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A Real Compassionate Conservative
Jerry Falwell was one of the giant figures who towered over the 20th-Century American church. While most people knew him as the founder of the Moral Majority, the face of the Religious Right, and by some of his more controversial statements, many saw only his opponent’s caricature of the real man.
The story was never told about his compassionate heart, his gentle spirit, his enormous sense of humor, and the millions he invested in helping the underprivileged. Jerry founded the Elim Home for alcoholics, the Center for tutoring inner city children, the Hope Aglow ministry to prisoners, Liberty Godparent Home for unwed mothers, and literally dozens of other compassion projects to help the poor, the sick, and others in desperate need.
I believe Jerry Falwell’s primary legacy will not be his political leadership, but the church he pastored for 50 years; the university he founded that has produced two generations of leaders; the millions who heard him preach the Good News; the innovations in ministry he introduced; and the thousands of young pastors, like myself, whom he constantly encouraged, even when we did it differently.
By
Rick Warren
|
May 16, 2007; 10:27 AM ET
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Posted by: Anonymous | December 16, 2007 10:00 AM
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Rev. Jerry Falwell was a man from God. He told it like it was. Sometimes we need to tell the truth and i know the tryth hurts.
Sometime Rev. Jerry Falwell spoken when it was not the right times.
Rev. Jerry Falwell is in a better place now.
Rev. Jerry Falwell tell my mother I love her, and miss her.
Posted by: Eddie | October 15, 2007 1:45 PM
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Rev. Jerry Falwell was a man from God. He told it like it was. Sometimes we need to tell the truth and i know the tryth hurts.
Sometime Rev. Jerry Falwell spoken when it was not the right times.
Rev. Jerry Falwell is in a better place now.
Rev. Jerry Falwell tell my mother I love her, and miss her.
Posted by: Eddie | October 15, 2007 1:45 PM
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Rev. Jerry Falwell was a man from God. He told it like it was. Sometimes we need to tell the truth and i know the tryth hurts.
Sometime Rev. Jerry Falwell spoken when it was not the right times.
Rev. Jerry Falwell is in a better place now.
Rev. Jerry Falwell tell my mother I love her, and miss her.
Posted by: Eddie | October 15, 2007 1:44 PM
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I'm surprised to see the comments from many quarters complaining about Rev. Rick's take on faith.
We have such a wonderful man of God in the form of Pastor Rick Warren whom God has been using to change many lives around the world.
I find that there are jealous bunch of guys out there, not trying to appreciate some positive development in our world through some men but will rant on them if what they say is against them. And US is a democratic country, if the freedom they have is not utilized properly, we can only expect a decaying generations to come up with strange voices that can be heard from anywhere in the world through electronic media.
Anyways, those who are really against Rick are those unbelievers even if they are Christians. That's my take.
Posted by: Pastor Bei | July 16, 2007 5:43 AM
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nothing you can do will make Him love you less.
Sin is what separates us from God.
Evaluate
Seek Truth
By the way, Religion is an awfully ugly term that creates many negative images.
Religion sucks....
Now relationship ----thats what its about.
Until you've lost a loved one and literally felt the arms of Jesus surrounding you so you can fall to sleep, until you've felt a peace like no other, until you have joy that makes you want to jump out of bed in the morning - you havevn't experienced Jesus.
Its not complicated. The fact is christianity is only tolerated in this country. Reprobate minds have their views. Anything else will be wrong so its really pointless to argue until Jesus prepairs that heart. My heart aches for the reality that few will actually make it.
My prayer is that those who are left behind somehow realize the truth. Wow. Its sobering to get on here and come to grips with how we, as christians, have failed miserably to love, respect, and bring a positive vantage point to the word -christian. its sickening actually.
Posted by: mdl | June 1, 2007 2:46 AM
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Right on, Rick!
Jerry was one of a kind. He was led my God and Jesus to preach the Bible the way it was written. There are still many poor souls out there who need to know God's love for them.
Posted by: jim | May 29, 2007 3:04 PM
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Rick Warren is part of a new generation of flat-Earth, homophobic religionists--a generation that seeks to soft-peddle the ignorance of Christian fundamentalism in a new, attractive package. I ain't buying it.
And what's truely pathetic is the fact that so many of the "Wise Men" in the MSN (Tim Russert comes to mind) give the likes of Mr. Warren a platform. Of course there's really no surprise there: these guys are part of a self-congratulatory generation of ignoramuses whose own homophobia has been regularly revealed by their previous chummy manner with the likes of Falwell. What's nice to know is that when the generation of these old farts dies off, there will be no one to replace them. Good riddance to old farts!
Posted by: Dan | May 27, 2007 2:35 PM
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Daniel (either of you):
One of you claim that I have misunderstood you and read you incorrectly.
Is it possible you have done the same to Falwell?
Posted by: Thales | May 24, 2007 10:50 AM
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Daniel (both of you):
Where have I expressed anger?
I have asked questions. I have probed for more information. I have looked for reasonable defenses.
I have found none.
I am not angry, but I am sad that discourse is not possible. If I have misunderstood you, then maybe we are speaking two very different languages.
Sigh.
Posted by: Thales | May 24, 2007 10:48 AM
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Oh and one more thing...
there is at least one other guy named "Daniel" posting here, who is not me. So mabye all of the Daniel comments that you are angry at did not come form me.
Posted by: Daniel | May 23, 2007 5:40 PM
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You're a pretty hostile guy. I am not against relgion. That is just how you are "reading" me which is incorrect.
Posted by: Daniel | May 23, 2007 5:37 PM
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Thanks for your diagnosis, Dr. Daniel, but I think "paranoia" is not my problem. I could easily say the same thing about you--your incessant need to respond on here borders on an obsessive compulsion to be right and to be recognized. Certainly a need for a therapist, to use your logic.
Besides, you've identified and diagnosed me without knowing me. Your implication that religious fanaticism is a mental illness certainly contains some claim that an overly serious pursuit of the knowledge of the Bible is a negative thing, does it not?
By the way, are you a psychologist? Have you personally discussed these issues with Jerry Falwell or every conservative fundamentalist Christian? If not, then is it not possible that your observation is a bit skewed?
I am a rationalist by nature, and a philosopher by trade. If I am paranoid, it is only in the area of a misappropriation of Reason by those who refuse to use it. I have made no religious claim, though you seem to think I have. I think many people vilify Jerry Falwell without knowing him, and I think that this kind of approach is both irrational and unkind. If I am wrong, then I will gladly be corrected. But please use reason not personal attacks.
Posted by: Thales | May 23, 2007 2:55 PM
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To Thales
Just checking back. I suggested that relgious fanaticism is interconnected with mental illness. Maybe I did not say it correctly.
I will try again: it is my observation and belief that religious fantacism is a psychological state which is pathological, in nature. I never said anything against religion or the Bible. I never said the Bible is wrong. That is just your paranoia, filling in the blanks, with intentions that I have never expressed.
I am sorry that you have misunderstood my meaning. People who are mentally ill should get treatment for their illness from doctors; they should not be raised up as wise religous authorities.
Posted by: Daniel | May 23, 2007 11:45 AM
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Once more into the brink:
Daniel, you said:
"Religious fanatacism is a symptom of mental illness. I do not believe that this statement says anything bad about the Bible, about Jesus Christ, about God, about church, about the nature of the soul or of Heaven."
You have not proven the first sentence. You have merely asserted it. An ounce of evidence is worth a pound of assertion. You are attacking people based on your bias against religion, not based on any evidence you have in hand. Your experience with your brother only proves that his actions were deemed incoherent and that he had some mental illness. Does it prove that all religious fanatics are similarly ill? Not really. One could argue that your attempts to prove religious fanaticism is a mental illness may exhibit a form of mental illness as well. It is certainly an obsession that appears similar to fanaticism. Maybe we should all do some self-reflection, no? Also, I have not quoted a single passage of holy writ, yet you have not answered my questions. Should I respond as you have to others? For example, you responded:
"If anyone is offended at this observation, that insanity and religious mainia are interconnected, then you need to examine within yourself, why you are offended, and quit picking on me."
So, if you are offended by my observation, will a similar response from me cause you to stop picking on others?
You also said:
"What if a Moslem quoted from the Koran to prove his arguments, and just assumed that he was right, because the Koran is always right, and anyone who didn't already know that is somehow an inferior person?"
I have to ask--do you assume that your statements about religious texts and these forums are right? If so, how do your statements differ from someone quoting the Bible or the Koran? You presume your rightness, you have not shown it logically or empirically. If you assume your own rightness, why is it bad for someone else to do the same? Or are they wrong simply because they disagree with you? Finally, in an attempt at unity and peace, you stated:
"Conservative Fundamentalist Christians demand respect from everyone; they demand it flamboyantly, but they do not give an ounce of resepect to anyone else. That is the point of this forum, that Jerry Falwell was not a good Christian, and he was not a good man."
Have you actually met every Conservative Fundamentalist Christian in the world? If not, how can you make this generalization? Did you ever meet Jerry Falwell? How then do you know your statement to be true. You assume much, yet you assail others for assuming things.
Again, your logic eats at itself. If the Bible is wrong, prove it. Oh, and how will you prove that Jerry Falwell was not a good Christian? Will you refer to Scripture? If so, will you presume that your interpretation is right?
Well, I have said enough. It seems to me that collegial discussion is not possible in our culture, and that saddens me.
Posted by: Thales | May 21, 2007 12:28 PM
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I have patiently, and we deep respect, read each of these posted comments. First let me thank the esteemed Ric Warren for his positive comments concerning the life of Dr. Jerry Falwell.
Allow me to focus us onto a single entity of Falwell's activities, that of Liberty University. True he did a great deal of good with his homes for alcoholics and unwed mothers. He did a great deal of good through his church and his public statements weren't always the best. I think that qualifies him as being human. Yet. I believe the farthest reaching efects will be felt through his university.
His efforts through the church will definitely effect the local community but his efforts through the university will effect communites from the Pacific to the Atlantic. esterday some 3500 people graduated from Liberty University. These people will go back to their communites taking the values and abilities they learned while in Lynchburg with them. As these people go into the clergy, education, business and the military Jerry's values will multiply. These people will reach others and pass on those values to them.
Many years down the road there will be many well adjusted and mature couples and families that will trace their life's values and standards to Liberty University.
Posted by: John | May 20, 2007 7:30 PM
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Doug, Khomeini never killed anyone with his hands either. His words and leadership however did quite a lot of damage to a proud society. Falwell's words and leadership do damage as well. Imagine him or his kind in power. They would spill blood worse than a muslim zealot could ever dream of.
You are correct regarding Bin Laden. But I was also talking about those wahabbi imams that justified the tsunami in much the same way the Falwells and Robertsons justified Katrina and 9/11. They all said it was god's reaction to what they perceived to be immoral behavior.
Regarding you flexing your intellectual muscle, I'm glad to hear that you have read up on things other than that fictional book. May I recommend Voltaire to you. He really does make very good sense. I would also recommend a very recent book written by Christopher Hitchens: God is not Great. It is an excellent read. I literally could not put it down.
As I have stated here before, I myself believe in GOD. But found it a fascinating read and re-confirmation that organizaed religion does truly shame GOD.
Posted by: Robert | May 17, 2007 6:06 PM
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I have recently discovered these religious forums. I have been expressing my opinions. It feels very good. All my life, I have been bullied by the Conservative Christian types. Now it feels so good to resist, and to say something back. I won't come back to this particular forum anymore. It is has wound down and is done. I am not interested in continuing this pissing match with Doug or with anyone else.
Posted by: Daniel | May 17, 2007 4:20 PM
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To: Mr. Mark
That is my whole point. It is not a "logical" discussion if all your proofs depend on cobbled-together quotes from the Bible, which can be pulled randomly, strung together any which way, and which most of the people in the conversation either are not familiar with, do not understand, or just plain on principle, do not believe. If you want to have a logical argument, then be logical. If you want to have a Bible study, in which you analyse line by line, the Bible, and what it all could mean, then join with a group of like-minded people and pursue that. Otherwise, this Bible-quoting is rude at best, but is often a bad and scary sign.
