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The Bible is being taught as LITERATURE not as a RELIGION. It is also not mandatory, its an Elective that students can choose to take or not. Like it or not, the Bible has influenced much of the art, music, and literature of today's society and people should know where that is coming from.

In case Athena is still around, here is the "Children Pull Out Your Chickens" story:

http://www.jamesfuqua.com/lawyers/jokes/chickens.shtml

- mike

I was raised Christian by my minister father and my Sunday School teacher mother. My mother was raised Catholic, my father Baptist. We were taught their beliefs but were not forced to follow them. Even with my parents so involved in their Church, we were never Baptised. They felt that a child was too young to fully understand what it meant. My mother always told me that I was different, but she didn't know what it was or how to deal with it. She told me I would find my path when I was ready. I found Wicca when I was fairly young. I was soul-searching as well as researching. I knew this was the path I needed to take and when I expressed this to my mother, she knew also.

My point in explaining this is that I was so grateful for the acceptance from my mother and I felt more free to follow my heart. I knew when I had my daughter that it was my duty as a mother, as a human, to help my daughter find her path as well. It is up to me to teach what she cannot learn in school. Religion is not the only thing that is not taught in school. We as parents are always picking up where the school system leaves off. It is our job. She is only four now, but when she is old enough to understand, I will not only teach her about Wicca, I will teach her about other faiths as well. I want my daughter to have understanding and compassion for others no matter their faith. It is important for us as parents to teach our children how to be good people regardless of religion, race, sex, etc. It is unfortunate that in this day and age people cannot get their acts together enough for it to be possible for religion and faith to be taught in school. In a perfect world, all faiths would be taught in school. In a perfect world, all children would be free to follow their hearts and choose which faith suits them. This world is not perfect and I feel that it is not yet the right time to introduce faith into a school curriculum for children. Until this world becomes perfect, I will do my duty and raise my child to understand and respect the world and the people who live in it.

Sure whenever you reach a large enough membership to warrant it being called a world religion. Basically what you've got is a religion based upon the the hypocratic oath and little arcane and occult mumbo jumbo.

Frankly we ought to be teaching at least the basic tenets of all religions in public schools. It ought to be a basic part of the history curriculum. And everything to do with history is becoming increasingly controversial from the currently in vogue teaching of the Crusades as an assault by the Christain West upon the peaceful Moslem world rather than the 2 century late response to Islams assaults upon the Nominally Christian Byzantine Empire that it was.

Absolute cleanliness is Godliness! Who else but God gave man Love that can spark mere dust to life! Poetry, uniting All-One! All brave! All life! Who else but God! "Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!

Einstein, 1939, after Nazis & Commies united, proposed spacebombs that destroy all, unless we finally teach the Moral ABC's the real Rabbi Hillel taught Jesus to unite all in All-One-God-Faith. As teach astronomers Abraham - Israel - Moses - Buddha - Hillel - Jesus - Spinoza - Paine - Sagan & Mohammed, inspired every 76 years, 6000 years by the Messenger of God's Law, the sign of the Messiah, Halley's Comet: "WE'RE ALL ONE OR NONE!" "THERE IS NO GOD BUT GOD!" "TEACH LOVE THY ENEMY!" "LISTEN CHILDREN ETERNAL FATHER ETERNALLY ONE!" Israel-Moses-Buddha-Jesus-Mohammed: ONE! ALL ONE!

In this way they could have their souls diluted with the blood of the lamb.

Tell me, did they also teach them about irony?

Sorry, that was a baaaaaad joke. I've got nothing against Christianity (in theory). I guess you might say I'm not sheepish about my views on Jesus' fan club though?

"The Old Deluder" huh? Pfft! If prostitution is the world's oldest profession then preaching about it must surely be the second...

"The first instance of public education in America was in the Massachusetts Bay colony in 1647. A law passed that year stated, "It is therefore ordered that every township in this jurisdiction, after the Lord hath increased them to fifty households shall forthwith appoint one within their town to teach all such children as shall resort to him to write and read…" Interestingly, the name of this law was the The Old Deluder Act, and its stated purpose was to keep children from being deluded by Satan. How? By teaching them to read, so they could read the scriptures."

I beg to differ. If you have the time please visit: http://www.faithofourfathers.org/essays/rewrittinghistory.html.

If you don't have the time, I'll steal a paragraph and post it for you here:

The final evidence is the sheer weight of the number of times our Founding Fathers quoted the Bible. In a review of 15,000 items from the founders, the Bible was found to have directly contributed to 34% of their quotes. 60% came indirectly, so the Bible can be credited in some way for 94% of the quotes of the Founding Fathers. (p. 48-49, America's God and Country, William J. Federer ) All in all, it is fairly clear that our founding fathers were Christians, not deists. And to further clarify, deists were not the driving force behind the First Amendment guarantee of Freedom of Religion, Baptists in Virginia were. But that's another story.

The website is certainly worth a visit.

I have absolutely no problem with the teaching ABOUT religiion in schools as long as no favoritism is shown toward one religion or another and there are no attempts to convert students. And incidentally, to KM who posted on March 19; Thomas Jefferson, one of the most prominent of the FOUNDING FATHERS, was a DEIST. Look up the definition!

You are forgetting in your argument that the founders of this nation did not consider such things as wicca to be "religion". The definition of religion to them was based on judeo-christian beliefs and when they granted the idea of religious freedom it was not intended to give freedom to the forms of religion you are offering to teach.

This is not to say that you are necessarily wrong, but to argue that the FOUNDING FATHERS intended wicca/witchcraft/paganism/etc to be covered under freedom of religion, is incorrect.

I'm from Canada, Ontario to be exact. I went to a catholic high school and we had religion classes every year. They weren't difficult, and someetimes I found they even connected to pagan ideals (of course most of the time it didn't). Not everyone that was in a catholic high school was actually catholic (but a family member was, and that's the only requirement to get in).But as part of our circulum, we also had one class on world religions that was manditory. I very much enjoyed the class. It taught all the major religions such as christianity (obviously), judaism, hindu, and islam. But also at the end of the class there was a culminating project in which a person could choose any religion they like (of course with consent of the teacher. who, by the way, was very understanding of all religions even though she was catholic). I didn't do wiccan, pagan or the like (someone else had choosen that already). Instead, I choose shinto from Japan.
Anyway what I'm saying is that type of thing exists, just not in the USA. But then again I don't know much about the American school system (Ontario has two different school boards, catholic and public).

Amein! and Blessed Be to that! That's all I have to say...for now (hehehe). With love from a militantly (a.k.a. extraordinarily active) proactivist Wiccan Reform Jew (and I'm not just talking culturally Jewish either).

