Keeping "I" Out of My Way

the beauty and love that is the koran:
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and practice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority."
or the islamics crying over the crusades when they started them. here is a little short history about that:
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.

What a charming thread.

Religion causes more problems than anything else in the history of the World.

Excuse me while I go throw up. You humans are amongst the most vile of animals.

of course you love the koran and the hate it spews forth - islam is an evil religion that calls upon the worst that humans can be and it has found a follower in you.
at least you are honest about how you feel.

Frank,

The Quran is beautiful as a moral guide, as a salvation meassage, and as a work of art with its poetry and prose. Whenever I listened to it being recited, I get goose bumps and tears start rolling down my cheeks; that's how beautiful and powerful the Quran is. The only thing vile that I can think of is your language and the satanic religion you call chrisianity of which you are a member.

anno - thank you for the site - but i get my information from a number of places. when it coes to islam getting it from translations of islamic writings is pretty informative.
and do you accept those vile verses noted in the koran that demand hate, etc., at i noted above?

Concerned,

Thanks for providing the reference on Buddhism. From what I know, it's accurate, succinct and helpful to those interested in the subject.

Regards.

Frank,

I did not know you have been reading outside of jihad watch which is financed by the neocons and conservative hate mongering evangelicals. No wonder you are a moron. Now you are quoting atheist bloggers too.
atheism.about.com/b/a/009143.htm

maybe i missed it but are the buddhists currently trying to take over the world, forcing their beliefs on someone, anyone?
here is a funny story:
Islam vs. Buddhism: Grudge Match
Ghazi Khankan, executive director of the Council on American Islamic Relations wants an apology. Apparently Rev. Jisei Nagasaka, a Buddhist priest, has said that "Islam is a false religion" and that another priest said that Allah "is a figment of the imagination." This is just all too much for Khankan who has treated these comments as attacks, as a contradiction to the traditional image of Buddhists as peaceful, and as offensive to all the world's Muslims.
According to New York Newsday:

After a news conference in front of the Buddhist temple - Nichiren Shoshu - on Beech Avenue in Flushing, Khankan and other Muslim leaders delivered a petition containing 388 signatures to a temple official. ...While the statements in question were promptly removed from the Web site after letters and phone calls from Muslims, the council said Nagasaka's comments can only be rectified with better understanding and an apology. An apology for what - for stating what many Buddhists honestly believe? I'm sure that most Muslims consider Buddhism to be a false religion - would it be an attack for a Muslim to say that? Of course not. There are certainly better and worse ways of expressing such a sentiment, but assuming that the context wasn't offensive, then Muslims shouldn't be demanding an apology for an adherent of one religion saying that another religion isn't as good.

what of love - The Quran does not mention Allah's love towards his people, or anyone else for that matter. moho must have forgotten that part.

now tell me if this makes since to anyone.
god of the old testament spends about 2500 years protecting the children of abraham - through slavery and wars, to the promised land and then promises them a missah - from the line of david.
then comes jesus a jew - who said love god and love your neighbors as yourself.
and lastly we have islam - who says hate everyone - especially christians and jews - who are already following allah - if we believe that allah is the same god of the old and new testament - and as the only people in the world who believe in him as god - they need to be butchered and killed.

now the penalty for me saying that - is death. as a matter of fact the penalty of me saying everything i said is death. and the penalty for everything everyone has said about love those not islamic - or acceptance of them - well that is death too.

here it is in their own spoken words. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo&mode=related&search=

or maybe mickey mouse preaching hate and killing jews. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZEGsnWZKh8

who in their right mind would ever defend islam. not islam in the abstract which is bad enough - but islam in practice, which is like have 1.1 billion nazis waiting for hitler to give the order to kill anyone not in the party.

i have said this before and i will say it again. if you are a good islamic you are an evil person for you believe that god commanded you to do the most vile and base things to your fellow humans and promises you a reward for doing it.

Norrie,

Danke Schoen!!

Her conclusions i.e (Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, Buddha's historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life) are substantiated at http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM so I will use that reference from now on.

