Blessed by the Goddess

Good enough post, Person Unknown, but:

"and their very existence depends on having believers."

Now *that's* an idea that'll get you in trouble every time. ;)

Janet:

A couple of things ... first, your god is no more real than any other. There have been so many over the ages and their very existence depends on having believers. Second - Serious thinkers?? Read some of the christian responses in other sections. You will find an amazing lack of critical thought and a willingness to ignore reality that is really amazing. Finally - do not forget why the Palestinians are sooo cheesed off - what is now Israel was once their land. The policy of continuing settlements on the west bank is not helping. Of course, the land the land taken from the Palestinians was promised by god, right??

"Why do people think it's somehow ok to insult people whose beliefs they know nothing about?"

Often the insults are meant to *prevent* them from any danger of knowing anything they don't want to. :)

There's a psychological phenomenon of 'antiprocess' which means that if people find a piece of information to be unacceptable to their worldview, they'll tend to disregard it. ...People don't like to think they're 'bad people,' ...or have been lied to, for that matter, so the usual resolution is to disregard anything that says they might have been or done something wrong, and just say that the people who've been wronged 'deserve' it somehow.

Probably why most of the insults and defamations we hear aren't even *consistent* with each other, ... and why certain types who need us to be the 'bad guys' in their world generally refuse to accept the reality no matter how often it's been proven that they've been lied to.

Look at what Frank's thought process went through, here. Seems he didn't even really hear a word we said.

There's those who don't want to seem like frothing Fundies, but at the same time don't care to fit us in their world as human beings being treated badly, either, so they'll dismiss us as 'a bunch of kooks' (who therefore 'deserve' it?) Another version of the same phenomenon.

And on it goes. These things take time, I suppose.

Janet:

Please do some real research and reading. Find out what we believe, or perhaps just come ask us. Our faith is not just a 'religion' to us, it is a way of life. Have you read everything she has to say? Starhawk doesn't just write about what she believes should be done in the world, she is actively working to make positive changes wherever she can. It is something to have some respect for even if you do not believe as she does.

Why do people think it's somehow ok to insult people whose beliefs they know nothing about?

Frank,

Silvlaro is not Muslim, she most certainly is Pagan; a Wiccan, a member of my group and in training to be a leader...I would say I am also a good teacher. I am most very proud of Silvlaro.

She has a good head on her shoulders, strives for balance and can give as good as she gets. She is also a damned fine poet.

Janet...

We do not go into other pagaes in this forum and say a thing about anyone believeing in an all male God. It is rude and hateful to do so...and not neccessary for our well being.

Why do you feel it is neccessary for you to come in here and belittle our Lady and faith? Why is it so hard for a non Pagan to believe that we have as true a faith in our Gods as they do in their's?

Poetry, Music, art is created in the love of our Goddess and God. You are rude and belittleing people you do not know.

Starhawk is a lovely and intelligent person, just because you do not believe as she does, does not make her less so.

So Janet, be in peace and have an open mind. You might be surprised at what you may learn.

Then this is the First of the Great Mysteries:
“ In the spiritual we are all children, we must continue to grow or are spirit dies. Never stop learning, for knowledge is the food of the hungry soul”.

terra

Aaah, and that was serious thought of some kind, Janet?

I am just amazed that someone supposedly as modern and educated as Starhawk is talking about "the Goddess." I cannot take her seriously and I don't know why anyone else does. Also she talks about the occupation of Palestine as if the whole burden of the problems in the Middle East should fall on the 5 million Israelis rather than on 350 million Arabs and 1.2 billion or so Muslims. Why are people like this given a forum to propagate this foolish dribble. I expect more from the Washington Post. Please get some serious thinkers in here and let Starhawk go dance with the fairies.

What I really love about the Rede is the fact that 'an it harm none' also includes self in the equation. A piece that is overlooked more often than not in this day and age. It's not always as easy as it sounds, but it makes life a lot more manageable. I love how it requires one to really accept responsibility for what they put out, and what goes out comes back times three.

If you look below the surface of the Rede, there's a lot more than meets the eye. Sorta like the rest of us. :)

I think Mr. Collins is trying to bait us somehow, and it's confusing him when nobody responds like he expects. Kill 'em with kindness AND confusion- Maybe that's the way to go.

Gaby:
I can only hope that there are more of folks like you out there (in any religion) than there are the likes of Mr. Collins. That gives me at least some hope for the rest of the world..

TheGreg:

It's true. We're everywhere. You might be surprised at how many nerds are around. LOTR, HP, anyone? :)

*laughing.* I *was* kind of making the reference, myself. ;)

PaganPlace,

"We're even allowed to *not* have the Ultimate Answer To Life, The Universe, And Everything. "

But the answer is 42!

...... gods i'm such a nerd.

And, why, thank you, Gaby. Whatever part of the horse this guy's emulating, instead of perhaps riding, I see him as caught up in a zero-sum game of religious competition that someone convinced him they'd hung his very soul upon. Turned something that a lot of my respected ancestors tried to turn to the good into some kind of pain-and-fear game.

He won't get us to join in, but hating his like does no good, either, and there does come a time when you've got to stand.

Anger, though, that's very human, too. We're allowed to be human. :)

We're even allowed to *not* have the Ultimate Answer To Life, The Universe, And Everything.

Takes some of the strain off of life, right there, I think. But it's a big deal to him. Kind of a stressful place to be, I should think.

Not only was he taught to believe *he* needs it, he was taught to believe everyone *else* needs it, or else Terrible Things Will Happen. Err, More Terrible Things Will Happen Than Result From Thinking That Way Every Time...

'Evil,' even.

You don't have to kneel to anyone to see if any of this works for you, btw, Frank. Pretty open-source stuff, here. If it works, it works.

Just maybe your Jesus would approve.

Anyway, Gaby, we'll work it out. ;)

This, though, is one place where I think the Pagan community has done well: in an age where it seems everyone's trying to sell us on doom and gloom, and "If it feels good, it's probably a sin," ...then get us to try and satiate frustrated desires on consumer goods, war, condemnation of others, and blind obedience to people who'd lead us to bad ends, I see joy and honesty and responsibility and courage.

I see Pagan kids never raised to irrationally fear, not others, not themselves, not things like sexuality, nor reason, nor science, nor the future...

That never had the light of humanity squelched in them.

With good boundaries, as well as openness, compassion as well as a strong sense of justice.

I look around our festival circles, see our lovers, our warriors, our crafters, our farmers, our healers, our *people...* and that gives me great hope.

Like the Lady says: "Let there be Beauty and Strength, Power and Compassion, Honour and Humility, Mirth and Reverence within you."

Yeah, we can do that. :)

By those standards, I'd say we're doing pretty well, from what I've seen. :)

Star Hawk, Paganplace, et al.,

If I wasn't who I am I would probably be wiccan too, as it is I am an ECLATi-ON.

I respect your religion very much and am glad you finally won your battle. Your love of nature and your generousness is to be admired.

Jihadist,

You are a warm hearted, intelligent person and I like you!

FRANK:

YOU, sir, ARE A HORSES ASS!

I think the words you're looking for are the Wiccan Rede: 'If it harms none, do as you will.'

This doesn't tell people to 'do what feels good,' but rather it places responsibility for our actions on *us:* if it harms none, do what *you* will.

People who haven't lived by it often have some difficulty conceiving of the fact that humans don't become slavering hedonists without the threats and promises of external religious control.

People who live by such threats and promises tend to be the ones who go nuts when they think no one's looking, or if they think the other guy is sufficiently 'evil.'

The Rede teaches us to be free, of good will, and aware of the effects of our actions, not always trying to 'justify' them. A very simple phrase that in practice is quite deep.

It seems to me that I hear a lot from Christians about, 'If my God didn't say no, I'd do all kinds of things I think are bad.'

Why would you *want* that, if you thought it was bad?

I think a lot of folks don't realize that even if they obey a book, that they still have to make their own choices, ...they're just displaced onto terms of obeying one part or another of said book, (which obviously doesn't really work that well, it'd seem, unless the point is to get people obsessedf with other people's sex lives) instead of directly in the world.

Frank,

It's not "if it feels good, do it." It's more "If it feels good, AND doesn't hurt anyone, then do it." At least that's what I've gotten from most people I meet.

I'm not going to go Christian bashing in the way you are attempting to bash others, includeing the writer of the peice these comments are supposed to be about.

I shall quote the great prophet.... Obit Wan Kenobi! "What I have told you is the truth.....from a certain point of view." Good/evil and many other concepts that we as mortal beings like to hold as truths are subject to the point of view of those who are witnessing them.

I don't know you, however I will make a suggestion. You may want to take up a different hobby. This habit of hanging around places such as this on the internet and dreaming up connections between people and spewing the type of things that you have brought up here can't be good for you physically or spiritually. Might I suggest tabletop games like Warhammer 40k? Painting miniatures can be quite relaxing, helped bring down my blood pressure :)

All you demonstrate there, Frank, is that you *don't get it.* Because you were *taught* to not get it, but rather trot out the usual defamation: "All you believe is 'If it Feels Good, Do It."

First all the Muslims in the world, and now you're trying to tell *me* what I believe.

Badly, I might add.

You've quoted Starhawk saying, well, I guess what I've been trying to say, here:

"We might say that the simplistic formulation, "They are evil; we are good" leads to its corollary, "We are justified in destroying them by any means whatsoever." And that is the very ideology that motivates the bombers, as well, and which throughout human history has led to the worst atrocities."

Evil's a dangerous word to throw around. Certainly, if instead of responding to *actions,* in a rational and just and productive manner, we responding to *labels* with hatred and intolerance , well, we'd hardly call that *good.*

Would you?

I still think Frank got sodomized by a Muslim, and that's why he is full of rage.

Hopefully he bought you dinner first Frank.

this is what starhawk wrote:
"After the terrorist bombings in London that ripped apart a bus and several tube stations and killed more than 50 people, British Prime Minister Tony Blair declared the need to wipe out the "ideology of evil" that the bombs represented.

Evil is a construct Pagans try to avoid. Our theology, or rather, thealogy, (Goddess-knowing) teaches us that dark and light, life and death, creation and destruction exist in balance, and to cut off or condemn one aspect opens us to the imbalance that leads to cruelty and horror. We might say that the simplistic formulation, "They are evil; we are good" leads to its corollary, "We are justified in destroying them by any means whatsoever." And that is the very ideology that motivates the bombers, as well, and which throughout human history has led to the worst atrocities.

But if we reject the concept of evil, how do we respond to horrific acts? Is there a specifically Pagan response to such violence? There is no central Pagan authority, no Pagan Pope to issue bulls, no Pagan rabbinical authority to say who does or does not have the right to interpret for us. We have no sacred scriptures to interpret, anyway. As Pagans, we are each our own spiritual authority, each with our own connection to the Goddess.

