Faith Won't Heal a Divided World

Well said. Let us hope that the veil of illusion these people see through can be lifted and they can one day bask in the light of reason.

This world is a choosing ground and therefore must provide a least two options - its a Pepsi and Sprite world. Don't make it one or the other now. Thats what the here-after if for.

This world is a choosing ground and therefore must provide a least two options - its a Pepsi and Sprite world. Don't make it one or the other now. Thats what the here-after if for.

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The word of most of these religions seems to be that 'we will all end up in oblivion' seems to be correct and between them they are going to make damn sure we get there.

Until we stop indoctrinating our children that there is something up/out there listening and watching us we will go into our own man made oblivion and the earth will carry on, all the better for our demise.

What a waste. So near, and we let the squabbling 'believers' take us down.

Try again old Earth.
You have a bit to go yet.

Cool topic! ;)

Cool topic! ;)

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I am interested on hearing what you, Dennet, Dawkins think about Kant and his critique of pure reason.

Mr. Harris,
Just a comment on "Muslims, however, believe that Jesus was not divine and that anyone who thinks otherwise will suffer the torments of hell (Koran 5:71-75; 19:30-38)."

If you are quoting from Quran, you should do it correctly, the lines you wrote do not really convey the complete message of the actual text.

I am giving you the actual text below for your reference and better understanding.

Chapter 5

71 They thought there will be no Fitnah (trial or punishment), so they became blind and deaf; after that Allah turned to them (with Forgiveness); yet again many of them became blind and deaf. And Allah is the All­Seer of what they do.

72 Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode . And for the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong­doers) there are no helpers.

73 Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.

74 Will they not repent to Allah and ask His Forgiveness? For Allah is Oft­Forgiving, Most Merciful.

75 The Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddiqah [i.e. she believed in the words of Allah and His Books (see Verse 66:12)]. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allah does not eat). Look how We make the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth).

chapter 19:

30 "He ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;"

31 "And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me Salat (prayer), and Zakat, as long as I live."

32 "And dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblest.

33 "And Salam (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!"

34 Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute).

35 It befits not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son .Glorified (and Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). When He decrees a thing, He only says to it, "Be!" and it is.

36 ['Iesa (Jesus) said]: "And verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him (Alone). That is the Straight Path. "

37 Then the sects differed [i.e. the Christians about 'Iesa (Jesus)], so woe unto the disbelievers [those who gave false witness by saying that 'Iesa (Jesus) is the son of Allah] from the meeting of a great Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection, when they will be thrown in the blazing Fire).

38 How clearly will they (polytheists and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) see and hear, the Day when they will appear before Us! But the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers) today are in plain error.

It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

I'm a Muslim and I do not believe that anyone who believes differently from me will "spend eternity in hell for his misconceptions about God". To the contrary, I believe in the "Generosity and Mercy" of Allah (He who is above all).

If one wishes to believe in a literal rather than a metaphoric vision of God then of course one believes in a literal conception of Heaven and Hell.

But the Holy Qur'an repeatedly reminds us that God speaks in Metaphors and Allegories.

Why?

Because God is beyond human comprehension. The description, "Allah Hu Akbar" means not just that God is "Great" but that God is the "greatest" as in "above and beyond, all".

To comprehend "The Ultimate Reality" one needs to be able to rise above, and transcend "human" reality. Beyond Human conceptions of "heaven and hell".

As Sam Harris points out, "scientific discourse has produced an extraordinary convergence of opinion and remarkable results".

While I agree that one might not find this kind of convergence in what I might call, "mundane" religious ritual, when when travels by way of ethical practice, charity, piety towards spiritual development, you see a similar, dare I say, even more powerful convergence of belief.

Imam Ali, Prophet Muhammad's first Muslim (one who surrenders to the will of Allah) said,

"Man arafa nafsa hu, Faqad arafa Rab hu" meaning he who "understands" (knows) himself, knows Allah.

The one who truly surrenders and is able to shake of the shackles of the limited "human" reality and is able to rise to "his" true nature will be able to "see" his "spiritual" self and simultaneously, to "see" God.

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Mr. Harris is brilliant, and very brave. Although I do believe in God, I have always felt that organized religion is an evil. They all think their interpreation of the Bible is the right one and that everyone else is wrong, they are all divisive, and they all make God way more complicated than they should.

Worst of all, there is absolutely no difference between the religious fanatics who have so shamelessly been allowed to take over this country, and the people who flew the planes into the World Trade Center on 9/11. NO difference.

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The primary thing wrong with religion is that anyone thinks that they are not interdependent upon everyone else for surival and salvation.

Most religions don't teach this simple fact, and give elaborate theory of why they are chosen to be the preferred group by God.

Yet, science shows that humanity may easily destroy the earth, easier than it may protect it.

If the earth is destroyed, the point of faith is moot, since the earth God made no longer exists.

The choice for mankind, therefore, and perhaps his test, is whether he can cooperate among the earth's people sufficiently to sustain the earth.

And that is God's test for humanity - truly a trial by fire - of good and evil - of survial or extinction.

Hi Victoria,

If you send an email to ImagneMe@Aol.Com I will be able to invite you to our website.

Thanks

Email

Victoria,
Hmmm. Not sure what is wrong. I'm typing my email address into the slot here below where I post my name. Maybe you can use that. If not, open your own email inbox, click on Compose Email, or the equivalent to send a new message, type niceatheist@ca.rr.com into the "To" space, make sure it is spelled exactly right, and just send me a short note saying what you would like to do. I can return the info to your email address. Don't post it here. Don't give up if it doesn't work. We have other email addresses we can use if there is some glitch. Road Runner is having some problems with email lately. I'll get another email address that Pat has and be back here with it tomorrow. We'd love to have your company.

well im not quite sure how to use it richard- i tried putting it in the search box but got referred back here- and i tried sending it as a email address but it failed- im afraid im not too computer savvy so tell me how to go about it peace

Victoria, if you're interested, we all got together into the site by using an email I created, niceatheist@ca.rr.com
If you use that I can send you all the info and the entrance code. You can change your mind and I will delete all records of your email, no hard feelings. You can also easily create an alternate email just like I did. That way your regular one is not affected or put in any risk.
We all really hope you'll join us, but we understand if you don't want to.

Wow she's fast. We should like hide in here and next time she comes whizzing through we jump out and say, "Hi Victoria!! Surprise! Wanna be in our group? It's called Freethinking Friends. It's no big deal, but we do have a complete First Aid room for wounds from the On Faith threads. You'll get lots of TLC. We're good at patching each other back together, and we have a lot of laughs"
But she comes by so late. I'm sleepy.

it tomorrow- hi again- ok bye

Hey all - thanks for the kind words- no time right now but insha'ala ill be back tomorrow-
my its nice to be welcome -

Victoria, I hope you will decide to join us.

Richard, you are the absolute BEST. Thank you.

Victoria, this is the honest truth, I think you're more of a freethinker than tons of atheists I've seen.

VICTORIA,
Pam, Tammy, Ted, Alain, Robin, Torrey, and I spent so much time down here by ourselves we came to have a very fond affinity for each other. We found that we all valued respect over being right. We started a private site where we could congregate away from the noise and prying eyes of the rest of the world. We share our adventures out in blog land and the real world, kid around, laugh, cry, lick our wounds, and generally enrich each other. We would like to invite you to join us. We're all atheists or agnostics, but we would be honored to have you add your special, gentle wisdom to our group. Let us know here if you are interested. If not, that's okay just say so, so we won't pester you as we continue trying to find you.

What's most interesting about Jesus is that he wasn't Christian or Muslim, but Jewish. Learn more here:
http://www.resourcesforlife.com/groups/jesusforjudaism/

Hi Mike Murphy welcome to you. This is the first page of Sam Harris and I must say most of us have moved on to other pages.

I do check back now and then but since the page has become so long not many others do. Just try and look at the mentally ill postings as a lesson in patience and tolerance. I just tell myself that they "know not what they say". Chuckle to myself and move on.

It's encouraging to have so many valid opinions(I'm, of course, referring to the athiest one's, particularly Sam's)put out here in the open, but it would be so much more pleasant if we didn't have to sift through the moronic ramblings of the mentally ill (I'm referring, of course, to the theists) just to read worthwhile input from an intelligent person. --I'm referring here again, of course, to you admirable realists out there. It's comforting to know there's at least a few of us here. Thank you.

My apologies for posting three times. For soem reason or other my message took ages to appear.

Many of them are faking it because being churchless is the political kiss of death.

If you go to the main page of the On Faith discussion you will find an interesting tabulation of the religious affiliations of the representatives in Congress.

Those with no religious affiliation number 6 in the house and none in the senate. This represents 1.1% of congress as opposed to 14.1% in the population as a whole.

So it would seem that atheists, agnostics and pantheists are very poorly represented in Congress.

If you go to the main page of the On Faith discussion you will find an interesting tabulation of the religious affiliations of the representatives in Congress.

Those with no religious affiliation number 6 in the house and none in the senate. This represents 1.1% of congress as opposed to 14.1% in the population as a whole.

So it would seem that atheists, agnostics and pantheists are very poorly represented in Congress.

If you go to the main page of the On Faith discussion you will find an interesting tabulation of the religious affiliations of the representatives in Congress.

Those with no religious affiliation number 6 in the house and none in the senate. This represents 1.1% of congress as opposed to 14.1% in the population as a whole.

So it would seem that atheists, agnostics and pantheists are very poorly represented in Congress.

Wow-thanks, Jim from PA,& of course Pam.

Jim from PA just sent me this interesting website. Hope it works for you.

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Hello, and good day to everybody.

I'm with you, Pam, it must be an act(it does make her a ton of money), at least that's what we can tell ourselves to keep our own little bubbles from bursting. Can that Pat Robertson be kidding, too?

Hi Tammy,

Coulter makes me crazy. When she is on I want to jump through the TV and rip her face off. I don't know anyone these days that just sets me off like she does. I often think it may just be an act. But god help us if it isn't. She is a dangerous woman.

I love all the dumb blond jokes. My friends send them to me all the time. I so relate to them. LOL LOL

good strategy tammy- i always like to keep everyones expectations extremely low- i can onlu o up from there- as a matter of pop interst i watched slaughterhouse 5 the movie tonite

Okay, after this, I really will go away for a while, but I was just re-reading the brights thing, and I agree that it doesn't work in the same way as gay or queer because nobody uses bright to insult somebody else.
If we're gonna use one of their words for us, I like godless.(This is my disclaimer; I have not read Ann Coulter's book by that name, I've just heard her yack enough on T.V.)

Okay, now I'm the one swearing, but I honestly have a Marvin the Martian t-shirt that says Space Cadet on it.
Pam, they say you have more fun! I thought it would be fun to use dumblondeatheist as an online name for myself, even though I'm not blonde, and I know plenty who aren't dumb. I thought it would be a cool name because people almost always drop their guard when they think they're smarter than you. In the end, of course I couldn't use it because it is an undeserved stereotype that shouldn't be perpetuated.

Pam, have you checked out the Main Page articles? There are posts by Christians who want to redefine God, and so far it seems like more atheists are responding. It's very interesting reading over there, but I have to sleep sometime.

Tammy

I am the "space cadet". I was a blond my entire life and you know what they say about blonds??

Since then "space cadet" has taken on a new meaning, that is, someone with only one retrorocket firing.

Thanks, Ted. I love "Stranger in a Strange Land", and I've always meant to check out more of his books. I wish there was a way I could get my master's degree in Conjecture and Science Fiction, or get hired anyplace with a degree like that.

Tammy:

Space Cadet is a 1948 science fiction novel by Robert Heinlein -- whom many regard as one of the top science fiction writers of all time. Heinlein was very much into life extension. . . Ted . .

Who wrote "Space Cadet"? I don't think I've ever heard of it.

im really pleased that i posted here - yes i dont assume we are at the top- i posted this question the other sam harris post and also said that the ability to kill creatively doesnt seem sufficient to me-
i was asking from an evolutionary point and that seems to be the word right now-

as far as the soul atheists and theists seem to agree that its in the realm of belief- so anyones opinion is as valuable as the next-

TAMMY i swear (actually i dont know if its politically incorrect to swear here- the swear presumably for me being on god) that i used to sign off elsewhere with SO LONG AND THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH and i was really going to do it here!

dont get me started on my asted youth in the nose of a scifi book- my firdt day of high school i walked around with a copy of SPACE CADET and of course- that became on of my nicknames thru-
thanks for the reasonable discourse friends
peace

Victoria,

I don't think of myself as having a soul in the religious sense. A soul that is going to heaven or hell as I don't believe in either.

I do believe right now in an inner sense that tells me if I am doing right or wrong or shows me a need that someone may have that I can help with. That allows me to care for myself and others. I can't say if that is what you are speaking to as a soul.

I have often read about people who say they had near death experiences and that their soul has left their body and floated above them and then returned to their body. I have no explanation for that except that I think the mind can play strange games on people at times.

I think the mind is a wonderful but strange part of the body that we probably know little about at this point in time.

In all honesty, I am not exactly sure at this point but I can say that I think that when I die that will be the end for me. I see no point in looking for an afterlife. But I suppose we will all find out someday won't we?

That is funny, Richard, that we were all answering the same question at the same time, and from our own perspectives but with similar sentiments. Well, have a good day, everyone.

I can't stop thinking about poor Shamu and all those poor captive dolphins. Did you guys know that their lifespans are cut almost in half when we keep them in tanks? It's like they need the tides or something in order to live out the fullness of their lives.The moral of the story is that my poor deprived younguns won't get to see a live dolphin until we get them to the beach.(See we all will preach about something if given anything that looks like an oppurtunity!)

I forgot to thank Jim Hanley for leaving us his poem to read. I wonder if he's set it to music, it could be a cool song.

Looks like Ted, Tammy and I were all typing at the same time.
Hi there. Also looks like there is some consensus. That's cool, or does it mean we're all deluded in the same way? Oh well. Got to get to work. Later

Hi Victoria,
These are my views, not the Truth.
No, we're not at the top of any hierarchy. We're just better at killing off everything else. We are equal to every other living thing in the sense that we are all equally the descendants of good survivors. We are all actually cousins. Let that idea sit in your mind for a moment, and you may see it's a beautiful way to see the world and its, and our unity. Amoebas, cockroaches and dolphins are just as "advanced" even though their species have been as they are for much longer than we have. They have simply found a physical structure and behavior patterns that have continued to work well in their environment.

Stop and question the assumption of superiority and so many people's desire to feel that way, and to scramble around seeking proof of being "better. " Just because some scientists and some non scientists strut that stuff doesn't make it correct, or more importantly, doesn't make it meaningful. It is a destructive vanity, and it's a great liberation when people let go of it.

In evolutionary terms, we are a recent experiment, and so far the results are mixed. Changes in structure either work well or cause extinction. Big brains may not in the long run be such a good idea. At one time there were as many as 6 big brained primate species living at the same time. We're the only ones left. It has cost us having lousy teeth, and worst of all the longest period of helpless childhood in the animal kingdom, where we look up at our parents who provide, judge, reward and punish us. That leaves a lasting impression, so we invent a new parent in the sky to do the same thing after we're grown. What we're doing with these large brains lately is setting up serious threats to our survival.

I can't answer your questions about a soul, because I don't know what you mean. If you mean a consciousness and an identity transcendent of the body that I would call "me," then again, as with god, I see no convincing evidence. Even in life, "self" is an elusive thing, as the Zen Buddhists point out very well.

Your husband's prison puzzle is fun, but we don't lock up people's physical bodies per se. We lock them up because of their behaviors, and behaviors persist beyond the life cycle of any cell. When and if we think their behavior will remain acceptable, we let them out. Actually that 7 year thing is a myth; some cells replace very quickly, and others, I think, like ovums and brain cells last the lifetime of the organism.

I don't understand your last question about presenting faith in esoteric form etc. Who do you mean about holding themselves to standards?

I have much to do in the next 3 days, so I may not be able to respond very promptly. But look for me here; I'm not visiting any of the other threads any more.

Peace.

Ted and I must have been typing at the same time! I didn't answer you about our souls Victoria, but so far I doubt that it's anything outside of my own consciousness. I doubt that I will survive my body's death. At the same time, I can't help but feel elated sometimes, like each of us is (or at least has a chance at becoming) divine, because of the amazing good that we humans can do when we put our efforts into doing what's right.

Every one of us living on this lucky little planet is an unrepeatable miracle of nature. That's cool with me, as that's the simplest answer at this point, but of course my understanding is always evolving.

Hi Victoria-I haven't checked out the other threads yet today, but I'll have to see what kinds of answers you got. I don't think it's a matter of humans being superior over dolphins. It could turn out that they're more intelligent than us, and I don't know evolution inside & out, but I think we are a younger species than they are. You're right; they live in harmony with nature and have done so longer than we have. Time will tell if we can become superior, but that obviously won't happen if our environment is demolished. This dolphin business reminds me of "So Long and Thanks for all the Fish" If you like funny stories and haven't read them yet those Douglas Adams Hitchhiker books are hilarious.
Also, as I understand it, we aren't supposed by scientists to be the top of a hierarchy. We just happen to be the only hominid species to have survived this long. There's a good web documentary called Becoming Human; I've mentioned it before, but it's cool because you can flip around in it and watch it in whatever order. I'm pretty sure there was a map somewhere on there that shows the locations of the sites where they've found these ancient people.
I don't think we renew every cell in our body on the exact same day every 7 years, I'm just trying to imagine how that would work. As for concsiousness itself, I was just trying to read a book about it("Dragons of Eden",by Carl Sagan), but I haven't gotten through the second chapter yet and hope to get back into my book now that the school break is over. I think that with the MRI and whatever else they can do to listen in on our brains functioning, they either have or will locate our consciousness' home in there somewhere. Maybe someone who gets more time to read hard science books gave you a better answer for that, and I will benefit from it as well, so thanks for asking!

Victoria:

It is kind of you to regard this as a safe environment. The small group of us who use this tail end of Sam's original post do like to be constructive and mutually supportive.

"im posting this question here because it is a nice safe polite corner and i thought imight get some valuable responses-"

"that raises an interesting question for me-
in evolution do we assume that homo sapiens are at the top of the heirachy?"

I can only speak for myself and say that I do not regard homo sapiens as being at the top of a heirachy. It is clear that we are the dominant species on this planet but this does not absolve us from the duty to treat all other life forms with respect. And, when it comes to speculation about intelligent life forms on other planets, I don't think we have a clue at this juncture.

I do not like it at all when the God of Genesis says to Adam and Eve: "be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish od =f the sea and over the birds of the air . . . .". I think that the world is already overpopulated with respect to humans and I think the way we despoil the earth with hideous deep sea trawling etc is an utter disgrace for supposedly intelligent creatures.

"if we go from a purely logical standpoint we are ill-suited to our environment- must construct all sorts of resource depleting and earth destoying
contrivances just to survive- like george carlin says-maybe god created us because he wanted plastic-"

What can I say other than bang on. You are 100% correct.

"as stated animals act with compassion and self sacrifice to care for each other- What is the superiority of man as a species over others?"

Our supposed superiority is grossly over-rated. Albert Schweitzer suggested an ethic of "reverence for life" and I think we ought to have reverence for all of creation.

"im just wondering from what i imagine is an atheist viewpoint-
without a soul and a connection to god- what makes humans better than dolphins which live in complete harmony with the planet?"

Up the dolphins is what I say.

"do atheists believe in a soul?
what is the function of a soul without god?
just wondering
peace"

I think Victoria that most atheists/agnostics are averse to thinking in terms of a dualistic soul in a body but that does not mean we have no souls in a figurative sense.

"January 2, 2007 4:55 AM"

You are up early in the morning!

"also my husband pointed out to me that from an atheist perspective- since there is no way to "prove" consciousness in any way (i mean anima- not electrical activity)
that if taken in a purely material perspective- since every cell in our body is renewed every 7 years- in an atheistically run society- one would have to be released from prison after 7 years because they would be a new physical being."

Fascinating musings on the part of your husband. It is a topic which exercises the minds of agnostics/atheists a great deal. Clearly, despite the turnover of the actual atoms in our bodies we do retain memories of our childhood going back many years -- including, in my case, a vivid memory of a childhood mystical experience at the age of 5 or 6. This is not a proof of a separate soul since the memories concerned must still be stored in our brains. I imagine our brains -- to some extent, back themselves up in our sleep and throughout the day as well -- much like back-up memory in a computer.

"now if believers are not allowed to present faith in an esoteric non material form without "proving" its existence- it seems that they would hold themselves to the same standards they demand of others."

Yes indeed. No matter what our beliefs or absence thereof we can never expect more from others than we are prepared to offer ourselves.

"i thought i might get some intelligent answers here- i posted it on the other sam harris question and all i got was because we have big brain we can run the ecosystem and build machines which was insufficient proof of the superiority of man to me."

It is quieter in this largely neglected corner of the discussions and many of us got driven away from other more active discussions because of boorish and crude behaviour.

Stay well, . . Ted . .

im posting this question here because it is a nice safe polite corner and i thought imight get some valuable responses-

that raises an interesting question for me-
in evolution do we assume that homo sapiens are at the top of the heiarchy?

if we go from a purely logical standpoint we are ill-suited to our environment- must construct all sorts of resource depleting and earth destoying
contrivances just to survive- like george carlin says-maybe god created us because he wanted plastic-

as stated animals act with compassion and self sacrifice to care for each other- what is te superiority of man as a species over others?

im just wondering from what i imagine is an atheist viewpoint-
without a soul and a connection to god- what makes humans better than dolphins which live in complete harmony with the planet?

do atheists believe in a soul?
what is the function of a soul without god?
just wondering
peace

January 2, 2007 4:55 AM

also my husband pointed out to me that from an atheist perspective- since there is no way to "prove" consciousness in any way (i mean anima- not electrical activity)
that if taken in a purely material perspective- since every cell in our body is renewed every 7 years- in an atheistically run society- one would have to be released from prison after 7 years because they would be a new physical being.

now if believers are not allowed to present faith in an esoteric non material form without "proving" its existence- it seems that they would hold themselves to the same standards they demand of others.

i thought i might get some intelligent answers here- i posted it on the other sam harris question and all i got was because we have big brain we can run the ecosystem and build machines which was insufficient proof ofthe superirity of man to me.

BRAVO! SAM HARRIS BRAVO!

THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
Beginning cannot be found but keep an ear to the ground
Accept the word of a friend there's no beginning or end
Religion's Theocracy is ending Democracy
Religion's pollution is no solution for Darwin's evolution
The origin of Nature for instance is ceaselessness! Existence
JH 8/29/06
Religion's evil bigotry has relegated all non-religion people and realists
to a lower class 'infidel' status. And, I believe the time has arrived for
all 'Secular' organizations to seriously consider aligning under one
banner to fight the fight of our lives to overcome the deadly influences
of those religious fanatics who intend to overthrow our once Democratic
Government and accede to domination of our society, and complete
control over our way of life.

When I first heard of this "bright" thing, I thought it sounds conceited, which is one of the most common negative stereotypes against atheists. Oh, great, let's make that one correct. Later I learned that this term has been deliberately chosen, unlike "gay" which grew naturally out of the positive slang term homosexuals used for each other's sexual orientation. So "bright" is a very contrived, artificial term. I hope it doesn't catch on. We can't be "merry and gay" in the holiday season anymore because people will snicker. Now when I talk about the luminosity of a star or how smart a kid is will I have to avoid "bright" because people will grumble?

Steve thanks for posting your article here as Tammy and I usually hang out on this tread because it seems more like home to us.

I am intimidated enough with all of the educated and intellectuals that post to have me refer to myself as a "bright". WOW that would be some stretch for me and yes I do think it rings of arrogance. I think we have enough problems in the world today without being the "BRIGHTS".

It seems more useful to see people as people, and not always as what they do or think(you know, until it interferes with our own personal liberties), so I guess I agree I'm not nuts about calling myself bright, either. I checked out their site, though, and one thing they are doing is counting people. I guess it would be good to know how many, but I really don't like brights because its opposite would be dim, and that is more unnecessary meanness.

Pam. I agree with you when you say:

' "brights' just does not do it for me.'

Below is a copy of what I have posted on the Dennett pages.

Steve:

What you say doesn't wash. Those of us who are uncomfortable with the choice of the word "brights" cannot simply switch off our discomfort. No matter what anybody says the term carries with it the connotation that brights are bright and those who are not atheists,agnostics, pantheists et al are simply dumb. I am often appalled at the crude way in which atheists disparage believers and the use of the term brights simply speaks too loudly of this attitude for many of us to avoid being discomfited.

I suggested in another post that "lights" would have been a much better choice since those who are non-believers have an obligation to throw light in dark places. There are many other possible choices which would have been better such as "taboo-breakers". If you have read Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Dan Dennett et al you will surely have noticed that they all draw attention to the manner in which discussing religion openly tends to be taboo.

When you say:
"How about cooperating in the initiative instead of free-thinking of other, potentially more clever choices?" it is not as easy as you make out. There are many of us who feel strongly that the choice of label which as been made is a poor one and may do more harm than good in following through on an idea which appears to be a very good one. I think DZ is correct when he says that "brights' is simply too "arrogant".

Fortunately the atheist/agnostic cause does not stand or fall on the success of the "brights" initiative.

Thanks for the link, Ted, and as ever, Pam, I agree with you. I just don't understand the meanness.

I really have been relying on you guys, my new online friends, to keep me up on things, so thanks for posting over here, where the conversation is running slowly enough for me to keep up with it!

I have just spent some time reading the posts on the Jimmy Carter page of this site. How depressing to read such nasty, angry posts. I am starting to wonder what goes through the minds of some of the people in this world on a daily basis.

Is it religious beliefs that make people this cynical and mean? Why is it that the more people spout their religion the nastier they are to others.

Granted he wasn't the greatest president ever but he has spent years doing wonderful work to make up for that many times over.

The more I read on here the more depressed I become. I wonder if the world can survive with so many ignorant people in it?

Trust me when I say if anyone has a hint of wanting to become a non-believer reading this website will take them there.

For those of you who have not seen it you might like to look at the latest Edge question (What are you optimistic about?) at:

http://edge.org/q2007/q07_index.html

Dawkins, Dennett and Harris are there, of course, but you might like to look at Dr artificial intelligence Marvin Minsky as well. He contends that if it was not for the way formal religion has held us back we may well have been as scientifically advanced in 300 A.D. as we are now.

SORRY THAT WAS ME- HAPPY NEW YEARS PEOPLES

Well- ee Ted- that is where richard dawkins made his mistake,
he should have just ASKED the moths why they do what they do! admittedly though- archy the cockroach is clearly fluent in "mothese" and perhaps richard isnt so i guess he had to resort to reason- that pesky reason!

i got particularly excited about wikipedia because there was a terribe awful brutal story taken from it and there was a tiny blip at the end saying it was under dispute- but the story was so awful people get off and running about it (about the Prophet(pbuh)
so i googled some more and alot of time was led to links to fatihfreedom.org

its like asking george bush to interpert islam for me-

thanks for being so reasonable

TAMMY you are a hoot!

this is true- once in long beach cal i had 2 cockroaches that were as big as my finger like 3 inches long- and i left crumbs for them i think they were around a couple of days- i also had a ratty looking little mouse tat i fed behind the fridge- i went away for a day and came back and they had committed suicide by drowning themselves in a half filled cup of coffee in my sink-because of their despair at my absence and all---
ok well maybe not

now that ive edified everyone with stories of cockroaches happy new year all!

interesting coincidence on the moth thing

yes some of the Qur'an can get long and dry- i have alot of stories i like in it though- like the one of Jesus(ata) fashioning the clay birds and them coming to life- i really like the story in al-khaf about moses following the old sage around and the old guy does all the seemingly bad actions and reveals at the end the reasoning behind them which is a mind stretcher and a reminder to not judge people-

peace all!