Posted by: Daniel | May 17, 2007 4:10 PM
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You don't get anything I have been saying, do you? When the police arrested my brother, and yes, that is what they did, they put handcuffs on him and arrested him, he was, all the while, seeking to justify his religious babbling and why his quotes from the Bible really made alot of sense, and how it was everybody else who was crazy and not him. But that didn't change anything; they still took him away.
Posted by: Daniel | May 17, 2007 4:00 PM
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Doug writes:
"You people are absolutely amazing. Mr Mark, because I do not believe in evolution you will refuse to engage me in a logical discussion."
Sorry, Doug, but your statement above says it all. You believe in the supernatural and don't believe in evolution, yet you want to have a logical discussion.
How is that possible?
Again - I'm sorry, but there's no point. You're asking for the illogical to be treated logically and the logical to be ignored, and that's impossible, at least for me.
Posted by: Mr Mark | May 17, 2007 3:57 PM
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You people are absolutely amazing. Mr Mark, because I do not believe in evolution you will refuse to engage me in a logical discussion.
Daniel, I quoted Jesus saying that some don't believe His words because they are not His SHEEP and some do because they are His SHEEP in response to someone calling me a sheep. To that you say that I pulled a reference out of thin air. How is it that you do not see the correlation between the two?
I am glad that my other unbelieving friends that I have great theological discussions and debates with are not as petty and close-minded as you.
Posted by: Doug | May 17, 2007 3:50 PM
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Robert said, "It would've at least given the impression that you are well-rounded and to some degree objective in your analysis."
You mean well-rounded as in I have read up on the question of how the speed of light may slow down when approaching the event horizon of the edge of the universe? Or are you talking more about understanding music theory? Perhaps you would like to discuss childhood development and educational theory? Or maybe even Schliermacher and other philosophers?
Or maybe you would like to discuss the Koran or the Upanishads or the Book of Mormon or the Watchtower, all of which I have read as well.
I am not trying to toot my own horn, but you don't know me at all, so how can determine from some of my education background that I am not well-rounded?
Posted by: Doug | May 17, 2007 3:44 PM
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You quoted to us:
"John 10:24-28 - Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
So what has your quote proved? You have pulled it out of thin air, with no context, with no agreement from anyone on its relevance or credibility. It is just your babble.
My brother was committed to the state mental hospital for babbling scriptures from the Bible in public places. A magistrate, meaning a judge, signed the warrant to seize him and have him committed against his will. There he stayed about 45 days, until they could get his "Jesus mania" under control, so that he could come back out into society, without scaring people.
So I think people who dabble in this kind of theology should think, how it can be a trap into the darker side of man, and how, even if you know that you are sane, maybe other people might not be so sure, and would be afraid of you.
You think that I am a mean person for bringing this stuff up. I and my family suffered through this. This Jesus-mania, is a terrible suffering for the sick person and the sick person's family. I would expect extreme reaction of anger. I am used to it.
Posted by: Daniel | May 17, 2007 3:42 PM
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Dear Doug -
Thanks for the answer.
There's no point in having any type of discussion with you. I know where the conversation is heading, as do you. I've had those conversations here and they are singularly unproductive (do a little bit of surfing around this site if you care to read my positions).
We are like prisoners who have been incarcerated together for so long that when we tell each other jokes, we need say only, "Joke Number 42," to get a laugh (of course, you still have to tell the joke correctly to get the laugh). So it is with my basing my life in reality and you basing yours in the fantastic. We know the punchlines before the joke has even been uttered, so what's the point?
Enjoy the site, though. There are anti-theists and atheists here who still have a thread or so of patience and will be more than happy to engage you in discussion. At this point, I'm not one of them. Sorry.
Take care.
Posted by: Mr Mark | May 17, 2007 3:35 PM
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Robert, degrees mean absolutely nothing. You can get a degree on the internet.
And I am a sheep.
John 10:24-28 - Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Posted by: Doug | May 17, 2007 3:27 PM
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Robert said, "The only difference between Falwell and the other 2 are hygeine, close shave, and expensive suits, not too mention 150 pounds of girth."
Yeah, that and the fact that Falwell never killed anyone nor suggested that anyone should be killed. But what is that among fundamentalists?
Posted by: Doug | May 17, 2007 3:25 PM
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One additional comment that I wanted to make. I don't think much of someone who has received 2 master's degree in Divinity and Biblical Studies.
One Master's degree in biblical studies and the other in a field of sciences would have impressed me much more. It would've at least given the impression that you are well-rounded and to some degree objective in your analysis.
But 2 degrees in theology says a whole lot about you. And what is says is that you are a SHEEP.
Posted by: Robert | May 17, 2007 3:22 PM
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Mr Mark,
I take a literal view of Genesis 1. I am a creationist. I have no doubt that evolution occurs on a micro level. But I have yet to see any evidence that would convince me that evolution occurs on a macro level. There simply is no evidence that one species evolves into another.
I do not believe in a "big bang." I do not believe in natural selection. I believe in a sovereign Creator who works all things after the counsel of His will.
Posted by: Doug | May 17, 2007 3:18 PM
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Organized religion shames GOD. People like Falwell were true fundamentalist Christians, and as such were no different that Ayatollah Khomeini or a Saudi Salafist we all know is hiding somewhere in a cave. The only difference between Falwell and the other 2 are hygeine, close shave, and expensive suits, not too mention 150 pounds of girth.
I only thank the fathers of our country for not allowing religion into our politics. But I do fear that slowly we may lose this battle as this administration is the first to truly be beholden to these crackpots.
Falwell made some crazy comments and threats. You put him in power and he would be no different than a pope commanding all good christians to do their duty and liberate the holy land from the infidels.
Posted by: Robert | May 17, 2007 3:15 PM
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Doug writes:
"Mr Mark,
I am not sure if you are sincerely asking and want an honest answer or if you are just trying to be difficult.
For the record, I have read the Bible through every year for the last 7 years. I have studied Koine Greek (language of NT) and Ancient Hebrew (language of OT). I have two Master's degrees, one in Biblical Studies and one in Divinity."
Thanks for the response.
Glad to see yu've earned two masters.
My first question to you:
do you believe in evolution (ie: natural selection on a micro/macro basis, whatever)? Thanks in adavnce for your response.
Posted by: Mr Mark | May 17, 2007 2:52 PM
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I am not opposed to the Bible. I just find it a little rude to quote from it casually in public to prove arguments. This practice does not really prove anything, but just makes other people feel bad. That is what you do. I am a Christian too, but you assume that I am not because I disagree with you. So, why are the final authority on everything Christian? You are not.
I will ask my question again, with more qualitifcations, so that you must answer it more truthfully: What if a Moslum appeared on THIS forum and proved all of his points by quoting from the Koran? Wouldn't you think he was just some crackpot? Well, that is how you appear to alot of people. (I am just trying to get you to look at things from someone else's point of view).
Posted by: Daniel | May 17, 2007 2:25 PM
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OK, Daniel, one more response:
If a Muslim quoted from the Koran on a forum about Muslim issues, I would expect that.
I would think that a person opposed to the Bible on a RELIGIOUS forum that has to do with CHRISTIANITY who keeps whining because others quote from the Bible is the one who is insane. Especially one who now is complaining that others are attacking him after he has spent post after post attacking others.
This was my last (really!) response to you, so enjoy tearing me apart again.
Posted by: Doug | May 17, 2007 2:13 PM
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Religious fanatacism is a symptom of mental illness. I do not believe that this statement says anything bad about the Bible, about Jesus Christ, about God, about church, about the nature of the soul or of Heaven.
If anyone is offended at this observation, that insanity and religious mainia are interconnected, then you need to examine within yourself, why you are offended, and quit picking on me.
Quoting religious text in a public forum to prove your point is absurd. I made that observation a few comments back, and this simple observation and comment has drawn all of these pissy replies.
What if a Moslem quoted from the Koran to prove his arguments, and just assumed that he was right, because the Koran is always right, and anyone who didn't already know that is somehow an inferior person?
Please everyone, and anyone, don't attack me, until you have answered this question. All I am asking for is just a little basic respect.
Conservative Fundamentalist Christians demand respect from everyone; they demand it flamboyantly, but they do not give an ounce of resepect to anyone else. That is the point of this forum, that Jerry Falwell was not a good Christian, and he was not a good man.
Posted by: Daniel | May 17, 2007 2:01 PM
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Mr Mark,
I am not sure if you are sincerely asking and want an honest answer or if you are just trying to be difficult.
For the record, I have read the Bible through every year for the last 7 years. I have studied Koine Greek (language of NT) and Ancient Hebrew (language of OT). I have two Master's degrees, one in Biblical Studies and one in Divinity.
For all of this, I fail miserably to completely live as I should. That is because I am, just like everyone else, a sinner in need of the grace of God, which He offers through the substitutionary death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ.
Having trusted in Christ alone for reconciliation with God, I try to live according to all I read in His Word. I will never be perfect until I see Him in heaven, but I am called to be holy as He is holy.
Posted by: Doug | May 17, 2007 1:12 PM
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Doug writes:
"Daniel, I don't wish you would go away. I wish you would accept that some people believe the Bible to be true and try to live by it."
Do you try to live by it, ALL of it? Or do you cherry pick the parts you like and try to live on half the story?
Posted by: Mr Mark | May 17, 2007 12:50 PM
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Daniel:
You said: "I think it is socially maladjusted for you to assume that everyone else believes like you do, and if they do not, then they need some good Bible-quotin' from you to fix them up. I dont aplogize."
Is it not, by implication, "socially maladjusted" to think that if someone believes the Bible or disagrees with you, then they need some good sarcasm from you to fix them up?
Your logic eats at itself. You expect others to agree with you while at the same time you tell your opponents that if they have a similar approach they are "socially maladjusted." I'm beginning to think coherent discussion in a rational manner is not possible. If the Bible is wrong, prove it. If the Bible is right, prove it. If you can't, quit using personal attacks as a means to make your point.
Geesh, what are they teaching in schools these days?
Hint: Certainly not logic or reasonable debate!
Posted by: Thales | May 17, 2007 12:49 PM
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Last post to Daniel...
And Daniel, I think it is socially maladjusted for you to assume that no one else believes like me, and if they do, to castigate them (and me) for telling you about their belief system directly from the source of their belief system.
Non-apology accepted.
Posted by: Doug | May 17, 2007 12:49 PM
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Falwell was a nice guy, Mussolini got the trains to run on time and Hitler loved animals.
Posted by: Mr Mark | May 17, 2007 12:47 PM
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I know that some people believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. But most people do not. Even most Christians do not. Many people who quote from the Bible, cherry pick, verses and cobble together their own personal religous points of view, and then trumpet them around publically to demonstrate superiority over others. Why would I wish to engage you in that? I think it is socially maladjusted for you to assume that everyone else believes like you do, and if they do not, then they need some good Bible-quotin' from you to fix them up. I dont aplogize.
Posted by: Daniel | May 17, 2007 12:32 PM
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Doug:
Daniel is intentionally posting derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages. Ignore his posts and he will vanish.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 17, 2007 12:17 PM
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Daniel, I don't wish you would go away. I wish you would accept that some people believe the Bible to be true and try to live by it.
For you not to accept it is intolerant and bigoted. If you continue to respond in hate-filled posts rather than sincere, thought-proving ones, for the sake of civility, I will choose to no longer engage you in conversation.
Posted by: Doug | May 17, 2007 12:15 PM
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Stop wishing that I would go away, and go see a shrink. You need it bad.
Posted by: Daniel | May 17, 2007 11:50 AM
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or go to another forum that is not written by a conservative Bible-believing Christian about another conservative Bible-believing Christian.
Posted by: doug | May 17, 2007 11:35 AM
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Daniel,
Once again, this is a religious forum originally written by a conservative, Bible-believing Christian about another conservative, Bible-believing Christian. If you don't like quotations from the Bible, don't read my posts.
Posted by: Doug | May 17, 2007 11:33 AM
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Hey Doug:
You quoted the Bible:
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 "or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 "For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD"
Dear old foolish, silly, crazy, superstitious Doug:
I have good news for you, in case you hadn't heard. There ain't no witches or soothsayers, or socerer's; there ain't no conjurers or mediums or spiritists who call upon the dead. In the Wizard of Oz, they sang "ding dong the wicked witch is dead" but it was only play acting. The wicked witch was only an actress, Margaret Hamilton. So relax. There are no witches now, and there never were any, ever.
Posted by: Daniel | May 17, 2007 11:08 AM
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Anyone quoting religeous text in a public place needs to be seeing a shrink. Don't get mad at me for noticing you're nuts. I'm sure you have been quite a problem for your family and friends for a long time.
Posted by: Daniel | May 17, 2007 11:02 AM
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E Favorite said (speaking of Wiccans), "I think Jesus, if he ever existed, would be proud of them. I certainly cannot say that about conservative Christians."
I doubt this very seriously. Jesus was the consummate Law-keeper. He was zealous for the Mosaic Law, or the Law of God. The Mosaic Law forbade witchcraft of any kind and pagan idolatry. Therefore Jesus would have definitely opposed any form of witchcraft or paganism, including Wicca.
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 "or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 "For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD"
Posted by: Doug | May 17, 2007 10:50 AM
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E Favorite, I am unaware of any popular Christian leader who believes that true Old Testament saints are NOT in heaven. The teaching of all major denominations that I know is that Old Testament saints receive the same blessings in the afterlife as New Testament saints.
As for Scriptural references, Romans 4:3 quotes Genesis 15 as proof of Abraham's justification by faith. Romans 4:6-8 describes David having righteousness imputed to him and his sin forgiven. This is given in support of Paul's discussion of New Testament salvation, or the gospel of Christ (see Romans 1:16). Hebrews 11 describes the faith of a bunch of Old Testament witnesses and then chapter 12 says that we are "surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses." This would indicate that they are of the same faith as we are.
Jesus described Abraham as comforting Lazarus, a poor man, in a place separate from hell. He also had an argument with the Saducees over the nature of the resurrection.
The only question I could foresee is whether or not OT saints are in some kind of holding area awaiting the resurrection. But, most popular Christian leaders would point to Paul's statement that to be "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" as at least saying that our spirits go to be with the Lord while awaiting the resurrection. The same would be true of Old Testament saints.
Christianity is not a Gentile religion. It is the fulfillment of the Jewish religion.
Posted by: Doug | May 17, 2007 10:43 AM
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Dear Mark:
You missed the point--your paint brush is too broad. You are guilty of the same generalizations of which some detractors accuse Jerry Falwell. Wacko, TX is not the center of some "right wing conspiracy" any more than NY is the locus of a "left wing communist" conspiracy to ruin America. People have different opinions. Some have good reasons, others do not. You would exclude a whole group of people apparently because you disagree with them. Is that a good rational reason to do so?
Thales
Posted by: Thales | May 17, 2007 10:12 AM
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Will there be a state funeral, I wonder? It can't be at the National Cathedral because the Episcapalians are apostates, aren't they? along with the Catholics, the Methodists, and the Church of Christ? Will Presiednt Bush throw himself on the coffin in a fit of crazed grief?
Posted by: Daniel | May 17, 2007 9:17 AM
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Why do Born-Again-Right-Wing-Conservative-Republican-Evangelical "Christians" demand respect, YES, DEMAND respect, with their haughty and self-righteous and snobby arrogance, yet get all upset when real Christians give them a cold shoulder?
Posted by: Daniel | May 17, 2007 9:09 AM
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Anon - in answer to your question, "Why are you tolerant of Wiccans, but not of conservative Christians?"
Because everything I’ve seen from Wiccans indicates their tolerance of and respect for others and most of what I’ve seen from conservative Christians indicates the opposite.
By the way, I didn’t know anything about Wicca until I started following the “On Faith” forum. They come across as the most compassionate of souls. I think Jesus, if he ever existed, would be proud of them. I certainly cannot say that about conservative Christians.
Posted by: E favorite | May 17, 2007 8:37 AM
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Doug, regarding pre-christ jews going to heaven, you say, "Romans 4 mentions, at the very least, Abraham and David. They, by faith in God, looked forward to the realization of the promise from Genesis 3:15. We, by faith, look back at the fulfillment of the promise."
Are you asserting that that Abraham and David are in heaven? I've never heard this before. Did you decide this for yourself, or are there other prominent Christians, e.g Falwell, Warren, who also assert this? If so, how did they determine this - how would they know the mind of God? Any references you have would be appreciated.
Thanks - looking forward to your response.
Posted by: E Favorite | May 17, 2007 8:29 AM
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For all of your complaints that Falwell was intolerant and a bigot, it sure sounds like you guys are intolerant of and bigoted against conservative Christianity.
Why is it ok to be everything but a conservative Christian? Why are you tolerant of Wiccans, but not of conservative Christians?
Posted by: Anonymous | May 17, 2007 8:09 AM
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I don't understand why Rick Warren would offer such an encomium to a controversial preacher/institution builder. Is he returning the support he received when he was a struggling preacher? Is he being loyal to some diffuse alliance of fundamentalist Christianity? Neither of these reasons is reeking genuineness. Or, is he really sincere about the man? In that case we wouldn't be too wrong to lump them together. I don't think the animus that arose is due to the fact that Dr. Falwell was "doing it differently"; rather, it arose because he was doing some things that many people refuse to attribute to our Lord Jesus Christ.
Posted by: TK | May 17, 2007 1:36 AM
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Reverend Falwell and his ilk give religion a bad name (to some). Their followers ignore the message and start worshiping the messenger. You end up with these mega churches that perhaps will collapse in the future once the messenger is gone. It is almost as if the messenger is the new God. It's like some club!
Instead of spending millions of dollars on these mega churches that hold 10,000 plus worshipers at one sitting, redirect the monies to needy communities in the US or overseas.
Humble houses of worship equal humble souls.
Posted by: Peter | May 17, 2007 1:11 AM
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Oh, I almost forgot: Reverend Falwell thought that textbooks were Soviet propaganda. Да, товарищ Фалуэл, все учебники--советская пропаганда к победе безбожного коммунизма!
Like Barry Goldwater, Mr. Falwell loved to say outrageous and sometimes stupid things for shock value, but unlike Mr. Goldwater, he had no tolerance for individual liberty.
Oh, his love of the ludicrous knew no bounds. Really, though, did he want American students to read nothing but the Bible? Guess who would have won the Cold War then!
Posted by: Brendan Rau | May 16, 2007 11:59 PM
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Jerry Farwell = George Bush !!!!! . . . . . . By their FRUITS, ye shall know them.
Posted by: coldcomfort | May 16, 2007 11:52 PM
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Jerry Farwell = George Bush !!!!! . . . . . . By their FRUITS, ye shall know them.
Posted by: coldcomfort | May 16, 2007 11:52 PM
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Jerry Falwell was part Elmer Gantry, and part Andrea Dworkin in drag; he was an anti-sex bigot who couldn't tolerate free speech and the dissent that comes with it. Like Dworkin, he was quick to demonize those who weren't like himself, and he used the rhetoric of hate and fear to return American culture to its patriarchal Puritan roots. Thanks to Mr. Falwell and his ilk, America needs another 1960s-style sexual revolution, and if such a revolution doesn't happen soon, then I fear for the future of America's soul.
Posted by: Brendan Rau | May 16, 2007 11:46 PM
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This greedy sick-in-the-head PIG Falwell was a spiteful and hate-filled bigot who ended up eating himself to death.
What a glutton!
Posted by: chasemonster | May 16, 2007 11:30 PM
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Rick Warren makes a major career mistake by endorsing Falwell's politicization of the Gospel; and Falwell's political involvement with the White House on a day to day basis. Rick Warren loses in his obvious reach for Falwell's shrinking constituency.... compare Lynchburg to Raleigh Durham, or Atlanta or Dallas.....Lynchburg is a dead economy. What companies would want to relocate in Lynchburg? Is this Rick Warren's vision and direction?
Posted by: charles francis | May 16, 2007 11:18 PM
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Ernie:
Sorry, Ernie. I forgot that the Rick you are referring to wrote the original statement.
Rick
Posted by: rick | May 16, 2007 11:11 PM
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Ernie Stockton :
I don't know if your post immediately following mine is in reference to me or not. I doubt if I'm the only Rick who is active on this post tonight. But I'll tell you, Ernie I'm not a Reverend, and I didn 't like what Jerry represented, nor how he represesnted the Christian story.
Rick
Posted by: Rick | May 16, 2007 10:46 PM
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Hey, guys. Just forget Doug and Kevin. These people are miniFalwell's trying to justify their warped inner beings. Just ignore them in the future and let them make fools of themselves with each other.
Posted by: dkm | May 16, 2007 10:33 PM
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So-
Pastor Rick, that soft, pudgy, nice fellow from southern Calfironia likes Jerry Falwell. What a surprise. You CANNOT trust any of these scoundrels. I doubt Reverend Rick has a sincere bone in his body either.
Posted by: Ernie Stockton | May 16, 2007 10:29 PM
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So-
Pastor Rick, that soft, pudgy, nice fellow from southern Calfironia likes Jerry Falwell. What a surprise. you CANNOT trust any of these scoundrels. I doubt Reverend Rick has a sincere bone in his body either.
Posted by: Ernie Stockton | May 16, 2007 10:29 PM
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So-
Pastor Rick, that soft, pudgy, nice fellow from southern Calfironia likes Jerry Falwell. What a surprise. you CANNOT trust any of these scoundrels. I doubt Reverend Rick has a sincere bone in his body either.
Posted by: Ernie Stockton | May 16, 2007 10:29 PM
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So-
Pastor Rick, that soft, pudgy, nice fellow from southern Calfironia likes Jerry Falwell. What a surprise. you CANNOT trust any of these scoundrels. I doubt Reverend Rick has a sincere bone in his body either.
Posted by: Ernie Stockton | May 16, 2007 10:29 PM
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I've been reading many of the posts re: Falwell's death over the past two days--both on this news rag as well as others.
Taking the comments as a random sampling I would say that Jerry did more damage to the Kingdom of God than good. Why would I say that? Because the negative comments about the man exceed the positive one's. Obviously there are many limitations on drawing any conclusion on the basis of this sampling, but wouldn't those of us who are Christian have to ask some questions in the face of many of these remarks? How come so many people don't like what we say we believe? Or what Jerry said he believed.
It's easy to quote the answers before the question is heard. Jesus said that the world would hate us even as they hated him. If we follow him hatred will follow us as night follows day; day follows night. Hey, it isn't about us, its about those living immoral lives.
Which was probably Jerry's biggest problem--he was more inclined to spout the answer rather than listen to the question. Sometimes what we see is what is an accurate perception of what we perpetrated. And sometimes when people--what we Christians would call unbelievers-- mock us and are disinclined to listen to our questionable and often ridiculous pronouncements, it's not because they hate us, it's because they hate what we have to say or find it to be ridiculous.
(9/11 was an expression of God's judgement on homosexuals, drug users. and others who lived licentuous lives? How would he know? And which group of evil doers are responsible for the fact that 30,000 kids die of starvation every day across the breadth of the earth? Presumptuous.
Ignorant. Judgemental. Ridiculous.
Huston Smith in his book, on world religions or wisdoms of the world, said that the early Christians had an impact on the world because it was as if the sluice gates were opened and love poured through in such a torrent that it could not be denied nor ignored.
Yes, It is true Rev. Falwell had an impact on our culture, but his impact was on the secular world of politics, not on opening the sluice gates of love in an unmistakable message that was demonstrated in the life of Jesus whom Jerry, it often seemed, never learned to understand.
That's why there are more negative comments then positive ones, which is the greatest sadness in both his life and in his death.
Rick
Posted by: rick | May 16, 2007 10:25 PM
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veritas sez
Christopher Hitchens was on CNN last night giving his comments on the death of Jerry Falwell."
Hitchens was FABULOUS!
Must see video.
Go Hitch!
Posted by: Mr Mark | May 16, 2007 10:22 PM
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"the university he founded that has produced two generations of leaders;"
Given the leaders it has produced, how can anyone seriously claim that Falwell was a force for good? They are most certainly nothing to be proud of. Monica is going to make the world forget the other Monica and she is only the most visible of her many classmates that took part in the rape of our justice system.
Besides that comment, I really cannot believe that an honest person capable of dressing themselves would argue that Falwell was a good man who was unfairly victimized by the people he was victimizing. What exactly motivates Mr. Warren?
Posted by: dkm | May 16, 2007 10:17 PM
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Although raised in by fundamental parents who taught that every word in the King James Version was the word of god, I still don't understand how some people cling to certain verses of the Old Testament but readily discard others. How many people condemn homosexuality but eat shellfish, braid their hair, or don't stone their children for disobedience though the verses are in the same passages.
Paul clearly states that celibacy is the best choice for godly people and only if they can't control themselves should they marry.
"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
Clearly marriage is not the christian ideal according to Paul. However, if marriage is the only way you can avoid fornication, he'll let you choose one, and only one, spouse.
"And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband. But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife."
So the prohibition on divorce is as clear as his prohibition on homosexuality. Yet, do you hear any tirades about outlawing divorce? Wonder why that is? Could it be that religious leaders only pick minority targets as enemies in order to focus their followers and maintain control?
If god told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply but Paul told the Corinthians to be celibate, and all parts of the scriptures are to be applied to everybody over the ages, we seem to have a little problem with consistency. Did God change his mind? The Old Testament and the Gospels do seem light-years away in many aspects, don't they?
Or is it possible that the Bible shouldn't be interpreted literally and that god expects people to use the brains he gave them?
Posted by: tim | May 16, 2007 9:46 PM
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"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say you helped this happen"
The guy who said this (about 9-11) is not compassionate, and Mr. Warren has revealed his true colors. It is never pleasant to see bigotry wrapped in God and the flag.
Posted by: Ba'al | May 16, 2007 9:14 PM
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I know I'm referring to some posts a long way up the page, but perhaps God's judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrah was due to the RAPE aspect of the people's behavior, and not the homosexual aspect.
Posted by: Jess | May 16, 2007 8:07 PM
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Bobby, define "healthy." Check out the death rates of women during pregnancy, and tell me how healthy that is for them.
Posted by: gasmonkey | May 16, 2007 7:52 PM
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Roger Smith writes that the verses he quotes in the NT are "A prescription for internecine warfare and martyrdom!"
Yeah, sure.
Oh the folly of those who dont believe and therefore do not understand the Bible but have no shame in quoting and judging it.
Those verses are not a call to war, they describe that the coming of Jesus will split the world into those who believe in Him, who He is, His message and those who dont. Those who know Christ will face strife from those who dont even if they are of the same family. The love of God and Jesus is greater than any love in the world. That aspect of our relationship with Christ will cause strife on this world.
Christ never called anyone to war on earth, just spiritual warfare. He said it best when He said that His kingdom is not of this earth. To illustrate this point further, Jesus rebuked Peter when the latter attcked the soldiers coming to arrest Jesus. His response was (a) a direct rebuke to violence (not against justice, or capital punishment enacted by courts and governments) and (b) Jesus doesnt need physical violence in his name, since if he wanted to he could have the angels fight for him if he so wished.
If people in history use violence in His name dont blame Jesus for that, blame people.
So much for the reading of a pro-violent message in Jesus' words. But then again, militant atheists conclude without investing the energy and quiet understanding of the narrative's of the Bible. Theyre too busy raging to understand it.
Posted by: Bobby | May 16, 2007 7:02 PM
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Compassionate conservative, no way, pure hate monger evil man inspired Bush to kill 600,000 Iraqis.
Consider the following passage from the Bible Jerry Falwell's source of hate, how do you expect him a better man? read this passages,, credited to his human God - this can not be the God of Abraham or Moses or true God of Jesus that sent him as a human and a prophet not a son or part of trinity 3 godhead all are man made lies.
Jerry Falwell was a supporter of this doctrin of hate mongering to minorities including, Gays, jews and Muslims. Read his source..
Kings James version.....
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)
and this:
"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law. (Luke 12:49-53)
A prescription for internecine warfare and martyrdom!
Couple it with 300 years of war against "infidels," 350 years of choice between conversion or a date with the Iron Maiden, the burning or drowning of witches and heretics, Srebrenica and the genocide in Bosnia…But no one asks, "Is Christianity a violent religion?"
Consider this:
(10) When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
(11) And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
(12) And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
(13) And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
(14) But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy)
Yes Bible - the one we all have is man made and the God Jesus is man made God, he never procaimed God himself rather a slave or servant or prophet of God the one and only soverign God need no son , the creator of every thing why he need a son.. just to give fake hope of heaven for Christians,, no way,, nothing like him - the one True God of Adam to Abraham, to Moses to Jesus to Muhammad the seal of the Prophet.
Peace.
Posted by: Roger Smith | May 16, 2007 6:46 PM
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Tedd wrote:
When is sex not healthy behavior?
I think the above question is preposterous, there are many manifestations of unhealthy sex. The controversy is the which get classified as healthy and which do not. In Christianity, at the bare minimun healthy sex is defined as between husband and wife. Im sure there are atheists who disagree with the above but even they would draw the line at other certain types of sex and deem it is unhealthy.
Posted by: Bobby | May 16, 2007 6:41 PM
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Dear "Sensibility"
Yet another hypocritical statement, you state your fear of homosexuality and that it is not healthy behavior. When is sex not healthy behavior? You also stated that you have "Fear of adultery, fear of stealing, fear of anything that is outside of what God says humans should not be doing."
Yet, minister's and preacher's go behind our backs, stealing our funds, having sex with other laypersons, ministers wives and children, yes, this is hypocrisy. I have no problem with ministers having sex with other peoples wives, I do have a problem with this hypocrisy and taking funds that should be left for the church and for congregational purposes, not idle vanity of money that these minister show us. Isn't vanity against the grain of your "god?"
Also, the 10 commandmants and levitical law is Jewish law. Most of us are not Jewish. If christian's are so holy, why not take up the vegetarian and vegan cross by not contributing to killing?
Posted by: Tedd | May 16, 2007 6:36 PM
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Thales:
Mark:
Having lived way too many years in Waco, TX, I would like to point out that the paper there is the Waco Tribune-Herald, not the Morning Post.
Oh, and they would definitely not consider themselves conservative.
Just ask Baylor or George W. Bush--two of their frequent targets.
Dear Thales, old philosopher, please my remarks had nothing to do with Waco, TX. Yet it has everything to do with every little thing which seems to spawn from Wacko, TX. The southern strategy, the bigotry, the ... you name it and it has a southern, conservative, christian streak to it. And these idiots have infriltrated in which was once a great newspaper. No more. Remembering Falwell? What sort of country even does that?
Posted by: Mark | May 16, 2007 6:24 PM
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BOBBY: You missed everything.
Gospel Jesus is a fictionalized version of the 'would be' Pharaoh, Amenophis IV. There were 'sons of God' at the time, sons of Pharaoh who was God. A4 flunked the 'son of God' test twice. SHE was not a son and SHE was not the child of Pharaoh either one.
Get educated, http://www.hoax-buster.org page 2 has the life of Amenophis IV who did everything Jesus supposedly did including the most damning of all, she chased the money changers from the temple of God.
If Jesus, Amenophis IV was around today and had the same power she would have chased Jerry Falwell out. She got one thing perfectly straight, religion is corrupt to the core.
Posted by: BGone | May 16, 2007 6:17 PM
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Rather than quote Rick Warren, how about the Wizard of Oz:
Ding, dong, the witch is dead ... the wicked witch is dead.
May he be treated in the afterlife as he treated so many others.
Posted by: Jimmy Mac | May 16, 2007 6:14 PM
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Heart attacks are the wrath of a just God upon charlatan preachers...
Posted by: Anonymous | May 16, 2007 6:14 PM
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Like any leader; Jerry Falwell had his followers and detractors; lovers and haters; those who'd like nothing more than seeing him canonized and those who would have loved to see him hang. Can't please everyone.
Irony is--there are a good deal of people in this country who would have jumped at the chance to follow him straight into the sea if he asked them to. Reagan and Bush-1 wouldn't have made it to The White House without his help. Think Ross Perot was a factor in 1992? He was a blip on the radar compared to Jerry Falwell in 1980 and 1988.
So--why did his detractors hate him so much and his followers love him so much? Simply; Jerry Falwell cut to the chase and told Corn-Fed Middle America what it wanted to hear. And they took it to heart.
People were tired of these hippies shooting up marijuana and snortin' hemp and playin those damned Grateful Dead records at 2 in the mornin! Most of all; they were tired of these hippies making off with their daughters! Something had to be done--and Jerry Falwell was the man to do it.
There are many who believe Jerry Falwell was so far right-wing he was teetering on the edge of falling off. Perhaps they're right. Did he hate blacks, jews and gays? Maybe. Would he stop to help one on the side of the road at 2am? Probably. And that's where I think a lot of people misunderstood him. For every one person who hated Jerry Falwell; there were a dozen writing checks to his ministry or his school. Why? Name someone who went to Liberty University--and finished--and turned out bad.
I gotta tellya. If I had a kid in high school right now--and with all the drugs, violence, gangs and other activities "we didn't grow up with" going on...I might just send them to Jerry's school. They might go kicking and screaming but I'd bet a dollar to a dime they'd thank me for it later.
I doubt if Jerry Falwell will be remembered long-term for his alleged radical views. A lot of people hate blacks, jews and gays. Okay; so the Tinky-Winky comments were a little off the deep end. Overall; I believe he'll be remembered for a lot more good than bad--and everyone should be able to be remembered that way. Hell; if Nixon was a posthumous hero--there's hope for all of us.
Posted by: sean | May 16, 2007 5:52 PM
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Doug, sorry, but you're dead wrong. The Supremes long ago ruled that "freedom of religion" does in fact include "freedom FROM religion." That's why people may choose to be athiests, and cannot be forced to say the words "under God" or the pledge of allegience.
Posted by: SC | May 16, 2007 5:40 PM
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Bruce Haupt, you missed the MOST important element on who Jesus was:
The only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
Or if you want the succinct version,
Gospel of John, 1st verse
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it
Posted by: Bobby | May 16, 2007 5:38 PM
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Kevin...
What's with the Hitler reference?? It that just standard right wing response to anyone who points out some reality surrounding the bible?
"treating others as I would wish to be treated, raising my children to be loving, compassionate, strong and humble. Most of all I try to remember that I do not understand everything, and am rarely in a position to judge others."
Sounds like real bigotry and hate to me. I will point out that is is the likes of Falwell who would really like to do "something" about gays, feminists, pagans, abortionists, the ACLU, People For the American Way and anyone else outside your world view. That list was from Jerry's 9/11 chat with Pat R. Maybe something like having them wear a pink star - just so we know who they are, you ubderstand.
Posted by: person unknown | May 16, 2007 5:37 PM
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WAS JESUS REALLY COMPASIONATE AND IF HE WAS, CAN TODAY'S MODERN CHURCH AFFORD TO BE LIKEWISE ---ALWAYS ??? OR ONLY IN MATTERS 'OF PRUDENCE ???'
--------------------------------------------------
In reality, there are 3 Jesus's of Nazareth.
--------------------
The first is the Historical Jesus, namely the Jesus that can be reconstructed from what is correctly or otherwise written about him, preferably using methods one can find set forth in books like [a] Bart D. Ehrman, MISQUOTING JESUS -- The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why (2005) HarperSanFrancisco [b] John P. Meier, A MARGINAL JEW -- Rethinking the Historical Jesus [Multi-volume](1991, et. seq.) Doubleday-Anchor Bible Reference Library [c] John Dominic Crossan, THE HISTORICAL JESUS -- The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant [Multi-volume] (1991, et. seq.) HarperSanFrancisco [d] John Davidson, THE GOSPEL OF JESUS -- In Search of his Original Teachings (1995) Element Books Ltd., Rockport, Ma. [e] Raymond E. Brown, THE DEATH OF THE MESSIAH -- A commentary on the Passion Narratives [Multi-volume] (1994) Doubleday.
The second is the Jesus of faith which would include the Jesus as preached from the pulpit, [fire and brimstone, etc.] or as seen in the heart or conscience of the beholder, though that Jesus can be at considerable variance, for what someone BELIEVES is very, very important [be it 'correct' or otherwise.]
The third Jesus is the Real Jesus, [the Jesus that is arguably impossible to know, for we were not there] the very same Jesus who walked in person teaching, healing and causing considerable chaos for the existing ruling Jewish elite, the Sanhedrin.
Of course Jesus was a Jew and a Rabbi and while he clearly challenged the authorities of his day, this commentator personally sees no evidence that he came [to Earth] for the express purpose of creating a religion separate and distinct from his native Judaism. That would occur only after the crucifixion and especially after the death of Stephen the Martyr.
When most Christians speak of Jesus, they BELIEVE they are talking about Jesus #3 [the Real Jesus], but in fact they are usually speaking of Jesus #2 [the Jesus of faith -- as they BELIEVE] which is probably the MAJOR REASON why there is so much disagreement among Christians about WHO JESUS WAS and/or WHO THEY WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE JESUS WAS.
___________________________________________
So, when I am asked WHO WAS JESUS OF NAZARETH, I like to ask WHICH JESUS OF NAZARETH do you mean?
___________________________________________
Rest in peace Jerry Falwell.
Posted by: Bruce W. Haupt | May 16, 2007 5:29 PM
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Sensibility, what makes you think that anybody who does not agree that homosexuality is a "sin" must be a homosexual? I don't think eating pork is a sin; does that mean I eat it? I don't think wearing polyester is a sin; does that mean I wear it? Hell no. I have a question for you, though. What did Jesus ever say about homosexuality? And if it was so important, wouldn't God have put it in the Top 10?
Posted by: Ton | May 16, 2007 5:26 PM
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I note from the posts here that many, who I assume are gay individuals, assume that anyone that calls homosexual behavior "sinful" is a homophobe- that those that believe this behavior to be sinful are fearful of homosexuals. In a sense we are fearful of it, and it is a healthy fear. Fear of adultery, fear of stealing, fear of anything that is outside of what God says humans should not be doing.
At the same time I believe that gays should have civil rights to a degree and not be hassled for their lifestyles.
Posted by: Sensibility | May 16, 2007 5:21 PM
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I dont' believe in heaven or hell, but I hope now they exist, so this man can burn in hell for eternity for creating more hate in the world. Religion is just an excuse to judge others. Just another joke on humanity.
Posted by: Fred Rolnick | May 16, 2007 5:17 PM
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Mark:
Having lived way too many years in Waco, TX, I would like to point out that the paper there is the Waco Tribune-Herald, not the Morning Post.
Oh, and they would definitely not consider themselves conservative.
Just ask Baylor or George W. Bush--two of their frequent targets.
Posted by: Thales | May 16, 2007 4:53 PM
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Rick, please spare me your hatred and bigotry towards Christians. You're beginning to sound an aweful lot like Adolph Hitler. If someone slightly upsets your little apple cart of life, it's off to the gas chambers with 'em. However, your insults can be forgiven. That was the central message of Rev. Falwell.
Posted by: Kevin | May 16, 2007 4:42 PM
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This an outrage. Gentle spirit? Warm man? This man, this litlle creature, this worm, this sickening bastard had it in him to blame ... well whatever. There's no reasoning with founders of whatever ministery you have in the third world als known as the United States. This is the Washington Post, not the Wacko, TX, Morning Post.
Posted by: Mark | May 16, 2007 4:42 PM
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I teach Sunday school--Sunday school, mind you!--in the American Midwest!--and I have a hard time getting many children to choose to identify with the label 'Christian' because of what Jerry Falwell and his ilk have done to the image of that faith community--even among the children of church-goers.
For a large portion of this nation, 'Christian' has come to have immediate and strong connotations of intolerance, close-mindedness, self-righteousness, and all-around mean-spiritedness.
We have Jerry Falwell to thank for that.
Posted by: Kim Cairns | May 16, 2007 4:39 PM
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"THOSE WHO VIEW HOMOSEXUALITY AS A SIN ARE, REPEAT ARE, HOMOPHOBES."
What is the name for those who view homophobes as sinners?
Heterophobes?
Or maybe there is not such thing as sin, meaning that even if one were a homophobe, it couldn't be classified as a bad thing.
But then that ruins the argument, doesn't it?
Some here dislike Bible quotes, but me, I'd just like to see some coherent logic.
Posted by: Thales | May 16, 2007 4:34 PM
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As long as there are gay-bashers like Jerry Falwell and his followers, including those making appearances on this forum, there will never be peace on earth, ever, not at least until all of the gay-bashers have at last lain down for their final "rest in peace," then there may be some peace for the rest of us.
Posted by: Daniel | May 16, 2007 4:32 PM
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Jesus never went back to the people that he taught, to check up on their progress. He basically told them the truth concerning God, told them to stop sinning, and went to the next town. He instructed his disciples to behave in the same manner. His charge was to spread the good news. but it was up to the each and every person to decide what they were going to do with the message they had received. And so it is with all sinners - stop sinning.
Posted by: Kevin | May 16, 2007 4:31 PM
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The man blamed American culture for 9/11. He was full of hate. He was a homophobe and a fascist. He contributed nothing to american religion, though he was significant in putting together the Republican co-alition that has so screwed America.
Truth; get used to it.
Oh, and as for biblical literalists? They are still figuring out which version of creation in Genesis was right, as there are two and they differ as to when woman was created...
Anytime a "Christianist" starts quoting the bible and excusing genocide I turn, not to a gun, but to Voltaire. Better for your soul.
Posted by: donald | May 16, 2007 4:27 PM
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I am not upset with you guys for quoting from the Bible. I am trying to be polite, and let you in on something that you seem unaware of, that quoting form the Bible in a public place is in appropriate behavior, and if you want to at least seem kind of "normal" then stop doing it. Otherwise, if you don't care, quote, quote, quote yourselves up a storm
Posted by: Daniel | May 16, 2007 4:24 PM
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Doug:
If your religion requires you to attempt to share it, that's fine. But Falwell and his ilk go far beyond that.
One of his goals was to see the public school system eliminated and ALL children educated in church schools. Step One in his goal of a Christian nation.
Falwell, Dobson, et al want US secular law to reflect Christian beliefs. Those of us who are not Christian don't object to you living your life according to your doctrines, but we object strongly to attempts to force us to do so by enacting legislation that is nothing more than thinly disguised dogma.
Posted by: lepidopteryx | May 16, 2007 4:22 PM
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"What else am I suppose to reference..."
You figure it out. If all your arguments rest on religous text, then just discuss them with other people with like views, and please leave the rest of us out of it. If you don't mind being perceived as a religious fantatic loon, then go ahead, quote to your heart's content.
Posted by: Daniel | May 16, 2007 4:19 PM
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Jerry Falwell once said, "I am not homophobic; I am sinophobic."
Take that for what you will.
Posted by: Doug | May 16, 2007 4:18 PM
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Sorry, Daniel. The post from "Anonymous" above is really from me.
Posted by: Doug | May 16, 2007 4:16 PM
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Anonymous:
Daniel: Pastor Rick Warren is not homophobic but he does view homosexuality as a sin.
Posted May 16, 2007 3:14 PM
ANNOUNCEMENT:
THOSE WHO VIEW HOMOSEXUALITY AS A SIN ARE, REPEAT ARE, HOMOPHOBES.
Posted by: Jude The PROMINENT | May 16, 2007 4:15 PM
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E Favorite, I would not suggest that all those who died before Christ end up in hell because they never had the chance to know Christ. Nor would the New Testament say that.
The NT is full of references to "those who are of the faith of Abraham" who lived and died before Christ. Hebrews 11 has a long list of them. Romans 4 mentions, at the very least, Abraham and David. They, by faith in God, looked forward to the realization of the promise from Genesis 3:15. We, by faith, look back at the fulfillment of the promise.
Posted by: Doug | May 16, 2007 4:15 PM
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Russell D: "Wow, what do you know, I am still here. No bolt from the sky or brimstone.
THE LORD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS
Posted by: E Favorite | May 16, 2007 4:14 PM
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Daniel said, "Quoting from any religious text to prove logical arugments in a public place is a bad symptom." And again, "If you don't want a "push back" then don't trash gay people in public, and try to prove your disingenuous and hypocrtical point by quoting from relgious text, which might strike some people as "disturbed" thinking."
Daniel, this is a religion thread about a Christian leader who believed and taught the Bible. What else am I supposed to reference when discussing him or his views (which came from the Bible).
And I would suggest that those who come onto religious boards that have as their basis a Christian, biblical discussion have "disturbed thinking" if they get upset when the Bible is discussed.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 16, 2007 4:09 PM
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Doug - you mentioned that jesus "ended up dying by crucifixion."
Yes, but not for long. He rose from the dead, in just 3 days and now sits at the right hand of God and is glorified in heaven forever.
Think of all the people before him who were crucified and died for good - no heaven for them, right? because they never had the chance to know Christ.
Posted by: E favorite | May 16, 2007 4:08 PM
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Andrew said, "If we had religious freedom, we wouldn't have your Christian crap on our money or in the Pledge, and we wouldn't have property tax exemptions for churches that forces secular Americans (45 million of us and growing fast) to subsidize your religion."
I may be a little odd, but I would have no problem as a conservative, right-wing religious nut if we got rid of all that stuff. None of it matters anyway. This is not a "Christian nation" so why should we pretend to be in the pledge, money or tax code?
But, understand, freedom of religion does not mean freedom FROM religion. Religious people are free to participate in the political system just like non-religious people. You want to rid society of religion. I want to allow religion to function within society freely.
As for keeping my religion out of your life, if part of my religion is that I am supposed to share with you about my religion, then I must do it as long as it is not against the law. If it is against the law to share my religion, then as Peter and John did in Acts 3, I must "obey God rather than man" and be willing to face the consequences.
It is not about control or, as you put it, "putting you in camps." It is about love for God and love for the people He created.
Posted by: Doug | May 16, 2007 4:03 PM
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Kevin, Doug,
Get over yourselves and your Bible. I love when people use the Bible to justify their bigotry. I've tried to simplify religion down to what I believe are the core messages to live by, things that are useful to me on a day by day basis: treating others as I would wish to be treated, raising my children to be loving, compassionate, strong and humble. Most of all I try to remember that I do not understand everything, and am rarely in a position to judge others.
On the other hand, you and many like you are more concerned with ensuring you're pointing out the enemy, and that you've got your biblical verses at the ready...
A little history infused with bible study wouldn't hurt either of you... it's writings, like many of the writings of today, largely reflect the views of the writers and the realities of the time in which they were written, later on picked and put together by others... It's not a knock on the Bible, it's just a reality that actually makes the bible a far more interesting and telling piece of literature.
Enjoy your life in the Right/Wrong Bubble. The rest of us actually have to worry ourselves with the real world, and the conflicting realities that exist in that world. Oh, and we also have to try to do what we can to make it just a tiny bit better. I long for the day when I have the luxury to throw in the towel and begin quoting the Bible and pointing out the bad people.
Posted by: Rick | May 16, 2007 3:58 PM
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To Doug
If you don't want a "push back" then don't trash gay people in public, and try to prove your disingenuous and hypocrtical point by quoting from relgious text, which might strike some people as "disturbed" thinking.
Posted by: Daniel | May 16, 2007 3:57 PM
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All religious people aren't crazy, but alot of crazy people end up crazy over religion. This is a fact. Religious fantaticsm is scary psychological state. Quoting from any religious text to prove logical arugments in a public place is a bad symptom.
Posted by: Daniel | May 16, 2007 3:53 PM
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No, Doug, we do not have religious freedom in this country. What we have is limited religious tolerance. That's not altogether a bad thing - you guys aren't killing us or putting us in camps - yet - but it is not religious freedom. If we had religious freedom, we wouldn't have your Christian crap on our money or in the Pledge, and we wouldn't have property tax exemptions for churches that forces secular Americans (45 million of us and growing fast) to subsidize your religion.
The only possible definition of religious freedom: You keep your religion out of my life and away from my family, and keep your theocratic fingers out of my pockets. I will do the same.
Posted by: Andrew | May 16, 2007 3:46 PM
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FYI
Until this forum came along I considered myself cool to opinions of atheists. But witnessing rabid tirade after rabid tirade from militant atheists who defy reason and decorum, insist on attacking a false version of Christainity that they themselves construct (straw man anyone?), denouncing religious Christians as crazy who see what they do not...
Militant atheists you indeed have succeeded....in exposing yourselves as crazies and drowning out those atheists who choose reasoned debates and dialogue as a method for disseminating their views
Posted by: Bobby | May 16, 2007 3:33 PM
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Brambleton:
No need for namecalling, the facts are the facts:
Specifically, just one example of many: when the first round of Bush tax cuts was enacted, an after-school program was cut from the federal budgtet to pay for it. The vast majority of beneficiaries of this program are single mothers, some of the poorest people in this country. So they had to scramble to pay find an extra $500 per month or so to pay for day care. Do you know how hard it is for most single mothers to come up with an extra $500? Meanwhile the President netted himself a cool $38,000 from his tax cut that year, and Dick Cheney got a check for more than $60,000. What's Dick going to do with $60,000? Throw it on the pile? These are cold-hearted Reepublican policies that cause real hardships to real people. Enthusiastically supported by Jerry Falwell, and the opposite of what Jesus would do.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 16, 2007 3:30 PM
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Daniel, it is you who have trashed our beliefs and us. In your very last post you called me mentally ill because I quote from the Bible. You have called me "confused" and "afraid" and said that I am a liar. You misquoted me to the point where I don't even recognize my own supposed statements.
And we are in a religious forum on under a post by a Southern Baptist named Rick Warren about the death of a Fundamentalist preacher named Jerry Falwell. You should expect Baptists and fundamentalists on this forum to quote the Bible.
Posted by: Doug | May 16, 2007 3:17 PM
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Sorry but in the US the words "compasionate" and "conservative" (as defined by the Rovians) do not go together. Neither do "loving" and "Christian extremist" which Falwell was.
Posted by: Roy | May 16, 2007 3:15 PM
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Daniel: Pastor Rick Warren is not homophobic but he does view homosexuality as a sin.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 16, 2007 3:14 PM
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To Doug
You said that you did not want gay people to be killed "or anything." Good. That is all I was anxious about. I guess you do not realize how threatening your religous rhetoric can be. Because, homophobic rhetoric often sounds like a veiled threat "to get rid of" gay people. Mabye in the future, you should try to be a little clearer and less threatening.
Posted by: Daniel | May 16, 2007 3:14 PM
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Quoting from the Bible can be a sign of mental illness. All religious people are not crazy, but alot of crazy people end up crazy over religion.
Quoting from the Bible to prove logical arguments is absurd, unless you know, that certainly your audience has the exact same belief that you have. In a public place, most people's beliefs will vary quite alot.
Let us just vary the setting a little bit: If a Moslem tried to prove his every argument by issuing quotes from the Koran in a very superior and condescending tone, how would that make you feel?
I am a Methodist, and according to the teachings that I was raised with, in the Methodist Church, many of the cited quotations here are either disingenuous or issued fouth in complete ignorance. I have a complete right to read the comments on this forum and to add my comments.
Just because my Christian belief has advanced beyond a primitive and backward fundamentalism, I do not see any reason to trash me or my beliefs.
Posted by: Daniel | May 16, 2007 3:11 PM
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Daniel,
Good argumentation. You took my words, twisted them and now made me sound like I said "all homosexuals are murderers and rapists." That is a logical fallacy if I ever saw one.
What I said is that all sin is sin, including mine.
Again, read my post carefully. We live in America, which is a free country. If American law allows for homosexuality, so be it. I don't think they should all be killed or anything.
But, American law also allows for freedom of religion and freedom of speech. The Bible says homosexuality is a sin. You can choose not to believe the Bible, but I am still, as a free American, allowed to proclaim it.
Posted by: Doug | May 16, 2007 3:08 PM
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The PS3 comment was added for joking effect
Posted by: Bobby | May 16, 2007 3:05 PM
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Daniel writes "And what do we get in return from people like you? ...that gay people are the same as murderers and pedaphiles and rapists."
What part dont you understand?
Christianity teaches that ALL people are sinners, sins come in all sorts of flavors including homosexuality. Again ALL are sinners, human beings...CAN I MAKE THE POINT ANY CLEARER????
Christians strive to reject sin while never judging other sinners (since WE TOO ARE SINNERS). We reject homosexuality as something that turns us away from God. Love of money, my PS3, lying, stealing or insisting on a life of debauchery are in the same basket of sins.
Mentioning rapists and pedophiles with Christian belief is laughable.
Posted by: Bobby | May 16, 2007 3:03 PM
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Dear Anonymous
Pastor Warren is not homophobic. I have heard his comments about gay people. I am just shocked and appalled at all of the excuses Christians make to cover up their failings on the subject of gay people and homophobia.
To make fun of my arguments and belittle me, does not help make your case. To create such mocking words as "liarphobia" or "heterophobia" does not advance your argument nor diminish mine. Just making fun of me is not good enough. Being a bully does not win your case.
The Pope did not say all people are "intrinsically disordered." The Pope went out of his way to say that gay people are "intrinsically disordered." This is a man who wears pink slippers, and wears fluffy furry capes.
I think that on the subject of sexuality in general, and apecifically, homo-sexuality, that Christianity needs to do alot of work, before it is anything that Christ would want his name attached to.
Posted by: Daniel | May 16, 2007 3:03 PM
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Jerry Falwell spent a career demonizing others. Upon his death, what else could he expect in return?
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/05/15/jerryfalwell/index.html
Posted by: B-Man | May 16, 2007 2:59 PM
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Daniel, I believe this Forum is titled "On Faith". It is entirely relevant to quote from the Bible in such a forum with the discussion being a Christian preacher.
What I don't understand is the presence of "well, God doesnt exist and the Bible is bogus" comments. If you dont believe in God or the Bible thats your right. But you add nothing to the discussion about the teachings, message and truth of a religion.
I dont believe at all in the Wiccan religion yet I never add commentary to the Starhawk segments on the On Faith forum.
Frankly, every time an article is written discussing some various theme of Christianity and I see the "well God doesn't exist and the Bible is bull" comments I just roll my eyes...
Posted by: bobby | May 16, 2007 2:57 PM
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To Doug
What I am talking about, and what people like me are talking about, is simple justice and respect. And what do we get in return from people like you? ...that gay people are the same as murderers and pedaphiles and rapists. That is just a lie. Recongition of the dignity of gay people to exist, freely, in the world, will not result in anachy and moral collapse. That is also just more of your lies.
You have surrendered yourself to fundamentalist conformity of thought. You have done this because you are afraid. You are afraid of a world that is confusing and uncertain. So you have commited to a conformity of thought in which you never have to make another decision again, but only spout the dogma.
Are you really so certain? Do you have doubt? You cannot bannish doubt. Doubt seeps in, and if you deny that you ever feel doubt, then you are not being an honest person.
Posted by: Daniel | May 16, 2007 2:53 PM
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Daniel..Daniel..
"There is something sick about quoting from the Bible on a forum such as this."
You're posting on Pastor Rick Warren's thread on a FAITH Forum..
Take a deep breath and count to 10 backwards to reorient yourself.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 16, 2007 2:51 PM
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Daniel, everyone is intrinsically disordered. Man fell from God's grace, and I am still part of that fall. I am very much a sinner, and try hard to keep my heart pure, and my mind straight. I believe that if I forgive others and suspend judgement, then I too can ask for forgiveness and receive it. But when I sin, I can't expect everyone who believes I've sinned, to just simply stop believing that it's sinful. I can't start calling them names, 'phobic-this' and 'phobic-that', so that I can continue along my sinful path. If I bear false witness in a court of law, I can't really say to the person that I lied about, "You're just mad at me because you're a liarphobic. You really need to start accepting me for who I am. I'm a pathological liar, God made me that way, there's nothing I can do to change it, so just accept it, and be more tolerant of liars." I think that's all Rev. Falwell was saying.
Posted by: Kevin | May 16, 2007 2:51 PM
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There is something undeniabley sick about religious fundamentalism. There is something sick about quoting from the Bible on a forum such as this. Do that in Sunday School with like minded people; otherwise, it is a sign of extreme ignorance or extreme hostility.
Posted by: Daniel | May 16, 2007 2:44 PM
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Wow, what do you know, I am still here. No bolt from the sky or brimstone.
As for do what you feel right Doug:
Of course there are some limits and rules, but I wasn't speaking in terms of violence. Guess some of us are more fixated on blood and guts than most. Not me, I prefer a good gross out comedy.
The Bible shouldn't set the rules. The rules were around long before the Bible. The Bible just put them back out there. I know right from wrong. I would hope most people do also. Do you?
Posted by: Russell D. | May 16, 2007 2:41 PM
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Russell said, "Sin is a word given to an act that people in authority don't like. Screw the authority. Do what you feel is right."
I can see we are moving into apologetics here...
Russell, what if I think it is right to kill you? Is that ok? Why do you think it is not ok to just kill someone? Why does every society have laws that protect people in some way? Where do we all get the concept of right and wrong? Who determines what is right?
Without some outside authority putting in us a concept of right and wrong, there is no right and wrong. The logical conclusion of your evolutionist, "survival of the fittest" viewpoint is anarchy and eventual annihilation. The end point of this view is Adolf Hitler.
Posted by: Doug | May 16, 2007 2:34 PM
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Kevin said:
"Homosexuality is a sin, as it is lust outside the Holy bonds of marriage. Marriage is a sacramental gift from God, given to a man and a woman. Very simple, and very clear."
So gay people are evil because they have sex outside of marriage. But they are also forbidden to marry. So, nothing a gay person does or does not do is right. A gay person, according to the Pope, is "intrinsically disordered." God just makes mistakes when he consistently turns out so many gay people. So what should we do with all these gay people? How should we get rid of them? And you know, as soon as you get rid of them, more of them crop up. How can we possibly ever solve this problem? Kill them? In the name of Christ? Maybe your religion is leading you down a crooked path. Maybe you should re-examine it.
Posted by: Daniel | May 16, 2007 2:23 PM
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Ok, I may have to get graphic here, but I am gonna try to make a point fo rall of you homophobes out there. Guys mainly.
If you watch porn, do you like watching two women with each other? Most likely yes.
And you don't like to see two guys together.
Now, for the guys who like to partake in anal intercourse with their girlfriends and or wives.....I'll put it how my wife put it. You're already partaking in the act that gay men do, so you're just a step away......I mean, you're basically putting it in the same hole. Yea, I flinched when she said it to me, but oh well. I said, ok. So I guess that particular sex episode will be kind of sparse. She said yea.
Don't mean to freak you guys out, but think about it. I thought it was interesting.
Sin is a word given to an act that people in authority don't like. Screw the authority. Do what you feel is right. Quit quoting the Bible to make it seem like you have something important to say. It just makes you look foolish. The Bible is not the authority, nor is God.
God is a manmade concept. God should thank us. For without us, there would be no God. If I seem bitter, so be it. If God fins this rant offensive, let him strike me down right now. Bet I'll be back in 5 minutes to prove that it's crap.
Posted by: Russell D. | May 16, 2007 2:23 PM
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Daniel, Daniel, Daniel...
The problem with the mark of Cain theory is that all of Cain's descendants would have been wiped out by the Flood in Genesis 7-8. Noah and his family, the only people to survive, were descended from Seth, not Cain. So, the people who mis-used that story could not have been right. Just because someone mis-uses something from God's Word doesn't mean God's Word is wrong. Those people who used the "mark of Cain" view were wrong and bigoted.
I believe all sin is sin. Sin would be anything that falls short of glorifying God. And, yes, I am a sinner by nature. Do I think that my sin is any less egregious to God than the sin of homosexuality? No, I do not. The sinful desires that I follow are just as bad as the sinful desires of homosexuality.
My sin, and yours, and the sin of the homosexual is against an eternal, holy God. Jesus, the eternal Son of God, died on the cross and rose from the dead to cover the sin of anyone who would repent and believe. No sin is too little or too big. By repenting (or turning from sin)and believing (or trusting in Him alone) we can be reconciled to the God we had sinned against and under whose judgment we stand.
This is the message of the Bible. If this is bigotry, then call me a bigot all you want.
Posted by: Doug | May 16, 2007 2:22 PM
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I once heard someone say:
Religion should be a stick to lean on
not a stick to hit others with.
Unfortunately, Falwell used it to often
in the second way.
Posted by: robd | May 16, 2007 2:21 PM
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Dear Mr. Doug,
The Bible talks about the "mark of Cain" which many people intrepret as the dark skin of black people, and use as a Biblical justification of white supremecy over black people. Even though the central teachings of Jesus Christ are quite straight forward and clear, there are always black-hearted people who seek to exploit Jesus and his teachings to promote their own personal prejucices and bigotry. That is exactly what you are doing. You are a bigot, plain and simple. Why not embrace it? That is what you are. You are entitled, by the mere fact of your birth, to a position of superiority, which does not, and cannot apply to gay people, who are by definition, inferior to you. Just go ahead and say it; you are a bigot who practices a bigotted relgion. Why is that so hard for you to admit?
Posted by: Daniel | May 16, 2007 2:12 PM
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I think some of you are confusing sexual orientation with actual sexual positions. When you think of a gay person, maybe you would do better not to be concentrating on all kinds of homosexual positions, and sex acts. That is actually pretty impolite. However, people in general are born with their sexual orientation, and do not choose it. If you believe that people choose their sexual orientation, then tell us when and how you chose yours.
Posted by: Daniel | May 16, 2007 2:05 PM
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I'll remember him as a Nazi who persecuted people he didn't like. His bible teaching taught hate and division in America when we as American's shouldn't have that kind of hate or division. I've lost the faith as a result of hypocrisy like this. As a former staunch conservative and former republican I was ashamed to be called a Christian. I am not long either. He reeked of conservative KKKK with out the hood, teaching his hate towards other's.
BTW, the true bible doesn't call or say anything about homosexuality as being a sin. The word homosexuality was added later to favor these kinds of Christian's. The bible does however talk about eunuch's both natural and man made in old greek and Aramaic writing's hundreds of time in favorable terms. Falwell's infatuation with degrading homosexual's is totally against the true biblical writings, which BTW are not the words of Jesus, but his followers that wrote things down 100 years after the death of Christ.
Posted by: Tedd | May 16, 2007 2:03 PM
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Jerry Falwell wil be remembered as a homophobe.
Homophobia is a specialized cult that many have tacked onto Christianity. If you are a practitoner of homophobia, then go ahead and embrace it as your religion, but please do not take the Lord's name in vein by saying that it is Christian.
It is hypocritical to promote an un-Christian cult like homophobia, and then to get all insulted when real Christians give you a cold shoulder
Posted by: Daniel | May 16, 2007 2:00 PM
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Ash said, "Personally, I don't care if his views on blacks and homosexuals came from the Bible or the Turner Diaries."
I don't know why you would place race and sexual practice in the same category. You can't change your race (which, by the way the Bible says nothing bad about). But you can change your sexual practice.
"Oh, but they were born with homosexual desires." Yeah, and I was born with a desire to cheat on my wife. But I can choose, by the grace of God, not to act on it. We are all born with sinful desires. That doesn't make it right to participate in those sinful actions.
If you don't believe the Bible, that's fine. This is America. It is a free country. But don't act as if you know the Bible while denying what it clearly says.
Posted by: Doug | May 16, 2007 1:55 PM
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Homosexuality is a sin, as it is lust outside the Holy bonds of marriage. Marriage is a sacramental gift from God, given to a man and a woman. Very simple, and very clear. Calling someone who knows homosexuality to be sinful, as 'homophobic', is the same as calling someone who believes murder to be sinful, 'murderphobic', or someone who knows rape is sinful, 'rapistphobic'. Hatred and intolerence towards those who pursue the commands of God seems to be all the rage these days, which does reinforce and highlight the courage that Rev. Falwell exhibited throughout his lifetime. Rev. Falwell will be sorely missed.
Posted by: Kevin | May 16, 2007 1:55 PM
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Russell:
Genesis 13:13 But the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the LORD.
Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave
Genesis 19:4-5 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally."
Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
And, just in case you don't believe the Bible (not just Falwell's Bible, but the Holy Bible) calls homosexuality as sin...
Romans 1:26-27 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
Posted by: Doug | May 16, 2007 1:51 PM
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What is it you claim we have no knowledge of, Doug? The Bible? Jesus? Or some other bronze-age fantasy? Many of us who are clear-headed enough to see Falwell for the evil pig that he was are far more familiar with Christian fairy tales than most supposed believers are.
Personally, I don't care if his views on blacks and homosexuals came from the Bible or the Turner Diaries. His veneer of religiosity doesn't excuse him; a religious bigot is still just a bigot.
Posted by: Ash | May 16, 2007 1:45 PM
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Brambleton:
Are you really saying Bush is doing better at running this country than Clinton? Forshame...........
Posted by: Russell D. | May 16, 2007 1:42 PM
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Doug:
Sodom and Gomorrah were leveled because of homosexuality? You stole Jerry's version of the Bible didn't you...........naughty boy.
The Bible is nothing more than a collection of good moral, and horror stories before bedtime. Most were borrowed from other cultures. Some of the ideas in the Bible aren't even new.
Posted by: Russell D. | May 16, 2007 1:40 PM
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All of you are forgetting that Jesus was hated in His day. Those in the "establishment" mis-characterized Jesus and He ended up dying by crucifixion.
Did Falwell say some stupid stuff? Of course. But his views on homosexuality were biblical.
What of judging, you say? "He was so judgmental. He should have listened to the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus told us not to judge!" Perhaps you should read all of Jesus' sermon where we are told judge false teachers. Did you ever hear what Jesus called the Pharisees? He pronounced judgment on them, called them hypocrites and white-washed tombs, and told them that the final judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah (cities destroyed by God for the sin of homosexuality) would be less harsh than for them. Many would have called Jesus judgmental and intolerant.
Jerry Falwell was not perfect. But he was true to his belief that all of life should be framed by the Bible and not by popular opinion. You may disagree with his view of the Bible. But don't talk about what you have no knowledge of.
Posted by: Doug | May 16, 2007 1:26 PM
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He was a "nut job".
Posted by: Chuck | May 16, 2007 1:09 PM
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I love how Falwell supporters rail against "cultural rot" and cite people like Larry Flynt and Jesse Jackson as contributing to it, but then, upon Falwell's death, turn around and use their diplomatic condolences as vindicaton for his hatefulness.
Falwell made a caricature out of himself. Whatever charity work he did does not excuse the horrid amount of bigotry he spewed. Yes, I'm sure Falwell's cultural impact was great, but not nearly as great as the physical and psychological impact he inflicted on gays through all of his gay-bashing. Falwell has reaped the whirlwind of the hatred he bellowed. That's why such a large portion of Americans do not feel mournful after his passing.
Posted by: Adamo | May 16, 2007 1:05 PM
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When a Christian quotes the Bible to me I immediately reach for my gun.
Posted by: candide | May 16, 2007 12:55 PM
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Compassionate?! What are you talking about? Granted, Falwell may have been a nice guy in person (I never met him). But his ideology was judgmental and divisive. He wanted everyone to be a Christian like him. I'm an atheist, economic conservative, strong-on-defense, social liberal Libertarian Dittohead Republican who has no love for the homophobic and freedom-restricting agenda of the religious right. Falwell, Pat Robertson, et. al., probably yearn for the long ago days of the 1950s when women stayed at home, people of alternative lifestyles stayed in the closet, and people who were not Christians kept quiet. Evangelicals, be they Christian or Moslem, in their quest to "save people's souls," always believe they are acting out of good intentions. But the intentions do not justify bad actions, like preaching homophobia and censorship. The Inquisitors thought they were saving people's souls or ridding their lands of infidels, but that didn't make them right. Falwell may have preached against Islam but he probably envied the political power of those freedom-suppressing Islamic clerics.
Posted by: Live Long and Prosper | May 16, 2007 12:50 PM
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As a college freshman in 1979-80, I remember being against Jerry Falwell's involvement in politics, even though I myself had accepted Jesus Christ that September in my dorm room. As a spiritual transformation was occurring in my life, I began to agree with many of Falwell's perspectives and, above all, admiring him for taking strong moral stands despite all sorts of media vitriol. Many others who originally were against Falwell came to agree with the man's viewpoints over the cultural rot in America. Falwell was a bulldog on television and an entertaining debater; nobody appeared on Phil Donahue's program more often than Falwell.
Judging by very sincere and supportive comments yesterday from, ironically, Larry Flynt and Jesse Jackson, it confirmed my perspective that Falwell was, indeed, a very compassionate man when the television cameras weren't recording his every utterance and promoting an evangelical caricature.
Men like Jonathan Alter want us to believe that Falwell didn't make much of a difference. Don't kid yourself - Falwell's cultural impact was huge...
Posted by: John | May 16, 2007 12:45 PM
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Another Khazar I'm sure: Mr. Warren.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 16, 2007 12:45 PM
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As for the millions he "invested" in helping the poor and underprivileged, correct me if I'm wrong but that money came from donations from his flock, right? Is it really compassionate or Christlike to pad your fame by accepting gifts from Peter to buy stuff for Paul?
As a Christian who tries to live up to Christ's example every day, let me say that the lack of basic critical thinking skills in Americans in general and fundamentalists in particular is frightening.
Posted by: pgomben | May 16, 2007 12:24 PM
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RICK WARREN IS EITHER A SELF-DELUDED IDIOT OR A FOOL OR BOTH IF HE THINKS JERRY FALWELL WAS ANYTHING OTHER THAN A SELF-ENRICHING BIGOT.
Jerry Falwell was Christian in the same sense that the Nazi leadership identified itself as Christian. Since the advent of Christianity, SCOUNDRELS have sought riches and protection by hiding behind and standing on the body of Jesus. Falwell was one of those scoundrels.
Rot in hell Jerry JACKA$$!
Posted by: Frank | May 16, 2007 12:18 PM
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Compassionate? Like hell. Nobody with compassion stokes hate like Falwell did. It take no real "compassion" to love people who are just like you, and believe just as you believe. Compassion is the ability to empathize with those unlike ourselves.
Posted by: Tony | May 16, 2007 12:10 PM
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isn't gluttony one of the seven deadly sins....
so, what happens to jerry's private plane now that he's no longer in need of it.
Posted by: linda | May 16, 2007 12:09 PM
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Jerry Falwell like other TV evangelists used the Bible as a marketing tool to acquire riches used to built monuments to himself.
If he had been the man that is described in this essay he would now be revered by the multitudes.
His despicable attacks against his fellow men and women were all designed to anger the fundamentalists and correspondingly fill his coffers.
No matter what revisionists such as Warren may say, the man was no Jesus clone.
He was an anti-Semite who described Jews using the familiar stereotypes voiced by the KKK and other White Power cowards.
He was not the first religious charlatan to appear on the national scene and as we can see by this hypocritical revisionist essay, he will not be the last!
Posted by: J. leopold | May 16, 2007 12:08 PM
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Dear Rick Warren,
Your apologia is hollow, revisionist and disingenuous. Mr. Falwell will be most remembered for the caricature he made of himself.
His anti-gay agenda assures his place in history as a deeply self-loathing insincere homophobe who harmed and directly abused an undeserving minority. This cannot be dismissed no matter how much effort is brought to bear.
his agenda -- and yours -- is anti-Christian. It goes against every Matthean precept. I am struck by the willful dismissal and profound expression of resignation to despair by pretending that the Gospel authors didn't mean what they had Jesus say in the Sermon on the Mount. They did mean it. We ought to take heed of it as though our very lives depend upon it -- because in the final analysis it does. It really does.
Love everyone -- even your enemies - as you love G-d. Judge no one. Embrace everyone regardless of their being, position, lack thereof or differences. Breakdown barriers between us and build up understanding of those alien to us that we might make the Kingdom of G-d on EARTH as it is in Heaven.
You and Mr. Falwell forgot this.
It’s not too late to remember.
sw
Posted by: strangely warmed | May 16, 2007 12:05 PM
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Heart attacks are the wrath of a just God upon charlatan preachers...
Posted by: Anonymous | May 16, 2007 12:01 PM
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A compassionate man wouldn't have stood in the way of AIDS research, or called the disease "God's punishment" for homosexuals. I could apply Falwell's reasoning and conclude that heart disease is ""God's punishment" for overweight bigots. How compassionate is that kind of attitude?
Posted by: A Hermit | May 16, 2007 11:58 AM
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"How sad the death of the super rich. But where did all that wealth come from? Could it be tax free, tax deductible "gifts to God" collected at tax exempt facilities? Picture Jerry standing before God. God says, "Jerry, where's all the money people gave to me that you collected and spent?" Sale of soul to Devil is supposed to bring great wealth, however. The big money goes to those who lead the multitudes to hell. And it's worse yet. The victims of the Devil's "big con" pay the Devil's fee to those who do his work."
Egad, it must be TEOTWAWKI. I agree with BGONE!
Posted by: Athena | May 16, 2007 11:52 AM
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and hilter really helped all those poor germans too!
Posted by: barb | May 16, 2007 11:52 AM
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"Rabid is the word."
Where's Atticus Finch when you need him? : )
Posted by: veritas | May 16, 2007 11:45 AM
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First and foremost, let me say that I respect Rick Warren a great deal. He is truly a man of action and one of the rare open-minded and humble evangelical christian.
But Falwell, though a disgrace to America, was a typical evangelical christian. This was not a good man. His intolerance and ignorance are typical of what I find in these fundamentalist christians all around us.
His deceitful and calculated ways were evident with every action and word that came out of his mouth. To think that the only reason these people want Israel to remain intact is so that all of the Jews can be slaughtered when christ returns is truly perverse.
Posted by: Robert | May 16, 2007 11:44 AM
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Brambleton:
Just to help you along - The poor have been harmed by giving large tax cuts to the highest bracket and by running a huge deficit to fund the war. When the time comes to handle this deficit, what do you think will be changed? Tax cuts for the top bracket or programs that do, in fact, help the poor? Remember the golden rule: them as has the gold make the rules.
Calling anybody you disagree with an idiot reflects poorly on your own intellectual status.
Posted by: person unknown | May 16, 2007 11:44 AM
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Saw the Hitchens talk on the youtube link Veritas posted.
Rabid is the word.
Posted by: Bobby | May 16, 2007 11:36 AM
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It strikes me that the people who post on this site are not self-reflective. The Rev. Falwell no doubt had many failings, especially his tendency to interpret every tragic event as a sign of God's wrath. On the other hand, he mobilized a large body of citizens who had never participated in American electoral politics and made them understand that they have a place at the table. The venom directed towards Falwell reveals what is really at stake for many people here, it's not just that they hate "rednecks," it's that they are appalled that the rednecks now vote.
Posted by: Paul | May 16, 2007 11:35 AM
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Jerry Falwell wil be remembered as a homophobe.
Homophobia is a specialized cult that many have tacked onto Christianity. If you are a practitoner of homophobia, then go ahead and embrace it as your religion, but please do not take the Lord's name in vein by saying that it is Christian.
Posted by: Daniel | May 16, 2007 11:34 AM
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Christopher Hitchens was on CNN last night giving his comments on the death of Jerry Falwell.
He was so self consumed and full of vitriolic bile -his interviewer could barely get a word in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkAPaEMwyKU
We can only imagine what Jerry Falwell's response to Hitchens would have been based on his words to Larry Flynt on CNN in 1997:
"That's alright, Chris. I love you and God does too.."
http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/9701/11/falwell.v.flynt/lkl.00.html
From the transcript:
FALWELL: I love Larry, but there is nothing wrong with hating sin and loving sinners. And that is exactly how I feel about Larry.
KING: But isn't that a judgment?
FLYNT: Now, that is a strange...
FALWELL: Well, that's exactly what Jesus said...
FLYNT: ...That Jerry Falwell says he loves me...
KING: Chills are going up and down your spine...
FLYNT: That is a strange, strange...
FALWELL: It's bugging you, that is what---and that's exactly how the Lord feels about us all...
FLYNT: (LAUGHTER)
FALWELL: ...And God loves everybody. God's no respect to a persons. And while God does--you know I'm very human, I make mistakes every day. God hates the wrong things I do.
If you read the transcript check out their comments on "kiddie porn". This interview was 10 years ago but someone had true clarity and insight.
Posted by: veritas | May 16, 2007 11:26 AM
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A guy who blames 9/11 on gay people is a lot of things, but compassionate is certainly not one of them.
Posted by: George | May 16, 2007 11:22 AM
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Ahhhh, the days of President Peanut. I often wax nostalgic over double digit unemployment and double digit inflation. And when my kids complain about gas prices today, I remind them that under President Peanut, we actually had NO GAS to buy.
It's no secret that Mr. Falwell made a number of "over the top" comments that I completely disagree with, but missing the positive impact he had for so many people is tragic. And naive.
FERNANDO,
I would love to hear, specifically, how the poor has been made "more poor" at the benefit of the rich under the current administration. Idiot.
Posted by: Brambleton | May 16, 2007 11:17 AM
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He was a wonderful mouthpiece for bringing brainwashed so-called christians or "Evangelicals" as some call them, into the skullduggery of supporting the fascist state of Israel.
Jude 1:11
Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
Using God, and the theology of God for personal profit.
"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"...Voltaire
Posted by: Peacetroll | May 16, 2007 11:16 AM
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How sad the death of the super rich. But where did all that wealth come from? Could it be tax free, tax deductible "gifts to God" collected at tax exempt facilities?
Picture Jerry standing before God. God says, "Jerry, where's all the money people gave to me that you collected and spent?"
Sale of soul to Devil is supposed to bring great wealth, however. The big money goes to those who lead the multitudes to hell. And it's worse yet. The victims of the Devil's "big con" pay the Devil's fee to those who do his work.
http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul AKA interpretation 1,501 of the Bible has the truth about the bigggest soul seller of all time, Moses. Moses is the biggest shot that ever lived, leader of the chosen people of God and founder of the three great faiths.
The simple question that one must answer before "putting the money on the plate" is: Was that really God in the ball of fire? After all, as everyone knows, hell is on fire and so is Lucifer the biggest Devil of them all. Lucifer is the Lord God of hell.
Good luck Jerry and all the faithful of the three great faiths. You're gonna need it. Maybe God will be too busy to notice you. Keep the faith for Lucifer just loves being worshiped, honored, adored, glorified and sacrificed to. Your sacrifices to God pays Lucifer's fee to his representatives, priests, preachers, rabbis and ayatollahs.
Posted by: BGone | May 16, 2007 11:04 AM
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Amy, I couldn't agree more. I remember Jimmy C. getting so mad at Falwell once he said he could go to hell!
I'm sure some of what Rick Warren says about the churches and ministries founded by Falwell is true, but boy oh boy did he cause a lot of damage.
I consider myself a born again Christian but I'd never count myself as a Falwell supporter. Frankly, I couldn't stand the guy, and I felt his involvement in right wing politics did more damage to the faith than good, by a longshot. He helped Republican politics more than anything and also helped brand Christians as rabid right wingers. Thanks a lot, Jerry.
And some of the statements he made (along with Robertson) just defy comprehension, from any perspective. Just plain stupid.
Posted by: Jake Means | May 16, 2007 10:57 AM
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Too bad he didn't promote charity instead of judgmentalism. His legacy is in what he did to our country. His theocratic objective overrides all the rest. He squirmed over the possibility that faith-based charities receiving federal money after Bush's term might be *gasp* muslim or Scientologist.
If I want to look to a Christian for a model of charity and compassion, Jimmy Carter would be at the top of my list. Jerry Falwell would be near the bottom.
Posted by: Amy | May 16, 2007 10:40 AM
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Falwell was the consumate Redneck Christian blowhard. An embarrassment to any American with a brain. (But remember, there are rather few of them.)
Posted by: candide | May 16, 2007 10:37 AM
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I'm sure he was very compassionate... provided you weren't black, or female, or gay, or any faith but his.
"I do not believe the homosexual community deserves minority status. One's misbehaviour does not qualify him or her for minority status. Blacks, Hispanics, women, etc are God-ordained minorities who do indeed deserve minority status."
"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."
Yeah, nice.
Posted by: Steve B, UK | May 16, 2007 10:21 AM
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I didn't know him, but the impression I got was that he was NOT compassionate; he was intolerant and judgemental. I got the feeling that he worshiped the vengeful, hateful God of the Old Testament rather than the loving God of the New Testament and Jesus. And if he was so concerned with helping the poor, why would he push the distinctly anti-Christian Republican policies? Like Bush's tax cuts, Reagan's tax cuts took money directly from the poorest of the poor and gave it to the richest of the rich. Reagan waged war in Nicaragua to put a murderous dictator back in power. How could a true Christian support such things?
Posted by: Fernando | May 16, 2007 10:08 AM
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The comments to this entry are closed.
REMEMBER: Voting for HilLlary Clinton, is same as re-Voting for Prez B. Clinton.
This is 'illegal' , aka PROXY President by Nepotism! Presidential 'Term-Limits' are being violated. Do not be Stupid! The Communist have infiltrated Sweet Sweet U.S.A's Government of 'THE PEOPLE!
So, Please do not vote for 'Hillary & Bill Clinton! Thank You!
IMPORTANT , Sweet Sweet America:
A Russian Communist Conspiracy in Sweet Sweet America "i" now EXPOSED!
HARK Humates of America!:
BEWARE:
Senator 'Chuck Schumer' (of N.Y., a 'Senior Senator) is been "BRIBED' by the RUSSIAN-INTERNATIONAL-MAFIA! Example:
He, Mr. Schumer et al, via "L*U*K OIL" got money from them, (via ex-'GETTY gas station(s) moguls, now turned "Russian Mafia Government Front" as Owners in America. Please call FBI & CIA!] and of Which "Chucky-Boy' Senator SCHUMER promoted , knowingly in such a great 'COMMY' Conspiracy!
Forgive me, but it is true!!!!!!!!!!
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"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blol owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blol owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blol owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blol owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blol owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blol owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blol owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"our comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner"
VOTE:
'NO' to News-Papers Company's owning {your Kids minds future & yours too] against them owning T.V Stations & Satellite Station!
SAY: 'NO' , via F.C.C., to News Paper Company's! 'NO' Broad Casting! Say or Vote, No!
And, Say 'NO' to allowing Religious Satellite Televangelical(s) to broadcast their 'EVIL' Anti-Society Story's & Behavior's too!
Thanks, Eclati-On (nevr Off's) American Mon's & Monsa's!
Take Back your almost Hijacked Nation! Take back Sweet sweet America! Now!