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Banishing the Green-Eyed Monster
"Is sex outside of marriage a sin? Is it a public matter? Is it forgivable?"
No, of course sex outside marriage is not a public matter, and yes, of course it is forgivable. Only a person infected by the sort of sanctimonious self-righteousness that religion uniquely inspires would apply the meaningless word 'sin' to private sexual behavior.
It is the mark of the religious mind that it cares more about private than public morality. As the bumper sticker slogan put it, "When Clinton lied, nobody died." Officially, Bill Clinton was impeached not for sexual misconduct but for lying about it. But he was entitled to lie about his private life: one could even make a case that he had a positive duty to do so. Tony Blair should have been impeached for lying to the House of Commons about alleged evidence for weapons of mass destruction, because his lies persuaded Members to vote for a war when they otherwise would not. Lying to Congress by saying, "I did not have sex with that woman" should not be an impeachable offense, because where a man puts his penis is none of Congress's damn business. Nor is it any journalist's damn business whether a politician once took drugs at university. Or whether he is gay.
And please don't say the right answer to an impertinent question about your private life is "No comment", because we all know how that would be interpreted. Telling a lie is often the only way to convey an effective "No comment."
A censorious culture in which public figures are forced to answer impertinent questions about their past, or their private affairs, would lead to open season on everybody. Who, if challenged with a point blank question, could honestly deny some secret from the past that they know society would condemn? What is more, the revolting hue and cry that our religiously inspired society habitually raises over private sexual 'morality' serves as a dangerous distraction away from important matters of public morality such as the Blair/Bush lies about Iraq’s weapons.
Now, here's a more difficult case. How about public figures lying about their religious affiliations? Shouldn't we refrain from prying into a politician's private religious views, just as we should refrain from prying into their private sexual behavior? Shouldn't public figures be entitled to lie about their religious affiliations (just like the many atheists that the laws of probability tell us must be there in Congress)? Not always. The reason is that religious views, even if they seem private in themselves, can become public in their implications. John F. Kennedy asked voters to believe that he would not take orders from the Vatican when formulating policy, and in his case they probably were right to do so. But George Bush has publicly boasted that God told him to invade Iraq, and his religious faith obviously inspired his irrational stances on stem cell research, the Terri Schiavo case and many others. To push to an extreme, who would deny Congress's right to ask whether a candidate for Secretary of Health is a Christian Scientist or a Jehovah's Witness? Or take a Christian sect that fervently desires the Second Coming of Christ, and believes the key Revelation prophecies cannot be fulfilled without a Middle East Armageddon. Would you wish the nuclear button to be made available to a follower of such a creed?
So much is obvious. However, following an excellent Slate article by Christopher Hitchens, I would go further. Mitt Romney, as a self-confessed Mormon, has stated his beliefs about the Second Coming as follows: "Christ appears in Jerusalem, splits the Mount of Olives and stops that war to kill the Jews. We also believe that over the 1,000 years that follow, the millennium, he will reign from two places: that the law will come from one place, Missouri; the other will be in Jerusalem." The thing about Missouri, you see, is that it is the site (I’m not joking) of the Garden of Eden. Mitt Romney apparently believes that the Book of Mormon is the dictated word of God. The fact that Joseph Smith wrote it in 16th century pseudo-biblical English although he was a 19th century man marks him out – along with much else -- as a charlatan, yet Mitt Romney apparently is gullible enough to be taken in by the scam. After Smith “translated” them, the gold tablets containing God’s words conveniently shot off to Heaven before anybody else could examine them. If a man is gullible enough to believe that, would you trust him to negotiate on your country’s behalf in the tough chancelleries of the world?
Smith’s book instructs Mormons to hold beliefs about human racial origins and about the history of America from 600 BC that are at worst racist and at best frankly bonkers. Are voters entitled to ask Mr Romney questions about his religious beliefs? Surely yes, if they affect his policies, for example over race relations: the Mormon Church banned black people from its equivalent of a priesthood until as late as 1978 (when Mormon Elders conveniently had a "revelation"). But going beyond direct influences on policies, would you wish to be governed by a man who has such a cock-eyed view of reality that he thinks the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, even if he keeps that cock-eyed view private?
Returning to the original topic of sex outside marriage, I want to raise another question that interests me. Why are we so obsessed with monogamous fidelity in the first place? Agony Aunt columns ring with the cries of those who have detected -- or fear -- that their man/woman (who may or may not be married to them) is "cheating on them". “Cheating” really is the word that occurs most readily to these people. The underlying presumption -- that a human being has some kind of property rights over another human being’s body -- is unspoken because it is assumed to be obvious. But with what justification?
In one of the most disgusting stories to hit the British newspapers last year, the wife of a well-known television personality, Chris Tarrant, hired a private detective to spy on him. The detective reported evidence of adultery and Tarrant’s wife divorced him, in unusually vicious style. But what shocked me was the way public opinion sided with Tarrant's horrible wife. Far from despising, as I do, anybody who would stoop so low as to hire a detective for such a purpose, large numbers of people, including even Mr. Tarrant himself, seemed to think she was fully justified. Far from concluding, as I would, that he was well rid of her, he was covered with contrition and his unfortunate mistress was ejected, covered with odium. The explanation of all these anomalous behavior patterns is the ingrained assumption of the deep rightness and appropriateness of sexual jealousy. It is manifest all the way from Othello to the French “crime passionnel” law, down to the “love rat” language of tabloid newspapers.