From that authority, I offer one Pagan's response to the bombings. While we have no Bible, no set of commandments, we do have nature as our teacher, and a set of rough ethics that value life, balance, and interconnection. We feel an immediate, intuitive horror at the taking of life, and at the randomness of this death. To die because I chose to fight in the military, or to take a particular risk, or even because I incurred a particular enemy, at least has some sense of cause and meaning."

at first i thought you might actually be logical and not a fool. i was wrong.
you are not logical. your "religion" says - if it feels good do it.
and no matter what anyone does or believes - they cant be evil - unless they are christian. ok i added that last part - but it falls into what you have been writing.
and no evil? not even hitler or stalin? no evil at all?
you are a fool.

I think you know those are lies and defamations, Frank. True colors are coming out, aren't they?

Blaming us for 9/11, now?

Hate to be the one to point it out, but Bush&co got more Americans killed out of faith-based blindness and incompetence than died on 9/11.

I've told you over and over that I don't agree with , really, most of the premises or dictates of Islam, or Christianity, for that matter. I'm a *Pagan.* I don't believe in books in that way you try to use to 'prove' I should hate people I don't know.

To what end, you still won't say. I think you don't even *know,* or are looking to justify someone committing the same sorts of horrors you fear from someone else.

It's illogical, irrational, and hateful, and no one's buying it. Now cool it.

well pagan - still whinning about 2000 i see. well you lost that one - get over it.
and i know that what you really wanted on 911 was every christian dead but that did not happen wither. the world is so hard on you i see.
and still loving that class warfare stull - well you lost there too.
looks like you lost all the way around.
the world is just so hard on you.
here is an idea - maybe iran or saudi arabia or pakistan will be a good place for you - everything you lost here in america you can find living with your loving islamic brothers and sisters.

"As Pagans are you happy with where our religion is now as opposed to where it was say … 10 years ago?

Silvlaro"

I think, Silvarlo, that the past ten years have represented perhaps a coming-of-age for much of the community: it seemed our biggest problems were a clergy shortage, and perhaps what to do with a sort of sense of boundless optimism that was cut a bit short by the shock of the stolen 2000 election, and later, the events around 9/11 and the 'War on Terror,' ...with newer communities and groups forming and preparing to step up into somewhat more visible and open roles in our communities.

An emboldened Religious Right and all the fear and intolerance all this was used to engender has definitely made the past *seven* years take a different shape, with discretion being more of a watchword for many of us.

But a coming-of age it's been, after all, I think, ...among adversity I think some character, even if the visible pentacles and other symbols that were once becoming commonly visible have had to be tucked away by many people, a concession to the general climate out there, it seems: There's another sign of the times: people being afraid to be open about their religion in America... Yikes. Even that sort of Renfaire-influenced sense of Pagan fashion seems to have gone out the window, (possibly on that, people just got bored with it, but I thought it was kind of charming.)

At the same time, I think we've become somewhat more galvanized on issues of importance to us. Assaults on religious freedom and the environment from the current administration and the fundamentalists in America seem to have increased our commitment and activism on these issues, as well as others. It may have brought our tendency to fractiousness down to a more reasonable level in some ways, too. Certainly, I see several Pagan communities thriving and developing traditions of their own, and maybe a real sense of extended family among the Pagan community at large , however independent or even isolated the individuals may be.

We've certainly made some strides in freedom, largely thanks to some leadership and focus on the Wiccan headstone issue, a step toward guaranteeing our freedom and rightful place in American society, against some highly unjust resistance.

I think, too, that we've potentially seen the peak of the fundamentalist influence in America as regards ourselves and those things we hold dear: support for these things and the related political party are on the wane: as the promises and scare tactics prove hollow, and the policies ineffectual.

We may yet breathe free, and be the stronger for all this. What will be ahead, I think, is the development of community, to better support our elders, our children, and our sick and injured.

Many of us, I think, will find ourselves well-equipped to cope with the likely-inevitable belt tightening that the climactic situation and the mismanaged global political situation is going to force sooner or later, as well. At least, the bill for this Iraq misadventure and the tax-cuts-for-the-wealthy are going to come due.

I think we'll be there for each other, and those around us.

Ariel - opinions are like butt holes - everybody has one and they all stink. but you asked so i will answer.
as to the old testament - i know of no country that applies jewish law on any topic where there is punishment. while you are free to agree or disagree with anyone - and you can tell them so - you do not have the right to enforce any law except that one established in the country where you live and then only when the state does the punishment.
the only place i know where slavery is allowed is in a few islamic africian states. it is no longer acceptable and no one should be sold into slavery.
as to a woman and her period - that is up to her. she gets the right to say yes or no and you have the same right, but neither of you can force the other. as for sex during her period - i feel that is a personal choice - no matter what the old testament says - but that does not prevent you from following it.
in america we have a constitution and fought a civil war - that cost the loves of 640,000 americans and no slavery is allowed - it includes peonage too - which is what the mexicans used to call it and it applied to how mexicans kept their people but under peonage they were not required to actually take care of them. both are illegal in the america's - all the america's - although cuba and some other south american countries think slavery to the state is acceptable.
working on the sabbath are religious laws and the only countries today that rely on religious to write and enfore their laws are islamic countries. so the answer is no - you cannot enforce a religious law in the west - unless that law is also part of the civil law.
shellfish and sex are not part of the civil law scheme of most western countries. again - religious laws are only enforceable in islamic countries but i dont think they apply to the jewish laws of the old testament. what is or is not acceptable sexual conduct is personal - enjoy yourself - unless it involves children. now the only place that allows sex with children as young as 9 are islamic countries as they say they are following the acts of moho - who married a baby of 6 and finally had full on sex at 9, although he did everything else. while its ok in iran and a few other countries - even if so sanctioned if you do it in a western country you cant claim your religion allows you to do it. civil authorities establish the age of consent. iran says its 9.
as for homo conduct - well its obviously not the common thing or two men or two women would be able to breed between themselves and they cant, and the main purpose of sex is reproduction - but it does feel great.
i dont know where the alter of god is - so when you find it let me know. but i do know that the old testament rules apply only to jews and no one else. maybe israel enforces that one, but i dont know. to my knowledge the only group that tries to enforce their religious laws on people outside their religion and outside the country where the laws exist - is islam. millions marching to ask for death for a cartoon of moho. millions marching to ask for the death of the pope for quoting another pope who said that the forced conversions noted in the koran was evil. i believe they asked for death for insulting islam.
two crops in one field - well if he is a jew that might be a big deal to him but not to me. everyone is free to follow their own believe and to apply them to themselves and no other. today the only group that forces its religious laws on others are islamic. and the dual planting probably had something to do with crop rotation as did allowing a field to lay fallow every specific number of years. lots of biblical laws appear to me - who does not have to follow them - to be more practical than religious - but if you want to say they are religious - good for you. like no sex during a womans period. it you look at the days - you will see that who ever wrote that one knew about when a woman could get pregnant.

let me ask you a question. if i tell you that jews are dirty vile people is that acceptable? if i tell you that jews are the main cause of evil in the world is that acceptable? if i tell you that jews must be hunted down and killed is that acceptable? if i tell you i wrote this down in a book called mein kampf does that make it acceptable?
then why would it be acceptable if its also in the koran.

as i keep saying - believe as you wish. accept the laws of your religion and discard those of other religions.
but you dont get to force your religious laws on others and you sure dont get to harm them if they violate your religious laws. there is one exception - if someone lives in a country where religious laws are also civil laws.

Frank,

I'm actually kind of impressed - you seen to know the Koran really well. May I ask why, since it's nothing but evil evil evil to you? You remind me of a SUPER-HETERO! man who collects gay porn "to prove how evil homosexuality is....."

If you're interested in all those lines about killing, raping, murdering, etc. you should check out Leviticus sometime. It's pretty interesting how some of those laws - still included in the Holy Bible - are so violent and hateful. The following "letter" to Dr. Laura Schlessinger might illuminate some of these issues for you:

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

(note for Thegreg: He trolls all the threads with this same stuff, really. Never answers questions of what we'd be supposed to *do* if we agreed 'there are no moderate Islamics' and that they were all as evil as he claims.

I think now he's just trying to convince himself we're the bad guys because we aren't going to *become* what he fears in others. )

I don't normally post here, though I do love to read the articles and the comments that ensue. However I just have to ask this one thing.

Where in the good green earth did Islam come into the discussion? Starhawk wrote a lovely article that does not seem to have anything to do with Christianity, antiChristianity, Islam, or being in any way affiliated with Islam.

Mr. Frank, can you please explain to me why you felt it nessicary to begin this discussion here? I'm sure there are any number of places where you can discuss your dislike of Islam and of various Pagan groups and your theories of them being in league with one another. I would just like to know the reason you, personally (no church, christian ideals, blah blah blah, putting you up to it, YOU) decided to take a simple discussion of an article that was starting out quite nicely and turn it into your own soap box?

Is it such a bad thing to you for other people to have a nice conversation that has nothing to do with you or your ideals that you have to insert yourself forcefully into the conversation?

I'm not sure who you're accusing of what there, 'Anonymous,' but you seem to be putting words in our mouths. We don't hate Christians, nor do we hate Muslims. Your idea seems to be to define Muslims as 'evil' then accuse us of 'defending this evil' because we say you're being *unfair and unproductive in your attacks,* ...you're simply trying to create fear and hatred and we're not buying it. What we may agree with or disagree with about Islam has nothing to do with this discussion, and I simply don't know what you would want us to do even if you could *get* us to hate people who are, for the most part, far away.

It's especially ludicrous to try and get us to believe that we should be hateful about your view of Islam when we experience plenty of intolerance here at home from Christians.

Not. Buying it. Now. On to the discussion we're trying to have.

in 'In Vino Veritas' were actually true - they would get everyone good a drunk before they testified at a trial. in vino there is nothing at all - just drunk.
and no i dont believe that there are witches - talking with the devil and changing into cats, no more than i believe in vampires, and men who change into wolves. but i dont have to - as long as i dont interfer with your right to believe it and if you believe it you do not interfer with my righ to believe what i want.

but the right to believe stops at the end of your body - you dont get to force anyone to believe as you do and you dont get - for an alleged reason or not - to touch them if they dont want to be touched.

so please go on and defent islam and think they are ever so good for you - that is a right you have too and i would not prevent you from thinking they are your best friends. it appears you do have hate of christians in common - and that too is your right. there is a saying in islam "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" but no one ever talks about the second part. "until our common enemy is defeated."

Viejita:

Very well said. Sounds like you've been doing some homework. I was raised Jewish so for me the whole 'devil' thing was really quite vague.

Four points of the pentacle representing elements of earth, air, fire, water.. the point at the top is spirit above all else. At least that's my understanding of it. The Satanists have the point down. Why is a bit sketchy to me, but it's easy for others to confuse one for the other. My symbol is entirely different, at least for now. It may change as time goes on. Who knows?

