One God, Many Views

One more post. Interesting information Frank. If I have time I will read about the crusades, since I know almost nothing about them.

If it means anything, it would not shock me or change my perspective entirely if I began to believe that Islam was worse than Christianity. I tend to keep my criticism of Christianity within, but to me saying Christianity is better than anything seems patently ridiculous. That is my bias, and another issue entirely. It comes from spending all of university learning hard science and philosophy of science. A course in animal behavior convinced me that religion is hierarchically imposed morality first and foremost. To me, the way for the US to move forward is to emphasize science in society, because, it seems to me, Christianity is no longer resulting in discipline or morality in our society. For a long time, science was linked with Christianity, and for many it can be a new source of truth and objectivity. That will not happen in my generation, I know.

I guess to a Christian, saying "Christianity is the same as Islam", which is in effect what I have been saying, is tantamount to saying to a scientist, "Science is a religion", which in the West is not true.

One reason I disagreed with you is that I think one of the functional purposes of religion in general is to cause distrust of the enemy. Supposedly, Christians should distrust Islamics, and Islamics should distrust Christians. Actually, maybe Christians should sometimes really distrust Islamics, because Islamics don't trust Christians, and.... it's game theory.

Anyway, everyone has been fairly nice here. It was a good debate and I actually learned some things. Perhaps I'll read more about the crusades. But I'll end my participation in this thread now.

zai jian

Since it is not trivial, let me reiterate. If the US lifted sanctions on Iraq and the oil market were to be liberalized, the US dollar might not be the currency of oil trade for much longer. If China had exclusive rights to portions of Iraqi oil fields, who knows what would happen.

Foreign oil companies are going to do whatever it takes to make a profit in Iraq, and they will attempt to obtain rights to and/or control over as much oil as they possibly can in Iraq.

We all know that oil prices are essentially controlled by the suppliers.

They sell it in US dollars, and foreign companies facilitate the deals.

"China had been waiting for the end of sanctions to begin work on the Al-Ahdab field in central Iraq, under a $1.3 billion contract signed in 1997 by its largest state-owned firm, China National Petroleum Corp. The field's production potential has been estimated at 90,000 barrels a day. China was also pursuing rights to a far bigger prize -- the Halfayah field, which could produce 300,000 barrels a day. Together, those two fields might have delivered quantities equivalent to 13 percent of China's current domestic production."

It is not a simple market.

The Saudi's sell oil to whomever can pay $60.00/barrel. Ditto for all oil producing countries like Mexico, Russia, Venezuela, Canada, Iran, Indonesia etc.

And the Axis of Evil countries are? Two down, one to go.

Data from the annual British Petroleum Energy Report: peak oil production in Iraq will occur in 2015, and the oil depletion midpoint will be in 2021. There are 115 gigabarrels of oil in Iraq. Iraq is one of the most promising oil producers in the world. Here we are talking about recoverable oil, not theoretical limits or undeveloped technologies (which don't seem to be coming to fruition any time soon).

Saudi Arabia is the juiciest oil country in the world. They are our closest allies in the middle east, after Israel. We have military bases there.

We are not sending troops to Darfur.

There are no plans to bring democracy to Iraq.

Isn't it clear?

CONCERNED,

The oil plan might have been a failure. I am still not convinced that it is a failure. I agree that now the objective is to stop the violence in Iraq. Otherwise, it will be a lot of trouble for the US.

The oil angle is not obvious to most of us, because the media feeds us questions about whether or not there will be democracy in Iraq. There is not a lot of talk about oil in Iraq on CNN. Initially, we were supposed to believe there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Maybe that wasn't totally unreasonable, but it still doesn't fully explain why we invaded Iraq, or why we cared about the region in the first place (why is Saudi Arabia one of our closest allies?).

One theory is that the US Dollar is at of being weakened. That may not sound so bad, with an artificially weak RMB, but it would be bad if the US Dollar was not used as the primary currency of oil trade.

Oil is scarce. Lots of American and western European companies profit by refining and shipping oil from the Middle East. Driving the price down is not on the top of the oil companies' list. The oil companies have a strong lobby.

"Philip Carroll, the former CEO of Shell Oil USA who took control of Iraq's oil production for the US Government a month after the invasion, stalled the sell-off scheme.

Mr Carroll told us he made it clear to Paul Bremer, the US occupation chief who arrived in Iraq in May 2003, that: "There was to be no privatisation of Iraqi oil resources or facilities while I was involved.""
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4354269.stm

That quote is from the BBC, which tends to have a slightly-to-the-left view. But the point is pretty clear. Unusually low oil prices are not on the agenda. Judging by recent events, oil production is hindered by the violence in Iraq.

But that is not the point. If the US succeeds in Iraq, the US will have access to a stable supply of oil for the next 30 years, from one of the largest oil reserves in the world. That is no joke, considering that the oil demand of the developing world is going to dwarf that of America and Western Europe in our lifetimes. Even if prices remain high, the US will have greater influence on Iraqi oil.

Why doesn't the US go to other countries? Well, where the US can, it will. However,

"There's an illusion that ownership ensures either volume or price," said William H. Overholt, director of the Rand Center for Asia-Pacific Policy in Santa Monica, Calif. "Oil is an internationally traded commodity. The key is having secure lines of supply from the Middle East."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/12/AR2005071201546.html

You also have to consider that the advantage of the developing world is cheap labor. High raw materials and energy costs will dilute their advantages in the world economy. Maximizing your future benefit is often a zero-sum game.

I don't think there is any single plan, but the above factors must have been considered.

Ben,

We are in Iraq to keep China from getting Iraqi oil? That is a new slant. China gets oil from all over the world so why are we not in these other countries?

IMHO, we are in Iraq to keep the Sunnis and Shiites from an all out civil war. Such a war would shut down oil supplies from the region crippling not only the US economy but the global economy as well. Iran, Kuwait, Jordan and Saudi Arabia and maybe even Israel would "duke" it out in a bloodbath we cannot afford to let happen.

And all over whose religious leaders have some direct "descendency" from one crazy hallucinating Arab named Mohammed. Talk about the idiocy of religion!!!!

CONCERNED

I agree with you completely. Actually, the worst people in the Middle East are the rulers - for instance the King of Saudi Arabia, a close ally of the United States. Additionally, muslim culture has not gone through the same changes as in the west - we eliminated public torture and execution, they still practice it. But it wasn't too long ago that the West eliminated this practice, and the muslims are no worse in this regard if you look at their entire history and compare it with that of the West. That is just one example, and I am not trying to say that public execution is particularly revealing. China still practiced it very recently. The best course of action is to understand, not to condemn.

Our intervention is not going to change Iraqi society. And really, Bush, Cheney, Rice, and friends did not decide to spent 1/2 trillion dollars to bring democracy to Iraq. They are of the school of thought that believes in working toward national interests, as they should be. The US is in Iraq in order to compete for oil - or at least to prevent other countries (China) from taking it and gaining a competitive advantage.

Really, if muslim countries were setting up military bases in Canada, I don't think most Americans would be too happy about it.

I'm not taking sides. I'm just trying to point out that if you push, you will get pushed back. I suppose it's not easy trying to run the world's sole superpower, and I don't think anyone is trying to argue to the contrary.

Screaming and shouting about how ugly or immoral you believe the enemy to be proves one thing: propaganda works. That is the objective view.

To reiterate:

Unfortunately, many contemporary Islamics live in countries that do not have freedom of religion, press and speech and therefore will never have the opportunity of real freedom. Such a shame!!! and so very, very dangerous.

FRANK

Did the victors eat the flesh of women an children in Germany? Was Christianity used as the defining motive of WW2 for the allies? No. We stopped fighting when the objective was reached, and it was one war where most people agree that it was not religiously based.

On the other hand, the crusades are a good example of "an eye for an eye", and then some. It was bloodthirsty.

I'm sorry I didn't criticize your last post even more in my last post. What an irrelevant example, and a dubious post.

By the way, slavery was not condemned in the bible. It is in fact regulated. The bible was used in the south to justify slavery. I guess you don't mind.

FRANK

What makes you think the muslims "lost"?

Do you feel sorry for the Jews who were slaughtered in Europe during the crusades?

I am saying that both Christianity and Islam are used to justify acts of aggression and oppression - nothing more and nothing less. It sounds like you are saying, "Yeah, so what? They started it!" So, are you admitting that it is true?

And Frank, so we get to pick and choose what's in the Bible? How about "Thou shalt...kill", or "Thou shalt...commit adultery". I think my neighbor's wife is BANGIN'!

Good for you, Frank, because I doubt that anyone in the universe gives a damn what you feel sorrow or pity for, but we certainly feel sorrow and pity for you.

Good for you, Frank, because I doubt that anyone in the universe gives a damn what you feel sorrow or pity for, but we certainly feel sorry and pity for you.

FRANK

Here is some copy and paste information about the Crusades. Normally I don't copy and paste, but you seem to like it... Enjoy!

June 28, 1098 Battle of Orontes: Following the Holy Lance "discovery" in Antioch, the Crusaders drive back a Turkish army under the command of Emir Kerboga, Attabeg of Mosul, sent to recapture the city. This battle is generally regarded as having been decided by morale because the Muslim army, split by internal dissent, numbers 75,000 strong but is defeated by a mere 15,000 tired and poorly equipped Crusaders.
August 01, 1098 Adhemar, Bishop of Le Puy and nominal leader of the First Crusade, dies during an epidemic. With this, Rome's direct control over the Crusade effectively ends.
December 11, 1098 Crusaders capture the city of M'arrat-an-Numan, a small city east of Antioch. According to reports, Crusaders are observed eating the flesh of both adults and children; as a consequence, the Franks would be labeled "cannibals" by Turkish historians.
January 13, 1099 Raymond of Toulouse leads the first contingents of Crusaders away from Antioch and towards Jerusalem. Bohemund disagrees with Raymond's plans and remains in Antioch with his own forces.
February, 1099 Raymond of Toulouse captures the Krak des Chevaliers, but he is forced to abandon it in order to continue his march to Jerusalem.
February 14, 1099 Raymond of Toulouse begins a siege of Arqah, but he would be forced to give up in April.

FRANK

Some researchers have recently suggested that we have evolved a religious sense because of the advantages of a hierarchically imposed morality. I don't believe there is a "God gene", but I do think religion is hierarchically imposed morality.

Consider that many Evangelical Christians believe that the United States has a mission to protect Israel (from the infidel muslims, I presume). Those Evangelical Christians were courted by the Republican party starting from the time of Bush senior. It was a deliberate and brilliant campaign by the Republican party. It worked.

Bush justified the invasion of Iraq as a gift to all of God's people. He even used the word 'crusade'. There are obvious political reasons for the current conflict in the Middle East. I won't ignore the militant Islamic groups, but you should certainly not ignore the fact that Iraq and Saudi Arabia have oil and that world oil demand is growing. I do not condemn Bush for his decisions. If I were president, I would have invaded Iran and Iraq even sooner than when Bush got around to it.

From the passages in the Qur'an that I have read, and from speaking with the several muslim friends (and ex-girlfriend) that I have, a muslim is to kill a non-muslim oppressor who is acting as the aggressor, especially in order to drive non-muslims from lands that were taken from muslims by non-muslims.

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression" (Qur'an 2:190-193)

I think the reason you find my rhetorical charm ineffective is that you are immune.

FRANK

If you are going to be critical of Islam, why don't you strictly apply the same criticism to Christianity?

Obviously most Christians no longer deem the following passage ethically correct:

"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the Lord your God has given you. But these instructions apply only to distant towns, not to the towns of nations nearby. As for the towns of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as a special possession, destroy every living thing in them. You must completely destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the Lord your God has commanded you. This will keep the people of the land from teaching you their detestable customs in the worship of their gods, which would cause you to sin deeply against the Lord your God." Deuteronomy 20:10-18 NLT

However, to be consistent, you should condemn Christians for internalizing the above passage, and distrust every claim to the contrary.

Fortunately, philosophers of the middle ages discovered Greek philosophy as a result of interaction with the Persians, and used it to re-define ideas such as the soul and the creator. A lot of the bible is quite un-"Christian", it seems to me.