Hi Tammy,

I just finished reading the Daniel Dennet's essay after your mentioning it on Sam's Fans. I thought it was very good. I don't like the "bright" name for A/A's (Atheist/Agnostic). It just doesn't fit. I understand his reasoning when it comes to gay's but "bright" just does not do it for me. I have had many gay friends over the years and watched them "come out of the closet" so to speak and it wasn't pretty. I do hope that "brights" would have an easier time of it in this world today.

I have started talking to my "other half" (I refuse to use the word better half) LOL and it is interesting. He isn't a believer but has not really thought much about being a non-believer either. I will see where that goes after more discussion.

If I don't make it on later today I want to wish everyone a great new year. Let's hope it will be a bigger and better new year for all of us. According to Dennet there are many of us out there which gave me much encouragement.

Happy New Year to all.

Richard, Victoria et al:

First off Victoria my apologies if I wrongly accused Harun Yahya of being a holocaust denier. Like any encyclopedia, Wikipedia is not flawless. But since I am a mathematician (at least partly) I know that its articles in mathematics are remarkably sound. In fact, a recent comparison between Wikipedia and Brittanica -- as far as math is concerned -- showed that Wikipedia was at least as good if not better than Brittanica.

So maybe I trusted Wikipedia too much. In their defence their article on Harun Yahya says right up front that some of the contents in the article have been contested. None of this, of course, means that creationists -- whether Islamic or Christian -- have a leg to stand on. The truth is the truth is the truth and there is no doubt whatsoever that evolution did occur and it is both better and more honest to simply accept it.

I really enjoyed the moth/cockroach poem. In fact, I enjoyed it so much that I did not want to spoil it. But it is perhaps worth mentioning that Richard Dawkins --in The God Delusion -- has a fairly lengthy discussion of the problem of moth immolation. He says the best explanation he knows is that, in moth evolution, the light attraction instinct arose before incandescent lamps came on the scene and that moth immolation is just an unfortunate by-product of a perfectly sensible and useful instinct. All of which makes eminently good sense.

Dawkins goes on to suggest that the widespread existence of faith based religion in mankind might also be partially explained as a by-product of perfectly sound instincts.

When it come to the issue of reading the Qur'an I have done so and I must say (you probably wont like this) that I found it just as boring as most of the Old Testament. The story of Abraham being deluded into thinking that God(Allah) wanted him to sacrifice his own son leaves me stone cold -- as do many of the other stories.

Stay well, . . Ted . .

Hi again, all, and happy New Year! I just finished reading Daniel Dennet's essay over on that "Why are all the cool kids atheists now" thread, and it was really good, I wanted to share it with you all in case somehow you've missed it.I had never heard of these brights before; as for so much I'm finding on this site, it was quite an eye-opener.

Ted, I'm reading "The God Delusion" right now, and I can't get through it fast enough. It's so much fun to read. Are his other books like this, and should I read them in the order he wrote them? I know I'm behind the times, but I'm tryin' to catch up.

Victoria, you're more proof of what I have always thought, that good people come together regardless of, not because of, religion. I had a rough day yesterday, but because of you, I had the coolest mental picture of a typing cockroach to carry around in my head.
Also, like Richard, I've known a few moths, now dead, but the trick(it seems) is to find the thing you want as badly as they want to fry themselves, and through discipline, keep from getting burned clear to death.

hey richard, are you still awake?
a soja jon t i think just posted a long post to you on the atheists question

imagine whirled peas

one of my other favorite bumper stickers is
look busy jesus(ata) is coming!

and
jesus(ata) is coming and boy is he p***ed!

ok im really leaving this time

aww shucks... that is a poem by archy the cockroach- he was a vers libre (free verse you knew that) poet who reincrnated in the body of a cockroach- he types by banging his head on the keys hence no punctuation or capitolization (youve probably noticed his influence on me in this respect)

it was written by don marquis who i believe was hounded by the maerican government in his career- he was a communist and an intellectual possibly an atheist i dont remeber

he is hilarious andi highly recommend reading him for he is a great observer of human nature and ust funny funny---

i used to think i wanted to be the moth- but years of watching moths immolate themselves on cheap patent cigar lighters changed my mind-

that is why soemtimes i sign off- yours for rhyme crime and reason- (it was originally rum, but i dont drink) well im sure glad i peeked in here for all this affirmation-

ive kept an eye on common ground where a being named simplewords stepped right in my shoes til deb discouraged his new sense of wonder at this website-

ifound a new nemesis who was hounding me for a minute but shes left me alone- it seems i have the capacity to greatly annoy *deb the disenfranchised muslim- alethia the reborn-- and now kate the great atheist- i wish i could make a living by being annoying- it seems like i hae an endless guiless supply- did i have a point?

its not likely-

as far as evolution- well i just dont know- mening i have no knowledge-

so what kind of patients do you have anyway?
i have a dear friend for many years who is a psychotherapist who says he had 2 choices-priest or therapist- his career decision was based entirely upon being able to sleep in til 11 hee

oo this is way too long as usual-
o btw you got that kill the buddha thing didnt you?
it was a book in the 60s the meaning is if you encounter buddha then you are at the same point of enlightenment and i certainly wasnt advocating violence against buddha-

and thanks for that story it gave me the needed extra backbone to leave poor deb alone

yours for time-the sublime and peas on (earth)

Victoria,
Your answers are always thoughtful and heartfelt. I need no faith in that, I have hundreds of posts as evidence. -hee hee you're always the rascal.
It sounds like you will not lose any of the beauty and strength that your faith gives you whether you find that you’re descended from Adam and Eve, or an amoeba. That is encouraging.

Most of the recent conflict in the world and on this website is about fundamentalism, which is a self-defeating stance. To take ancient scripture literally-times-literally is to miss its great value. It is like thinking that Aesop’s fables are about actual talking animals. Fools! That’s utterly missing the point. What is frightening to me is that fundamentalism seems to be on the rise around the globe, rather than in decline, and humanity is being cheated of the new science it needs, and civilization could grind to a halt. In this century astronauts will travel to Mars. If they use “science” that does not conflict with the Old Testament, their calculations will not fit the real space they’re hurtling through. They will miss their target and freeze to death.

Darwin’s work was used by ruthless capitalists, Nazis and Marxists to lend credibility to their own politics and methods. This just shows how anything can be corrupted to justify anything else. I doubt that the gentle Charles D. would have approved of his insight being used to justify any those three forms of tyranny. Every group has adherents or hangers-on who are an embarrassment because of their extreme views or their self-serving perversion of the group’s core values. I’m often reminded of a line from one of my favorite poems, Kipling’s “If for Boys”: “If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,”

I agree with Ted that the mountain of evidence for evolution having occurred is irrefutable to a reasonable and well informed mind. However, I agree with you that a person’s politics do not negate or promote his point on a scientific issue. What does that is the evidence that he brings or fails to bring to back up his claim. Creationist arguments tend to be 99 percent criticism of evolution, and 1 percent argument in support of themselves. Claiming one's opponent is weak is not proof that one is strong. If someone is going to take on science, let them bring solid evidence for their argument, not truth twisted to make a trap for fools.

I found your poem sad. That’s not to say I didn’t like it, just sad. I have personally known intimately several people like the moth. All of them are dead now. They wanted that extreme experience of perfection, or beauty, or sensation, and they deprived the rest of us their own perfect, beautiful sense. I identify with the cockroach. I don’t know if he is, but I’m selfish. I want them alive and sharing their vision. I want every person on this planet contributing their part to the complete whole. I would try in a hundred ways to tell my reckless, obsessed patients that the world would be incomplete without them, to try to convince them to stick around. I failed.

I so deeply admire your character, Victoria. I can get so discouraged by some of these dialogues on this huge website. You are unique here. I hope there are more like you, a ray of hope.

HARUN YAHYA IS NOT A HOLOCAUST DENIER-
HE IS A DENOUNCER OF ZIONISM

go to islam againstantisemitism.com
google harun yahya

and even if he was a holocaust denier- that would have nothing to do with is ability to present any issue in a clear manner

ive noticed some very islamophobic statements attributed to wikipedia as fact since ive come to this post

since when are the politics of any credible person an issue as to the validity of their findings?

richard if youre interested go look for him

wasnt there just a man released form prison in austria for being a holocaust denier?

surely agnostics and atheists dont believe people should be imprisoned for ideas!

that is a very emotionally laden word- and false- and when one makes potentially inflammatory accusations one should at least double check it-

Pam:

You are too kind. Help has both been given and received by all of those in our little group. We are all in each others debt. It has been good to be part of a small concerned and interesting group of individuals. Maybe we are like shops passing in the night but much of life is like that.

May all of you have a wonderful New Year.

Richard, Victoria:

Have been to Wikipedia to check up on Harun Yahya (or Adnan Oktar as he is also known) and I don't think he is of much help in resolving the evolution/creationism controversy. In his favour is the fact that he is critical of masonic nonsense but there is also a huge negative against him since he is a holocaust denier.
From what I can make out his arguments for creationism overlap those of Christian creationists.

I know of no better exposition of the case for evolution (both from the fossil record and DNA evidence) than what can be found in Richard Dawkins' books-- both in his latest book "The God Delusion" and in his other books which deal more explicitly with evolution.

I think those who reject evolution make a terrible mistake by confusing the occurrence of evolution (the evidence for which is irrefutable)and theories of evolution. They do this by talking about THE theory of evolution despite the fact that there is no such thing.

A good example of this kind of thing can be found in the story of Galileo. He found by direct observation that the earth rotates about the sun -- despite not having a theory explaining how this happens. Newton's theory of gravity came later in time and it was subsequently replaced by Einstein's theory of gravity -- which is now itself being questioned. Throughout all of this the fact of the earth's rotation about the sun is not in question.

Thus it is with evolution. The fact of its occurrence is not in dispute -- by anyone who bothers to look at the evidence. All this despite the fact that there is no completely satisfying theory associated with its occurrence. It should be noted that Adnan Oktar (Harun Yahya) has never studied science of any kind in a formal manner.

I agree totally with you Richard that it is critically important for us to try and ensure that more children understand science and logic and the importance of thinking for themselves. There is really no other way forward for the human race.

hi richard- thanks for the "faith" you have in my giving you a reasonable answer- hee hee (i imposed faith on you- im such a weasel!)

i am really insufficient to that task- i actually read the origin of the species alongf long time ago- and i seem to remember some kind of disclaimer from darwin in the preface- personally- i have never seen the big problem with evolution- to my way of thinking maybe the process of creation is ongoing and long term and not in some homeostatic crystal back ages ago- but i think that is a sneaky rationale from one who doesnt really have the knowledge to give a good answer-

i am unsure about the fossil record provided as proof also- i like things clear- actually i dont care if bonbos or whatever they are are my ancestors-
my only problem wirh evolution is the philosophy that seems to have sprung up around it- the competition and survival of the fittest and where does stephen hawkins fit into that?

it seems to justify bullying for people with that predilection- but again i speak nothing of the subject.

maybe the muslims will come up with a new theory that is more logical and clear! you have to askthe questions to get the answers and i think people stopped asking the questions about evolution for a long time- so its good to shake it up- maybe make the theorists clarify it for themselves and the rest of us- the same standards for proof should apply to them as they demand of the crteationists for example- in america i really think no one should be dictating science to our children- if there is validity to creationism it should be obvious i would think- now however there is a brilliant creationist i guess youd call him although i do think he eschews that term for himself as innacurate or maybe doesnt want to be lumped with the christians-

his name is harun yahya and i dont know how to make links if i did id link it right here right now

actually i need to go and read him myself-

so i do believe that ALLAH created us and we are stardust and have an integral belonging on this plane and an innate right to exist-

as far as muzzling anyone- as kitty my grandma used to say- the truth will out-

i say let them all argue it out what is there for the creationists to be afraid of?

go look at harun yahya definitely

is a really opposite but polar perspective- you know he was kicked out of his home countryof turkey because of his faith based views?

i contend his right to pursue research as he deems fit as well as the scientists here to do likewise.

not an answer i know because i dont know
peace what did you think of my poem?
apropos of nothing- wait no not really- it did something ethereal for tammy!

nothing validates my existence like making those invisible links all the time

o and ive been babbling like crazy on the atheist site except apparently over there im really annoying a lady atheist instead of deb
peace! and EID MUBARAK to me!!
happy new year to you

Hi Victoria,
It's so good to see you again, especially away from that other thread. How did you even find this place? It got buried long ago and only about 7 people kept talking.
Anyway, I've always wanted to ask you a question that didn't seem to fit into the other "common ground" thread.
One of the most serious problems I have with Christians in the U.S. is that so many want to impose the Old Testament Genesis creation myth onto public schools, and to muzzle scientists talking about anything that contradicts it. One even wormed his way into the NASA public affairs office, and was warning scientists not to use references to the Big Bang. Fortunately he's out now. This is totally unacceptable to me and many others because it threatens to corrupt science. We need a constant flow of good science to keep our civilization going. My attitude toward the Middle East is, let them continue to outlaw teaching evolution, etc. and slip back into the Middle Ages. It's sad, so much science, astronomy and math came from the Muslim world. As you wrote elsewhere it jump-started the European Renaissance.
Many Christians seem to be able to accept the views of science when it comes to the origin of Earth and life, and they still follow more or less the teachings of Jesus. But so many others insist on believing a dozen impossible things before breakfast or they can't have any of it.
So my question to you, as a person who has made so long and so self-directed a journey to be where and who you are now, what are your views on Islamic versions of the origins of the Earth and of life?

I am not sure if anyone will return to this thread but let me thank you Ted for all of your help and understanding.

You have a way of explaining very confusing material to a language I can understand.

I appreciate your kindness and help.

Have a great new year.

Hi Jim in P.A.:

My aplogies for not having done more to make you feel welcome. Your two observations that:

(1)Religion is an accident of birth
(2)Religion has done nothing to improve the lot of mankind for 2000 years

strike me as incredibly astute. In just two short sentences you capture the essence of the agnostic/ atheistic cause.

Incidentally, you will have no doubt gathered that the three most visible atheists at this juncture are Sam Harris (neuroscience Ph.D. student), Richard Dawkins (biologist and evolution expert) and Dan Dennett(Philosopher). They are all pals and I have read most of their books.

If you have read none of them I would suggest Sam's "Letter to a Christian Nation" in the first instance since it is short, pithy and a pretty good starting point. That could be followed by Dan Dennett's "Breaking the Spell" (gentle and helpful) and then Richard Dawkins' " The God Delusion" (a very comprehensive and weighty tome) and/or Sam Harris' "The End of Faith" (with a lot of focus on Islamic extremism).

Good to have you on board.

Hi Victoria, I liked the poem. I'll be thinking about it later; I have a funeral to attend, and it's funny how I was thinking of things like this already, then I check in here, and you'e posted this poem for our consideration. Thanks, and as you say, peace.

heres a poem i like then ill leave everyone alone

Background info: The narrator is a poet reincarnated in a cockroach's body.
He types by jumping on the keys of a typewriter, hence the lack of caps.
Knowing that helps :)

the lesson of the moth

i was talking to a moth
the other evening
he was trying to break into
an electric light bulb
and fry himself on the wires

why do you fellows
pull this stunt i asked him
because it is the conventional
thing for moths or why
if that had been an uncovered
candle instead of an electric
light bulb you would
now be a small unsightly cinder
have you no sense

plenty of it he answered
but at times we get tired
of using it
we get bored with the routine
and crave beauty
and excitement
fire is beautiful
and we know that if we get
too close it will kill us
but what does that matter
it is better to be happy
for a moment
and be burned up with beauty
than to live a long time
and be bored all the while
so we wad all our life up
into one little roll
and then we shoot the roll
that is what life is for
it is better to be a part of beauty
for one instant and then cease to
exist than to exist forever
and never be a part of beauty
our attitude toward life
is come easy go easy
we are like human beings
used to be before they became
too civilized to enjoy themselves

and before i could argue him
out of his philosophy
he went and immolated himself
on a patent cigar lighter
i do not agree with him
myself i would rather have
half the happiness and twice
the longevity

but at the same time i wish
there was something i wanted
as badly as he wanted to fry himself

archy

-- Don Marquis

hey there- im going to creep in and out here-

i think people of faith dont want to have these discussions or answer these questions because they haent walked through the fire for their faith- they havent tested themselves in the deepest pits of their being and are afraid is the word that they will not bear up under scrutiny- surely not a new concept here its been proposed-
i only venture to state it because im actually a person of faith and i really welcome inquiries-
if someone asks and theyre truly interested im happy to share the best of me- but there are alot of insubstantial subtleties and personal experiences- its like a performance art-

when i was a visual artist i had the strong philosophy that the artist has a personal responsibility toward their audience to enhance their existence somehow- i used to call alot of art therapy art- meaning- keep your pain to yourself- id ont WANT to feel your pain-i have my own thanks and go work it out and when you have something deep and good to express come back and ill be receptive to it- so very much of it seems like a LOOK AT ME i suffer so deeply and feel so keenly and am so talented- well - as an artist i really wanted the person to feel the way i felt it when i was in that creative state which was exciting and beautiful and ethereal-if i could convey that my art was valid and had a right to take up space on the planet- if it didnt i destroyed it without compunction- theres plenty more where that came from-

my faith to me is like that- i dont want to convince someone of something theyre not ready for or even receptive to- every single human deserves my respect and sensitivity and consideration-
every single one- my religion demands this attitude (islam) whether or not others have delved deeply into it and not listened to the fox news version is not my concern- i know my religion i live it every day- ill define it myself thank you just like you all will define your own selves unmolested ( i hope) my mom says i was born old and sure of my place in the universe- ive lost that and regained that so many times but it is cumulative where ive gained it and maintained it and it strenghtens- i always say the human heart must break continually to retain its elasticity so that it can grow- i also believe the mind must be stretched continually so that it can expand too-
not a rigid crystallization which unfortunately seems to be the general consensus of what passes for faith- but a flexible growth and spiritual evolution-

well these were just some extemporaneous remarks without any direction just a little stream of consciousness so please dont try to analyze it critically because it wasnt written in a left brained format.
and as always peace ill check back to see if there was anything resonating here or maybe i bored the people but since there was the lament about lack of response from people of faith i thought id give it a try- please be kind
peace again

o btw- today is the last day of hajj-it is the largest gathering of human beings on the planet earth period- dont you think that is mildly interesting?
eid mubarak peoples

Ted,
When I first heard Dawkins in a recording on his website point out the issue of indoctrinating children into their parent's religion, I was astonished by the fact that it had not really occured to me as an injustice. We raised our daughter to think for herself, simply because it was natural for us to do so, and I am pleased that so far she has rejected any religious notions, but globaly I had simply taken it for granted that kids get their parent's religion.
Although I own a copy, I doubt that I'll ever finish his book, given my pattern. Maybe I'll get the CD audio from the library. The reader whizzes past how long it would take me to read it.

To Wayne Daniel;

What can I say. Welcome on board. You are among friends in a realm of true freedom. I well remember the day when I first realized that there could be no such place as hell or heaven for that matter.

YES Sir Richard Wade.

By gunning I do mean pulling in your lingo. I have to confess I share your well founded concern for the future. I really worry about my grandchildren and what they have to face. They are such wonderful open hearted delights.

I am not sure if you have yet read the Dawkins book but he goes on at some length about the impropriety of imposing ready made religion on children as opposed to assisting them to make their own way in life.

In reference to "blackdog" comment: Yes, their are indeed "former" religionest who are now "reformed" and have "seen the light". I know. I am one.

One thing I can tell you here in a very few words. Life is much brighter, happier and meaningful when I had that burder of guilt,and impending fear when death occurs. Am I "in" or "out"? What I know for SURE is that I am "here" now and I intend to make the most of it for myself and others.

Ted,
Thanks for your impressions of Dawkins' book. I always look forward to your analytical clarity, and your enormous knowledge.
I sometimes despair for my country. It is definitely going backwards, and not looking where it's going. The people in the Dark Ages didn't know they were in the Dark Ages. I suspect that only a few people in the Renaissance were only vaguely aware of the spirit of their time. (My education about that time covered only art and architecture.) What will this era be called? Even with views from space we can't seem to get the big picture of where this is all going. All I know is that I don't like the sound of things, the look of things or the feel of things.

Oh, and I think you probably meant that we're all pulling for each other. Here in the Wild West, "gunning for each other" means we have murderous intent.
All the best in the new year.

Having finished reading the Dawkins book I have a much better understanding about why it is that so many of you (Americans) are cautious about coming out with respect to agnosticism or atheism. Here in Canada ths situation is very different. The percentage of us who are openly non-believers in any of the formal religions seems to be much higher -- as confirmed by actual statistics.

What I find incredibly puzzling and sad is that the USA seems to have gone backwards. Dawkins goes to great pains to amass evidence that the leaders among the founding fathers were almost all deists or even agnostics -- and a million miles away from being fundamentalist Christians. This goes for George Washington, Madison, John Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Thomas Paine etc. Why it is now impossible to imagine anyone who is an agnostic or an atheist being elected president is a mystery -- which Dawkins tries to explore without coming to any really convincing conclusions.

My overall take on the Dawkins book is that it qualifies as a major work which will be very hard to ignore. There are numerous episodes in my own life which have counterparts in his life; we were both born in Africa for one and both brought up as Anglicans. And we are, of course, both scientists. So I feel very much at home with almost everything he says.

I am so sorry Pam that you and others in your position have had your thoughts twisted about by those who have not had the courage to move beyond the narrow confines of the religious beliefs they were brought up with. Accepting the truth has indeed set you free and the rest of us in our little group are gunning for each other -- including you.

Well I have a little saying to pass on. It is "fear is lack of faith". I believe that some of these people that preach the loudest are in fear of everything and especially death. I don't think people lash out if there are comfortable with their beliefs. I think the hate just describes how they feel about themselves and they are passing it on to us. Yes, us the secure in how we feel about ourselves people.

Considering the fact that most people do not understand themselves well they have no idea that their hatred is based on their own fears. That is why I try hard to not be afraid of them. They are usually the one suffering so much more than I am and hell they don't even understand why so that they can do something about it. They scary part about it all is that they group together. Then it just keeps all of the hate going. That is why it is so important that we group together to protect ourselves from all of that hate. I am not usually ever afraid of much and have a big mouth as most of you have already found out on here. I love to stand up for what I believe no matter the cost. So far the only price I have paid for that is a loss of a few friends respect. Heck, if that is all it takes then like my mother used to tell me all the time. They probably were not friends anyway.

I creep myself out too sometimes. I have to remember that I attract what I think about. Once, when I walked down a dark street I thought, "I hope nobody hurts me tonight." Trouble came my way like iron to a magnet. Sometime later I walked down the same dark street thinking, "I hope I don't have to hurt anybody tonight." Trouble scattered away like leaves in a breeze. Much later I walked down that same street thinking, "I hope I can be helpful tonight." The street was not so dark any more.

You may be very right about people not wanting to lose precious things that they cling to. So simple means so powerful. Somewhere in these 847 responses I read a beautiful answer to someone not wanting to lose their belief that they had not really lost their loved ones. Whoever wrote it was so eloquent, so ease-giving. They talked about how your dead gramma lives on in your loving memories of her, and in how you imitate her best qualities. I hope I can find that post again, it was so well said.

I pointed my finger at the Christians' fear and loathing, but as Pam would know I just saw that three of my fingers were pointing back at me. Can I presume to be trying to understand them? What about my fear and loathing of them? How am I behaving toward them? Should I think about their hate, or my love? How am I walking down the street? Fearfully, menacingly, or helpfully?

I have so long a way to go to understand anything.

Richard, I forgot to thank you for mentioning that friendlyatheist.com. It is a very cool site, what I got to check out so far.

Ahh, Richard, I just creeped myself out, and I want to be wrong about this, but is it just as simple as this: they don't ever want to really talk about it because our mortality is the most intolerable topic for consideration?
If I were a believer, and you posed that question to me, maybe I would take it like you want to take my dead gramma away from me forever? I say that so callously, as if I don't really have a dead gramma, or as if I'm over it already, but she's gone forever and it'll kill me forever. What's worse, she's not the only person I've lost, and somehow I can hold myself together daily. We've all found, in one way or another, that we never get over certain things; we just live with it however we can.
It's fine if people need a religious faith to help them hold out hope that our little fruit-fly existances aren't worthless; it's not fine if they think that that somehow gives them the right to make us say we trust in god.
Oh, yeah, and one more creepy thing- it's bothersome to me how I'm seeing that it's almost always the Christians in these discussions who come off with the ugly phrases, like "killing babies", "You'll all believe in God when it's too late"(ya know, 'cause we'll be burning in Hell), and "Why are atheists so hateful?"(in response to scientific evidence). Are people really living in such fear of death? Could at least a good portion of it boil down to that?
I'm not asking anyone in particular; I'm just interested to know if anyone else sees it as starkly as I'm beginning to.(maybe I really want someone to talk me out of it)

Tammy, what is this fascination people have with calling themselves wimps? In her last post, Pam wondered if she's a wimp to assume the best of a person at first. In her last post, Torrey suggests she's wimpy for having fearful thoughts about persecution from believers. Now you wonder if you're wimpy to be kind to the fragile believers close to you. Let's see: so a wimp is positive, realistic and kind. Can I be a wimp too?

You and Torrey are bringing up the particular question that has become central in my mind since I found this place. What is the source of the fear and loathing, the prejudice, the bigotry, the naked hate that so many believers have for non-believers?
I have my loose theories, but I want to find out from believers themselves. Unfortunately, asking them is like trying to take the rectal temperature of a hibernating kodiak bear. Oops, THEY DON'T HIBERNATE, THEY JUST SLEEP!!
However, I found two remarkably open-minded Christians in a discussion with atheists at friendlyatheist.com and I posted this question most respectfully to them, but so far no answer. As I told them, I don't want to change anyone's religious beliefs, I just want to stop the outrageous mistreatment of people like us. To do that effectively I need to understand the root causes.

Hi guys-Torrey, it bothers me because of how personally some people take it if we don't believe in their god. Like we want to take their birthday away, like we want to rob them of eternal life, and Jesus' love, which is sadly, the only love some of them have. It's so complicated, trying to get along. That's why I've only talked about my non-belief with those I knew could handle hearing it from me. The more fragile types in my immediate circle are going to have to force it out of me.
Maybe I'm wimpy.
Thanks for re-sending the email to me, by the way. I hope I get around to checking my mail tonight.

Ted, you're right about the book-swearing business, but I'm afraid it's one of those ceremonial things we have to humor people about if we intend to get along. We just have to hope that the elected official in queston doesn't adhere strictly to the sections of his holy book that require non-believers to be subjugated, converted or killed.

Uh, excuse me Torrey, who are you asking?

Alain! I'm so glad you're still here. I was surprised to see Richard's French -- count me in as another wanna-be-French-speaker. I love the French language -- it's my favorite -- I've loved it since my first class at the age of 12 and have visited France twice. I also married a man whose first language was French. Anyway, there are so few of us atheists (according to Richard) that we need to keep track of each other. I've been having a few scary thoughts lately (calm down Richard) -- just flashes but they bother me nonetheless. Thinking about how angry and hateful believers can sometimes be in regard to others' non-belief, and how they might hurt me. I'm usually not fearful or wimpy, in fact I'm afraid of very little, so why does this bother me?

Alain, so good to hear from you. I agree about most of the threads I've visited. I'll email you some info you may like.

Richard

I am still alive and well. Just emailed at the address. I am still reading other threads but I am just disappointed by the lack of real dialogue on most of them. Some people , on all sides, are "invading" the threads with their "preaching" on why we should believe or ....not believe. Debating the existence of God is futile in my opinion. It is a personal endeavor. I do not believe myself but I have no right to try to convince others of the non-existence of God or Jesus,and so on. First because I am not sure and second because , and here I agree with Altran, many people NEED to believe. The only thing which matters to me is how to live together, believers and non-believers, in the same society.
Au revoir

Pam, So if it's a private ceremony, who has the right to say he can't swear to kiss the elbow of Zorn holiest of planet Zup while standing on one foot whistling Dixie with a marital aid stuffed where the sun don't shine? And what person with an IQ over 30 should give a damn?
You're not a wimp to assume the best in a person first. In general that's the best default setting, with vigilance along side. People are what they do. As for Ellison, we'll see. I imagine with this paranoid spotlight on him, he'll be as good as gold.

