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I was very young (maybe as young as 10) when I first heard of "Pascal's Wager". Even at such a young age it struck me as very silly reasoning; or lacking in reason, I should say. (I should also mention that I was still very much under the influence of religion...
It's a waste of time to discuss "The Empty Wager" as anything but a novel statement to dampen intelligent discourse. It's purely a statement that you could (usually) get a child behind because it has no depth. It's a very floral and cute thing to spout out but believers should try something with some substance- which would excuse the divine entirely, so, I would guess that is why we still hear of Pascal's notorious wager.

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A rational person can knowingly will himself to believe a proposition for which he has no evidence? Ah, but true Christians have plenty of evidence in the form of life-changing experience. The Bible is true. The evidence of God is clearly seen in creation. (Romans 1:20) The god of this world has blinded the eyes of those who refuse to believe. (2 Corinthians 4:4) Pascal was only trying to remove that blindfold in the same way any good person would warn others to flee from a burning building. I am thankful for his efforts. Trust Jesus and live or reject him and die in your sins; it is a choice we all must make either willingly or by convincing ourselves that it doesn't exist.

Great job Sam! I have only one additional thought. Pascal did not live in a time when there was 33,000 denominations in the "christian " church and that many of those denominations hold incompatible views on doctrines that are considered necessary conditions for salvation.

I think the rhetorically most efficient way of countering a person who envokes Pascal's Wager is to say "thank you for rejecting Christianity and Islam". After all, these faiths reject the idea that mere belief in God is sufficient for salvation. Christias are supposed to believe that even the fiercely God-believing Muslims and Jews will necessarily go to hell, and that even devout Christians can only be saved by the Grace of God, which is arbitrary from our point of view. So where Christians and Muslims would agree with the negative part of the wager - that rejecting God sends you to hell - they fully disagree with the positive part, that accepting God sends you to heaven regardless of religion.

Even if you have not bothered to read my other posts; let me ask you:
Is Pascal's empty wager half empty or half full?

Obviously Pascal was an agnostic. He was intelligent enough to dispel the Biblical God concepts but also intelligent enough to be uncertain as to what might have been created by something that might not be explained by the probabilities of any understood mathematics.

Pascal did not know that television or airplanes would be common in our century. He probably wouldn't give them much odds of being possible... but we know that they are. That is because they can be made by Man. Man has yet to create life from inorganic chemicals. Man may never be able to do so. Knowing much about DNA, stem cells, etc has not enabled man to create any high form of life yet. When man can do so I'll bet on there being no creator or at least give that idea greater odds...before that I won't believe in anybodie's god ...but I won't eliminate the fact that a creator, by my own limited definition, may exist. My definition is that if Man can't ever do something then som,e supreme being might have done so because there is after all lots of life on Earth.

I am wot I am.
--Popeye the Sailor Man--

I forgot to mention that in addition to the two Pascal wager conditions there may be a third condition and that is that every living thing was created by Artificial Intelligent Design. This opens up another possibility as to who or what we can pray to or curse for anything we like or don't exactly care for about nature.

I admit that I can't prove or disprove this possibility. I can't prove or disprove the other two either. Pascal didn't think about it because he only knew about natural intelligence before there were computers that had hard drives with minds of their own sand irrelevant pop ups to curse at.

A wager is a bet... and in this sort of bet who is the dealer? I am an atheist but I am also a skeptic. As a skeptic I do not logically believe in anything that I can't prove myself except for a few laws of physics, and thus I only believe in the Laws of physics that were proved and the basis for all practical engineering. They basically include only the laws of Newton and Ohm. Everything else is up for grabs. Now I see lots of problems with what you write Sam...even though I am an atheist. Much of the devastation and murder attributed to religious differences might also have been motivated for economic, nationalistic or political reasons with religions being used for excuses to fool the gullible.

Neither Darwin's theory of Evolution, in serial steps on a flow chart or Behe's theory of intelligent design by mathematically miraculous parallel steps can prove or disprove the concept of a creator. In spite of this with little knowledge of these theories debates are held that have little to do with rational inquiry, secular humanism or Pascal's wager. This is because logically there may not be a yes or no answer to either the Pascal bet or the certitude that a theory must prove anything to be true or false about creation or religion. Even when we can understand something with a good degree of scientific certitude we must allow for the
"don't know and don't care case" that really makes our hypothesis irrelevant.

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I don't think it is fair to attack Pascal's wager without first examining the rest of his Pensees. It is very clear that the wager is not intended to create belief. It is merely a hot poker to get people to seek. People will not be convinced to have faith from other people. It can only come through reading the Bible and discovering God's grace for themselves. If the fear of God triggers someone to seek answers to life's questions, then I think the Wager does exactly what its author intended.

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Another problem with Pascal's Wager is that it expresses lack of faith!

Assume there is a God.
You come before him on Judgment Day and say
"Hey, Dude, you were the safe way to bet."

Where do you think you will end up?

Whoever bets on God dooms himself exactly because he merely BETS on God.

That's NOT faith, Dude!

Is it just me or can Sam Harris make anything put in parentheses sound offensive?

Sam is brilliant as usual.
But for...uh, Jupiter's sake.
Get another photo of him for the site!

Sam is brilliant as usual.
But for...uh, Jupiter's sake.
Get another photo of him for the site!

Sam is brilliant as usual.
But for...uh, Jupiter's sake.
Get another photo of him for the site!

Pascal's wager falsely assumes only two courses.
What if there is a "GOD" but the way to salvation
is not in believing in GOD based on faith, that may
actually get you into hell. The way to heaven may be
learning the physical laws of the universe GOD created and belief in him is irrelevant.
With all the scientific inaccuracies in the Bible not to mention its condoning of slavery and second class treatment of women it can easily be argued that it is more the work of the devil than GOD.

One thing that proves to me how ridiculous religion is: I was baptised as a teenager and I really beleived in what I was doing. After I grew up, I realized how stupid the whole religious system is. According to the Bible, I am going to heaven. I professed my faith in the appropriate way, therefore I have my ticket to enter eternal bliss. I continue to live my life in a way that does not harm others and I help wherever I can. The fact that I have not been going to church doesn't matter- all I have to do is make a deathbed confession and I'm covered. Or, some religions say I'm not covered- the convicted murderer who goes to the prison chapel each day to pray may get in-- or not. How stupid! And, if there was to be a God, won't he take whoever he wants? There is just no way any of this can be true!

Well Said.

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11. Women who love too much by Robin Norwood

12. The Casanova Complex by Peter Trachtenberg

It goes without saying of course that in this day and age of sexual "revolution" there are female versions of the Casanova, women who cheat their partners and there are men who love too much. Men and women are truly equals both in virtue and vice.

Since my suggestions for reading (to get a balanced view of sexuality) was deleted on another thread, I post it here (as much of it as I can remember):

1. Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Richard Bach

2. Siddharta by Hermann Hesse

3. Mount Misery by Samuel Shem (a hilarious take on Freudian psychoanalysis)

4. The Art of Loving by Erich Fromm

5. The Road Less Travelled by Scott M Peck

6. An apropos to Lady Chatterlee's Lover, (essay) by D H Lawrence

7. Sexuality (essay) by C S Lewis

8. Books by Patrick Carnes: Don't Call it Love, Out of the Shadows, Betrayal Bond...

9. The Book of Proverbs (The Old Testament)

10. The Ramayana (Hindu Epic)

After posting my initial comment, I took a look to other commentators. I think that many rationally proned people would agree with me, and I most certainly do not want to offend any person that feels otherwise, but each time somebody defends his or her faith on account of a man or god, whose accountability rests on the far past (like Budha, Jesus, or whoever)saying I am a Buddhist, or I am a Christian, etc, I cannot help but think in the following comparison, I imagine a person two thosuands yeras from now, proclaming: I am a Mickey Mouseian, or a Donald Duckian...Can just we grasp whatever we could from God HEAR AND NOW without resorting to some past, unprovable and alien experience?

Manuel Gerardo Monasterio
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www.foroplanetario.com.ar

Sam Harris is, together wih Richard Dawkins and a little bunch of first line scientific writers,one of the few that is confronting the madness of a belief structure that has, systematically and inexorably, led to innumerable colective catastrophes. He is worried, very much so, and with outstanding reason.Religious belief as has been preserved by organized religions, is a calamity that has to be confronted by rational minds all over the world.The clash between those beliefs and super-advanced technology will provoke further holocausts, poisoning, in way to that final destiny,our daily lives in every possible manner. 100% support to Dr. Harris work.

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Suppose I said the following:

"I have had an epiphany. I was visited in my sleep last night by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. He told me that every night before sleep we should repeat 'spaghetti is awesome' 9 times whilst hopping on one leg. The mighty one said that if we did not do this then we would go to noodley hell after our deaths but would go to noodley heaven if we did. Pascal's wager implies we should do as I profess - it's a good bet."

So why don't we? The fact that the above proposed behaviour's only possible source of credibility is derived from Pascal's wager is telling.

Let A + B denote the union of the sets of statements A and B.
If X(Y) is the threat 'you will suffer after death if you don't believe the statements Y but go to heaven if you do' then Pascal's wager implies we should believe both A + X(A) and Not(A) + X(Not(A)). In other words we should believe A and Not(A) simultaneously!

It should be clear that adding threats to any statement does not make that statement any more likely to be true.

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PS: On a Muslim thread I had already mentioned that when two people fall in love (provided they continue to cultivate love actively after the intense romantic phase has passed), they act instinctively just as Jesus taught (even if they are atheists or behaved like bonobo apes before) - they want to remain together for the rest of their lives, remain faithful to each other as a given (feeling completely ripped apart if the other partner cheats), are able to deal with temptation from outside and are not even tempted themselves (or if tempted they are able to overcome it and say "no" to it) no matter how beautiful the other person nor how seductive a game another plays (for they find beauty in the one they love and love is what gives anything value and lasting beauty); and stick with each other through thick and thin, through sickness and sorrow until death does them apart.

Most people understand the value of a lasting companionship (centuries of stable relationships and families practised because it was forced by society) and hence choose to settle for one partner for the rest of their lives whether they are believers in God or not. They choose to invest their creative energies in pursuits other than chasing and conquering attractive members of the opposite sex, which religion tells us is an insatiable need arising from the false ego, and has nothing to do with a legitimate human need for contentment and complete happiness of the human being.

Those who preach hedonism and bonobo ape sexual behaviour as religion get their following of course. But whether such hedonistic materialism serves the best long term interests of the society has been disproved by the modern day chaos stemming from quarters practising extreme sexual liberation. The Indian sex guru Rajneesh is a case in point and has a lesson to teach too: he carried the 'sex as religion' experiment to the very extreme and despite all the impressive psychological techniques used, created the perfect disaster.

As creatures with free will, we can choose the chaos of our liking of course.

Dear CHAM

I'm going to give a go at the questions you raised, tricky as they are. My delay in the response is due to being caught up with other urgent matters, not because I was spending all the time thinking these issues through!

I do not think anyone denies the fact that ALL human beings have a legitimate need for one sexual partner. The problem starts when sex is equated with love, i.e sex is love. Sex is NOT love. Sex is merely an instinct and as such needs to be regulated and tamed like any other instinct. Noboby applauds a glutton. But the society tends to applaud successful skirt/pant-chasing Casanovas, females who lure the most men into their sex toilets. (The Buddhists tend to refer to casual sex as using the toilet.)

The Bible makes it clear in the very first chapter of Genesis: "It is not good for man to be alone." According to God's plan, sex is an integral element in a companionship in the context of a loving, and committed relationship. So that point is not even up for debate.

The question is: what about those who need a legitimate sexual partner in a meaningful relationship and are not married, or what about married partners who love their partners and expect faithfulness. How does one find sex within companionships in a society which offers sex as recreation? Young sultry seductress, whether married or not, get far more sexual partners than they need and yet their need remains insatiable. Those who are not sultry seductresses or young enough, find no partners at all as a result. Men get the best of such "liberation" on the part of women because they aren't exactly excited about sex which involves committment.

Religions merely give instructions on how everyone in the society could have that legitimate need for sex satisfied in a meaningful relationship - in a companionship which is based on love and committment. Love and committment is after all not a fickle feeling, but a choice one makes to answer that legitimate need and one should not have to depend on answering one's legitimate need like winning a lottery. But if the society adopts as norm bonobo ape sexual behaviour as "liberation," then satisfying legitimate needs of a lifelong relationship and stable family becomes a matter of winning the lottery. But "liberation" from what to what purpose is the question. Just as human beings, (unlike animals), eat more than they need, they similarly crave for sex with more than one partner even though they don't need it. In the animal, sex remains a pure instinct. But we all know that in human beings that is not the case. Sex can be used as a power tool (done mostly by women who are endowed by nature with extremely seductive bodies), men do it in other ways, and in general human beings use the sex instinct in a whole lot of other ways that are not found in animals.

As for Catholic priests and mandatory celibacy: I do agree that it opens the door to all sorts of problems. All of the Apostles of Jesus were married. Paul, who was not an Apostle in the lifetime of Jesus, was the only one who was celibate. Mandatory celibacy for priests was introduced much later in the Catholic church.

As mentioned in my earlier post, we need a realistic solution to the sexually liberated society of today. A proper sex education very early on highlighting the use and abuse of sex; and returning to the practice of early marriage is one important way to answer the legitimate sexual need in a meaningful way. Evolving more and more into bonobo ape behaviour is certainly not the ideal nor the answer, even if the rigidity advocated by religions may not always be realised. It is necessary to keep the highest ideal in mind and try to work towards it as best as possible rather than make the lowest denominator (bonobo ape sexual behaviour)as the new standard.

If religions can't explain the difference between black and white, who can? Of course religions realise that white is not the level at which human beings live, but that is what one is supposed to aspire towards. At least Christianity recognises that we are all sinners in need of mercy and forgiveness while we work towards living the life Jesus proclaimed God had in mind for the greatest happiness of human beings, whom God created and loves, more than human beings love themselves.

Just my thoughts for the moment.

Best wishes
Soja

I think Sam Harris is an educated and reasonable man, yet I think the evidence he sees leads him to the wrong conclusion. I am a Christian, and though this may not be the place for me in the eyes of many here, you can't just have a hundred people in the same room agreeing on the same thing without outside accountability, or parity of beliefs.

Wrong conclusion 1: religion has no value to the world. I would counter that Christianity is the one true religion, because it's not actually a religion with rules and customs followed incessantly; it's a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Jesus did everything needed to provide a living testimony for everyone (not just Jews, Americans, Europeans, etc.). Blaming Him or God the Father for the sinfulness of mankind and the evils they have wrought is not going to provide any answers. If a Muslim terrorist kills people because he thinks Allah receives warriors and martyrs with open arms, he has been deceived, because any god worthy of worship does not condone murder as worship.

The danger I see with atheism is that there's no acceptable moral conduct in its philosophy that isn't shaped somehow by the Bible. Case in point: if right and wrong are simply what we make of it, who decided what was right or wrong to begin with? Even religious folk snap and kill people, so how do we figure that we could figure out what was correct for ourselves? We could follow the code of conduct for the animal kingdom, and many actually do in their lawlessness (tongue in cheek), but I don't think the human race functions well without a standard morality. Is that possible? Probably not with human sinfulness, but that doesn't mean morality is useless.

I also think of natural selection and the theory of evolution, and I have trouble thinking that science is the supreme authority over mankind. Same with philosophy. Without a higher power to create and govern incredibly complex lifeforms such as ourselves, it's hard not to think of picking up a box of Lego's and shaking them into building a castle. The chances of that are nearly impossible to attempt. I can't shake a box of loose Lego's into forming a train, or a police station, or a car...why think nature just bumbled its way until it got it right? Somehow the chances of natural selection occurring probably outlast even the 4.5 billion year lifespan of the Earth - that is, in that space of time, it's hard for such a small chance of life forming through evolution.

What it really comes down to is this: The Bible explains clearly those who don't believe in it, what they value instead, and why they do. And from what I see in nonchristians, they confirm the Bible's words. In that light, nonchristians are the ones who look uneducated. I was a nonchristian myself for 17 years, so I can understand the opposite view that none of us have seen God, prolly not in the last 6,000 years. But the Bible is enough for most people who follow Jesus.

I think that Christianity implores more peace and love to others, as well as a reason WHY, that other religions and philosophies don't have.

I do my best to question everything in terms of not blindly believing what I'm told. And believe it or not, there are millions of educated, well-meaning Christians whose only crime is not doing enough. If you believe religion is a poison or deficiency, you have admitted the lesser status of the majority of the world. Reason and morality do poorly in converting the homeless, the sick, and the dying. Atheism has its limits too. Pascal's wager wasn't meant to singlehandedly convert people; it was using simplified terms to support belief in a God. NO ONE should base their faith on that wager, because it CAN be seen as a fearful decision and an insurance policy for the next life. True faith, and true change is not out of fear or ridicule...it's out of love. God is love. Too often, religion and atheism are ridicule. You won't win many over to your side through that. Therefore I contend that atheism is not the answer to a divided world in itself.

