Mockery

Sally Quinn: Thank you and Amen.

Appalachian trails? I meant Argentinean tales...

Political Christian politicians who wear their piety on their sleeve are like the Pharisees. They are despised by God, and insult Christ.

No one who loves Christ would ever support such trash, whether he be a man named Sanford or a woman named Palin.

Ms. Quinn:
Thank you for this very clear column.
You are absolutely on the mark about the state of the political "Christian" and the hypocrisy of it all.
Sandford would deny he's remorseful just because he got caught, however, he gives the lie to that by waiting until he got caught to "repay" the state for errant expenses in his overseas foray.
Both politicians have planted their feet in the sand of their pathetic situations and refused to retire from their jobs, even as they disgrace their positions more by staying.
No wonder there is little respect left for anyone serving in Congress or in other high elective offices.
These two men are indicative of a minority in Congress and in elective office, but they give the sours leave to paint all Congressmen with a broad brush.
Your points, Ms. Quinn, are well taken and those on this thread who attack you are as rotten as the two men they "defend."

And this is the reason for separation of church and state. Leave Christianity for the private life. Let politicians behave with secular integrity. If the two coincide, that's great. If they don't, then I could not possibly care less if the politician is a good Christian, only that he or she act with integrity.

All the lip service made by God's Own Party has not advanced Christianity in America. A person is known by their actions.

On a rule, both men & women want a family life but men & women view sex differently. In the past as well as today, a lot of males have sex outside marriage. With sex attitudes since the 70s, I whould think a lot of females whould be thinking the same. Just look at history. P.S. If one go outside the marrage contract, KEEP IT TO YOUR SELF for the sake of your family and marrage.

Living in South Carolina means living a life of political frustration - if you happen to be a democrat. Two ultra-conservative senators and now the maverick millionaire governor caught with his pants down.

He ran off in a tempermental pique looking for solice south of the border, when he was recently forced to take government stimulus money for the state - something he had refused to do until congress and the courts intervened.

Oddly, the man can't be impeached, according to state law. This is a fellow that had big aspirations for the presidency - apparently he's given to delusions of grandeur as part of his generally puckish view of electoral responsibility.

We can only assume that this fellow has been enabled by lying staff members and others close to the governor's office for quite some time - and well before the Argentina debacle.

It's refreshing when high profile politicians can keep their narcissism in check and avoid public scandals - but unlike Bill Clinton, this guy is now a genuinely lame duck until the sun sets on his political career. He may well resign. Unfortunately, the Lt. Governor is also a dufus of a different kind.....

Don't be too concerned for our governor and his future though, because there's always speaking engagements, the inevitable book, more and more money, and Argentina to look forward to.

But pity his poor wife.....

For Sally Quinn to be lecturing anyone on marital morality is just ridiculous. Where was her morality when she started having an affair with Ben Bradlee, then married with two children? Was the pain he caused his family "incalculable?" Did she at the time chastise him for betraying his family, as she chastises Ensign, Sanford, Clinton and Spitzer?

As a person of faith (supposedly), she might want to read that bit in the New Testament about "Let him who is without sin among you throw the first stone." That one certainly would not be Ms. Quinn.

How typical that Sally Quinn takes the time out to yet again self-righteously judge Silda Spitzer for her personal choices regarding her family - while banging on about how tiresome the latest randy self-righteous judgemental politician is. This is such standard Quinn, I can't even get disgusted anymore.

Ain't it the truth!
Remember Jimmy Swaggart's bucket of tears at his first TV service after being caught with a prostitute?
Bet his income is still greater than mine.

ONE THING ABOVE ALL::::::::
"THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT IS NEITHER"!

"And by the way, where are all the pastors and preachers and ministers when these things happen? Are they wringing their hands behind the scenes, standing by ready to advise, counsel and forgive? Why doesn't a clergy person in one of these religious groups stand up and say, "I'm mad as hell. Stop hiding behind God!" Don't they realize that every time one of these guys gets up and makes a confession and invokes his religion it makes all Christians look bad."

Yes Sally, we do understand that this hurts the church. We understand really well. That is why we preach against it tirelessly. And the church will continue to do what it always does. We will work to restore this man and help him repent of what he has done.

May I remind you that Jesus often preferred the company of the fallen to the religious elite. He made it very clear that he didn't come for those that didn't think they needed him but those who knew they were sinners. Hopefully if Mr. Sanford learns one thing from this, it's that he is fallen and needs forgiveness.