I live in Georgia, and am not at all happy with the thought of bible classes in public schools. Even non-required classes require paid instructors and class materials...who do you think is paying for all that? I do not want my children having christian dogma shoved down their throats in these classes, and I don't want to pay taxes for the christian families to send their kids to sunday school during the school day!

Taraerin wrote early in theses comments:

What about the Atheists? They are entitled to their beliefs.

Taraerin, listen closely. This is not only Atheism 101; it is also the definition of the term and the only profitable way to consider atheists. *In terms of invisible supernatural spooks, atheists DO NOT have beliefs!*

They may have knowledge. They may have opinions. They may assign certain probabilities to questions dealing with things that no one has certain knowledge of. They may, in moments of reflection or while engaged in stimulating argument, use the phrase "I believe" but this is merely a convention of language, learned at an early age, and difficult to avoid.

Ok, I was wrong above. As an atheist I do have beliefs. I believe that my mother loves me, I believe that I love my children and I believe that I will be forever exasperated by those who claim to know the answers to unanswerable questions. Why do I believe so? Because there is plentiful proof! And I can put these "beliefs" to the test. And I can use these "beliefs" to predict future events with astonishing accuracy. And I can do it in real time and obtain results almost instantly. Beats the hell out of prayer, meditation, positive thinking or deciding not to think at all.

Please try to remember that atheists do not "believe that there are no gods" or "is no God". They have simply concluded, usually following a path similar to that taken by the devout, that the utter lack of evidence for invisible supernatural spooks (and their questionably intense interest in us) provides an utter dearth of reasons to assume that any such thing(s) exist.

Oh, yes. Please tell your friends. Thanks!

Athiest, Buddhist, Catholic, Dervish or Embu,
Frisian, Gaoshan, Hopi, Islam, Jew,
Khasi, Lebu, Montauk, Naga, Ovimbundu,
Pantheist, Quaker, Raelian, Shinto or Tembu,
Ungwe, Vodoun, Wiccan, Xango, Yao and Zulu,
If you haven't sent your thirty bucks,
You can all just go get f*cked,
That goes for you and you and you...

You've got to learn to think for yourself, but only "Bob" can show you how.

$30 for eternal salvation or TRIPLE YOUR MONEY BACK!

The mighty Church of the SubGenius - the best of all the ONE TRUE RELIGIONS.

www.subgenius.com

If anyone here thinks that the Christians will be content with simply teaching a fluffy "Bible as Lit" course in public schools really needs a to have a HUGE bowl of wakethef*ckup for breakfast

These people have no other agenda than turning the U.S. into a strict christian-only society, and many of them would just as soon "send us to jesus"(kill) as look at us. Im not referring to moderate Christians here (like quakers), but the wingnut fundamentalists who hold the reigns in our government and society.

The proverbial writing IS on the wall, folks. Its just a matter of time

PS: if you havent already, check out:

www.theocracywatch.org.

Its a good place to start

Jim S. wrote:
---In sum, schools should teach the objective phenomenology of major world religions. Leave it to other institutions, such as parenthood and churches, to teach the subjective faith-based facets of religion. (Full disclosure: I am an atheist.)---

Its your atheism that allows you to look at this objectively. However most people are not atheists and would have a tizzy if their child was taught another religion since it would worry them that their kids would compare it to their own religion and have doubts or, worse, convert. I noticed that my daughter was being taught ancient religions in her public school 8th grade history class, such as Egyptian, Greek and Roman, but was never taught the specifics of Judism, Christianity or Islam. I'm sure its no accident that only dead religions are allowed to be taught. We did have a good time comparing the specifics of the Book Of The Dead with Judaeo-Christianity-Islam's promise of heaven. Of course, that discussion took place at home, not in the school.

The problem as I see it is that you cannot have an unbiased class and even if you could find the right teacher to make it unbiased, the parents would never trust the teacher of a different religion teaching their child, or trust their child not to be influenced. That's why religion is so unique among life's lessons and should remain separate from other schooling. You don't need to believe in history, english or math (well, except quantum mechanics :). When it comes to fantasy (I'm an atheist too), it should be kept out of the schools since it is a personal issue.

i love the idea of a wiccan lesson pan, i would definatly use it in my homeschooling of my 12 yr old, they have lost so much in public schools, with peer pressure, and teachers having to many students per teacher ratio, my son has health issues, and, because of this he got negleted as an individual, and the books that are out there for homeschool, are all chritstian based? which i dont have a real problem with, its better than him learning other things, i was a chritian when i was a child, and i want my son to do well in life, and with the schools loosing so much, i would love to add a lesson plan for wicca ethics etc. he doesnt know the half of it and with 4 other subjects and more i need to cover, i dont have time to teach him everything i want him to know off the lesson plans. kudos to the idea!!

Brambleton wrote (at 12:32 PM last):

"If you choose to be gay or engage in a transgender relationship, that's fine, it's your choice."

No, Brambleton, I'm afraid it's not "you's" choice. Biology and nature made that choice for him/her.

Regards.

Jim S:

I completely agree with you on the matter of keeping religious teaching objective. Can't think of a better way to cause that most dreaded of events - actual thought by students.

Barena:

Glad you found your path. Equally, I'm glad you allow or even encourage others to find theirs. As an atheist, I have no problem with that. So long as your beliefs don't run the secular world, whatever works is right.

After reading all these posts about teaching religion in school...I got a headache. When I was in high school, we were taught about the basic tenets of religions that created a cause and effect in world history. Religious dogma of any type wasn't a part of the course. Typically ,there was always someone who had a comment to make about their personal beliefs...but so what? It was not being presented as a RELIGIOUS TEACHING by the instructor. What I learned at school was discussed at home around the dinner table ..and my folks were progressive, intelligent people. Religion of any kind always made for a great after dinner debate, discussion and generally a trip to the encyclopedia (just to check out the facts). My folks were not people who held any dogma as truth but rather sought their own paths to spirituality. It's how I found my way to Witchcraft....to being a Jesus freak ...and returning to the Pagan path. What I learned about myself through the spiritual journeys of my life have stood me in good stead
I, in turn, allowed my children the same freedom to discover their own path to Deity. I feel even more blessed that my karma dropped me at that kitchen table. I hope you all with children are able to guide your kids through whatever the school system throws out there. Blessed Be. Oh yeah, Dana Eilers...I remember you from many years ago...St.Louis..Prosecutor's office...Public Defender??? Can't quite remember. Anyhow, I heard you were on the path...Glad you are using your talents to promote our rights as Pagans and Wiccans. Thank you.

It is the obligation of public schools to prepare students to become informed and engaged citizens of the United States and members of the world community at large. Religion plays a significant role in national and world events; so to deny students formal religious education, particularly that which teaches the objective phenomenology of major world religions, would leave a large portion of young citizens unprepared to handle and comprehend the vicissitudes and complexities of current events. Public schools would be remiss to deny their students such a critical part of our modern condition.

