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I have strong reason to believe that there IS an all-powerful force governing our lives for the following simple reason that would probably prove to be true if scrutinized: If you study the birthcharts of babies born into wealthy families, you will invariably see the wealth-promising aspects between the natal planets. After drawing up and analyzing thousands of birthcharts, I am pretty sure of this bias.

I you can become convinced of this fact then the rest is easy. If it is true that birthcharts are "set up" because certain necessary material conditions must be met (it is hard to be a "poor" baby in a wealthy family), then it follows that there is a knowing intelligence in this design. Conditions and effects are known before the birth occurs. It is most likely that any intelligence that is able to manipulate such variables can only be super-intelligent. Supra-dimensional wisdom spanning "time", everything meticulously planned. God is a good name for such a mind-blowing phenomenon.

I CHALLENGE THE BIOLOGIST RICHARD DAWKINS TO DISPROVE THIS.

HTTP://WWW.LUCKYDAYS.TV/STOCK_MARKETS.HTML to learn something

I have strong reason to believe in this for the following simple reason that would probably prove to be true if scrutinized: If you study the birthcharts of babies born into wealthy families, you will invariably see the wealth-promising aspects between the natal planets. After drawing up and analyzing thousands of birthcharts, I am pretty sure of this bias.

I you can become convinced of this fact then the rest is easy. If it is true that birthcharts are "set up" because certain necessary material conditions must be met (it is hard to be a "poor" baby in a wealthy family), then it follows that there is a knowing intelligence in this design. Conditions and effects are known before the birth occurs. It is most likely that any intelligence that is able to manipulate such variables can only be super-intelligent. Supra-dimensional wisdom spanning "time", everything meticulously planned. God is a good name for such a mind-blowing phenomenon.

Do the math, do the stats, and you will find out something of value.

HTTP://WWW.LUCKYDAYS.TV

DICK DORKINS

I have strong reason to believe in this for the following simple reason that would probably prove to be true if scrutinized: If you study the birthcharts of babies born into wealthy families, you will invariably see the wealth-promising aspects between the natal planets. After drawing up and analyzing thousands of birthcharts, I am pretty sure of this bias.

I you can become convinced of this fact then the rest is easy. If it is true that birthcharts are "set up" because certain necessary material conditions must be met (it is hard to be a "poor" baby in a wealthy family), then it follows that there is a knowing intelligence in this design. Conditions and effects are known before the birth occurs. It is most likely that any intelligence that is able to manipulate such variables can only be super-intelligent. Supra-dimensional wisdom spanning "time", everything meticulously planned. God is a good name for such a mind-blowing phenomenon.

Do the math, do the stats, and you will find out something of value.

HTTP://WWW.LUCKYDAYS.TV

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Oops, seems Steven Weinberg forgot to check out the Biblical text in Matthew 7:11 where Jesus said to the people:
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children..."
So here we have EVIL people doing GOOD, and they didn't have a religion that could save them, or Jesus was obviously wasting His time teaching them, seeing they already had a saving religion!

Lesson To Learn: watch out who you quote before covering all bases!

Duh! I'll take that Nobel Prize back now - thanks.

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Although I am not religious myself, but the argument is completely distorted towards current events where religion (Islam mostly) is receiving bad rap!

Let's not forget the first and second world wars, the holocaust, the genocide in Rwanda, the genocide committed by Stalin, the Vietnam war, the Korean war, the murders of the fleeing East Germans on the Berlin wall, the murders of the dictators in south America (Chile, Salvador, Argentina, ...) the victims of the Japanese invasion of China, the crimes of the French in Algeria, the crimes of the British in half the globe during the heydays of British Empire, the extermination of the native Americans ... Sorry the list can go on and on ...

All these mass murder events (mostly forgotten by the current media in favor of 9/11) have actually generated more evil than all the religious wars many times. do a simple search and check the numbers for yourself.

And all them were motivated by purely "secular" ideas - the master race, the European enlightenment, bringing civilization to the natives, ... whatever.

There are lies, and there are grand lies. Your article falls in the second category!

Atheism is just as likely to cause suffering as any other religious belief. This is not because Atheism is illogical but because the axioms of atheism are just as likely to mislead as Christianity. A good example is social darwinism. an atheist's morality is defined by what that person believes is human. If a religious person is other than what you are then suffering of a religious person is less important than others. If you are not black then black people are less important. if you are not an atheist then atheists are less important. These concepts are still logical, but the axioms used to find these theorems are universal and wrong. Religion does not cause this suffering. any worldview, athiest or religious, that supports a human other is wrong.

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Loved the article. I learned about this site from an interview with Sally Quinn on "Tavis Smiley."

Quinn came across, however, as confused vis-a-vis her religious beliefs/non-beliefs. She seems to not know precisely how to define herself.