From a Darwinian perspective, sexual jealousy is easily understood. Natural selection of our wild ancestors plausibly favored males who guarded their mates for fear of squandering economic resources on other men’s children. On the female side, it is harder to make a Darwinian case for the sort of vindictive jealousy displayed by Mrs. Tarrant. No doubt hindsight could do it, but I want to make a different point. Sexual jealousy may in some Darwinian sense accord with nature, but "Nature, Mr. Allnutt, is what we are put in this world to rise above." Just as we rise above nature when we spend time writing a book or a symphony rather than devoting our time to sowing our selfish genes and fighting our rivals, so mightn't we rise above nature when tempted by the vice of sexual jealousy?
I, for one, feel drawn to the idea that there is something noble and virtuous in rising above nature in this way. I admit that I have, at times in my life, been jealous, but it is one of the things I now regret. Assuming that such practical matters as sexually transmitted diseases and the paternity of children can be sorted out (and nowadays DNA testing will clinch that for you if you are sufficiently suspicious, which I am not), what, actually, is wrong with loving more than one person? Why should you deny your loved one the pleasure of sexual encounters with others, if he or she is that way inclined? The British writer Julie Burchill is not somebody I usually quote (imagine a sort of intelligent Ann Coulter speaking with a British accent in a voice like Minnie Mouse) but I was struck by one of her remarks. I can't find the exact quote, but it was to the effect that, however much you love your mate (of either sex in the case of the bisexual Burchill) sex with a stranger is almost always more exciting, purely because it is a stranger. An exaggeration, no doubt, but the same grain of truth lurks in Woody Allen's "Sex without love is an empty experience, but as empty experiences go it's one of the best."
Even sticking to the higher plane of love, is it so very obvious that you can't love more than one person? We seem to manage it with parental love (parents are reproached if they don't at least pretend to love all their children equally), love of books, of food, of wine (love of Chateau Margaux does not preclude love of a fine Hock, and we don’t feel unfaithful to the red when we dally with the white), love of composers, poets, holiday beaches, friends . . . why is erotic love the one exception that everybody instantly acknowledges without even thinking about it? Why can a woman not love two men at the same time, in their different ways? And why should the two – or their wives -- begrudge her this? If we are being Darwinian, it might be easier to make the case the other way, for a man sincerely and deeply loving more than one woman. But I don't want to pursue the details here.
I'm not denying the power of sexual jealousy. It is ubiquitous if not universal. I’m just wondering aloud why we all accept it so readily, without even thinking about it. And why don't we all admire – as I increasingly do -- those rare free spirits confident enough to rise above jealousy, stop fretting about who is “cheating on” whom, and tell the green-eyed monster to go jump in the lake?
NOTE ADDED AFTER READING THE FIRST BATCH OF COMMENTS
I apologize for making my original article so easy to misunderstand. My fault!
I am not advocating a promiscuously swinging lifestyle, and I am not advocating deception and lying in personal relationships. I myself am well capable of jealousy. Moreover, I well understand the powerful biological reasons for it, having to do with the raising of children and other things. I was saying I wish I could rise above it, and I understand why it is so hard.
My jocular comparisons, for example with ‘faithfulness’ to red wine when flirting with white, were intended to show up how uniquely odd sexual jealousy is, in its powerful compulsion. It was a similar trick to a consciousness-raising question that I have often used in another context: “Would you ever talk about a Keynesian child, or a secular humanist child?” That question forces people to notice, by contrast, how odd it is that we uniquely accept religious labels for children: "Catholic child." "Muslim child." Here I was trying to do the same consciousness-raising exercise for sexual jealousy. Sex is the one area where violent jealousy is conventionally thought virtuous. I was just pointing out the oddity, not saying it is inexplicable and not even, necessarily, condemning it -- although I would personally like to rise above it, and I think the sum total of happiness would be raised if we could manage it.
My quotation from The African Queen (“Nature, Mr Allnut, is what we are put in this world to overcome”) was intended to demonstrate a piquant paradox. The Katherine Hepburn character was encouraging the Humphrey Bogart character to rise above his natural sex drive. I was pointing out the paradox that ‘rising above nature’ can take us in exactly the opposite – less obvious -- direction. I thought it an amusing irony that our primitively strong impulse to jealousy furnishes us with an example where wild nature forbids sex, while rising above nature encourages it!
I did not intend to advocate lying under oath, and I probably should have talked in general terms rather than about the Clinton case in particular. My main point is that people should not be asked prying questions about matters that are nobody else’s business, and especially not under oath. Taking an oath is a sacred relic of our religious history which really does have some value. It retains a kind of sacredness which we respect, even though we no longer believe in the religiously sacred. The ritual of swearing an oath is precious as a last resort, when it is really really important to get at the truth, and we should respect it. Respect means not only that we should not lie under oath. It also means that judges and prosecutors should not abuse the oath by asking impertinent questions of witnesses under oath: questions about private matters where nobody has the right to pry.
It is a little analogous to the story of the boy who cried wolf. Crying wolf, or shouting “fire” is something we should never do frivolously or as a prank. It is too important. Truth where fire is concerned is sacred. Don’t abuse it, because one day there really will be a fire. In the same way, don’t abuse the sacredness of the oath by asking witnesses illegitimate questions about private matters which tempt them – with some justification -- to lie. One day, you may need to ask a genuinely important question, where you really do need to get at the truth. Then you will regret having abused the sacredness of the oath.
That is what I meant to say, and I’m sorry I seemed to be suggesting that it is OK to lie under oath. That was going too far.
Richard Dawkins
By
Richard Dawkins
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November 29, 2007; 7:06 AM ET
| Category:
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I loved the original article. I was deeply moved by the beauty of what Dawkins said. As usual, his eloquence is matched only by his wisdom. I wish only that sometime in the distant future our progeny will look back on articles like these and wonder to themselves why it was so difficult to do away with destructive tendencies like jealousy, war, cruelty, selfishness, etc.
