye

ihab

ANTAEUS,

GOD hates sin and loves sinners like you and me.

Thanks and good bye.

ANTAEUS,

GOD hates sin and loves sinners like you and me.

Thanks a good bye.

The purpose of the Chaplain would be to provide for the religious needs of the Pagan soldiers, just as Christian chaplains do for their soldiers. Just because our definition of Deity does not fit your own does not mean we do not have religious needs. If you scroll about 2/3 of the way up this thread, Athena addresses why Pagan soldiers need Chaplains fairly well. The job of the Pagan chaplain would be to assist soldiers in observing whatever Pagan holidays they observe, and with whatever rites their practice participates in. For example, a friend of mine who is Pagan is about to go to Iraq. Even though he is Pagan, he has not devoted as much time to the study of his religion as I or many others have, and probably would have difficulty performing some of the more complex rituals on his own. This is where the services of a Pagan chaplain would be useful.

I'm afraid I believe, and have experienced, that all things have a soul, both what you would call living and those things you would say are not living. All of these are part of the living body of the Goddess Gaea (at least, those on Earth are), as well as the Universe as a whole.

Not being Christian, I do not suffer from the condition know as "sin", therefore do not need to be saved from it. Besides, I am fortunate in that I am actually not capable of nor compatable with being a Christian, so cannot be tempted to become Christian. And you say that your God is love--did you know there are more scriptures in the Holy Bible about what God hates than about what God loves?

ANTAEUS

Let me start by sincerely thanking you for this candor chatting. Also, let me apologize if I have offended you in any manner of speech. Sometimes, it is convenient for someone to think that his/her own ideas are main stream compared to the others'.

Let me also continue this chatting by submitting to you that what you believe in is fundamentally your own concern. Let me present you with the following points:

First: You have been contesting that any Religious standard is unconstitutional; nonetheless, you still demand to have a chaplain -a religious figure- for all Pagans serving in the military. Why would you need such a religious figure if you do no believe in GOD? Chaplains, I assume, are for those who believe in GOD, serving religious duties! In other words, what would be the job description of such a military position that would represent all Pagans in the military?

Second: It is good that you have been an atheist for that long. However, I think it is about time you give GOD a second chance. I say a second chance because I truly and honestly believe that every human being always knows GOD before he/she becomes “intellectually capable” to refute the presence of GOD in their lives. To me, this has been a fact because of the Holy Spirit that dwells in all of us; the human beings. The Holy Spirit guides us towards serving and worshipping GOD the Creator. After that revelation and at a certain age and a certain stage in our lives, some of us try/choose to crush the Holy Spirit that resides in them in order to follow on their own designs in their lives, and to get nurtured/raised on some "intellectual supremacy" the day they read something or listen to someone or become victims of someone's misgivings, which would ultimately lead them to distrust GOD and choose to deny GOD for whatever others have done unto them. Also, why do you think all other creations do not pray to GOD? Because animals, birds, and all other creations do not have in them the Holy Spirit of GOD. They only have their own bodies and souls. Whereas, humans have the three: flesh, soul, and the Holy Spirit of GOD.

In here, let me make a confession that might disappoint you: I am a born-again Christian who believes in GOD as the source of all creation including me and you.

Now, the question is "who is that GOD?" Obviously, GOD is not reflected in your father and brother the preachers, and for that matter, GOD has never been even reflected in any human being except in HIS HOLY SON; JESUS CHRIST. For JESUS CHRIST was born in the flesh, but without sin, as the SON of GOD, to be our Holy Sacrifice that redeem us from our sins. Probably, you have heard that before, and therefore, the question is still who is GOD? I personally believe that the answer is in the Bible, in Luke chapter 1. Try and read it.

Third: I pray that GOD and HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST, be with you all the time, and bless us all. For GOD is everything and all in all, including LOVE.

Ihab:

You miss the point. What you believe, or what I believe, or what you think I should believe, is not the point. Any standard you set up to distinguish between what you think is a religion and what you think is not a religion, or any standard anyone else sets up, is unconstitutional. Now, it may very well take us a while to achieve our goal of chaplains in the military--it took us _many_ years to get our symbol approved for veteran's tombstones. But unless the courts go far afield from their current pattern of rulings, eventually we will get our chaplains.

Other than that, the Moon has told me many things, as has the Earth, the Universe, and Hera herself, for that matter. To start with, I had been an atheist for 10 years when very early one August morning in 1984 I went out onto the front porch to look at the moon. When I went back into the house I was Pagan, by disbelief in all things spiritual shattered. I won't get into specifics here, for it is my belief that all persons should form their own spiritual connections and receive their own communications from the devine. In general, though, what I have been told and what I have experienced is that All Things are intimately connected, all things are devine, and what you do to any part of the whole affects all parts of the whole, including yourself. As far as Origins go, The Universe gave birth to Herself, no outside force necesary.

As for worshipping the wrong things--as I said, I was an Atheist, worshipping and believing in nothing. I began worshipping that which introduced itself to me, and showered me with love, beauty, and acceptance. Any Deity(s) which wish to do the same to me are welcome to, and some have. As for your (presumably--you haven't actually said) Monotheistic God--lets just say I was raised in a very fundamentalist family, with a father and brother as preachers, and what I expereinced from them, and from their God, was _far_ from loving, beautiful, or in any way accepting.

ANTAEUS,

I am now more informed about Pagans, and I should admit that I knew little about Paganism. I agree with you ANTAEUS about having one measuring standard to evaluate (not necessarily to judge) how people can describe and measure their faith whether in God or in a Deity. However, I totally disagree with you to describe Paganism as an umbrella term for several religions. Let us put things in perspective:
1- You do admit that you, as a Pagan, do not believe in GOD.
2- You also point out that there are double standards (prejudice) among people when they attempt to describe their religion as compared to others', which, I would guess, also include your own perspective (prejudice) towards my own description of God.
3- You also indicated that you worship the moon and the earth and the alike.

Here is my take:

I believe in GOD who created the earth, the moon, and the universe, and therefore, I believe in the Creator and not in the creation/created. I also tend to distinguish among people who have a religion and other people who have faith. You might have a religion that tells you how, when, why, what, to worship, but it cannot guarantee to you that what you worship actually exists on its own without a Creator. Consequently, you might be worshiping the wrong thing(s) for the wrong reasons. In the old times, people used to worship the sun as a source of un-explained energy that sometime caused devastating fires for them. They feared the sun, and therefore, they worshiped it. What was the most recent thing/inspiration that you got from the moon that you worship? Did the moon tell how to treat other people? Did the moon told you why it is not good to steal or why it is not good to have sex with your daughter or your brother or your son or your mother? Did a Deity tell you why it is not good to worship another man just like what the Mormons have been doing? Who taught you the good from the bad, the evil from the kind? Was it the universe or was it the earth? If any of your Deity told you what is good and what is bad, then I think you have a credible reason to ask for your sect's own Chaplain in the military. Otherwise, you still need to learn more about GOD, a lot more than you what know about the universe ... that GOD created ... and for a reason.

Ummm, IHAB, you haven't actually studied what it is that Pagans actually believe, have you? And we want a Chaplain to serve the Pagans in the military, not one in Congress, at least not until an openly Pagan person is elected to Congress, (I'm guessing thats still quite a ways off).

