What My Son Taught Me About God

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Sallly, you are the last person I would expect to go in the direction of religion as a new avenue for your writing. Your essay was more of a self-analysis, not appropriate here. Your father would be as surprised as I to see your sudden interest in religion.

Norma Green

Sally.
Happy Christmas to you and yours.

Happy Christmas and Peace, Good Will, and Love to all that comment on this blog, and read this blog.

Jesus' Peace.

In 'TIME' magazine, November 13, 2006, is an article "God vs. Science", with opinions from Francis Collins a scientist and a Christian, and Richard Dawkins, a scientist and an Atheist.

Collins: For you to argue that our noblest acts are a misfiring of Darwinian behavior does not do justice to the sense we all have about the absolutes that are involved here of good and evil. Evolution may explain some features of the moral law, but it can't explain why it sould have any real significance. If it is solely an evolutionary convenience, there is really no such things as good or evil. But for me, it is much more than that. The moral law is a reason to think of God as plausible - not just a God who sets the universe in motion but a God who cares about human beings, because we seem uniquely amongst creatures on the planet to have this far-developed sense of morality. What you've said implies that outside of the human mind, tuned by evolutionary processes, good and evil have no meaning. Do you agree with that?

Dawkins: Even the question you're asking has no meaning to me. Good and evil - I don't believe that there is hanging out there, anywhere, something called good and something evil. I think that there are good things and bad things that happen.

Collins: I think that is a fundamental difference between us. I'm glad we identified it."

I say there is a difference between the SOL, the One True GOD that sets the Universe in motion, the SOL, and the God that Cares for us our HTA.

It is Time for Fallen Man to understand the fundamental difference between the Good and Evil of the Tree of 'Life'. What did Man fall from" Higher 'Beings' to Lower 'Beings'?

Good, is High Tech Science Pure-bred Asexual Physical Reproduction of Higher Human 'Beings', that are Equal Caretakers of 'Life' on a planet and in spaceships.

Evil, is Heterosexual Mis-bred Physical Reproduction of Lower Human 'Beings', that are Unqual Killers of 'Life' on planets.

Humans 'fell' from the Higher Nature to the Lower Nature of reproduciton. This was the Original Sin of the Perfect humans 'in the beginning'.

It seems to me, as we observe our Unbalanced High Tech Science, pollution, and all the war and misery on Earth, that Lower Human Beings destroy their planet and all 'Life' on it, before they can get very far out into space. It is built into the Fallen Nature.

Now we can accept/believe there is 'Eternal' Pure-bred Asexual Physical 'Life' on planets and in spaceships, for Human 'Beings' After Birth, instead of believing in 'Life?' After Death.

Eternal 'Life' is for the Living, not the Dead.

Peace and Jesus' Asexual Agape Love.

Is anyone interested in a High Tech Science of Creation of Life on a planet? Our Scientists said when they can Colonize a planet, they would send in a blue-green algae bomb into the soupy atmosphere, like it was on Earth 'in the beginning'. It would take 1000 years Earth time for this process. With the Lord, 1 Day is as a thousand years.

This algae would break down the soup and make the firmament/atmosphere gasses, which would include the Ozone layer. Blue-green algae is the oldest element on Earth. Earth was not the first planet to have Human Life, it was Colonized by High Tech Science.

In theBible, the algae/spirit of God, also separated out the water, the waters below the atmosphere/firmament made the seas. The water above the atmosphere made an Ice-Crystal Canopy. The two Canopies protected Life on Earth from the Electro-Magnetic rays of the Sun.

This happened on Days 1 and 2 of the Creation on Earth in the Bible. On Day 3, the bushes, trees, grass, etc. were added. This finished clearing the atmosphere and the sun, moon, and stars could be seen from land.

Day 4, the sun, moon, and stars were not made as religion has taught since the loss of High Tech Science. There cannot be a planet before the Universe, Galaxy or the Solar System.

Day 5, the fish and fowl were added, and on Day 6, the animals and Man were added. This is they Way to Colonize a planet.

This 6 Days is is an Intelligent Design to Colonize a Planet with High Tech Science. Life may have Evolved somewhere in the Universe, Galaxy, or Solar System, but Life on Earth was Colonized. By whom?

The God that talked to the Adam and Eve Colony was a Human, not a spirit. This God, that looked like Humans and talked to many, and was seen by many, is our High Tech Ancestors (HTA), Higher 'Beings', that Colonized Earth, like our Scientists would today if we had the resources.

This God that looked like Humans, and flew in fiery chariots, and sat upon thrones up in the air, is our HTA. The GOD, the Source Of Life (SOL) of the Atom (Matter) and the Elecro-Magnetic Force (Spirit), is not Human. This is the One True GOD of the Universes, that has never been seen. A Man God, made of Atoms, could not create the Atom and EMF and the Universes.

It is time to translate the Bible with High Tech Science and accept that Earth was Colonized, it did not Evolve on Earth. It is time to accept the Man Gods and Angels were our HTA that Colonized Earth.

My web site explains this in the Creation section.
http://home.kc.rr.com/hightech/home.html

Sally Quinn,

My goodness, what a deftly written story you have authored, what a remarkable young man you have raised. He is so tolerant, a quality rarely seen, as is evident in many of the previous posts. It is encouraging to see this quality among the young.

I find your path to atheism an interesting one, and not uncommon. I’m assuming that the conclusion of your close up exposure to the ravages of the Korean War was that no God would permit this horror, so he must not exist. This is always a problem for those who believe in a omnipotent and just God. With all the manifest injustices in the world, such a God is a bit incoherent. Personally I’ve not found this sufficient to conclude that no God exists. The Greeks certainly had Gods behaving badly, and the Romans, so people behaving badly was just another manifestation of what was Holy to them. It also still leaves the door open to God as “Creator” as mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. He need not be omnipotent or even moral, just eternally creative.

Your son’s path to God is impossible to quarrel with. There is nothing wrong with finding comfort in religion. It works to cope with the difficult concept of death, to sustain optimism in the face of challenges, to cope with grief, and to sustain hope. He has “reasoned” his way to his faith, to his choice. I have always envied his present state of mind in others, for the very reason he chose it, but I have never been able to make the leap of faith required for myself.

Personally, I don’t claim to be an atheist. Rather, I have never found any reason to suppose any God or Gods exist or persuasive evidence of them. But I cannot close the door. Consider “dark matter”, something we cannot see or interact with, yet it fills something like two thirds of the universe. Ten years ago the idea didn’t exist, but today we find persuasive evidence that such matter does. The universe is full of mysteries, and full of answers we keep finding. It is perfectly normal that there are new mysteries uncovered as fast or faster than old mysteries are explained. It is a process of discovery and change to our knowledge that has no beginning and no end. The magic of nature is the magic of nature whether you suppose it was created by God or by evolution.

Athiests have to come to grips with difficult matters. There is no life after death, there is not even identity after death. There is no meaning to life. Good and evil don’t exist; good things happen and bad things happen for no particular reason. We have just one life to live. Its rather stark isn’t it?

Do you think you're a good person?

CANYON:
"In the 999 in 1000 chance that the Bible is correct, what are you going to say to God when you stand on trial in the Great White Throne room?"

I'd say, why do let murders, rapists, and child molesters in, but not good people who don't believe in you.

In the 999 in 1000 chance that the Bible is correct, what are you going to say to God when you stand on trial in the Great White Throne room?

CANYON:
"You love evolution because you can do whatever your heart desires and you have no one to account to. If the Bible is true, you're in for a very painful awakening."

Yes it's great...I CAN do anything and not worry about it.
While you're worrying about if you're doing what god wants, I'll be having fun...
and in the end, we'll both die
and that's it

p.s. I don't love evolution...I actually only think about it every now and then (especially on here!)
The nice thing is, as new evidence is presented, my thinking changes, unlike yours.

The sea-horse/land-horse...brilliant!

Since you've been foundering for so long, I'll finally give you Proof for Evolution:

The Sea-Horse is the evolutionary ancestor of the Land-Horse.

You know how I know that? The sea-horse looks like a Land-Horse, they both have horse in their name, the Horse gallops and the Sea Horse bobs, sea horses are used in herbal medicine and horse urine is used for a variety of hormone suppliments.

Never mind that the Sea Horse has gills and the horse has lungs, the male sea horse raises the babies and the female horse raises the babies, never mind the sea horse has never brought forth anything but fish and the horse nothing but horses and mules(a genetically deficient horse).

Sound a bit like Tiktaalik? A definitive lobe-fin fish...

GAy_Atheist, perhaps the greatest proof in your case for the Bible's truth is that you're incapable of saying,

I've ignored God, worshipped science, blasphemed, hated, lusted, stolen, lied, and coveted; if the Bible is true, and I get what I deserve, I would end up in Hell.

You love evolution because you can do whatever your heart desires and you have no one to account to. If the Bible is true, you're in for a very painful awakening.

to CANYON SHEARER
a little more about Tiktaalik:

"Tiktaalik fits temporally and anatomically between Panderichthys and Acanthostega. The former was primarily adapted for marine life; the latter was better adapted to terrestrial life. Tiktaalik still has fins, but the bone structure inside those fins is clearly intermediate between fish and amphibians; Acanthostega is the first species with true feet, and those feet are of course connected to the axial skeleton. Tiktaalik also has a pelvic girdle that is much stronger and more adapted to being able to hold itself up out of the water (remember, these are shallow water fish). And the skull is also directly intermediate between the earlier marine-adapted specimens and the later, more terrestrial-adapted tetrapods."