I don't believe there was a reason for the author to amend his original comments. The sad fact is that many people are just not able to examine their own relationships and desires without feeling shame and resentment. Dawkins said nothing but that if you love someone, you shouldn't regard them as a possession. You should want for them to be as happy as possible, even if that means it can't be with you all the time. I for one applaud this way of thinking and see no reason to be offended by the author's remarks.
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Dear you all
At last I have the opportunity to give the animologist and nogodist Pr Richard Dawkins a piece of my mind!
“Is sex outside of marriage a sin?” By making us believe that he can answer such a question he is Atheist, nogodist and antigodist Pr Richard Dawkins not posing as an expert on matters of “sin”, which is certainly not his domain. So, why the imposture?
“Lying to Congress by saying, "I did not have sex with that woman" should not be an impeachable offense, because where a man puts his penis is none of Congress's damn business. Nor is it any journalist's damn business whether a politician once took drugs at university. Or whether he is gay.” (Pr Richard Dawkins)
“…where a man puts his penis is none of Congress's damn business.”
Does anyone think it is a proper language for any Professor to use? Maybe it is for “animologist” Dawkins, because an evolved animal that he claims to be is not bound by any etiquette that is still based on religious values or Christian virtues.
Pr Richard Dawkins is an expert on lies as he was seen on television telling a big one about (macro) evolution. To a question put to him by the interviewer, Pr Dawkins said: “Evolution is a fact, not a theory!” In another interview, when asked to provide proof of “macro evolution”, he suddenly became silent.
Of course, if he is of the opinion that the US President can lie to the American public and too the world, even about his adulterous life, Pr Richard Dawkins, as a scientist, must have seen this authority to lie vested upon him by the Constitution. But, if the Constitution does not allow any President to lie to the American public, is not Pr Dawkins fabricating a lie himself?
Listening to his discourse, Pr Dawkins is systematically seen to hate religion, God, Christians and Muslims, BUT NEVER JEWS! He calls Apartheid Israel a “democracy”! Is this not another big lie?
I understand that Pr Richard Dawkins, is paid by our tax money to preach Atheism, lies about macro-evolution, hatred for God and people who believed in God. Is any tax-payer happy to pay him to lie? Does any tax-paying parent like to see Pr Dawkins lie to their kids about macro evolution?
Pr Dawkins is advocating the free use of a man’s genital organ, no matter where (and with whom, man, animal, infant, baby, tree, and so on)! Is not here a clear indication that he cautions homosexuality, bestiality and paedophilia – fundamentals of his Atheist religion?
“Or whether he is gay.” (Pr Richard Dawkins)
Where did Pr Dawkins learn in his animologist science that there is such a thing as “gay”? Is he afraid to call a spade a spade? I have a question for the eminent professor.
“IS PHALLO-ANAL INTERCOURSE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE?”
Pr Richard Dawkins says “there is no God”! Did he make this discovery during his “scientific” research?
I have another question for the eminent Professor.
CAN ANYBODY PROVE THERE IS NO GOD?
Once, Dr Kent Hovind was told by one student: There is no God. Dr Hovind said: Son, do you know everything? The answer was obviously “NO”! Dr Hovind then said: Son, do you know half of everything? The answer was again “NO”! Dr Hovind went on: Let us suppose, son, that you know half of everything. Is it possible that in the half that you don’t know GOD MAY EXIST?
I have a third question for Pr Richard Dawkins. Dr Kent Hovind offered $250,000 for anybody who could provide proof of macro-evolution.
DID PR DAWKINS CASH THE BOUNTY?
I would not comment any further as Pr Richard Dawkins is just another bigot and deluded fanatic of his Atheist religion of evolution which is not science at all. Thousands of times macro-evolution has been proven to be a hoax, a deception, but the religion of Atheism has replaced all other religions in our so-called public institutions and controlled media. The likes of Carnegie, Rhodes, Rockefeller and Rothschild have waged wars and wars against religion and God for more than a century, and our public schools have become the worst place parents can send their kids to. Did you know that M.K.Gandhi never sent his kids to English schools because he called them CITADELS OF SLAVERY?
Pr Richard Dawkins is happy that our kids are taught outright lies in our school text-books. No wonder he hates religion and God, and is for genocidal and spoliation wars against defenceless nations, because at least Judaism, Christianity and Islam teach:
Thou shalt not make any false testimony.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not covet.
Pr Richard Dawkins’ religion of Atheism and nogodism is the exact opposite of these three “revealed” religions.
Another lie that Pr Richard Dawkins said: RELIGIOUS PEOPLE DO NOT THINK!
I re-iterate Dr Kent Hovind’s challenge here and ask Pr Richard Dawkins to provide us right here ONE SINGLE SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF MACRO-EVOLUTION WITHOUT LYING OR BEATING ABOUT THE BUSH?
Regards
Ghyslaine ROC
Monday 28th of January 6008
Posted by: Ghyslaine ROC | January 28, 2008 6:31 PM
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Dear Professor Dawkins
Since you prefer to call Christmas, Newton's Day...Happy Newton, the Christian scientist Day!
Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia
Posted by: Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia | December 24, 2007 2:43 AM
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I can fully understand the pain of Hillary Clinton. I admire her for moving beyond the pain and humiliation and proving her worth as a politician. If Hillary can forgive her husband, Bill Clinton, why can't the rest of the American public do the same, since the Congress took what step they thought was necessary at the time?
Why should Hillary not be eligible for public office? Why shouldn't Bill Clinton give his best to the people of the US and the world in whatever capacity he can, even if it happens to be as the First Spouse? Nothing good that Bill Clinton ever did is cancelled because he messed up in one area. If he has paid the price the Congress had him pay, why not forgive him?
Posted by: Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia | December 22, 2007 11:35 PM
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This is a copy and paste of my post on Sam Harris' thread, 'Empty Wager.'