I think Sam Harris is an educated and reasonable man, yet I think the evidence he sees leads him to the wrong conclusion. I am a Christian, and though this may not be the place for me in the eyes of many here, you can't just have a hundred people in the same room agreeing on the same thing without outside accountability, or parity of beliefs.

Wrong conclusion 1: religion has no value to the world. I would counter that Christianity is the one true religion, because it's not actually a religion with rules and customs followed incessantly; it's a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Jesus did everything needed to provide a living testimony for everyone (not just Jews, Americans, Europeans, etc.). Blaming Him or God the Father for the sinfulness of mankind and the evils they have wrought is not going to provide any answers. If a Muslim terrorist kills people because he thinks Allah receives warriors and martyrs with open arms, he has been deceived, because any god worthy of worship does not condone murder as worship.

The danger I see with atheism is that there's no acceptable moral conduct in its philosophy that isn't shaped somehow by the Bible. Case in point: if right and wrong are simply what we make of it, who decided what was right or wrong to begin with? Even religious folk snap and kill people, so how do we figure that we could figure out what was correct for ourselves? We could follow the code of conduct for the animal kingdom, and many actually do in their lawlessness (tongue in cheek), but I don't think the human race functions well without a standard morality. Is that possible? Probably not with human sinfulness, but that doesn't mean morality is useless.

I also think of natural selection and the theory of evolution, and I have trouble thinking that science is the supreme authority over mankind. Same with philosophy. Without a higher power to create and govern incredibly complex lifeforms such as ourselves, it's hard not to think of picking up a box of Lego's and shaking them into building a castle. The chances of that are nearly impossible to attempt. I can't shake a box of loose Lego's into forming a train, or a police station, or a car...why think nature just bumbled its way until it got it right? Somehow the chances of natural selection occurring probably outlast even the 4.5 billion year lifespan of the Earth - that is, in that space of time, it's hard for such a small chance of life forming through evolution.

What it really comes down to is this: The Bible explains clearly those who don't believe in it, what they value instead, and why they do. And from what I see in nonchristians, they confirm the Bible's words. In that light, nonchristians are the ones who look uneducated. I was a nonchristian myself for 17 years, so I can understand the opposite view that none of us have seen God, prolly not in the last 6,000 years. But the Bible is enough for most people who follow Jesus.

I think that Christianity implores more peace and love to others, as well as a reason WHY, that other religions and philosophies don't have.

I do my best to question everything in terms of not blindly believing what I'm told. And believe it or not, there are millions of educated, well-meaning Christians whose only crime is not doing enough. If you believe religion is a poison or deficiency, you have admitted the lesser status of the majority of the world. Reason and morality do poorly in converting the homeless, the sick, and the dying. Atheism has its limits too. Pascal's wager wasn't meant to singlehandedly convert people; it was using simplified terms to support belief in a God. NO ONE should base their faith on that wager, because it CAN be seen as a fearful decision and an insurance policy for the next life. True faith, and true change is not out of fear or ridicule...it's out of love. God is love. Too often, religion and atheism are ridicule. You won't win many over to your side through that. Therefore I contend that atheism is not the answer to a divided world in itself.

Or as I once saw it written:

"God does not believe in atheists.
Therefore atheists do not exist."

Just three things:
1. If you are prepared to claim that God does not exist, at least be honest with yourself and ask yourself if your REAL motivation for doing this is because it's easier than having to deal with your predicament if God actually does exist. Why? Because then you would be forced to do something about it.
2. If you are prepared to claim that God does not exist, at least be honest with yourself and decide whether what you are saying is that it is ACTUALLY thus not possible for God to exist. As...er...'Jesus' wrote earlier in this thread: "You take it as a 100% certainty that there is no Hell or Satan. But nothing - let me repeat - nothing is 100% certain."
Can you in all honesty tell me, with 100% certainty, that God does not exist? Can you PROVE that? If so, I'd like to hear how...
3. Can you prove that any actions of humans performed in the name of God are actually God's will? Can you prove without a doubt, for example, that killing in the name of God is what God wants?

If, as some have suggested, using Pascal's Wager to incline people towards (Christianity) makes God far smaller than he may be, isn't summarising how you view a potentially infinite God by pointing to any actions of anyone who claims to be acting in his name, also reducing the scope of God just a tad?

Don't, for example, discard the value of my opinions but wanting to quickly classify me as a Christian, when I am not one of the "sheeple".

Dear CHAM

Thanks for your response. I needed to take a longish break from The Post On Faith forum for reasons beyond my control. I will post a detailed response to your post addressed to me - soon.

I take it you are American. I wish you, Sam Harris and all Americans who visit this thread, a Happy 4th of July! Have fun! Long live the American dream for ALL Americans!

Best wishes
Soja

I speak as someone who believes there is a God.
Mr. Harris makes yet another sincere comment on insincerity and hypocrisy. To pretend to believe in a God through fear of being punished if there does turn out to be one, well, that's simply abhorent. Living a lie. Just Mr. Pascal's sense of humour, perhaps.

Greg,
You are in the wrong discussion. This thread is for people who have chosen reason and common sense. Come back when you are wearing big boy pants.

Greg,
You are on the wrong website. This website is for people who have chosen reason and common sense. Come back when you are wearing big boy pants.

It's nonsense to talk about violence perpetrated in the name of God. Of the millions of people killed in wars and persecutions of the 20th Century the smaller fraction were killed not because of wars between different religions but because of wars over resources, politics.

Communist societies which were officially atheist killed far more people in the last 90 years than theistic governments. Estimates between Russia, Red China and the rest are around 100million people. On top of that we have abortion, a product of a less religious society, which must have killed even more people when considering surgical abortions alone.

However even all that suffering compared to the infinite suffering the damned choose in the fires of Hell by rejecting God is but nothing.

I still think Pascal's Wager holds true.

You cannot judge or comprehend an omnipotent being with your puny little brain and to think you can is moronic. Most of the people above are lying to themselves to salve their own consciences so how would they be any worse off forcing themselves into religious practice. After all perhaps true and sincere belief only comes after one makes an effort and tries.

Dear Soja,

Research may say that people are happiest in a committed relationship, but not everyone has been so lucky as to find a partner they can spend the rest of their lives with. The biological drive is immense, the need for affection, if even for a short encounter, overwhelming. The Catholic Church priests can speak well to that.

The elements that you mentioned are part of life. If we could stop vilifying people and open our arms to them to help them, maybe we could make this world a better place.

A good place to start is by throwing out the god that requires a black and white look at the world.

Civilized society should take heed to Sam Harris's and Richard Dawkins's philosophies if it expects to survive. Religion will be it's demize.

Civilized society should take heed to Sam Harris's and Richard Dawkins's philosophies if it expects to survive. Religion will be it's demize.

Sam Harris is the last Bodhisatva in Buddhism

I find that when I look around and see the narcissism in our world and in my community, that it stems from primarily religious believers. Almost 80 percent of those who live in the US have some sort of belief in a God or higher power. It is my understanding, from what has been demonstrated to me, that many "believers" have a built in anti-morality device. With all the proclamations of morality and moral leadership, Christians are free to commit sins because they have a way out. I do not believe that this is a conscious decision, but more a de facto state of being. Christians are more free to commit crimes against their fellow man because God will forgive you for your sins.

As far as a committed sexual relationship, I've never read anything where Mr. Harris has said that humans cannot have a healthy monogamous relationship, or that they were bad for anyone. He has simply stated that perhaps the focus of faith should be less on a natural act, such as sex, and more on healing the wounds of a nation divided. Or helping your fellow man to eat, find housing, find a job, or even be responsible about sex. Abstinence and monogamy are wonderful concepts, but only on paper. The reality is that most kids will lose their virginity before their 20th birthday, and 35% (more or less) of husbands in committed marriages will have an affair. In the US, 53% of marriages end in divorce, most of them in southern communities with high rates of regular church attendance.

I would like to make one statement about atheism. I am an atheist and a believer. I believe that there is no god. I believe that mankind has a duty to be responsible to itself, that all individuals must take care of one another. I believe that in order for us to continue to improve our world we need to put aside our foolish beliefs in cosmic superheroes and put our faith in humanity. If all of us wake up everyday and make a commitment to be personally responsible for our own deeds, thoughts, etc, we would see the goodness of man.

