Seeking Truth in Freedom

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salman's documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhIkCH4sScM

this guy's risked his life for peace...

get some manners lib, and ill consider answering.
as it is- i am not answerable to you in any way- especially when you are so bluntly confrontational without even a by your leave.

mercy, i havent been here for a month and the first thing you react to is another nonsensical demand.

where do you get this stuff?

somehow you labor under the misapprehension that i have some power over time and space for my opinion to have any impact whatsoever on the religious freedoms of the entire globe.

get some manners- rephrase in a reasonable fashion.

im happy to respond then.

i applaud the authors efforts to extend the hand of friendship to people of other faiths and to create unity and good will in a public forum.

its certainly more than what most of us do.

Victoria,

Simply answer the following question. Do you support global freedom of religion??

i think its always been the artists and musicians in the world who have tried to establish harmony and accord out of chaos and discord.
one of my most delightful discoveries in my research into islam was reading the quran where it states that one must deeply investigate and study it, and if one finds it to be truth- accept it. i did and i do.

Separation if mosque and state?

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070605/SCHOOLS/706050368

A Hermit,

I basically point out the problems with the foundations/links to heaven of contemporary religions. Deeds attributed to said religions are typically 24/7 front page news so there is no need to.

I assume you promote global freedom of religion?

"The major question for both musicians and for all artists in general: Do they promote global freedom of religion??????"

This one obviously does, so wouldn't it be a novel idea to talk about that instead posting long non-sequitor comments about other people's bad deeds and denouncing their faith as evil? Are you promoting freedom of religion when you do that?

Just a thought...

The major question for both musicians and for all artists in general: Do they promote global freedom of religion??????

WHAT THE HECK DID THIS GUY DO?

Here's what he did on May 1st:

"Common Chords," a celebration of Muslim and
Jewish music, will be presented at Queens College on Tuesday, May 1 from 4:30 to 6:30 pm in LeFrak Concert Hall. Featuring SALMAN AHMAD of Junoon, South Asia's most popular rock band, and Yale Strom, the world's leading Klezmer artist, the concert is the final event in a semester-long series on bridging the cultural divide between Muslims and Jews. It is part of "The Middle East and America: Clash of Civilizations or Meeting of the Minds," Queens College History Professor Mark Rosenblum's nationally acclaimed project to promote understanding and informed discussion about the Middle East conflict on campus, in high schools, and in the larger community. This project is an initiative of the Michael Harrington Center at Queens College and the Taft Institute.

The evening will also include "Shared Traditions," an on-screen photographic
essay on the common aspects of Islam and Judaism. This will be presented by Gul Rukh Rahman and Ari Alexander, co-directors of the international online organization Children of Abraham. Begun in 2004 by Alexander, an American
Jewish man, and Maria Ali-Adib, a Syrian Muslim woman, the organization strives for a deeper understanding between the two faiths through a
photographic exploration of similarities in their rituals and customs.

Queens College alumnus Mohammad Salman Hamdani will also be honored at the Common Chords event. A Pakistani Muslim American who died saving lives on September 11, 2001, Hamdani was at first unfairly suspected of abetting the
attack on the World Trade Center. His mother, Talat Hamdani, will be presented with an inscribed plaque commemorating her son's heroism. A reception featuring Halal and Kosher cuisine will close the evening.

This event, which is free and open to the public,

Frank, from now on I will simply ignore you! YOU STINK! Du bist ein ganz bloedes Rindvieh! Schaeme Dich!!!

Is it a religion just because someone says it is?
would anyone deny that the promotion of any group or organization, even if it calls itself a religion, or a political party, is vile and offensive - if the stated goals of that group consists of hating any specific group or religion,
to kidnap them,
torture them,
hold them for ransom,
cut off body parts,
rape them,
put them into slavery,
murder them if they do not convert to become a member of this group or club and
murder them if they dont want to stay in the club.
you see the people they hate are jews, muslimss, hindus, anynone not part of their group. so in a way they are like nazi, except this group hats many more people than the nazis ever hated.

can you guess who this group is? here is a hint.

here is what a leading Christian preacher recently wrote:

"If Christian people work together, they can succeed during this decade in winning back control of the institutions that have been taken from them over the past 70 years. Expect confrontations that will be not only unpleasant but at times physically bloody.... This decade will not be for the faint of heart, but the resolute. Institutions will be plunged into wrenching change. We will be living through one of the most tumultuous periods of human history. When it is over, I am convinced God's people will emerge victorious." Pat Robertson

or this:

"If there is found among you, within any of your gates which the Lord your God gives you, a man or a woman who has been wicked in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing His covenant, who has gone and served other gods and worshipped them, either the sun or moon or any of the hosts of heaven which I have not commanded you, and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently. And if it is indeed true and certain that such an abomination has been committed in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has committed that wicked thing, and stone to death that man or woman with stones." (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)

That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:13)

The following is just a fraction of the repulsive behavior the Christians have been involved with over the centuries. Have a look on other Internet sites for the details of how they tortured their victims during the inquisition or a description of a witch burning (or just leave it to your imagination)...

The early years: As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire pagan priests were killed. Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain and their temples destroyed. Participation in pagan services were punishable by death in 356 (and this included children).

Murdering intellectuals: Hypatia, a famous female philosopher was torn to pieces by a hysterical Christian mob using glass fragments in a church in 415. In 1538 a university professor, B. Hubmaier, was burned at the stake in Vienna.

The Crusades: During the First (1096) and Second (1147) Crusade thousands of Jews were slaughtered. During the Third Crusade (1189-1190) English Jewish communities were sacked. In 1099, Jerusalem was conquered at the cost of more than 60,000 men, women, and children. In the words of one witness: "there was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude." The total number of victims of the Crusades is likely to be around 20 million. During the Crusades against Hussites in the 15th century, thousands were slain.

Exterminating Jews: In the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned and Jews killed by Christians. In 1348 about 20,000 Jews in Basel were burned by Christians, the next year all the Jews in hundreds of towns were killed (mostly burned). In Poland in 1648, during the Chmielnitzki massacres, 200,000 Jews were slain. Not only did the Nazis (lead by a Christian) exterminate millions of Jews but other Christians set up death camps, independently of the Nazis, and murdered about half a million victims of various backgrounds. They were even efficient enough to have a camp specifically for children.

The slaughter of Jews by Christians is particularly repulsive. I thought they both believed in the same god. One good thing about Christians is they don't have favourites - they'll torture and murder anyone or any group if it will help them gain or maintain power.

The Spanish Inquisition: In 1568 the Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in the Netherlands. Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada, a former Dominican friar, was responsible for over 10,000.

Witch Hunting: In the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand witches (about 80% female) were burned at the stake or hanged. During the 16th century accusations of witchcraft were widespread: English Catholics were murdered by Protestants (30,000 were burned at the stake), in Germany 100,000 witches were killed. Similar behavior occurred in other Christian countries.

Christian Wars: In the 17th century, Catholics sacked the city of Magdeburg killing about 30,000 Protestants. In one single church fifty women were found beheaded, and infants were still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers. During the 30 Years' War, involving Catholics and Protestants at least 40% of population was decimated.

And its still happening: A court in Rwanda has sentenced two Roman Catholic priests to death for their role in the genocide of 1994, in which up to a million Tutsis and moderate Hutus were killed. Different sections of the Rwandan church have been widely accused of playing an active role in the genocide of 1994.

can anyone guess the name of this terrorist organization?

--------------

See Frank; anyone can play this stupid cut and paste game of yours. Now please shut up so the grown ups can have a conversation.

And the "blog hog" awards for yesterday go to Frank, Paganplace and Gaby.

Frank:

"you saw it as jobs germans would not do and i saw reality - germany needed people to fill jobs that expansion created. it was not that germany had a high unemployment and just brought in others to do jobs they would not do. you looked at it through a childs eyes - thats all. children frequently get it wrong."

YOUR ARE A TWIT!

I do know whereof I speak. Once, just once listen!

When I was a childm the Italians came, when I was a teenager, the Jugoslavians came, when I was an adult the Turks came.

Can't you ever just listen for a change? Do you always have to be sooooo abnoxious?

I didn't leave Germany until I was 27 years old.

You call that a child?

Oh, and, Frank. You may call yourself what-you-named-yourself all you want, but I'll thank you not to put 'Pagan' in your screen name.

That's a lie, apart from the obvious attempt to slur. And you wouldn't want to deal with what Pagans expect you get of such things.

Umm, is there a rich person here?

"Bono",

Please verify that you are indeed Bono of the U2. That might be tough to do on a blog commentary open to all net users with no ID required. For all we know, you might be Salman's brother or a member of some Islamic propaganda group."

It appears, Anonymous, that someone was quoting a letter from Bono that appeared on the singer's website, there's no one here on WaPo claiming to be Bono. :)

"pagan
i dont attack you - i insult you and there is a difference.
i dont by your pagan, witch, warlock, lady, mother, crap, thats all."

I didn't ask you to.

You, however, insistently fail to understand what I'm talking about, you simply decided, 'I don't like this answer of Pagan's, so I'll make up my own and say *that's* what she believes so I can be the more insulting.'

"but you do the same with christians.

I wouldn't say so. Actually, I'm pretty darn well educated on what Christians believe, in the many variations. And I try not to be mere'y insulting where I disagree.

"but you do appear to fall into the category of the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

You appear to understand nothing else but a) enemies. and b) Black and white, all-or-nothing, for-me-or-against me.

In a complex situation such as world religions, *that* is what's crap.

"as you feel christians are your enemy - throwing holy warer and bibles one and all - then the enemy of christians is your friend - islam."

Actually, there's a great deal more to it than that, Frank, (someone else raised that as an example of Christian behavior.)

I told you I wasn't going to relate some of my own stories in that regard. But Christianity is not my enemy. (Though some Christians will insist on telling you different in order to continue certain disgraceful and oppressive behavior toward us, )

Islam's not a particular friend of mine, either. I do see it as an oppressive system that reveres words which can in fact be used to legitimize or even demand oppression of others.

'Muslims' are not my enemy, either.

"and you are wrong when you say that i dont listen to what you say. well maybe you are right - i cant listen to the typed word."

That's a functional problem with your words, here, Frank, they aren't based in communication, ...they're simply based in your idea of 'sides and enemies.'

When people become blind to others' humanity, and the complexity of some of these situations, they stop being critical of their own actions, (and their own 'side's' actions) ..and see only what leads to war and oppression.

Believe me, oppression is an 'enemy' of mine, if I truly have one. Whatever 'skin' it wears.

"but i do read what you write, its that i dont agree with you. many people like you make that mistake. they so believe that their opinion is so strong that if someone does not agree with them it must be because they did not actually read it."

Actually, Frank, the problem would seem to be you antiprocess anything said that doesn't fit your all-or-nothing-friends-and-enemies worldview, and think it's OK to say, 'I don't agree with what they say about themselves, so I may as well say they're about something else I made up.'

You either have poor reading comprehension or severe intellectual dishonesty because of this.

"well i read everything. and i usually go paragraph by paragraph to refute what you write -"

You can't *refute* what you refuse to understand cause you simply call it 'crap.'

When you characterize what you should therefore have read over and over again, your lack of comprehension upon which you base your insults and defamations shows.

"so i do read your comments - but i think your hate for christians clouds your vision about your new best buddies - allah and moho the child rapist."

For instance, your insistence that I 'hate Christians' and that somehow 'Mohammed is my buddy.'

Your cut and paste spam and ranting based on false premises has become something *not* read anymore, cause it's repetetive, genegenerally off-topic, and generally attacking those who seek to *lessen the oppression endemic to Islamic countries and systems.

You're the one, I think, whose vision is dangerously-clouded: declaring someone an enemy and then refusing to *see* them is always an equation for stupidity and horror.

I thought, as I said before, that something had to be done about the Taliban *before* 9/11.

You always ignore things like that.

I say, we cannot counter extremism by becoming hateful extremists ourselves. That's kind of what the *terrorists* want.

For us to stop thinking.

Cause all they *have* is war and oppression for a world. It's traumatized behavior that tries to resolve itself by retraumatizing itself and hoping it'll come out better next time... inherently self-destructive and fearful.

We need to give them something else.

Part of the problem, Frank, is that you aren't seeing the whole world picture, here. It may be comfy and easy for you to draw up sides, as though we would even have *time* to 'make oppressive Islam go away, to be replaced by our own control of 'for us or against us,'

There stands to be a lot of death and war and privation and displacement of people if we don't all get together and manage things well... Under stress, these oppressions will tend to get worse, unless something better.. a better hope, is offered.

You think that people who talk like you aren't being geared up in an abstract way to 'purge atheists and Pagans and Muslims' because Christianity is so fixated on having 'enemies?'

By polarizing so, you only put the liberals and moderates and reformers (and strong women) in the Islamic world in a more-dangerous position, because the radicals and oppressors there, well, they see the world in that 'enemies' way, too.

"Bono",

Please verify that you are indeed Bono of the U2. That might be tough to do on a blog commentary open to all net users with no ID required. For all we know, you might be Salman's brother or a member of some Islamic propaganda group.

Letter from U2's Bono to Junoon's Salman!



Salman,

Just wanted to write you a quick note to say how much we here in the rest of the musical world appreciate what you are doing in your own region for peace. Peace is not an abstract ideal; it’s a concrete thing, brought about by many compromises. Compromise is a word we should cherish. We should embody it, sing it, run it up the flagpoles, chase down the road after it. It’s a psychological state as important as statehood itself. You’re a great man.

Your fan,
Bono

source: www.junoon.com

Frank, what exactly makes you an expert on the Germans or their economy in the 60's?

And yes, I will condemn all Nazis and KKK's for their atrocities, but not their faith.

Frank, for most people when you insult and ridicule them, you attack them.

Jeez Louise, don't you know when enough is enough?

Jack, I differ with your statement. It should say, for an Islamic Extremist......

I grew up in Germany. In the early sixties, the economy started booming. Soon Germany invited guest workers from poorer nations around her to fill jobs Germans no longer wanted to do.

Many came from Turkey, a decidedly Muslim country. Yes, their lifestyle was different from mainstream Germany, but none desired to die, either in suicide death or otherwise.

I think many Americans do not understand that Islam is not only a religion, but a lifestyle, a pretty poor lifestyle in many cases. You can not condemn entire mainstream Islamic countries for the acts of a few. I also do not belief the killing is being done in the name of Islam, but rather in the name of "I am stronger and I will show you! You WILL believe as I do or you die!"

That is really the crux of the matter. There are oppressors and there are the oppressed. In most cases, it has more to do with powerstruggle than ideology!

While I condemn Islamic extremists, I will not condemn all Muslim for their faith.

paganplace:

Thanks for the Reuters link. Its lead story backs up my earlier post.

- Suicide bombers attacked foreign troops in central and southern Afghanistan on Friday, killing five children and a Dutch soldier in a day of renewed bloodshed.

Four adult civilians were also killed and seven wounded, local police chief Mohammad Qasim added.

For an Islamist -death is desired and sought.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSKLR9196620070615

And, Frank, maybe you still just can't get my initial point that you've been attacking me for: answering hate for hate, blindly attacking all Muslims or anything they say, ...this does not *help.*

Obviously 'Islam' doesn't have a leg to stand on as 'Moral high ground' goes, ...but neither does Christianity.

America's pretty much lost that, now, too, thanks to people getting suckered into their baser instincts and conservative 'faith-based' policies.

I'm about done with that, too. Frank's refusal to listen to what I say, so he can say I think something I don't, has just been constant, abusive language, not only toward Muslims, but my own religion, which frankly, he knows nothing about, preferring his own prejudices to the reality.

Frankly, he misconstrues my statements, and has a severe problem either with reading comprehension, intellectual honesty, or both.

You can't solve the problems of extremism by becoming extremist, yourself. Clearly, the man would seem to have chosen a side in an unproductive way:

Here's an article on the subject, which just happens to have come up:

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2007-06-13T224549Z_01_N13366859_RTRUKOC_0_US-SECURITY-USA-EXTREMISM.xml&pageNumber=0&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage2

Hopefully, those tempted to such views as Frank espouses, which offer no solutions, only more hatred and polarization, will at least have seen demonstrated that these are the views of an Internet troll, not someone seriously concerned for helping the world.

"why cant you tell me the difference between a moderate or progressive islamic and a run of the mill islamic?"

Frank, you moron, look at the top of this page. There is a moderate Muslim.

Has it ever occured to you to try and engage with someone like him instead of getting all hysterical about the terrorists and immediately launching into this ridiculous display of link-posting? You think no one else is aware of how bad the Taliban and Al Qaeda are?

The problem here is that you cannot separate your legitimate fear of the extremists from the rather innocuous post of Salman Ahmed; you didn't try to find out anything about him or what else he might believe, you just jumped right into full terror mode. If you really want to know the difference between a progressive Muslim and your Bogeyman version try talking to one instead of shutting down the boards with your cut and paste nonsense.

You're a pathetic little coward, really, so paralyzed by your fear you can't see the person in front of you. I pity you, Frank, I truly do.

The Killings of Non-Muslims is Legitimate? Thats yesterday's news..

With the pandemic of Muslim- on-Muslim slaughter in Darfur, Iraq, Pakistan, Afganistan, Gaza and a dozen other hot spots: it appears the thing that truly incites an Islamist isn't Muslim suffering (which they are more than willing to inflict themselves), but the relatively tiny fraction of violence that jihadi propagandists and their western apologists can lay at the feet of Jews and Christians.

Muslim blood apparently comes very, very cheap --but only when it's drawn by other Muslims.

OK, I'm going to stop feeding the troll now; so long Frank; I hope your hatred keeps you warm at night.

Frank, you pinhead, what do any of those links have to do with the author of this post or what he said? No one here is defending the extremists.

I could produce long lists of historical (and recent) Christian atrocities, Biblical passages mandating death to unbelievers, advocating the oppression of women and sanctioning slavery and speeches and sermons by everyone from Martin Luther to Torquemada to Ian Paisley or Fred Phelps calling for violence against the Jews, Witches, Muslims, unbelievers and the "wrong" sort of Christians. So what? The Christians I meet here and in my daily life generally don't embrace such attitudes, and likewise neither do the Muslims I meet.

Frank,

I didn't say I agreed with you. But, if you were a little less hostile and more open to dialogue, I might actually detract my troll statement.

Paganplace is not a he, it's a she, and a very well spoken she. She has explained to you, in detail, many times why wiccans can not form a circle to chant the evil away. Every action has a reaction and as a wiccan you can not force others into something they are not. Not can they chant global warming away. They are not allowed to mess with nature. How do you know, if they did your bidding, that something much more terrible than global warning is to happen.

So, you old curmudgeon, try to bite you tongue every now and then!

Peace

You have a double standard, Frank and CCNL; you insist that all Muslims must answer for the crimes of the extremists, but you make no such demand on Christians. You insist that the Koran must be read literally (and then cherry-pick isolated quotes and apply your own interpretation to them) but resort to parsing, arguments about context, metaphor and mythology to excuse similar (and worse) passages in the Bible.

I could google my way through sites like this one: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/2b62a1f5e94cbbbd
and cut and paste long lists of examples of Christian violence and violent Biblical scriptures, too. Would such a pointless exersize convince you that all Christians embrace the teachings of Fred Phelps or Ian Paisley? Of course not. So why do you think your moronic cut and paste comments prove all Muslims embrace the most radical interpretations of Islam? Or that anyone outside of your own fevered imagination embraces the version of Islam you have invented for your Bogeyman?

My advice to you is to save your outrage for the real extremists (sadly there are enough of them out there, and not just the Islamic variety) and when you encounter a peaceful, moderate, rational Muslim, like the author of this post, take them at their word instead of accusing them of being like the terrorists. You'll look less like an ignorant extremist yourself that way...

Regards

A Hermit

Frank,

"SO IM A BAD GUY FOR POINTOUT WHAT ISLAM SAYS AND WHAT ISLAM DOES AND WHAT ISLAM DEMANDS - and islam is allowed to lie to anyone to pretend they dont say and do what they say and do."

You are the bad guy not because you point out, but because you are a ranting, raving troll who belittles everyone and everything you don't agree with.

GARYD,

Apparently you have not read any of the books written by the three On Faith NT scholars/professors. "Googlizing"/"Gabrielizing" has its limits. And you are a professor of what??

They cleansed nothing and got little right in their zeal to rid themselves of scripture they found personally objectionable they merely demostrated a lack of understanding and a refusal to accept the word of God for what it is.

I just hope God brings Mr Crossan to repentance before he dies for the absolute worst parts of Hell are reserved for those that put lies in the mouth of God.

Again and again, it is all about the Book of Death aka koran. Remove the milataristic and anti-female passages and add support for global freedom of religion. Problem solved!!!!

NT scholars like the On Faith panelists, Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen have cleansed the NT.

And the OT is basically on the myth pile.

Wouldn't hurt to preface your links or ...pick a name, Anonymous, if you want your finger pulled. :)

Paganplace:

Learn more about Islam:

http://www.radioislam.org/islamj/english/islam.htm

My point exactly, Frank.

Exactly what do you think I've been duped *into?*

Failure to have my life and psyche revolve around hating Muslims or in fact any other non-Christian ...or person who might have some *perspective* on the issues of how a global community might better live together?

As I've said repeatedly, you call me a 'fraud' based on... your idea that you don't think I can do what you *say* I think I can do.

To wit, what's in your head.

"but what difference would it make?"

That, Frank, ('whichever' Frank I'm talking to now,) has *always been the question i've been asking you.

You seem to have a fundamental inability to distinguish between systems, groups, peoples, and individuals. Or to process any new information in a way that doesn't plug directly into your idea of 'Ally/Enemy.'

It seems beyond your comprehension that someone could say, 'I refuse to hate these people,' while also saying, 'I'll resist the oppressions of this system if and to the extent it happens to come to be my *business.*

As an American, I see little difference between the Islam you hate so blindly, and the Christian extremism and politics you won't see questioned, even to the extent, apparently, that you must call Pagans 'Islamics' or all the other things you say, because we refuse to play that game that way.

It's your inability to hear any different, Frank, that would seem to be the difficulty, whoever's wearing the name. Maybe the real world is too chaotic and uncertain for you, and you expend a great deal of mental energy trying to make it simple.

Same character.

I ask *you.*

What difference does it make?

Gaby, You are openminded and it is good to see things in a different manner. America has long been home to Islam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guvzGVIEJKk

Islam in America:

1178 A Chinese document known as the Sung Document records the voyage of Muslim sailors to a land known as Mu-Lan-pi (America).

1310 Abu Bakri (Abu Bakar), a Muslim king of the Malian Empire, spearheads a series of sea voyages to the New World.

1312 Mandinga, African Muslims, from Mali and other parts of West Africa arrive in the Gulf of Mexico for exploration of America's interior using the Mississippi River as their access rout.

1527 A Muslim from Morocco by the name of Estevanico of Azamor lands in Florida with the expedition of Panfilo de Narveaz and remains in America to become the first of three Americans to cross the continent in 1539.

1530 More than 30% of the estimated 10 million African slaves, uprooted from the areas of Fulas, "Fula Jallon", "Fula Toro", and "Massina" as well as other areas of "West Africa" governed from their capital "Timbuktu", that arrived in America during the slave trade of that time and sent to Mexico, Cuba, and South America were Muslims, they and became part of the backbone of the American economy of that period.

If you studied history, you know this.

frank: what you makes you the arbiter of what a "true muslim" must believe? Isn't that just a little arrogant on your part?

Why do assume that "true muslims" must accept the most radical examples of Islamic thought? Should we apply the same standard to Christians and argue that anyone who doesn't embrace the vile opinions of Fred Phelps or celebrate the bloodiest passages in the Bible as literal truths isn't a "true Christian?"

You know I could do a Google search and post long lists of historical and recent Christian atrocities (Rwanda was "the most Christian Nation in Africa", the Jasenovic concentration camp was run by Catholic monks, the Tripura terrorists are affiliated with the Baptist Church...etc. etc.) Would you take that as a legitimate basis for declaring all Christians to be practitioners of a vile, violent and evil cult?

You're a hypocrite, a liar and a bigot, Frank. Deal with it.

Well, Anonymous, I have to side with A Hermit. His site is much more reputable than yours.

Yours is an Islamic site only, while Hermit's covers all Major World Religions and all Major Branches of Major World Religions.

Sorry, you lose.

You are wrong. This cames from bostonnow. We have a new mosque in Boston.

http://bostonnow.com/community/blogs/askmuslims/2007/06/07/islam-misunderstood-throughout-the-world/

According to anonymous bigot above; "More Muslims live in America today than all the Presbyterians and Episcopalians put together."

This is, to put it kindly, a lie.

There are almost 8 million Presbyterians and nearly 5 million Episcopalians in the United States, and less than 2 million Muslims.

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html

You can put your fears of a Muslim takeover of America away, I think...but then who would have to hate?

Poet is right. Wherever one looks, Islam is on the move.

More Muslims live in America today than all the Presbyterians and Episcopalians put together.

There are more than 1,200 mosques in the United States and 1000 mosques in England, where the Muslim community has established its own national parliament.

to SECULAR:

"how does it explain that Islam spread so quickly in 100 years"
well islam is also the fastest growing religion in the U.S. but i dont see any sword weilding muslims in my neighborhood:)

To JHByer: Thanks for the post. Actually Jesus predicted the coming of the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Triune, Triumphant God so to speak not a human being. Actually islam does teach that Jesus lied because He did flat out say that He was God, you can pretty up a lie all you want but it is still a lie, satan is very good at lying he has been at it a long time. Some people seem to think that a lie is a lie only if it is 100% false, well they are the easier ones to spot, but something that is 99% true is still a lie. Jesus also said that "My Kingdom is not of this world", He also promised us new heavens and a new earth or something to that effect, exactly what that is, I don't know but that is what the Kingdom of God is going to be and not only is it going to be all inclusive but it will be better than anything I or anyone else could possible think of, it will be totally permeated with Love though considering that God is Love, Love and God are one and the same. I'm just a messenger though, the Old Testament Moses said I would be here and I tell the whole world it was quite a shock to find out that I am who I am. Jesus is "I Am Who Am' there is a huge difference between the two statements. Jesus was just as human as the rest of us but He was also God Incarnate, hard to believe but it is true, anybody that can turn Himself into a chunk of bread has my vote. By the way when the Holy Spirit came into my body on 1-29-2000 He revealed to me that Jesus is present in the Catholic Eucharist that happened at St. Luke's Church in Ocean City, Md. On 1-28-2000 God the Father came into my heart and you know what, He didn't say a word, He didn't have too. God is so much nicer than you would ever imagine by listening to what a lot of so called christian would have you think by what they say. As I have said before God is a searcher of hearts and minds not religious affiliations or lack thereof. True religion is taking care of widows and orphans which is basically all of us taking care of each other. Take Care, Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

TomH-

I'm so happy there are Christians like you. You, at the least, see "love thy neighbor as thyself" as achievable. Blessed Be.

A couple of anti-semites on this site love to berate the stupidities and outrageous statements found in the Talmud. Yes, the Talmud contains some evil statements. They stem from the frustration of Jewish scholars in the early AD period who were appalled, as well they might be, at the successs of the Christian hoax. This does not excuse their nastiness, but these comments are relatively few and far between compared to the vitriol directed by Christian theologians for 1950 years against the Jews, vitriol which led to the Holocaust. The Talmud, as bad as it is, never led to murder. The Talmud is not as murderous as the Gospels.

If you compared the history of minorities under Islam to the history of minorities under Christianity there would be no contest. Christians behaved with more barbarous cruelty towards Jews, Muslims, and Christian dissidents than Muslims ever behaved towards Christians, Jews, or Muslim dissidents.

It is only with the secularization of Christian populations that they seem more tolerant than Muslims who have remained to a larger extent in medieval conditions.

In truth all the so-called Abrahamic religious are in essence intolerant and murderous -- when they have had the chance.

Nice post "A hermit".

anyone with a sense of fairness would agree with you.

The TALMUD is much more evil and ANTI-SEMITIC then the koran.

The Talmud teaches much filth.

Here is a link for those who wish to learn truth...

America under the Talmud, will it work?

http://www.come-and-hear.com/navigate.html

Nice post "A hermit".

anyone with a sense of fairness would agree with you.

The TALMUD is much more evil and ANTI-SEMITIC then the koran.

The Talmud teaches much filth.

Here is a link for those who wish to learn truth...

America under the Talmud, will it work?

http://www.come-and-hear.com/navigate.html

Nice post "A hermit".

anyone with a sense of fairness would agree with you.

The TALMUD is much more evil and ANTI-SEMITIC then the koran.

The Talmud teaches much filth.

Here is a link for those who wish to learn truth...

America under the Talmud, will it work?

http://www.come-and-hear.com/navigate.html]

I think Ghandi's words that one's personal morality must overrule any religious doctrine that is murderous, violent or otherwise demeaning to mankind is key.

Most followers of the major faiths agree with this practice today.

Some hundreds of years ago some Christains were taught otherwise, to hate Jews and Muslims (if not others). Today's Christains almost all disagree with those acts and are ashamed.

Today there are a few Muslims who are teaching hate. They, too, are wrong. This not the fault of the Quran and the Bible; it is an example of sin in men.

We must all stand up and defeat hate, whether from Christians or Muslims. The alternative is to give our world to satan.

gregg; "TALMUD" may be the only one attacking the Jews, but the unreasoning hatred toward all Muslims demonstrated by Frank C, "anonymous" and others in these threads is no different. If it acts likes a Nazi, I call it a Nazi.

Again, not because I have any particular affinity for Islam, I've just been around long enough to learn that fear and ignorance go hand in hand with hatred, and that attacking one person for someone else's sins just perpetuates the problem.

Regards

A Hermit

Frank collins attempts to defend himself, saying:

"would anyone deny that the promotion of any group or organization, even if it calls itself a religion, or a political party, is vile and offensive - if the stated goals of that group consists of hating all jews, christians, hindu's, pagans, or anyone not of that group..."

The only people in this thread who fit that description are the antisemitic "talmud" commenter and you, Frank. Do you honestly think all Muslims fit into the same pigeonhole as the radical Islamists?! There are more than a billion Muslims in the world; to condemn them all for Osama's crimes is like condemning all Christians for the crimes of the IRA, or the Provos, or the Rwandan genociders, or the Tripura Liberation Front terrorists, or the Serbians who massacred 7,000 Muslims at Srebrinica, or the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda or...well, you get the picture.

I could go through the Bible and cherry pick passages that make it sound awfully bloodthirsty, too, or quote you speeches by Ian Paisley or Fred Phelps or Charles Taylor or other "Christian" leaders which are full of hatred and violence. But I'm sure you'd agree that to judge all Christians by their words and actions would be wrong.

Try dealing with the individual people you meet, instead of cringing in fear behind your stereotypes. You might learn something.

Regards

A Hermit

So why do you insist on jumping all over every Muslim here as if they are guilty of the crimes of the extremists? Like any Nazi you have chosen to take a whole group of people and label them "evil" so you can project your own fear, ignorance and hatred on them.

POet seems to be selling a yarn about how tolerant Islam has been. He does not give reasons why the Crusades were undertaken. How is it that a religion which was born in 7th century arabia spread like wild fire in less than 100 years needs explaining. It did not spread because every one saw the brilliant light in its teachings. It was spread by sowred. My statement earlier still holds

Frank collins:
The Muslim affirmation of faith is: "THERE IS NO GOD.... BUT GOD, (AND MUHAMMAD IS HIS PROPHET)

actually it says there is no god but allah - this is another way islamics try to fool us. they pretend that their god is the god of the old and new testament, when the god of islam has specifically declared war on the people of the old and new testaments.

He's not trying to fool anybody,In Jordan,Palestine Lebanon,Syria the Christians who speak arabic refer
to God as Allah.

:PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE:

No more cut and paste. Its too long and NO ONE reads it. It just gobbles up space.

If my religion depended on messages from mythical angels, I would have signficant doubts about said religion.

It turns out the angels of Mormonism ("angel" Moroni), Islam ("angel" Gabriel) and Christianity ("angels Gabriel and "no-name" dream talkers) serve as the "foundation"/conduits to God of said religions making faith in these faiths very troubling.

a muslim / christian history lesson

Muslim-Christian Relations, The Good, the Bad
By Sound Vision Staff Writer
There were great times and there were the bad ones.

Tolerance, respect and cooperation some times. Murder, intolerance and hostility on other occasions.

These have been some of the defining features of Muslim-Christian relations throughout history. Here are some examples of the good and the bad.

First the good memories:

1. Habasha and the Negus

It was a Christian king in a predominantly Christian land who gave the small, persecuted community of early Muslims in the beginning of the Prophet Muhammad's mission protection. May Allah's peace and blessings be upon the Prophet.

The Muslims sought refuge in Habasha, modern day Ethiopia, after suffering starvation and torture at the hands of the polytheistic Makkans. The Prophet Muhammad said about the Negus and Habasha: "a king rules without injustice, a land of truthfulness."

Muslims were welcomed, protected and lived in peace with the Christians of Habasha. But this did not sit well with the Makkans, who did not want to see them leave Makkah or want the message of Islam to flourish in peace.They spent special envoys with gifts and lies about the Muslims to convince the Negus to send the Muslims back to Makkah. They told the Negus that this "new" faith took pride in insulting not just ancestral Makkan beliefs, but the beliefs of Christians as well.

Another king may have simply taken their word and automatically kicked the Muslims out. The Negus did not. He ordered that the leader of the Muslim community come to his court and explain Islam's position.

Enter Jafar ibn Abu Talib, early Muslim refugee to Habasha, and cousin of the Prophet.

Not only did he eloquently explain the message of Islam and the persecution of those who accepted this truthful message. He also recited the opening verses of Surah 19 of the Quran, Surah Maryam or Mary, after the Negus asked him to recite part of Quran.

King Negus listened to the recitation of the Quran in focused attention. He cried as he listened, so much so that his beard got wet. When Jafar completed the recitation, Negus said, ‘Surely this Revelation and the Revelation of Jesus were from the same Source.' Then to the two Makkan ambassadors, he said, 'By God, I will not hand over these persons to you.'

But the story does not end here. The Makkans would not give up so easily. They asked the king to find out what the Muslims' view of Jesus and his Divinity were, knowing of course, the difference in the Christian and Muslim positions regarding Jesus.

Again, Jafar responded, with no compromise of principles, just the simple, clear Truth:

'He (Jesus) is God's servant and Messenger; a spirit and a word from God that He bestowed on the Virgin Mary.'

Upon hearing this, Negus picked up a straw from the ground and said:

‘By God, Jesus was not even as much as one straw more than what you have said about him.'

He returned the gifts of the Quraysh. Negus told them he was not used to taking bribes and the Muslims would remain under his protection.

This was an early victory for positive Muslim-Christian relations.

2. Umar ibn al-Khattab and Jerusalem

Jerusalem and its surrounding territory were and remain holy to Muslims, Christians and Jews. It was during the Caliphate of Omar ibn al-Khattab that Muslims first gained leadership of this territory. May Allah be pleased with Omar.

The Muslim reaction to this victory is something to remember.

Omar entered Jerusalem in humility. He walked in with not he, the Caliph, but his servant comfortably riding on a camel. They had been taking turns walking and riding.

At one point in Jerusalem, the Christians asked him to pray in their church but he declined. He said he was afraid that in the future Muslims could use this as an excuse to take over the Church to build a Masjid.

The Christians gave the key of the Church of Resurrection to Muslims to be responsible for its safety. This key is still with the Muslims today as a sign and symbol of the mutual trust.

3. Saladin (Salah el Deen Ayyubi) and the Crusades

It was in response to the horrific oppression in Jerusalem at the hands of the Crusaders in the 11th century and the need to free the area of their control that Sultan Salah el Deen Ayyubi (Saladin) liberated Jerusalem from them in 1187.

His arrival brought relief for the local Christian population, who helped him, after the oppression they suffered at the hands of their co-religionists, the Crusaders.

Not only did Saladin treat the Crusaders with kindness, he ensured that Muslims and non-Muslims lived in peace and harmony with each other.

One particular story about him recounts that some Muslim soldiers were besieging a Christian fortress. Many Christians were seeking shelter inside, including a young couple who was planning to get married, but whose plans had been stopped by the fighting. They decided to get married anyway, even though they were trapped inside the castle.

Saladin was in charge of the Muslim troops at this time. When he heard about the wedding, he ordered his soldiers not to attack the castle where the couple was staying, so that they could enjoy peace and quiet. In return for this respect, the bride's mother sent out trays of food for Saladin and the Muslim army to share in the wedding celebrations.

Indeed the longest period of peace and justice for all in Jerusalem has been the period when Muslims were in control.

Now the bad news

1. The Crusades

During the Crusades (1095 until 1291) European Christians attacked and occupied this Holy land. They oppressed the Muslims, the local Christians and the Jews. These Crusaders killed over 200,000 innocent civilians.

The aim: to wrest control of Jerusalem from the Muslims. This was not only a period of bloodshed, hostility and violence. It was also the beginning of collective Western stereotypes of Islam and Muslims, according to some scholars.

The Crusades ended centuries ago. But today, the remnants of those stereotypes have taken on new meaning. Muslims are still bloodthirsty, violent savages by most of the mainstream media's standard. The propagation of these views on the collective level through the media has affected Muslims globally and locally. Muslims in America, while living peacefully with Christians and other religious groups, are still subject to discrimination in varying degrees, and physical violence and harassment in the worst cases.

While the Crusades were bad news for Muslims and even local Christians living alongside them, one significant outcome of this contact between Muslims and Western Christians was the passage of knowledge from one to the other.

Christians, through the Muslims, were able to access texts like those of Aristotle, for instance. The Muslims clearly passed on an intellectual heritage, which a number of scholars say laid the foundations for the modern Christian West. For more discussion of this, please see the book " Islam and the Discovery of Freedom by Rose Wilder Lane.

2. Muslim Spain versus Christian Spain

Many Muslims look back at Muslim Spain with pride. But Jews also call it their "golden era".

Spain became part of the Islamic world at the beginning of the eighth century. Under Muslims, Spain became the center of civilization. Although many local Spaniards embraced Islam, Christians and Jews were free in all aspects of their lives. The Muslims respected their religion and institutions. The result was the birth of the first true cosmopolitan culture in the West.

Christians studied alongside Muslim scholars to such a degree that in 854, a Christian named Alvaro of Cordoba complained that these students were forgetting their own religion and culture.

The Muslims and Christians of Spain did not live in their ghettos, isolated and not cooperating in various aspects of daily life together.

It was in Spain that Aristotle's works on physics and natural history were translated into Arabic from Greek. Historians generally acknowledge that the Muslim world proved to be a major conduit of ancient scholarship into the West, especially through Muslim Spain.

It wasn't just Muslims and Christians who thrived in Spain, though. Jews, who were reviled and hated elsewhere, were not only living safely and peacefully alongside non-Jews in Muslim Spain, they were learning and contributing to its culture and knowledge which Muslim scholars had established.

But this success in wealth, knowledge and co-existence came to end in a violent and very sad way.

As Christian Crusaders of Spain expelled Muslims, civilization that took centuries to build was destroyed. Muslims and Jews were either expelled or forced to convert to Christianity. Millions died as tolerance was replaced by the Spanish Inquisition. A suspected Muslim was to be killed for the smallest act resembling Islamic tradition - such as taking a bath on Friday.

3. European colonialism (1500s to the early 20th century)

European colonialism was such a powerful force that by 1900, 90.4 percent of Africa was under European or American colonial control. This was a political and economic phenomenon that began in the 1500s. Various European nations "discovered", conquered, and exploited large areas of the world.

In a quest for silk, spices and world domination, European explorers, like Christopher Columbus set out to sea. He ended up in North America. The result: the slaughter and destruction of millions of Natives and the usurpation of their land by Europeans.

In Muslim lands, colonialists wreaked havoc, supplanting Islamic educational systems with secular or Christianity-focused ones, and murdering and/or enslaving the natives of Africa, South Asia and the Middle East, for example.

They also acculturated the "savage" natives to the "refined" customs of Europe. In the Indian subcontinent today, the term "Brown Sahib" is used to refer to a native who is mentally colonized by the West. There are similar stock characters in other Muslim cultures.

4. Armenia-slaughter at the hands of Muslims, early 20th century

The predominantly Christian Armenians consider the greatest disaster in their history to be their murder and deportation from Turkey during World War I.

In 1915 as Turkish Armenians aligned with the pro-Christian Tsarist Russian enemy, the Turkish army reacted strongly against this betrayal. Although, according to Encyclopedia Britannica, statistics are disputed regarding the Armenian population in Ottoman Anatolia at the outbreak of World War I and the number of Armenians killed during this deportation, a large number of Armenians died during this civil war.

Those Turkish Armenians who survived migrated to places like predominantly Muslim Lebanon and Syria, as well as Russia, France, and the United States.

5. Current relations between the Muslims and Christians

Today 70% of all refugees in the world are Muslims. To Muslims, many of these refugees and other conflicts are a result of their powerlessness.

Muslims feel culturally enslaved, in many ways to the predominantly Christian West. The United States, with the new geopolitical reality of uni-polar world, continues to dictate policies to smaller nations of the world.

This new form of colonialism is done with the help of local lackeys in Muslim countries who take their orders about how their countries should be run from Washington, D.C. as opposed to locally.

On a larger level, British, French, American and Russian colonial powers (all Western, and all predominantly Christian) also control Muslim and other Third World countries through international institutions like the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund (IMF), and the Security Council of the United Nations.

This excessive power over the lives of millions is perceived by a number of Muslims as the continuing perpetuation of the colonial era. For most Muslims, colonialism is not about the spread of "refined European civilization". It is about massacre, slaver, and weakness. It is nothing to proudly look back upon.

The fight against tobacco

One example of modern American colonialism can be found in the fight against tobacco in the United States.

In the last eight years, the US tobacco industry has lost business because of public health awareness campaigns against smoking. But in the same period the industry has achieved the record profits. How?

They now have an open market to sell their deadly products to Third World consumers, thanks to the help of the American government. So cancer is bad for Americans, but it's okay for others. Where is the justice?

Despots and dictators: not in my backyard, but fine for yours

A second example of Western neo-colonialism is found in these countries' support for corrupt dictators, totalitarian despots and anti-democratic forces in the Muslim world. Muslims question how sincere the Western belief in justice and democracy really is when this happens.

For instance, the government of France supported the Algerian army when it canceled elections following the victory at the ballot of the Islamic Salvation Front party in 1992. France is the country famed for "liberty, equality and fraternity". It seems this is not what they had in mind for the Muslims in their former colonial baby, Algeria.

The United States, which touts "freedom and democracy" has similarly supported undemocratic regimes in Muslim and other countries. Justice, it seems, is not for all, especially not Muslims.

Muslim minorities in the West versus Christian minorities in Muslim countries

Both of these groups of minorities have been the brunt of stereotypical images in the local media, along with various forms of harassment. For example, several Masjids in America have been burned down and attacked as have chuches in Nigeria, Pakistan and Indonesia. Tribal clashes in Nigeria have taken on a religious color and a number of Christians have been murdered outside churches in Pakistan.

Muslims in Muslim countries must protect the rights of their Christian neighbors to freely practice their religion as well as their freedom of speech, as Prophet Mohamed (peace and blessings be upon him) and the rightly guided Khalifas after him did.The constitution the Prophet drafted in Madinah following his migration from Makkah enshrined the rights of Christians and Jews in the city, including those of worship. These were fully enforced under his leadership. Another example was when Umar ibn al-Khattab was Khalifah. He returned tax money collected from Christians in a town in modern day Iraq after he and the Muslims had to leave it. The taxes had been collected to ensure Muslim protection of the Christians living there. Since the Muslims could no longer do that, they returned the money.

Similarly, Christians in countries like America must stand up for Muslims' rights, especially those of free speech and freedom of religion. This way, both groups can build bridges of understanding and tolerance in a world currently fraught with violence, terror and destruction.

Still Some Examples of Cooperation:

But amid these examples of New World Order colonialism and tense Muslim-Christian relations, there are some bright spots.

In the 1990s, the West did eventually come to the aid of Muslims following massacres, rapes and the oppression of Muslims in Bosnia and Kosova.

On the level of faith, the 1994 United Nations Conference on Population in Cairo, Egypt, became a platform for Muslim and Catholic cooperation against perceived anti-religious bias.

In addition, it is somewhat ironic that while Muslims resent the Western support for dictatorships in their countries, they turn to the West when seeking to escape the oppression in their countries. For example, Iran's anti-Shah revolutionaries were essentially based in the West.

It is not uncommon to find Muslim refugees escaping to Germany, France, Britain, America and Canada. While many of them are economic migrants, seeking a better life for themselves and their families on a financial level, there are also those escaping political turmoil and corruption in their home countries.

The current situation

In September 2006, Pope Benedict XVI set off worldwide controversy while quoting Manuel II during a lecture at the University of Regensburg in Germany: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you
will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

The reaction was swift and strong from Muslims the world over. While Pakistan's parliament voted to condemn him, Lebanon's leading Shia leader asked for a personal apology. The deputy head of Turkey's governing party put him in the same category as Hitler and Mussolini. Unfortunately, two churches in Palestine were bombed and a nun in Somalia killed over the incident.

This was followed by an apology in which the Pope said he was "deeply sorry" about the angry repercussions of his comments, adding that the quotation was not an expression of his personal views.

The Pope's statement is being taken by Muslims as part of a continuity of Islamophobic statements made by high profile Christians like Franklin Graham, who has described Islam as a "very evil and wicked religion".

Although some mainstream churches opposed Graham's statement, most adopted a silent or neutral stance towards such false, anti-Islamic propaganda.

US President George Bush's use of the term "Islamic Fascism" in the current "war against terrorism," in addition to the ongoing war against Iraq continue to confirm the Muslim perception that the war is turning against them, despite President Bush's assurances to the contrary. First came the reference to the war as a "crusade," then the bombings of Afghanistan and Iraq, which killed more than 100,000 civilians. All of this added to America's existing image as a one-sided in reference to the Israeli occupation of Palestine.