Concerned,

I don't know if you should accept Alexandra David-Neel as an authority on the Buddha's life. Here's an extract from her life story:

Alexandra David-Neel - Mystic and Explorer:

The Creation of a Tulpa

At Kum Bum she managed to create a 'tulpa', a phantom produced by intense concentration of thought and the repetition of relevant mystical rites over a period of months. She created a stout, phantom monk, whose form gradually became less ghost like and more life like. Before long the phantasm was accompanying her on her travels and behaving almost like a normal human being. However, he gradually began to change from a fat, jolly monk into a leaner more sinister character, and started to escape from her control. The tulpa was seen by others in her travelling party, proving it to have an objective existence outside of Alexandra's own mind, but, to avoid serious problems with her creation, Alexandra decided to 'dissolve' it. But this proved extremely difficult as the phantom clung desperately on to his life; she only succeeded in getting rid of him after six months of hard mental concentration."

Regards.

every time an islamic wants to pretend to be reasonable on a topic i want people to know the truth of the writer and what that person believes and if the author is actually believeable. islam looks at the world through the glasses of islam and i want anyone who deals with islamics to realize that. every pretend moderate islamic is not moderate as they will never reject those hateful parts of the koran. not the entire koran but those verses i have noted above.
the problem with islamics is that they will never reject any part of the koran, and that includes those parts that require hate, kidnapping, holding for ranson, torture, cutting off body parts, rape, murder and forced conversions. why? because they actually say that their god does not just allow it, it commands it. and it also commands war until the entire world is islamic.
when you point out those hateful verses in the koran they call you violent and angry, until you remind them that they are not my words but from their koran.
then they tell you the words are taken out of context, but never tell you what context those hateful verses are acceptable. one time i was actually responded to and the context were a few preceeding verses in which their god allegedly said that the jews deserved it, so it was ok to do it.
then then act like you are the only one to ever think that those verses mean what the say so you show them the hisotry that lead up to the crusades and they say they were following their god and why go way back in history. so you show them from the crusades to 1900 and they say you are still talkinb about the past. so you mention the armenian genocide where almost 2,000,000 christian armenians were murdered by the islamic turks and the answer is they deserved it.
you show them islamic prefesors writings about islam being in a religious war with every nation they border and they say its just a coincidence.
then they will say that the old and new testament shows the same thing and when you point out that jews and christians are not required to do it they will point to where jesus was using a story to show a point and pretend it was jesus ordering christians to murder.
but the best is when they get insulted and tell you that no one believes the way you do and that islam is peaceful and then you show them video of islamics in the mosques teaching what they before said did not exist, was out of context, and a product of my imagination.
but one thing they will never do is reject those verses so vile and hateful they put islam in a constant state of war with the infidels.
every pretend reasonable islamic may actually get a kaffur - infidel - to think islam is a peaceful religion spoiled by a few bad apples, because they hae never read the koran and dont know what it says. they actually think islam wants a world of peace because some reasonable looking guy or a big eyed woman in islamic dress - says it wants peace. but they never realise that peace is defined in islam and the world under islam, all other religions gone, and islamic law run by inmans and from the mosque is the only law of the land.

and you keep this "isalm is a peaceful religion crap". and i keep posting from the koran to show its not. from the past history of islam to show its not. from current history to show that now its not. and now from the mouth of islam itself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo&mode=related&search=

and when you quit posting the same lies i will not have to post teh truth over and over.
and when will you just admit that the demands of islam are evil and base and vile to anyone who claims to be civilized.

Actually, at this point, the only 'discussion' is, 'Why won't Frank stop spamming the same stuff about 'How Bad Islam Is' on all threads, whatever the topic here.

I've asked how you think this is in any way helpful.
What you expect anyone to do about it.
No answer, there.

Clearly, it's not helpful or intended to be: You've stopped even bothering to relate your spam in even a token way to the topics, here.

Now, whatever you're proposing to do, you're just saying, 'They started it?'

