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Love to All,
"Aronaya"

Hello all--I think those who believe that Starhawk merely talks a good line should read more of her journal entries on starhawk.org, especially those written from Israel/Palestine and New Orleans. Starhawk has joined nonviolent protests in the West Bank, along with Palestinian civilians and Israeli peace activists (even rabbis!), and has been shot at, teargassed, and otherwise threatened merely for her presence there. She came here to Seattle (where I now live) in 1999 for the real (as opposed to the recently-filmed) WTO protests, and was arrested and jailed for several days with severe bronchitis. Following Hurricane Katrina, Starhawk and many friends spent many weeks in Louisiana helping stricken communities rebuild their lives, while urging others around the world to do what they can.

In any case, Starhawk is far more than a writer and/or professional activist/protester. In fact, the last time I saw her (when she was traveling with Donna Read in support of their film about Marija Gimbutas), she had just recently returned from Israel/Palestine, and I greeted her by saying, "I'm so glad you're home safe again!"

--Karen the LairMistress

Ther are no just wars only necessary and unnecessary. Put money in freinds pockets and avenging percieved wrongs against our family is no reason to send young people into harm's way.

Thank you Starhawk for an article that challenges us to stay in the place of questioning rather than in the place of answers and suredness. When we are faced with difficult issues a healthy relationship to faith/religion can support us in grappling with the "why?" that has no "because" and keep us seeking solutions that create a collective peace that is founded on a respect for the welfare of all and a concerted, cooperative effort to assure that the needs of children, families, communities and countries are met through mutaully sustainable and planet sustaining work. Another world is possible.

Greetings to Michael Shadowrose,

Thought you might find this interesting since you wonder what to do;

Noam Chomsky, Imperial Ambitions, 2006. pp. 39-41

David Barsamian:
At the talks you give to American audiences, you often are asked the question, "What should I do?"

Chomsky:
Only by American audiences. I'm never asked this in the third world. When you go to Turkey or Colombia or Brazil , they don't ask you, "What should I do?" They tell you what they're doing. When I went to Porto Alegre , Brazil , for the World Social Forum, I met with some landless campesinos, and they didn't ask me what they should do; they told me what they were doing. These are poor, oppressed people, living under horrendous conditions, and they would never dream of asking you what they should do. It's only in highly privileged cultures like ours that people ask this question. We have every option open to us, and have none of the problems that are faced by intellectuals in Turkey or campesinos in Brazil . We can do anything. But people here are trained to believe that there are easy answers, and it doesn't work that way. If you want to do something, you have to be dedicated and committed to it day after day. Educational programs, organizing, activism. That's the way things change. You want a magic key, so you can go back to watching television tomorrow? It doesn't exist. ... You aren't supposed to learn that dedicated, committed effort can bring about significant changes of consciousness and understanding. That's a very dangerous idea, and therefore it's been wiped out of history.

Well Michael Shadowrose,
I am not sure but the definition of a blowhard is one that talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk...Seems to me that Starhawk is not the blowhard here.

Starhawk has definately walked her talk. What have you done lately but call names and pontificate on nothing?

Bush got us into this mess and ever since the shat hit the fan every one that was for it has been asking those who had nothing to do with the lies to get us out.

Ever try to get out of quick sand...the more you struggle the deeper you sink. You have to stop fighting, and gently move slowly to the edge of the quagmire, but more folks in the mess won't help.

And blowing hard won't help either.

Michael Shadowrose: I don't think the question calls for alternatives, merely a judgement on the Iraq War. And Starhawk gives that, along with her thoughts on whether war can ever be just, and a link to religion.

Just because she's known as an activist doesn't make the statement "The invasion was carried out in spite of massive, worldwide opposition" any less true. She's still entirely correct when she says we have squandered any moral authority we might have had, and corruption and lies have permeated the situation from the beginning. Being an activist more than the average person doesn't disqualify you from being right when you oppose a terrible situation.

As for alternatives, no-one has put forward any worth hearing. This could be because it was difficult to conceive of one that would solve Iraq once the initial invasion went down the tubes - as Bush Snr knew full well. The "surge" certainly isn't it. The only way to avoid the massive bloodshed would have been to have an amazing post-war plan. Cheney didn't even have one, let alone a good one.