I do not think anyone denies the fact that ALL human beings have a legitimate need for one sexual partner. The problem starts when sex is equated with love, i.e sex is love. Sex is NOT love. Sex is merely an instinct and as such needs to be regulated and tamed like any other instinct. Noboby applauds a glutton. But the society tends to applaud successful skirt/pant-chasing Casanovas, females who lure the most men into their sex toilets. (The Buddhists tend to refer to casual sex as using the toilet.)
The Bible makes it clear in the very first chapter of Genesis: "It is not good for man to be alone." According to God's plan, sex is an integral element in a companionship in the context of a loving, and committed relationship. So that point is not even up for debate.
The question is: what about those who need a legitimate sexual partner in a meaningful relationship and are not married, or what about married partners who love their partners and expect faithfulness. How does one find sex within companionships in a society which offers sex as recreation? Young sultry seductress, whether married or not, get far more sexual partners than they need and yet their need remains insatiable. Those who are not sultry seductresses or young enough, find no partners at all as a result. Men get the best of such "liberation" on the part of women because they aren't exactly excited about sex which involves commitment.
Religions merely give instructions on how everyone in the society could have that legitimate need for sex satisfied in a meaningful relationship - in a companionship which is based on love and commitment. Love and commitment is after all not a fickle feeling, but a choice one makes to answer that legitimate need and one should not have to depend on answering one's legitimate need like winning a lottery. But if the society adopts as norm bonobo ape sexual behaviour as "liberation," then satisfying legitimate needs of a lifelong relationship and stable family becomes a matter of winning the lottery. But "liberation" from what to what purpose is the question. Just as human beings, (unlike animals), eat more than they need, they similarly crave for sex with more than one partner even though they don't need it. In the animal, sex remains a pure instinct. But we all know that in human beings that is not the case. Sex can be used as a power tool (done mostly by women who are endowed by nature with extremely seductive bodies), men do it in other ways, and in general human beings use the sex instinct in a whole lot of other ways that are not found in animals.
As for Catholic priests (and nuns) and mandatory celibacy: I do agree that it opens the door to all sorts of problems. All of the Apostles of Jesus were married. Paul, who was not an Apostle in the lifetime of Jesus, was the only one who was celibate. Mandatory celibacy for priests was introduced much later in the Catholic church.
As mentioned in my earlier post, we need a realistic solution to the sexually liberated society of today. A proper sex education very early on highlighting the use and abuse of sex; and returning to the practice of early marriage is one important way to answer the legitimate sexual need in a meaningful way. Evolving more and more into bonobo ape behaviour is certainly not the ideal nor the answer, even if the rigidity advocated by religions may not always be realized. It is necessary to keep the highest ideal in mind and try to work towards it as best as possible rather than make the lowest denominator (bonobo ape sexual behaviour) the new standard.
If religions can't explain the difference between black and white, who can? Of course religions realise that white is not the level at which human beings live, but that is what one is supposed to aspire towards. At least Christianity recognises that we are all sinners in need of mercy and forgiveness while we work towards living the life Jesus proclaimed God had in mind for the greatest happiness of human beings, whom God created and loves, more than human beings love themselves.
On a Muslim thread I had already mentioned that when two people fall in love (provided they continue to cultivate love actively after the intense romantic phase has passed), they act instinctively just as Jesus taught (even if they are atheists or behaved like bonobo apes before) - they want to remain together for the rest of their lives, remain faithful to each other as a given (feeling completely ripped apart if the other partner cheats), are able to deal with temptation from outside and are not even tempted themselves (or if tempted they are able to overcome it and say "no" to it) no matter how beautiful the other person nor how seductive a game another plays (for they find beauty in the one they love and love is what gives anything value and lasting beauty); and stick with each other through thick and thin, through sickness and sorrow until death does them apart.
Most people understand the value of a lasting companionship (centuries of stable relationships and families practised because it was forced by society) and hence choose to settle for one partner for the rest of their lives whether they are believers in God or not. They choose to invest their creative energies in pursuits other than chasing and conquering attractive members of the opposite sex, which religion tells us is an insatiable need arising from the false ego, and has nothing to do with a legitimate human need for contentment and complete happiness of the human being.
Those who preach hedonism and bonobo ape sexual behaviour as religion get their following of course. But whether such hedonistic materialism serves the best long term interests of the society has been disproved by the modern day chaos stemming from quarters practising extreme sexual liberation.
The Indian sex guru, Rajneesh is a case in point and has a lesson to teach too: he carried the 'sex as religion' experiment to the very extreme and despite all the impressive psychological techniques used, created the perfect disaster.
As creatures with free will, we can choose the chaos of our liking of course.
A suggested reading list to gain a more balanced view on sexuality in human beings:
1. Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Richard Bach
2. Siddharta by Hermann Hesse
3. Mount Misery by Samuel Shem (a hilarious take on Freudian psychoanalysis)
4. The Art of Loving by Erich Fromm
5. The Road Less Travelled by Scott M Peck
6. An apropos to Lady Chatterlee's Lover, (essay) by D H Lawrence
7. Sexuality (essay) by C S Lewis
8. Books by Patrick Carnes: Don't Call it Love, Out of the Shadows, Betrayal Bond...
9. The Book of Proverbs (The Old Testament)
10. The Ramayana (Hindu Epic)
11. Women who love too much by Robin Norwood
12. The Casanova Complex by Peter Trachtenberg
It goes without saying of course that in this day and age of sexual "revolution" there are female versions of the Casanova, women who cheat their partners and there are men who love too much. Men and women are truly equals both in virtue and vice. We need to sit down together and discuss openly what males and females need to do to evolve into the human society that caters to the happiness of the weakest, not just the survival of the sexually fittest.