I've just about had it with Victoria and Deb, and if it doesn't improve I'll say so and move on.

What do you mean OMG? It's like you just saw something frightening and suddenly got cut off. Now I'm worried.

Richard, I believe what Ted is referring to is a private ceremony that the reps or senators sometimes have if they wish. This would be with family members and friends. If they choose to do this they can use a bible or in this instance the Koran. You are correct in that the public ceremony no books are required.

Considering the fact that some Muslims do not believe in the book line by line then and some do who knows what is actually in his head and heart. I guess I am just a whimp and choose to believe the best in this man.

The bickering that is going on between Victoria and Deb on the other page over the Koran vs what I am not sure is just an example of how so much gets distorted by some people.

OMG

Ted, do you mean congressman Keith Ellison of Minnesota? I never heard of Orbell.

What I'm confused about is why this controversy has surfaced again, since learning that nobody holds books for the swearing in of the congressmen. What I read last said it's a group swearing on the House floor, with hands raised, no magic books. Whatever. Maybe they could all sneak a small copy of their favorite talisman into their suit coat pockets, Korans, Bibles, Mad Magazine, rabbit's foot, and slip their left hands into their pockets... This is so loony.

But regardless of all that the issue of the Koran at whatever ceremony isn't the dangerous part anyway. If there is any dangerous deed, it has already been done by the voters in Ellison's district. He's Muslim, and they knew it. He won't be any less Muslim if he doesn't touch the magic book that day. The question will be how Americanized is his version of Islam.

I've learned through discussions with Muslims on this site that just like Christians, not every Muslim follows every letter to the letter in their scripture, and the passages that most inflame Westerners are open to widely differing interpretations by differing Muslims.

I agree that it's unfortunate about books entirely. A rabbit's foot would be much better. More people believe in those. And yes, it is a step backward. the horrors of state-sanctioned religion in Britain, and the bloodbath of Europe's religious strife were fresh in the minds of the founding fathers. 217 years later we have forgotten, so we may be drifting back.

I'm confused. Remember our discussion on swearing on a holy book.
Muslim convert and congressman Orbell -- speaking to a crowd of 7000 Muslims -- swears he WILL swear on the Qur'an when he takes his oath of office. Dangerous stuff. The Qur'an explicitly says that Islam is the top dog and only true religion and that it is the duty of every Muslim to convert the whole world to Islam -- by force if necessary.
As you all know I am against swearing on any book -- supposedly holy or otherwise.
If you read Dawkins book on The God Delusion he makes it abundantly clear that many of the founding fathers -- including most of the leading ones ones -- were deists or agnostics and very anti religion being brought into politics. This goes for Franklin, Jefferson, Madison, John Adams, Thomas Paine and even George Washington. Seems to me that allowing swearing on any holy book is a retrograde step.

Well, maybe a million years old, but that's still newborn, and they're still cute.

Tammy,
Oh, what a wonderful statement! "What we're really worshiping is each other." I'm definitely going to repeat that. Thank you!
As Ted pointed out, 'tis the season of the Solstice, and I celebrate it not as a warlock, but as an astronomer. On December 22 the Earth's axis on the northern hemisphere was tilting directly away from the sun by about 23 degrees. It was the shortest day of the year for us, (and the longest day of the year for people in the southern hemisphere.) Now for us the days will slowly get longer and longer, and the sun's arch over our sky will pass slightly higher and higher each day until June.

Sorry, I actually get excited about this stuff. I celebrated on the night of the Winter Solstice by doing some observing of the Great Nebula in Orion, an amazing glowing cloud of hydrogen gas giving birth to stars. Those little baby stars are so cute! Aww, they're only 22,000 years old.

Happy Christmas Eve, everybody. Yes, I'm an atheist, and I celebrate Christmas. I love Christmas! I grew up calling it Christmas, and I'm not switching to Winter Solstice or Yuletide because then everyone will think I'm a witch.I love the lights, having trees in my tiny house, and baking my family's favorite things every day for a couple weeks. We take the kids to every party we get invited to, and in general just spoil them rotten with fun and new stuff. Everyone where I'm from says Merry Christmas, and I'm cool with that, because almost no one ever even tries to bring Jesus into it. Everyone just goes on and on about all the stuff they're doing, and how they'll never get it all done by Christmas. This just makes me think that while you may see the occasional "Jesus is the reason for the season" banner, what we're really worshipping is each other.
I agree with Ted that the holiday season is as much ours as the Christians; most people who claim otherwise haven't spent much time reading anything outside of their own inherited religious tradition.
Hi David; I really liked reading your post. I love C.S.Lewis; he's one of my favorite writers of stories, but I don't come to the same conclusions he did about Jesus. I wonder now if there even was a historical figure by that name, but that doesn't change the way I treat people or the things that I think are important. I think you are 100% correct, when you say "the problem lies within ourselves", and not religion. I've said this before, and so have others, but good people will always come together, in communities and families, even with different religious backgrounds.
If someone excludes me from their reindeer games, it's much more likely that they just don't like me than that I've somehow offended their gods.
Well, enough from me, for now. Hi Jim in PA, Pam, Robin, Richard, Ted, Torrey, and anyone else reading this-Merry Christmas!

ALAIN!
Tu nous manques! Nous avon besoin de vous. Repondez s'il te plait. niceatheist@ca.rr.com
Merci.

Welcome, Jim.
This page is sooo long now that some people have a very slow trip to the bottom. Anything using up your computer's processor will make it slow to get down here. Try the "end" key on your keyboard, if you have one.

Harry Potter may not be legend, myth or creed two millennia from now, but people have an amazing tendency to think that fiction is fact, or to worship things that weren't intended for worship. 2,600 years ago Plato wrote a story about a mythical place called Atlantis, and people are still looking for a lost continent. Natives in some remote jungle in the Pacific met a European who had landed there in an airplane. He flew away, and they were not re-discovered for decades. When they were, they were building and worshiping effigies of an airplane.

I think you're right about human nature not having changed. Some Christians will say that the transformative power of Jesus is only for the individual. Clearly many individuals have had changed lives. Some for better some for worse, if you measure by their actual behavior, rather than by what they say.

I'm glad you're here. We need all the common sense we can get.
Happy Humbug!

Hey Jim in PA I thought you were James (above). Sorry, I am sure you will make me pay dear dues for that mistake.

About the website. Did I promise you a rose garden? Hang in there and you will get used to it.

Hope to see you later.

Pam thanks for inviting me. But either I have a computer virus or this site is woefully inadequate as a discussion thread. Slow, slow, slow. Hard to find and navigate... But now that I'm here....

I do not belive Jesus is God. But man, he had some good pr guy in his corner. I doubt that a billion people will be celebrting Harry Potters life 2,000 years from now.

As for his legacy? For me, I love the christmas lights! Have them on right now. But I don't think he changed human nature a whit. Murder, stealing, was, disease. What ailed the world at teh time of Christ, continues to ail us now. If he was so powerful and transformative a being, well, why hasn't the work changed?

People still go to work and do thier best to get by. I'm no scinece whiz either, but I do have commn sense. I have two general observations about religion:

1) its an accident of birth and
2) It hasn't improved the world in the last 2,000 years.

But hey, MERRY CHRISTMAS! Still my favorite holiday and my boss gives me a paid day off. Gotta love that!

David,
You said we should "examine the facts" as a scientist would, when assessing religion, and I agree that the facts don't speak well for religion in general.

But then you assume many things about Jesus without any facts at all. You say, "There is more evidence about his existence, that he lived, where he lived, and what he did than any historical character you want to mention."

What evidence? I have heard of no more historically acceptable evidence for Jesus' existence or his claims than there is for Hercules. Historical claims must meet rigorous criteria of evidence to be acceptable. Are there contemporary Roman records of the arrest and execution of this person? Are there Hebrew records outside of the bible? Is there any physical evidence for a specific person, a specific place, a specific event that would satisfy a qualified archeologist who isn't just trying to bolster his own faith? Old ruins, holes in the ground, are not evidence of these claims. "Maybe it was here, or maybe this was it," are just wishful thinking, not evidence.

"Examine the facts?"
The fact that it is written in a book is not evidence. Is Oz a real place? It's written in a book. The fact that a lot of people talk about Jesus and write commentary on the original story about him is not evidence. A lot of people talked about Hercules, and now they talk about Harry Potter.

The only fact you have described that is "evident" is that evidently believing in Jesus has been helpful for you. It has brought you peace. Perhaps you should just enjoy that without trying to be "scientific" about it.

James;

Welcome on board.
You ask about how atheists/agnostics celebrate Christmas and I think that, in many cases, they do it in much the same way as everyone else -- lights, Xmas trees, mutual giving of presents and so on. After all Xmas trees have a very loose connection with Christianity and what really is being celebrated is the winter solstice -- a celebration which sure pre-dates Jesus. There is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus was even born at or near the time of the winter solstice -- and some Christian communities refuse to have anything to do with Xmas celebrations. I understand, moreover, that in Japan they also celebrate Christmas without any connection to Jesus.

David:

From the Biblical criticism I have read the claims made by Jesus about himself are not at all clear.

What do you make of; "Why call you me good there is none good but God".

This does not sound like the words of a man claiming to be God. Albert Schweitzer's massive tome entitled "The Quest of the Historical Jesus" ended up with the very clear-cut conclusion that Jesus was deluded in believing he would return within the life time of his followers -- an event which has,to this day, never happened.

And, perhaps worst of all, Jesus appears to have believed in the existence of Hell and eternal torment -- which does not sound like a particularly loving Father/God.

Let me close by pointing out that almost all religious believers adhere to the faith they happened to be born into. So, how can you be sure that the Muslim religion or the Bahai religion is not superior and closer to the truth than Christianity?

Relgion, as such, as done very little to bring peace to the world. Muslims fighting among themselves, Catholics and Protestants fighting through the ages, and all of us, in one way or another, fighting among ourselves. If we are honest,we will admit that the problem lies within ourselves, not with religion. If this is the root problem, then we can't expect "religion" to solve our problems; bring peace to a troubled world.

If religion is not the answer what is? This is what I believe. Back to faith again. The same faith a scientist puts into what he belives to be the truth that is later amended by additional information.

It is very easy to make claims about one's "religion" but as a scientist would do, examine the facts. Look at the world's religions and see what they have done for mankind. "Examine the facts."

Christianity is not about a religion, although some people make it that, but about a person. And what did this person say about himself. There is more evidence about his existance, that he lived, where he lived, and what he did that any historical character you want to mention. Many sceptics have started out to prove that he wasn't who he claimed to be and have ended up calling Him Savior.

And what did he claim to be? In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me."

As C.S. Lewis said, "Jesus Christ was either a liar, a poached egg, or who he said he was. If he were a liar or had lost his mind, he can't be called a "good teacher" or some kind of example to follow. If he is who he says he is, and he claims to be alive today, He has a standing of someone far above those dead prophets of other religions and some one who is capable to bring peace to this world, peace that comes to individuals, one at a time.

Hi james,
Hard to ask too many questions.
I guess "celebrate" can have so many meanings. I put up all the Christmas lights and ge-gaws all over the house because it makes my wonderful wife happy, and that's all I care about. By myself, I'd save electricity and have a lot more shelf space in the garage. But I'm really glad I'm not by myself, so it's a small thing. We have our small family over for a nice meal and presents, etc. but only my older brother is strongly religious. He says grace at the table, and that's that. Easter is not much of anything, now that our daughter is beyond the egg hunting age. It never was religiously significant, even for my wife. My 21 year old daughter seems to be pretty much an unbeliever. (I didn't do it, I swear!) We raised her to think for herself and to respect herself. She's just naturally independent anyway.

Being not sure, a fence sitter is a legitimate position, because you are honoring yourself as a person in process. It can be difficult, but it can be interesting too. Being in process means you're growing, changing, discovering. Respectful open-mindedness is the most pronounced trait I have seen in my agnostic friends, if I may characterize you by that term.

Thank you for your holiday wishes.
I hope the next few days are filled with love and warmth for you and your family, letting each celebrate for religion, or tradition, or just playing along, because that's a deep practice of love too.
Stay warm.

i was wondering what other atheists do at christmas time? do you or not celebrate? i would think that most have families that celebrate christmas. so do you play along? What about children, grandchildren? how do you explain to them the meaning of christmas or societies meaning, if you do not believe in its message? does this present any problems in the family structure?

what about another big religious holiday, easter?

i hope these are not too many questions.

i am a religion questioner. i am not sure about the belief of a god or gods. i guess i am a fence sitter at this time in my life.

i really don't feel like celebrating something i am not sure exists, but i will have to at least this year. just would like to know how others deal with this dilemma.

Happy Holiday to All!

Robin and I had dinner this evening with a long time friend of mine. We invited him to join us. He is "so" funny and very bright (yes Jimmy) I said bright.

I think he will be great here.

Torrey sleeps during the day, so It may be a while. I think if you receive the password, etc at your own email, and visit the site from your own email, it doesn't matter what computer you're using. Check your email now. I've got to get some things done today. So I'll be back later this evening. Love you all.

I sent an email to Torrey for a username and password but did't get it yet. I can wait it out a little and see what happens.

Tammy, you there?

Pam!
We're here at the same time. You could use Robin's membership in the Sam's Fans site to chat with me and anyone else who shows up. Or we could do it right here.

Well, if we wish for interaction with others, there's interesting stuff at the common ground thread, as well as others. I've noticed a pattern where the younger questions have all the polarizing opinions, then as they mature they get more thoughtful, more interactive and more intimate. This one has just gotten really really mature, even mellow, even sleepy. It just gets harder to find the older ones on this website. I don't understand the policy of how On Faith posts these now dozens and dozens of questions.

I had lunch today and had the perfect opportunity to address the atheist issue to a very close person when he asked if I was going to church services on Christmas Eve.

I said that I was not going to go to church but just couldn't bring myself to making any detailed explanation.

So I ran home and jumped on here for some HELP. I suppose I am not yet as brave as I thought I was.

Later and love you all!!!

Hi Pam-I don't imagine we ran her off. If she's like any of my good Christian neighbors(or myself, for that matter), she's running herself ragged right now preparing for the holiday Monday.
So much to bake, so little time!

Ha Ha we seem to have run off another one. My goodness. These people just don't have any stamina!!!!!

pssst.
pssssssst!
hey guys. we've been standing here smiling for almost 16 hours.
my face is frozen. I don't think she's coming back.

Hi Sara,

Welcome!

Actually your NOT one of those Christians that politicaly correct people love to hate. Even though I don't think hate is intended it comes out of frustration.

You posted a most gentle and thoughtful post. You did not come in full blast, post in a forceful, lecturing, saving etc manner.

You posted in a manner that allows thoughtful dialogue. And hopefully by giving us all a chance you will see that we welcome everyone for respectful conversation.

Stick around maybe we all can learn a few new things.

Hi Sara,

Most of the Christians I know (except for a few recovering Catholics) fall into the I believe and do not and never have and never will question catagory. Lord knows why they put up with me because as soon as the topic comes up about church, confession etc. I get silent. I must say that I do not rock the boat with these particular people. I do have some friends that believe but do not practice their beliefs enough that it ever comes up in conversation. I am going to be brave and try a discussion on this topic the next time I get the chance.

I have to say that I have been an all or nothing person for years but have come to terms with that and have decided I need to work on making a decision. Right now I am in a rather gray area.

I wish you would explain further your feelings. Whatever they are welcome to Sam's Place.

Hi Sara,
What you said is very interesting to me, because I immediately got confused. (Confusion is irresistible to me.)
You said you identify with all-or-nothing kinds of believers, and then you also identify with people who don't know what they believe, but need to find concrete reasons for their convictions.
If I'm interpreting you correctly, these seem really different.
Is it like you are in between, drawn back and forth by differing thoughts and needs? You sound like you're very thoughtful. That can be a real problem if you are drawn to the all-or-nothing side.
I'm one of those "people who have an entire set of morals based on what they feel is right, and works for them," as you so well put it. Could you share more?

Hi Sara:

Interesting that you should suggest that atheists/agnostics base their lives on "what they believe to be right". Don't we all do that and is there really any alternative?

I was born into an Anglican family switched -- by choice -- to Quakerism and have ended up an agnostic. And throughout all of these changes my ethical and moral outlook has not really changed one jot or one tittle. My ideas of what is right and wrong have survived intact.

It is hard for me to see how you can feel more at home with Muslims than you do with atheists/agnostics. Even moderate Muslims tend to be very fundamentalist -- believing in the literal existence of Adam and Eve and regarding belief in evolution as a crime. They even go so far as to regard switching from the Muslim faith to some other faith or no faith as punishable by death.

You suggest that it is the "all or nothing" attitude of Muslims which makes you feel comfortable with them. But, in very truth, we atheists and agnostics are also "all or nothing" types. We feel -- rightly or wrongly -- that we humans would be much better off without dogmatic religious beliefs and affiliations. Being a not-quite-sure type is simply a way-station on the road to sanity and becoming at one with ourselves.

Hi Sara-I meant to begin my last post that way, thought I typed it, but I guess not.

It turns out lots of the Christians (the ones I know, anyway) really fall into the we're-not-sure-what-we-believe category when it comes to metaphysics at least. Many are now doubting whether or not Jesus was divine, or even if there have been miracles. They question the virgin birth. They may even be questioning whether or not there is a god, but since they want this to be true, and since they have kind Christian parents, they still call themselves Christians.
What is agreed upon is that we all should do our best to work hard and be good people. Sadly, some are still afraid that they have to accept the parts of Christianity they doubt in order to benefit from the company of good Christians.

I've been lucky in that the good Christians I know don't exclude me from their friendships because I don't believe in their god. I also don't concern myself with the ones who claim to be good Christians, but do not seem to "practice what they preach".
I'm not sure what you meant by "politically exasperated people", but I truly hope nobody loves to hate you.
One last thing-I hope nobody reading this took my last post to mean that I don't want to hear Christians talk about the Bible in public. My main concern was the fact that they were having the Cross vs. Stake("What was He hung on?") discussion in the company of young children. Most grown-ups I know would save that one for the adult after-service Bible study group or something.

Ok this thread seems to have got quiet. Too quiet=)

So ok I'm one of those Christians politically exasperated people love to hate. And I find alot more in common with Muslims who share an "all or nothing" commitment to their beliefs about the truth of this life, that include an invisible God, than in people who have an entire set of morals based on what they feel is right, and works for them.

I also identify with people who dont know WHAT they believe, but realize they need to find concrete reasons for their convictions.

I am not typecasting agnostics or atheists in this comment.

Ur turn =)

Awww Richard

I don't think there is a need for embarrassment.

I don't think any of us knew.

The site is up and running. See you there.

Okay, I stand corrected. Imagine my embarassment.

I've been beginning to get the idea that Torrey is not who or what I've been assuming Torrey is, but I'll wait to be corrected.

Thanks Richard!

I did hear from Torrey.

I think you might be in for a bit of a surprise.

lol

Tammy,
When you get an email you feel safe with, send it to me at
niceatheist@ca.rr.com That's the only one exposed to this public blog. Then with your express permission I can send it to Torrey, who can send you the access code to get into the site. Also, only with your express permission, I can send your email address to Ted, Robin and Pam as well.

Robin,
Check your email. I sent you a letter. Five of us now share our emails. Send a note to Torrey and he'll send you the access codes. He may be out right now, and I think he has the slow journey down to the end of this thread.

I don't know how to get there either.

HELP!!!!!

Is there a website I can go to, Torrey, or do I have to get an email invite? If so, I'll set up a separate address as Richard so wisely suggested. I used to have a yahoo one, it may still be active...
I just overheard the most ridiculous conversation while I was waiting for my kids' gymnastics class to be over, and this is a new one to me. Two Christians were griping about a mormon, and saying how silly their (the mormons') book is! What was news to me was that apparently there's some Cross vs. Stake controversy(as in "From what was our Lord barbarously hung?") of which I've been ignorant.Common ground!
It's good to see that all of you are hooking up; I can only hope that there are more little groups forming everywhere.

Speaking of ghosts I wrote a very long message this morning hit the post key and away it went. Somewhere but not here. Now I can't remember a word of what I said so I suppose it might not have been very important.

Richard, you had me thinking all day about the GOD question. I do believe I have an answer but need to put some more thought into it.

Take care all

Ted,
There seems to be a weird translation problem between my text and yours. The two letters in the address immediately after @ca. are the lower case letters that would stand for railroad. They're actually the initials of my server, roadrunner. Why these lower case letters sounding like "are are" are showing up as capital letters sounding like "Eye Tea" is another of the deep mysteries of the internet. Don't give up.

Sorry Richard. I still don't get it. I don't see the difference between the email address I tried to use which was niceatheist@ca.IT.com and what you have written -- except that in your version the IT appears to be in small caps. Will try again using cut an paste.

Welcome Denny Hare:

Your contribution is certainly short sharp and to the point. I hope you don't feel as if you have entered a den of thieves. We are actually a very friendly mutually supportive bunch that doesn't bite or say nasty things about each other.

God is reported to have said to Moses from the burning bush: I am who I am (Exodus 3:13). And I have long felt that this implies that reality is what it is and we have to accept it as it is. Moreover, when Moses asked what he should tell the people about the name of the god who sent him the message he got back was: I AM has sent me to you -- not Jehovah or Elohim or Allah or Ahura Mazda but simply I AM. And that is how I have to interpret the Psalm you quote. For me it can only mean: Be still and know that I AM WHAT I AM.

The theologian Paul Tillich often used to speak of the "God above God" (above all our perceptions of God and independent of all the names we give to God) -- which I likewise interpret as meaning the ultimate nature of reality.

Stay well,

. . Ted . .

Hey all,
Torrey has set up a very nice website with all sorts of cool ways for us to share and communicate.
A few of you have sent me your email messages, and one has said it's okay to share their email address with the others, but I'm not going to return anybody's email unless you explicitly say either in the email message or here, that it's okay to do so. I don't want anyone receiving stuff from me that they don't want. Yes, permission may be implied by writing to me, but forgive me for being so anal. It's from years of rigorous training about confidentiality in my counselor days. Once that's all settled, the communications can flow.

Sombody leave a window open?

Ted, it's niceatheist@ca.rr.com
See you there.

Have tried niceatheist@ca.IT.com with no success. What am I doing wrong?

Wow, you sure have eniciated a voluminious amount of comments. I think the the answer to the question lies at the end of Psalm 46.
Be still and know, that I am. GOD

Torrey

Thats a great idea and I'm in.

Richard

You can give the address out I gave.

Thanks for the answer to my questions. I did explain the one and the other paranormal. Well that just comes from that I know a man at work that dabbles in Ghost Hunting. He brings tapes and pictures in and I find it interesting but am skeptical. Very skeptical and sometimes laughable. But interesting non of the less. One time when he was telling me a story of when he visited Gettysburg, another man overheard and he suggested this was the devils work. He said he was born again and I said I was a non believer. Well, that just brought on a barage of....I need to get Jesus into my heart and the only true way was to be born again to find the gates of heaven yada yada yada.

That is another reason, I hesitate in *coming out*
I figure that is about as good as it gets with most people....The big lecture. The *Greatest Lie* Ever Told. Its tiresome rhetoric and one I have very little to no patience for. If it could be an open dialouge, I could hang, but I fear it rarely will be.

I have always been a risk taker. I don't know if thats good or bad. I suppose it depends on the risk. This one doesn't especially scare me to try. I just will become increasingly annoyed if it goes as I mentioned above.

Well, I am off to work. I work at a post office, so hopefully if any of you mailed any packages and xmas cards they will make it on time. If not, I suppose you can blame it on me as I have other things on my mind. I tend to take this thread with me of late.

Have a good day all!

Cool. I'll be looking for it. I keep dozing off though. The cat's in my lap and she's so......warm.......

I'm going to set one up right now. I'll send you an access code to your niceatheist address. I have to give it a name and will pick some innocuous thing, but it can always be changed at any time (I know you'll have some good ideas!).

Torrey, I can't see what the risk actually is, especially if I use an alternate email so my business email isn't exposed to... well, what? So what if I'm a creepy bald woman with a hairy back and a hook for a hand? I can't reach anybody else. Now, maybe I'm a little prejudiced, because I worry about the Mormon company. How many of them have hooks for hands? Naw, I'm not gonna live in fear. Besides, I have mine.

Here's another idea for a website. MyFamily.com offers a free website for friends and/or families. My huge family (on three continents) has had one for the past six+ years and we love it. Only problem is, it would require each participant to allow the site administrator (me) to have access to their email address. I know I'm naive, so tell me if this is not a good idea (for security or other reasons). The site takes about three minutes to set up. It's run by a Mormon company here in Utah.

Yo Torrey!! Good to see you back. Scroll up and get my email address for an emergency rendezvous in case this joint is raided. Weird about that lost post and that refusal message. I should be the one getting that. Yeah we need a “hi sign” like the con artists touching their noses in “The Sting.” It’s so funny seeing how much this is like coming out as a gay person; who’s going to take the risk, what will happen? Even Dawkins speaks about learning from the Gay and Feminist movements about consciousness raising. Can you imagine marching in the Atheists and Agnostics Pride Parade? or:

I am godless, hear me roar
In numbers to big to ignore
And I know too much to go back and pretend.
'Cause I've heard it all before
And your beliefs are such a bore
No one's ever gonna make me pray again…

Hi Everybody else! Sorry this entry is so long, but I'm playing catch up. The email works! This is a big accomplishment for one of the last of the analog generation. Remember, I won’t answer or mention your emails without your say so.
Now to all the things you guys have written, in no particular order.

Tammy, your hubby is wise to be cautious about the email thing. I completely understand. For all anybody knows, I could be a creepy bald woman with hair on her back and a hook for a hand. Safety is why I created a new email box instead of my own general one. If screwballs lurking out there flood it with hate mail, I can just delete it. I’m not very worried about my personal safety though. I’ve got my hook to protect me.

Ted, to suggest your question to On Faith, go to the top of this page, way, way up there, and click on “Main Page.” At the bottom of the first light blue box with a list of panelist’s questions, it says:

Join the Conversation. Add your Comment >>
E-mail On Faith. Propose A Question >>

Click on that second line and you’ll get an email window specifically for proposing questions. If that doesn’t work, as it doesn’t on my Mac, just copy and paste this email address to your own email:
onfaith@washingtonpost.com
Hope it happens.
About the being drunk on discussion boards, should we change “In Vino Veritas” to “In Cybro Veritas?”
The more I think about Atran’s assertion about religion and beauty, etc., the more annoyed I become. What rubbish! Talk about making an assertion with no evidence. Now I want to find lots of examples of people who created beauty and didn’t believe squat.

Pam, I’ll be making the rounds of other questions out there. If I see you, I won’t bug you. …too much. Hope the website you’re planning happens. That would be great. I sometimes visit a science discussion site called “Everything Science” with lots of members, (free) many questions in various areas with the numbers of comments and dates of last entries, private discussion threads, public chat rooms and private chat rooms, and lists of pertinent websites. It even has a place they call the “café,” where they relax and talk about non-scientific things. Just some ideas. Does that kind of thing cost much? I’d make a donation once it’s up.
Oh, I wanted to ask you, if it’s okay, why do you always spell GOD with all capitals? It’s unique to your posts.