Started *what?* Do you even know?

from the mouth of islam in the west

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo&mode=related&search=

you ask - so why rush it? its islam that is attacking the world, not the other way around. no one is rushing anything, im just not falling for that islamic lie about wanting to live in peace. they dont want peace. notice that islamics never have treaties they have truces. why? so - if history is any sign of their intent - it is to give them time to rearm and try again.
remember the koran says never make peace with an enemy you can kill, but you can if you are not stronger then they are. history shows us that islam will just attack again.
and you talk of islamic rads - but they dont appear to be rad about anything - they are following the plane words of the koran and the god who gave them the orders. kill you enemies. seems like everyday islam to me.
i am not spoiling for a war - islam is. my personal feelings are live and let live - if you find hate in my words - blame islam - im just quoting the koran.
you keep trying to turn the conversation - but the words of hate and death are all on the side of the koran - the acts of war for religion have been the acts of islam against the world. even the crusades were the result of 400 years of islam attacking christians until they finally had enough.
so do i want a war with islam - no. will i back away from one, give one inch to prevent one - not on your life. not one inch, not one breath, nothing. i grant islam no rights over me or how i live and never will. but i give no other religion that right either. what i give to religion i give - it is not the result of a demand.
as i have said before, i would never be part of a religion that in its founding documents told me that i had to hate and murder to be part of it, which is why i would never be islamic.

"people think im pushing a particular religion, im not. i dont care what you believe. every religion believe that they are the true path [someone said janists dont but i have no actual knowledge about that] and i can see that."

You're also leaving out just about every Pagan and Buddhist and Taoist and aboriginal tradition out there.

The 'True Path' emphasis is mostly the hallmark of a select group of religions that don't get along too well with others. This obsessive railing at the Muslim brand when people are trying to talk about other things is getting tedious. It seems the only people you're railing at in any position to do anything but fear over it are Muslims trying to do some *good* in interfaith discussion.

I think as Americans, at least, we've got to look at our *own* part in these particular impasses.

We can have an open and just society and public life, or not. If 'Islam' is as irrevocably-bad as you insist, it's just going to come to war, anyway, one of these days, so why rush it.

The lines might not be drawn quite where you think, for that matter.

Too often, these Muslim radicals have been supported and encouraged by Christians in power over here, out of a combination of thinking, 'At least they keep the women and queers and Commies in line,' ...and the fact that this radicalism has been used to divert popular resistance in the 'Arab' world away from the convenient dictators we support... and, shortsightedly, *onto us.*

I mean, what are you expecting, here, that more irrationality is supposed to help? Some kind of Red Dawn scanario? I don't think so. But if it did happen it's not like anyone would lack a reason to fight.

Some vague 'Global Islamic Threat' maybe?

What's going to help, there? *Actually* turn it into the clash of cultures the radicals are spoiling for?

Don't think so, there, either.

The more America futzes around with feeling that religion is going to make bad policies miraculously turn into good ones after all, the more precious time we waste while creating the *conditions* for war: namely, resources. You bet someone's gonna turn around and sanctify such wars, but that's not a good time to be thinking theology will solve anything.

Heck, if half the effort people in America who read their books a certain way have spent on saying that I 'need killing' or suppressing were spent on paying attention to what *we* do, then, well, we wouldn't be looking at these threatening clouds in the first place.

So tell me again what you think you're accomplishing, here, except perhaps trying to deflect the blame onto 'the other?'