As for believing in God and having a religion, I would say that Paganism is an umbrella term for several religions, each of which most likely worship Diety, most of them probably more than one form of it. I don't know if any of the diety forms worshipped by any of the Pagan religions would meet your definition of God or not. Myself, I am a Pantheistic Panpolytheist, meaning I have experienced Deity both in Nature and also in various forms that it has taken to be worshipped by Humans. So, I worship a Deity that is composed of everything that exists, and that I call "The Universe" when I am worshipping it. I also worship "The Earth" and "The Moon", as well as such specific personality-based deities as Bridget, Innana, and Dionysius. Other Pagans might worship (and indeed believe in) members of only one specific pantheon of deities, or be a pure Pantheist and worship Deity as revealed in Nature only, eschewing the worship of personal deities. Many Wiccans (a specific and popular form of modern Paganism) worship two Dieties which they call "The Goddess" and "The God", believing all other Dieties are aspects of them.

Now, it is all very well to say therefore that Pagans do not believe in "God" and do not practice what you would call a religion. But I have personally heard Christian ministers argue that Mormonism is not a religion and that they do not worship God, since the way the Mormons describe God is, in their opinion, incompatable with any definition of God that is meaningful to them. I am sure these same ministers would have similar opinions about Hinduism, Buddhism, and doubtless Scientology or Bahai' as well. This is why the Constitution does not allow there to be tests of establishment or recognition of religions. If we believe we are following a religion, you must treat is as one, or else judge other people's religions with the same standard you would judge ours with--and it is this setting of a standard that is unconstitutional.

ANTAEUS was right, the word "God" only appears once in the Declaration of Independence. The word “God” does not appear in the US Constitution nor in its amendments (Bill of rights) nor it appears in the non-ratified amendments.

However, what I wanted to say was that a Chaplain is a religious figure that serves religious duties, and since pagans do not believe in God why would they insist on having a religious representative in Congress if they do not believe in God and have no religion?

Actually, the word "God" does not appear in either the original Constitution nor the first ten ammendments, commonly called the Bill of Rights. The word does appear in the Declaration of Independence, but this document has little legal standing as compared to the Constitution.

Pagans should not be allowed to have their own chaplain in the US Congress because they do not believe in GOD as the Master and the Creator of the universe. This is in contradiction to the US Constitution that declares GOD as the source of human authority on earth. Obviously, if a sect or a group of people claim that they are spiritual and supposedly have a clear conscience that does not mean they believe in GOD. In fact, most of them (Pagans) deny the very presence of God. Therefore, Pagans are NOT entitled to a religious representative (i.e., a Chaplin) in any official or governmental setting.

On the other hand, any religion that observes GOD as the source of life in this universe should be allowed to have their own Chaplain in the US Congress provided that their followers are upholding and abiding by the US Constitution as the sole and source of authority over their existence as Americans in USA.

To Henry James:

While Pagans don't proselytize, I have to admit a smile came to my lips when I read that the shining examples of Paganism you have seen here have given you reason to look in the direction of Paganism as your own path. Regardless of how that Path may manifest, may I offer you a heartfelt welcome to the broad circle of traditions that are Pagan and hope you will find your own place at the hearth?

No idea what you're trying to say, there, Andre.

It doesn't make sense to me: Paganism is not a creedal, authoritarian or proselytizing faith: we find our paths through a value on awareness of the effects of our actions combined with an observation that doing harm is bad for all concerned.

We worship the Gods we find in the world and our traditions, ...this isn't about 'leading anyone astray,' ...in fact, there's a lot of safeguards against this sort of thing *because* of the way we deal with authority.

We're personally accountable for our paths, with the Gods' help, not living in a world where we try and follow someone else's commands and hope that if we don't do anything 'wrong' that there'll be good.

It's much more direct: there's simply no mortal fear of being damned for 'error.' To us, the universe just doesn't work that way.

We expect to deal with the effects of our actions more immediately and for a longer time than judgement-based systems seem to, ...for you, it's like, 'Heaven or Hell, then it's all over.'

To us, it goes on. Darn skippy we pay attention where we're going. :)

Pursuit of Popularity and Comfort
Religion, Souls, and Power.
------------------------------------------

In the pursuit of popularity and comfort, many of us lost so much that we do not even realize till one day, at the last minute from the last hour of the night of our life, when to say good bye to the world, God open our eyes and tears are coming down and we do not have the right to tell any one because our mouth is shut, our muscles become disable, our eyes may see but all sorry to say to others stay away from.... and our followers will go where we told them to go and if it was a mistake, they still will go because God removes our power to control our life. He takes total control over it at time of death and after death.

We love the help of every one in this society. It is not God who condemns us to make choices, we do make them because we have more than one masters and who is the best among them? We made them because we fought for it. But our choices cause us to suffer in many ways. They are poor choices even though we call them great. But we can convert them into greatness when we realize there still is a chance in life to change. May be this can be the one thing good about religion, do not like it, walk away, it is not good for me, I am free to walk away. When I found the one I like, I will stick to it. Can we walk away from all religions when we believe that it is not good for our souls?
Is there anything wrong with that? No.

However, in our desire to be accepted the way we are condemns us to make not much effort to see the real world we live in. It is not easy to do something about it because God gives freedom, we transform it into license. Our message is based upon our feeling and our imagination and we project it into reality of life. This is where we may all go if nothing can stop us.

The reality is why do I feel this way and express myself that way? Whatever I say may be true to me, it may help me because I have been chosen for it. But, what if my peer follows me and get into troubles. This leaves us with our destiny in life. But, we do not have the same destiny. One of our purposes in life is to strive to understand our destiny and work upon it. If it is tragic, do not invite any one else into it.

Religion, Souls, and Power

Andre

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Dear Chaplain, your final statement is exactly the problem, and unwittingly puts the lie to your stated respect for the beliefs of others.

If you cannot manage the same compassion for a dying pagan, because you are stuck (and I use that term without rancor) on the personal belief that there cannot be peace after death for a non-Christian, then you really should not be a military chaplain.

Try this instead: Pagans are not ignorant of the Father, they have simply chosen a different path. If you were to offer a prayer to your God to light the pagan's path, I think you will find it to be more than sufficient for the pagan's "failure" to meet your expectations.

That's the thing I keep trying to tell em, Greg, ...once you start compromising on liberty and equality...

It never ends.

Look real careful how you treat us, Christians.

Pattern is,

You'll be getting it from each other an eyeblink later.

Frank,

Just wondering something here. You've stated "all christians have a common thread - as do all jews."

What is your opinion then, of the popes recent redeclaration that christians who are not catholic are not christian and that noncatholic churches are not real churches because they don't trace the lineage of their bishops back to the original apostles as is stated that the catholics do. He has also started a directive to restore the Latin only mass and also has made remarks against other christian denominations for not useing latin only.

It doesn't sound like they are following much of a common thread here.

"But I must say, in a matter where a death is involved, hope goes along way, but without knowing who our Father is and His offer of mercy and grace thru His Son Jesus Christ, it leaves a hopeless situation that is difficult to comfort."

You have to understand, Chaplain, that Pagans are not Christians, ...we don't need 'comfort and mercy' from your Jesus because we don't see death in terms of your Hell.

It's only 'hopeless' to *you,* apparently, not to Pagans.

Is it so hard to understand, that we don't rely on your religion for *hope?* We've got out own, and , frankly, it doesn't involve being 'saved' by a God we're supposed to fear. Death is its own thing as it is, but it's not the same kind of existential terror in our religion. We feel pain, we get scared, we usually don't want to go, just now, ...like anyone else, but we trust the Universe isn't out to get us. :)

I've done a fair bit of comforting, myself, in some pretty dark places, for people of all manner of religions. Being of a minority faith, the question of differing belief came up pretty quick, but the answer's as simple.