I'm inclined to agree with Starhawk on her closing points. War is unjust and horrific by definition, because it includes the murder and abuse of innocents *by definition*. It may be necessary, or inevitable, but we'd have to find a very different method of warfare to call it "just".

You know, I think Starhawk's words were very poignant...

But as a blowhard political activist whose personal agenda is to raise up the Wiccan religion as a political action committee, I find her whole rant rather lean in the area of meaningful or practical content.

Know why most activists do protests and other activist stuff? So, when the world goes down the drain, they can claim that they tried their best, and it's not their fault the world went to hell in a handbasket.

Causeheads achieve very little. Why? Because the government is run by politicians and special interests who have learned to tune them out.

Nowhere in her piece did I see anything suggesting what could be done to improve things, or any actions that the readers at home could take to make things better. Why? Gee, I dunno, maybe because nothing in the world of political activism can really have a positive effect on a negative situation, except maybe two or three elections down the road.

To illustrate the example above of the abusive neighbour:

We in the UK didn't go into Iraq to stop Saddam because he was murdering his own people. Indeed, when he used gas on the Kurds in the 80's, the UK voted not to even bring up the issue in Parliament. Why? Because we were supplying him with weapons at the time. (We used it as an example of why he was so terrible when going into Iraq in 2003 though, which was slightly comedy).

This war was all about Saddam playing with the price of oil, and the Neocons decade-old plan to own Iraq's oil. It had nothing to do with Saddam's violence, which we turned a blind eye to for years.

And no, I don't assume I have the right to attack or kill a neighbour because he's violent. It still remains the very last resort of any civilised society, and there are plenty of immediate and effective alternatives.

Sadly as the Goddess weeps for her children, i wonder if they notice the changes around them. As someone who works with the earth for a living, it scares me to see the changes in her. The chaotic change in our normal seasons. Does it not make people wonder what unseen changes (disasters) are to come?
Why is it we point fingers and demand others to listen and change to our ways when we can't even take care of our own back yards. We need to stand up and take care of the humanity around us no matter their religion. We are such a proud and forthright place (the united states). Then tell me since we are solving the worlds problems how we solved the homeless, and the diseased and those who go hungery every night.
The storm clouds of man are unending. Wars always come and go but that doesn't make them right. As the old saying goes "History is written by the winners". Have we learned anything from the past? Korea, Vietnam, the civil war. We are so proud of our sisters and brothers who take time to come forth in need in good times or bad. But what happens when they are needed here at home in their own communities and states.
People have forgotten how easy it is to point the finger but when it comes to looking in the mirror no one wants to own up to what it is they truely see in the reflection.
We would all be a bit more humble if we looked in that mirror more often.

blessed be starhawk, thank you for making us think and own up to what is important to us.

I am stating my own experience as a franciscan for many years- of course i know gandhi- he took his ideas from thoreau (its in his autobiography)
but the legacy of gandhi in reality is the separation of india and pakistan- it worked i the short term but has created a great division in the long term- it was just a fight being waylaid for the future- gandhi himslef spoke about this.

for me - i found it an incomplete philosophy- there is violence- and i never find in these discussions realistic ways to defer violence. but i respect peoples paths.
peace

Victoria,

I would call the police because they are trained and paid to take care of things like that. If I was the only one to be able to protect the innocent, then of course I would do all in my power to do just that. But I would do all I could to protect the innocent and myself...not to hurt the man...it is to stop him, not harm him. Sometimes you have to harm to protect and you
have to be prepared for that. I have been in that position so I do know what I am talking about...I also know that as a woman I am not strong enough to fight a man who is bigger and stronger then I am..but my brain works as well and usually better, and that I can use.

Being a pacifist is not being a welcome mat...it is not being a push over or a non being. It means to fight for non violence in a non violent way. Ever heard of Ghandi? He was non violent, he and his followers were not mats to be walked over. There is more strength needed in fighting in a non violent way then to shoot a gun or throw a rock.

First you try to come together in communication..finding commonalities and common truths. Talking is much better then killing.

