A Need for "Convicted Civility" in our Dialogue

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Here's some interesting reading on the origins of the Mormon Church:

http://www.irr.org/mit/Book-of-Abraham-page.html

Anyone interested can read all about Joseph Smith's "translation" of an Egyptian papyrus into Mormon "Pearl of Great Price" scripture "The Book of Abraham" and the assessment of Egyptologists of this "translation." Joseph Smith's work owes everthing to his own creative abilities, not any translating abilities as he claimed. The papyrus translation is a complete fraud. Any assessment of the theological ideas that Joseph Smith put forward must be looked at in light of who he was. As his translation has proven to be false, this does irreparable damage to Joseph Smith's standing as a prophet of God.

Let's go back and consider Christianity's origins:

Could members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) be more "authentically Christian" than Evangelicals? . . Oral traditions of Jewish and early Christian temple worship and portions of the Apocrypha referred to “mysteries”:

Early Christian churches, continued the Jewish temple worship traditions:
1) Baptism of youth (not infants) by immersion by the father of the family
2) Lay clergy
3) Anointing with holy oil after baptism
4) Then clothing in white clothing

An early Christian Church has been re-constructed at the Israel Museum, and the above can be verified. http://www.imj.org.il/eng/exhibitions/2000/christianity/ancientchurch/structure/index.html
.
And read Exodus Ch 29 for Aaron and his sons” ordinances. . Jewish Temple practices were continued by Christians prior to the time of the Emperor Constantine [see St. Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386 A.D.) Lecture XXI]. . . Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred, and not allowing non-Christians to witness them

A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ being separate, divine beings, united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration?

The Nicene Creed”s definition of the Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin. The scribes embellished on a passage explaining the Trinity, which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The oldest versions of the epistle of 1 John, read: "There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one."
Scribes later added "the Father, the Word and the Spirit," and it remained in the epistle when it was translated into English for the King James Version, according to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Chairman of the Religion Department at UNC- Chapel Hill. . . .He no longer believes in the Nicene Trinity.

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) have concern for their ancestors” spiritual welfare, so they practice proxy baptism. (1 Corinthians 15:29 & Malachi 4:5-6).

Only members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continue these practices of First Century Christians. The Cross became popular in the Fifth Century A.D. But Mormons don”t term Catholics and Protestants “non-Christian”. The dictionary definition of a Christian is “of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to a religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ”:. All of the above denominations are followers of Christ, and consider him divine, and the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament.

It”s important to understand the difference between Reformation and Restoration when we consider who might be the more authentic Christian. If members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) embrace early Christian theology, they are likely more “Christian” than their detractors.

* * *

And the National Study of Youth and Religion done by UNC-Chapel Hill in 2005 found that Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) youth (ages 13 to 17) were more likely to exhibit these Christian characteristics than Evangelicals (the next most observant group):
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LDS Evangelical
Attend Religious Services weekly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 71% . . . . 55%
Importance of Religious Faith in shaping daily life –
extremely important . . . 52. . . . . . 28
Believes in life after death . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 76 . . . . . . 62
Believes in psychics or fortune-tellers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . 5
Has taught religious education classes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 42 . . . . . . 28
Has fasted or denied something as spiritual discipline . . . . . . . . . . . .68 . . . . . . 22
Sabbath Observance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 67 . . . . . . 40
Shared religious faith with someone not of their faith . . . . . . . . . . . . 72 . . . . . . 56
Family talks about God, scriptures, prayer daily . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50 . . . . . . 19
Supportiveness of church for parent in trying to raise teen
(very supportive) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .65 . . . . . . 26
Church congregation has done an excellent job in helping
Teens better understand their own sexuality and sexual morality . . . 84 . . . . . . 35

Which fairy tale to believe; no truth anywhere in the Abrahamic fables; Mr Smith adds ridiculus upon the absurd;they all defend their blindness by living in the darness of their ignorance; A conversation on religious faith of different sects is a futile somewhat akin to the blindmen discussing their collective experience of a single contact with the elephant of unlimited possibilities.

Not too long ago, I pointed out that "global trash talking" through news mediums was increasing global poverty. As Iran and Washington, D.C. exchanged threats, price per barrel of oil increased. As price per barrel of oil increases, poor countries are made to be poorer. Transportation costs through logistics of feeding poor increases. So sending wheat or rice to a nation starving increases accordingly.

However, I am of the opinion that there are no shortcuts. Perhaps, taking each others inventories is part of resolution of conficts of civil discourse. And maybe focusing on negative qualities without listing positive attributes is counter-productive to community building, the heart of civility.

For example, Certain political and religious entwined leaders reject western behaviors. If all western products and services are to be rejected then let's consider the list. Of course first that comes to mind is the toilet or bidet. Next comes electricity. Of course telephone and television must be rejected. It is a no brainer that sattelite news as well as cellphones must be outlawed. And lastly on the list those rejecting western influence must stop reading this post right now and smash the computer used to access the world wide web.

I would consider that resolution of conflict is mush like a committment to mairrage. That for better or worse, problems will be resolved without a disunion. That anger is to be tolerated. That violence is totally unacceptable. And that some issues will be unresolved but will not impede the growth of the union. In otherwords, mairraige vowels set basis to resolutely maintain communion which supports a nucleous of community maintaining civility on a micro-level.

Next I could go onto expand on benefits of committed relationships through marraige with faithfulness which deters spreads of diseases such as aids and offspring which carry communal good to next generation. I will not expand this analogy to marraige because I have learned the benefits of marraige the hard way. And some may never learn, destined to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

There is something to be said about veiled societies. Perhaps I will join the confessions of President Carter, I have sinned in my mind. Progress, not perfection, grammar and spelling corrections optional.

Nearly 21 years ago, a wonderful family from Montana moved to Utah and became our next door neighbors. Though we are active in the Mormon faith, we learned from these amazing born-again Christian neighbors, we had more in common than we had in differences...not in doctrine, but in the values we both shared.

We were neighbors only a short time, but our friendship has endured for over two decades. We continue to be a part of each others' lives, as we pray for each other and our families, and stay in touch. When we are together, we just pick up where we left off.

The secret to our long lasting friendship? We respect each other's faith, dwell on our common threads, and love one another...unconditionally.

People need to realize that neither the Bible, nor the Koran, nor the LDS doctrine was inspired by God or anyone else than those who wanted to ensure that their legacy was listened to. Thus the references the Almighty.

Why are you so wrought up in a man-made religion. Can you not feel the infinite in your own hearts?

Do you really need some scripture from some individual from 1 or many centuries ago to make you feel good about yourselves?

All I need is to look out the window or in the mirror and realize that I am part of a greater being. I don't tythe a church, but give in many other ways, financially and spiritually.

I respect my fellow creatures, human and non-human, to be something to protect and nurtured.

Go and look in the mirror, not to see your outer shell, but to see your heart, look deep inside you and you will not need scriptures. If you despise what you see, change it. If you like what you see continue on your path.

Ransom, looks like you just have comments for everyone... just wondered, are you commenting on your own dime? or your employers?

Being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and not living in a part of the world where there are a lot of fellow-members of the church around, I can only say that people should behave, or be civic, in their contacts with others. Mormons should not judge others and others should not judge Mormons Open dialogue based on mutual respect is the only way to deal with each other. Respect is to be deserved, so treat others as you would like others to treat you. In this sense Dr. Mouw, probably of the same Dutch descent as I, spoke true words

Hooray Hooray - thank you Dr Mouw !

as a new reader of these blog comments, and a very active Latter-day Saint (and someone who reveres Christ and His teachings) and also has a very open mind to to the truths found in all faiths, I was beginning to think that ALL evangelical Christians were either wacko or at best just plain ignorant !

So it was thrilling to hear a considered and thoughtful expression of outreach to the Mormons.

Good on you Reverend !

((((((((((((( Peace-Love-Rock and ROMNEY! )))))))))))

yes while Love is one of the greatest gifts, if not the most important, it is also good to remember that if you Love Christ the Messiah and do not stand up for that love than you are guilty of being a hypocrite...but on the flip side I realize that shouting how much you love Christ the Messiah is great, beating your head against a wall is a waste of time, so take the love and sow some seeds elsewhere...

See all ya'll in Heaven Praise be to Chrsit the Messiah, who Loved us so much he allowed himself to be sacrificed on our behalf...I wouldn't have been so Great..Thank You Christ!!

Dr. Mouw, thank you for your kind remarks. You and Ransom understand the great truth in life. Frank hasn't got a clue. Love is the ultimate Truth.

It is refreshing and encouraging to see interfaith dialogue growing more thoughtful and respectful. I have always found it strange that religion (an institution which seeks to develop our love for God and our fellow man) can arouse such powerfully divisive emotions.

I'm a mormon, and enjoy rich friendship with individuals from different cultures and religions. Religious enmity is usually founded in either fear or arrogance.

The words mormon, baptist, muslim, atheist, democrat, republican, should never become lines in the sand. We should never let points we disagree on overshadow the precious connection we share members of the same human family.

hey, I know all ya'll are wrapped up in Mormon vs Mainstream Christianity, but seriously does anyone else have any idea what that ECLATi thing is about, I have read alot about Mormonism, and respectfuly I choose to decline on the subject..I think that as long as 'people' are willing to fight over ideals that they themselves didn't write or even consider to be written by their own Prophets (the Jews towards their own, Christians of diffrent cultural influences, the sects of Islam, Mormons also towards eachother) that veiws will always be skewed..No one can 'change' someone's veiws, only God can, so let's just say 'Love thy Neighbor'...well unless they steal your lawn equipment...that stuff is the important thing be a person of Servitude not Attitude!!!

LOve all you guys and women see ya'll hasta mannana..

-ransom-

steph
you should also have the right to NOT LISTEN TO.
the right of free speech does not guaranteee you an audience.

Dr. Mouw quotes Martin Marty "people who have strong convictions are often not very civil, and people who are civil often do not have strong convictions." Frank above asks a good question, "there is no mention or apparent concern for truth."

I have struggled with this very question. To become overly accomomodating is to run the risk of diluting the truth. Prophets have always gone against the grain. On the other hand, how do we be firm in our convictions and yet respectful? I believe the answer lies in the methods. Do we spend our time tearing down others and seeking to make them "an offender for a word" or do we declare our message boldly? The Pharisees sought to "catch Jesus in His words". Then the introspection stops.

I believe Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley gave sound guidance that all of us should take on this subject:

"The world is constantly crowding in on us. From all sides we feel the pressure to soften our stance, to give in here a little and there a little.

We must never lose sight of our objective. We must ever keep before us the goal which the Lord has set for us.

To quote Paul:

“Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places” (Eph. 6:10–12).

We must stand firm. We must hold back the world. If we do so, the Almighty will be our strength and our protector, our guide and our revelator. We shall have the comfort of knowing that we are doing what He would have us do. Others may not agree with us, but I am confident that they will respect us. We will not be left alone. There are many not of our faith but who feel as we do. They will support us. They will sustain us in our efforts.

We cannot be arrogant. We cannot be self-righteous. The very situation in which the Lord has placed us requires that we be humble as the beneficiaries of His direction.

While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (LDS General Conference, Oct. 2003).

Being raised in the Mormon Church, I am happy to see Mormon beliefs being viewed along with other mainstream Christian Religions. It seems to me that Mormons have been viewed with too much ignorance, they are very much Christian, and I have found nothing that they teach that contradicts the Bible.

However, I do have to agree with the comment from above "Born Again Christian" and "Mike Parker" both. Mormons, like other Christian religions, have a tendency to compete and compare and "judge" amongst themselves, as well as against other religions....it's really a shame because there really couldn't be a more unchristianlike behavior than this, and it is in fact this that has turned me away from organized religion altogether.

I have found peace and comfort in seeing good examples of people who live "christlike" lives and don't discriminate against who is right or wrong or more or less deserving of understanding and compassion. I truly have found my peace and spiritual home in leaving Organized religion. The mistake that many religious people make is thinking that people who don't choose to belong to organized religion are somehow less spiritually inspired, or that their efforts are less valid.

It has taken me a long time, and still is a struggle for me to feel worthy of happiness, because so much of my life was spent trying to be perfect, and being judged by my fellow mormons for every lifes' mistake, as if they never made any. Jesus Christ was an incredible example of compassion and understanding....why don't more Christians try to emulate that instead of arguing over who knows more about what in regards to doctrine?

In the end I allowed myself to go along with something that the Mormon Church teaches....that you should listen to the spirit, which talks to you through peaceful and warm feelings that confirm truth and righteousness. I only feel that when I distance myself from Organized Christianity, and then allow myself to appreciate everybody for the good things they have to offer, regardless of religious affiliation.

I refuse to accept that God isn't first a loving, and compassionate God who more than anything wants us to do good to others and find happiness amongst all of our lives trials....I feel that he's going to pay more attention to that than he is to which religion baptized you and whether or not they had the authority to do so.

I think a concerted effort towards maintaining civil beliefs would be a better place to start.

At the heart of all of the various Abrahamic religions lies a small, mean, and poisonous idea: "My way is the right way and it is the only way. Those that don't accept it will meet some foul, terrible end."

As long as cultists permit their belief systems to be polluted with such uncivility, they have no right to expect civility.

I believe that if we are truly Christians we should be able to communicate without arguing. Jesus did not argue. Contention is of the devil. Mormons are obviously Christians by the name of the Church,but they don't claim to be perfect. We should be able to agree on some things and peacefully disagree on others.If we work at keeping the spirit of the Savior in our hearts, that should help us get along and do much good on this earth. There are plenty of bad things we should be focusing on instead of bashing other good people. We should be serving others. Our actions should show that we are Christians. I'm sure the Savior knows us by our deeds, words and attitudes. We should improve ourselves before we point an accusing finger, and then "love one another" as he has loved us. Right?!

Should Mormon neighbors, missionaries and friends invite you to learn about the Church. Yes, they can't help but share the most dear thing they hold.

Should you have the right to listen to and accept or reject the messge. Yes!

Should you all still remain friends? Absolutely, YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some who share the gospel may get offended or feel hurt when someone doesn't want to listen, etc. Those exposed to those who are sharing may feel offended or hurt when someone is sharing the gospel with them.

On each side of the equation, the individual may not know how to be around the person afterwards. It may seem awkward. We need to get past this and not be afraid to continue to interact with each other. I think some people just have bad social skills.

I’m an Evangelical Christian. I lived in Utah for 6 years. All my neighbors are Mormons except one or two. Being a non-Mormon, it is very hard to live in a Mormon neighborhood. I understand the need of being civil, so I extended my friendship to my neighbors, but your civility will be questioned when your Mormon neighbors want you to read the Book of Mormon and they want you to convert to their religion – not just from one neighbor but one after another. The talks between Evangelicals and Mormons are fruitless unless the ordinary believers and missionaries of both the religion understand the need of being civil.

I work with people who are Mormons in a professional environment. I would say they are the nicest people I have ever met. They contributed a lot to my family by helping in my career and personally. When my Mormon friends talk about their Church or religious matters in the work place when I’m around, I have seen they always make sure I’m not offended. They have more respect towards me for being a human being, for keeping ethics, and for being a Christian - but my Mormon neighbors or Mormon missionaries don’t think so.

I am concerned that in Mr. Mouw commments nor in any comments about his article that there is no mention or apparent concern for truth.

Thank you, Dr. Mouw. I was very impressed by your comments on the PBS documentary. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. One of our core beliefs is Charity never faileth, a true Christ like attribute to love our neighbors of all faiths with the pure love of Christ. Our Heavanly Father and his son Jesus Christ love us all equally. We all should emmulate this quiality no matter what our faith is. Thank you for your Charitable nature.

Thank you, Dr. Mouw. It is so easy for people, no matter who they are, to fall into the trap of antagonizing one another, and doing so prevents our dialogue from producing any positive results. I hope that we can all learn to be civil in our relations with others.

Where I am from in eastern Washington us Mormon's and Catholics are the mainstream, to me it seems to me that evagelicals are kind of a nondenominational conglamoration of non Baptist from the South. A group not very organized or together on what they believe. It would be very difficult to have dialogue with groups such as this. The Baptist for instance very largely in beliefs from one pastor to the next, you have fundamentalist Baptist and so forth. I am clueless on the togetherness of such groups with a wide variety of beliefs. With the LDS and the Catholics, you have no question where they begin and in the extent of their beliefs and it comes down to a question on who is right is it the Mormons or the Catholics. Both mainstream religions and both concrete and distinct in their beliefs in God. Thanks

Mr. Mouw:

Thank you for your above post. I agree that "convicted civility" is what we need. I think it is very rare that arguing and approaching topics in an aggressive manner will change a person's mind. I don't feel the need to argue about my beliefs as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints but I am happy to discuss it with anyone who is interested. We need to accept we have different beliefs, discuss those beliefs if it can be done calmly and with the intent to understand the other person, and then move on to "work together for the common good." Well said.

Dr. Mouw: Thank you for your kind comments in the Tabernacle and on the PBS broadcast. It's refreshing to see a leader in the evangelical movement speak with respect for the beliefs of Latter-day Saints, even while disagreeing with them.

I would hope that more Latter-day Saints would do the same in return. I, for one, have cautioned fellow Mormons not to make light of the Trinity or other orthodox Christian beliefs simply because we do not agree with them. There is a great temptation among Mormons to disparage much of Christian history just because it took place during the Great Apostasy (as we call it), when, in fact, it was Christianity (and particularly Reformed Christianity) that brought about our modern notions of human rights and human dignity.

I do not expect -- or hope -- Latter-day Saints will become evangelical/orthodox Christians, but it is important to tell the truth about, and find the good in, the faiths that are not our own.

"Convicted Civility"...Dr. Mouw will you bottle that and pass it around? Drink deep everyone..

I'm a heathen, and I think what's needed most for the organized, televized, evangelized whatevers out there is about 45% less airtime, and about 95% less church contributions. McJesus isn't going to save the planet, and there's plenty of religious charlatans out there playing their political games, the place where I used to work just hired one of these a-holes, and in my view, they need to be called on the carpet. For only thirty bucks, you, too, can become an 'ordained minister', and start collecting money from people in the name of God. See www.google.com for details! LOLOLOL Lord, save me from your fan club...

"Convicted civility," what a great concept. Thank you Dr. Mouw for your convicted civility in your relationship with Mormons. It's very refreshing and very Christian.

I want to echo these comments with my thanks for your generous and insightful comments on the PBS documentary The Mormons. They were even and rational and a model of civility.

Maurine Proctor

Very well said Sir. There is plenty of room for all the religions to exist peacefully with each other.

Mr. Mouw,

As a Mormon I was delighted to see you interveiwed on the PBS documentary. I have followed your ministry a bit, and listened to interviews you have given on various topics. I must say, you stand as an example to all who seek to follow the Savior.

If anyone could convert me to Orthodox Christian Evangelism its you! ;)

Indeed, a tone of civility and love is most definitely in need when discussion such deep religious topics. I hope that with the airing of the PBS documentary and the subsequent discussion it has already produced, those with any interest can seek commong ground of understanding and show mutual love and respect.

Dr. Mouw, thank you for your gracious comments in the documentary, "The Mormons," just broadcast. I have read about some of the opposition you have received within your own community for your reaching out to us within the Mormon community. Surely, however, even your detractors must admit that your ecumenical nature and attitude personifies Christ-like concern. Please know that it is appreciated within the Church of Jesus Christ.

Ken Kuykendall
MormonCentury.org