You focus on *their* needs, not yours.

I don't think you really *give* hope, in a sense. You just help people find it when they're otherwise tending to think they can't find it.

Folks in a tough circumstance need *human caring,* not orthodoxy, anyway. The most powerful magic of all this is much simpler. You show that 'Help exists,' and hope shines.

Maybe you fear that people who 'don't recognize your father' have no hope.

Everyone seems to know Mother. You don't have to say it. :)

A Chaplain: **But I must say, in a matter where a death is involved, hope goes along way, but without knowing who our Father is and His offer of mercy and grace thru His Son Jesus Christ, it leaves a hopeless situation that is difficult to comfort.**

Which is another reason why "minority" faiths should have access to a chaplain who understands and shares their beliefs, so that s/he can offer sincere comfort and empathy. For you to offer comfort to the family/friends of a Wiccan who dies in the line of duty makes you feel like a hypocrite, because you honestly believe that the person is damned to hell.

As a Chaplain myself, our purpose is to provide comfort compassion and hope. We put aside our denominations and minister to the persons needs. I know I always ask if a person has a particular religion and I respect their beliefs. I ask first if they would like prayer and don't take for granted that they do. We don't have answers to most questions but we do offer compassion and comfort. If a person has no particular belief I don't push mine on them at this critical time. It's not the place for evangelism. We'll just sit and talk, (pray if they would like).
But I must say, in a matter where a death is involved, hope goes along way, but without knowing who our Father is and His offer of mercy and grace thru His Son Jesus Christ, it leaves a hopeless situation that is difficult to comfort.
In His name, Peace, Love and Hope to ya all!

ATHENA, is that web site, not my web site but "that" web site any less professional or difficult to read or contradictory than the Bible, Qu'ran, Book of Mormon or anything Pagans have to offer. Does the dress of the messenger have anything to do with the message?

Nothing hurts like the truth. The truth should feel good and does to all but liars.

If the CONTENT of that web site offends then make a good self examination. If the DRESS offends then you're only looking at the superficial. Jesus couldn't afford razor blades ya know so He wore a beard. Maybe that fellow can't afford professionals to do a professional glossied up job. After all, his FAITH is taxed, he charges nothing, not even advetising and refuses donations, (Like Jesus said for His ministers to do?).

You must love Hollywood what with all the tinsel and glitter,, like American beer kinda lacking in body don't you think? That web site has a lot of body with plenty of muscle in all the right places.

I'm with the wiccans/pagans etc., on this, since I usually support the underdog. I loathe dogma.

But basically, I think the military has no business providing "chaplains" of any sort, since that position, structurally, serves to facilitate the Killing Job. You train'em to kill, and the chaplains comfort them about the killing. Talk about cynical...

Oh, I do wish "Starhawk" would provide normal photos of herself. Her otherworldly gaze, in the one supplied here, is a bit hokey. (PS: It's also a stylistic innovation developed by Alexander the Great's court artists--not exactly good company, Starhawk!)

frank collins,
I figured I would make a breif coment on one of your many interesting postings,

"does a druid chaplain understand the asatru cerimonies? does one asatru pray the same as all other asatru's?

all christians have a common thread - as do all jews. "

I have a slight difference of oppion on this staement as from my various years of study I am lead to belief that it would be far more likely that a Druid Chaplin would indeed have at the very least a working knowledge of Asatru cerimonies than say a (example) Southern Baptist minister would of a basic Roman Catholic service (Both being ofcourse part of what is the Christian religion)
Now I will agree that it may be easier for say one Protestant minister to lead a service for a different Protestant church (example say a Lutheran minister running a Methodist service.) Than say a Morman minister (still considered Christian religion) performing a Pentacostal Holiness chruches service (again a Christian church).

Just a thought..

Ooops. A T H E N A, "Merry Meet!"

Here is A Wiki on "ROGATION DAY" as I was 85% right! And thanks for Correcting me too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogation_days

"Blessed Be!" O.K. O.K, I'll meet yous half way if I could & i know WE will. Hay, In America & With LORD/ECLATi, anything is Possible! Ya Ya.

I haven't found any pictures of the Rally...Does anyone know where some may be posted?

Blessed Be
~)O(~

"Lox Et Veritas!"

Would that be the Smoked Salmon of Truth? I think you mean "Lux et Veritas". :D

Never heard of Rogation Day - is that when they give out the Sacred Rogaine?

However, Pentecost (or Ascention Day) is close to the beginning of May, or Beltaine.

Pagans - at least those of us who are Wiccans and Druids - follow the Celtic calendar for our major holidays. We have 8 in a year, approximately one every 6 weeks. They correspond with the solstices and equinoxes, as well as four dates falling between them, or "Cross-Quarter Days". They are:

Yule (Dec. 21st, or Winter Solstice)
Imbolc (Feb. 2nd)
Ostara (Mar. 21st or Spring Equinox)
Beltane (May 1st)
Litha or Midsummer (June 21st or Summer Solstice)
Lammas or Lughnasa (August 1st)
Mabon (Sep. 21st or Fall Equinox)
Samhain (Oct 31st)

I can't speak for the Asatruar as to whether they celebrate the cross-quarter days.

BGONE: I think that a lot more people would take that website seriously if it looked more professional. It looks like the ramblings of a paranoid conspiracy theorist with a rudimentary knowledge of HTML. If you're going to push your website as a valid source for an argument, at least have the decency to make it coherent instead of amateur hour. When researching something, I look at a LOT of websites. Stuff with multiple colors and a lot of rambling gets a quick visit to my "back" button.

Well said CHRISTOPHER W CHASE. I'm a little slow myself and have been unable to discover the MOTIVE, WHY one would start a Pagan ministry. What with your insight and originality I'm waiting to hear.

"Listen, if you have ears" and I'm all ears momentarily.

In case the question baffles you, here's a hint.

Have you seen http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul yet? It says the MOTIVE, WHY ministries are begun is economic, money with the big money going to those who lead the multitudes to hell.

From that vantage point of knowledge we can examine the "freedom" to start ministries supposedly afforded all in the USA.

Frank's just mad cause 'he' can't define us, so he prefers to cut and paste to try to prove.. something..

Frank Collins wrote:

"...some nut cases wanting to be a pagan - when no one actually can define what a pagan is, does not mean they get chaplains...yes this is a cut and paste - but how else do you show that there is no common thread between these groups and that they are not entitled to chaplains as no chaplain can actually minister to the others."

Christopher responds:

Mr. Collins, regardless of your perspective, it does no one any good for you to simply repeat falsehoods that many (including myself) have refuted elsewhere in this discussion and in the academic literature (see Alan Cooperman's blog entry), nor it is helpful for you to copy and paste unattributed material (even openly) from some source, without telling anyone how it allegedly fits into your argument or contention. Plagiarism is never helpful in a serious discussion of either religion nor anything else.

JOZEVZ, you gotta be kidding. The ministry WORK? Wash you mouth out with Bon Ami. The whole idea behind being a minister is to avoid WORK.

It's the morality of the situation. W,O,R,K is a four letter word and we know all four letter words are immoral. Now take B,U,S,H for example. Whatever are they doing out there in the bush? Ya ya yourself. Oops! Can't do that, it's immoral too.