Greetings All,
I think that the comments of TKH and Victoria seem to be a useless analogy that has nothing to do with the question at hand. One cannot use the comparison of a situation with a violent neighbor to the embroglio we find ourselves in with Iraq. Why? Simple, we did not attack and conquer Iraq because we claimed that Saddam was beating his wife or kids(being mean to his own citizens) We attacked him because of a fallacious claim that he was preparing weapons of mass destruction to use against us and that he had already aided and abetted an attack against us by terrorists. These reasonings were found to be false, probably purposely so. To return to the foolish analogy of the neighbor, the question might be better asked, if we covet part of the neighbors yard, or the mineral deposits below the neighbors yard, and want to teach all our other neighbors to fear and kowtow to us, is it better to accuse him of beating his wife and hang him, or just admit to all our other neighbors that we want to take his stuff for no other reason than that we want it? Of course we can lie that he beat his wife and later find that while that lie is found out, we can then claim, well, yes, that was wrong, but once we were over there we found he yelled at his kids so its ok after all..... From a moral and ethical standpoint, the only way to justify our invasion of Iraq would have been to claim it was for the purpose of defeating a despotic ruler, to have justified it with a lie reveals that the other reasons were actually NOT considered serious enough to intervene, or if so we wouldnt have had to make up a lie. You cant justify a lie for venal reasons simply because of other akward truths. Not if you want to be considered seriously....
Blessings,JohnnyDee

Good work Starhawk.While others use their idea of God to justify genocide at least some have the good sense to know that the creator loves us all and not just some of the human race.

you have a balanced attitude carol. as for this version of the US i world war II- well its one perspective. i have no desire to debate that subject,there are too many other things i must do.

i have many relatives in west and east germany. i know what happened.

Dear Victoria,

I do not think there is a problem with pacifism; it is not incompatible with self protection or the protection of others. The Japanese martial art of Aikido teaches one to redirect the force of the enemy, thus disabling them without attacking them.

As a pacifist myself, I will first call attention to injustice with my words. Using the example of the abused child, I would first call the police, because they are the ones who are best trained to deal with the situation. If they cannot get there in time or the child is in immediate danger I will place myself between the abuser and the child, telling the abuser to stop. If he then tries to attack me (because I have created a barrier between him and the child) I would use force, in the form of my self defense training to incapacitate them long enough to get the child to safety.

Pacifism is not the avoidance of violence at all costs but keeping it as a very last resort. It is a more intellectual and informed position than those who believe that they can only solve a problem through violence. In the case of the Holocaust it was a last resort and after the war West Germany was set back on its feet by America. Read this article for a good description of how this was done and how it was different than Iraq.
http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/si/may03/middleEast6.asp

To StarHawk,

Thank you so much for writing this piece. May the Goddess bless you and your attempts to bring an end to this destruction and killing. If only more people could see that “to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.” (The Art of War III 2) Very rarely will killing another man solve a problem, rather it will create more.

Blessed Be

terra gazelle- well im finding some things inconsistent- you say youd call the cops and let them take the man away- thats actually getting someone else to do something-

so what would you do if you saw a child being attacked- and couldnt call anyone- but had to act yourself?

this is the hard question- do you use force to defend a weaker creature?

im not being funny- i used to be a total pacifist- but i found it irresponsible to expect others to have to protect me- and sometimes ive been called to protect others- thats where the real discernment and responsibility comes in-

i read many of miss starhawks writings on the link- i find a disconnect between saying war was necessary in the case of the holocaust- and her exhorting pacifist means to people and then always going home to the safe side to sleep-

getting arrested in an american jail and waiting for friends to bail you out is not what i call laying ones life on the line-

writing is a wonderful thing- but theres a responsibility that if someone takes your advice- it wont end up making them defenseless-

i find pacifism often is an inability to face up to the truly heartwrenching decision that at some point we must actively defend the weak and innocent with our bodies- even our own bodies have a right over us- total pacifism can sometimes be a way to avoid making the hardest decisions- choosing not to decide is still a decision.
peace

Terra Gazelle: "I remember reading what your Jesus Christ said about those who live by the sword...I also remember what he said about when someone hits you on the cheek...I do not remember reading where he said to kill 600,000 innocents to topple a tyrant." I think it best we knot go there. Especially when the tyrannt was but a puppet gone bad.