Mr. Collins:

Seeing as how our practices have nothing to do with any book, I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't approve of anyone or anything that advocates violence, but I have to fully plead ignorance when it comes to the scriptures of other people and therefore am not qualified to even attempt to step into such a trap.

Silvlaro:

I have not read up enough on how the practices have changed within the last decade, I'm afraid. I'm only a few years into reading about the history, and only a few MONTHS into any sort of personal practice. I'm only now starting to discover my path.

The more I read, though, the more it seems like there's still so much work to be done. It really gets overwhelming sometimes.

Frank:

So anyone who does not agree with you that Islam is eveil is secretly a terrorist sympathizer bent on destruction of all "infidels"?

You should check out the Landover Baptist website. You sound a lot like them, except that they do it as satire.

and how am i closed minded? and i dont see anyting that appears to indicate that any church provided me with any information.
but the fact you said CHURCH leads one to believe that you are still hooked on this THE CHRISTIANS ARE EVIL line. ok - assume they are - does that make islam any more friendly and reasonable?
and you have your metaphore wrong. its a flyswatter and sledgehammer. are you sure your not one of those islmaics pretending to be someone else?
hell i would love for islam to renounce those parts of the koran that are evil. you do think that those quoted parts of the koran are evil dont you? if you dont then we dont have any common ground for discussion.
and you are appearing to be playing the islam word game. accusing anyone who quotes the koran's evil verses as being a boggot and closed minded. like those verses are evidence of love for ones fellow man.
and if it not for what is going on today, and in the past, as well as those stated assertions of what they intended to do and why, then maybe i would not find evil in islam.
so lets see if you are an islamic in an infidels clothing. do you renounce and find as evil those quoted verses of the koran? if you are islamic you will come up with some reason not to.

I am a firm believer in using the correct tool for the job. I just can’t see the need for a ball peen hammer in place of a fly swatter. At the same time however I do believe in exchanging tools when it is apparent that the one you are using isn’t getting the job done. My husband tells me that there are just times when “subtle” won’t get you anywhere and the only recourse is a very blatant broadside. Unfortunately I think that in this case he may be correct. I do hope that those of you who are attempting to learn from one an other and actually exchange thoughts here, will excuse the following rant. I will get back on topic before I close this post...

Mr. Collins based on what I have seen from you here you are just as bigoted and closed minded as those you profess to hate. The attitude you radiate is exactly the type of manic paranoia that brought about stoning, hanging, drowning, and burning, which brought so much pain, suffering and death. Do some research outside of the “church” propaganda and you just may discover some actual facts that they don’t tell you because they A) use fear as a tool to control, B) want to hide the atrocities they have perpetrated, and C) do not want the truth known because it will leave them with egg on their collective faces. Get over the hate mongering complex and get a real education or are you afraid that we may be right?

A closed mind lives behind steel bars and barbed wire
No light may enter into the dwelling place
Shadows are the friends and protectors
In darkness there is security

Yet in sealing out possibilities it seals out life
There is no newness or joy in discovery
There are no rainbows or dreams
Wishes and fantasy are something others have

To live one must experience
To grow there needs be light
Weighing and considering each action
Reaching out to grasp opportunities, take risks

Closing off is a form of death
Growing, participating, living takes work
When faced with the choice
For I would rather live than exist

*taking a deep breath*

Now then…somewhere, in this shouting match, the topic seems to have gotten misplaced. Is there any possibility of our getting back to exchanging information or are we going to have to endure more of the delusions that Mr. Rude-much has decided are “truths” that we all need to be made aware of? I for one would like to go back to having an intelligent exchange of thoughts and ideas, anyone else?

Since it looks as though we have dived into the whole “where we started v.s. where we are headed” thing let me take the original question and re-word it a bit. As Pagans are you happy with where our religion is now as opposed to where it was say … 10 years ago?

Silvlaro

Mr. Collins,
You have the best chance to learn what Witches are, what our beliefs are without the preconcieved ideas. Open your mind and ask us questions..I know that we all will do our best to answer honestly.

terra

Paganplace
I noticed that.
Frank
The pentagram -- labeled Satanist by early Christians -- hardly provides evidence that Wiccans are secretly Satan worshippers. As I understand it, the five-pointed star was a symbol of pagan remnants that made the early Christians nervous because they were people who could not be politically controlled by the state religion. Anything that makes church authorities nervous must be from the devil, que no?
Blaming Wiccans for Satanism on the evidence of a common symbol would be akin to blaming Hindus for Nazism because of the swastika. Latino gangs use images of Mary to signify their ethnicity. Does that mean all Catholics are secretly gang members?
Just trying to see where some of your assumptions lead...

Hey, did he actually call us Satanic or something in there? I really do tend to tune that out by now.

That'd be frickin' rich. Telling us to worry about Muslims while telling a well-armed superstitious nation we serve ultimate evil.

Whooyah.

Mr. Collins,

We witches and pagans are very real. Minus maybe the green face paint. It tends to chafe. :)

As for burning, from the best research I can find, a whole lot of 'god fearing' Christians went up in smoke. The best they can figure is about 40000 (?) practicing witchcraft. (Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Mostly because witches and pagans are often either also raised in one of the Abrahamic faiths to blend in and not raise suspicions, or are VERY good at hiding in plain sight in other ways when it is deemed necessary. Still, one death is too many, and the repercussions of utter misinformation and hatred based on ignorance have trickled down to this day.

We have some trouble with anyone espousing hatred of others without consideration for the fact that there are fundamentalists to be found in every faith. Right now it's Islam that's getting all the bad press. After the mess in the Middle East is resolved in some way (for better or worse), someone else will take the limelight.

You do not know us, as you admit, yet you came here claiming that our very real experiences are somehow 'all in our mind' and that we have something to do with some sort of Christian devil that I, for one, have never even heard of. It is that sort of attitude that ennables those horrible things we speak of to happen. Insulting those you're speaking to is automatically going to have the net effect of making you both unheard and appearing to be just as hateful as the terrorists are.

Please be careful that you don't become one of those types of people that you purport to rail against. And don't do it here. Exchanging ideas is fine, but this is for people who are interested in talking to us and really maybe trying to find out a little bit about who we are. If you are one of those, fine. If not, please go elsewhere.

Don't worry about it, Jihadist, we Irish have been taking 'In Vino Veritas' to the next level for several thousand years. It'll get sorted. :)

Now, Frank, About that whole 'Dark Side Of The Force...'

Would you like to meet some human beings?

Frank Collins

Of course I'm a violent Muslim. You did not catch me on CNN last night waving a placard screaming, "DEATH TO STUPID IDEAS!" But they took me away and had me whipped 50 lashes for apostasy of placard statements. It was suppose to be "DEATH TO DANISH PASTRIES BY CHEWING ON THEM!"

We have taken over Europe and the United States already. All Americans and Europeans are now Muslims. We have also undertaken the Inquisition and burned, stoned and whipped all who would not yield to Islam.

And there is still Latin America, Africa, Asia to conquer for the realization of a global Islamic caliphate. All will live under Shariah law. All women will be made to wear the hijab and niqab too. Saves them on make-ups and keeping up with fashion. Who needs Prada? After all, the devil wears Prada.

We can conquer the world, convert everyone to Islam without nukes, Stealth bombers and well equiped armies.

And, best of all, under the Islamic caliphate, under Shariah, all men like you will be allowed a maximum of 4 wives. Want in?

I think you left some of your spelling and capitalization in one of your empties, Frank. :)

Read again.

I've been *saying* you're trying to sell everyone on some fear of some things that you claim are about Islam and never Christianity ....yet which most of us have been experiencing *from* Christians all our lives.

You're still trying to say, 'But someone else is 'worse!'

I told you I don't care. It's like someone smacking you around and saying, 'Be glad this isn't a Communist country, or you'd get worse.'

Yah. Think that.

The challenge is elsewhere.

It is in fact, *here.*

pagan - in reverse order of what you said:
did the ever burn a witch? are there any such things as people think of them?
i remember reading about a looney bunch of girls who would howl and wale and pretend that there were devils that only ythey could see.
so i dont know any which that was ever burned - but they sure burned a lot of innocent people who did nothing to merit anything like it, or any other punishment.
that is what happens when allegted christians think they have answers that no one else has, and they are always wrong.

and when did i ever defend any atrocities - and why is quoting the stated belief of a people - ande then pointing out that they are and have been and therefore will in the future - act in accord to those beliefs, make me the bad guy.

if you met a new person and wanted to talk to them to find out if they are the kind of person you want to have a relationship with. they tell you that they hate, jews, christians, hindu's and idlitors - would you stay around for the second course? what if they then told you that they believe in kidnapping for ranson, totture, murder, and sex with 9 year olds - still interrested in being their new best friend?
and lastly they tell you that all that they just told you was not just a belief but a command from their god. want to hang around them any more.

well that is islam. im not making anything up - i read the book they say rules their life and then i see that they have in the past and currently live according to that book. i quote their book and i show facts about conduct.

as for a pagan - i dont know what you are - the fact you have a different belief system does not mean anything to me. as long as you dont engage in hate - well you can hate nazi's, ss members, and the kkk, but putting that hate into action - then even they get rights in america.

and think about this - the god of islam - after 2,500 years of protecting the jews, and giving them the massia he promised [according to the jews and christians] then decided to create a new religion and butcher and kill the only two groups in the world that believe in him. that makes no since at all.

but for you pagan - you appear to want to make nice with islam - and you are entitled to be fooled - but look up islam and pagans and see not only what the koran says - but how islam acted in the past, and currently, when they come upon pagans.

and islam has already put millions of them into the streets and called for your death pagan - it you even looked at a cartoon of moho. you insulted islam by that act and 50-100 million islamics marched to inforce their right to kill you, if they could.

I think we try not to focus on the abuses we've suffered in the past because then we lose our own ability to see the present and the beauty that lives around us. Our families and society's pain becomes our own until we learn to send it back from whence it came, hopefully softened and transmuted into a better shape. That's the goal anyway.

Paganplace:

I was raised in Texas and still consider it a part of me. But I did notice the tendency of others to assume that everyone was like them. Raised Jewish there gave me a touch of both mystery and a target on my forehead. (Paganism moved it to my back and just made it bigger and neon. :) )Given the attitudes of some (though not all) of the folks there, it's somehow not surprising that they came up with a law like that. Keep in mind, this is where our Fearless Leader King George is from.

You said: "Also, while we're on the topic, just wondering if anyone who's trying to incite hatred of certain divinely-sanctioned sorts ever wonders why 'burning witches' a) Keeps happening, whenever certain types are given the power, and b) Never works?"