Dear Mr Harris

In the debate with Rick Warren, you said the following:

"Our morality, the meaning we find in life, is a lived experience that I believe has, to use a loaded term, a spiritual component. I believe it is possible to radically transform our experience of the world for the better, very much the way someone like Jesus, or someone like Buddha, witnessed. There is wisdom in our spiritual, contemplative literature, and I am quite interested in understanding it. I think that meditation and prayer affect us for the better. The question is, what is reasonable to believe on the basis of those transformations?"

In the essay above you wrote, "What have been the psychological costs imposed by Christianity’s anxiety about sex these last seventy generations?"

I'm glad you agree in the very least religion isn't all about hating everybody and going on murderous rampages. As for the "anxiety about sex for the past seventy generations," in Christianity and other religions (the only exception being for Muslim males) surely you are aware that monogamous marriage (and all societies in the past got girls married as soon as they reached menarchee and the young men were not much older than the girls whom they married) is considered the norm, and only sex outside marriage is condemned and not sexuality per se? Is atheism with unlimited sexual permissiveness (someone referred to bonobo ape morality with serial polygamy and polyandry as the ideal solution, ?with or without the paedophilia and homosexuality of the bonobos) the answer to HIV/AIDS and other STD; teenage pregnancies and teenage mothers with women stuck in a cycle of poverty as a result; high rate of abortions (I happen to believe a human being becomes a human being in development at the time of conception/implantation in the womb and not at the time of birth); single parent families with revolving door fathers; high divorce rates due to adultery (not everyone are hardened enough to accept adultery as a matter of course and react badly to being cheated); women my age (nearly forty eight) who are forced to remain single because finding a partner would take a miracle due to the fact that men my age would like to have only recreational sex with women young enough to be their daughters or granddaughters; sexual addiction in various forms because sexual permissiveness and constant sexual stimulation is seen as a sign of freedom and liberation and proof of virility?

Studies have shown that committed relationships are best for human happiness, something that religions have always claimed and incorporated as a moral law.

I'm not a sexual prude and I do believe that we need to find a realistic solution to the fact that there are no more marriages arranged by parents for all women when we reach menarche or after divorce or failed love, which is a fact of love of life these days and human beings need to be given a second or third chance at happiness with another partner if necessary. But tell me what happiness sexual liberation for the sake of liberation has brought.

Might you then be more open to the wisdom that someone like Jesus taught with regard to these matters, long before there were studies to prove that committed lifelong monogamous relationships based on love and mutual fidelity serve human happiness best?

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

I wish to clarify that I do NOT mean atheists cannot be selfless or good. Some of the best persons I have known/know are atheists, and some of the worst have been believers. I'm only making the point that religions provide the best basis for a common morality and personal examples of selflessness set by founders of religions like Christianity and Buddhism for instance, who gave clear instructions to their followers to imitate them. That is quite different from the individual morality that is inevitable when there is no religion. Which human being has the right to impose their own morality on another, if each one has the right to be right about their own idea of morality? A homicidal psychopath would have as much right to his morality as anyone else.

I wish I could find the selflessness that atheists so love to claim is commonplace because it is the natural state of the human being. But I have found it mostly in books written by them and on these posts. In real life I look around and see mostly narcissistic materialists who don't care in the least about their fellow human beings. The empathy, the selfless love...where is it? It is hard enough for people who believe in God and eternity to choose goodness and many times they don't. Religions have an explanation - the free will with which God does not interfere. Please show me the world sans religion where selfless love and service is commonplace and I would love to live there!

Pascal's Wager should be re-badged as The Coward's Wager. It is the wager of someone who has the intellect - as Blaise Pascal surely had - to strongly suspect that something is "suss," but who does not possess the courage to voice his doubt or disbelief. This pusillanimity eventually leads to the Inquisition and the Taliban, where the deluded and the plain insane control every facet of one's existence.

AJ - I think the next step is ... where do we go from here?

This is the age-old question. If there is no meaning to life, what is the point of living? On a strictly pragmatic level, you’ll be dead soon enough, so why hasten the end? You might as well enjoy yourself while you are here. Religion might counter that such a narcissistic POV would lead to selfish, even evil behavior, such as raping and pillaging. Perhaps. Yet morality and empathy appear to be part of our evolutionary history and biology (Hauser, M. D. 2006. Moral minds: how nature designed our universal sense of right and wrong. Ecco, New York.), suggesting otherwise. Because we are social animals, this inner morality and empathy actually do give our lives meaning beyond our own specific circumstances, though I’ll get to that later.

In “Slaughter House Five”, Billy Pilgrim becomes unstuck in time. Though the universe will end due to an unfortunate accident by Tralfamadorians testing rocket fuel, Billy also learns that individual moments are essentially timeless, and he can choose which of those to dwell in. Were it only so for most humans. When we get unstuck in time we usually get stuck in a very specific place; aka the loony bin. Nonetheless, most of us have had such transcendent moments that are almost over before they happen, will never recur in exactly the same manner, and yet are of a kind. They tend to make us pay attention to what is important.

I was in the Pine Nut Range one fall afternoon, with white, fluffy cumulus scudding overhead, casting moving shadows and sunlight on the far hillside, covered in Piñon Pine and Juniper. For some reason it was transcendently beautiful. I knew it would never be exactly like this again, with the laughing Piñon Jays and that moment carried by the wind forever. It was so rich and so poignant, and yet, I also knew that such similar moments had happened before in this very same location, on a late fall afternoon, through millennia. They were not exactly the same, but they were, in a sense, timeless. And I understood if we make a choice, we can imbue many of the moments with that richness during our short stay.

I also knew what was most important and what would surely end with our lives; the people we care most about. That is such a sad, utterly lonely state of affairs. However, just by caring, we make both their lives and our lives better. We can pay attention to those special people. Because we have such a short time, we must pay attention. We can also make choices that make the world a better place for those living now and in the future. Life is really not all for naught. There may be no eternal salvation waiting for us if we do good things (or hellfire if we do bad), but those good things do have positive effects on our world and the living.

to Soja John Thaikatill

Nietzsche is dead.
God lives
in the imagination
with Santa and the Easter Bunnyrabbit.
and of course the FSM.

Just an observation regarding the balance of this noticeboard. I read through many posted comments before I found any that proposed a contrary perspective. No doubt there are those out there that have the time available to carry out a statistical analysis of the above comments.

I agree that there is no way to prove God's existence. Even if spiritualism is only caused by a flow of neurotransmitters through our living brains it feels authentic. We can second guess ourselves with arguments that LSD and psychosis can provide experiences that can feel authentic but at some point we must pragmatically decide if we are alive or on an acid trip. Of course, we may be wrong in any case.

"God is dead." - Nietzsche

God's reply: "Nietzche is dead."

To: John Conolley (USA)
From: Soja John Thaikattil

God and Poetry

Your religion is rubbish,
An atheist poet once said to me.
But why? in surprise asked I.
You have no poetry, replied he.

So? What makes you such a fool? queried I,
Everything they say at your atheist club
Is not the Gospel truth;
To believers the world owes some of its best poetry.

I have God and poetry in this life;
And in the next I have more God and more poetry.

© Soja John Thaikattil 2007
POSTED MAY 6, 2007 7:47 PM

Sam Harris,
Pascal did not intent to manipulate the people. He had a profound knowledge and he tried to share it with others just as Sam Harris has a knowledge ( conviction) which he tries to convey to others. There is no difference between Pascal and Harris in the action undertaken. The only difference is the opposite view points. If Sam Harris had Pascals's profound knowledge, he as well would sing the same song. The bottom line here is that humans are (involuntarily) singers. Each of us must sing a song: divine or human ideals, we are free to choose the theme of the song we sing. While Sam Harris joins the choir of "no god" there are others who choose different choirs with divine or human ideologies. Lenin, Stalin, Hitler and all other totalitarians had nothing to do with divine choirs. They were from Sam Harris choir. The damage their ideologies caused to humanity is not ancient but recent. Again before you choose a song to sing (which we must) make certain you are not making false tunes. Your tunes Sam Harris do not sound classical. Your tones are today's pop.
Tessa

Sam Harris,
Pascal did not intent to manipulate the people. He had a profound knowledge and he tried to share it with others just as Sam Harris has a knowledge ( conviction) which he tries to convey to others. There is no difference between Pascal and Harris in the action undertaken. The only difference is the opposite view points. If Sam Harris had Pascals's profound knowledge, he as well would sing the same song. The bottom line here is that humans are (involuntarily) singers. Each of us must sing a song: divine or human ideals, we are free to choose the theme of the song we sing. While Sam Harris joins the choir of "no god" there are others who choose different choirs with divine or human ideologies. Lenin, Stalin, Hitler and all other totalitarians had nothing to do with divine choirs. They were from Sam Harris choir. The damage their ideologies caused to humanity is not ancient but recent. Again before you choose a song to sing (which we must) make certain you are not making false tunes. Your tunes Sam Harris do not sound classical. Your tones are today's pop.
Tessa

Hi Ladies!