Posted by: Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia | December 21, 2007 4:04 AM
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Dear Professor Dawkins
Today is the longest day (21 December) in Australia and the longest night in your part of the globe. With Christmas around the corner I wanted to complete the message I started and wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year 2008! Of course I know you don't celebrate Christmas, but I hope you enjoy the festive season anyway.
Since you corrected your point about why it was wrong for former President Clinton to lie and the point has been extensively discussed I do not want to add my two cents worth.
But banishing the green-eyed monster of jealousy in order to raise the tolerance level for sexual promiscuity? As Homo Sapiens we are not under any obligation to "develop" the consciousness of bonobo apes, are we? Does sporting "free-for-all-genitals" constitute freedom of spirit? not unless in your dictionary genitals and spirit are synonyms!
I don't see why bonobo ape types cannot evolve to the level of monogamous relationships, toilet train their genitals and lust and rise about their need to have sexual relationships everytime the opportunity arises. Isn't that a better goal to set, than prescribe sexual promiscuity for all? Some of us are incapable of promiscuity you know, and how are we to find partners if the rest are practising promiscuity?
I'm yet to see an excess of love in the sexually promiscous, but I do see an excess of narcissistic lust.
No! No! No! Professor Dawkins! I hope the day never comes when you are the one who prescribes sexual morals for human beings. There is enough confusion already without your help!
You have worn your heart on your sleeve with this essay. I do feel somewhat touched by it. I do hope you are able to rise above your jealousy (which by the way is a feeling all of us who have loved deeply can identify with) and I hope it helps.
Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia
Posted by: Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia | December 21, 2007 2:20 AM
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Richard Dawkins is, as usual, right on target. It amazes me that so many people feel threatened by his secularism and intellectualism. I have always thought that those who are confident in their own beliefs are little affected by the barbs and debasing insinuations of others. It seems that those who are quickest to take offense about attacks (or even mere questions) about their beliefs and values are those who have the least convincing arguments for their causes. Anyone who attacks or smirks at my secularist/ environmentalist/ vegan value system only makes me more confident and resolved in my beliefs and bpractices. Fortunately, I am free to pursue my values and lifestyle, and I don't feel the need to threaten others who disagree, nor to force them to my way of thinking---as I think Evangelicals and other religious fanatics are wont to do (even, at times, trying to make their beliefs public policy, EGAD!) Enlightened behavior speaks for itself, and does not need to abort the rights (or free speech) of others to be heard loud and clear.
On a similar note, I find it ironic that liberals and secularists are the ones I most often encounter in activist arenas fighting to save the environment, secure equality for everyone, and treat the planet and all life upon it with tenderness and concern.
Thank you, Richard Dawkins, for your courage, clear-thinking, and humanity. You are a true voice in the wilderness---if only people would listen.
Posted by: Elizabeth Lehman | December 15, 2007 12:15 PM
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Maybe we should amend our marriage vows to include infidelity. How many would be amenable to that? Otherwise I can sympathize with Dawkins point of view if he believes in nothing but science. At least that is what I assume.
Posted by: Dr. E. Piscitelli | December 14, 2007 12:30 AM
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Maybe we should amend our marriage vows to include infidelity. How many would be amenable to that? Otherwise I can sympathize with Dawkins point of view if he believes in nothing but science. At least that is what I assume.
Posted by: Dr. E. Piscitelli | December 14, 2007 12:27 AM
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Dawkins is expert in his field, but he should avoid partisan American political commentary. Bill Clinton was not impeached for "lying to Congress" or for "lying to the American people". He was impeached for committing multiple felonies, including, but not limited to, perjury, subornation of perjury, obstruction of justice, and interfence with governmental operations. These crimes were committed by Clinton in the framework of two ongoing federal criminal and civil investigations, one having to do with Lewinski and the other having to with the Paula Jones lawsuit. Dawkins betrays his prejudice as well as his ignorance of American law with his breezy dismissal of the charges against Clinton.
Posted by: Tim Watson | December 7, 2007 3:24 PM
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E Favorite,
Thanks also for responding. I agree that it can be very difficult to read tone, particularly if there is disagreement on a subject. But if you knew me, you'd know that my tone is always a friendly one. Read gently... :-)
Posted by: Carol | December 6, 2007 1:29 AM
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Carol – Thanks for getting back to me. It can be hard to read tone on an internet forum, but something tells me your tone is not a friendly one. Nonetheless, I’ll respond by saying that, yes, atheists are certainly people too, with all their foibles, except for belief in the supernatural. Also many more atheists were believers than the other way around, so I tend to think they know more about believers than vice versa and are more in touch with the nuances of the the differences between them.
Regarding pharmacists – I think it’s pretty scary that they can simply refuse to do their jobs. Maybe publishing a list of those places in doctor’s offices would help – and might cut down of business in general for the durg store – or might make it harder for those pharmacists to get a job.
Posted by: E favorite | December 6, 2007 12:27 AM
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richard dawkins rules
Posted by: john connore | December 6, 2007 12:14 AM
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In 'The African Queen', Rose is not actually talking about sex when she tells Mr Alnutt that "nature is what we are put in this world to rise above". She is talking about the fact that Mr Alnutt has got roaring drunk, and, while drunk, told her that he is abandoning the plan to use 'The African Queen' to sink a German battleship. That is what she is angry about. Sex has nothing to do with it.
Posted by: Louise | December 5, 2007 11:31 PM
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E:
Ahhh. So atheists just call believers morons, but don't really believe it....
