Discrimination Against Pagans

I'm truly impressed with all the religious intolerance in USA. I don't hate christians, but religious fanatics shouldn't be allowed to live. Personaly, I'm agnostic, but I have more affinities with pagan and dharmic religions that abrahamic ones

Thank you Starhawk and Terra,

I have come across prejudice for mentioning abuse done to me by catholic priests,and for saying to a counselor that I felt proud too see women at a Lilith event sponsoring breast cancer research.This was at a womens shelter.The 1st incidence happened after going to this event and then later while discussing with the counselor that was assigned to me, other matters regarding me staying there.I mentioned what a wonderful day I had experienced at this event.She looked at me strangely and said she was upset because she had gone also with her daughter.She said she was terribly insulted that they did not list it as a Lesbian event.I did not see it as a Lesbian event only.I told her that I felt comfortable there and enjoyed the music very much.She looked at me very disappointingly and said she wouldn't have gone there if she had known. She made it obvious that she was refering to her Christian beliefs. I told her that I felt women and men that are not heterosexual have the capacity to be just as spiritual and creative with whatever spiritual path, religon or non-religon that they chooce to take part in.She was very cold to me after that.
They exited me for not doing 3 chores after doing my dailey 2 chores and extra 1 hr worth of chores weekly.They wanted me to sign a behavioral contract for missing 3 chores in a period 5-6 months, when I had been doing 1 hrs worth of extra chores every week. I questioned this and asked why were they making me sign a behavioral contract. She said we can apply the rules any way we chooce.I missed signing the behavioral contract because I was working and could not get there on time.I tried to reschedule but they chooce to exit me anyways.When she called me into her office and told me I was shocked,as I had met every requirement requested of me while staying there except for missing 3 chores,regardless of the extra 1hr worth of chores done every week.I asked to see my chart.She was very surprised that I requested that and had little choice but to show me since it was laying open in front of me on her desk.In the chart was the reporting of me missing 3 chores and missing the signing of the behavioral contract and a letter.It was from a Catholic organization, written by the woman who was in charge of volunteer services.While staying at this shelter I had quietly,nonthreateningly and without anger told this woman 2 sentences.I had asked her what organization was she with and she said the Holy Cross church. I told her in a quiet voice that I had been raped by catholic priests that were from a church called holy cross.She coldly (fearfully) looked at me and said that they had only been there for 7 years.I explained to her that this happened to me in another state when I was a child.She did not respond at all so I took it that she didn't want to continue the conservation so I walked away.My intention was some kind of reassurance that they were doing everything they could to stop this terrible atrocitiy that is still being done to children.To see some kind of compassion for me and anger at the allowing of these priests to remain priests.Instead in her letter she wrote that I had been extremely abusive and that they would not be offering there services there while I remained there at the shelter.What these good catholic and christian women did was basically throw me out unto the streets to be homeless because I was brave enough to say something. Her letter was a lie.I should have asked for a copy of it but I was so upset I just started crying,Later I went back and asked for them to give me my records, they said I had to make an appointment,then I was told in a phone conversation that they would mail them to me.They never did.At another womens shelter they asked my religous orientation,I told them that I worshipped the Goddess Religion.They told me that in order to stay there I would have to accept christ.I would have to take there christ classes.I asked if I could ask questions while taking the classes and they looked at me and said no.I told them I could not say I was christian and disregard my own beliefs.One of the women who was the director of this shelter had also gone through sexual abuse as a child.It did not bother her to turn me away.While I was at the one shelter that I was thrown out of,I was working as a medical assistant.I had to change work spaces with another employee.On the computer was a bible quote.I took it off and handed it to her. I was not rude or hostile.She wouldn't take it.She said no you leave it on yours.I told her I did not want it.She looked at me as if I was some kind of terrible person for not wanting her bible quote on the computer in my workspace.I told her I was not a Christian.Everyone there saw her hostile actions towards me.I was called into the managers office .This employee had complained that I had been prejudice towards her.I told exactly what had happened.The manager wanted me to say more.I just looked at her and said I was not acting in a prejudice way and would not back down and admit that I had contributed to the situation.I lasted there another 3 momths before leaving.If you keep your mouth shut and don't say anything they don't really bother you in such overt prejudicial actions but if you chooce to, be prepared.I understand how it feels to be hurt so terribly from violence and cruelty done by people that hold the book they call the bible in their hands and not feel you have any protection or justice.My heart goes out to any person who has suffered from this type of viciosness and hypocrisy.A lot of their so-called leaders and people in thier institutions really belong in jail.

zkngw slpiteb nvzjfig uqiwy iytsc ahjti lmau

In the UK, I get to vote as a British citizen and over 18. What is the criteria for voting in the USA? Is the fiasco in Florida a warning sign? Is the process generally trustworthy?

If you put a bowl of food down, the cats tend to go in the same direction, and large cats (eg lions) tend to cooperate when hunting. (They haven't shared the housekeeping fairly, gender-wise, yet though...)

Use their game and vote them out of office, or present your own candidate. You could also deal with Kyoto, Alternative Energy and all the other issues at the same time. (Broadening the agenda may broaden the support, as well.) We have the 'grey vote' in the UK, with the proportion of retired, who tend to be quite vocal (lobbying, and so on), and they have been pretty successful.

Those who are intending to write future 'DIY' books, might wish to include StarHawk's homepage, additional to any other relevant websites (eg WashingtonPost's). The books are popular and they are selling, and they may help to herd the cats...

How about a more reassuring anecdote?

I was sat on a bench near some trees, having a quiet smoke, with rare sunshine, and I was trying to enjoy the sound of the birds twittering away. An Evangelical female preacher was standing nearby, giving me a headache with the public sermon, and drawing mixed responses from passersby. (I had no visible symbols, and was not the target. It was just a general sermon.) Shortly afterwards, a plain-clothes police officer showed up, consulted HQ and then warned the Preacher to move on. Which was obeyed. Such sermons are seen as a public nuisance. So, even the smallest person can make changes, when prodding buttock. Someone had made a complaint. (They are still allowed to do their song-and-dance routine in their churches, behind closed-doors, which I consider more dangerous than when they are visible. However, other groups that incite violence have been secretly filmed doing so.)

And, gun-crime in this country is getting considerably more serious. We don't have the Amendment to bear arms, and the Govt is trying to reduce the number of weapons in circulation.

Blessed Be

You know it really irks me about how much we, pagans & wiccans, are considered non-traditional. Our religion has been around longer than any other religion out there. Alot of religions have stemed off of Pagan beliefs. Before the insiquition, the christians took the pentacle and used it as a symbol for the 5 wonds of Jesus. They have took our winter solstice and turned it into a christian holiday called Christmas. Alot of the holiday's there are is just a Pagan/Wiccan holiday wrapped in a christian bow. I know I get tired of being afraid to be open about my religion. I can't talk about it at work because I am not suppose to talk about religion or government. But all the time I hear them talking about church activities and so forth. Its not right. We are not non-traditional. We have been here longer than any other religion. We are not "satan worshipers." We don't believe in satan so how can we worship something we don't believe in. And what about seperation of church and state. In the pledge of allegiance it says "One nation under God." Well what about all the other Gods & Goddesses. And at almost any kind of public activty they have prayers to the christian god. At my schools graduation they had a prayer to the christian god. They should stop doing those things and start listening to what our country is suppose to be about. Ok enough of my ranting. But this is what I believe. Its not right that we have to be in the closet with our beliefs when any christian can be open about theirs without the fear of getting fired, threatened, or discriminated. Isn't there something we can do about that?

Deseree

Wicca is a federally recognized religion. If you are--

a. fired from your job;
b. not allowed to place pentagrams on a grave;
c. not allowed your right to worship in prison--

then you have the right to file a discrimination lawsuit.

After reading Starhawk's article and many of the other posts concerning persecution of Pagans, I can't help but think how privileged I am to live in a part of NY State that see precious little discrimination. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but I have never been discriminated against. The closest came when a year and a half ago I had to go into the hospital. Because it was a Catholic hospital, I was asked my religion. When I said I was Wiccan, the gal said, "Oh, so you don't have any religion." I said, "Yes I do. I'm Wiccan." She looked affronted at my assertion, but she didn't press. As to what she actually wrote down on my papers, I have no idea without looking at the records.

I can sympathize with those who have been persecuted. And I am working hard in my own little way to keep the persecution from continuing. I've been out as a Pagan for many years. I had a little "New Age" store for 6 years until some personal tragedies forced me to close up shop. I have taught many different types of seekers, including Mormon missionaries and JW's, about Paganism, what it is and, more importantly, what it isn't. I'm even teaching my brother, a Born-Again, though those lessons are going very slowly. I would have liked to have taught his 6 daughters before they became indoctrinated, but I never got the chance. But there's still time to reverse some of what they've been taught. The oldest girls will be 18 soon and they love their Auntie Cela.

I really like the idea of a Peaceful Pagan Gathering on the Mall in Washington, DC. If only half the estimated Pagans in this country go to such an event It will go a long way to prove that Pagans are a very real force in this country. Who knows, it might even be like when Rev Martin Luther King, Jr spoke at the Lincoln Memorial. Maybe more Pagans will step out of the "broom closet", and just maybe Shrub will get the idea that Wicca and Paganism really is a religion. Though something like that would be a logistical nightmare. But I do wonder...

Just a thought.

I see no confusion between the Wiccan pentacle and the Medal of Honor.

No Liberty Head in the Wiccan Pentacle.
Point UP in the Wiccan Pentacle, down on the MoH.
Circle around Wiccan Pentacle, not on MoH.

Anyone who cannot tell the difference needs some serious eye care, some history lessons, and maybe a brain. Even a Kindergartener could tell the difference between a point up circled star and a point down uncircled star with a head layered on.

I think that that argument would be as bogus as the rest if the VA tried to use it.

First off, I know that discrimination against Pagans is real, substantial, and hurtful, and yet.

I am one of the organizers of the Samhain Drumming Circle at the Jefferson Memorial in Washington, DC, which has been going on under the watchful eye of the National Park Service for more than 10 years.

I live in Laurel, MD, which as a hot bed of absolutely conservative rednecks, nevertheless has a very good Pagan bookstore (Crystal Fox) and the park police have no problem with Wiccans celebrating the holidays along the river park (they clean up after themselves, we never have to worry about it - say the police.)

I am surrounded by a large Hispanic population who recognize a Brujo when they see one, and actually seek us out for counseling.

We just be here.

On the note of the Pentacle and public service, I have taken a look at American iconography. Everywhere in Washington DC, there are pentagrams and pentacles. The national symbolism of the United States is of stars. Sherrifs wear stars, generals wear stars.