Starhawk, my remarks above are NOT directed at you. Prejudiced remarks by some anger me readily and I will leave it at that unless they wish to pursue the matter further.

All the more powerful the display of Allah's Miracle, would you not agree? Or perhaps something has blinded you to Truth? Pray to God for Guidance and try not to darken with ignorance areas where God's Truth is sought.

THE WAR IN IRAQ IS A DISASTER ON EVERY LEVEL, MORAL, SPIRITUALLY, HUMANITARIAN, MILITARY. TRYING TO IMPROVE THE SITUATION BY SENDING IN MORE TROOPS IS LIKE TRYING TO SALVAGE THE TITANIC BY REVVING UP THE ENGINES AFTER IT’S HIT THE ICEBERG. A REVERSAL IS CALLED FOR, NOT MORE OF THE SAME, DESTRUCTIVE COURSE.
To continue with your analogy, reversal of engines will not halt the impending doom either.
BY ANY STANDARD, THE IRAQ WAR IS CLEARLY UNJUST. THE RATIONALE FOR INVASION WAS BASED ON MISINFORMATION OR OUTRIGHT LIES. THERE NEVER WERE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, NOR WAS THERE A LINK BETWEEN SADDAM HUSSEIN AND THE ATTACKS OF SEPTEMBER 11.
All of this is irrefutable fact, although I doubt Saddam felt a lot of remorse for the U.S. on 9/11 I can not really say with any certainty and since he is now deceased, I would have to say HAD I found myself in his place, I doubt that I would have either.
I am not amazed though perhaps I should be that so-called pagans have more soul than many I have encountered in my journey…many times I would include myself in that assessment. In the summary that you have sown are the seeds of the solution, understanding of the points of views of others without abandoning our own to start all over again.
May Everlasting Peace, Love, and Harmony of the Mother Always be within you as you find yourself within Her.
Bruce C.

TKH

What if his wife is sleeping with Dick, Tom and Harry who happen to be infected with HIV, and your children are exposed to the disease? The police can't do anything about it, but the dogs may! And that's justice for threatening the lives of the innocent children according to Western principles isn't it.

Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair do not and never will represent Christianity. They are far from Christians themselves. Please do not associate their political imperialism with Christian values.

TKH,

Did you intend to be rude or was it incidental?
Maybe you need to check and see where Starhawk has put her life on the line and for what.

http://www.starhawk.org/activism/activism-writings/activism-writings.html

I remember reading what your Jesus Christ said about those who live by the sword...I also remember what he said about when someone hits you on the cheek...I do not remember reading where he said to kill 600,000 innocents to topple a tyrant.

Some where in that book you quote it says, if I am not mistaken, something about moderation. But I could be wrong as I am a Pagan, a Wiccan to be exact. And unlike some who call themselves Christian, I tend to believe there is always a way perferable to killing my brothers and sisters.

If my neighbor was beating his wife I would call the cops and have him placed where he was unable to act in that way again...I would not kill him. If he was attacking her I would do all I coul;d to stop him...but I would not set out to kill.

Seems to me that your Jesus was not rude to the tax gathers or those that were called "the others." He respected them in such a way that the Pagan soldier that eased his thirst he promised would be in heaven with him... for his actions of good.

May the God you call to Bless you,
terra

Starhawk,
Greetings...

Yes the Lady is weeping...how can She not when Her chidren are suffering, the land is being watered by the blood of the young and the old...the innocent as well as the guilty.

You teach how to live harmlessly on the land, how to be an Earth activist...and to do it in peace and in strength. I think those who read your thoughts here should check out your web site
www.starhawk.org .

Thank you Starhawk, for what you have given me since I read Spiral Dance back in 1980 or there abouts, and for what you have done in New Orleans and in other places around the globe. http://www.starhawk.org/activism/activism-writings/activism-writings.html

Goddess Bless,
Terra

Dear Ms. Starhawk,

If your next door neighbor's husband was beating his wife and children everyday and you knew that he was capable of killing any one of them any day now, would you not be willing to take some risk in order to keep him from not only killing one of his own family but those also in the surrounding community?