GANDHI ON RELIGION

Thus if I could not accept Christianity either as a perfect, or the greatest religion, neither was I then convinced of Hinduism being such. Hindu defects were pressingly visible to me. If untouchability could be a part of Hinduism, it could but be a rotten part or an excrescence. I could not understand the raison d'etre of a multitude of sects and castes. What was the meaning of saying that the Vedas were the inspired Word of God? If they were inspired, why not also the Bible and the Koran? As Christian friends were endeavouring to convert me, so were Muslim friends. Abdullah Sheth had kept on inducing me to study Islam, and of course he had always something to say regarding its beauty." (source: his autobiography)
"As soon as we lose the moral basis, we cease to be religious. There is no such thing as religion over-riding morality. Man, for instance, cannot be untruthful, cruel or incontinent and claim to have God on his side."
"The sayings of Muhammad are a treasure of wisdom, not only for Muslims but for all of mankind."
Later in his life when he was asked whether he was a Hindu, he replied:

"Yes I am. I am also a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Jew."

The "Describe Mohammed" Poll is complete. And the top choice is:

1. Mohammed the Great Hallucinator Of Mythical Wingie Thingies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In second place was:

2. Mohammed the Great Profiteer.

*one of those little doubletakes*

"Ps, all of what Christ was predicted hundreds and hundreds of years before his arrival!!!*

Saying, "This is the predicted dude" is a somewhat different assertion than saying, "This dude was predicted."

U2,

Thanks for that post about Ghandi on religion. Very enlightening!

Gandhis(Mahatama,Indira and Rajiv),The Kennedy brothers,Martin Luther King,Malcom X were all victims of violence -was God / Religion responsible or human beings?

I forgot the point of the topic of truth. I meant to say one thing:

I think you take Christianity seriously. So seriously, that you consider it to be a true reflection of an objective reality. That is why you do not even criticize Christianity as much as you condemn Islam.

So I think you already answered my original question - whether you regard Christianity as truth. That is why you hate. You are similar to those you condemn. Perhaps that is why you condemn them.

"do you accept those portions of the koran that i sited?"

I accept that they are the real teachings of Islam. I don't enjoy them or even like them. I also don't particularly enjoy or like the Christian bible. So what? I can find quotes from the bible that are ugly. I can also find very wise quotes from the Tao Te Ching. Quotes don't prove much, because what is most historically important is the manifestation of the religious institution.

I know that the Islamic world spread violently and forcefully converted many people in the Middle East, the sub-continent, and western Europe. But it would be dishonest to not recognize the fact that the western world invaded and colonized other countries - for instance, America. I don't know which society is "worse". Actually I don't think it makes sense to condemn anyone for the violence of the very distant past, since violence seems to be a part of the nature of societies throughout history. Even China, who's citizens like to think of themselves as the pacifists of the world, had a period of immense violence before the beginning of the empire. Torture, plundering, mass killings.

Are you saying that the Islamic world is just particularly extreme? In some ways I agree. I just don't see any reason to condemn Islam. If the US was not in the Middle East, then probably we would not be having this discussion. I think the US is in the Middle East because of the natural resources in the Middle East, namely crude oil reserves. If you haven't noticed, there is a gigantic elephant in the room named oil, and another one named emerging economies. The leaders of the US are not stupid, and would not waste 1/2 trillion dollars to convert the Middle East to Christianity, or even to prevent the death of a few thousand Americans.

Regarding the origins of zero - that is interesting, thank you for enlightening me. I have always been told by Indians and Chinese that India was the source of much of early mathematical wisdom. I also think some Chinese philosophers are unrecognized in the west. Sun-tzu made contributions that are now directly applied to modern cryptography. I love math. It sure beats theology.

Now for the interesting question - Truth. To me, truth is that there is a wine glass sitting on the table in front of me. It is very clear, and it can be verified by other people. Science is an extension of this idea. Scientists are allowed to create unverified models as long as they only claim that the consequences of their models are (tentative) truths. Science is not generally hierarchical, it is flat, and accessible to those without a great deal of wealth or power. (Theistic religion, historically, has been hierarchical, by the way.)

Both science and religion can be misused - that is not the issue at hand. But science is definitely the more reliable arbiter of truth.

Regarding the big bang. There are some (not well tested) theories that say that the (supposed) big bang was preceded by a big crunch. The overall entropy of the universe is increasing, but the maximum entropy of the universe is increasing even more quickly. If you take these ideas to their logical conclusion, the result is that during the big bang, the universe reached maximum entropy - total disorder and thus no predetermination. Possibly, that moment of disorder was preceded by moments of slightly less disorder, and those by moments of much lower disorder.

There are many possibilities. From our current understanding of the universe, I think the best general thing I can say is that there is a lot that we don't yet know. God doesn't come to mind. In fact, if I were to think about it scientifically, I would say that anthropology and history provide models that explain the existence of religion. Scientifically speaking, that means that a less clearly defined model is less likely to account for reality. That is common sense that existed before Christianity or Islam, and today.

Anyway, I got off on a tangent.

I would not want to live in the Middle East. I would also not want to live in Europe in 1200, or Germany in 1930. But I don't see a point in condemning the people who were duped. In many ways, many Americans are currently duped by both political parties. But we have to live with them, so why raise your blood-pressure by hating them?

FRANK

Here are some quotes from the Hebrew bible:

"The Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negev, heard that the Israelites were approaching on the road to Atharim. So he attacked the Israelites and took some of them as prisoners. Then the people of Israel made this vow to the LORD: "If you will help us conquer these people, we will completely destroy all their towns." The Lord heard their request and gave them victory over the Canaanites. The Israelites completely destroyed them and their towns, and the place has been called Hormah ever since." (Numbers 21:1-3 NLT)

"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the Lord your God has given you. But these instructions apply only to distant towns, not to the towns of nations nearby. "As for the towns of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as a special possession, destroy every living thing in them. You must completely destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the LORD your God has commanded you. This will keep the people of the land from teaching you their detestable customs in the worship of their gods, which would cause you to sin deeply against the Lord your God." Deuteronomy 20:10-18 NLT

and the New Testament:

"During this period, Joshua destroyed all the descendants of Anak, who lived in the hill country of Hebron, Debir, Anab, and the entire hill country of Judah and Israel. He killed them all and completely destroyed their towns. Not one was left in all the land of Israel, though some still remained in Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod. So Joshua took control of the entire land, just as the Lord had instructed Moses. He gave it to the people of Israel as their special possession, dividing the land among the tribes. So the land finally had rest from war." (Joshua 11:21-23 NLT)

I have had a rather fun time reading all these diffrent view points, however, I do think that if Frank was soooo wrong, why has no one exposed him for the fraud he suposedly is??

I think that the worst way for a man to learn is by having his EGO broken, but I also beleive that THE ONLY way FOR MAN to LEARN is BY BEING HUMBLED..our EGO kind of gets in the way of God's Will..(we get too defensive when someone Challenges Our EGO)

And for all of those who keep lumping Islam with Christianity...STOP...Look at the teachings of Christ and then look at the teachings of Muhammad (don't really spell the name much, but You get the idea) Seriously is there even a comparison?

The Quaran flipped its Peaceful Teachings to that of Hate, whhy Muhammad's teachings changed was because the JEWS, and CHRISTIANS in Jerusalem rejected his "DIVINE" Message...(showing the reason why the Holy City went from Jerusalem to Mecca)I have several friends that have tried to convince me of this being wrong, but study folks...I mean not "studing" by the words of a man spoken to you in a Mosque or Church, but search for the truth on YOUR OWN!!

I have found that everyone has an agenda, whether they know it or not, seriously our first concieved ideals are those that our parents first instilled in us..So from childhood to adulthood somewhere in those years you're telling me that no one is accountable for theirselves?? Of Course not it's NOT MY FAULT...so typical it's not Humanity (meaning ALL CULTURES!!) that needs to be held accountable but each individual on an individual basis...what applies to you doesn't apply to my life...

Ever wonder why Judgement Day happens, is God so impatient that he can't wait a few Billion Years for the Sun to Burn Out?? No, of course he can, but we shall all be judged on an individual basis by Jesus (only He knows men's hearts) Man as the Human Race is not only me, so why should I be lumped in with all people??

Please folks I could care less if you agree, disagree or just plain don't even read this, because in The End we shall all be humbled and every knee shall bow and every tounge will confess that Christ the Lord is King!!

Ps, all of what Christ was predicted hundreds and hundreds of years before his arrival!!! Where is the Scripture Predating the Coming of the Great Muhammad?? Just a thought??

Men invented religion to spread the Good Word.

The Good Word was articulated via reason and common sense by the ancients. These Words of Wisdom were simply repeated with each new race and religion. Unfortunately the Words were eventually attributed to embellished men in most cases as a means of profiteering as noted by the contemporary billions of dollars and assets owned and controlled by the Mormon, Christian, Jewish and Moslem religions.

no one ever answers my questions - why should you be any different.

FRANK

I think you have good debate etiquette. Your arguments are not generally fallacious in my view, although I disagree with a lot of what you are saying. What I meant to say before is that you probably don't need to respond to everyone here. Nietzsche once wrote something to the effect that we often argue a point to the point of absurdity because of our opponents' poor or obnoxious arguments. But perhaps I am projecting.

I wish I could answer your questions now but it looks like it will have to wait until evening.

but gandalf - its not me - it is your islamic brothers and sisters telling you what islam is to them and to you. why do you have a problem with them? its all islamic - speaking to other islamics.
that is it - just islam with islam.
you cant object to that?

oh you want islam on the u tube. kool - here is islam on the youtube.
here is mickey mouse on it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZEGsnWZKh8

or you can see 6 islami sermons about islamic love in the modern and western world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo&mode=related&search=

Frank,your just hot air.word of advice: dont pop an artery.

Friend:I'll take your advice:)

Spock:I see your point about Salman and Muslim extremism... he sings about Allah,Peace,women's empowerment and Hiv/aids and hangs out with Bill Clinton and Warren Buffet...damned
terrorist!

oh you want islam on the u tube. kool - here is islam on the youtube.
here is mickey mouse on it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZEGsnWZKh8

or you can see 6 islami sermons about islamic love in the modern and western world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo&mode=related&search=

Just checked out Mr.Ahmad on youtube with Al-jazeera's Riz Khan (one on one) He's a total muslim extremist...NOT!!!:)

LIVE LONG AND PROSPER!

gandalf

you will have to answer my questions before i have to respond to yours. until i hear otherwise i proceed on the basis that you accept everything that islams koran says and that you would never reject it.
of all the religions you mentioned only islam institutionalized hate, rape, murder, torture and forced conversions.
i dont put people in boxes.
saladin was a terrorist and if he had kept it up they would have marched on and destroyed mecca. remember that verse from the koran about only accepting peace if you are weaker than your enemy?
as for firend - i have asked before and you have just repeated the islamic line - out of context. so put them in context for us.
as for ghandi - he was entitled to be as he was but his beliefs do not apply to me. he could not have been islamic and a jew, christian or hindu, it would have required him to kill himself - islamics hate everyone not islamic. but that does not prevent them from making hindu's pay a ransom, but when the money runs out they can terrorize them again.
come on islam boys - you can do better than that.

GANDHI ON RELIGION

Thus if I could not accept Christianity either as a perfect, or the greatest religion, neither was I then convinced of Hinduism being such. Hindu defects were pressingly visible to me. If untouchability could be a part of Hinduism, it could but be a rotten part or an excrescence. I could not understand the raison d'etre of a multitude of sects and castes. What was the meaning of saying that the Vedas were the inspired Word of God? If they were inspired, why not also the Bible and the Koran? As Christian friends were endeavouring to convert me, so were Muslim friends. Abdullah Sheth had kept on inducing me to study Islam, and of course he had always something to say regarding its beauty." (source: his autobiography)
"As soon as we lose the moral basis, we cease to be religious. There is no such thing as religion over-riding morality. Man, for instance, cannot be untruthful, cruel or incontinent and claim to have God on his side."
"The sayings of Muhammad are a treasure of wisdom, not only for Muslims but for all of mankind."
Later in his life when he was asked whether he was a Hindu, he replied:

"Yes I am. I am also a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Jew."

Gandalf, Frank is just going to put a huge update that takes the Koran out of context, misrepresents history, and shows one side of a story that is very complex. I say we leave him to his misery like I see many others are doing.

His view is simple...we're the Christian good guys and they're the Muslim bad guys...

Thankfully I have a life,otherwise I can quote a zillion examples of extremists within Christianity(cromwell,bush),Islam(osama,yazid),Hinduism (RSS the same people who killed Gandhi because they thought he was too weak a Hindu) ad infitum and argue that there is something inherently violent about Hinduism,Christianity,Islam which drives these people to violence.(Even the Kid in the Virginia tech killings compares his "sacrifice" to Jesus..)the kid was alienated,marginalised right?or did Jesus provoke him?

by the way Which box would you put Rumi in?He was a Muslim scholar/mystic/poet whose inspiration was Allah,the Koran and Mohammad and is expressed through beautiful inclusive,Love poetry which has made him one of the most popular poets in the West(800 years after his death)Which copy of the Koran was he reading back in the 13th century?
What about Saladin? Why did he let all the Christians go free after conquering Jerusalem?As a religious leader he too should've been compelled to slaughter in the name of Allah?Did you watch the Kingdom of Heaven with Orlando Bloom?

ben:

i have taken a lot of time to answer your question - so how about answering mine - do you accept those portions of the koran that i sited?
now to your questions and statements:

yes i repeat the same arguments when others repeat their same arguments.

to date no one has ever answered a question i have posed but i have answered a lot of them.

is religion truth? i dont know. i think religion is faith. but you have to be specific about what event you are talking about. lets look at the big bang - is this proof the bible is wrong? the old testament says "let there be light" and there was light. could be a simplistic understanding of big bang. or the bible story that god fashioned man out of the clay of the earth and now science tells us that we came from a soup where we started out as a chemical and the cell then we multipled and became life. so do we have another simplistic understanding of that from a story that says god made man from the clay of the earth? then we have the world covered by water - and at one time it was. why are the stories such that they may have a scientific basis - or is it just luck that some of them match. heck - i just dont know.
they say science knows it all - but i dont believe that either. science says we all came from apes - or from the line. those who follow the bible say if evolution is true then there must be at least one creature that was the start of all of us - a common thing that was the first - sounds right to me, but so does our evolving. i dont know. but i dont bow at the alter of science either.

slavery was one of the traditional machines that kept societies running for 10,000 years, or more. we are one of the few societies where it has been outlawed - except in some islamic countries. today its good that it is over. to my knowledge america is the only country that has ever fought a civil war to outlaw it. we have 640,000 dead americans to end it.

you comment about islamic culture making great contributions. during one debate i had someone pointed out that these great contributions appeared to be part of islamic war and taking over other cultures. like the 0. islam says that they found that concept, and i believed it. but india was using zero in 650 ad [but there is even evidence going back to 200 ad]. here is a quote -
"The brilliant work of the Indian mathematicians was transmitted to the Islamic and Arabic mathematicians further west. It came at an early stage for al-Khwarizmi wrote Al'Khwarizmi on the Hindu Art of Reckoning which describes the Indian place-value system of numerals based on 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 0. This work was the first in what is now Iraq to use zero as a place holder in positional base notation. Ibn Ezra, in the 12th century, wrote three treatises on numbers which helped to bring the Indian symbols and ideas of decimal fractions to the attention of some of the learned people in Europe. The Book of the Number describes the decimal system for integers with place values from left to right. In this work ibn Ezra uses zero which he calls galgal (meaning wheel or circle). Slightly later in the 12th century al-Samawal was writing:-
If we subtract a positive number from zero the same negative number remains. ... if we subtract a negative number from zero the same positive number remains.
The Indian ideas spread east to China as well as west to the Islamic countries. In 1247 the Chinese mathematician Ch'in Chiu-Shao wrote Mathematical treatise in nine sections which uses the symbol O for zero. A little later, in 1303, Zhu Shijie wrote Jade mirror of the four elements which again uses the symbol O for zero."

so did islam really come up with zero? they say they did - but the indians say the were using it in 200 ad - 400 years before islam ever existed.

the point i was making is that great ideas that came from islam may actually have come from the people they beat in battle. the same can be said of america too. einstein came to america as did other great men and women but we got the credit for some of their actions.

and islamic culture is not all that old. 1400 year is not old. i dont consider 2,000 years as old. the egyptians - they are old. but it could be argued that anything over 1000 years is old.

actually turkey killed almost 2 million christians in 1914 to 18, even without the nazi killing machine. when it started there were 2,000,000 christian armenians. when ww1 ended there were only 200,000 left. for that i blame anyone who was alive then and allowed it to happen and anyone who denies it. just like i blame nazis for the holocaust and those that pretend to be naszis now. they are just as guilty as far as i am concerned. if you adopt the evil knowing the evil, you are evil. those people who are members of the kkk are evil even if they only march and repeat the lies of the kkk. now we are not talking about LEGAL guilt we are talking about moral guilt.

actually yugoslavia had its own ss under hitler - they were bosnians - and would you believe it - they were islamic! will wonders ever cease?

no society is ENTITLED to flaws. none. they get punished for the flaws, either by their own people who change the government, or by foreign governments who are attacked by that government and respond in kind.

and when you ask "is christianity truth" you have to be more specific as to what part of being a christian. after all many people say what they think being a christian is and i would not adopt those beliefs.

hitler hated jews - but jesus was a jew. did he hate jesus? he was an alter boy but does that mean he was carrying out some belief of his religion of youth? so you need to pose a specific question so i can give you a specific answer.

but here is something i believe - i believe jesus lived, that his mother was mary, that he is the son of god and is therefore god. i believe he was killed and came back from the dead. i believe he performed many good acts.

i belive he will return and that he is now in heaven.

beyond that you have to be more specific.

FRANK

I don't think there is much point in arguing any longer. I read a lot of Nietzsche's writings and base some of my ideas on his. It seems that you are arguing your point mostly because your opponents keep making the same fallacious arguments.

I am also curious about whether you believe religion is truth. I don't. But I do believe that science is the closest thing to truth we have.

I believe cultures are entitled to flaws. Huge ones. I would condemn a culture based only on slavery, or some such mythical culture. But muslim culture is an ancient culture that has contributed to science and philosophy a great deal. In the future, muslim culture may be prosperous again.

Western culture is wonderful. I do not wish to condemn my own culture for the flaws that exist either. I do not condemn you or myself for the Holocaust. If Turkey had a revolution (non-Islamic, say), and killed several million Jews, I would not condemn all of the Middle East forever.

So I guess our difference is mainly about philosophy, how we deal with the truth.

I am still curious whether you think Christianity is truth.

gandalf:

you know i see that as a typicle islamic response. when i quote the koran they say i am full of hate. wasn't it moho who said these words that islamics call me hateful for using?
well they at least know they are hateful, but unfortunately, under islam, hate is allowed and encouraged.
you forgot to quote all those words of peace that you say are in the koran - but then when you look at the world today, or the history of islam, there is no such peace.

here is the peace of islam for india. i bet you think that it is just great - that islamic peace.

Mahmud of Gaznavi
(From the accounts of arikh-i-Yamini of Utbi the secretary of Mahmud of Gaznavi)

At Thaneshwar.
"The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously at Thanesar that the stream was discolored, not withstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink it. The Sultan returned with plunder which is impossible to count. Praise be to Allah for the honor he bestows on Islam and Muslims."

At Somnath
"The Muslims paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of the infidels and worshipers of sun and fire.... The number of infidels killed exceeded 50,000"

At Mathura
"The infidels...deserted the fort and tried to cross the foaming river...but many of them were slain, taken or drowned... Nearly fifty thousand men were killed."

Mahmud of Ghori
(from Hasan Nizami's Taj-ul-Maasir)
Kol (Modern Aligarh)
"Those of the horizon who were wise and acute were converted to Islam, but those who stood by their ancestoral faith were slain with the sword"

Kol (Modern Aligarh)

20,000 prisoners were taken and made slaves
'Three bastions were raised as high as heaven with their heads and their carcases became food for the beasts of prey

Kalinjar
50,000 prisoners were taken as slaves
Varnasi or Kasi (Benaras) :
Kamil-ut-Tawarikh of Ibn Asir records,
"The slaughter of Hindus (at Varanasi) was immense; none were spared except women and children,(who were taken into slavery) and the carnage of men went on until the earth was weary."

Zahiru'd-Din Muhammed Babur (1526 C.E. - 1520 C.E.)
Babur's Own Words on Killing Hindus:
For the sake of Islam I became a wanderer,
I battled infidels and Hindus,
I determined to become a maryr
Thank God I became a Killer of Non-Muslims!

From Baburnama, the Memoires of Babur Himself:
In AH 934 (2538 C.E.) I attacked Chanderi and by the grace of Allah captured it in a few hours. We got the infidels slaughtered and the place which had be Daru'l-Harb (nation of non-muslim) for years was made into a Daru'l-Islam (muslim nation).

Guru Nanak on Babur's atrocities:
Source:Rag Asa Guru Nanak Dev witnessed first hand the atrocities Babur committed on Hindus and recorded them in his poems. He says: Having attacked Khuraasaan, Babar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mugal as the messenger of death. There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn't You feel compassion, Lord? pg (360)

On the condition of Hindu women in Babur's monster rule:
Those heads adorned with braided hair, with their parts painted with vermillion - those heads were shaved with scissors, and their throats were choked with dust.They lived in palatial mansions, but now, they cannot even sit near the palaces.... ropes were put around their necks, and their strings of pearls were broken. Their wealth and youthful beauty, which gave them so much pleasure, have now become their enemies. The order was given to the soldiers, who dishonored them, and carried them away. If it is pleasing to God's Will, He bestows greatness; if is pleases His Will, He bestows punishment pg(417-18)

On the nature of Mughal rule under Babur:
First, the tree puts down its roots, and then it spreads out its shade above. The kings are tigers, and their officials are dogs; they go out and awaken the sleeping people to harass them. The public servants inflict wounds with their nails. The dogs lick up the blood that is spilled. Source:Rag Malar, (pg.1288)

From an article by Dr. Harsh Narain on Muslim Testimony (Indian Express 2/26/90):
Since the establishment of Zahiru'd-Din Ghazi's rule, officers and religious leaders spread Islam vigorously desteroying the Hindu faith. We cleared the filth of Hinduism from Faizabad and Avadh.

Sultan Firuz Shah Tughlaq
(from Insha-i-Mahry by Amud Din Abdullah bin Mahru)
Delhi: -a punishment in detail (from Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi)

"A report was brought to the Sultan than there was in Delhi an old Brahman who persisted in publicly performing the worship of idols in his house and that people of the city, both Muslims and Hindus used to resort to his house to worship the idol. The Brahman had constructed a wooden tablet which was covered within and without with paintings of demons and other objects. An order was accordingly given to the Brahman and was brought before Sultan.The true faith was declared to the Brahman and the right course pointed out. but he refused to accept it. A pile was risen on which the Kaffir with his hands and legs tied was thrown into and the wooden tablet on the top. The pile was lit at two places his head and his feet. The fire first reached him in the feet and drew from him a cry and then fire completley enveloped him. Behold Sultan for his strict adherence to law and rectitude."

Delhi : (after Hindus paid the toleration tax (zar-i zimmiya) and poll-tax(jizya) they were foolish enough to build their temples.so...) "Under divine guidance I (Sultan) destroyed these temples and I killed the leaders of these infedility and others I subjected to stripes and chastisement "

Gohana (Haryana):
"Some Hindus had erected a new idol-temple in the village of Kohana and the idolaters used to assemble there and perform their idolatrous rites. These people were seized and brought before me. I ordered that the perverse conduct of these leaders of this wickedness be punished by publicly abd that they should be put to deathe before the gate of the palace."

Jajnagar:(Expedition objectives as stated by Sultan: Source:Ainn-ul-Mulk)

massacring the unbelievers

demolishing their temples

hunting the elephants

getting a glimpse of their enchanting country

Orissa:'Sirat-i-Firoz Shahi' records his expedition with the following words:
"Nearly 100,000 men of Jajnagar had taken refuge with their women, children, kinsmen and relations The swordsmen of Islam turned the island into a basin of blood by the massacre of the unbelievers. Women with babies and pregnant ladies were haltered, manacled, fettered and enchained, and pressed as slaves into service in the house of every soldier."
The Jihads of Shihabuddin,
the Sultankalka of Ghur

Around 1140, the Islamized Turko-Mongol chiefs of the Shansabanid tribe occupied Ghor in Afghanistan. Initially it was a vassal of the Ghaznavid Sultans, but around 1130 it came into conflict with them, after one of the leading Shansabanid nobles was murdered by the Ghaznavid Sultan, Bahram. A ferocious war ensued between the Sultans of Ghor and Ghazni, till Alla-ud-din Ghori invaded Ghazni with his entire cavalry and wrested it from Bahram. Alla-ud-din sacked the Indian spoils that Mahmud had placed there, massacred the city’s population in a 7-day killing spree and subsequently burnt it down. The next Ghaznavid Sultan, Khushro Maliq was driven out of Afghanistan by a coalition of Oghuz Turks and the Ghorids in 1157, and the Oghuz took Ghazni. The sons of Alla-ud-din, Ghiyas-ud-din Mu’azz-ud-din Ghori and Shihab-ud-din Muhammad Ghori defeated the Oghuz and annexed Ghazni in 1174. Ghiyas-ud-din, crowned himself Sultan, and appointed his brother Sultankalka. Shihab-ud-din was assigned the task of extending the kingdom to the East and he naturally gravitated towards India. 13 bloody campaigns that ravaged Northern India followed:

• Early in 1175 he invaded Punjab and sacked and burned Uch...(1)

• In 1178 he advanced south and marched towards Gujarat, but here the Indians acted quickly and rallying under the western chAlukya king MUlarAja II routed the Islamic forces completely forcing him to retreat...(2)

• In 1179 Ghori sent a message to PrithivirAja chAhamAna to make common cause with him against the Chalukyas. Prithivaraj however, wise disregarding his foolish minister, kadambavAsa’s advise to make a common cause with Ghori, preemptively attacked NaDDula and reconquered it from the Moslems.

• Shihab recovered in 1180 and invaded Sindh and ravaged the population carrying away much loot...(3)

• Then Shihabuddin Muhammad, quickly followed it up in 1181 and 1184 with two invasions of Lavapura (Lahore) accompanied with much slaughter...(4+5)

• In 1186 he invaded the Ghaznavid occupied Punjab and defeated the Sultan Khushro Maliq and wrested Punjab...(6)

• 1188 The Ghur Sultankalka invaded the ChAhamAna kingdom and sacked the fort of Tabarhindah killing the Hindu male populace and raping the women. Hindu refugees flocked around Delhi alarming the ChAhamAnas...(7)

• 1191 PrithivirAj advanced to meet Shihabuddin’s raid and routed him in the great battle of Tarai. While the Muslims suffered a crushing defeat, the Indians failed to butcher them to man and allowed Shihab to get away unharmed. He fled back to Central Asia leaving Punjab completely undefended...(8)

• 1191 PrithivirAj attacked Tabarhindah and took it back from the Muslims. Here the biggest mistake of the Hindus was not to reconquer and arm Punjab suitably.

• 1192 Shihab returned and sacked Tabarhindah again. This was followed by the second battle of Tarai, the ChAhamAna army was crushed and Prithiviraj was captured and brutally tortured to death...(9)

• 1192 the Ghur Sultankalka made a second trust towards Ajayamerupura (Ajmer) and sacked it smashing Hindu temples and a Hindu university in course of this invasion. The Hindus captured in this expedition caused slave prices to fall to a few Dirhams in the Muslim markets...(10)

• 1193 The sultankalka invaded Kannauj and slew the GAhadwala king Jayachandra. He followed this up with an invasion of vArANsipura slaughtering Hindus with great savagery and desecrating the holy city...(11+12)

After this, his viceroy Kutub-ud-din (also his lover?) and the Turkish adventurer Ikhtiyaruddin Khalji furthered the violence of Islam in the land of Hind. Meanwhile Shihab’s brother died in Ghazna and he crowned himself Sultan and immediately launched himself into another Jihad on the infidels of Hindustan in 1206. The exact course of this campaign is not clear. While on the North-western reaches of the Sindhu, he was ambushed by the Khokar chiefs and shot down by an arrow...(13). Thus ended the carrier of the Moslem brigand who brought misery to the whole of northern India through his 13 invasions
The Jihads of
Alla-ud-din Khalji

The one time when it appeared that the sanAtana dharma might vanish off the face of bhArata was during the ferocious jihads of Alla-ud-din of the Khalji tribe. The Khaljis entered India from Ghazna during the reign of the Mamluq Sultan Qutub-ud-din Aibak. The first of them to make his mark Bakhtiyar Khalji, whose savage jihad in Bihar and destruction of the Indian centers of learning like Nalanda is only well known. Jalal-ud-din Khalji, another member of this tribe, was accepted as the Sultan of Delhi by a confederation of Turkic tribes, after the collapse of the Mamluq Balban’s regime. Jalal opened his innings by consolidating the Turkic regime in India by suppressing other competing Maliqs and appointed his nephew, Alla-ud-din to expand his domains. We shall briefly consider his campaigns:

• In 1291 he was sent to destroy the remaining Kaffirs of Bhilsa in Central India. Il-tut-mish, the Mamluq had earlier desecrated this Hindu-Buddhist temple-university complex but it had fallen away from Islamic control. Alla invaded and conquered Bhilsa and total exterminated the Kaffirs and left behind a ghost city whose long lost temple remnants can be seen even today.

• 1292 He attacked the Vidisha in Central India, a great center of learning and destroyed it completely and slew the inhabitants.

• 1292 His spies got him the news of the great wealth of the yAdava dynasty of mahArashTra and Alla promptly invaded it and carried away a large amount of loot.

• 1295 In a remarkable campaign Alla carried the war right to Devagiri the heart of the yAdava kingdom. He demolished and looted all the temples in Devagiri.

• In 1296 with this loot Alla bought most of the Khalji army and murdered his uncle Jalal and drove away his aunt and cousin and declared himself Sultan of Hind. Jaziya was imposed on the Kaffirs.

• 1296. Latter in the year he joined the Southern Alliance of the Chagadai Ulus (predominantly Turkic tribes) against the Northern Alliance (predominantly Mongolic) and routed the latter in a battle at Jallandar securing the Panjab for himself.

• In 1297 he invaded Gujarat and destroyed the ancient Surya temples at Mehsana and subjugated the Hindus of the land with much slaughter. The rAja of Gujarat fled to Devagiri and the Hindu kings tried to fight back under shankara yAdava. Alla sent Ulugh Khan and Nusrat Khan against them, who defeated the yAdavas and the Gujarat king. They captured and castrated a Hindu youth who was name Maliq Kaffr and presented him to Alla, who took him as his lover.

• 1298 He sent his fiercest il-ghazi, Zafar Khan, to wage a jihad against the pagan Northern Alliance chief Suldus who was sent by Chagadai Kha’Khan Duwa. The battle concluded in a draw after fierce fighting.

• 1298 Later in the year he battled against Qutulugh Khawaja, a son of Duwa, of the Northern Alliance, the results were inconclusive

• 1299 Qutulugh Khawaja reached the doors of Delhi with a large horde. Alla’s il-ghazi’s Zafar Khan, Ulugh Khan and Nusrat Khan defeated Qutulugh Khawaja, but Zafar Khan was shot dead by an arrow in this battle.

• 1299 Ulugh Khan was sent to quell the Hindu resistance in Gujarat. He conquered the fort of Junagad and demolished all the temples in the surrounding regions and then went on to attack Somnath and destroy the great temple that the Hindus had rebuilt.

• 1299. Hammira Deva of the Ranthambhor defeated Alla as he attempted to sack the Rajput stronghold.

• 1301. Alla returned with his entire force to sack Ranthambhor. He succeeded and slew Hammira Deva. He conducted a massive temple demolition operation destroying all the temples of Jhain and Sawai Madhopur and slew the inhabitants.

• 1303. Chittor alone that had held out against the Muslims, attracted Khalji’s attention due to its beautiful queen Padmini. Khalji sacked and burned Chittor after slaying Rana Rattan Singh.

• 1303. Turghai and Ali Beg of the Northern Alliance wrested the Punjab from Alla and invaded Sindh. They blockaded Delhi itself for two months but retreated due to the summer heat.

• 1304. Jihad was launched on Ujjaini. This ancient center of Indian learning was destroyed completely. Chanderi was attacked next by Alla and the ancient temples were demolished.

• 1305. Malwa and Mandu were savaged and the inhabitants slaughtered.

• 1306. Then Turghai and Ali Beg defeated Khalji’s army and captured Lahore and Amroha near Delhi. Tughlaq Khan, a general of Alla, counter-attacked defeated and captured 9000 Pagan Turko-Mongols of the Northern Alliance. He had them all trampled to death by elephants for refusing to accept Islam.

• 1308. Qebek (another son of Chagadai ruler, Duwa) and Ibaqmand of the Northern Alliance struck back captured Multan. But Alla defeated them on their way back and again slaughtered all the pagan prisoners he took.

• 1308. Later in the year, the Rajputs regrouped in Sivana and declared independence but Alla smashed them in a lightning campaign and destroyed the temples in the region.

• 1309. He sent Maliq Kaffr against Devagiri that was attempting to reassert itself. Maliq Kaffr defeated the yAdavas and penetrated the Hoysala kingdom.

• 1310 Maliq Kaffr destroyed Dwarasamudra after a fierce battle and ended the Hindu Hoysala rule over those regions.

• 1311 Maliq Kaffr devastated Telengana and destroyed the temples of Warangal. He then invaded Madhurai and destroyed the Pandyan kingdom. The temples of Madhurai and Chidambaram were destroyed. Kaffr returned with enormous amounts of gold looted from the destroyed temples.

• 1311 Alla invaded Jalor to destroy the Rajput fight back and massacred the Hindu population while destroying the city.

• 1313 Devagiri made another attempt to defy the Muslim terror, Alla personally invaded mahArashTra to ravage the Devagiri kingdom.

• 1314 Alla more or less became a puppet in the hand of his lover Kaffr and subsequently died in 1316.

• 1316 Death.

Thereafter, Maliq Kaffr killed all the members of the Khalji tribe except for Qutbuddin Mubarak, Alla’s last son, and ruled in his name. Kaffr was murdered by the Turkish chiefs of the Southern Alliance and Mubarak ascended the throne. In 1318 Qutbuddin Mubarak invaded Devagiri again as its ruler Haripala Deva had cast off the Muslim yoke. Haripala faced a massive defeat and was captured. He was skinned alive and his head and skin were placed on display at the entrance to the Devagiri fort. Thus ended the yAdava dynasty and Hindu sovereignty in mahArashTra. Mubarak’s lover Khusru murdered him and made himself Sultan. Amir Qazaghan of the Qara’Unas tribe, from Konduz, became the lord of the Southern Alliance and sent his commander al Ghazi al Maliq Tughlaq to seize the throne of Delhi after murdering Khusru.

Sources: Histoire des Mongols D’Ohsson.; Hafiz-i-Abru, trns Byani (Paris 1936). Tazjiyat-al-amsar va tajriyat of Wassaf; A Forgotten Empire : Vijayanagar : A Contribution to the history of India", Robert Sewell
Aurangazeb (1658 C.E. - 1707 C.E.)
Aurangzeb considered himself "The Scourge Of The Kafirs" (non-believers) and closed Hindu schools and libraries. In his lifetime he destroyed more than 10,000 Hindu, Buddhist and Jam temples and often erected mosques in their stead.3 In 1669 in Agra he had hacked off the limbs of the recalcitrant Hindu King Gokla and in 1672 several thousand revolting Hindus were slaughtered in Mewat.

From: Maasi-i-Alamgiri

Issued general order to destroy all centers of Hindu learnings including Varnasi and destroyed the temple at Mathura and renamed it as Islamabad
In Khandela (rajastan) he killed 300 Hindus in one day for they resisted the destruction of their temple.
In Udaipur all Hindus of the town were killed as they vowed to defend the temple of Udaipur from destruction.
172 temples were destroyed in Udaipur.
66 temples were pulled down in Amber. All Hindu clerks were dismissed from the office of the Imperial empire.
In Pandhpur , Maharashtra, the Emperor ordered and executed the destruction of temple and butchering of cows within the temple.
Aurangazeb also tortured to death the disciples of Guru Tegh bahadur before his death and also killed Guru. Guru Tegh Bahadur - the pride of Hindustan was martyred for he spoke for the persecuted Hindus of Hindustan. Aurangazeb also killed Guru Gobind singh's two children aged less than ten by walling them alive for not accepting the choice of Islam. In Punjab Muslim governors killed hundreds of Sikh children and made Sikh women eat the flesh of their own killed children. Banda Bahadur another great Sikh martyr before being torturd to death was also made to eat the flesh of his own children killed before his eyes. Any Muslim bringing the head of a dead Sikh was also awarded money

Jahangir (1605 C.E. - 1628 C.E.)
Source: Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri
Though in the beginning of his rule Jahangir followed the humanistic rule of his father Akbar the great -the policy of sulehkul even issued a proclamation against the forcible conversion of Hindus to Islam, he revoked Akbar's orders that those who have been forcibly converted from Islam could return to Hinduism. He severely punished Kaukab, Sharif and Abdul Latif for showing inclination to Hinduism. He also prohibited the free inter-marriage customs between Hindus and Muslims in Kashmir. Hindus marrying Muslim girls and those who had already married were given a hoice between Islam and death. Many were killed.

Jahangir's torture of Guru Arjun Dev ji: Guru was imprisoned at Lahore fort. He was chained to a post in an open place exposed to the sun from morning to evening in the summer months of May to June. Below his feet a heap of sand was put which burnt like a furnace. Boiling water was poured on his naked body at intervals. His body was covered with blisters all over. In this agony Guru used to utter.

Tera Kiya Metha lage, naam padarath Nanak mange(whatever you ordain appears sweet. I supplicate for the gift of name)

The Guru was ordercd to be executed. In addition a fine of Rupees two lakhs was imposed on him. Some historians say that, as a measure of clemency at the intervention of Mian Mir, this fine was imposed in lieu of the sentence of death. The Sikhs offered to pay the fine themselves but the Guru forbade them to do so. He replied to the Emperor, "Whatever money I have is for the poor, the friendless and the stranger. If thou ask for money thou mayest take what I have; but if thou ask for it by way of fine, I shall not give thee even a Kaurz (penny)." The Guru accepted death by torture
Shah Jahan (1658 C.E. - 1707 C.E.)
In 1632 Shah jahan ordered that all Hindu temples recently erected or in the course of construction should be razed to the ground. In Benares alone seventy six temples were destroyed. Christian churches at Agra and Lahore were demolished. In a manner befitting the Prophet he had ten thousand inhabitants executed by being "blown up with powder, drowned in water or burnt by fire". Four thousand were taken captive to Agra where they were tortured to try to convert them to Islam. Only a few apostacised, the remainder were trampled to death by elephants, except for the younger women who went to harems.

Shahjahan put enormous eonomic pressure on Hindus particularly peasents to become Muslims. The criminals too were forced to become Muslims.

Source: Badshah Nama, Qazinivi & Badshah Nama , Lahori

When Shuja was appointed as governor of Kabul he carried on a ruthless war in the Hindu territory beyond Indus...The sword of Islam yielded a rich crop of converts....Most of the women (to save their honour) burnt themselves to death. Those captured were distributed among Muslim Mansabdars.

Source: Manucci, Storia do Mogor vol-II p.451 & Travels of Frey Sebastian Manrique

Under Shahjahan peasents were compelled to sell their women and children to meet their revenue requirements....The peasents were carried off to various Markets and fairs to be sold with their poor unhappy wives carrying their small children crying and lamenting. According to Qaznivi Shahjagan had decreed they should be sold to Muslim lords.

FRANK

I have only read several short passages of the Qur'an so I am afraid I don't know how to comment. Yes you are probably right the Qur'an often teaches hatred and violence.

I have studied Taoism and Confucianism, and I learned about the bible as a youth. If I were to compare Christianity to Taoism or Confucianism, I would have to admit that Christianity is much more confrontational and, yes, violent than either of the two religions native to China.

Speaking of China, compare your claims against Islam to when U.S. officials condemn China for not enforcing intellectual property laws. The supposition is that China does not want to enforce intellectual property laws - a result of self-interest - and that the U.S. does not have much of an intellectual property problem.

It is true that the US has a much better system for dealing with intellectual property, but it is not something that could be transplanted into Chinese governance. Additionally, the U.S. has a major intellectual problem itself.

So, the expectation that many in the U.S. have that China suddenly conform to intellectual property laws is unrealistic. It is based on idealism, and neither reality nor truth. Likewise, it is unrealistic to expect another culture to be exactly like yours.

Put into simpler words: While you and I feel that Western culture is in a most ways better than Islamic culture, it is inhumane to condemn an entire culture essentially because of what they wear. If you are deeply religious, you may disagree with my last statement.

Frank collins,you are of the dark side.You and the extremists deserve each other till infinity.

Friend:Come out of the trap he sets for you.

Matthew:
how do you and your islamic friends discuss this and show me where there is peace and love here?

"9.30": And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the

Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the

words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who

disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are

turned away! "

and christians do not say jesus is the son of allah, there is no

such god, allah is some fake thing made up by the child

rapist and no real chirstian would ever confuse the two.

"5.57": O you who believe! do not take for guardians those

who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among

those who were given the Book before you and the

unbelievers; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are

believers."

or this part where they say jesus did not die on the cross.
"4.157": And their saying: Surely we have killed the

Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they

did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to

them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein

are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge

respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed

him not for sure."
this means they deny the very basis of being christian. and

lets not forget - no one in the old or new testament ever

mentioned the fake god allah.

"4.171": O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits

in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but

(speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an

apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to

Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and

His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you;

Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should

have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in

the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector."

and in that passage all of the beliefs of christians is tossed

out by islamic scum.

lets not forget this one:
"5.73": Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is

the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the

one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful

chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve."

and in the above they give permission to kill those who

believe that jesus is the son of god and the third person in

the trinity of the father, son and holy spirit. but even their

pretend god get that wrong. the inflatable allah thinks the

world considers the trinity to be the father, son and mary.

how did he get that one wrong?

and what about these words of peace from the koran - or do you just not bring them up?
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and practice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority."

Ben:
I know lots of islamics. i know ministers from islamic countries - not priests - but heads of department ministers. i have 3 korans - one personally autographed by a retired saudi minister.
as for friends - not any more. i have never met one that did not try to say that hitler was right, that the jews in israel were not innocent - they were invaders - that they - no matter what their age or sex - deserve to be killed. i have had them tell me that the jews did 911.
do you actually think i started out hating islam? i bought into the bs the same as a lot of other people. i was raised thinking that islam respected jews and christians - we were "people of the book". boy was i wrong.
my conversion started about 35+ years ago when a friend gave me a koran, in english. did that open my eyes. but i had some doubts - maybe i did not understand - after all the bible had lots of war and killing in it. i read about other religions too. you know the hindu thing - which i did not get too far into and did not like. then there was zen - the living death as i heard it referred to. it was booring for me. then i decided to consentrate on the three religions that claim the same god. wow - wake up time.
it finally dawned on me that what the koran called for was a constant state of war against anyone not islamic, and it they were not any around then they killed each other. the thing that really got to me was non separation of the church and state. the military leaders would command the intepretation of islam. in the west the church had no army, for islam the head gerneral was the spiritural leader.
i read about the crusades and found out that it only took place after more than 400 years of attacks by islam, which sacked rome, took over european countries by war and for the stated purpose of displacing the existing religion and forcing islam on them.
i read the hadith too. i have listened to quotes from the mosques - they post them on the net with english translations. what i know about islam i get from islam, not from any other source.
what makes you think i do not criticize christians? have you ever seen anyting written by me that says christians are all good? that they cant do wrong? quit raising a straw man.

its acts i look at and if christians do things wrong they get punished by their countries. if a christian kills the country tries and convicts and punishes them. but if an islamic goes into isreal and kills a bunch of jews who are children or old women and kills himself doing it what happens. his family gets money - many thousands of dollars. they hold a parade - funeral for him and tens of thousands march in his honor. they name a street or park after him. all for killing a bus full of children or an ice cream parlor or pizza parlor full of women and children.

my feelings for islam come from what islam says and what it does. everything i publish has at least 2 sources and they are islamic if possible.

and i note that you did not say that the hate full verses noted in the koran were wrong. why is that?

i have to admit that your approach is better than most - but its still not a rejection of the hate that is in the koran.

the christian religion is fully about peace - but not christians themselves. they get it wrong all the time and christian nations go to war agaist them - even if the wrong is to an islamic nation. remember bosnia -

and i dont need to analyize what america does, i live it. and if i think my country is wrong i tell my elected leaders. but that is not my concern here.

my concern here is when an islamic says something that sounds reasonable and it isn't because words have different meaning to islam.
and yes i lived for a while in islamic north africia - i saw islam up close and personal. i had no bad experiences there but that does not mean i accept islam as a religion of peace.
you see its not the world that has it wrong - its islam.

The message coming out of all holy books, whether Torah, New Testament, the Qur'an, or Geetha, totally depend upon the readers.

Reading of the Qur'an by Salman Ahmad and other decent Muslims brings friendship, peace, and reaching out with kindness and compassion.

On the other hand, when Muslim crazies, Jihadists, suicider, sand supermists read the Qur'an, the message is kill, suicide, bombing, hatred etc. Similarly, non-Muslim supermists, hate mongers read the Qur'an, the message coming out it is not any different than Muslim Jihadists, sadists, hate monggers.

Therefore, I am sorry to dump Frank Collins in the same basket as I would do with Jihadists and Muslim crazies.

Frank Collins needs a personal reformation.

Forget the worldwind tour of history and point by point questions. They only obfuscate the issue.

His voluminous updates do not obsure the fact that he singles out one group of people for the ills of the world. He takes the actions of a small group from this faith as justifcation that they should change their Holy book, which is very illuminating on life. We know that anyone could take our ethnic, national, and religious inheritence and do the same to us. His logic is, “There is evil in this book, therefore they must renouce it.” We know that there is also evil
in most Holy books - most books even, because that’s part of who we are as a species – both evil and good.

We hear numerous voices from this faith renouce violence yet Frank persists that these people are not faithful to their religion.

His aggressivness only further points out
his provincial attitude towards complex world issues.

We are all connected on this planet as a single species.

We are all one.

That huge hand of judgement that you carry
Frank, must also point to yourself.

FRANK COLLINS -

I appreciate your response. You have explained your position well. In many ways I agree with you. Islam is used to incite violence. It is used in political propaganda. As well, the Qur'an paints a picture that seems very foreign and perhaps cruel to most of us westerners.

However, to me it seems you have an aversion to the overall message of Islam.

From one of your posts:

"the temporal is what i object to. believe how you want - until it impacts me. its not the belief part of islam i find fault with. yes i think its darn absurd that the god of the old and new testament decided to have a new religion and kill off the only two groups that actually believed in him - the jews and christians. sort of dumb that as a reward for believing he will kill you."

Perhaps you should start by learning about the cultures of Islam. Befriend a muslim. I have had several muslim friends. Without such human interaction, I may have had a disconnected, media-generated conception of Islam.

Secondly, try gathering quotes from the Christian Bible. Criticize Christianity. Count the number of times the United States has invaded another country. Note the use of Christian dogma by politicians in the United States. Analyze the CNT, the Christian Coalition, and the politicians who court these organizations.

I don't believe any religion is fully about peace. But I think if you really get to know some muslims, you will see that in general muslims are aware of what is happening within their societies. They are aware that Islam is often used to incite violence. But they are understandably not willing to put up with blind criticism from people who have not bothered to try to understand them.

