Forgiveness without Justice Grants Evil Clemency

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It has been said that there is no honor among thieves. Likewise, there is no respect given between evil parties. If we return good for evil, we might suspect we are offering a pass to evil. Yet evil attacks evil - we see it in the battles of street gangs and in the wars of colonial powers.

Retributive justice encourages counter-retribution. Restorative justice seeks to restore the parties to healthy relationships.

Returning evil for evil - harm for harm - only increases the evil and harm in the world. Better to let evil attack itself.

Mike
You wrote“We read in Matthew 6:15 that God will not forgive us unless we forgive others. Although it is often hard to do, it is a Christian duty to forgive. Failure to do so would seem to deny oneself salvation.”
If you only read verse fifteen you miss the whole lesson.
Matt.6:15 is the conclusion of Jesus teaching on prayer, the lesson begins in 6:5, Reading the whole passage will help keep the verses in context.
Mk. 11:25, 26 also speaks on prayer.
So what is the lesson, actually Jesus spells it out quite clearly for us in those passages. He simply says when you come before God in prayer come with a clean heart, no hidden animosity or hatred towards others. The Father will not tolerate such spiritual behavior; He wants his children to live together in harmony.

Obedience
By obeying the present voice of God we express our love to Him. Jesus’ entire life was an expression of His love of the Father. He didn’t obey begrudgingly or in order to receive a resurrection, He obeyed because He loved the Father, period.

Concerning Salvation and your query for a cite regarding “once saved always saved”.
1Jn.2:19 Tells us those who fall away into apostasy demonstrate that their faith was never real to begin with.
1Jn. Chapters 1,2 shows each believer where they stand in their relationship with God.
Yet David sinned a long time and Psalm 51:12 tells us he lost the joy of his salvation, not the salvation itself.

People who believe ---Today I am saved , Tomorrow I might lose it , Then I can receive salvation all over again when I repent really good , --- choose to live under the law or (works) instead of Rom.4:4 under the grace of God.
Jesus fulfilled the law for us; we are pardoned and have freedom in Christ.

Rom.6:23 Tells us the two absolutes Sin leads to death, But the gift of God leads to eternal life in Christ.
Salvation is a gift given to whomsoever will, One does not work to receive a gift (salvation), If you had to work for the gift (salvation) then by definition it would no longer be a gift (salvation) but something
You obtained by your own works.

People that live and teach salvation can be lost and regained as a rule use that belief to exert control over others. History gives us examples of such control freaks ---
The early Pope’s mantra “ No Church no Salvation “
Or the Pharisees who loved the law above the better sacrifice of the Messiah only because it kept them in a position of power over others.

When someone says “Jesus may have died as a sacrifice for our sins, BUT Don’t Forget”
---------------------- Proceed with caution.

Sincerely

And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

One part you left mikelm “the fat of rams”

And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above; And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck.

Do you see “thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth” Look “the fat of rams”

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Do you see the judgment written in the Psalm, “the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs” What does Esau inherit “thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth” Look “the fat of rams” What did Isaac say “by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother” Look “And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also shall be a possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly.; and Israel shall do valiantly.” This is the kingdom you inherit “Seir also shall be a possession for his enemies” “the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs” What does Esau inherit “thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth” Look “the fat of rams” Do you see “they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away” Look “And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore: Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.”

mike said " It seems to me that accepting Jesus as savior is not, in itself, enough for salvation"

Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.

Do you see what a saviour is "thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies." It is not for leading to salvation. This is what you believe "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." Do you see "salvation is of the Jews" Look "And all flesh shall see the salvation of God." Words from Job "While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee." "all flesh shall see the salvation of God." "The fire of God is fallen from heaven" "hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them" “the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs” What you believe "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" “Seir also shall be a possession for his enemies” "thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies." “by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother” "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship"

4'th watch:
"Neither Matt.6:15 or Mk. 11:25 are about salvation. Jesus is not suggesting that God will withdraw justification from those who have already received the salvation He extends to all humankind. Forgiveness in the salvation sense is a permanent freedom from the ultimate penalty of sin."

I'm not sure how you get that response from:
"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
(Matthew 6:15)
"And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses."
(Mark 11:25)

It seems pretty obvious and unambiguous that Jesus *is* saying that unless you forgive others, God will not forgive your tresspasses.

Jesus may have died as a sacrifice for our sins, but don't forget, "And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice..." (1 Samuel 15:22)

One also reads, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21) It seems to me that accepting Jesus as savior is not, in itself, enough for salvation. One must also obey - not just today, but everyday.

Finally, I cannot agree with what looks like "once saved, always saved." That just does not conform to anything I read anywhere in the Christian Bible. Perhaps you have a cite for that.

Mike

Our Father who is the Heavens,Honorable is your name.
Your Kingdom come Your will be done, on earth as it is done in the Heavens.
Give Us this day Lord Jesus Christ our daily bread and Forgive us our trespasses,
as We Forgive those who trespass against us.
Lead us away from temptation and deliver us from evil, Heavenly Father.Amen

Forgive us our trespasses,as We Forgive those who trespass against us. Plain and simple
God Bless and Peace Always. Matthew

You forgive or you don’t the goes on and that too in only one and same direction....every where in this universe. Absolute forgiveness is where you have to end up eventually. But it takes efforts. Islam is a religion of peace. Terrorism has no boundaries of religion. Muhammad never preached violence. As a matter of fact it is a system of social justice, or for that matter no justice that has roots with the terrorism. As long as the atrocities against some community do not ends how forgiveness is implemented in its true spirit. Still forgiveness is the one most important thing we all should exercise. But the best it happens after the end of remorse, of whatever kind it may be!!!

As a Catholic myself I'd have to agree that all Christians are Catholic, although Samuel Rodriguez probably would not agree.
I'm not sure whether all Catholics are Christian - probably not - and it amuses me how many people feel qualified to predict who is or is not going to Hell. On that particular subject you have a point.
Too many religious leaders seem to think fear is a good way to keep the flock in line. It is no accident that so many passionate and committed atheists come from fire-and-brimstone backgrounds.

Viejita del oeste:

All Christian are Catholics, Roman types. They are all offspring of holy mother church. Those who do not honor the authority of the pope are heretics. I was being polite not noticing that.

Here's proof directly from, without editing or interpreting the absolute word of God, the Bible that is the foundation of all Christian religions.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Did Jesus say CHURCHES or CHURCH?

And that's not all Jesus said.

Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Without any need for interpretation the pope was given the power to define sins, bind on earth and God so binds in heaven. Heresy was defined to be a sin before being a Christian was cool, many many years ago. All non Catholics are going to hell according to the Roman Catholic church. Ecumenical? Ha!

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul has more Bible passages than I can or will put here that says all three great faiths, all Jews, all Christians and all Muslims are demanding to be let into hell.

So the bottom line on Christian forgiveness is obvious. Will Lucifer, the supernatural being that lives in hell fire, the one Moses made the deal with and the alleged father of Jesus forgive you? Why not?

Forgiveness in English has the sound of letting someone off with having done a wrong. In Greek the word means to "restore to a common standing". This means that it necessarily includes justice. Justice facilitates the ability of a victim to go past the injustice that they suffered, even if the offender is unremorseful because they see the offender suffer some penalty. It restores balance.

On a spiritual level though we can forgive even without justice. Normally when a wrong is committed the victim (as also the community) feels themselves on a lesser ground and they need to regain their standing. However when we see that it is really the offender that is on a lesser ground we forgive to help uplift them and bring them on the same ground. This of course does not mean that the offender should get away with the crime. But if we can uplift them they will be willing to pay for the crime which means they are less likely to commit another crime.

The crimes of terror are those that we need to address most urgently. And depending on the crimes to punish the offenders. A great deal of terrorism exists in the dirty games that are played by some individuals in their efforts to control others, often spouses. These create health problems and in some cases death but they remain unseen as the death or sickness is simply seen as "natural causes". (see http://www.annavictoria.net for more details). It would be impossible to pushish these people, for the sheer numbers of them. However in being exposed they certainly suffer. Terrorists, whether they commit acts that are blatantly obvious or ones that go unseen, are also people that require the greatest amount of understanding in order to forgive, "to bring them up to the common ground. A terrorist, whether foreign or homegrown is at heart anti-social and remorseless. They have lost touch with the flame of love in their hearts. They certainly have to be opposed, brought down and their deeds exposed. But they are also in the greatest need of forgiveness. And I suspect despite our efforts some may be beyond redemption, so the need is great to forgive.
Regards AnnaVictoria.

BGone,
I'm not sure why you're blathering away about the pope on this thread. Rodriguez is not Catholic, and no one here has introduced a Catholic point of view.

Neither Matt.6:15 or Mk. 11:25 are about salvation. Jesus is not suggesting that God will withdraw justification from those who have already received the salvation He extends to all humankind. Forgiveness in the salvation sense is a permanent freedom from the ultimate penalty of sin. What Jesus was teaching the disciples is that it is a believer’s duty to maintain a forgiving attitude; as successful prayer requires both forgiveness and faith.
How we should pray to God is what Jesus teaches us in these verses.

harold a zeller:

The Bible is a proved hoax. You can find what you want to find in it for it's a really good one, hoax that is. I wouldn't be surprised to find every philosophy within the Bible to be contradicted by still another on therein. Most all popular ones are, "eye for eye.." cortradicts "love thy enemies" for example.

Simplify your thoughts and in turn your life. There are no "third party" forgivers. Only the offended can forgive. Christianity in particular and the three great faiths in general cater to people who need forgiveness that can't quiet manage it with the offended.

The concept of hell comes from the need to do something about the "non forgiving" offended. Human beings, as a matter of natural consequence, built into the psyche, are deathly afraid of doing harm to other humans. Taking the life of others is at the top of the "never do" list. The notion of third party forgiveness and hell both sprang from the desire to take that which belonged to others including their lives. And get away with it of course, (see "hell of the first type" at hoax buster).

Real easy to understand. Mr A kills Mr B. What happens to Mr B? Of course, he goes on to the next world and waits for Mr A who will definitely be along sooner or later. The notion that Mr B went to hell relieves Mr A of a lot of mental pressure, worrying about his victim waiting for him. All Mr A has to do is go to heaven.

Thus the high priest, the one who decides who shall and who shall not enter into the kingdom of God, next world is a what? Is there a God that will protect murderers from their victims in the next world? There isn't one here in this world is there?

Unless of course the king is God and the king intends to keep on being king in the next world. Thus it is not God that protect the killer but the king. But who benefits from the killing. Well, when it's the conquest of other countries/kingdoms everyone benefits but the king benefits the most.

The words God and Pharaoh are the same word in two different languages.

http://www.hoax-buster.org and beware of "third party" forgivers. It's their own interest and not your's they have in mind.

Mr Rodriguez thinks the pope forgave the Conquistadors. Did the pope bother to tell Montezuma? of course not. Monte was sent to hell. But did he go there? The pope is a third party forgiver. Third party forgiveness is a booming industry since humans lost their fear of inflicting damage on their fellow man.

Don't forget, "unless you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior you're going to hell." We get that on the highest authority there is, God's representatives, just like it was when Pharaoh sent representative around to recruit an army so he could....?

This is what you believe “Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.” “Hear my voice” “truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.” The words of Jesus “Until seventy times seven.” This is the voice of your god, the son of man. “And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,” “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:” Do you see “My sheep hear my voice” “Hear my voice” “truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.” This is who forgives the sinner creatures. This is the Law “Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the Lord thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.” The son of man is your brother “one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee” Lamech is king of the Romans and Greeks. The son of man is Jesus.

That is one of the cornerstones of the christian faith, unlimited atonement. the son of man has power to forgive sins. jesus forgives “Hear my voice” “truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.” The words of Jesus “Until seventy times seven.” This is the voice of your god, the son of man. “And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." This is the god you worship, he will not deny himself. Look “And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt. If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.” Do you see “ Lamech said unto his wives” This is the lamb of god you are married to.

Forgiveness without Justice Grants Evil Clemency
Here is justice revealed.

And of Gad he said, Blessed be he that enlargeth Gad: he dwelleth as a lion, and teareth the arm with the crown of the head. And he provided the first part for himself, because there, in a portion of the lawgiver, was he seated; and he came with the heads of the people, he executed the justice of the Lord, and his judgments with Israel.

Do you see “Blessed be he that enlargeth Gad: he dwelleth as a lion” “he executed the justice of the Lord, and his judgments with Israel.”

Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities. Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.

The words of Jeremiah, “ I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way” Remember “Blessed be he that enlargeth Gad: he dwelleth as a lion” “he executed the justice of the Lord, and his judgments with Israel.”

O Lord, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return. Therefore I said, Surely these are poor; they are foolish: for they know not the way of the Lord, nor the judgment of their God. I will get me unto the great men, and will speak unto them; for they have known the way of the Lord, and the judgment of their God: but these have altogether broken the yoke, and burst the bonds. Wherefore a lion out of the forest shall slay them, and a wolf of the evenings shall spoil them, a leopard shall watch over their cities: every one that goeth out thence shall be torn in pieces: because their transgressions are many, and their backslidings are increased.

Do you see “they are foolish: for they know not the way of the Lord, nor the judgment of their God.” Whose yoke was put upon the sinner creatures “ but these have altogether broken the yoke:” Look, “ Wherefore a lion out of the forest shall slay them” “Blessed be he that enlargeth Gad: he dwelleth as a lion” “he executed the justice of the Lord, and his judgments with Israel.” Do you see “ a wolf of the evenings shall spoil them”, Saul came as the wolf.

Behold, he shall come up and fly as the eagle, and spread his wings over Bozrah: and at that day shall the heart of the mighty men of Edom be as the heart of a woman in her pangs.

Do you see “he shall come up and fly as the eagle” “heart of the mighty men of Edom” Daniel wrote “And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.” In Revelation it is written “And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.” Ezekiel wrote “And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.” Look “he first face was the face of a cherub” that was the angel of the LORD with the sword, Saul. Look “ second face was the face of a man” That was the son of Joseph, Pharaoh, jesus christ. Look “the third the face of a lion” Blessed be he that enlargeth Gad: he dwelleth as a lion” “he executed the justice of the Lord, and his judgments with Israel.” Look “ the fourth the face of an eagle” That was Esau. Who was Jeremiah?

Blessed be the Lord thy God, which delighted in thee, to set thee on the throne of Israel: because the Lord loved Israel for ever, therefore made he thee king, to do judgment and justice. Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,

Do you see Solomon is blessed “because the Lord loved Israel for ever, therefore made he thee king, to do judgment and justice.” Look “ Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold” this is 666. This is what is written “And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” Do you see “ to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads” that is from the LORD for fulfilling The Passover of the LORD. The christian faithfull eat their own flesh and drink their own blood. Sinner creatures of the faith of Rome call Solomon the beast. He is the son of the LORD. You curse the one who tries to teach you. It is who christians worship, the son of man, jesus, that is the beast.

The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts. To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.

Do you see where Solomon's heart is “The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord” Who did the LORD give wisdom and understanding for judgment, Solomon. “To do justice and judgment“

Here are words from Isaiah:
Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, yea, all ye beasts in the forest. His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

Hey Sam: Have you spoken to the pope or maybe Cardinal McIntyre, (pope's busy?) about returning the gold they looted from Latin America yet? What's the hold up? Gold keeps real good so we know they still got it. In fact, I heard there's a church in Spain that has a solid gold altar, and it also has just a splash of Aztec and Inca blood here and there.

Do you really think Christianity and poverty was a fair exchange? Mr Chavez is taking the initiative, spending some of that Venezuela oil money to make himself an atom bomb, "the exploding kind" so I understand. You don't suppose he intends to "fight old Diablo" do you? Last I heard he was complaining about the smell of brimstone.

Mike: I wonder why we posters (at least many of us) have a deeper understanding of forgiveness than the panelists (at least several of them)?

"Forgiveness without justice grants evil clemency."

I disagree. Forgiveness is within the forgiver. It does not grant absolution.

Each of us must accept responsibility for our own actions. If someone offends me, my hate or resentment toward them would be *MY* action, not theirs. In order to not be poisoned by my own feelings, it is necessary for me to forgive, to release the ill-will. When I have forgiven, I have dealt with my own feelings, but I have not granted absolution. The person who offended me must still be responsible for their own actions.
If the offense is minor, a sincere apology and desire to make good is more than sufficient. In other cases, it is up to society to exact retribution.

We read in Matthew 6:15 that God will not forgive us unless we forgive others. Although it is often hard to do, it is a Christian duty to forgive. Failure to do so would seem to deny oneself salvation.

We read elsewhere that "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord." It's not for me to arrogate that which is God's. Whether society or some other means is God's retribution, I am confident that transgressions do merit and receive punishment.

Mike