In sum, schools should teach the objective phenomenology of major world religions. Leave it to other institutions, such as parenthood and churches, to teach the subjective faith-based facets of religion.

(Full disclosure: I am an atheist.)

Jihadist,

As far as the elements??? you are made up of the elements, the same things that made the universe made you. We Witches just get down to the basics, Air, Fire, water, earth...how do you see those things? How do you Feel them? Think about what those things are.

Think flameing bonfire under a full moon, the drums are beating and the sound pulls you...there is nothing else...you, the fire, the moon and the dark sky and the drumming in your blood. You are one with all of it..there is nothing else.

It is one of the most powerfully religious feelings you will ever have.

Fate,

"If you're still paranoid and afraid the Wiccan classes would be packed, add a parent's signed approval for the course".

As a teacher of Wicca I can guartentee that those kids who would pack the class room would leave in a short while. When they found out the first year was nothing but Ethics, history, manners and sacred texts...they do not stay. You have to be called, its too much work to just stay in for fashion or rebellion.

As far as telling kids about Wicca it would be too hard. There is no way they would understand anything but the most surface information unless you could spend about 3 months on the bare basics.

There would have to be a Wiccan explaining it, then all they could do is talk about their tradition.

I'm happy we can even have this discussed. It couldn't happen in Iraq.

I'm an athiest btw.

Starhawk

"Invoking the elements, dancing wildly ‘round the bonfire, how to correctly worship the Goddess and our Pagan Gods" sounds very interesting actually.

Never heard of Wiccans/Pagans starting wars in the name of the Great Mother Goddess of the Earth. And much to learn from them on respect for nature.

I really enjoyed dancing around bonfires when I was a girl guide, girl scout. I wish I knew how to invoke the elements.

Oh Bramby baby...

Clearly, you believe that force feeding is to be preferred to kids making choices. You appear to think that allowing that choice is a sign of weakness. Trust me, kids are making all manner of choices, including religious, all the time. Many of those are based on resentment of just the forced feeding you espouse. Think of all the good literature which is avoided like the plague after a semester or two of Eng. Lit.

More to the point, the central problem is still just whose superstitions will we give our support to? Once that choice is made then those not included are no longer "real".

" I much prefer spending my day arguing about religion with strangers on the internet"

To steal a line from the Washington Compost, "If you don't get it, you just don't get it."

Oh Brambleton,

Jerry Springer? Au contraire my good man, my time is far too precious. I much prefer spending my day arguing about religion with strangers on the internet.

You see, I am a thinker. ; )

Bless you,

I'm surprised that you could pull yourself away from the Jerry Springer show long enough to post an insignificant sentence or two on this thread. Baby steps man, baby steps.

Starhawk was one of my favorite shows as a kid. If I remember correctly it came on right after CHiPs and before Dukes of Hazzard.

Ahh, good times.

Poor persecuted Brambleton....

Boy you white, male, middle-aged Protestants sure can't catch a break in America.

Thank you for giving us all strength with your perserverance. Must be tough.

Forest wrote:
"To keep silent on all religions is to teach Atheism, which is a religion in itself."

Wrong and wronger. Atheism is not a religion because it does not theistic.

One aspect of this topic that is not being discussed is WHO would teach a course ABOUT religion? As one poster pointed out, when other religions were discussed in the Catholic school it was with a bias on them being wrong. In order to teach such a class in a primary/secondary school, you'd need an unbiased teacher. I doubt you could find a competent one. The closest you could come would be a PhD in Comparative Religious Studies and even then there is a danger of the students feeling lectured to or given permission to lecture others about the religion they are being taught. Here's a good article about the problem:
http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/article_archive/indialogue_edwards.html

So it might seem like a good idea to teach ABOUT religion in some neutral environment but such an environment will only rarely exist in the primary and secondary school levels. So, I think the best you can do is be up front about what is being taught and who is teaching it. Have a religion class in secondary schools that is funded by the religions that want to teach their religion and have it taught by their teachers for free. Priests could teach catholicism, rabbis could teach judiasm, imams islam. Make the course an elective and available to all students of all backgrounds with ground rules that there is to be no prostylitizing and the class will be to study the religion, not attend a religious service. It might be a can of worms but religion is too sensitive to try sanitizing it as some general study. By opening it up to all students on a non-mandatory basis, letting the experts in the religion teach it, regulating prostylitizing, and putting the costs on the religion and not the school system (teachers work for free), it just might work! Add to it that only classes with a minimum number of students signed up can be held and you eliminate the need for provide class space for all religions. You'd only have available the ones some minimum number of students signed up for. This shouldn't pack the school with christian classes in Kansas since I'm sure many students in Kansas are eager to learn about, say, islam. If you're still paranoid and afraid the Wiccan classes would be packed, add a parent's signed approval for the course.

Rafael stated:
>>Jesus was, more or less, a hippie
Tday asked:
>>Expound, please.

Counter-culture, anti-establishment, preached peace, love, understanding, and so on...

Here is a more elaborate and scholarly perspective you might find interesting:
http://ezinearticles.com/?Jesus-Was-a-Hippie&id=55915

Corbie,

My comments re: sex ed were directed at the thought that the Bible was too sexual in nature to be discussed in a classroom. Which is complete nonsense given the sexual nature already available. I don't think anyone would disagree that we should be advocates for safe sex, I just don't think it belongs in school. If anyone should be teaching my children about sex, it's me.

Secondly, I made no mention of "hating" anyone in my post. If you choose to be gay or engage in a transgender relationship, that's fine, it's your choice. But that's where it should remain. There is absolutely no logical reason whatsoever, that a child needs to sit and watch a movie on said activity. In Massachusetts, a high school staged a "gay awareness day" in which a male counselor told the students his story of falling in love with his sister's husband. Where is the "tolerance" message in that?

It's completely idiotic to believe that you can't have tolerance of people unless you see a stupid video telling you to be tolerant when you're in 8th grade.

Bobby: "Freedom does not mean that you have the right to not be offended. Freedom means that everyone has the right to offend everyone and as long as no one is physically hurt it should be acceptable...That is the idea that this country was founded on, the idea of Freedom, that everyone has the right to believe what they want, no matter who disagrees with you as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. "

Well put.

Another point that many miss is that one's freedom of speech does not constitute an obligation on anyone else's part to listen. you are guaranteed the right to spread your message, even if it offends others - you are not guaranteed an audience. That seems to be the part that many find troublesome - they think that if people choose not to listen to them, that their right to speak has been violated.