You will continue to see the church in places where it is most needed. In prisons, hospitals, and on street corners (not the nice ones). We will preach repententence and right living and pray that others don't follow Mr. Sanford. We will not abandon him because of a mistake but will help restore him if he chooses.

I don't know why liberals are using this as an opportunity to speak against values. This is evidence we need them more than ever. May our country learn from this and repent of these horrific sins and turn to God and not use this as an excuse to wallow in our own sinful behaviour.

tmcproductions2004 wrote:

"The church, the great moral authority, deserves to be scorned for aligning themselves with these creeps. The church and politicians have more in common than the church wants to admit. We see now the seedy sides that they share, but the question is, does the church?"

This is REALLY funny coming from Sally Quinn!

Ms Quinn, your whole essay gives the lie to your early claim: "Frankly I don't care who has an affair with whom." AROSSCPA is correct in stating that in Judaism and Christianity, three parties are involved in a covent, but there is also the element of having made the covenant not only before God but also before a company of people. The promise is made _to_ God and the spouse, but it is made in the presence of the public, and those attending have a right to suppose that those making the vows are sincere. Abandoned vows to spouses and implicitly to children wound the entire community. We are all _capable_ of falling into this kind of betrayal, destroying our most sacred relationships for the sake of a temporary and self-absorbed pleasure, but those who do it--and most especially those who do it habitually--have demonstrated what they are willing and ready to do with other vows they may have made, and other oaths they may have taken. Governor Sanford, in fact, demonstrated that he was willing to abandon his post in the course of the one exposed act. He most certainly should resign.

Speaking as a lifelong committed Christian, I salute Sally Quinn for her forthrightness. Brava!

Bronwyn: Your personal attacks on Ms. Quinn's character are baseless and reprehensible. Did you actually read what she wrote?! If so, you certainly didn't respond to her views in any meaningful way.

"People of faith such as Sanford and Ensign (and Clinton and Edwards) are giving the church a really bad name."

duh? Are you just now getting this? The church, the great moral authority, deserves to be scorned for aligning themselves with these creeps. The church and politicians have more in common than the church wants to admit. We see now the seedy sides that they share, but the question is, does the church?

Sanford and Ensign thought they were not going to get caught since their affairs had been going on for many months. They enjoyed those liaisons so their confessions are irrelevant. Sanford sounds like he still intend to see his mistress. These Republican "pious" men should resign. They are disgusting.

Ms Quinn:
Shortly before the November election I discovered "On Faith" and fell in love with the wide array of contributors with or without belief in god. I am a fairly liberal catholic who loves his church and strives to make it accountable (relevant) in this day and age. Your comments about the current political-religious hypocrits was spot on and exactly what I wrote to Mitch McConnell but of course my being a yella dog Democrat and identified to him as such didn't merit a response. I laud the governor's wife for comments I heard about this incident. Your comments were (should be) well received.

Exactly - you go girl

Sally, I think part of the problem is that the term "Christian" is too loosely defined.

The numerous times (and times, again) that these "professed Christian" politions lie to and deceive their constituents and others, it is difficult to see where the Christian character is.

You are right, each time they commit these acts they defile the name of Christianity. But that is because what it means to be a Christian is too broadly applied. Alas, the now silent pastors--with eggs in thier faces--are to be blamed.

"When someone who has taken a marital vow breaks it, that is between that person and his or her spouse."

You'd think that someone who pretends to moderate a discussion regarding faith would understand this most basic precept: Many religions don't believe the above statement in the least. Christians, for instance, believe that marriage is between husband, wife, and God.

The Washington Post should get rid of this On Faith section until it can find some people whose grasp of faith exceeds that of the average sunday school adolescent.

The difficulty of understanding the meaning of the life of Christ is tied up in the products of soul and spirit. The soul as the seat of emotion. and spirit the force of an act. Passions are a compromise of these two with both desirable and undesirable consequences. "A time and a place for all things", including things spiritual even serving the soul. (Going on pure instinct) What does that mean in modern terms? The soul feels, the spirit moves. Back to the Gospel, we can mysteriously extract the implication that the life of Christ was to "divide asunder the matters of the heart, joint and marrow, exemplifying soul and spirit." thus, even as sin is already in the world, as are the seeds of all kinds of things, and their manifestation, so is the potential of sin to take root by virtue of spirit serving soul for the sake of the pleasure of sin. Ok, well and good one can say, since that is the driving force of reproductive creation, or procreation. However , if unfruitful, or as obsessive-compulsive repetition, becomes a menace to peace and welfare even though it is the mechanism of life sustaining itself. Where is the line drawn between normal and excessive? Statistics are not moral. Ethics are not compulsory. But just as "hate is a problem in the heart of the hater", so is love in the heart of the relatively challenged.