Remember, these are the same folks who think it's ok to blow holes in other people's countries and then wonder why A) the folks they invade don't see that blowing up their homes is really 'helping them be free' , B) that doing so tends to make the homeowners a little pissy and B) that never works either. :)

Also, while we're on the topic, just wondering if anyone who's trying to incite hatred of certain divinely-sanctioned sorts ever wonders why 'burning witches' a) Keeps happening, whenever certain types are given the power, and b) Never works?

Just offhand. While nothing's happening to us or anything, I figure we have the time, right?

Let's look at it this way, Frank... Maybe *you're* the infiltrator, serving a bunch of pernicious ends through some kind of scriptural literalism and fearmongering, hell-bent on a mission in which you're out to destroy the American way of life by deceiving the masses and defending atrocities.

Ever think of that?

Could be we're all just people in a situation, but, if you wanna go with that, I commend you to the nearest mirror. :)

And, I meant, above, to say, 'The Christian Right' rather than 'The Christian,' ...a typo, but you may understand here how hard it can be to draw those distinctions. Frank.

There are so many indignities, assaults and abuses I and so many others have personally put up with upon our persons... With, I think, a great deal of grace and patience, but as someone found out when he hauled off and kicked a cat that was a friend of mine (not even 'my' cat,) ..with of course, a 'God Damn' .... *you do not mess with the animal friends,* if you don't want some very human responses.

Or possibly any 'Unhallowed sh**hammers of the Morrigan' that may be to hand.

We Pagans don't really live in a world where much is 'black and white,' but there is a point past which talk ends.

As our founding fathers in America put on a flag, against a tyranny that styled itself divinely-ordained:

"Don't tread on me."

As for Frank's little crusade, did you know that in our 'Christian nation?' laws against *animal cruelty* came ahead of laws against doing the same thing to *children?*

In Texas, even, the Christian put forth an anti-gay law which in *the same bill* said 'Oh, it's OK to rape animals, as long as you own the animal.'

Same thing as that Koran you can't look away from said in those passages.

"(aside: am I a bad person for getting more upset when I hear of animals being murdered than people?)"

Probably not. We're subjected to a lot of things meant to inure us to the killing of people, 'for a reason' however thin that may be.

Animals are supposed to be the keepers of our innocence, even for those of us, and to the extent that, we have internalized the idea of 'Original sin.'

I think when reading about people murdering our pets, it's just unmitigated *nast.* You can't even rationalize that, well, they believe the hurt is justified, ...cause they *killed a trusting animal and smeared the blood all over to 'prove' how 'evil' what they think they're fighting is.*

It's a little easier to feel the sorrow over that, cause when they attack us as *people,* well, even if they have no more feeling or sanity about it, it's about *people.*

Killing pets to 'spread the Gospel,' well, that's just a horror and a tragedy.

Athena,

I just read an interview by Darla Wynne. I had tears in my eyes when I read what was done to her animals.

(aside: am I a bad person for getting more upset when I hear of animals being murdered than people?)

Kudos to her for standing up for her beliefs and refusing to let her neighbors' actions force her out. I don't think I would be able to be that strong were I in that situation.

"can you have a good nazi" ?

Ask the Pope.

Mr. Collins,

If you want *PROOF* of hate crimes committed by the state against Wiccans, google the name "Darla Wynne" and see what you come up with. Read what happened to her and her defenseless pets all because she spoke up for her rights.

As for rape, murder, pedophilia, forced conversion, etc., the Islamists have nothing on the Christians for doing these exact same acts.

Jihadist - "Men are swine. I don't eat pork because I can't stand pigs." BWAHAHAHA!!!! I love it! That made my day! Thanks!

I'd go further to say that these 'all or nothing,' 'us vs them' divisive tactics are the real thing we have to defend against. It'll hardly matter if someone else is tyrannical if we embrace tyranny at home out of fear of it.

Hardly matters how much you call someone *backward* if the 'answer' is *going backwards.*

I think America's finding out that the promises of these elements have proven hollow already.

It certainly won't matter how warlike we think someone is if through neglect and bad policy we just end up creating the *conditions* for war ourselves ...and quite possibly a great deal of death in other, more direct ways, say, by despoiling the environment or screwing up the world in other ways out of such fears and willful-ignorances, either.

What to do about a world full of religious strife and the potential for greater terrors, well, that's a valid question: but the answer surely isn't 'more of the same.' Certainly even if you think these things are looming, that doesn't mean it's smart be scared into letting a bad administration exhaust our economic and military resources on 'faith based' moves that make things worse.

Probably the only thing worse than getting imperialist is trying to and *screwing it up.*

Looking for 'justifications' for wars when the real question should have been 'what good do you expect to come of this?' That alone should have argued for continued restraint. The thing about all this Orwellian stuff we're experiencing, Frank, is that in part we were lied to because most of America *lets* itself be lied to. Fox News is mere propaganda, but people *watch* because that's what they are told they want to hear.

Meanwhile, stratification and dissatisfaction in our own country grows... If you sell people on the idea that they need to embrace one book literally, and perhaps in irrational ways: if you teach, essentially, that freedom and pluralism and coexistence and equality *aren't* good things, essentially, well, then you'll only have yourself to blame if some people turn around and pick a different authority with the same sorts of goals.

Fact is, if you spread hatred and intolerance, it'll come back to you, and there's no Biblical commentary that'll prevent that: no deflecting of the blame that'll do more than help it snowball.

Me, I'm not counting out the quieter forces of understanding, and an innate desire we all have to live in harmony. We just have to be responsible for our own perceptions. Then, if it comes to a fight, at least it'll be an honest one.

Now, I'm not 'defending Islam,' ..I'm not even qualified for that. I'm quite often saying when proselytized at by them, 'You do realize that there's a lot of stuff in that book I find pretty alarming.'

Gets down to 'There is no compulsion in religion,' and then I'm like, 'I don't know what that means in Arabic, but in English, all it does is say 'compulsion in religion' *doesn't exist.* Someone could just turn around and say that means that whatever they do isn't compulsion. And yes, most of the tolerance clauses aren't worded such that they include me, even if they were probably originally intended to refer to specific tribes Muhammad's guys were at war with at the time.

Most Muslims I've met say they simply believe the world will inevitably become Muslim and there's no need to force it. I say, 'Well, all right, if that floats your boat. You might find folks with other ideas, but hey, it's a big planet.'

One or two said, 'Well, what will you do when maybe it does come down to the sword?' My response was, 'Well, that'll be an interesting day. I got a sword, too.' We then laughed and agreed to peace out. A lot can happen in a bit of history.

Still, you've got to give props to whoever that was for gentility. Maybe it's the old Gaelic strain in me, but I get less indignant about conflict itself than people *lying about me* for it. If someone thinks they really might have to kill you one day, there's no need to be rude about it. :)

Maybe I'm just too used to people who want to say that having to work themselves up about how horrible a person I must surely be to deserve such treatment that was their idea in the first place.

The real question is how long it'll take for a vision of the world where we can all get along takes to come about. We may have a limited time in which to talk to each other like this. I say, it doesn't help to try using this medium to try and teach that it's *impossible.*

To swerve back on topic, I share Starhawk's opinion on satisfaction with life. It's not an easy term to apply, in my case. So much seems to be going wrong in the world, yet, I've lived to see some comfort, and just maybe some of the regeneration that I had thought would have to wait for the Summerlands.

Chafing, maybe, to get back on the 'active duty roster,' ...help build something, now that I've somewhat unwillingly had all this time to *think.*

It's too easy to resent some of what I've gone through, for all else that I *could* have been doing, even if it'd have meant I didn't have some of the adventures and experiences that made me who I am now. Recent developments in politics have really meant that I felt less reason for hope, ...except maybe this time around, we'll learn better than to keep trying to do more-of-the-same in hopes of making it come out better this time.

I see the major cultures and religions of the world as coping with some manner of karmic *post traumatic stress disorder.* Cause they sure act just like it. They in fact, seem custom-evolved to *not deal* with the effects of the past.

I should know of which I speak.

There are ways to heal this, though. Ones that actually come quite naturally, if we let them. That begins with reality.

The reality is I live among a lot of Christians who tend to deal, at worst, with 'heresy' and the like with *shunning,* which is pretty much a death sentence where the tradition came from, but here, doesn't have a lot of teeth. Right now, it makes for a better 'love your neighbors' scenario than frothing and threatening do, ...though they're subjected to a constant barrage of media trying to *make* them froth.

Or at least say, 'Conservative Christianity is the real source of all good in the world, use your imagination about the rest. We'll help make that imagination as scary as possible.'

I don't think too many of em buy it.

Where am I?

I'm in ur 'base' drinking ur b33r. :)

OK, couldn't resist that one. :)

Read an article yesterday that said a sense of Christian community is a good "weapon" against Goddess spirituality.

"Weapon?"

Community isn't a *weapon.* It's community, or it's a lie.

I was kind of raised, by Christians, to see the world that way... threats and weapons everywhere.

I got better.

I can be satisfied *there,* at least.

yes extreamists can be violent but only the koran demands that they be violent.
can you have a good nazi or member of the kkk? why - becasue at the core of their beliefs is the hate of others.
at the core of islam is the hate of others - and i have sited the verses and even provided links to the immans in the largests mosques in the west who teach daily that islam is just biding its time if its not actively engaged in hate and murder.
and what of those who are wicca? they seem to be law abiding people, who do not hate anyone, but have some understandable issues with those who appear to violently take issue with their beliefs.
as an american i can say i want those people prosecuted and jailed for violence toward anyone, for anything they do to their neighbors.

Above post is mine - forgot to sign.

Frank:
Take a deep breath before you bring on a stroke.

I'm trying to find the connection between your rants against Islam and the question of satisfaction, and it's eluding me.

You object to Islam because of its violent history, but Christianity has blood on its hands as well. Abraham is highly admired by both Jews and Christians as a righteous man, who was blessed by God. This is the same man who raped a servant with the intention of getting her pregnant (which I'm sure meant repeated rapes, since he would not have known when she was ovulating), then left her and his child to die of starvation and thirst when his wife became jealous of the child, even though the pregnancy by rape had been her idea. This same man is revered for being willing to slit his other son's throat because a voice in his head told him to do so.
Christianity proudly proclaims that its savior was descended from a corrupt king who had a woman's husband murdered so that he could have her for himself.
The Christian holy book tells of its god ordering entire cities put to the sword - man, woman, child, and beast - because the inhabitants practiced a different religion and possessed desirable real estate. Other times, he orders the men killed, the women and children raped and/or enslaved. Nice guy, this god.
This same holy book mandates capital punishment for homosexuality, witchcraft, adultery, and sassy children.
It allows a man to sell his children into slavery.
If Islam is evil because of is violent history, then Judaism and Christianity are evil for the same reason.

I have been blessed with friends and family who walk many different spiritual paths. Sometimes those paths parallel, sometimes they intersect, sometimes they overlap, sometimes they diverge. It's all good.