Interfatih discusions are a wonderful thing. Teaching about religion would be a good thing in schools as long as the teachers did so in a neutral manor. Christianity is no longer a good religion. The teachings of Jesus Christ were wonderful. I hope everyone sees the difference. Broken down to their simplest form most, if not all, religions are the same. Religion teaches about being good to others and doing what is right. Remember that freedom means that as long as it does not violate any one else's rights it can be said or done. This means that I can burn an American Flag in protest, or go out and scream at the top of my lungs (at a reasonable hour of the day) that the Cristian GOD is the root of all evil, or say that all Witches Worship the Devil and are going to hell, or that all white people are slavers, or that all black people are gangsters. That is freedom. Freedom does not mean that you have the right to not be offended. Freedom means that everyone has the right to offend everyone and as long as no one is physically hurt it should be acceptable. That is what we, as Americans, should be fighting for. That is the idea that this country was founded on, the idea of Freedom, that everyone has the right to believe what they want, no matter who disagrees with you as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Be Blessed, by whoever you worship.
Love, Light, and Peace to All!

I understand your comments weren't directed at me, Brambleton, but I wonder if you might be able to clarify something for me. You seem to be placing sex ed classes on the same level as religious ones-- as though by teaching one, we discriminate against the other. Do you really believe that by teaching children ways to avoid disease and unwanted pregnancy, we are somehow subverting the place of religion? Do you believe that children, particularly teenagers, have such a fragile grasp of morals that mere exposure to a sex ed class will cause them to become promiscuous? And if so-- doesn't that say more about the way that child was raised than whatever they've encountered in the schools?

My own opinion is that advocacy of safe sex does not denigrate a religion's own views on the subject. Sex ed classes are primarily to prevent disease and unwanted pregnancy (and better a condom than an abortion, eh?), not to endorse promiscuity. To think anything else seems mere prurience.

On your other sticking point, the encouragement of tolerance of alternative families, you are free to believe whatever you wish, certainly, and to teach your children whatever you wish. But saying "God hates fags" or "gays are wrong" in class or on the job is a good way to lose one's presence in either. We teach tolerance because being civil to others, even when you dislike them, is a requirement in society-- and because being civil is easier than being nasty.

And for my last tuppence. In my school, neither safe sex nor tolerance of gay families has ever been endorsed by a school official, or taught in a class. Yet we still have teenage sex, teenage pregnancies, and gay students.

We also don't directly endorse Christianity (except in that Bible History class I mentioned earlier.) Yet we still have Christian students.
Some of them are having sex. Some of them are pregnant. And some of them are gay.

Brambleton: "Yes, we should all have our backbones removed and let children make the decisions. Good grief. As Bill Cosby said, "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out of it." End of story."

While it is crucial that everyone have at least a basic knowledge of many things in order to function in the world (basic literacy and math skills, for example), other subjects can and should be left up to the kids to decide - that's why schools offer electives.

What (if any) religion she wished to practice was one of the life choices that I have left to my daughter's discretion from the time she was little.

Hey Russell D,

Pass the popcorn, I think it'll be fun too.

Sounds like Brambleton has his teeth out. This should be fun.

Candle,

You stated, "Based on all the sex and violence in the Bible I don't know how anyone could teach it in a public school anyway." Are you kidding me? Have you seen a TV show or movie lately? Your statement is complete nonsense. Apparently, however, it's okay to teach kids how to put a condom on a cucumber and to indoctrinate them on gay & transgender family groups.

Unknown,

"I REALLY appreciate her final point about the negative effect of making any subject required in a school." Yes, we should all have our backbones removed and let children make the decisions. Good grief. As Bill Cosby said, "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out of it." End of story.

Carol,

Could you please expound further on your statement that "fundamentalist Christians do not have as their goal anything like an Interfaith discussion but rather a Christian dominated state religion."? Thanks.

You want a religion that doesn't pray to a God or more than one God? Look into the eastern religions. I know that a specific sect of Buddhism prays to no God, it allows you to overcome obstacles by looking inside yourself and accepting everybody for who they are. Maybe if the religions that worship a God or Gods are too much, you could always go for that. But hey, I like the Wiccan religion. Seems way more open than the other religions, and to me, being able to express yourself and not be repressed is the best way to go.

Just a couple of questions...(1) When does a superstition become a religion and the reverse? Native American beliefs are superstitions, while xians have the TRUTH.(2) Does god have a future? When the worshipers go away, does the god exist? (Who Mourns Apollo?) (3) Does the degree of fervor with which a belief is held make it valid? (4) How can there be sooooo many divinely inspired religions?

The whole point of this blog is to point out that to create a mandatory curriculum is to choose which beliefs are valid. I contend the number of believers alone does not confer any objective validity. As a lifelong teacher, I REALLY appreciate her final point about the negative effect of making any subject required in a school.

I strongly suspect any curriculum would deal with what the religions say, not how religions come into being, how they disappear, and how they are attempts to deal with the natural world. I'll wager that's not at all what the folks in GA have in mind.

"To keep silent on all religions is to teach Atheism, which is a religion in itself."

Forest, that is complete nonsense.

For starters, if you truly believe that atheism is a religion in-of-itself you cannot then claim that to be silent on religion is to teach it. To remain silent is to teach nothing, so that could only be teaching atheism if atheism were a religion self-evident to the senses.

Basically, to keep silent on all religions is to leave everyone to their own religious traditions. I think the rise in fundamentalism in America can, ironically enough, be blamed on the lack of religious education. Each person is indoctrinated into their own religion by their own family and there is no obligation to take the religious beliefs and traditions of others seriously, or even to take an properly academic inquiry into one's own tradition.

If atheism were a neutral position, your claim that 'silence on religion is the same as preaching atheism' would be true. However, as you have recognised, atheism is a kind of religious position itself (albeit a pretty simple one). Atheism is a denial of theistic religious beliefs.

Perhaps that is why atheism and agnosticism is much more common in the UK where religious education is taught and faith schools are common. One can hardly become an atheist unless one first becomes involved in an inquiry into religious beliefs and traditions such as religious education provides. (Temples, Churches, Synagogues, Gurudwaras, etc. do not allow for such an inquiry as they are limited by the central tenets of their own tradition, and do not consider the whole range of religious ideas.)

I'm a student at an Interfaith Seminary in New York City and spent the first year studying the major faiths -- with an opportunity to choose one from the "left-over" list. It's a wonderful thing to know about how people worship around the world. After all we are all praying to the same "God" "Spirit" "Higher Power" whatever one calls the Supreme Being.
I've also studied world religions at the college level over the years. Not an easy subject and hardly possible in high schools. As the world gets smaller we need to know and respect other cultures. However, the fundamentalist Christians do not have as their goal anything like an Interfaith discussion but rather a Christian dominated state religion.

To keep silent on all religions is to teach Atheism, which is a religion in itself. The discussion on religion and truth is unavoidable. Our beliefs directly effect our everday decisions and actions. To not address the silent elephant in the corner is to teach that the elephant is false.