The pentacle (reversed, with a liberty head in the center) is the Army Medal of Honor. I think, that perhaps, though they won't admit it, that what we have is not necessarily religious discrimination, but symbolic confusion. The Armed Services already have a pentacle in use, as a medal of honor. If a soldier were to have that on his or her tombstone, could one tell without looking him up whether it was a Medal of Honor or a Wiccan soldier? The Army Medal of Honor was created in the early 1800s, long before the pentacle became publicly associated with modern-day Witchcraft in public parlance. By heraldic rules laid down in 1300, there have to be three points of difference on a symbol, and we have one, a liberty head, to show a difference, without permission of the first legal party, in this case the United States government. The Armed Forces may truly be guilty of religous discrimination, but legally they may have every precedence in the use of a symbol already displayed in public iconography.

I'd rather us be prepared on a symbolic level to recognize an argument that has nothing to do with religion.

Here's an idea for Pagans who are threatened by Christians:

Bend over and pick a piece of lint off your sock, letting the pistol at your waist push its outline against your coat. Then give them your coldest eye and say, "You might want to pray over that."

Just spent an hour scrolling down and reading all comments on this site. I've hidden my true faith "under a bushel" or "in the closet" for years and years for fear of exactly all the things we've heard happening here. But reading these posts this morning has changed me, and I know what I have to do now. I'm taking my pentacle out of the drawer, placing it on my neck, and I'm never taking it off again. May the Goddess protect me.

I believe the Devine Mother is another way of referring to the Goddess or Pagen religion in our lives. And if we're interested in getting this tired ol' world back on track, perhaps it would be a good idea to honor Her who honors life.............not death and destruction.

Keep on with your tireless journey, Starhawk. You have so much wisdom to share!

Lep!
Yes...PSG..oh my home how I miss thee!
LOL
I will not be going often any more. My group used to meet once a year for a week some where. Like once it was in the Smoky Mountains, we rented a cabin for a week..once it was in a beach house on the Gulf(that blew awayin Katrina), Once it was in Skyline drive; in what turned out to be a haunted ski lodge...lol.. this next time it will be on Snowshoe mountain in W. Virginia. I had to decide what was more important to me..my dear Witchy family or PSG. We have some folks that can not do the camping, so it is my group. Money is finite and no one can have all things.

But I hold PSG, the drum circle and tea dance close to my heart! lol. I am an elder in Patrick McCollum's Wiccan Church...and will miss his teachings..I reccomend his Passing the Magick Class. And oh I will miss Spiral Rythym, morning meeting and Caffina's.

Do I know you by a different ID? how exciting. Will you be going to PSG this year? If so please send some extra good energies into the Mound for me. I will certainly miss the MidSummer Rite and the venders!

Blessed Be!

May the Lady cause flowers to bloom at your feet,

May the Lord hang rainbows above your head,

(and may the pollen leave you be.)

Happy Springtime to all!

Hey, welcome Spring, and blessed be, all.

:)

Terra Gazelle,
I THOUGHT your name sounded familiar. Now I know why. PSG.

Laurie;
First let me apologize for taking so long to rejoin this discussion. Yes, I was living in Norht Georgia at the time and the Police never found out who did it. I feel sorry for all of those that have been hurt, both by Christians and Pagans. I like to think that Pagans are more tolerant but I know that some of us have just had enough and are tired of turing the other cheek, as they are both bleeding.
I have been out of the broom closet for close to 10 years now and have met some of the most understanding Christians in that time. I have also been threatend and insulted and lost a couple of jobs because of it. I have been in more fights than I care to remember because someone took offense of my religion. Yet, I have not learned to keep my head down. I will always be out front about my religion, if one asks. I don't push my religion but I also don't hide it. I have shouldered the burden of being both activist and teacher, and because of that some of my stories about dicrimnation are not of the PG variety. Be Blessed.

Love, Light, and Peace to All.

BTW: For the full stories hit my email: mistrunner@hotmail

Victoria and all...
A Happy and Blessed Equinox..
Happy Spring!

Fia,

As a Wiccan I recognize that you have the right to practice what ever religion you choose. I respect that right...I do not have to like it at all. I do not understand it...How can a Christian also follow a religion who at core is pre Christain? How can you believe in the one son of God which is contrary to the many Gods of Nature? How can you follow a faith that says you can have no other gods before you...yet follow a religion with many gods? How can you belong to a religion that says "suffer a Witch not to live," yet be that Witch? How can you belong to a religion that preaches against us and with torture and death terrorized us, and yet stand under the moon on full moon nights and celebrate the Lady and your connection to Her?

I resent the fact that though so many of us pay for our religion with silence and loneliness...with fear and pain, there are those who will read a book and decide that it sounds like fun...and all of a sudden will call themself a Witch, without the understanding of the deep knowledge that it takes.

Like I said, you have every right to believe as you wish...but like I told someone not that long ago, there comes a time that as you gain knowledge of self and your beliefs, you will face the crossroads and you will have to decide.

We all have had dark nights of doubt, it is part of growth, and you will come face to face with yourself. A connection to God/s is not something to play with..it has nothing to do with what you call yourself..it is who are you and what calls to your soul.

Blessings on your journey,
terra

Starhawk,
Thank you for bringing this Pagan plight into view of so many people. As an active duty military member, I can assure everyone, active and cruel religious discrimination still exists among people in uniform, even though "the military" recognizes the right to the religion of its members. Unfortunately, it's taking longer for some servicemembers to get the word... we're here, we're real and we are not a threat to your religious beliefs!

AzureLunatic Said:

"With that kind of reputation, it's natural for a pagan without many contacts in the Christian community to brace themselves for some kind of impact whenever they hear someone say "I'm Christian." Often enough, it is justified; too many times, that kind of defensive reaction also leads to heightened misunderstandings and an escalation of tensions."
-------------------------------------------------
I think one of the problems, is that when I come out of the broom closet to a Christian, I don't *really* know what's coming.

I know that there are Christians that are understanding. I was raised Christian, and I converted to Witchcraft. My entire family knows my beliefs, and while they don't understand them, they accept them. But I don't *know* which Christians are going to discriminate against me, try to convert me (back), mumble rude things under their breath, make my home and work life difficult, get me fired, or worse. So when I'm defensive, it's more like erring on the side of caution.

I used to work in a place where *everyone* was Christian, and professed it proudly. Even the union reps. Sure, there were probably some Christians there who were understanding, and I could tell which ones were more moderate than others. But I still couldn't risk telling anyone, for the fear that someone who wasn't moderate found out.

I realize some people have a hard time saying that they're Christian, but as a former Christian, I can promise you it's not the same as telling someone that you're a witch. Sometimes I stick with the general "pagan" term - but that's still harder than someone saying that they're a Christian.

Fia:

I understand your points. It seems to me you feel that you haven't been accepted by many Wiccans, because you are a Christian Wiccan. Could you describe what you mean when you say "hateful"? for people who have been beaten, burglarized, and harrassed for their religion, I think they take that word very seriously.

I have a hard time envisioning how you combine a monotheistic and a polytheistic religion. would you be able to describe this? Christianity teaches that there is one god, and one son of god, Jesus Christ. When you say Wiccan, particularly when referring to British Traditional Wiccan (Gardnerian, Alexandrian, etc.) That's not just a vague philosophy - but rather a fairly concise set of practices and beliefs that I can easily see would contradict monotheism.

have a blessed vernal equinox folks

I'm sorry, Fia, you misconstrue what I said.

Wasn't even taking a theological position, just that it's not 'hate' for people who go through all this described above because they *don't* swear by this Jesus to not like it when someone comes along claiming to know more about Wicca in the name of 'Jesus' than Wiccans do...

Any more than it's going to be well-received by people who have a hard time being believed by the world that we *don't* worship Satan to have some Satanist come in and say, 'Some Wiccans do!'

I'm sorry, that's not "hate."

It's just "No."

I don't know if there's any tiny bit of hope in this, but I haven't been threatened with violence for being an atheist in quite a number of years, now. Things seem to be getting better for us.

If atheists can discuss their beliefs without fear, can the pagans be far behind? Here's hoping.

PaganPlace...
Generalized observations are part of the problem. Belittling a person for their personal beliefs is a hateful act, even when coming from an oppressed party. It turns the oppressed into the oppressor...unlike a person like Starhawk who has proven herself to be a truly enlightened and open minded person, devoid of generalized observations and respectful of the individual.
In Peace,
Fia

Mark Eaton,
I am not saying that Pagans here are being put in camps or shot at dawn...but neither are the Christians facing loss of jobs, children or homes because they are Christians.They can worship as often as they want, where they want and no one will interfer with them.

There is a Pagan Gathering in Ohio every year...a wonderful place that every Pagan should go to at least once, PSG. People traveling there can not put any thing on their vehicles like PSG or Bust...Pagans at Play...because it might have brought intruders. In 2004 we had folks flying over and then trying to sneak in with a cameraman. Now when was the last time Pagans were turned at the door of a Church and they flew over taking pictures of Christians in morning meeting?
What was funny, was we were sending off a group to attend the Parliment of World's Religions in Spain. That was the picture that the reporters flew over and got. The following year we said we would put some nice welcong messages on our tent tops.

Discrimination is makeing good people hide their religion for fear of being discriminated against. It is a form of terrorism. Terrorism can be 3000 people killed...and then the whole country afraid of makeing the wrong move just incase. It is one gay man being left to bleed to death on a fence and other gay men then fear being who they are.

Or a Pagan made to leave her home in fear of the harm that could come to her and her son. It's terrorism

This is not taking away the horror of what others are living through...but this , like Pagan said, is America. And all any of us want is our rights, civil and human rights.

The VA says that only those religions not frivolous can be acceptable for a headstone for a fallen soldier.Who says whether a religion is frivolous...the man that has been stalling the applications and changing the rules.

The head of the Faith Based Initative says that Pagans don't know how to be charitable...(laughter) they would not apply if they knew it was for others...(more laughter).

So should we set degrees on discrimination? How bad does it have to get before it is stopped? Should Darfur been stopped before now? Or should everyone there have a story or a nightmare to repeat? How about the Congo? How many dirty diamonds do people with money buy? How much blood was spilled by little kids? When will that be stopped? Why hasn't it been?

The powerless have no power. But even the powerless will reach a point where they make their own.

Oh, and just for the studio audience:

Q.E.D.

Q. E. Mother-lovin- D.

See it?

"P P: When worshipping would it be proper or legal to burn U.S. money at the ALTER if I really and truly thought that by doing so, I would in-turn recieve more money, fortune, luck and have fantacy's come true or if I rub beeds etc...? hey, I like the web site WIKIpedia! SHOLOM FOLKS!"

All very interesting, but, yes, defacing or destroying Federal currency is technically a Federal crime, and, umm... if 'being a Pagan' meant you got all kinds of money, I'd buy you a *day off,* sir, cause, that kind of desire you project on us really has nothing to do with the Goddess or anything like that.

It's just something else you don't want to look at.

Shalom.

You're gonna need it.

" Jacob Jozevz:

Pagon Place: If I was a pagan I would worship the OLD MIGHTY U.S. DOLLAR"

Why let not being Pagan stop you? Doesn't exactly stop anyone else. You could probably do worse than try to, and see where that altar really gets you.

What's distressing you here, sir, really? Is it us? Really?