Oh joy another one!

And what Jesse, is your take on how "things" came about?

CANYON:
"do you think God cares if a baby has a cleft-lip? Or an arythmic heart? Yes He cares and it makes Him hate sin even more."

And yet he doesn't prevent birth defects...

"How do you look in the sin department?"

I look fine in that department...I already know what you're going to say..."if you've ever lied, blah blah blah, if you've ever looked at someone with lust, blah blah blah...

I guarantee you have probably done worse things than I have in your life and that is why you are so INTO your religion.

GA-A...

"Its a gradual change" What are you studying? Please if you are going to comment in your field, should you not have the current information of your field? Is it macro or micro evolution and what evolutionary brand are you speaking. Your masters are currently running with the concept of an evolutionary burst (a QUICK period which explains the lack of inter-speciation). If you have missed the lastest in the publishing, then you need to re-educate yourself to the masters of your continuing faith...sorry evolution. Please, stop spilling incorrect understandings. You want to discuss evolution, but fail to understand your faiths latest publishing??? Evolution is evolving, even the experts are beginning to agree that the theories are bursting to new levels. Well...you want the rock..... www. depotmart.com

Enjoyed the article.

Being believers in God, but in a mixed marriage, we decided early on to celebrate the holidays of both but chose not to attend a place of worship. At home, we lived by the golden rule, but did not endorse any religion.

When our daughters were in High School, they not only found religion, but were baptized in a non-denominational church, and with our blessing.

I'll always be grateful for their involvement with organized religion as it seemed to give them both focus, direction and security at a time frought with doubt and difficulty among so many teenagers.

Sometime after entering college, both daughters left the church. They still believe in God, but have gone on to study other beliefs and are noncommittal to any particular religion today.

Like Mother, like daughters.

Aha, another religious brain-washing technique, "Evolution takes a long time!"

That is the truest statement there is concerning evolution. It takes so long it still hasn't happened yet! Maybe if we give it another 6,600 years it will, but until then, evolution is a farse.

Sin is a serious thing, it killed a lot of sinless animals, plants, stars, and babies. That's a terrible shame. But it's not God's fault, the blame is entirely on man, do you think God cares if a baby has a cleft-lip? Or an arythmic heart? Yes He cares and it makes Him hate sin even more.

How do you look in the sin department?

CANYON:
"You're right there is nothing to convince me of evolution, because evolution doesn't occur."

and so, it is pointless to provide evidence...

"I love how you've gotten so tiny and small when looking for evolutionary proof. "Look, in this super-duper microscope! That thing might have just evolved!" Why don't you just look up and pick one of the hundreds of proofs you can see with the naked eye?"

That's because evolution isn't instantaneous...
It's a GRADUAL CHANGE!

"The first sin caused all of the death in the world"

and birth defects to innocent (I guess not to you or God) children.

GAy_Atheist,

The first sin caused all of the death in the world.

You're right there is nothing to convince me of evolution, because evolution doesn't occur.

I love how you've gotten so tiny and small when looking for evolutionary proof. "Look, in this super-duper microscope! That thing might have just evolved!" Why don't you just look up and pick one of the hundreds of proofs you can see with the naked eye?

What? None exist? That's odd, perhaps your magical pseudoscience doesn't happen?

GLZ, redefining context doesn't make you right.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/context
Check out number 2.

The custom wasn't made into law, it was legislated so that the women would be more fairly treated and that lust would not win the day. People created the atrocity, God limited it.

What you're missing is that in the verses you are reading is that in many places, the Bible is a History book. The verses you posted have little bearing on one another because they were for specific events. You're right, it is shocking and not a nice time or place. Believe it or not, God did not create a 2nd Millenium United States in order to begin life on earth.

I'm not going to go verse by verse because there are a lot of atrocites in the Old Testament, the point of most of those verses is that the enemies of the Israelites were without God's grace, God had finally turned His back on them due to their rampant sin and disobedience. The violence which those people suffered was a result of being Children of Wrath.

God has a lot of patience and longsuffering, but it won't last forever. Are you living according to God's standards?

Canyon Shearer,

Thanks for your thoughts on my posting. But I'm puzzled that you were bothered about me taking things "out of context" when you promptly entered into debate with GA_Atheist about Tiktaalak relative to evolution. That certainly wasn't in keeping with Sally's article.

You said I took Deut. 21:10-13 out of context. It couldn't have been more in context. There is no verse I excluded that alters the meaning of what was quoted, which is what taking out of context means.

You said it was common custom among many warring peoples of the age to take women captive and rape them. True, but the point is that this common custom was adopted by God (your God) and made into law for his chosen people to live by. That makes all the difference.

Of these captured women you said "Moses clearly said that they were not property" I wish you had referenced that. It couldn't have come from Numbers 31, when after rounding up 100,000 or so Midianite women and children whose husbands and fathers had just been slaughtered by the Israelites, Moses said to his soldiers (v. 17-18) Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who is not a virgin. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." They were spoils of war. They were awarded to the soldiers, and the priests got an extra share. They were property.

You couldn’t have gotten it from Leviticus 25:46-46 either. There the Lord God declares to his people “Moreover of the children of the strangers who sojourn among you, of them you may buy, and of their families that are with you, which they have begotten in your land; and they shall be your possession. And you shall make them an inheritance for your children after you, to hold for a possession.” Yes, the Israelites held servants (a.k.a. slaves) as inheritable property. And don’t say it was custom, keeping slaves was God’s gift to Abraham.

Of the 30 day waiting period God required before molesting captive girls, you said “if after 30 days you are still sexually attracted to her, and she still to you,” That is blatantly wrong. This was about the desires of the men of God, a woman’s desire was irrelevant. Find the verse that says the woman had a say in this arrangement. Quote it. This was not a romance as you imply. This was violence. This was rape. This was approved by God.

You said the clothes taken off the women were seductive, to entice their captors into choosing them (for slavery, I assume). Read the account of the attack on Midian in Numbers 31 and see if you think these women (pubescent girls actually) were decked out like hookers to win the favor of the Israelite soldiers who just massacred their fathers, mothers, and little brothers. There were 32,000 such "virgins" in this story, and they weren't looking for soldier sugar daddies. They were too traumatized. Speaking of which, you made another deceptive statement here. You said the women "knew that they were to become the property of the non-Israelite victors" These passages are not about "non-Israelite victors". They are about God’s chosen people.

The clothes of captivity (that you said were like something from Victoria’s Secret), were actually the clothes they happened to be wearing when Moses launched his surprise attack. They were the clothes of the Midianite culture, a culture despised by Moses. They were clothes worn by captive women, hence “clothes of captivity.” Where did you get your information about seductive clothing? Not the Bible. Can you cite anything you claim?

You said these rules were for "specific peoples who were fighting a specific other peoples," Absolutely correct. They were specifically for God's chosen people, to be carried out against anyone they encountered on their way to the promised land. The Midianites weren’t even Caananites. They were distant cousins of the Israelites: descendants of Midian, son of Abraham.

In discussions of the Christian God, the Bible is the context. Believers in the infallible, inerrant word of God love to debate evolution because at the end of the day they cannot be proven wrong. But if you want to go to the core of the matter, and talk about Yahweh the father of Jesus, (who said I and the father are one) there is no better place to start than the Old Testament. Without the rose colored glasses of indoctrination, what you’ll find is positively shocking!

I'll be away for a little while, but if you have more to say, I'll be back.

Quinn has it about right, where he says we are all agnostics, since we all vacillate in our understanding, over the span of our lives.
Some days there is little solace in the challenges and reversals of fortune we all face, and other days can be filled with grace and magic.

To insist that our source, the source of our essence and being, has to have the qualities ascribed by the more insistent and articulate voices of the past, or the strict definitions of some present organizational structure brings a tyranny of dogma, which rather than freeing the mind, shackles it, leaving less room to find common ground with others - who are also looking for better answers, for a greater peace, for a more meaningful understanding with others.

Religious thought has always evolved within the communities where it is expressed, and eventually adapts to changing circumstance, or declines altogether. Such is history.

Individuals, however, have the insistence of consciousness, which has in its design a natural and insistent sense of renewal, according to how awake we are, with every moment offering at minimum some slight new perspective.

This leads to the creative actions of art, and culture, and even in a larger sense civilization, always renewing, according to the latest generations' inspiration and invention.

Every faith gets crystalized in time and with its original vision as observed by its most articulate leader, then over time suffers the fate of all things, through interpretation and reinterpretation, translation and retranslation, debate, dispute, decay, decline.

Each new generation must re-view, re-consider, re-imagine, re-calibrate the whole of their perceived world.
And so it goes, generation after generation.

Agnosticism assisted by an open mind is perhaps the most rational stance for the long haul...

TO Canyon Shearer,

There is obviously NOTHING that will convince you of evolution despite the hundreds of top scientists that endorse it.
Even religious leaders recognize it...

Anyway...
I don't recall an answer to this question I posed to you:

CANYON SHEARER:
"Birth/Eye/DNA defects are a result of sin"

Now that is a good explanation!

So a baby born without a face is because of sin?!

Whose? The parents?

Common building blocks of life don't support a common descent, they support a common design, which points to a common designer!

My Chevrolet has steel in it, which is made up of carbon and iron among other things...my Honda has steel in it...clearly they both were shot out of a volcano where there is a Chevrolet/Honda hybrid from which all cars came...

Tiktaalak is a poor example for either Creation Science or Evolutionary Religion. They found it about three days ago, and neither Scientists nor pseudoscientists have had any real time to analyze or report on it. More than likely Tiktaalak is just a previously unknown species of lobe-fin fish. Time will tell, what we know right now is that Tiktaalak is a fish, has no formation of lungs, and probably produced fish, not crocodiles. If anything Tiktaalak shows just how ignorant the human race is of the vast expanse of things we don't know yet.

Tiktaalak, while it could possibly, maybe, probably not, be a missing link, is so obscure and inconclusive, that the fact it has been offered up for a proof for evolution makes evolutionists look desperate and even more stupid than ever.

These are the 'facts' you're basing your eternity on?

Sally,
Thanks for sharing your personal insights. I'm very glad you did the right thing and let Quinn make up his own mind about religion. You respected his right to think for himself, and I'm glad you respect him even though he came to different conclusions than you did.

“I also believe that if you think about God, if you say his name all the time, then you will believe in him. It will be in your subconscious”

But I think Quinn hit the nail on the head. If you say God's name all the time you will believe in him. He's brainwashed himself into believing in God. For me, truth should be based on reality instead of brainwashing.

Canyon Shearer once again...

Here's something recent:

"What has the head of a crocodile and the gills of a fish?
May 2006

Tiktaalik, of course. Pronounced tik-TAA-lik, this 375 million year old fossil splashed across headlines as soon as its discovery was announced in April of 2006. Unearthed in Arctic Canada by a team of researchers led by Neil Shubin, Edward Daeschler, and Farish Jenkins, Tiktaalik is technically a fish, complete with scales and gills — but it has the flattened head of a crocodile and unusual fins. Its fins have thin ray bones for paddling like most fishes', but they also have sturdy interior bones that would have allowed Tiktaalik to prop itself up in shallow water and use its limbs for support as most four-legged animals do. Those fins and a suite of other characteristics set Tiktaalik apart as something special; it has a combination of features that show the evolutionary transition between swimming fish and their descendents, the four-legged vertebrates — a clade which includes amphibians, dinosaurs, birds, mammals, and of course, humans."

CANYON SHEARER

Here some more...of course you won't accept this either

"The proteomic evidence also supports the universal ancestry of life. Vital proteins, such as the ribosome, DNA polymerase, and RNA polymerase are found in the most primitive bacteria to the most complex mammals. The core part of the protein is conserved across all lineages of life, serving similar functions. Higher organisms have evolved additional protein subunits, largely affecting the regulation and protein-protein interaction of the core. Other overarching similarities between all lineages of extant organisms, such as DNA, RNA, amino acids, and the lipid bilayer, give support to the theory of common descent. The chirality of DNA, RNA, and amino acids is conserved across all known life. As there is no functional advantage to right or left handed molecular chirality, the simplest hypothesis is that the choice was made randomly in the early beginnings of life and passed on to all extant life through common descent."

GLZ, way to take things out of context...good job...it takes a lot of effort to take things that far out of context.

The verse is refering to a common custom among many warring peoples of the age. It was very common for women to become the 'property' of the victors. Moses clearly said that they were not property.

It was also common to rape them the moment you felt the urge. Verse 13 clearly says to wait 30 days, if after 30 days you are still sexually attracted to her, and she still to you, then marry.

Verse 13 is most important because it says, "Put off the clothes of her captivity." Do you know what that means? Of course not, you wouldn't spend the time to find out the context. The women, according to custom, knew that they were to become the property of the non-Israelite victors, and in an effort to find better favor and a good husband from amongst the soldiers would dress in very seductive ways, hence "Clothes of Captivity".

The bits and odds you added have very little to do with the verse.

More importantly, that rule was given to s specific peoples who were fighting a specific other peoples, it has no bearing today.

In the future, please read a bit of context before you go spouting off ignorance.

To everyone who urges Sally to turn to Christ,

The scripture reading for today is Deuteronomy 21:10-13.

10: When you go forth to battle against your enemies, and the Lord your God has given them into your hands, and you carry them away captive, 11: And you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her, that you may have her as your wife, 12: Then you shall bring her home to your house; and she shall shave her head and pare her nails 13: And put off her prisoner's garb and shall remain in your house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. (The
Amplified Bible).

Strangely at odds with "Thou shalt not commit adultry" and "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife," this lesser known law of God was everybit as important as the Ten Commandments. It gave a soldier permission to take a captive women he lusted for, shave her head, cut her nails, strip her of clothes, and lock her up for a month. When her spirit was broken he raped her. He could bring home a new slave woman everytime he went to battle, even if he was married before he took his first. It was combat pay, given by God to the soldiers of his chosen people. This is the God who is head of the triune, father of Jesus, who some people think is the one, true, creator God, while others don't agree.

This is one of scores of obscure Bible facts and little known stories you won't hear about in church, or sign about in Sunday School.

The common thread to 90 percent of these comments is....Narcissim.

What a wonderful article. I think there are many of us who are believers, we just have our very own beliefs. It's difficult to believe in someone else's idea of God.

I can't believe the Episcopalian Minister who wouldn't perform the baptism. Is that a message of love? All paths lead to God.

Your son sounds so level headed and strong.

If you have a moment please drop by www.interfaithforums.com and share your wisdom with us.

Many blessings to you and your family.

Dear Duff,

Many things would change how I think. A proof for evolution would change how I think, space aliens would change how I think...

I was brainwashed by evolution for 23 years, I have no interest to get back into the thought-depressing theology surrounding that crazy pseudoscience.

As for does Jesus speak to me? He has, between 1600 BC and 100 AD He spoke 1188 Chapters, 513 Proverbs, 150 Psalms, 66 Books, 10 Commandments, and 1 Way. He spoke to you as well, you have simply chosen not to hear. See Matthew 13:14-15

Canyon Sheep Shearer,
I have a feeling that nothing in the world would change how you feel, or think. Your first inclination is to agree with me on that particular fact, but maybe you should recognize that people who can't be influenced by facts and, or, logic are in most cases functionally insane, if I may use a lay term. Would insanity apply to your case? No, of course not. Which of us would believe such a thing having read the deep, meaningful musings you've given us.
Does Jesus speak to you in the depths of your awesomely deep mind? I'll just bet he does.

GAy_Atheist,

We're not discussing the existence of God, we're discussing the existence of evolution.

Again, you are brainwashed. You see influenza changing and you say, "Influenza is evolving into a master-flu and will soon kill us all!"

The truth is that influenza is de-evolving, it is getting worse. When an antibiotic is found that cures a certain stain of influenza, it kills off the ones that it can kill, the ones that are left are a different strain which have lost the enzyms which the antibiotic attacks. It is a worse-off virus, yet through natural selection, it survives. Natural selection disproves evolution.

Imagine a murder-squad comes into your place of business, hand-cuffs everyone, leads them off, and shoots them in the head. Imagine you have no arms...the squad cannot hand-cuff you...do you think that because you survived due to not being able to be hand-cuffed makes you better off? No, by selection, you have survived, but major information has been lost.

That is how influenza viruses disprove evolution.

Surely you must have something better than that.

CANYON SHEARER:
"Mr. GAy_Atheist..."

You got me! That is so clever!

Here:

"...on a minor scale, we "experience" evolution occurring every day. The annual changes in influenza viruses and the emergence of antibiotic-resistant bacteria are both products of evolutionary forces. Indeed, the rapidity with which organisms with short generation times, such as bacteria and viruses, can evolve under the influence of their environments is of great medical significance. Many laboratory experiments have shown that, because of mutation and natural selection, such microorganisms can change in specific ways from those of immediately preceding generations."

oh, and your "evidence" of god, please
(and the Bible doesn't count)

Dear GA atheist-I see what you mean.

Mr. GAy_Atheist...

Why haven't you posted a fact for evolution? It seems like it would be simple if any existed.

I've never seen anyone be so soundly beaten as yourself and yet refuse to throw in the towel.

Kudos on your fanaticism.

Canyon,

Despite my religious convictions, I have to side with the Atheists on this one.

Your comment, "Birth/Eye/DNA defects are a result of sin." sounds a bit fanatical and frankly...insane.

Are you sure you are not really an Atheist troll trying to stir it up?

Lug

CANYON SHEARER (again):
"Ahahahaha, GA_Athiest, it's so nice to see you spreading your lies and hate once again"

hate?

how am I spreading hate?

CANYON SHEARER:
"Birth/Eye/DNA defects are a result of sin"

Now that is a good explanation!

So a baby born without a face is because of sin?!

Whose? The parents?

Yes, ASHLEY, he is a GREAT Example of faith-based reasoning...just look at the birth defect quote!

Canyon Shearer is an excellent example of what faith-based reasoning can do to a person's ability to think.

Canyon Shearer - People are simply not answering you question about evolution because arguing with you would be a waste of time.

I enjoyed your article and wanted to express how much I agree with Quinn's statement, “I’m happy the way I was brought up religiously. If you had taught me there was only one thing I was supposed to believe then I wouldn’t have options. You taught me I could believe in anything I wanted to believe."

Luckily, (and the wiser I become the luckier I count myself for this fact) I was brought up by two free-thinking parents who gave me little religious education but were always open to discussing the issue.

As an adult I know my mother to be a wonderful, moral person who doesn't go to church but believes in a moral code larger than ourselves. My father, as a scientist, is deeply agnostic and fearful of what faith-based reasoning can do to a person's ability to think. By the way, these two people have been happily married for over 35 yrs.

Much like your family does, we openly admitted our doubts and our beliefs too. Afterall, my sister and I had an ally from either parent depending on how we felt that day.

Here's the irony for all those who feel Doubt is evil: I feel all the more certain that God exists because of the rational debates I had with one parent and the openmindedness of the other. I came through my belief not because I was taught to believe, but because I was taught that it was okay to search.

I, simply, have a personal need to believe in something. So I do. Others may not.....it's the search that matters.

Perhaps we find God in each other. I had the pleasure of meeting Quinn two years ago when I was invited to the Brome Howard by my husband (boyfriend at the time)'s family. It was the first time I was meeting Lisa (his big sister) and various other extended family members. Quinn dropped by, Lisa invited him to join the family dinner, and I felt a little relief that there was someone else at the table to quiz. We all ended up having a lovely dinner with much political discussion and debate.

While reading your article I couldn't help but remember that night and how much everyone there has grown to mean to me through the rituals of marriage and holidays. It's all intertwined, isn't it?

Ahahahaha, GA_Athiest, it's so nice to see you spreading your lies and hate once again, I thought you'd bailed out when you realized how ridiculous your religion was.

We already discussed the half-eye, it proves de-evolution, and is a loss of genetic material.

Birth/Eye/DNA defects are a result of sin.

About Katrina...I'd assume you'd have gotten tired of standing up and knocking down straw-men by now.

Mr. GA_Athinkist, when you find a fact for evolution, will you please post it, until then stop saying, "There are many!" because it makes you look like a zealous fool.

Tammy, Evolution has never been proved, it will never be proved. You cannot see it working in the world. True, there are variations, which have brainwashed the world into thinking that because we can produce a watermelon without seeds that somehow nature could produce a person with Kangaroo legs, Ape arms, Hawk eyes, and Canine hearing. If men or nature could make something like that happen, I might believe in evolution, but it doesn't happen, people produce people, monkeys produce monkeys, watermelons produce watermelons.

There is NO evidence for otherwise, or else it would be front page news every day until the end of time.

Okay, here we go again...
Hasn't evolution been proven, seriously?
Can't you see it at work, on every commercial farm? We breed plants & animals for the characteristics we find desirable; the same process is at work in nature, only there's no hand guiding it. It's just cosmic luck-of-the-draw. That makes me, you,Canyon Shearer, any of Darwin's finches, Hitler himself, and every other organic life-form in the cosmos an unabashed and unrepeatable miracle of Nature.
It also has nothing to do with Sally Quinn's thoughtful essay, for which I must say, "thanks".

To Craig and other atheists/agnostics/free-thinkers:

There's no point in arguing with CANYON SHEARER...
He doesn't listen to anything you say.

Since it's been a while, I will anyway.

CANYON SHEARER:
"Your opinion on the human eye is a new line of thought from the evolutionary corner, I'll have to admit, the stupidity behind this school of thought surprised me! You cannot explain how it could have possibly come to be without a designer, so you choose to attack its merits. You look like the enraged teenager who throws his Algebra book on the ground because he can't figure out a problem and screams, "Algebra is stupid!" Your lack of understanding doesn't make it less perfectly designed. If the human eye weren't a perfect fit for our human bodies, please design for me a better one, or explain why a better one hasn't evolved...the eyes you cited are not better eyes, they are just better designed for life under water...perfectly designed for life under water, as a matter of fact."

First, he already explained why the eye wasn't "perfect"
Second, what about the evidence that there is a "half-eye" that does show the ability of the detection of light/shadows, but not clear vision?
What about Glaucoma and other eye problems? Is that a "perfect" design?!
What about all the birth defects? Good design?!

"Have you ever wondered why we have tides? It is so that the ocean constantly cleans the coastline. In areas such as Biloxi, MS, God has showed us what would happen if the tides didn't work. The Ocean would be a sea of green slime if it weren't for the moon. It's incredibly and perfectly designed."

And what about Katrina and other hurricanes? Was that designed to kill the black people in N.O?

"Craig, if you'd like to post for me one fact that proves evolution, I'd love to hear it. I'm an expert on evolution, and if I can't find a fact for it, I'm pretty certain that none exist"

Here we go again...
To everyone: Canyon Shearer CONTINUOUSLY asked for evidence for evolution on another of these "threads" and was given numerous...he dismissed them all with none of his own "real" evidence.

This is why it's pointless (but sometimes fun anyway) arguing with him.

The saddest line I read in the bible was one that said, '...the god of this earth has blinded their eyes..'. God gave us brains to do good, but now we've risen above our creator and have questioned His existence and right to our lives. We have put our trust in systems created by mere man that are constantly crumbling each and every day. But we should all be aware that there are times even grace runs out and our words come back to haunt us. Remember the Titanic, they said even God could not sink it...
There is a song by Nicole Norderman that asks the question, "What if you are wrong? What if its true?" Having faith in God is not a burden, you loose nothing by asking Him to reveal all truth to you. If today you died and actually realized that indeed there is God and hell is real, what happens then? Its a point of no return, you cannot come back and make right. Jesus told a parable of the rich man and Lazarus.Both died, one going to heaven and the other to hell. The rich man asked Lazarus to dip his finger in the water and put on a drop on his tongue because he was tormented in the flames. Abraham replied and told the rich man that there was such a deep chasm that seperated the two that it was not possible.The rich man then asked that someone be sent back to his brothers who were still not believers to warn them, but Abraham responded that they have many who are with them telling them the truth and sending back one from the dead would make no difference.Are you so jaded that you would not even heed one who had come back from the grave to warn you, let alone those are at this hour? Well, I do pray that as people share in this forum that one would ask for God to reveal all truth to them, because eternity is a really long time to spend regretting.

Sally,
Run, don't walk to the nearest book store and purchase The God Delusion. Trust me, if you have any brains, you won't drift any closer to believing in a supernatural being than you are now. It will save you from becoming stupid.

AMCL,

Correction, no one can prove me wrong on evolution because I am on the side of Truth. Truth is extremely unfair in arguments such as these.

I am constantly amazed that although evolution is such a blatant religion and lie, 49% of the United States populace still believes in it. It's gone so far as being our state-religion, taught in our schools while restricting freedom of other religions. We haven't taken religion out of our schools, we've replaced it.

My ascertation: Evolution doesn't happen.

Your goal: Prove me wrong.

Canyon Shearer,

No one can prove you wrong when you engage in circular reasoning.

Dear Craig,

Thank you for introducing your religion to the comments section. Evolutionism is often overlooked when examining the worlds religions.

You have fallen for brainwashing just like I had, and just like many have, in the pseudoscience of evolution.

You say that the Earth only appears to be designed for people...that's just like saying that it appears that a car was designed for people...after all...it's the right size, has controls for both hands, both feet, a restraint that fits perfectly, but clearly they weren't designed for people, we only use cars because we fit in them. Why don't we ask the 'evolutionary miracles' that are living on Mars...Venus...Neptune...the Sun...how well their environments fit them? Clearly they'd say that their environments were designed for them...but wait, none of them were!

Your opinion on the human eye is a new line of thought from the evolutionary corner, I'll have to admit, the stupidity behind this school of thought surprised me! You cannot explain how it could have possibly come to be without a designer, so you choose to attack its merits. You look like the enraged teenager who throws his Algebra book on the ground because he can't figure out a problem and screams, "Algebra is stupid!" Your lack of understanding doesn't make it less perfectly designed. If the human eye weren't a perfect fit for our human bodies, please design for me a better one, or explain why a better one hasn't evolved...the eyes you cited are not better eyes, they are just better designed for life under water...perfectly designed for life under water, as a matter of fact.

Have you ever wondered why we have tides? It is so that the ocean constantly cleans the coastline. In areas such as Biloxi, MS, God has showed us what would happen if the tides didn't work. The Ocean would be a sea of green slime if it weren't for the moon. It's incredibly and perfectly designed.

It isn't a matter of one thing being designed for us, which would prove God, it is the fact that EVERYTHING important was designed for us and to support life on Earth...

Your opinion on the matter mirrors Douglas Adam's opinion that the world only looks like it was designed for us...but I think it's important to look into Mr. Adam's(May God Have Mercy on his Soul) religion of evolution. That man LOVED evolution, he went so far as to deify it, it worked very well for his incredible books, and he rode it for all it was worth. I wish I could have talked to him about his blind faith before he died at a relatively young age. :(

Craig, if you'd like to post for me one fact that proves evolution, I'd love to hear it. I'm an expert on evolution, and if I can't find a fact for it, I'm pretty certain that none exist.

Please prove me wrong.

What about Hitler, the Khmer Rouge and all the people that die or get murdered every day?

Sally,

I have two children and I want to thank you for sharing these special moments with us. I survived Vietnam and have had some of the same feeling you expressed. I do believe, but in another way. I look at the sky, the earth and all of the things that we have and I feel thankful. I know that something has created it and I want to experience it all as positively and possible. I am retired and in TN now. We used to live in St. Mary's county in Hollywood and I know you all were neighbors. Thanks again.

What strikes me is that so many people find God when they need him, not before. And when they do turn to God, He/She turns out to fit so exactly our own ideas of 'what ought to be'.

I suspect we all create God in our own image, not vice-versa. That's not to say that there is no valid spiritual life; a person is so much more than the sum of his biological parts. We appear to need a sense of transcendence, a sense of something above the mundane and immediate.

I've come to believe that God is found in the search for God, the transcendant, not in the end of the search as a finite discovery. To define God in the human terms of limited understanding actually dimishes God and the possibilities therein.

I am inclined to think that there is no proof of the existence of God (or against) sufficient to convince a careful thinker, but I'll offer a few thoughts to ponder anyway.

1. For those that consider suffering a strike against God, think of this Earth as a testing ground for improving our spiritual and moral strength. Those of us that grow closer in compliance with the laws of God, through time, gain greater joy, completeness, and peace. Those of us that waste our spiritual opportunities by befriending evil, through time, acquire pain and discord. These two processes are often not conveniently timed to make an obvious cause/effect pattern. The fact that terrible evil exists does not mean that God is absent, only that some people are not learning the lesson.

2. In this day and age, we habitually think that physical matter is all that ever is, was, or shall be. But physical matter does not assemble itself into the complex structures required for life, or more correctly, matter doesn't move at all of its own accord. I would venture to say that all order occurs first in the mind of a conscious entity, and consciousness is a substance existing apart from matter.

3. We exist in consciousness! A part of The Consciousness.

OK, not poetry, but some meaning.

Thanks, Sally, for writing a story to stir me to write.

Jeff

I don't understand why people use terrible things happening to be proof that God doesn't exist. Its not God's job to stop terrible things.
People can stop terrible things by being courageous

One's belief or disbelief in God does not change His existence or who He is. I cannot prove God to anyone....God must prove Himself and to many over the years that I have encouraged to open their hearts to God and allow Him to prove Himself to them He always has!

Jeff

This hits real close to home. Raised Catholic, I always assumed my kids would be raised as I was. But my own parents were never that religious. I learned about religion in Catholic school.

Now I know why. How can you teach this stuff to a kid? Kids are in a "magical thinking" state to begin with that it seems so exploitive to teach them myths and abstractions at a time when you are trying to provide them with facts and structure so that they can get a handle on reality.

I'm trying to expose my kids to all religions. They should learn to respect and appreciate the rich palette of beliefs that humankind has developed over its history.

I've found that over the years, each religion I've encountered has some sort of gem that I can use and adapt--some insight into my life and relationships. I've also evolved into a more skeptical view of the existance of God. Eastern religions tell me to embrace the mystery of the unknowable. But Western religions beckon to pluck reason and logic from the mysteries.

M. Scott Peck observed that atheism seemed to be a natural state of a person's development as they moved from that childlike "magical thinking" to a more adult form of reasoning and ultimately, a deep, spiritual awareness.

At this stage of my life, the things beyond my life don't seem as important as the things in my life right now. I think there is a danger in becoming so fixated on deities and afterlives that we forget about the contributions we should be bringing to the hear and now.

I look forward to reading your series.

People believe what they need to believe. Believing in God is a great comfort yet it also
may blind a person to reality. It is all meaningless unless we care about and help people who are worse off than we are.

To Patrick:
I couldn't disagree more with your comment. You display a very closed-minded attitude toward religion: do you believe that everybody must believe and not question the existence of a Christian God and follow the rituals of the organized church to which they belong to "survive"? I can't believe the words "free thinking" have such a negative connotation for you!

Do you really believe that people that do not believe in God have nothing to provide to a conversation/debate about Faith? Then who should participate in a forum about faith? Only people that share the same opinions? I am interested in your idea of what a forum entitled "On Faith" should be like.

I consider myself an agnostic, but was raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools and church during all my childhood and youth (even after nobody else in my family did anymore, during my late teen years). I attended church for years trying to find that faith that I thought I needed. I wanted to believe, but I realized that I was too rational for religion and God, that only if I believe first I would be able to see God all around me. But I want to see God and evidence for it before I make that commitment. And that wasn't happening and hasn't happened so far. I do not attend church. I dislike organized religion (and I will, even if I become convinced that God exists). I would like to feel the presence of God, if there really is one. I understand how people of faith think because my interest in faith has made me curious about it and I love hearing people of faith describe their accounts. And I believe my contribution to a forum entitled "On Faith" is (at least) as valuable as yours because I think that people of faith can also learn from people that do not believe (but are open to religion). I think people like Sally should always be a part of a conversation about faith and I believe that she is more qualified to moderate this forum than somebody that doesn't consider the voice of people without that faith important. Understanding people that do not believe is also important to understand faith.

Thank you, and I hope this "criticism" is not taken as an attack by Patrick, but just as a constructive criticism, which is what it was intended to be.

I admire your candor. I often wonder why we tend to question God's existence most during human trials of illness, death or cruelty. Similar to Styron, should the question not be why does God allow this to happen, but why do we? Why do we not wonder about God when things are great? When our children are healthy and happy, or we enjoy success? Are we so virtuous that we deserve all the credit? Yes, as God is omnipotent, he allows disease to exist, but he has also given man the ability to mend a hole in a tiny heart, as well as compose a symphony and build a space shuttle. Perhaps discovering God may begin with seeing him in each other, as you may be now doing with your son. Yes, we can always think of Hitler, but why not think about Mother Teresa, too?

What a sad thing, to believe in only what can be seen and touched and heard. Do you suppose there's more than what's immediately around you? DO you believe in China, for example? You're not there, you can't see nor touch it....yet I doubt you're skeptical as to its existence.
There isn't a scientist in the world who will tell you that science can answer every question. Anyway, belief in science and a religious faith are not mutually exclusive. Suppose God made science possible. If so, both the Bible and my science textbooks are true (though not LITERALLY true, for the Bible).
Look, life resulted from one of two possibilities: dumb luck or divine intervention. Which, honestly, makes more sense?

"If the Earth were 5% closer or 2% farther from the sun, life would not exist.
If the Earth did not have a 23% tilt, life could only exist in a tiny strip of land between the Tropics."

These are almost certainly false. The thing you have to consider in these cases is the "anthropic principle". The simplest way to put it is: Of course it looks like the Earth was made for us, because we evolved to live on it. If it was diferent, we wouldn't be here to marvel at how it looks like it was designed for us. :) Do you find it amazing that fish are surrounded by water?

"If we did not have a moon, the Earth would have ceased to spin.
If we did not have a moon, the oceans would be overrun with toxic waste."

Huh? Why?

"When you look at the incredible design of the human eye, you cannot help but think that someone was behind it."

The human eye is actually terribly "designed". We all have a huge blind spot where the optic nerve connects to the back of the retina, and we have the light receptors *behind* the blood vessels, which is just silly. Other creatures have much better eyes than we do.

"I was questioned by a friend if I could cite a fact that proved particles to people evolution, or any way that elements could be formed from nothing. I spent FIVE MONTHS looking for the answer, and finally realized that evolution is religion in its purest form."

This is utterly wrong. The theory of evolution is supported by over 150 years of slow, painstaking research. It underlies almost everything about modern biology. If you want a good site to read up on it, go to http://www.talkorgins.org.

Dear Sally,

I think Quinn has a wise soul; one he comes through by his parents most likely.

I am a life-long Episcopalian and have always grappled with the concept of true Faith or Belief. How do you know when you really, really believe in God, without question? Or Jesus for that matter? The facts belie all reason, as do the the cruel inequities of life and the horrific things people do to each other, whether out of malice or neglect or, all too often, in the name of God. It is a little unnerving that, if God sent Jesus to offer His love to man and bring peace on earth, it hasn't been too effective a strategy over the past 2000-plus years.

Every once in a while I have a fleeting sense of "truth," like the snippets of a dream seconds before you fully wake up, but which slip away no matter hard you to try take them with you into consciousness. You know, an "aha" in a state of emotional confusion. The awe in witnessing one of the little miracles of someone else's faith. My surprise when I do the hard thing of forgiveness and it works. Those moments when one of my four children floors me with a new glimpse of who they are growing up to be. (Rather like Quinn's conversation with you, I suppose.)

These instances of revelation don't stay with me as such for long; they become observations, experiences, and memories. They never equate to certainty but collectively they keep the question open: If not God, than what? And, that other central question,"What Would Jesus Do?" If everyone really asked this and lived by the answer, the world would be much better off. Even if, in the end, the Golden Rule is just a brilliant bit of writing, it seems like pretty good counsel.

For lack of a better option I guess, I have come to view the question, not necessarily the answer, as the exercise of faith. I go to church regularly because I am sparked by others and simply couldn't tackle the question(s) on my own. I attend an Episcopal church that is very open to uncertainty and questioning. I think our mission statement says it best,

"We seek to grow in relationship with God and with each other, finding and offering hope in the world through God’s love. We are called to create a Christian community that welcomes and nurtures the doubters, seekers and believers; support each other in the spiritual journey to know and follow Jesus Christ; and to be a faithful presence in the world by example and service to others. We hold fast to the hope of a world made whole by the experience of God's love and invite all to share the quest through worship, ministry, fellowship, and learning."

This pretty much sums up what for me is likely to be life-long journey as a doubter, seeker, and, hopefully, believer, depending on the day.

I wish you luck on your journey. What a blessing that you can travel it, in part, with Quinn.

Kathy

Just a few comments:

1. Faith is the belief in the unseen
2. If God had forced all of us to do good and worship him we would be little more than slaves therfore we have freedom of choice.
3. If you beleive the Bible is the word of God then you know good works alone will not get you into heaven only a relationship with Jesus Christ who died for our sins can accomplish that.

Hi Sally,

All my life I've been a kind of free-range chicken; my parents are quite religious, but never imposed religious belief upon me.

I had an immensely happy childhood, my fondest memories of which were lazing with friends in the long summer days and marveling at the moon, stars & planets as an amateur astronomer.

Then came adolescence, and the monster within, awoke. I went completely off the rails. I became addicted to drugs and alcohol, was promiscuous and unconcerned about my future.
My parents went through real heartache watching me degenrate into a shell of my former self.

I became an atheist and would attack with my mother's faith, often reducing her to tears.
Whilst at university my behaviour & health declined further. It was clear to all, I was in serious trouble, but I carried on regardless.

Then one day, whilst on language training in Russia, an amazing thing happened. Whilst out walking I experienced what can only be described as an out-of-body experience; it was a beautiful, crisp, August morning and I came across some baroque gates inter-twinned with morning mist. Not only was it the most beautiful thing I had ever seen, but simultaneously I felt at complete peace- as if a huge weight had been lifted off my chest. It was a sense of peaceful elation, no drugs could possibly match. Anyways, I continued with my wicked ways, suppresing this mysterious event and not discussing it with anyone (even to this day) for fear of ridicule.

After graduating, my best-friend at university, died. It was a very rare congenital heart defect which had gone undetected. I was devastated, and started drinking very heavily, driving whilst intoxicated with drink and drugs, clearly it was my endgame.

Then, one day I woke up, and everything seemed clear and I felt comfortable with life. That day was 8 years ago. The day I gave up drink, drugs, everything. I never got 'the shakes' or withdrawl symptoms or temptation (it was if I'd woken up after a long nightmare). It baffled everybody, people felt uneasy in my presence, my friends called it a 'spiritual awakening', I'm not sure.

Since then I've converted to Deism (belief in an impersonal God) and respect all religious faiths.
Ironically, my sister (stunned by my new ways), asked "did you find God?", to which I replied " no, God found me!".

I thankyou for your time,

Sebastian.

Sort of surprising how supposedly intelligent folks cannot grow out of the supernatural God delusion. The other surprise is the amount of hypocrisy and denial practiced by folks who profess to be so "cultured" and God fearing. "Fairness" and truth are only practiced when in ones self interest. I refer to the glaring truths so diplomatically spoken by Jim Baker. Where were are vaunted leaders the last four years?

Asking if God cares about us is like asking if Shakespeare cared about Romeo and Juliet. Of course he cared about them, and created them with as much beauty and poetry as his talents would allow.

But they still had to die in the end.

I am glad to see the son has survived the "free thinking" parents.

Sally Quinn seems to be the last person that should be moderating something called "On Faith" since it is readily apparent she has none.

I also find it interesting that that both Ben Bradlee and Quinn claim to believe in God...yet apprently find neither the time nor need to attend any form of church services.....I guess they are still in the exploratory stages of belief.

This kind of public forum self-analysis...is a complete waste of time

The most enduring advantage that comes with an abiding faith in the American higher authority is the Ability to Capitalize words Whenever you Want to. That alone Makes It all Worth While.

When we want to do those things that are pleasing to us, we set aside God and what He would have us do and proceed to satisfy ourselves. But when others exercise the very same free will with consequences that directly affect us, we question where God is. Throughout history and in our every day lives, man's actions through His free will are what have resulted in tragedies and misfortunes. God gave man the free will to choose between what is right and what is wrong. He did not create us as robots who were programmed to do what He wants by default. But rather, in a very sacred romance between Creator and the Created, He allows us the choice of choosing Him and doing what is right and pleasing in His sight.All the violence and hate in our world today is a result of man's free will, not God's absence. The subject is however complicated and not one that can easily be debated in a small frame such as this, but for those interested in further exploration,there is a very good resource that you might want to check out, Ravi Zacharias and his Apologetics Ministry(www.rzim.org) that has indeed helped many who bear such questions.

Enjoyed your candor concerning your beliefs concerning God and I respect the way you dealt with offering your son the freedom to discover his own truth. It takes a great deal of courage to explore our truths and a great deal of faith in humanity to trust that each will find her/his way.
My belief is that the spirit in each of us is slowly taking us to an evolved earthly existence.
Very, very slowly and yet at a pace that we can now see in our history and feel in the changes of leaning more toward the spiritual instead of the religious.

Hi,
I am a non-believer and don't understand "organized" religion. "Most" religions and the followers are some how convinced that there is A god, that their god is THE god and only their religion the true path to god. All this without any proof? Why can't someone described in a book be just another human being (indeed a very good, loving and kind person) but not God? No one knows who really wrote the books and in what state.

Also, many people either blame their bad fortune on God or start believing in God when something fortunate/good happens in their life. So, it has more to do with convenience than anything else. Why can't things just happen in life for that's just how it is? Why does it have to have a higher purpose or meaning?

We waste so much time debating (in some cases fighting) and searching for Gods in books written centuries ago. Is it really that important? Does it really matter whether there is a God? Will it not suffice if our principle was to just "do good and be good" -- make a difference by helping another being in any way possible, even if that just means allowing an elderly woman ahead of you in the line at USPS (even when you are late) or on your way from your parking lot to the apartment offering to help your neighbor carry groceries from their car?
SR.

A sweet article but let’s deal with 5 matters from the text and comments.

1. Studying the Bible should fill you with great confusion. It’s full of contradictions and describes a very nasty God, and please don’t separate Jesus from the Trinity. God is basically a vicious megalomaniac
2. The natural state of the universe is not chaos. While we have reams of evidence to support and prove that the commentator who claims that only God brings chaos will have to rely of the only proof he has “Because I said so, it is”. In addition, if the commentator tries “Ah, but the science sees what only God allows”, try the thought that if the natural order where chaos, how did God exist in the first place (i.e. non-chaotic!)
3. How do you know you have chosen the right God and the right texts? Maybe your wavering, your times of lapse where due to choosing a false God or maybe your have chosen the wrong religious text. Many of my Hindi and Muslim friends would certainly think so.
4. To assert that the only way humans can develop and have a moral life through a supernatural force is patently wrong and sadly full of self loathing.
5. Finally, one of the most respected and historically important groups of people in human history, the founding fathers of the USA, had a strong tendency to atheism, partly because of the harm religiosity brings. Please read their writings, they are a revelation.

Sally

Great little commentary...can we know God? Can a grain of sand know a human? We who are mortal and finite...how can we pretend to speak for the infinite and eternal (my problem with all religions)? My brother once said "God is neutral about your life...God wants only your soul"...but how can we pretend to know even that?...it is all about FAITH..my life experience gives me FAITH which is not the same as belief. I believe your son is a good person based on what you wrote..I have FAITH that there is a reason he is that way.

bdoon

It's interesting that Quinn said that if you keep repeating God's name you will believe in him - it will be in your subconscious. Carl Jung's formulation was the reverse of this. He said that God is an archetype, meaning that everyone is neurologically hard-wired to perceive or believe in such a being. In other words, God is in your subconscious without your having to do anything. Of course the fact that you're hard-wired to believe has nothing to do with the question of whether a god-being actually exists. It could be that such a hard-wired belief conferred some evolutionary survival benefit - or that it's simply a result of genes somehow mixed getting mixed up.

Sally seems to suggest that the fact that she didn't believe in a god-being made her an atheist. Simple non-belief is not atheism, which requires an affirmive statement that in fact there is no god. It's not clear to me whether Sally's position makes her an agnostic or atheist, or whether she just has the neutral position of not having anything to say on the question of a god-being's existence.

If you want to see God, look at Christ Jesus. He is the Word made Flesh. Man is separated from God by sin, in a nutshell: unbelief. The Bible says all have sinned. To know that there is a God that would say, "Sally, step aside from your judgement, I will take your place." That is a true picture of a loving God that cares for you personally. This love is a gift to you, but not yours until you receive it! Seek Him, He is there! Recommended reading: The New Testament Gospel of John.

I am an atheist because there is no evidence of god(s). I'm not an agnostic--there are millions of things for which there is no evidence and I'm not agnostic about any of them. Blue elephants, for example. I am an atheist about blue elephants, not an agnostic.

It's intellectual integrity that has made me an atheist. In spite of thousands of years and millions of words and billions of people, no one has ever displayed even one iota of evidence for god.

I grew up Catholic. I believed there was a God, but I did not have a personal relationship or understand the relationship of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit in my life. I believe that if I had a stronger Christian upbringing I would have made different decisions in life and thus eliminated some of the hardship caused by sinful living. I left the church as a teenager. My father later joined a community bible teaching church. As I got older and the strains of life was too much for me alone to bear, my father would pray with me and I started going to church with him. My life changed forever. I learned of a good, caring, loving God that forgives and gives us strength to endure and hope through His promises. I wanted my children to experience a personal relationship with God from a very young age. My husband grew up Baptist. We are now AME because we found a church family that we feel comfortable with growing in Christ that happens to be AME. Its not the Religion association, it is the relationship (He is our friend, protector, provider). Like your son said, he will always be there for us.

Your essay and all the comments just show that belief in god (or God) is a purely emotional and subjective thing.

The very same event that can lead one person to deny the existence of god can have the totally opposite effect on another person. Or even the same person at a different point in her life.

I wish I had the gift (or curse?) of faith, but if there is a god, he/she/it gave me a rational mind that leads me to conclude, if I am to be honest to myself, that there is no way anyone can objectively prove the existence of God, god, a god.

The application of reason is indeed damaging to faith. No wonder Adam and Eve were cast out for eating from the tree of knowledge.

Now I can do what some people have told me: They believe, just in case there really is god, so they don't go to hell. But if then if there is god, and he/she/it is all-knowing as claimed by all the major religions, wouldn't god see into my insecerity and consign me to the eternals fires anyway?

Reconciling the existence of a loving God with human pain and suffering is, well, not really possible, is it? Minimally, it seems clear that if there is a God, She/He does not protect any of us from life. Sort of like alien space ships - not going to swoop down and rescue us from ourselves anytime soon, apparently!

We are all vulnerable. It is this vulnerability and our shared ultimate impermanence that defines our humanity - the one thing we all share.

If there is a message or a purpose to our existence, it is to understand that we are supposed to love our neighbor as ourselves because we ARE our neighbor! There is no Us and Them, which is what Dachau was about. There is only We. None of us is Chosen unless we are all Chosen. None of us is blessed unless we are all blessed.

Don't pray or even hope for miracles. Pray for the strength and courage to cope with the inadequacies and limitations of this humanity we all share, with all of its positive and negative potential, realized and not. Ask for guidance so that you can be a hopeful influence in the piece of the world that you occupy, and if you can't, then to at least not do any more harm.

I don't ask God "why?" when it comes to stopping the pain that we inflict on each other. This is our job, our collective responsibility, not God's. I did not ask God to spare my five year old nephew and his parents the implications of his mortality when he lay sick and dying. Sickness, death, and separation from everything that we cherish and hold dear are the rule of existence.

But cruelty to each other is not. Raising ourselves above other groups of people is not. Demonizing a culture becaue of their beliefs and practices is not. We choose those behaviors and beliefs and act accordingly. God does not perpetrate that - we do!

So hooray for your son! But what I REALLY like to hear about are the people who get angry and tired, or needy and desperate, and do or say something stupid, unethical or cruel - but take responsibility for it. And come back and try, really try to make amends and to be better, kinder people.

God, if there is one, cares not one bit about whether you believe and frankly, neither do I. Owning your bull-, taking full responsibility for your actions, and trying like hell to act with integrity and respect next time is the only thing that will ever really make a difference, the only thing that really matters to anyone, whether God is there or not.

Sally,

Quinn sounds like a great person. He has characteristics that will never grab headlines, but will garner true love and admiration.

God(?) bless you and Quinn.

Ed

Sally

I certainly hope while you are researching other religions and cultures, that you will look at the plan of salvation as it is understood and taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...
sometimes called the Mormons. You could go to LDS.org on the web and find that information as well as other items.

Love your comments.

Dear Sally Quinn,

A lovely and honest essay. I wrestle with the same things. I've turned away quite a bit from organized religion in recent years, but I feel happy knowing that I still love Jesus Christ. I was raised on him, have read about him, and thought about him, and marveled over the years at what he says in the Gospels. I do not understand GOD, and wonder why there is so much suffering and evil in the world, but I still find myself loving Jesus. However, I now struggle with wondering if I'm loving some version of a mere mortal from history or someone who was, indeed, divine and human. I'm hoping it's the latter, but we'll see where my brain and heart take me.
D

1) As my grandmother was dying I had the following dialogue with my grandfather, an orthodox jew. (I am not). Granfather is there anything I can do to aleviate the pain and the sadness in you? He answered: What the Lord gives the Lord takes. Blessed be the Lord. It was said with a very deep religious understanding and acceptance.

2) In reference to Dachau and believing in God I will quote the great american writer W. Styron (in Sophie's choice)
Q: And at Auschwitz, were was God?
A: Where was man?

Sally-

Thank you for creating a forum for spirit.

I believe, paradoxically, that the holy spark of the divine is in all of us and also outside of us in all things. As God is one, so is everything, at a very deep level, one. There is support for this knowledge in all spiritual traditions, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc., when practioners go deeper than anthropomorphic views of the divine. I would suggest that finding the answer to the reality of God, or any other term one chooses, is not found in intellectual debate but in spiritual practice that centers, witnesses, and opens to who we really are.

How do we talk about this to our children? Not very well. It takes growth from youthful egocentric and ethnocentric levels of consciousness to the universal awareness of oneness.

Thanks.

Jerry

Sally:

Tell your copy editor:

1) to be sure his or her coding gets scrubbed ("I wanted to have him christened ??baptized maybe better word??].")

and

2) that christened is obviously the better word: it emphasizes the fact that you, an erstwhile athiest, were considering having your son dedicated to god in the faith of your parents.

"Atheist" as comparable to "n*****"? I've never heard that one before (and would strongly disagree).

Supposing there is a god, he must be mighty cruel. Quoth Ivan Karamazov:

"One picture, only one more, because it's so curious, so characteristic, and I have only just read it in some collection of Russian antiquities. I've forgotten the name. I must look it up. It was in the darkest days of serfdom at the beginning of the century, and long live the Liberator of the People! There was in those days a general of aristocratic connections, the owner of great estates, one of those men -- somewhat exceptional, I believe, even then -- who, retiring from the service into a life of leisure, are convinced that they've earned absolute power over the lives of their subjects. There were such men then. So our general, settled on his property of two thousand souls, lives in pomp, and domineers over his poor neighbours as though they were dependents and buffoons. He has kennels of hundreds of hounds and nearly a hundred dog-boys -- all mounted, and in uniform. One day a serf-boy, a little child of eight, threw a stone in play and hurt the paw of the general's favourite hound. 'Why is my favourite dog lame?' He is told that the boy threw a stone that hurt the dog's paw. 'So you did it.' The general looked the child up and down. 'Take him.' He was taken -- taken from his mother and kept shut up all night. Early that morning the general comes out on horseback, with the hounds, his dependents, dog-boys, and huntsmen, all mounted around him in full hunting parade. The servants are summoned for their edification, and in front of them all stands the mother of the child. The child is brought from the lock-up. It's a gloomy, cold, foggy, autumn day, a capital day for hunting. The general orders the child to be undressed; the child is stripped naked. He shivers, numb with terror, not daring to cry.... 'Make him run,' commands the general. 'Run! run!' shout the dog-boys. The boy runs.... 'At him!' yells the general, and he sets the whole pack of hounds on the child. The hounds catch him, and tear him to pieces before his mother's eyes!... I believe the general was afterwards declared incapable of administering his estates. Well -- what did he deserve? To be shot? To be shot for the satisfaction of our moral feelings? Speak, Alyosha!

"To be shot," murmured Alyosha, lifting his eyes to Ivan with a pale, twisted smile.

"Bravo!" cried Ivan delighted. "If even you say so... You're a pretty monk! So there is a little devil sitting in your heart, Alyosha Karamazov!"

"What I said was absurd, but-"

"That's just the point, that 'but'!" cried Ivan. "Let me tell you, novice, that the absurd is only too necessary on earth. The world stands on absurdities, and perhaps nothing would have come to pass in it without them. We know what we know!"

"What do you know?"

"I understand nothing," Ivan went on, as though in delirium. "I don't want to understand anything now. I want to stick to the fact. I made up my mind long ago not to understand. If I try to understand anything, I shall be false to the fact, and I have determined to stick to the fact."

"Why are you trying me?" Alyosha cried, with sudden distress. "Will you say what you mean at last?"

"Of course, I will; that's what I've been leading up to. You are dear to me, I don't want to let you go, and I won't give you up to your Zossima."

Ivan for a minute was silent, his face became all at once very sad.

