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War in the Heart of Alberta / PLEASE PASS FORWARD

Roland Charles Lamoureux

on behalf of

Willingdon Youth Development and Treatment Centre

War in the Heart of Alberta

Our Streets Of Gold
Are Lined With Drugs exchanging hands in our province through the drug trade. There isn’t a green zone anywhere. From our smallest towns to our largest cities, we are being bombarded on every flank and our children are the major casualties.
Organized crime has decided they want a piece of the Alberta Advantage and are prepared to do what it takes to retain their declared share. For this article they are not worthy of dishonorable mention and shall remain nameless. Suffice to say that the who’s who of the underworld runs everything from bars, strip clubs, massage parlors, escort agencies, and gangs. Each one of these activities draws in millions of dollars worth of drug money. That is the value added product; the big money maker.
If we take your blinders off we’ll see that every mall and its parking lot is an outlet for the distribution of drugs. The gun battles have already started at the OK corral. Will we soon see out and out warfare? People are being gunned down right on our streets. Edmonton now has two capital distinctions: that of the provincial capital and the national murder capital of Canada. The rest of the province is not far behind. Where the head goes the tail is sure to follow.
Alberta children are caught in the cross fire of this illicit action. As we go about our normal everyday fast paced lives, we are spending less and less time seeing to our children’s needs while we cultivate an incessant thirst for MORE. True, other factors abide here, but the basic premise is the same and it culminates in having less time for our children.
Who is your child interacting with? Are there gang members in their entourage? Is your Child a gang member? Likely not but chances are that your child knows of someone who knows a gang member, guilt by association. This is how drugs filter down to our families. When we do not have the time to instill a sense of security and provide activities for accomplishments that promote self worth and self-esteem, our children suffer. If this is not true why is it that one in five North American families is dealing with one type of addiction or another. Granted, there are several factors that come into consideration but this is the basis of the beast.
Crystal meth, crack cocaine, and other drugs permeate the essence of our society; Our Children. Crystal meth is now the number one drug in North America. Needless to say why; because it is cheap and easily distributed (pushed) on our children (Alberta is one of the top North American markets).

There’s the WAR!

Many of our children have already been seduced and are taking part in a living hell while their families suffer right along side them. Across Alberta, families are being put through this despicable torture. For these families an intervention is being assembled. People who know all too well what horrors lie in this drug infested land. They have lived and worked with children’s addictions for years. These qualified, highly educated, and trained individuals are ready to commit their lives to cleaning up the lives of children and reuniting them with their families. A building has been secured and renovated; a 40-bed facility, programming developed, staff is in place, and a licensing agreement was obtained with the Government of Alberta. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in program expenses are at the ready.
Good News; now the challenge begins for this non-profit organization. They are committed to positively impacting on Alberta’s children and their families by reclaiming our children’s lives from the drug world. After an interview with a local TV station Willingdon received over 400 calls from distraught parents desperately seeking help for their children’s drug addictions. While being far from able to fully address such a pervasive problem, with your support we can begin to make a difference in Alberta’s family life.
Your financial assistance would be graciously accepted.

Thank you for your wonderful loving kindness!

Willingdon Youth Development And Treatment Centre
HEAD OFFICE
DWAIN SAUNDERS
9861 - 84 AVE
EDMONTON, ALBERTA
CANADA T6E 2G1
(780) 433 – 0725, (780) 446 -1831
Email: vision7@shaw.ca
www.wydtc.com

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salaams

To Canyon:
This is a response to your post of 20th november, 7:25 AM:
I think you are a typical representative of the anglo-american society. you are placing your christianity(or maybe puritanity) upon any other religion and you believe in a heaven or hell after death, without perceiving the heaven or hell on our earth. I mean this is how chistianity or Islam or Judaism(populistic, monotheistic, abrahamistic religions)function: with paradoxes in order to sweep away the existing reality surrounding us.Except the imagination of a reward or a punishment after death, there are in these religions many other paradoxes e.g. in Islam there is the expression of "Djihad" which means holy or just war, which ironically is being practiced massively by so called christians against the muslims.
I can only recommend:Do not feel superior, because we are all equal before God and do know that these horrible things like torture, murder et cetera do exist in our world. But these things are carried out by nihilistic non-believers, who misuse every belief or religion to increase power and simultanously to discredit the concerned religion in order to breed more nihilistic monsters.They do this because they don't understand the real meaning of death. Those who carry a gun and kill, need the gun to compensate their tiny soul.And their souls are tiny, because they only think monetarily.

And one more thing: Please notice the important difference between religion and spirituality. Religion means briefly: "The Word of God spoken through a Prophet", but spirituality means: " to really act humane and try to be in total agreement with the divine voice inside(which should exist in every spiritual human being)".And please do know that nowadays there are many Prophets walking around on our planet, they just don't claim to be prophets and would like to be called poets. So please don't make a hype out of one(Jesus, Mohammad,Moses) in order to neglect the others and please let"MOTHER NATURE" heal you.

PEACE

canyon, i can overlook your prideful, arrogant and unswerving self-righteousness, but i can't stomach your hateful attitude toward jews and muslims. you claim that "evolution" was responsible for the deaths of Jews in the Holocaust (by "evolution" I assume you mean the nastier strains of social Darwinism i.e., theories of eugenics and racial superiority)...and yet here you are making sweeping claims that jews "have hardened their hearts to God" and that muslims "love death" (Posted November 20, 2006 7:25 AM). to my mind, that sort of attitude is what leads to genocide and there is no excuse for it. I'd like to believe your claim that you love humanity *so much* that you want to save us all from eternal torment, but that's not really backed up by your choice of rhetoric. Nice try, though.

Great discussion. I'm reminded of a line in a song by Walela, which seems to be the very essence of "democracy" -
"Let every voice be heard."

...and another little poem -

"There's so much good in the worst of us
And so much bad in the best of us
That it ill behooves any of us
To find fault with the rest of us."

That said, I do think it's important to discuss the merits of various religions. I do believe some are better than others, based on the effects they have on society & the people who believe in them. Personally, I think Nichiren Buddhism is the most effective way to develope wisdom, compassion & happiness. But Paganism is *so* beautiful.

Dear Ravenssong,

I myself am stuck in the same dilemma(maybe it is my nature and I should accept it) not being an empiricist at all. But I love reading scientific books, especially those about the human mind. One of these books, which helped me a lot to understand the scientific/rational way of thinking is called "Maps Of The Mind". One of these Maps divides the mankind in convergers and divergers, which means the converger is the scientist, who tries to capture by focussing and the diverger is the artist or the mystic, whose strength lies in the ramification, that means spreading out the mind like branches of a tree.
Although I think both ways are necessary, otherwise such beautiful dialogues couldn't nourish our society. I think Starhawk is right by saying, that diversity is an important characteristic of the Nature, which I rather love to call "Gaia". Speaking of Gaia, there is a scientist, a geophysician called James Lovelock, who has enunciated the Gaia-Theory, which shortly has the following message: Our Planet is a living superorganism and it acts intelligent(what is inteligence?). For example it keeps the level of oxygen always at 21%, despite our pollution by driving cars and such. Everything would burn if the oxygen-percentage rises just by one percent.

To Canyon shearer: thank you for the nice poem. I was awarded with wings after having understood that humans in the first century BC have had the same feelings and thoughts as humans from the 21st century.

To all the participants on this bulletin board:
Please do know that the mechanims or the functionalities of the human mind differ from each other, but do know that more and more scientists are accepting "belief" without having the definite "proof" of god or such. A good example would be a book called "The Tao of Physics" written by Fritjof Capra.
One can't describe the "Psyche" which is a terminus in the field of humanities with the same semantic as in the domain of science. I discovered that after having philosophied about God(which is never in vain), I should keep easy, settled and quiet in order to FEEL God/Tao.

Hello, Starhawk! I'm glad to see the updates on your website (which is how I found this blog), and I've missed seeing you here in Seattle!

I keep wishing I could be dual-faith (as some folks claim to be). I find elements of Paganism and Universalism very appealing, and am researching and experiencing pre-Christian festivals (as well as the Pagan roots of Christian holidays) with a view toward celebrating many of them; and yet, I don't really want to reject Jesus wholesale. There are just a number of core doctrines of Christianity that I have never liked; it's only been in the past few years that I've had the guts to come out and say so...

Anyway, welcome to the blogosphere!

I was asking myself all the time what buged me most about canyons views.
His fire and brimstone rethoric? - unpleasant but not unexpected.
His insincerity by humbling himself bevore his god while repeating that he alone knows the truth, among everybody on the board? - annoying but he´s unaware of it and therfore in a technical sense not guilty.
His inability to regard other propositions as true for the arguments sake and follow them through? - tiresome and energyconsuming, yet the arguments brought up becaus of him although not by him were valueable and I benefited greatly.
All that forgiveable, in a sense.

Then I remembered Feuerbachs remark on overzealous Christians:

They are debasing men to elevate god.

A loathsome concept. It isn´t god who is doing that, they do. In their vain effort to outfaith everybody else they know no bounds
and no recourse. Using their fellow human being as stepping stone to reach for god.
How could any truth be found in there, let alone the truth?
And he claims he is not proud?

Dear Anonymous, Please do not feel that I am ignoring you, I've thought on your reply for some time now, and have decided that it is nearly impossible to share the truth with the post-modern movement. With that said, I feel there is very little either of us could learn from the other.

Dear eRis, I realize you did not reply to me, but I would like to say that you presented your opinion very well. I still disagree completely, as does the Bible, but you presented your opinion with clarity and thoughtfullness.

The thing that I liked the most, which I agree absolutely with was, "When they are truly in the world & can see divinty in EVERYTHING including themselves." In Christianity we call that the "Fingerprint of God."

What convinces me I am right is the overwhelming evidence for it. I used to be pridefilled and occasionally still feel that pride slipping back in. I am not proud that I was smart enough to find Christianity, I am astonished that God would choose to save someone so lowly as myself in order to use me for His purposes.

Again, excellent post, keep up the active thinking and good luck in where it takes you.

Human Being, your poem reminded me of a poem by Cyril from the 1st Century BC, written in Jeruselem in Greek, though it translated quite well:

-The dragon sits by the side of the road,-
-watching those who pass.-
-Beware lest he devour you.-
-We go to the Father of Souls,-
-but it is necessary to pass by the dragon.-

Dear Amber, with all due respect, perhaps I do not understand your spiritual path. I do not think that is a fault of mine, for when religions follow personal beliefs and feelings, it is beyond impossible to know all of them. I once heard of this type of religion as a coloring book religion, and I felt that was very fitting.

The true question is what is at the end of that path? It doesn't matter what you believe is at the end, imagine this:

A train leaves New York for Chicago late one evening.
A woman calls an attendant and asks, "What time will we arrive in Paris?"
Confused, the attendant informs the woman that the train will arrive in Chicago at 1 am.
The woman gets aggitated, "I believe this train is headed for Paris, what time will we arrive?"
The attendant politely replies, "I'm sorry ma'am, but this train goes to Chicago."
A fellow across the isle says, "Excuse me sir, but she really, truly, believes we're going to Paris, if she believes, then I believe we're going to Paris also."
The Attendant, visibly flustered by now tries to rationalise, "I know this train is going to Chicago, besides, there are no train tracks to Paris, it's across the Ocean!"
The man says, "Oh yeah? Well you're paid to believe we're going to Chicago, how can we trust you!?!?"
The Attendant pulls out a schedule which has a map on it, "Here, look here, the red line goes to Chicago and arrives at 1am!"
The woman scoffs, "I've read that map, it says we're going to Paris!"
The man laughs, "You honestly believe that map? Don't you know it was written by men, not the train!"
"Fine," says the Attendant, "lets just see where we end up."

You can believe and rationalize anything you want, it doesn't make it true, only the truth makes it true.

Three brief observations:

1. I recall from a hebrew scriptures class that the word translated as "fear" would have been more accurately rendered as "awe." Thus the beginning of wisdom is awe of the mystery...about which we can have no empirical proof, but only poetry and desire. That makes much more spiritual sense to me than the erroneous translation.

2. IF Canyon's characterization of his/her god is accurate (which I do not believe on the basis of my own experience), why would anyone give worship to an entity of such vicious nature? To worship means "ascribe worth to." If such a personality walked around as a human being, s/he would be regarded a dangerous sociopath and removed from society. Happily, I do not believe the Mystery is such a being.

3. It seems to me, that the very best religion for each person is the one that most enables them to become the fullest, best expression of themselves. I define fullest and best as most completely enacting our capacity for creativity, compassion, service and delight. Inasmuch as each of us is wondrously unique, how on earth could one religion be sufficient? Our relationships with the holy and with each other are unique. It isn't necessary---or possible---to fully understand each other, yet the Big Love manages to flourish anyway. With our intention and collaboration, at any rate.

Brighde

Amber K-

Thank you. Lovely words & a beautiful reminder of why I chose my path as well.

Human Being-

I love the poem- wish I spoke/read German- I wonder what it loses in translation.

I like enjoy thinking about those two perspectives- and how the greatest joys in life come from simply being & remembering to swallow...

I'm not certain that there is a lot more depth in the poem though. I think that your comments are as complicated as it gets... Truth often lives best in simplicity?

Perhaps a conversation about the merits of both ways of living/viewing the world? Since I mostly live my life in an experiential mode it is difficult for me to discuss the merits of empiricism- but I would love to hear some one else wax eleqount on the poetry of empirical truth- or something like that.

Bright Blessings from the heart of Dischordia,

eRis Ravenssong

eRis Ravenssong, you said it beautifully. We need to decide how we see the world and the universe... as an evil place that is the threshhold to a better existence beyond death, or as something basically wonderful and good in itself.
Now there is tons of evidence for either side. It's a universe full of way too much input for us to access, process, and understand it all.
So we pick and choose what we will focus on--we create our own reality, either from trees and love and butterflies, or from sorrow and disease and pain, or some mix of the "good" and the "evil" stuff that's around us.
For myself, I cannot do just the bunnies and rainbows, white light thing--too much pain and difficulty on the path. But neither am I willing to label it all as Satan's domain and nasty... there's so much beauty and goodness around me.
Which is part of the reason I'm Wiccan. Wicca acknowledges both the light and the darkness as part of the whole, and gives me a framework to work on understanding the world. It feels real to me.
And my wish for every person is that you find the path that brings YOU joy and harms no one. Blessed be, Amber K, Priestess of Wicca

P.S. -- Canyon Shearer, there is much I could say, but some of it would come from irritation or exasperation. So let me confine it to this: you do not understand my spiritual path. I hope you can find joy in yours without bugging the rest of us.

Hi,
the following poem is written by a man with the pen name "Gaia`s Child". It is originally written in german, but I tried to translate.

"The empiricist and the mystic"

"My joyous palate can`t have enough of this sweet delicious life. The Restaurant is at the end of the sorrow street. Those who arrive, will enjoy.
But what are these `non-believers` claiming for a proof? The proof was in my mouth and I decided to swallow. Me and you are the proof positive.

The big difference between an empiricist and a mystic is that the empiricist always `seeks´ after a proof, but the mystic `finds´ himself constantly."

Dear Seekers and Dear Finders,
I would love to have a deeper look at this poem with you.
thanks

For the debate about Deity higher up in the posts: Does absence of evidence mean evidence of absence?

I reccommend taking the philosophy quiz at this link: http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/god.htm
This quiz says whether your beliefs are logical and consitent within themselves, not according to society. Read the FAQ when you finish the quiz, it has some interesting points that talk about some of the points being discussed in the posts. You might be interested in other quizes on the site, such as the one on morality. None of them judge according to society, just according to your own consistency.

I agree with Ravenssong that fear is the primary motivator for atrocities, not to do good. Let's say you're afraid of going to jail, and that's the reason you don't steal. What happens if you learn that you won't get caught, or you won't go to jail even if you get caught? Then you'll steal. But if you recognize that stealing is bad for society because it creates an atmosphere of suspicion where people don't trust one another, causing society to fall apart, then you won't steal even if you know you won't get caught.

Responding to Mac, and agreeing with Keahi, diversity is not the cause of problems, it's the lack of tolerance that causes problems.

Jeffrey, I too would love to hear Starhawks response to your comment. It is something I struggle with as well. How can a person be accepting and tolerant of all beliefs when there are beliefs out there that advocate atrocities?

I personally draw this line: everyone should be free to do/say/believe whatever they want, as long as it does not prevent anyone else from doing the same.

I am not really addressing this to Canyon although it is in response to his/her last rant. (not an insult- I believe that ranting is good for the soul & plan to have a good rant myself)

So- I am a bit one track these days. I am examining & dealing with fear a lot & trying to come to a conclusion as to what fear really is. The response I received indicated that my definition of this slippery word is significantly different from Canyon's & most likely different from many others.

I would argue that it is not fear that keeps us from doing remarkably stupid things - like poking tigers in the eye, speeding in residential neighborhoods, jumping out of windows. It is respect & understanding for reality as it is.

Example: I like snakes. I find them fascinating & lovely. I do not, even when I recognise the species/breed/danger level of a snake- I do not go picking up wild snakes. Why? Because I respect that the nature of a snake is to protect itself. I know this from personal experience, from anecdotal experience & from the experiences of researchers. Snakes will bite to defend themselves. It will either hurt a lot or kill you. You don't pick wild snakes up.

You can follow this logic with all of the other expamples Canyon gave & many other physical survival traits we humans have. In many Native American traditions there are stories about what happens to people who ignore the nature of reality- when people stop respecting & even loving the nature of the world around them- they get hurt. These reactions are not based on fear- they are based on being in concert with the natural world.

Fear? to me fear is that thing that grabs a soldier in the middle of a war zone & makes him/her start shooting- at anything that moves even unarmed women & children. Here logic & fear work together to grab the mind & twist it. This is the evil that exists in the human heart. Fear of the unknown allows us to stop caring about the consequences. We are not- in these cases- in concert with the natural world.

Canyon blames evolution for the Holocaust- there are a large number of things wrong with this statement, but I'll just mention this. It was not a belief in anyone's superiority that caused neighbors to turn in their long time friends to death camps. It was not a belief in cleansing that motivated 90% of the men responsible for murdering those people- it was fear of 2 things- fear that the people who were 'different' would destroy them & fear that if they stood up everyone would then fear them. They were given tools to rationalise their fears & there were evil humans so twisted by their own fears & pain that they fed off of this..

This has occured throughout history in all religions and in all "isms"- Christianity in various forms has been in 'charge' for a very long time & so at this point they are responsible for the majority of deaths- but just by default.

Now, that I've moved off my point in such a way as to sew confusion (even to myself)... I would like to say one last thing in this rant. The biggest 'issue' I find w/ Canyon's rants and conversion techniques is this- I do not believe -for all the evil done by humankind- that we are evil. I believe in the basic goodness of humans when they act in concert with the world around them- When they are truly in the world & can see divinty in EVERYTHING including themselves. I also believe that we are at a crossroads- there is a duality between those who insist in the intrinsic evil of this world & all the creatures on it & can find salvation only in a world they cannot know until they are dead. And those who believe that life is itself divine. A crossroads where -as a race- we can decide that the forces that shape life are glorious & beautiful or that life itself was a test & that the earth does not matter, only what we find in death matters... between Death & the concept of Namaste

Perhaps it is your own pride that convinces you of your rightness, Canyon?

In my case I have faith in the grand beauty of this world & my Divine Creators. I don't believe that I'm 'right' but I don't need to be 'right'- I just need to act in accordance with my beliefs & love the world, keep it clean & treat all life with respect. And I am proud- but I do not see myseld as motivated only by pride. especially not in my spritituality.

I respect your need to try & convert- however I found large parts of your last post condescending & pride filled on your end... most pagans do not ask to win the lottery (most I know anyway) they are spirtual seekers who are trying to improve the lives of all - My most frequent prayer is for the strength to be patient with those I disagree with. And for the strength to face my fears.

My Goddess usually anwers my prayers, but she demands a lot from me. Mine is not an 'easy' path & the belief that somehow my spiritual path is simple & easy does demonstrate a significant ignorance on your part of other peoples beliefs.

Well- I've been rambling & ranting. I will attempt to avoid any further long winded posts... I guess I was riled up.

Love, light, & laughter,

eRis Ravenssong

Lilith, Akasha,

May I say well said! I personally am proud to say that I do not try and cram my divine into a pre-packaged spirituality to hand out to strangers like some creep in a van "hey - I've got candy" and Canyon that's exactly what you sound like "hey lookie- nice yummy candy...." and you wonder why people are throwing up their hands around you? It isn't praise- it's exasperation. I like many fellow pagans come from a Christian background and I know exactly where you are coming from and I also know that this is exactly why you "hmmm" and "that's an interesting point..." to all these comments just waiting to twist it into a "how can I save you poor lost souls"
Well let me say to you my soul is not lost, so too it does not belong to 'GOD' or 'SATAN' or any other 'divine being' it is a part of me and also everything around it. Your pathetic attempts to save my soul are wasted as it is where it is and exists beyond 'heaven' and 'hell'
As for your reference to getting to heaven and being all alone- please realize that your idea of heaven may be hell to someone else.
My intention is not to offend or be rude I just give myself a headache thinking about all the times I spouted the same dogma as Canyon before I took time to look beyond the dogma and seach for the truth on my own. I really do believe that she thinks she is doing the right thing but it is precisely the obstacle we must overcome if people are to be united in purpose regardless of religion. How can I work in comfort beside someone I am constantly having to endure remarks like "you don't have to believe in him because he believes in YOU!"
I guess all I can do is roll my eyes and seek out intelligent conversation elsewhere. It is a pity because Canyon seems witty and genuinely caring. Unfortunately were she at all receptive to hearing about other beliefs she may begin to question her own and that is obviously a big no-no for any mass marketed religion or "monopoly on truth"

My apologies for not replying sooner;

Morbious, the point you make that 'most' people have heard the message I am preaching is why I am here, most people HAVE NOT. They have heard a squishy, secularized, non-Biblical message, which is not only unacceptable, but repulsive. Having open-air preached and shared my faith one-to-one, I have yet to meet a non-Christian and even many 'christians' who can effectively oralize the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The full truth is that without Repentance and Trust there is no Saving Grace; if you fail to believe that Jesus is the only way, you have made up your own god and trusting in any random god will not get you to Heaven.

You are right that Christianity shares much with Judaism...that's because they're the same religion under different covenants. Jews (Pharisees mostly) today have hardened their hearts against their God and will not see the Kingdom of Heaven. Jews (Sadducees amongst others) realize full well that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and are saved through Him. The New Testament is a mirror image of the Old Testament; the minor difference is that the Messiah is named in the New Testament.

I would like to see the statistics for your claim that Christianity is responsible for more deaths than any other. Evolution in Germany killed 11 Million, Atheism in Russia killed 50 Million, but the truth is that 10 out of 10 die, and you have to die of something, so it is not how you die that’s important, but what happens afterwards. You could die tomorrow of the most random thing in the world, a meteorite could hit your car while driving, it's in your best interest to get yourself right with God today, before it's too late.

JayJen, you and I never shared the same idea of Christianity. If you believe Hell is there to torture, you are mistaken. Hell is a creation of God because God is perfectly Just, and Justice Requires Punishment. Hell is not the opposite of Jesus Christ, just the same as gravity is not the opposite of a parachute. I would suggest that you don't have faith in the parachute if you're not willing to tell others of its saving-nature, even when they are holding onto anvils, homemade wings, or jumping naked. Wouldn't you tell those people they have put their faith in the wrong thing if they were to jump out of an airplane?

Lilith, my God's name is Jesus Christ, and He is your God too, whether or not you accept that, He is the God of all the Universe. Of course you would never accept Him, because you are pride-filled and feel that the gods you have created and worshipped are somehow better than God, the Creator. Your gods are powerless, your gods are for your own personal gain, your gods are comfortable to you because they mirror your life, which means you have tried to elevate yourself into godhood, which is a very serious sin. When you have prayed to these gods, what have you prayed? "Forgive me Isis, for I have sinned against you, I have fallen short of your glory, I am unfit to be in your presence." Or, have you prayed to win the lottery, to have a good life, or for the entire world to accept things the way you have?

It is easy to make up gods, because when we make them up, they are unthreatening, comfortable gods who will overlook your gravest transgressions. The only problem with these gods, is that they will be no-where to be found when you stand before the Judgment Throne of the Living God.

When I pray God, I ask forgiveness for my own transgressions, for those of the world, that the love of God be showered upon all the people that would not reject it. This God, which saved the wicked human heart from Hell by taking the punishment Himself, even though we could do nothing for Him, that is Love. Because He has given so much for me, I can give everything to Him.

Eleri, No other religion is preaching here because they are unsure of their entry into Heaven. No Muslim (except the Martyr) knows they will have entry into Heaven, and no Muslim knows they will remain in Heaven. Those religions are unsure of the truth and therefore see no reason to proselytize. Except Muslims, who love death, but it's hard to stick someone with a sword or blow them up over the internet.

Nheduanna, we are not playing a game of Telephone here, we have the inspired, true, Word of God in which to know what God expects of us, how we have failed, and what our punishment is. Not only that, but God has also revealed to us the only way in which we may be saved from that punishment.

FSC, thank you for the civil responses. I am definitely interested in stopping wars/killing, poverty, starvation, and plaque, and do my best to help in those arenas. Christians know, as psychologists are only now learning, that these things are inevitable. The wicked heart of man will ensure that war and murder occurs until the Rapture; that plaque is a result of sin, and while there is sin there will be plaque; that poverty is a result of the human condition. Look at countries like the UAE and Qatar, two of the wealthiest nations in the world because of their small populations and huge natural gas reserves. Yet a fraction of the populace is wealthy beyond imagination, and the cities of Dubai and Doha are overrun with slums. For this, and I apologize, I am not very helpful in finding a compromise between religions on how to solve these issues. On the contrary, I am only able to share the overwhelming love of God in the presence of the hatred and death of man.

Ravenssong, I like your opinion, and I wish that it were truer than the opposite. The fear of God, when misplaced, is dangerous, as in the examples you posted. But, when the fear of God is absent, things like Genocide, Mass Murder, Child Pornography, Rape, Adultery, Fornication, Sodomy, Theft, and the like occur and run rampant.

I've broken all of the 10-Commandments in spirit if not in practice, and I know that God should have squashed me under His thumb, the fact that His overwhelming patience, long-suffering, and grace have abounded so long is beyond comprehension to me. It's like if you were locked in a cage with a tiger and continually poked it in the eye with a stick, the fear of the tiger would tell you stop poking it in the eye, because at any moment it may lose patience with you and the end result is not pretty. The fear of God drives the same repentance to stop proverbially poking Him in the eye.

A healthy fear is what keeps humans alive, when you drive, the fear of crashing keeps your speed at a reasonable level, the fear of gravity keeps you from jumping out of a five-story window, the fear of disease causes you to wash your hands. A healthy and well-developed fear of God keeps people honest, makes them accountable, and creates for a more utopian society.

Anyways, I fear that this has gotten too long. Again, my apologies for being unwilling and unable to compromise, but at the least, I hope you understand where I am coming from.

All the best,
Canyon

Merry Meet,
Being Wiccan, To believe in The Gods And Goddess' is a matter of faith...as in any religion.
I can feel the magick of the Goddess' through the very earth. I can feel it in her breath...the wind...and in the water we drink, the flowers that bloom, the herbs that grow...The Goddess' ie Gaia..is Mother to us all.

Sorry to move the conversation backwards but I find a phrase from Canyon ringing in my head & no one else seems to be talking about it or effected by it...the quote is

"The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God."

I would like to suggest that fear is actually the source of intolerance rather that being a connection to the divine.
I do not mean this as an attack on Canyon- I would even say that he/she is at least naming their motivation as fear; which is more honest (but not less destructive) than most humans.

As a solution to intolerance I believe one of the first steps is to move past or through our fears - and perhaps begin to believe that
"the beginning of wisdom is the love of God/Goddess"

It is fear of god that motivates many to kill or mutilate their neighbors- it is fear of eternal damnation that motivates people to steal babies from good mothers (for the childs 'good' of course)- it is fear of their own feelings that motivates people to force others to repress or hide their true selves- It is fear of the sexual power of life inherent in women that motivates female genital mutilation- Fear of being different that motivates male genital mutilation (maybe, I'm not sure what else motivates circumcision in non-jewish non-muslim households).

Fear leads to anger- anger leads to hate- and we all know what happens then... black masks, breathing problems, & lots of dead extras...

with love, light, & laughter.

eRis Ravenssong

Thanks, FSC.
"Ensure respectful dialog" sounds like not only what this forum needs, but the world at large. Sounds simple, but it's the sort of thing people have probably written masters' theses on.
I'd like to hear suggestions.
Someone mentioned "shared values," such as respect for life, dignity & compassion, learning... Of course, it's debatable what these mean to different people in widely diverse circumstances. Maybe "respectful dialog" is the relevant value here.
Anyway, I was struck by the use of the use of the phrase "used tampons" to indicate something disgusting. This is where the Goddess steps up and says, "Excuse me..." The idea of menstrual blood being unclean is patriarchal & outmoded. A woman's menstrual blood might be inconvenient, but it's entirely honorable.

Feedback & Questions

re: Morbious Le Noir 061118: 0317h reply to Canyon. I note you have offered a number of personal follow-up suggestions to Canyon with respect to how her/his communications might be received by others. I could be wrong here of course, but I assume this was intended to facilitate more respectful and thoughtful dialogue. (And just btw, in my view, Canyon’s response to your initial feedback reflected an honest and more respectful tone and indicated s/he took it to heart.) If I’m correct in assuming that your aim was to facilitate more respectful/thoughtful dialogue, I wonder how you see this served by the kind of personal ‘charges’ you made (“ridiculous... absurd and clownish”, and “ an egotistical busybody”). In my experience, such statements/attacks are disabling for the most part (individually and collectively) and are best left absent from discussions that are intended to be respectful and to (potentially) enable learning, understanding and cooperation. That is of course just my point of view but perhaps you’ll find it worth consideration.

And all this brings me to another __question for consideration__. Since we do have diversity of beliefs and we apparently do want to engage in dialogue, it is may be useful to have specify some ‘conditions’ or have some ‘agreements’ about how that might best proceed productively. What kinds of things might be want to have in place to facilitate/ensure respectful dialogue, openness, and feelings of safety, and to enable learning/understanding and, possibly, shared action?

(Yeah, I know, I keep focussing on how we can come together across our differences rather than on the differences themselves. But it looks like there might be at least a few out there who’d like to pursue that focus, yes? )

FSC

Canyon (re: Post 061117, 1922h)

It sounds to me like you have great concern “that any should perish” and that the positive service you are motivated to do by your beliefs/religion is focussed on (a) informing/warning people and (b) a desire to reflect well on your God. With regard to the latter, I’d be interested in what kinds of positive service you are therefore motivated to engage. And in thinking about that, I wonder how this service of yours might be similar to and or can be collaborative with those with other belief systems who might also be seeking to stop/prevent killing/wars, hate & injury of particular groups (religious, ethnic, sexual orientation, etc). It seems to me there may perhaps be potential for a coming together in collective service. What do you think?

FSC
PS (re: your post 061117:2123h) I appreciated your thanks to Morbious Le Noir for his feedback and the ways in which you both acknowledged the “fault” side of how your passionate belief may come across and your ongoing effort to “tone it down” as was reflected in the post itself. Good on ya and and prayers back at cha..

Jesus would weep at the actions and words of so many of his followers. Like in a game of "whisper," most of the time the last person to receive the message hears something totally different than what the first person whispered.

As a pagan, I honor the Divine in me, you, everything. As citizens of the Earth, we're a diverse group. It makes sense that the Divine has so many faces. How beautiful!

How true, Eleri, Godma.

Christians: you could potentially change the world by practising what christ taught. Why not save your breath and WOW us all with your wonderful deeds?

But not these ones, from the Bible: selling daughters into slavery (Exodus 21:7) Believing that slavery is bad unless we buy slaves from other nations(run, Canadians, run!)(Lev.25:44) There are more such gems...beware if you are wearing anything made of mixed fibres. lev.24.10:16).
A god to fear indeed! (Along with those who sanction beating your wife if she doesn't obey, or cutting off womens genitals to make women 'clean', or not allowing a menstruating woman in the kitchen - although it's what makes god like her the rest of the month).

WHERE, I ASK YOU, IS THE LOVE, HERE?
Clean up your own back yards.

There is an amazing statement in the Wiccan 'Charge of the Goddess':"...all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals."

That's more like it. Strike up the band, bring out the chocolate cake! Goddess bless you all!

Why does it not supprise me that here, where a pagan opens a dialogue on faith and belief, Christans must jump in and start preaching.

Are there Muslims preaching here? Jews? Hindus? Anyone else intruding on a discussion to insist they know the One Right Answer? No.

Only modern Christianity (oh so far removed from the true teachings of Jesus) feels they have the right, and the obligation, to browbeat, harass and cajole people into thinking like they do.

Canyon wrote: "godma, my post was in responce to you saying that being born in a Christian area will make you a Christian, I just wanted to point out that no-one is born a Christian"

I agree with you that no-one is "born a Christian". Strictly speaking, everyone is born an "agnostic atheist" (not knowing + not believing in deities).

My point was simply that there is a strong correlation between where people live and what religion they end up following. This fact itself seems uncontroversial and undeniable, but it does indicate the likelihood that if you were born in Tibet, you'd probably (though not certainly) be a Buddhist instead of a Christian. Or, if your parents were Mormon, you'd probably be a Mormon too. I think the reason for this is simple - that most people learn their religion from the culture around them, not from some special ability to be more correct than most other people on the planet. When someone "sees the light", they are really seeing the light through the thick filter of their culture, if they see the light at all. I'm sure lots of people confuse the filter for the light.

Well done Washington Post, giving a space for this discussion and for looking outside the conventional patriarchal faiths for worthy comment in your articles.

A core experience of christianity in my family is the story of my grandmother having her children forcibly taken away so they could have 'a good christian upbringing' in the nearby christian mission, when her British husband died. She was Sikkimese (now part of India) and presumably of buddhist/animist faith. My aunt,the eldest, still remembers her screaming; it has disturbed her all her life. Like all her siblings but one, theyhave no time for christianity. My father, second youngest of the 5 children, told me on many occasions that in the orphanage 'they beat god into me so bloody hatd, they beat him out the other side again!'I have never met my grandmother, and I find the actions of these christians repellent.

My maternal grandparents were gentle christiams; taught me how Jesus looked after little children, taught kindness, that he was a gardener and carpenter like my grandfather. I had time for this Jesus, still do.

My path welcomes any faith, any individual who does their best to create a life where love has significant.It's not easy at times, being constantly aware of the heart, drawing one's awareness into every deed - 'how does this serve love'? But when I do take stock, when I look at how I have dealt with hard times, or injustice, or personal pain, it's the times I chose the path of the heart that have made a healing, wonderful difference in my life. The times I have chosen rage, revenge, arrogance - ugh. What a twit.

I have called Jesus into a circle alongside Brigid, Isis, Cerridwen (guess that makes me a pagan) which is beautiful; I have knelt to pray in churches of several sects,(oh, now i'm a christian) chanted hare krishna with bliss in my heart,(a hindu?) celebrated at jewish weddings and barmitzvahs.(!) You know what the holiest things are? Staying up all night comforting a sick child. Doing another load of laundry for a friend with three kids and her husband just left. Taking a casserole to a neighbour who is moving house.Marching for peace. Growing organic, despite the extra effort. Speaking up for a friend when someone bad-mouths her. And so on.

My heart aches for people in iraq who have lost their children, who have no water for laundry, whose neighbours are in the rubble, who have no peace, whose soil will not be organic for generations, now.

My heart aches still for my grandmother in sikkim, and all those like her.

Canyon Shearer, you of all people in this debate make my heart sink.What did you say the name of your god is? Sounds like someone I would never call into a circle, never kneel to, whose name i would never sing. By your examples, why does he have such a limited capacity to love? How do you serve such a being?

I think some of those who posted comments missed a big point in Starhawks response. Diversity is good thing. And being in a diverse society demands that we learn to respect others as human beings, regardless of our own personal thoughts as to others' beliefs. The references to sectarian violence in Iraq shows and extreme version of what can happen when that mutual respect and tolerance is lacking.

Besides, what religion would we choose for our monoculture? Which one "true" religious path would we force people upon? If we pick *your* path, it may force your neighbor to live a lie. If we choose your neighbor's path, you may feel persecuted.

What many folks need to realize is that spirituality is a deeply personal issue. Even members of the same congregation may have different opinions on details. Rather than fighting over what label our spritiual beliefs are given, we should focus on the common desire to do good, share love, show compassion....

Canyon Shearer,

I, like many here grew up with your idea of Christianity. In the end I simply could not reconcile the idea of a loving God and a God who would create beings only to torture them for eternity if they weren't lucky enough to have been born in a Christian family. I couldn't see telling someone born Jewish, or Muslim to abandon every belief that they were taught by their parent's and elders in favor of mine.

Could I look into their hearts and minds and declare that their faith was less to them than mine was to me? That their peace and connection to their God was less genuine than mine? That God somehow ignored them because I didn't understand their faith, or God for whatever reason couldn't or wouldn't. No I couldn't. And if I couldn't do that, then what right did I have to wrench them away from their beliefs?

I must say that if I truly believed that the only way that I could follow Christ was in your form of Christianity I would not. I cannot, and believe me I tried. And I find it difficult to believe that many people are converted by the threat of hell and damnation. Those threats are what inspired terror of God in me as a child, and when I could decide for myself, I promptly tried to forget about any and all things to do with God. It was only when my personal experiences with God let me know that there is more to the Creator than I was taught, in fact that some of what I was taught might just have been wrong.

Morbious Le Noir,

Honestly I fail to see how your referral to Christianity as a "Johnny-come-lately religion based on practices borrowed (to be polite) from anyplace" is any better than Canyon's statements. There are few if any faiths that can claim "purity". As human beings not only do we sometimes come up with similar ideas without any "theft" being involved, we also adopt ideas of the cultures around us. Every culture and or religion has done this. Not just big bad old Christianity. Also, there are many faiths that have been used to justify vile deeds, Christianity isn't alone in this either.

Canyon,
If you actually want to sound less "holier then thou", try losing the "thou's" and other KJV verbage. No one will take you very seriously if you sound like a Shakespearian actor looking for a gig. Try speaking to others as though you were not performing for an audience and trying to get a good score out of it.

Also you will find that you'll get farther by following the teachings of James rather then Paul. Let your actions show your faith, not your mouth. Do you honestly believe that in this day & age where communications are at an all time high, where we can coverse on the Net, watch televison, listen to the radio etc., that anyone in the sound of your voice hasn't already heard your message? Many times? Far too many times? Does it get better with repetition? No, it tends to sound like a broken record.

Your assumtion of having the only direct highway to the divine dosn't insult my pride, it only makes you ridiculous. The idea that some Johnny-come-lately religion based on practices borrowed (to be polite) from anyplace it could find would assume itself to be the only true way is absurd and clownish. There is not one thing in christianity that was not in practice someplace else hundreds if not many, many thousands of years before chrisianity was invented.

You may notice that I use small, not capital letters, in this letter. That is because when someone uses capitals to describe their faith and denegrate that of others, violence is not far behind. And the christian churh is renowned throughout the world for their violence, not their charity, both in the past and in the present. No other person or cause can claim the numbers of dead, tortured and maimed that they can. This is why people who speak as you do make others nervous, not to mention quick to react. Cast your nets (a snare used to entrap food) elsewhere.

I would suggest that instead of intruding in the lives of others, concentrate your energies on your own life. If you make it so fine a life, won't others ask you about it? Your present course makes you out to be an egotistical busybody, and nobody wants to be around those.

Repeatedly Japan has been cited as an example of successful monoculture. That has not been my experience. Japan should also be known for its subtle racism (one cannot get citizenship very easily unless one is born there; being less than full Japanese can also rate descrimination; moving away from Japan affects one's Japanese citizenship, and means that one must spell one's name in katakana instead of the respected kanji). I have also repeatedly encountered Japan's rigid, Victorian-like sexual repression in mainstream society, which in turn fuels their oversexual underculture.

Spiritually, however, as was previously noted, they are certainly successful.

Dear Morbious Le Noir,

Thank you for your post! It is one of my greatest faults that I know how 'holier-than-thou' I come across, and believe me, it is a conscious effort on my end to be more tolerant and accepting, so imagine how I am if I don't actively tone it down!

You are right, creating a relationship with someone, finding out what they believe, then sharing my faith in love is infinitely more effective that these brief blurbs on this message board. Unfortunately though, I haven't time to make friends here, even if many were interested in becoming long-lasting friends. Even still, the readers that do not post, just read, would never hear anything from me if I weren't doing this form of internet preaching.

I have faith in God that as I speak words faithful unto Him, He will bring those with a truth-seeking heart to this site to read HIS words, not mine. If I am not throwing out the net, how can any be saved? It is my greatest pleasure to be trusted as a fisher of men, even if I don't catch anything.

Through years and years of unfaithful preaching, the word of God has become lost to much of the United States Culture, and I feel it imperitive to let people know WHY they are doomed to Hell, not just that they are going, and to also spread the incredible love of my God and Savior.

I realize full well that my absolute asertation of the Truth of the Universe, Hell, and the only way to Salvation is a direct blow to the pride of many, who have spent years, even decades developing their own intricate religions. It is my effort to show unregenerate sinners the error of their ways through the use of the 10-Commandments, in effect, hopefully, side-stepping the pride all together.

My prayers to you in all your endeavors, and thank you for the honest and intelligent letter.

There is a lot of good and bad stuff being said here and I just have a few comments about it all.

I ,personally, have lost many a dear friend because their churches said we couldn't be friends anymore because I wasn't born again.

I was raised Lutheran but after having several bad experiences I decided organized religion wasn't for me. What I do well is listen and listening to people has brought me to two conclusions:

1. Everyone believes in what they want to believe in. If they didn't we wouldn't have the people who could justify the bad things they do; they simply couldn't do them if they really believed what the church told them to.

2. If we were to only live to die, why is the world such a wonderfully screwed up mess of joy and pain? We are supposed to take the bad and the good as they come and learn from the experiences. The world changes everyday, if we don't learn to go with the blows we're going to be knocked on our butts. People who walk around saying "The bible says, the bible says...", in my experience, tend to get thrown the most when things don't go their way.

I do believe there is a higher power up there, I just refuse to give it a name. I practice Wicca and I try very hard to not name the god. I simply refer to them as the God and Goddess. I believe all power in this universe is divided into a duality, just like here on earth.

Thank you for hearing me out.
Merry meet and merry part.
Yomi

I think that folks seem to believe that pagan's are not informed about Christianity. Every pagan or witch I've met knows a great deal about Christian doctrine as well as having a strong grasp on in-depth history of the Christian faith.

Personally, if I'm wrong with my beliefs, I already know what the Bible states will be my punishment. I don't need to be informed about this, as I'm sure the majority of pagans don't either. I transitioned to paganism because it felt more honest, more right than any of the Christian faiths I had given myself over to.

In all things, I seek out The Creator. I just tend to feel that the Spirit of the Universe is above human reactions to human behaviors. Anger is human. Jealousy is human. Possesiveness is human. These are OUR shortcomings. But an all powerful, all knowing god would have to be above these.

Faith and Hope are unifying principles we can lean on together even if we lean in slightly different directions. We have more in common than we seem to realize.

Thank You, Starhawk.

Akasha

Canyon,
I'm willing to take your positions and opinions as sincere, but I wonder if you realize how condesending and sanctimonious you sound saying it? I mean that honestly, not as a critisism of your position. I have heard the same parroted statements and phrases from well meaning Christians for decades and it's worse then hearing a highly repeated sound-bite on the news. I also find it hard to believe that it can be very succesful at your stated goal, that of convincing someone else to your point of view.
I would like to say that tolerence is all very well and good, a wonderful place to start but a better place to work towards is acceptance of anothers opinion or religion or spirituality. That they have the right to a very different one then the one that you might hold very dear. Just as you have the right to yours, no matter how repugnent it might be to me. And believe it or not, your position on Islam and Paganism is quite repugnent to many others. If you then say, "Well, my God has told me to believe and act this way and I must work to impose these beliefs on others" but feel that your doing this is ok because you don't use force to do so, then your viewpoint is very like a person who does use violence and coersion. Only your methodology differs.
Since your God has seen fit to allow all people to make their own choice as to religeon and spiritual paths, please follow his example and do the same.

Good posts FSC. First things first, godma, my post was in responce to you saying that being born in a Christian area will make you a Christian, I just wanted to point out that no-one is born a Christian. You are a child of wrath, your true father is the devil, and that your sins have removed you from God. Unless you are born-again, which is hard to explain, but easy to experience, you will not see the Kingdom of Heaven because you have not been born into the family of God. To be born again, you must repent of your sins and trust Jesus Christ has saved your soul from its punishment so richly deserved.

I am here to discuss, I am more than interested in hearing your ideas, yet somehow you are not at all interested in hearing mine.

I have not come to conquer, I have come to convince.

Now, what can we learn from collective religion? We can learn the deceitful, pridefilled, darkness shrouded human heart. Christianity is a lover of light, Islam a lover of dark, and Paganism falls within the realm of blurry-twilight. It is an interesting examination of theology to listen to the established and personal religions of the world.

I really like your question on how our religion drives us towards positive service. As a Christian, I know that nothing I can do to earn my spot in Heaven. The works of an unsaved person, in order to save themselves from Heaven are as used tampons to God...the Bible actually says that. That is what I believe the other religions are doing good for, pure philantropy exists only in Christianity. Christians are driven towards doing good because we are created in the Image of God, and what we do reflects on Him. Non-Christian philantropy, in all cases I have examined, is in order to improve Karma, earn Heaven, or find a tax-break.

As for shared action, the most important thing we need to bring from this is, "I won't kill you for believing different from me." There is really only one religion this is aimed at, but it's screwing up the rest of them. There also needs to be a system of checks and balances, The Religion of Evolution has previously killed 6 Million Jews and 5 Million Christians, Homosexuals, Blacks, and Gypsies just in less than ten years. Now the religion of evolution wants to be able to kill babies after they have been delivered into the world, in case they may have birth defects...what's next? Old people who don't have full brain function? Young people who aren't good at sports or are obese? It is imperative that the religions of the world come together, stop killing each other, and stop the legalization of infanticide.

Susan, I am sorry that I am not tolerant of your willful decision to go to Hell. If, and I hope you don't, you find yourself in Hell, you would be mad at me if I didn't warn you in advance, and you still may be mad that I wasn't more forceful or more eloquent. If I didn't love you and the rest of the human race, I would be asleep right now comfortable in the fact that I would have Heaven all to myself...

Would it be appropriate if I sat on a lawn-chair next to the previously mentioned cliff and watched people go over?

"How are you today?"

"Nice Day Today."

"Are you sure you're on the right path?"
'ummm...I think so...it feels right to me...'
"Ok! Have a great day."

I am tolerant that you will have your own ideas, I am intolerant that any should perish.

Thank you, FSC, for both of your posts. A breath of fresh air. According to Canyon, tolerance means not killing someone for believing the wrong thing. That doesn't work for me. It's hard to engage in meaningful dialog when you're conversing with someone whose beliefs are so dogmatic that it's like you're talking (or writing as the case may be) to a brick wall.

I consider myself basically a Pagan, but I was raised a Catholic and my grandmother worshipped with Unity which is a very open spirituality based in the belief that God is Love and Love is the most powerful force in the Universe. I've had many personal experiences that are "proof" enough for me that there is more to life than meets the eye, that God or whatever one calls the Great Mystery or the Divine exists, that there is some kind of life or existance after death whether it be reincarnation or the continuation of the soul in some way. I'm aware of the fact that, should I choose to share my stories, someone who doesn't share my particular beliefs could shred them to pieces in an effort to prove me wrong. But they are my stories, my experiences, and they don't have to be valid to anyone else for them to be real and valid for me. Moreover, to me the beauty of the Earth and the cosmos, the fact that we are a part of it all, inseparable from it all is worthy of gratitude, awe, and love.

DIVERSITY: A 'good' pain

I agree that diversity, by nature, helps ensure resilience. The non-human natural world, certainly demonstrates that. For e.g., ecosystems with high levels of biodiversity tend to have increased capacity and greater tolerance of change. Those with low levels of diversity tend to be much more vulnerable to change and may even collapse if diversity is too low. (re: various diversity measures: genetic, species, alpha, beta, etc.)

And yes, in human-to-human exchanges, diversity can be a 'pain.' However, since I believe we are part of 'nature,' I also believe there is benefit in preserving and honoring diversity. We may not like what some people believe or do (if they thought about it, I don't expect a salmon would be enthusiastic about fishers either) but I believe/know there is a part each of us plays in the collective system. Question is: Are we prepared to moderate the competitive, antagonistic and/or 'predator-prey' relationships with each other?

Just wondering. . .

FSC

I must admit I’m rather disturbed (but not surprised) by what I’m seeing as dominating discussions in response to all panelists posting to date on the question of the possibility of dialogue, the difficulties and potential benefits. The difficulties become immediately apparent. There are certainly strong indications that Panelist Sherman Jackson is correct: “we often speak of ‘conversation’ when what we really mean is ‘conquest.’ ” It seems a very large percentage of conversations here are devoted to convincing others that view A is correct and all others are not (or have some very serious hell-bound consequences)..

Aside from the ‘evidence’ of the difficulties in the collective posts themselves, there also seems to be a good deal of time devoted to why it is difficult/impossible to have meaningful, useful dialogue. I agree it is/can be difficult; sometimes it may even be impossible. And understanding the challenges and barriers can be helpful in finding ways to ameliorate them. Great. It’s one place to start. In tandem with respect, genuine commitment to listening and understanding, and an interest in finding ways to work more harmoniously together for our collective well-being, I think the ‘difficulties’ are pretty much a no-brainer; the ‘impossible’ will just take a little longer. ;)

All that said, my particular interest in the question posed by the moderators, is more focussed on the potential *benefits* of our exchanges; benefits that extend beyond uniquely individual interests. Panelist Rabbi Cowan speaks of “inner life.” It’s personal. What can we learn about how individuals’ beliefs, articles of ‘faith’/non-faith, etc. manifest in practice? What is it about our beliefs, values, faith(s), spirituality or what-have-you, that motivates us to service and positive change? What can we draw from these to facilitate our collective movement towards a more peaceful, just and sustainable world? What commitment to shared action might we make together?

Just wondering if these latter questions are of interest to anyone else out there.

FSC

In response to Starhawk's post, I agree that diversity of beliefs can be beneficial, so long as the "competition" (for the bits and pieces of each that work best at achieving certain goals) is fair. Otherwise, someone will always feel slighted.

So, for a given set of goals, the results produced by the various sets of beliefs should be measured against each other. If our goals are "feelings of awe, peace, and mystery", I can see religion as having a chance of winning. If our goals are "true knowledge of the nature of observable reality", then science would be the clear winner (based on how good a job it does of making such predictions, for example).

Sorry Canyon, but I have no idea what you mean. Could you elaborate, please? Why do you think this is relevant?

Perhaps looking into Starhawk's body of work (I recommend Earth Path - (a good look at ecology, the reality of the thinking that has gotten our ecological system into such a mess, and how that can relate to our spirituality) you could get a better understanding of her spiritual philosophy. Her website includes many of her essays and updates on areas of activism she gives herself to. She is not the only voice for pagans, or even pagans in the Reclaiming Tradition, but she is certainly an elder with a lot of wisdom to share.

As for the name calling and attacks - I've come to expect it on almost all internet forums. Anonymity seems to bring out the best and often the worst in people. I am not interested in participating.

I would not paint any religion with one brush. Many Christians stand beside me (a Pagan)in matters of environmentalism and social justice and we have mutual respect for one another. For that matter, groups of people with social and environmental concerns include many faiths. We come together not to argue about each others beliefs, but to unify on the things we can all agree about.

Blessed Be
Kimberley

GODMA,

I would like to remind you that God doesn't have any grand-children.

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Susan,

Understood, I wish you'd consider continuing the conversation however. Sometimes I come on a little strong because I have looked into EVERY supposed contradiction, scientific objection, other religion placed before me, and they all fall short of the Glory of God.

I am always interested in hearing more and communicating about them.

Christians are tolerant of other religions, which means we won't kill you for believing the wrong thing, but we won't let you fall blindly into Hell.

Imagine you say, "I know you're warning me of the cliff I am walking blind-folded towards, but I don't believe in cliffs, lets just agree to disagree."

Does it matter what you believe, or what I believe, even?

The cliff is real and you are walking towards it, only now I hope that I have helped to loose the blindfold, even just a little.

Oops. Here's a direct link:
http://www.wadsworth.com/religion_d/special_features/popups/maps/matthews_world/content/map_01.html

I'm sorry to prolong the response to Sorrow, but a lot of you might find this interesting as well.

Sorrow wrote: "Just because a child grows up in a Christian home does not make him/her a Christian, any more than growing up in a garage makes one a car"

And while she might be correct in some individual cases, on the whole, the evidence is overwhelming that one's religion is correlated to where they live. Here's a great map to consider.

http://www.wadsworth.com/religion_d/special_features/popups/maps/maps_f.html

Canyon Shearer: We're just going to have to agree to disagree. We have totally different belief systems here and we aren't going to change each other's minds.

Jeffrey: The fact that some groups seek the destruction of other groups for their beliefs doesn't mean diversity itself is bad. It is a challenge, you're right about that, and there is no simple answer. I don't know what the solution is (since I don't think war is the answer either), but I still say diversity makes us stronger, more able to deal with the rogues as there will be many different points of view to bring to the discussion leading, perhaps eventually, to greater understanding and tolerance on the part of everyone. On the other hand, maybe there will always be religious groups who seek the destruction of anyone who disagrees with them, because they see disbelivers as direct threats to their own freedom, or they fear being displaced from their land, or they're just angry in general. If anyone in this discussion comes up with a solution to this problem, well, they deserve the Nobel Prize.

Susan,

The Bible was penned by man, but it is certainly not man-made. The heart of man is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; yet the Bible is perfection and righteousness, because it is not the word of man, it is the Word of God. Man did not randomly choose how the Bible would be assembled, they developed the Canon of Scripture which ensures that a book was indeed inspired by God. The 325a.d. Bible has been reexamined thousands, nay, millions of times, and the canon still passes, and the Bible remains true to this day.

Your Grandmother broke the 2nd of the 10 Commandments, as did Starhawk. When you create your own god, you do away with righteousness and justice and everything that makes God, God. "God is the God of love, but it's not some pampering love, it's a perfecting love"(John MacArthur). The Bible is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. God's love is a Chastising love. God so loved the world that He DIED for it! If God would just let you into Heaven, He wouldn't be just, and He wouldn't be God, your punishment for sin is due, you can pay it, or you can receive the gift of Jesus Christ that He paid it.

Just for the record, you will not go to Hell for not repenting or for believing in Jesus Christ. You will go to Hell for lying, stealing, coveting, dishonoring your parents, blaspheming, lusting, hatred, cursing, making up a god to suit yourself, and ignoring God. The lack of repentence will not add any extra punishment in Hell, but if you repent now, you will save yourself a lot of pain.

Wow. That was all a lot to get through. Why can't we all agree to disagree without the name calling. Again, please don't throw stones because no one here is perfect.

What I love about Wicca/paganism is that it gets down to the bare ground of what the dogma teaches without political agendas getting in the way. All of the mainstream religions teach love, tolerance, and peace. That, to me, is what Wicca is all about. the main difference between Wicca and other religions is that we don't say "you are wrong and are going to burn in hell if you don't believe our way."

Also remember that when you talk about a difference in dogmas, you are talking about people, not the religion. Most of our critiques so far have been about people and their ways of interpreting/following certain ideas. I feel that if more people took a serious look at the foundation of their religions and not a twisted interpretation, they would really see others for what they really are - humans. Jesus, in my opinion, was a born again hippie. Long hair, wanting nothing but peace and love. Does this ring a bell?

In closing, I say love the person, for they too are only human and going through the same struggles.

Peace out.

MAC:

"The problem is not diversity itself, but the way human nature causes people to look at people that are different from you as not as good as you. I know some will argue that this is not part of human nature, but I think most evidence points in that direction. I do not know if their is an answer to this problem"

and

"This discussion is great and all, but can we just all agree that Sorrow is a jackass"

Starhawk's last paragraph describes this problem exactly. I believe the answer to the problem is "Love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your might." From that flows "Love your neighbor as yourself." When we can accomplish these things, we can have discussions like this that don't degenerate into personal attacks on beliefs.

Starhawk -
As you view diversity a strength, do you not recognize there are some groups whose belief structures seek the destruction of others?

Lets take, for example, "His Excellency" Khatami who has been presented as another writer on this "absolute truth". Islamist extremists' fundamental "truth" in Iran would be to kill many of those with beliefs that you may espouse as deserving respect through diversity.

How can diversity accommodate a belief structure that seeks the total elimination of those with a different belief structure? Answer is obvious - it can not. And this is the number one issue of today in religion in the world. But not a single writer is willing to confront this obvious challenge.

That is cowardly and frankly, it is suicidal.

Aren't all religions man-made? After all, men wrote the Bible, both the Old Testament and the New, men decided which gospels would be included based on their own prejudices and limitations and the prejudices and limitations of the times in which they lived, men (for the most part) have interpreted the Bible for Christians. Jesus actually wrote none of the Bible, rather he was a prophet who preached love and tolerance and peace, qualities that seem to be sorely lacking in the "repent or go to hell" Christian belief system. My grandmother taught me that heaven and hell are both here on Earth, and they are of our own creation. Her God was a God of love, not hate or revenge or punishment. I believe we do create our own reality – to a point. If a tree falls on my house in a windstorm, I don't think I created it. Some things just happen and then we deal with them. However, if I am lonely and isolated, chances are that is of my own creation.

Really Sorrow, come on. I'll plagarise Jon Stewart here but your argument is like saying that if you accuse a man of murder then you must first prove every other man in the country didn't do it.

The Second Commandment of the Creator, God Himself:
Thou Shalt Not Create Any gods Before Me.

What you have done is created a god to suit yourself, one which you can be comfortable with, that doesn't pose a threat to you, which won't care what you do. The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God.

I agree with you that doing good things and giving of yourself is high on the list in a successful society, but paramount is a firm moral structure, which man-made religions cannot offer.

And just what is the definition of good? Is it giving a quarter to a homeless man? Or donating 50% of your paycheck to combating the pseudoscience of global warming? How about selling off everything you own so you can move to the Sudan and pass out vaccines?

Each is more good than the other, but how will goodness help you before the Judgement Seat of God? Imagine a courtroom where a man has murdered someone, he tells the judge, "I admit to murder, but I have given quarters to the homeless, donated 50% of my paycheck to global-warming, and before I murdered, I passed out vaccines in the Sudan; I'm sure you'll see fit to let me go."

The truth is that the murderer must be punished, God will not care for your good deeds when He judges you for lying(even small ones), stealing(even music), hatred, lust, and creating false gods.

I am not threatening you with eternal torment, I am WARNING you of it.

The only way to Heaven is to acknowledge that God on Earth, Jesus Christ, was completely deserving to Heaven, yet took your punishment and died on the Cross on Calvary, defeated death and delivered your soul from the grips of Hell. Repent of your transgressions and place your full trust in God to save you from the punishment you deserve.

I hope we get to hear more from Starhawk - what does your belief system have to offer in these current times? And how do real-life witches work out conflicts at a personal level? And how can you learn to honor the diversity that includes governments who do horrible things to people? Wouldn't witches be casting spells or whatever against that sort of thing? If so, where does diversity fit in?

thanks

I like Starhawks approach.
At long last there is a person of faith who doesn't threaten me with eternal torment if I don't mend my ways.
Nor does she from the outset redicule anyone for not sharing her views.
I realy appreciate that.
Seems as if you can breath freely in her company, even your take on the universe might differ.
Thanks.

Yes, peace. Many pagans are vegetarian. To bring this discussion full circle, Starhawk's definitions show the unity in diversity. Many atheists may yet acknowledge a great mystery in life, and may agree that this mystery may be best described in metaphor.

" ‘Polytheism’ means the belief in many different names and approaches to the sacred. While most of us believe in a deep, spiritual unity at the heart of existence, we also believe in the value of many different names, faces, symbols, and paths to that heart. No one has a monopoly on truth, in our teachings, and every religion and spiritual tradition holds a perspective that has value and is uniquely suited to some individuals’ needs.

"The Goddess is the great, creative life force, the living being whose body is the universe, the cycles of birth, growth, death and regeneration that animate all things. She is the oneness that underlies all, but different facets of her story and her power are revealed to us in the form of particular Goddesses and Gods from many different times and cultures. Each is like a gateway that leads us to a particular path of development and growth."

Just a comment to Mac who said: "On the other hand look at Japan, one of the most homogenous cultures on the Earth and they have one of the most prosperous countries on the Earth."

The beauty of Japan is in the religious tolerance of the people. A nation of Shinto, Buddhist, Christian believers and more. You'll often find Japanese will be born Shinto, marry in a Christian ceremony and be buried Buddhist. It's no big deal. A good friend's daughter married a Muslim and he was welcome in the family with open arms.

Tolerance.

Peace with every meal...

Eco-Eating: Eating as if the Earth Matters
http://www.brook.com/veg

Peace with every breath...

last comment: I believe the main problem with religion and diversity is that most religions make it easy for people to divide the world into a dichotomy of "us vs. them," it makes it easier to see other people as different from us, and sometimes less than us. There are religions that do not do this such as buddhism, shinto, and others. The problem is that religions that do this play on human nature making people believe that they are better than everyone else because their god is better. The problem is not diversity itself, but the way human nature causes people to look at people that are different from you as not as good as you. I know some will argue that this is not part of human nature, but I think most evidence points in that direction. I do not know if their is an answer to this problem. Obviously we're going to have to figure it out as technology flattens the world and we become more intertwined. I'm really curious to hear if any of you think there is a solution to this problem, and "we have to learn to love each other" is not good enough, that is a result, not a solution. Thanks

Perhaps the most uncomfortable situations that humans can find ourselves in are those that test our beliefs and long-held "truths". But the joy that can be found on the other side of "knowledge" is so much worth the effort! By keeping ourselves open to other possibilities, we can avoid the pitfalls of arrogance and the distructiveness of intolerance. I'm thoroughly enjoying the debates and exchanges! Thank you all!

As someone who generally distrust religion and the religious, I have to say I like neo-pagan religions on the whole. For one thing, multiple gods (or aspects of gods) allow for multiple opinions and belief systems, and minimizes the "no other god but god" mentality. Second, you have to admire a religion like Wiccanism whose central tenet is "do nothing unto others you would not have done unto you" and teaches that the gods punish those who do harm to others by bringing that harm back upon them.
Buddhism adopts a similar mentality by simply co-opting all religions into a larger framework of universal connection.
On the whole, I would argue that the very real problems arising from religion in the modern era arise from the intrinsic and unique need of monotheistic religions to invalidate the beliefs of other religions. While the above examples illustrate that it is certainly true in theory that there is no reason why multiple religions can't coexist, it seems equally true that no monotheistic religion can exist in conjunction with any other religion, be it monotheistic or otherwise.

ahhh, every time I think I know something, the universe offers me a chance to prove it !

Here I was, reading and nodding, smiling away to find a Goddess perspective represented in a discussion of religion...and then whoosh, the comments turn into a debate on the existence of god ? Just when I was so confident in my ability to value... Diversity. Ah well, thankyou universe. And Starhawk. And all the commenters. Yes, I do value diversity, even if it is occasionally a pain ;)

Yes, let's go "back to the discussion of "In natural systems, diversity gives resilience and strength." What does anyone think about this statement?"

I think it is important not to confuse the presence of diversity with tolerance for diversity. There are clear examples of successful less-diverse societies such as Japan's, which was cited earlier by Mac. There are also clear examples of very UNsuccessful less-diverse societies such as Germany in the 1930's and early 1940's.

The presence of diversity is not on its own bad, in fact my personal opinion is that it's very good, but the absence of tolerance, also known as the unwillingness to accept diversity, is truly bad. Iraq's current civil war and other similar cases stem not from diversity but from intolerance--in some cases, going back decades or centuries.

Starhawk,

Your words, both here and elsewhere have always run hard and true with me.

With respect, we must show love and open up the greater conversation with those different around us.

It is not diversity that causes the problems in Iraq or elsewhere. It is the missing respect and mutal acceptance of those beliefs. I have opened up the channels in my own life, and surrounded by diversity, and all walks of life, I see that such is possible. I look foward to hearing more what you have to say.

JohnnyDee just said what I wanted to say. Diversity isn't the problem in Iraq, but intolerance of diversity. It's great to have Starhawk's perspective adding to the diversity here. Looking forward to future discussion.

Many people believe there is more to this world than what we can see with human eyes. For some of us, the Divinity is seen as female and male, Goddess and God. The changing of the seasons around us is beauty. We recognize the cycles of change in ourselves and the world around us.

I cannot prove the existance of Divinity to you and need no further proof for myself. I will continue to help where I can in the ways that I can. I believe that honoring the spirit I see in the the people I work with and aiding them to heal is the work I am supposed to do.

Your mileage may vary...:>)

This discussion is great and all, but can we just all agree that Sorrow is a jackass and get back to the discussion of "In natural systems, diversity gives resilience and strength." What does anyone think about this statement? I agree that in nature diversity is good, but when you have a diversity of opinions it's not always a good thing. This discussion being an example. While hating on people that believe in god can we remember that the person that started this discussion is a polytheist. What does anyone think of that?

Hi Mac, the troubles in Iraq presented by the various religious factions are not the result of diversity, but a reaction to diversity by mutually intolerant religious and ethnic groups. If these factions were open to debate, knowledge, and a "unity in diversity", we wouldnt be there, as they would have found amongst themselves the answers to their problems, answers which already lie within their hearts and minds, were they only willing to listen to one anothers truths.
Blessings,+JohnnyDee

Horace:

First, your attempt to analogize Inflationary Big Bang theory (BBT) with a car blowing up in a garage represents a perfect example of poor logic and fallacious reasoning. The two lack that one-to-one match-up we would expect in a strong analogy. For instance, the car’s explosion is different from the expansion (this is better nomenclature than “bang” or “explosion” which were terms contrived by BBT detractors) of spacetime that occurred at the beginning of BBT. Second, for the car to put itself back together would require a decrease in entropy, which is against the second law of thermodynamics. However, your analogy assumes that the amount of entropy in the universe has decreased correspondently; considering the uniformity of the early universe as demonstrated by the CMBR as compared to the disorderly distribution of galaxies today this is clearly erroneous.

For more you should check out www.talkorigins.com or some of the works of Victor Stenger, Leonard Susskind, or Martin Rees.

Sorrow:

First, the burden of proof in any debate is on the party making the positivistic existential truth claim. Ben R. alluded to this when referencing Bertrand Russell’s famous “teapot agnosticism” hypothetical. As a scientist, you should know this, especially since whenever you perform experiments to verify a hypothesis you are performing this very function. When ever a scientist claims that black holes are typically at the center of galaxies, that ulcers are caused by bacteria, that the earth is round, or any other truth claim, scientists and the public immediately asks for evidence. The same goes for people who claim a god exists.

Second, when you define god as an amorphous “higher power” with no attributes or characteristics the concept becomes, as Michael Shermer clearly stated, “insoluble” and it also becomes vacuous. However, once you start to give your god concept characteristics it tends to become soluble, provable or disprovable. The gods of the Abrahamic religions, due to the characteristics attributed to them in their corresponding holy texts and the supposed truth claims made by them within the holy texts, represent provable or disprovable truth claims. All of them are false. The tri-omni characteristics of these god concepts are logically incoherent and encounter the seemingly irreconcilable problem of evil. Not to mention the factual inaccuracies the texts are riddled with (why would an omniscient being make these mistakes and if he is omniscient he would be able to find a way to accurately transmit this information through any medium to ensure inerrancy) and the complete lack of proof for miracles or any other type of supernatural interference in the natural world.

Michelle:

If you had really encountered incontrovertible evidence for Christianity then why have you not already shared it with the world? After all, this evidence could spare millions from eternal torture and the gnashing of the worm. And why should we suppose the evidence you have for your particular faith is anymore valid than the evidence Muslims cite for theirs, or Jews for theirs, or pagans for theirs, etc.?

Sadly, the fact that belief came before evidence in your case tends to undermine any claim to evidence you have, since your bias was probably influencing your interpretation of whatever data you collected. But please, offer up your evidence and let it stand trial before the objective standards Sorrow supposedly employs everyday as a scientist.

oops. i said "believe as you may" didn't i?
sorry horace.
dance monkey, dance.

horace that is horace-crap.
don't be afraid to live. honesty, truth, happiness, loyalty, love, compassion and every other feeling is capable without fearing a big mean god.

If you were to disassemble a car, put it in a garage and set off an explosion the car parts would not come back together as a whole.
So much for the big bang theory. Take a look around you and will realize that the univerae must have a designer. And that designer is God your creator. One day we all will have to stand before Him to give an account for our lives.
May God open your eyes & heart and reveal Himself to you in a personal way.

who said, "what you assert to be true without proof I may dismiss without proof?"
we came from somewhere but no one knows. no one.
believe as you may -- we'll all be dead in the blink of a geological eye.

Sorrow:

1. In any debate, the burden of proof lies on the party making the claim. It's not up to anyone to disprove the existence of the supernatural, it's up to the claimants to prove it. To which, despite thousands of years of human though on the subject, nobody has.

2. Disprove that god is not a giant Spaghetti monster? Can't do it? By your logic then it must be true.

Sorrow:

First, you might think about changing your moniker to "Anger." Just saying.

Second, have you ruled out the teapot orbiting the sun? I think you need to re-examine where the burden of proof lies on this one.

Starhawk, do you really think diversity does people good? Look at Iraq, there are Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds, they have slightly different beliefs and look how well they get along. On the other hand look at Japan, one of the most homogenous cultures on the Earth and they have one of the most prosperous countries on the Earth. Your metaphor for a prairie makes no sense when applied to the real world. The fact is that when you have extremely diverse areas, like the U.S., people are forced to get along. In areas where you only have a few groups that are extremely divisive, it rarely leads to good things.

Sorrow: Great, ask atheists to prove a negative, that's really smart. So prove to me that there is not an exact replica of the Statue of Liberty floating in the center of our galaxy. Exactly, you can't for the same reason I can't prove there is no god. But the fact remains that there is equally high a chance of each being true, none. So think about that before you call others ignorant for what they believe. Honestly you're a scientist? I would have thought you would have known better than to make an argument with a hole in it the size of the Milky Way

Michelle,

Yes, I have questioned God's existence, and I daresay so has every Christian prior to salvation. Every Christian has to have wrestled with this particular question before ever accepting the salvation message to begin with.

Just because a child grows up in a Christian home does not make him/her a Christian, any more than growing up in a garage makes one a car.

Christianity is an individual thing. Each person has to CHOOSE to believe in God and the salvation message individually. Some require "evidence." Some have their hearts changed in the blink of an eye.

As for myself, until I was 25 years old, I was walking around with a sense of hunger... a fathomless hole in my heart. I was drawn again and again to the Bible, trying to find something that made sense to me.

One day, I opened the Bible and my eyes fell on the words of "doubting" Thomas. And just as suddenly, I believed, and have ever since. Rather than finding "evidence" discounting the Christian faith, over the years I've discovered all sorts of evidence that it is real, true and holy.

Peace...

Sorrow,
Did you ever think that maybe God only exists because we believe him to exist. And if that would be true than if we didn't believe him to exist than he wouldn't. Maybe we are our own gods and we create our past, present, and future only because we believe them to be in existence. Have you ever flirted with the idea that we create our own realities and our lives are what we created them to be and God has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Bill,
Has any atheist ever proven that god/supreme being/allah/spirits of nature (or whatever else people call this 'higher power') DOESN'T EXIST? I didn't think so. I am a career scientist and in science, we can't ever PROVE anything, we just rule things out. When it comes to religion, there is no way to rule out that there isn't a higher power. So scoff all you want, but truly, you are just as ignorant (or more so) than religious people when it comes to discussions of "Does god exist?"

I realize today that through my own spiritual journeys, wise people from many other faiths have at times guided that journey. While I have now found peace as an Episcopalian, and have also been a member of Unitarian Universalist and some other Christian congregations in the past, the writings of Starhawk and other spiritual leaders have brought me through the most important life and death experiences, especially when coping with the deaths of my parents some years ago. Thank goodness we have the diversity of those wise practitioners of faith in many traditions, who leave us their books as lights for difficult times. If I am able to hear the sincerity of a spiritual message that speaks to me, I do not care what particular religious label the speaker is wearing at the time. All that matters is what is said, and what I needed to hear.

May I make a post to guide future discussion. Many followers of the world's major religions will probably scoff at the beliefs of a pagan and a polytheist.(and I scoff with you) However, it should be noted that you both are utterly unable to prove in a reproducible way that their is only one deity and not many. (Thus I scoff at you too)