What would you like?

Ok, though, Jacob, I have to give props for coining the term 'Freudiantly.' Lovely. :)

More: "You're being oppressed? But what about the poor Christians in China?"

What can you say to that, but, "I dunno. Eat your peas. Put the shotgun down. Let's see what we can do, already."

Yeesh.

For example, Fia:

"Note: not too long ago, I read somwwhere that in Greece there is a movement that wants recognition of Paganism and they are now ready to use force in order to get recognition. HOW ABOUT DISCRIMINATION OF THE "SECULAR" Minded?"

How bout it, there, Jacob, whatever you're wound up about.

What you're referrng to is an Orthodox-church government that threatened to "forcibly," (this in a European sense, as in, 'Don't do this') sense, say, 'Don't worship your Gods at the ancient temple.'

Hate to break it to you, but it already came down, and what happened was the cops said, 'Hey, don't do that,' and the Pagans said, 'Umm, sorry, we'll be done in a couple minutes. Remove us if you want the EU on your arse.'

"Forcibly secular?"

What you reading?

How about an Eastern Orthodox guy quoted way at the beginning of this thread? (this is about Wiccans in America, not classical Pagans in Greece who still live under threat of prosecution for talking about their Old Gods, but I still think it pertains:)

As quoted by Terra Gazelle:

"James Clement Taylor, a member of an Eastern Orthodox Church, has commented on the subject of persecution of Wiccans that "these people of Wicca have been terribly slandered by us. They have lost jobs, and homes, and places of business because we have assured others that they worship Satan, which they do not. We have persecuted them..."

Anyway, if thoughts Alexander the Great or any worries about 'secular' Pagan armies takin' over Athens are still keeping you up, be not afraid. We can probably figure this out for ya.

Blessed be. :)

With respect, Fia, if you really read a tenth of this, you wouldn't be calling Pagans 'hateful' cause they don't appreciate someone trying to take what they want out of Wicca (Open source religion, that's fine) ...and then turn around and drag this whole, 'Jesus loves you, don't oppress me by saying that's not in your world' trip in there.

These are people who have often been treated *real* badly under those words. Who have rare occasions to get away from those associations and programmings and are sick of this 'Jesus, Jesus everywhere' thing, and try and open up to Divinity.

Can't even turn on the TV without someone advertising Christian programming ... If a Pagan artist somehow could afford to advertise their work, there, someone would start a *bloody riot.*

It's not *hate,* Fia. *sigh, not if some of us still have anything to say about it, anyway.* It's anger at a boundary violation. Trying to have our own sacred space and having someone coming in punching certain buttons I hope have been well-described earlier in this thread.

And just a generalized observation: "Christian Wiccans" don't get the Wiccan part, and whine when anyone tries to explain it. It's not about the Jesus guy: I've got no problem classing him as 'someone else's demigod, like some respected ancestors'.'

What comes with the name has far more implications than that. And a Wiccan should know.

Period.

So many of these stories grieve me. A cradle Catholic, I am only able to identify as a Christian at this point in my journey due to folks like Matthew Fox, Marcus Borg and other thinking Christians...and also due to the blessing of a church that truly welcomes ALL people...including a few of us who follow Christ as Lord while also loving and serving a Lady. We have a church staff member who practices her own blend of Christianity/Wicca. I have been treated hatefully by Christians and Pagans alike for embracing elements of both paths. I have been told there is "no such thing" as this path I'm on...yet here I am.
For what it's worth, not all Christians think, act and believe alike. There are those among us who respect and appreciate our Pagan Sisters and Brothers.
Blessings to All!
Fia

OK, before we get into the whole deal about: "Well, you think this is bad, look at what ("you") *non-Christians* and Commies in China are doing to *Christians!* So we're the good guys, and you're not 'persecuted,' you're 'treading on the sacred definition of persecution."

This isn't Communist China. This is America.
If there's even a comparison being drawn, we have a problem.

Apples and oranges, in those terms.

When someone says, "Oh, shut up, technicality:"

""Prisons are restrictive about Pagan Clergy - but not because they are Pagan, but because they require visitors to have real ID's that match their stated names. "Sister Crystal Moonbeam" isn't getting in""

Hate to mention this, but 'Sister Mary Aloysius' wasn't born with that name, either. Of *course* Pagan 'churches' should be able to arrange proper ID. That's not what the discrimination there is about.

Yeah, there's some silly things. If there were enough Pagan clergy, no one would be under the misapprehension they *needed* an athame in the joint.

I'd be like. "OK. This.... Is the Mark I *upraised index finger.* The image of the athame has everything to do with what happens when you express power, and you probably wouldn't be *in* here, if you'd gotten that bit sooner. Now. Sacred space..."

That's not really the point. It's about some religions getting state supported programs and state-provided perks for bait, if not compulsion, , while Pagan prisoners are denied even clergy visits or books. I happen to know a few Nordic Pagan clergy who'd like to have a talk with some of these white-supremacist quasi-Pagan groups in there, for instance. 'What you in here for? Assault? So glad you found a couple the Old Gods. Now let's talk about Freyja."

Can't get in, can they?

What I propose, is a little cease-fire in this 'Spiritual War' some people seem to think they're desperately-engaged in against the likes of lil' ol' us.

All 'spiritual warfare' accomplishes is convincing the participants: "I 'shot' at them, now someone has to be the dehumanized enemy."

Well, and possibly teaches 'might would not only make *but define* right,' and a couple other toxic ideas.

Now, that's no kind of example for a 'God Of Love' to set, is it?

Sure doesn't look it, ....Emperor.

Whether you think Lady Liberty is an image of the Lady, a Neoclassical ideal, or a lump of decadent, idolatrous, croissant-eating pretentious French surrender-monkey sheet copper, there's common ground here we could be working on.

How bout we start there.

To the person who believes there is no religious persecution in the USA -

Try living day to day, never knowing if a firebomb is coming in your front window into the room where your children play.

Finding your tires slashed. Your lawn driven through and torn up. Your house windows broken. Spraypaint on your driveway. Repeatedly.

Try being beaten for your beliefs, and having law enforcement blow you off.

Try being raped and terrorized, since you're not really "human" anyway. And knowing the law will do nothing to help you. And living knowing it could come again any day.

Try dealing with being fired from a job, because "the customers" don't like that you're working there. Try have people turn you down for work, saying the position is filled, even though there's a sign in the window that says "hiring" and they start interviewing someone as you are on the way out the door.

Try finding food when you can't find work and the foodbanks are controlled by the churches.

Try visiting a friend who's been worked over by severl people and who is the one who's been hauled off to jail for 72 hours, had his head shaved, and then get him released. Of course, no charges are ever filed against him. But it'll have cost him a rib or two, and his job. And probably his apartment and car for the missed payments.

Try knowing you can never let your children out of your sight, for their own safety.

Try living knowing that someday your kid will come home with black eyes and a bloody nose because it was six on one and they couldn't outrun their pursuers, those good upstanding Christian folks....

No persecution. My ass. Maybe not "official" persecution, but it's the same thing, alive and well in the United States of America.

You are dreaming if you think we have any real freedom at all. It's mob rule here, same as always.

Interesting discussion, many good points, and yes discrimination does exist, but in some cases it is mixed...
Prisons are restrictive about Pagan Clergy - but not because they are Pagan, but because they require visitors to have real ID's that match their stated names. "Sister Crystal Moonbeam" isn't getting in - but "Susan Jones, SS# 123-45-6789," (with a drivers lisence to prove it) will have little difficulty... (My GF's former coven did prison work)

Theoretically religion isn't supposed to enter into child custody cases - but if the parents are engaging in practices that are questionable, then saying they are "Pagan religious practices" does not mean the courts are discriminating when they take the kids away from a parent that brings them to a skyclad Gardnerian ritual, or does other things considered "abusive"...

While there are certainly cases of discrimination, I would avoid jumping to the conclusion that all such claimed cases really are. Before jumping, get as many facts as possible from both sides, and ask if there might be good reason without the religious angle...

"Sometimes its the appearance of militancy that counts, not actually pulling a trigger. "Don't Tread On Me" is a better motto than "Well, if you say so." Just an opinion.

Arion the Blue"

Maybe it's the appearance of the *word* 'militancy' that's bothersome, Arion. Just that 'siege mentalities' can be kind of seductive to many, and kind of counterproductive in a lot of ways. One of the intentions of hate-speech is to terrorize communities into isolation and invisibility.

I've spent some nights up with the household shotgun, myself, when I lived in a 'Red State.' But I do caution about the false sense of security (or insecurity) guns can engender.

Then again, in some places, it seems people think *not* having a gun means you're some 'liberal threat to their way of life,' or some such. It all depends on the situation, but I caution against the word, if not the idea, of 'militancy.'

'Don't tread on me,' ...sure. In some places, a household being a prickly pear, (more often thanks to our, umm, Renfaire gear, in my case,) rather than an easy target, can make people think twice, which is thankfully enough times for most to think *better.* Or maybe just to pass out drunk before acting out their 'plans.' That works, too. :)

I guess that gets down to the poverty thing again. What people say from the comfort of their churches and middle-class lifestyles: "Oh, no, this doesn't lead to oppression, it's *loooove,* when we say: ...Read this 'Word Of God' which does in fact have words in there saying "Kill these people and be saved from your distresses," """

Well, what trickles down to the underclasses ain't always so comfily-abstract. Very different world than I happen to know many Christians imagine of their 'missionary work' in the cities. Especially for the kids who end up there cause they were abused and cast out, in the name of 'proper morality' and 'saving them from Hell,' cause of their beliefs, their way of seeing the world, their sexual orientations, or just cause someone got mean.

Common humanity is what keeps these environments *together,* really, in the main, with surprising dignity and nobility among stuff most look away from, but dogma and fear and superstition, fuelled by certain divisive agendas, also can lead to fears and incidents of violence, and a lot of what we so-reasonably discuss on the Internet looks *very* different from there.

A lot of the 'all-healing message' (mostly designed for the relatively-comfortable, if discontent parts of society) that some so confidently insist cures all ills, maps out very differently for those who live in the shadows. Often talked about and preached *to,* but rarely actually *listened* to. I think they should be *heard,* more. I think it shows an awful lot about what some of these 'messages' we debate about *really* do to the human mind and soul.

Not just those with little to lose: cause everyone probably has a part of their mind like that.

If you *really, really* listen, that is.

With real fearlessness, that is.

Y Gwir Y Erbin Byd.

That means, among other things... Watch the siege mentality. :)

I've seen what this whole process spits out, and what grows there, well, way before this 'culture war' really came to a head. Heard everything from, 'You're a good Witch,' (from people more or less used to urban spirit-workers,) to, 'You must be an angel.' (from people convinced that being schizotypal meant they were 'demon-oppressed' because of insufficient Christian piety on the part of the world at large.)

Somehow folks more or less got along, particularly considering the circumstances.