Happy Mother's Day to ALL of YOU!

Hello Gentlemen!

Happy Mother's Day to ALL the lovely LADIES in your lives too!

With love,

Malini

Another cost of religion I'd add is the deaths of countless children who die because of delayed or denial of medical care because of their parents' religious beliefs or belief in the power of prayer. In the rare instances when such parents are prosecuted, the case is always defended as a case of freedom of religious practice - the PARENTS' religion. The child doesn't live long enough to have divergent religious/nonreligious views. Even when such parents are convicted, they get the lightest sentences of all homicide cases [children who kill parents, even after horrific abuse, receive the longest of all homicide cases].

Here's the thing - there is precedent for holding First Amendment freedoms & rights in abeyance until the child reaches legal majority. We don't allow parents to vote a child's vote, or take property the child owns as a gift, or bind children in contracts with other parties [there are exceptions when there's a contract involving the child's work, as in entertainment, but in most families this is not relevant].

So why not treat the choice of religious activity to the adult as we do with the vote? The Amish do this already, and they are one of the fastest-growing religions in America.

Hi Bernie

It is wonderful that you are posting your selection of poems again. I enjoyed all three of them(posted 21 April 2007 5:35 & 9:32 PM and 28 April 3:55 PM). And yes it was nice to read your 'Scotch' too.

Hi Sam
"There is no harm in beliving in a religon"

Tell that to the poor girl who was stoned to death in Iraq, the luanicy must stop.

Keep it up Old Boy

I think the next step is ... where do we go from here? It is one thing to be an advocate for change (although there is certainly a Don Quixotesque futility to this proposition). It is another to define meaning and purpose in the absence of god(s). Certainly Darwin and Dennett and Hawkings move us along the path, but consider ...

Humans are so fragile, so destructive, and so susceptible to catastrophic loss (religion being among potential causes, with or without wars, disasters, disease, climate change, mass delusions, etc.), and our history so brief, how do we define our purpose, the meaning of our existence? If there is no "life after death" (and all known evidence would suggest this is our only "existence") and we have no rational or reasonable expectation to be around as a species in, say, 1,000, 50,000, 500,000, or 5 million years from now, what are make of our existence?

The problem with taking the red pill is that it is that it only leaves the question unanswered, and it can be very bleak and lonely out here ... which is probably what lead us down the path of religious self-delusion in the first place.

I cannot make myself believe in God, as my rational mind will not allow it (thanks in part to Mr. Harris). I also see nothing in mankind that suggests we as a species will survive our existence ... and must acknowledge that perhaps Nietzche was right.

The poet, Shelley, as might be expected, put it very well:
"This is the pivot upon which all religions turn: they all assume that it is in our power to believe or not to believe; whereas the mind can believe only that which it thinks true. A human being can be supposed accountable only for those actions which are influenced by his will. But belief is utterly distinct from and unconnected with volition; it is the apprehension of the agreement or disagreement of the ideas that compose any proposition. Belief is a passion or involuntary operation of the mind; and, like other passions, its intensity is precisely proportionate to the degree of excitement. Volition is essential to merit or demerit. But the Christian religion attaches the highest possible degree of merit and demerit to that which is worthy of neither, and which is totally unconnected with the peculiar faculty of the mind the presence of which is essential to their being."

Pascal's wager is inherently flawed in that it assumes that God/Goddess/Gods is/are as sectarian and narcissistic as the vast majority of those who believe in he/she/it/them actually are. If God/Goddes/Gods is/are at all forgiving of honest error, he/she/it/they will not damn me to an eternity of torture. In fact, if he/she/it/they do move in mysterious ways, then he/she/it/they may very well have created me with my capacity for disbelief for his/her/its/their mysterious purposes. These people have created a concept of God that is as petty and sectarian and sadomasochistic as they are. If there is indeed a God/Goddess/Dieties Plural, and he/she/it/they can't forgive honest error, then we are ALL in a lot of trouble no matter what we believe in.

As always I marvel when people who claim to be religious take such crass views of it, and there are few things as crass as Pascal's wager. We might as well choose which religion has the least frightening vision of hell, as we're all destined to end up in somebody's hell (unless we can manage to simultaneously believe in every religion in existence.)

My goodness Andy! I thought your only connection with Scotland was the great Scottish name you are blessed with.
But here ye are sounding like a true native Scot! Ye’ve got the accent bang on!
How many talents d’ye have at all!

And Andy, I second your vote on Sam. It’s better he occupies himself writing books for us rather than take up time reading these lengthy blogs, especially if any of us should catch fire as Sam seems such a compassionate lad I’m sure he would douse the conflagration by all means available and not excluding in the manner Leona suggests!
So don’t light up or even lighten up as Leona has it or the prospects are ye’ll burn!

Bernie, no apollo needed. Witty badinage among friends to lighten up the daily blog is welcome. I'm honored tae've clashed words wi'ye.

I vote we leave Sam in peace to finish his thesis.

Andy, I sincerely hope you will accept my apologies for the scorn and disrespect I've shown towards you so far which was all down to ignorance.
It has just hit me what a wonderful writer you are and so erudite.
If you could sustain the literary fireworks to booklenth I'm sure it would sell well!

Kind regards,

Bernie:
The Prophet Sam is (or would be) missing something - remember the antediluvian BBC radio star Arthur Fallowfield - "I think the answer lies in the soil!"

Janine:
Sam is (or would be) well advised to check out your quantum philosophy and see "What the Bleep?!" Something to be treasured there certainly is (or quiz? - by analogy with bits and qubits). As for selling the One, one feels the call (as astronaut Story Musgrave said about Mars) ... but, as you say, the Koran ... does anyone else see the analogy to that more recent work of, er, inspired prophecy, Nietzsche's "Also sprach Zarathustra"? How does one insert the subtle knife (as in the Philip Pullman trilogy) and top the Abrahamic monster with a single clean stroke (as in "Apocalypse Now")?

Bruce:
Sam is (or would be) mistaken to think this is just Buddha. The transcendental ego was the central star of Kant's "Kritik der reinen Vernunft" (1781) and became an object of discussion in the whole tradition through Hegel and the idealists, Husserl and the phenomenologists, and Heidegger and the existentialists, not to mention Schopenhauer the orientalist (with his cosmic "Wille" that spawned Nietzsche's will to power) or Freud the monotheist (and his disciplinarian superego - such a reduction ad absurdum!). Buddha deserves honorable mention for his ultimate self-help psychology, but Buddhism is godless, and quite rightly so.

One wanted to read some philosophy and here one is blogging off again ...

Sam who doesn't believe in God believes nonetheless in an intangible psychological something called the Buddha Nature-the true inner transcendental self for which there is no empirical evidence. Does the Buddha Nature exist? Sam would say yes and if you want to know it exists you have to experience it directly. The same holds true of God a being vastly more powerful and incorporeal than the transcendental self. God can be known through experience. I know the Buddha Nature and I know God the knowledge of which is the Buddha Nature contemplating its source.

Pascal's Wager calls to mind lessons in informal logic (if A and B, then C)...toss this one out to those who are persuaded by Pascal:
P.1: IF Absolute power corrupts
P.2: AND God has absolute power
THEN God is corrupt.

Mr. Andy Ross--I enjoyed your attempt to create a new and improved concept of god (maybe you should make it read like an ad for your new and improved product!)...however, how likely is it that the religionists will forgo the god-monster(s) found in their "holy books" ? Unfortunately, it's more than a re-definition of the god concept that's needed...they cling to their holy books while the rest of us choke, and unless humanity wakes up and takes those books and relegates them to their proper library space in the fiction section, they will not change their concept of god, because the books don't, won't allow it--especially the koran.
As for my own psychic economy, it runs smoothly on a non-pious notion of quantum interconnectedness...we're all connected by a quark of humanity...energy that cannot be created nor destroyed, and like Heraclitus' river, ever flowing and changing.
If the religionists cannot be cured of their dereism, that river could disappear, so get out there Andy and sell sell sell that shiny new ONE!

J.