To say that the actions of Muslim extremists are representative of all of Islam is no different from saying that the actions of Christian extremists who bomb women's clinics, shoot ob-gyns, and picket funerals are representative of all of Christianity.

I can tell you from personal experience that the only times I have ever been physically menaced because of my religion were by evangelical Christians who were determined to share the love of Jesus with me, even if they had to tackle me at the knees and hold me down kicking and screaming to do so.
And a Muslim acquaintance of mine was nearly run down in a supermarket parking lot. The driver of the vehicle swerved toward her, and the passesnger threw garbage out the window at her, screaming obscenities linking Islam and references to intimacy with one's parents. All because she was wearing a head scarf.
Some Hispanic friends of mine were attacked at a bar by drunken idiots who saw dark-skinned men sitting at a table speaking to each other in a different language (never mind that it was SPANISH, not Arabic) and decided that they must be terrorists.

Violence is committed by extremists of all stripes, and it's all equally wrong.

Now can we please get back on topic?

Greetings Starhawk, your comments were very well said. While I can think of one or two things I would like to change in my life, over all I am happy. Of course I am also working on those things that need changed, but then without goals and dreams we have nothing to strive towards. As for the over all view of the world … I agree with you and Terragazelle, at the same time I see it as a matter of perspective. For most of the planets population it doesn’t seem to matter that the polar ice caps are melting or that the coast lines as we know them will change in our life times not our children’s… the list goes on.

Viejita Del Oeste, I can only speak for myself here but personally I have found that, regardless of the subject matter, whenever a group of Pagans hold a discussion you can wander in at any time and be included. We, as a group have a tendency, to be willing to listen and talk about everything with openness. That’s not to say that we don’t have our share of “fundamentalists”, it’s just that our religion usually lends it’s self to a wider range of thought.

To your comments of feeling like you have entered a closed discussion … yes more times than not, that’s how I feel when reading many of the threads here. I feel that it is because, for the most part, the questions are meant for the “mainstream” religions or those who are off shoots of the “big three”. It is very difficult for many of us to see this site as a true attempt at exchange of information and knowledge. The majority of the topics seem to be designed to promote some religions while excluding others. I have been tempted to not bother coming here for just this reason. However seeing comments such as yours tells me that my coming here is worthwhile. Even though the majority of the questions may be created with that exclusion in mind, we somehow manage to insert our opinions and insights. I truly believe this is why some people feel that it is acceptable to come into a thread like this and start slamming … and as you can see many of us are extremely defensive for just that reason. I do hope you can understand and not take to heart the responses to your post that misunderstood where you were coming from and what you were saying.

As for the disrupter … responding will only give encouragement however I do feel the need to make one comment. I find it truly irritating that some consider themselves “experts” on the symbols and history of another’s faith based solely on what their faith teaches/says it is. How ignorant to presume to school others when all you have to go on is the word of an institution that not only degrades but also belittles in order to promote their own “truth”. It is appalling for one to attempt to slander one religions sacred symbol while not taking the time to discover where the symbol they use originated. But then that’s what comes from being a legend in ones own mind I suppose.

Silvlaro

"The balance of nature, the beauty and diversity of the forests, the integrity of the lie support systems of the planet—all are under assault."

I love blogs and responses because we're quick and fired up and the unintentional misspellings can be quite funny and ironic :)...I'm afraid our 'lie support systems' are well in place still, and that the current American administration wouldn't exist without such support systems!

Mr. Collins: If you are deluded into thinking that Christians haven't tortured, raped, mutilated and murdered simply because the people they find worthy of such treatment, are (1) Islamic or (2) Jewish or (3) Pagan or (4) queer or (5) anything that doesn't equate to the underlying Abrahamic religious creed that 'if you ain't like me, you're going to hell and I'll send you there', you're missing out on about 3,000 years of recent history.

Starhawk: Thanks and blessings on your oaks. Hope they are healthy.

Fortuna

Mr. Collins,

I am Wiccan, a Pagan. I have been for 30+ years. I have had many experiences with Christians, some wonderful, some not. I have been screamed at in public and called names, I have had people praying over me while I tried to get away...I have had people show my house to their children and told to stay away from it...A Witch lives there. I have harmed no one, ever. I have had experiences I would not ever want to repeat...But I would a thousand times over. You see I love who and what I am. I love what my religion gives to me, I love my Gods every bit as you love your God.

As far as child rape...About five miles up the road from me is a church...it was closed down for a long time, because the pastor, the town cop and a few more of the congregation had been molesting the children...24 of them, as well as animals, small dogs and cats. On the news it was said a Pentagram was found and it was "Witchcraft>" After all, Good Christians could not do that...it had to be Witches. Well there were no Witches or Pentagram. It was Christians. What, you say Christians don't do that? Well...these ones did...and I did not hear any Christian standing up and denouncing it. But then the Bible says that Noah's daughters made him drunk and they committed incest. Good exuse I say...I was drunk!

God tells the hebrews to kill all the people, steal their land, and take the virgins to wife or slaves.

Frank...It was David Koresh who was a Christian, rapeing kids of 10 and 11 with their parents permission...Jim Jones killed babies with the help of their parents...all Christians and all doing what they thought the bible wanted.

Seems to me that alot of folks don't have the brains the Gods gave a goose, when it comes to following words in a book.

Now I don't give a rotten fig what you think of me or my religion... You don't know me or my religion, you sir, speak from a place of ignorance. Maybe a little knowledge about Pagans and Muslims might be in order for you.

terra

Mr. Collins:

You asked for verification of the harm done to pagans in this country. If you click on starhawk's main page you will find it. Mind you, these are just a few. The other thread under Starhawk's name includes some stories, posted in full. I cannot include the direct links here because I have attempted to do so on other parts of this site and my messages would not be posted.

As a Celtic pagan, not a Wiccan, I do not lump all people who follow Islam or any other religion under one umbrella. That is the same as saying that all Christians are responsible for the actions of Pat Robertson. Or that all white people alive today are responsible for slavery. I truly believe in live and let live. I believe that what is happening is motivated by political extremism, rather than religious reasons, and that justification for political actions are couched in religious language to attract followers. And that it is up to the leaders of every religion to denounce violence and intolerance wherever it happens. Which is happening, but is not widely reported on because the actions of the terrorists are much better selling stories.

I believe that there are Muslims out there that are peaceful, (in fact there are several in my office and they are lovely people who are horrified at the actions taken by others in the name of their faith) just as I believe that there are Christians and pagans and others who are actively working towards peace. They can serve as the best examples of what it means to truly live a faith. I do not believe the world is as black and white as people nowadays make it out to be. I believe that our government made that exact mistake, to the net effect of losing our standing in the world, and creating more of a danger to us than we purport to be fixing.

We as pagans are more interested in fixing problems where we can offer assistance, not just listening to someone spewing hatred for what amount to the actions of a few. Terrible actions, yes, but ones that we must all work to counteract. It is when belief becomes fixed and immutable rather than fluid and ever changing is when connection is destroyed. So I am not denying you your right to speak, but I am asking you to do it either with an eye to fixing the problem, or speak to others on other threads of this site who are willing to tolerate your rants. Seeing as how you insult us in the same breath as the Muslims, and this thread is for those with an interest in conducting a respectful dialogue, perhaps looking elsewhere you will find the outlet you seek.

well i did not realize that you wanted me to go and look for links - i prefer to include them in any discussion.
and why would someone who would fare so badly under islam actually want to defend it?

why would a wicca defend islam when if they could they would kill you? or do you think that is just a figment of my imagination? if you do then look at the link i have posted from you tube where the immans of mosques in britian confirm what islam seeks to accomplish.

and as long as islamics pretend to be something they are not, then i will speak.

how about we ignore him and hope he goes away.

yes there is someting wrong with you jihadist. you belong to a religion that hates everyone, belives in sex with 9 year old girls as moho hsowed and think that you future lies in war with the rest of the world.
while there can be good islamics - if you are a good islamic you cant be a good person. its just a fact of life - you have to hate to much to be islamic.

Starwhawk

Been missing you! Great piece as always.

Frank Collins

There must be something fundamentally wrong with me to be Muslim, beige, female living not in America, but in a third world/developing country no less, and still be happy.

As for rape and murder, I hope the perpetrators get 100 hunderd lashes or be stoned to death. Those scums. They deserved it, and they are men too. All mens are swines. I don't eat pork, I can't stand pigs. That's a Muslim feminist's over the top mantra:)

Like Tolstoi said, "All happy families are alike. Unhappy families are unhappy in their own fashion."

I hope you are contented and happy Frank Collins. I live throught what you said and assumed, wrongly in many instances, about Islam, Muslims, Islamic history, Shariah and religious and/or cultural practices etc in the Muslim world.

Unfortunately, I'm still standing, still happy as hope, faith and beliefs are strengths. Neither the Muslim extremists nor you have any power over me. But it is entertaining to indulge some of your phobias every now and then:)

Mr. Collins:

The evidence for the things that happen to pagans, in this day and age, is absolutely real and verifiable. The lovely witch whom I have the privilege to teach for in my area is one who has been hit with bibles, spat upon, and eventually had to leave her former state because the authorities did nothing. Another in the same group is currently fighting for custody of her children simply because she is pagan. These are loving, real people I care about who have been targeted simply for choosing to be different.

The fact that you think we are somehow associated with the Christian devil shows how little understanding and unwillingness you have to actually inquire of our ways and what we believe and practice. It also sheds some doubt on your willingness to really mean what you say about defending someone's right to be different. We have had some wonderful discussions with Christians on this forum and we'd like to maintain those connections. Speech like yours makes it much harder than it needs to be.

I referred you to Starhawk's other thread on this site because on there are some news stories that never get reported by the mainstream press because pagans are seen as some sort of fringe group, because they are afraid of attacks on them from family members or others like you and do not feel safe expressing who they are. Why do I think that it got ignored? The danger is real. Yet we are everywhere- doctors, lawyers, teachers and others from all walks of life who want to just be left alone to practice what we feel.

This thread is about this week's question, which, if I may remind you, is "Are you satisfied with where you are in life?" This forum, especially Starhawk's thread in particular, is one set up for pagans and other interested, maybe curious, but respectful parties to participate in. Either contribute something useful to promote civility, dialogue and connection, or take your hatred of Islam and others-who-are-not-like-you hate speech elsewhere.

Paganplace: We really do live in a great country, don't we? If only we Americans could mean what we say we stand for- then we'd really be able to be a guiding light for the rest of the world.

As a voyeur to the "Viejita" discussion, I'm happy to say that her response was just what I expected.

Cause, frankly, Frank, these 'Western Countries' that *don't* commit these atrocities you mention (Officially, anyway,) are the same ones that *Bible*-pushers are always complaining about having *insufficient* Biblical rule.