The problem with all of our commentaries on "just war" is that most of us have never been in a situation in which we were forced to decide either to kill another to defend innocent life, or to lose one's own life to protect thousands more. Remember what Jesus Christ (the one and only Son of the one and only God) said about those who would lose their life for another's?

Which of our panelists are really charitable enough to lose their lives in order to save the millions who are suffering in the world daily?

It might actually be self-serving to write a comment (on a web site with international exposure) in support of your brothers and sisters; it might actually be heroic to put one's own life on the line to save them.

America and other friendly nations put their nation-lives on the line everyday for the world. Think about that.

Sincerely,
TKH

David, love your idea. There's a small problem. "A parchment wrtten in Muhammad's own hand" must be a forgery for Muhammad was illiterate. Good idea anyhow.

Now there is a technological possibility you will be interested in. Everything that has ever happened is captured naturally and held in a memory. We could actually be with Muhammad when the angels or whatever it was he got his info from paid the visit better than camera crews there at the time. Scientists have already broken into that memory. It will put absolute truth to all ancient documents by allowing us to be there at the time. Got faith? You don't need faith when you have truth.

For those who follow the "desert god" of the Biblos. Extrapolate for your own particular reformation...

Here is a suggestion for reforming Islam. The method has in fact helped "reform" Christianity at times. IT would be nice to simply do away with ideas of "reform" all together and simply reject all three (maybe more?) religions based on the "book" but monkees might spit nickels, too.
The type of "reform" is to find a long lost text having any number of interesting concepts... this one....is a mysterious, ancient parchment, found near the hills of Medina.
The parchment, the only one known at this point, is written by Mohammed's own hand. It will say...."yes there are doubts in my mind about this heaven thing, about this little biblos in my hand, as if this book might serve the desert people from every dry tribe in the dust. Allah, Yahweh, El, all the younger gods, perhaps you need to come to water, drink deep, set aside thoughts of the end and superior knowledge. When I do this with my wonderful, rich wife, there is peace in my home. Allah? Oh, you say that if I make peace, comfort, sharing, like the ancient ones, my path in heaven will be attended with how many virgins???"

Thanks again to "John & Sally" for a most provocative query and for a full quiver of (mostly) enlightening panelists.

Jane Doe "Starhawk" was not on my reading radar screen until the Post began it's On Faith series a few months back. Since then I've printed her remarks on a number of subjects and forwarded them on to souls that most often wear the badge or moniker of religious stalwart or simple faith follower.

Today I watched/listened to Bush and senators McCain, Kyle and that Conneticut "independent" all passionately endorse and sustain the White House proposal to "surge", increase the ranks of service men and women in Iraq. And the demeanor of all of them, when challenged on their view, was a most "factual" and "true" offering that American's that don't support the president are out of touch.

So with a slight of hand and the wave of a magic wand, I wished Starhawk had replaced the media talking heads and injected herself into the TV/media debate, taking on the president and the omniscient senators. Starhawk"s template of reality matched against that of the politicians all marching with grand panache into more maddening war.

The metaphor of crying children and graves is so correct and suggests a need to recognize the plight of pillaged and plundered Iraqi's that have lost hope, homes and families.
The Mideast is a muddy maelstrom that in the near future may
continue to rupture for a good long while. Still the imperial white house stallion should pay attention to the likes of Starhawk and chart a moral course free of hubris and delusion.

Next week, make it so Starhawk, shake some magic dust, cast a spell and then transform "Meet the Press" into a program the public at large will never forget - politicians knocked off their high horses and moral highground (by the real moralists, Starhawk.) Yes, let the spirit of Starkawk soar!

I wish, these "On Faith" panelist pieces had greater circulation and following, particularly among the panel of high priest Senators guiding this country. It is such a note worthy endeavor
and cause.

A salute, and hug to you "__?_" Starhawk, who ever you may be or are. Thanks for your salutory and forthright reminders on the query of just war.

I do not know much of the war, but I feel your words are true. I do love your final words, "The Goddess, the deep interconnectedness of all being, does not cheer on one team to kill and maim another. She is weeping."

I couldn't agree more. Thank you, Starhawk, for putting it so succinctly.

One of my favorite quotes is from Jeannette Rankin who I believe was the first women elected to Congress:

"You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake."