Why I Took Holy Communion

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UNIVERSAL RELIGIONISM!
This Most-Loving Prayer was also addressed to Pope Benedict XVI – Most Faithfully!
The Most Criminal, World-Wide, RELIGIONISM – Ever!
All that Our Whole World has ever needed - and still presently needs, foremost more than ever – is A National Incorrupt Reevaluation!
“HAPPY HOLIDAYS”!!!
“MERRY CHRISTMAS”!!!
“HAPPY NEW YEAR”!!!
“HAPPY NEW CENTURY”
ALMIGHTY GOD’S TRUE NUCLEAR WORLD PRACTICAL DEMOCRACY; THAT IS, UNIVERSAL INDIVIDUAL EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO ACHIEVE GOD’S BEST’S HUMAN RIGHTS (GIFTS), shall never exist for us in our “America”, and in our “Free” “Nuclear” World, UNTIL GOD’S CRUCIAL DETERMINANTS – UNIVERSAL FUNCTIONAL LITERACY and UNIVERSAL GOOD-SAMARITAN HEALTH INSURANCE – are Legislatively Compelled (Constitutionally) as a Fully-Punishing Humanitarian Criminal Law; that is, until Our Insatiable Ultra Filthy-Wealthy Corporative “American” Government so give the True Example, OF SUCH A SACRED UNIVERSALLY HUMAN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY, for Our Whole, Totally Exploited, and so Totally Suffering Illiterate, Healthless, and Helpless “American” World!
Almighty God did not write HIS BIBLE just to “Inspire” only The Implacable “Sacrosanct” “Religionist” Corporations of His World to use IT as toilet paper – that is, to use IT as Such a Globalized, Religionist, Materialist, MUM-PIOUS, SO EQUALLY TERRORIST, NUCLEAR, SUICIDAL, SUBLIMINAL INHUMAN EXPLOITATION!
Why “THE TRULY UNIVERSAL CHURCH” - as “FREE AND SEPARATE FROM THE STATE” NEVER TAKE ALL OF THESE, AS THE TRUE DAILY PREACHING INITIATIVE???!!!
BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT “THE TRUE SERVANTS OF ALMIGHTY GOD” – AS THEY SO “FERVENTLY CLAIM” TO BE -- BUT OF GOVERNMENTAL “COMFORTABLY” RAPACIOUS CORPORATIVE INHUMAN WORLD POLITICS!!!
MAY WE TRULY PRAY THAT WE ALL TRUE SOLID AMERICANS REALLY ENABLE ALMIGHTY GOD TO BLESS (SAVE) OUR MOST BELOVED TRUE AMERICA!!!
OTHERWISE, ANY OTHER CRIME OR ABORTION IS AN “INNOCENT” BY-PRODUCT!!!

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Dear Sally,

I am a member of a denomination, the Community of Christ, that moved from communion for members only to communion for those who had accepted Christ in the 1990's. I also hold a ministerial office in that denomination, and have for about forty years. In my various roles over the years, what to do about communion has often been the subject of decision and policy.

It was my privilege to present the legislation that moved us to a more open stance to our world conference. One of the key principles that guided me in making that stance, and in all matters of church practices is this question: In whose service am I acting?

My question to myself is another form of the WWJD question, but it holds for me this added layer: if it is my sensibilities, beliefs or practices that are on the line in order to serve what I percieve to fulfill God's inclusive purpose, I am willing to give up any of those things to be one who bears God's love for God's creation and creature to someone, so be it.

In this case, your choice was to connect with God and Tim Russert, or to satisfy Donahue or the sensibilities of the priesthood as represented by Martin. Clearly, you approached the Eucharist with the proper attitude and heart - else the priest might have not served you. Equally clearly, then, you made the right choice and in doing so accepted God's compassion for you in your own grief, and your connectedness with "Brother Tim."

Grace and Peace,

Charlie Curry

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Sally, I haven't read the 500+ posts to this column, so I don't know all that's been said, so forgive me.

You shouldn't have taken communion; I sense that you knew that before hand. I hope that that the next time you attend a Catholic mass, for whatever reason, you abstain from receiving the Sacrament. The absence of 'guidance'at the Mass as to who or who should not receive communion is really not relevent. The Catholic Church is the only faith that subscribes that the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ, not a representation or a symbol, and reserves receipt of the blessed Eucharist for Catholics (and not every Catholic e.g. only those that have been provided instruction as to the meaning and significance of the Eucharist, and to those who have not been stained by mortal sin since their last confession). Anecdotal evidence notwithstanding, it's not the prerogative of any Catholic (or non Catholic) to rationalize or suggest that it's OK for you or to give you (or any other non Catholic) permission or a dispensation to receive Communion. Period. That said, God bless you.

Ms Quinn,

You performed an act of love in taking Communion at the funeral of Tim Russert. I feel you owe no apology for your action. In fact, you are owed the apology for you are not the one who acted improperly, but those who are condemning this act of love. Anything done truly and totally out of love can not be wrong.

I truly approve of and respect your act.

Matthew 22:36-40 These religious leaders had made almost an art form of classifying all the various laws and giving them relative degrees of importance, so in asking Jesus this question, their aim was to test Him. His answer stunned them: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

I would put the legalise found in the postings about who is worthy to receive the Eucharist below squarely in the same category as the Pharisees mentioned in this central tenent of Christianity (Matthew 22)

WWJD concerning a professed believer who believes that the Eucharist is his body and blood, has confessed his sins and who approaches the alter with an open heart ---- but was a Lutheran or Episcopalian? Who knows? Are you claiming to know his mind about something that was beyond hypothetical more than 200 years ago?

Dear Sally

It should give you great consolation to know that during Catholic World Youth Day in Sydney this year, one million Communion Hosts had been made and when Communion was distributed to the 350 thousand who attended the Papal Mass (including the Mass by the Archbishop of Sydney which was attended by about a hundred thousand people), nobody was asked not to partake of the Communion. Communion was offered to all who came forward to receive it.

I will pray for Ms Quinn whose apology is basically
"screw you Catholics, I'll do what I want".

Dear Sally Quinn,

I have read and heard so much about Tim Russert, but I have yet to hear anyone in the media say, "Tim was the greatest guy I knew. Tim was Catholic. Maybe I should become Catholic, too." What was it that Tim knew and practiced and beleived? Many apparently asked him, and he answered many questions, but for each individual to truly come to that great Love that Tim seemed to live, it seems to me that prayer is needed. Have you considered simply asking Christ to reaveal Himself to you? You can ask Our Lady to teach you about her Son. I am praying that you will find the peace and love that you found so admirable in Tim Russert.

"Since you mentioned Legion of Mary in your post and your speculation that Rosary may have been integrated to Benedictine spirituality"

i didnt speculate on anything- the bendictines say the 3 mysteries in the same mammer as the blue army-

they also have their own partuclar rosary- many orders do-

"I have not had anything to do with Parish priests (I attend Mass that is all)"

i'm at a loss there soja-

maybe you should go to your parish priest-
thats what they are there for-

dont recommend wikipedia to people- it is filled with false information and bad opinions-

the purpose of the blue army is to coalesce parishoners to do good deeds in their community, devote their intentions to prayer- and support each other- they are a marian org-

their group is based upon the traditions of Saint Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort form the late 1600's.

this is why i dislike wikipedia-

maybe you really are not aware of it-but go bakc and read your apology- the next sentence is a slur against my faith-

soja- your dig that the qur'an is derived entirely from the bible is not only disrespectful and condescending- it is completely untrue-

"Having read the Quran myself I wonder why you had to convert to Islam, after all almost all of the religion in the Quran is taken from the Bible."

if you really are not aware of how deeply offensive and belittling a statement that is about my own holy book-

then we should, as i have requested repeatedly-
agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

for catholic information go to new advent or catholic encyclpedia-

i only use wikipedia as a thrid or fourth resource, if at all- and only after ive presented sources reflecting the adherents of a particular faith-

i think i have expressed my disdain for wikipedia many times on these boards-

the benedictines - as i said-

"and we vowed to say all 3 mysteries every day-
to my understanding the benedictines also pray in this way-

but i'm going from memory- i may be mistaken-
i don't think it's in wikipedia"

not- as you state-
"
Legion of Mary is a lay Catholic movement and has nothing to do with the Benedictine Monasticism (St Benedict 480-550)."

i didnt say that - but you have been misunderstanding and misprepresnting my words from the inception-

thats why i try to paste peoples actual word- to repsect their expression instead of reinterpreting for them or putting words in their mouth-

but ive told you this many times-

it is not for the reasons you state that my posts annoy you so personally-

but i will refrain from making personal comments about you based on my own observation-

just be the best catholic you can be-

i have told you many times i have no desire to embarrass you- but if you keep making these passive agressive remarks that build in their own momentum- at some point i may be forced to do it to get you to stop insulting my religion- no matter how benignly you try to make it seem-

and you know i can do it- so please stop-

Victoria

Since you mentioned Legion of Mary in your post and your speculation that Rosary may have been integrated to Benedictine spirituality, I thought it might be a good idea to add Wikipedia links for the basics on both topics for those interested in getting to know the Catholic church better.

Legion of Mary is a lay Catholic movement and has nothing to do with the Benedictine Monasticism (St Benedict 480-550).

The Dominican order (St Dominic 1170-1221) is credited with introducing the Rosary, as you can see several centuries after Benedict.

I know of no Benedictine Order where the Rosary is an integral part of their spirituality. But then I only know a couple of Benedictine orders and since the Benedictines have a unique freedom to be independent from each other, nobody can make any general statement about what additional spirituality may have been incorporated to the rules of Benedict. So if American Benedictine monasteries you may have visited pray the rosary...

Although by no means exhaustive and detailed in the information provided, here the Wiki link to Catholic spirituality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_spirituality

The Legion of Mary was founded by Frank Duff on September 7, 1921 in Dublin. His idea was to help Catholic laypeople fulfill their baptismal promises and be able to live their dedication to the Church in an organised structure, supported by fraternity and prayer...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_Mary

Regarding my personal opinion about Ryan Haber's conservative Catholic stand: I got the idea after reading his posts on Professor Steven-Arroyo's blog. As I already mentioned in several posts, my family has been Christian since 52 AD (nineteen and a half centuries), and I was born in a village which has one of the oldest established Churches in India, only a few kilometers from where Apostle Thomas landed. So I have a fairly good idea of what conservative means. Your definition may be different based on your personal experiences. I have not had anything to do with Parish priests (I attend Mass that is all) but I have been interested in spirituality and have had the good fortune to know wonderful (highly intellectual and liberal) Jesuit priests and a couple of Benedictine monks (also extremely intellectual and radical). So our perspectives are different because our spiritual journeys have been different. I have always been a lay person.

I realize I have been somewhat brusque in my responses to you sometimes. I apologize. I think the fact that you converted to Islam after being in training to be a nun bothers me unconsciously although I respect Muslims. Having read the Quran myself I wonder why you had to convert to Islam, after all almost all of the religion in the Quran is taken from the Bible. If you had been born into a Muslim family or you had not been such a pious Catholic, it would not have bothered me. So there you have it. From now on I will try to be better.

soja, i've known 'extremely conservative cahtolics'.
i do not find ryan to fit in that category-

conservative is fine- to me it means prudence and wisdom-

possibly i bring emotional baggage to that term- but to me- extreme conservative means fundamental means inflexible and intolerant-

i really am refreshed by ryan, and sandy's reverence and kindness- i found none of the judgementalism or exclusionism that i associate with extremes-

as for the roasry, the benedictines have their own rasary and fashion of praying it-
i was in the legion of mary (the blue army- don't worry if you've never heard of it, few catholics have) and we vowed to say all 3 mysteries every day-
to my understanding the benedictines also pray in this way-

but i'm going from memory- i may be mistaken-
i don't think it's in wikipedia-

so i don't think heis an extreme conservaitve- simply an observant and practicing catholic-

but i should let him define himself-
( i really dislike that term- it may be a personal thing)

Ryan Haber:

Thanks for your response, but I didn't ask why God doesn't do parlor tricks or give me a bicycle. I asked why God NEVER cures amputees despite supposedly curing other types of maladies and despite his promise to do "anything" we ask for in his name and despite your assertion that "God can do anything that isn't logically self-contradictory".

You wrote: "When we are fully committed to doing God's will, He'll do whatever we want, because it will be what He wanted anyway!"

Does the fact that he has NEVER given back an amputated limb mean that all amputees have never been fully committed to his will or that his will has always been that all amputees have never wanted their limbs back? (By the way, Augustine was apparently of the opinion that lost limbs will be restored at the final judgment so that the people in hell can suffer just that much more.)

Regarding communion and cannibalism:

One need not murder anyone in order to eat them. The most famous cases of cannibalism in modern times involved starving people consuming the corpses of those who had died of natural causes and who, by virtue of their deaths, were no longer "persons". I seriously doubt that even the RC church would condemn cannibalism under those circumstances.

When you "receive" communion, do you really and truly believe that you are actually eating the living hair, skin, bones, toenails, innards and unmentionables of Jesus? I'm not trying to be gratuitously offensive here: I'm sincerely hoping that I've misunderstood something about transubstantiation.

Ryan Haber:

The Benedictine motto is "Ora et Labora," or "Work and Pray," and toward that end, the Rule of St. Benedict intends that each brother or sister in the community be engaged several hours daily in work that is conducive to contemplation - gardening, manual labor (like dishwashing, sweeping/scrubbing), etc. Work and prayer are not exclusive of each other, but can be harmonized and even, under the right circumstances, undertaken simultaneously. The rosary is a prayer method that is also suited to such combination. The Benedictine path is one of balance, each day combining times for work, prayer, recreation, meals, and study, inter al.

July 15, 2008 1:17 PM

==================================

Ryan

I'm sure you'd enjoy reading the autobiography of Dom Bede Griffiths OSB, The Golden String, even if he later evolved into a rather radical Catholic pioneer monk in India. He remained a very holy man, and nobody who knew him personally doubted his Christianity, and he has inspired many people around the world.

From your posts I understand that you are an extremely conservative Canon Law and Church doctrine conscious Catholic. Fr Bede believed in the Law of Love and He was convinced that is what Jesus came to teach and that is what Jesus lived. As Christians we know that Jesus condemned the law obsessed Pharisees of His day. Fr Bede was a Christian mystic and saint. He was all embracing and unconditionally loving. Sally (Quinn) would have felt absolutely thrilled to meet him, even if she would have found the harsh living conditions of Shantivanam impossible to bear. Unfortunately Fr Bedes are a rare phenomenon.

You mentioned the rosary. The rosary as you know is not part of Benedictine spirituality (it may be some Benedictine monasteries have adopted it, although the Rules of Benedict is entirely Jesus based). Benedict after all lived several centuries before the rosary was introduced into the Catholic church in the second half of the fourteenth century.

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/fatima/rosary.html

I wanted to add the following information about the Benedictine Order from Wikipedia for non-Catholic readers:

"The monastery at Monte Cassino established in Italy by St. Benedict of Nursia circa 529 was the first of a dozen monasteries founded by him. Even so, there is no evidence to suggest that he intended to found an order. To the contrary, the Rule of St Benedict presupposes the autonomy of each community. Despite the absence of a Benedictine order, since most monasteries founded during the Middle Ages adopted the Rule of St Benedict, it became the standard for Western Monasticism.

The Benedictine monasteries went on to make considerable contributions not only to the monastic and the spiritual life of the West, but also to economics, education, and government, so that the years from 550 to 1150 may be called the "Benedictine centuries".

Even today Benedictine monasticism is fundamentally different from other Western religious orders insofar as its individual communities are not part of a religious order with "Generalates" and "Superiors General". Rather, in modern times, the various autonomous houses have formed themselves loosely into congregations (for example, Cassinese, English, Solesmes, Subiaco, Camaldolese, Sylvestrines) that in turn are represented in the Benedictine Confederation that came into existence through Pope Leo XIII's Apostolic Brief "Summum semper" on July 12, 1883. This organization facilitates dialogue of Benedictine communities with each other and the relationship between Benedictine communities and other religious orders and the church at large.

The Rule of Saint Benedict is also used by a number of religious orders that began as reforms of the Benedictine tradition such as the Cistercians and Trappists although none of these groups are part of the Benedictine Confederation.

The largest number of Benedictines are Roman Catholics, but there are also Benedictines within the Anglican Communion and occasionally within other Christian denominations as well, for example, within the Lutheran Church."

ryan, karen, sandy, and others-
it's heartening to see your interchange of faith and the graciousness with which you all express yourselves-

thanks for bringing grace and gentility to this forum
peace

Sandy, I don't know if you'll see this, so if I get the chance, I will repost it elsewhere that you might appear.

You express yourself far better than you suppose. Thank you especially for your kind words.

Congratulations on your 29 years of marriage - that is amazing and beautiful. Also, congratulations on your husband's growth in faith. It strikes me as very likely that you were very involved, even without "doing" anything in particular to bring it about.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the importance of being careful, ever so careful with others. It really upsets me when I find myself being testy or temperamental (for whatever reason) with anybody who (I coincidentally happen to know) isn't a solid Christian. What a scandal! Work has got me like that a lot lately. Not cool. Not cool. You're right about people walking off from their parish or even from the Church or Christianity altogether as a result of little slights. The enemy of our souls looks for every little opportunity, and magnifies such things in our heart and mind well beyond their objective significance. Anything to pry us away from Jesus.

Prayer, Sandy. We all need to pray more.

Ryan,

Again, I want to thank you for sharing your depth of knowledge and your charitable but firm approach to the Catholic faith.

I wasn't going to come here today - and I won't stay long, but reading your posts is spiritually uplifting as well as educational.

You are right regarding premature, unprepared reception of the Eucharist. I absolutely agree, and I really intended to state that such a thing should be / would be extremely rare. I would NEVER promote such a thing. In cases where it HAS occurred, if I wasn't directly involved I would try to reserve judgement, be charitable. But if I knew someone who did receive without being prepared (RCIA, etc) I WOULD talk to them about the profound Sacrament the Eucharist is and guide them into RCIA or something similar.

I came into the church as a young adult, 20 years old. I officially prepared for a year (I had been heading in this direction for several years) and it was an awesome, life-changing experience - in many ways, the very beginning of my life. Our priest was a great teacher: compassionate, humorous, intelligent; and in church matters he held conservative, orthodox views. I was baptised and confirmed on Easter Vigil, 1979, and to this day I have this incredible sensation and memory of the holy water being poured over my head, and then confirmed, annointed with oil by the bishop. Then we received our First Eucharist. I was overcome with joy and trembled at the thought of the gift I had received.

I still wonder at this great gift of the Holy Spirit that led me to the church when I had no knowledge of it other than Catholic families I knew and what I saw on TV.

I taught catechism for 8 - 9 years, mostly 2nd grade, so I was preparing them for First Holy Eucharist. I also taught 5th grade for a year. I never would have taught them that it was okay to partake of Communion if they weren't baptised and prpoerly disposed Catholics. And I found myself telling a couple of parents, at least, that I felt their child was not yet ready to receive, due to immaturity (and/or poor attendance). The kids repeated the year. I similarly counseled friends of my daughter who had been baptised in the Catholic church but nothing beyond that and had really no knowledge of the Eucharist and the True Presence. They came to Mass with us a couple of times and they of course wanted to know what they should do at Communion. Without saying "No, you can't," I just discussed it with them and they each decided to go up for a blessing. One of them later asked for one of my books about the faith and asked her parents if they could return to the church. Amazing.

So,I agree absolutely with what you said, also regarding marriage - we just celebrated our 29th (I could leap into the value of Pre-Cana workshops here, but I won't). I don't have your gift of expression, but I know that the Holy Eucharist is the Body and Blood of our Lord and is the source and summit of our faith; and, therefore the reception of this Great Sacrament is profound, serious, and requires due understanding, knowledge and preparation. My posts may have been fuzzy on this, but my belief and understanding is not. I just, in this case and most others where no ill-intent is present, want to be, as you said, charitable, humble - and possibly a conduit, should the Holy Spirit will it.

One never knows the small things that affect people, either harden or soften their hearts. You are so careful with your words you must know this innately. People are so vulnerable when seeking a relationship with Christ. I have friends who have left the church (or a Protestant church) for very small slights, usually unintended, by a priest, deacon or just another parishoner. I would never want to mislead anyone, nor would I want to slam the door on them. I can only pray that I can become that charitable, welcoming person. I can be hardcore and judgemental - you see that I'm working on that.

Again, I appreciate your knowledge and defense of our faith. You are 'right on' in every post I've read. I don't know what you do in real life, but you could write a book about your faith experience, your ongoing transformation, along with your knowledge of church doctrine and practice.

Ex-papist,

You're right, there are a lot of "rules" and "beliefs" and they can get to feeling very complicated. That's not surprising for a number of reasons.

I lived in with a family in Mexico for a summer, and trying to adjust to a somewhat different way of life was at first burdensome - having to remember new dinner times, a different set of manners and mores, etc. But gradually they sank in, and there were very few rules left to have to think about. Looking at Christianity from the outside, and Catholicism or Orthodoxy in particular (we are very closely related in faith, morals, and worship), things can look terribly complicated. But they really aren't. They're just terribly different that what goes on outside. Coming into the Church, likewise, requires quite a number of transitions and changes. Just like living in a foreign country. That's kind of an end result of "secularization" is that the Western world has moved away from its Christian roots, so that the Church and Western Culture are no longer doing things the same way.

Second reason why it isn't surprising that Catholicism is very complicated is because we intend it and embrace it because it reflects, models, and assists in living in reality. Real life is often a very complicated affair. I don't want an ethereal, pie-in-the-sky religion that can't help me deal with real life, but only avoid it with illusions. If our religion is to address a complicated reality, we should expect that it will itself be somewhat complicated.

But really in the end, like getting used to living in Mexico, what's truly surprising is how really simple it is, once you get the hang of it. I get up each morning and go to Mass, usually arriving about 5 minutes late because I putz and the sleep doesn't clear from my eyes for a while, and then I go to work. I put in a good day's work sometimes, work most of the time, and laze once in a while. My work gives me a flexible schedule and gaps of free time between bursts of activity - time to write or blog. I do my best to be diligent at work, patient in line, and so on. I spend time with my family and friends, I watch movies, read (philosophy, history, geography, fiction), work out and go running and hiking, and keep my eye open for pretty Catholic girls. I try to give generously to the poor, save a bit for vacation (I love travelling overseas - Iceland or Ireland is next), and stay out of debt. I am involved in a weekly men's prayer group. A few times a month I go downtown to help at a hospice. I help around the parish when my pastor or someone else there asks. I blow it and sin - my big mouth, bad temper, inordinate appetites, fears, or frustrations outdo me and I hurt someone, myself, or just plain stink at some virtue. So I head to confession, pray God forgive me, and start over again with His help. I don't smoke, so I try to interrupt my midday with a few minutes of prayer by myself. It gets me out of the cube and into some fresh air. Before I go to bed I say some prayers and try to check in with God about how the day went, what I'm grateful for, what I'll try to do better the next day. On nice evenings, I like to do this while I go for a walk. Recently, I discovered that the parish by my house has a chapel open 24 hours daily. It is nice to go there at night to pray alone, too, as our Lord did. I don't have to, and don't always, or even very often. But I like to.

That's it. Not so complicated, is it? At least, it doesn't seem that way to me. I'm not holding myself up as a model of a saint, not by a longshot. Just putting myself out there as an ordinary Catholic-Who-Means-It; there are a lot out there that would be better examples. But my point is that it isn't a bunch of rules, but a rather nice way of life. From the inside, it seems much less cramped than it might from out there.

My ma is an "ex-papist" too. She is a babyboomer. I think her generation was served very heroically, but perhaps not very well, by a generation of religious sisters (nuns) who were overworked and fed-up with a lot of things, and priests who had it kinda easy in a lot of ways, and so took it easy in others. But maybe she'll see, that despite 12 years of Catholic schooling, she hadn't been as educated in the faith of the Church as she thinks.

Ok, the test cases are done. I've gotta get back to work.

Daniel in the Lion's Den:

"A God-idiom as a metaphor of mankind is not all that different than believing in a stone idol, that is carved to look like a man. I do not believe in either."

I am not sure what you mean by "God-idiom."

"I have a sense of God, but it is not the God-idiom that seems to color all of your visualizaitons of the world and of human existence."

Why, thank you. It is my deepest hope, the think I most strive for, that one day my every thought and desire should be focused firstly on God, and that He should likewise shape and tint everything I say and do. I am not yet a saint, though.

You see, the central Christian belief isn't that there is a God - that's a given for most people. It's that God LOVES us. He loves us SO MUCH, that He wants to be with us. Not just in one time and place (Palestine at about AD 30, my wasn't that fun) but EVERYWHERE and FOR ALL TIME. And He isn't happy just to be with us, but He wants to be AMONG us, even IN us, even individually. Looked at from this perspective, of the immense and incomprehensible love of God, not only does the Incarnation of God in human flesh start to fit into place, but so does Transubstantiation, God taking on a form in which we can take Him in.

Ryan Haber,

Thank you as always for your thoughtful and intelligent post.
For the record, I do not necessarily defend the stand of the Orthodox chuch on these divise issues either.
For many years now, I have been attending a non denominational church precisely for the fact that organized denominational religion seems to divid us rather then unite us. My current church welcomes all believers' to the Lord's table and takes mmunion very seriously.
I personnally believe that our Lord is present in communion. How, physically or in spirit, is not for me an issue that we should divide over. Jesus said that when 2 or more are gathered in Hs name, He also will be there. Do I see Him physically there during praise and worship at church? No, but I do know that He is there. I am OK with a certain level of mystery and unknown. For now we see through a glass, darkly. When we are in Heaven, all will be revealed.

Re: essentials of the faith, our pastor has a great test by which to evaluate the issues at hand in order to keep us for getting lost in the peripherals and I will pass it on. Does it matter to the persecuted believer in an undergroung church in China? If not, maybe I should not divide from other christians over the issue either.

Best to you.
Karen M

Sandy and Karen,

I'm responding to points in your posts together because they seem to fit together.

Karen, you're right - it is not at all clear in most places who is supposed to come to Communion and who is supposed to refrain. I mentioned in an earlier post that we are still trying to get our act together on this one. As Ms. Quinn pointed out, it can be very confusing.

The impulse of anger I felt at first reading her peace has since defused and its reasons become clearer to me. I wasn't angry that she had made a good faith mistake, but because she seems, in her apology, to have had some idea that this wasn't what her hosts would have wanted, and to have "gone with the gusto," so to speak, and then to have bragged about it. That's how she came across to me and apparently to others, anyway.

That said, I cannot judge her for it. On a number of occasions, I have gone to Communion knowing full well that I wasn't disposed. Having come directly from one serious sin or another, straight up to the Altar of God as if nothing had happened. What a farce I made out it! At first out of ignorance. I went through 8 years of catechism classes and never heard that. I have mentioned before that we have a very grave catechetical crisis in the Church right now - it is much more serious, in my mind, than any clerical crisis could be, although the two are connected obviously. Then I went sometimes, out of pride, because I couldn't bear the thought of someone thinking of me, "What has he DONE?!" As if they were interested in me when going up to Communion. It's been a wearing down of my pride, but it was six or seven years ago, maybe a bit more, that I decided NEVER to go to Communion improperly disposed - and it is since then that it has been having its effect, as far as I can see.

Sandy, you're right. It's impossible to tell what conversion process is happening in someone's heart while he or she goes up to Communion. In a broader sense, it's pretty darn hard to tell what's going on in their heart at all. Humility and charity are both called for here.

On the other hand, the Church has a great deal of wisdom stored up over 2000 years. I KNOW people, and have seen people undergo the conversion process, drawn by the Eucharist. One woman, about to enter the Church, has told me that if she had received Communion back then (she hasn't yet), she would have been contented with joining in the nice ritual. All the classes about the Church's history, faith, moral life, worship - they've all contributed to a growing desire, not only for the Eucharist, but to get rid of anything that could interfere. She has found herself paring down on unnecessary possessions, giving to the poor more generously, and taking up some pretty intense service work and prayer. She said that she has become more serious about cutting back on sins, and her descriptions strike as authentic. All this, drawn by the Eucharist.

To receive the Eucharist prematurely is very much like entering the marriage bed prematurely. Far from being a step toward deeper communion, as popular wisdom has it, either one is actually a cauterizing or inhibition of deeper communion. I think that's why 75% of couples who live together before marriage divorce within 10 years, whereas only 25% of couples who don't cohabitate before marriage divorce within 10 years.

Good things are always worth waiting for. And if the interior movement of desire is authentically from God, and not some passing whim, then it won't go away, but rather it will intensify.

Neal,

No. Prayer isn't for doing clever tricks, and it isn't magic. Faith isn't making yourself believe that you can move the Washington Monument six inches if you pray "hard enough." Faith isn't believing God will do what you want.

Faith is a commitment to do what GOD wants. Doing something in Jesus' Name means to do it on His behalf, with His authority, as in "Stop, in the name of the law!"

When we are fully committed to doing God's will, He'll do whatever we want, because it will be what He wanted anyway!

"Well, what's the good of that?!" you might ask. God isn't a parlor magician or a prostitute, that you pay for trick, and he does what you want because you said your prayers. God is GOD - not you or me. "The earth is the LORD's and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein," (Ps 24:1). He is the Master of Heaven and Earth, not some pushover pops who does what we say because we want Him too. "But Daddy! I WANT a bicycle! You don't love ME!" doesn't work with God.

The fact that some Pentecostal dies from drinking strychnine hardly proves that God doesn't exist, or doesn't answer prayers.

Prayers aren't primarily to get us what we want, whatever it may be, but to get us into the right relationship with God - that of child to Father. And it is predicated on a real sense of one's own real reliance on Someone entirely beyond oneself, and of trust that the same Someone knows better what's good for us.

Karen,

Thank you for your storied about growing up. You actually touch on a special case - although I am very sorry for your experience.

The Orthodox Churches tend to view Catholics as schismatics and/or heretics, but we do not reciprocate the view. We recognize their baptism, holy orders, and the other sacraments - we recognize their hierarchy as properly constituted, and so forth. They have never departed from the faith and morals of the Church, but only from the hierarchical structure, over an issue that is largely political and fading - the exact amount of authority of the See of Peter and of Ecumenical Councils and of the Bishops individually, with respect to each other. The Catholic Church doesn't see that issue as one that determines or causes disunity, but is simply the basis for continued dialog.

We ask members of the Orthodox Churches to maintain unity with their own Church, to respect the discipline of their hierarchical leadership, and so to refrain from communicating in Catholic parishes (which, as recent news makes clear, the leadership of the Orthodox Churches seriously disapproves of).

For our part, though, particularly in grave circumstances when serious physical or moral obstacles prevent members of the Orthodox Churches from going to their own parishes, provided they are otherwise properly disposed (believe in the Real Presence and not in a state of mortal sin) they are welcome to join us in the Eucharist.

Your situation in Beirut, in France, and also in graduate school here in the States certainly seem to qualify as times when you could not reasonably get to your own Church for the Divine Liturgy.

For our part, the Catholic Church asks us (Catholics) not to attend Orthodox services when we can attend our own, and not to receive Communion there in respect to the wishes of your leadership. If we cannot get to a Catholic parish for Sunday Mass, we can however fulfill our obligation by going to Divine Liturgy at an Orthodox parish. If we truly cannot get to either Catholic or Orthodox parish for the sacred liturgy, then we are dispensed from our Sunday obligation that week.

My aunt is Greek Orthodox, and we have a number of times gone to each other's parishes for Mass (without receiving each other's Communion, because there was no need). It is a shame that our Churches aren't fully united yet, Karen. Let's pray for that day when we are all One in Christ Jesus, so that this silliness can be behind us.

Terra Gazelle,

My apologies for misunderstanding your intentions. Someone else, Arminius, I think, pointed out to me your more likely motivations. Of course the analogy between your Simple Feast and the Eucharist only goes so far, because all analogies break down sooner or later.

The Simple Feast seems to me, for instance, to be an expression of a unity understood to be factual. That is, the people gathered express a unity that IS, whether they had gathered or not. In that sense, it is involuntary - not a matter of will and decision, but of fact. We are all one, like it or not. We just are. And the Simple Feast represents that. Do I understand that right? That also explains why all would be welcome to it - because in a sense, we are all there already.

The Eucharist, on the other hand, expresses a unity that is moral, or voluntary. That is, the people gather there as a decision to perfect a union that they have alread chosen through their whole way of life, and which otherwise would not be there. You and I have an important union in sharing humanity; but unless you and I have both opted for Christ, we haven't got that unity, not at all, in any way. And so for someone to come to His Table without already having consented to His Life makes a farce - a game of playacting - out of the whole thing. That's why non-Catholics, and Catholics unrepented of serious sin, cannot go up to the altar. It has nothing to do with "not being worthy." Nobody is worthy. It has to do with integrity, with not pretending something (a moral union) exists where it doesn't.

In any event, I don't think you wrote anything wrong - I misunderstood your intention. Again, Terra, my apologies.

There seems to be a sentiment from many of the catholics on this thread that it should be a well known fact to non catholics that they should not partake in communion and that priests are clear about it. I'd like to give you my perspective into this to show that the prohibition is anything but clear and from my experience, mainly enforced in conservative catholic parishes in the US.

I grew up in Lebanon during the civil war and was raised in the Orthodox church. We lived in a very dangerous part of Beirut and our parish was on the green line so we often could not make it there for mass. While I was in High school, for a 2 year period, I attended mass at a small catholic chapel right down the street from my house because it was the closest and safest to get to. I sang in the choir and took communion every sunday. The priest and the choir member all knew that I was not catholic but never once said to me that I should not be taking communion. They were welcoming and happy to have me join them every week. I felt loved and accepted and was glad that I was actually able to make it to church.

Fast forward to post college when I lived in France for 3 months and have since visited multiple times to see relatives. My experience there in every church I visited was mainly empty pews, huge beautiful churches with a few older people around the altar during mass. Not once did I hear a priest say to the congregants to only come up to communion if they were catholic. Maybe they assumed that this being France, where hardly anybody goes to church, the congregants must all be catholic? Who knows...

Later on, I was in graduate school in the US. No Orthodox churches within at least 100 miles so I went to catholic mass with my roommate. Very diverse congregants from all over the world. Not once did I hear the priest say that communion was reserved to catholics and my roommate, a cradle catholic, never brought it up.

So all those years I assumed that communion in Catholic churches, was open to all baptized christians. I only found out otherwise a few years ago when attending a friend's wedding in a very conservative catholic parish and I was totally taken aback by the exclusion. Since then, I have heard the exclusion reiterated a few times and will no longer consider going to mass.

Conclusion: the assertion that it is obvious that only Catholics are invited to the Eucharist is a universally known and enforced standard is absolutely not true.

Other Conclusion: from my experience in Lebanon, I have learned that when Christians are oppressed and hunted down as we were, they tend to forget about theological debates and differences and welcome each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. When the pews are empty, as in France, the main concern of the priests is to get people to chuch and not check their pedigree. But when the church is comfortable and prosperous as it is in the US, then we all have time for squabbles and divisions.

I think we would all do well to remember St Augustine's teaching: In the essentials unity, in non essentials liberty, but in all things charity.

The essential part of our faith is that we put our faith in Jesus as our savior. The rest? I doubt that God will hold it against any of us how exactly we understood and explained communion. Remember the thief on the cross in Luke: no baptism, communion, confession etc. All he did was acknowldge Jesus as Lord by saying "Remember me oh Lord in your Kingdom" and Jesus said to him: I tell you tonight you will be with me in Paradise".

To the Anonymous Poster, re: Cannibalism:

"According to Mark Jesus said: These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover. (Mark 16:17-18)"

The first thing to note is that these words of our Lord's are predictions, not commands - and that is a huge difference. Many Christians have done any number of dangerous things because they believed it was God's will - and have come out unscathed. One recalls Mother Teresa entering a combat zone in Beirut in the early 1980s to rescue children stranded there in one of her orphanages.

To put the Lord to the test though, to say, "Hey, I'm a Christian, I can touches snakes - watch this!" is a very serious sin.

John 6 and 15, the entire chapters, make it very clear that Jesus very much wanted us to eat His flesh and drink His blood, so that He could remain in us, and us in Him.

As for cannibalism, what is wrong with cannibalism is not that one eats flesh that happened to have been on one's nextdoor neighbor a bit earlier. What is wrong with cannibalism is that it is opposed to everything in our human nature. We are created to love and serve each other, to build each other up - not to use each other for our own benefit - and cannibalism is exactly that in the fullest and basest sense - using another person for one's own benefit.

It IS our highest nature, our ultimate calling, and the most noble dignity to which we can aspire to be brought into perfect union with the Lord God Creator of Heaven and Earth. It is literally why He made us human beings, to share in His perfect life of love and joy. Spiritual beings are also capable of such, and being spiritual, they do so spiritually. We are hybrids, spiritual and material, and so it fits our nature to do so not in a purely spiritual way, but in a hybrid way.

Supposing this way is how God has created us for communion with Him, then it is not contrary to the moral law, but the very fulfillment of all goodness! In Holy Communion, we eat the Flesh and drink the Blood of Jesus, given freely for us - His Life for us; we in turn give ourselves over to Him - our lives for Him. In cannibalism, the murdered victim is destroyed and the consumer degraded to a state worse than most animals; in Holy Communion the Saving Victim is resurrected and the consumer exalted to a condition that the angels must be tempted to envy! Holy Communion is, though we eat His Flesh and Blood truly, the exact opposite of cannibalism.

We try to be little gods unto ourselves - trying to create a new reality, trying to take for ourselves unnatural powers - but we don't need to do so. God wants to GIVE us god-ness. He wants to give us Himself. But it must be on His terms. Again, I recommend reading John 15, and then John 6. Or better, read John 6, then 15, and then 6 again. Then read one of the Last Supper narratives from Matthew (26:17-30), Mark (14:13-26), or Luke (22:1-32 - my favorite). If you take the Bible seriously, as the Word of God, the exercise is a real eye-opener.

The Holy Eucharist is the seed and first fruit of the fulfillment of all the deepest desires of humanity.

Reading William Donohue's comments on feeling more than "a slightly nauseating sensation" and then interpreting her decision to receive communion as reeking of narcissism is a sad commentary on contemporary Catholicism. While he supports having a dialogue with Jews and Muslims, he seems to be obsessed with "the truth" believing that "the truth" like the existence of God is "out there" waiting to be discovered in the course of history rather than understanding "the truth" as a human construct arrived at through a vigorous methodology. Would that Donohue and Martin be a bit more academically humble and ask the truly Jesus question: "When did I see you naked and not cloth you, or hungry and not feed you or thirsty and not give you to drink.

At least folks now have a better idea of how complicated Catholic beliefs really are.

Transubstantiation is only one of many supernaturally based doctrines - all of which you're required to believe in if you expect to be a member in good standing. If you find this hard to believe, try the Virgin Birth, the Holy Trinity, the Bodily Assumption of Mary into Heaven, or Papal Infallibility. All are required beliefs for practicing Catholics - along with much additional dogma.

I'll bet Sally doesn't fully appreciate how necessary these many additional beliefs are to practicing Catholics....violating the 'rules' governing Holy Communion is only one of many ways to cross orthodox Catholicism.

On the other hand, I don't see how a literal belief in the Bible is an improvement - as a pretty good working definition of Protestant fundamentalism.

It seems to me religious beliefs just take alot of work, period. And then you never know if you're right or wrong....religion is not for the lazy, or for those that require real evidence!

Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia :

Question: What are some do's and don'ts for observing the religious rituals of others?

Answer: Ask the people concerned in what religious ritual a non-adherent of that faith community is allowed to participate and in what they are not.