Robin, to your very pertinent and interesting question to each of us about spirits, ghosts and the paranormal.
Because I don’t believe or disbelieve anything, I follow Carl Sagan’s maxim, “Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.” For centuries people have told stories of encounters with spooks, or creepy feelings in houses, etc. Whenever it is carefully investigated, (not like those clowns on the SciFi station) there’s either no evidence at all, or evidence of fraud.
However, many people report experiencing the presence or influence of deceased loved ones; both my mother and my wife have had such. I never argue with anyone who tells me their experiences. I treat them with tender respect. It’s a very intimate thing to share. They are precious to the teller, and of great comfort to them. Because I seem to be a “weak atheist” (hate that term) who simply does not do the activity of believing or disbelieving, I can be quite agnostic about it. Who am I to say "no" to someone who has shared something so vulnerable? Whether the loved one is there on some other plane of existence, or is living on in the mind and heart of the living person becomes a blurred and moot point. It’s another part of a complex and mysterious thing called humanity.
Now if by paranormal you mean things like ESP, clairvoyance, telepathy, and remote viewing, I’m “agnostic” in that open-minded way, but very skeptical as well. So far, careful investigations of people’s claims again show either no evidence at all, or evidence of fraud. Everybody has stories of their own experiences of knowing things they shouldn’t have known, including me, but I also know very well how the mind can “cut and paste” things into new sequences and chronological orders, then delete the old versions and it all seems so real and amazing. But… Show me the extraordinary evidence from controlled tests, not anecdotes.

Tammy, Pam and Robin, I’m amazed by your stories of broaching the subject of non-belief with relatives and friends. And then you’re going to do it again! I’m just too scared. Even with my hook. I only talk about this with my bestest best friend Jim, a fellow member of our astronomy club. Smartest guy I personally know, and he and I are both rabid, cackling blasphemers. He broached it with me. Most stories I hear from others sound pretty unpleasant, and so I ask myself why would I want to go through that, and what would be the point? I’m not saying you shouldn’t. For personal growth, for making a relationship more complete and genuine, or for breaking down stereotypes and prejudices, you go, girls!
I’ll be over here under this table.

Well, because I’m out here on the Ring of Fire, you’re all in dreamland by now. Catch you later.

That 'anonymous' above was me. I'm having several difficulties on this site. Sometimes my postings are 'refused' because I've supposedly 'posted too many comments'!

I posted here yesterday but it has disappeared! Shame that we can't blame things like that on the devil.

Last weekend a couple of neighbors stopped by my house at the same time. One noticed 'The God Delusion' on the coffee table and off we went! One of them said he's an atheist too and the other claimed to be agnostic. But I guess I shouldn't have been surprised: one is an anthropologist and the other a biology professor.
I've known them for several years but never asked 'the question'. After all, it is a bit rude, don't you think? Perhaps we need a secret handshake...

Richard

Great idea. I only thought it looked like it was winding down because there was only 3 of us here the last couple days. Pam reminded me it was the Xmas season and folks had other things to do. I also was just hoping that at some point since this thread is so long, it wouldn't say..last post allowed. lol I really am going to do the book thing, but I am going to wait until after the holidays are over. Maybe its respect or a cop out, but I don't want to start controversy at a time for most is suppose to be a joyful time.

Tammy

Its so nice to have you back. I just started coming here and well, it seemed it was winding down and there was so much more I wanted to learn and talk about and you were an important part of that. Thank you for checking back.

The ghost, spirit question was asked because 30 years ago after my mothers passing she came to visit me. It was 2 mos after her death and while I was still sad I was no longer in crisis mode. I never had said anything to anyone as I thought they would think I was nutz. Years later I told a doctor about it and they told me as you said, the mind is tricky. And at times will comfort you where you can't find it elsewhere. I found that a understandable and accepted it as an explanation. But I must admit over the years at times I wanted to hold on to the thought that she really had come to see me and talk. It made it feel more comforting, obviously.

As an atheist I have always held on to the knowledge for myself when death occurs that, that is just it. Nothing, no more, nada. Like falling asleep and never waking again. I have absolutely no problem with that at all. I guess I sometimes just like to think she really came to visit.

Tammy, you gave me much to think about in your post today. I have been mentally reviewing my close friends and what would happen if I brought up the topic of religion. I did this once with what I thought was a "very" close friend and it did not go well. She was Catholic. Her children are both non belivers but have allowed her to take their child to church and do all of the Catholic garbage that goes along with it. I simply questioned how they arrived at that decision and she was off and running.

I was taught that one never discusses religion or politics with anyone or the world as I know it may come to and end. Old fashioned probably but see how those old wives tales haunt one forever. I would say that my family worshipped politics more than they did religion come to think of it. However, I have lived with that Golden Rule most of my adult life. Maybe why I am now obsessed with this website and all you people. It is almost like giving myself permission to brake that rule. I suppose you have already recognized that I am rather rebellious by nature. So this sure feels good.

I will be anxious to hear any information on how others have had discussions on this and survived it. I am going to make an effort when I get back home to do some research of my own.

What do I have to lose? The christians already believe that the world is going to end soon anyway.

Tammy I love all your posts today. You missed us. I would bet you would be a great teacher. You are so good and kind to us here. Science was one of my favorite subjects but I also hated math. My home budget shows it too. LOL

Richard, I saw you next door and we have to stop meeting like this. People will start to talk!
;-). I posted on the Christian Nation question. That one really got me going.

Okay, so now I'm still here, for now. I just stopped in, and have to let you know, Richard, how utterly jealous I am that you're exploding stuff in libraries. I always wanted to be a science teacher, honestly, but they have to be good at math...

Hi everybody! I have Q's and A's for all of you, but I have to go explode a large volcano inside a library. I get up later than the rest of you, so my work day's just starting. I'll see you early (for me) this evening. Sharp eyes, Tammy! I asked Torrey to check in. Good to see you next door Pam!

Hi again, all (and after this, thankfully, I'll be away from this infernal craptrap for most of the day); I just had a Torrey sighting! I'm pretty sure it was "our" Torrey, posting over on the "Is America a Christian nation?" section of the site.

Hi again, Pam. I do trust you about the mental health practitioners where you live; I was just talking about what people where I live experience. We have to drive quite a ways if we need much of anything in the way of specialized medicine. I also wouldn't want you to think I have a low opinion of these psychological counselors, who no doubt help many of those they serve.

Tammy it seems we are often on the same wave length. I believe as a small group here we have found the fellowship we so crave that people of religion have. I have missed your posts of late. My son is the IT Manager at his place of employment and built their website. I am sure in time he could do wonders for us. I am thinking of ways to promote it that would help to spread the news. Ha Ha just like a mother to be way ahead of the game especially since I have not yet spoken to him.

I have often wondered how you handle the business of religion with your children. Since you home school them I would think you have an edge. However, people will be people.

I can relate a recent conversation I had with a friend to is into Astrology/Mystics/Ghosts and I was telling her about this website and she went off on this tangent asking me if I haven't ever had a miracle happen to me. I said I didn't really think so and at that point she went into this long speech about several things that she needed guidance on and how she prayed over them and alas GOD helped her. I did not know what to say to her. My question was "Are you sure it just wasn't mind over matter?" I am not going any further with this on here but I did receive a very long explanation as to why that could not be. So much for an open mind.

Ted, I appreciate you asking Atran the question I asked about art/music/poetry because I am searching my mind as to why that would be. I am not much for poetry but have been an art/music lover for years and never even considered "MY" interest having anything to do with religion. While I can see that it may for many people I cannot see that it would fade into the sunset for the rest of us. The majority of the art I have in my house I am sure is not GOD inspired.

Another thought Tammy is that if you live in a very rural area of the state I think that any counseling would almost like be done by church organizations. In my part of the state we do have many churches that provide family/individual help and that would of course be faith based. However, we do have many other choices that would not be faith based. Trust me on this one.

I will end by saying that maybeI should ask my friend to pray for the safe return of Torry and Alain.

Sorry for my sick sense of humor but I couldn't resist it.

I forgot to thank you, Richard, for setting up a place for us to go. If I don't use it, it won't be because I'm done talking to you, but because my husband sees it as a security breach.

Pam, we were posting at the same time (actually, I began work on that last bible-of-a-post before 10am, had to drop it & get back to it at least 3 times). I hope it goes well with your son. So many of the atheist sites I've seen have little of Fellowship to them, unless your idea of Fellowship is ripping on other people's delusions. Maybe we're just completely uncool because we crave the fellowship we're missing by not going to church. I've had the same idea lately about a website but I always feel like who the heck am I, anyways; someone really smart will have to do this.

Robin:

I have no idea why Atran suggested that, if formal religion faded away, poetry and art (and presumably music) would have to fade away as well. So, as of now, God and Atran alone know. It is all part of his contention that poetry, art and religious beliefs all belong together in a category which does not allow us to sensibly ask whether they are true or false. In my follow-up second letter to Atran I have specifically focused on this strange idea -- but I doubt whether he will even bother to reply.

Richard:

I would be happy to contact the ON FAITH organizers at Washington Post/Newsweek by email (suggesting a poll of users regarding the issue of having doubts about religious beliefs) but don't know how to do so. Can you help?

Happy Monday, everyone! Ted, as always, you voiced what I've been feeling perfectly, when you said that being on the computer like this is like being drunk; we're closer to expressing our true selves than when we talk face-to-face with people we know. That's a good bit of the reason I took the weekend off; I read your posts, and the only thing I could add was, "yeah, me too", or "amen".Robin, Pam, Richard, Ted, you're always expressing my thoughts, and it's getting creepy!

When I mentioned the psychological services, I wasn't talking about M.D. psychiatrists, or psychologists with PhD.s- there aren't any out here in the boonies. We have counselors with M.A.s, and while I'm sure they're dedicated to helping the people they serve, I was told by my family Dr. that anyone in need of a psychiatrist has to travel an hour or more. This is also true for other areas of medicine like pediatric opthamologists, for example.

I can't remember where I read this or heard of it, but it was in regards to an intensive, I think, Hindu, spiritual training. The gist of it was that you should not go into the training unless you feel as if you are on fire, and you seek out the training as if it were water. I've been reading everything about any religion for a few years now, and I do still feel like I'm on fire, but not because I'm not sure what to think anymore. The poll that Ted sited, where about 45% of repondants admit to being unsure, is much closer to representing reality for the people I know. People aren't necesarily calling themselves christians because they take the bible to be the literal and unerring word of god; I've said this before, but so many still say they are christians because it hurts too bad to be left out of that club. Also, they don't concern themselves with the origin of creation, or whether or not we have souls, because it doesn't seem to have any bearing on their daily lives. I've been working up my nerve and having conversations(one by one, mind you) with friends & family about this subject, and so far, it's solidifed two relationships and placed a rift in another. I don't talk as if I really have anything figured out, and I pick the people and occassions for these conversations very carefully. I was compelled to begin this line of inquiry because of relatives bringing up god and Jesus to my oldest when she was about 3; it bugged me that someone I love wanted my tiny child to hear the biblical story of Easter. To her, it's supposed to be a story of eternal love and forgiveness, but I see it as a horror story and not age-appropriate. This difference between me and almost everyone I respect has caused me to read everything I can in search of better answers to my own questions, and the questions from those who ask me, "What church do you guys go to", or the ever-confounding, "When will you have the girls dedicated{in church}". Posting here, as if we are all conversing with each other, has helped me initiate dialogues I would've been chicken to start before I read all the words put out by everyday people, people who don't get paid to post their opinions. There is most definately safety in numbers.

Well, I've gone on quite long enough, but I do wish to respond to Robin's question, not 'cause I have a great answer, but mainly because it stinks when nobody answers your well-thought-out questions. Also, it's not off-point at all, but actually the heart of the point! These questins that get posted publically tend to be vague to the point of meaninglessness. "Can there be common ground...", for example. Please. That doesn't ask anyone to get real, lay out exactly what they think, the way Robin's question about ghosts/spirits does, or Ted's idea of asking how many people have true doubts about what their church believes.
Well, Robin, my answer to your pertinent & meaningful question: I'm not sure. I (and lots of people I trust not to have been drunk or crazy at the time) have had experiences I couldn't explain. My instinct tells me to doubt that these experiences have anything to do with souls or anything, and that our minds can be unbelievable tricksters.

Another thought.

Ted I don't understand why Atran would say that if formal religion faded so would poetry and art. Do you understand his reasoning on this?

My son is a computer "nerd". I am going to ask him if he would be able to design a website that we could use to attract others out there in the world to post. I am sure I will get some sort of reaction when I tell him the subject matter.

Ted, I am sure there are many people out there that would love to "come out" of the closet. We need a way to help them do that. Yea right! I have always been somewhat a dreamer.

This has been so helpful to me to be able to talk about what has been going on inside my brain and having NO way to talk to anyone about it. And then have people that listen, comment thoughtfully and teach at the same time is great.

Richard, we are not trying to be the bearer of bad news here about this site going away. I can assure you people will stop blogging before it actually goes away. Both you and Ted are great at keeping the conversation on track and us all something talk or think about. So you two are the "appointed" ones.

Thanks for the email and I have already added to my favorites for future use. I am rather slow moving sometimes but I am going out there in the cold cruel world and so some research. I have no problem with gently bringing this up in conversation and will certainly return with my experiences. I believe in Attraction Rather Than Promotion. If I can show someone who is qustioning or doubting where they are with religion that I am as human as they are it might work. I don't believe it works to preach to someone. That makes me as insane as the religious ones.

OK people I am out of here for now but will certainly return.

Take care

Robin, (and everybody)
Why do you think this thread is coming to an end? Have I missed some news? I know nothing lasts forever, but I still have so many questions to ask each of you. It's scary how attached I have become to you people. I've grown a great affection for these minds I've glimpsed. I know, I'm the ex-buddhist, so I'm supposed to know that attaching brings suffering, but it happens anyway. So I'll suffer later. Make it much later, please. This forgotten thread has become a refuge for me. When I want to mix it up with somebody new, I go next door, or even to Pharyngula or some place to have a good argument. But because no one but we seven remember this place, we've been able to talk more about ourselves and each other, not just "the issue" in that public sense. That has been so valuable to me, to put it and hear it in a more personal perspective.

I have been having this waking dream about people floating on water in little individual rafts, surrounded by thick, blue-gray fog. They can't see each other, but only hear each other's voices. They are the last few who have not drifted apart. They find they have important things in common, hopes, fears, doubts, certainties. They have created something rare, a camaraderie. The currents of their lives pull them in different directions, and they will eventually drift away, but they can paddle a little toward the voices, and stay nearby for a little longer, until the mutual healing has finished. By sharing they give each other permission to say what they never could say before, and understand what used to puzzle them. They can't see or touch, and perhaps shouldn't try, but they still support each other, and are better for it.
Go to your work and try the opener, then come back and tell us about it. I can't wait to hear how it goes. Go to a meeting and tangle with a bible thumper, then vent your frustration here. Go next door for a good fight, and then come back here and crow about it and cry about it. Argue with a punk scientist and share your best points with everyone. This is our debriefing room.

I don't want to lose contact with you just because of my own negligence if this thread closes down before we're all ready to say adieu. So I just opened a new email box just for us. We can use it as a mooring mast in the fog. A rendezvous, a clearing house, a place to pass contacts to each other, tell each other where we're having fun on the net lately. I will not return a message unless you explicitly say to, I will forward email only if you explicitly say to. No information about who or where we are will be shared without explicit instructions and permission. If you don't want to use it, and want to just move on, okay, no hard feelings. At least it was available. Copy this to your address books:

niceatheist@ca.rr.com

I figured out how to find an opener. I will take the God Delusion to work and see what happens.

Don't know why it took me so long to think of that specially since you've all talked about that in earlier posts.

Goodnight all. Have a good day tomorrow or today depending on getting here.

Robin

Ted,

I told myself earlier at work, no computer when you get home. Just go to bed early and start out fresh.

Well, I just keep getting drawn back. I see though that the thread is basically coming to an end. I really wish Harris would post a new question. *Sigh*

I agree about the drunk part. One of the advantages of anonymity of the web. Even if we do pass each other on the street, we will never realize it.

Richard,

I like your Gilligans Island tune. It looks like the tides coming in and we are all going to be washed back to shore. Go our separate ways. Hopefully meet back up again for a new ride (question).

Everyone-Anyone

This may or maynot be off-topic. I have a question for anyone to answer. I will explain why I ask after the opinions are in, if anyone is interested.

As atheists/agnostics, your thoughts on spirits ghosts, the paranormal.

Ted, that would make a great question for On Faith. Would you be willing to suggest it? With an introduction about the poll, they might go for it. I'd be fascinated to read the responses. I'd probably not say much if anything, out of respect. That would be a way to help them along; giving people permission to get it off their chests.

Lots of hidden talent around. Even a poet in our midst. So much for Atran's view that if formal religion faded from the scene poetry and art would have to fade from the scene as well.

Actually we owe a lot to Sam for generating the most active site -- by far -- amongst all the participants. Am glad he got honourable mention in the poem.

Incidentally I saw a poll recently which asked the right question namely:

Do you have any doubts about the beliefs of the church to which you belong?

No less than 45% said: YES. So there is a huge hidden group of individuals out there who are open to breaking loose from formal religious ties. If only we could help them along somehow.

Ah Richard! How nice. I love the seven sincerely searching souls.

The thread’s aground on the shore of this uncharted part of the site,
With seven stranded castaways who stay up talking all night.
There’s Richard, Ted and Tammy too, Pam and Robin her sis,
Torrey and Alain Machefert, (whom we’re beginning to miss.)

Sometimes their lives go easily, sometimes their lives are rough,
But they all are so encouraging as they sort through all their stuff.
So join us here each night my friends, you’re sure to get a smile,
From seven sincerely searching souls here on Harris’s isle.

Ted if you are correct about writing emails and contributing to web based discussion groups is a bit like getting drunk and having our true natures coming out then I should be able to do this. I certainly never had a problem with getting drunk and I am sure my true nature came out often. So here goes the "real" me. (Get ready this may be a long one.)

First, I must say that Robin is my "much" younger sister. In many ways it is hard to believe we grew up on the same house. I have been told this is often the case in families. Robin received a Catholic education which I did not. This decision was not made for the religious angle but simply for the education part. The three of us children received very little religious teaching from our parents. This I know now has much to do with her atheism. Second, I did not know until recently that she was an atheist. There are many reasons for that which I will not go into detail here. However, if someone does not even know that about a family member how many others out there that I know are among the non-believers in this world. Can any of you tell me how many there are out there? Does anyone even have a clue? I have known one person who outwardly admitted that he was an atheist and when he told me I was stunned. Maybe because I never knew anyone personally. I don't think I was judging just very surprised.

I seem to be the one struggling with all of this, as it appears to me that you guys have already decided which side of the fence you are on. When I started recovery from alcohol I was very much a "why" person. I spent the first five years reading, listening, learning, digging in books, tapes. You name it I did it. I needed to know why. Of course like many things there is no definate answer as to WHY. Many studies, opinions, and so forth. So I listened and learned and came to my own conclusion as to the answer that best satisfied me. I guess you could say I found my own personal truth.

So now the search is on with religion or maybe the lack of religion. That was the reason for me to come to this webpage. To listen and learn and decide what is right for me.

I never believed in fairy tales and for that reason just couldn't buy what most religions were selling. It just doesn't make sense to me. After my mother's death I again went on a search for something to help me to heal from that. Religion of any kind didn't help. Nothing really helped me except for the passing of time.

In the last 20 years I can't remember one person that asked me what I believed. People that know me well know I don't attend any church but I am sure they think I believe in GOD simply because I have never said I didn't. In AA when people tell me to pray I just say sure OK whatever. But I don't.

I feel like I am at another crossroad in my life right now. Another search in my journey. I seldom have much more to contribute other than my own personal experiences or feelings. All of you on this page and other pages have taught me so much. I see on many of the posts next door what I don't want to believe and on this particular page what I can honestly believe and much knowledge to back up the information. Thanks for being my teacher on this part of my journey.

Later

Robin:

Sorry about the lack of sleep. We all start -- every day -- from where we are at. And either move forwards, stagnate or move backwards. Seems to me you are moving forwards steadily. You write very well and very clearly. It is never really a hassle trying to follow what you are saying.
It is not exactly easy to convey what we want to convey electronically but I have long been aware that some people manage to do this quite well and others don't. And you are in the do it pretty well category. I sometimes idly speculate that writing emails and contributing to web based discussion groups is a bit like getting drunk. It tends to bring out our true natures.

Keep well. . . Ted . .

Ok, well hopefully you can sleep. I should too. I’m starting to have little hallucinations from sleep deprivation. I read your stuff carefully and take the time to respond because you’re so honest. There’s a lot there that I recognize, and it’s not that I can say, “Oh yeah, been there, done that.” You and Pam and Tammy have this vulnerable but fearless earnestness that I admire. I don’t presume to teach you or anyone here. I’m just want to learn and get less confused too. Ok I’m going to bed, and I’ll re-read your posts again when I can think straight. ‘Night.

I read them 3 times. You still there?

No, I dozed off in front of this infernal machine. Let me read your posts...

Still can't sleep.

One of the things I typed and then deleted was how I just sit quietly by in my life trying to live by example. But if no one knows I am an atheist what the heck kind of example is that. They just assume I am a believer so......

Can't challenge or raise consciousness that way. And the fact that I am a boat rocker in so many other ways but this one. And that is what has kept me up tonight is wondering why this has been so different for me from the other situations, where I have no problem rebelling against.

Truth is most of the people I know are not practicing anything. They say they believe in God but the only thing they really practice is prayer in times of need. I don't mean to sound condescending or judgemental, I am just trying to explain that none really has any religious convictions or discipline. So the topic never comes up.

So, I am thinking that maybe I could find a way to just throw something out there to get some kind of dialogue up. Come a little further out of my comfort zone.

Ok, so that is where my mind is at tonight which hopefully now that I have typed it out, I can go and finally fall asleep.

Thank you little square box for being my ear.

Thank you Richard, work was ok. And I hope you have gotten a good nights sleep.

Couldn't sleep anyway.

Richard when I say something is over my head or my thinking is infantile. I am not downing myself or my abilities. What I am saying is that I am a *realist* and being one I realize the the truth is that my education level and my intellect on this subject at the moment doesn't even come close to the rest. Its the real true facts. As Pam said before we grew up street smart not book smart. Nothing to be proud of nothing to be ashamed of. It is what it is.

I am not saying I can't learn and that I am not interested in learning more. I am just saying at this point I really don't have much to offer, or at least feel I can offer. And when I do put down my thoughts and I appreciate the time you take to reply, but I do realize there is just so much more about it that I am not even close to. So I think its best I just tag along continue to read, learn and there will be times I will ask a question or so.

Everyone has been really nice, kind and patient, so by no means at all do I feel like this because someone has made me feel it. I am just in awe of the intelligence of this small group in here.

And you particualarly have just a fantastic way with the written word. I have been on the net for a pretty long time and found that a lot of misunderstandings come about because the way someone writes is not read with the intent. Its hard for people to type their tone of voice. Some how you make it look easy with your writing.
Its a gift. I haven't seen it happen often. And even when your kicking someones butt you do it with such kindness.

Anyway, I'll be here reading and learning and start asking. Keep on keeping on, your all great teachers.

Oops. I meant Robin. Guess I need sleep too.

Tammy,
Please don't say your thoughts are infantile here. That's simply not true. What you assert and what you wonder about aloud genuinely wakes me up and makes me think. A couple of the others have made similar self-descriptions, then they blow my mind. None of us are sages, but we aint idiots. Hope you had a nice day at work.

Oh P.S.

I saw how you kicked Gods A$$. Very good job.

I both admire and envy your way with words.

Thou shall covet they neighbors words because he kicked Gods butt next door.

Frankenstein??? That was great!

Richard,

I really like your example of overlapping circles. And as I mentioned up there debate is good and I know its needed. Debate certainly allows us to learn many things about the topic and the people involved. And if it includes us personaly we can even learn something new about ourselves.

I don't take it as lecturing. I know my thoughts are infantile at best in this arena. I am here to learn and understand and grateful you take the time.

I have typed and deleted too many times. So I am just gonna say goodnite now.

Thanks again for your patience.

Robin,
Thanks for your perspective. Sitting back and taking a breather sounds like a good idea. Finally finding people with whom I can talk about these things has made me a little giddy, and I'm obsessing. It's fun and exciting, and it's growthful, but other important things need attending to as well.
Maybe your living by example and having the good qualities is the only really important thing, and proving a point that atheists can be nice too is secondary. I agree with Dawkins when he talks about how raising consciousness in people about non-believers and challenging their negative stereotypes is important, but any campaign for respect and acceptance must never become more important than simple, decent interaction with our community.
When you spoke about the common ground problems, I thought of two circles overlapping. If there's a small fish-shaped part where they overlap, their common ground is small. If the overlap is large, then only two narrow crescent-shaped sections are the parts that they don't share as common. People and groups are like that. Every combination of circles will fall with different amounts of overlap, of common ground. Everyone has at least a little. Basic things like wanting to survive, the importance of keeping children safe and well, things that even though they are a small, fish-shaped overlap can be important enough to get people to stop their bickering and work together for that common good thing. Having some not-common ground can be a good thing, too. Harris, Dawkins, Dennet and Atran are probably circles that overlap mostly, but those thin crescent shapes of difference cause them to challenge each other toward better excellence, like two rival companies competing and producing better products. Ted points out the best way for science to operate is to be competitive rather than confrontational.

Well, I'm not lecturing you on this, I'm just sorting out my own confusion out loud. You're out right now living your example. That's the best idea. I'm going out now to be a nice atheist without anyone knowing.

Richard I think we are all fatalists some point or another, in each day, month, time period or other.

Its very hard when you see a vision and do not know how to make or help make that vision happen, or the thought that that vision may not happen in my lifetime. I know for me if I continue to focus on a particularly hard subject, I can become consumed with how I want it or think it should be and how I can participate in making it happen. And when it doesn't seem to be moving along at the speed I think it should be it can be very depressing to say the least.

Sometimes I have to just sit back, take a breather and continue on another day. I think thats why forums such as this one is very helpful in the way of people sharing feelings, thoughts and ideas. It also allows us to see we are not swimming against the tide alone.

Thats why when I spoke of organized atheism it almost gagged me. I certainly don't want to see the same sort of dogma that could eventually attached itself.

In my little corner of the world, I guess I have decided to live by example. Course, that is not necessarily proving much if no one knows I am an atheist. They assume your a believer, because that is the norm. Sometimes I get frustrated about that and want to stand up and scream *I am atheist* and I have all the *so called good qualities* as believers do. But then I am sure they will put a straight jacket on me and take me away! As I tend to rock the boat in other areas as well.

I think common ground is almost impossible as both parties have to lay down the will to be right and that is to strong a feeling in humans. Usually to our detriment. Especially to subjects near and dear. Now there is a pessimistic statement and one I would love to be proven wrong.
Look at the fact that all of them Harris, Dawkins, Dennett and Atran are basically on the same side but debate each other. Please don't misunderstand, I think debate is good, no matter who. I just wonder, how common ground can be found if not even the like minded can seem to find it very easily.

Have a good day! I am off to work now.

I just took on "God" next door, and I kicked his ass. Man, that was fun.

Ted,
You argue masterfully. So graceful. I read it twice, and I'll have to go back again after some things incubate for a while. You made me see I must try to think with more suppleness like, "neither illogical nor incomprehensible but purely and simply baseless." The one that I'm really going to ponder over is your distinction between "that which is non-rational but not necessarily irrational."

Atran sounds like a romantic poet, saying that we will lose the good if we cast off the bad, the dreams along with the nightmares, etc. I know that's romantic nonsense, but I think I understand where he's coming from emotionally. Lately I share the pessimism that you exposed in him, his "counsel of despair." You've heard it when I talk about 1,000 years before we are free of dogmatic religion, stuff like that. I would so like to be wrong in that prediction, but I can't be free of my gloomy outlook by adopting fairy tales instead. There's something in your argument that seems like a rational base from which I might be more hopeful, and therefore more constructive. I'm always saying, "So what are we going to do about it," but I can't be one of the doers if I'm paralyzed by fatalism. I'll be working to clarify what is still vague for me.

Thank you very much for sharing your remarkable letter.

Robin,
Good metaphor, swimming upstream. Keep going. There are distinct advantages to being upstream, including not having to worry about who's pissing in it.
You didn't get wishy-washy about organized atheist groups, you see both edges of the sword. Now you've got me interested to see if there are overtly atheist charities. The search is on!

Ted,
Sorry if I sounded like I was implying that you were trying to hide your views on Atran. Not at all. I was just urging you to share them in my annoying little way. Now, like Robin I'm going to curl up around a good computer and enjoy reading your letter. Thanks.