I only say that atheists call believers morons because it is what I observe on these forums. That does not include ALL of them, of course. There are a few that are respectful (meaning non-insulting), fair, don't mischaracterize the positions of others, and even stand up for believers when they see them unjustly maligned. I haven't seen many of your posts before, so I hope that includes you.... :-)
Another thing that I regularly observe is that many atheists are not so different from believers in many respects. They are equally willing to make electoral decisions based upon views that are irrelevant to the issues. Just as the fundamentalist Christian right-wing is so leery of Romney, atheists frequently post that they will not vote for someone who does not believe in evolution, as if the candidate must be entirely irrational, and not just compartmentally irrational, as you would put it.
I observe that many atheists come with the same me-against-you mentality that fuels interdenominational feuds. I wholly think that is to be expected, because that is a level of human moral development through which ALL people must pass, religious or not, so it is not exactly a judgement against atheists. I'm just pointing out that they are not as different from believers as they would like to think.
As for pharmacists: While I personally have no objection to birth control, I do believe that a pharmacist has the right to sell or not sell what he chooses, just like any businessman. If I own a grocery store and don't want to sell broccoli, that's my affair. My customers can have all the moral outrage they want about their "right" to sufficient vitamins, fiber and anti-oxidants, but they might have to go elsewhere. People don't have "rights" to something that another person has to provide.
Additionally, pharmacists can't stock every drug known to mankind. Every month I have to drive across town to another pharmacy to get a med for my daughter that my regular pharmacy doesn't carry. Who cares what their reason is...? I'm not planning to write to 60 Minutes about it.
Posted by: Carol | December 5, 2007 3:39 PM
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A quick correction to Dawkins' article:
"the Blair/Bush lies about Iraq’s weapons"
I'm surprised that someone of Prof. Dawkins' erudition would make such a fundamental mistake. They are not "lies" if one believes what one is saying. Every major intelligence agency in the West believed Iraq had WMDs, so you cannot say Bush or Blair were lying, which is the deliberate telling of a falsehood one knows to be untrue. You can argue that they were wrong, inaccurate, or in error, but that is not the same thing as lying.
Posted by: Marie | December 5, 2007 2:52 PM
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Carol - most atheists know very well that believers aren't "morons" - many were believers themselves (like me) and many work everyday with believers who are obviously not morons. When I dropped my beliefs in the supernatural, I didn't go from "moron" to intellectual" - I just dropped certain beliefs --after a lot of thought and research, by the way.
As an atheist, I think those beliefs are silly and I know very well that the majority of believers are able to compartmentalize such beliefs.
Please be careful when you make broad statements like that.
Luckily, most medical professionals, whatever their beliefs, don't discriminate when dealing with patients. There is that problem of the christian pharmacists, though, who wouldn't dispense contraceptions
Posted by: E favorite | December 5, 2007 2:27 PM
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E Favorite:
I agree with your assessment that [atheists] "are the kind of people who are finding cures for diseases that all people suffer from – even those religious people who hate and fear atheists because they don’t believe in invisible supernatural beings and events recorded in a book written 2,000 years ago."
However, it I think it would be fair to note that religious people also compose the ranks of medical researchers and other scientists as well. And their work also benefits atheists, who think they are morons....
Not all religious persons (and notably those of Christian persuasions) subscribe to a literal 6-day creation and the other young earth stuff.
I wonder about denouncing a person upon the basis of a few beliefs, which may or may not be true.
If all of us here reading were psychoanalyzed down to our core beliefs, we would all learn about some irrational beliefs that we dearly cling to. We have formed survival tactics around these beliefs, which is why they are so persistent, even in the face of contrary evidence.
I think we would all feel pretty abused if our entire professional credibilty were impuned upon these few irrational beliefs. That is why it is disturbing to me to see decisions about elections being based on beliefs about evolution, angels, or underwear.
Posted by: Carol | December 5, 2007 12:11 PM
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Hello Anthony – I found a reference on designer babies, with 1 minute of Googling. Here’s a link to an online article by “Award winning author and lawyer Wesley J. Smith...a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute....’
He RETRACTED his remarks about Dawkins’ views in this article on his website:
"Saturday, November 25, 2006
A.I Retract My Claim that Richard Dawkins Supports Eugenics
Well, it seems that my post on Dawkins supporting eugenics was linked over at the Richard Dawkins official WEB site. In a comment to the post, Dawkins explains that the piece in the Herald was excerpted from an article he wrote in another forum. (It would have been nice if the Herald had explained that.) This means that Dawkins did not write the "Eugenics May Not Be Bad" headline, which is what caught my eye originally. Without that headline as a guide to interpreting his comment, his words take on a different tone...."
Click here for the whole article: http://www.wesleyjsmith.com/blog/2006/11/i-retract-my-claim-that-richard.html
And please be careful in the future to reference your sources, especially when making such strong claims about someone, even someone whose views you already disapprove of. Dawkins is a known atheist and supporter of evolution (www.richarddawkins.net). I suggest you stick with those facts when attempting to criticize him. Also, keep in mind that the vast majority of top scientists hold those views. http://blog.case.edu/singham/2006/02/08/the_religious_beliefs_of_scientists1
These are the kind of people who are finding cures for diseases that all people suffer from – even those religious people who hate and fear atheists because they don’t believe in invisible supernatural beings and events recorded in a book written 2,000 years ago.
Posted by: E favorite | December 5, 2007 9:20 AM
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Dr. Dawkins plays fast and loose with the facts. I note that he did not provide a citation to his assertions that Bush said God told him to go to war against Iraq, or for the Romney quote. Probably because both came from Dawkins or some other leftist's fevered imagination.
Posted by: C. Perkins | December 5, 2007 8:56 AM
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Anthony - Please reference Dawkins "previous article on designer babies." I'm not aware of it and would like to assess it for myself.
When you put "thoughts" in quotes, what thoughts are you referring to - the ones you mention or some specific thoughts of Dawkins?
If the latter, could you please present them in Dawkins own words (with references)?
Thanks
Posted by: E favorite | December 5, 2007 8:29 AM
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John, that's because Islam, Christianity (in all it's flavors), and almost any other religion other then Buddhism or Taoism are simply about making money. The meek shall inherit the Earth, and the pastors shall inherit the wealth. Way to go!
Posted by: Anonymous | December 5, 2007 8:12 AM
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Once again, Richard Dawkins demonstrates why the new atheists are, more than anything else, so risible. Here they profess to be forward-thinking and progressive, when in fact they are the most retrograde of species.
Atheism means:
1. Neo-eugenics: Please see Dawkins' earlier article on designer babies. Master race here we come.
2. Permission to cheat on your spouse without having to call it cheating.
So: Sexual libertinism and eliminating the unfit. Haven't we been down this road before? Didn't we go to war against this nihilistic nonsense, both overseas and in our own burned-out, depression-laden, and sterile culture?
These "thoughts" are worthy of a 12-year-old who has never read a history book or met a veteran of WWII or the drug-adled 60s.
Posted by: Anthony | December 5, 2007 7:12 AM
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"...where a man puts his penis is none of Congress's damn business."
As you should know, Clinton signed a law against sexual harrassment. Under it, men had their careers ruined merely for saying something that was misconstrued and blown hugely out of proportion.
Clinton MADE it Congress's business. For you, a reputedly brilliant man, or anyone else to say otherwise is either incredibly stupid or remarkably dishonest.
As that radical right-wing commentator, Maureen Dowd, wrote in that right-wing propaganda organ, the NY Times, "Feminism died in 1998 when Hillary allowed henchlings and Democrats to demonize Monica as an unbalanced stalker, and when Gloria Steinem defended Mr. Clinton against Kathleen Willey and Paula Jones by saying he had merely made clumsy passes, then accepted rejection, so there was no sexual harassment involved."
Posted by: Jim C. | December 4, 2007 10:16 PM
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Politicians serve at the pleasure of the electorate. They had better answer every question truthfully. They choose to make their life public when they run for public office.
Its called "cheating" because, unless stated otherwise, people enter marriage as an exclusive commitment. The people who don't have that kind of marriage obviously don't call it cheating.
I have no right to tell any person with whom they will have sex with, but I do have the right to choose to be married only to a woman who chooses to be faithful.
What is so noble about not caring about who your wife sleeps with? A lack of sexual jealous is the norm; most people reserve jealous for only one person.
Posted by: Jonathan Bostwick | December 4, 2007 9:56 PM
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Dawkins is renowned worldwide and is largely seen as a credible voice. It's pretty weird to watch him implode his reputation then, just for the chance to vent his bigotry against Mormons.
I mean, if he doesn't want to like Mormons, that's surely fine with them -- but at least he could indicate that he gets his information from their church itself. But to see a scientist citing "Slate" magazine as a reliable source on Mormonism is pretty lamentable. What's he going to cite next: "People?"
He writes: "It is the mark of the religious mind that it cares more about private than public morality." Yup to that!
Perhaps it is the religious mind that aims to make the private life square away with the public life -- so that one behaves NO DIFFERENTLY in private than in public, but I don't see why that need be so. I think the irreligious could equally strive not to live lives of hypocrisy.
And I find it curious that Dawkins finds jealousy a moral outrage, yet infidelity to be none in the slightest. Even geese get angry and jealous at infidelity. Just watch a goose chase down and attack her mate that strays.... That might indicate that there is survival value attached to jealous behavior. It might indicate that partners who are indifferent to the philanderings of their spouses get de-selected from the gene pool -- as do their children.
Posted by: Steven | December 4, 2007 3:39 PM
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I generally try to explore all angles of an argument from the viewpoint of all parties involved. With that in mind I recently purchased "The God Delusion" on audiobook, and have been saving it for my roadtrip at Christmas (however ironic that may be).
When I saw Dawkins as a panel respondent this morning, I dove in, expecting his presentation to be compelling and logically flawless. Talk about underwhelmed....
Is that the caliber of his reasoning in "The God Delusion?" I suppose I need to hear it just so I am versed in the atheistic spiel, but I hardly find him the intimidating figure I imagined.
Posted by: Carol | December 4, 2007 2:10 PM
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Kacoo posted: "Why is Richard Dawkins, a royal subject of Her Majesty the Queen of England, commenting upon life in America?"
--and--
"Okay, that is his right as an -- wait a minute -- Dawkins is not an American. Dawkins is British and as such he is a subject of the Crown and its state-established church, the Anglican Church of England."
--and--
"Dawkins is not an American, not a registered voter, not a political columnist, and not even a participant in American society."
--and--
"Yet he remarks on any subject he chooses."
OH! How DARE he, right?
First of all, England is a free country too.
...and even if it weren't...
While we live in a country where our Constitution protects, among other things, our right to free speech, we as Americans also recognize that these are "self-evident" rights which are "inalienable". I do not think that just because a person is not directly protected by OUR Constitution that they do not have the right to speak freely...EVEN if they ARE from a country that does not permit it. The right of the individual is inalienable and the GOVERNMENT supressing it is wrong.
Freedom of speech is not supposed to be distinctly American...it's the PROTECTION of it by our Constitution that is the key.
Your comments are just the thing that would make a foriegner criticize us as elitist and ignorant!
Posted by: Are you KIDDING?! | December 4, 2007 2:00 PM
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Regarding Romney:
How do you suppose it is that Romney, having all those whacked out beliefs, managed to accrue a quarter billion dollars? I mean, here I am, a rational being that doesn't believe that the Garden of Eden was located in Missouri -- oh wait -- I shouldn't think that is particularly dumb because there was no Garden of Eden, so people who think it was in Missouri are no weirder than those who think it was nowhere in particular... I digress.