You *bet* I'm glad in a country that offers a measure of protection from religions like that.

It still teaches people to hate homosexuals and deny it's hate, to deny the responsibility for it when people act out on the 'values' they teach from pulpits and podia rife with the *exploitation* of the queer kids they so marginalize.

Teaches people to 'stamp out the evil of witchcraft,' even if it means 'bearing false witness against your neighbor' and 'praying' for supernatural forces to hurt people they don't happen to like...

We have what freedom we *do* in this country, not because some retroactively fundamentalist Founding Fathers somehow failed to establish the state religion they had in mind, but because of the *Enlightenment.*

Which doesn't just protect the state and the minorities from theocratic control and the abuses that *always* happen. It protects *religion* from the *corruption* that comes of having or seeking this sort of control.

It puts those really wild things these books say about how to govern *in the past.*

All it says about religion *really* is that we are *all* created equal. Unconditionally.

Religion seems to have problems with that in practice, but civil society doesn't have to.

All we have to do is say *No* ..even to ourselves, and draw up a social contract.

This fearmongering, Frank, doesn't serve freedom.

It serves those who would be deaf to injustice because they want one sort of control rather than another.

This is where you'll find Pagans *very* American.

Cause we actually *believe* in what America represents, and accept it's up to *us* as Americans not to *chicken out.*

I didn't post links, someone referred you to Starhawk's thread on 'Intolerance Against Pagans.'

Apparently you weren't listening. Big surprise.

What in the holy holly Hel is your *point,* here apart from ?

Worried Pagans are going to pick up a Koran and start praying to Mecca or something?

Or, maybe you want us to pick up a similar religion's book that's supposed to be 'perfect' cause it has less 'baby-raping' in it than something else?

If you hadn't noticed, plenty of Bible-pushers seem to manage to have that particular problem, themselves, (and just try telling anyone about it when you're a kid and the priests' authority is sanctified,) and you haven't cited any relative preponderance of it in Muslim countries.

Maybe it's the kind of mentality that picks up a book, which could say *anything,* and takes it as divine law that leads to the big problems of the world.

Or the kind that likes to condemn all Muslims while denying what happens in the churches. Frankly, the filth you're throwing around here isn't impressing anyone. You still haven't proposed a solution to the problem you insist must-be-endemic-to-Islam-but-not-Christianity have you?

It seems the hope for a little peace and justice in the world isn't in the people who argue about books while denying what's in their own backyard and making the whole mess *worse,* is it?

Now get off it, will you?

there is a site called tellthechildrenthetruth
and it has pictures of the hi mucky mucks of islam kissing hitlers butt and getting their own ss division. now it appears to have been hacked so in case anyone wants the same information you can get it here http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/32043

notice how islam never rejects those vile parts of the koran? and we are not talking in the abstract when we deal with islam, we are dealing with vile comands from their gods and their carrying them out. but still they do not reject them.
and yes under islam i would be killed.
but why not reject them?
how about child rape. islam like that one. moho had sex with a 9 year old - HIS WIFE? now what about that? yes it was a long time ago. but how about now?
when the shaw was deposed in iran the first thing that the new islamic terrorists who tok over did was reduce the age of consent to 9. i posted a link to youtube where some islamics are preaching. i think on number 2 of 6 they talk about sex with a 9 year old is just fine as moho showed it was good and acceptable.
but here is what is acceptable now -

Khomeini's Teachings on sex with infants and animals
Islamic Teachings on sex with infants:

"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. If he penetrates and the child is harmed then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however would not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister."

The complete Persian text of this saying can be found in "Ayatollah Khomeini in Tahrirolvasyleh, Fourth Edition, Darol Elm, Qom"

Islamic Teachings on sex with animals:

"The meat of horses, mules, or donkeys is not recommended. It is strictly forbidden if the animal was sodomized while alive by a man. In that case, the animal must be taken outside the city and sold." http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352826

want to defend that one islamics?

the old testament says that same sex sex is wrong and the penalty is death. but what western country kills homosexuals? you have to go to an islamic country to find that happening. no right thinking person would kill a homosexual for being homosexual.

and adultry - the old testament says the punishment is death. but what western country caries out such a barbaric punishment? well islamic countries still do it.

and again if you want devil worship is your thing you get killed in islamic countries for that and its not done by some person, its done by the government.

and if you want to change religions - you can do it in the west - but you have to be rushed out of an islamic country and hid someplace or you get executed.

and pagan - i keep looking for those links you talk about but i see only links i put on for reference.

im serious - if the locak police will not help with reports of crimes - then you leave the city police and contact the county. if the county will not help you contact the states attorney general. if they will not help you contact the US Attorney for your district. and if none of those help, keep written documents of who you talked to and when and then you file a civil rights action in the federal court alleging a violation of your civil rights. if you need help try the center on law and poverty - they used the same section for blacks reporting criminal conduct which was not acted on by local law enforcement.

but all of this is off topic - why wont islam reject its vile verses and reject murdering homosexuals and allowing the rape of children by reducing the age of consent to 9. 9. at 9 you should not even know about sex much less having it with a 40 year old.

the issue is how do you make friends with a group that does not want anything from you but your death or conversion?

complain about america all you want - but the government does not refer you case to the local islamic head man and then execute you for being different.

As for 'idolaters, that's you,' ...well that's *you, too* if some Muslim or Protestant doesn't like your crucifix or icon.

You were referred to a thread where that might vaguely be on topic, Frank... with plenty of citations of the sorts of things that happen here in America. Ignoring them as uncited or saying 'Islamic countries are worse' doesn't make it right or even particularly relevant to this discussion.

I probably wouldn't *go* to an Islamic country, for that reason, (I get more than enough of that sort of thing at home, and I'd probably last about as long as the first, 'Oh, Gods, that's a pretty mosque' before things got awkward, :) ) but that doesn't change the situation here in America just cause you want to say, 'Islam is the most evil in the world.' What you gonna 'fight' 'them' with? Slightly-'lesser evil?'

That *never works,* man.

Sure, if 'they' were to come here and try and take over America, I'd fight. We have plenty of Pagan troops serving in the military right now, trying to live up to their oaths and just maybe help prevent this whole ill-advised venture over there from turning *into* some kind of a 'crusade.'

Frankly, if not for the well-documented discriminatory policies and the fact that I was denied proper health care when I was still reasonably-healthy because of discrimination *here* based on not-being-Christian and not-being-straight-cause Christians believe their book says I'm evil for my snuggles, well, I might *be* over there, trying to keep the *frat boys* in some kind of state of conscience.

Fight? sure. We have Gods and Goddesses *of* battle, among other things, complete with carrion birds to remind us what the inevitable result is. But I wouldn't *dehumanize 'All Muslims who follow this book' over it.* That's some dark self-righteous fearmongering fantasy, anyway, mostly pushed by people who aren't planning on being around for the repercussions of what they do, themselves, and you continually make the same excuses for Christianity that you refuse to accept from Muslims.

Personally I think *both* peoples need to get off their butts, stop being *sheep,* and *do something about this mess.*

We do get the intolerance over here. People saying all of the things of which you said, 'How would you like it if your neighbor said these things about you...'

Yeah, some *do* say it about us.

I say to you, why don't you call on *Christians* to renounce the idea that the Bible they use to justify so much pain isn't the 'complete revealed word, sliced any way, eight hundred fifty fourth divinely perfect revision.'

I, for one, have seen enough pointless violence and enough people subjected to things I really just don't feel like talking about right now, Frank, that all *I'm* saying is that maybe you should pause in your obsessive and off-topic *demonizing of entire peoples* and notice the shades of the same forms of intolerance and scriptural authoritarianism and hatred in your *own* surroundings. And self.

Pagans, we've been demonized a lot, too, in a supposedly free and civilized nation.

People that want a *holy war* aren't too thrilled with the free and civilized part.

They scream bloody murder about 'secular oppression' depriving them of free access to *our* kids, while whining that Harry Potter (written by a Christian and with little to do with us) must go, because it *might make some kids *not* hate us.*

I mean. Wow.

One minute, they're saying 'Pagans are a threat to your children because they're behind the evangelical-owned Wal-Mart commercializing Christmas... And the next minute they're trying to say they betrayed their evangelical agenda for not *mandating* the employees say a Christian blessing to everyone.

Wanna see the iceberg under those tips, Frank?

What was it last week, upstanding elderly member of the community has her house of spraypainted with Bible verses and 'Witch Go Home.'

"Police are not investigating this as a hate crime."

News sure don't report it, though they're in a hurry to say 'Pagans may be involved' when a Christian kid gets tired of whatever he's going through and acts out what the *preachers* say is 'witchcraft.'

When we try to speak for ourselves in a positive way, well, then we're 'self-described' Pagans.

What I think is telling is that you're in a real hurry to go telling people 'there are no moderate Muslims' ...try to spam down anything anyone else says, ...so they can do what?

...Then act in complete denial, 'If you think the cops in a lot of places aren't inclined to hep you, then the police would report that.'

What?

You demonstrate just how it happens.

Christianity has its dark side, trust me. You can continue projecting it everywhere else, or you can look at it and do something. Or at least look at it and shut up about how much you hate the other guys.

Cause this *is* my home. I'm not going anywhere right now.

i came acros this. here is the love of islam for pagans. institutionalized love if you will. now dont you like america better?:
http://www.voi.org/books/negaind/ch2.htm
But the Indian Pagans were far too numerous and never fully surrendered. What some call the Muslim period in Indian history, was in reality a continuous war of occupiers against resisters, in which the Muslim rulers were finally defeated in the 18th century. Against these rebellious Pagans the Muslim rulers preferred to avoid total confrontation, and to accept the compromise which the (in India dominant) Hanifite school of Islamic law made possible. Alone among the four Islamic law schools, the school of Hanifa gave Muslim rulers the right not to offer the Pagans the sole choice between death and conversion, but to allow them toleration as zimmis (protected ones) living under 20 humiliating conditions, and to collect the jizya (toleration tax) from them. Normally the zimmi status was only open to Jews and Christians (and even that concession was condemned by jurists of the Hanbalite school like lbn Taymiya), which explains why these communities have survived in Muslim countries while most other religions have not. On these conditions some of the higher Hindu castes could be found willing to collaborate, so that a more or less stable polity could be set up. Even then, the collaboration of the Rajputs with the Moghul rulers, or of the Kayasthas with the Nawab dynasty, one became a smooth arrangement when enlightened rulers like Akbar (whom orthodox Muslims consider an apostate) cancelled these humiliating conditions and the jizya tax.

and why do i mention islam, because there are many that think the most evil is the religions of the old and new testament and you may accidently fall into the islamic trap of thinking they would be better than what you have.
for myself - belive how you want - and i was serious about helping anyone deprived of a recognized civil right. but dont be swayed by the words of people like VIETIJA.
there is a great article that i found about how islamics lie and their basis in the koran but for some reasson i cant get it to post.
just remember - christians dont like you - some would do horible things to you as you have asserted - but they are few in numbers and hundreds of millions of christians would fight for your right to be different.
NOT ONE PRACTICING ISLAMIC WOULD ALLOW YOU TO PRACTICE AS YOU WANT IF YOU WERE IN AN ISLAMIC COUNTRY.

those things you mention have nothing to do with the harms you said existed in reference to crimes but there are no actual references.
as for the president not thinking you are a religion, that is his privilege. i dont think you are a religion, but you can think what you want.
so now you can have the devils pentagram on a tomb stone - i dont care one way or another. and yes it was the mark of the devil long before you decided to make it yours.
for those specific questions for which you provide no proof or answers let me try to addess them.
Why are witches today spat upon and have bibles thrown at their heads? where did this happen? did the government sanction it? was it reported and the person identified and the poplice refused to act? got any proof of that?
Why are homes broken into, people beaten, and beloved pets slaughtered because someone discovered they were pagan? all of those things happen to lots of people who are not pagans so do you have any proof it was for that reason? maybe they were jerks and pissed someone off. maybe they were nice and pissed someone off. your question is just that, a question, and does not presume an answer or even provide proof that it ever happened.
Why are people using a person's pagan religion as a reason to prove someone else 'unfit' as a parent and have their children taken away? i dont know where that is happening, can you be more specific. lots of christians are unfit parents - im sure lots of wiccas are too. what is your point? do wicca have a bible or some government document? maybe the person who is losing a child says he is following a wicca belief and that person isn't and what he/she is doing is harmful to the child. i dont know but you have not provided any facts.
What if it IS a policeman committing such harrassment?? they and the department get prosecuted. any facts here?
Why are Wiccan chaplains not allowed to visit prisoners? what prisoners? where? chaplain to me means military - is that what you are talking about? again you are a little short on facts.

A lot of these things have happened to people I know personally, and worse. well be specific then so that we can make america a better place and have your rights preserved.

but i can tell you this - if you were in an islamic country - this is the relevant passage you would be judged by:

"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).

and that is islams response to people - except the idolitors - that would be you - who allegedly believe in the same god as the islamics do.
now are you happy you are in america and not an islamic country?

Well, Vie, hopefully we'll get around to something a little less... defensive. It can be kind of hard for us to even appear without people claiming certain kinds of authority over us: frankly, religious intolerance is a big issue for many Pagans, for reasons you might see.

Most of us here are also Americans, and we see the country daring-not-question some things which are being used to lead us *all* down some bad roads. Yes, religious ideas, but ones turned to attempts to rule us. Oftentimes, people trying to use our own government.. our own tax dollars, even, for the purpose of repressing us.

For the purpose of divorcing not only our governance, but science itself, from reason. Jeopardizing not only our liberty, but our future itself.

When these are used for these purposes, they become our business to question: to that extent, at least.

I say, if we as Americans ...of all beliefs, are to fully start living up to the *promise* of America, then maybe that means starting to take a little responsibility for our own *culture,* to which we're all heirs.

I certainly didn't expect, as a Caucasian American, to end up in a struggle for my religious liberty.

Someone said we may end up the last acceptable prejudice among many Americans. I say, fine. Let it end with us. (Sooner would be better!)

And it could, too.

If I've done anything at all to that end, then, there, I'm pretty satisfied. :)

Viejita,

I appologize if I misunderstood you...please forgive me.

I thought it was not your usual kind of statement.That is a big problem with trying to have a conversation online. You can not see the person..a good bit of what you get from a conversation and meaning is through the eyes. All we can do is read words, not see eyes.

Blessed be..
terra

At the risk of further misunderstanding:
I felt (and still feel) I have nothing to add in your internal conversation.
I remember in college -- at a large state university -- when I took a class on Jewish history, there were a couple of students who would ask the professor questions like "How do these events prefigure the coming of Christ?" His answer: "They don't."
On this site there are certain commenters who relate every unconnected thought to Christian belief. (Alongside is often a current blaming everything negative on Mohamed.) I wasn't trying to connect anything mentioned here to Christianity. On the contrary, I meant that I felt like a minority on this thread, and I was trying to recognize how that feeling might be what you are used to.
I have plenty of opportunities at church and in the world to hear what other Christians think about things. I come to this site for a broader experience.
I was kibitzing, not complaining. Peanut gallery, not cop.

Typical, isn't it, Priver: "We're not doing this to you cause we're not that kind of people. You are, or they are. Anyone but us."

Seethe is right. Good thing how to breathe through it is one of the first things we usually learn, ennit? :)

Mr. Collins:

You said "it does not exist except in your mind."

Really? Then why did it take 10 years for AMDERICAN Wiccan soldiers to have a pentacle on their tombstone, after having to fight through the courts? Why did our own president declare that he didn't think that 'Wicca is a real religion'?? Why are witches today spat upon and have bibles thrown at their heads?? Why are homes broken into, people beaten, and beloved pets slaughtered because someone discovered they were pagan? Why are people using a person's pagan religion as a reason to prove someone else 'unfit' as a parent and have their children taken away? What if it IS a policeman committing such harrassment?? Why are Wiccan chaplains not allowed to visit prisoners? A lot of these things have happened to people I know personally, and worse.

I refer you to Starhawk's post on the archives of this site entitled 'Discrimination against Pagans' and the threads that follow with very specific news stories about very real events. These are merely a few. I know the others on here have more, some probably have some very painful, personal stories. The horrors are very real, even in this day and age.

Offering to demand our right to be different is one thing, but be VERY careful sir, and make DAMNED sure you know of which you speak before making such statements.

*SEETHE*

Actually, Frank, you said: And I quote *again.*

"how would you like it if your neighbor *said*"

(emphasis added, since you missed the point the first time)

"you were an abomination and he hated you, that it would be ok if you were kidnapped, tortured, held for ransom, raped, and murdered if you did not accept his religion? now very good is it."

Yes, we do hear people say that.

People do commit crimes against us that the police won't investigate in many parts of America, as it happens. All cause they are taught by certain religious politics that we are lesser human beings than those who follow Christianity.

As for what's 'in the mind,' as opposed to your belief, apparently, that only Islam does these things, well, you just haven't been there. Or here, for that matter.

My personal experience was not volunteered. Now get on topic or shut up.

from those who practice islam in the west.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo&mode=related&search=

its a good u tube site.

Paganplace, you said: I think it came along with a certain religious belief in *words,* Priver: if you believe that words can be 'the true message' then along with it comes the belief that 'false' spirit can and/or should be *killed* by burning words and killing people over their 'words.'

Very well said. I think words have a certain power. They can wound and tear apart, and they can also reconcile and forge new connections. Maybe it's placing so much emphasis on one set of words and assuming that it's the only way to find truth. I don't know. It does occur to me that it does kind of seem like a reversal to assume some sort of 'ultimate authority' as found in a book and then try to mold science to fit that view. To me that's a bit like trying to build a house from the roof down.

What I love about history is that there are so many stories that seem to say that no matter how advanced we get, how much we try, we're all subject to Nature and Her whims.

Terra: I agree. What comes as a surprise to me is that the fear isn't just limited to Christians. They may have fear of hell, but others who should know better have fears and hatred of what they don't understand. I just found out that at least one of my family members is a very happy bigot. I was appalled, especially since I had planned to keep part of the symbology out of respect to my roots and to honor them. Why does it seem like even those who have been persecuted as much as the Jews will turn on other people not like them at the drop of a hat? It makes me despair of ever hoping for a real understanding amongst people.

Seems to me like hatred of people like us is one of the last acceptable prejudices. I actually heard a conversation at work where a Muslim woman and a Christian woman were talking about someone who was Jewish and they said "at least she's not pagan". If they only knew..

Makes me wonder why someone doesn't ask the people in this country, supposed to be founded on religious freedom, if Americans really mean what they say about their tolerance for others not like them.

please tell us where in america you are raped, tortured, have body parts cut off, held for ransom, and forced to covert or die and i alone with millions of americans will decend on that place and demand your right to be different.
it does not exist except in your mind.
if any of those things happen the authorities will never say you are a pagan and you deserve it - they investigate - find the perp - try them and if convicted - they get punished.

Science to me has always been been the way the Gods reveal their creation. Each discovery is a new way to understand the universe. If something is disproved...oh well we humans are just walking the path and discovering Nature's truths, not ours. It is not Science V. Religion, Science is the way to understand the Gods in the material world...Not in the Spiritual.

Pagans walk the path child-like...wonder in their eyes..discovering what lies over the hill. There is no preconcieved knowledge...no words set in stone, only a way to live striving for harmony.

The motto of my group is:
From the Roots of the past we carry the Seeds of Tomorrow.

We can only take what we can use from the past...we can not live there. The people of the past had strengths and all the civilizations of today built their beginnings there. There is not a soul on earth whose DNA did not go through a Pagan heart. And when we return to Her we return home.

The discoveries of science got a start in Pagan minds...alchemy, the forerunner of chemistry...from the Philosophers Stone to the Genome Project. Knowledge has always been a passion for Pagans...not a fear. We love diversity, we know it is the strength of nature. It is the diverse forest that grows strong...it is needed in all life.

So many Christians are afraid. Fear lives with them...fear of the different, fear of the future, of the past, fear of their God and fear of their end. All the Pagans I know are so filled with the joy of life that fear can not gain a hold. We know how to play, we sing and dance...we love unconditionaly and we hold our arms wide to our Gods...in love and humble respect...and a great pride. For instead of bowing and scraping as only sinners..We are the Creation of the Gods..and they do not create garbage! Proud and Pagan!

LOL...ok I am on a ranting Roll...

terra

"One thing I've often wondered ("ONE thing?") When and why did science become incompatible with some religions? It didn't always go that way."

I think it came along with a certain religious belief in *words,* Priver: if you believe that words can be 'the true message' then along with it comes the belief that 'false' spirit can and/or should be *killed* by burning words and killing people over their 'words.'

With *that* comes the idea that it's 'defending the faith/Truth' to try and destroy *knowledge of the world.*

Some religions can be at odds with the real world because they were *set up* that way. Perhaps unwittingly.

A lot of scientists have therefore ironically accepted the religious idea that therefore 'religion' and 'science' must inherently be at odds.

An advantage we have as modern Pagans is that we're coming to understand the spirit in the world as we know the world *now* rather than as someone thought should be etched in stone during the Bronze Age.

I mean, when an oscillating universe was the going theory in scientific cosmology, that was pretty convenient to Pagan cosmology, ...when someone said, 'Nah, that's not it,' when something else was, I was like, 'Ah, don't be so sure...' now we're in M-theory with all manner of extra dimensions, and it's all sorting out in ways I think are going to be darn interesting.

We've got some of the benefit of looking back on 'Book Religion's' history and being aware of *what this kind of thing is not good for.*

Personally, in terms of the way a lot of folks evaluate religions, I think that may be why Lady might have looked at Unca Jerry and said, 'OK, you'll do fine for this, cause no one's gonna build an altar to *you* ...for long. :) '

Well, if things really worked that way, on which point I remain unconvinced, but I can see the lesson, anyway.

Pagan religious aren't opposed to science because we're not *based* on *the sort of claims about the world* that book religions necessarily are.

People seeking the Gods through nature and experience don't run into the problems that those who seek to be 'base nature' supplicating 'ultimate authority' and then trying to construct their universe as though 'perfect information' then propagates back 'down' as long as you pick the right authority.

Never mind living with it.

We're as much products of *modernity* as *antiquity,* and it's important to remember that, I think. Lest we forget.

Blessed Be, everyone!

One thing I'm learning is that so many people see us as having an almost debatable right to exist.

Unfortunately, I was drawn into what I honestly thought was a simple discussion designed to promote acceptance and understanding, but is turning into the use of a book as a weapon. I guess I like to believe the best about people. I'm trying to extricate myself before becoming as dogmatic as they are, but find myself trying to address some things that are probably designed to insult and inflame. For those of you out there who have spent much longer than I holding these types of conversations (which is probably everyone), could you offer any suggestions?

One thing I've often wondered ("ONE thing?") When and why did science become incompatible with some religions? It didn't always go that way. The more I learn, about both science AND magic, the more I marvel at the wonders of the Goddess.

To Viejita: We are (at least I am, I can't speak for anyone else) happy to share what we feel in the spirit of education, acceptance and greater mutual understanding. But this does come with real risk that others may or may not have experienced.

I for one have more of a problem with those who shout about how good a Christian they are and try to proselytize to me and 'save my soul' and less with one who may be just as sincere in their belief in Jesus who don't proselytize but who quietly make taking care of others a priority in their lives.

" Viejita del oeste:

I usually find the comments from the Wiccans more open-minded and inclusive than many other threads, but this time I feel like I happened onto a closed discussion.
I guess this is how you folks feel around lots of the majoritarian Christians..."

Uh, what? Gods forbid we should be able to talk about how *we* feel without Christianity coming into it. This doesn't mean you're *excluded,* Vie. It means the topic isn't the 'controversial' idea of whether we should be tolerated or accepted or respected.

I think in terms of the broader sort of 'Faith in the news' discussion on this forum, there ought to be some room for that. Mostly what we experience from Christians is a diversion of the subject into defending ourselves against intolerance, or into people trying to use 'Christianity' to 'prove' that Pagans should be Christians.

I think a key thing is that for many Christians, we aren't *people.* Or 'A' people. We're an *issue* or a *heterodoxy* or some such thing.

It doesn't particularly make this easier, admittedly, that rather than feeling we have justification and even mandate to 'witness' to others about what we've experienced, that we're actually as a rule quite suspicious of the concept.

Nonetheless, believe it or not, we do have an existence independent of Christianity you could possibly be interested in knowing about. We usually just see it come back twisted and recontextualized by attackers, anyway, and, really, people who may be a bit bewildered that we don't really have any authoritative books or clear dogma...

For such a heavily-intellectual and often scholarly people, that's pretty unusual, wouldn't you think? We don't even have a real idea of 'conversion,' as a rule... the word newcomers use over and over again is, 'Homecoming.' In a broad sense we don't require Gods to be in need of or requiring 'Proof,' whether that happens to be good proof or not... it's just not the kind of priority you get when someone hands you a book of rules with self-referential authority and tells you 'Believe and Obey.'

I'd be wanting some proof, myself, if that were the case: but there's a reason it's not this manic fifteen-hundred-year debate for us. Pascal's Wager is a sucker's bet to us. If the Gods didn't exist, well, most Pagans wouldn't have done anything joykilling in hopes of future reward, anyway. Most of us would in fact, greet the usual bugbear 'What if it's not like you thought when you die' with a sense of *adventure.* Not fear. At least not any more than is natural to the body. :)

Personally, I'm just confident the Gods can do their own darn recruiting, and it's probably safer that way for all concerned. :)

So, I'd be curious to see who's interested in talking *to* us, rather than at us. At risk of finding us less bizarre than it's entertaining to think. :)

"im glad you have a good life and you enjoy it. how would you like it if your neighbor said you were an abomination and he hated you, that it would be ok if you were kidnapped, tortured, held for ransom, raped, and murdered if you did not accept his religion? now very good is it.
welcome to the world under islam."

Welcome to what Pagans and LBGT people live with in America, from certain Christian quarters, Frank.

im glad you have a good life and you enjoy it. how would you like it if your neighbor said you were an abomination and he hated you, that it would be ok if you were kidnapped, tortured, held for ransom, raped, and murdered if you did not accept his religion? now very good is it.
welcome to the world under islam.

Viejita,

I do not understand your responce...who said anything about Christianity? Who blames a religion for what is happening...?

Ok the leadership of this country is Christians...just like in the last administration...but Clinton did not allow the New American Century group to push him into war swith Iraq. It was not him that used 9-11 to attack a nation that was innocent. It was this administration...it has nothing to do with the religion..but the people.

There is a segment of Christianity that believe in the neccessary battle, and of the Rapture...and bringing that into existance.

I have nothing against the majority religion as a religion. I do have alot against those people who cause chaos between peoples, useing religion and bigotry.

I am angry, but more then angry I am sad. I see the world from eyes that see energy lines of connection. A pebble thrown in a pool causes ripples even under the sand. A law that cuts out bankrupcy for medical bills causes the lose of a home and a family on the streets. A tax cut for the wealthy causes children's after school programs to be cut out. Huge money give-aways as incentives for oil companies give them huge profits and us more poverty.

This has nothing to do with God, this has to do with greed and a goal of end times.

I am Wiccan, and American...this is my country and I have every right to be angry. In the 60's we would be on the streets...DC would be packed with citizens. We are now the Silent Majority...fear that has been pushed agaisnt terrorism has been aimed at us. Free speach zones... illegal wire taps, phone records, email opened by the feds...Fed attourneys fired and political hacks put in their place...why? More corruption then Watergate...
What does this have to do with religion....this is caused by dishonest, dishonerable men. Religion is a tool for them, just like it was for Falwell, is for Dobson, Robertson and the rest of that unholy bunch.

Goddess is good and so is your God...maybe together we, their followers, can cause a change, after all a pebble in a pond makes a stir in the ocean.

Many Blessings,
terra

Viejits,

Huh? The responses I've seen speak of satisfaction on a personal level, but dissatisfaction regarding the global situation, which seems to be a fairly consistent position on all the threads.

What???

Viejita...I find your comment without merit. Truth be truth that a majority does not make right, only many blind followers of male created self centered power seekers. I am quite an intelligent person but your words seem to be coming from another plane of existance.
I suppose when people speak from the heart it may be difficult for those who are challenged with in their own confusion. May you someday find a healing, loving, inclusive heart.

I usually find the comments from the Wiccans more open-minded and inclusive than many other threads, but this time I feel like I happened onto a closed discussion.
I guess this is how you folks feel around lots of the majoritarian Christians....

Thank You Starhawk
Thank You Terra

I completely agree with you and feel the pain our Mother Earth and all its Creatures are suffering.
I too am happy in my personal life and thankful for all the blessings that I have received, my soulmate and Love, my health, my simple hand made home in the woods...
Yet my heart aches and I feel so small. I cannot be satisfied. What can I do that will make any difference? First not add to the pain and second to teach with my love and example that all life is precious and that I will never become like those that would hate, discriminate or try to destroy me because I may be a threat to their selfish greed for power.
Revenge and killing only perpetuates itself. If only there were Magic strong enough that could break this cycle of destruction. "Goddess how I try!"

I participated in my local CodePink Peace gathering on Mother's Day. We had mostly positive responses, yet when asked to join and participate with us most had an excuse that they had no time or that they would leave it up to others. Sad...so very sad. My body might not be here in the future when the pain of this generations self-centered, self-distructive lifestyles effect my granddaughter and son, but if its within my power, my spirit will continue on and in some small way I will do my best to make a difference.

May the sun shine on every heart and release the suffering and hate. Let the rain wash the ignorance from the mind and nourish the growth of understanding. Then rainbows will dance across the sky to celebrate peace and love.

Starhawk, Blessings...
As always your writing is beautiful and to the point.

I have thought about this question and here is my 2 cents.

I love my life, a wonderful husband that enables me to rejoice in the Gods, while not being Pagan himself...two great kids that are living happy healthy lives with homes of their own..lol.

I live in the country and wake to bird song and chickens scratching. The sun is shining and the roses are blooming...all is well in my corner of the world.

So why am I frustrated and foot stomping angry?

I see the bee population disappearing and my fruit trees will not bare if this contiues...and are people really careing what this can mean?

There are men and women coming back from a war of election with life changing injuries, of body and mind...does anyone care that it was for a lie?

Ice is melting...can we move all the people along all the coasts inland...way inland? Trees are being cut down and we will sufficate with our own breath...but heck most of us will be long dead so what if it is our children or grandchilren.

So what if the republicans are voteing against a bill to bring affordable housing to the poor, who cares about politics? Who really cares about the poor? After all the people in New Orleans and Mississippi can live in FEMA trailors for good...I heard on bbc that over 2000,000 families in America are facing eviction from their homes. Have you heard this on our media?

What if people in a far away land called Darfur are being decimated?? After all they are poor and have no power...do they have oil?

What matters if talking heads on TV give slanted information about the news? Does it matter it is just for rateings...after all angry viewers watch more of that type of show...does it matter that it only blurs the facts? After all its freedom of the press.

Does it matter that this forum of On Faith did not ask one question dealing with Wicca. When finally after 10 years we won The Quest. We won against an agency of the United States government because it was proved to be a case of discrimination that involved our president. Yet this forum did not think it was a thing to ask about? But questions about the Pope and his bigoted statement was ok?

Ok..I am a angry Witch...and an angry American...
So while pleased with my life...I worry about others who are suffering pain, discrimination, death and destruction.

Goddess Bless!
terra

If you ask a person if they are satisfied with his or her life and they say yes, they are lying. They may not know they are lying. They are happy at the time. They haven't desired to keep learning, and keep progressing. In that sense, we can never be fully happy or content. All we can do is be thankful that we have what we have, and always strive to achieve more. I am not saying get more movies, video games, cars, or money. Try to achieve more personally. Always hope, always dream, and never let go of what makes you happy.

I always like Starhawk's posts. She makes me smile.

And of course, Andrea also. (She called me "sunshine")

It's always such a pleasure to read Starhawk's responses. This is more of a yes-and-no question, and Starhawk addresses each beautifully.