The following verses may help:

MAT 27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
ROM 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
CO1 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
GAL 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
REV 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our lord was crucified.
GAL 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of god, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
GAL 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
GAL 6:14 But god forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
ACT 2:36 Therefore let all the house of israel know assuredly, that god hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both lord and Christ.
ACT 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of god, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Men in powerful positions attract women. Powerful politicians more often than not possess incredible egos. This stuff will continue happening and more happens than we know about. I for one don't give a damn about what Sanford does with his sex life but it sure is nauseating to listen to the self righteous Republicans moralizing on the issue.

Christians, Muslims, Jews--the "sky god religions" as described by Gore Vidal are fixated on sex and I wish they could spare the rest of us their morbid fascination.

Just repeat this phrase every time you start moralizing about sex. Sex is good, sex is natural, sex with someone other than your monogamous mate sometimes happens. When it happens deal with it.

Bronwyn:
"You who aim for nothing and have no code of honor for yourself, do us a favor and just shut up"

R u seriously suggesting that non religious people have no "moral code"? There is morality without god and to suggest otherwise is frankly one of the most offensive and vile lies that people of faith spew on non believers.

Christians accept organized religion. If u do so, u can not pick and choose it. You have pigeon holed yourself to live within that "moral code" with the punishment of eternal damnation. Thats why it is "so easy" to criticise people like Sanford. They have strayed, repeatedly.

A secular humanists "moral code" is not distinctly different in the west to that of a christian as we are culturally similar. We however are not bound by a 2000 year old book that keeps us in the dark ages and that people like yourself selectivly use to moralize on things (like hoomosexuality).

Human morality has evolved from those days. If u can not move along with us, then it is u madam who need to "shut up". Your faith box's u in to certain viewpoints and yes, "moral codes", whereas non believers are flexible and free to think and come to their own conclusions about right and wrong.

You moralize throughout your pointless article and then end with the hope that Christians will stop moralizing. The article seemes to have one purpose - to cast discredit on Christians and Jesus because the men who have supposedly tried to follow him have fallen.
You state how much you loathe hypocrites. Question. How would your own sins and failings play in the spotlight? Christians are easy pickings for you because our high and lofty moral code is famous throughout the world. Those who confess that they are Christians can easliy be castigated for the least deviation from the faultless example of Jesus. I notice, however, that you make no mention of your own moral code, if any. You risk no criticism because you aim at nothing- at least not publicly. The easy shots you take at others could never be levelled at you because you have not undertaken to live by an articulated principle of right by which your life could be judged. Since you are clearly not a Christian and retreat to a convenient, 'I don't know anything', when questioned about the nature of the world, perhaps you should keep your cackling to a minimum when others fall short of their great ideals. You who aim for nothing and have no code of honor for yourself, do us a favor and just shut up.

You moralize throughout your pointless article and then end with the hope that Christians will stop moralizing. The article seemes to have one purpose - to cast discredit on Christians and Jesus because the men who have supposedly tried to follow him have fallen.
You state how much you loathe hypocrites. Question. How would your own sins and failings play in the spotlight? Christians are easy pickings for you because our high and lofty moral code is famous throughout the world. Those who confess that they are Christians can easliy be castigated for the least deviation from the faultless example of Jesus. I notice, however, that you make no mention of your own moral code, if any. You risk no criticism because you aim at nothing- at least not publicly. The easy shots you take at others could never be levelled at you, because you have not undertaken to live by an articulated principle of right by which your life could be judged. Since you are clearly not a Christian and retreat to a convenient, 'I don't know anything', when questioned about the nature of the world, perhaps you should keep your cackling to a minimum when others fall short of their great ideals. You who aim for nothing and have no code of honor for yourself, do us a favor and just shut up.

arosscpa wrote:
...but the offense requires the total act of penance.

Right. And paying for the tracking device to get fixed that Sanford deliberately disabled.