Here I am a rational being with no belief in angels and yet I live paycheck to paycheck. How is that possible...?
Can a person who believes in the Garden of Eden still understand and obey the laws of economics? But if he believes in angels how could he do anything rational...?
And if I am so rational in my demand for evidence for everything, then why am I not as financially successful as Romney? Does he in fact make some decisions better than I do?
Life crisis.... !!!
Posted by: John | December 4, 2007 1:48 PM
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Regarding Romney:
How do you suppose it is that Romney, having all those whacked out beliefs, managed to accrue a quarter billion dollars? I mean, here I am, a rational being that doesn't believe that the Garden of Eden was located in Missouri -- oh wait -- I shouldn't think that is particularly dumb because there was no Garden of Eden, so people who think it was in Missouri are no weirder than those who think it was nowhere in particular... I digress.
Here I am a rational being with no belief in angels and yet I live paycheck to paycheck. How is that possible...?
Could a person who believes in the Garden of Eden Romney actually understand and obey the laws of economics? But if he believes in angels how could he do anything rational...?
And if I am so rational in my demand for evidence for everything, then why am I not as successful as Romney? Life crisis.... !!!
Posted by: John | December 4, 2007 1:46 PM
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Richard, Richard,
Obviously the word "sin" is NOT meaningless to you. It means a great deal. It means that an act you would very much prefer to be value neutral is not regarded so by the society you live in, the carbon units of which society evolved that very code of behavior for survival purposes.
And it bugs you, because you want to spread your DNA without guilt.
And yes, private "sins" say a great deal about political candidates. Does the candidate betray the important people in his/her life? Does he/she break promises? Is he/she trustworthy?
If the candidate has made no such commitments to a spouse, then he is hardly accountable -- but for the rest of them -- well, integrity is what you do when no one is watching. I'd like my vote to go to the guy who does the right thing when he is the only one who would know....
Posted by: Cara | December 4, 2007 1:25 PM
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Daniel,
Totalinarianism? Humbug--imbecilism and hogwash.
Posted by: Parker | December 4, 2007 7:22 AM
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Thank you professor Dawkins for your article. I thought it was exceptional.
I just wish more people would recognize a quite clear historical progression before their very eyes.
We have this concept of the family--roughly that each man must have a woman and that each family is responsible for child raising and that sex of course must be confined to family. But of course--and in especially religious views of the world--each family is compressed with all others in an overarching, collective structure, which regulates life (which is to say for all freedom of family, individuality of family, family life is not so very free and different from other families in a society which strongly emphasizes families).
Well with the modern world we have increasingly "heightened", more sophisticated collective structures which are breaking up families, superimposing educational systems, complex workplaces, etc. and we can obviously see that child raising is becoming more and more divorced from family and that eventually through the biological sciences we will have a sophisticated grasp of genetic difference and the rapid education and workplace deployment of such differences.
The family as traditionally understood will be virtually obsolete as to child raising, and really why do we still persist in thinking father knows best for his son? And of course as individual talents are more and more quickly recognized--as education and corporate workforce takes into hand child raising--it will be ridiculous to confine sex to marriage or even to have marriage at all...
People argue that marriage breaking down in sophisticated societies these days is a disaster, but a large part of the breakdown is so much of child raising is being taken care of by society at large and because we have a work environment which demands independence of mind...
We are moving to a superior collective upraising of man which shatters families but raises children by superior methods and allows freedom of sexual connections for adults...
But expect the religious to call this totalitarianism, etc. as if each child confined to family and religious life and of course sex confined to family was the very apotheosis of freedom!
Hope this is enough support for your comments. This problem must be seen in the light of entire human history.
Posted by: daniel | December 3, 2007 8:42 PM
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Hello, again, Parker --just saw your note. Thanks
Like I say - different strokes for different folks.
Huh - please consider that your perception of me is not the only valid one and that people don't need to be warned about me.
Posted by: E favorite | December 3, 2007 4:58 PM
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Huh - "the "never mind what you're interested in, either we're gonna talk about what I'm interested in, or I'm going to ignore you" approach"
Agree wholeheartedly -- this is not a good approach. I don't recommend it.
Thanks for posting that link. Anyone who wants to check out the conversation, mainly between me and Demos, can do so.
I think atheists can have much in common with believers (having been a believer helps) and certainly lots to talk about, but open communication is difficult if the requirement for conversation is being dishonest - stating respect for belief in supernatural beings and events.
Posted by: E favorite | December 3, 2007 4:52 PM
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Although this conversation has gone way off track, I'll grab back the baton long enough to say that I felt completely listened to by E Favorite and I appreciated and respected that, as well as the inquisitiveness that engaged li'l ol' me in the conversation. Once more, thanks, E Favorite. I consider you an observant listener and a deep thinker. (Please pardon the interruption, huh. But I don't see things your way at all--not saying I'm right, but there are some pretty common ways to build relationships. Peace.)
Posted by: Parker | December 3, 2007 4:47 PM
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Favorite, I think you're mistaken - I don't recall taking much of a part in that last discussion. Watching it unfold, though, I never go the impression that the bottom line issue was "respect" in the sense that you seem to be using it, but just the common courtesy of hearing someone out. I've tried the "never mind what you're interested in, either we're gonna talk about what I'm interested in, or I'm going to ignore you" approach with my significant other - it didn't work too well.
Or, to use a really concrete illustration, stopping at "let me show you mine" is never a good way to build a meaningful relationship.
It may work for you, though - or you may not really care about talking with people who's interests don't align with yours. We all have our bottom lines. I'll discuss just about anything with almost anyone - but I won't invest much time with someone who won't give me equal time.
Posted by: Huh? | Dece
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