"Listen! I took the case of children only to make my case clearer. Of the other tears of humanity with which the earth is soaked from its crust to its centre, I will say nothing. I have narrowed my subject on purpose. I am a bug, and I recognise in all humility that I cannot understand why the world is arranged as it is. Men are themselves to blame, I suppose; they were given paradise, they wanted freedom, and stole fire from heaven, though they knew they would become unhappy, so there is no need to pity them. With my pitiful, earthly, Euclidian understanding, all I know is that there is suffering and that there are none guilty; that cause follows effect, simply and directly; that everything flows and finds its level -- but that's only Euclidian nonsense, I know that, and I can't consent to live by it! What comfort is it to me that there are none guilty and that cause follows effect simply and directly, and that I know it? -- I must have justice, or I will destroy myself. And not justice in some remote infinite time and space, but here on earth, and that I could see myself. I have believed in it. I want to see it, and if I am dead by then, let me rise again, for if it all happens without me, it will be too unfair. Surely I haven't suffered simply that I, my crimes and my sufferings, may manure the soil of the future harmony for somebody else. I want to see with my own eyes the hind lie down with the lion and the victim rise up and embrace his murderer. I want to be there when everyone suddenly understands what it has all been for. All the religions of the world are built on this longing, and I am a believer. But then there are the children, and what am I to do about them? That's a question I can't answer. For the hundredth time I repeat, there are numbers of questions, but I've only taken the children, because in their case what I mean is so unanswerably clear. Listen! If all must suffer to pay for the eternal harmony, what have children to do with it, tell me, please? It's beyond all comprehension why they should suffer, and why they should pay for the harmony. Why should they, too, furnish material to enrich the soil for the harmony of the future? I understand solidarity in sin among men. I understand solidarity in retribution, too; but there can be no such solidarity with children. And if it is really true that they must share responsibility for all their fathers' crimes, such a truth is not of this world and is beyond my comprehension. Some jester will say, perhaps, that the child would have grown up and have sinned, but you see he didn't grow up, he was torn to pieces by the dogs, at eight years old. Oh, Alyosha, I am not blaspheming! I understand, of course, what an upheaval of the universe it will be when everything in heaven and earth blends in one hymn of praise and everything that lives and has lived cries aloud: 'Thou art just, O Lord, for Thy ways are revealed.' When the mother embraces the fiend who threw her child to the dogs, and all three cry aloud with tears, 'Thou art just, O Lord!' then, of course, the crown of knowledge will be reached and all will be made clear. But what pulls me up here is that I can't accept that harmony. And while I am on earth, I make haste to take my own measures. You see, Alyosha, perhaps it really may happen that if I live to that moment, or rise again to see it, I, too, perhaps, may cry aloud with the rest, looking at the mother embracing the child's torturer, 'Thou art just, O Lord!' but I don't want to cry aloud then. While there is still time, I hasten to protect myself, and so I renounce the higher harmony altogether. It's not worth the tears of that one tortured child who beat itself on the breast with its little fist and prayed in its stinking outhouse, with its unexpiated tears to 'dear, kind God'! It's not worth it, because those tears are unatoned for. They must be atoned for, or there can be no harmony. But how? How are you going to atone for them? Is it possible? By their being avenged? But what do I care for avenging them? What do I care for a hell for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want to embrace. I don't want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not worth such a price. I don't want the mother to embrace the oppressor who threw her son to the dogs! She dare not forgive him! Let her forgive him for herself, if she will, let her forgive the torturer for the immeasurable suffering of her mother's heart. But the sufferings of her tortured child she has no right to forgive; she dare not forgive the torturer, even if the child were to forgive him! And if that is so, if they dare not forgive, what becomes of harmony? Is there in the whole world a being who would have the right to forgive and could forgive? I don't want harmony. From love for humanity I don't want it. I would rather be left with the unavenged suffering. I would rather remain with my unavenged suffering and unsatisfied indignation, even if I were wrong. Besides, too high a price is asked for harmony; it's beyond our means to pay so much to enter on it. And so I hasten to give back my entrance ticket, and if I am an honest man I am bound to give it back as soon as possible. And that I am doing. It's not God that I don't accept, Alyosha, only I most respectfully return him the ticket."

Sally – I think you speak for many when you say, “I might not have been religious, but I loved ritual.”

I suspect that ritual, tradition and community are essential human needs, not religion or some “God gene.” Organized religion just offers a convenient place to find those things wrapped in a neat bundle. I also suspect that, like me, a lot of people go to church for the ritual, tradition and community, while largely tuning out the beliefs and dogma.

Some Christian music, written by renaissance masters, is exquisitely beautiful. Who cares about the words (though anything sounds good in Latin) – the music is transcendent! And the vestments in the Episcopal and Catholic church are to die for.

If it weren’t for the cannibalistic aspects of communion, I could participate in that ritual, walking up together to share a simple meal. Why must we eat someone’s body and drink his blood – even metaphorically?

My hope is that someday soon, we can maintain all the warmth of the ritual, tradition and community currently offered by organized religion, without pretending to ourselves or others about what we believe.

Places like this forum will help. Thanks

Jim Reeves....Amen brother. By Gods Grace we have been saved.Through Faith alone in Christ alone.Give God all the Praise and glory He Deserves.

Sally Quinn:

I am a believer and have given my life to Jesus as is commanded in the bible.

There are times that I wonder, not many times, if there is really a God, yet I look around at all the splender of this earth as well as the things that have happened in my life in the lives of other people and can't help but come back to the conclusion that there is a God and his Son Jesus died on the cross for mine and your sins.

To many people it is hard to explain how and why I feel as I do. I can only relate that it gives me peace of mind. At times I am sliding very seriously in the wrong direction but God, in his own way has a way of pulling me back to his direction.

I do hope and Pray that you can come to the same conclusions that I have, both you and your son who seems wise beyond his young years.

Jim Reeves.

What a gift to give your child, the freedom of choice, the freedom to discover in depth who he is, because as a mother you did not get in the way of his inner growth. That is what I love most about my mother, she allowed me the space for self-discovery, and in turn learned more about herself because of it.

A very good article filled with an interesting history and an open-minded mindset.

For the first ~23 years of my life I was certain there was a major deity or deities who were in some sort of control over the universe.

You have to know by looking at the intricate and perfect design of the solar system in which we live.

If the Earth were 5% closer or 2% farther from the sun, life would not exist.
If the Earth did not have a 23% tilt, life could only exist in a tiny strip of land between the Tropics.
If we did not have a moon, the Earth would have ceased to spin.
If we did not have a moon, the oceans would be overrun with toxic waste.
When you look at the incredible design of the human eye, you cannot help but think that someone was behind it.
If a child is born without a corpus collosum (or it is cut), their brain will learn to deal without it. That is an incredibly designed brain.

I have always thought it was absolutely STUPID to say there was no driving force behind the design in the universe, especially since if I leave something in the elements, it will rust and/or go away. The universe tends towards disorder, and amidst it, there is incredible order that supports the human race.

Until I was ~23, I also KNEW the Bible was wrong. I could disprove it in the first sentence of the first book. I was brainwashed into the religion of evolution. scientists lied to me, teachers perpetuated the rumor, they told me because a big dog can produce a little dog that a fish could become a mammal. It was an extremely cleverly orchestrated brainwashing technique, and the #1 reason I believe in the Devil.

I was questioned by a friend if I could cite a fact that proved particles to people evolution, or any way that elements could be formed from nothing. I spent FIVE MONTHS looking for the answer, and finally realized that evolution is religion in its purest form. It takes blind faith, absolute trust in man, and complete lack of thought.

If we didn't evolve, how did we get here? The Bible has the only definitive account, and I decided to see if there were more scientific facts for it than the religion of evolution I had previously been following. Amazingly, there are hundreds of scientific facts that support the Bible, written thousands of years before science learned about them.

I found out just why Jesus had to die for the world, but didn't feel myself a sinner...then I was bar hopping in Santander, Spain, and ended up walking into something that was a little more than a bar; at first I thought it was a strip club, but then I realized none of the girls were stripping or dancing, but that they were already naked...I won't say what happened, except I will admit that getting Saved cost me 50-Euro. Just when I was contemplating something terrible, I realized just how deceitful my heart was, fell on my face before God, and received the gift of ever lasting life from Jesus Christ.

It was a long and interesting trip from Taoist to Christian, but when I look back, I see a long line of zigzags, loop-d-loops, and u-turns, only to realize that all along God was ushering me from point-a to point-b. The fact that God was so wonderful and caring to save an absolute wretch like me has caused me to devote my life solely to Him.

It is a great comfort in such a mixed up and crazy world to be able to stand with my back to the measurement of righteousness. Humans have proven over 6,600 years that they cannot derive their own morals, and only when the law of God is obeyed is man truly happy. It is easy to see death in the world, and think, "Humans are good, the fact that there is bad in the world disproves a loving God." but when viewed in context, Humans are NOT good, that they are responsible for all the bad in the world, and that God loves us anyways, then it is easy to believe in the one true Living God.

Dear Sally,
Thank you for this beautiful, moving and meaningful essay.

Along with the great thinker Martin Buber, I believe that G-d can be found most in the context of loving and caring relationships between people. With Rabbi Harold Kushner, I believe that G-d "speaks" most through those who bring goodness and healing into the world. Perhaps the divine sparks could be found in those in that hospital in Tokyo and all those who helped your son survive and apparently thrive.
And perhaps when you look at your son, you, in fact see a touch of the divine reality.
Eliott

Dear Sally,

I am blessed to have a special relationship with Christ. I was always extremely cautious about "organized" religion in the past.

Recently, however, I have found a small Bible study group of like minded Christians that has very much helped my spiritual growth.

I highly recommend that you and your son find a strong Bible based study group (small goup) that you can grow with in Christ.

God Bless you and your family,

Joe

I just read your article. I have attended church off and on since childhood. At times my belief in God has wained and other times has been robust. 2006 has been a difficult year. My son was in Iraq and his tour was almost up. Through a series of events he almost took his own life (he is now safe at home and with his children.) After almost 38 years of marriage my husband wanted a divorce (because of another woman). Having struggled with both issues my belief in God has resurface and now in process returning to church. Thanks for sharing.

Very nice article. Thanks for sharing it.