Leona, Although ye say ye don't believe in God ye sound very religious for as is well-known, certainty is the exclusive preserve o' religious fundies.
Even so, here's hoping ye're right this time as, fr'instance, what on earth would the Lord Sam make o' the heady exchanges between Andy an me and now you!
Heaven forfend! And ministers o' grace defend us and keep the Good Lord Sam outa here!

Bernie, thanks for your prayers to John Paul, and may my impending cure be offered as a humble submission in his bid for sainthood.

The God of the Abrahamic tradition is about as real as Santa Claus. But people believe, and this anthropological phenomenon cries out for explanation. Just as each human spins an "I" from the thoughts that swirl in the brain, so many humans spin gods from the mysteries and pious hopes that surround their psychic swirls.

Is this some kind of psychic necessity? Do people who rail against gods have other pieties that play the same role in their psychic economy?

I think they do. I think labeling such locii of sacredness in the Gedankenwelt with words like "divine" and "gods" clarifies things. Even the iconoclasts hold their holies holy. Let's call them as we see them.

My innovation is to discern the existence of a hotline to God (One for all) in each cranium and invite us all to respect G's role in the natural order and primacy over the human self. Thus we move toward planetary consciousness and put all our little me's in their place.

My recommendation is to downsize the old gods and invest in the new One.

Thanks again for holding up the mirror for me to shadowbox against - this is one of the functions of the shiny new God in my scheme.

Over and out.

How can one choose to believe in a god? Could an adult choose to believe in santa claus?

Folks, I am certain that there is no God. The only thing I am more certain of is that Sam Harris is not reading any of these posts. You address HIM like a kindly, all knowing deity and truth is he wouldn't take the time to piss on you if you were on fire.

Lighten up!

Och Andy, ye've got it real bad, poor wee sowl that ye are!
For years my auld Grannie went through much the same wae painfu' bunions until we aw prayed tae the late Pope John Paul for a miracle and sure anuff it worked!
Now although she still has the bunions the pain's gone!
Only half a miracle right anuff but as wae half a loaf ye havetae say that's better than nuthin ataw! And even half a miracle isnae tae be sniffed at in your case! So mind and let us know how ye get on for if there's a result it wid go a lang way tae making auld John Paul a saint!
Now wouldn't that be nice!

Douglas Hofstadter is the greatly renowned author of "Gödel Escher Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" - a celebration in richly elaborated puns and psychic gimmicks of all kinds of the astonishing work in mathemagical logic of Kurt Gödel (the young man who in 1931 torpedoed the mighty ramified theory of types developed in the years 1910 to 1913 in the three fat volumes of Principia Mathematica by Alfred North Whitehead and Bertrand Russell, a.k.a. Sir Bertie or Lord Russell) and the divinely recursive and hence amazingly analogous loopings in the music of J.S. Bach and the engravings of M.C. Escher. GEB appeared in 1979 and now Douggie has struck again, this time with an endearingly readable work entitled "I Am a Strange Loop" in which among very many other things the parable of the imaginary but very tangible marble in a box serves to illustrate the elusive metaphysics of "I" - and hence, for me, of course, the no less elusive goose chase for God. My take, in a nutshell, is to project the central idea from a similarly idiosyncratic classic published in 1976, namely "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jaynes, and weave from the intriguing complementarity of their twisted strands an Idea Whose Time Has Come, namely that God and I jointly inhabit my cerebral hemispheres and coexist in divine dialog, eternally singing dialectical hosannas to the polymorphous phenomenology of our multifaceted reality. Amen!

Well now Andy, with Andy Ross as a moniker I’d normally not hesitate to go into your website but…but…is that your real name? For all we know you could be the very same Mr Filthy McNasty that my dear auld mammy was forever warning me about! I mean tae say what’s all this about you being a strange loop in the sense of Douglas Hofstadter (who he?) And even if such a loopy loop is ‘formally explicable as a Gödel loop or even a G-loop (G-spot?) perhaps to tickle the divine itch that causes the pearl tae loop the loop (did the earth move for you as well) so that ye need tae fondle it and test icle wickle its properties.
And only then ye can gie me the treatment so richly deserved!
And ye say all that's jist because o' Sam's flatness!

If ye don't mind Andy I'll wait for Timmy tae go in there first! He's braver than I am. Aye, if we don't hear fae Timmy again we'll know the reason why!

Bernie, the post ends with a link - geddit?

The piece is far from satisfactory and the quality of the argument might politely be described as sucking. But somewhere in it is a glimmer that betrays the inexorable pull (the suck) of the religious tendency, or perhaps one should say the tickle, the itch of the divine, or even the anthropological sand, as it were, that causes the pearl (God, the marble in the Hofstadter sense - read his new book!) to grow in the true believer. I need to feel it to fondle it and test its properties. Only then can I give it the treatment it so richly merits. Trust me, my brain is still hard-hatted. I just want to contradict Sam, to escape the flatness of his position, which reminds me of Victorian utilitarianism (a philosophy that Marx I think rightly described as "shallow syncretism").

Anyway, let me compliment you on your taste in poetry. Such worthy sentiments!

I went back to check on the quote Sarah Prescott gives from Warren in the debate, and she is absolutely correct. And this along with the post from Alan following is indeed a shocking indictment of the consequences of belief. Whom would a God truly rather spend eternity with: One who is compelled to love out of empathy with human beings with whom he/she shares life; or one who would only do what is believed to be commanded by a book that is believed to be the word of a God whom it is believed would condemn anyone to a Hell for no other reason than not believing it?
A God that would allow people to kill each other for centuries over differnces of belief in Him is at least severe neglect for a supreme being and doesn't speak highly of his omniscience that He couldn't make Himself more clear, and at most is a pretty good argument against there being one at all.

In response to Alan who is criticizing Sarah Prescott, as a former evangelist Christian, I have to strongly agree with Sarah. Even if Christianity were true and we ended up in this Heaven they talk of, swell, THEN WHAT??? If having something to look forward to is what makes life worth living, then what's the point of an eternal afterlife in some Stepford Christian Gulag where you have nothing to look forward to?

Gawd luv ye Andy! I've said a wee prayer for ye. Ye sure need all the help that's going! Now izat no' nice o' me?
Where did ye post yer manifesto?
And are ye telling the truth! I mean is it really brief n thoughtfu'?

Get well soon!
Aw the best fae Bernie.

Hi Jesus, Hi Timmy, Hi Bernie,

Glad to see Sam is still posting and that you're all biting.

Yesterday I posted a brief but thoughtful manifesto on me and God, to explore an idea. Here a taste.

God and I

We live in reciprocity, God and I. Two persons, one spirit, a dialectical trinity.

I am a person, a strange loop in the sense of Douglas Hofstadter. Such a loop is formally explicable as a Gödel loop or a G-loop but is not yet easy to understand. Adding gloop to the G-loop to deepen the mystery, indeed to celebrate it and anchor it in mystic and baffling paradox, is the traditional role of religion.

I say banish the gloop, diminish the strangeness, give God a nonparadoxical role in the dialectical triad, and rebuild the psychosocial order on a more rational basis as follows.

God is my other. Each of us is an embodied soul for whom other humans are generally separate and less accessible. I have an inner life that no other human can share fully, and so does each of us. But God shares it, by definition. ...

God and I are buddies in spirit. One spirit animates us. The spirit is the substrate for personality but is not itself personal. The spirit is the universal medium in which we all move and have our being. Words and concepts for spirit are numerous and mostly imperfect. Brahman, the godhead, reality, consciousness, nature, the absolute - the list is long and not very helpful. ...

On this view, God is the immediate, ever present, phenomenal manifestation of our psychosocial interconnectedness in a medium of fathomless potential. ...

Behind all this fundamentalist theology is a hard claim about reality. Subject and object and equal and opposite. If I am a person, there must be an objective reflection of that fact. The constellations of objects that surround me must allow intepretation as faces of the other. ...

In short, God is an idea we seem to need to complement the psychology of personhood and provide a stable foundation for describing and hence understanding and regulating a psychosocial order. That order can be tangled and gloopy or it can be clean and reasonable. The new fundamentalism can help us clean it up.

http://www.andyross.net/gaiberg.htm

I think you should have typed "deluded" before atheist and should have typed "truth" instead of "harmony" (or after it).

On April 19, 2007, Andy wrote:
"I've never met an atheist whose arguments against God's existence I couldn't tear apart."

I'm guessing you've met a few in your life, so it seems statistically likely that you could tear apart the arguments of every atheist. Please start tearing and then we can all be deluded together in peace and harmony.

On April 19, 2007, Andy wrote:
"I've never met an atheist whose arguments against God's existence I couldn't tear apart."

I'm guessing you've met a few in your life, so it seems statistically likely that you could tear apart the arguments of every atheist. Please start tearing and then we can all be deluded together in peace and harmony.

Now I am completely convinced myself on the religious issue.

1. Religion is invented out of fear of death.

2. Any bible is man-made collection of moral guidelines by people from ancient times.

3. Christians (especially) are doing the right things for the wrong reasons. Sometimes their wrong reason have been hurting mankind more than it helped and they refuse to admit the toxicity.

4. Religion gives false hope to people. Non religious people have very limited hope and that should be normal except that no one likes the situation with no hope. In daily life, having hope ( even if it is false) is a much easier position in dealing with daily problems.

5. Very slowly, this stubberness of religious stance ( especially Christian) is changing to the more practical and realistic one: teaching class by female deacons and female priests, accepting homosexual activity as biological difference, not a mental disease or sin, accepting abotion as women's choice, accepting evolution as the essencial part of biology and natural science history. More supporters and acceptance for leaders like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, who never had had any chance even to talk in public in the past.

6. At this rate of change, there will be a better understanding social environment for differences among people without condemning one another. Current religion must find the next level to survive or they will be dimisnished to a social club of different kind.

Hello fellow free-thinkers, I just recieved my copy of Christopher Hitchens' new book "god is not GREAT," subtitled "How Religion Poisons Everything." I'm only a couple of chapters into it, but Mr. Green might want to add this one to his motivational reading list for others to enjoy.

Sam, we are all waiting for your next book!

Right on Doug! There are even strong hints in the NT that Jesus had knowledge of and was influenced by what the Buddha taught.
And all in all, even though I think it would be terrible to have to live many lives, when considering that among other things we now know for sure the earth is not flat but round and even that the Universe began 13-15 billion yrs ago, Buddhism makes more sense than Judaism, Christianity or Islam in that we can hardly be judged for all eternity on what we get up to in one fleeting life that doesn’t even register on such a time scale.

Forgive for waxing lyrical again but sometimes, as here, the poets do say it better!

I hold that when a person dies
His soul returns again to earth;
Arrayed in some new flesh-disguise
Another mother gives him birth.
With sturdier limbs and brighter brain
The old soul takes the road again.

Such is my own belief and trust;
This hand, this hand that holds the pen,
Has many a hundred times been dust
And turned, as dust, to dust again;
These eyes of mine have blinked and shown
In Thebes, in Troy, in Babylon.

All that I rightly think or do,
Or make, or spoil, or bless, or blast,
Is curse or blessing justly due
For sloth or effort in the past.
My life's a statement of the sum
Of vice indulged, or overcome.

I know that in my lives to be
My sorry heart will ache and burn,
And worship, unavailingly,
The woman whom I used to spurn,
And shake to see another have
The love I spurned, the love she gave.

And I shall know, in angry words,
In gibes, and mocks, and many a tear,
A carrion flock of homing-birds,
The gibes and scorns I uttered here.
The brave word that I failed to speak
Will brand me dastard on the cheek.

And as I wander on the roads
I shall be helped and healed and blessed;
Dear words shall cheer and be as goads
To urge to heights before unguessed.
My road shall be the road I made;
All that I gave shall be repaid.

So shall I fight, so shall I tread,
In this long war beneath the stars;
So shall a glory wreathe my head,
So shall I faint and show the scars,
Until this case, this clogging mould,
Be smithied all to kingly gold.

John Masefield

Pascal's wager is silly to the point of absurdity, yet many jingoistic Americans (and some others!) prefer this kind of emotion-based pseudo-logic to any kind of true search for truth, (which may be difficult & frustrating at times.)
As far as the Buddhist doctrines of Karma & Rebirth, while some Buddhists may distort these Teachings true meanings, there is a great deal of wisdom in them. Actions do have consequences. (Karma), present lives do influence future generations. (Rebirth)
Buddha taught that we should not believe something because we read it in some so-called "Holy Book" or because some Sage says it's true, he included himself & his own Teachings in this. (Reference: "Kalamma Sutta")
He said we should only believe it after investigating & determining the truth of any given Teaching for ourselves, for only then will it be of true value to us.
The cold, ugly fact is; most current members of Homo Sapiens are lazy, stupid & ignorant, some even to a suicidal degree. Intelligence is almost an evolutionary redundancy; the majority of humans who continue to breed large families & teach their childeren ridiculous fairy tales about some invisible god running the universe, are the vast majority of the human population. What hope is there against this? My belief, while only my opinion, is that Truth will eventually prevail, if we do not destroy ourselves first. Jesus was right, the Truth will set us free!
Keep on trucking Sam, don't let the fools win!

Let's just say morals would not be objective, so they "may as well" be disobeyed. I mean, in a universe without a point, why bother? I disagree with the above post because subjective morals cannot be an incentive for being good. Godlessness makes morals only practical, not real. And I bet there'd be a lot more lying and cheating and other immoralities that won't get one arrested if there is no creator we owe anything to.

Also in the Warren/Harris debate, Warren stated, "If death is the end, shoot, I'm not going to waste another minute being altruistic." What a shocking indictment of what religious belief makes of people. I wonder how some might feel if they knew that if their minister didn't really believe in God or heaven that he really wouldn't give a damn about them?

It raises the scary question of just how people would behave if their beliefs were proven false. It all relates to the argument they make that you can't be a good person without belief in God and without it anything goes. But I once heard Susan Blackmore give a simple response to this kind of argument. She said, "So if you didn't believe in God you wouldn't love your children anymore?"

Obviously, our moral behavior is not dependent on believing in supernatural beings. It comes from experiencing life in this world. The only commandment needed is "empathy" which summarizes in one word all the golden rules from Buddha to Plato to Jesus. I don't really think people like Warren truly believe that people would all go nuts if they stopped believing. If they did, they'd be admitting how compassionless they are that they would need the promise of eternal reward or the threat of eternal damnation in some afterlife genocide before they would give a damn about human beings. Maybe Susan Blackmore's question needs to be put to them more often.

People who believe don't need evidence, they just believe. I can argue that if you don't believe that when you die you will find out the terrible consequences of your unbelief, or I can tell you that there is a real alternative to your pointless existence and at the time of death disappearing of the face of the universe as if you were never there in the first place.

You can choose, but I can't. Simply put I just believe and all I can do is thank the God who gave me the power to believe for that power and desire that he gives you the same power. I'm no more deserving than you, but unlike you I have hope for the future and you don't.

So get a life, ask Jesus to reveal himself to you and you can be blissfully happy like me. In the meanitme I promise not to try and frighten you into believeing.

Atheists ask "is it rational?"

Theists ask "is it moral?" because rationality means nothing to them. But as soon as you ask "is it rational", an irrational idea that (may) lead to morality falls apart anyway.

Steve Cornell:

"without [this questionable supposition], all moral conclusions are merely subjective human opinions without any binding authority beyond what a culture attributes to them. And, at this point the question, “Who are you to impose your morality on another?” becomes fair game."

It could be said that the questionable supposition that god exists is, itself, merely a subjective human opinion without any binding authority beyond what a culture attributes to it.

Theists are existentially prepubescent: their rationality is too underdeveloped to support decisions more profound than furniture shopping level, and they posit an ineffable sky wizard to cover for their helplessly dependent ethical infantility.

To say it in spiral dynamics (google) terms: they're blue, atheists are orange.

Brian,

I suspect we have a different concept of "Universe". I'm not talking about the big-bang sub-universe having always existed. The Universe (the actual universe, not just the word) must be absolutely everything, and the word must mean absolutely-everything. If the word "Universe" means anything less than that, then the 'infinity set' of absolutely everything is not commonly understood when using "universe".

A very big explosion, and universal origin, are certainly distinct concepts. I'm saying that the first is possible, the second is impossible. Combining the concepts of absolutely-everything-universe and our extrapolation that objects-require-origin, is like saying "a boundary of infinity"; it's impossible by definition. The big-bang pertains to our sub-universe, never the absolutely-everything universe. Even when, or if, a final quantitative description of the big-bang event is solved (details to be ever-doubtable if not built as a completely axiom-structured proof), the absolutely-everything-from-nothing original-cause 'question' will still be standing there, for the next layer of step-closer-to-the-asymptote questions and hypotheses. Truth is about knowing/having that asymptote.

If you honestly think that the universe (the absolutely-everything universe) has not always existed, then scrutinize this (as mildly as you like :-):

It is impossible that absolutely everything (the only 'all' universe) came from absolutely nothing. (I have to include the 'absolutely's, because "It is impossible that everything came from nothing" just doesn't get the idea communicated)

If that is not clear, then perhaps we should explore the anatomy of truth (as in, the completion of a question). If the absolutely-everything universe has not always existed, then any from-nothing notion, regardless of the words that are employed, is the same thought/concept as those who call their in-the-beginning creator the word "God".

Can you hold the concept of infinity ? :-)

Ron

It is almost 6 years since I left churches altogether. Everyday I realize how absurd I have been by looking for something non existent.

I now think clearly why I was so absorbed in religion in the past. It was a wishful thinking. "I wish there were an entity like God" This wish has been amplified and fortified by a support group called churches. Since it is fortified so much by the leaders, it almost accepted as "fact" or "truth".

This is where the true problem (as noted by Sam Harris) starts. Then this group of religious congregation will do "Anything" to justify their factual ground for faith which is merely an assumption. Religious leaders are the main cause of manipulation through "fear tactics" among others like a life insurance salesman. Since human is a feeble creature, it is not that easy to get out of this comforting support group who gives all the false hope they want to hear. It really doesn't matter whether they are fundamental Christian or so called heresies that it is so difficult to get out or think clearly once you start the first step into it.

I am 50 years old now and I am back on my feet and logic and the sense of reality. I even got my right feelings and emotions back. I told my children that I am not forcing or influencing them in one or the other, because I hope someday they will find the answer. I ask them to have an open mind and climb every mountain and think.

However, I will say this. If anyone still wants to live in a fantasy world with false hope till death, any religion or Christianity is perfectly fine, just be careful not to hurt other people with unproven fact. These clubs will provide with all the convenience to enjoy "this " world: friendship, feeling of righteouness, support group, laugh, sometimes satisfying feeling of mockery of othr people, mental strength, wedding places and guests, emotional support when some one is dead.....you name it they provide. It is like in Disney World where all the fairy tale characters seem alive when you are inside. So if you can live inside the Disney World till death, maybe it is not so bad, and maybe it is the best living if I don't care what happen outside the castle.
Don't we all live like a fairy tale prince(ss) with king and queen and gold and feast and victory over evil etc forever if possible? That is one of may reasons that more people join the Disney Club by paying million's of dollars.
But once I saw the outside the castle, I wounldn't want to go back there even if I may enjoy fantasy, my " soul" look for the real self in this real world even if it has all the problems of the world.

and now a brief one to Ron- the big bang is clearly not functionally equivalent to 'god did it', because the big bang is the result of science and logical inquiry, whereas 'god did it' is what every fool has told himself since language came into being, and has more to do with childish fantasy than with being an explanation of anything. Moreover, the only reason physics can't say more about what happened at the precise moment of the big bang is that unified field theory is not yet understood; this is the same reason we don't know what happens at the center of a black hole.

At any rate, the idea that the universe always existed is a totally indefensible claim, and doesn't hold up under even mild scientific (or philosophical) scrutiny.

Craig,

Great questions you ask; those resonated with my past condition of question-obsession.

The final solutions I found (solutions, because the nagging profound questions finally ended) to all those you listed, and more, after grappling with several sciences and the endless scientific and religious viewpoints and assumptions I grew up with, is summed up in the following:

The essence of all of existence is:

Always-Existed,
Always-Now,
Cause-Effect Flow,
Dualistic/Paradoxical,
Force-Field Continuum

I have nearly written a book about why these are the 'asymptotic' truths (besides the oversimplified It-All-Just-Is/Isn't), but I cannot do all that here, except brief concepts.

"Always-Now", about the common assumption/illusion of Time, was the inevitable conclusion of primarily the following:

1) 'Time' requires change/motion, and an observing knowing memory mechanism. No memory = no time. Stop the entire universe = no time. However, "Always Now" does not mean the past did not happen - that would be absurd.
2) When is existence ever other than now ? The entire universe is a flowing cause-effect 'movie' playing on the screen called "Now".
3) The truest state I experience is simply BE, which has no time element.

Regarding Always-Existed, in an earlier post I mentioned how a universal origin is impossible; the universe has no option other than to have always existed. And the "big bang" is not a universal origin, it's an explosion of pre-existing energy. The use of "Big Bang" as origin 'explanation' is identical to "God did it"; the infinite-loop merry-go-round question of imagined origin remains unanswered in both cases.

And "Force-Field Continuum" handles, in a non-mathematical summary, the end of questions like "What is the smallest particle ?', "How do all those countless (radio) waves and 'particles' pass thru one another, and across voids, no less ?", "What is the final smallest sized building-block ?", "How is that superposition works so well ?", "How does flowing energy travel networks, form memories, and become neurological structure ?", "Why are zero/nothingness and infinity always found together ?", and "What is thought ?".

But the progression of truth-of-consolidation is a funny thing; it is a personal journey of solving a very complex layered maze of questions and cognitions (the journey of one's own neurological maze). The result is not immediately comprehendible by others in a different state of mind, nor needs to be.

As Allan Greene said in these posts: learn, learn, learn. There are complete solutions to the oldest of 'mysteries'. Existence is infinitely amazing indeed. The funnest part is actually applying it to living one's life, clearing the mind, creating, and contributing by sharing understanding.

Ron

Thanks Sam for being a Buddha of the day along with Richard Dawkins, and the other think alikes!

Buddha really means an enlightened one.

I hope your group will be able to drive some sense into those stubborn, closed minds of our era. It is the ones with your frame of mind that will ultimately help in saving our lovely planet earth and its inhabitants, I mean man, animal, nature, and the rest one day.

Good luck Sam; and I wish you and your pals the best!

With love,

Malini

Very well said, and another thing about the wager, if you were to guess about God and what not, then which religion should you take the wager on? It seems no matter what religion you have, you are going to end up in hell according to someone else's religion anyways.

Regards,

Daniel

An excellent analogy Gina!

I don't think anyone has pointed out the fallacy that Pascal's wager is less like flipping a coin and more like playing the lottery. It's true that when you purchase a lottery ticket - which is very inexpensive - that you will either win or lose, but the likelyhood that you are throwing away your money is overwhelming.

hi craig-

well, I'm a mathematician and not a physicist, so I can only give you my best understanding, but here goes:

1)the big bang should be thought of as follows: imagine that everything in the universe existed on the surface of a deflated balloon, and then someone started inflating the balloon. So, an epicenter for the big bang in this picture would correspond to a central point on the balloon's surface, which obviously doesn't exist.

2)the density would presumably be, divide all the mass in the current universe by the theoretical size of the pre- big bang universe. I'm not sure if this sort of calculation is possible, though.

3)if you think about how miraculous it is that humans, with our relatively primitive understanding of physics, are able to produce as much energy as we are from the small amount of mass used in an atomic explosion, it shouldn't be too hard to believe that a more complicated process could account for something like the big bang.

4)i think the age of the universe is supposed to be 10-15 billion years or so.

5)all interactions in quantum field theory can be reduced to those of quarks, electrons and force particles. According to string theory, all these particles can be realized as different 'vibrational modes' of strings... this may or may not be true, but it's certain that modern quantum field theory doesn't explain the universe (since it's not possible to include gravity), so some string type theory (i.e., particles should be replaced by objects that are not 0 dimensional) must be true. You can check out www.superstringtheory.com for more detail.

Never mind Pascal on wagering!Damon Runyon was a much more knowledgeable authority on betting with his truism “All horse-players die broke”! Makes a great deal more sense when ye consider even the omniscient Deity itself still lost when betting his pal Satan that a decent lad such as Job could be tortured into changing his nature!

So from being in the position where even the result is known before it happens and yet still to get it wrong, surely you must all agree that betting is a mug’s game and so shouldn’t bet at all!

the net effect of the jews getting a "home" in the desert as the reader above defended, has been war, separatism, racism and continued ignorance. The entire world would be better off if we stop thinking we need our "own" place. The jews like all groups, talk about assimilation as if its immoral.

The "separate but equal doctrine" was the mantra of white supremacists of yester-year. Same story, different color.

All groups try to separate so they can wallow in their dishonesty, discrimination and hatred of outsiders. Although many try to mask it as positive and community oriented, it is what it is---discrimination against outsiders and high pressure tactics against their own to prevent honesty.

thanks to sam harris and people like him, who speak out for the truth. The truth will set you free, not war, not "god" and not lies.

Hi, Bernee Bee - I'm getting that message too - just a nusiance so far.

PS Dawkins did well with O'Rielly, who seemed to not even try to slip him up.