andrea - you aksed a godo question so i will give you a real answer.
wike is not subject to any verification or peer review. anyone with a password can edit it. that is the problem. now it may be a good starting point for some general information but always go beyond it and look at other source data. but it may give you a general outline - the operative word if MAY.
and i dont cap because i dont want to. i dont use ' or ; or anything like that because i consider this non formal writing, and i dont need to.
and what appears to be so wrong in quoting the koran? im called angry and evil for quoting it. so what does that make the person who said it was the word of god? or that god for that matter?
what appears to be wrong with asking islamics who say they want peace to reject passages so evil that they could have been written by hitler or stalin. i would never be part of a religion that REQUIRED people to hate, kidnapp, ransom, torture, cut off body parts, rape, murder and force conversions, as part of the holy writing of that religion. sounds more like the devil than any god i would ever pray to. how about you? does your god demand that of you?
and its not that it is demanded but that it is done, every day, by its followers. what kind of religion is that?
people think im pushing a particular religion, im not. i dont care what you believe. every religion believe that they are the true path [someone said janists dont but i have no actual knowledge about that] and i can see that. no problem. im more than a little concerned about the hate part, but if your religion wants hate - well there is nothing anyone can do about that.
its the other parts what concern their conduct in the temporal world that bother me. its the kidnapp, ransom, torture, cut off body parts, rape, murder and force conversions, that i object to. and that is what islam is doing, has done and will continue to do, unless it makes so major changes.
yes there have been those who said they were christians that were vile and evil. hitler was a catholic alter boy. he was pure evil and notice that the christain world attack and destroyed him and those that supported him. what did the islamic world do with hilter? they embraced him. after all he was killing jews and did not appear to be much of a christian as far as they were concerned. http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/ is a link with photographs of islamic leaders and the nazi's. hitler was so inspired by their hate of jews that the largest ss division outside of germany was in bosnia. remember them - we fought for them a few years ago and were going to be home by christmas - 1997.
so the problem is not their belief - its their conduct, which ahs not changed in 1400 years.
i know - what about the crusades you will ask? here is why they started. dont you think that 400 years of being attacked might call for a strong response? The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.
and you will say what about the spanish inquisition? well it was not part of the bible now commanded by the god of abraham or jesus. but here are some facts you can look up. the church had the order of the holy inquisition. it was charged with finding out about heresy. what people forget is that it was not controlled by the church. the members were appointed by the kings of the various countries and the pope rubber stamped it. in spain the king needed money and lands so he used it to obtain them and what he did was evil, vile and base. it will be condemned by all good christains everywhere and for all times. in acting like he did he violated every christian doctrine, and became the instrument of the devil. but strangly enough, if he had been islamic he would have been a hero becasue everything done in spain is part of what is ordered by the god of islam to be done. what does that say about islam and its relationship to the other people in the world?
and let me talk about the god, as other religions look at it. i make no determination for anyone. but look at the god of the old testament. the god of abraham and isac, of moses of david of solomon. a god that spent about 2500 years protecting the jews, calling them his people, at least according to the jews. this god even said he would bring a messiah to them, a jew. well here comes jesus. he was a jew, of that there is no doubt. his mother was a jew as was his grandmother - which means hitler would have killed him. there is a dispute about who his father is, but work with me here. the god of jesus was the same god of abraham. jesus never said to hurt the jews for not believing in his as his kingdom was not of this world. and when asked what the most important command was - remember there are about 260 - or so - jesus said love your lord your god with all your heart. but then he added that there was another that was almost as important - to love your neighbor as yourself. wow - pretty heavey for back then.
ythen 600 years later we get moho. he says he is the decendent of abraham through his sex with hagar - and their son ishmael. now this happened about 2500 bc - so the story would be 3,000 years old by then. and the funny thing is - there is not one bit of evidence that he was correct. NOTHING. no tribe with a verbal history going back in time. no writings - nothing at all. and now moho is told by his god - that he is the god of abraham and jesus - people who are already following that same god - but now moho must tell people that god wants all jews and christians not only hated, but kidnapp, ransom, torture, cut off body parts, rape, murder and force conversions into belief in a god they already believe in. does that make any since to you?
does it make since that the messenger of the god of islam picks someone who, after being picked, thinks that at 40 he should have sex with a 9 year old child? is that the same god of the old and new testaments?
does it make since that the all knowing god of islam thinks the trinity is the father, son and mary, when the rest of the christian would thought it to be father, son and holy spirit? how did the all knowing god of moho get that one wrong?
but the fact that islam is internally inconsistent makes me no mind, its their relationship with the rest of the world.
and even though there are those islamics who smile and tell you they want world peace - they forget to tell you that they consider peace to only consist of a world ruled by islam and the koran and there can never be peace until that happens.

"The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

Well, I don't think Hinduism is founded on the idea that everything said about Gods is 'fair and rational.'

Much more responsibility for people being like *that* is placed on people. Certainly, Christianity hasn't entirely gotten over its own ideas of caste: in fact, just look at today, or South Africa, or recently, America.

What I understand of the caste system in India is that much of the worst of the modern form of it was actually shaped by the British Raj, and Muslim domination related to that: to wit, cultural interference and trying to codify custom into law. Not to paint too rosy a picture of it, or anything, ..not my picture to paint at all, really, but I assure you the matter's more complex than your statement seems to imply.

Viejita,

To be brief, I have been "Crossanized" and consider myself to be a "New Reality Catholic" recently liberated from limbo and original sin.