Ted,

Thank you, you put it laymens terms that helped me understand better of what I read last night on The Edge.

You made very good points and I look forward to reading others thoughts and opinions.

Thank you Ted, much appreciated.

Now I am off to read your letter.

Richard-Tammy,

Thank you both for your kind words.

Richard

One thing I have always done and continue to do is ask *why* or *how do you know this* or prove it to me. Or show me.* My mother always told me my attitude would cause me to swim upstream my whole life.

To give that up and become a sheep in the herd would have killed me quicker than the reproaches I have received for asking too many questions.

Tammy

Actually, any psychologists I have ever been aquainted with have never brought religion into any of the discussions. As Richard said their licenses would be in jeopardy.

I agree with you in the statement, that I also don't think it is their responsibility Harris, Dawkins etc to find a replacement.

My thoughts were more directed towards the everyday not so educated community of people like myself. Thinking that perhaps, if we want as atheists to be more understood as being just as decent as the next, serious community service may be in order. Of course we can and do do this on a personal basis, I'm sure. But as a group, unless I am uninformed there is really no global outpouring. Then again, since I have no use for organized religion I suppose organized atheism would *eventually* fall into that category as well. As is in all groups, there are some that become radical and use it as a tool for their own personal goals. Ok, so now I am becoming wishy-washy. I hate when that happens!

One thing I must say to all of you. Coming to this board and reading all of your posts. I know there is some serious reading I need and want to do. I have written down many of the authors and books that you all have mentioned. As soon as the holiday hustle and bustle is over, I will attend to this as I can NOT wait too much longer. But alas, I must.

Thank you all.

And I will try not to step on my tongue too much. One thing I hate is when someone opens their mouth and speaks like they know what their talking about but doesn't have a clue. And that goes for myself as well.

Scott Atran
University of Michigan.

Dear Scott Atran:

Have just read your interaction with Sam Harris on the Edge discussion entitled Beyond Belief and I have to confess I found your contribution hard to believe and difficult to comprehend.
The pursuit of science at its best and whenever it is true to its modus operandi is competitive rather than confrontational. From what I can gather you find Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins to be too confrontational/outspoken but I can only say, as an outsider, that you sure seem to give them a run for their money.

You start out by referring to THE BASIC IRRATIONALITY OF HUMAN LIFE AND SOCIETY – which sounds to me like a counsel of despair. You talk about the “irrationality of romantic love, vengeance, or any sentiment of hope beyond reason.” Sure enough, we humans have non rational aspects to our lives but to lump the things you mention together with indubitably irrational religious beliefs is hardly playing fair. You commend Harris and Dawkins and others like them for “trying to roll back political/fundamentalist movements in the United States and across the world” and describe this attempt as being “important and praiseworthy.” But you come very close to contending that this task is impossible and thus a total waste of time.

You recognize the iniquity, in some Muslim countries, of turning the teaching of evolution into a crime and the inanity of force feeding intelligent design into the heads of boys and girls in American high schools. But, instead of joining forces with Harris and Dawkins by offering helpful suggestions, you come very close to implying that eradicating dogmatic political and/or religious beliefs is impossible. You seem to imply that religion is here to stay – like it or not - and we'd better grow used to this (not necessarily unpalatable in your eyes it would seem) ) fact.

You speak of the basic irrationality of human life and society and fault scientists like H&D for contending that “things ought to be rational and evidence based.” You even say that their views make you feel ashamed to be a scientist and atheist. Since I am an engineer/scientist/mathematician and agnostic this leaves me speechless. Once again you seem to ignore that which is non-rational but not necessarily irrational. I am not at all sure that H&D insist that all things should be rational and evidence based. What they do say loudly and clearly is that rational evidence for the nature of the physical and biological worlds should not be thrown aside without even being examined – and you appear at times to be in tune with them on this issue.

When you go on to suggest that “religious beliefs are not false in the usual sense of failing to meet certain truth conditions” and compare religious beliefs to senseless/incomprehensible statements such as “a colourless green idea has wings” I find myself wondering what on earth is going on in your mind. There are myriads of religious beliefs which are neither illogical nor/incomprehensible but purely and simply baseless. What about Muhammad being taken up to heaven by a winged horse. Or what about Jesus turning water into wine. These things don't sound senseless to me. And when it comes to Muslims or fundamentalist Christians rejecting the occurrence of evolution this is nothing other than a rejection of a scientifically well attested truth. These things are simply dishonest religious beliefs which fail to meet self-evident truth conditions. There is nothing mysterious or incomprehensible about them. They are just living lies.

You speak of “secular monotheism” which is a truly odd pairing of words and I see nothing monotheistic in what H& D say. You write strange sentences such as: “Liberty, compassion and happiness are recurrently won or lost in history in alternation with periods of tyranny, cruelty and suffering. If it were otherwise perhaps religion would fade away, as would poetry and art. But given our evolutionary makeup that counterfactual world may not even be nomologically possible.” I cannot see any nomologically sound reason why the fading away of religion should go hand in hand with the fading away of art, poetry (and music?) Come on. You must be joking. And maybe this alternation between liberty and tyranny would indeed fade away if religion faded away.

I agree totally with Harris that the cruelty and tyranny which pervaded Stalin's Soviet Union, or Mao's China or Pol Pot's Cambodia was the result of dogmatism very little different to religious dogmatism. Their regimes were in fact akin to godless religions. And if you get rid of religion but replace it with atheistic dogmatism this is a case of six of one and half a dozen of another. H&D are advocates of openness not dogmatism and you must surely be aware of this.

You suggest that the subordination of women in Islamic societies “has very little to do with religion per se and much more to do with the kinship structures of Arab society.” And you suggest that the subordination of women arises from the fact that “Arab social structure and cultural identity are built around a patriarchal system that passes rights, obligations and duties exclusively through the fathers blood line.”
My reaction to that is: What are you trying to say? That Islam is not to blame for its treatment of women or that its treatment of women is not to be deplored? Arab culture and Islam are inextricably intertwined and the subordination of women in Muslim societies has everything to do with the core beliefs of Islam as written in the Qur'an and the Hadith. And there is no excuse for any religion slavishly following the norms of the society where it grew up. Many (perhaps most?) societies have been patriarchal and Quakerism grew up in a fairly patriarchal society but very early on its history it gave women a status equal to that of men.

Toward the end of your article you say:

“ If scientists do believe that they are ethically bound to improve the lot of ordinary people, or at least to decrease violence and increase the possibility for happiness as I do, then perhaps the greatest challenge – and one that has been wholly overlooked here -- is 'how do we as scientists advance reason in a inherently unreasonable world'.” This sentence caused me to check my dictionaries to make sure I understood the meaning of the word inherent. And my checking confirmed that it means: an essential, permanent or characteristic attribute. So you are indeed claiming that unreasonableness is a permanent and essential feature of the world – which seems to me, as I have said before, a counsel of despair. Obviously, in a hostage taking situation, it is too late to try an inculcate a love of reason. But that does not mean than nothing can be done or should be done. You speak of actually doing something as a “difficult task” but precisely because it is both a difficult ask and a task in urgent need of being tackled I feel very uncomfortable about you lack of helpful suggestions. Unless you are in agreement that something can be done and ought to be done the whole discussion is simply sterile.

At least in a loose sense H&D are agreed that we should overhaul our school systems and make the findings of science more widely known and the essentials of logic more thoroughly inculcated. Not everyone is cut out to be a scientist but as Harris points out he has yet to hear of a society which has suffered because it members “became too reasonable.”

Your counsel of despair holds through to the bitter end and you close by mocking Weinberg's call for science to save humanity from the “long nightmare of religion.” You end by saying: “ The nightmares but also the dreams will very likely remain a substantial part of what it means to be human, despite any hope or attempt to wish them away.” And if that isn't a case of throwing in the towel then I don't know what is.

Harris is totally correct when he says “The point is not that all religious people are bad; it is not that bad things are done in the name of religion; and it is not that scientists are never bad; or wrong or self-deceived. The point is this: intellectual honesty is better (more enlightened, more useful,less dangerous, more in touch with reality etc.) than dogmatism. The degree to which science is committed to the former and religion to the latter remains one of the most salient and appalling disparities to be found in human discourse.” If you in any way agree with Harris that we should do everything we can to reduce the prevalence of dogmatism and increase the prevalence of intellectual honesty in mankind what do you suggest that we should do to be successful?

Yours truly,

. . Ted Swart . .

Richard Robin et al:

Firstly Robin. No need to clam up and no need to worry about your lack of scientific knowledge. Many of your thoughts are sound and perfectly sensible. Of course the way our suburbs are constructed is sheer madness. Of course there should be multiple clusters of houses surrounding a village green and a community hall. This would go a long way towards substituting for the social/support role which religion now provides. And don't be concerned and worried about being an atheist/agnostic. If you lie loose to it, it can be a very liberating thing. You have probably realized by now that no one in this group will jump down your throat even if you engage in venting to some extent.

Secondly Richard. No I am certainly not trying to hide my views on Atran -- which I freely admit are mostly negative. So, what I am going to do is post a copy of my intitial letter to Atran right here in this discussion group -- even although it is a bit long. My second letter is not yet quite finished and it does deal with Atran's more lucid challenges to Dawkins, Harris, Dennett et al.

Tammy,
You know the situation in your own area, but I'm not sure about the majority of counselors nation-wide being faith-based. It's hard to find reliable statistics on that because the state regulations differ, and because it's all highly confidential. There are a lot of people talking quietly in private rooms, but whether that's psychological counseling or not isn't clear.

In California, the laws and requirements for counselor and psychologist licenses do not apply to rabbis, priests or preachers, etc. "counseling in the performance of their pastoral duties." Pastoral counselors, as they're called here may or may not have degrees in divinity, may or may not have training in psychology, and may or may not have counselor or psychologist licenses. The law pretty much stays out of it, I think to the peril of the public. Misguided counseling can do serious harm.
If they do have state licenses and they want to do pastoral counseling, they must make that abundantly clear to the client before therapy begins. "Regular" counselors may have their own religious views, but unless they have declared their intentions ahead of time, they're supposed to keep it out of the sessions. Sneaking in their own religious agenda is a serious no-no and can lose them their license.

Robin, sorry, but I was just rereading your posts from last night, and you can go manic anytime! Your idea about the psychologist is excellent. In my county, and as I understand it across the U.S., the majority if psychological counselors are faith-based, i.e. christian in their approach. I don't understand how helpful it is to tell people suffering, from whatever, to just think about Jesus and you'll feel better.

Robin-please don't clam up; Richard, thanks for contacting that Caryl Murphy.
Robin, I'm just learning about science, too, and would hate to be the only neophyte still hanging around here. As far as that Atran goes, from what I gathered, he's saying more or less what you said, that people still need religion. Whether it's in the hard-wiring of our brains, or it's some weakness, the jury's still deliberating on that, obviously.It seems like Atran is demanding to know what Sam Harris, or Richard Dawkins, or Daniel Dennet have in mind to replace religion for those who need it. I don't think it's their job to replace it necessarily. Lots of authors are now telling us what has needed to be said for ages;I don't think we can blame Harris, Dennet, Dawkins, Atran or any of them for what comes next.

Robin, everything you said makes perfect sense, so please don't keep it to yourself.

Everybody,
This was in my email this morning:
"Mr. Wade,
Thank you for your very informative note. We're following up on it and will get back in touch with you. Caryle Murphy "

Robin,
Wait, wait. It kind of sounds as if you're going to clam up. Your impression of Atran's stance isn't necessarily "wrong," and regardless of that, I don't think you're over your head at all. Both Atran's and Harris' stuff can be dense, and even even after I make sense of it, some of it doesn't make sense. The issue that you brought up about charity actually hasn't been discussed much at all here, and you articulated it well. Please don't bow out.
As for science, I know just enough to get myself into trouble, so "I don't know" is something I often say. I've learned a lot from people's questions, because there's a point of view in the question that's unique to the questioner. Science "stuff" can be complicated, but the basic position of science is extremely, powerfully simple: It says, "Show me." Show me the evidence, the data, the physical thing to back up your claim. You don't have to be a scientist to think scientifically. Just keep demanding, "Show me." When I'm doing science shows for kids, once in a great while a kid will ask, "How do we know that?" I always stop whatever I'm doing and praise that kid for asking that, the most important question he or she could ever ask. I do my best to answer it; sometimes there's not enough time to do a thorough job, but I at least show him the basic method.
Atran's arguments may be full of holes; Ted's mind is sharp enough to sort that out for us. And Atran may be an antagonistic punk, but I approve of his demanding of Harris and Dawkins and the others, "How do you know that?"

Please keep throwing your two cents in. It's worth more than two cents.

Thank you Richard,

Somehow I knew it was over my head. I shall now bough out gracefully. I really have nothing to add as I don't know *chit* about Science.

I will return to read though as there is no reason not to be able to learn.

Hi Robin,
Thoughtful stuff. About Atran, I wasn't sure about the particulars of his long-winded arguments with Harris, Dawkins et al, but the part I liked in principle was challenging them to be scientific in their assertions about the benefits of science, not to just assert. Just asserting is what theists do.
We're hoping Ted will share his arguments against him after a respectable amount of time of us coaxing....

I agree with you about the social benefits of most religions in regards to the destitute, the displaced and the disturbed. Charity work benefits both those who receive and those who give. It's a complicated thing to sort out. There are arguments that the background belief systems of organized religions actually contribute to the social imbalances and problems in the first place, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to go into that. Here, I imagine Atran would be screaming, "Exactly what?! Exactly what?!" Good thing I'm not trying to make a living on my opinion.
We aren't going to get rid of these things for centuries, and in our current civilization we need them. I don't even have objection to the offering of conversion at the rescue soup kitchens, as long as it's offered rather than required.

What drives me to abject conniption is when the church comes out of the slum where it does the most good, and marches or sneaks into the halls of government, where it does the most harm. Telling the rest of us who to vote for, who we can marry, who controls our bodies, what we can read, what we can research, what we can teach our children, and even how old the frikkin' earth is, is not, I think, what Jesus had in mind. Talk about people who have lost their way. Power is intoxicating and addictive. Evangelicals seeking political power over society are definitely not keeping their minds on charity or the golden rule. They do increasingly outrageous things, and they just want more and more power.

There are government social programs for the poor, as you say. They have their good and bad points. There are also many private helping organizations that are not based on a faith. You're right, there are many examples of atheist or non-theist individuals and communities operating on very high moral and ethical levels. There's plenty of compassion in people without having to please god. I hope your vision of secular rescue missions on every other block comes true. Still, as long as our civilization has big holes through which people fall, we will need all the charity we can get, god-based or human-based.

I'm glad Pam invited you here. Actually there is an overtly atheist charity being started by the evil Richard Dawkins. I'll get the URL later.

Ok, I think I am manic tonight, but I thought of a possible alternative.

We get many atheists together, as many as possible and form our own organization.

We call it *Atheists for All*. It will be a non profit organization and non denominational. Religious as well as non religious can seek out our help for a better way. Now we don't make the religious denounce their religion (then we would be just like them!) We offer counseling, we take donations to help the needy. We could start food banks.

Now that would make a statement! Who could object to that? Maybe people would begin to see we atheists are just as compassionate, giving, moral and ethical as the otherside.

(Boy Pam is gonna be sorry she invited me here)

Ok, going to bed now. I promise my last post.

Ooooops! One more after thought.

People turn to churches.....because 99.9% of the time they will *not be turned away.*

Please tell me, if there is an alternative with that those statistics?

I know I know I should have waited for a response for my last post. But I've been thinking.....dangerous I know but here goes.

As an atheist I say and said above somewhere up there that people can be moral ethical etc without the teachings of religion. And stand by that.

I also believe that people of low self esteem, that have been beaten down, tired and exhausted will at times seek out if not already sought by religion or religious people. And part of what they do (the religious) is to build these peoples self worth up to a point where these people see a better life ahead for them, at least emotionally and sometimes financially as in some churches do help out in areas of food and clothing etc. And of course all of this has to do with the Glory of God and they very possibly had to pay zero $'s to only a small and anonymous amount in the plate that was passed by.

None of that sounds so bad. And realistically where else was this person gonna go? If they had no family or if their family was part of the problem, thats out. Possibly and probably there were no friends that would or could be committed enough to be able to lift this person out of his/hers personal hell.

Its easy for the ones of us that have a good understanding and strength within ourselves not to have to rely on God or church to get us through a rough patch. (Although there are some of us that need to visit a shrink from time to time.)

I think we need to remember there is a need for this type of (religous) commune. I personally don't like the price that has to be paid sometimes with having God shoved down peoples throats. At the same time, unless someone can come up with an alternative, there will always be this need and there will always be a place that can fill this need.

There are some good religious institutions, that will do it because they will and not because they want/need to convert. But I think that they are becoming the exception to the rule.

With that said. My next thought is that if we can get a building on every other street corner that folks can congregate, say, every Saturday and there is a psychologist standing at the podium committed to helping people understand that they can be strong and feel good about themselves just because and that if there is a monetary, clothing or food problem that this can be helped out of the donations that are put in that straw basket one of the members weaved the week before. And perhaps one of the other people can offer a job or give a referral for this person in need.

Some will say there are government programs. But sometimes when a person is so down and out emotionally and financially their minds cannot grasp what possibilities are out there for them. Many times the first place they seek is a church.

If there is no place for religion, there has to be an equivilant. The mind sometimes is just not strong enough to be able to reason out and come to a logical conclusion.

Just my humble thoughts.

Sorry the post is long.

Hi all!

I just read Atron on The Edge. I am curious as to what the problem is that you have with what he has said.

The jist I got from it and I welcome any correction, because perhaps I didn't grasp it well, is the fact that he won't totally denounce religion completely. Meaning that he believes there still might be a place for it in some peoples lives.

I welcome any clarification given, because I want to understand.

Thanks

Oh well.

I'm on Harris' list that told me about this place. Hopefully that's the same list he'll use. Otherwise if you post it here, what harm would it do? The page is about 225 feet long, so what's a couple more?

Richard:
I am afraid that there is no hope of my letter to Atran being published as part of the Edge discussion. Dawkins, Dennett and Harris are all agreed on this. They say the decision of the Edge editor is final and that it would be inappropriate to bug him. They have further indicated that they know the editor agrees with my critique of Atran but wished to close the discussion down -- whihcis his prerogative. However, they would all like to see my letter reach a wider audience and Sam Harris has offered to send it to the large group of interested people on his mailing list.

Okay, I emailed Caryle Murphy about the where is Harris' question problem, and asked about breaking up the thread into pages as well. No idea when or if I'll get a response.

Ted,
The more I think about it, I'd rather see your email published by The Edge or Beyond Belief, because that's more to it's original intention. Reading it here would be only a consolation prize for us. What if five different people from all over the country emailed the editor who turned it down, and said that they'd heard of this terrific letter by Ted Swart that had been declined, and they would really like to read it, because it would enrich the debate?

It's a grass roots movement! Power to the people! Force the corrupt media to do the right thing! Free Willie!

Tammy,
Sounds like the woman would definitely love "The Prophet," while the man might not. He might like Thomas Moore's "Care of the Soul," for a Jungian angle on spirituality which dovetails nicely with most Christian points of view, or Rick Warren's "The Purpose Driven Life," for a more directly Christian perspective.
Then again, the gift certificate might be safer for him. In addition to the possibility of starting a dialogue that you'd rather not get into, those two books are about improving one's life. Sometimes people take offense at the implication that we think they need improving.
I think it's very nice that you care about such disparate kinds of people.

Torrey,
I'll email On Faith's producer, Caryle Murphy listed on the bottom of the main page, and ask. (nicely) I must say that it is cozy in here, except for the long commute to the bottom for some of you. By isolating us from most outside influence they've allowed our relationships to develop to a more intimate level. But since On Faith seems to make changes to access without any announcements or warnings, we could wake up one morning and find the thread has vanished. This again brings up the urgency of finding an alternative clubhouse at another site.
THE JUSTICE LEAGUE OF UNBELIEVERS MUST GO ON!!!
Talk about creating a monster.

Richard; I would be happy to post my email to Atran on on this site since I regard the things I write as part of Lessig's creative commons. However, I am reluctant to do so unless several others would like to see it as well since it is longer than most contributions on this site (2 /12 standard sized pages). It is more or less self-standing and you don't need to actually read Atran's articles to follow the gist of it.

Maybe they are waiting for Sam Harris to post a new comment for people to comment on.
The people I had in mind to give that book to, Richard, are people I think would like it. One is a dear friend of mine, a christian, and is going to be a mom soon; she's leant me books to read and she knows what I think about god. She's a christian because her parents are good people, and they are christians. I would say she's middle-of-the-road because she doesn't take the bible literally and admits that her understanding of everything is evolving. She's just a good, deep person and I think she would like the book.
The other person I thought of is a christian for reasons entirely personal, but I suspect it has to do with how painful it is to feel alone, you know, without the omniscient protection of a god. He is someone of your generation, but no matter how popular "The Prophet" may have been back in the day, he would have totally missed the boat on it, or would think it's "of the devil". You are right, of course; I don't need to create any more monsters!
I've been reading the Narnia books with my kids lately; maybe this thread is like the wardrobe, and it's only by magic that we can find it?(I've saved it in my favorites list)

Me too Richard. Why on earth would they do that?

Hey guys,
Looks like we've been made un-persons.
I've been finding this page by using a bookmark. But when I used my wife's work computer to log on here, I had to google "washington post+on faith" to get to the main page. Then no matter where I looked, I couldn't find this thread. It's not listed in any of the "all past questions" pages. For anyone coming to the On Faith website for the first time, Harris's question doesn't exist. I had to google "washington post on faith+sam harris" to find you guys. One would have to already know that his question, and the resultant brilliant 720 posts exist to find it. Meacham and Quinn seem to have closed the entrance and plastered over it, leaving no trace. No wonder very few new people are joining the conversation. That pisses me off.

Tammy,
If your middle-of-the-road type Christian friends are 50 or older, they've probably read "The Prophet." It became popular when I was in high school (back in Sumeria.) I loved it, and it was short too!
If you give them a book with a spiritual theme, you could be setting a precedent where they reciprocate by giving you books about their beliefs. (ewwww) You're the one who creates monsters, remember?
Perhaps a gift certificate to the local bookstore. That way your underlying message is the value of reading, but they can choose what they like.

By the way, what does "middle-of-the-road type" mean in regard to them?

Tammy, that was a good laugh. Thanks.

Ted, too bad about Atran. I guess even nerds can be punks.
Too bad also that Beyond Belief wouldn't publish your email. I'd like to read it. Sounds like you kicked Atran's dialectical butt.

Thanks, Richard, so that's what I have to look forward to. I already have a few dusty books, but "The God Delusion" isn't going to be one of them. It's so shiny....must read it....

Tammy,
I just blew the dust off a copy of Gibran's "The Broken Wings" that I found on my shelf. Haven't gotten to it yet; we've only had it since 1979. The back cover indicates it's an autobiographical tale of star-crossed lovers in Lebanon that "invokes life's ultimate meaning." I thumbed through it while sitting on the john and I thought, "Wow, this is really beautifully written." So, that one will move up in line in front of the other books we've acquired in the last 27 years. Fortunately from my standpoint, it's only 5/16 of an inch thick.

Ted, that is a shame, because I agree with what you've said and I would be interested to read the email you sent to Sam Harris.
I just didn't understand what Atran was suggesting should be done, you know? He had a lot to say, for sure, but no really constructive suggestions. It also seemed like he was missing Ms. Porco's point on purpose just to make fun of her or something.
Well, thanks again, Ted, for giving us something good to read up on.

Has anyone read anything by Khalil Gibran? I read "The Prophet", and I loved it but I'm wondering how Christians might take it. I remember thinking that if the Bible was written half so well, maybe I'd feel like running around beating people over the head with it, too(so to speak). Well, I have a couple of your more middle-of-the-road type Christians on my Christmas list and was thinking of buying them each a copy, but perhaps a pre-paid phone card would be more appropriate...
Any thoughts?

Richard. You were brave to read through that material by Scott Atran. Much of what he wrote was padding and off track but that's not to say he said nothing of value. But, by and large, he has been behaivntg like the Grinch who stole Christmas -- just being gratuitously nasty and sometimes hopelessly wrong.

The email I sent to Atran ended in being read by Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett and all three of them thought it was so good that they pushed to have a modified version of it published as part of the Edge discussion called Beyond Belief. But the editor turned them and thus me down -- which was a bit of a shame since it would have given my brain some high quality exercise.

Tammy I don't think anyone scared her off. I am going to her place tomorrow for a few weeks. When I talked to her today she was busy wrapping "my" presents!!! Just kidding but her and I are going to have to draw straws for her computer because I decided not to take my laptop.

Ya'll take care. (I have lived in the south to long) Haha

Hi everybody,
I'm Ok. You're so sweet to worry. I'm downtown at my wife's office, using her computer while she's in a meeting. I did a promotion of my shows along with other performers. Just wanted to check in, missed you all.
Ted, I read a lot of that article by Scott Atran. I had to skim over some of it; he's verbose, loquacious and talks a lot too. Some was a bit over my head, and some I thought was pretty nit-picky, but in general I liked the idea of his challenging Harris and Co. to be scientific about their claims of science being preferrable to religion. To practice what they preach, so to speak.(ahem)I'm not sure whether or not his arguments were sound, but the principle of really keeping true tou your scientific views.
Oops, she's back, I'd better go, she'll need the computer.
Later.

Hey Pam, I knew what you meant. I hope we did not scare your sister off!

Correction to above I meant to say did NOT do something awful to him.

Hi all,

Looks like our Richard is "missing in action" today. I hope those nasty people next door did do something awful to him!!!!!

Hi Torrey,
I see Fareed Zakaria on Meet the Press often. I have never gotten a sense as to his personal religious beliefs. I agree he is very smart and I usually pay close attention to his commentary. I will make it a point to listen and see if I can figure that one out!

Hi Torrey-I didn't know that about Fareed Zakaria, either. I've seen him on TV, and he seems very smart-I love when they have him on the Daily Show, but I haven't heard him talk about his own personal religion. He's really good at giving us the current global situation, and he's seems like a person of faith.
All I mean by "person of faith" is someone who's kind, sincere, and not self-serving. Maybe respectful, respectable, and trustworthy should also be added to describe a person of faith.

For Torrey.

I am not at all sure that what you say about Fareed Zakaria is true. If you look him up in Wikipedia the very last sentence in the write-up quotes him as saying "I am not a religious type". And you can actually look at the interview which carries this quotation. So I don't think he has anything other than a Muslim background.

. . Ted . .

Nice to see you're all still here. Have your ears been burning? I've been talking about you all to friends and neighbors and continuing this conversation in the 'real world'. I learned (probably the last to know) that Fareed Zakaria is an Indian Muslim! -- another renewal-of-faith discovery for me! Does anyone know if he is a practising muslim? Now THAT would surprise me.

Tammy, Yes, I am back with barely any brusing. I read your Ann Druyan article. Great one thanks for the information.

Julia, I raised two children with no religious instruction and they are both wonderful, moral, loving individuals. I was given the choice as a child to decide for myself. I passed the ability to choose on to my children.

Richard, I read the post you mentioned earlier. Actually I had read it before. I doubt that anyone today would not think along those lines sometimes. I seldom lose hope but I must say in the last 6 years I have actually felt fear in a way I have never before. If I allowed myself to think about what is going on in the world these days very often I am sure I would feel just as you did in that post.

P.S. I hope Deb got your message. People do seem to get angry next door.

Goodnight all!

Welcome Julia,
I'm really curious about what you mean by the inexplicable, and what your religious relatives said about dealing with it.

Most of us here have had meddling or disapproving relatives. Statements about non-believers having no morals come from ignorance and bigotry. There's actually a large body of literature that refutes that myth. But, as you probably have found, quoting such material bounces off people who work hard at staying ignorant.