Yeah, some of the best Pagan rituals I've ever been to ...(and to me, possibly the sentimental fave) were among dispossessed Pagan people hiding out, doing the best we could. Preachers would come to our door screaming, 'Give us money to pretend to send you to Hell, you greedy infidels!' 'Hey, we don't have much, and don't much care to. And we know plenty of hungry people personally. Would you like to inspect?'

Couldn't help but notice, 'Gee, this is like the tale of the Early Christians.' Guess I was kind of on the run from some folks who were professedly very much 'concerned for my soul' at the time, myself.

Guess maybe fifteen hundred years later, we could draw one of two conclusions: a) It's not really about theology or a litany of martyrdoms, or b) Hey! Let's do this again! You guys get to be Rome. What fun! Are those Crusades too distracting, though? We're good. :)

Now that everyone here is nice and comfy, maybe we could learn from *that,* too.

People that defame or come after us, or other minorities, in the name of 'morality,' ...well, I have to ask, 'Priorities, there, Padre?'

On the Internet, I have to ask, when people blithely presume merely assuring people that whatever is in the Bible is goodness, ....ever been shot at? ;)

I would like to point out that real "persecution" looks like the Holocaust or what is currently happening to Christians in China, Turkey, or nearly any Muslim-controlled country in the world. You are jailed and perhaps killed simply for your beliefs.

If anyone in the West says there is persecution here, it is a load of crap. Not that what we have is painless or should be tolerated. It should never be tolerated. But, we should be reminded what "persecution" really is and perhaps we should describe what occurs in the West as something else.

We're not Wiccan, but we're close enough that we're often lumped into that category. Let me tell you my experiences, in flashback form, of living in the bible belt in a town of about a quarter of a million people.

My child could not celebrate Halloween at her school - it was "a satanist holiday" and that was expounded by her teachers in front of the class, and by the principal on the loudspeaker.

They did insist on celebrating Christmas, complete with nativity pagent. In a public school. Complete with "why don't you want to be in the school play?" and the attendant fallout. Including the "expected donation by parents" to cover the expense. And the follow up phone calls when the donation was not sent in, not counting the hassle given to my child who had to give them the note in the envelope they so graciously provided for the purpose of sending the funds in.

Halloween was officially "moved" to another day, if not cancelled entirely, if it happened to fall on a Sunday. Christmas was never moved. Not Easter, either.

People literally screamed at my daughter, when she was six, that she was participating in a satanist ritual and going to hell when she rang their doorbell for candy and held out her little candy-sack, dressed as a Ninja turtle. (It might have been the year she was dressed as a pirate.) One needn't have opened the door if.... She was in first grade, I think. First grade.

Literature in the public libary and on the shelves of booksellers was subject to picketing and vandalism by local fundamentalist christian groups who didn't like it. Rather than buying it and, thus, taking it out of circulation they'd just grab it from the shelves and publically rip it up, congratulating each other as they did. Much to the delight of the local newspaper, who'd run a picture of it on the front page. (Kristallnacht? Whut's that?)The local sheriff would come slap them on the wrist then go have supper with the perps over at the Fellowship Hall.

Hence, we had to order our reading material and have it shipped through the mail. We were constantly on edge that the shipper wouldn't wrap it well enough to cover the titles and that the mailman would turn out to be one of those crazy types. This was general literature, nothing new-age. I had to read some Russian translations for school. I was waiting for "commie" to be tacked onto our designation.

There were "blue laws" that kept us from shopping on Sundays, because we were supposed to be in church or reading the bible. Most shops were closed on Sundays for the same reason. We couldn't see a doctor or get a prescription filled on a Sunday. There was no daycare, either.

We were constantly beset by people asking "have you found your church home" at our door (at least two a month, on slow months) and unleashed a nasty stream of notes, letters, and confrontations at our home, the local grocery store, and on the sidewalk by our library when we told the last of that batch that we were not christian, had our own beliefs, and wanted nothing to do with their particular group, "thank you very much, anyway."

You haven't had a good time until someone comes up and tells your five-year-old, who's toodling around on a tricycle outside your home, that her mommy is a sinner and that she's going to hell for not "believing" and would suffer horrible tortures for all eternity there. Good old christians, putting a shy little five-year-old girl into hysterics to further their faith. Nice touch there, folks.

It's noticed when you're the only elementary school kid who's not in church on Wednesday nights, or who doesn't have stories of vacation bible school to tell when the teacher asks about them specifically after school starts in the fall.

Most kids don't care. It's their parents who sit around and gossip and spread nasty talk, and encourage by their behavior that same thing in their children. And children can be damned cruel.

Teachers and administrators did nothing other than say "well, you have to expect that kind of thing" when you're not "like us". (Almost a verbatim quote there.)

We had to sit through christian prayers at the start of almost every public gathering - sports events, city council meetings, girl scout meetings, community charity runs. (Nobody ever asked what our prayers are, if we had any, or if we minded - it was "their" school, "their" community, etc. - Looks like they were firm believers in "might makes right.")

Fortunately, we had no pets. I'm convinced if we'd had a dog we'd have come home to find it hurt, or worse, there. The car was vandalized a few times, right after confrontations, but I can't prove who did it. The coincidences and timing was kind of damning, though.

That's just from a four-year stint, in the '90s. I could relay much worse from the past, but prefer to let those memories rot into oblivion as nothing good would come of dredging them back up.

My experience is that a lot of professed christians ... aren't.

The examples here are terrible, but I don't want the people who are reading this page to think that the prejudice against pagans is always this specific. It's not one or two acts against individuals by extremists; it's a constant and widespread prejudice, and yes it's international.

We're not free to state what our religion is to co-workers (or sometimes even family), or wear a symbol that represents our path, or do many of the things that should be protected by "freedom of religion".

Modern neopaganism (and most of what is now called 'Wicca') is about as different and dangerous as Buddhism. The word 'witch' has inescapable negative meanings, but that doesn't affect whether a person's practices would actually be offensive to anyone else - and others rarely bother to check. Apparently viewing life and nature as sacred (including human life) makes you evil.

Christianity has been mentioned most on this thread because it is primarily that religion which has a big problem with paganism. Not the Jews, or Hindus, or Buddhists.

An organisation in the UK launched "Witchfest" (http://www.witchfest.net/) and knew it would get some Christian protesters. It did, they came with the placards and shouting. Some witches opened the door, commented that the protesters looked a bit cold, and would they like a cup of tea?

The Christians seemed disappointed, and left soon afterwards.

Nearly every pagan I know who has been open about their religion has stories of real persecution and discrimination to tell. I absolutely guarantee it goes beyond the slight embarrassment felt by US christians when the public views them in light of their louder extremist brethren. This is job-wrecking, children-losing ostracism by society, and it's not on a small scale or a personal level.

Starhawk, thank you for being so open, and so insightfully moderate, for so many, many enjoyable years. Your books and research have guided me through all my years as a contented solitary practitioner of the wise-craft. I hope you will continue to moderate such reasoned and REASONABLE discussions as this one!

(Apologies for the length: I started this yesterday. :) )

Well, Athena, there's no 'refuting' what's going on, just the general denials and lookings-the other way that enable the worst of what happens to us: admitting the abuses are happening against real people may come uncomfortably close, for some, to admitting Paganism is real religion, ...and that might mean having to *do* something (like at least standing up and saying 'Stop') when Christian fanatics commit hate crimes. They aren't shy about it, in a lot of towns.

What Mr. Bong Hits for Jesus there dismissed as 'ridicule' is one of the mechanisms of denying what's happening here in this country. Not just to us. But to anyone that a certain group doesn't like.

For us, yeah, particularly dangerous: if they can deny we even *exist,* really, then they can commit acts of discrimination and worse with relative impunity: like the government refusing to address for twenty years, while hiding behind 'procedure' ...our veterans' rights to not have their faith, service, and *death* ...*erased* from public recognition and, perhaps, posterity. When we satisfy the rules, they *change* the rules, 'lose' paperwork, over and over again.

Why?

Erasure. Recognizing our dead flies in the face of certain stereotypes... and certain convenient rhetoric like, 'Our God is the source of all good and patriotism,' ...And it points out the fact that things just don't seem to work out that way, particularly when there are cases of religiously-inspired violence and repression against us...

There's been a sort of program on to inure people to certain ideas about what constitutes 'real religion' and what religions fit... certain narratives. (Notice how that Big Story about how very much of America started considering itself Spiritual Not Religious sort of... went away? Now on the news, they emphasise 'How Many Believe In God.' )

There has in fact been at least one gathering in Washington, ...the Merry Meet Me In DC or some such comes to mind. I understand the government lowballed the Park Service's estimates of how many were there by a factor of ten, and if the media's estimate of how many Pagans there are in the country were correct, why, every single one of us must have shown up. :)

No, America's not out to get us, though. We're just ...*problematic to certain narratives.*

Our reality, our humanity, even our shared heritage, is *inconvenient* to those who want to use a sense of monolithic, monotheistic religion to lead folks around by the nose.

There are a lot of folks out there who don't think of themselves as 'haters,' either: they're just kind of attached to their own religions' self-serving view of Pagans as people who were benighted dupes and hedonist villains with no redeeming qualities, until of course, monotheism came along, ...a few folks haven't noticed modern Pagans ain't exactly the Roman Empire: in some ways we're more people who've inconveniently showed up and refused to be savages.

Or they just never bothered to look, and feel 'oppressed' when we don't fit their story, cause 'Pagans' and 'Witches' are supposed to be *characters in their narrative,* not *real people.*

Certainly not *good* people. Good Americans. Good neighbors. 'People of faith,' even.

For a lot of haters, of course, it's a lot simpler. They just need to feel like they have permission or justification for their own hateful impulses, ...so they can do some things to Pagans that would never be allowed to be done to members of majorities. Some will even say, "Anything we do to you is 'love' cause we're 'saving you from Hell.'"

But, the good news about this whole thing is, it's reactionary against a more modern, more connected, more open, and more pluralistic society that, I think, *has been* coming about, and which reactionary elements are trying to prevent by promulgating division and war.

What's really going on in some circles, is, we, among others, have become scapegoats for the churches' own struggles with modernity: conservative Christians have clearly been feeling like their worldview is falling apart, so, we see the same old story: "It can't be our 'perfect religion,' ...find someone to blame." It's not very convenient for people who tend to base their actions and political agendas on the idea that without fear of their Hell, people will be totally 'out of control,' for there to be this group of people who get along just fine without.

There are some out there who like to claim 'Christians are the charitable ones, here,' ...and to 'prove it,' turn down donations from our holiday can drives. Interesting. (One thing that may confuse Christians on this point is, when we help people out, there is nothing in Paganism that says we have to advertise it, but it's just insulting to not be able to say when asked, particularly when Pagan 'uncharitability' is used to deny 'Faith-based' funding when some have a project in mind.)

It's not that most Christians are out to get us, or want to be haters, (in fact, many tend to doublethink around it, 'Oh, those haters are just trying to 'save' people,' which is a problem of itself.) They tend to be somewhat disinformed about what Pagans are about, (let's face it, they're brought up to believe Pagans were the bad guys, and a lot of people would rather have an enemy than examine why they're turning people off, or why the policies they're told to support *don't work.* )

It seems to me that the neocons, and really, what we can only call a theocratic fascist element in society, are so urgently trying to polarize people *against* religious freedom for non-Christians, against science, against gays, against reason and democracy itself, is because of a certain challenge of modernity. It's a more-connected and less-isolated world: many in the next generation simply don't accept the old prejudices, and this scares them.

So, yes, that can make this a dangerous time.
If certain Christians like to claim 'We're the victims here, we're trying to 'save' you, ' ...of *course* that implies 'You're damned, you're lesser, you're immoral, and it's OK to impose my will on you cause nothing's worse than this Hell we imagine.'

So, the best thing to do, is really to *know your neighbors.* Make sure you're a human being to the people immediately around you. Not everyone has to be an activist: perhaps, actually, the point is that well, we're neighbors. The nice person up the block could be Pagan. Sometimes it helps if they know and trust you as a person before the subject comes up, if at all. Certainly, some of us have to speak up, in this world, but there's a question of timing. It doesn't always do much good to seem to *appear* suddenly, saying, 'I'm a Pagan' and then have people only *see* you through the lens of prejudice and disinformation from the start.

Certainly, it's a shame so many of us have to hide, especially if it keeps us from community:

(it's an utter disgrace for America, I think, that firefighters can't trust people in their own *house* enough to be open about their religion... Ladysmokeater, I suggest checking out the Officers of Avalon, a group for Pagans in the emergency services, for some support,)

And certainly, if *no* one speaks up, or otherwise represents, that has its own obvious dangers; with so many out there bent on defaming us, silence is dangerous, too. But neither is there an *obligation* for all of us to reveal ourselves. (not all of us are even particularly *good* at it, for that matter.)

Certainly, given that the discrimination exists, there's something to be said for some of us keeping our powder dry, too, at least while the Christian world is having its crisis (hopefully it won't be too late when the smoke clears,) But.

The worst of the abuses against us happen to those of us who are made vulnerable by *poverty.* The discrimination does sometimes mean *dispossession.* So, ...pick your battles.

I call on our Christian neighbors who are reading this to stand up for the freedoms America *really* stands for. This 'Hell' excuse frankly doesn't wash. I've counseled people who were *tortured* in the guise of some kind of 'exorcism' ...for having Pagan beliefs, or just for being mentally-ill (often from the selfsame abusive treatment in the first place.)

There's so much good out there that needs doing, that we could *all* agree on.

This fighting over *beliefs* only serves the greedy and irresponsible elements in our society who would turn us against each other rather than face up to real problems or put some kind of check on corporations and politicians who want manipulable sheep for a populace, and unfettered profit for an 'elect' few. ...Who literally seem to have some kind of apocalyptic 'scorched earth' policy as they grow further and further out of touch with, really, the general goodness and civility of an American people just beginning to realize what our freedom and equality can really mean. It's scary to some, maybe a little bewildering to many, and very promising to others.

Plenty of Christians have been rising to the challenge.

To the rest, I could say, with perhaps excessive bravado: Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

Interesting times, indeed.

Firstly, let me rephrase my earlier statement: the Second Amendment should only be a recourse when all the legal options are exhausted or your life is in danger. Then shoot.

Secondly, Brambleton: If a group of 100 people approached you to convince you that the way you live your life is wrong, that everything you believe and practice is wrong, and eternal torment by a capricious deity is your destiny if you don't, AND ONLY ONE OF THEM BEATS YOU HALF TO DEATH to encourage you while the others look the other way, how well disposed are you going to be to the entire group? The fact is, the term "Christianlike behavior" would have a lot less chill up the spine of your average Pagan if y'all would keep a better eye on who is doing what in the name of your religion.

Yes, we can slink away into the shadows -- but we've done that an awful lot, in the last few centuries, and it's gotten old. What do we have to do to keep from being abused by the majority religion? Reminds me of the story from Steinbeck, wherein a bunch of displaced Kentuckyans had converged on some town where there was a rumor of work, and the locals didn't like them or their funny way of talking one bit. So they started arresting people, beating people, trying to drive them away. The Kentuckyans wisely held a very peaceful "Turkey Shoot" (A venerable Southern tradition) and after the locals saw three or four hundred Kentuckyans with rifles walking through their streets, the beatings stopped.

Sometimes its the appearance of militancy that counts, not actually pulling a trigger. "Don't Tread On Me" is a better motto than "Well, if you say so." Just an opinion.

Arion the Blue

Laurie:

My mom is convinced that both Mardi Gras and Halloween are Satanic in nature. She teaches in a Christian pre-k program, and since the school can't celebrate Halloween, they have a "fall festival" party on October 31, or the Friday immediately before it, so that they won't be celebrating a "pagan" holiday. The kids dress up in costume, there are booths with treats, bobbing for apples, pumpkins with happy faces drawn on them (no jack-o-lanterns), etc. I don't have the heart to tell her that celebrating the seasons is about as pagan as you can get.

re:I have also had crosses burned on my front lawn.

HOLY CROWS..that happens? I have never heard of that here in Canada. I did deal with discrimination while going through a divorce in the 90's. My ex put into his article against me that I was wiccan and alluded to cultish things I may be doing to the kids. Of course when we were together he didn't have a problem with me being pagan. Being a lawyer himself, he knew how to use language for scare tactics. My lawyer told me to counteract that accusation by stating I had an interest in comparitive religions...it never amounted to anything int he end thankfully.
Later years while living in a small farming and bedroom community of Toronto, I had to hide my pentacle because I drove a schoolbus and parents love to complain.
There was an evangelist lady in our community who would pass out comic books at Samhain. Inside would be cartoons describing how halloween is the devils making..blah blah..what a riot...it made me crazy at first, then all I could do was laugh, or I may cry..blessings all. Laurie in Newfoundland

Bramble,
As a former Christian (I was raised Southern Baptist), I understand that you have a mandate to witness.
I don't object to having a cheesy tract offered to me, or having someone offer to tell me about Jesus, as long as they are willing to drop the subject when I say "No thank you." A polite refusal should end it. You seem to be the type that would accept that and move on.
Blocking people's paths, physically restraining them, or attempting to enter their homes without permission is not acceptable, jumping people in their back yards/homes and beating them up is beyond unacceptable, and I seriously doubt that Jesus would approve of such behavior.

Lepid,

As a southern Baptist for the past 20 or so years, I think you'd find that the people who "attack" you are the exception rather than the rule. Although if you ask me if a non-Christian goes to Hell, I would answer in the affirmative. Any other response to that question would be a lie and contrary to my beliefs.

Also, I'm hesitant to use the word "convert" when talking about people accepting Jesus Christ. Christians are mandated by the Bible to "spread the good news". That, of course, does not mean shoving the Bible down people's throats are forcing them to listen to you. But it does mean a commitment to share their personal testimony and the love and grace of Christ. If you choose not to accept these gifts, that is certainly your decision. I will still love you as a brother/sister and will respect your decision, but that doesn't change the fact that yours is eternal damnation. That also doesn't make me a better person than you or a perfect person in any way, shape, or form. It is what it is.

"Keep on loving each other as brothers. Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it." -- Hebrews 13: 1-2 (NIV)

AzureLunatic:

I certainly did not mean to imply that all Christians are like that. My circle of friends and family follow many spiritual paths - Christian (both Catholic and Protestant), Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Mahikari, pagan, atheist, and none of us make efforts to convert the others. I also hang out with a really cool congregation of Unitarians. It's just that the only ones that haver ever attacked me, either with offers of physical violence or threats of eternal damnation, were Protestant Christians.
But you are right - there are many Christians who make honest attempts to walk the walk of Ieshua, and I respect them for it. They aren't the ones engaging in forcible proselytizing.

I think it is a dreadful shame that people of all religions can not get along. It bothers me deeply that the same people who preach love and forgivness also want to point a finger at, and judge others that dont fit the mold that they have made for the rest of the world to fit in. anyone that uses Jesus to justify viloence, hate, or disrespect of others clearly does not represent what I was told in my childhood sunday school, what he stands for. To use religion as a tool of control and hate is wrong, no matter what religion is behind it. Acceptance of others should be at the forefront of what we teach our youth.
I can not openly express my views because being labled a "Pagan" or a "witch" would isolate me in the firehouse from the people I can not afford to have distrust me.

I have enough Christian friends that I've heard some of them express that they feel reluctant to state that they're Christian, because of the bad opinion that many people have against people who profess their Christianity in public.

I wouldn't call them "persecuted", because no one is trying to stop them from practicing their faith or subjecting them to threats and outrageous abuse if they indicate their faith, but I would say that they are also victims of the sort of abusive characters who cite Christianity as the motivation and justification for their abuses.

Sometimes it seems these days that the only people who will say "I'm a Christian" in public are the people who will use their religion as a bludgeon against anyone of another religion. With that kind of reputation, it's natural for a pagan without many contacts in the Christian community to brace themselves for some kind of impact whenever they hear someone say "I'm Christian." Often enough, it is justified; too many times, that kind of defensive reaction also leads to heightened misunderstandings and an escalation of tensions.

The fact is, I know many people who are Christian and do not use their religion as an excuse to abuse others. They gave me a chance, and didn't assume that I was a minion of Satan trying to destroy their religion and try to convert me. I gave them a chance, and didn't assume they were going to try to convert me or exercise any of the other usual abuses on me (though you had better bet that I was watching carefully for the first sign of anything like that!) In the end, they're fine with me and my faith, and I'm fine with them and their faith, and none of us are thrilled with big-name, big-mouth bigots dominating the public face of Christianity.

Honest, caring, loving people who try their best to walk the walk that Jesus was supposed to have walked are not the enemy. People who cite Jesus as the reason why they murder, batter, slander and intrude are the enemy.

My dear Pagan friends, my dear Christian friends, please don't be blinded by the name of someone's religion and think them a good person or a bad person just from that. Let their actions reveal what kind of person they really are.

Greetings All.
It really is very disturbing to hear all of the horrible things that have happened to those who have posted. Having been in the social service field for almost 30 years, I totally understand the fear of "coming out of the broom closet" when dealing with professions involving the government and especially when you are dealing with issues regarding children. Every time I read Starhawk's column, I realize how much the Goddess has protected me and mine from harm's way over the course of my Pagan journey. Where I lived in Missouri, I was considered the "loose cannon" of the social sevice field for 20 years...and I still fit that bill. My beliefs are fairly common knowledge...and I openly wear my jewelry, bumper stickers and all. I have never yet been accosted nor slandered due to my religious path...and I am currently old enough not to care what anyone else thinks. But if anyone even attempted to persecute me for being Wiccan...I'd have my attorney on them so fast they wouldn't know what hit them ....I know alot of attorneys that owe me favors ... I'd call them all !!!! I'd call every government agency I could think of, call the newspapers from the local to the national...and any underground papers of worth that I could find. I'd be screaming bloody HELL all over the place. I'm known for fighting tooth and nail from the bottom to the top. Everyone has to choose their battles...mine have always revolved around children. So, I guess it's time I stepped into the fray...if anyone knows of an advocacy group for Pagans who are battling for their kids at home or at school...please post that group's contact info on this site... Blessed Be.