In the US, Muslims are living in a virtual internment camp under a regime of fear. About a half a million Muslim Americans have been directly affected by the government policies although not a single Muslim American have been successfully convicted of terrorism so far. Four major charities in the US have been banned without due process of law. Muslims who gave millions of dollars to these charities to fulfill the third pillar of Islam, Zakat, in the month of Ramadan, lost all that money. The abuse of individual freedom, the media's ridicule of Islam and mockery of Muslim beliefs have led to such lawlessness in dealing with Muslims that one Jewish attorney of a Muslim client commented that, "Muslims have become the new Ni...rs of America."

Terrorism is a real threat. It must be dealt with in a proper and fair manner. If we could wait to try Timothy McVeigh with the due course of law, why not let these individuals and their organizations know what the charges are against them and allow them to defend themselves. It seems that a Christian terrorist has civil rights but a Muslim terrorist has none, although terrorists do not represent their faith. Otherwise they would not do things like this.

There have been several positive actions taken by our neighbors since September 11. A number of churches and their leaders have come forward in interfaith gatherings to show support and sympathy for the Muslims of America. The late Pope issued a call to Catholics worldwide to fast on the last Friday of Ramadan of 2002 in solidarity with Muslims. Some non-Muslim women have donned headscarves as a way of expressing sympathy for Muslim women too afraid to cover themselves in the backlash that followed the September 11 attacks.

More recently, a number of mainstream Christian groups have been at the forefront of the peace movement that opposed the war on Iraq, as well as the country's occupation by America. This is a very positive step forward, considering that churches did not oppose the Vietnam War until 10 years after it began, nor did Christian groups oppose the internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II, except for the Quakers.

In addition, amongst Christian groups, there has been a split in terms of war on Iraq. While most groups oppose the war, the more right-wing groups, like the evangelicals support it.

And so the cycle of positive and negative relations between Muslims and Christians continues. Muslims and Christians must continue to work together for peace and justice for all people. Muslims and Christians in America, especially, are in a unique position to do this and can serve as an example of peaceful coexistence of minorities the world over.

THE MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN JESUS...

ISLAM

1. Do Muslims believe he was a Messenger of One God? YES

Belief in all of the Prophets and Messengers of God is a fundamental article of faith in Islam. Thus, believing in Prophets Adam, Jesus, Moses, and Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them) is a requirement for anyone who calls him or herself a Muslim. A person claiming to be a Muslim who, for instance, denies the Messengership of Jesus, is not considered a Muslim.

The Quran says in reference to the status of Jesus as a Messenger:

"The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away; and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness, and they both ate food (as other mortals do). See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!" (Quran 5:75).

2. Do Muslims believe he was born of a Virgin Mother? YES

Like Christians, Muslims believe Mary, Maria in Spanish, or Maryam as she is called in Arabic, was a chaste, virgin woman, who miraculously gave birth to Jesus.

"Relate in the Book the story of Mary, when she withdrew from her family, to a place in the East. She screened herself from them; then We sent to her Our spirit (angel Gabriel) and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said: I seek refuge from you in God Most Gracious (come not near) if you do fear God. He said: Nay, I am only a Messenger from your Lord, to announce to you the gift of a pure son. She said: How shall I have a son, when no man has ever touched me, and I am not unchaste? He said: So it will be, your Lord says: ‘That is easy for Me; and We wish to appoint him as a sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It was a matter so decreed" (Quran 19:16-21).

3. Do Muslims believe Jesus had a miraculous birth? YES

The Quran says:

"She (Mary) said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.' He (God) said: ‘So (it will be) for God creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: ‘Be!'- and it is" (3:47).

It should also be noted about his birth that:

"Verily, the likeness of Jesus in God's Sight is the likeness of Adam. He (God) created him from dust, then (He) said to him: ‘Be!'-and he was" (Quran 3:59).

4. Do Muslims believe Jesus spoke in the cradle? YES

"Then she (Mary) pointed to him. They said: ‘How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' He (Jesus) said: ‘Verily! I am a slave of God, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet; " (19:29-30).

5. Do Muslims believe he performed miracles? YES

Muslims, like Christians believe Jesus performed miracles. But these were performed by the will and permission of God, Who has power and control over all things.

"Then will God say: ‘O Jesus the son of Mary! recount My favor to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit (the angel Gabriel) so that you did speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold: you make out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and you breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by My leave, and you heal those born blind, and the lepers by My leave. And behold! you bring forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the children of Israel from (violence to you) when you did show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic' (5:110).

6. Do Muslims believe in the Trinity? NO

Muslims believe in the Absolute Oneness of God, Who is a Supreme Being free of human limitations, needs and wants. He has no partners in His Divinity. He is the Creator of everything and is completely separate from His creation.

God says in the Quran regarding the Trinity:

"People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and attribute to God nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His command that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and in His Messengers, and do not say: ‘God is a Trinity.' Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. God is indeed just One God. Far be it from His glory that He should have a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. God is sufficient for a guardian" (Quran 4:171).

7. Do Muslims believe that Jesus was the son of God? NO

"Say: "God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!" (Quran 112:1-4).

The Quran also states:

"Such was Jesus, the son of Mary; it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of God, that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be' and it is" (Quran 19:34-35).

8. Do Muslims believe Jesus was killed on the cross then resurrected? NO

"“They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.” (Quran 4:156) “God lifted him up to His presence. God is Almighty, All-Wise” (Quran 4:157) .

CHRISTIANITY

1. Do Christians believe Jesus was a human being and Messenger of God? YES & NO

With the exception of Unitarian Christians, who like all the early followers of Jesus, still do not believe in the Trinity, most Christians now believe in the Divinity of Jesus, which is connected to the belief in Trinity. They say he is the second member of the Triune God, the Son of the first part of the Triune God, and at the same time "fully" God in every respect.

2. Do Christians believe he was born of a Virgin Mother? YES

A chaste and pious human woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ, the second member of the Trinity, the Son of God, and at the same time "fully" God Almighty in every respect.

Christians believe however, that while she was a virgin, she was married to a man named Joseph (Bible: Matthew:1:18). According to Matthew 1:25, Joseph "kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus".

3. Do Christians believe he had a miraculous birth? YES

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. When His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit" (Bible: Matthew 1:18)

4. Do Christians believe he performed miracles? YES

"And now, Lord, look upon their threats, and grant to thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness, while thou stretches out thy hand to heal, and sign and wonders are performed through the name of thy holy servant Jesus (Bible: Acts 4:30).

Christians believe that Jesus performed these miracles because he was the Son of God as well as the incarnation of God.

5. Do Christians believe in the Trinity? YES

With the exception of the Unitarian Christians, who do not believe in the Divinity of Christ, the Trinity, according to the Catholic encyclopedia, is the term used for the central doctrine of the Christian religion. The belief is that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three Persons or beings are distinct from each another, while being similar in character: uncreated and omnipotent.

The First Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Const., "De fide. cath.", iv). The First Vatican Council further defined that the Christian Faith contains mysteries strictly so called (can. 4). All theologians admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is of the number of these. The Catholic Encyclopedia notes that of all revealed truths, this is the most impenetrable to reason.

6. Do Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God? YES

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him (Bible: John 3:16).

However, it is interesting to note that the term "son of God" is used in other parts of the Bible to refer to Adam (Bible: Luke 3:38), Israel (Bible: Exodus 4:22) and David (Bible: Psalms 2:7) as well. The creatures of God are usually referred to in the Bible as children of God.

The role of Paul of Tarsus in shaping this belief and the belief in Trinity

The notion of Jesus as son of God is something that was established under the influence of Paul of Tarsus (originally named Saul), who had been an enemy of Jesus, but later changed course and joined the disciples after the departure of Jesus.

Later, however, he initiated a number of changes into early Christian teachings, in contradiction, for instance, to disciples like Barnabas, who believed in the Oneness of God and who had actually lived and met with Jesus.

Paul is considered by a number of Christian scholars to be the father of Christianity due to his additions of the following ideas:

that Jesus is the son of God,

the concept of Atonement,

the renunciation of the Law of the Torah.

Paul did these things in hopes of winning over the Gentiles (non-Jewish people). His letters are another of the primary sources of information on Jesus according to the Christian tradition.

The original followers of Prophet Jesus opposed these blatant misrepresentations of the message of Jesus. They struggled to reject the notion of the Divinity of Jesus for close to 200 years.

One person who was an original follower of Jesus was Barnabas. He was a Jew born in Cyrus and a successful preacher of the teachings of Jesus. Because of his closeness to Jesus, he was an important member of the small group of disciples in Jerusalem who had had gathered together following the disappearance of Jesus.

The question of Jesus's nature, origin and relationship with God was not raised amongst Barnabas and the small group of disciples. Jesus was considered a man miraculously endowed by God. Nothing in the words of Jesus or the events in his life led them to modify this view.

The Gospel of Barnabas was accepted as a Canonical Gospel in the Churches of Alexandria till 325 CE Iranaeus (130-200) wrote in support of pure monotheism and opposed Paul for injecting into Christianity doctrines of the pagan Roman religion and Platonic philosophy. He quoted extensively from the Gospel of Barnabas in support of his views. This indicates that the Gospel of Barnabas was in circulation in the first and second centuries of Christianity.

In 325 (CE), a council of Christian leaders met at Nicaea and made Paul's beliefs officially part of Christian doctrine. It also ordered that all original Gospels in Hebrew script which contradicted Paul's beliefs should be destroyed. An edict was issued that anyone in possession of these Gospels would be put to death.

The Gospel of Barnabas has miraculously survived though.

7. Do Christians believe he was killed on the cross? YES

This is a core Christian belief and it relates to the concept of atonement. According to this belief, Jesus died to save mankind from sin. However, this is not stated explicitly in the four gospels which form the primary source texts of Christianity. It is found, however, in Romans 6:8,9.

Christians believe Jesus was spat on, cut, humiliated, kicked, striped and finally hung up on the cross to endure a slow and painful death.

According, to Christian belief, the original sin of Adam and Eve of eating from the forbidden tree was so great that God could not forgive it by simply willing it, rather it was necessary to erase it with the blood of a sinless, innocent Jesus.

Resurrection

The four Gospels and the Epistles of St. Paul are the main sources of Christianity which discuss the Resurrection of Jesus after his crucifixion. According to St. Matthew, Jesus appeared to the holy women, and again on a mountain in Galilee. Mark's Gospel tells a different story: Jesus was seen by Mary Magdalene, by the two disciples at Emmaus, and the Eleven before his Ascension into heaven.

Luke's Gospel says Jesus walked with the disciples to Emmaus, appeared to Peter and to the assembled disciples in Jerusalem. In John's Gospel, Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene, to the ten Apostles on Easter Sunday, to the Eleven a week later, and to seven disciples at the Sea of Tiberias.

Another account of the resurrection by St. Paul is found in Bible: Corinthians 15: 3-8.

According to Christian belief, Resurrection is a manifestation of God's justice, Who exalted Christ to a life of glory, as Christ had humbled himself unto death (Phil., 2: 8-9). This event also completes the mystery of Christian salvation and redemption. The death of Jesus frees believers from sin, and with his resurrection, he restores to them the most important privileges lost by sin (Bible: Romans 4:25).

More importantly, the belief in the resurrection of Jesus indicates Christian acknowledgment of Christ as the immortal God, the cause of believers' own resurrection (Bible: I Corinthians 4: 21; Phil., 3:20-21), as well as the model and the support of a new life of grace (Bible: Romans 4: 4-6; 9-11).

MORE ON ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY

The other Ansar: Companions of Prophet Jesus
John the Baptist: A Prophet of Islam
Muslim-Christian Relations, The Good, the Bad

For further study of a Muslim view of Jesus and Christianity read the following books:
Jesus, Prophet of Islam by Muhammad 'Ata'ur-Rahim
For Christ Sake by Ahmad Thomson and Muhammad 'Ata'ur-Rahim

The Muslim Jesus (Rumi translated by coleman Barks)

IMAGINE A MAN SELLING HIS DONKEY TO BE WITH JESUS

NOW IMAGINE HIM SELLING JESUS/
TO GET A RIDE ON THE DONKEY/THIS DOES HAPPEN/

JESUS CAN TRANSFORM A DRUNK INTO GOLD/
IF THE DRUNK IS ALREADY GOLDEN/
HE CAN BE CHANGED TO PURE DIAMOND/
IF ALREADY THAT,HE CAN BECOME THE CIRCLING PLANETS,JUPITER,VENUS,THE MOON/

NEVER THINK THAT YOU ARE WORTHLESS/ALLAH HAS PAID AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT FOR YOU/AND THE GIFTS KEEP ARRIVING/

THERE IS SOMETHING IN US/
THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NIGHT AND DAY/
GRAPES THAT NEVER SAW A VINEYARD.

WE ARE ALL RETURNING/SAYS THE KORAN

ENJOY SHAMS,
OR IF YOU CANNOT DO THAT,AT LEAST/
CONSIDER WHAT HONEST PEOPLE TELL YOU

TO FRANK COLLINS:
Thankfully I have a life,otherwise I can quote a zillion examples of extremists within Christianity(cromwell,bush),Islam(osama,yazid),Hinduism (RSS the same people who killed Gandhi because they thought he was too weak a Hindu) ad infitum and argue that there is something inherently violent about Hinduism,Christianity,Islam which drives these people to violence.(Even the Kid in the Virginia tech killings compares his "sacrifice" to Jesus..)the kid was alienated,marginalised right?or did Jesus provoke him?

by the way Which box would you put Rumi in?He was a Muslim scholar/mystic/poet whose inspiration was Allah,the Koran and Mohammad and is expressed through beautiful inclusive,Love poetry which has made him one of the most popular poets in the West(800 years after his death)Which copy of the Koran was he reading back in the 13th century?
What about Saladin? Why did he let all the Christians go free after conquering Jerusalem?As a religious leader he too should've been compelled to slaughter in the name of Allah?Did you watch the Kingdom of Heaven with Orlando Bloom?

GANDHI ON RELIGION/ISLAM AND MUHAMMAD

Thus if I could not accept Christianity either as a perfect, or the greatest religion, neither was I then convinced of Hinduism being such. Hindu defects were pressingly visible to me. If untouchability could be a part of Hinduism, it could but be a rotten part or an excrescence. I could not understand the raison d'etre of a multitude of sects and castes. What was the meaning of saying that the Vedas were the inspired Word of God? If they were inspired, why not also the Bible and the Koran? As Christian friends were endeavouring to convert me, so were Muslim friends. Abdullah Sheth had kept on inducing me to study Islam, and of course he had always something to say regarding its beauty." (source: his autobiography)
"As soon as we lose the moral basis, we cease to be religious. There is no such thing as religion over-riding morality. Man, for instance, cannot be untruthful, cruel or incontinent and claim to have God on his side."
"The sayings of Muhammad are a treasure of wisdom, not only for Muslims but for all of mankind."
Later in his life when he was asked whether he was a Hindu, he replied:

"Yes I am. I am also a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Jew."

Thomas Baum, Islam teaches that Christians lied, not Jesus, or at best, Christians wrote his words down wrong. For example, Islam says Jesus predicted the coming of Mohammad NOT the coming of God's Kingdom on Earth. The Qu'ran is online in its forbidden English translation with much commentary to help you make sense of what appears to be a shameless theft of Judeo-Christian art. On top of the insult of sloppy plagiarism is the injurious framing of Jews and Christians as liars or dupes, which is no less galling to me, an atheist. Muslims today are not to blame, obviously, but Mohammad was, and to think the Danish cartoonists were forced to apology!

Ganndalf, Blind faith is a faith that asks no questions. Such a faith is fragile at best and questioning it by outsiders can quickly lead to violence.

The tendency of those without faith is to make the generalization that all faith is bad and that all religions are pretty much the same this is a false statement as most generalizations are.

It ignores the strong differentiation between theologies of works - the bulk of modern theologies - and those purely of Grace.

A practicioner of the latter is most unlikely to either engage in conversion by the sword since it is not he but God that saves nor is his belief threatened by an unbelief he knows must exist.

GANDALF THE GERY, your question threatens the status quo, or so it would seem, the answer not being taught in school, where children should be armed with it against deception. Reduction being the operative principle, modifiers that are true shrink the domain of a word. Modifiers that are meaningless and /or false act like IEDs. The difference between 'blind faith' and 'faith' is the former suggests there is a faith that isn't blind. You are wise to perceive that such a 'faith' is trying to pass for what it can't be. Thus the word blind is used to set up a contrast that doesn't exist. A sillier example is "Real men don't eat quiche." Well, if men aren't real, butter my buns and call me a biscuit. The effect of the word 'real' is to destroy the commonsense concrete meaning grounded in reality that men are those humans with a 'y' chromosome who have lived a certain number of years, whatever they eat. What's the difference between intelligent design and design? The former is made up, because design, being honest, won't pass itself off as a scientific alternative. And evidently the honesty of God's design precludes it from slipping under the Constitution. The simple truth means mathematically simple, ie. irreducible. Thanks for asking a great question.

GANDALF THE GERY, your question threatens the status quo, or so it would seem, the answer not being taught in school, where children should be armed with it against deception. Reduction being the operative principle, modifiers that are true shrink the domain of a word. Modifiers that are false are like IEDs on the road to symbolized reality. The difference between 'blind faith' and 'faith' is the former suggests there is a faith that isn't blind. You are wise to perceive that such a 'faith' is trying to pass for what it can't be. Thus the word blind is used to set up a contrast that doesn't exist. Another, sillier example is "Real men don't eat quiche." Well, if men aren't real, butter my buns and call me a biscuit. The effect of the word 'real' is to destroy the commonsense concrete meaning grounded in reality that men are those humans with a 'y' chromosome who have lived a certain number of years, whatever they eat. What's the difference between intelligent design and design? The former is made up, because design, being honest, won't pass itself off as a scientific alternative. And evidently the honesty of God's design is too much to slip under the Constitution. The simple truth means mathematically simple, ie. irreducible. Thanks for asking a great question.

First off, Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except thru Me". The god of islam says Jesus is a second-rate prophet behind Mohammad. If Jesus is telling the truth then the god of islam is lying. If Jesus is lying then why would the god of islam want a liar for a prophet. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"By "Nazis" I was referring to the "TALMUD" poster, Frank Collins, and this Halozcel character who jump in at every opportunity to denounce all Muslims as evil."

If you reread -you will see the only Nazi candidate is the anonymous antisemite "TALMUD = DOG VOMIT".

Gaby tracked down his posts to a fanatical pro-islamic site. So, I don't think he has been attacking Muslims.

Since you are A (self-admitted) HERMIT -I'll give you a pass.

gregg, By "Nazis" I was referring to the "TALMUD" poster, Frank Collins, and this Halozcel character who jump in at every opportunity to denounce all Muslims as evil. They have found their scapegoat and they're going to attack them at every opportunity, regardless of the topic or what their latest target may have actually said.

Now, I'm an atheist, and I have no more use for Muslim theology than for any other kind, but I recognize that faith means many things to different people, and not all of it is bad. This kind of kneejerk hatred is despicable no matter who it's directed at.

Regards

A Hermit

Secular, we referred to the post above yours!

Mr. Hermit:

"It's too bad the new Nazis show up every time someone from a non-Christian tradition tries to share their thoughts here."

If you mean "TALMUD = DOG VOMIT", he's been making the rounds of the Christian threads too.

It's too bad the new Nazis show up every time someone from a non-Christian tradition tries to share their thoughts here.

As an atheist I may not share your faith, but I appreciate your courage in posting in here and the compassion inherent in your comments, Salman. (As a fellow, if less talented, musician I also really appreciate your work.) Don't let the trolls get you down, they represent a tiny minority I believe.

Regards

A Hermit

Interesting NEWS for those who frequent online forums:

Global Islamic Media Front Instructs Islamists to Infiltrate Popular Non-Islamic Forums to Spread Pro-Islamic Propaganda

In a message titled "The Battar Media Raid: How to Participate? How to Help? What Is My Role?" the GIMF announces the beginning of the campaign and provides a detailed description of the campaign's goals and ways of accomplishing them, including infiltrating non-Islamic forums for the purpose of posting pro-ISI propaganda.

"You are not required to engage in blind copying and pasting here... [On the contrary,] you should select [carefully] the material... and the words... and the most important issue is to monitor forum members' reactions after you disseminate your material and to respond to them, turning for help to your comrades in the jihad forums if you find it difficult [to reply] to one of the reactions [from members of the non-Islamic forums]."

"[You should also offer] commentary to the various news agencies' websites... such as the Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiyya websites... Even if they do not publish your commentary... do not give up... Persist... in the attempt to place the name of the raid in every commentary..."

Baby: too much to handle, read your self here is the source from bible,

....(Deuteronomy)

(10) When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

(11) And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

(12) And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:

(13) And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

(14) But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy)

by the way there is not real bible up there, first version was written 300 years after ya.. 300 years after, so many stuff are there written by people not so inpired by god,,,who remember that long things... i even do not remember the girl i slept with last week..

any question ask me frankly.

"Can you feel the love today..."

One Frank Collins is too much to handle for this forum, now we have two!! Daaammn...

Hey guys I am not Frank or anyone else. I am a secular humanist, hence my pen name.

I see that Frank did not take my advice to end his life. Pity.

What the hell was that, now we have imposter Frank?

Why does WAPO put this crap about Faith, every day. So all these (so called panelists) clowns can pontificate. "Look at me, I have given my brain (mind) a sabbatical, so i can spew all the stupidity, my parents have stuffed in my head" We have Cal Thomas claiming the answer to the question is function of the thought behind the question. What kind of boat load of crap is that. All I have learnt is answer to a question should be invariant to the questioner, the clothes she wear, etc, etc. It only depends on the question.

You western secularists, just be vary of pious muslims. I dont think every muslim is a closet Jihadist. You look at all the societies, name me five countries that does not allow muslims to build mosques. then name me five muslim that allow non-muslim places of worship be built on their soil. let me tell ou something until these so called moderate muslims would step up and demand all the 47 OIC countries to allow the building of worship halls for non-muslim, their moderate protestation have no merit.

You all up there listen to this, that skinny guy died on the cross could not save his own life on the cross but he can save you. You can sleep around like me no problem with that except aids, my god has forgiven you before he died on the cross so basically now i have no god at all.

You hindus, buddhists, pagans or jews or atheists or gays going to hell anyway so why care have some fun till you bored then go to join army and to go "Iraqi crusades", try some target shooting Iraqis.

If you need some christianity advice go and find some convicted sex offender priest in your neighborhood for confession - they have direct authority to forgive you.

My terms of christianity is love, so to feel love you must hate everybody around you including your mother, family, neighbors specially muslims and pagans (there is no room for them on earth), atheists (just for being atheists) jews (they murdered my helpless god on the cross also they do not accept a human as god) hindus (because muslim empire did not convert them for 1200 years of rule in india, what a pity).

My version of christian morality is money, i run brothels and porno sites on the net, ya i am rich and i have guarantee of heaven.

Continuing the compulsion kick...

Let's not forget Abdul Rahman either.

Salman Ahmad, what gives? Are all these Muslims implicit in the issues that Halozcel, and myself to a much lesser extent, have raised not "true" Muslims?

To Frank: Good Grief! I am not fan of Islam by any stretch of the imagination and in fact I do believe that a large part of Islam's teachings are based in hatred, misogeny, and fear but I do NOT feel that all of the people who call themselves Muslims are terrorists and killers. As A.Thorn said, that is a terrible way to treat someone who is willing to openly discuss their faith.

To Anonymous: I don't even know what to say to your comment. I know many Jews and I don't believe any of them is required to commit "filthy acts" or "degenerate others to the upper most levels of nefarious conduct". I think the "TALMUD=PIG VOMIT" line is way, way out of bounds. You obviously do not know the meaning of civil discourse. Maybe you and Frank should go into a chat room and share your enlightened outlooks with each other and leave the rest of us out of it.

Wiccan-

Don't worry about me. I've been posting in an online forum for years before coming here. I'm used to being yelled at by people, and to arguing with people that don't know how to be civil.

Thanks for the warning though.

Gandalf asks:

"If you believe, can it really be called blind?"

I believe so, yes. If someone tells you that God exists, and if you follow the teachings of his son Jesus Christ that you will have eternal life, and you just accept it, I would call that blind faith.

To me, faith should be a continuing dialogue between you, whatever diety(ies) you believe in, and 'church' officials. Asking questions does not mean you have less faith, only that you want to know more about what it means to be a Christian/Pagan/Jew/Hindu/Muslim/Buddhist/etc.

Accepting something that someone else tells you without at least looking into it a bit yourself I think is a bad way to approach any religion. We wouldn't stand for it in real life or in science (and by real life here, I mean observations about the natural world), why should we stand for it in religion.

For example, let us say you have a small child. I walk up to this highly impressionable mind and tell it that the sky is green. Anyone who questions that the sky is green is wrong and is going to a bad place for their disbelief that the sky is green. What would you say to me? What would you want that child to do?

Accurate translation.
Muslim affirmation,''la ilaha illallah'' means
There is no deity..but Allah.
But,Allah was a Deity before islam as well.

There is no compulsion in religion(islam).No,there are many compulsions in islam.
First,Hijab,headscarf,veil,burqa.Women MUST cover their hairs.This is a compulsion.
Second,muslim MUST worship 150 times ia arabic language in a month.This is a compultion.Fasting is a compulsion too.
Third,jihad in 'Dar ul harb' is a compulsion.
Fourth,death penalty to apostate is a compulsion.
Fifth,prohibition of alcohal is a compulsion.
Sixth,cursing to non-muslim(2.161) is a conscience compulsion.

AND,AND,AND LINA JOY IS BEING ENFORCED TO LEAVE MALASIA.

I know what you mean, Gaby. Sure wish the two of them would get a room. ;-)

Wiccan,

You have it absolutely right about Frank.

I'll go a step further, he is nothing but a bigotted, small-minded, evil, little Troll.

Much like the Anonymous Jew hating Troll.

They do nothing but spread hatred and have not origianl thought of their own.

A. Thorn-

You seem like a reasonable person. Don't get drawn into a arguement with Frank. All he has is his hate. If you contradict any of his absurd statements, he will find a way to demonize or denigrate you. He has no doubt in his hated of Islam, actually his hatred of anything that does not agree with him. Trying to change his mind is a Sisyphean task. Just watch what he posts after he reads this! :-)

I just came across an interesting one-liner on another thread. Based on it, I have a question. Is it really possible to have so-called blind faith? If you believe, can it really be called blind? Is it possible to qualify "faith" with an adjective such as "blind" or "good" or "bad"?

Most religions have lot of goods and there may be few things which can be let go (or revised) and I doubt, for doing that any one would loose contact (if there was one) with God. What the followers (so called followers) need is slightly open and logical thinking. Some religion(s) tend to keep everything either as black box or God’s word.

I'm only pointing out that Frank's assertion that all Muslims believe in acting out the 'vile acts' is spurious at best. If someone is willing to come here and openly discuss their faith in Islam, then starting out by calling them a lier is a horrible way to treat them.

It is the TALMUD or modern day JUDAHISM that requires the most filthy acts and degenerates others to the upper most levels of nefarious conduct.

TALMUD = DOG VOMIT

To Frank,

What do you hate so much about people who are willing to set aside the 'bad' parts of the Quran and live by the good examples that it does provide? Not all Muslims are murderers. Most are just people trying to live life and try to find God by the best way they can see.

Modern Christians and Jews drop sections from the Bible and Torah just as much as many modern Muslims drop some of the more violent sections of the Quran. They should not be faulted for this.

This is a person willing to discuss what their faith means to them, and is obviously not a vile person. Can we not lump him in with Bin Laden, please?