Thanks Ted for that link. I had read those posts on that Edge site, and I still don't understand what that Atran has to argue against. I liked what Daniel Dennet had to say about it.
Thanks for reading that article, Richard. It was one of those cool things I found just by looking up Ann Druyan's name on Wikipedia, and it happened to capsulize what I was already thinking.
Hi Julia, I hope you've been reading Ted's posts. It's really validating to learn about families who have already successfully done what we intend to do, which is, as you said, to raise people with morals independently of religion.
Hi Pam, I hope you come back to us unscathed(hardeehar)!

I wanted to thank everyone for their contributions. I have been enjoying reading all of you. I grew up Catholic without any say so in the matter. As I got older (growing up Latin America), I had a real problem with a religion that preached that there was a reward in heaven for poor people and therefore people should be happy with their lot in life. The effect was to maintain the status quo (even if not meant to do so). I found so many inconsistencies in institutionalized religion that I began looking for a way to fulfill my spiritual needs. So needless to say, I have been reading a lot about different practices.

When I read Sam Harris’ book something resonated. He was able to vocalize a lot of my feelings and frustrations with organized religion. I too have to contend with people meddling in my business about raising my children with a religion. People, specially relatives, keeping pointing out at the benefits of it: learning and having morals, being able to deal with the inexplicable, etc. As if you are a non-believer you are devoid of morals. I have tried to explain (in vain of course) how it is possible to raise people with morals independently of religion.

Humans (cross culturally) have devised rituals and stories to deal with the inexplicable. Perhaps is one of those things that are innate. What seems clear is that what have been in placed has caused and continues to cause hatred, violence and intolerance.

Sorry if I have been conspicous by my absence but I have been heavily involved in a lively discussion between Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and others. The most conspicuous and controverial contributor is an anthropologist from the University of Michigan called Scott Atran and he is being what some would call "otherwise". I found Atran's original contribution so bizarre that I wrote a critique of it which I sent to him by email -- with copies to Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. Sam was kind enough to thank me (by email) and spoke of my email to Atran as top quality.

Anyway if any you are interested you can go to the the URL below which Atran kindly sent me. This URL gives Atran's original article, Sam's response, follow up articles by both of them and several other articles as well.

Some of you have suggested we should try to be "nice atheists" and courteous in our dealings with others. Not so Scott Atran. He tears a strip of everyone and thinks he is the only one who knows the score.
WARNING: Sam is -- as always -- on form, but Atran tends to be verbose way beyond anything which we find in our own discussion.
Perhaps just one other bit of advice. You need to read the contributions to the discussion from last to first since that is the order in which they were written.

> Dear Mr. Swart,
>
> My reply to most of your points can be found at:
>
> http://www.edge.org/discourse/bb.html
>
> Best, Scott Atran

Cheers, . . Ted . .

Pam,
I'm still here, at least. The rest are probably out doing something productive. I have to get ready for a show so I can't check in very often. I've been going next door whenever I feel like a good fight. If you want to read the dark outlook I was referring to, go to page 15, Dec.11, 2:56 AM. Then there's a lot of scripture bashing which I find very boring, but near the bottom I had an interesting exchange with an ER doctor named Stephen.

Tammy,
What a wonderful article! And such poignant footnote about Carl. Suddenly I'm a big Ann Druyan fan, and I'd never heard of her before. Thanks!

Hello Jeffrey welcome. Yes, it takes a little time to scroll down this far (or as Rchard suggests just hit the end key) but well worth it. Only the strong survive!

Torrey, Ted, Alain, Tammy, Robin are you out there somewhere in cyberland? Helloooooooooooo

I suppose I will be brave it and visit next door. Wish me luck as it is not a kind place to be.

Wow, so many people to whom I want to respond. I'll have to be brief with each one:
Tammy: Helpful thoughts about atheists and compassion/forgiveness. Thanks. I think Dawkins (and others) blows holes in myths about atheists being unable to be moral, or ethical, or in any way good people.
Tammy again: "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!"
However, as Jefferson is thought to have said, "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance." George the Usurper would love to trash the First Amendment, and he still has 770 days to try.
Jeffrey, welcome and thank you. "Fair and lively" is exactly what we hope for. There were some religious people of various views and personalities posting; some were just dreadful and some were very nice. But we seem to have outlasted them. I think they went to seek greener pastures. Sheep like pastures.

What a very interesting (and long) discussion! There are so many seemingly atheist commentators here. With the fact that this is in an "On Faith" website where nearly every other topic assumes a faith-based readership, I am surprised that this discussion is so lively and fair. In my experinece, religious people tend to react badly when their belief system is questioned, even politely and calmly. Perhaps religious people see it as foolish to try to debate or explain their position here.

Oh, and I am a new, huge fan of Sam Harris!

Okay, I'm sorry, I may do this every time for a while, but my link works! Mainly, I checked because I wanted to reread it; it reminds me of what a lot of you have been saying. She says we need a community of skepticism, and good music!
I know we can all say "amen" to that.

A new monster has been created at my house, and all it took was a laptop! Well, here's a link to an essay I love by Ann Druyan. I hope you guys enjoy it, if you haven't read it before.

By the way, Robin, hello and thanks for gracing our discussion with your perspective!

http://www.csicop.org/si/2003-11/ann-druyan.html

I guess I think we don't have to worry about Inquisitions anymore, that there are always going to be more people who are rational and humane.

Besides, we do have the right laws on the books, don't we?

Tammy,
I'm actually glad you mentioned "The Crucible." Rather than counterproductive, I think it's very pertinent. We need to talk about our fearful thoughts or they will run our lives. Pam touched on one of hers about someone killing people at a meeting. The ones in my head are what brought me to this website. They're so dark that I was asking sideways for permission to bring them up.

I saw the play on stage in the late 1960's and it was depressing as hell, but I knew I had to face it's theme. You probably know that Miller wrote that during the bleak era of McCarthyism, when "witch hunts" were destroying many wonderful people. That was his protest. The very real danger is still there, it's just hunting different kinds of witches now. Gays, Muslims, atheists, the list is long.
We all have either personally experienced or have heard of various levels of persecution. We should call it for what it is and not be embarrassed. We can share our "war stories," but we don't need to get bogged down in that as a morbid futility. We can share our scary fantasies, and can acknowledge that there are some real-world reasons to have them, but we can also help each other to get a wider perspective, and to take action as a response to our fears rather than just hopeless and helpless moping, as I am sometimes prone to.

It doesn't have to be the perpetual topic, but we need to talk about it whenever it comes up for us.

Torrey,

I love New York City and have gone there often in my past life (living in the northeast). I often went by the Dakota (Lennon's home). I have never been there that even after all of these years people do not still leave flowers and light candles in tribute to him. Things such as this (including everytime I have visited the WTC) it restores my faith in humanity. There are wonderful caring people out there that still ban together for anniversary's or just because they need to do it for themselves and pay tribute to all kinds of things. I have seen this so often. I think that THOSE are the people that would accept us for whatever we are. We just need to find them.

Richard,
What a wonderful career and you are exactly right on. If each of us just touch ONE person in our lifetime and help that person to be a scientist or in my case get sober we are miracle workers. All of us have it within us to plant those seeds. I have been helped more than all of you know just by being accepted on this webpage. And as far as your rants, I can't speak for anyone else, but feel free as far as I am concerned to vent it here where you are safe with us. I owe much to many that I can't repay to them personally but I can repay it by listening to you or anyone else that needs to babble on.

I have and are in therapy for years and years. I have been to hell and back many times but what has kept me going even when I am in that deep dark place is the memories of all of the wonderful things and people that have crossed my path.

Thank you for your honesty and take care!!

My friends,
Your positive outlook is what I crave, what I need. My outlook is often not so bright. Sometimes pessimistic people want to bring others in a group down to their level of gloom. Maybe they want to be the smart one, or the right one. That’s not my motive; I really want to be wrong about the way I see things, but I’m afraid that sharing it for discussion will have that depressing effect. So I clam up. (Hard to believe, I know.) This forum is therapy for me. I’ve given and taken psychotherapy for years, but this is what I need now. I don’t want to bum-out my “therapists” just for the indulgence of expressing myself. I hope that your positive attitudes will rub off on me. Some of your optimistic visions seem strongly rooted, others seem delicate. I don’t want to be a bull in a china shop, so I go to other discussions where the volume and rancor is high, and I vent there.

I give science presentations to children at libraries and schools. Sort of a traveling Mr. Science. The three shows are about dinosaurs, volcanoes and astronomy. I love interacting with the kids. Their natural optimism, curiosity and awe buoy me up. I grin when these little buddhas walk into the room. My motive is very conscious and deliberate. I’m hoping to have a long term effect. If a couple of kids in the room are turned toward a more rational way of seeing the world, if one out of a thousand decides to become a scientist, then long after I’m gone, I’m hoping humanity might have a slightly better chance to survive. It’s all I can do. I plant seeds everywhere I go, and I will never know if they sprouted.

I know I talk about myself a whole lot. Almost every sentence has the word “I” in it. Maybe I’m self-centered, or maybe it’s the only subject I can be both honest and accurate about. I can’t talk about you, only ask about you, which I should do more.

Thanks for letting me babble.

I hope I had not offended anyone by the statement
*like a newly recovered person of whatever*.

Been there done that.

A doctor once told me that newly recovered people tend to go overboard with wanting to share their newfound recovery with others in the way of recruitment, until they settle in and chill out a bit.

So, I meant no disrespect.

I just reread my post and there is a part up there that doesn't make sense in the way the sentences are in order. I at one point copied cut and pasted, as I needed to. Only to see that I messed up and did not put it in the right order.

Sorry.

They need to put in a delete and start over button, for the forgetting to preview and redo if necessary people. *sigh*

Richard,

First, about reading fast. It was only because I found this thread fascinating. And not really sure if it was the middle but close.

Second,

What I meant with atheist forgive just because we can. I'm not so sure I worded that very well, but it was late. Also, I know this was mentioned above somewhere else. If atheists are unethical, immoral and just plain mean, well, in my opinion they eventually get whats coming to them. Was that atheists can be moral, ethical, forgiving, sypathetic, compassionate, giving, lawabiding, etc because we want to be, not because we fear retribution at the end from a judgemental fear instilling God. They lose any respectability, integrity, trustworthiness, etc from those of the opposite choice of citizenship. You know that saying what goes around, comes around. I subscribe to that thought. I also do subscribe to..We may never see their upcomings but I have to think it happens. Anywho, I just move on and seek out the people that have the better qualities for my aquaintances. Ok, then what happens to the bad people? Well, if they are really bad they go to jail. If they are extra bad they get executed.

Seems to me that there is nothing worse than losing your freedom (jail) or losing your life much earlier than need be. (execution)

Thanks Tammy I tried the link and yes it does work. I will watch it soon.

The wonderful world of computers!

It worked, it worked! I tried my own link & it worked! Sorry, but this is quite an accomplishment for me.

Ted, I love Salman Rushdie! Thanks for including it. I loved the sing-a-long,by the way.
I may watch more TV than some of you, but have you seen the conversation Bill Moyers had on PBS with Rushdie, this fall? You can watch the On Faith and Reason series of Moyers interviews on the internet. If I can get a hold of my husband long enough, he can maybe help me set up a link. That would be cool.
Torrey's right; we're so lucky to be living now with all this renewed interest in the nature of reality going on. I'm sorry I mentioned "The Crucible" the other night, it was just unproductive to the discussion, but for some reason I can't get my mind off witch-hunts, and now Pam and Torrey have mentioned persecution. I'm thinkin' maybe we've all seen the worst of it, because we all seem to practice the "don't ask, don't tell" policy.
Well, my husband took pity on me, and has provided my first link to share. Hope it works.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandreason/watch_rushdie.html?playertype=windowsmedia;speed=hi;mediatype=video;media=/wnet/moyers/faithandreason/rushdiefull-lo.rm,/wnet/moyers/faithandreason/rushdiefull-hi.rm,/wnet/moyers/faithandreason/rushdiefull-lo.wmv,/wnet/moyers/faithandreason/rushdiefull-hi.wmv;helptemplate=/moyers/watch_help.html;basepath=/moyers/faithandreason/watch_rushdie.html

GOOD MORNING ALL

First, Richard I am not trying to get out of work. I belong to a group of people that speak of honesty and I was just being honest. LOL LOL

Second, Ted thanks for that information. I am a slow reader and get overwhelmed very easy so I am not going to add that book to my list at the moment but will certainly keep it on the list.

Third, I thought we needed some new blood so I decided to twist my sisters arm into joining us. Now she is the shy one of the two of us so I would appreciate you not scaring her away!!

Now back to my song. Can we just IMAGINE living in a world described in this tune?? If I could "cherry pick" religion I would probably pick the one that believes in reincarnation. That way hopefully I would come back to "this" world when it is as described in the song. Except it may never happen. Sad, I find it sad that we can't find a way to live together. Except everyone for who and what they are and just go about living.

When it comes to religion I do believe everyone has the right to believe in whatever they feel they need to believe to get through life. If one needs to believe in GOD and Jesus so be it. Just don't try and tell me what to believe in. Please go about your business and let me find out on my own what needs I have to get through this life.

Can't we have our own little "meeting" where we can discuss to the newcomers how and why we believe what we do and not be in fear of someone standing outside with a gun and deciding to take all of us out afterwards. Or worse burning the building down while we are still in it.

OK I have had my long rant for this morning.

Later

Torrey,
You're wondering why this upsurge in talk, books etc. about religion and non-religion and all that, when it used to be such a non-topic.
Well, imagine a bus full of people enjoying a drive through the mountains. In every seat there's a different conversation. Some are about the scenery, some about their kids, or books they've read, or politics, or their recent operation, and a few are asleep. Suddenly it becomes apparent that the bus is rapidly heading for the edge of a cliff. All the conversations switch to a new subject.

Robin,
Welcome to the bottom of the well! It's flattering that you would read so much of our gab, and impressive that you can read that fast. Pam gets yet another check on the cool chart for inviting you here.
You say a lot in a small space. Every paragraph about yourself has something I want to learn more about. I won't overwhelm you with all my questions; I'll just pick one that caught my eye.
You said that atheists have forgiveness in their hearts as well, just because they can. That's a really interesting statement. Could you say more of what you mean?

Would anyone else like to share?

Raises hand, stands up.

Hi,

My name is Robin and I am an atheist.

Welcome, Robin!

*waves to everyone*

My sister Pam invited me to the meeting of the minds. *wink*

First I must say I have been reading about half way down to the end here to familiarize myself with the postings and posters or trying to, my short term memory is not so good these days so please forgive if I screw up. Thats one of the good things about atheists they have forgiveness in their hearts as well. Just because they can, but I digress.

Tammy

I live in the Alabama part of PA. LOL

Richard

Your hysterical!

Ted

Very insightful. Not to mention strong for maintaining your sanity in the bible belt.

First I want to comment about the problem scrolling down. I had the same problem and I have a relatively new computer. Soooo.... I did use my end button Richard, it took me to the bottom but then I had to scroll back up to keep on reading, so that was self defeating for me as a newcomber and an obvious blonde under brown hair. *sigh*

One example of a double dose of bigotry or ignorance that I have incurred. There is a muslim man I know at work. He purchases oils for me (they smell so good) from a muslim vendor at a downtown market. Shortly after 9-11, another co-worker exclaimed I was helping to fund the terrorists with my purchases. *shakes my head*

As far as feeling misunderstood or ignorance towards my atheism, I can't speak of much. Only
because basically I have a policy of ...if they don't ask I don't share. And no one has ever asked.

Richard your example of the Alaska trip is a good one for not only no tolerance for infidels but as a possible Christian without a church!!!

Most recently though, the topic of religion came up at work with one person and I made the comment that I was not a believer. This person at the moment assumed it his responsibility to make me understand that if I did not get born again, yada yada yada, I will not see the gates of heaven. I guess you can liken it to a newly recovered person of whatever who wants to share the good news on how to have a better life. So, I try to hold a zemblence of patience.

Which leads me to the basic problem that I have with religious folk. They take it upon themselves, I am sure out of the goodness of their hearts, to want to save people from themselves. Personally, that offends me. As if I am not intelligent enough to know what is best for me. I am 50 years young, and I think, no I know, by now, what the best choice is for me in this area. I do not have a problem discussing it but the problem lies in the recruitment. I have dappled in religion. And when I say dapple that is what I mean. You know, the slight introduction as a child kind of dapple. But at 16, it started to become apparent to me that I did not hold much stock in this all loving, all forgiving entity. Not to mention no show miricle worker when needed the most. Then again in my late 20's early 30's decided to stick my toe into it again, only to pull it out and run like hades.

At the same time I still maintain to be a pro-choice person. And only ask that that respect be given back. But knowing that it is mostly too much to ask for, I usually decline in offering up my personal preference in the area of God and religion.

I have surfed this site to a considerable degree and have found, though, to end up rather disgusted about some of the other atheists attitudes on being just as disrespectful towards others of religious affiliations as is the religious towards the unreligious. It left me feeling very sad inside. I guess I had thought or hoped that atheists were somewhat above that sort of in your face tactics. I guess I forgot that atheists are humans too. I would like to think I was just naive and not arrogant in my assumption.

Ok, I am now getting the feeling that my post is probably getting to long. So...I shall end it by saying I have enjoyed all of your posts, learned from them and received validation from them as well. It has been difficult to some degree to not be able to converse with anyone over the years that was of like mind. So, thank you and thank you for letting me share.

***And Pammy....thank you for steering me to this forum and to this thread****

I love sing-a-longs. Thanks Pam. That's my favorite song of all time.
Driving home from Salt Lake today (in the snow!) and listening to another episode of TTBOOK's science & religion series (can't remember the exact name), I got to thinking about the seemingly sudden proliferation of books, interviews, TV & radio programs, documentaries, websites like this etc etc. all discussing the formerly taboo subject of religion vs. non-religion. What is happening? Where is it taking us? Should we expect another Spanish Inquisition? I have to admit that I'm loving it -- can't seem to get enough.

Pam,
Waddaya mean, you're not as intelligent as me or as wise as Ted? Are you trying to get out of work or something?
I love that song so much. I can never get through it without crying. It was the anthem of my generation. Yes Pam, you can imagine, and I like what you reveal of it.
Ted,
Dammit, here's another "must" for my reading list. Those passages are wonderful. Is there a Reader's Digest version?

Pam:
Given your choice of lyric I thought you – and all the others -- might like to know about an interesting addendum to what John Lennon wrote.
Salmon Rushdie (of Satanic Verses fame) has a book of essays called: “Step Across This Line”. And one of the essays in the book is entitled “Imagine There's no Heaven”; with the subtitle: “A letter to the six billionth world citizen”. It was a letter written under the auspices of the United nations as part of an anthology of letters of this kind.

Rushdie writes with marvellous lucidity and says:

“Oddly – as if six billion of us weren't enough to be going on with – it will almost certainly be suggested to you that the answer to the question of origins requires you you to believe in the existence of a a further, invisible, ineffable Being 'somewhere up there,' an omnipotent creator whom we poor limited creatures are unable to even perceive, much less to understand. That is, you will be strongly encouraged to imagine a heaven, with at least one god in residence. This sky-god, it is said, made the universe by churning its matter in a giant pot, Or, he danced. Or, he vomited Creation out of himself. Or he simply called it into being, and lo, it Was. . . . .”.

Rushdie goes onto say:

“As human knowledge has grown, it has become plain that every religious story ever told about how we got here is quite simply wrong. This, finally, is what all religions have in common . They didn't get it right”.

POWERFUL STUFF

“There was no celestial churning, no makers dance, no vomiting of galaxies, no snake or kangaroo ancestors, no Valhalla, no Olympus, no six-day conjuring trick followed by a day of rest. Wrong, wrong, wrong. But here's something genuinely odd. The wrongness of the sacred tales hasn't lessened the zeal of the devout in the least. If anything the sheer out-of-step zaniness of religion leads the religious to insist ever more stridently on the importance of blind faith”.

Rushdie ends his essay by saying;

“Imagine there's no heaven, my dear Six Billionth, and at once the sky is the limit.”

Sorry for the length but I though it was worth sharing. . . Ted . .

Hello To All
This is my contribution to the music selections by Richard and Ted.

John Lennon - IMAGINE

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Richard I am not as intelligent as you are and Ted I certainly wish I had your wisdom. However, I can IMAGINE

Terry,
Your attitude is so healthy. It sounds like you are willing to be always curious, and not settle for the comfort of certainty. I'm glad you're still around so you could remind me to do that.

Pam,
You didn't make me cry. (sniff) You usually make me laugh with recognition or surprise. I went next door to the "common ground" site and counter-punched a couple of pompous buffoons, and I felt much better.
Tammy,
Thanks for your comfort. That's a very interesting thought about the "I believe in God" vs "I'm a Christian" thing. It makes me wonder if I'm getting caught up in my own ID badge, rather than just exploring what's true for me. I'll have to think about that.
Ted,
Thanks also for your comfort. You always manage to see the pony instead of the poop.

Looks like I'm breaking my promise of keeping my posts to one inch. Then again, there's less than an inch to each of you, so it's ok.

Terry:

I think the common thread that is shared by all of us who are left in this discussion is exactly what you ssy:

"Now does all of this make me religious? No-not in the sense of believing in any of the doctrines and creeds of an organized or formal religion."

Most of us -- unlike you -- have not had a near dear death experience and cannot speak from first hand experience in this regard. But at least some of us (myself for one) have had mystical experiences and would join you in saying that there is a "spiritual dimension to life and existence".

I do not believe in the doctrines and creeds of any of the formal religions and in that sense I do not have any faith in such unsubstantiated beliefs. So I suppose I am neither religious nor a person of faith. But I am sure no one here is going to quibble over this. The important thing is that we are united in having moved beyond formal religion.

Last year I has what some people call a near death experience. That is, during a heart attack I ( my essence or soul or whatever you want to call it)travelled to a different place. My memory of this is as vivid today as when it occurred. I now believe and know that there is another dimension or plane of existence. Modern science has of course uncovered no such dimension although there are countless reports by countless people of the existence of one. I attribute this to the primitive nature of current scientific methods and its restrictive view of the nature of mind and being. Now does all of this make me religious? No-not in the sense of believing in any of the doctrines and creeds of an organized or formal religion. What is does though is to bring into sharp focus for me the spiritual dimension to life and existence. It makes me a spirtual seeker and in that quest i am open to all ideas that may guide me toward meaning. Yes open still to science and its uncovering of truths buried in the world around and in us. And yes open to the thoughts that flow from various spiritual frameworks and experiences.Do I embody the "end of faith"? Am I "religious"? The answer is no to both statements.

All you hard work by no means wasted Richard. Good to know that the Quaker idea (Quakerism goes back to the 1650s)has taken root more widely than most of us realized. So we don't have to wait 1000 years or even 100 years as you suggest. I agree that Prager is the one to blame for causing you -- and the rest us us I might add -- to be misled. . . Ted . .

Richard, thanks for putting that conversation on here, as I missed it on the other page.

Richard, homework is never done for nothing! That Prager is the one who should be embarrassed, but I suspect he's not. Look at the attention he's gotten from being misinformed. I wish Ted's idea about swearing on a child's head would work, but unfortunately, lots of people actually hold books in higher esteem than their own kids.
I'm sorry but my head's still on some pretty morbid thoughts.
Pam, I remember watching a shuttle launch from Orlando years ago-it looked so cool, like a green comet as I remember it. I was a kid in the 80's, by the way, so I really am here mainly to learn. Now that you've mentioned it, I can't recall ever hearing anyone say "I believe in God." They say things like, "I'm a Christian", which makes me think religion is more of an ID badge than a set of beliefs for most people.

Well, I have a life that won't wait, but guess what-I'm always in church. Wasn't it Thomas Paine who wrote "My own church is my own mind"?

So sorry I made you cry Richard. I did know that the Constitution says a person is not required to swear on "any" text but again my lack of communication failed you as I did not go back to that topic again. Yes, and thank god (oops) for the founding fathers for that. However, no one must have told Prager before he decided to go one his little rant. Actually, I don't think Constitution still works these days. That is a topic for another page so I will stop here.

Ted, I love your shower story. I can just imagine the look on your wife's face. She probably wanted to hid under the closest rock!!

Richard I could of used your telescope last night. I watched the shuttle leave this earth from my front yard. It was beautiful. First, night launch in 4 years. Rumor has it that they are in search of GOD on this trip. What do you think their chances are of finding one?????

Now, one last comment on The God Delusion. I must be very nieve because I never realized the danger of one admitting to being an atheist. Dawkins opened my eyes. In thinking about it later I do realize that I have never heard anyone openly admit to being an atheist/agnostic. Am I growing up before your eyes :-).

I imagine ya'll are not in church right now but I am going to leave you and get my political fix for the week.

Later

I worked for hours and hours on all that pointless eloquence to give us all something interesting and important to talk about. I'm so tooth grindin' acid dumpin' keyboard poundin' frustrated and embarrassed right now... What about the rest of it? Is it all just futility, futility, brilliant arguments for and against god, religion, on and on, but the arguing itself is stupid and irrelevant?? I've learned so much, found five amazing disembodied minds whom I now cherish, and all I want to do do right now is cry. Don't worry about my mental health, I'm just pissed.
I'm going to have the rest of my tantrum offline. I'll be back after some sleep. I PROMISE my posts will be no longer than one inch.

Guess what, gang!
After all that, it's a tempest in a frikin' teapot.
I just read that no Congressman has ever been sworn into office using a Bible or any other book. They swear in as a group on the floor of the House. Just their right arms raised. WHY THE FRIKKIN' NIT-WITTIN' DUNG SLINGIN' FLATU-BLAST DIDN'T SOMEBODY TELL US??

I feel like Ruth Buzzi saying, "Oh............Never mind."

Maybe the House of Representatives is closer to Ted's idea than we thought.

Okay, I’ve done my homework. Here is the Prager/Ellison controversy that Pam brought up in the “common ground” discussion next door. I’ve cut out the confusion and misunderstanding stuff, and added some explanation.
I’m sorry this is a very long post, but I think it’s worth going over.

Dennis Prager is a radio show host. He wrote an article dated Nov. 28 which I found posted on townhall.com. Pam had copied and pasted some excerpts that capture the gist of his argument. These are the words of Dennis Prager:

“Keith Ellison, D-Minn., the first Muslim elected to the United States Congress, has announced that he will not take his oath of office on the Bible, but on the bible of Islam, the Koran.
He should not be allowed to do so -- not because of any American hostility to the Koran, but because the act undermines American civilization...
... Devotees of multiculturalism and political correctness who do not see how damaging to the fabric of American civilization it is to allow Ellison to choose his own book need only imagine a racist elected to Congress. Would they allow him to choose Hitler's "Mein Kampf," the Nazis' bible, for his oath? And if not, why not? On what grounds will those defending Ellison's right to choose his favorite book deny that same right to a racist who is elected to public office? “

The rest of the article is more demagoguery, a We’ve-got-trouble-in-River City crock about how “multiculturalism” is going to bring about the “Islamicization of America.” Apparently, Mr. Prager believes in freedom of religion, just as long as it's his religion.

Firstly, I think his arguments are absurd and manipulative. Several times in the article he uses the extreme example ploy, (a racist wanting to use Mein Kampf etc.) which is so unlikely it's not worth considering. If people did elect such a person, then DeMaistre was right when he said, "Every country has the government it deserves." Actually we have had several nasty racist types sworn in on the Bible, so what good did that do?
The whole thing about undermining American civilization is over the top. Doctors still say "I swear by Apollo" when they take the Hippocratic oath. That hasn't damaged American civilization or the medical profession and people don't refuse to see a doctor because he's a pagan. Using a bible to swear is a tradition, not constitutional law. I hope it never becomes law, because then we will all have far less freedom.

In another part of his article that Pam didn’t post Prager argues that Jewish and secular elected officials have been wiling to swear on the Bible. The simple answer to that is, “So what? That was their choice, and that’s the whole point, THEY HAD A CHOICE."