It's so nice to see positive articles such as this in the news. As a local leader of a Pagan/Heathen group, I am always discussing religious discrimination among our group members. I, too, long for the day when people of ALL faiths, religions, and sprititual groups may worship feely both here in the USA and worldwide. Keep up the great work Starhawk! Know that you are not alone.

Thorin

Starhawk, you are a magnificent human being. Thank you very much.

I would like to advise that anyone interested in the subject of religious descrimination to Google "Christian privilege"-- descrimination can also be subtle.

xx Clara

(Note: I'm "in the closet" about my practice of Roman Reconstructionism so I'm not even using my real name, though that's typical on the internet. How silly, but that's the way things happen to be.)

Starhawk,

As always, you write great articles, and all of the comments here are both amazing and horrifying. But I have to ask, why doesn't Newsweek publish your writings? We're subscribers at my house, and I for one would like to see Newsweek publish a brief but TRUTHFUL article on what Paganism really is (you know, in their little "Beliefnet" section).

I for one, am in the "broom closet," meaning that not even my family know of my beliefs. On the other hand, I'm a very private person when it comes to religion and am not apt to share anyway. However, I once considered becoming a college professor, but decided that I probably wouldn't get hired if anyone knew I was Pagan, and since I'd someday like to be OUT of the broom closet, this sort of put a damper on my plans.

The one thing I think is really telling in terms of Pagan discrimination is that every Pagan who is "out" has to be part educator, part activist. My roommate is from Korea (but raised American) and is a strong anti-racist activist and always talks about having to educate people about racism. That's another reason why I'm in the broom closet. I don't want to have to be an activist and an educator. I'm not comfortable in that role. And I don't think that anyone should have to take that load on their shoulders.

I always laugh cynically when the Christians whine and say that they are being "persecuted" because they can't proseletize and evangelize and try to foist their belief system off on people who don't want it. Being crucified, fed to the lions, drawn and quartered... now THAT was persecution. Being told, "Go away, I don't want to hear you blather about Jesus"? I think that's called freedom of speech. And thought. You know, the stuff in the Constitution? Which, by the way, was written by Enlightenment deists, not Christians.

Now I must away before the thought police get me. It really is scary how much 1984 resembles 2007.

Terra,

I'm sorry for what happened to you, and I'm not trying to offend you, but what about forgiveness. What he did to you was wrong, absolutely, but the way you related certain feelings almost made you sound like that which you faced that night. What I mean to say is, heck, I don't know, he was an ignorant scared paranoid a**$&le that disliked himself and couldn't handle what you represented in conjunction with that. We sometimes try to destroy that which we don't understand and that which we fear. I only mean to say, that I don't believe in retribution as much as I hope to be merciful to those that spite me. (and just so you know, i've had a similar experience like yours, so I'm not saying that I don't know what the fear you experience afterward is like.)
I hope to think that I wouldn't stop someone else from having a chance at life regardless of what they did to me, I couldn't do it and not feel like I was deciding their worth as a human being.

"The true definition of Magic, little one, does not center around spells or incantations, or the mysterious waving of arms....no....true Magic is 'the art and science of changing states of mind at will.' And as we have learned by experience, action follows thought."

-The 21 Lessons of Merlyn

Maybe someone with legal knowledge can speak to this, but my understanding from back when I worked for the local police was that it wasn't up to the victim to press charges when someone had committed a crime. That was the job of the County Prosecutor and Police.

As far as that goes, as one of the officers used to say: "if you don't want the time, don't do the crime." I guess everyone needs to concider the potential consequences before going on terroristic and worse criminal rampages against others just because they happen to believe differently.

(((((((((Terra)))))))))

Thank-you for this article Starhawk, and thank-you Dana for that book. We haven't had issues, but I know a good reference tool when I see one!

We don't have Pagan fests in front of the Capitol in DC, but we do have a drumming circle every Samhain at the Jefferson Memorial. We have several active Pagan groups in the DC/Baltimore/NoVA area. We also have monthly "Pagan Nights Out", a Pagan Pride festival, etc. Open Hearth, Chesapeake Pagan Community, Free Spirit Alliance, etc. are all a part of the local scene. For best bets on where to meet DC area Pagan folk, go to the Events listing in Witchvox (www.witchvox.com) and look under Washington DC, Maryland, or Virginia.

Thank you, Starhawk, Terra, and others for showing people what the face of REAL discrimination looks like! Notice that there aren't any Christians posting on this board to refute what's going on??

Terra Gazelle

I'm sorry to read what happened to you.

No. We don't live in interesting times. We live in dangerous times. All the more inexcusable for claiming we are now "advanced" and "civilised".

Thank you Pagan,

I am not much the love and light type...I am too old and seen to much. But I really do believe that a thing like anger can put a hole in your soul...so on that Samhain, I got rid of it. You know how the Christians will say Let Jesus??? Well I let go also... When the man's sister came for that visit..I remembered I placed that is other hands..it was their care, not mine.

And yes, he did not have a heart for me...it all returns three fold. I had to trust in the universe to bring justice. She did.

I have never been hurt like that before just because of how I pray or how I see my Creator. What kind of people think that it is ok to hurt others, or to make someone feel less then?

I used to have an online Magazine..Ancient Heritage ( I had a few editors and they would not let me near editing or proofreading) but I interviewed Tempest Smith's Mother. I was able to keep up with the civil rights of Pagans. I can say this..if we had to carry ID cards that stated our religion...we would have less civil rights.It would depend where we lived...an American's rights should not depend on geography.

Any way Pagan, I hate guns. Hate them, and I am partly angry with that man for making me turn to the thought of useing one.

I often think that if Pagans were less like cats we could have a Pagan Fest in DC...right in front of Congress. lol...I remember the Freedom Riders in the buses going to DC. As long as we stay in the shadows nothing will change, and might get worse. As long as there are those that think discriminating against us is fair game...they will do it. Like the man that came into my home...the police knew where he was..it was just not worth their trouble to go get him.

And to be a bit Biotchy...he was a good Christian.

We live in interesting times, don't we?

Oh, and by the way, Terra... And they say there ain't no Justice.

I'd have marched him to the police station and said, 'I drop the charges after you confess.' That done, I'd say, 'May your new heart serve you better than your old one.' Kinda did something similar once.

Would he learn anything? I dunno. But that's not on you, whatever you decided to do.

There's too damn much violence out there. Too much rape, and too much hate. Too much of it based on the idea that if you can call someone a Witch or an ethnic or sexual slur, that the righteous 'goodness' they claim doesn't apply.

That's not your fault. It's a soul-sickness that caught up with the man. Not much consolation, I know, when you're stuck with the post-traumatic responses from someone else's hard-learned (or unlearned) lesson, but,

*hugs* Witch thou art.

You have every right to be angry. But that night is not you. You'll be in my prayers.

I tend to just say, 'Extremism is no liberty.'

Now, I'm all for a reasonable right to bear arms, but hiding behind weapons till things get worse isn't exactly what I'd call productive, or, for that matter, any way to live.

If 'they' come for your kids, 'they' also come with, the 'right' to have you shot, (and then say, Haha, we were right, them Pagans is dangerous.') This will not help your kids.

'Militant.'

There *is* no *militant.* Anglesey tells us about 'militant.' Nice gesture, maybe. But ultimately, just what the Romans wanted. What valiantly died there cannot easily be replaced.

And that shoulda been on more minds, I think.

Lawbreakers who think we're at once vicious Satanists and weak Granola crunchies, find out about our 'Sorry, Neither.'

Yes, we have warrior ways, which are often underappreciated. But don't let 'them' make a killer of you. Or a martyr.

That's not how 'we' play.

Maybe value the skills, but don't *think* with them. Ok? :)

Well Arion, I am with you on that.

Back three years ago I was by myself in my home watching tv and prepareing for Samhain. I was expecting company from out of state to join me in celebrating. I heard a noise and looked up and there was a dark form who rushed me. I was beaten that night...he was in my house for hours and intermittedly beat me and threaten to kill me. He accused me of some vile things...I was a Witch. Needless to say, I was afraid for my life. I will not go through it all, but just to say the Lady was with me.

When the police arrived after I was able to get rid of the man (it was someone I knew who had done yard work for us)dawn was breaking...it took them three hours to get there and they never found him. Though we told them where he was at.

That was three years ago...last spring his sister and her husband came to my house to ask if I would drop charges on him...he needed a new heart and with criminal charges he can not be put on the donor list. For a split second I thought that I was still alive and though he hurt me the pain is gone..But then I thought...yes the pain is gone, but the memories live on. And though I do my best to follow the Rede...I hope he is dead. I lived for months with a gun in my hand when I went out side. I kept my home locked tight, I still do. He took away my safety in my own home. And why did he do that? because I am a Witch. I am a Witch.

terra

As one who has twice been physically accosted by roving evangelists, (both times while visibly wearing a pentacle)I have to say that I find Christian claims of persecution hard to swallow.

The first time was on campus. I had half an hour between classes, and decided to grab a quick sandwich and cup of coffee at the student union. A guy walked up to me, thrust one of those cheesy tracts in my direction and I told him "No thanks." I stepped slightly to one side to go around him and he stepped in my path, thrusting it at me again, and said "But it's about Jesus!" I said "I know what it's about, and I'm really not interested." Again I tried to sidestep him and again he blocked my path. He said "But he MADE you!" I replied "No, my mom and dad made me." He argued "No, they didn't." By this time, I was working very hard to maintain my self control with this idiot who was keeping me from my meal. I replied, "Yes, they did, but I really don't have time to explain the process to you at the moment." I tried AGAIN to sidestep him, and this time, he grabbed my arm. At that point, I lost all interest in maintaining my cool, turned my body into his, pressed my knee into his groin, and told him that if he did not release my arm, I would relocate his gonads to his throat. He let go. I guess I was persecuting him.

The second time was when a pair of JW's came to my house. I politely declined their offer of a copy of The Watchtower, and started to close the door. One of them stuck his foot between the door and the sill. As far as I was concerned, once part of his body crossed my threshold uninvited, he had committed home invasion. I threw my entire weight against the door in a sincere attempt to break every bone in his foot. You'd be amazed at the words those guys know when they're in pain. I guess I was perscuting him by not allowing him to barge into my home.

Around about 1988 or so I was in Seattle (ironically enough, to attend a "Rock and Roll Ritual" with Starhawk -- nice lady)and I happened to also go to an SCA event where I met a Pagan couple: She was a witch, he was a follower of Thor. Both had been in the military, and during a posting to a base in Hawaii, their babysitter, a 16 year old Evangelical, discovered their ritual tools. She freaked, trashed the house, and called the MPs. Their three kids were taken away from them and given as foster children to Evangelical officers families. They hadn't seen them since. I'd love to hear what happened in that case.