Concerned
I've been around this site long enough to have some respect for your views, but I really am more interested in hearing your answers at this point than in answering your questions. I suspect our perspectives are different enough that my answers would be irrelevant to you, plus we've argued before so you pretty much know where I'm coming from. (If not, I made no impression the first few times, so why continue.)
Frank Collins
I can't answer for Moslems, since I'm a Christian. Surprised?

What's so wrong with Wikipedia? We're all online...and it's handy. If you need better sources, look them up.

PS, Mr. Collins, if *you* wish to be taken seriously, change up your rhetoric, and try some capitalization.

concerned - if you want to be taken seriously dont every site wikipedia as a source for anything.
the closest thing we have to the event is the bible and that is what i use for the statements of fact contained therein.
and since those closest in time to the writings appear to confirm their authenticity i will go with that until i have proof to the contrary. proof is not someone today saying it is not so.
i dont think i ever said jesus was god or held any place anywhere. i have compared the people of the old testmament, new testament and the koran.
when i read that the koran demands hate, murder and violent conversions i believe that is what they believe. and as to being able to read and write, moho the child rapist was as dumb as a stone. his fake god was not written about until long after his death.
as to whether i believe that a child rapist is a messenger of god, the answer is not for a second. but you can it you want. i dont care about that. what i do care about religion is its demands on people in their relationships to other human beings. only islam demands hate and murder. the others are benign.

Frank,

You really need to extend your single book library. The Bible is not an historical document.

With respect to the illiteracy of Jesus:

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus for an analysis of Jesus' life to include his illiteracy.

Also, there is only one place in the NT that suggests Jesus could read i.e. Luke 4:16. This passage is not attested to in any other NT passage or in any other related document making it a later addition or poor translation as per most NT scholars' analyses.

See also Professor Crossan and Professor Reed's book, Excavating Jesus, p. 30.

See also Professor Bruce Chilton's commentary in his book, Rabbi Jesus, An Intimate Biography, pp 99-101- An excerpt:

"What Luke misses is that Jesus stood in the synagogue as an illiterate mamzer in his claim to be the Lord's anointed".

It is very unfortunate that Jesus was illiterate for it resulted in many gospels and epistles being written years after his death by non-witnesses. This resulted in significant differences in said gospels and epistles and with many embellishments to raise Jesus to the level of a deity to compete with the Roman gods and emperors. See Raymond Brown's 878 page book, An Introduction to the New Testament, (Luke 4:16 note on p. 237) for an exhaustive review of the true writers of the gospels and epistles.

Again you need to read the books of contemporary NT scholars to see why they made these conclusions. Unfortunately, you are boxed in the literal words of the Bible. You can easily escape by reading the works of the contemporary NT exegetes.

Mr. Collins-

May I suggest that when you post in the future, in the interest of saving time and bandwidth, just write "ad nauseam". We'll know exactly what you mean.

Frank:

Fact about Jesus:

The Bible doesn't describe him as a carpenter. His father Joseph is described as working with his hands. He could have been any number of differnt things. Carpenter just seems to fit, for some reason.

veijata - you cant seem to answer the questions either.
what is it with islam and islamics? why cant you tell us - publically - that you reject those portions of the koran that demand hate, rape, murder, and forced conversions?

i want to comment on some facts you goit wrong.
"Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter"
jesus had to read and write - he read from the torah in the bible so he was not illiterate.
as for bing a carpenter - that was pretty high on the food chain. if you wanted a door, table, seats, plow, harness for your animal for farming, whatever it was - if it was made out of wood, and for the common people it was, you had a carpenter make it. no mas production in 1 bc. so being a carpenter was doing pretty good.
as for you belief in the religious part - no comment here.

Viejita,

It is all about the foundations/founders of religion and it is important that the reality of religious foundations is understood in order to have a satisfactory life.

Once again:

And what has history, scriptural text reviews and archeology taught us about these foundations/founders?

1. Abraham founder of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of his sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, possibly hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism - (from a Hindu website) "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

"Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life (Alexandra David-Neel, Buddhism: fts Doctrines and fts Methods, New York: St. Martids Press, 1977, p. 15). "

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders/foundations of said rules of life.