Watch this video from a US soldier about atrocities he and other US soldiers commit on a daily basis in Iraq against innocent people:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4315

I am really worried by how short that article was. What was the point meant to be? I was in complete agreement with her. There should be religious studies lessons where every religion is considered equally, informing classes about the various beliefs and traditions of each.

What is frightening is I think I know why the article was so short. It is because she knows that most people in America would never accept it. Teaching children about the practices of witchcraft in class would seem to them to be encouraging their children to worship Satan. Let's face it, many of them would react similarly if Hinduism were taught in religious studies lessons too. Goodness knows what their reaction would be to the teaching of Secular Humanism in such lessons, as is currently happening in the UK.

Maybe they are worried that, like in the UK, many Christians will realise how much better able Wicca is to allow worshippers to express their spiritualty creatively? Perhaps they feel threatened by a religion with symbolism that isn't inherently sexist or guilt-inducing and which satisfies the urge of many people in the modern day to be more in touch with the natural world?

Anyway, I definitely think that a proper education on the various religions is needed in America. I couldn't believe it when I heard that Sikhs were being attacked after 9/11 simply because they wear turbans. How blooming ignorant can you get?

I started to learn about other religions in church. The class covered the basics with the manditory why they were not correct and how to show them the errors of their ways. However, what I did get out of the class was how very much alike they all were. Oh, the class was manditory in the church. Reading the KJV did also help with school since I was one of the few who understood the language and concepts in Hamlet...something that helped my GPA with my poor grammer and spelling. Based on all the sex and violence in the Bible I don't know how anyone could teach it in a public school anyway. Just think of all the other books, without nearly the same level of blatent in your face stuff of nightmares, that are restricted. What fundamentalist would want to compare this to other religious texts outside of the church and the rose colored glasses of a true believer.

not all religions impact modern Life? How very arrogant. If you are one member of a religion that is small. Modern life is impacted simply by your daily interactions. Are non-mainstream religions not to be taken in account, Zoroatarism is a religion with barely any adherents in America yet it affects american christians lives daily... Much of early christianity was affected by this religion as many early church fathers had been adherents to this religion or studied it and christian philosophy was colored by this persian religion....No religion has no effect in society to say so is to show to everyone a lack of historical and social prespective.

Dana Eilers,
Are you the Pagan lawyer that argued a case before the supreme court? If so, you did us all proud.

What do you think our chance is on winning the case against the VA? Seems to me that The Quest should go our way...that is if the First and 14th amendment stands.

How can the VA say they have the right to decide what religion is "frivolous"? It's not about our religion..it's about our symbol, do we hold it as meaningful to us? If our soldiers are good enough to wear dogtags into war with Wiccan of Pagan on them...they are good enough to lie under that symbol in death.

Sorry I just made my comment to the VA...it's plain discrimination and on June 29th we will win..
So MOte it be!!

Blessings..

"It might be worth doing the latter so that children will see from an early age that there are different ways of going about this which-God-is-the-true-God bit.

Don't hold your breath, though."

Well, Anonymous, it's a point in favor of better religious education if people would get the point across that 'Which God is the True God' is only really important to religions that think they a) have the answer to that, and b) this is a primary concern, and therefore c) They Must Proselytize.

I suspect you may be engaging in a bit of sarcasm, so no need to be too hard on you.

However, whehter you intended to convey the point by sarcasm or not, the point is not to teach religion in the sense of practising it, but rather to teach ABOUT religion.

It might be worth doing the latter so that children will see from an early age that there are different ways of going about this which-God-is-the-true-God bit.

Don't hold your breath, though.

That said, no, there's nothing essentially wrong with educating kids *about* religion. I do question if it can be *done* in this current climate in, society, or, indeed, if most of the involved Christians would really approve of a dispassionate treatment of Christianity's evolution and role in history.

This issue really only came *up* because certain Christian political organs have worked themselves up to feeling *embattled* about the challenges of a free society, particularly after another iteration of being led around by the nose by people who talk Christianity but don't deliver on *any* promises.

Under these kinds of circumstances, authoritarians do generally try to deflect blame and attention toward minorities who can't really defend themselves.

It's almost like we should all get together as a society and try and name some people *for their neutrality* to produce an electronic teaching tool on world religions, ...(I'd nominate Bill Moyers right off the bat, were he still 'among us') .... cut the teachers and a lot of the liabilities and local controversies and crusades right out. Everyone could see what everyone's getting, and, people not allowed by their families to see it would know exactly what they weren't being allowed to see for later reference, and... it'd be a start.

"Pagan,

For the most part, I agree with a number of issues you mentioned. As far as "labeling" goes, add every major TV media outlet (i.e., NBC, CBS, ABC), Newspaper outlet (i.e., Washington Compost, NY Times), Magazine (i.e., Newsweek), and public university/college and you'll have a glimpse of how much "labeling" Christians endure everyday."

I think what's mostly 'endured' is a persecution complex that leads to some pretty fascist moves in public life: claiming that their religion makes them the ultimate morally-superior majority on one hand, then squalling about being a 'persecuted minority' whenever they can't impose their ways on others or get called on being *wrong.* :)

Pagans are always being blamed for 9/11 one minute, then told we're not 'big' enough to merit our war dead having their faith recognized on their gravestones like everyone else. It's "Pagans and seculars ruined Christmas by taking the 'Christ' out of it, boycott stores! and, "Pagans and seculars are to blame for the same stores not making their employees bless our plastic purchases with a 'Merry Christmas!" the next.

Heck, they're still 'blaming' us for Harry Potter (written by a Christian) *not condemning ourselves enough for being things we aren't.*

Let's face it. The people who want Bible study in public schools know darn well that what they want is free rein to proselytize to a captive audience.

Gods know they raise enough of an uproar when the kids 'trick or treat' or dress as a Wizard of Oz character.

Don't even tell me about labels.

If you feel that 'Christians' as a political lobby are being misportrayed by anyone who doesn't fan your fears, then join those who speak up and represent better. :)

CA Wiccan

There are many Christians that practice doing unto others and rendering unto Ceasar (for the latter, if nary a Christian did not render unto Ceasar, then we would have one huge group in this country bound in chains after an IRS visit). The church is merely a congregation of believers who, at times by some, are percieved to be 'yellow pencils' The church is a place to worship and to teach. Just as in a university or any school for that matter, those who attend may have different understanding than the teacher. Basically, all are trying to learn a better way to live. Belief in God has been around for thousands of years and has not gone away. The fact is, it never will..and for a reason.