In my own case, I'm happy to note that not only do I enjoy the protection of the First Amendment to practice my religion, I also enjoy the protection of the Second Amendment to protect that right. I urge as many Pagans as possible to consider that clause of the Bill of Rights as germaine as the First. Because someday it might be YOUR kids they come for. "Extremism in the defence of Liberty is no vice." Want to get the Evangelicals off your back? Get militant. Find some militant friends. Network. Communicate. And always have an escape route.

Arion the Blue
High Druid of Durham

*seethe.*

*lots of deep breaths.*

Plenty more where that came from, but that's not the point of all this, it's important to remember.

Most hatespeech and such is intended to *isolate* us.

Know your neighbors.

"In this day and age, there are still areas in the US where Pagans are actively discriminated against."

It happens in all areas, really: frankly, it only takes one bureaucrat or neighbor that believes the defamation of us to make life really difficult, and then claim they're being 'discriminated against' themselves, when they're told they're out of line.

Even in New England, since the Bush administration took power, I've noted with great disappointment how some folks who might be wearing a pentacle tense up with the, 'Oh, no, not again,' when you say hello, about it. But, heck, I've been shaken down by a Texan cop for over an hour cause my pentacle had slipped out of my blouse. Who demanded my name and address, kept asking all kinds of religious-related questions, trying to get me to raise the topic. ('I'm afraid I don't understand the question, *officer.* Is there something I can help you with? ' goes a long way, here: keeps it a matter of them prying into your religion.)

Several times had Christians try and intimidate me in multiply-threatening ways, and call it 'love.'

Do business, and sometimes people will be saying, 'I'm a Christian, so you know I'm honest,'
(you want to say, 'What does that make *me,* Mr. *used car dealer,*' but you realize it's better to act like that put you off your guard instead of the opposite, the better to get the information you need and not get the price jacked up. OK, you want to be honest, let's see you be honest. )

I worked in a Fundie-owned business once and saw them routinely raising prices for those they didn't approve of, I've seen kids taken away from their parents at holiday festivals because of one 'crusader,' ...seen non-Pagan friends keeping the screaming preachers away from our lawful gatherings, heard countless times about defamation used to deny Pagans everything from children to inheritances to our own homes: people burning temples with Bible verses on their lips and it not being called a hate crime...

Heck, it was a running joke in one of my tribes, 'It's just not a Pagan wedding until the cops show up.' (thankfully, they usually seem to get the point there's nothing even loud going on, but still.)

We're accused of 'black magic' while people 'pray' for bad things to happen to us, and, if you hadn't noticed, *we're* the ones who have to keep our cats inside on Samhain cause someone might decide they ought to kill our pets and companions to 'prove' we're 'sacrificing animals' or something, (what's the *deal* with that, anyway?)

People who go to Church twice a week and kneel before a big whackin' crucifix say whatever they do to us is 'love' cause we're 'idolaters.'

They say, 'You worship the created instead of the creator,' and you can say, 'What is this 'instead' you speak of?' all you want.

All geared up about what they attribute to some 'watchmaker,' and generally have no clue what *time* it is, I say.

They say, we're corrupting the youth by some vast conspiracy to produce books that have nothing to do with us. But Gods, no, don't let them anywhere near the kids to say, 'Umm, so's you know, getting pissed off ato abusive clergy and splattering heavy metal slogans and animal remains in yer church or local park isn't Witchcraft or Paganism.'

And they don't want to hear any different, probably for the exact same reason.

There's big money in being an 'ex-witch' or 'Occult Expert' ....many churches will pay for the disinformation, because it suits them, and even if these people have been roundly discredited time and again, it never seems to be enough to stop them doing further damage.

No, it's not Christians who are being discriminated against when they can't make public courthouses put up three tons of stone that *command* people to worship a certain God, and then haul the things around the country on a flatbed for public adoration....

But, one must wonder, who'd the real idolaters.

The real oppressors, even if they claim to be being martyred by the mere existence of others.

I'm a traditional witch - family.

I can truthfully say the most virile discrimination I've experienced personally was from the most "Christian" of folk.

My kids gave up trying to explain, and learned all about intolerance at a very young age.

"devil worship"
"what do YOU do on SUNDAY?"

Good "Christians" all. Just following their leaders.

We called them sheeple.

Starhawk thank you for this article, it is down-to-earth, it doesn't play the point-the-fingers cause it's all your fault game,that so many of us are fond of doing. Well done Starhawk! Dana D. Eilers, I have your book, it is very good, and very informative, and well sppreciated. My hats off to you too!

I just wanted to thank those such as Starhawk and Dana Eilers because the harrassment is real, the discrimination is real. I used to live openly as a Pagan many years ago, but that has changed. Because of my husband's job, I don't dare be an open Pagan for fear it might cost him his security clearance. I know there are other Pagans in our area, but my husband is afraid to socialize with them for the same reason. My son's friends can talk to him about Jesus as much as they want but he can't talk to them about Mama Gaia or the other gods for fear their parents wouldn't allow them to play together. When will we have a truly open society?

Pagans number in their midst attorneys who are watchful and fighting the good fight. I am a Goddess-worshiping Witch, an attorney, and an author. I wrote a book about the law and Paganism. It is called PAGANS AND THE LAW: UNDERSTAND YOUR RIGHTS. It discusses constitutional issues, employment issues, child custody issues, land use issues, and other legal matters of interest to Pagans. I am still waiting for someone in the mainstream, like Newsweek, to pick it up, read it, review it, and get a clue because we will not lay down and take it anymore.

In this day and age, there are still areas in the US where Pagans are actively discriminated against. Look at Darla Wynne. Her whole affair with the Great Falls City Council started over someone pointing out a Pagan-themed bumper sticker, which started the whole s**tstorm, up to and including the murder of several of her pets. Also, to anyone who claims that an open dialogue is necessary to dispel the negative rumors and stereotypes, all you have to remember is that some idiots won't change no matter what facts are presented.

To you christians out there who claim you're being persecuted because you don't have your pwecious widdle monopowy anymore, I have this to say to you: Send me an e-mail when someone advocates for your death or forced conversion based solely upon the fact that you're a christian. Let me know if in the unlikely event someone tries to stone you, hang you, drown you, burn you at the stake, or hook you up to a torture device. Then and only then can you claim persecution.

Not far from where I live there's a small town called Rock Hill, SC. If you're Wiccan, or fall anywhere under the umbrella of Neo Pagan you've possibly heard of it.

A young High Priestess, Darla Wynne lives there, and because she spoke, her cat was hanged, her parrot recently decapitated, she's received death threats, the list, unfortunately doesn't stop. The really sad part is that the local authorities brush her case to the side. She's offered little to no protection. There's been very little criminal investigation into the harassment that has plagued this young woman.

She's got gumption, though. She's choosing to stay and fight, with Wiccans and many other Neo Pagan folk standing beside her and keeping her in their thoughts and prayers.

The point, however, is that in the United States and in Europe this type of religious intolerance is mind boggling or should be.

I want to thank you, Starhawk for all of the work you've done, but especially for this piece, because the more people are aware that this behaviour takes place in our society, there's a possibility that more educated people will raise their voice against the violence (emotional and physical), and say, "This is atrociously unfounded, vile, primitive, and we don't want this type of discrimination and bigotry in our community!"

Be Blessed All. Thank you very much Terra. I had not heard the story about Tempest, and it breaks my heart now to hear it. I have been a Pagan for 19 years, nad have been a teacher and leader from time to time. I have also had crosses burned on my front lawn. I talk to people about my faith and pray that they don't use it against me in the future, but I always try. I just wish that people will just let people believe what they want and leave others in peace. Be Blessed.
Love, Light, and Peace to All.

"In 1999 GW Bush goes on the Today show and says...Witchcraft is not a religion and the military shouod not allow it to be practiced on our bases.'

I'm still trying to figure out when the Shrub became an authority on what does and does not constitute relgious faith.

Terra is right, and this goes way beyond 'ridicule' in both the US and UK. Every week there are more reports of people facing heavy discrimination - in court, from care workers and teachers, in schools and workplaces - because the public have no idea what practices and beliefs actually go into modern neo-paganism. And don't bother to find out.

Pagans hear Conservative Christians complain of discrimination and just have to laugh. Anyone saying that it would be better to come out about being a pagan in most parts of the US today clearly has no experience of actually being one. Education is key, but individuals still have everything to lose by going public if they live in the wrong State.

Yeah, Gazelle, ...Too often certain typed claim 'discrimination *by* us when they aren't allowed to invade our ceremonies with bullhorns.

I just don't feel like going into any kind of list of what I've personally seen and expereinced in my immediate communities, and what I've heard on the lips of some who didn't *know* I was Pagan.

There are plenty of good Christians out there, but too many are silent or turn away when this goes on in their communities. Or when the hatespeech that fuels it is broadcast.

We all live with the nagging worry that some unhinged person is going to listen to one of those radio preachers calling for our deaths and act on it.

When people claim there's 'discrimination against Conservative Christians,' it honestly seems trivial at best, and at worst something meant to inflame people into the *real* acts of repression many Pagans are all too familiar with.

Thank you, Terra Gazelle, for posting a much more detailed listing of incidents than I had time to put together! And thanks to all of you who have shared your personal experiences. Starhawk

James Clement Taylor, a member of an Eastern Orthodox Church, has commented on the subject of persecution of Wiccans that "these people of Wicca have been terribly slandered by us. They have lost jobs, and homes, and places of business because we have assured others that they worship Satan, which they do not. We have persecuted them..."

In 1999 a group of conservative Christian groups was formed on the initiative of representative Bob Barr (R-GA), in response to Wiccan gatherings on military bases. The group asked US citizens not to enlist or re-enlist in the U.S. Army until the Army terminates the on-base freedoms of religion, speech and assembly for all Wiccan soldiers.[63] The boycott has since become inactive. George W. Bush stated "I don't think witchcraft is a religion. I would hope the military officials would take a second look at the decision they made"

In 1999 GW Bush goes on the Today show and says...Witchcraft is not a religion and the military shouod not allow it to be practiced on our bases.

Now Pagan soldiers can not get their emblem of belief on their head stones...that court date is in July.

In September 1985 some conservative Christian legislators introduced three pieces of legislation designed to take away the rights of Wiccans. The first one was House Resolution (H.R.) 3389 introduced September 19 by congressman Robert S. Walker (R-Penn.)

Senator Jesse Helms (R, NC) made an amendment, Amendment 705, in the House Resolution 3036, The Treasury, Postal, and General Government Appropriations Bill for 1986, specifying that organisations that promote "witchcraft" should not be given tax-exempt status.
After being ignored for a while it got attached to HR 3036 by an unanimous voice vote of the senators. Congressman Richard T. Schulze (R-Penn) introduced substantially the same amendment into the Tax Reform Bill of 1985. When the conference committee met on October 30, the Helms Amendment was thrown out since it was not considered germaine to the bill. Following this Schulze withdrew his amendment from the Tax Reform Bill. Leaving only HR 3389, the Walker Bill. It managed to attract Joe Barton (R-Tex) who became a co-sponsor November 14. The Ways and Means Committee set aside the bill and quietly ignored it and it died with the close of the 99th session of Congress in December 1986

By George Hunter / The Detroit News <
LINCOLN PARK -- Twelve-year-old Tempest Smith sat alone in her bedroom one chilly morning late last month and gazed into the mirror. Shortly before her classes were to start at Lincoln Park Middle School, she kissed her reflection goodbye.
The lipstick smudges still adorn Tempest's mirror, sad reminders of the day the tall, troubled girl slipped a leopard-print scarf around her neck and hanged herself from her bunk bed.

Tempest's journal, discovered under her bed after her Feb. 20 suicide, offers a glimpse into a problem family and friends didn't fully understand: the incessant teasing she faced every day about her shy demeanor, choice of clothing and religious beliefs that made each day of school -- then eventually life itself -- unbearable.

Everyone is against me. Still, death will come sooner or later for me. Will I ever have friends again?

The haunting, hopeless feelings Tempest privately expressed in her daily journal are shared by an increasing number of children. Although older teens commit the bulk of suicides, at least 300 children ages 10-14 kill themselves annually nationwide. The number of suicides in that age group has tripled since 1995 in Michigan.
Taunts alone usually won't cause a child to commit suicide, experts say. But combined with other problems, constant ridicule by peers can be enough to push a kid over the edge. Teasing and bullying is a constant thread running through school violence.

On Monday, a ninth-grader at Santana High School near San Diego shot and killed two students and wounded 13 others; classmates said the 15-year-old was often picked on. And at Columbine High School in 1999, two students who'd been teased for years gunned down 12 classmates and a teacher before killing themselves.

But for every violent episode that makes headlines, there are more than 2,000 U.S. children each year who, like Tempest Smith, quietly decide they can't take it any more.

'Jesus luvs u'

Tempest often spent hours in her bedroom writing poems and other reflections in the small notebook she kept beneath her bed. The notebook was a birthday gift from her mother. It had a picture of pop star Ricky Martin on the cover.

Tempest, a tall, slim blond who got her name because she was born during a violent storm, wrote about typical youthful concerns: crushes on boys; her dog, a shar-pei named Buddy; trips to her grandmother's house. She wrote about family, calling her mother, "the best mom ever."
She also wrote about the pain she increasingly endured during school.

He said some things to me. It all made my skin boil. Afterward, my head ached.

Although Tempest had a few friends, many of her classmates had teased her constantly since elementary school. They teased her because she wore dark "Gothic" clothing to school. They teased her because she read books about Wicca, a pagan religion often associated with witchcraft. Her classmates often taunted her with Christian hymns.

Now people aren't chanting Jesus luvs u. They're singing it.

"Tempest was her own person, and the kids made fun of her a lot," said classmate Shayna Obiyan, 12.
Tempest didn't smile much at school, said 14-year-old Jason Pate. "She seemed sad all the time," he said.
Life at home was different, said Tempest's mother, Denessa Smith. "She was very talented," Smith said of her oldest child. "She liked to play the flute and write poetry."

Smith, who raised Tempest alone, wasn't concerned when her daughter became interested in witchcraft. "She asked me if I'd buy her some books about Wicca, and I said I wanted to read them first," Smith said. "The books all talked about love and nature. I didn't see anything wrong with that."

Tempest would get moody sometimes -- "but what 12-year-old girl doesn't?" wondered Smith, an administrative assistant at McDonald's Corp. in Taylor. "I knew she was being teased at school, but I didn't know it bothered her that much. She never told me."

'Her lips were blue'
Feb. 20 was a half-day at Lincoln Park Middle School. Tempest wasn't due in class until noon. She woke up around 10 a.m., showered, then donned her usual outfit: black pants and a black shirt. Then she ate a bowl of Frosted Flakes and watched television.
Because of the late school day, Annette Crossman, a family friend, offered to drive Tempest to class while her mother was at work. "She seemed perfectly normal," Crossman said.
After breakfast, Tempest went to her bedroom. "At around 11:30, I hollered that it was time to go," Crossman said. "She didn't answer."
Crossman noticed that Buddy, the family dog, was acting strangely. "He was walking around in circles and whining," she said. "That's when I knew something was wrong."
When Crossman rushed to Tempest's bedroom, she found the girl hanging.
"At first, I didn't believe what I was seeing," Crossman said. "Then it hit me, and I got a knife and cut her down. Her lips were blue; I was freaking out."
She called for an ambulance, which arrived within minutes. Tempest was rushed to Henry Ford Hospital in Wyandotte.
Crossman called Denessa Smith at work, and Tempest's frantic mother raced to the hospital. "When I got there," Smith said, "the doctors told me Tempest was probably brain-dead, but that they couldn't make an official prognosis."
A helicopter transported Tempest to the University of Michigan Hospital in Ann Arbor. At 5:30 p.m., doctors told Smith her daughter was suffering irreparable brain damage, due to asphyxiation.
At 10:55 a.m. on Feb. 21, after more than 50 organs were removed from her body for donations, Tempest Smith was taken off the hospital's life support system.

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There was a little boy who was autistic, his name was Talon..His mother went to the school to try to get learning aids for him. They found out she was Wiccan and a judge took her son away from her. He died alone in an institution.

There was a Dad who was devorcing his wife...she used his religion against him with visitation with his daughter. Though the wife had been Wiccan and since the divorce and moving back to her mom's home, changed back to Christian.

The judge made a decision that he was not to practice his religion when his daughter was in his home; he could not wear his religious jewlery or have his books on the shelves, or have his Pagan friends to the house. He was not to make his devotions or talk about his faith...

A young Mom here in Louisiana had a small business...after a few times of getting notes suffer a Witch not to live" and a threat to fire bomb her home and shop, she took her son and left.

In Fort Hood Texas a group of military Pagans were able to celebrate our Holy Days...this one Samhain they got all set up, then left to get ready. When they got back to the Circle, their tools were thrown in the dumpster and the Stone altar had been desecrated.

The MP's spent all of 20 minutes on the investigation.

I have been followed in public placews and screamed at, because I wear a Pentacle, a small silver one.

I have been an initiated Priestess for over 20 years...I lead a group, teach and minister as any clergy does. am ordained by a recognized Wiccan church...but when I was interviewed by a TV reporter, I was called a Self decaired Witch and Clergy. Now does any other person of any other religion get that?

I had a neighbor tell me that she brought her neice to my drive way and told her to stay away from my house...a Witch lived there. And she was laughing in my face as she said it.

Now some folks can call that ridicule, but I don't.

Though, certainly, I suppose, someone calling your religion merely 'freaky fun,' while making some kind of reference to pot, (still not sure what point about Paganism he was trying to make there, if any.)

...Well, that could be seen as 'ridicule.'

No, you don't have to be Pagan to enjoy life, but it apparently helps. :) Point is, there's a lot more to it than that. In most traditions, idle hedonists realize pretty quickly that there's a lot more work and serious spirituality involved if all they want is a 'guilt-free party.'

It's one of the most common prejudices about us, though, it's not necessarily the most overtly-harmful: that it's 'anything goes' among us and that therefore, of course, one big party or something. Of course this goes to general apsersions on our character and ideas we might be criminals or do other nasty things certain others like to accuse us of, so even there...

Randall,

Huh? What does a poem about smoking pot have to do with religious discrimination?

It's hardly a question of mere 'ridicule,' Brambleton.

Starhawk describes, rather mildly, the actual and real discrimination and harassment that Pagans hear about and experience every day. While you'll find plenty of us that will speak openly, there are real issues of safety, of job, and home, and family, of our right to worship, to not be defamed by those who insist on disinforming their own congregations because we might seem to make convenient villains.

In the current political climate, many of us don't wear our religious symbols openly, even.

It's pretty serious, but then again, people probably don't come to shout and protest and scare your kids when you're trying to have a gathering or a wedding or a religious ceremony, either.

You don't have to be a pagan to enjoy your life, do you? If you can get rid of the lions of Christianity? As best I can tell, that's coming. Jesus smoked dope in India, a trip he made for training purposed, the funding for which, I submit, was derived from the gold, frankincense (is that how you spell that?) and myrrh brought by wise men from the east. Paganism might be freaky fun ... but Jesus is the coolest and freakiest guy I have ever read about. I have written a poem.

The doctor … entered, took a seat and his office filled with clouds
His patient … needed an herb of nature but the thing was not allowed
They play … jazz, down on the corner, where the days are sad and bleak
Until we … strike up, the bandstand’s empty ‘cause our souls and minds are weak

Someone said something about someone … but his name was never used
Sweet Moses, this man was great, a prince … but mostly to the Jews
Lions not Christians on a far distant corner … don’t have time for history
Even though they love jazz, God, nature … they are wild, dumb refugees

Cane they called it … or Caneh (bbis), or something, and they used the stuff for trade
But when … the Lord called all of his priests there was some herbal incense laid
Don’t tell … the doctor or the jazzman who are trying to save some lives
Prohibition really didn’t work ‘cause booze is bad for your insides

Herbs cure pain, nausea and pressure that pounds sinus cavities
The drainage when I spit it on the wall spelled out the words “drug companies”
And while the movie Reefer Madness plays most nights in Washington Square
They want to tear the Square apart because some wise men once sang there

We miss the feelings of momentum when the avalanche was freed
Visions of heaven without lions needed some publicity
They killed our prophets like in ancient times who bucked the status quo
We’ll watch nature go up in smoke from a high, high bungalow.

As a Baptist, I have no idea what discrimination Wiccans may or may not endure. But "hiding in the closet" or not openly discussing your beliefs can't possibly be the best solution. The only way for people to come to understand your beliefs is to talk to them about it - whether or not they ridicule you in the process.

Hi, Starhawk,

Thank you so much for your always informative and and noninsulting posts. Sticking with the facts without calling names is the only way to go. Now if only everyone could be so civil! (Me included :-)

Ann O.

A very good article. Thanks for that. :)

Starhawk,

Thank you for your poignant essay. It tells the truth about the direction in which intolerance and discrimination are flowing in America today.

Starhawk,

i appreciated what you had to say in regards to paganism and discrimination. i hate having to hide my beliefs. i believe i'm a good person, and my beliefs are a part of what made me that way, and i want the ability to be open about it, the same way christians, muslims, jews, and buddhists are able to be open about their beliefs. I'm not saying they don't experience discrimination, i just don't beleive they have to outlive the same enduring stigma that Pagans do.

I'm a little outraged to find out that American soldiers who died to protect this countries freedoms have families fighting for the right to have a pentagram placed on their grave markers. It shouldn't even be an issue. that soldier gave his life to a cause, one that the government has propagated for centuries, that of freedom. are those freedoms only extended to those that believe in our governments god?