US army must have fair representation of pagan chaplain. Pagans believes in naturalistic world view. They worship nature in form of gods and godess.Pagan gods donot author holy books,donot
impose code of conduct,donot force people to worship otherwise be burned eternally in hell.They are as silent as nature.
Believers of Abrahamic faith say's "praise the lord'.
Pagans says,"curse the lord for immense suffering
of mankind".
"Praise the cow for giving us milk free".

well, Concerned, you seem to enjoy defaming others. To what end? Again, I repeat- How 'Christian' of you. You don't even take into account those people who wrote in FROM IRAQ themselves who are in the best position of all to talk about their experiences with those other Pagans around them. Enough Pagans on bases to warrant not only a chaplain but to have a place to hold their circles.

How many meets your criteria? If there were only a few Christians on a base, you get to be the one to tell them they can't have a chaplain cause their numbers are 'too small'

I find it interesting that anytime someone posts responses you put your hands over your ears and seem to enjoy calling people 'cults' and going 'show me stats show me stats' and then when people do, you go 'lalalala can't hear you.."

Any Pagan Chaplain should be versed in all forms of Paganism. As well as other religions if they are needed. They are there to serve all. Get over yourself.

It's OK, Terra. I've... Got my reasons. It's a little complicated. :)

Mostly that I don't serve as an HPS, and that's what the title usually means in the communities I've served in. :)

'Real name,' though. That sounds like what *they* say. I still look at my legal name kind of funny, sometimes. Got used to my street/magical name. :)

PP, Sister it is...that is a title I hope you will return.

I use the title Lady as an arrogance at times..and sometimes as a point. I am also Rev. But I like the title Lady better...it is from my religion, not something I have to take to fit into the square hole. But I have to sign Rev. Keir Gazelle on marrage licenses...even though KG is not my real name. At least in louisiana you are allowed your religious name.

terra

Concerned, don't make merepeat: There are more Pagans serving openly in the military than Muslims. Muslims have a whole bunch of chaplains.

All chaplains are expected to perform the vast majority of their duties for people of whatever faith comes to them. Actually, this is largely administrative.

Pagans not being represented has everything to do with people who want to deny Pagans legitimacy.

None of these 'pagan cults' you list are 'cults,' and most of them aren't Pagan.

*Pagans* however, are *quite used to being part of a much larger and very diverse religious community, thanks.*

We don't see 'orthodoxy' in the same way you do.

This means that the problem with our diversity is *yours,* not *ours.* You have a problem with the competency of chaplains, question the ability to serve of those Christian sects which *cannot* respect the diversity of faiths and non-faiths that exist *for real* in the military *now.*

"Oh yes Lord PP ( for lack of knowledge), I sure do!"

"Sister" works. I don't really go by titles. I only ask anyone to call me "Reverend" (or "Lady," if I'm feeling snippy) when someone insists I call them "Father" and is a jerk about returning the courtesy.

:)

Lepi!
Oh Next year PSG...!

Maybe we can gang up and go...
I loved falling asleep with the distant drumming like a heartbeat.Dancing the with the heartbeat of the Mother...me and moon and fire, and over it all the heartbeat.

Oh and stopping by Caffena's for coffee on the way to the Village Green for morning meeting. Haveing a morning dance to the drums..a wonderful way to get the blood pumping and the spirit singing.

Driving through that magick gate,then missing it so bad when we had to leave at the end of the week. It is always such a culture shock after I get home.

Lepi, now I am homesick too.
Next year Home.
terra

Anon,

Your leap into the meaning of:

"They give a chart on page 25 showing that 11 out of every 100 military members choose either "other religions, refused or unknown". (this does NOT include
Buddhism, Muslim, etc)

If only one out of these 11 are Pagan or Wiccan, that would mean a very large number. One out of every 100 servicemembers would be 14,000 (out of 1.4 million active duty service members.)"

Sorry this wishful thinking is not going to convince any court of law. And again, considering the number of US military bases (6702) you still end up with on average of two "might be" Pagans per base. And what Pagan cults' chaplain would you want to serve these two?
Buddhism, Shintoism, Native American Religions, Hinduism, Taoism, Wicca, Druidism, Asatru, Shamanism, Neo-Paganism and Eclectic Paganism????

Terra,

I loved drumming at PSG, but even more than that, I love dancing to the drumming. All those different rhythms weaving around and through each other to form a music that was so much more than the sum of its parts. Dancing until the drum beats became indistinguishable from my heartbeat.
And the singing, especially Spiral Rhythm and Coyote Run...I get homesick thinking about it.

Concerned, since you seem to enjoy spamming every blog , here's some new information. Chew on this.

America's Military Population" by David R. Segal and MadyWechsler Segal from
the Population Reference Bureau states that there is a lower rate of affiliation
with mainstream religion within the US Military as compared to the civilian
sector.

They give a chart on page 25 showing that 11 out of every 100 military members
choose either "other religions, refused or unknown". (this does NOT include
Buddhism, Muslim, etc)

If only one out of these 11 are Pagan or Wiccan, that would mean a very large
number. One out of every 100 servicemembers would be 14,000 (out of 1.4 million
active duty service members.)

One out of every 100 veterans would be 264,000 out of 26.4 million vets. Numbers
came from www.census.gov.

Using their research, the number of persons who could ask for a Pentacle
Headstone over the next 30 years is quite large and growing. If only 1/4 of
these persons requested a Pentacle Headstone instead of a civilian one, that
would be near 70,000.

Rev. Russell
IIMM/MPN

THe numbers in the US civiilian and military populations are growing all the time.
These stats don't even consider those who identified as some sort of Abrahamic religion solely to avoid repercussions and retaliation, some of which can be quite harsh.

We're here, willing to fight and die for what America stands for, and you don't think we're worthy of being represented in a time of need. Nice. Very 'Christian' of you.

By your same logic, if there were only a few thousand 'identified' Christians, they wouldn't warrant a Chaplain to talk to?

All we are asking for is for what is taken for granted by everyone else.

http://www.milpagan.org/media/statistics.html is the cited source of the # of Pagans in the US military. A Defense Department reference would be the only real source of accurate information.

But let us do the math anyway: 4300 Pagans/6702 military bases (http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2004/01bases.htm) or less than one Pagan per base on average.

There are probably more Pagans working for Wallmart. Maybe they should add a few Pagan chaplins to the "welcomers".

And there are probably a heck of a lot more atheists in the military. Another positive for atheism. No chaplins required!!

And with so few Pagans in the military, why are we discussing this issue?????

Amazing how important Frank has made us in his life. Amazing his take on power and of course money. Tells us a lot about Frank and how he thinks.

We have a joke about the difference between New Age Religion and Wicca, a decimal point. Wicca is usually much cheaper. Most the events that I know of have other ways to pay if you can't afford the money, including just helping out. I have never heard of any Wiccan leader that ever got rich off of being a Wiccan leader, usually the reverse, because they take on more than their fair load of the costs and effort. leaders serve their members, not the other way around. A leader with an ego problem is worthless in Wicca.

I guess the thing that would drive Frank nutty is the fact that most Wiccans I know don't have quite as great of interest in money an power as is common in many of the larger religions. We are our own priests and priestess, most of us are solitary so no one is making money off of us. We don't have a great leader to tell us how to believe and what to do, nor make a lot of money off of us like some mainline religions. Even covens tend keep small because they work best that way when you have a small group of people who know each other and trust each other.

The more people in a group the bigger the chance for tension and conflict. I have seen that in even a small church of less than 25 people in my town.