The placing of one's hand on the Bible is a gesture indicating that the oath taker means what he says. I would be more confident that Ellison will carry out his duties faithfully if he swears on what HE cherishes rather than what someone else cherishes. Maybe someday an agnostic or atheist will be elected to Congress, and he or she will place a hand on a book of law, or better yet on the head of their child. If I am convinced that their hand is on the thing they most cherish, I will feel more assured they mean what they say.
I am not just spouting knee-jerk PC platitudes. That stuff is often nauseating. I'm saying we must have the courage of our convictions as Americans. Are we for freedom of thought and speech? Then we must protect the thought and speech we don't agree with. The First Amendment forbids Congress from establishing or limiting any religion. That's the sacred document that I cherish. It has taken a terrible beating lately, from people who want to "protect" us from terrorism, or what they say is the undermining of American civilization. I don't subscribe to any religious crap, but I back Ellision's choice because that means that I still have a choice.

Nobody else made any comment on this issue except Ted Swart:

To Beachwoman and Richard Wade:
This business of swearing on the Bible or the Qur'an as the case may be is not very defensible either way. Long long ago the Quakers earned the right (not only on their behalf but on anyone's behalf)to not swear on anything. Their argument was and is that if they were forced to swear an oath of any kind on any religious book or whatever this was tantamount to admitting that they were liars and cheats.
It was common practice in South Africa, where I came from, to have to swear on the Bible when giving testimony in court. I always refused and invoked my right to make a solemn affirmation instead - a request which was always honored. And, when becoming a Canadian citizen, as I have done, one can do the same.
I think the sooner this practice of swearing an oath on the Bible is stopped the better. RW's interesting suggestion of putting your hand on a child's head would sure be way preferable! Substituting the Bible with the Qur'an is six of one and half a dozen of another as far a I am concerned -- bad eggs in both cases.

Finally I replied,
On the issue of Ellison and his Koran, I agree with Ted Swart that neither book is defensible for many reasons. They're both ludicrous. But the only way to stop the use of any particular book would be to legislate against it. That would be an extremely bad mistake that would backfire for everyone. I've been a witness in court a few times, and have gone through the Bible ritual. It felt odd and insincere because I'm self-bound by my own ethics to be truthful. There's no magic in any old book that makes me or anyone else be honest. Plenty of lying slugs place their hands on sacred texts. If Ellison turns out to be a lying slug, it will be because of his lack of character, not because his hand was on one book or another.

Later Pam began to clarify that she thinks no one should have to swear to anything on the Bible, and that’s where the confusion about who’s opinion was what began.

So after all that, I’ll sum up my own opinions:
1. Prager uses the phrase, “if he’s allowed to do that,” over and over. I don’t see how Ellison can be stopped. Who’s going to allow or disallow him? The people of his district knew he’s a Muslim and they elected him. That by itself is remarkable, given the hysteria in this country. Maybe we should respect their decision.

2. My points are directed to the short term, the next 100 years or so. Ted’s points are for after that. If Keith Ellison has his choice, then we all have our choice. If he is forced to do it one way, then nobody will have a choice, it will be a requirement. If we forbid all books, that’s the same lack of freedom as requiring only one book.

3. To get to Ted’s vision of being free of all these “magic books,” we can’t force yes or no on any of these rituals. We have to patiently wait out the long adolescence of mankind, until we just lose interest. I think that will be at least 100 and as much as 1,000 years.

Well now Mr anonymous Richard Wade. You ask why my wife was embarrassed. I think it was because she and she alone knew it was me singing and the other women in the change room suggested I must be a bit drunk -- which was way off the mark unless they meant drunk with joie de vivre.

For the rest, I think that not only are you all an interesting collection of individuals but a talented bunch as well. Home schooling, artistic bent, telescopes and what have you. Yes. It is good to go over the edge at times and Richard and I and all of you are allowed to do so as necessary. Which reminds me that:

God is sometimes not quite with it.

Oops, that last post was mine.

Ted,
I forgot to ask if your wife was embarrassed just by the fact that people were hearing you sing, or if it was the particular song you sang.
I'm a bathroom baritone too. Once I had to apologize to some folks because they overheard me singing one of several sea shanties that my dad had taught me.

Ted,
Don't you think about food around Christmas?
But that's not why I wrote that. After my wisecrack about food to Alain, the altered first line just popped into my head. The Muse spoke to me and I said, "Yes Ma'am." I wasn't making fun of Stevens' wonderful song. It could have been any song. Actually, I love that song. Thank you for posting the verses. There's nothing in it that I disagree with. I wish that we all could live by those ideas. When it first came out, the Vietnam war was at its darkest, and I was facing the possibility of being drafted. I grabbed onto "the world's gonna find a way," and I've been hoping ever since.

Tammy and Pam,
I'm fine. Nothing dark on my mind. I've been over the edge for most of my life. Interesting perspective from out there. The saddest periods of my life have been when I came back. I'm an artist. maybe that single word explains a lot. I really think that the only difference between creativity and madness is how other people react. Say a person sees and responds to the world differently than usual. If other people are delighted by that difference they call him "creative." If the difference frightens people, they say he's nuts. But it's all about the reaction of other people.
Ted is fine too. He's very cool. The two of you, with your fearless curiosity are only driving all of us over the edge of our tired old perspectives. Keep it up. I really respect and admire the two of you, and all of you. I haven't had this much fun and excitement for a very long time.
If I ever get to be just too much, please say so. I'll take no offense; I'll only be grateful for the frankness of caring friends.

Pam, we are graciously accepting their wisdom, experience, and unique perspectives.

As for who's losin' it, I'm no judge. I was watching a movie version of "The Crucible".
I really do need to get my mind on something else.

Ted, Now that I think about it I think you may have lost it also.

Tammy what are we doing to these guys?????

Personally I think Richard has totally lost it. Come back come back from where ever you are!!!

Hey all, do you think we have driven him off the edge or what?????

I don't know, Ted, I kind of like Richard's version.
It seems like you have something on your mind, though, Richard. I hope this evening finds you well.

Tut tut Richard. It does seem to fit the tune. But all this talk of food with Christmas coming up is a bit much!

As for the real version (see below) all RS's talk about Jesus and God obviously needed censoring by a non-believer like yourself. bur replacing Jesus and God with food -- come now!

All the same when it comes to bursting out in song I am all for it. My wife and I go to the gym together and -- for some strange reason the ducting carries the men's voices right into the women's change room. So, when I burst into song in the shower one day, my wife reported that she was highly embarrassed when the women all heard my singing loud and clear.

* * * * * *
Everything Is Beautiful
Ray Stevens
- written by Ray Stevens

Jesus loves the little children, all the little children of the world
Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world

Everything is beautiful in its' own way
Like a starry summer night or a snow covered winter's day
Everybody's beautiful in their own way
Under God's heaven, the world's gonna find a way

There is none so blind as he who will not see
We must not close our minds, we must let our thought be free
For every hour that passes by, you know the world gets a little bit older
It's time to realize that beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder

Everything is beautiful in its' own way
Like a starry summer night or a snow covered winter's day
Ah, sing it children
Everybody's beautiful in their own way
Under God's heaven, the world's gonna find a way

We shouldn't care about the length of his hair or the color of his skin
Don't worry about what shows from without but the love that lives within
We're gonna get it all together now and everything gonna work out fine
Just take a little time to look on the good side my friend
And straighten it out in your mind

Everything is beautiful in its' own way
Like a starry summer night or a snow covered winter's day
Everybody's beautiful in their own way
Under God's heaven, the world's gonna find a way

It’s time to break into song!!
All together now, to the tune of Ray Stevens’ 1970 hit, “Everything is Beautiful”….

Everything is edible, in its own way.
Everything is having something else on the menu today.
Even little microbes snack, when in the mood.
People think they’re at the top, but they’re just bacteria food.

Everything is edible, so go have lunch.
The sound heard around the world is the sound of “Crunch!”
Whether you have caviar or devil an egg,
The molecules in that hors d’oeuvre were once in a caveman’s leg.

Killing is the way of things. It’s like a bad dream.
Vegetarians are folks who can’t hear a carrot scream.
Everything is edible in its own way.
If you don’t eat the rest of us, then you’ll be tomorrow’s entrée.

Yes, Alain,

In the beginning God created food. And we are food.

Ted,
I am with you with freedom coming easier with the absence of dogma.
I found this gem in a novel from Tom Robbins:
"Poorer of some hopes but freer of some illusions."

Thank you Pam:

I don't know if I am more or less kind than average. What I do know is that I have learnt a huge amount from my wife (given 48 years of marriage so far).
Like your father I am or was (given that I am retired) an engineer/scientist/mathematician. And although I was brought up in the Anglican church my parents always gave me enough rope to hang myself -- for which I am eternally grateful. My father was an incredibly honest man and even had a club with some friends which focused on ethical an moral excellence. It was not religious in any way -- just simply focused on being top quality people. I still have my dad's diaries about the club and they are very challenging.

Thanks Ted I will remember your kindness.

My father was an engineer with Texaco Oil Corp so we moved often around the world and around the USA (well the northeast). It was difficult for them to insist that we go to Sunday School or Church. I always felt some shame about that as a teenager because all of my friends had some kind of religious teaching. So I would just go with them to whatever church they attended. By doing that I learned a little about many different beliefs. None of those really hit me as something I wanted to be involved with. As a teenager my neighbors were either Catholic or Jewish.

I am grateful today that I was not forced to practice any formal religion. It has been a long interesting journey and here I am.

Hey Pam. You ask as many questions as you like. None of us have all the answers but we sure feel comfortable in an open discussion.

We have clearly demonstrated to Sally Quinn that it is perfectly possible to have a conversation about faith or anything else so long as you are not dogmatic.

The strange thing is that true freedom comes when you break loose from dogma whereas those enslaved by dogma think -- erroneously -- that there particular dogmas are the only way to freedom or salvation or whatever they like to call it.

It is always easy to see that the other person's dogmas are simply a case of fabrication. Most non Mormons see the Mormon branch of the Christian religions as nothing other than a fabrication. And, if you ever bother to read the history of Muhammad and Islam, the amount of fabrication is instantly visible. The only problem comes in using the same set of logical antennae when looking at ones own religious faith -- if we happen to be brought up in one (which is true for most of mankind).

Let me add to my list of characteristics of God.

God has to be at least as logical as we are when we are functioning properly.

Torrey
Count me in, next spring , when I start my Hiking campaign in the beautiful Utah Parks. Actually, I visited Capitol Reef National Park, back in May. I also had a great diner at the Cafe Diablo. I do not know if God created food, but I can guarantee you that I enjoy good food, in moderation, mind you.
And this is my point. I see too many people missing the great opportunities of this life because of limiting dogmas (I will go to hell, just because I love Espressos!), endless search for the Holy Grail (Does God exist, which religion is best, etc..) or even anticipating an hypothetical after-life.
Let's enjoy this life, I say ! (I sound like a preacher, all of the sudden !!!)
Looking forward to seeing you next year, "Torrey".

TAMMY
I live 40 minutes from Orlando. A small beach town and I love it here. As a child I lived in Miami off and on as my grandparents had moved from the north and settled in until they were forced by so many changes in that area to move to the Carolinas. I have always loved Florida and promised myself when I retired I would relocate here. That was of course hundreds of years ago. I am not sorry. I have the beach in my blood and find so much peace here. My daughter lives in Colorado and she just couldn't understand why I would not move there with her. Colorado is beautiful, however, it is nice for a "short" visit but this is home for me.

Glad to hear you had the same impression as I did with the comments on the other page.

You are correct it is safe here!

Pam, you and I were posting at the same time, so I wasn't even responding to your post. I read those essays by Quinn & Meachum, and the comments, and that was enough to send me running back over here, scrolling all the way down, and nobody over here is scaring me.
I love FLA, by the way. My grandma's sister lived in Orlando and I got to spend lots of summers there as a kid.

Like Ted, I'm blessed with four. I have a long way to go, though; my oldest will be 7 in january. I hate to admit this, but my oldest was dedicated by the same pastor who married us, but we've grown up so much since then. We no longer placate the relatives, and I'm pretty sure they think we're good parents anyways.
Just like with Ted's family, the kids themselves are the results, so it'll be years before judgement can be passed on me as a mom. It's really funny-we are homeschooling(just 2 are school-age)Lots of people are homeschooling for religious reasons, and that's perfectly acceptable to everyone. When I tell people we're doing it for academic reasons it's somehow confusing to them.
I liked Torrey's redneck nightmare-it reminds me of people around here. I've recently heard, through the grapevine, that I'm opening myself up to demon possesion because I practice yoga. The funny thing is that a friend of mine who is christian and very active in her church has been told the same thing to her face!
Well, Ted really set the proper tone-how nice it is to wake up this morning, read you all's words and get started on my cookies.
Oh, man-I read the comments to Quinn's and Meachum's essays. I even felt compelled to throw one in, but now I'm just depressed about it, mainly because both those essays were depressing to me(especially Meachum's), so thanks again you guys.

TAMMY

You are fortunate to be able to be a "stay at home mom". Enjoy! I would have given my right arm (or some body part) to be able to do that. Of course, as always, looking back I see how much I missed. Reading to your kids is a very smart thing to do. Have your read any of the post on Talking To My Children About God? I thought somewhere back you talked about that with another poster on this blog. Some interesting posts and some not so interesting and nasty posts there.

I am going North for the holidays and decided to take my book cover and all. Tammy, I like your attitude. I am a big girl now. It will provide me with an excellent conversation piece. Everyone can go off to church and I can stay home and read all of the reasons that I choose not to go with them. Ha Ha

I live in Central Florida and there is a church of some sort on every corner. I swear they make them up as they go along. Names I have never heard of. If you can rent a store front you can start a church. Amazing!!!!

I don't recall anyone ever asking me what religion I am (except for my ex son-in-law) which I detailed the story in an earlier post. Wierd wouldn't you say. My friends here are Catholic and have known me for years and know not to invite me to church. We never discuss religion. I am certain that they discuss between themselves how I will certainly end up in hell. I would love to be a little mouse and listen to that one.

I think Richard is right that we have driven all the lunatics away because they don't have the patience to scroll down this far to argue with us.

Yes, I had Richard in a real tizzy when I posted the Prager article. Although I have to give the "devil" his dues as I did not make it very clear that it was not MY opinion. Gee, I thought you could read my mind by now Richard.

Being the new kid on the block here I have many questions. So I will keep on keepen on and see if all of you intelligent people come up with answers.

Ted,
Sounds like a great life and a great family. So much intelligence. Canada and South Africa? What a unique mix.
I'll work on that Prager/Ellison stuff. Boiling it down to the germainities takes a little time. My viewpoint on that single issue has become more complex because of these discussions.
Yes, this is the nicest group of people. We six have bored everybody else away with our incisive but respectful banter. All the bloodthirsty ones have moved on. It's cozy but still stimulating waaay dowwwn heeere. I just measured it. On my monitor, this page is now roughly 195 feet or 59.44 meters deep.

Torrey,
Great story. With Clem and Bubba in your home, what the heck would have happened next if you had said any number of other, just as honest responses that they might not have used to jump to a safe conclusion? By "look of relief" and "Oh good," it sounds like they were apprehensive, not just curious. I can't put my finger on it; was it simple naiveté, or an insular, circular, wrapped-up-in-itself thought process that resulted in, "so you're a Christian then?" What an amazing collection of "Iconry." That wasn't in my Oxford Dictionary of Every Bleedin' English Word, but I wrote it into the margin. I like it. It sounds like irony.

Tammy,
It is very very cool that you read with your kids. How many?

Tammy,
You are a wicked, wicked woman. Keep up the good work!

I live in southern California, where Baywatch is real, so I can get away with more mischief than maybe someone in Utah, the South, or Darkest Pennsylvania. Here the in-your-face stuff is not so often or intense. Usually I practice "Nice Atheism," but once in a while I transgress. One summer evening I had set up a small telescope on the sidewalk near a shopping center, as it is one of my astronomy club's favorite things to do, free to the public. I was showing passersby a very nice view of Jupiter, with its four biggest moons all in a row. Most people remarked about the beauty of the sight and their fascination in the interesting things I was saying about it. One young man looked through the 'scope, turned his extremely, extremely clean face to me and said, "It's wonderful to see the glory of God, isn't it?" Now, I try to be a Nice Atheist, and to be tactful and non-confrontive. I said, "It's very beautiful." Not satisfied with my neutral answer, he pressed me with something like, "But doesn't so much beauty make you sure it was all created by God?" Now, his going to the next level like that is unusual in the Land of Avocados. We try to keep things laid back. Still in a casual tone, I replied, "Everybody sees what they want to see." Well this extremely, extremely clean guy was determined to get a definitive answer from me. Probably just as much Irish as I am. He said, "Don't you believe in God?" I wasn't planning to ever go back to that viewing site, and I was almost ready to pack up, and I was bigger than him so I figured I had nothing to lose. So I faced him squarely, looked him straight in the eye and said in my best baritone, "There's three things I never discuss with strangers: My sex life, my bowel habits, and my spiritual beliefs." He squeaked an almost inaudible, "Oh," and left. In the privacy of my car I laughed wickedly all the way home but then did ten push-ups and had only one scoop of chocolate ice cream as a penance.

Okay Richard, here's the funny shunning story: One day out in my yard, working with a small crew that was putting in a new driveway, a large redneck truck pulled up and a couple of guys who identified themselves as being from the next town over asked if they could have a close-up look at my house which is rather unusual. I took them in for a whirlwind tour and as they were about to leave, they noticed some religious iconry (is that a word?) on a wall by the door -- stuff from several different religions including a framed sheet of decorated Arabic that is actually a page from the Book of Mormon in Syrian. One of them said, "So which religion are you?" I answered, "I'm the same religion as God." A look of relief spread over their faces and one said, "Oh good, so you're a Christian then." I've laughed for years over that one!

You guys are a really lovely bunch of people. When I read Tammy's comment that "It's really easy to check in here and find that no one is being lousy to anyone .. . " I am quite sure I am hanging out with the right crowd.

As far as the Prager lunacy is concerned -- about forcing people to swear on the Bible -- I think Tammy is bang on when she says "we are the repository of our own values". It is kind of Richard W to suggest that he might excise the unwanted segments of the discussion and post it here. I am sure we can come to a common mind that it would be for the best if we foreswore swearing on the Bible or the Qur'an or anything else.

I am fascinated to see how many of you are reading good books. Whenever I feel somewhat down in the dumps I console myself with the fact that there are an incredible number of really good books out there and I return to thinking there is hope for us. If only more people would read mark and inwardly digest this treasure house of books the future of mankind would be rosy.

If it helps you to feel more confident in your beliefs and actions Tammy let me pass on the information that none of our four children were christened (or dedicated) in church and it has done them no harm. One is a family physician, her twin brother has a Ph.D. in electrical engineering, and one of the other girls has an honours degree in microbiology. And all four of our six grandchildren have also avoided christening/dedication. So lie easy to the fact that you stand out from the crowd.

Here in Canada I never feel the need to hide any of the books I read but I do love the brown paper story. When I went to school (a long time ago) books were regarded as very precious and we children were all expected to make brown paper covers for them.

In my second language (Afrikaans)we use to always say -- in parting: Ry stadig oor die klippies (Ride carefully over the rocks).

Ted

I just thought of something while I was putting clothes in the dryer(sorry if this proves what you may have suspected all along, that being a stay-at-home housewife can be at times intellectually understimulating);

Someone as cool as Richard or Torrey could be living near me, taking their kids to the same gym as me, for example, but if we hide the books we're reading, we'll never find each other. So there is more to it than the wicked thrill I'll get the first time I'm seen at the dr.'s office or whereever reading "The God Delusion".

Richard, You could be right about that website I mentioned. It would be no fun to get into it online with strangers, but it could be useful with people face-to-face who have the audacity to ask nosy questions, like "What church do you go to?","Why don't you take your girls to church?" ,or my favorite, "When are you having your girls dedicated in church?"
Besides, I don't get a lot of time to be in front of the computer(at least just for me), so I don't go too in-depth into very many sites, unless it's stuff I'm reading with my kids. It's really easy to check in here every so often, find that noone's being lousy to anyone, and maybe throw in my 2 cents.

Tammy,
I went to Vastleftwingconspiracy.com and couldn't figure out how to use those strange sections, "Win, Wing, Left, Twin, Visa," etc. Putting "bible study for atheists" into their site search box didn't produce something like that. Anyway, if it's a tool for atheists to argue chapter and verse with Christians, I'd rather not. I started reading it as a kid on my own, and part way through I decided it just didn't make sense. There's no way I could hold my own in a match with a well-versed Bible thumper. As a counselor I learned not to argue with the delusions of my craziest patients because my reason wasn't contagious but their craziness was. My jewish-turned-atheist friend likes to say, "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It annoys the pig and it wastes your time."
If it's something else however, let me know.
Torrey,
I'd like to hear the funny shunning story. I've sure heard a lot of the unfunny ones. As for the badge of honor thing, that's a lame consolation that requires denying reality. Being shunned, rejected or persecuted sucks, and that's that. We have to endure it or fight it, or "heaven forbid," give in to it.
I might actually take you up on your gracious invitation. I sometimes pass through southern Utah on my way to the North Rim of the Grand Canyon, to do public "star parties" with my big, fat, manly telescope. My friends and I could show you the deep sky. It probably won't be for more than a year, though. I went last summer, and can't this summer, but maybe the next. I'd be astonished if I actually found you by asking for the "town heretic." I wouldn't want to stir up trouble. I wish this site had private "chatrooms" so we didn't have to be so coy about where and who we are.

It's such a lovely afternoon I should get out into it. I'll check back in a few hours. Bye.

Tammy,
On the Dennis Prager/Keith Ellison issue:
Pam and I got into a confusing mix-up when she brought up this issue next door on the "common ground" discussion, page 13. She was quoting things from Prager's article, and I thought they were her opinion, so I impulsively jumped down her throat. We've sorted it all out now, and are friends again. (kiss kiss) I'm glad she and now you brought it up, because it is very pertinent to both these blogs. Despite my misdirected indignation, my opine was pretty good stuff, if I say so. Ted Swart had an even better one in rebuttal to me. If people want, I could edit out all the foaming at the mouth at the wrong person and post it over here, and maybe Ted could put in his views. But you just put it all in a nutshell: "WE are the repository of our values." That's right. Our values are defined by how we live, not what we say or pretend or what we read in an old book.

Yeah, my reading list is hopelessly long too. I'm still trudging through Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World" I promised myself I'd finish it.

Huh. It just struck me that's one attraction to fundamentalism. You only have to read one book. I remember a conversion story I think was by the TV cook the "Galloping Gourmet." Remember him? Anyway, the kernel of the story was that the night stand on his side of the bed was piled with books on philosophy, science, all sorts of intellectual literature, while on his wife's nightstand there was only one book, the Bible. This was presented as the dramatic manifestation of why he should dump all that other stuff and convert to the One Book. Sad, really, for an intelligent guy to carve out big portions of his mind and flush them, just for the comfort of intellectual simplicity. That was years ago, and I don't really know what he actually is like now, but the story has the power of a maxim: "Thinking is hard. This is easy."

Torrey, I think the rest of us have been grossly misinformed about Utah! There obviously are some cool people there after all...
My state, PA, has recently been described as Philly and Pittsburg with Alabama in between. I'm not sure who should be offended most by that, so I, of course, take it as a joke.
People who discriminate want to, I think to save themselves the trouble of finding out the truth about somebody. Religion isn't the only thing that sets me apart from my neighbors, but I keep hoping that as long as I'm doing my best, people can live and let live. We'll see.

Has anyone else seen anything about that Prager's recent remarks about the Muslim who was just elected to the U.S. congress? Sorry, I forget the gentleman's name, but he wants to swear his oath of office, or whatever, using the Koran, and this talk-radio guy Prager(he's Dennis, right?) thinks we should force him to swear on the christian bible. Prager says the Bible is the repository of our values.
When will these people realize that we are the repository of our values? When will they realize that they are preventing U.S. citizens, like Muslims and atheists, from feeling like it's our country, too?
Richard, have you checked out Vastleftwingconspiracy.com? They have a Bible Study for Atheists. I don't get a lot of non-kid-related time on the computer, so I haven't checked it out as fully as I'd have liked. I haven't checked out that site you mentioned yet, either, but I plan to.
You people just keep adding to my already too long reading list. When my amazon books get here, I don't know what to read first, "The God Delusion" or that new Carl Sagan book. I might read the Dawkins book first, because I haven't read any of his other books yet. It also has a more noticeably blasphemous title, so I sort of get a little evil thrill picturing people's faces when I get "busted" reading it.
It's not much, but it's my Christmas present to myself.

Another great LOL from Richard.
Regarding the anecdotes about the 'shunning' we atheists are subjected to: I once made the mistake of telling a small group at a dinner party that I don't believe in the Bible God. That 'news' must have spread through town like an e.coli virus. People are aghast to know there's a heretic in their midst. I've sensed so many negative reactions that I've lost count -- some have hurt me personally or professionally but one, at least, was very funny! (And Richard, I too take off the covers of the 'would-be-banned books' and then hide the books in my bookshelves. A years-long habit I'm afraid.)

Mormon missionaries get doors slammed in their faces every single day and consider it a badge of honor. Wish I could do the same.

I have enjoyed the company of the wonderful folks on this site, that if any of you are ever traveling through the southern Utah National-Park country, look me up at any Wayne County post office. Just ask for the town heretic and everybody will know who that is! You'll all get free lodging at my house.

"Ted, Your description of GOD except for the part about creating the universe unless I have forgotten that I did that you are describing ME."

Aah, Grasshopper Pam, you and Ted have stumbled upon the Great Truth. Now go get Master Po a cuppa joe.

Ted,
Your description of GOD except for the part about creating the universe unless I have forgotten that I did that you are describing ME. You have me totally confused.

And Richard I love coffee!!! For those of us to have been brave enough to use our real names I am sure we will get some of those millions. The rest will have to fight for their share.

Ted,
I like your vision of God. Do you think he likes coffee?
You said, "God has to have a sense of humour since he could not possibly survive without it."
That's for damn sure. None of us will survive without it.

As for what Meacham and Quinn will do with all our collected profundity, they'll compile it into a best-selling book, make millions of dollars, not give any of us a penny, but that's okay 'cause it will SAVE THE WORLD!!!

Or they'll just push "delete."

Well now Nice Atheist(alias Richard Wade): you sure display a nice sense of humour.

Since I am an agnostic rather than an atheist I don't entirely rule out the existence of some kind of god. So I have often speculated on what such a god would have to be like. The theists or religious types will not like what I have to say in this regard but here goes:

God is not the creator of anything since if he was the creator of the universe then who created him/her/it?

God has to have a sense of humour since he could not possibly survive without it.

God could not possibly have died for our sins since he/she/it is feeling his/her/its way forward along with the rest of us.

Despite all the problems in the world God is glad to be alive and fascinated by the interesting and complex way things have been put together.

God loves all other animals just as much as he loves humans.

God sometimes feels frustrated, oft times feels sad and is even, at times, out of sorts.

Dare I go on? . . Ted . .

P.S: There is one thing that bothers me about this whole forum on faith . No one seems to be able to tell me what Newsweek and the Washington Post intend to do with all this wealth of material. I have tried to contact John Meacham and Sally Quinn without any success.

I started reading The God Delusion this afternoon and already I am hooked on the book. I have to let things sink in before I can comment.

Ted I also read your post. I usually can't get through long ones but yours I read several times. At least you make sense. I liked it.

