Evangelicals are Celebrating Obama, Too

"This means too that we do not all occupy the same place on the political spectrum."

You make this claim but provide no evidence to support it. Instead, you argue that Evangelicals do missionary and charitable work, both of which are beside the point.

For a self-proclaimed philosopher, you reason poorly, indeed.

Evangelicals as a part of diversity is like saying Mormons are a part of tolerance.

ARMINIUS

Hi, good to hear from you.

Whether I post in reply to someone, to make a comment to someone or just a post in general, all of my posts are for all.

When I say that I have been chosen by God to speak, I am just stating a fact. Many people take that statement many different ways and that is fine, like I have said, just trying to do what I have been asked to do.

There is a statement in the bible in which Jesus says, "When the son of man comes, will he find faith", this "son of man" could be someone other than Jesus since we are all sons and daughters of man [mankind], something to think about.

This "faith" that Jesus refers to I take to mean as "Faith in God" as opposed to faith in religion, faith in spirituality, faith in faith, faith in technology, faith in medicine, faith in ..., the list is pretty much endless.

One day ALL will know that God's Plan is something to be thankful for.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas Baum,

Hello again. I agree with your post in reply to Spidey's hatred, but I fear it will fall on deaf ears. I and others have tried, and failed. He truly walks in darkness.

SPIDERMAN2

You wrote, "And yes, in your bible, Bin Ladin and all mass murderers in history like Hitlet have a seat in Heaven."

First off, I look past heaven to the Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth which will arrive on the seventh day.

What you wrote is exactly what gets a lot of "Christians" upset in that God really did not ask us to be better than Him.

LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.
FORGIVE ALL.
HOW MANY TIMES? unlimited
JUDGE NO ONE, The measure that you judge with will be the measure that you are judged with.
IF I BE LIFTED UP, I WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO MYSELF. Did Jesus say how or when or even that it would be this side of the grave?
FATHER FORGIVE THEM, no asterick.
IT IS FINISHED. Which translates as "paid in full".

I imagine that there are some people that do not believe in God that would also get upset that God is so much better than some that know His Name think that He is and/or even want Him to be.

We have free will and we will all be judged and if anyone happens to die and wake up in hell, they may not know it at first but when they come to realize that they built it themself, that realization will be even more devastating.

Did Jesus take the sins, All of the sins, of humanity upon Himself or didn't He?

For those of you out there that are afraid of the word "sin" how about wrongdoing.

I am not perfect, but if anyone of you out there think that you are PERFECT, don't take it up with me, I am just a messenger, you can take it up with God Who just happens to be a BEING OF PURE LOVE.

I cannot be thankful to a loser but I can be thankful to God since He is a Winner and His Victory is Total, it is for ALL OF HUMANITY, the captives shall be released and the dead shall rise, by the way those that go straight to heaven are neither captive nor dead.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

tHOMAS BAUM wrote "We are ALL God's children and God's brothers and sisters which makes ALL OF US brothers and sisters"

And yes, in your bible, Bin Ladin and all mass murderers in history like Hitlet have a seat in Heaven. You should watch cartoon movies where you don't misled people. Everything there is untrue just like you.

October105,

You are in need of some "Schillebeeckxing":

To with:

From the famous contemporary theologian, Father Edward Schillebeeckx:
from his book, Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

"Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history."

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

CCNL: Aside from the fact that you have a penchant for writing vitriolic drivel, I wonder how it is that you reconcile yourself to the fact that God is the greatest, most prolific and indescriminate abortionist of all time. Every hour of every day, God chooses, in His infinite wisdom, to terminate the lives of "womb babies" as you like to call them, for no apparent reason. Why would the God you claim to worship do such a dispicable thing? God violently rips babies from women's bodies all the time. He sometimes chooses to kill them as they are being born, or shortly before birth. How could you love such a God? Is He not evil and soaked in blood, as you claim the White House to be?

Reality 101:

Our presidential elections are now controlled by the Immoral Majority of from 70-90 million "mothers and fathers" of aborted womb-babies.

More commentary about the influence of evangelicals, Christians, Catholics, Jews and atheists on presidential elections is now simply a waste of time.

And to think BO collected over $640 million dollars, (~$64 million went to the not-so-ethical campaign managers/money collectors at ASK) when all BO had to do is announce his pro-choice and FOCA support. Contributors should request a refund

ThomasBaum :

Thank you for your kind words.

In my life, I have been lucky enough to get to know people from many different ethnic, national, and religious backgrounds.

In the followers of every belief system, I find compassionate and loving people mixed with those who are not compassionate and loving. And some, like what we read here often, who's comments are sophomoric.

jlouise

You wrote, "Well, I'm glad to see that some people can be just as mean as the evangelicals. At least they're not alone in their furor."
and
"All human beings deserve to be treated AND spoken to with respect and dignity - that includes homosexuals AND evangelicals."

You brought up some good points, one of which is, that if one is unwilling to listen to another, then they can not hear what someone else has to say, so they are deaf, so to speak, by choice.

Have you ever heard of this country referred to as a "melting pot"? Doesn't it seem more like a "simmering pot" at times?

Have you ever thought that some people look at others like they are a mirror instead of a person and what they don't like in that mirror is their own reflection?

We are ALL God's children and God's brothers and sisters which makes ALL OF US brothers and sisters, don't we seem to be rather unruly?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Mr. Mouw raises an excellent point. Evangelical Christians have concerns that reach far beyond the issues of Abortion and "Family Values" and that don't get much media coverage. It doesn't seem to me however, that the media is the culprit.

There has been a concerted effort on the part of Evangelical leaders and conservative politicians to stress the issues Abortion and "Family Values" far more than say, social justice or environmental stewardship. This was done not only for ideoological reasons, but political reasons as well.

The changes reflected in the 2008 election don't mean that Evangelical Christians have been regulated to the back of the bus, only that they're no longer driving it.

When I was in college there were a number of evangelicals in my dorm. They went about trying to convert everyone and anyone they could. They were unbelievably disrespectful of everyone else's right to believe something else or nothing at all. That was 20 years ago and to this day has colored my view of evangelical Christians.

I am glad to hear you speaking out for yourself. It is good to hear someone who actually cares for other people and wishes them well in stead of condemning them. However, I don't buy your position that you have no part in the things said and done in the name of Evangelicals. If you disapprove of the pastors and talking heads that claim to be evangelicals, you needed to have spoken out about it a long time ago. Just because you have all of the sudden become offended by what these people say doesn't make you completely innocent. We all need to watch out for people speaking "in our name." If you consider yourself part of a group, then take some responsibility for the actions and words of that group.

can you please define "traditional family values"? perhaps even with a nod to the phrase's historicity? thanks

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Very interesting stuff and very interesting values. I wonder if the expulsion of Palestinian Arabs is part of the Christian values, I wonder what if these Evangalicals have no value, I can see the Holocaust as a small summer camp for these Evangalicals. What follows is very frightining indeed.
http://www.theocracywatch.org/christian_zionism.htm#Likud

"In order to fulfill Biblical prophecy, Dispensationalists have been working hard to ensure that the world's Jews return to Israel and occupy all of Palestine. To facilitate that process, Dispensationalists have been leading groups of pilgrims to Israel since Falwell's first visit in order to win financial and political support for the Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The late Grace Halsell, author of Prophecy and Politics, participated in two Falwell-led pilgrimages to Israel in 1983 and 1985, and quotes a fellow Christian pilgrim on the tour:

"The Jews must own all of the land promised by God before Christ can return. The Arabs have to leave this land because this land belongs only to the Jews. God gave all of this land to the Jews." (p.87)

The late Ed MacAteer, considered to be the godfather of the Religious Right, talked about his expansionist dreams for Israel in an interview on CBS' 60 Minutes: Zion's Christian Soldiers.

"I believe that we are seeing prophecy unfold so rapidly and dramatically and wonderfully and, without exaggerating, makes me breathless. Every grain of sand between the Dead Sea, the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea belongs to the Jew." When asked if that includes the West Bank and Gaza, his answer was "Every bit of it."

Mr. Mouw, the troubling contradiction in your piece is the same contradiction that underlies all Evangelical opposition to gay rights: the Evangelical insistence on applying faith politically. You say you want civility in conversation, but you advocate the enforcement of intolerance. If you don't walk your talk -- or, if you prefer, if you don't practice what you preach -- how can you expect a civil response?

I am sorry you feel grumpy. But you espouse using the force of law and government to deny civil rights to some of our citizens. That, sir, will not stand.

Evangelicals believe in the authority of bronze-age text, this makes them delusional, by definition.

Evangelicals are like a cancer.

True, Evangalical Chrisitians and Zionist Jews are part of America so are Catholics, other Christian denominations, Muslims, Hindus and atheists, and yes Evangalical Christians and Zionists Jews do not have monopoly on the truth and do not have monopoly on God, certainly they do not have monoploy on virtues, and values. America is not a Judea-Christian country, it never was, it is a country of democratic values and systems. The 08 election is a proof that no one has a monopoly on family values as we have heard from these Evangalicals over the years as if other people of other faith have no family values.

I have no problem with the evangelicals as long as they stick to their knitting. My wife is a devoted Mormon, a highly evangelical faith. What I do not approve of is when zealots of any faith seek to use the machinery of government to enforce their own narrow viewpoints. Most of the sensible, tolerant, moderate people of this country are people of faith. But, large majorites of them do not approve of the more extremist brands on the right who seem intent on rejecting scientific advancement, forcibly teaching religious doctrines in our schools and insisting that those who do not accept their narrow belifs on Christianity are doomed to hell.

I have never thought of myself as having much in common with the white evangelicals about whom Mr. Mouw writes until I read his sentence, "(We are) people from a variety of backgrounds, experiences, and economic levels. We reside in urban and rural areas, and we live in countries across the globe. We represent every 'tribe and tongue.'" That's when it occured to me these words also describe the gay community. The only real difference I see is that in one community you choose your association, with the other community the association chooses you. Ask yourself which of the two would be easier to disassociate with and there I think you'll find one answer to the weakening of the evangelical movement.

With all due respect, your view is deeply misguided. I do not believe that there can be, nor should there be, a "civil" or genteel dialogue about homophobia, any more than you could kindly, and in a civilized manner try to convince me that slavery, apartheid, anti-miscegenation laws or segregation were justified. Your tone is irrelevant if your point is that gays are not fully human, not as capable of deep, abiding and life long love as the rest of us. If you are trying to convice me that God created us all equal (except for gays, who are less equal), than the kindness of your spririt, or the respectful tone of your words make no damn difference to me. You are a biggot. Plain and simple. You comfort yourself with the notion that by the accident of your birth and the choices you make in your life, you are more loving and more loved by God than someone else. I think that is dispicable, and I don't care what kind of shine or patina you put on it. As an African-American, I was almost more ashamed of my community for what it did in California, than I was proud of whites for what they did elsewhere. So long as religion is used as a reason to deny basic human equality, it is nothing but a destructive force in this world to be viewed with all manner of disdain.

This is one evangelical Christian who grieves, not celebrates, the election of a man who in his 2007 speech, Call for Renewal, twisted scriptures (falsely stated that the Bible condoned slavery and endorse the stoning of children for leaving their faith) and led the fight for dispicable form of infanticide -- denying medical care to infant survivors of abortions -- while an Illinois St. Senator. I just can't wait for the encore. And don't forget that this newspaper called evangelicals "poor, uneducated and easy to command." No, we have nothing really to be excited about.

i feel that i would be more amenable to the positions put forth in this article if it were not for the machinations of sarah palin and by extension, the mccain campaign, using the time honored rhetoric of divisiveness, anger, and hate to further their aims.

the evangelical 'right' has earned, and rightfully so, the reputation of touting intolerant, judgmental, and 'righteous' stances that have done nothing to unite our country.

their hyper focus on "social issues" has led us to where we are today. education is a sign of elitism, an individuals ability to lead is determined by the church he attends and the beliefs that he holds dear as opposed to his inherent decency, awareness of the issues and his ability to bring the people together.

i, for one, am sick of, and embarrassed by the "religious wrong."

It is never right to attribute characteristics of a few who speak loudest for a group to the whole group. But the impression that the spokesmen for this subset of Christians give is that they seem to always have to demonize someone outside. Certainly for the longest time it was the blacks as the churches in the south were totally segregated. I remember when I was a boy, they were the very people who opposed the Catholics and their schools. They claimed Catholics were un-American because they did not send their children to mix with other American kids. BUT as soon as schools were ordered to desegregate, up popped their so-called "Christian" schools so that their children would not be in mixed race schools and all of a sudden their rhetoric changed and they went from opposing government aid to religious schools to favoring it. They had to get another group to pick on and now I suppose it is the gays. As I said, this should never be said to apply to everyone, but there is a certain trend in leadership epitomized by people like Bob Jones (very anti-Catholic things on web site until many were pulled down over publicity, did not allow interracial dating, etc.) that probably give these people a bad name. So I think if the people you represent would speak up and condemn these folks, then they would be more accepted.

Well, I'm glad to see that some people can be just as mean as the evangelicals. At least they're not alone in their furor.

Come now, isn't Dr. Mouw correct that there might be a common ground where we could at least talk with (not at) each other? This kind of dialogue is destructive - just look at Rwanda, Uganda, Sri Lanka, Congo, Sudan, etc. Do we really want to go that direction? All human beings deserve to be treated AND spoken to with respect and dignity - that includes homosexuals AND evangelicals.

Mouw said "These efforts and more are motivated by a desire to respond obediently to the call of the Gospel..."

so finally ONE evangelical dares to admit the truth - churchies don't do "good works" because they are decent people with compassion for those in need. Oh, no...they do them because God told them to and they are, if nothing else, obedient to the Big Spankin' Daddy in the Sky.

maybe one day Man will throw off these chains of superstition and do good simply for the satisfaction of doing good.

America received a heavy taste of "evangelical" when Bush was campaigning for President (both times) and when Bush needed support to invade Iraq. It seemed during this sector of the Bush era, evengelicals did believe they were the "chosen" ones and those of us with diverse beliefs were the evil factor. Ghandi said he liked Christ, Christ was good. He didn't like Christians, they were not like Christ. Evangelicals created diversity and relished the idea they were superior in America's diversity. Yes, there are some evangelicals who can embrace diversity without hate and rancor. But then, I wonder if they are considered "real" evangelicals by the larger group(?)

Demagoguery and homophobia is exactly what the Bush administration, and the Republicans generally, have rallied behind in order to attract the rural vote. Evangelicals are so desperate to be victims that their claim against that the right of gay and lesbian people to marry is that it discriminates against the god-given evangelical right to discriminate.

But really, all this wouldn't have anything to do with the various polygamy, pedophilia and prostitution scandals plaguing the major evangelical Christian churches though, would it? Maybe evangelicals think that if they stoke the fires of homophobia everyone will forget about the rampant abuse of the poor children in their care.

So many of the evangelical flock react with anger and outright hatred for anyone who disagrees with them that your movement has lost people to very unchristian behavior.

I'm never going to agree with the idea of outlawing abortion, most especially in the case of rape or incest, or worse, rape AND incest. I find too much intervention in this issue unseemly, inappropriate, and in too many cases of protesting zealots, evil. Not that I like abortion by any measure, but I understand the basic biology well enough, and can count well enough, to know that a blob with less living cells in it than a zit is not a person.

I also can't see getting on a high horse about abortion given the amount of children, and adults, that die every moment from treatable diseases, and just bad water. How about we address abortion after we've saved the living? I'd be far more interested in solutions to that problem after priorities that are clearly far greater have been addressed. One issue voting over abortion, in the face of the worlds ills is hypocritical behavior of the most blatant kind, yet too many evangelical 'leaders' beat the drums of war over this one issue. It's so obviously wrong that most voters can see it, and are sick of the narrow-issues gridlock.

What percentage of your faculty at Fuller are not White males, middle aged or older? For that matter, what percentage of your student body are not.

I bet if you have any minority students at all, they are foreign students.

You guys kill me. Literally.

Our War on Terror and Aggression-

An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent the USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops (3,388 combat 805 non-combat) and 88,851 – 96,976
Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Our War on Terror and Aggression cont.

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Recently Libya agreed to pay $1.5 billion to the victims of their terrorist activities Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they have threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! Or is he???

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel hopefully a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

5. North Korea was taken off the terrorist country list recently.

6. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

7. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

8. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

9. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

10. Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

11. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

12. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

13. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

14. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends. Radovan Karadzic was finally captured on 7/23/08 and is charged with genocide, crimes against humanity and violations of the law of war -- charges related to the 1992-1995 civil war that followed Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from Yugoslavia.

15. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

For crying out loud! Evangelicals guided by their wise and loving leaders handed "the bush"
(torturer, murderer, liar, renditioner, destroyer of our economy and the justice department, despot to New Orleans), our country TWICE. Take a look around and see what you've done.

Not TOO many hard feelings on my part! Welcome to the semi-rational world that most of us live in. I guess an awakening is better late than never!

OK, NEW DEAL, I'm letting all this crap, and resentment go; so that maybe we can save the coutry, bring a semblance of peace to the world and live like were country men and women once again. YES WE CAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am not sure that Dr. Mouw is exactly paradigmatic of what many right-wing Sarah Palin-esque types would call an "evangelical." The term itself seems to be a fairly self-referential code word for creationist homo-hating gun-clinging undereducated born-againers.

Dr Mouw asks: "Were these commentators really listening when President-elect Obama called for the kind of civility that really listens to folks with whom we disagree?"

This is typical right-wing Christian victimhood. Sure, he wants civility when he feels attacked by the voices of progress. But where was this civility when the citizens of California were called upon to protect the right of their gay and lesbian neighbors to marry? Civility works both ways, Dr Mouw, and it's time for evangelicals to acknowledge that while they have every right to their own beliefs, they have no right to trample on the dignity and humanity of "folks with whom they disagree" either.

I try to appreciate, respect, and even learn from the views of other people. Admittedly, I am not consistent, never mind perfect in my attempt. In this regard, I can't bring myself to believe that evangelicals are part of the wonderful diversity of our nation and world when their goal is to eliminate that diversity, not just for their form of Christianity, but for all the social and family implications that stem from it. Men are the leaders, women subservient, you all know the rest.
Sorry, but until they renounce that smug sense of superiority, and actually affirm that other views of life are equally valid, I will not really be able trust what they say, and will always suspect and ulterior motive.

Well, so-called "Christian" evangelicals espose some of the most hateful, intolerant and narrow-minded views I have ever heard. They claim to be "pro-life" at conception, but yet stop worrying about the child and its welfare at birth. They preach "death penalty" at every turn and are the some of the strongest supporters of Bush's illegal war for oil in Iraq. They hate gays, trash science and generally want everyone to behave exactly like them or call them un-American or un-Patriotic.
Sorry, go back to your compounds. Our country is not your church, your intolerance puts the lie to your "faith" and we are not interested in going back to the 17th century.

Well, so-called "Christian" evangelicals espose some of the most hateful, intolerant and narrow-minded views I have ever heard. They claim to be "pro-life" at conception, but yet stop worrying about the child and its welfare at birth. They preach "death penalty" at every turn and are the some of the strongest supporters of Bush's illegal war for oil in Iraq. They hate gays, trash science and generally want everyone to behave exactly like them or call them un-American or un-Patriotic.
Sorry, go back to your compounds. Our country is not your church, your intolerance puts the lie to your "faith" and we are not interested in going back to the 17th century.

hey spidey, screw your god.

"Likewise, their men have given up natural sexual relations with women and burn with lust for each other. Men commit indecent acts with men, so they experience among themselves the punishment they deserve for their perversion." (Romans 1:27)

Evangelicals BELIEVE the word of God. People who don't should expect the SURE punishment that's coming. God does not lie and it's coming. Just be patient.

911 was just an advance warning from God. A bigger one that will burn this world is in the offing. Global warming? That would become the least of your worries. Global burning, it is.

"What is the total number of legal abortions since 1973?

As of the most recent update of this FAQ, the estimated total number of abortions is over 46 million.

Source: Finer LB and Henshaw SK, Estimates of U.S. Abortion Incidence in 2001 and 2002, Alan Guttmacher Institute, 2005 [PDF], accessed May 17, 2005"

Also see the CDC Abortion Surveillance reports

e.g. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5609a1.htm?s_cid=ss5609a1_e#tab2

Table 2

We all fall into the trap of stereotyping, and I suppose that most members of the media are anti-evangelical and lukewarm on God at best. They too often negatively characterize Christian believers as a monolith.

Brother Mouw, maybe you are different, but having sat in many a pew in majority white evangelical churches I seriously doubt that many are celebrating the miracle represented by the election of a black man as president of America. If they were that excited about it they would have voted for him.

Far too many Christians think that anyone who is poor in this country is a sinner and/or lazy; and far too few go on mission trips.

St. Francis of Assisi said, "Preach the gospel at all times, and when necessary use words."

He meant that we are to do good works for the least among us constantly--which is what the gospel teaches.

We Christians spend far too much time talking (and voting) and not enough time doing.

awayne the "final solution" you claim we want is just another example of christian hatred of those who aren't christian.

Do you know what we really want? We want religion to die of old age due to lack of interest, to go extinct on its own - just as many religions have already done. How many people still worship the roman or greek gods, the egyptian gods of the pharoahs ...? Those religions died off ... though perhaps it was because more modern religions replaced them.

Nobody wants to make this happen by using external pressure. It would be nice to live long enough to see this happen.

Bravo, Richard Mouw, for offering an olive branch. Your work is cut out for you. Unfortunately, evangelicals of all stripes will have to bear the responsibility for the exclusionary, distorted and hateful campaign waged to get Prop. 8 passed in California. I would be willing to discuss the legalization of marriage for gays being a matter for the states, but the issue was driven by out of state entities (and their money) led by Dobson, Land, et.al.; and the Mormon and Catholic churches. The impact of this national campaign was also felt in Florida and Arizona. By all indications, it won't stop there. The argument has been that gays and lesbians who wish to consecrate their union before God according to their faith (whether in a church or not) somehow threaten the marriages, children and churches of evangelical religious conservatives. This line of rhetoric fails to follow reason. If these are indeed matters of faith, then let's keep them matters of personal faith and out of the arena of public policy. Otherwise, public policy dominated by religious dogma makes our society no longer one that traditionally tolerates diversity, but an un-American one that more resembles the tyranny of a Taliban. Keep working on building those bridges, Mr. Mouw.

With over five hundred American Indian cultures,
alone, each culture has its own set of spiritual beliefs and gods.
Is their cultural religious respect currently for all in our nation?

For far to long the right wing has pushed for its view of god, its lord.

Neoconservatism rides the coat tails of this theology...
They advocate pro-life without watching out for the middle class all the while
advocating wars based on GOP subversion and duplicity that have killed hundreds of thousands of people- men, women, and children.
This is the reality of it. If you believe in pro-life fine but how can you condone
the politics of greed , war and subversion and say that your god is the lord we as a nation adhere too?
I believe this is as unchristian as one can be!

There is justified focus and worry about Evangelicals because they, of all religious groups in America, have brazenly sought the levers of government power. Thanks to the Bush administration we have had a brush with theocracy, and most Americans recoiled from it. For some of us, including many Christians, this brush with theocracy was terrifying.

The issue isn't merely that many Evangelicals have, historically and in this decade, made their beds with racists, hate groups and extremist tax protestors who want to tear down American as we know it.

I would be just as worried by conscientious liberal Christians if they really lusted after political power.

What Richard Mouw seems not to have come to terms with is that Christians are at their WORST when they are extremely powerful.

Power corrupts, and power seems to corrupt Christians faster than anybody -- one only needs to review the record of the Christian Republican Congress that very quickly became the most corrupt Congress in history.

It is not just un-American for religion to assume the power of the state. It is contrary to the essence of Jesus Christ for there to be a state religion. That's the part the Evangelicals always seem to miss.

To give one example, when James Dobson preaches that homosexuals should be treated like lepers by their own families, those views are despicable but he is acting within the traditions of the First Amendment. But when Dr. Dobson accumulates so much money and power that presidents and presidential candidates kowtow to him and his extremist views, that is contrary not only to our Constitution but to the essence of Christianity in the Gospels.

Evangelicals should keep their beliefs to themselves and disappear from national politics. We would all be better off..........

FRIENDENEMY

You wrote, "Thank you for trying to bridge the space that divides us all.

Agnostic and athiest Americans are hard-working, moral, and patriotic.

Please help stop people who use the word athiest as an example of a bad person...we have children who we love..."

It seems to me that you read the post and actually thought about it. Have you read any of the other comments?

If you have, you should be able to see that it doesn't matter what label one puts upon oneself or even what someone's belief or non-belief in God is, for some people to actually listen to what someone else has to say either in person or in print.

For someone to say ALL [fill in the blank], think this way, act this way, believe this way, is bigotry of the first degree in different clothing, usually but maybe not always they can be quite self-rightous and think that they know how others should live their life and can be quite ready to condemn others for not being a clone of themself and their beliefs or non-beliefs.

I happen to know that God is real and that satan is real but it doesn't matter if people believe me or if they believe that God chose be to speak for Him.

There will be some, I have no idea how many, that are in for quite a shock when they find out that God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

For some it will be quite a nice shock, so to speak, for others it will be quite an unnice shock, so to speak.

It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

I wish you and your family well and it seems like you know the difference between a dialogue and a double monologue.

If God was even remotely like what some people seem to think that He is, there is no way I would want to have anything to do with Him.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Well said, but you will soon find that the left wing in America is absolutely filled with haters who would launch a "final solution" of the "evangelical problem" if they could. Just read these Washington Post or the New York Times feedback areas sometime, and they come out of the woodwork.

I'm just saying it would be better if evangelicals were marginalized, like they once were.

Evangelicals have made our country weaker, and the world laughs at us because of them and their influence.

Hey Apple92681: You said - I'm an educated, Native American, registered Democrat who also happens to be an Evangelical. My faith in the Creator has always inspired me to be a servant of my fellow man and to love those I come in contact with. I don't agree with abortion and I am not fond of homosexuality, but I do not believe in casting judgement on women who've had abortions or being unkind to homosexuals.

It sounds like your mission schooling has proven quite effective. It's baffeling to see how you could embrace the evangelicals and manifest destiny, the same group who's foundational beliefs were the justification for the wholesale slaughter of your people and the dismanteling of your society. I believe it's called ethnocide. Choose your own voice and speak for yourself, your better than to be a puppet for the biggoted evangelicals.

You replied: Oh, really?

So, Evangelicals (aka Christians) are inferior when compared to others from any other religion or non-religion?

You also want to "purge" America of this cancer, making our country "stronger"?

And what would you call this lovely plan of yours? The Final Solution?

The world already had one of these campaigns in the past century. It didn't work out too well for a lot of people. But, hey, I guess Hitler was just misunderstood, right?

My comment: No, we could call it the reformation, or maybe the inquisition. Stay out of others people's lives and live your own.

Evangelicals cancelled themelves out of the election.

President-elect Obama rode to the Blood-Red House on the backs of 35+million aborted womb-babies!!!

(The fastest growing USA voting bloc: The 70 million "mothers and fathers of aborted children" whose ranks grow by two million per year.)

i.e. the Immoral Majority now rules the land and will do so in the foreseeable future. How very sad and disturbing!!!

EWEMMELMAN wrote:
Evangelicals tend to have less education the average American, and GW and Carter are perfect examples of what can happen when we elect evangelicals to high offices.

The sooner we can purge the evangelical influence from America, the stronger our country will be.
----------------------------

Oh, really?

So, Evangelicals (aka Christians) are inferior when compared to others from any other religion or non-religion?

You also want to "purge" America of this cancer, making our country "stronger"?

And what would you call this lovely plan of yours? The Final Solution?

The world already had one of these campaigns in the past century. It didn't work out too well for a lot of people. But, hey, I guess Hitler was just misunderstood, right?

evangelicals just need to go away.

Evangelicals tend to have less education the average American, and GW and Carter are perfect examples of what can happen when we elect evangelicals to high offices.

The sooner we can purge the evangelical influence from America, the stronger our country will be.

Mouw received his PhD in Philosophy from the University of Chicago.

Who is the more intolerant, the bigot or the one who calls him bigoted in a public forum?

White evangelicals hate the words "diversity" and "tolerance" like evil hates the light. Why would they be part of diversity when they abhorr it?

Evangelicals represent ignorance and arrogance in any community. Evangelicism is Bush forcing "democracy" on Muslim states where he has no authority. Evangelicism is believing you have a responsibility to convert others to the same beliefs you have. Evangelicism is overpowering, using abuse of power, to make other people something they are not, because you KNOW it is better. This kind of behavior is left over from the past, and we need to leave it behind in a civilized society.

How unfortunate and intellectually-vacuous that someone would attempt to lump all Evangelicals into one group.

I'm an educated, Native American, registered Democrat who also happens to be an Evangelical. My faith in the Creator has always inspired me to be a servant of my fellow man and to love those I come in contact with. I don't agree with abortion and I am not fond of homosexuality, but I do not believe in casting judgement on women who've had abortions or being unkind to homosexuals.

I just wish some people would educate themselves before they make spiteful, innaccurate remarks that are mere generalizations.

President Obama answers to a Higher Power -- the same one that I answer to, fortunately. And, for that, I am ever-thankful!

"I, for one, have been deeply involved in interfaith dialogue--an activity that has become increasingly important in recent years at Fuller Seminary, the school that I help to lead. We have been building friendships with many folks with whom we disagree on issues of faith: Jews, Mormons, Muslims, as well as people who claim no faith at all."

Thank you for trying to bridge the space that divides us all.

Agnostic and athiest Americans are hard-working, moral, and patriotic.

Please help stop people who use the word athiest as an example of a bad person...we have children who we love...

Oh please. You cannot erase 8 years of evangelical racism, political deamonizing, cultural war and governmental interference by now saying you are nice people. Evangelicals are a cult with a "painted bird" view of America, meaning that evangelicals feel they are being attacked from America from all sides and so must defend themselves at all costs.

Maybe this strange acceptance of Obama's victory is just more of the same, doing and saying anything and at any cost to advance the evangelical agenda. But America will not be fooled again. Evangelicals are out, in the cold, where they put themselves by losing the cultural war they started. We all reap what we sow, and evangelicals sowed hatred, misinformation and hypocracy, and now find themselves in a powerless wilderness. Time to repent and pray, not for Obama but your yourselves.