Frank does a pretty good job thwarting discussion all on his own. As for Jacob, at least we know where his heart lies.

Concerned: We all know what you reject, and why, but I'm interested in knowing what gives you strength. Is it research and rational thought? Is it a liberated feeling (which is in your handle absent from your comments) that makes you so eager to convince others? I'm not being sarcastic or anything, you seem to have the potential to give a passionate and articulate defense of your rational approach.

Frank,

I think they're "turning the other cheek" as some would say. I don't think that Jacob's posts are some vast conspiracy to thwart your discussions.

notice how the islamics never actually respond they just change the topic or have that fool jacob fill up space between comments critical to islam so that you cant see them unless you go hunting for them.

Salman,

Professor Crossan and the other Jesus Seminarians (three members are On Faith panelists) and their books have made my life quite satisfactory since now I have a much better idea of who Jesus actually was. The embellishments have been deleted leaving only the reality of it all.

Which brings us to the reality of Islam. Islam apparently requires the belief in angels. Do you believe in angels?

My analyses:(previously posted),

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "
http://www.heart7.net/spirit/at.html

"Fairies are apparently fallen angels (check Google for the latest theories). Hmmm, so Tinkerbell is Satan incarnate!!! Darn!! Do fairies and devils have groups/choirs/heavy metal bands? History? Time line?

"Fairy tales all arose in India, they are part of the common Aryan heritage and are to be traced by the remains of their language
They were first written in the Vedas, the sacred Sanskrit books of Buddhism. This theory is somewhat allied to the Sun-Myth Theory. This theory was followed by Max Muller and by Sir George Cox.
The theory of a common source in India will not answer entirely for the origin of tales because many similar tales have existed in non-Aryan countries. Old tales were current in Egypt, 2000 B.C., and were brought from there by Crusaders, Mongol missionaries, the Hebrews, and Gypsies."
Hmmm, something else the Israelites borrowed from the Egyptians?

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/angels.html

"This belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and Assyrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an Assyrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."

what i contribute is truth. truth about what islam is, what it has been, and what it intends to be. and no one can point to one place where i have mistated a fact, or mis quoted the koran, or reported an islamic murder that was not an islamic murder.
and the world of islam agrees.
was it millions of christians that marched and asked for the life of the pope because he said that it was evil that the koran demanded forced conversions or was it millions and millions of islamics?
was it millions and millions of christians who marched and sought death for insulting their religion because of a cartoon of christ or was it islamics who demanded the world comply with their demands about pictures of moho the child rapist.
everyone wants to believe that islam will change but after 1400 years of hate, kidnapping, holding for ransom, torture, murder, rape, and forced conversions - BECAUSE THE KORAN DEMANDS IT!
so again i say in all truth - if you are a good islamic you are a bad person for only a bad person would follow a religion that requires hate, kidnapping, holding for ransom, torture, murder, rape, and forced conversions.

Lets keep "Israel" and it's need's out of the way of the United State's need's and demands.

Lets not get our priorities wrong.

Israel is a fascist state

"By using the new atheist exile politics they [the Zionists] provoked and increased anti-Semitism in Europe which led to the Second world War. . . The worldwide boycott against Germany in 1933 and the later all-out declaration of war against Germany, initiated by the Zionist leaders and the World Jewish Congress. . . " -- Rabbi Schwartz, New York Times, Sept. 30, 1997

educate yourself:

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/zionist.html

Frank has never offered anything serious to any of these debates. I would ask how you define a good person or a bad person, but Frank is a non-person so there is no point in asking. So Frank, if you believe you go to a better place when you die, then why do you wear a seat belt?

Get thee behind me, Frank Collins. Your dissatisfaction with yourself and everyone else is a poor advertisement for your biblical faith.
I thought this was a great question although it doesn't lend itself to facile answers.

I just listened to the beautiful music on Mr.Ahmad's album Azadi/Freedom.Very Spiritualy uplifting!!Can I order the other albums from www.junoon.com? or apple i-tunes?

Gods, Frank, what are you *looking* for, here?

i can only think that you must be a bad islamic to actually believe in peace. if you were a good islamic you would be a very bad person, but a bad islamic does not mecessarily mean you are a good person, but its a start.
islam is the only religion that if you follow it as a good islamic you have to be a very bad person. but that is not the only way to be a bad person.
now if you follow any other religion that i know of - you will be a good person. to be bad you have to violate those other religions.
so here is the rule. if you are a good person you cannot be islamic. but if you are a bad person you can be islamic, but you cant be a true follower of any other religion.