Wiccan is for the person who prefers to run their own life and take responsibility for their own actions. A follower does not ever make a good Wiccan. What with some general principle like the Rede and Rule of Three as guides, it is hard to end up doing much harm in this world. After all everything you do comes right back. Talk about a wake up call.

If we foul up then it is our responsibility to go clean up the mess and put things to rights. What we don't learn and deal with this time around we face the next time around. Lessons keep being presented until we notice the lesson and learn them. There is no forgiveness, all debts are paid in full. So we learn to get into less trouble and to develop ourselves.

The biggest part of magic is never changing the world or someone else, but in changing yourself. That is where happiness comes from, within. Magic requires mundane work and effort as well, doesn't break the rules of physics. Most everyone does it all the time, they just don't call it by name or learn how it works.

Sorry no instant change, no thunder clouds forming overhead, no lightening from the finger tips. A lot more subtle, and lot more work, but because it is slower than "Hollywood type", you see what is developing and change direction if you don't like where it is going.

It also requires knowing exactly what you want, being aware of the ripple effect and perhaps unexpected consequences. As a result it is not normally something done on the spur of the moment and never something done on an emotional binge. Then you still have to do the mundane work to compete the results. No free ride, you have to earn what you get or you don't get it.

It is that mundane work part that soons moves the fakes out of Wicca. They are too lazy to do the work. Far too boring for the those that watch the "Hollywood version". Again only offers some control over yourself and your own life. Frank would not like it, I am afraid.

I see the Muslims have taken to ignoring Frank Collins, so he's started in on the Pagans. Bad news, Frank, both religions believe it is forbidden to criticize another person's faith.
I'm Catholic, though, so I can remind you that you are an ignorant jerk and seriously un-Christlike in your attitude.

Circle In
(words & music by Peter Conover)
CIRCLE IN words & music by Peter Conover (c) 1999

For Circle, Celebrating 25 years, Samhain, 1999

when they misunderstand you and fear what you know
persecution returns as the ignorance grows
so it's time for your circle to put out the word
to speak up for your rights and make liberty heard

circle in, circle in, circle again
circle in, circle in, circle again
circle-in,circle- n, circle again
circle in, circle in, circle

if they try to evict you because of your path
if they take your child from you for doing witchcraft
if they hate what you are and despise what you do
then return to your circle and we'll stand with you

circle in, circle in, circle again
circle in, circle in, circle again
circle in, circle in, circle again
circle in, circle in, circle

when you've got city hall or the taxman to fight
or the misinformation of the paranoid right
if your freedom of worship is ever denied
there's a circle to call and there's no need to hide

circle in, circle in, circle again
circle in, circle in, circle again
circle in, circle in, circle again
circle in, circle in, circle

the owl gives a warning and the wind takes a change
coyotes are howling and the thunder feels strange
so watch the direction when the fox makes her run
and return to your circle to see the work done

circle in, circle in, circle again
circle in, circle in, circle again
circle in, circle in, circle again
circle in, circle in, circle

copyright 2001 Peter Conover

Oh yes Lord PP ( for lack of knowledge), I sure do!

Its time like this that tries men's souls...ain't it? But isn't that what we be for?

Circle in, Circle in!

If you want to have appeplexy (sp) go to Military.org. Click on the join discussion on the article about Wiccans and the Arlington Ceminary. Then breath...I am some number instead of an id. name. Pages 8 and 9.

Some dufus wanted to dig up all those buried under the Pent and "sanctify" them. One wanted to bury all Pagans on unhallowed ground, off to some dark corner maybe.

One claimed to be an ex Wiccan...yes, as if my Pa-gar, or any Pagans pa-gar would not have picked up on a lier. He was talking about we were after power and money. LOL...boy did he have the wrong religion.
But there were some who were opposite. They were for equal rights for all military..if you fought for the constitution, you deserved to have its protection.
check it out...but Breeeeath..lol.
terra

Hee, Terra. Gods, the 'Muggle world' do give you tension headaches, don't it? :)

(love that word, if we're gonna be accused of some conspiracy behind Harry Potter, I will call the Flatlanders this. :) )

Ennit just fun to be called 'Irrational and Unamerican' by people that just need lessons in both logic and civics?

*shouting: I'd have taught you this in *high school* if you didn't think I was unfit to be around children, unlike the sanctified pederasts! How bout a stem cell for the glands I burned out scraping up your wreckage?

(major rant censored in the name of interfaith relations)

Ahem.

Too long a day, here. :) Sometimes I just feel like Gramma posted me to Wierdzo World. :)

Or possibly I was just that curious what 'adding insult to injury' meant. :)

This global warming benefit's just been spinning the hits, though.

"It's times like these, we learn to live again.."

"It's times like these we learn to love again...."

*breathing.* Know what I mean, Lady Keir? :)

*laugh*

PP,
So right.
The first "gathering" I went to was Florida Pagan Gathering. Amazing. Specially when the drumming got the alligators roaring...it was mating season, and seems Harriot was looking for Harry. lol.

I will be going to my Group Gathering at Harvest Home (Mabon). A week in a place on top of Snowshoe mountain in West Va. I can not wait!

We can hope PSG is in the cards for us. I will be with some in my group...

It really is a Pagan village for a week.

Last time I went, I had pulled a muscle and it was bothering me. I was standing in line at the coffee shop (Caffenia's) and a young man walked up and asked if he could do Reiki on me. I stood there and he took the worse of the pain away..then a woman walked up and told me to stop by her tent for some ointment she made.

That is PSG...home.

terra

And, hee, Terra. I know some folks on the East Coast who set out a pretty darn good festival, too, but, yeah, maybe next year PSG. :)

First big festival I ever made was *really* the day I got off the street and felt, in a social sense, I'd come home.

Just a sample, I suppose, but, even a 'vacation' run on our terms is something to see, indeed. Amazing what we can do when we're actually in a world of our own for a while. ;)

Hee, Victoria, let's see if I can remember one of mine off the fingers...

"This is not the way it ends,
And not the way a fire to wood
A dance of madness lends
And might continue if it could:

What oak would touch a match to arm
And blaze against the still and dark?
By stance it calls a greater harm
And dares the sky let down a spark."

PP,
I missed it for the last two years..but I am hopeing for next year. I have a brand new tent and camp stove.

Paganplace, PSG is the best. It is like nothing ever experienced...we all do our part, I usually work first aid. I hope maybe next year you can make it and we can meet...and that goes for any Pagan here.
Opening night is so wonderful... see this in your minds eye...
You are waiting at your tent door, it is solid dark out... you hear a drum and foot steps approaching... you see flickering candles, you pick up your candle and step out and join the moving river of Pagans, each with a candle lighting the dark. The drum thumps and you nod at those you pass as they join "as a drop of rain, flowing to the ocean"...you walk the road, not a sound but the drum keeping caddance and the footsteps. Then you come to the Stone Circle and you are surrounded with magick, you walk through incense and under crossed swords, you feel the blessings, the past and the future. The huge bonfire is not yet lit... you wait...and then the drums start ...30, 40 drums, flutes, harps, all calling the dancers. They arrive...the fire dancers...they leap and twirl, they spit great leaping flames from their mouths...they leap and they circle the oak filled pit and light the sacred fire. Sparklers are handed out and every one celebrates the start of PSG...we have come home.
That fire will not be allowed to go out during that week...

All Pagans must experience PSG once before they die.