Richard I am going to check out the other website you found. I don't think this message board will close, people just stop blogging and so the people that are left eventually stop also. I thought this website would be maintained much better than it has been. Ha Ha fooled me. Later

Ted,
Good to hear from you. I like your posts. They're so densely packed with thought it takes me a long time to sort out my responses, if I even dare. Don't be so scarce.
Meanwhile guys,
I’ve been looking around for another place to play in case this site closes down before we’re all sick of each other. Some of the atheist/agnostic sites are kinda fringy, but one, ravingatheist.com seems intelligent, topical and has a forum with several running questions. A quick glance at the discussions showed they are current, lively and positive.
Well, I couldn’t resist putting my two cents in, or my two scents for that matter. If you want some more of my silliness read the Raving Atheist’s brief article there about the Portland atheist expelled from art school. He sums up the resulting discussion on Pharyngula (a cool science kind of forum) quite well. Take his link to the comment section of Pharyngula and near the bottom of that string is an edict by the Nice Atheist. (hee hee)

My apologies at the outset for a rather long comment.
1.Firstly, I think that Sam Harris is to be congratulated for setting in motion the most lively debate in this forum. Most of what he says in his two books is both true and helpful. This is not to say that his emphases are all sound but he writes very lucidly and convincingly. Moreover, it would seem from the comments in this discussion, that quite a few of the participants are relieved to learn that their scepticism regarding traditional religious beliefs is widely shared.
2.Searching for the truth is an interesting topic and, for me personally, one of the most interesting verses in the Bible arises from the attempt by Moses to communicate with God in his encounter with the burning bush. God is reported as having said; “ I am who I am”. In the end things are as they are. And what ultimately stands as judge of the veracity of our beliefs is the actual nature of the physical world and our role in it.
3.It is right to explore various possible sources of truth and right to question whether or not science is the only source of truth. But, what is entirely inappropriate is to reject the notion that science is an important source of truth. Science in its relentless manner has established that the earth is billions of years old. And we know from both fossil and DNA evidence that evolution actually occurred. We even know that if we follow our maternal line back in time some 100,000 years we arrive at a great great . . . grandmother who is common to every singly human being on earth (the so-called mitochondrial Eve). And if we go back some 60,000 years we likewise arrive at a great, great . . . grandfather who is also common to every single human being on earth (the so-called Y-chromosome Adam). And those who reject the occurrence of evolution and believe baseless nonsense about the earth being 6,000 year old are quite simply denying the truth.
4.Harris is somewhat critical of those whom he refers to as moderate religious believers. These are the people who believe in the findings of science but still belong to one or other of the more moderate Christian denominations (ditto for moderate Muslims). Even the Roman Catholic Church, which has not exactly been very prompt in accepting the findings of science, has -- under the previous pope – officially apologized for its treatment of Galileo and officially accepted the occurrence of evolution. So, despite Harris' criticism of moderates they certainly have a much more defensible position than fundamentalists who believe in the literal existence of Adam and Eve as described in the Bible. Moreover, I think it is a mistake to ignore the fact than ,in a very real sense, Western Civilization grew up, to a significant extent, arm in arm with a maturing Christianity. The direct and indirect contribution of Christianity to art, music and architecture – and,even to some extent, science -- is enormous.
5.There has been talk in this discussion about the process of changing religion and/or changing from religion to atheism/agnosticism. The vast majority of religious believers accept the faith they were brought up with and -- because of the mutual incompatibility of different faiths – this, in itself, is a red flag pointing out the need for all of us to examine our belief sets very carefully. In my own case I have changed from the Anglican belief set (which I was brought up in) to the Quaker belief set (which is virtually a different religion since it has no creeds, no priests/ministers and no sacraments) and finally to agnosticism. And all I can say is that these changes in my life sprang from nothing other than a quest for truth. I would only add that such changes in the lives of individuals can only occur when they are ready for them.
6.Let me close by wishing you all well in your quest for truth since drawing closer and closer to it during our passage through life does indeed help to set us free.

Pam,
Keep coming back (to the blog) it works.

The usual Christmas stuff is done. Tree decorated, cards in the mail and presents wrapped. Sometimes having an obsessive personility works to my benefit. Ha Ha

Richard and Torrey a member of my home group is the story "Windows of Opportunity". A great guy and we have had many discussions about the GOD thing. Richard I like your statement of "whatever works for you". My first counsler after rehab happened to be a non-believer. She was instrumental in my recovery. Because I had absolutely no desire to stop drinking and could not or would not "get" the GOD thing she saved my you know what. The state I live in now actually has AA meetings for atheists. No, I have not yet decided to participate!!!!

One of the people I was in treatment with (in another state from where I lived) happened to be from my local area and we stayed in touch for years. Actually we celebrated our 10 years together. By that time he had become a Jesus person. No meetings just Jesus. Hey it works for him. Every year I get a Christmas card from him with Jesus pamphlets enclosed. I try and explain to him that it is not my thing. What bothers me is that he "won't) seem to get it. That is my problem with people who have converted they think they have to convert me.

Because I struggled with religion my entire life(and I am old) I really appreciate this website. It gives me the ability to read and digest information from all sides. Yes, I do read other pages.

My sister sent me a copy of The God Delusion. I suppose I need to take your advice Richard and make a new cover so when my frinds drop by and see it on my coffee table they do not faint from shock.

I think Tammy is correct when she says people are born into religion and are guilted into following it. It seems to be true of most of the people I know. Again as my good friend said once, "people believe in GOD because they are afraid not to". He was Jewish.

My daughter's first husband asked me at the dinner table one evening if I had accepted Jesus as my personal savior. This came totally out of the blue. I explained to him that I had enough problems with GOD and had not even tried the Jesus part. At which time he politely said to me that I was no longer welcome at his dinner table. Sound like your Alaska experience Richard? Up until that period of time religion had never been discussed and while I relized he was involved in a church and because I "never" meddle in my children's adult lives had no idea as to how much involved he was. Needless to say that marriage did not last forever!!!!

Torrey, I volunteered for some years in an out-patient treatment program in my home town and became very close with the staff. I have to give you credit it is a tuff road to go. Burnout is huge in that profession. Like many in early recovery I thought about taking some classes at the local college and making a career change. After my volunteer work I realized I really did not want to do that. It takes a special person to survive in that line of work. Although I must admit is was a very helpful to my early recovery.

Back to the topic. I am thrilled to have people here that feel the same way I do about GOD and religion and can't express to all of you how much you have helped me to be OK with how I feel. I have always been a fish out of water in so many areas of my life and this one is no exception. I do not know of one person (except for my sister and she does not talk about her godlessness) who is not a part of organized religion. I see what they go through and I could go on and on about each one and their struggle. Someone said in a previous post that they feel such a sense of freedom not having to do this. That hit me like a bolt of lightning out of the blue. I could relate to that feeling right away.

OK I have gone on and on here and probably not shared much new enlightning information but hey it helped me.

My copy of "The God Delusion" just arrived from amazon.com. I'll replace the shiny silver dust jacket with a plain brown one that says either, "Musings on Quantum Fluctuations in a Stable Field," or "Septic Tank Repair." That way nobody will ask me what I'm reading.

Torrey,
What a small cyber world. I used to do the exact same kind of work for 10 years, counseling a thousand new patients assigned to me every year, and working with the patients of 20 other counselors as well. As far as using 12-step programs with or without a personal god, my position was and still is, "Hey, whatever works for you." Secular Sobriety was just getting started, and while some people were interested, they were hesitant because it had no reputation. They didn't want to take a chance on an unknown, and also there were very few meetings. So I advised them to make the group itself the power greater than themselves. Some patients would come back with stories about predatory "christians" trying to convert them at the meetings. I told them that kind of thing was out of line and to stay away from people like that. Some, as you describe, went back into religion after being out, but given their level of suffering, I'd rather see them sober Christians than dead atheists. In addiction it's all about what works.

Torrey,
Yeah, that kind of pokes a hole in my hypothesis. As Europe has progressed economically, religion's death grip has loosened. But in the States it seems like it's getting worse. It's perplexing.
Maybe what Tammy has brought up helps explain it a little. Yes, Americans are now among the most poorly schooled of all the industrialized nations. There has been an anti intellectual bias in America for generations. Politicians who are jocks get more votes than politicians who are eggheads. Kids are bullied in school just for being smart.
Tammy, I think you are also right about many American Christians going along with social pressure. Because I give science presentations for the public, I have met many people who are anguished by the conflict between what their sharp minds say, and what their families and friends say. They try to find a way to reconcile science and scripture, like with the ludicrous "creation science," but if they are cursed with being smart, it just doesn't work. The social and financial consequences of going against the herd are severe. So they keep their mouths shut, deny expression of a big part of themselves, and as a result they get depressed.

Oh my it is going to take days for me to catch up to everyone. I will read all of the latest later..........

Now I am off to do tooooooooooo many holiday duties "ugh". I keeping asking myself why why why am I doing this!!!!!!

Torrey-Do you think maybe people who've been spoon-fed christianity since birth are maybe guilted into keeping it going, even into stifling their own doubts in the face of scientific advancement? That's the only way I can explain it, and also, Americans tend to be ignorant.
Compared to other nations with anywhere near our creature-comfort level, aren't Americans still testing abysmally low in math, science, etc.? I'm pretty sure that's how any of these "creationist scientists" are able to continue making a living here.

It also bums me out when people give a god credit for their own good decisions, like staying clean or leaving an abusive boyfriend or whatever.

That makes a lot of sense, but how does it explain why the U.S. is one of the most religious countries in the world?

By the way, I work in a drug & alcohol rehab center based on AA and it breaks my heart to see so many sincere seekers for a higher power (who have, in their teens, doubted the existence of a Biblical god) return to that belief because of a few Christian 'subversives' in the organization. And, of course, they (the Christians) feel compelled by their God to do just that.

Torrey,
All those beliefs about heaven were formed back when life was short, dirty, painful, scary, and generally sucked. In places where life is still like that, religon has a stronger hold.
Malini, I hope your vision comes true.

Hallelujah Brother!
Cosmologically speaking, the chances of life existing on this planet are at least a billion to one. I'd call that a bloody miracle, and am ecstatically grateful that I've had the chance to hang around this incredible place for as long as I have. Just don't understand those who can't wait to go to Heaven.

Hi All!

The well wishing term “Reason’s Greetings” I learned from the discussion that originated after Sam Harris’ article “God’s Rottweiler Barks” was published.

If you read through that discussion/dialogue in SamHarris.Org, you will come across the origin of this statement.

I’m delighted that so many are joining in this discussion/dialogue on faith which is of vital importance for our own safety, survival and existence…today…tomorrow…and forever…

Any and everything associated with mankind has progressed, developed and changed from the ancient times except for faith. I strongly feel that the debates among all faiths will one day lead us to a completely civilized, understanding, tolerant, peaceful world… Lack of communication among the faiths, and their arrogance, pride, and stubbornness to listen to another’s point of view, has contributed to unimaginable devastation and destruction as we all experience today. We have lost respect and value for life… PERIOD…

It is high time we reevaluated our faiths and headed towards a spiritual direction that did not create any harm or destruction to anyone on this earth; and place value for life as the highest priority in every nation.

We all love our families, our freedom, and all the bounty that surrounds us… Let’s allow others to enjoy the same privileges too! After all, we all belong to the same human race… and share the same beautiful planet with its bounty. Let’s be fair, and just…

Season’s/Reason’s Greetings to all!

PS: Please keep talking and invite everyone into this discussion/debate/dialogue… as each and every life on this planet earth is precious, priceless, special, unique & irreplaceable.

Thanks!

Malini

Well, so much for my sabbatical. I was going to quiet down like Tammy was saying, but like her I just can't keep my mouth shut. I just jumped down the throat of somebody named Deacon John M. Bresnahan over on the "common ground" blog next door. Then I googled his name and got 12,600 references. He sounds like an important guy. I hope he doesn't beat me up.
So I came over here to huddle behind my friends and hold my little yellow blanket, and here you are having this cool talk and asking me stuff....
Yes, lets agree on where we can rendezvous just in case the cops raid this place.
Tammy, I'm sad to hear that you lost friends for reading a book. The revealing of how shallow and conditional that friendship was must have hurt. I have a motto on my office wall: "The truth shall set you free, but first it will make you miserable."

I just went to check it out again; it's proveyourgod.com (not "gods", plural)
There is a link to a blog on there, but it may not be as easy to use as this one, I'm not sure.

So much for listening more & talking less! I've actually created a montser(maybe). My husband posted his opinion on a "why men cheat" thing on yahoo earlier today.

Jason is right, that atheism doesn't teach people how to be good. Why do so many people need to be taught how to act?
What I propose is that so many people hold to religious beliefs for all the wrong reasons. We can't stand to lose our loved ones, so we pretend they live on forever; we commit unforgivable offenses, then we can't live with ourselves, so we pray to Jesus, who, of course, forgives us. It may seem hurtful to put it this way, but as we've all been witness to, religious dogma is the basis for a good many of the laws we in the U.S. are governed by. Why can't hunters in PA hunt on Sunday? It's the sabbath. Why can't Alain buy wine in UT on Sunday-sabbath. But for whom? Oh yeah, a select group of believers. The sabbath happens to fall on a different day for a different group, but to heck with those guys?
Absolutely not!Law-abiding Muslims should get to observe their sabbath, and Christians theirs, but there should be no legal, officially observed sabbath anymore. Not in a democracy.
Who says so? Our Constitution.
Torrey is right, about wanting the same respect as the religious, but you're not selfish, Torrey. It's our right.
Of course, this doesn't win me back any of the so-called friends I lost when I was seen reading a book titled "The End of Faith" a couple years back. I also don't pretend it's Sam Harris' fault if I don't fit in around here-I never did. I've always been caught reading "wierd"(i.e. nonfiction) books, and then having noone around to talk about it with.

Also, "Reason's Greetings" is a really good one! I'm still debating about the Festivus for the rest of us, though...

Richard W.-Your post from a couple nights ago, where you were worried that maybe we'll lose each other in cyberspace- don't worry. Did you check out Tom from the U.K.'s site proveyourgods.com? I thought I saw that he has a discussion board on there (somebody correct me if that's wrong).
Maybe we can meet up there if they kick us out of here. Check out that site anyways, if you haven't yet, it's got cool links on it. There's one called realrapture.com, which seems like a joke at first, until you realize that they mean it. I never knew.

Of course atheism isn't the answer. Has anyone claimed that it is? If I were god, I wouldn't do away with religion either -- there are millions and millions of people who wouldn't be able to function without it. At this moment, and from a very selfish point of view, I just want to be able to say, in public, that I'm an atheist (i.e., I do not believe that the God of the Bible exists) without being shunned, or worse.
I want the same respect that is presently afforded believers.

To me, the problem with faith is not epistemology.

The problem is that religion, as a promulgator of moral codes, requires or allows us to act in ways that can increase human suffering and reduce joy. We all know the examples: denying condoms promotes AIDS in Africa, teaching children to blow themselves up creates terrible suffering and loss.

Yet if we only argue against the faith that promotes bad courses of action, we haven't done enough. There are enough evil atheists and believers in the world driven by non-religious motivations, such as greed, anger or just a lack of empathy for their fellows.

Atheism by itself is not the answer. We still need to consider our fellow beings and our role in the world. These considerations don't have to come from our common mythologies, but they do have to come from somewhere. With or without references to the supernatural, we will still have to come to some agreements about individual rights and responsibilities and the definition of a good society.

We may have taken the shackles off our legs, but we still have a long way to go.

Torrey!
Is it kind-hearted? I mean, I want it to be, but good intentions aside, how it effects others is the test of that. Pam is right, I get wound up. Then I worry I've hurt someone's feelings. Time to calm down, breathe slowly and deeply, and let non-verbal things occupy my noisy mind. I may be lurking for a while, unless somebody says something I just cant leave alone. Alain, thanks for that amazing website! Too much to take in now.....Must rest ........ must........rest.
Alain, Tammy, Pam, Torrey, Ted and Ted, and so many others,
Thank you, all of you, my remarkable light-blue-and-black friends. Please keep the discussion going while I just listen.

Mirth on Earth.

Alain: I visited Edge.com and read Natalie Angier's 'My God Problem'. Her sense of humor is like Richard's, and her poke-in-the-eye-with-a-sharp-stick for all the atheist scientists who are silent on the subject of religion is very well aimed.

Richard -- whatever would I do without a daily dose of your fabulous (and kind-hearted) humor?
And to Malini: thanks for "Reason's Greetings" -- that's what my Christmas cards will say this year!

Hi Pam-It was a busy weekend, and I'll admit it, I'm not having any "deep thoughts", except I like Trish's Festivus idea, but it's already been taken!

Also, I tell my kids to listen more & talk less; maybe I should at least try to take my own advice.

Pam,
Not you, of course. There's just a couple of posters over there who seem to be receiving their information from Planet Kruton. I used to deal with disordered minds for a living, and now I just tire of it quickly. I won't ridicule them directly because that would be cruel. If my remarks about the dearly deranged are offensive, I apologize. I'll make no more such statements.

Hello Sam!

I hope you will receive the Noble Peace Price for your remarkable work!

Wishing you the best in your valiant attempt to rescue the world!

With love & Season's/Reason's Greetings to all,

Malini

Richard in referring to your message earlier, please define "fruitcake". Thanks

Yeah Tammy,
Your last post on 12-2 about holiday cards got me thinking:

How to be a Nice Atheist, installment 2

“Richard, we’ve got to get the Christmas cards sent out.”
“Ohhhhh, okaaaay.”……..(humbug)
So I pull out this big carton from the garage that has 27 pounds of old leftover Christmas cards. We buy them by the boxful to try to save some money, and we end up with leftovers. There are pretty ones and funny ones, but no really religious ones. Some say, “Merry Christmas,” or variants of that, some say, “Happy Holidays,” or variants of that, and a few odds and ends that mention Hanukah. The reason we have so many leftovers is because our family and friends fall into so many categories: Devout Christians, Not-too-heavy-Christians, Observant Jews, Unobservant Jews, Still-at-the-Zen-Center Buddhists, Drifting-around-ex-Buddhists, and of course the nice atheists.
Now comes the sorting of who gets what card. Some of the Devout Christians are getting touchy lately about sentiments that don’t mention the word, “Christmas.” The Not-too-heavy Christians are fine with anything except the Hanukah ones. The Observant Jews don’t complain, but we don’t want to send them one that does mention “Christmas.” The Unobservant Jews don’t seem to mind either way, but still it would be better that they get a Hanukah or “Happy Holidays” variant. The Zen Buddhists and the ex-Buddhists welcome any good wishes, though they know it’s all an illusion. Finally the nice atheists don’t care much one way or the other, but if we send them either kind of card, they might think I’m starting to get religion, and I wouldn’t want that. But I don’t want them to get nothing….
Then there’s the problem of whether or not we sent this person that card before. We don’t want to send anybody the same card twice. Most of them are pretty smart, and would remember a duplicate even if it was several years ago. Some of these cards are getting really old.
All this takes several hours, and I’m tempted to chuck the whole box in the fireplace and print up my own cards that say, “Wishing that you don’t get stuck in the snow while fighting the tiger shark feeding frenzy at the mall trying to find gifts for everybody who’s out getting stuff for you that you won’t like, and trying to avoid going broke in the process, in observance of whatever the heck holiday you celebrate, if any.”
But I don’t do that, because I’m a nice atheist.

For those interested, visit www.edge.org , very good debate ,including Sam Harris. Then we can comment.

Hi Torrey,

Great suggestion I have been using that page for a few days myself. It is much like this one. Sally is an atheist, however, she is searching right now. I believe that had much to do with creating this website.

TAMMY where are you??? Have you given up on us????

Torrey,
Yeah, I go over there once in a while. The streams of discussion are similar, but the level of vitriol can be pretty high, and I don't like that much fruitcake before Christmas.

I just tried another one of these discussions and had no trouble with speed. It was Sally Quinn's question about whether communication is possible when one side feels they're "absolutely right" (pardon my poor paraphrasing). The short bit I read sounds a lot like this discussion.

My laptop is the problem.

Torrey,
What is the problem some people are having getting to the bottom of the page? Alain is having trouble too. Do you have older computers that can't handle the large amounts of data? An hour to get down here? That's awful! How do you have to do it? It's instantaneous for me. I'm not bragging, I just want this site to work easily for everyone. Somebody said they'd written to the site managers about it, should we ask again? I don't understand this stuff. I'm from the analog generation.

If I use the down arrow key it takes forever, but don't you have an up-and-down bar thingy on the right edge of this window that you can click and drag down with your mouse? That takes about 3 seconds.

I've been away from the computer for a few days and this page is so slow that it's taken me an hour to get to the bottom (but it was worth it!). Richard, like you I hope Sam Harris will get a new photo! I almost didn't read the book because of that face. Also, I pushed 'end' as you suggested and had to start all over again (aaargh!).

I appreciate all of you so much -- please don't go away!

To Trish,
Yes, a kindness done just for the doing is preferable to one done to ingratiate a parent figure in the sky. Unfortunately, most people never grow up that far. They stop at Lawrence Kohlberg's lower stages of moral development, where they depend on reward or punishment, or at the very best a feeling that they have been "good." If you try to explain to them that a kindness can be done without a motive outside of itself, they look at you like you're nuts.

To Russ,
I ordered "The God Delusion" weeks ago, but it seems to have been waylaid. At my reading speed it will be several more weeks before I've read enough to make any comment.

To those who believe that truth, beauty, sharing, caring & so many virtues come only from religion, consider for a moment the world without a God or an afterlife whose joys or torments are dictated by God's command. Instead of having one's good deeds recorded & rewarded later [even if this reward is merely an avoidance of eternal torment]or one's misdeeds worked off in purgatory, if all we have is our brief little lives & our relationships with each other, what better motive would there be to be kind to everyone? Is not a kindness done just for how it makes the other person feel in that moment more moral than hoping that your kind act is some sort of cosmic Green Stamp that can be redeemed for shiny wings & a reserved space on a cloud?

Russell: I think you're so right about how secular societies have safely had the bomb for generations, but when it falls into the hands of a theocracy, we are in so much more danger! Look at the civilizations that have been destroyed by religions that didn't even have the bomb yet - Aztecs, Yanamamu, Native Hawaiian, etc, etc.

Maybe we should even start at Get Jesus out of December campaign - to increase the visibility of nonbelievers!

To Mark Deaton, who wrote movingly about his enjoyment of the "Christmas" season, as an atheist:

For decades, the Christians have been campaigning to "keep Christ in Christmas" and, more recently, getting all exercised when someone says Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Of course, winter celebrations with gifts, songs, stories & even decorated trees dragged indoors, did not flower out of the Life & Teachings of Jesus. All sorts of enjoyable practices were absorbed by Christians to make their takeover more palatable to conquered populations.

The problem the Christians have is that people keep slipping into the enjoyable, pagan parts of the holidays - gifts, parties, kissing, food & even drink. Even when all such are outlawed, for example, by the Puritans, they haven't been stamped out.

If you are an unbeliever & only enjoy the cultural bits, I say, be honest, be counted as an atheist and Get Jesus out of [your] December! Celebrate Saturnalia! Winter Solstice! or Festivus! Winter is cold & dark & gloomy - good excuses for parties & socializing. These are not religious practices & should not be abandoned just because one has abandoned religion.

Yes, I do think that cognitive dissonance plays a role. But there is something about the existential terror of the temporariness of life. It seems to be the primary burden of consciousnesss.

Have you read Dawkins new book, "The God Delusion." I would like to get your thoughts on his take on the roots of religious belief.

'There is a secular fundamentalism as well. Fascism ring a bell? To write religious discussion and faith off as "the problem" is to ignore the same level of vehement, unresolvable disagreements from a secular point of view.'

Sorry, no. Fascism is not an atheistic movement - for example, in Germany, it straddled Catholic & Protestant portions of German society. Unbelievers were not permitted to join the SS.

But faith is not the issue. Dogma is. To live together in peace requires acceptance, tolerance and change. An ideology that cannot accept diffences, tolerate disagreement and change after mistakes is one that cannot bring peace - No matter WHAT that ideology is. Whether we be Atheist, Christian, Muslim or Jew, Democrat or Republican, Capitalist or Socialist, an unwavering dedication to an unchangeable belief is a rejection of peace.But faith is not the issue. Dogma is. To live together in peace requires acceptance, tolerance and change. An ideology that cannot accept diffences, tolerate disagreement and change after mistakes is one that cannot bring peace - No matter WHAT that ideology is. Whether we be Atheist, Christian, Muslim or Jew, Democrat or Republican, Capitalist or Socialist, an unwavering dedication to an unchangeable belief is a rejection of peace.

So, if a person's belief is that a law-abiding but unbelieving person should be destroyed, that must be tolerated? Sounds awfully dangerous to me. Criminals firmly believe that the property,& even the very lives, of others, are theirs to dispose of. The law tries hard to disabuse them of this notion. Even with non-criminals, a rational, civil society needs to confront beliefs that affect the peaceful, healthy lives of others. A person can't just build an outhouse in a watershed - no matter how sincerely he believes the county commissioners overstate the potential harm to the water table. He may run for office, initiate a petition to change the law, apply for a zoning variance, or move to a county that permits outhouses. A civil society is more than just a collection of individuals & their various beliefs. The problem with faith-based beliefs & behaviors, is that those who hold them tend to be very intolerant of attempts to improve the human condition, scientific progress & social progress, on the theory that an immortal & incommunicado being might object. Rather than making rational decisions based on physical evidence to create the maximum health, happiness & productivity of all people, believers would have us decide which technology or social reform to accept or reject by attempting to retrofit ancient writings to either approve or damn the project. We might as well flip a coin.

Russ,
I wonder if for some people, fear of mortality is less dreadful than fear of being wrong. It may be very difficult for some people to admit to themselves that they have been dedicating enormous amounts of time, effort and money to a false cause, and that they have negatively affected others in the name of that cause. Did any of the people whom you asked describe chagrin as one of the main obstacles to letting go of their belief? For myself, the pain of, "How could I have been so stupid?" was blunted by humor, which has great healing properties. To see one's own foolishness, and then chuckle instead of cringe, is growth, but not everyone has that ability readily available.

Your other idea is hopeful, that the recent lunacy could be a tipping point toward more rationalism in the Islamic world. I really hope you're right, but broad changes like that have enormous collateral damage; witness the persecution of intellectuals and professionals in Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran, who, if they can, are emigrating to the West in large numbers. That reduces the number of potential rational thinkers to appeal to those in their own countries. Eventually all who are left may be the extremists and those who are easily lead. Some processes are self-accelerating rather than self-limiting.

Here you can see the roller coaster of my opti-pessimism. Weee!

'"In science, it is a cardinal sin to pretend to know something that you do not know."

And yet, we do all the time. Worse, favored hypotheises become entrenched dogma that require great efforts to change. Changing the date of American immigration and tossing out the Clovis theory took years with many pro-Clovis scientists adamnent that they were correct. I have seen many times when such and such a discovery has been declared the first without the disclaimer of "known" (e.g., the first "known" piece of writing, etc.).

Science requires a lot of faith and in the end, I think we'll find God to the Scientist. It's not a matter of "intelligent design" it's a matter of what existence is.'

And yet, those corrections were eventually made. This is not because scientists maintained "faith" in old theories. It was the product of very human flaws - inertia, taking the word of "experts" over the word of novices, not investigating matters once they are "settled".

But the main difference between the defending of an eventually-supercseded scientific theory & faith is this: scientists defend theories where they have seen evidence that makes the claims seem reasonable to them - they don't just say "this must be right" on the word of a 2000 year old document.

Richard; I struggle with this one as well. I ask people who have broken free of religious belief systems just what it was that led them to reject something they were likely taught from birth, and under pain of everlasting damnation no less! They generally give me some version of the "mounting untenability" problem, as in, "I could kind of swallow this, and then maybe this, but when it finally got to THAT, I just realized what a house of cards it all is. And if THIS religion is a house of cards, and this other one is based on the same foundation, then it all came down for me." I think that maybe the (only) postive thing that can come from some of the outrageous acts that are carried out by Islamists, along with the accompanying "justifications" (like making it possible for the Mahdi to climb out of the well, or the 72 virgins thing), will cause some number of people to recognize the modern equivalent of medievel christian thought and mount the stairs of "untenability." But, it is some kind of powerful thing, this fear of mortality.

To Russ McGrady,
You capsulize my concerns succinctly. I just wish Harris and the rest of us could come up with practical solutions that people could and would actually apply to step back from this lethal insanity. We're all in agreement that our house is on fire. We've argued over whose fault it is, and may never agree completely on that, but what about putting out the frikkin' fire? I have no ideas, does anybody have any?