Marriage is the problem here.

I agree with Ms. Quinn that the Affair Gov. Sanford confessed is a private matter for those those involved -- the other woman included -- and shouldn't be mixed up with politics or public debate. I do believe the reaction says more about our society that the governor's actions.

I am coming to believe that marriage is an artificial contruct that goes against human nature. This is precisely why affairs like this happen all the time, why so many divorce while others live their lives in miserable marriage, and those who remain happily married are the lucky few.

Perhaps the problem is with marriage itself, and perhaps society should get rid of marriage completely. Eliminating it as a legal institution would be a small step in that direction, but then culturally, finally as an idea in itself. Marriage may have made sense when life was short. It makes little sense today. Without marriage we wouldn't be talking about the right for gays to marry, or babies born out of wedlock (for whatever practical difference makes in that problem). There would be no divorce. Or affairs.

Getting rid of the idea of marriage would go a long way toward eliminating jealousy and posessiveness in relationships.

The alternative to marriage is the freedom for people to define meaningful relationships with others as they see fit, even if that may involve multiple partners at the same time, or with people of the same sex. If they want to call it a marriage then it is true for them. The don't need the government or a religion to grant it to them.

Live and let live.

Spot on article Sally, could not have said it better.

arosscpa:
I think the point is that these men cynically use god to further their political cause. As they invoke god to get them into office, they also do so to keep themselves in office when they stray. They couldn't care less aboutthe "covenant" u speak of, infact who knows how many of them are actually honest about their religious beliefs as they have to be Christian in order to be in the GOP or else they have no chance. Like Iran.

The bigger picture the Christian right needs to ask itself is how closesly aligned with the Republicans do they want to be? God is not a card carrying member of the GOP or a gun toting member of the NRA.

If they can not see that they r being cynically played for their votes, they r fools.

Man's God deseerves all the blame! The ridiculous repression that religions impose on natural human emotions. We as humans with our angry god made in man's image simply cannot come to terms with having a body and mind, let alone have them combined. We chose to impose spirit on ourselves in order to ignore both our body and our minds. If we cannot learn to to balance body and mind without using one or the other to rationalize inhumane actions, collateral damages and demonization of others we are going to be the cause of our own extinction. Mindfulness meditation can be helpful in this respect if it is not being used as a way to reinforece ego. If you take the e out of ego and put it inbetween the g and the o you get geo and it would be useful in the 21st century to become more geosynchronous in our orbit and start to create a geodesic home with more adults committed to creating a home with less children to help create a more eco-economically flexible home that can withstand a layoff and have someone to help maintain a liveable home. The toxic nuclear family with both parents working is a modelhome of disaster! It is over-stressed with both partners working and no time to take care of the home at the same time living in society is getting more complex and difficult to navigate. At the same time society need to realize that interdependence means it makes sense to help create a basic standard of living rather than descend into chaos of everyone for themselves.

Ms.Quinn:

I could go on about how hypocritical Republican "men of faith" are - the list of the conservatives of faith who pull a Clinton is long and full of major God-Pols.

Instead, let's send some healing karma to the family of Gov. Sanford. They are in more need of our prayers, mercy, grace and good karma than he is (and he needs a lot).

What I find disgusting, hypocritical and nauseating is the morality play that appears every time one of these God-Pols gets caught.

The condemned speaks, weeps, moans and groans: the media jumps like live fish in a hot skillet and the rest of us watch in abject fascination as the person involve and his or her family disintegrate right before our eyes.

We apparently love watching our train wrecks.

As a society we should have the good sense to turn away and ignore the whole sordid mess.

I hae yet to see his minister or any other minister offer his or her services to help the Sanford family. I have yet to see people of faith rush to help a fallen brother get back up.

All I see is a media circus.

And the public eats it up.

That says more about the state of our society than anything else.

Shame on Sanford for doing the deed and then going public.

Shame on the media for pounding it into the public's head

Same on all of us who continue to pay attention to what should be a prvate matter.

Ms. Quinn: While your complaint rings many true chords, it ignores the theology of marriage common in both Judaism and Christianity. Marriage is not a two-party contract, but a three-party covenant. For this reason, seeking God's forgiveness, in addition to that of one's spouse, children and extended family, is not only valid, but is required within the offending spouse's whole act of penance.

Nonbelievers may complain or even doubt the sincerity of the statement, but the offense requires the total act of penance.