It's the place we call home...also about 300 workshops, concerts every night, about 100 venders...did I say there were venders? A great coffee shop...afternoon concerts...venders...all on 260 acres of rolling hills.
terra

trees as prayer forms

stretch out thy woody arms to god
they are always upraised in praise
ascending from the earthy sod
reverant, devoted, all your days

victoria

Not I, Terra, though I've been to a few similar gatherings. Was wishing I could have made it to PSG this year, though, ...travel's a bit tough for me, of late, but I do miss these things. :)

Thanks PP...
The song is by a member of Spiral Rhythm...one of my favorite Pagan groups. http://myspace.com/spiralrhythm
www.spiralrhythm.com

One Spirit
(PJ Seale 2000)

One spirit in the dark,
Like a candle waivers.
Many spirits joined as one,
Burn with the power of the blazing sun.
There is strength in community,
A circle empowering you and me.
The circle binds yet sets us free,
In the Goddess’ name, so mote it be.
---------------
Look Within
(Christian Williamson 1999)
Look into the eyes of the lady fair.
Look into the eyes of the lord in there.
Look into the eyes of the lady fair.
Look into the eyes of the lord in there.
Look to the mirror, look to the glass.
Look to the future, look to the past.
Look to the strong, look to the wise.
Look to the power within your eyes.
------------
The Mother’s Heart
(PJ Seale 2001)

The mother’s heart reverberates
In the ground beneath your feet.
And the drummers’ hands they translate
Into a pounding beat.
And the pounding fuels the dancers
As they twist and leap and twirl.
And the dancers feed the chanters
As their melodies they spin.
And all will feed the fire
Flames leap to kiss the night.
And all of this together
Is the goddess brought to life.

Drummers drumming in the night
Feel the beat.
Bodies writhe by fire light
Bathed in heat.
A web of melody does sound both
High and sweet
Heed the goddess when she calls
Calls her children one and all.
Celebrate the fire ‘round
Dance, drum and sing ‘til the earth does pound.
Dance, drum and sing ‘til the earth does pound.
Dance, drum and sing ‘til the earth does pound.
------------

Any Pagan on this board ever been to Pagan Spirit Gathering?

terra

frank collins:
well i see that fat looney starfraud and her minions are here.

; ) Wow!! I'm a Minion, I'm a Minion!

terra

Well, one of those votes might be mine, just on general principle. Think we need the HPS'es more, though. ;)

Nice song. :)

Gaby,
I thank you for the deep compliment. I am extremely political and love debate about it. I think I would make a terrible politician though...lol. My religion would inform my policies and there would be laws for communal gardens and everyone would have to start driveing horse and buggies (it's also good for the roses)..Universal healthcare..and religious right types would have to go away to camp...maybe Starhawk's workshops and one week at PSG...LOL!And they would have to attend a drum circle...and get rid of the husk and callases they have formed over their spirits.

Dance, My Children, Dance
(PJ Seale 2002)

I call the earth, the fire, the wind and rain
Dance my children dance
To guide you on this mortal plane
While you, dance children dance

I made the ground soft beneath your feet
So you could, dance children dance
And the fire to bathe you with it’s heat
While you, dance children dance

I made the rain to fall to cool you down
While you, dance children dance
And the wind to blow you dry again
While you, dance children dance
I made the sun by day and the moon at night
So you could, dance children dance
So you’re always in my loving light
While you, dance children dance
And you dance with the
Sun and the moon and the wind and the rain
And you dance with the earth and you dance with the flame
And you dance with the stars in the velvet sky
All things dance in the circle of life

So I call you to my circle now
Dance my children dance
In peace and love and togetherness
May you, dance children dance
Always, dance children dance
All things dance, children dance

I am afraid I would get about three votes..lol.

Many Blessings,
Lady Keir

Oh, and, yes, there is formal Pagan training: Cherry Hill represents the most like a 'seminary,' actually calling itself that, but there are many trads with very formal training, the ATC, an outfit or two in Salem, ...not to mention a lot of networking among our very-overworked clergy: wherever there's a festival, there's probably a teaching trad somewhere behind it, in fact.

"I certainly didn't mean to imply that Lady Keir is confused about the Priestess/Presidenthood"

Oh, I didn't mean to imply you were: just that it tends to be presumed about 'religion' by some, that all religions must have domination of others politically as a goal.

It just seems to be a common confusion: after all, the 'religions of the book' worship a God in terms of a *ruler* of sorts, and one all must emulate: we don't have these presumptions in Paganism, and I think it shows: really all the Lords and Ladies and such you may hear of is at its heart a little subversive, and about personal and group sovereignty as compared to the outside world: in practice, they're honorifics that are earned and then taken on, not 'conferred' in the sense of authority in the same way.

PaganPlace,

I certainly didn't mean to imply that Lady Keir is confused about the Priestess/Presidenthood.

I just meant to say that if she, or someone like her, ran, I'd probably vote for her!

Also, I do not project anything unto anyone. How could I, I am Eclati-on. ;-)

Blessed be!

I think there are such things as Pagan seminaries, for example the Cherry Hill Seminary (I don't know what state in America that it is in). Many covens have a structure that requires training to ascend various degrees, and the training for third degree can be very rigourous indeed and confer upon the recipient the title of High Priestess, or High Priest, or the equivalent terminology relevant to the tradition.

Ok, that was a little flippant, J, it's in my own contract with the Gods: I'm Allowed To Complain. :)

Really, for my particular path, it's unseemly to go claiming titles. People call you stuff, and you do the work. I do have some credentials kicking around, but I haven't had to flash them in a long time.

Pardon if I don't explain. :)

Well, J, there's formal training, and there's also people calling you that enough that you'd better start shovelling. :)

Paganplace

You said : "You might wanna meet some actual Pagan clergy sometime. :)"

How do one become a member of the Pagan clergy? Is there a formal process? We all know that Christianity and Islam do have a formal process of being members of the clergy/ulema, including studying formally and getting degrees in theology or Shariah and such, and formal recognition by the church (in Christianity) and state (in Islam). Acceptance by adherents is another matter:)

"How about it, Lady Keir, are you up running for office?"

I'm pretty sure the good Lady isn't confused about the difference between Priestess and President, actually.

I'm surprised how many times I've found these ambitions projected onto us this week, actually.

We don't have this idea of establishing a 'Kingdom of God' on Earth... Get it? Foreign idea to us. For government, we like America just fine.

Just wanna participate.

Really.

Sorry, I meant to say: ....on Pagan fallen soldiers' headstones.....

Sharoney and Titania,

I have had my fair share of run-ins with Frank have told numerous times to be civil (not in such nice terms). I have since concluded that ignoring him is the best medicine.

My Pagan friends,

For the Administration and the Pentagon to recognize your religion as a legitimate one and agreeing to putting pentagrams on Pagan fallen soldiers is already winning the war. A few skirmishes (such as getting a military chaplain) may still need to be fought, but I believe they will be minor. The validation of your faith has been made and that was a major victory. That is the ice cream so to speak and all the rest will be the cherries and whip cream on top!

As far as voting for a pagan? Absolutely, as long as their values agree with mine.

How about it, Lady Keir, are you up running for office?

Woo-hoo! Thank you Sharoney. Frank has displayed the most un-Christ-like behaivior I have seen in a long time. I am not Wiccan or neo-pagan, but I find Starhawk to at least be honest and fair. Neither she nor the other posters on this site desrved the juvenile insults Frank has batted about here. Thank you, again.

Hey, glad you were there, Athena. Yeah, looks like the storm warning didn't come to much. :) Was definitely thinking of the folks there. :)

Didn't find any media coverage, except of course for this board.

And, Sharoney, Frank's a troll with some form of xenophobic Tourette's. He's been attacking anything Pagan since we refused to join in on his anti-Muslim hate-fest.

Hey. Frank, are you really an adult, or just some bored teenager who can't find summer employment? Why do Pagans threaten you to the point where you have to show up and lob silly insults? You sound like a loutish construction worker heckling women passersby inbetween stuffing a hoagie into his filthy mouth. (Maybe for you that's a compliment; I have no idea. I can only go by what you've written.)

I am Christian and have nothing against Paganism; it's all good. (Must be the Irish in me; both sides, all the way back.) But you are acting like a fool and a boor and if you are trying to score points for Christianity, I'm ashamed to have the likes of you speaking for the rest of us.

Give it a rest. Go back to playing with your Grand Theft Auto game and Cheetos and leave us alone, unless you actually have something of substance to say.

As for the rest of you, I wish I could have been in Washington with you. It sounded like a powerful event and I would have learned something over and above the little they print in the MSM. Peace and Happy Independence Day!

Whoops... hit the post button too quickly. Here's a link about the first grave marked with a pentagram that was dedicated at Arlington Cemetary:

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=47162

Blessed be, everyone!

When I get home, I'll try to post the pics that I took on Photobucket. I had to shut down the computer last night because of the thunderstorms. :(

Athena,
Thanks for the info. I have been trying to find information on it all day. I wanted to be there but it's just too far.

You all were thought of and energy sent..

Blessings,
terra

Vie,
We have an hierarchy...and seminaries.

We do not have a hierarchy as far as an over all leader, like the President of Pagans, (though King Kevin will not agree with that...lol)But in each Tradition we have smaller groups that are set up independent of other groups within that Trad. They are covens...and that coven normally has two leaders that are normally third degree-clergy.

We also have seminaries and schools. But most go to Universities for professional degrees as part of their third degrees in their covens.

I am an Elder in a Wiccan Church run by the only Pagan Chaplain in the California prison system. He is also affiliated with Circle Santuary and Selena Fox, he also does much work for Lady Liberty League.

We have educated people...and Vie, thanks for the good words. I would vote for you also.

terra

No question, there are enough service members who self-identify as pagans to provide them with their own chaplains. From what I have observed, military chaplains have to occasionally minister to believers of other faiths, and it seems like pagans would be uniquely suited to bring comfort to others.
My question is more on the mechanics: Since the faith is non-hierarchical, and doesn't seem to have a concept of seminary training, how will the military choose candidates for the job? I know they've got some kind of procedure in the case of other non-hierarchical faiths....
As for the other half, I think we should stop looking at what club politicians belong to, and pay more attention to what values their previous actions have demonstrated. If a pagan running for office held to the kind of values we've seen from the pagans on this site, I'd be thrilled to vote for her.

Looking forward to hearing more about the demonstration and ritual in Lafayette Park across the White House. Anybody know of any write up. I have yet to check but I believe BBC was one.

Athena, thanks for sharing news of the rally. It sounds beautiful and powerful. I always think of Lady Liberty as the American Brigid--holding up her sacred flame above the waters of New York harbor. I too am very concerned about the legacy of hurt and post traumatic stress that we are creating in the soldiers of all faiths who will be coming back from Iraq--let alone the physical injuries, and the inadequate care provided for so many. I hope our Pagan community can rally support to provide some of the healing that will be needed. Blessings--and thanks for taking that stand, Starhawk

yoyo,

I have no idea why I am Wiccan, why this is the path I am comfortable on...why it makes better sense then Christianity. I do know that I did not get a knock on the door one Saturday morning with someone on the other side, waiting to tell me of their good news. I had to seek for knowledge...I had no one anxious to lead me to Their god. I had to go through the ordeal...I had to find a teacher. We have no billboards, no missionaries...and most people have no Wiccans to learn from, until they happen on someone willing and qualified to teach them.
I was raised Christian, but born a Witch.

terra

Paganplace,

Not to worry. The rally was in Lafayette Square Park, about halfway between the WH and the Veterans Administration building. It was over around 3:30 PM. (It was lovely, BTW). The rain hadn't even started by the time I left at 3:30. The folks that were left were drumming and schmoozing, as well as those cleaning up. We have a lot of experience in dealing with pulling things together quickly to get out of the rain. It's an occupational hazard when one does rituals outside in the summer in the DC area. :D

The ritual itself was fantastic. We invoked Lady Liberty, founding fathers George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and James Madison, all who had significant impact on freedom of religion. We heard from several speakers, both Pagan elders as well as former and current military members. There was a lot of love and respect for those on the Warrior's Path who are safeguarding our freedoms.

Why do we need Pagan Chaplains, one may ask? Because there are approximately 1,500 members of the Armed Forces who claim Wicca, Asatru, Druidry, or some other form of Paganism as their religion. These people are putting their butts on the line for all of us. They have "designated religious group leaders" who are servicemembers that are not chaplains, but are authorized to lead groups. Chaplains, OTOH, can do things that these group leaders cannot. So, it is 100% fair to say Pagan soldiers need a dedicated Chaplain to serve their needs as much as a Catholic, Evangelical, or Jewish soldier does.

To those reading this who weren't at the ritual today, thank you for being there in spirit. We are grateful for your support.

Ian,
Have you ever had your worship invaded by police? Ever been chased out of town because you had a Wiccan shop? Ever had your visitation rights interferred with because you were Pagan and your ex used it against you in a divorce? Ever been fired or denied rights of any kind because you were Pagan? If not...then you are lucky. I have..and I know that every Pagan that I know has faced it some how.

As Pagan clergy I can say that I know no trained Wiccan that has come up through the degrees that would have a problem with power over others. It is basic training... the first year is heavy on ethics and the laws. And that is just for first degree...Most third degrees have studied for at least 8 years...it can be longer.

Ian, 'an it harm none, do what you will...is dogma. It also does not mean do what ye whim, but do what your will is...or your reason for being. It is also says that if you are true to your real Will, you can not harm any one as your will is the Gods will.

Paganus means people of the Earth..or Country person..it was the Roman Christianized slur of calling those who did not want to turn away from their old gods; hicks or ignorant. And you are right...Paganism is no more A religion then Christian is. It is an umbrella term for many religions.

Our brothers and sisters are fighting and dieing in a war that was supposed to be to bring freedom to Iraqis...(exuse #1, 2 or 3..?).They need to have the same kind of counseling as any other soldier. Too many soldiers are coming home with emotional damage...having a chaplain to talk to may help those people. Having a person to talk to that is trained to help deal with life and death useing the terms that Pagans understand would help.

We are not on an island...we have to deal with the same things as any other in society, with the bonus of not having the same kind of support.We need to build those institutions. We also have to police our members that they have standards that we all can be proud of.

That is why I think formal training is a good thing.
terra

"Did you know that in NEW YORK STATE, USA, That the "RABBI'S" of the Baby killing Passover Line annual ritual celebrations, have caused to push through "Legislators" an increasing series of "KOSHER-ENFORCEMENT-LAW(s)" by which PRIVATE citizens of Space-Ship Earth , not PUBLIC, in the food business,"

This is a quirky thing about America, JJ, but, it doesn't bother me. I don't believe in the Jewish religion as such, but in my beliefs, *someone* ought to show some respect to the animals we eat, and when I'm thanking the beasts for my bacon cheeseburger, I'm glad that someone brings at least a modicum of dignity to their killing.