The old and new testaments are a question to many with regard to what you state. The thing to always remember about God is that, along with the fact that He can take life, we must remember that He can also give life back. The times of Noah as well as afterward in certain civilizations were some of the most wicked and wretched in the history of mankind. All of those who died in the flood will have a chance (in the third resurrection) to know about God and learn a way of life that will bring abundance and happiness.
God did the things he did for His purpose, not mans. Though mankind rejected God, overall, at Eden, still He has the perogative to step in and do what He wishes. God cannot be blamed for the errors of mankind...we do what we think is right and we all know this. Still, humans question Gods authority. Many of those question authority altogether. There were ordinances in the old testament that those who believed followed. (such as sacrificing a lamb for their sins). Today, that has been superceded by Christ sacrifice, and today we take the wine and unleavened bread at Passover as the new symbols, in remembrance of His sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins. And by the way, tho they are few, there are Christians who keep the Passover the way Jesus Christ instructed. He didnt instruct his followers to color eggs and eat chocolate bunnies. There are guidlines in the bible to go by, but sadly much of Christianity does not recognize this. This is why the book of Revelation states that satan has deceived the whole world. There really is a true way to be a Christian. Though, humanly, we will never be perfect, it is still a lifelong journey that must be kept in focus and in truth.

"kin man" should read "kind man"

Pablo,

I would not classify myself as a non-believer - I have beliefs - they just don't mirror yours.

You are Christian; I used to be Christian, am now pagan. I believe your Ieshua was a compassionate teacher, and a kin man. I do not believe that it was necessary for him to be tortured to death in order to save me, as I see nothing from which I need to be saved.

Robert Bub,

R'Amen, brother!

Is there going to be a mandatory class about the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

That Monty is on to something.

Sir Bedevere: What makes you think she's a witch?
Peasant: Well, she turned me into a newt!
Sir Bedevere: A newt?
Peasant: [meekly after a long pause] ... I got better.
Crowd: [shouts] Burn her anyway!

First of all, I am a "reformed Catholic". Catholic schools for the first 12 years, in NY. I would like to say that when I was in high school in Brooklyn, the sisters brought in pastors and reps from other religions in an attempt to show us similarities and differences, to foster conversation and understanding. My Catholic mother was aghast.

For children FORCED to study to the Bible, it isn't necessarily a bad thing. (The "bad" comes in when you are FORCED to follow or bend knee to beliefs that aren't yours.) I can recite whole sections of the Bible. Really throws the missionaries who knock on my door for a loop. A witch who knows the Bible as well or better than they do. And I have the perfect question that stumps them every time. In the Old Testament, you have a god who believes in eye-for-an-eye, drown the world because it isn't turning out the way he thought it should, turning people into pillars of salt for indulging the human curiosity he gave them. In the New Testament, you have a god who is portrayed as a loving father and wants nothing more than to welcome you into his warm embrace. Am I the only one who sees a problem here? Which is it? You have here either two very different gods or one with a hell of a split personality.

Personally, I happen to believe that Jesus was an amazing person. His teachings would lead to an ideal society. I have yet to experience a christian church that embraces them fully. Turning the other cheek, rendering unto Caesar, do unto others...show me where these ideals are practiced and I'll show up for service. I have found these things ONLY rarely, and then amongst pagans.

I think that in a world and a system free of religion(s) which dominate, teaching *about religion* in school would be a great idea.

But in the end, someone on some level (whether it's state or school board) is still going to be deciding what religions are going to be taught, or even what is counted as a religion.

I went to Catholic school, and we once had a unit about other religions. In it, a firm distinction was made between monotheistic and polytheistic religions. I can't remember what was said at the time, but I do remember at the end feeling like those who were polytheistic were "the other" and as Catholics, we were correct in being a part of the mono-theistic group.

So if an unbias curriculum could be created, perhaps for upper year high school students, in which they were provided a non-judgemental environment to learn about different kinds of religions, I would be all for it.

However, I'm cynical, in that I don't think all public schools are part of a system where a safe objective environment could be offered.

Rafael stated:

>>Jesus was, more or less, a hippie

Expound, please.

I read an article in a now-defunct Pagan magazine about 10 years ago that was titled "Children, Get Out Your Chickens...". It was a spoof of what would happen if the U.S. allowed all religions to be taught in schools, including Voudou/Santeria. The joke was that the teacher would lead the children in sacrificing chickens, etc. Too bad it's not on the web somewhere (I looked). It was a hoot!

If religion is taught in schools, it should be in a cultural context, not endorsing one or the other. How can you teach the history of Ancient Greece, Rome, or Egypt without discussing their Gods? How can you teach about the Middle East without discussing Islam? Etc.

Pagan,

For the most part, I agree with a number of issues you mentioned. As far as "labeling" goes, add every major TV media outlet (i.e., NBC, CBS, ABC), Newspaper outlet (i.e., Washington Compost, NY Times), Magazine (i.e., Newsweek), and public university/college and you'll have a glimpse of how much "labeling" Christians endure everyday.

Divolish informed us:
"No. Wiccan is stupid. You cannot design it on a stupid hippie idea."

Jesus was, more or less, a hippie. Is that the hippie path you follow?

Someone brought up the fact that the Bible has a long and interesting history...perhaps a collegiate course on the evolution of the Bible? I would have registered for that one.

One of the great difficulties with this is that evangelical Christians have a great deal of difficulty not flipping out when even a college level course appears that teaches about Paganism, (they scream: "They're teaching *witchcraft!*")

I do think that teaching Christianity even as history is a difficult prospect in public schools because believers have a great deal of difficulty remaining neutral on the subject. I went to a Catholic school with required religion classes, and they did cover world religions, but usually in a context of 'Why everyone else is wrong,' and , frankly, most of the information wasn't even good.

Treating Paganism in any kind of objective context is likewise problematic, as it seems to be an article of many Christians' dogma that Paganism isn't and wasn't a 'real' religion, but rather some kind of enemy.

Perhaps because of these teachings, there's always someone who treats any mention of Pagans that's non-condemnatory to be an attack on *their* religion. Frankly, I say 'tough cookies, you're responsible for your own beliefs about other people, and if it's 'false witness,' well, you've got something to work out among yourselves before taking it to public institutions.'

While a 'world religions' course, with an agreed-upon-non-preachy syllabus would probably serve society well, particularly since one thing the churches don't teach on the subject is anything approaching neutrality on *other* people, there are practical problems with it.

This is something that the Parliament of World Religions organization could possibly help with, but I wonder if it's a practical goal. Better than having the school system have 'Bible study as literature' or some other whitewash of sending the message 'Our beliefs are 'important,' as opposed to those we exclude.'

Considering that it's supposed to be one of the goals of the public school system to educate the populace for civil society, though, teaching about the actual beliefs of some of the neighbors, rather than letting the churches and Fox News label us, well, that could be nice.

So, basically, I'm all for a world religions course, not state sponsored Bible study. But a practical way would have to be found.

What percentage of today's international, politicial, and social issues are grounded in religion? If you send students into the world without a basic understanding of the world's religions, how well rounded can you expect them to be? How could they be expected to vote intelligently? How could they even watch the news and comprehend the leading stories? How will they know not to react with fear when a Buddhist moves in next door? Functioning in our world doesn't require religion, but it most certainly does require an understanding of religion.

If we're going to jump on parents and school boards for pushing Bible courses into the educational system, shouldn't we be just as outraged about condom videos and videos of transgender/gay families?

More to the topic, as I have stated in other posts, I would welcome a course teaching ABOUT religion. I just don't see how you can make it happen in such a short period of time. Maybe we could reduce the number of religions covered to those which had the greatest influence on U.S./World history?

Speaking of U.S. history, Starhawk seems to forget that the "dissidents" seeking religious freedom established religion-based states as soon as they got here. The Mayflower passengers setup a structure of democracy, but there is no mistaking that the community was run from a Protestant perspective. And this applies to the original colonies as well. New Hampshire (Roger Williams), Maryland (entirely Catholic), etc., etc. Pennsylvania was the first to publicly state it was accepting ALL religious faiths - something unheard of at the time. Why do you think Philadelphia is called the city of brotherly love?

Mary Malone, you may find Buddhism interesting, Zen in particular. Search for the eight fold path and consider it.

Don't misplace the failure on the church or on priests. It belongs squarely on the shoulders of a broken and nonsensical doctrine (Christianity).

It is your husband that should envy you.

Is there any "religion" or group in this area that doesn't preach a God - but accepts Christ, etc. as good men - and that its one tenet is "being good to one's neighbor." Not necessary Pantheism - but something that is calm, not telling you what to do or not to do, but just accepting that being good to one's neighbor (man or animal) is the actual "religion." I live in Potomac Falls VA; have found that my 70 years of Catholic schools and training have failed me completely (perhaps the Church, perhaps the priests I have been exposed to - and I accept they are ony human - but when one asks a priest to talk to them when husband is very ill and is told he is busy - then one finally gives up) - I am looking for a group in the Potomac Falls, VA area that just "preaches" being as good as you can to others, maybe meditation, and just accepts you and is open to talking with you. I envy deeply my husband who has true faith and goes to Mass every morning - and wonder why I am not given that. Any ideas.

Mary

While we are at it, let's teach a class on Pagan civil rights. I am a licensed attorney in three states and practiced law for nearly 20 years. I am a Witch and a modern Goddess worshiping woman. I wrote a book on this very topic entitled PAGANS AND THE LAW: UNDERSTAND YOUR RIGHTS. If you teach one religion in school, then you must teach them all, from Apache to Zulu, or be in violation of the Establishment Clause of the Constitution.

Attorney Dana D. Eilers
Author: PAGANS AND THE LAW: UNDERSTAND YOUR RIGHTS; THE PRACTICAL PAGAN: COMMONSENSE GUIDELINES FOR MODERN PRACTITIONERS

Corbie,

I think you're probably wiser than all the rest of us who post here. Along with your fellow students who voted with their feet to walk out of the Bible History classroom.

Regards.

I suspect that Corbie is right about the evangelistic pressure on schools coming mostly from parents and not from school boards or teachers.

Still, there have been cases where factions of school board members have attempted to push schools in the direction of evangelism, such as in Charles County in Maryland:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20713-2004Oct9.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/11/AR2006111100112.html

I apologize for the grammar in my last post. My brain is a little fried this morning.

I agree with Ralph. I think the key to the question presented to the panelists is that should teaching "about religion" (not religion itself) be mandatory. I think reaching "about religion" creates understand and tolerance. I firmly believe that a person does not have to water down their own beliefs to appreciate the beliefs of others. I believe most people agree theology should be kept in the private schools, but a 'World Religions' course would have merit.

Starhawk wondered: "Can I Design the Lesson Plan on Wiccan?"

Yes, you can. Somebody will have to and it might as well be you.

Well the idea isn't to teach religion, it is to teach ABOUT religion, which you would know if you had read the question correctly. Mis-reading the question is the source of many careless errors on tests. I learned that in public school.

Anyway, it would make very good sense to teach about the world's great religions and the world's actual history. People who want to learn about Wicca can take the online course. And Starhawk is free to design the lesson plan for that effort because this is America.

Divolish wrote:

"No. Wiccan is stupid. You cannot design it on a stupid hippie idea."

That's what the Roman's said about Christianity 2000 years ago. Maybe you'd rather have a wiccan teach the christianity course, or a jew the islam course, a muslim the course on hinduism, etc? Face it, no matter how you try to teach religion there will always be bias in the teaching either for or against the religion. That is why teaching ABOUT religion should be done in the secondary school level or higher and NEVER imposed as a requirement.

Personally I don't have a problem with teaching religion in public schools. I can see priests and pastors teaching christianity courses, rabbis judaism courses, imams Islam courses, wiccans Wiccan courses. I just do not want to see it taught in any required classes and not below the 11th grade where minds are easily swayed by thoughts of paradise, 72 virgins, nirvana, etc. It would be an easy A for some, but I think many students might find they know little about their religion and many may come out of such a class more dismayed than beholden to the religion. I have found that those who study their religions tend to drop them because most religions make little sense, like christianity being a monotheistic religion when it requires belief in God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, saints, angels, the Devil, dark angels, not to mention all the departed souls in heaven. Compare it to the Roman or Greek gods and its like looking into a mirror.

Divolish:
Looked at from a purely objective, provable pov, all religions, including my own, are equally stupid. You can't prove your beliefs any more than I can prove mine - that's why it's called faith. That's why most folks call any religious belief other than their own superstition.

Of course you can't teach history or literature without mentioning the cultural influences, including religion, that shape it.

That is not what Starhawk is suggesting. Nor does teaching these things and talking about the history of religion in context of world or artistic events violate church and state.

The problem comes in when you teach a class *only* about one religion as the central theme. Also, the class is being taught in, I believe, lower than university level in *public* schools, where kids may not have the option to take it as an elective.

I sure don't remember being able to choose in elementary school. Even if it is a Junior High or Highschool level course, choice is only as wide as the other options available.

Divolish,

Ok, Wicca is stupid?
Do you know anything about it except from what you have been told, also by people who know nothing?

Then should public schools stop teaching history because they cannot possibly cover ever culture that has ever existed? Or forgien langauge because they cannot all be offered? Or English because writers' ideas may conflict with people's beliefs?

If you were to remove all controversy from education all would have left is ... math.
Now who really wants that?

I like the IDEA of (*elective*) classes on religion, but logistically it's all but impossible to teach about every religion in a year long class, let alone a semester one. Perhaps an elective class per religion, but even then, you'd need a lot of teachers and the time and room for the classes. I don't think it would work any way you tried it. I agree with Starhawk that religion should be taught at home and in your place of worship, and schools should be secular. Even though, as a Pagan, I almost wish all those closed-minded people had to learn about what my religion REALLY is...

Only if I get to write the section on Ba'al worship.

unfortunately we as a whole society don't seem to be understanding of anything "outside the box" this includes religion.personally i think it should be a generalized subject.a basic overview of the all so that the students can make an EDUCATED decision when the time comes to make that decision.

No. Wiccan is stupid. You cannot design it on a stupid hippie idea.

Many public schools, including my own, offer "Bible History" courses. Usually these classes are elective, meaning you don't have to take them, and are included in the cirriculum because of pressure from a group of PARENTS, not because a school board member has a fundamentalist agenda to push.

School officials are human. The power that they are given can be used for good or ill, and there are certainly those who do try to enforce their beliefs on teachers and students alike. However, most of them, just like most of us, are simply trying to do their jobs. Unfortunately, their job security lies in the hands of the people whose children they are educating, and if you don't believe one stupid parent can have an adverse effect on an entire school system, Google-search for Linda Mallory (yes, she's an obvious crackpot, but she's noisy.)

Some hard-line Christian parents home-school their children. Some don't. They form a small but very vocal minority, especially in the South (Georgia, Florida, my own Texas, etc) and the temptation to cave in to their demands can be very strong. To see a school's decision to institute Bible classes as evidence of some Grand Evangelist School Board Conspiracy is a bit much, in my opinion. As long as such classes remain elective, I have no problem with them. Let them pacify the people they were meant to pacify, while the majority of the students take Multimedia or Spanish II or Theater Arts instead.

For they will-- that Bible History course in my school had five members this year. We students aren't stupid.

I agree with Starhawk, religion should be kept at home. Offering a course on the bible that is an elective is acceptable, as long as it is possible for alternative religious studies be allowed if they are requested by the students. Schools shouldn't be about religion, they should be about education.

Well... I agree with Starthark to a point. I do not have a problem with Religious Studies (the secular study of religious beliefs) being taught in schools, but any specific theology I would have issue for the reasons Starhark stated.

raven owl:
"if you just teach the actual verifiable history in the book.. it would take about a week to teach it"...you could say this about the sacred texts of any religion if you come into it with a closed mind...statements like this are why it would be a good idea for more university students to study religion

you said yourself: 'it was written but hundreds of authors...its full of contradictions...its been changing for 1400 years'

there is obviously a complex history behind the bible's developement...studing this history takes more than a week i assure you

and i don't think anyone's talking about an exclusively christian cirriculum here...so if it takes 1 week perreligion you can fit in about 14 religions in a semester...sounds good to me

I will say this... if a Xtain course is mandated.. then the school system will go broke so quickly that it will leave heads spinning.. teaching the Bible as literature.. is possible only in a College / University setting.. for one simple fact. The students are mature enough to actually look into the matter objectively... there is no way a course like that would be objective.. Good book.. please... the book itself is horridly written.. it has blood and violence.. its full of contradictions.. and the reason why is simple.. people have changed its original meaning.. and keep in mind its been changing for 1400 years now.. it was written but hundreds of authors.. and it brings up ... guess what.. PAGAN ideals.. it uses Pagan ideals as their own.. which is called plaguarism.. Good book .. yeah sure.. if you cut out all the plaguarism.. sure its good.. well not even then.. all the historical accounts are both biased and in a lot of circumstances simply didnt happen the way it was written.. So if you just teach the actual verifiable history in the book.. it would take about a week to teach it.. but then why would anyone bother, the political reasons to use it would be neutered.. it would push people away from Xtainity.. in its present form.. simple as that..

Yes, David, but the schools in Georgia are going to teach only the OT and the NT. Most of the kids will already have had their fill of them in church and at home. Nothing in GA to expand their horizons.

Everyone here seems to be having a hard time understanding the differences between teaching religion, and teaching ABOUT religion.

Going to church/synagogue/sacred grove is a fine way to learn about your own creed, but people's ignorance about *their* religions is not the (main) problem here. It is ignorance about the values and narratives running the lives of the rest of the world outside of our little groups that this is meant to address.

Yes, having specifically a mandatory bible class would be unconstitutional. HOWEVER, how can we possibly leave all of religion out of history? It needs to be brought up in the proper context for the purposes of a complete education. Again, as people on these posts have been saying, there is a difference between religious instruction and teaching ABOUT religion. I mean what is a teacher supposed to do if a student asks a legitimate question about how religion influenced a particular event? "Sorry, I can't talk about that." Also, how are we to even teach the reason WHY we have seperation of church and state without bringing up religion??

The problem I have with teaching religion in schools is the fact that they want to make these courses mandatory. If they want to have a Bible class offered, but make it an elective that only people who WANT to take it can, then I have no problem whatsoever. Putting it on the required curriculum is just plain illegal.

It's true, in the interst of time, not all religions would get equal treatment. But let's be honest, not all religions have had equal impact(good or bad) on history and modern culture. It would be diffucult to decide objectively what shoud be taught, but that is true of any aspect of a history cirriculum. I understand your point in the way in wich you say you would like to see Wicca taught, however, I think public shcools are for the most part more objective than you assume. I don't know about dancing around the fire, but I don't see why the ideas Wicca wouldn't be mentioned in a fair treatment of social studies as an influence in our society.

While we're all thinking correctly and idealistically, let's keep in mind that the State of Georgia is instituting a school course in the Old and New Testaments.

Nothing else. No comparative religion. Just the basic oatmeal of the born-again fundamentalists. And, no doubt, no questions need be asked in class. Just listen, students.

While we're all thinking correctly and idealistically, let's keep in mind that the State of Georgia is instituting a school course in the Old and New Testaments.

Nothing else. No comparative religion. Just the basic oatmeal of the born-again fundamentalists. And, no doubt, no questions need be asked in class. Just listen, students.

some schools are already teaching the "bible" using the form of literature i know for a fact the high school in joplin, mo. uses it my daughter was sent home with the assignment and refused to do it . Needless to say the vice principle and i didn't see eye to eye and she failed his class.He told me it was on the cirriclum and acceptable . fair is fair just as they don't teach native american history they should keep religion out of schools

She is right. Certain groups would love to make this a 'Christian' nation with only one religion and they would disrespect other faiths and there are plenty. If Christian courses are allowed in school then by the same token Pagan classes should be taught. We could all become Unitarian Universalists as I where we teach the children about all faiths but this is voluntary on their part. Children would hate the part of it being mandatory. What about the Atheists? They are entitled to their beliefs. Some groups would have special rights for their group only like the Christians and trample upon other beliefs.
Keep the good columns Starhawk!
Blessed Be!

Tantric yoga - now THERE's a religion course I would have signed up fo in high school!