To me it is obvious that when someone thinks everyone is "good", that person lacks experience. Equally as much, when someone condemns an entire culture as "bad", I believe that person is not trying to understand said culture. Understanding often begins with the realization that you are ignorant in some ways. Am I speaking a falsehood?

I am frequently reminded on these boards of the very wise words of a UU minister friend of mine. She once told me, "People continue to make the mistake of thinking that God is a noun. God is a verb. Any time you do something that sends a positive vibraton out into the Universe, that's God."
It's not about whether you perceive a big bearded Jewish guy sitting on a golden throne in the clouds, or a goddess whose very lifeblood runs in the xylem and phloem of the trees. It's about how you behave.
My favorite book about the nature of God - Douglas Wood's "Old Turtle." Check it out.

ben -

the reason for the conflict between islam and everyone else is the koran - which tells them to hate the infidels. it has nothing to do with oil or israel.

and what does christian self interest have to do with islams 1400 year war against everyone else? islam started the war 1400 years ago before anyone knew anything about islam. it was a war of expansion.

i have posted the dates of the attacks by islam. i have posted where in the koran it requires hate and murder. i have never seen an islamic reject them - NEVER!

ano:

there have been, and always will be, war. but there are different reasons.

yes everyone should condemn islam for its statements about of hate and vile acts that islam singles out jews, christians, hindu's and others, to receive.

the new testament does not say that jews must be killed as the koran does. both jews and christians were alive at the same time.

and the rise of islam was not by peace but by war - as i have already stated above and given dates for. dont you think it strange that early christians did not have an army to defeat anyone but spread anyway. islam had to attack and kill its neighbors to expand.

the secular leaders of islamic states did everything in the name of the koran and their god, but no pope ever had an army. well maybe there wsa one around 1600 or so that fought to unify italy, but even the crusades were lead by the kings of the day, and they were not the priests or religious. actually they were pretty unreligious - as most kings are.

yes hitler was the worst, but he was the worst at everything. well maybe stalin was a close 2nd. but neither was christian and neither was working for religious purposes. they were just the run of the mill dictators. and what did islam do about them - well islam joined with hitler and even had their own ss division - in bosnia.

so are you going to reject the hateful verses of the koran or not?

FRANK COLLINS:

It is telling that you so quickly choose to post quotes from the Qur'an that condemn Jews. Perhaps you think that everyone should condemn Islam for those statements.

But doesn't the fact that Islam came after Christianity account for the fact that there are no passages in the bible condemning Islam?

Do you realize that both the Middle East and the West have histories of persecuting the Jews? In modern history, the West is the worst culprit.

If you were to say that religion is about conformity, solidarity, and the identification of The Enemy, then I would agree. I would even agree that the passages you quoted support such a thesis. But I would not be able to agree that Islam is inherently more violent or hateful than Christianity. You think the Other Peoples' lens is distorted. Perhaps it is, but so is yours.

The reason for conflict between the West and Islam is largely due to natural resources and demographics. The Middle East has oil, the most important natural resource on Earth. The world is in an escalating zero-sum game of who-controls-the-oil-trade and thus the world energy supply and the world currency. The major political leaders of the US have relationships with Christian leaders. We cannot go to war "for oil and power" in America, we must go to war "for security and democracy". European business and political leaders, angry about their loss of opportunities for advancement in the zero-sum game, are indignant and morally condemn the United States. China, the only extremely large atheist country, could not afford self-pity this time, and sought resources in other regions. Perhaps this was because China had much more to worry about within.

Christianity is very good at convincing people that they are the "Good" ones and can attack others with impunity. The US is in Iraq "for Democracy", "because Condi Rice shed tears after 9/11", "for the women of the Middle East". Unfortunately, it is just as easy to convince most non-Muslim, non-Christians people that Christianity is no less inherently violent in practice than Islam.

But I digress: Political leaders will invent whatever myths serve their needs. Christianity is a pretty powerful tool, in that it provides impunity as well as power. Perhaps Islam lacks that finesse.

Well said Salman.You must visit the shire with me,we tried to show the world who Gollum is but people thought he was just a slimy little,pathetic creature who was created to torment frodo...there is a gollum within all of us (christian,muslim,jew et al)who wants to covet,possess the Precious.The Precious is unseen for the moment so I understand your frustration but worry not all will be revealed
in time.Love your music,it contains Truth...continue to share it with the world.See you in the next life!

My unofficial poll regarding a proper title for Mohammed continues. Religions being "man made" is so far supported by the results. With over 60% of the polling complete, the titles best suited for Mohammed are:

1. Mohammed the Great Hallucinator Of Mythical Wingie Thingies and

2. Mohammed the Great Profiteer.

I am now home, so this might not post so well....sorry but i can't afford the set up that my work has...what a feakin Network...but anyway.

I will end with this: IF WE ALL STRIVED TO BE RAGPICKERS NONE OF THIS WOULD BE UP FOR DISCUSSION.

Now if you are confused by what a Ragpicker is then pick up a book by Og Mandino "The Greatest Miracle in the World", now I never plug advertisements, but this book is so amazing, it is awesome no matter what Religion you follow...it is a book that should be taught in the pathetic public schools, but that is another topic for another thread...

Trust me ALL of Og's books are amazing, but seriously read it and if it doesn't change your life, then we can work something out!!!

_Peace be Unto Ya'll_

that's right I said ya'll !!!!

I am now home, so this might not post so well....sorry but i can't afford the set up that my work has...what a feakin Network...but anyway.

I will end with this: IF WE ALL STRIVED TO BE RAGPICKERS NONE OF THIS WOULD BE UP FOR DISCUSSION.

Now if you are confused by what a Ragpicker is then pick up a book by Og Mandino "The Greatest Miracle in the World", now I never plug advertisements, but this book is so amazing, it is awesome no matter what Religion you follow...it is a book that should be taught in a pathetic public schools, but that is another topic for another thread...

Trust me ALL of Og's books are amazing, but seriously read it and if it doesn't change your life, then we can work something out!!!

_Peace be Unto Ya'll_

that's right I said ya'll !!!!

Frank,

I find you to be quite enlightened, I have been around the world, Europe and Africa as well as Japan, and in my travels have met so many types of people. I enjoyed all your posts and I think out of all the people on this website, since I have started reading it (2 months ago or so) You have made the most Valid of all points, Attack the Facts if you are unsatisfied with the truth then FIGHT 'it' not those who are misguided.

Not once did I see you be goaded into a sensless my 'reason is better than your reason', but you justified your personal beleifs by facts.

So many people either Muslim, Jew, Christian, Pagan, Wiccan, Hindu, [insert your Belief System Here] just spew opionins (sp) and other worthless none factual ravings...but you sir were quite the opposite, the Friend persona, did nothing more than try ((once again after being confronted by the very Dogma he spoke for)) to goad you into a debate on non-factual beleifs...you yourself stated it, I care nothing for the Religion of those who are religious..or something simular, no time to look it up now, I leave work in 6 min..

I just say thank you, I have been contemplating reading the Quaran (sp?) but have found that why open myself to something that would do little to better me...now before those who throw stones attack me, some of the Quaran might be nice and inspiring, but so is Science Fiction, or self-help books (the key to help is not in yourself...duh!!) but anyway thank you for not responding to the trash that blows when the wind picks up!!!

I hope you will e-mail me man...if you want to I'll give you mine, but I will not post it unless you will write..(the other PEACEFUL so-in-so) might decide to write also!!!

-Peace be unto You-

Why do we always have to blame the poor Devil? There is absolutely no evidence that he ever did anything. It's like with the Muslims in Gitmo. Give a fellow a bad name and hang him.

What would you have done if you had been passed over for promotion by a snivelling little apple polishing, suck up of very doubtful parentage who then went on to lay the intellectual framework for the Inquisition? Remember the line ......" only through me do you get to the Boss " .... How is that for restriction of free trade in ideas and monopolistic tendencies added to an exaggerated sense of one's own importance?

Yes, I forgot to mention that I have a really, really small penis.

Just thought you should know.

Qur’an Chapter 2 Verse 65:
And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (Jews): We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

Ishaq: 250
The bestial transformation occurred when Allah turned Jews into apes, despised.

Tabari VIII: 28
When the Messenger approached the Jews, he said, ‘You brothers of apes! Allah shamed you and cursed you.’

Qur’an Chapter 5 Verse 14:
From those too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the Message that was sent to them: so We estranged them, with enmity and hatred between one and the other, to the Day of Judgment. And soon will Allah show them what they have done.

Qur’an Chapter 5 Verse 41:
…Jews, - men who will listen to any lie…For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.

Qur’an Chapter 5 Verse 82:
Strongest among men in enmity (hatred) to the believers (Muslims) wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans.

Ishaq: 262
Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur’an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse.

Qur’an Chapter 5 Verse 51:
O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.

Qur’an Chapter 3 Verse 28:
Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming you.) But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah. [This verse teaches Muslims not to make friends with unbelievers, but allows them to feign friendship with unbelievers in order to prevent harm befalling themselves]

Ishaq: 364
Muslims, take not Jews and Christians as friends. Whoever protects them becomes one of them, they become diseased, and will earn a similar fate.

Sahih Muslim Book 037, Number 6665:
Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire. [All Muslims are saved from Hell because a Jew or a Christian will go to hell in their place]

for STOP:
islam speak - its always entertaining. you use terms but do not define them. one is your definition of terrorism, or innocent people.

innocent people are not people who are not islamic! jews who occupy the land you think you are entitled to - they are not innocent under islam speak.

or extreamist - that is another one. one cannot be extream in islam if you are defending islam.

i like that unjust acts thing - cute. what is an unjust act when islam thinks it is at war with someone else?

you sited 5.32 in part - here it is in the entire context. you will note that it is a poor adptation of the old testament version of cain and abel -

5.28": If you will stretch forth your hand towards me to slay me, I am not one to stretch forth my hand towards you to slay you surely I fear Allah, the Lord of the worlds:

"5.29": Surely I wish that you should bear the sin committed against me and your own sin, and so you would be of the inmates of the fire, and this is the recompense of the unjust.

"5.30": Then his mind facilitated to him the slaying of his brother so he slew him; then he became one of the losers

"5.31": Then Allah sent a crow digging up the earth so that he might show him how he should cover the dead body of his brother. He said: Woe me! do I lack the strength that I should be like this crow and cover the dead body of my brother? So he became of those who regret.

"5.32": For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

"5.33": The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

let is not forget:

"5.36": Surely (as for) those who disbelieve, even if they had what is in the earth, all of it, and the like of it with it, that they might ransom themselves with it from the punishment of the day of resurrection, it shall not be accepted from them, and they shall have a painful punishment.

"5.37": They would desire to go forth from the fire, and they shall not go forth from it, and they shall have a lasting punishment.

"4.104": And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain, and you hope from Allah what they do not hope; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
your 3.104 sounds good - unless you read the entire passage when they say jews and christians - people of the book - are not good.

3.98": Say: O followers of the Book! why do you disbelieve in the communications of Allah? And Allah is a witness of what you do.

"3.99": Say: O followers of the Book! why do you hinder him who believes from the way of Allah? You seek (to make) it crooked, while you are witness, and Allah is not heedless of what you do.

"3.100": O you who believe! if you obey a party from among those who have been given the Book, they will turn you back as unbelievers after you have believed.

"3.101": But how can you disbelieve while it is you to whom the communications of Allah are recited, and among you is His Apostle? And whoever holds fast to Allah, he indeed is guided to the right path.

"3.102": O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah with the care which is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslims.

"3.103": And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited, and remember the favor of Allah on you when you were enemies, then He united your hearts so by His favor you became brethren; and you were on the brink of a pit of fire, then He saved you from it, thus does Allah make clear to you His communications that you may follow the right way.

"3.104": And from among you there should be a party who invite to good and enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong, and these it is that shall be successful.

"3.105": And be not like those who became divided and disagreed after clear arguments had come to them, and these it is that shall have a grievous chastisement

your general statements are just that - general, and the terms are such that you can claim they dont apply to islamics, but only your hated enemies - jews and christians.

what you dont do is specifically condemn things like the beheading of pearl, blowing up jewish children in israel. i have seen cair do the same dance - islam rejects all violence at the innocents - and then in the next sentence condems israel for killing in response to pal attacks.

want to show us you mean it - then lets see some real rejections. here they are - i give everyone who says that they really want peace - to show it by rejecting these verses. to date not one islamic has done that, and neither will any one publically do it where they can be identified by other islamics.
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and practice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority."

and your item number 1 - well you use that to condemn attacks on islamic terrorists who hide, with their permission, in the civilian areas and think that its safe. its not.
number 2 is used to kill any islamic that wants peace with israel, of the US or any non islamic country then at war with anyone islamic.
number 3 - that is the best - you use that one and add "lawful" and then say that jews are not "lawful" authorities.

when you pray for defeat of extreamism and terrorism - you are talking about infidels as you consider yourselves to be centerists, and reasonable, and lawfully killing - as long as its a jew or christian you kill - ph did i forget the hindu's. they are worth a separate response. it will follow.

and you dont give a rats behind about interfaith harmony if you did your organization would be specific and say you believe that jews and christians and hindus have the same rights as islamics - and you can never say that because the koran teaches otherwise.

welcome to the big league - now try again.

I have a very selecetive view of humanity and way to much free time on my hands. We know that nobody has ever been commited violence in the name of Jesus.

Right?

Thank you.

FOR YOUR INFORMATION.........

The mythical ABRAHAM did not become a Jew

UNTIL he was tested (by being asked to sacrifice

Isaac).

BTW- JOB of Book-of-Job fame was NOT a JEW,
according to the legend.

friend:

after i answered all you questions you did not even answer the short one i asked you to answer.
now one talkas about hate? then you have never mentioned israel, not bin laden, not 911, not jewish children being blown up in food establishments, not arafat, not the pals, not hamas, not islamic jihad, not hesbula, the USS Cole, the two embassies being blown up, afganistan not giving up bin laden, nothing about these verses in the koran:
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and practice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority."

not the crusades - which islam started by attacking christians and jews for 400+ years -

The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.

SO DI YOU EVEN TALK WITH THEM?

If you make em change identities a lot, is that like helping someone with their karma? :)

No more questions for you, Frank.

The Muslim friends I have never speak the hate I hear from you.

You choose hate like the few people you ramble on about.

It continues to amaze me how the Koran somehow contains the Word of God.

Mohammed was an illiterate Arab. How did this work? It is obvious he could not proofread the book of Death to verify his hallucingenic messages from "mythical Gabriel". So are we to rely on the scriblings of scribes who obviously plagiarized from the all the ancient religions and then added their own agenda to justify the looting and pillaging of the lands of the non-believers?

Actually God is Love. Whatever you do out of Love you are doing for God. Even if you have all the "right dogma" but you aren't at least trying to live in Love then it really doesn't add up to nothing. Knowing God's Name really isn't the answer either because God is not the egomaniac that a lot of people think that He is. A lot of people are in for a great shock when they realize that Jesus said "Come follow Me" not to browbeat and condemn everyone else and act like you are so superior to everyone else. Judge not, condemn no one might sound like simple words and they are but they are not exactly easy to actually live by. God's Kingdom is for all of His children. God's Plan is His Plan and it will come to fruition. Don't we try to put God into a box and give it all kinds of "religious labels". God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of relilgious affiliations or lack thereof. Jesus is Who He said that He is and that is God Incarnate not a second-rate prophet like the god of islam says that He is. I do not hold it against Mohammad that he was deceived by the deceiver, do you? Christianity is not a religion but a covenential relationship between God and a person, but calling yourself a christian does not mean that you are one. So much of what I hear and read being said in Jesus's Name is such vile hatred, it is sad. Judaism is not a religion either but a coventential relationship between God and a people. Islam is a religion and it is a religion of world domination. Like I said God, the True Living Triune Triumphant God is a searcher of hearts and minds and it is important what you do and why you do it and also what you know. I happen to be the New Testament Moses, I didn't ask to be me but when I found out I was me I said Yes. God's Plan is for all of His children to be in His Kingdom and they will be. Like our brother Jesus told us night is coming, be ready. On the seventh day God blest, rested and made holy, it will get here. We happen to still be in the sixth day. In case anyone forgot Jesus won the keys to hell and death and they will be used, one day everyone will be glad that God has a Plan, and has had It before anything at all was created. Take Care, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Sounds a lot more like the Muslim neighbors *I've* known, Stop. As for people trying to play me up one side and down the other of their personal Crusades, well. funny world, ennit.

I say, if people want to really live what America's supposed to be about, then, that's great by me. Just seems that a lot of people who should know better are a bit confused, here, right now.

person called friend:
lets decide if we are talking about religion or conduct. in islam it would be acceptable religiously and temporaly.
so i would have to say that a christian would say that it should not be done but islam says its ok.

as far as equality of weapons - in islam you are allowed to attack an enemy not as well equipped but you cannot make peace with them unless they are stronger than you are. "Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). so according to islamic law - when the modern state of israel was one day old on may 14, 1948, when 5 combined islamic armies and the group now called pals - attacked israel - they were within their rights under islam. is that what you were talking about? i know of no requirement that there be equality in war.

as far as i know there is no prohibition - religious or otherwise about the number of weapons you produce. and i think it is acceptable to sell weapons under islam, as so many countries sell them to islamic terrorists who use them to kill women and children. now this is only my opinion but i see a diffeence in intentionally targeting women and children and hitting them because the bad guys are hiding among them. there are no free zones in war. so if there is a mosque - we dont bomb it. if you store weapons in it - its not a mosque anymore - its a weapons depo. if you store explosives and bullets in it - then its a amo depo. if you plan an attack in it - then its a command point. in all instances its not a mosque anymore and its a valid target.

lots of people are killed in war - so when you start one you have to understand that you might lose everything.

so do you have any more questions?

i have one for you - when will the leaders of islam reject those hateful verses that command hate and other vile acts, including forced conversions?

and lets not confuse religion requireing something and complying with those demands, and people doing something not required by religion.

and even though jesus said turn the other cheek - well we are not going to let ourselves be killed by anyone - even if we violate a teaching of jesus to defend ourselves and if possible kill our enemies. after all - we remember what they did to jesus.

from www.isna.net

The Fiqh Council of North America wishes to reaffirm Islam's absolute condemnation of terrorism and religious extremism.

Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians’ life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram – or forbidden - and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not “martyrs.”

The Qur'an, Islam's revealed text, states: " Whoever kills a person, unless [as punishment through due process] for murder or mischief in the land, it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind." (Qur'an, 5:32)

Prophet Muhammad said there is no excuse for committing unjust acts: "Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong to them. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong (even) if they do evil." (Al- Tirmidhi)

God mandates moderation in faith and in all aspects of life when He states in the Qur’an: “We made you to be a community of the middle way, so that (with the example of your lives) you might bear witness to the truth before all mankind.” (Qur’an, 2:143)

In another verse, God explains our duties as human beings when he says: “Let there arise from among you a band of people who invite to righteousness, and enjoin good and forbid evil.” (Qur’an, 3:104)

Islam teaches us to act in a caring manner to all of God's creation. The Prophet Muhammad, who is described in the Qur’an as “a mercy to the worlds” said: “All creation is the family of God, and the person most beloved by God (is the one) who is kind and caring toward His family."

In the light of the teachings of the Qur’an and Sunnah we clearly and strongly state:

1. All acts of terrorism targeting civilians are haram (forbidden) in Islam.

2. It is haram for a Muslim to cooperate with any individual or group that is involved in any act of terrorism or violence.

3. It is the civic and religious duty of Muslims to cooperate with law enforcement authorities to protect the lives of all civilians.

We issue this fatwa following the guidance of our scripture, the Qur’an, and the teachings of our Prophet Muhammad – peace be upon him. We urge all people to resolve all conflicts in just and peaceful manners.

We pray for the defeat of extremism and terrorism. We pray for the safety and security of our country, the United States , and its people. We pray for the safety and security of all inhabitants of our planet. We pray that interfaith harmony and cooperation prevail both in the United States and all around the globe.

FIQH COUNCIL OF NORTH AMERICA

Members
1. Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi
2. Dr. Abdul Hakim Jackson
3. Dr. Ahmad Shleibak
4. Dr. Akbar Muhammad
5. Dr. Deina Abdulkadir
6. Shaikh Hassan Qazwini
7. Dr. Ihsan Bagby
8. Dr. Jamal Badawi
9. Dr. Muhammad Adam Sheikh
10. Shaikh Muhammad Al- Hanooti
11. Shaikh Muhammad Nur Abdallah
12. Dr. Salah Soltan
13. Dr. Taha Jabir Alalwani
14. Shaikh Yahya Hindi
15. Shaikhah Zainab Alwani
16. Dr. Zulfiqar Ali Shah
17. Dr. Mukhtar Maghraoui
18. Dr. Nazih Hammad

Just on this:

" but i do find wicca - that has no order of any kind - silly - but you get to belive how you want."

You didn't find Wicca nothing. All you did in the course of that tirade was *lose* the use of your shift key.

You were willing to treat us 'seriously' enough when you were trying to tell us we should fear Muslims and pretend what's done to us in the name of Christianity is 'in our minds,'

Then tried to lie to our *faces* about what *we* believe.

Why should we believe you about Islam when you lie to us about ourselves?

God gave the Prophets the Truth and the Devil(s) came and distorted it. this is from islam. the prophets islam is talking about is abraham, etc. and the devils under islam are - all thgether class - jews - christians - hindus - idolitors and anyone not islamic.
do you see how islam says something and then gives is a spin that isloamic see but the rest of us think means something else.

"3.67": Ibrahim [WE SAY ABRAHAM] was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.

"3.68": Most surely the nearest of people to Ibrahim are those who followed him and this Prophet and those who believe and Allah is the guardian of the believers.

"3.69": A party of the followers of the Book [THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT] desire that they should lead you astray, and they lead not astray but themselves, and they do not perceive.

"3.70": O followers of the Book! Why do you disbelieve in the communications of Allah while you witness (them)?

"3.71": O followers of the Book! Why do you confound the truth with the falsehood and hide the truth while you know?

"3.72": And a party of the followers of the Book say: Avow belief in that which has been revealed to those who believe, in the first part of the day, and disbelieve at the end of it, perhaps they go back on their religion.

"3.73": And do not believe but in him who follows your religion. Say: Surely the (true) guidance is the guidance of Allah -- that one may be given (by Him) the like of what you were given; or they would contend with you by an argument before your Lord. Say: Surely grace is in the hand of Allah, He gives it to whom He pleases; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

"3.74": He specially chooses for His mercy whom He pleases; and Allah is the Lord of mighty grace.

"3.75": And among the followers of the Book there are some such that if you entrust one (of them) with a heap of wealth, he shall pay it back to you; and among them there are some such that if you entrust one (of them) with a dinar he shall not pay it back to you except so long as you remain firm in demanding it; this is because they say: There is not upon us in the matter of the unlearned people any way (to reproach); and they tell a lie against Allah while they know.

"3.76": Yea, whoever fulfills his promise and guards (against evil) -- then surely Allah loves those who guard (against evil).

"3.77": (As for) those who take a small price for the covenant of Allah and their own oaths -- surely they shall have no portion in the hereafter, and Allah will not speak to them, nor will He look upon them on the day of resurrection nor will He purify them, and they shall have a painful chastisement.

"3.78": Most surely there is a party amongst those who distort the Book with their tongue that you may consider it to be (a part) of the Book, and they say, It is from Allah, while it is not from Allah, and they tell a lie against Allah whilst they know.

"3.79": It is not meet for a mortal that Allah should give him the Book and the wisdom and prophethood, then he should say to men: Be my servants rather than Allah's; but rather (he would say): Be worshipers of the Lord because of your teaching the Book and your reading (it yourselves).

"3.80": And neither would he enjoin you that you should take the angels and the prophets for lords; what! would he enjoin you with unbelief after you are Muslims?

"3.81": And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom -- then an apostle comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.

"3.82": Whoever therefore turns back after this, these it is that are the transgressors.

"4.46": Of those who are Jews (there are those who) alter words from their places and say: We have heard and we disobey and: Hear, may you not be made to hear! and: Raina, distorting (the word) with their tongues and taunting about religion; and if they had said (instead): We have heard and we obey, and hearken, and Unzurna it would have been better for them and more upright; but Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little.

so a statement so innocent when you first look at it with a western understanding - you now know better - for the koran again pretends that abraham was not a jew and that it is jews and christians that lie about the book.

islam is hate and nothing else.

i would like islam to quit hateing so we can live in peace - but after 1400 years of showing nothing but hate - i do not hold out any hope.

can you imagine 25% of american islamics think murdering little boys and girls - as long as they are jews - is acceptable conduct. they did not learn that in school here - they learned it at home and in their mosques.

Is bombing an Iraqi city "acceptable"?

Do you know what that is? That's dropping a bomb that may miss it's target and may be in an area where there are women and children.

What if you're being attacked by an enemy and you don't have an army or modern weapons to defend yourself?

What if your countries produces more weapons than the rest of the world combined and sells them to other countries and they use them to kill women and children?

You're going to have to accept that there is a lot of finger pointing that can go around in this world and that you can either be a part of the problem or try to be part of the solution.

You can't save the world, only yourself. But let's try to save the world...

thank you for asking but i have a life, a very nice and safe life, with lots of loving family. and i have never had to tell any of them that their god requires them to hate anyone much less harm them.
but i was correct - as a good islamic you refuse to refute those hateful verses found in the koran.
and i do find it strange that someone who is so into islam and the hate it carries - tells someone else that they need help.

25% of american islamics think suicide murder is acceptable. you know what that is - when they strap a bomb on themselves and walk into a ice cream parlor and killing old women and their grand children. or maybe a bus loaded of little girls going to school. or men standing in line for a job to feed their families.
i wonder where they got the idea it was ok - maybe the koran or the immans who teach it?
everytime i post things the islamics act as if no one ever heard of islam being violent - well wake up. name one islamic country that is not violent - and i meand violent by conforming to the demands of the koran - not everyday run of the mill violents that is not religion associated.

If Islam is truly a religion of peace, why do we not hear from Muslim religious leaders, condemning in the strongest possible terms the many acts of violence and brutality (for example the stoning of an innocent teenager!) that are committed in the name of Islam? Perhaps a fatwah or two might be appropriate here.

Frank,
Forget what Islam or other religions need to do. You know what, you need to get a life. And some good ideas to have a meaningful dialogue with people. Oh, and while we are at it, an open mind would help too...
Cheers!

good write soulman

moral/spiritual/cultural imperialism is just as disastrous as imperialism itself

i have said before that i dont care about the religious part of anyones religion. but i do find wicca - that has no order of any kind - silly - but you get to belive how you want.
the temporal is what i object to. believe how you want - until it impacts me. its not the belief part of islam i find fault with. yes i think its darn absurd that the god of the old and new testament decided to have a new religion and kill off the only two groups that actually believed in him - the jews and christians. sort of dumb that as a reward for believing he will kill you. but that is their right to believe it. yes they can even hate - that too is their right - and a demand of islam. yes they can feel they are the only path to paradise or heaven. no problem there. its that part of the koran that demands more and that more acts on others. such as kidnapping, torture, cutting off body, holding people for ransom, murder and forced conversions. THOSE ARE THE PROBLEMS. and no one can seriously say that they are not problems in islam as islamic DEMANDS that islamics actually do those things.
yes there are silling things to all religion. i have never quite understood original sin. i have heard it described as god, knowing that man was going to sin, let it happen, then to obtain forgiveness of himself, he put his only son on earth - so that other people he created - and put into motion - would kill him. sort of like suicide isn't it. but christians can believe it. i have no problem with the belief.
neither jews or christians require murder to be a part of their religion, although there are many who claim to be part of that religion, who do just that. but they are not christians if they murder.
so - i say - again
is you are a good islamic - you are a bad person. if you believe that islam can live in peace with jews and christians and hindu's and pagans, and everyone else - well you are a bad islamic - but you are a lot closer to being a good person.
and i went to the website of pam taylor - you know - the progressive islamic site. this is how progressive she is - she believes in equality for everything - EXCEPT RELIGION! that is consistent with islam - but inconsistent with being a good person.
i can say that i hate people who hate - but i loe people that dont hate. i love my neighbor as myself - maybe even more.
how many fewer wars would there have been if over trhe last 1400 years those who follow islam were told that after the love or god the most important command was to love your neighbor, instead of hating jews, christians, hindu's, idolitors, that kidnapping them, holding them for ransom, torture and cutting off body parts, rape, murder and forced conversions, to be the command of god?
islam may be here - but it would not have expanded by war. yes we would still have had to deal with the king and queen of spain for the inquisition - but there would never have been a crusade, there would not have been a reason for one.
now if history tells me anything the next thing i will get are misstatements about the old testament, a false assertion that jesus told someone to kill - when he was just telling a story when one of the characters killed - and being called a bigot - for saying what the koran teaches. oh, i forgot - they will also say i took it out of context, but will never manage to give us what context where it makes those hateful commands ok.
what islam needs is a reformation. elimination of all of the hateful verses and acceptance of those of other faith. well maybe not acceptance, but at least not kill them.

It's difficult for us to put into terms what God is. Even the word "God" requires defintion. Definition being one of words which eventutally reflects our ego. Opps what happened to God.
If we can agree that what we are experiencing is the result of a Creator, then that is enough. The how, why, when; the rules, disciplines... are our human desire.
Let's meet in the afterlife and have a laugh...

You get peace when you can, and will, agree to agree. You can not infinitely agree on matters of taste or religion. A few thousand years of recorded history makes this quite clear. So keep religion private, personal and protected and reserve our efforts for the advancement of civilization in balence with our environment.

A recent survey of US Muslims says about 23% believe suicide bombings may be justified. A pretty high percentage for a religion of peace.
40% believe that Arab men did not participate in 911. A pretty high percentage of U. S. Muslims in denial. If Islam is a religion of peace, why do we not hear its leaders condemning violence?

" Nasir Chattha:

It is a wrong perception in West that Islam promotes violence. The word Islam itself means to enter into peace. No denying the fact that there are some obscurantist groups who are determined to give a bad name to the religion of Islam for their political motives."

FWIW, Nasir, I don't believe *them,* either. :) Peace. :)

Well stated. The only thing I'd appreciate even more, is if the religious would just leave the non-religious alone. Most of the time when we say "religious freedom" we mean the freedom to choose between religions. But what happened to choosing no religion? God endowed man with free will right? If man wills himself into being religious (or non-religious) that is part of God's gift, right? that we get to choose?

I mean... "see it" when "it" is there.

Or do people have to "see" the "Word" for them to be about something to "believe" in... :)

Even if they didn't "see" it.

Back to you, Thomas.

It is a wrong perception in West that Islam promotes violence. The word Islam itself means to enter into peace. No denying the fact that there are some obscurantist groups who are determined to give a bad name to the religion of Islam for their political motives.

" Peacetroll:

John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

I guess you can believe *that* when you see it, right?

Can you? :P :)

John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

SALMUND,

Rewording your opening statement: "God did not reveal "diddlysquat" to the prophiteers of religion who continue to devise new names for the "demons of the demented".

Or possibly that 'I refuse to think about it that way' is a way to 'just know...' But, as you like, Hewitt. :)

You say that we create an image of God independent of the real God. How is that distinguishable from creating an image of God when there is no God? You say that God is good and great, but how would you know?

You have correctly identified a problem--how do I know if I am speaking to God or if I am speaking to me--but you have no solution. "I just know" is just another way of saying, "I refuse to think about it."

*little salute to Silv*

It's Ok, ...actually, they don't usually close the threads, you can still get to them when they put up a new main page. Usually via 'past questions,' and then, 'all panelist responses.' :)

Anyway, I understand you're one of Terra's students, so consider that dudes like that are in their way our teachers, even if by negative example. So happens I've learned a *lot* from that particular 'school,' but, what they most want is to colonize your worldview.

They want everyone in their 'zero-sum God-contest world,' you might say: Zero-sum: 'For one to win, someone else must lose,' when the real 'winner' is the 'game' that keeps everyone spending their energy fighting over who they should sign their lives away to.

There isn't a finite amount of 'goodness' available to the world, and that's before you even start squabbling over publication rights. ;)

As for gender-references, well, the images are for *us,* and if like an 'Absolutely Male' 'God' wants to do drag for my benefit, who am I anyone to complain? ;)

It's actually interesting how some systems insist the 'Male' 'God' is truly sexless, but get in a twist about the pronouns if you say 'She.' :)

It's really different worlds we live in, but that doesn't mean they really have to be 'contradictory.'

Frank-

I wrote a response to you on Starhawk’s thread, an epistle of biting insight, scathing wit and righteous indignation that you would not soon forget. Upon reflection I deleted it. I consider you “not worthy of the compliment of rational dissent” (tip of the hat to Jane Austen).

Therefore, I am wrapping you up in pink and yellow polka-dot paper, putting a big purple satin bow on your head, and giving you to the Lady. Perhaps she will have more patience with you than I.

Blessed Be.

"He created us in beautiful diversity so that we could come to know each other and He continues to guide whomever is open to His guidance."

If the gender reference were removed I would agree with this statement 100%, it’s a matter of mind set. However the basic intent that I get from it is three fold:

Since we were created as wonderfully diverse creatures we should have the ability to co-exist.

Our seeking for a deeper meaning is not something that should cause dissention.

If we are open-minded it should bring us together not drive us apart.

These are things I can fully agree with.

Paganplace thank you, I haven't been coming here all that long but the hate mongering is already old. You manage to respond without getting overly emotional. I wish I could manage to do the same. I try but it seems that by the time I push the send button I have let an overly large amount of irritation into, what was intended as, an attempt at calmly discussing differences.

I do apologize for not responding to you in the last thread. They closed it before I had time to do so.

Silvlaro

Very well said, Mr Salman Ahmad. You are right on target about how religions fight amongst themselves to claim exclusivity, how their way to God is the only "right" way and how their God is the only one "worth woshipping". Kind of ignorant, if you think about it. If one truly understands the basic principles of any religion for that matter, these arguments would never come up and /or sustain and the world would be a much better, happy and peaceful place.

Frank, you do realize that this guy's saying

Song for you, Frank:

"You tell me this town ain't got no heart. Well, well, well, you can never tell.
The sunny side of the street is dark. Well, well, well, you can never tell.
Maybe that's cause it's midnight, in the dark of the moon besides.

"Maybe the dark is from your eyes.
You know you got such dark eyes!

"Nothin' shakin' on Shakedown Street. Used to be the heart of town.
Don't tell me this town ain't got no heart. You just gotta poke around."

--The Grateful Dead

What do you *want,* Frank? For one, he's a musician, ...for another, he has a non-hateful vision of what he thinks Islam ought to be.

As I often point out, if you judged your own religion by your own standards, you'd renounce it.

All I see is someone thinking everything means 'Hate Muslims,' and trying to spam down anything that says different.

*Reaaaal* productive, yah.

no we need monty pythons solution. we command you be hanged until you are happy. in this case we can say happy.

Let's change all books to be happy and sweet, just like humanity is.

one must ask - does everyone define peace the same way? the west looks at peace as the absence of war. islam defines world peace as a world where there is only one religion - islam.
you get groups like pam's group about progressive islamics - and while the mission statement talks about freedom - they seem to have forgotten freedom of religion as part of what they believe.
you may be a good person - but if you are - its because you are a bad islamic - because you do not hate jews and christians and hindus. if you do hate them, as is required by the koran - they your posts are lies.
what islam needs is a further refinement in the koran - eliminating the demand for hate and killing and forced conversion. then there will be peace, but not if islam keeps to the koran.

Amen brother....amen.

BTW, the offer still stands. If you ever find yourself in San Diego, grab your 12 string and drop by the condo or the station for a jam session.

Aqualung!!