For what it's worth.

Besides, kosher meats represent some market pressure to get some cleaner meat out of agribusiness. I consider that a viable service. :)

IF Pagans were rallying AND there was a tornado, a tornado warning is good enough THEN the Pagans caused it.

There must be a lot of Pagans in Texas, Kansas, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, Mississippi, ah heck the whole *damned* country,, is going to hell AND it's the Pagans fault.

Maybe not, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul says the big money goes to those who lead the multitudes to hell. Are Pagans leading or just refusing to follow?

And, merry meet, Antaeus.

Apologies for the double post and bad spelling, btw, my browser is choking on news feeds. :)

Aww, that's too bad, JJ. Maybe Boston's will be on, they always have a nice display with music on the Esplanade... I used to love to cycle in and watch from the Cambridge side. Very nice. :)

*checking radar* Doesn't look too good for Boston tonight, either. Sure has been stormy, of late.

You know, I'mnot seeing any covereage of the rally at all, here.

You'd think just the novelty might rate a comment somewhere. :)

I am very pleasantly supprised that after several specifically Christian questions the WaPo staff has actually asked one about Paganism in particular. Of course we should have a Pagan chaplain--we came close recently, as a person already a chaplain converted to Wicca and tried to remain a chaplain while switching his affiliation, a process that apparently has been done before, but the military refused to allow this, claiming there weren't any Pagan organizations that met their requirments for sponsoring a Chaplain.

As for voting for a Pagan, even though I am one I would definately have to agree with them on most of the issues as well, esp. the environmental ones which are the issues most important to me. I can't see this happening for awhile except maybe on the mayoral or city level. (wasn't the mayor of Asheville, NC at least very Pagan friendly a few years back?).

As an aside, there actually is in the world a Wiccan who has been apointed to a governmental post--in India. (I'll try to post the link but its hideous long: http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2007-07-02T143626Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_India-282780-1.xml&archived=False)

She is heading a government panel to investigate the causes of, and recomend preventions for, female infanticide. This is a little ironic since in rural India there are still fatal vigilante actions againt suspected Witches and their families on a non infrequent basis.

Whoa, there's some kind of tornado warning in the DC area: they've just evacuated the Capitol mall, which I think is not where the Pagans were rallying till just twenty minutes ago, by schedule: the Capitol Mall is for the fireworks tonight, I believe

Let's all have a 'good thought' for the folks there, though.

And, probably, watch us get blamed. *sigh*

yhea World view, N.Y.City MACY's Fire Works is a Wash. I'm not sure what the rain date. It's one of those, best to watch the parade on T.V.!

*%$@

Whoa, there's some kind of tornado warning in the DC area: they've just evacuated the Capitol mall, which I think is not where the Pagans were rallying till just twenty minutes ago, by schedule: the Capitol Mall is for the fireworks tonight, I believe

Let's all have a 'good thought' for the folks there, though.

And, probably, watch us get blamed. *sigh*

You may find, Yoyo, that your presumptions have little to nothing to do with how actual Pagans find our path.

As to the second part of the question:
Of course, I would vote for a pagan - IF his/her positions on the major issues were compatible with mine. I would not vote for anyone based solely on their faith, any more than I would vote for someone based solely on their race, gender, age, party affiliation, or shoe size.

Tonka Shame W I C C A! Interesting fairy tale.

The more religions the better because intellectually they cancel each other out.
One day,hopefully,there will be so many religions
with so many whacky beliefs that people may be forced to accept the obvious; that the truth of one's religion is no more the truth than are any of the others,because they're all superstitions usually acquired in childhood,and to which we become emotionally attached for a lifetime,as a part of our identity: as part of who we are.
Reason and good sense have no part in the aquisition of such belief. It is all about feelings.
Things learned in childhood have a greater impact
on identity than things learned later in life.
If parents allowed their children to grow up
without belief in superstition,few would turn to
religion as adults,when there are so many more really interesting
areas of study to pursue in the
wonderful world of reality.

Merry meet, all.

It is high time, in fact long past high time, that we had pagan chaplains in the military. Any who volunteer to put themselves in harm's way need to have available to them soeone who can mimister to them in the manner of their own faith tradition. I realize that we cannot hav a chaplain for every sect of every denomination of every spiritual path, but just as a Methodist chaplain can effectively minister to members of most other Christian denominations, a chaplain of one pagan path would still be able to more effectively minister to a member of another pagan path than a non-pagan chaplain would. I don't think it's too much to ask for a chaplain of their own faith for those willing to put their lives on the line. It's the very least we owe them.

Starhawk for President

as many of you know, i was not a pagan before i started reading this web site. But Starhawk (and terra and wiccan and others) have convinced me with their wisdom and goodness and humanity. and i find it immeasurably easier to worship the moon goddess than that white man with a beard in the old testament who cholerically wanted to destroy the world and torture his children every other chapter.

it there are to be chaplains in the military, yes to pagan ones.

JJ-

I think you asking about the phoenix.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_%28mythology%29

Question: What's the Name of that Pagan Bird or Wiccan thing that flys, goes Poof & evolves itself again? forgot! Ya Ya.

Frankie want a cracker?

Umm, what, JJ?

And, Ian, if you're a Pagan (maybe just a 'pagan?' ) saying this:

"So any pagan chaplain would very likely be a potential cult leader, intent on imosing a warped interpretation of certain philosophical concepts on his congregation."

You might wanna meet some actual Pagan clergy sometime. :)

Speaking as a pagan I have to say that in no circumstances should there be pagan chaplains in the military or any other public institution.
Only a in nation as religion obsessed as America could there be any question of making "paganism" an official religion. A pagan, from the Latin "pagus" simply means one who lives close to nature. Thus pagans have highly personalised and widely differing belief systems.

So any pagan chaplain would very likely be a potential cult leader, intent on imosing a warped interpretation of certain philosophical concepts on his congregation.

The great thing about paganism is it is NOT a religion. This means it is free of dogma, creed and hierarchies.

Do what you will but harm none.

Hear, hear. It's time more voices like this were heard and not just in the US. Here in the UK, religionists (usually christian) take great delight in demonising secularists and call it an evil religion. It's not. A secular state (which is what secularists call for) ensures ALL are free to practice their own religion (or none) without interference or favour from the state (as long as it doesn't infringe anyone else's rights). Freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

Starhawk,

I am sitting here in Louisiana wishing with all my heart that I could be with those in DC. My heart, Spirit and love are with them...maybe the impossible will happen and the media will show it?

I agree with you that I would not care if the President was a Zen Wiccan Zoroastrian Christian (and there may be one or two of them) as long as she was wise and inclusive. We have had enough of the other kind.

A member of my group is in the Air Force, she was sent to Iraq and while there she was the acting Priestess of a Pagan group. She helped them deal with loss, frustration, pain and anger...she was not a trained Chaplain, but a second degree Priestess. But she was some one that was able to talk to them in the terms of their religion, and so was able to help. Why should our Pagan warriors deserve less then any Christian or Muslim or Jew?

It is a matter of rights...and what is needed by all fighters. Who deserves less then others? Those who do not fall into the conforming boxes? So if that is the case...then maybe the military needs to have a religion test..don't take those they do not plan of giving equality to.

Goddess bless those Pagan warriors fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and in DC as well as all over the World for Pagan religious and civil rights.

Io Evohe!
Lady Terra