July 10, 2008 10:18 PM

Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia :

One humble suggestion to avoid such confusion in the future:

1. The priest could announce just before the giving of Holy Communion starts that non-Catholics are to remain seated and not receive Holy Communion; that they may come forward at the end of the distribution of the Holy Communion for a blessing and cross their hands as a sign that want only a blessing.

2. Have unconsecrated hosts and wine which could be distributed in a separate line and/or in a separate corner of the Church for non-Catholics as sign of partaking of a meal without violating the sacredness of the Host in a Catholic sense.

July 12, 2008 1:56 AM

Inviting anyone to Communion outside of Church doctrine is at the discretion of the priest. He alone is answerable to God. Similarly if a person who does not share the Catholic belief receives Communion, it is between that person and God. Taking Communion without sharing the belief remains a communal gesture and not a religious one.

Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia :

Victoria, as an ex-Catholic, who attended Catholic schools and was in training to be a nun in a Franciscan convent for many years, you know Catholic dogmas much better than I, a lay person, do.

I see no sense in going into a discussion with you, a Catholic convert to Islam. I am a Catholic by choice and conviction. That should be sufficient answer for your question. A discussion why I could never be a Muslim is equally meaningless.

July 13, 2008 1:12 AM

E Favorite,

I think we tend to agree on this. I wouldn't want people joining in Communion frivolously, or because everyone else does, or for the novelty; but, if their sincere, well-intentioned understanding of the Eucharist compels them to partake, then surely that's between them and God. He's big enough to sort that out. If you remember my original posting, that was the intention of my message. Who could possibly know what conversion (or "reversion") might have taken place in an individual to lead them up that aisle? I could imagine my dear, late mother doing that...she was a travel agent a number of years ago and had, because of her job, visited several Catholic shrines - Lourdes, Fatima (twice!), Guadalupe, Medjugorje. She gave me a book on Our Lady of Fatima. She was a fallen-away Baptist, so she wasn't even a "near Catholic", yet I suspect had she lived longer she might have taken me up on one of my meek invitations to come to Mass(I never wanted to appear to be proselytizing even to my parents). She was seeking towards the end of her life...who knows where that may have led?

(I have a difficult time staying on task, don't I?)

In most Catholic churches the missals fairly gently state the requirements for receiving the Eucharist (a long version of this is found at http://www.catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp). But these missals aren't always on hand or evident at funerals or weddings where there are often special programs - nor would a visitor necessarily even know to seek that information. So in the absence of such direction, truly, I cannot dispute you, we should only have ourselves to blame. I have a vague recollection of the priest at our wedding stating at the beginning of Communion, "If you are Catholic you may wish to join us in Communion" or something more elegant of that nature, so apparently announcements are sometimes made.

Ryan Haber

A God-idiom as a metaphor of mankind is not all that different than believing in a stone idol, that is carved to look like a man. I do not believe in either.

I have a sense of God, but it is not the God-idiom that seems to color all of your visualizaitons of the world and of human existence.

That is my way of saying that I do not understand religious belief such as yours. And when you speak in complex terms about this belief in this kind of God, supported by Catholic theology, which I have never studied, I am mostly unable to track what is your meaning.

Ryan Haber - I remember the “Tantum ergo” well, from my confirmation classes, which I refer to as “learning how to sing hymns in Latin.” It was all about impressing the Bishop. I loved both singing and foreign languages, so I have no complaints. I do wish the nuns had told us what the words meant, though. Perhaps they didn’t know themselves.

As soon as I saw your Latin verses, I broke into song. It’s been a long time, but it all came back.

Arminius – true, the Episcopalians say “All are welcome” but my recollection is that the following words are always “to the Lord’s table” and said right before communion. If you don’t believe in the Lord, then it detracts from the welcome. Don’t get me wrong – I understand that a church’s mission is to serve its flock, not to be a haven for atheists. What the National Cathedral does, though, is different – it welcomes everyone at the very start of a gathering. I say “gathering” because I haven’t attended an actual religious service there in a while. The Cathedral does a lot in the community, though, and I’m always impressed that they are very inclusive.

Sandy, you ask, "Absolved of their responsibility as pertains to their proper dispositon to receive the Eucharist? Or that they should have intervened and prevented Sally Quinn (and presumably others) from receiving? Or something else entirely?"

“Absolved” was probably not the best choice of words. I know from my catholic heritage that is has special meaning.

And my personal opinion is that Sally should have been left alone, as she was, to make her own decision about communion. What bugged me about some of the responses here is that Sally was charged with gross disrespect, as if she, a non-Catholic visitor there to mourn a friend, were the only one in the church with a responsibility to keep communion out of her hands. It seems to me that if a non-catholic taking communion were such an egregious act, that there should be an established system to prevent it that was not totally dependent on non-Catholics. In the obvious absence of such rules, the onus is not the visitor, but on church members. This is basic courtesy and common sense unrelated to religion and it distresses me that so many Catholics here don’t get it.

As I’ve said elsewhere here, I have many fond memories of my Catholic childhood and still have many good Catholic friends. None of them are like some of the Catholics here (not you!) who are so eager to castigate a visitor while giving a pass to their fellow Catholics.

Ryan,
I was not trying to tell you what to believe...that was far from my mind. I appologize for any misunderstanding.

I was trying to understand the meaning of Communion (I went to the dictionary to clarify my mind) so that I could better understand the common meaning (one in feeling and thought). I am not Catholic, all I can do is translate it to my understanding,to try to find a common understanding. Is the partaking of the wafer and wine not a way to join with Christ? To be one with Christ?

I don't know, all I can do is go by my own religious feelings. When we celebrate the Simple Feast it is a sacred rite... it is different then your's...when we partake of the bread and wine we are partaking of our Gods. We are joining with each other, the elements and our Gods to be One with all.

I was only trying to find a common understanding even if a incomplete one.

I think Ms Quinn felt that she wanted to honor the memory of her friend, and she chose to do that with what he honored, she could be in "Communion" with him.

Terra

Speaking of the early Church Fathers, St. Justin the Martyr, writing in "First Apology" (A.D. 148-155)gives a description of Christian worship which is recognizable as Mass of today and notes:

"We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and has been washed in the washing...For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these...as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our flesh and blood has been nourished, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus."

Roy,

I'm sorry that you have ever been in the "uncomfortable position of being in a Catholic church" but I suppose I can say "attaboy!" for showing up for your friends' or relatives' important days. My own dear grandparents and a much loved friend of mine chose not to come to my wedding because they just couldn't bring themselves to set foot in a Catholic church. I was disappointed but nobody was ugly about it so everything was fine. I much prefer that they felt comfortable enough in our relationship to exclude themselves rather than for me to later discover that they felt they had to force themselves to endure something so unpleasant on my behalf.

It's not a matter of wanting to exclude you - it's there for the offering, and if you understand what we believe about what is being offered, then you know that it is serious and profound and not mere symbol and ritual to us. And if you understand, accept, and believe what we believe, then you would want to receive the Sacrament and you could. I know of a man, a former minister in the Assemblies of God, who was searching and seeking and found himself going to Mass, asking questions after Mass, then eventually going to RCIA (what used to be called "Inquiry" when I was seeking), still holding doubts but earnestly studying. And in the middle of Mass - a small, private Mass being held at the bedside of an ill friend, he suddenly lost his doubts and embraced all he had heard about the Eucharist and and asked that he receive. The priest, who knew him well at this point, gave him communion. It didn't matter that he wasn't "officially" Catholic - what he believes is what matters. The priest, by the way, would probably describe himself as "hardcore" and "by the book" - but he discerned what is important. Belief. (The man later was received "officially" into the Catholic church and last I heard he was entering the seminary to become a priest.) There are plenty of non-believing "offical" Catholics who go up to receive...but only they know who they are and I hope they have the courage to stop.

It seems simple enough - if you don't believe, then you shouldn't feel excluded from something you don't believe in. (I don't feel excluded from the Communist Party, PETA, The Daughters of the Confederacy, NASCAR...an attempt at levity, sorry.) If you do believe, come on along, we'll work it out. If you're not sure what you believe, ask, seek, knock (and see Ryan Haber's posts about what we do believe)...and should you later come to believe, hey, Mass is offered several times a day every day. There's a comfortable seat right next to me.

If I find myself in the uncomfortable position of being in a Catholic Church for a wedding, baptism, first communion, whatever, I just take a little recess outside as the Priest and the congregation hijack Christ's table for their personal exclusive use. I wouldn't think of disrespecting their wishes that I be excluded.

anonymous:

You raise some argumentative questions.

The apostles didn't understand the bread of life discourse in John 6:22-65 at the time either but when many of his disciples left Him, making your point about feeling offended, Jesus didn't back down from it and the apostles stayed with Him ("this is a hard saying"). Regarding the broken bread as the real presence of Christ's glorified body was prevalent in the earliest Church and is documented in the writings of the Church Fathers, such as Ignatius of Antioch, who knew John, in 110 A.D. - and many others.

In Mark 16:15-18, after the Resurrection, Jesus is sending the Apostles out to preach his gospel "to every creature", saying there will be some miraculous signs associated with some of their work - not that they should go out and wrestle snakes.

Receiving Holy Communion is incorporation into the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church.

anonymous:

You raise some argumentative questions.

The apostles didn't understand the bread of life discourse in John 6:22-65 at the time either but when many of his disciples left Him, making your point about feeling offended, Jesus didn't back down from it and the apostles stayed with Him ("this is a hard saying"). Regarding the broken bread as the real presence of Christ's glorified body was prevalent in the earliest Church and is documented in the writings of the Church Fathers, such as Ignatius of Antioch, who knew John, in 110 A.D. - and many others.

In Mark 16:15-18, after the Resurrection, Jesus is sending the Apostles out to preach his gospel "to every creature", saying there will be some miraculous signs associated with some of their work - not that they should go out and wrestle snakes.

Receiving Holy Communion is incorporation into the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church.

Thank you, E Favorite, for this civil and kind exchange.

Please, if you would expand and clarify just a bit here, or perhaps you did in a prior post and I missed it - please forgive me if that is the case.

"...Sally Quinn – she’s taken a real beating for taking communion in a Catholic church, while the many Catholics present on that occasion have been absolved of responsibility"

Absolved of their responsibility as pertains to their proper dispositon to receive the Eucharist? Or that they should have intervened and prevented Sally Quinn (and presumably others) from receiving? Or something else entirely? (Forgive me, sometimes I am a Bear of Very Little Brain)

Those of us who believe in the Eucharist naturally carry the responsibility to receive worthily, a matter that Ryan has expressed more eloquently than I can. If we do receive knowingly in a state of grave sin, we aren't absolved - our sin is compounded. I can only know my own state; I don't assume anything about my fellow communicants, except that we are all sinners and in need of God's grace.

I'm trying to mentally put myself there, at a high-profile funeral of a well-known Catholic and someone I assume not to be Catholic - but do I KNOW that to be the case - goes up to receive communion...do I make some effort to speak out, create a scene, thereby distracting from the Sacrament, and possibly offending the family of the deceased? Or continue to pray for all in attendance?

I was drawn to the Catholic church in my childhood, but it was my experience in attending Mass at a church staffed by the Paulist Fathers that cemented my desire to further explore and ultimately be baptised and confirmed a Catholic. Their warm, all-welcoming approach was evident not just in the priests, but in that wonderful parish. There they do make an effort to welcome and celebrate all - maybe because it is adjacent to a very, very large and diverse university, but I think it is more at the core of the Paulists' approach in general. That and service to all, love of all. I was so fortunate to have my first, formative years as a Catholic with them. Perhaps you had a broader meaning to "All people are welcome" but I assure you, in my experience, all are welcome. I hope that is what we all aspire to...regardless of our faith traditions or the absence thereof.

*extending my hand across the wide internet*
Peace be with you

Ryan Haber wrote:

"That God can do anything that is not logically self-contradictory..."

"It is enough, particularly, because everything else He [Jesus] told us has so patently turned out, is turning out, to be true in our experience."

Jesus said:

"Amen, I say to you, if you have faith and do not waver, not only will you do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea' it will be done. Whatever you ask for in prayer with faith, you will receive." Matthew 21:21

"For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you." Matthew 17:20

"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." Mark 11:12

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it." John 14:12-14

Given these unequivocal statements by Jesus and your assertions, why has he NEVER healed an amputee despite supposedly healing other people? Apparently healing people is not something that is logically self-contradictory for God, so have all prayerful amputees been faithless? If 1 million faithful Christians prayed to move the Washington Monument 6 inches in any direction will it be moved? If not, was Jesus just stretching the truth a little? Was he misquoted?

(By the way, I can and do make objects so big I can't lift them all the time--every time I mix some concrete--and yet this is something we are told God can't do.)

Apparently you haven't learned anything.

Apologize so we can all move on.

E Favorite,

“We welcome all people.”
Many Episcopal churches do just that, as I am sure you know.

The problem of communication between believers and non-believers lies on both sides. You and I, if I may be so bold, represent the best of this, because we agree to disagree without harsh words or accusations. But many non-believers hold me as demented, or simply stupid. Even Mr Mark, for all his intelligence and politeness, can slip into that mode. Of course, on the other side, the religious critics spewing rejection, or, worse, hatred, are legion....

It's gonna be a long, difficult road.

Arminius

Sandy- Thanks so much for your thoughtful response.

I agree with Arminius and Ryan – You rock.

The rest of what I have to say is inspired by your comments, but is not directed to you.

Most people do bring their personal baggage here and though it sometimes can get nasty, it can also enrich the discussion. It makes us “real people” and not just floating thoughts on the internet.

Of course people have disagreements and different points of view about religion. As a recent atheist, I notice that atheists can be a special object of derision. Believers may deride certain other religions privately, but our culture generally expects us to be inclusive of “people of all faiths” in public. This inclusiveness has not yet been extended to people of no faith. Belief in God, no matter how he is worshipped, seems to be the basis for respect in our culture. Those who worship no God are still suspect in our culture.

Thus, open-minded believers who wouldn’t think giving a pre-emptive no-proselytizing warning to people of other faiths, will pre-emptively warn off atheists. People who know they don’t live up to the moral code of their own religion, will blithely inform atheists that they have no morals at all, and religious people will say that atheists believe in nothing just because we don’t believe in gods.

And getting back to Sally Quinn – she’s taken a real beating for taking communion in a Catholic church, while the many Catholics present on that occasion have been absolved of responsibility.

I’d like to see more people start to naturally say what I’ve heard at the National Cathedral: “We welcome people of all faiths and people of no faith.”

Someday, maybe it will be cool to simply say, “We welcome all people.”

Sandy,

You are truly a good person, and so is your husband. And so is Ryan. I am not Roman Catholic, so we have many differences - but many similarities.

Gandhi once said, to a Christian street preacher in India, who asked him why he could not convert anyone, "If you lived your religion, instead of just preaching it, then everyone would want to be a Christian."

Arminius

Ryan Haber and Arminius:

Thank you for your kindness, it is much appreciated. And Ryan, I had earlier composed a comment that said, in effect, "Ryan Haber, you rock!" but I was interrupted and lost the post. I appreciate the depth of your knowledge, your personal witness and experience of the Catholic faith, and the thoughtful manner in which you express yourself.

Much of your post (of July 15, 2008 2:26 PM) where you describe the person you were before ("...a big ass") compared to the person you are now that you have committed yourself to living your faith - that same transformation is much the same as that experienced by my husband (oh, which is not to say that I have ever been much less of an ass myself). He's always been a good husband and father, but in the last several years since he matured as a Catholic and committed himself to daily prayer there has been such a transformation in the man - a real, substantive change in the way he approaches everything and everyone. This change has been such a blessing to us and to others...he is quicker to pitch in and help people in need - I no longer am the one to try to make a case for serving others beyond just our family - it comes now as part of his nature. He is more loving, caring, tolerant, and patient. I've heard him explaining our faith, carefully, thoughtfully and patiently, much as you express yourself. As I mentioned in an earlier post, we live in a region that is only about 4% Catholic and where much anti-Catholic sentiment still exists - before, he wouldn't have "wasted" his time trying to explain or discuss - nor would he have been able to in any depth. Now he does and doesn't offend, just expresses or informs when the occasion merits. He didn't do this himself - this is only through the Holy Spirit that this has come about and remained. He spends an hour each week in Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, and even though this is after work, at midnight, he says he can barely tear himself away. I've gone with him a few times and I understand. Adoration accelerated this growth he has experienced. More and more he is becoming a spirit led, gentle man.

And in another aspect of substance, reality, appearance: If only everyone who called themselves Christian would try, just try a little bit, to BE, in substance and appearance, really Christian...would all of our problems go away...no, but think what could be done with a greater abundance of love, tolerance, and charity. I've seen it on a small scale in my life and it has been awesome.

I can't help but think that if a political personality was involved in this question the judgement from the press would be harsh and unforgiving. It would be a politician's job to know the culture that he/she was entering into. He/She would be expected to do the homework and know what was acceptable and what was not.

In entering the place of worship, Ms. Quinn -- a reporter specializing in religion -- did not do her homework. She participated at her own invitation, and not at the invitation of the priest. In all the instances that she quotes where non-Catholics participated in the communion, they were invited by church official. Having received no invitation, her case is different from those she cited.

Having said that, it is heart wrenching to loose a close friend so unexpectedly. And in our moments of greif, we mere mortals often do not do our homework, we are more likely to be led by our emotions. When we wake up to the consequences of our actions, a sincere apology is always appreciated. Attempts at justification just seem to deepen the offence.

During the Eucharist and by way of transubstantiation the bread is turned into the body of Jesus and likewise the wine is turned into his blood. And the whole essence of the ritual is the eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking his blood. Maybe I am missing something here but since when is it okay to eat someone’s flesh? Isn’t considered cannibalism when you do that or is okay when that person being eaten is Jesus, who according to the Christians is god. Are you saying eating god is a good thing and in fact a necessary affair. Some people say it is symbolic; what if you have a chance to be some place with the real thing. What happens then? Will you get down to the business of eating him after the introduction?

I have this mental image of Christians or specifically Catholics having been transported to the time of Jesus. And I imagine those guys, two billion plus of them, each with a fork and a knife at hand chasing Jesus around Galilee trying to eat him. And I imagine Jesus running for his life saying: be reasonable people, why in the world would you want to eat me? Where did you get such a silly idea anyway? Oh, wait a minute they have to wait for him to die to have such a feast. It is not really nice to eat a person who is alive. So the scene changes and two billion plus of them would be waiting at the foot of the cross waiting for Jesus to die.

Why is it necessary to eat Jesus anyway? And what good does come from such a cannibalistic ritual symbolic or real? I don’t get it. Some would point to what Jesus had said in the gospel of John. He might have said that and again he may not have. Christians and specifically Catholics then should obey what Jesus said in Mark too.

According to Mark Jesus said: These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover. (Mark 16:17-18)

If you believe what Jesus said in John you should also believe what he said in Mark too; why not handle snakes and drink deadly poison? Jesus says believers won’t be hurt by them. So obviously, if you’re hurt by them, you’re not a true believer. Sounds like a good test to me. The Christians should be willing to drink a deadly mixture of cyanide to see if they are protected as Jesus supposedly says? This is something that can be tested; If it’s true then Jesus said it if not then he didn’t. I have a hunch that no one would be fool enough to take such a test. As it is there are countless people in the Appalachian Mountains who lost their lives believing such ridiculous thing. Why, because Jesus said it and it is in the bible.

for the record ryan- i'm not proposing my concept- and aquinas did part ways with aristotle as far as material and spiritual (miraculous) explanations for reality and causation-

but that is a headache i left a while ago- and dont want to revisit-

ryan!
you translated that yourself?

impressive!!!!

Hmmm, and after 482 previous commentaries, the Catholic, Lutheran and Episcopalian Eucharist is still a low calorie, sometimes stale wafer and/or a sip of inexpensive, sometimes sour wine.

One of the most beautiful hymns in the Catholic repertoire is the Pange Linga ("Sing, My Tongue") written by St. Thomas Aquinas. The last two verses are familiar to most Catholics in the original and in numerous translations and paraphrases:

Tantum ergo Sacramentum
Veneremur cernui:
Et antiquum documentum
Novo cedat ritui:
Praestet fides supplementum
Sensuum defectui.

Genitori, Genitoque
Laus et jubilatio,
Salus, honor, virtus quoque
Sit et benedictio:
Procedenti ab utroque
Compar sit laudatio.
Amen.

"So great, therefore, a Sacrament
Let us venerate bowed.
And let the Old Covenant
to the New Rite yield.
Let faith stand forth as supplement
To the failure of the senses.

To the Begetter and the Begotten,
Praise and jubilation,
Salvation, honor, and strength
Be, and blessing too:
To to the One proceeding from them both
And let equal praises be.
Amen." (translation my own)

When a Catholic priest holds up the Eucharist and says "the Body of Christ" and you receive it (with or without saying Amen), by your actions you are saying indeed I believe this is truly the Body of Christ. If you don't believe it and you take it, then you are acting contrary to your own beliefs. (Unlike a mouse who does not act contrary to his belief when he nibbles on a consecrated host). Anyhow, this is not a good thing. We all need to strive for greater purity in our actions. I urge you Ms. Quinn to just act according to your beliefs at this time. If you do not believe something, do not confuse yourself or others by acting in a contrary manner.
The Eucharist is so sacred to Catholics because it is such an awesome gift. The idea that God could humble himself so much (even beyond becoming a human person) as to offer His Whole Self in what by all appearances is just bread and wine is such an extraordinary concept that to believe the priest can effect such a change takes plenty of faith and plenty of grace. (In fact, the one and only time recorded in Scripture that Jesus lost disciples was when he proclaimed this truth in John 6--some disciples found this teaching too hard and left. John 6:66). As Catholics, most of us respond to this immense gift like Peter and the apostles who, upon hearing Jesus say that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, and then were asked by Christ if they too wanted to leave, answered: "Master, to whom shall we go, you have the words of eternal life". In other words, they did not understand how this could be but believed anyway. Faith first.
If you are accustomed to praying, Ms. Quinn, take your actions to prayer and God will guide you. He loves sincerity, humility, and prayer from the heart.

My condolences on the loss of your dear friend.

ps to Neal: Peter and the apostles walked with Christ for three years, received Christ at the Last Supper and then denied and abandoned Him after He was arrested. How could someone so close to Jesus do that? There is a lesson in this. Our journey requires daily effort. Why else would St Paul pray that he finish the race? Because he knew he had free will to say no to love at any given moment. God never removes our free will even if we receive him daily. Perhaps you are not seeing transformation in Catholics because there are too many who are receiving unworthily, which, as Scripture tells us, brings condemnation upon ourselves. All Catholics are on notice, receive with care.

ryan, aristotelian interpretations aside- you have centered on the heart of the matter-
the physical manisfestations (which have been argued ad infinitum already)have no real bearing upon the belief and attitude you are cultivating in your approach to the eucharist.

having said that- i seem to remember some liguorian story about a church in spain which actually has an undecomposed bit of flesh and blood allegedly from a physically transformed eucharist-

but centruies old miracles notwithstanding- i am refreshed by your respect and reverence and your practice

Daniel in the Lion's Den,

Right you are, in the first point; in the second, couldn't be wronger. Please allow me to explain, friend.

"But anyone can say anything is other than what it appears to be. Such declarations cannot be proved or disproved..."

Of course anyone can saying anything is whatever. And of course such claims can't be proved or disproved. In fact, for our general, day-to-day natural lives, such claims are just silly. What do I care if someone claims that my laptop isn't REALLY a laptop, but only looks like one, if it in fact acts like one and if in fact I can use it as one. I can still write my blog, do my taxes, complete work assignments, and email my friends. Why should it matter if someone says to me that it is REALLY a spoon?

Many things we humans believe are susceptible to reasonable proof, or at least to evidence - such as weather predictions, laws of aerodynamics, etc.

Some things are less provable or evident, but still somewhat. I cannot PROVE that my mother loves me, although I do have plenty of evidence and lots of good reason. It's not the sort of thing susceptible to scientific experimentation, but it's no less real therefore.

Now, as for the case of the Eucharist, we in the Catholic Church exactly agree with you about its nonprovability and nondisprovability. It is entirely unprovable. We're fine with that, because we do not believe it as a matter of the senses, but as a matter of faith. We are not shocked that others don't believe it; not like we would all of us be shocked to find someone who thought high doses of electricity was beneficial to the health. In fact, we rather expect most people not to agree with us.

To all appearances, the Eucharist is just bread and wine.

But our Blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ told us otherwise, and for us that is enough. It is enough, particularly, because everything else He told us has so patently turned out, is turning out, to be true in our experience. If he had said that "purple" and "not-purple" are the same, then I would say he is an illogical nonsense-speaker. If he had said, "I will be hanged by a neck with a rope," when he turned out to be crucified, I should think he wasn't even a very prophetic prophet. But because things are often not what they appear, and because he has power over all creation, and He has in a sense only asked me to believe that the Eucharist, too, is not what it appears to be, I can believe Him.

As to whether I DO in fact believe Him (I do), that cannot be my own doing, but is a supernatural gift.

"...and believing in them or not believing in them has no particular purpose or relevance for or against anything."

Well, in the case of someone telling me that my laptop is really a spoon, of course their chatter makes no difference. A laptop is merely a laptop, and a spoon a spoon, and both are determined by their function. If the spoon functions as a laptop, then it is no spoon, whatever it is called, but a laptop.

In a sense, you're right here, too, because whether someone believes the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus is completely irrelevant to whether it is. But whether it is the Body and Blood of Jesus, though unverifiable to the senses, makes all the difference in the world. It is the difference between being brought into communion with the Eternal and Transcendent, the Source of life and knowledge and joy and peace, the first Movement of the universe and the final Rest of all things, the joy of man's desiring (on the one hand) and (on the other hand) merely eating a piece of bread. On the one hand, I would expect regular, commited reception of the Eucharist to bring me a more transcendent viewpoint, a deeper way of living, greater knowledge of the meaning and value of things, more joy, more profound peace, more responsive intuition and more relaxed demeaner, and the joy that surpasses all understanding. The transformation would not happen instantaneously - what human transformation does? But it should slowly but surely happen. On the other hand, I would expect eating a piece of bread once a week to, well, disqualify me for the Atkins Diet, and not much else.

It is a great, maybe the greatest scandal of the Catholic Church, that we are so few of us made manifestly better people by our reception of the Holy Eucharist.

That is, in part, because so many receive it improperly disposed - approaching our Blessed and Sinless Lord while soaked in sin is like taking a shower in a raincoat. Not terribly effective.

Moreover, so few of us - not only Catholics, but people in general - really feel the need to change. We haven't hit (and perhaps our lifestyles won't quickly lead us to hit) "rock-bottom" as AA members say, where a radical change is life is obviously needed. Most of us think that if any tinkering is needed in our character or personality, just a bit will do. We think we're basically OK - or at least we tell ourselves and others that we are. That's one reason I respect the AA and related movements so much: those are people who KNOW they need to change. This point is important because if we do not believe that we need to change, we can hardly be expected to willingly collaborate in change, or even tolerate it, given all the implied inconvenience.

And God will not change us while we are unwilling. He gave us freedom, and respects that gift. We fell, and fall, into sin by our own free will, and will not be restored against it.

This experience is very much my own, Daniel in the Lion's Den. You see, I am a big ass. I have always, looking back, been a big ass. There are a number of friends who can corroborate my description of myself, though my ego hopes they wouldn't. And I for years received the Eucharist - the Body and Blood, the very Life, of Jesus Christ - into my own body, blood, and life, so unconsciously, so unprepared, so undisposed that it amazes me now. Mass was an inconvenience to me, and Holy Communion was just what you did kinda near the end. It was second nature to go up, and second nature not to think or care about it. Into my teenager years I fell into many of the unhealthy ways that many teenagers fall into, and so fortified myself all the more against Him.

For the last seven or eight years, though, I have made a real effort to do things differently. I go to Mass daily, and the Eucharist whenever I am properly disposed - never when I am aware of an unconfessed serious sin, or even a lesser one that is just bothering me; never without having prepared by at least a little fasting; usually first thing in the morning, on the way to work. I pay attention to the scripture lessons and the homily. I meditate on the actions leading up to the Communion. I pray while receiving our Blessed Lord into me.

And let me tell you, Daniel in the Lion's Den, it's made all the diffference in the world. I am still an ass, but not quite so big a one as before, I hope my friends would say. I can see my shortcomings more clearly than before (nine or ten years ago I didn't think I had any). I try harder, and with more success, to be gentle, patient, attentive with other people. It is easier for me to go further out of my way for them, to sacrifice for those closer to me, to put aside old grudges. Envy gnaws at me less, anger only surges in me once in a while.

Is it because I have been receiving the Eucharist in a new way these last several years? I cannot say for sure, but I know I could not have done it on my own. The two things coincide, but it seems odd that they should be merely a coincidence.

Anyway, Daniel in the Lion's Den, I appreciate your posts a great deal. They are sharp and usually carefully worded. I don't know if you are religious at all, but maybe you can toss up a prayer for me. For what it's worth, you'll have my prayers as well.

Hi, Ryan Haber,

You are right, Sandy rocks!

As to your argument re transubstantiation, you said:
(1) There is more to reality than the merely material;
(2) That our Lord declared/intended to change bread and wine into flesh and blood;
(3) That God can do anything that is not logically self-contradictory

#1 - agreed
#2 - not agreed, IMHO not necessary for the sacrament, not supported by scripture
#3 - not agreed, see #2

As always, we agree to disagree, and I have no other quarrel with your position.

God bless,

Arminius

Sandy, you rock!

But anyone can say anything is other than what it appears to be. Such declarations cannot be proved or disproved, and believing in them or not believing in them has no particular purpose or relevance for or against anything.

Victoria,

The Benedictine motto is "Ora et Labora," or "Work and Pray," and toward that end, the Rule of St. Benedict intends that each brother or sister in the community be engaged several hours daily in work that is conducive to contemplation - gardening, manual labor (like dishwashing, sweeping/scrubbing), etc. Work and prayer are not exclusive of each other, but can be harmonized and even, under the right circumstances, undertaken simultaneously. The rosary is a prayer method that is also suited to such combination. The Benedictine path is one of balance, each day combining times for work, prayer, recreation, meals, and study, inter al.

Now, as for your question about the Eucharist. There isn't an easy answer to it because of your use of the word "physical." The modern world, and those of us who dwell therein, typically takes a reductionist approach to understanding reality. The only things considered real are the physical. Other things are, accurately or not, reduced to physical explanations.

This schema isn't one in which the world has traditionally thought, though. Many of what we call "physical properties" come under the tradition Aristotelian/Thomist category of "accidents," or those properties of a thing that could be changed without changing WHAT the thing is (but only HOW it is). For instance, the dimensions of a table might be long and narrow, or it might be a square with sides of equal length. Either way, it is still a table because length and width are physical properties accidental to the table. Essential to the table, on the other hand, is a flat surface; without a flat surface, the thing might be a nice couch, an interesting toaster, or whatever, but is cannot at all be a table. The table might be brown or metal and still be a table, but without that flat surface, it is not a table.

What is changed in transubstantiation is WHAT the bread is - it goes from being bread and wine to body and blood. HOW it is, those properties that aren't essential, but only accidental, to it being bread (size, weight, color, etc.) remain the same. These things are mostly what are called the "physical properties" in modern, materialist science. That's fine. Not denying the usefulness of those terms for discussing normal, natural phenomena.

What I, along with the Catholic Church, and most people the world over, deny is that the physical, material description of a thing is all there is to that thing. My identical twin brother and I, for argument's sake, aren't two instances or copies of the same thing, just because our physical properties are the same. We are not only separate physically, but truly different things. Our physical properties aren't all that there is too us.

If you believe that all there is to the world is its material components, then you are a materialist/reductionist. That's fine. I'm not arguing that position right now, but only pointing it out as the reason why transubstantiation is implausible - because anything immaterial is implausible from such a viewpoint.

But if you believe that:
(1) There is more to reality than the merely material;
(2) That our Lord declared/intended to change bread and wine into flesh and blood;
(3) That God can do anything that is not logically self-contradictory; then
(***) Transubstantiation, the changing of bread-and-wine into flesh-and-blood while leaving physical appearances intact, is in fact possible and has been done at least by Him.

In which case the only question is whether He intended to transmit the power/authority to do likewise to any or all of his disciples, and under what conditions.

Fastforwarding a bit, yes, I do know that what appears fully to all physical senses to be only bread and wine are in fact the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, True God and True Man, lacking nothing essential either to his divinity or humanity.

to soja again-

sorry i left a word out-

do you believe in the transubstantiation of the eucharist? that it is the literal and real substance and PHYSICAL presence of the christ in the host?

soja- that actually is the big difference between spiritual retreats, where guests are not expected to live in the same manner as their hosts- and laypeople spending time at a benedictine monastery-

benedictines work- maybe in europe they only do it one hour a day- but sally is in america-
believe it or not- american catholics can be quite strict about the practice of their faith-

which leads me to an earlier question i asked you before-
i know you're a liberal catholic- i'm all for liberalism myself.
(although i could not personally reconcile my liberalism with what the church teaches and believes)

you stated on another post this-

"Luckily I'm a lay liberal Catholic who does not have to make decisions about which non-Christian/non-Catholic/or even Catholic (not eligible under the present Canon Law) may be given Communion in exceptional circumstances, for I would give Communion to anyone who asked for it and leave the rest to God.

July 14, 2008 3:21 AM

well, that is indeed fine- but you don't have to decide for others-

but what have you decided for yourself? that is really the only question that matters-

in catholicism- some questions are simply yes or no- the authority of the pope for instance-
there are allowances for quibbling about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin- but the issue of transubstantiation leaves no wiggle room at all-

you either belive it literally- or you commit heresy-
there is no in-between- even the most liberal priest will not debate this as it has been argued out for centuries by the doctors of the church-

if on believes in, say, consubstantiation- one no longer (according to church law) is welcome in the catholic church-

but what you've stated isn't even consubstantiation - but ubiquitarianism- which even the very liberal lutherans reject (and their concept is rejected by the church as too insubstantial)

http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/display.asp?t1=U&t2=b

the adoration of and reception of the eucharist is the most sacred and everpresent sacrament a catholic can partake in- and is the smeinal core upon which the church is built-

to reject this foundation is to reject the catholic church-
so- it's a yes or no-
as a born and raised catholic- do you believe in the transubstantiation of the eucharist? that it is the literal and real substance and presence of the christ in the host?

E-Favorite,

Sorry, carelessness again on my part. Rather than "last paragraph" in my most recent post, I meant the one you referenced, "next-to-last paragraph". I caught that only right after I pressed 'post'.

Thank you for your patience with me.

E-Favorite:

I am so sorry that the intent of my message was overshadowed by my last comment. It really wasn't meant to be hurtful or dismissive. I parted with, "I respect your rights and peace be with you," and I mean it.

The handful of times that I have dared to speak my heart in a setting such as this, I have often been attacked for being Catholic. And being Catholic is not just a belief system that can be excised from me at this point - it is a part of who I have become, so it feels personal when that happens. I even made some very benign, positive comments regarding a video on GodTube and you wouldn't believe the venom that poured in, solely because I identified myself as Catholic. I live in a community that has until very recently been very anti-Catholic, openly and publicly (this is not where I grew up - I was fortunate to live in a much more tolerant and diverse city). Add to that the reference I made about family: my brother-in-law is so incredibly anti-Catholic that he won't let me in his house to visit my sister, wouldn't let me have anything to do with "his" kids before they grew up - only because he discovered that my husband and I are Catholic when he visited our home and saw our "Catholic Bible". It's his problem, not mine, I've never made any issue out of being Catholic, I'm never the one who brought it up. He married my sister long after I converted so it's not as if there was any big discussion on-going about my becoming Catholic.

So it's mostly personal baggage that was speaking in that last paragragh, but I'm not alone in bringing personal baggage to this forum. I really wasn't aware until you pointed it out that I was being pre-emptively defensive. I really thought that I was just making a statement for my faith - that I've been challenged and worn and torn and my faith still manages to hang in and sustain me. And if I may, my now adult daughter is not a believer, she often points me towards Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens - and I respect and love her just the same as ever. She is respectful and intelligent about the way she communicates and we have very interesting, informative discussions on faith. Because of the mutual respect we continue to be very close and this is not a divisive matter at all.

My feeling is that faith is a personal matter and should be respected. We can have our differences but nothing that we say matters if we don't do our best to live it. Mother Theresa never cared that the people she nursed and took care of believed in Buddha, Vishnu, Jesus, or nothing at all. She only cared that she was doing her best to be the face and hands of Jesus to all she encountered, showing pure love as best she could in her humanity.

The bottom line to what I intended to communicate is that if no disrespect was intended (by Ms. Quinn), even if by outward appearances she 'should have known better' then no real offense was committed. Obviously she is more informed at this point and probably won't repeat the same action. I hope this sentiment can apply to me, as well, in my awkward attempts to speak my heart. Someday I will learn to fully open my arms, reveal my heart, without trying to guard it with one hand or the other.

Again, peace be with you, and everyone.

Viejita del oeste:

Thank-you Soja and Mary and Ryan and all the others who have so patiently tried to shed light on this issue.

One thing -- Soja wrote (in response to "Those who marry outside of their faith are not supposed to take Communion...")

"[Soja's] response: Catholics are allowed to marry outside their faith AND receive Communion. As far I know anyone marrying in the Catholic Church is only obliged to raise the children as Catholics. The non-Catholic spouse is not expected to convert."

Church regulations don't even require you to raise the children Catholic anymore -- except maybe if you are married in a Catholic ceremony -- although they do encourage you to do so. The Catholic Church recognizes baptism and matrimony in another church. I know because I was baptised Dutch Reformed and married in the Congregational Church before I became Catholic, and I have not been required to repeat either ceremony. My husband was nominally Catholic to start with and being married to a Protestant would not have stopped him from being eligible for communion. (What stopped him was that he never went to mass in the first place.)

The sticking point is when someone remarries in a different church without receiving an annulment in their previous marriage. Then they can't receive communion because they are technically living in sin with their new spouse -- technically they may even be committing adultery -- because they are still technically married to their ex.

Just to set the record straight.

July 13, 2008 6:13 PM

================================

Viejita del oeste

Thank you for your kind words and additional information about Catholic Church rules. It is nice to know that you are a convert to Catholicism.

As an ordinary lay Catholic, I'm not particularly informed about Catholic Church doctrines. My information about marriage with non-Catholics in a Catholic Church comes from having known a couple of interfaith marriages. Of course I meant marrying in a Catholic Church.

I know too that annulment of a marriage in a Catholic church is the equivalent of a divorce in other Christian Churches, except that the conditions for annulment is much harder. Once upon a time the conditions were even stricter, almost impossible. Only marriage under duress, insanity (real, not fabricated for the sake of getting a divorce!) of one partner and childlessness were considered valid reasons for annulment. Annulment for adultery makes perfect sense since even Jesus permitted divorce for that reason. It is not right to punish the partner who was cheated, and the cheated partner should be allowed to remarry.

This is just my personal opinion: As far as giving Communion to Catholics for political "positions" or sin of any kind: I feel Communion should be offered because all of us need the mercy and forgiveness of Jesus. When Catholics sin (which all of us do to a lesser or greater degree) they need the mercy of Jesus even more. All Christians who are not anti-Catholics (who would probably come to a Catholic church in the first place) should likewise be offered Communion in the Catholic Church. It is important to concentrate on what we have in common - Jesus and His atoning work for our sins - rather than focus on the differences. I'm very keen about Christian unity. How wonderful it would be if all Christians were truly united in love and worked harmoniously together. Since we make up one third of the world's population, what a mighty force for good we could be. We can be engaged better and more meaningfully in interfaith dialogue only when we can prove to non-Christians that we are united as Christians.

And Victoria, as an afterthought on the topic you raised, I do not think it is necessary for Sally to become a Catholic. I was merely suggesting a way for her to learn about Catholicism from a good perspective (given all the Catholic bashing that seems to be prevalent on this forum and elsewhere in the US), not least because she is the moderator of an On Faith forum. If she should ever choose to become a Christian someday (at this stage she is more an agnostic or a believer in God with no specific religious inclination) there are other Christian denominations she would consider. Her father was a very devout Episcopalian and Jon Meacham, her spiritual mentor, is likewise an Episcopalian. So it might be her natural choice. She may find it impossible to join the Catholic Church because she disagrees with many Church doctrines, or whatever. It is not important. She should go where the Holy Spirit leads her. That is enough for me.

VICTORIA:

soja- do you even have any clue who the benedictines are?

i know youre a great devotee of bede griffith's-

and i suspect because he was a benedictine- that is where you get your ideas-

but his ashram in india didnt really replicate the actual mission of benedictines all over the world-

it's NOT a happy time relaxation and retreat-

the difference between benedictines, and say, trappists or domincans- is that their is the order of activity and work-

the bede was of a more contemplative nature-

the benedictines are more active involvement and basically- WORK-

also their prayer schedule is pretty rigid- they recite all of the prayers of opus dei every day- that alone is VERY catholic and requires several hours-

when people visit a benedictine monsatery- they also are required to work with their hands in the afternoon-

(also, there are 73 different "rules" each at least a page long)

did you even read what you linked?

i imagine the laid back relaxing atmosphere of bede griffith's retreat, a blend of hindu meditation and catholicism-
would be more to sally's liking-

i think that is what you were imagining-

July 13, 2008 2:43 PM

=======================================

Victoria

Thank you for your comments. I found another link to information about Saint Benedict of Nursia and the Benedictine Order:

http://www.osb.org/gen/benedict.html

I apologize if I mistook the book 'The Holy Rule of Benedict' for the Rule of Saint Benedict.

http://www.osb.org/gen/rule.html

==================================

Victoria: soja- do you even have any clue who the benedictines are?

Soja: I'm a half baked Benedictine (lay) Oblate of Shantivanam, the Indian Christian Ashram of Dom Bede Griffiths OSB (an English Benedictine monk). Fr Bede conducted the first of the two initiation ceremonies for me on 22 February 1992. He uses a combined Benedictine - Hindu sannyasa spiritual understanding. Accordingly he chose in addition to a New Testamant passage (Gospel of John), also a passage from the Bagavad Gita (including a new name for me). I had to choose my favourite Psalm (mine is 139). The second and final ceremony was to be conducted one year later, as per Benedictine monastery rules. But I could not return to India and Fr Bede passed away 13 May 1993.

In his autobiography, The Golden String, Fr Bede detailed his life in the Benedictine monastery in England. He had already served as Prior in England before he came to India. The Christian Ashram in India which Fr Bede took over (two French Benedictine monks had founded it) is structured very much on Benedictine traditions even if it incorporated some Hindu rituals and prayers and reading of Scripture from other faith traditions during afternoon and evening prayers.

I have spent some time in a lay Buddhist-Christian community affiliated to a German Benedictine monastery.

Victoria: i know youre a great devotee of bede griffith's-

Soja: I'm not a "devotee" of Dom Bede Griffiths OSB. I'm a Christian and Fr Bede made it clear to me that the Holy Spirit is my spiritual guide. Fr Bede did not play god or "guru" in anyone's life, he was merely a spiritual guide in the Christian sense. He is referred to as a guru ("guru") only because he lived like an Indian Sannyasi and integrated Hindu spirituality into Christian worship and was a great Christian pioneer in opening up to the wisdom of other religious traditions. However many Hindus are ahead of him in the matter of interfaith understanding. So he was merely doing for Christianity what Hindus had already done from a Hindu perspective.

Victoria: but his ashram in india didnt really replicate the actual mission of benedictines all over the world-

Soja: The Christian Ashram of Fr Bede Griffiths expected lay guests to work only for one hour per day as a lay person would in a German Benedictine monastery for example (during non-retreat days in the German monastery guests are expected to work for four hours).

What mission does a contemplative order like the Benedictines have to accomplish except ORA ET LABORA, to live their life quietly in prayer, study and work (mostly simple work that keeps the monastery self sufficient)? During retreats even the monks are not required to work their regular hours. Fr Bede's Ashram is a combination of a Hindu Ashram and a Benedictine monastery. Members of the Ashram live by different rules to the guests and each have their own area of work and responsiblity.

Victoria: it's NOT a happy time relaxation and retreat-

Soja: The living condition is extremely simple and ascetic. The day in the Ashram starts at 5.00 AM and finish at 9.15 PM for those who follow the rules. There are prayers five times a day, including Mass every morning. Two hours for personal prayer/meditation in addition, is part of the daily program. All meals, simple vegetarian, are taken silently (according to the Benedictine tradition one person reads aloud from a book). The mealtime at which talking is allowed is during two coffee breaks in the morning and evening. There are sometimes lectures by different people in the morning or afternoon. Meeting people happens naturally, but one is generally expected to maintain an atmosphere of calm in the Ashram in keeping with the intention to spend time quietly in prayer or study. Drugs and alcohol is strictly prohibited.

The day is thus structured with activities that is meant to bring happiness and relaxation to the soul.

Victoria: (also, there are 73 different "rules" each at least a page long)did you even read what you linked?

Soja: Once again I apologize if I provided the wrong link in my last post. Yes, I have read the German translation of the original book 'Rule of Benedict.'

Victoria: i imagine the laid back relaxing atmosphere of bede griffith's retreat, a blend of hindu meditation and catholicism-
would be more to sally's liking- i think that is what you were imagining-

Soja: I happen to know the difference between a Benedictine monastery in Europe and the Christian Ashram of Fr Bede in India. If you must know, Fr Bede considered the Benedictine monastery too "luxurious" compared to Indian Ashrams. Fr Bede was extremely ascetic. That is why he opted for a harsher style of asceticism for himself.

Life in Shantivanam is pretty harsh compared to Western monasteries. There is nothing laid back and relaxing about the asceticism. Westerners like Sally could hardly last one day of it. So, don't worry I was recommending a comparatively luxurious version of a monastic environment for Sally.

Please note that I was NOT asking Sally to stay at a Benedictine monastery, but merely to visit it and maybe join their prayers sometime and talk to a deeply prayerful monk who is an experienced spiritual counselor for Sally to get to know a little more about Catholicism.

I do not believe in forcing religion on anyone. I'm sufficiently confident about the merits of Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular that I see no need to use any kind of coercion. What use does coercion serve anyway? The journey of a soul to God is between that soul and God. It is hallowed ground into which no bumbling human being may enter. The Holy Spirit is the ultimate guide. Not even the holiest man or woman dare try to take the place. We may at best say our little piece and back off for the soul to make completely free choices. God's greatest gift to mankind is our free will. No human being has the right to rob anyone of it.

Sally will find her way for I am confident that the Holy Spirit is leading her. It is not my business to have her convert to Catholicism. I'm not the Holy Spirit.

Sandy – I loved your post all the way down to the next-to-the-last paragraph and was all set to tell you how your sentiments made it possible for me to feel warmly about the faith of my childhood. And I still can say that. But your closing thoughts were a big disappointment – a blow in fact.

It seems like out of nowhere, you said, “Non-believers, don't bother with me. If some members of my own family can't get to me, you surely can't.”

Did I miss something? Have non-believers here been snipping at your heels? Or did you feel the need to make a pre-emptive strike against those aggressive atheists you’ve heard about? I wish you hadn’t done it. It detracts from an otherwise lovely statement of understanding and acceptance. You could have included us non-believers in it by simply not mentioning us.

Daniel itld – your last post is a classic. xoxoxo. I hope a lot of people read it and don’t miss it in a rush to make their own points.

Will it make you happy to see me suffer, Spidey?

Is this the grace of your God?

Bon appetit.

"This temple that is built so well
To separate us from ourselves
Is a power grown beyond control
A Will without a Face

"And watching from outside, I wish
That I could wash my hands of this
But we are locked together here
This bittersweet embrace

...
Oh God I love the world"

Get it?

"It was not my intention to offend you. I have nothing against you as a Pagan."

It was also not our ertwhile columnists's intention to offend *you.*

Considering that the Church couldn't un-f its social agenda with retro-rockets and a truckload of Astroglide, though, I might ask the same consideration on behalf of our dear hostess here.

That's all.

Posted on July 14, 2008 18:48 Paganplace:
"" Anonymous:

BS.""

"Ok, you called BS. BS what? It'sa funny thing, but my mail-order ministerial credential s count for a lot more than the ones I worked for. But they involved an oath, and that oath involves derving those I might personally feel are full of BS in times of need.

In hose times I will sincerely ask someone else's God to go ahead and help this random Pagan take care of one of his own.

Seems only fair, really.

People dying is no time to be getting territorial.

What world do *you* live in?"

****************************

It was not my intention to offend you. I have nothing against you as a Pagan.

I mean, that's kin of my thing about my 'first reconciliation.

You Catholics were willing to believe I had been 'deflied.'

You were also willing to just sit there.

Actually, I was stalling for time.

The cowardice is the same, though.

I mean, seriously, Arminius, how many good nights' sleep did these f's have when they looked me in the face believing they'd just let a priest hey knew was up on charges had done me....

Maybe, they want all this political absilutism cause the sex abuse' thing wasn't a 'scandal,' it was part and parcel of Catholic life, and *everyone knew.*

And I saw your faces. Ye innocent.

"Lord help us all, you are seriously pissed. Calm down, dear Lady, ya got friends. Go salvage a Guinness or something.

Arminius"

Well, what would they like, I actually really *hate* them?

If it were about what anyone deserved, that would be easy.

What if it wasn't, though?

Paganplace,

Lord help us all, you are seriously pissed. Calm down, dear Lady, ya got friends. Go salvage a Guinness or something.

Arminius

Yeah, btw.

Cowards.

As much as you let your Popes blame it on 'queerness,' or whatever absraction.

You sat there.

I saw the shame and cowardice in your eyes.

You thought I'd been violated and you sat there.

Girl as I was.

But blame the gays and vote for Bush and business as usual.

I call BS.

I call... You lookat what you done.

I call...

Reality.

I don't suppose you 'holy' SOBs' have any idea how much you absract demand materially-hurt *real people* do you?

Do you have any idea how much you hurt the people ou ignore, then feel all virtuous for throwing crumbs to?

HOly Mother of Punk, I don't wanna go begging any more.

You stuck0-up SOBs.

Seriously. How much would you like me to beg before you listen to me when I say you're getting played?

How long do you expect me to *last?*

What do you Mother-loving *want* you pantywaists?

YOu Catholics sat there and looked at me and my friends when you thought worse happened than ...happened.

I saw the cowardice in your eyes.

You thought I got raped.

You sat still.

Don't tell me about morality.

Period.

That is the problem with some Christians here; they don't know much about their own bible and actually non-Christians know more about the bible and its history than they do. It is embarrassing.

Even the Catholic encyclopedia aknowledges the not so accidental similiraies between the three synoptic gospel, which is known as the synoptic problem; this what they have to say about it:

"Turning over the pages of an ordinary harmony of the four, or of a synopsis of the first three, Gospels, which show in parallel columns the coincident parts of the evangelical narratives,

the reader will at once notice the large amount of matter which is common to the Gospels of St. Matthew, St. Mark, and St. Luke. Brief as these three sketches of Christ's life actually are, they run parallel to one another in no less than 330-370 verses or about one-third of their whole account of Christ's words and deeds, while, with the exception of a few incidents (68 verses), the whole contents of St. Mark are practically found in St. Matthew and in St. Luke. This agreement in the facts related appears all the more striking, because of the great amount of historical material which must have been at the disposal of each Synoptical writer.

In constructing their several records, the Synoptists adopt the same general method of presentation, giving not a consecutive narrative that would result from a fusing of the material employed, but a series of little accounts which are isolated by peculiar introductory and concluding formulæ, and which repeatedly agree in details and in order even where a deviation from the chronological sequence is manifest.

Together with all these resemblances, there is throughout the Synoptics a remarkable agreement in words and phrases, which can be more particularly realized by means of a Greek harmony or a close translation of the original text.

This verbal agreement in the Greek Gospels is all the more surprising, as Jesus spoke in Aramaic, and as in most cases, it is plain that the verbal resemblances cannot be referred to an accidental similarity, since they are due to the common use of very peculiar terms and expressions, of identical variations from either the Hebrew or the Septuagint in quotations from the Old Testament.

These resemblances and differences, the extent and complexity of which grow upon the student who compares carefully the Synoptic Gospels and contrasts them with St. John's narrative, constitute a unique phenomenon in ancient and modern literature. They are facts which no one can refer either to mere chance, or to the direct influence of inspiration. On the one hand, the resemblances are too numerous and too striking to be regarded as explicable on the hypothesis that the first three Evangelists wrote independently of one another. On the other, the differences are at times so significant as to imply that they are due to the use of different documents by the Evangelists, as for example in the case of the two genealogies of Jesus Christ. The harmony and the variety, the resemblances and the differences must be both accounted for. They form together a literary problem, -- the Synoptic Problem."

Wow, I feel like I've been in a small tornado, just reading the original column and then the responses. Surely the responses on the nastier side would have been somewhat more civil had they been delivered in person. Or am I naive?

But back to the original point. Let me state my credentials, so to speak. I am female, I am 50, I am Catholic. I converted 30 years ago of my own free choice, and with some mild objections from my family - and very mild, really, because they did encourage me to find my own way. (We were raised nominally, vaguely Protestant.) I received good basic instruction in the Catholic faith back then but over the last 15 - 20 years have pursued deeper knowledge through reading and through formal classes. I taught catechism to 2nd - 5th graders for a number of years. And I still have so much to learn!

A few weeks ago I attended a Mass that was being celebrated by a newly ordained priest. He was rather unique in that he was formerly, I believe, a Presbytarian minister who converted to the Episcopal Church, became a minister (priest) there, then a number of years later converted to Catholicism. He is married by the way. Under certain circumstances such a person can be ordained a priest in the Roman Catholic church, but cannot rise to bishop, etc. So, back to the Mass. At Communion a little boy, perhaps three or so, trailing behind his daddy put his hands out in front of the priest as he saw everyone else do, and did it with great confidence. Three is much too young...seven is the normal age, but First Communion has been granted for the prepared child at a slightly younger age. What happened? The priest gave him Communion. Was he wrong? Well, probably not wrong, he misjudged, I would say. Maybe he can't tell a husky three-year-old from a six-year-old. Maybe the dad should have been supervising more carefully, but I don't know what was going on in his head and heart. Or that of the priest, of course. I don't think anyone -certainly not the child - willfully disobeyed or disrespected the beliefs of our faith. (I'm fairly certain that at least one of the nuns in attendance gave gentle guidance to the new priest, but no one came rushing up to the altar to intervene!)

So Sally, I might put you in the shoes of that little child. Yeah, maybe you should have known better - sophisticated, intelligent journalist that you are. But in matters of faith and religion you are still on your tricycle, you haven't graduated up to the bike with training wheels yet (not many of us have). And as for Cardinal McCarrick or whoever might have offered you the Eucharist, don't assume that because you are famous that you are known not to be Christian or Catholic to that person...some people don't pay attention to the celebrity world, some people don't read the Post regularly or at all.

I take my faith very, very seriously. I love my faith, it feeds and sustains me. I believe in the True Presence, and hope that Jesus resides in me, and I in Him. I take real abuses and disrespect very seriously. The people who know, and yet do it anyway, they are held to a higher degree of responsibility. I'm just not feeling it here. I am certain that much has been learned, I hope positively.

I am reminded that the best statement, the best defense at times, one can make with one's faith is to try to truly live that faith, not shout it in someone's face or bash them over the head with it.

Sally, I am praying that you get that bike with the training wheels real soon, and I am sure whatever road you travel down Tim Russert and many with him will be helping guide you and strengthen you for a great, shiny grown-up bike of your choosing.

Non-believers, don't bother with me. If some members of my own family can't get to me, you surely can't. I respect your rights, and peace be with you.

Ever occured to you, 'Truth,' that some folks is just trying to live, and maybe some freaks trying to tirn Tim Russert's dead body into some kind of bloody shirt ain't what those who loved him had in mind?

Ifyou think yer Jesus aint behind that, that's between you and him.

People are tyring to live, here.

Spud.

" Anonymous:

BS."

Ok, you called BS. BS what?

It'sa funny thing, but my mail-order ministerial credential s count for a lot more than the ones I worked for. But they involved an oath, and that oath involves derving those I might personally feel are full of BS in times of need.

In hose times I will sincerely ask someone else's God to go ahead and help this random Pagan take care of one of his own.

Seems only fair, really.

People dying is no time to be getting territorial.

What world do *you* live in?

I think that most of Sally Quinn's Catholic critics on this thread do not seem to grasp the context in which this "incident" occurred.

It was at a funeral. She says Tim Russert was a good friend. I believe her. She had come to his funeral to express mourning for her loss and celebrate his life. She did not come for an ettiquette lesson. The people to whom it was a duty to excercise ettiquette were the Catholic hosts, and not the mourners.

The priest offered her communion and she accepted. That is the beginning and the end of it. As a representative of the church, the priest's actions consitute church approval, by the very definiton of church approval, which no church offical has contradicted. So, it is improper for Catholic lay-people to second guess in a forum such as this, how the priest handled the "incident."

But this is not really about Catholicism; it is about human nature, about sour grapes, and jealousy, and unending and nit picking criticism without moderation, or appropriateness. If you do not like someone for no reason in particular, perhaps they have the wrong religion, perhaps they have the wrong politics, perhaps they look too good or too rich, or whatever, but, never miss an opportunity to pick up the nearest weapon and clobber them over the head with it.

I think this is more the case, that some people just don't like Sally, than that she took communion at her friend's funeral.

Religious confusion certainly reigns here lately.

Rev 12:9 is certainly 'alive and well' (tongue-in-cheek) today in our whole, decieved world.

Take heart, folks..and hang in there...truth will be made known, all will see....and relatively soon.

Mr Mark,

I'll let you handle Anon's latest ramble. You are much better at delivering a crushing blow than I am.

But I was tempted...

Arminius

Yeah, btw. for the same reason monks fast, people are more malleable if you push religion *then* feed them.

Speaking f 'faith-based initiatives.'

BS.

"Paganplace!

"Beautiful song. How the hell anyone could put the label of 'obscenity' on that is beyond me. (Well, Spidey would, but we all know about him.)"

Well, I looked cooler saying it in 1986, but what Reagan did to the media tuened out to be kind of important atfer all.... Let's not forget this band was being banned while pederast priests were getting immunity and any Fundie working as a daa processor was at liberty to make a blip of anyone they thought might be a 'lesbian.'. cf: me being homeless for years with no legal ideantity in a nation that apparently just lacked suficient 'faith' for the electrolyte deficient to be fed in body while being programmed with Calvinism.

"That statement flies in the face of what 95% of Biblical scholars believe."

Last time I checked statement Biblical scholars are not Christians therefore only have "book knowledge" of the Bible and not spiritual knowledge.

Tell your crude friend to grow up, their immaturity is sipping through, big time!

Paganplace!

Beautiful song. How the hell anyone could put the label of 'obscenity' on that is beyond me. (Well, Spidey would, but we all know about him.)

Arminius

Admittedly it counts for metric diddlysquat in my personal word.

But I told you so.

What will you do now?

Anon writes:

"Matthew did not copy from Mark, both writers addressed the same topic only Matthew provided the text more fully."

That statement flies in the face of what 95% of Biblical scholars believe.

Paganplace,

Ease up, take a deep breath. I don't understand some of what you just wrote. You are exhausting me again....

Irish music - two of the songs on the disk are Christian. Well, the Irish have been Christian for a while. I would love to hear real Pagan music, by the way.

Who is anal, by the way? I could not follow....

Arminius

BS

And, Arminius, sorry about the ranting. This kind of stuff... really gets to me on some levels. That got all too personal.

Child of the 80's, I guess.

Here's a somg from someone Reagan banned under 'obscenity' laws even thought hey never talked about sex or used any verboten words:

Frankly, I couldn't care if the Church had the Bright Lady on a meathook, but this was the song:

"The roll of distant thunder breaks
The afternoon of silence wakes
They hurry through from Petergate...
As if they know this Dance

In fury blind, I drive at night
Across the moors, the open roads
Beneath the freezing starry skies
Racing in some trance...

These cities are illusions
Of some triumph over Nature's laws
We see the iron carcass rust
And buildings tumble into dust
And as the waters rise it seems
We cling to all the rootless things
The Christian lies, technology

While spirits scream and sing ...
Oh God I love the world

Well I never said I was a clever man
But I know enough to understand
That the endless leaps and forward plans
Will someday have to cease
You blind yourselves with comfort lies
Like lightning never strikes you twice
And we laugh at your amazed surprise
As the Ark begins to sink

This temple that is built so well
To separate us from ourselves
Is a power grown beyond control
A Will without a Face

And watching from outside, I wish
That I could wash my hands of this
But we are locked together here
This bittersweet embrace

...
Oh God I love the world

And if one day the final fire
Explodes across the whitened sky
I know you said you rather die
And make it over fast
With courage from your craven friends
Waiting outside for the end
With no bitterness,
but an innocence
That I can't seem to grasp
I know somehow I will survive
This fury just to stay alive
So drunk with sickness, weak with pain
I can walk the hills one last time

Scarred and smiling, dying slow
I'll scream to no one left at all
I told you so I told you so I told you so ...
Oh God I love the world

================================================

-New Model Army

Anonyous, "I am quoting Mark and you are quoting Matthew. They are both talking about the same episode but as absurd as it may seem they are different. Matthew was copying from Mark and he felt the need to add an exception and that's how you have a loophole. Pay attention."

Excuse me?? Pay attention?? Matthew did not copy from Mark, both writers addressed the same topic only Matthew provided the text more fully.

If you study ad nauseam you will find there is more to the text regarding divorce in Matthew then you give credence too.

The response from religionists of all stripes to this communion "issue" proves once again that the Xian sects are a religious belief separated by a common saviour.

Interesting how the DISTRUST and outright HATRED of other Xian sects by those Xians not belonging to said sects is quite evident, putting the lie to the "men of good will" moniker that Xians love to attach to themselves.

Is it any wonder that the rationalists/atheists scoff at all of their pretensions and all of their woo-woo beliefs? I think not.

Perhaps the Xians should take this opportunity to reflect on the high dungeon they are held in by their fellow Xians from sects different than their own. Perhaps in so doing they'll understand why most of the civilized world is finally abandoning their childish belief systems, belief systems that have for too long promoted inequality, racism and sexism as a type of warped and sick "morality" to its adherents.

Looks like the ecumenical movement is not much more than an empty shell these days. Let's hope religion in general isn't too far behind, consumed by its own elitism, inhumanity and abject stupidity.

The Wafer Wars. Who woulda thunk?

And that bothers me, anyway, speaking of 'Faith-based intitiatives,' it seems I remember a whole lot of people trying to make me oathsworn to fill my stomach along the way, then claiming they're better than government in overcoming poverty.

Anyway, as far as *my* aforementioned funeral is concerned. If you Christians would like to have no non-Catholicism desecrate the funeral Mass my Ma doubtless needs in order to not think Heaven is the definition of Hell without her kid in it....

*You* deal with your quirks.

I've been a lifelong Pagan for twenty years, as far as their records could know (Before then I needed no more complications) But they *still* claim me as a Catholic, even if that aparently disqualifies me as a Pagan from begging for help on behalf of Cathioic single mothers.

I mean, what's a girl gotta do to get excommunicated, anyway?

Gods.

I still submit you're getting anal about an awful lot of things if you won't actually let the likes of *me* go.

Bon appetit.

" Walter L. Taylor:

""I am a Presbyterian minister, and thus take very seriously any sort of Christian religious practice. I have my disagreements with the Roman Catholic Church over a number of issues. Having said that, I nonetheless respect the Roman Catholic Church, and do not believe that I have the right to barge in on those acts of worship which that church says I may not. I ask for the same respect myself when it comes to my own worship practices."

Great. Next time you get wind of a Pagan wrship service, kidly leave behind the sticks and bullhorns. Thanks.

"i, Paganplace!

"Yes, I have missed our conversations too.
This matter of myth vs spiritual apparently needs some discussion. To me, a myth is at worst, an interesting story (see Adam and Eve), but at best, a doorway into the spiritual realm (see the first creation story)."

I'm kind of noticing it's those who refuse to se the difference being the real bastards about it, these past fifteen hundred years.

"Hey, I'm Irish too, and right now I'm listening to Irish music! REAL stuff, too, 'Women of Song', singing in Gaelic and English, spooky stuff."

I dunno, a lotta stuff these days is being sold as Irish and it's just 'Christian music' with ocasional grace notes from Uileann pipes.

as a Gael, I'd keep in mind, everything they did to the Native Americans, they practiced on *us.*

I am a Presbyterian minister, and thus take very seriously any sort of Christian religious practice. I have my disagreements with the Roman Catholic Church over a number of issues. Having said that, I nonetheless respect the Roman Catholic Church, and do not believe that I have the right to barge in on those acts of worship which that church says I may not. I ask for the same respect myself when it comes to my own worship practices.

Having said that, Ms. Quinn, whether she meant it or not (and I take her word that she did not), showed great disrespect for the Roman Catholic Church when she received communion at Mr. Russert's funeral.

For one thing, the Eucharist celebrated at Mr. Russert's funeral was not about him. It was not some sort of personlized religious ritual in his honor. That is not the point of the Eucharist in any Christian tradition.

One of my brothers recently lost his wife to a sudden, tragic death. Because my brother and his wife are Roman Catholic, there was a funeral mass. I did not go forward to receive communion (a strange experience for me, as I usually am the one administering communion), out of respect for the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, and out of respect for the religious tradition of my sister-in-law. That simply is not my "right."

When it comes to the way post-moderns treat religion (especially those of the Christian variety), more respect should be shown.

Hi, Paganplace!

Yes, I have missed our conversations too.

This matter of myth vs spiritual apparently needs some discussion. To me, a myth is at worst, an interesting story (see Adam and Eve), but at best, a doorway into the spiritual realm (see the first creation story).

Hey, I'm Irish too, and right now I'm listening to Irish music! REAL stuff, too, 'Women of Song', singing in Gaelic and English, spooky stuff.

Arminius

Maybe you'll like this story, though, There was a great king in Ireland named Conchubhair. ...known for wise and fierce and not issuing no-bid contracts and declaring 'Mission accomplished' among our people.

He was a gread ard-ri among the ancient Irish, who in battle took a slingstone upside the head, and into. The Druids, not being brain surgeons, said, 'Probably best we don't agitate you, or cephalic pressures'll go all to pot...

According to Christian Irish legend, at least, some missionary came along (probably actually way before 1 CE) and said how Jesus got treated.

King Conchubair got so pissed off about it he stormed around the hall and blew the slingstone right out his head and died.

This did not help anybody.

Hi, Arminius! I've missed our conversations. :)

"But to say it is in 'mythic space' is, IMHO, not accurate. It is in spiritual space."

See, my point there was that Christians can't see those to be the same thing. Hence many squabbles.

In the minds of those who believe that their 'myth' needs to be 'literally true' to preserve various authorities and exclusions and conflicts and agendas, 'Myth' is a dirty word.

You can't own a myth.

And that seems to be the problem for many. Who don't get what the Mythtree is about.

The continuing problem here is the what did the historic Jesus really say and do.

Did he establish the Catholic Church via Gos. Thom. 13; (2a) Mark 8:27-30 = Matt 16:13-20 = Luke 9:18-21; (2b) Gos. Naz. 14; (2c) John 6:67-69.)

According to many contemporary historic Jesus and NT exegetes (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Frederiksen- members of the On Faith Panel), he did not since these passages fail to meet historic requirements of attestations and stratums.

Did he establish the sacrament of the Eucharist?

(1a) 1 Cor 10:14-22
(1b) 1 Cor 11:23-25
(2) Mark 14:22-25 = Matt 26:26-29 = Luke 22:15-19a[19b-20]
(3) Did. 9:1-4
(4) John 6:51b-58

Again, according to many contemporary historic Jesus and NT exegetes (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredericksen- members of the On Faith Panel), he did not since these passages fail to meet historic requirements of attestations and stratums.

A good summary of the last days of Jesus' life:

From Professors Crossan and Watts' book, Who is Jesus.

"That Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, as the Creed states, is as certain as anything historical can ever be.

“ The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened.
WaPo blog blocked this paragraph for some reason “While the brute fact that of Jesus' death by crucifixion is historically certain, however, those detailed narratives in our present gospels are much more problematic. "

“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety.

I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."

Hi, Paganplace,

OK, I'll deal.... regarding Communion, better known as the Holy Eucharist. A bit of a correction here. There is metaphor there, of course. And also mystery. But to say it is in 'mythic space' is, IMHO, not accurate. It is in spiritual space. As the final prayer of the ceremony says, in part:
"...you have fed us with spiritual food in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood. Send us now into the world in peace..."

Big difference between spiritual and mythical, I dare to think.

Arminius

" i guess even she became aware of how irreverent and disrespectful a motvie that was-"

No, I think she became aware how much her actions offended some people. Her motives were of the exact opposite of disrespect.

In Catholic belief, at least as taught by an elder of mine eho was Catholic clergy and would have had some kind of clergy of *me* it's not a Christian human's place to go speaking to people's motives.

Never mind invent some deep dark motives to justify bringing 'war' into that God's house.

You know, what all this gives me cause to wonder about, is if it's so darn important to Catholics what church someone's a part of, why not make some accommodation for events bound to have a lot of mixed Christian company, anyway? I've helped write and perform a number of Pagan weddings, a lot of which were especially designed to retain their meaning while not ambushing cowan guests with stuff that would make them feel *they* were praying to Names of 'badness.'

Weddings are for joy, funerals are for grief and another kind of celebration: both are about *coming together.* Placing other matters ahead of this does little honor to the occasion.

I mean, I feel awkward enough sitting in a pew for weddings or funerals as it is, myself, and I'm still pretty familiar with the etiquette. (No, I wouldn't go up for Communion. I don't expect.)

I can't help but think that it's likely I'll be buried in a Catholic ceremony, myself, if I don't outlive my mother. She needs it. My Pagan friends and loves aren't afraid in that way. What sits uncomfortably is that it'll all be about the familiar lie about people becoming 'good Catholics' post mortem, anyway. Who I am will probably not put in an appearance. But they'll say a Mass dedicated to the notion that the real me would burn in their Hell. And maybe when the moment comes, not believe it.

In today's world, where people actually *mix* between denominations, it seems a funeral is not the time to force people to deal with divisive things.

But you're darn right people will confuse the decedant with Jesus in those ceremonies. That's kind of the point, and Gods know that's how it happens for some in life.

Fact is, the very most of *Catholics* don't believe the 'Host' turns into a bloody gobbet of Savior... it's not a *metaphor* to them, though, it's in *mythic* space. By making 'myth' a dirty word, people are taught to think that something is either literally-true-as-written or a 'metaphor.'

But it's supposed to be 'Myth,' in that good sense we Pagans deal with all the time... And Mystery, as your deacon might chant (In that case I think it's become just a disconnect and psychological double-bind to make people respoond as they do, but everyone, most especially me, is a critic. :) )

Point there is that people set up an all or nothing sort of 'binary,' 'The Bible is Literally True Or The Bible (or someone's spin thereon) Is Literally False.'

Authoritarians, Protestant and Catholic both, find the notion of 'Literal Truth' too useful a tool to really admit there's a 'Mystery' thing there. The Catholic compromise is to obey and figure that greater 'faith' (aka trying harder to believe') would put some clothes on that Emperor,

But I think it's missing the point. As critical of the Church as I obviously am, this Communion thing *is* a sacred thing that's supposed to *mean* something. As a Mystery. Not as a source of literalistic *authority.*

Your Jesus was called a Christ cause he was embodying things from the Eleusinian Mysteries, ...very similar, in many ways, right down to the Greek sorta-John Barleycorn type guy interesingly-named Iasu. Just part of the historical pattern of appropriating the local culture (And in this case, a lot of Aristotle) to impose certain ideas that don't really fit so well on real and breathing people.

The reason the Sanhedrin gave early Christians such a hard time, was likely cause (hypocritically, given how much of Moses' story is cribbed from Isis and Osiris, who just *happened* to live where the Jews were at the time, ) when the nexus of the Jesus cult went to Greece, it was seen in terms of the Greek cultural contexts and conflicts of the time. (Including some between 'faith and reason' and about the 'disposition of sacrifices.')

As Mark Twain said, 'History may not repeat itself, but it certainly does rhyme.'

Things have gotten so even Catholics are making their demands on people based on the 'literalism' of a book that was literally designed by committee.

Personally, I have no need of your ceremonies, and strongly believe that other people's ways should be respected, for whatever reason.

But I do think this argument is missing the point.

You believe that Host is *so* powerful, but only if you claim you can make yourself believe something someone tells you.

Personally, I think that makes it more of a spiritual cargo cult than the Mystery it's supposed to be, and it wouldn't be such a big hairy deal if people weren't attached to certain words in the first place, but....

But that's for you to decide, isn't it?

We Pagans get by fine on the notion that while our practices may be for anyone, they are not For Everyone (Or Else.).

Maybe...

It's not about the words or personalities.

Can you deal?

sorry bgone that was me-

BGONE asked-
"Did you feel anything, chill or good warm feeling, anything that signaled to you the communion bread was more than just bread?"

"I had only taken communion once in my life, at an evangelical church. It was soon after I had started "On Faith" and I wanted to see what it was like. Oddly I had a slightly nauseated sensation after I took it, knowing that in some way it represented the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Last Wednesday I was determined to take it for Tim, transubstantiation notwithstanding. I'm so glad I did. It made me feel closer to him."
(june article on tim russert)
she actually repeated this in this rticle-
but left out the line
"I wanted to see what it was like."

i guess even she became aware of how irreverent and disrespectful a motvie that was-

instead of an act of contrition to a priest- at some point- a little personal repsonsibility and at least a nod and acknowledgement to catholics would seem to be forthcoming-
let alone an apology-

but apparently her energies are all focused on how she appears to thers, as opposed to how she actually is-

I have a couple of questions you failed to answer in the essay. Please don't take this as criticism.

Do you believe the dead person, Tim Russert has any knowledge of what you did in his honor? Is Tim Russert dead, alive but transformed into another state, (spirit world) or alive and well in another world similar to this world? Are there other possibilities in your opinion? If you were voting on it how would you vote?

Did you feel anything, chill or good warm feeling, anything that signaled to you the communion bread was more than just bread? Some evangelicals get feeling so strong they actually pass out when the minister puts his hands on them and calls Jesus down from heaven to fill their inner spirits. The communion bread is advertised to be the body of Jesus by the church. Did you feel anything like the evangelicals feel and presumably Catholics somewhat feel? Did you almost, (I presume you didn't) pass out?

I've researched this a little. It turns out that according to the theory all you did was commit a mortal, (deadly) sin. To fix that you need to see a priest, admit you did it and he will surely absolve you from that sin. Otherwise, according to the theory you're in for a log stay, forever even with the angel that would be God Lucifer. Other research shows that Lucifer was the father of Jesus so I think you might be caught in one of those, damned if you do and damned if you don't traps.

To Mike M and all the others offended by Sally's behavior -

What about all those practicing Catholics walking up to the communion rail with Sally? Wouldn't it have been kind of them to spare her all this embarrassment by quietly taking her aside and explaining that she should not take communion and instead should cross her arms over her chest? Certainly practicing catholics have more of a responsibility to know the rules than Sally does and certainly many there knew she was not a Catholic.

I'm sorry, but so many of these posts, including yours, are not about defending the faith, they're about Sally-bashing.

I can see it, Daniel itld and a few others can see it. Can you?

Sally,

You disrespected another's beliefs, Sally. I think you should have tolerated and respected the faith of your friend. I think you could have shown respect and love simply by your presence and prayers. What you did was for you, and your action was in bad form.

A former Catholic and current (post-liberal centrist) United Methodist.

Mike M. in Colorado

I agree with what E Favorite has said about many of the Catholics that post here. Most of the Catholics that I meet in my personal life are friendly in an ordinary and normal way. And I have had more than one Catholic friend reply to me in a religious discussion, that "they don't know anything about religion except the catechism," which they explain to me, are some things that they memorized as children.

I am not anti-Catholic, either personally, nor institutionally. If I did not like Catholics, then why would I be friends with them and go with them to church? And I am not against the Catholic Church. I realize it is an immense, immovable thing, like a mountain range, that cannot be moved or influenced by my mere notice.

I have posted here mainly to defend Sally Quinn against unjust criticism. Picking on a non-Catholic person for making mis-steps at a Catholic funeral is hard-hearted and harsh. People say, she should have known better.

How?

I understand her lack of understanding. I have attended Catholic services, with ZERO instruction about what is going on or what I should do, in a process that seems a little complicated. Just how should people "know" what is the correct thing to do, or not to do?

And besides, wouldn't you give someone a pass at a funeral? And if not, then why not just ban non-Catholics from funerals? Or perhaps, just stop having funerals?

Ryan Haber, paraphrasing some non-catholics: "Those Catholics are so nasty, always wanting to have their own religion their own way."

No Ryan, what I see among many of the Catholics here is that they are just being nasty period. I see them going beyond explaining and defending their faith, to be cruel to Sally Quinn, even to the point of assuring her that her friend Tim Russert would be chastising her from heaven, as if they would know.

That's just plain human hubris and it disgusts me.

Even in the NIV, Mark 10 says:

"When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." (NIV)

I am quoting Mark and you are quoting Matthew. They are both talking about the same episode but as absurd as it may seem they are different. Matthew was copying from Mark and he felt the need to add an exception and that's how you have a loophole. Pay attention.

July 13@10:12, This is the excwption, ""(9) I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."" NIV

You need to study scripture more thoughly; take no offense, please.

I am really disappointed in your explanation.
You write
"A good start would be to study, to learn, to talk to people and to have an open heart and an open mind."

I suppose if this was your first exposure to a faith tradition different from your own, I could accept this-but it seems like you're a bit over the age when we can write it off to youth. Another approach to contrition might be-I was wrong to take communion at Tim Russert's funeral. Since his funeral, I have read (insert several items here) and have come to understand that I have insulted the Catholic Church and Catholics everywhere. By childishly defending my choice to participate in a sacrament that I have no right to, I have caused confusion among my readers. As is the common tradition in celebrity circles, as a concrete expression of my contrition, I donate (insert dollar amount) to the Archdiocese of Washington DC.

Worth a try?

Why the concern?

Baptism does not cleanse the soul since there is not original sin to cleanse i.e. the sinning parents did not exist.

Confirmation- Holy Spirit and his winged representations do not exist- Trinity is another theological mumbo jumbo invented by early theologians who had too much time on their hands.

Eucharist- already put the myth box as being nothing more than low calorie wafers and inexpensive wine.

Holy Orders- All the NT passages supposedly setting up said priesthood have been judged by many NT exegetes as being bogus.

Reconciliation/Confession- All the NT passages supposedly setting up said sacrament have been judged by many NT exegetes as also being bogus.

Last Rites - vitiated by the previous comments about said "sacraments".

Matrimony - only sacrament established by the historical Jesus as per most NT exegetes- easy annulments vitiate most of its importance- e.g. Catholic woman married 18 years to a Catholic man (ex-seminarian). They had seven children. Woman was given an annulment after the husband left with another woman.

According to Mark, the Catholics are right in this reagard; Remarrying is considered adultery no matter what the circumstances are as is clearly obvious from reading the verses found in the gospel according to Mark:

Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?"

"What did Moses command you?" he replied.

They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."

"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered,

"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

As you can see there is no exception.

Divorce is permitted in the Catholic and Christian beliefs on the grounds of adultery. The spouse that has committed adultery and remarries are consider to be living in an a state of adultery thus are committing adultery again. This same person, the one that they marry are also considered to be committing adultery, according to scripture.

The person that has not committed adultery is free to re-marry according to scripture read Matthew 19. God does not hold the “innocent” person responsible for the sins of someone who committed adultery and severed the marriage bond.

Matthew 19:4-8, (4) "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female, (5) and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh (6) So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
(7) Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away? (8) Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
(9) I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." NIV

Thank-you Soja and Mary and Ryan and all the others who have so patiently tried to shed light on this issue.

One thing -- Soja wrote (in response to "Those who marry outside of their faith are not supposed to take Communion...")

"[Soja's] response: Catholics are allowed to marry outside their faith AND receive Communion. As far I know anyone marrying in the Catholic Church is only obliged to raise the children as Catholics. The non-Catholic spouse is not expected to convert."

Church regulations don't even require you to raise the children Catholic anymore -- except maybe if you are married in a Catholic ceremony -- although they do encourage you to do so. The Catholic Church recognizes baptism and matrimony in another church. I know because I was baptised Dutch Reformed and married in the Congregational Church before I became Catholic, and I have not been required to repeat either ceremony. My husband was nominally Catholic to start with and being married to a Protestant would not have stopped him from being eligible for communion. (What stopped him was that he never went to mass in the first place.)

The sticking point is when someone remarries in a different church without receiving an annulment in their previous marriage. Then they can't receive communion because they are technically living in sin with their new spouse -- technically they may even be committing adultery -- because they are still technically married to their ex.

Just to set the record straight.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Just like we are still waiting for Paul's "prophecy" about the "imminent" second coming when we finally will get the facts about the Eucharist, Resurrection, Limbo and Rocks, we are still waiting for your answers to the following poll/survey:

Do you believe in:

1. In "pretty/ugly wingie" thingies?

2. That the long-dead Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words now listed in the koran?

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life?

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7 800 year-old feud between Sunnis and Shiites give significant credence that suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran?

5. That having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of lust and polygamy?

6. And that the condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of anger and greed???????

To wit:

From Hirsi Ali's book, Infidel:

paperback issue, p. 47:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

soja- do you even have any clue who the benedictines are?

i know youre a great devotee of bede griffith's-

and i suspect because he was a benedictine- that is where you get your ideas-

but his ashram in india didnt really replicate the actual mission of benedictines all over the world-

it's NOT a happy time relaxation and retreat-

the difference between benedictines, and say, trappists or domincans- is that theirs is the order of activity and work-

the bede was of a more contemplative nature-

the benedictines are more active involvement and basically- WORK-

also their prayer schedule is pretty rigid- they recite all of the prayers of opus dei every day- that alone is VERY catholic and requires several hours-

when people visit a benedictine monsatery- they also are required to work with their hands in the afternoon-

(also, there are 73 different "rules" each at least a page long)

did you even read what you linked?

i imagine the laid back relaxing atmosphere of bede griffith's retreat, a blend of hindu meditation and catholicism-
would be more to sally's liking-

i think that is what you were imagining-

Soja, Soja, Soja,

Catholics and Christians also once had faith that the Earth was the Center of the Universe, that the Earth was flat, and that St. Christopher was really a saint.

Science, history, and rational thinking changes "faith". The Eucharist is nothing more than a low calorie, sometimes stale wafer and/or inexpensive, sometimes sour wine.

Link to an online version of The Holy Rule of St Benedict:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/benedict/rule.i.html?highlight=the,holy,rule,of,st,benedict#highlight

Dear Sally

May I chime in? If you are really interested in Catholicism, seek out a deeply prayerful monk and spiritual director from the Benedictine monastery in Washington DC. You could spend regular quiet time away from the hustle and bustle and get to know Catholicism from one of its most beautiful aspects. Benedictine monasteries are credited with guarding European learning and culture in politically troubled times. They have a marvelous Christ centered spirituality and a history that will leave you filled with awe. Read the rules of Benedict for some information about their spirituality. You don't have to convert to Catholicism at all. You could simply enjoy the beauty of a deeply spiritual experience in a truly Catholic atmosphere away from the madding crowd.

However I'm sure the Holy Spirit will lead you as He sees fit.

Best wishes
Soja

CCNL

I'm sure you are no longer the young handsome man you once were. But your wife loves you just the same as she did on your wedding day, doesn't she? She looks at you with the eyes of love and faith and finds you handsome, and loves you still. Isn't that a wonderful thing?

It is faith, and faith alone, that gives meaning to a piece of " stale wafer and inexpensive sour wine."

Ms. Quinn, if you are sincerely interested in learning the Catholic religion, as you say you are, you have to do more than chat with people and look at the back of programs at funeral services, as someone must have told you by now.
The absolute minimum effort is mastering the Catechism of the Catholic Church, particularly for someone who is engaging in a public "search" for knowledge and who is leading a "faith" forum at a serious newspaper.
Have you ever read the Catechism?
What bothers me about your several postings on this Tim Russert funeral matter is the startled lack of comprehension on your part of how inappropriate it is for someone who evidentally knows so little about the tenets of a religion to be commenting on it at all - let alone actually participating in the deepest mystery and central act of that Church.

And in conclusion, it is nothing more than a low calorie sometimes stale wafer and inexpensive sometimes sour wine!!!!

Dear Sally

I'm a simple lay person with no real knowledge of Catholic doctrines concerning who may or may not receive Communion in the Catholic Church. Let me try to add my two cents to clarify your genuine confusion with my lay Catholic commonsense anyway.

You wrote: " I did know that there has been much debate and controversy in the Catholic church about who may or may not take Communion."

My response: There could be no dispute about whether an atheist/agnostic may receive Communion, since Communion is a Christian-Catholic Sacrament.

You wrote: "Some Catholic Pro-Choice candidates have been refused Communion because of their political positions, and yet Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Chris Dodd and Nancy Pelosi all took Communion when Pope Benedict was here this spring."

My response: They are all Catholics. I don't know that a political "position" constitutes a mortal sin.

You wrote: "Those who marry outside of their faith are not supposed to take Communion..."

My response: Catholics are allowed to marry outside their faith AND receive Communion. As far I know anyone marrying in the Catholic Church is only obliged to raise the children as Catholics. The non-Catholic spouse is not expected to convert.

You wrote "... but Rudy Giuliani did, despite the criticism."

The Catholic Church does not allow divorce, so maybe a remarried divorcee may be denied Communion.

You wrote: "Non-Catholics are not supposed to take Communion at a Catholic mass, according to Catholic teachings. Yet Pope John Paul II gave Holy Communion to British Prime Minister Tony Blair in 2004, before he converted from Anglicanism to Catholicism. In Johannesburg, South Africa, President Bill Clinton, a Protestant, received the Holy Eucharist at Queen of the World Church. And Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger gave communion to a minister of the Swiss Reformed Church at Pope John Paul II’s funeral."

My response: All of the above mentioned persons are deeply religious Christians.

Folks,
Spiderman writes this bit of silliness:

"It is thru that stupid ritual that Catholicism was able to fool much of the world and led them to believe that the power is in the BISCUIT and NOT in the word of God, the BIBLE. Keeping them from having the Bible would SEAL their authority over the ignorant people. It is no wonder then that for many centuries, the Bible was inaccessible to the people."

Well, why didn't the protestants just correct them? Oh, that is right: the protestants did not exist until the 16th Century. But, but, but...that means that Protestantism wasn't founded by Christ, Who founded His Church in the First Century; Catholicism was. So, if the Church founded by Christ tells me that the Eucharist is important, I can either believe Christ's Church or some guy calling himself Spiderman. Let's see: Christ's Church or Spiderman? Christ's Church? Spiderman? Hmmm...Christ's Church!!

And Arminius is a Gentleman, in every sense. :-)

Goodnight, Ryan, and remember:

"Beer is God's way of saying He loves us and wants us to be happy." Ben Franklin

Ryan Haber,

Beer at the office? If it's after 5 pm, then what is the problem? 24 cans of beer in a case, 24 hours in a day - it CAN'T be a coincidence!!!

All kidding aside - Wiccan is a Lady, note the capital 'L'.

Good night, and God bless.

Beer? Why am I still at the office?! What the $#%@!

Yes, Ms. Quinn's initial actions aren't entirely incomprehensible, not at all. In fact, in many parishes nothing is said, the advertisement by the bishops about receiving communion is very sensitive and usually very far in the back of the pew-missals. It would be better to put them at front, or at the part of the missal describing Communion. Seems like a no-brainer. Someone mocked about posting signs, but a nicely worded sign isn't a half-bad idea. Since most visitors are guests of somebody specific, it is incumbant upon the host to say something - but that is very hard to do, takes some sensitivity to do sensitively, and can be awkward. Maybe our priests should give us more guidance on the matter of HOW to say such things - not that it is easier for them. They're only human.

People going up to Communion, rail or otherwise, with their arms folded to receive a blessing is becoming a more universal way to avoid causing a traffic jam in the pews. It also has the upshot of making it easier for Catholic indisposed by sin to avoid public embarrassment.

Of course, I've had to warm the bench at Communion time myself more times than I care to admit - it's been good to chasten my enormous ego.

"Well, Lord. Here I sit, again. I screwed up, but please give me the grace at least not to compound the error by going up like I hadn't screwed up. Amen."

Vicky,

Please read a few of the posts if you actually want to contribute something useful to the public forum; we've been over it before several times at this point. I LOVE being closeminded. Of course, I cannot for my life see what being closeminded has to do with having rules. Everyone has rules, everyplace has rules too. Is everything closeminded therefore? That seems like a rather pessimistic thing to say, that having rules is closeminded.

I do, Ms. Willard, appreciate you at least using your name; either a name or a stable alias will do to break down anonymity and a certain "ring and run" mentality. Thank you for it.

Arminius, Wiccan, backatchya - you seem like nice gents (Wiccan, you might actually be a nice gal - I don't know your sex). I would like that beer sometime. Y'all in the DC Metro?

We can talk about spiderwebs. But for now, I think I am gonna get the heck out of dodge... er, my office. G'night.

Wiccan,

My take on this is to go to the rail, in a Catholic mass, if you are so moved to do so. But cross your arms, right over left, and you will receive a blessing. This action on your part is in respect to the rules of hospitality. Talk to a Muslim sometime about hospitality, it is sacred. It was, and I think still is, also among Pagan folk.

Arminius

Arminius: "I have never been to a Catholic mass, but would never dream of coming to the rail, unless I crossed my arms over my chest."

Now that raises a question for me. Years ago a friend and coworker died of cancer. He was very dear to me, and quite plainly the most decent man I have ever met. His funeral was the first Mass I attended, and it was beautiful. I did my best to be respectful, and knew better than to join my friends when they went up to receive the Host. Now I wonder if it would have been appropriate to join them if I had crossed my arms over my chest? This is why I feel some little sympathy for Ms. Quinn; my heart wanted to join them but I couldn't see how to and still show respect. I thought it best to stay in my pew.

The Episcopal Church invites everyone one who is a baptized Christian to receive Holy Communion. I don't kow why the Roman Catholics are so closed minded. Jesus welcomed all who believed; why don't they?

Ryan Haber,

Oh, yes, as to the subject of this thread, long forgotten....

Although I do believe in an open communion, that the Lord's table is welcoming to everyone, I respect the Roman Catholic restrictions. I have never been to a Catholic mass, but would never dream of coming to the rail, unless I crossed my arms over my chest.

Arminius

Yes indeed!! I'll drink to that! ;-)

Ryan Haber,

You Roman Catholics have the right to what you believe. I stand to protect the rights of religion, and the rights to not believe.

You, Ryan, are a very good man.

God bless

Wiccan!

You will know it is heaven when someone thrusts a big glass of Guinness in your hand, followed by a shot of Bushmill's for the other hand! YES!!!

Ryan-

A very courteous reply. I can understand where you're coming from. When CCNL posts something about Paganism, I usually rest my head in my hands and say "You can read the words but you just don't get it!"

Arminius, when we get to the top there had better be Bushmill's there! (Else how will I know it's Heaven?)

Or maybe I'm more tired.

It's not a virtue to sit impassively either. I've only the energy to argue about so many things at once. For now the topic is whether we Catholics (and others, for that matter) have a right to our own things, or whether the whole world gets to dictate to us about what we do as a community.

You're a good man, Arminius.

Ryan Haber,

Well, we differ with Spidey. It is difficult to offend me, but it does happen. Spidey offended me to the core with his sick words about the Holy Eucharist. I cannot, cannot respect anything he says. Anything. He is altogether bad, maybe evil. Definitely sick.

This comes from an extremely liberal Christian. Spidey awoke the Furor Celticus of my ancestors. I know, Ryan, I know, it is not Christian to feel this way. But the anger remains.

I guess you have more compassion than I do.

God bless,

Arminius

One of my favorite quotes on the matter is Flannery O'Connor's. At a dinner party, discussion shifted to the topic at hand. Several of the party were unobservant Catholics, the hostess among them. The hostess spoke about how she had believed in transubstantiation as a youth, but had come to see the Eucharist as a beautiful symbol of Christ's love. At that point, somebody noted that O'Connor had remained quiet and asked for her opinion. Ever the lady, she finished her bite, wiped her mouth, and when all eyes were on her, she said,

"If the Eucharist is just a symbol, then to hell with it,"

and she stood up and took her leave of the party.

I couldn't agree more.

Victoria,

Thanks for the quote. It makes my point, and I liked your question to Prof. Stevens-Arroyo, as to whether he believes his own words, or just believes that nobody else can or has read St. Thomas.

Arminius,

As for Spidey, I am too tired to argue with him about the biscuit. It does interest me that he takes all of the Bible literally except for Jn 6, 1 Cor 11:23ff (and the other institution narratives), and Jn 15.

But I can respect his attitude, in any event. At least he is willing to let us keep our biscuit without wanting to eat it, too! Lolol.

Spidey,

You are a blasphemer, you have no place here until you repent, and persuade us that you have repented.

But you won't, you are too sick.

Wiccan, Well Met Indeed!

Yup, we all gotta get to that top. We will all be pleasantly surprised, I am sure.

Spidey is a case unto himself. In 65 years of life, he is the only person I have accused of blasphemy because of what he said about the Holy Eucharist. He is twisted beyond hope from us, and needs professional help. Deprogramming, actually.

Meet ya at the top!

Arminius

It is thru that stupid ritual that Catholicism was able to fool much of the world and led them to believe that the power is in the BISCUIT and NOT in the word of God, the BIBLE. Keeping them from having the Bible would SEAL their authority over the ignorant people. It is no wonder then that for many centuries, the Bible was inaccessible to the people.

Ignorance by the people of the Bible was the reason why Catholicism was able to act like LITTLE GODS themselves, making RULES and DOGMAS saying that these rules are from God. They can easily DUPE any person once that person believes that there is power in that biscuit when there is really NONE. They have TRANSFORMED the metaphor of Jesus to be an INSTRUMENT to PROPAGATE IGNORANCE.

***

It's not the intention of God or Jesus Christ that people will worship biscuits or treat them as holy. As you know, Christ always speaks in metaphor.

The Bread of Life is always and has always been the Word of God, the Bible.

It's very funny that Catholicism ban the distribution of the Bible in it's long history but worship the biscuit.

Ms. Quinn taking the communion (it's not holy) is like a lost person wanting to take part to a mad ritual and the mad people getting angry because somebody who's not totally mad is taking it.

Let the madness continue, the more you eat the biscuit, the more holy you think you are.

NOBODY GOES TO HEAVEN BECAUSE OF EATING BISCUITS.

Just open the Bible and be filled with it, the true bread of God.

STUPIDITY, STUPIDITY, STUPIDITY. When will stupidity be out of religion?

A qoute from Jose Rizal:

"Oh what blindness!! What Lack Of Undersatnding!!"

" Consider well that kind of religion that they are teaching you. See whether it is the will of the God or according to the teachings of Christ that the poor be succored and those who suffer alleviated. Consider what they are preaching to you, the object of the sermon, what is behind the masses, novenas, rosaries, scapularies, images, miracles, candles, belts, etc., etc.; which they daily keep before your minds; ears and eyes; jostling, shouting, and coaxing, INVESTIGATE whence they came and WHETHER THEY GO and then compare that religion with the pure religion of Christ and SEE whether the PRETENDED OBSERVANCE of the life of Christ does not remind of the fat milk cow or the fattened pig, which is encouraged to grow fat not through love of the animal, but for grossly mercenary motives. "

Wiccan,

Thank you. It is hard to say, but I'll certainly give benefit of the doubt - Terra was trying to relate. At some point, maybe she or I lost track of that and began to equate. Whatever, she meant no harm and gave no offense.

My nerves are rubbed raw because for the life of me I cannot understand people's rush to receive, or defend the reception of the Eucharist, by people who reject what it is. I cannot understand why people rail against us for being exclusive for having something for ourselves (if it were even that petty) - as if the whole world were an amusement park for them.

I had the opportunity, while travelling once to visit an indigenous religious feast. It was syncretized a bit, and at some points the Christianity faded into the indigenous, and at other points the indigenous fades into, or is cloaked in, the Christian. It was fascinating. They didn't mind my presence. They only insisted that no photographs be taken.

"But I like taking pictures! They help me remember?!"

Who would think such a complaint was mature, or even rational? It's their ritual, and they've a right to let visitors in on whatever terms they choose.

When it comes to the Catholic Eucharist, that is exactly the sort of nonsense heard. A couple columnists On Faith had the maturity to say either, "Hey, let them do their thing. It doesn't harm you at all, especially if you are right and the Eucharist is just a symbol to them," or "Well, there's an interesting historical development here, but really, here-and-now, it's their thing."

Most have been surprisingly callous - they would never respond so to the indigenous ceremony I witnessed.

"It's not just YOURS! I want it, and you can't stop me, and it's might right to get in if I want to. So there!"

It's just amazing.

Thank you for your sympathy. My description of the Eucharist, and the Mass, and their meaning, might have been more eloquent, but it was off the cuff, while at work on a Saturday, running from one test to the next, dropping the description and picking it up again, with nerves, as you said, rubbed raw. It has motivated me, when I am rested, to take the same idea and make something better of it.

I'm tired of the whole discussion, but unwilling, while I still breathe, to let the last word be, "Those Catholics are so nasty, always wanting to have their own religion their own way. I don't like how they won't even let me do their thing with them the way I want. They're mean!" Of course, phrased that way, it sounds juvenile. But worded the way some of the commentators, many of whom are very eloquent, have phrase it, it is a veritable invitation for others to join in likewise. It was just a couple years ago that some nut did something of the kind, and brought the sacred host from a Papal Mass home, and then tried to sell it on E-Bay.

That's why we take this whole thing very seriously.

Thanks for understanding. God bless.

Hi, Arminius!

Many paths indeed, and it's not til you get to the top that you can see them all. :-)

I was going to lay into Spidey over the disrespect in his posts, then I told myself that arguing with him is like trying to get water out of a dry well, completely unproductive.

ryan- you speak truly and representative of the church's beliefs regarding the eucharist-

it is according to the church- the actual substance of the body- there are various watered down versions over the years of this belief- but i appreciate your steadfastness in your faith-

you are no hypocrite- and that is refreshing-

in the qur'an it says- we will agree to disagree- you to your religion and me to mine.

it is excellent that you knew that and used it-
peace- and check out stevens-arroyos

Hi, Wiccan,

You are correct - your Simple Feast and our Holy Eucharist are for union with the divine. Any Christian arguments about transubstantiation are immaterial to the general argument.

Ryan Haber is ok, in my book. I don't agree with him on too much, but he presents his arguments with calm and sure words. For that he is to be respected. He ain't no spidey, to be sure! Ryan does, of course, believe that his road is the best - but that is no surprise. In that, he differs from you and me. Many roads.....

Arminius

Ryan Haber,

You have my respect - we agree to disagree. I see the compassion of our risen Lord in your words. Thank you, and God bless.

Many paths....

Arminius

Ryan Harber-

I can tell your nerves have been rubbed raw over this issue, which makes your post explaining the Eucharist even more eloquent. I cannot speak for Terra, but I believe she was doing what I did, trying my best to relate to how you feel about it in terms I can understand. To us Wiccans, the Simple Feast is sacred, as the Eucharist is to you. I believe the purpose of both rites is to become one (commune) with the Divine. Since Wiccans believe that the Divine is immanent (present and part of everything) through the Simple Feast we become One with All. In this way I try to understand and honor a rite that is holy to you, and I hope I have.

Blessed Be.

Arminius,

Thank you for your appreciation. You have mine, as well.

I know that Terra wasn't trying to tell me what "to believe" (as in, what I ought to believe). Rather, what I challenged her, and others, for is telling us what we actually believe (as in, the content of our faith). That is what she did.

"Then again the Catholic Communion is what we call The Simple Feast...to drink of the wine and eat of the grain that are the gifts of the earth...to be One with All. That is what communion means...to have mutual feelings and thoughts...to be One, in Christianity it would be one in Christ."

I may be misreading it; she is perhaps only trying to relate our beliefs to hers. She goes beyond relating them to equating them - tell us that we believe what she and hers believe. This is most explicit at the end of her post:

"Some folks need to know that the rites of their faiths are not the faith...the rites all have deeper meanings but without the connections to the meanings...they are only motions."

You are right, that she and other likeminded folks are very tolerant, very content to live and let live. So am I. The last thing I would do is try to convert or make someone believe what I do. If they ask, I try to answer. If they make a false claim about my religion, I try to clarify. I am not a theologian, nor a cleric of the Catholic Church; I am a layman with a catechism and some basic understanding philosophical and theological training. I try to explain from my own experience, in my own poor words and images.

"The unsaid issue here is that Pagans believe that there are many paths to the truth."

Of course there are! "All roads lead to Rome," but that doesn't mean that everyone is already there, or even headed in the right direction. Lol. It seems a simple distinction to me. As far as I can tell, everyone of good will is on the road to truth. That doesn't mean that everyone's arrived there.

I think the real unstated difference is this: I believe that spiritual matters, however elusive, are as objectively real as material matters (lol, if I can be redundant). Thus spiritual matters are as susceptible to truth claims as material matters, and those truth claims are as true as they accurately describe what they purport to describe. If I say that my car is in my driveway, but it is not, then my claim is false. If it is only half in the driveway, then my claim is partly true, or true to some extent, or true from some perspective; and partly false, or false to some extent or from some perspective.

We all believe this (the principle of noncontradiction) in practical, material matters. Nobody would say, "Well, for you, your car is in the driveway, and for me, your car is on the street." That's nonsense.

Well, if spiritual realities aren't real, then to hell with them. Who needs a bunch of myths. That's what atheists think we've wrapped our brains up in, and if we prattle on about how "God is nice for me, and for you she's mean, and we're both right" we are only giving them evidence that we don't really believe what we say we do, but that it's some kind of game.

Now, I can say, "God is Three-in-One," while a Muslim says, "No. God is just One. No three about God." And rather than try to twist it into "We're both right," or worse, into, "It doesn't really matter," (why then bother?) it is best to say, "Fine. We'll agree to disagree on the point. We're having a BBQ tonight - steaks. Why don't you bring the missus and kids over?" Agreeing to disagree strikes me as a perfectly workable solution. Why the need to keep on trying to explain how we all really believe the same thing deep-down after all? That is patently false - some people believe in widowburning, while I do not. As for whether the beliefs are the same, it might be best to ask the widow.

As for the many paths - of course, again, of course there are many paths to a truth. I might start by believing a room is dark, and then open my eyes and see it is lit. I might start thinking that it always has been dark, and never can be another way, and then find the light switch. In like manner, I might start by believing that widowburning is a satisfactory solution to an economic problem, and then get to meet some very nice widows who I'd not like to see burned. Or rather than meeting nice widows, my dear mother might be widowed, and I might surprise myself by not wanting to see her burned (Mom! If you're reading this - it's just an example. We've got your back!). So there are two different paths to the same moral/spiritual truth: that widowburning is not good.

It is an altogether different proposition to say that whatever one happens to believe about widowburning is true.

*My software test is done - I need to start the next one.*

God bless.

Ryan Haber,

First, let me commend you (again? don't remember) on your very civil and polite posts. And on the fact that you are quite versed in your Roman Catholic religion.

Next, Terra was not trying to tell you what to believe, she was telling you what she believes. I have conversed with her before, and her compatriots, and that is how they are. They are hugely tolerant. I respect that.

The unsaid issue here is that Pagans believe that there are many paths to the truth. I also believe that, even though I claim to be Christian - a long story. I know you will disagree with this, but that does not upset me. Been there, done that. No problem, no bias here.

Nonetheless, I respect your position. I only ask that you respect mine, and Terra's.

Arminius

Sally-

What a wonderful thing you did! You connected with Tim Russert and his survivors on a most personal level.

If this is wrong in God's eyes, what kind of God is he/she? Certainly not compassionate or forgiving!
In such a case, what difference does is make? There'd be no way to please such a fickle God, hence you still might as well do what shows love to your friend and his survivors.

I tend to believe that God IS compassionate - in such a case he/she'd be pleased!

Bless you!

-Mike from North Carolina

The Meaning of the Eucharist, in Brief
--------------------------------------

At Holy Mass, the priest approaches the altar. He has been ordained by a bishop in order to stand in for a bishop, who was himself ordained by a bishop, who was himself ordained by a bishop, who was himself ordained by a bishop, and so on for some nineteen centuries. By a solemn promise of obedience, and usually others including celibacy, he has pledged to give himself unreservedly to the Church as a groom gives himself to his bride, as Christ gave and gives Himself to the Church. When he celebrates the sacraments, makes the divine present in a particularly manifest and objective way, the priest stands in for Jesus Christ who is Himself the Divine, objectively and Manifest. The priests hands have been anointed for this task. He has trained and prepared. He has, most importantly, been ordained, ordered, directed to it.

At Holy Mass, the priest or an assistant reads the Scriptures, the Holy Word of God to the people, as Jesus Christ Himself proclaimed (and is) the Word of God. By means of this Holy Word, we are informed and our hearts and minds are slowly but surely changed. The priest or a deacon in his place then preaches, presenting the Word under another form, contemporizing it for us, helping us learn to apply it. We, the faithful gathered, respond with the Symbol, or Profession, of Faith. We say the clear, concise formula of faith to which we and our forebears have assented for seventeen centuries, and which our forebears' forebears believed implicitly though the questions had not been fully played out. This Creed is our response of trusting faith to the message and Lord whose Word we hear:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things seen and unseen; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father: God from God, Light from Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made, one in being with the Father, through whom all things were made. For us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. His Kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We believe in one baptism for the remission of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

After making our response of faith, we bring up to the priest of God offerings of bread and wine, fruit of the earth and of the vine, and the work of human hands. The priest then offers them to God as a symbol of our life and work, given over to Him. We give these gifts, not in place of our lives and work, but as signs of our life and work. We give him these things - our life and our work - because "it is right to give Him thanks and praise," for all that He has given us.

In exchange for this humble gifts, God gives us much more. It is then that the priest of God calls the Spirit of God down upon the humble bread and wine. It is then that the priest "puts on Christ" as it were, or maybe better said that Christ puts on him. In any event, he now acts in the person of Jesus Christ - not on behalf of Him, but mystically united to Him, mystically Him. The priest, in the person of Jesus Christ, says the words, those fateful words, "Take and eat: this is my body which is given for you," and "Take and drink: this is my blood of the New Covenant for the forgiveness of sins, do this in memory of me," those words by which our Blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ turned ordinary bread and wine into His very, true Body and Blood so that we could literally eat what he would do for us: give up His life on the Cross, and then take it up again from the tomb. By so instituting this Holiest Sacrament, Christ ordained that we might share in His sacrifice and its effects, the forgiveness of sin and a share in His eternal life of perfect joy. The Body that we must eat (Jn 6) and to which we must be united (Jn 15) to attain his joy and eternal life is given over FOR US on the Cross and is given TO US on the Altar of the Lord's Table. When the priest has finished the words, there is no more bread or wine left on the altar. Only the appearances of bread and wine remain. The reality of those gifts has been exchanged. We have given God bread and wine as signs of life and blood, sweat and tears; He has given us his very life, blood, sweat and tears. What a wonderful exchange!

The priest then makes His Communion - his act of unification through the Blessed Sacrament, eating the Body and drinking the Blood of our Blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, just as he commanded. He distributes these precious gifts to his assistants, and then with them exits the sanctuary of the altar to share those gifts with the faithful gathered.

Those of us, and I am not in this number every day or week, who believe that Creed in unison with the Church, who have lived the lifestyle commended to us by our Lord, and who are commited to the Church itself then approach the altar. Kneeling or standing, into our hands as little unworthy thrones, or into our mouths directly, the priest or his assistant places the Sacred Host, the Sacrificial and Resurrected Victim. We each of us consume our Lord and God, who has given himself freely to us for our life, and for the life of the world. We return to our seats and pray.

The priest cleans and reorders the altar, removing the various implements used in the sacrifice. He carefully cleans the chalice that held our Lord's Blood. He wipes the plate that upon which he held forth our Lord's precious Body. He refolds the cloths, so much like little burial shrouds, like little baptismal garments, that covered the altar of sacrifice.

The priest of God gives the final blessing to the people, and then instructs them to go out and, strengthened by the One whose Body they have received into their own bodies, love and serve the Lord and their neighbors.

As we draw closer to Jesus Christ, through daily seeking to conform our will unto His, through learning to behave as He did, through confessing our failures and supporting each other to begin anew, through studying His Word and Life, through our shared life of feasts and fasts, of prayer and charity - we each also draw closer to each other. In some places, this union, this communion, is invisible to the naked eye. In other places, any stranger walking into the church will notice immediately and say, "See how they love one another?"

Anyone who shares in our life and our worship is welcome to by all the rest, wherever in the world he may go, in our worship of God almighty. There are well over one billion men, women, and children in our communion. Because we want to encourage other people to join us fully, we invite them in part way - to hear God's word and to respond in faith to it. Those who do hear and do desire to join into our communion seek and are given systematic instruction on our faith, our way of life, and our means of worship. At the vigil of Easter, the night before the great high feast of our faith, the evening of the day commemorates the Resurrection of the fully human and fully divine Son of God from the dead, those persons profess their faith, are baptised (if they have not yet been by other Christians), confirmed, and then - fully united to us in faith and lifestyle - are fully united to us in worship, in the noblest act of which a person is capable - receiving into his or her body the Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, to more perfectly consummate union with him and with the brethren.

That, my friend, is something of the meaning of the Eucharist to us Catholics. Not all are aware of it. When I receive my Holy Communion each morning, a few minutes before 7 a.m., I am not sure I am aware of it. That doesn't make it any less so, just as eating a jelly doughnut mindlessly doesn't make it any less a jelly doughnut. A jelly doughnut might symbolize something, but it is first and foremost a jelly doughnut.

We might be wrong, wacky, nutty, cranky, rules-oriented, fascist, socialist, stupid, brainwashed, whatever. No matter. We assert the above statements as fact - not as mere preferences, feelings, or symbols. We may be wrong, what looks like bread might be just that - mere bread. But our assertion is emphatically NOT that it symbolizes something else, but that it IS something else. It is rather than deny these beliefs that hundreds have given their lives in imitation of our Lord.

We do not ask guests among us to believe what we do, or like that we do believe it, or care that we do believe it. We only ask them to respect that we believe these things, and if they do not, to act with integrity accordingly. For our part, it would be better if we explained these things more clearly. Most of our in-church prayer books contain a somewhat convoluted statement as to who should receive Communion and who not. But we are working on being both more inviting, and more clear about exactly to what we are inviting. Thank you for your patience with us, your slovenly and lame Christian neighbors.

Moronis, Gabriels, magic underwear, golden/stone tablets, talking snakes, prophets i.e. forturne tellers, global floods, black stones, scapulars, rosaries, indulgences, bloody wafers and wine, ascensions, assumptions, business cults fronting as religions, "hijabing" , etc. have no place in modern society.

Terra Gazelle,

You wrote: "Then again the Catholic Communion is what we call The Simple Feast...to drink of the wine and eat of the grain that are the gifts of the earth...to be One with All."

Not at all. Because two rituals have similar material and actions does not mean that they are the same, much less that they means the same to their respective participants.

"That is what communion means...to have mutual feelings and thoughts...to be One, in Christianity it would be one in Christ."

Not for Catholics, that's not what it is or means. If I may make so bold, you might be well advised to explain your own religion to people, and let them explain theirs. You'll make fewer mistakes.

"Some folks need to know that the rites of their faiths are not the faith..."

Again, you are wrong on exactly this point. Catholics believe that the Eucharist is really and truly the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ Crucified and Resurrected, lacking nothing essential to his personhood; that it is not at all bread or wine left, but only the appearances of bread and wine. That is a KEY and CENTRAL part of our faith.

To everyone else out there that isn't Catholic but knows all about our religion:

Please do not tell us Catholics what our faith is, or attempt to tell us how we are missing our own "deeper meaning." You have no idea. Maybe you used to be a former Catholic, fine, everyone on the board seems to have been a former Catholic or gone into 50 Catholic churches, or known a Catholic priest, or met a Catholic, or something else that makes them an expert in the Catholic religion, and know much more about it then "all the Catholics [they] know." Fine. The point is, you are not now Catholic, and so the conversation really has little to do with you; if you don't know that, you could at least know what you are talking about when you get involved in discussions about our religion.

It seems like common sense, common courtesy, or a common desire not to appear stupid - one of the three - would prompt as much restraint.

Coming from this as a Pagan I have been going back and forth over it.

At one point I thought of our open circles and how others would just stand respectful as we celebrated and explained to them what was going on...

Then again the Catholic Communion is what we call The Simple Feast...to drink of the wine and eat of the grain that are the gifts of the earth...to be One with All.

That is what communion means...to have mutual feelings and thoughts...to be One, in Christianity it would be one in Christ.

I think that Ms. Quinn's heart and spirit called for her to partake of the wafer and wine in the name of her friend...and their was with her. So what she did was right...

Some folks need to know that the rites of their faiths are not the faith...the rites all have deeper meanings but without the connections to the meanings...they are only motions.

Many Blessings,
terra

Yes, Sally, you did indeed open "an extremely important conversation." Thank you.

And thank you for an obvious courtesy I've never violated. You "would not have taken Communion" if there had been any (spoken or) written stricture limiting particiation to Roman Catholics.

Mary "Perhaps that IS the lesson for you to learn from your own social and religious faux pas.

Perhaps you've learned that humility is a GOOD thing, Sally, and it will change who you were previously to who you should have been all along.

As you sow, Sally, so shall you reap."

Who are you to determine who should be taught a lesson?? It seems to me that the one being arrogant is the one deeming judgment which is playing God.

A word of caution, you do reap what you sow........so what fields have you planted over the years that you a now reaping s "harvest" of??

Not so nice of a feeling when it comes back to you in the same way that you judged other is it??

Your post is evident that you have issues with revenge and unforgiveness. Having said that I imagine that your fields of reaping what you sow are "plentiful."

Ms. Quinn,

Is your mind open enough to accept the possibility that Jesus is actually physically present in a consecrated communion host?

Dear Liberal Catholic,

I have some familiarity with the Catholic doctrine, having been born into a loving Catholic family. I was for many years an alter boy and even considered, for a short while, the notion of becoming a priest.

As I grew-up and experienced more of the world, the more I began to realize that the Catholic "answers" to life's mysteries and big questions were only believable if one suspended rational, evidence based inquiry and simply chose to believe; in the face of increasingly overwhelming logical, scientific, and historical evidence to the contrary. Not only did I find the various "rules" about married priests, women's positions (or lack of) within the church wrong, I found the basic beliefs in miracles and saints and resurrections etc. to be nothing more than wishful thinking and/or simplistic ancient explanations based upon a view of the world that the authors had 2,000+ years ago.

You describe yourself as a Liberal Catholic, I've personally found much more fulfillment as a 'Liberated Catholic' and an Atheist. It is tough for anyone brought up in a religious family or society to have the courage to openly look around, but there is much to be gained by doing so.

Best wishes

I don't know, Sally.

Maybe it's more of a social thing: much like you and Broder said about a certain political couple:

"It wasn't their place. They came in and wrecked the place."

It wasn't your place, Sally. You disrespected the establishment for your own emotional needs.

For a woman who has spent decades assuming she guards the "entry gate to social Washington," who has written many articles trashing other human beings for small, petty things you found offensive but never offered acceptance or forgiveness for others who didn't fit YOUR social modes, morphing into what we call a "social snot," maybe you've finally had a chance to see yourself as others saw you, during those arrogant years of yours.

Perhaps you should receive the same kindness and forgiveness and understanding as you gave others over those decades.

Perhaps that IS the lesson for you to learn from your own social and religious faux pas.

Perhaps you've learned that humility is a GOOD thing, Sally, and it will change who you were previously to who you should have been all along.

As you sow, Sally, so shall you reap.

"[when "i" was a Naive Highly-Energetic lad & under 10, "i" found myself, out of 'Guilt' "i" guess for making Fun at a 'FATSO' Catholic Italian/Irish Girl , named IRENE {may ECLATi preserve & Protect Her & Family always} in front of all HUE{mates} , classmates in my School]

I was standing in a Catholic Church , located a block from school named "Our Lady of Solace" @ St. Pauls Church, West 17th St., Coney island, N.Y. , before a Priest."

No one should be labeled from actions that they did based on a cause "cause and effect" situation.

It is those that willfully do wrong. Feel no shame JJ.

Phillip C. Smith, Ph.D. wrote " All need to obtain a more accurate understanding of and show appropriate respect for the beliefs and practices of other religions, even of those who profess no faith in God. "

There are lots of ideas that are crazy and just one of the many is Islam's "death to infidels". You can trace back almost all of the troubles in this world coming from false religions and atheism.

Fools cannot discern what is right and wrong. Mr. Smith, a Ph.D holder, and for all the education get got, still don't know that education is a tool to separate falacy from facts and igorance from truth. Unless of course he's majoring in LIES LIKE EVOLUTION.

Whether in religion or in "sciences", it seems that stupidity rules.

As Esquire magazine used to say in derision: Why is this person laughing?

Phillip C. Smith, Ph.D. wrote " All need to obtain a more accurate understanding of and show appropriate respect for the beliefs and practices of other religions, even of those who profess no faith in God. "

There are lots of ideas that are crazy and just one of the many is Islam's "death to infidels". You can trace back almost all of the troubles in this world coming from false religions and atheism.

Fools cannot discern what is right and wrong. Mr. Smith, a Ph.D holder, and for all the education get got, still don't know that education is a tool to separate falacy from facts and igorance from truth. Unless of course he's majoring in LIES LIKE EVOLUTION.

Whether in religion or in "sciences", it seems that stupidity rules.

Phillip C Smith PhD, since you are not a Catholic, maybe you should let the Catholic clergy decide whether receiving Communion was the best way for an agnostic to honor a friend, no matter how well meaning it was. Receiving Communion, a deeply significant religious ritual in the Catholic Church, is about receiving Jesus Christ, not about honoring friends. It doesn't take much reflection to know the difference. You are free to act anyway in YOUR Church, but do have the respect that is due to other religious practices.