I think you mean 'Gutentag', which is a nice thing people who speak German say sometimes. :)

Good n Tok!

Have to say, Jacob, as Romney goes, I think I've had quite enough of negative-lessons-through-politics. The mess is too big already.

But as for you, you're welcome home any time you're done with your further travels.

People don't say that enough.

:)

OK! Gotcha. :)

Some might tell you different, but the real hard and interesting part is bringing all that home.

Seeing that hyper-connection is actually not the hard part, it just makes it difficult to do other things.

Care to come back and play in this terrible stage show? Others have seen, too. :)

Or you could just rock on, that works, too. :)

Isn't the story of Aladdin's lamp *all about* 'Perfecting intent' as Wiccans might say?

I know you like to capslock things, just pointing out it's a tad rude in certain cases.

Define this word, 'Eclati?'

Hey, btw, Jozvevz?

It happens it'd be a lot more polite if you didn't treat Wicca as though it were an acronym with all the separated capital letters: the idea that "WICCA" is a secret Satanic organization was proved a fraud intended to incite people to hatred and violence a long time ago.

You know, Sudanah, I think 'not seeing any results' is usually an indication you're either doing the wrong thing or expecting to see the wrong kind results.

If what you're doing doesn't show good results, at the very best you're throwing totally-unlabeled dice.

"The idea being that when my needs, desires and purpose (DESTINY) are in perfect harmony with God's purpose then a state of GRACE (BARAKAH) and "LIGHT UPON LIGHT" (Noor) is experienced."

Mr. Ahmad, what a blessing it is when you post. You always bring something beautiful with you when you do. Your 3-step program has a great deal of good sense in it and appeals greatly to my Wiccan sentiments. Part of my morning prayer is "help me to think right, feel right, and do right", and when I do, I can feel that grace.

Norrie,

You're looking at it wrong. It's not necessarily a "three step progam". That assumes there's an ending. What he's doing is part of his spiritual lifestyle. That means he keeps doing it even thought may not notice any results. If you're expecting something magical or obvious is going to happen, you're totally missing the point. Find something that makes you feel good...whole, spiritual-wise and keep doing it until you die.

Norrie,

You shrug and try something else. It takes a lot of searching and trial and error to find something that works for you as an individual.

What do you do if you try the 3-step program and nothing happens, mentally, psychologically or in the activities of the world?

Paganplace,

I agree. What a refreshing question compared to those posed of late. I'm sure, in time, the discussions will turn into a "your views suck" debate, but it will take quite a stretch to get there!

I think I'll write these 3 steps down and tape them to my bathroom mirror, or keep a journal of these thoughts next to my pillow.

Rock. On. :)

This week's question is just great. All kinds of good stuff seems to be coming from it. :)

Mr. Ahmad's 3-step plan is elegant in its simplicity. It is one that we can all follow, no matter what our theosophical leanings are.

Salman, my man you are invited over to the condo anytime for a jam.

Bring your guitar and Baxter and I (and possible some lady friends) will get down with the jazz flute.

And possibly some cowbell.

Can't have enough cowbell in my book.

Dear Mr Ahmad

As an Indian-Australian woman I'm deeply impressed with your work to promote peace between Indian and Pakistan. I'm one of those who happen to believe Pakistan should have remained a part of India, and we are still part of one family.

Thank you for sharing the 3-steps of your spiritual journey and the poem you recorded for Junoon's album. Rumi of course remains such a giant of a mystic that one never has enough of his wisdom. Dom Bede Griffiths ( http://bedegriffiths.com ) in whose Christian Ashram we read from the Quran once a day during prayers, was deeply impressed by Ibn al Arabi and preferred of the 99 names for God from the Quran, Al-haqq.

Personally I wonder how you could have traded your stethoscope for music, but your success as a musician proves you did the right thing.

I wish you great success in all you do! Your role as UN goodwill ambassador for HIV/AIDS is of particular interest to me because it is an issue of such immense importance.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia