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Wonderful and thank you sir. Finally an irrational believer and a rational non-beliver readily agree. We both apparently share that innate sense of human "morality" (ethics) which is encoded in our dna and both predates and transcends all religious belief.

To Mr. Mark --

I never marched in the street or anything like that, but I remember being very concerned that our president would have the competence to deal with a very real threat. I also remembered the 2000 presidential debates, when Bush seemed way too eager to march into Iraq.

For my money, there were two reasons why Bush didn't invade Iraq in 2001. First, there were the disputes over the 2000 election; Bush knew that he couldn't call for a military action in such circumstances. The second reason was, of course, 9/11. Bush had to at least appear like he was trying to hunt down the prepetrators before he shifted focus to Iraq.

Sorry for the off-topic nature of this post. :)

To Mary C. --

You are right about the missionary work after the fall of Rome. However, it should be remembered that these missionaries tended to target the war-like kings and chiefs of the Germanic tribes, like the Frankish king Clovis, knowing that the Germanic loyalty to one's chief would lead thousands more to the baptismal fonts.

Candide, what you got against the folks in Baghdad? Aint they got enough trouble as it is?

Mary Cunningham, all you need do is change the name Jesus to Amenophis IV of Egypt and you got is as she said/did it. The Hittites overran Canan, Egyptian territory at the time and she didn't lift a finger in protest, refused all pleas for the Egyptian army to intercede. And she expressed dismay at a general who put down a rebellion in southern Egypt with a heavy hand, "the ban."

There's a lot more to that story but your post struck a nerve cell. Thought you might like to know.

Going to war needs to be smart??? If you win then you can ignore the moral element??? How can you say that?

Ignoring the moral element in declaring war is the GRAVEST of errors. War means killing and murder and killing is a crime and murder a sin, no matter how you linguistically dance around it.

You are killing opposing soldiers and your own soldiers deliberately and on a mass scale and failing to justify--or even examine--it is wrong, bad, evil, any word you care to use. Worse, you are killing civilians and very little justifies that.

But Candide, you are posting merely to make atheists look amoral, immoral and just plain bad. You can't fool me!

PS Thus the concept of a 'just' war was no mere academic point; for Augustine it involved the very existence of his beloved Christian religion in the Roman state.

The irony is that the ultimate conversion of Western Europe occurred despite the downfall of the doomed Roman Empire: peacefully, through the efforts of missionaries and monastics. So was St Paul so wrong in the long run? How many legions had St Benedict?

More important than whether this war was just is whether it was smart. Clearly not. Bush is a criminal and an incompetent. He needs to be tried and Saddamized. I'd send him to Baghdad!

Re: Any such thing as a just war?

The earliest Christians were pacifists and refused to serve in the Roman army. This changed with the conversion of Constantine when Christianity was not only tolerated but became the state religion. However, the empire--and the religion--was secure only in the East.

Church leaders and intellects like St Augustine (of Hippo) wrestled with the paradox of Christ's words and teaching against the need to defend their empire against increasing barbarian invasions. As the barbarians became more numerous and powerful the Roman empire in the West was unable to defend itself & fell in 460 AD. St Augustine died as the vandals were beseiging the very gates of his city.

I can see the gist of what the columnists are trying to say. But I am still left wondering whether there is a just war? Wars may be necessary, but a "just" war seems to be something of an oxymoron?

A very good column that raises important points that the MSM seems to ignore.

I was one of those 10% of Americans who never rallied around bush after 9/11. Maybe it was the fact that I lived in NYC for a long time and was living close enough to NYC on 9/11 to watch the smoke from the WTC ruins drifting past my home at the Jersey shore. Maybe it was the funerals that took place in the cemetary behind my home after 9/11 that led me to think, "this happened on bush's watch...damn him!"

In any case, I was one of those out in streets protesting when bush announced his intentions to invade Iraq. I was one of those writing letters to the local paper against bus, letters than earned me hate mail and threatening phone calls. I was the one ostracized by my neighbors for being "unpatriotic" and "naive." I distinctly remember a conversation I had with a soccer mom at the school bus stop when she said, "do you really think the president would lie to us about something as important as going to war?" My response was, "I'm older than you. I lived through Vietnam. I know that our government lies to us. I will tell you now that there are no WMDs in Iraq." She never spoke to me again.

So, the writer is correct in saying that the war was wrong from the outset. He is wrong in saying, "we should have anticipated this at the outset--that the invasion of Iraq would create a chaos that would be totally unmanageable," because some of us WERE saying exactly that from the outset.

Where I agree 100% with the writer is in his asking this question: ""How do we act honorably in dealing with the mess for which we are responsible?" I would say that war reparations are in order for Iraq from the USA. It may break our treasury, like it did Germany after WWI. But THAT, my friends, is the COST of blind patriotism put to the service of illegal wars of aggression! And if Americans have any REAL guts and aren't a bunch of cowards, we will own up to the mess we have created, the mess we cheerled ourselves into, and accept the judgement of the world upon us.

Jimmie, sometimes we need Devil on our side when He's clearly on both. We don't know for sure what the deal is only what we're told. We didn't know how serious things were with Japan, Dec 6, 1941 but the president, government in general did know something was up. The best approach is to keep government in check by not electing all the same "types." We seem to be getting there. I'm surprised by the latest move by the president but I know I don't know. Think of it this way. He's the only one of them we got. If he can't be trusted....

Surely it is immoral for a great power to invade a small relatively helpless country when that country is no danger to the great power. It should not need the teaching of any church for one to realize this.

Perhaps worse is that a risk verses reward analysis made Iraq a stupid undertaking from the beginning.

In the time leading up to the war I wrote to the local paper expressing my opposition and my concern over unintended consequences. Sadly the uninteded consequences have been far worse than I imagined.

I don't think we can ever compensate the Iraqie people for the misery we have caused them, but I think we have the duty to try. I certainly don't thik this administration is competent to do so.

Now also it is time for US to leave Iraq to the Iraqi people as what American wanted that acheived and completed the killing of Sadam .

If US continues its course in Iraq the result will be the same as the result of Russai .

No Christian. It cast doubts on the wisdom of faith in Devil. Folks with true faith in God know God is not going to help or guide them. That's what Devil does. Bush did what he WANTED to do and JUSTIFIED it by saying God said OK. Devil says OK no matter what it is. The bigger the screw up the more Devil likes it.

Mr Bush has faith in the being Moses made the deal with. You know, the one that lives in the fire that burns but does not consume. President Muow teaches the children that the being in that fire is God. Poor P Bush called Billy Graham in and got his facts from him then put the money on his plate on national television.

Review http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul and see if you agree that was God. A good healthy discussion of the facts always includes other opinions. What's yours? Was that God or Devil? You lucky dog. The whole story is a hoax so not to worry.

Laughter is in order though. PT Barnum said "there another sucker born each and every minute and here comes another one." PT sure knew his business. Don't you think?

Perhaps after Bush/Cheny are impeached, fine them hefty. They can use the profit money they have been getting from the oil and Haliburton.

Course this only answers for part of the problem.

When the president claims that his guidance on Iraq comes from a "higher father", it seriously casts doubt on the wisdom of faith.

Answer to your query. Historic double impeachment of President and Vice President. This will leave the Honorable Nancy Pelosi as President. Do a search on 'IMPEACH BUSH' and let's get to work saving this Country. It is not every generation that gets a chance to make this kind of difference. Let us make our parents and our children proud! Let us save God's Gift to this country, let us save the U.S. Constitution. NOW. People are dying. Please, move!!!

"One way to get your stubborn teenager to come out of his locked bedroom is to set the house on fire, but that would not be proportionate strategy. It seems clear now--and we should have anticipated this at the outset--that the invasion of Iraq would create a chaos that would be totally unmanageable."

Had one of these little junkyard dogs myself. No need to set the house on fire. Just turn off the electricity. Can't STAND not being in control.

"HEY, DID SOMEBODY FORGET TO PAY THE BILL??", comes the whine from the bedroom.....

"NO.." comes the adult's answer from the kitchen.

That's a good start.

I am an atheist and came to exactly the same conclusion for pretty much the same reasons. I would only add that in addition to being profoundly immoral, it is also a really big mistake (at least from the perspective of anyone other than a war profiteer, or possibly an Iranian hard-liner).