I think she should spend a bit more time commiserating with Dawkins, Hitchens et al.

Loved the article. I learned about this site from an interview with Sally Quinn on "Tavis Smiley."

Quinn came across, however, as confused vis-a-vis her religious beliefs/non-beliefs. She seems to not know precisely how to define herself.

I think she should spend a bit more time commiserating with Dawkins, Hitchens et al.

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I think most of what Dawkins says are rational but why select only one religion i.e muslim. certainly there were christians and jews and buddhist who in the name of religion committed the most barbaric violence ever since history was recorded.

I think most of what Dawkins says are rational but why select only one religion i.e muslim. certainly there were christians and jews and buddhist who in the name of religion committed the most barbaric violence ever since history was recorded.

I think most of what Dawkins says are rational but why select only one religion i.e muslim. certainly there were christians and jews and buddhist who in the name of religion committed the most barbaric violence ever since history was recorded.

I think most of what Dawkins says are rational but why select only one religion i.e muslim. certainly there were christians and jews and buddhist who in the name of religion committed the most barbaric violence ever since history was recorded.

I think most of what Dawkins are rational but why select only one religion i.e muslim certainly there were christians and jews and buddhist who in the name of religion committed the most barbaric violence ever since history was recorded.

Let's try to explain it this way. If you abandon reason as the means for adopting your beliefs, it is a matter of chance which belief you adopt. You can just as easily land on Al Qaida or the Inquisition as on universal love. In this sense, Steven Weinberg is right when he says "With or without religion, we will always have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But to have good people doing evil things, it takes religion." And Voltaire was right when he said "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
But if you base your beliefs on empirical, scientific investigation, you will have to use these techniques to investigate what actually does promote the welfare of people.
And altruistic actions do not require the motivation of religious belief. Most people will agree that birds have no religious beliefs; yet they will devote all theiir energies to flying to and from their nests to bring food to their offspring. Human morality probably evolved as our primate ancestors evolved to where they could speak and promulgated the nonverbal practices in their bands into prohibitions and injunctions. The rational justification for morality, as distinct from how it evolved and what motivates us to be moral to the extent we are, can be justified in terms of a social contract in which we all agree to not murder, rape, rob, etc each other and sanction anyone who does. We are all better off if we do not have to suffer the constant fear of being murdered, raped, robed, etc. The moral injunctions to provide mutual aid to each other can be justified with the same arguments; we are all better off if we have a reasonable assurance that others will come to our aid in certain circumstances.
The Christ Crazies who have been arguing that we are all intrinsically evil are wrong; as an animal species evolved by natural selection, we have developed a mix of altruistic and aggressive desires.
Those defending atheism have missed a crucial point, however. At least the comments I have read have missed it; I have not had time to read all 700+ comments. People have many of the same feelings towards secular ideologies as they have towards religions. Thus the Stalinists, because they were fanatical true believers murdered 60 million people in fighting for their secular religion. Although many of us have feelings about our humanistic beliefs about altruism and human progress that are the same as religious believers have about their religions, we all need to be on guard against becoming true believers. Being atheists has not made us perfect and freed us from the temptations that other humans are subject to. But at least since we have not abandoned reason, we are not subject to having no more reason to adopt beliefs that promote morality than to adopt beliefs in Al Qaida or the Inquisition. As others have pointed out, the Nazis were Christians and not atheists, even though Nazism and fascism were also secular beliefs about how societies should be organized. When we consider the historical record about the fervour with which Christians and Muslims murdered and tortured in their crusades and jihads we can conclude that the even larger number of people murdered and tortured by the Nazis and Stalinists were only because
of the superior technology available to them. The Islamaniacs and Christ Crazies may yet outdo the Nazis and Stalinists, especially since atomic crusades and nuclear jihads are now possible.

Let's try to explain it this way. If you abandon reason as the means for adopting your beliefs, it is a matter of chance which belief you adopt. You can just as easily land on Al Qaida or the Inquisition as on universal love. In this sense, Steven Weinberg is right when he says "With or without religion, we will always have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But to have good people doing evil things, it takes religion." And Voltaire was right when he said "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
But if you base your beliefs on empirical, scientific investigation, you will have to use these techniques to investigate what actually does promote the welfare of people.
And altruistic actions do not require the motivation of religious belief. Most people will agree that birds have no religious beliefs; yet they will devote all theiir energies to flying to and from their nests to bring food to their offspring. Human morality probably evolved as our primate ancestors evolved to where they could speak and promulgated the nonverbal practices in their bands into prohibitions and injunctions. The rational justification for morality, as distinct from how it evolved and what motivates us to be moral to the extent we are, can be justified in terms of a social contract in which we all agree to not murder, rape, rob, etc each other and sanction anyone who does. We are all better off if we do not have to suffer the constant fear of being murdered, raped, robed, etc. The moral injunctions to provide mutual aid to each other can be justified with the same arguments; we are all better off if we have a reasonable assurance that others will come to our aid in certain circumstances.
The Christ Crazies who have been arguing that we are all intrinsically evil are wrong; as an animal species evolved by natural selection, we have developed a mix of altruistic and aggressive desires.
Those defending atheism have missed a crucial point, however. At least the comments I have read have missed it; I have not had time to read all 700+ comments. People have many of the same feelings towards secular ideologies as they have towards religions. Thus the Stalinists, because they were fanatical true believers murdered 60 million people in fighting for their secular religion. Although many of us have feelings about our humanistic beliefs about altruism and human progress that are the same as religious believers have about their religions, we all need to be on guard against becoming true believers. Being atheists has not made us perfect and freed us from the temptations that other humans are subject to. But at least since we have not abandoned reason, we are not subject to having no more reason to adopt beliefs that promote morality than to adopt beliefs in Al Qaida or the Inquisition. As others have pointed out, the Nazis were Christians and not atheists, even though Nazism and fascism were also secular beliefs about how societies should be organized. When we consider the historical record about the fervour with which Christians and Muslims murdered and tortured in their crusades and jihads we can conclude that the even larger number of people murdered and tortured by the Nazis and Stalinists were only because
of the superior technology available to them. The Islamaniacs and Christ Crazies may yet outdo the Nazis and Stalinists, especially since atomic crusades and nuclear jihads are now possible.

Let's try to explain it this way. If you abandon reason as the means for adopting your beliefs, it is a matter of chance which belief you adopt. You can just as easily land on Al Qaida or the Inquisition as on universal love. In this sense, Steven Weinberg is right when he says "With or without religion, we will always have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But to have good people doing evil things, it takes religion." And Voltaire was right when he said "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
But if you base your beliefs on empirical, scientific investigation, you will have to use these techniques to investigate what actually does promote the welfare of people.
And altruistic actions do not require the motivation of religious belief. Most people will agree that birds have no religious beliefs; yet they will devote all theiir energies to flying to and from their nests to bring food to their offspring. Human morality probably evolved as our primate ancestors evolved to where they could speak and promulgated the nonverbal practices in their bands into prohibitions and injunctions. The rational justification for morality, as distinct from how it evolved and what motivates us to be moral to the extent we are, can be justified in terms of a social contract in which we all agree to not murder, rape, rob, etc each other and sanction anyone who does. We are all better off if we do not have to suffer the constant fear of being murdered, raped, robed, etc. The moral injunctions to provide mutual aid to each other can be justified with the same arguments; we are all better off if we have a reasonable assurance that others will come to our aid in certain circumstances.
The Christ Crazies who have been arguing that we are all intrinsically evil are wrong; as an animal species evolved by natural selection, we have developed a mix of altruistic and aggressive desires.
Those defending atheism have missed a crucial point, however. At least the comments I have read have missed it; I have not had time to read all 700+ comments. People have many of the same feelings towards secular ideologies as they have towards religions. Thus the Stalinists, because they were fanatical true believers murdered 60 million people in fighting for their secular religion. Although many of us have feelings about our humanistic beliefs about altruism and human progress that are the same as religious believers have about their religions, we all need to be on guard against becoming true believers. Being atheists has not made us perfect and freed us from the temptations that other humans are subject to. But at least since we have not abandoned reason, we are not subject to having no more reason to adopt beliefs that promote morality than to adopt beliefs in Al Qaida or the Inquisition. As others have pointed out, the Nazis were Christians and not atheists, even though Nazism and fascism were also secular beliefs about how societies should be organized. When we consider the historical record about the fervour with which Christians and Muslims murdered and tortured in their crusades and jihads we can conclude that the even larger number of people murdered and tortured by the Nazis and Stalinists were only because
of the superior technology available to them. The Islamaniacs and Christ Crazies may yet outdo the Nazis and Stalinists, especially since atomic crusades and nuclear jihads are now possible.

This is a great article. But...

The main point was well summarized in the quote, “With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”

This is wrong, as it implies that evil things cannot be done by average folk due to a lack of religion. And we are not talking about kill 6million Jews kind of evil here. We are talking about the little evils that undermine our happiness and take the society aback on regular basis.

For every case of KKK killing (righteously) in the name of religion, there is a case of a nazi killing (righteously) in the name of evolution.

Richard Dawkins would probably answer that both of these people are just evil, so let's talk about how good people can be lead astray by religion (and the lack thereof).

I will agree that there are normal everyday religious people that act in terrible manner because of their beliefs.
By the same token, there are examples of religious laws that may save people from acting in a terrible manner, as well.

In both instances, lack of knowledge is at fault, i'm sure. But knowledge is infinite, we will never know everything, so even a learned man lacks enough knowledge to never hurt anyone by accident.

Consider a case where a religious law could've kept a workaholic from breaking up his family (sabbath). Or a law that could've kept an ordinary man looking at his own plate (don't covet).

Surely there 9/11 men thought they were acting according to a religious law. But pointing this out leaves an assumption that equivalent tragedies haven't occurred under other influences, and that terrible things haven't been prevented by religious law.

What the author points out is only instances when religion causes bad, and atheism doesn't.
In order for complete evaluation we need to convert those to mathematical probabilities, and also consider probabilities when religion causes good, and atheism causes bad.

With those 4 statistics we can evaluate whether religion is truly worse than atheism, or vice versa.

Steven Weinberg is truly wise, but not all-knowing, and his statement should be expanded to, "With or without religion you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. With or without religion good people can do evil things. With or without religion good people may be helped from doing evil things with enough education."

There is a logical path from atheism to evil!
If you are an atheist by definition you believe that humans are simply an incredibly complex organization of atoms and that we live in an unthinking purposeless universe, then we you can conclude that there is no morality and no human rights. Therefore thaere is no reason not to commit any selfish act or any evil act from adultery to genocide!

Pittsman writes:

" I thought about the Japs and Germans in WWII . They were not motivated to kill by religion. And the Japs willingly and enthusiastically flew their planes into certain death."

Let's see - the Germans had the words "Gott mitt uns" (God with us) on their belt buckles, and the Japanese fought and died for the glory of their Emperor who they considered a living god. The word "Kamikaze" translates literally as "god-wind." Kami = god in Japanese.

Yep. No religion involved there at all.

"...But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”

I thought the quote would be better if it said "...But for good people to willingly and enthusiastically do evil things, it takes religion".

But then I thought about examples of good people willingly doing evil things who are not motivated by religion.

For example, the US Army, trains ordinarily peaceful recruits to murder and maim. But (we'd like to think) recruits don't enthusiastically do these immoral things.

Then I thought about the Japs and Germans in WWII . They were not motivated to kill by religion. And the Japs willingly and enthusiastically flew their planes into certain death.

And the the yanks and rebs enthusiastically killed each other in the Civil war. It had nothing to do with religion.

Seems like the claim that religion is not the "only" motivator for good people to act evil. The concepts of "nation and country" can be just as dangerous as religion.

@Stallgiss

\quote\
" Murder, torture, and cruelty (according to Dawkins) are entirely the fault of religion because atheists cannot possibly ever commit crimes or cause suffering in others. "
\quote\

Regarding your nonsens, you obviously did not read the article. Dawkins says something completely different than what you are making of it.

For all the wiseguys, Dawkins states that being nonreligious doesn't lead him to approve murder and cruelty, where this is completely different for 'some' people who are religious. And guess what? He's right.

Look how much cruelty is committed 'in name of'. For some religious folks this doesn't matter of course. Hurting a person may be far more acceptable than hurting a mythological figure and/or disobey its rules. Isn't it?

OK. Now that's exactly the point. There are many religions that claim to provide the world with the one and only true truth. Which religion this is (if any) doesn't matter, point is that a majority of religions are based on nonsense. Regarding that theoretically 'true' one. So a majority of religious people have faith in a non-existing god and obey stupid rules and regulations.

Almost every religion has inspired people to prosecute other people because of their faith, because they might have sinned, because they did not match in, or for whatever reason. So at least the majority of these prosecuted people have been prosecuted for nonsense.

Now a simple question: would this majority have been prosecuted for not believing/obeying nonsense if their prosecuters had not believed in that nonsense? You do the math.

So. And how many people have been brutally prosecuted by atheists because they didn't comply with atheism? There are no radical atheist movements who want to 'save' the world by using brutal force. Simply because that would not make sense at all. Atheism isn't an ideology. Atheism doesn't have anything to do with faith or believing.

I have only read through half of this thread, but the terrible logic that is so prevalent with some people, is astounding.

The article is rather simple to understand, or at least I thought that it was. The cognitive processes that are required to become a devout believer in something that there is absolutely no evidence for, the reaffirming nature and collective power of organized religion, the backward logic of much of what is contained in religious books, as well as the ability to use those books to justify all manner of terrible behaviour (it is true), can lead to good people, on the whole, committing evil acts. What is difficult to understand?

There are mountains of evidence for this, as well. Nobody has, or is, suggesting that ALL religion is evil, or that ALL religious people are able to commit such acts. It is a matter of fact that a suspension of evidential reason is fertile ground for brainwashing, and in some cases, mass murder. That is all that Richard Dawkins is saying.

Atheism = lack of belief in a supernatural being.

Atheism doesn't provide anything, and it shouldn't even be necessary for people to be described, at all. How can anyone logically suggest that a lack of belief in something can lead to evil? That is intellectually dishonest, in my opinion. Of course, there are many belief systems that can lead to a similar suspension of reason. Nobody is suggesting that there isn’t. Unless people haven’t noticed, religion, in all of its forms, is followed by more people than all other belief systems put together, I would imagine.

Not only can religious belief lead to fanaticism, but it also leads many of its followers to make wholly irrational judgements about public policy. Of course, ignorance of all types leads to a similar outcome, quite often. What is undeniable, however, is that religion is the number one player in much of the world today. That is why it is being examined, as it is. There is also a spiritual element to religion that is much more powerful than many other belief systems. The idea of a supernatural being is exploited by all religion - even Christianity.

Most churches exploit their congregation in exactly the same way that advertising companies attempt to exploit us. You are being sold religion, after all.

Rick,Gerry,Steve Holgate & many others with Reason, sensible questions and comments:

I liked your note Gerry its reason vs superstition and not Islam Vs Christianity or others. For you i advise to see below comments of mine.
Rick, you asked about Hell and Havens and told about population comparison. For you my dear, we are only responsible for our own actions. At the end good deeds and bad deeds were never rewarded equally and never will be(though in appearance you find injustice), logic tells! My believe tells i have the responsibility to seek KNOWLEDGE of world as well to reach the truth, other wise i will left ingorant and end up in hell. (If you are sincere enough you will find the answer of ALL the questions that hinders you and create doubts- ANSWERS ARE ALL OUT THERE!!)
Steve Holgate, dear you talk about lack of scientific proof, I suggest you to also read below comments carefully!!!

Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation. Below are few examples in the favor of their belief:

For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. AND AS A FACT MUSLIMS KNOW THEY WERE REVEALED BEFORE DISCOVERED AND FURTHER ON TOP OF IT THAT NOT A SINGLE VERSE OF THEIR HOLY BOOK IS IN CONFLICT WITH ANY LOGICAL/SCIENTIFIC APPROACH (INFECT EVERY TIME SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES PROVIDING PROOF IN FAVOR OF THE LAST REVELATIONS), MAKE THEM MORE FOCUSED / PRACTICING /FUNDAMENTALIST OR WHAT EVER OTHERS THINK ABOUT THEM and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...SIMPLY APPLY THE SCIENTIFIC RULE OF PROBABILITY....What if 80% of Qur’an is in conformation with 100% of Science and 20% of it is beyond humans comprehension then logic says it would be also correct, if not now then in future...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
And the world is expanding. (it is also said in Qur’an I guess in Sura Nisa)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

PLEASE COMMENTS ARE NOT NECESSARY WITHOUT VARIFICATION / RESEARCH OF THE ORIGINAL TEXT AND AUTHENTIC TRANSLATIONS BY ONLY MUSLIM SCHOLARS TO AVOID ANY TWISTING AND DECEPTIVE TECHNIQUES IN GENERAL PRACTICE!!

Jesus (Isa) A.S. in Islam, and his Second Coming
by Mufti A.H. Elias
I. Jesus (A.S.) In Islam
Muslims do believe that Isa (A.S.) was sent down as a Prophet of Allah (God), but he (Jesus) is not God or Lord, nor the son of God. Muslims do not believe that Isa (A.S.), also known as Jesus by Christians and others, is dead or was ever crucified. We believe that he was raised to heaven and is there, and will descend at the appointed time, end all wars, and bring peace to the world. Like Jesus (A.S.), Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is also a Prophet and Messenger. Muhammed (P.B.U.H.) is the last Prophet, though, and there is none after him. Hence, Islam is the last religion, complete, with the Holy Qur'an as the unchanged and perfect word of God for over 1400 years, AS GOD PROMISED TO PRESERVE IT TILL THE LAST DAY FOR ALL OF HUMANKIND, UNLIKE SACRED TEXTS OF OTHER RELIGIONS WHICH HAVE MULITPLE VERSIONS AND ARE "REVISED" PERIODICALLY BY MAN. God, or Allah in Arabic, is Divine and Supreme Being and Creator.
What the Holy Qur'an says about Jesus:
They slew him not, nor did they crucify him but it was made dubious to them.
(Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157)
Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) himself told of the coming of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). In the Bible, Jesus (A.S.) says,
IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. AND I WILL PRAY TO THE FATHER AND HE SHALL GIVE YOU ANOTHER COMFORTER THAT HE MAY ABIDE WITH YOU FOREVER.
(Bible, John 14-15/16)

BUT WHEN THE COMFORTER IS COME, WHOM I WILL SEND UNTO YOU FROM THE FATHER, EVEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, WHICH PROCEEDETH FROM THE FATHER, HE SHALL TESTIFY OF ME, AND HE ALSO SHALL BEAR WITNESS, BECAUSE YE HAVE BEEN WITH ME FROM THE BEGINNING.
(Bible, John 15-26/27)

I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. How be it when he, the spirit of Truth will come, he will guide you into all truth, FOR HE SHALL SPEAK NOT OF HIMSELF, BUT WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, that he shall speak, AND HE WILL SHOW YOU THINGS TO COME. He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine, and he shall show it unto you.
(Bible, John 16-12/14)
Ulema (learned scholars in Islam) have said that the person who is described by Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) to come after him - in the above verse - does not comply with any other person but Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him).
In this case, the "comforter" he mentions is none other than Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and his laws and way of life (Shariah) and Book (Holy Qur'an) are those that Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) asks his followers to abide by.
THE "PERSON" WHOM JESUS (A.S.) PROPHECISED WILL COME AFTER HIM, IS CALLED PARGALEETA IN THE BIBLE . THIS WORD WAS DELETED BY INTERPRETERS AND TRANSLATORS AND CHANGED AT TIMES TO "SPIRIT OF TRUTH" AND AT OTHER TIMES, TO "COMFORTER" AND SOMETIMES "HOLY SPIRIT." THE ORIGINAL GREEK AND ITS MEANING IS "ONE WHOM PEOPLE PRAISE EXCEEDINGLY." THE SENSE OF THE WORD, THEN, IS APPLICABLE TO THE WORD MUHAMMAD IN ARABIC, SINCE MUHAMMAD MEANS "THE PRAISED ONE."
Jesus (A.S.) also says in the Bible,
... AND A LITTLE WHILE AND YOU SHALL NOT SEE ME; AND AGAIN A LITTLE WHILE, YOU SHALL SEE ME BECAUSE I GO TO THE FATHER.
(Bible, John 16:16)
... and the Holy Qur'an says,
And surely they slew him not. But Allah (God) raised him unto Himself.
(Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157-158)
As such, Muslims believe that Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) was raised to heaven. According to Hadith, he is on the second heaven. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam=Peace be upon him) mentioned, "During the Meraj (Ascension), I met Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) on the second heaven. I found him of medium stature, reddish white. His body was so clean and clear, that it appeared as though he had just performed ghusal (ablution, cleansing of the entire body) and come." In another Hadith, Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) mentioned to the Jews that, " Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) is not dead, he will most surely return to you before Qiyamat (the Day of Judgement)."
May Allah Guide all people to the Truth. Aameen.

First of all I would like to say "Taliban" does not represent 1.6 billion muslims across the world. But do represent the atrosities of American and Soviet so called developed, but i'm sorry to say mentally retarted.......? blood thirsty, power hungry, materialists which means what all matters is wealth, what ever it takes beggining from slater of 150 million red indians, and so many mass slaters across the world, it was just the start and is on going till today.
You red necks - white cannibels...i wished that i was wrong saying that...all you make fancy speeches...but what you do in reality throw your extra crops in the sea to maintain the market price... where almost 1 billion human sleep without a single meal every day. And at the face you pretend you are doing billions of charity.BS

And if you are not DEAF, you like to take about SCIENCE, EVIDENCE, LOGIC , PROOF, then read my next post, you can easily find the authentic translations on internet about Quran. It was not Muslim religion Islam which caused all that. Even 9/11 was inside job evidence all over media and internet to further hyper the crazyness against Islam by your REPRESENTATIVE leaders to exploit resoures of muslim world. 9/11 was plotted to just made an excuse to blame 1.6 billion muslims and exploit them. Weopon of mass distruction in Iraq, future agenda/plans to nuck Iran at the peak. Even before that your history is filled, creating lies to your advantage and acting brutally. You shameless CREATURES!!!!!

Dear Professor Dawkins

Since you were raised as a Christian, may I ask you when you last read the Bible? My suggestion: take one evening off to read the New Testament in one sitting. Please, please do explain to us believers then how your logic would lead you to do evil deeds in the name of Christianity. Do the Ten Commandments lead you to do evil deeds? Does the Dhammapada logically lead to do evil deeds? That must be some logic indeed, if it does inspire you to give up your humanitarian tendencies and start to do evil deeds!

The logic of C S Lewis and Bede Griffiths led them from atheism to Christianity. You might like to read about their logical path in the books: "Surprised by Joy" (C S Lewis) and "The Golden String" (Bede Griffiths).

Logic is a double edged sword. It might be more realistic to remember that the logic of an atheist is prone to human errors. Self reference may not be the highest point of reference in all cases - think of homicidal psychopaths.

As a believer I'm told that man has been created with a free will to choose evil or good.

As to self referenced sexual morality: I was told by a very well meaning self referenced man that if only humans would go back to bonobo-ape sexual behaviour, we would all be much happier as a species. He, like you, is quite angry with religions for introducing restrictions to the "unlimited joy." Professor Dawkins, I encourage you to compile the statistics on the "unlimited joy" of teenage single mothers, large scale abortions, single parenthood, lonely middle and late age, STDs, sexual crimes and sexual exploitation... On what basis does an atheist prohibit such "unlimited joy?"

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

This is an absurd line of reasoning. Dawkins continues his bad habit of equating all religion with the likes of the Taliban. That's like equating all political views with the Nazis. Yes, some religious points of view can lead people to do bad things. Then again, some religious points of view can lead people to do good things as well, something anti-religious bigots like Dawkins have a hard time acknowledging. And another obvious point bigots like Dawkins have a hard time acknowledging is that secular and atheist points of view can and have led many people to do bad things as well. Stalinism and Maoism, together responsible for more deaths than all of history's religious wars combined, were atheistic points of view that led many people to do horrible things in service of the respective ideologies. It is simply ridiculous bigotry to single out religion as the only type of ideology that drives people to do bad things. Should all political ideologies be condemned because they have sometime led good people to do bad things?

Bottom line, to paraphrase Weinberg: With or without religion you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes ideology, religious or otherwise. To think that only religion can do that is just ignorant bigotry. That an otherwise intelligent person like Dawkins can be blind to such an obvious point belies his claim to his atheism being intellectually superior. He's just another ignorant bigot blinded by his emotional commitment to his personal ideology - the same kind of dangerous, blind faith driven bigoted ignorance he accuses others of.

This is an absurd line of reasoning. Dawkins continues his bad habit of equating all religion with the likes of the Taliban. That's like equating all political views with the Nazis. Yes, some religious points of view can lead people to do bad things. Then again, some religious points of view can lead people to do good things as well, something anti-religious bigots like Dawkins have a hard time acknowledging. And another obvious point bigots like Dawkins have a hard time acknowledging is that secular and atheist points of view can and have led many people to do bad things as well. Stalinism and Maoism, together responsible for more deaths than all of history's religious wars combined, were atheistic points of view that led many people to do horrible things in service of the respective ideologies. It is simply ridiculous bigotry to single out religion as the only type of ideology that drives people to do bad things. Should all political ideologies be condemned because they have sometime led good people to do bad things?

Bottom line, to paraphrase Weinberg: With or without religion you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes ideology, religious or otherwise. To think that only religion can do that is just ignorant bigotry. That an otherwise intelligent person like Dawkins can be blind to such an obvious point belies his claim to his atheism being intellectually superior. He's just another ignorant bigot blinded by his emotional commitment to his personal ideology - the same kind of dangerous, blind faith driven bigoted ignorance he accuses others of.

Daniel

You are right.

I went with a number of girls like Mary Cunningham when I was trying to be a heterosexual

and they keep putting you in double binds and insulting you and telling you that you aren't good enough in all sorts of ways.

So: you just have to stop trying to respond rationally to her cause nothing you do can be reasonable and rational enough for her.

peace
Henry

I know everyone has gone, but to any who happen back I just want to thank you all for a nice read, interesting perspectives, insights I hadn't considered or perhaps had considered but enjoyed the wording and the thought behind them. I even enjoyed the euphemisms, and rejoinder as did the old bard, "Oh, what a piece of work a man is, how infinite in reasoning, how noble in faculty..."

I hope we can all get along. This is a great planet, and we live in a great, exciting time. No need to fear, no need to belittle differences in belief or wonder where the world is headed. It will work itself out, and all who are dialoguing and thinking are helping the process. Thanks, all.

I think that you are confusing religious activities with extremist activities. What drives people to extremes has much to do with the person's motivations, and less to do with their religion. It is as likely for an extremist feminist activist to blow something up as it is for an extremist Christian, Muslim, Communist, Anarchist,or, yes, even an Atheist activist to blow something up. We are governed by the choices that we make, and there are people out there who prey on the unfortunate choices of others. Many of them do it under the guise of religion, but many do it under the guise of the common good or national security. Wherever there is a cause, there will be abuse of power, and that is a separate issue from religion itself.

Freestinker: “…from my experience, many believers are easily offended when their beliefs are questioned.”

I know, and I also know that it’s likely that unless they are confronted with their beliefs, nothing will change and it will continue to seem weird that there are upstanding citizens in the most advanced country in the world who do not believe in invisible supernatural beings. I also think that it’s a lot easier to approach these sensitive subjects online where people don’t have to react immediately – or at all – to shocking or perceived offensive remarks.

Mary Cunningham

You told me not to use caps, because it is rude. And I apologized for being rude. But on second thought, why should I apologize? I was rude on purpose; I knew I was being rude; I meant to be rude; you deserve rudeness, and a good kick in the pants, if you ask me.

Have a nice trip. We will all miss your self-important and self-congratulatory attitude, and you nit-pickiness and time-wasting about things inimportant and utterly irrelavant.

HJ--love and kisses to you Henry,I never said all atheists are killers. But, I am a wee bit suspicious of your stats and I think you've been talking to too many cab drivers about regression analysis.

A tip: Next time you want choose an irish name--stick to the easy ones: Murphy and Kelly are fine..Don't add any O's or Mc's since the ones that have O's don't do very well with Mc and vice verse. To an Irish ear a misplaced O sounds very odd, not, of course,as funny as an English name with an affixed O, which sounds hilarious, but I guess you have to be Irish to hear the humour.

Anyway, since I've allowed up to postgrad studies, degrees &tc. in PPE (philosophy,politics and economics)I am bound to say that communisim and nazism were ideologies derived from 19th not 20th c. philosophies: Marxism and Social Darwinism respectively. The dominant ideology of the 19th c: liberalism (as practiced in England, say from 1830-1880) derived a lot from Malthus's work. Liberal ideology held that the famine in Ireland was caused by overbreeding and that the state should refrain from intervening overmuch. Over one million Irish died in in four years of terrible famine directly--IMO-- as a result of that inhumane ideology. A foretaste of what catastrophes the implementation of bad 19th philosophies would wreck on the 20th century.

Bad ideas have bad consequences.

Anyway...happy taxis, Henry. Back in a month or so or maybe not so soon.

Mary Cunningham

I only post as Daniel.

Your comments are consistently arrogant, rude, and mean. If there is anything Christian in you, you keep it very well hidden. You are the atheist's excuse for not even considering the Christian point-of-view.

Forgive me for being so rude, but I just couldn't hold it in a minute more!

Luv ya Mary. you are SO wacky!!!

I have never mentioned Father o'whatshisname. don't know where you got that idea. come to think of it, don't know where you get any of your ideas.

I admit now that you were right: Marx's central aim was to make everyone an atheist like he was. The communism part was an afterthought. See, I AM senile.

I am now off to have tea and wafers with the Pope.

Luv ya mary.

Daniel,

Were *you* 'Father O'Marlowe'? I;m trying to find him.

You shouldn't use caps. They're rude and your persona would like us to believe you are scholarly. But you felt left out of the bunfest didn't you? Well, you don't own Christianity--but then neither do I.

Anyway, I have never 'defended' Christianity--it can and has defended itself. I have studied 20th c. ideologies and twentieth c. global and economic history and feel quite competent to occasionally comment on those.

Freethinker (stinker?):

God! I've been in Blighty (slang for England) too long. Bunfest--maybe bunfight?--comes from English public schools, where instead of eating the boys would throw buns at eachother. Previously, English rolls were extremely hard so they made good missiles, currently they have become softer so my godson says the fights are not so great as lore would have it.

A good bunfest, I've been told, is extremely satisfying.

I'm off. I'll leave you to Daniel and his lengthy prose stuff.

Nan, You Got the Logic Wrong

you write "Dawkins posits a logical (almost inevitable) path from religious belief to aggressive behavior tinged with self-righteousness,"

No, Dawkins does NOT do this.

He clearly believes that many/most religious believers to mostly good things.

What he DOES say is

Atheism (NOT believing in a theistic god) will not induce a Good person to do bad things.

Religion will, at times, (clearly not always) induce a good person to do bad things.

It seems to me he is pretty clearly correct about that.

Do you have an example of an Good Person atheist who says

"because i don 't believe in God, it is OK to steal your money."

that is what he means by "logical connection."

there is none between atheism and bad behavior.
there *sometimes* is between religion and bad behavior.

Nan,

Well put. And let me add ...

Nor does Dawkins account for all the evil done for so many countless other reasons.

The most we can conclude from Dawkins essay is that some peolple are motivated by religion to do evil things.

So what's new?

Dear Mary Cunningham

Dear, sweet, Catholic, Mary Cunningham:

What a jerk! You are EXACTLY what Dawkins was talking about. If you want to defend Christianity, DON'T.

You only give ALL Christians a bad name.

Mary C.,

What exactly do you mean by "bunfest"?

Seriously. I've never heard that term before.

Some of us in this discussion are displaying precisely the same fallacy that is in Dawkins' original post. Dawkins posits a logical (almost inevitable) path from religious belief to aggressive behavior tinged with self-righteousness, despite the inconvenient existence of people whose religious belief leads them to charitable behavior graced with humility.

Others assert that, in the absence of a judging God, an atheist will indulge in anything -- ie, that there is a logical (inevitable) path from atheism to vicious behavior. But in fact, atheist existentialism demands highly ethical behavior made even more virtuous by the lack of supernatural incentives. (This is no new idea -- it goes back to Aristotle at least, and was revived by existentialist theologians like Paul Tillich.) So this assertion exhibits the same nonsense as Dawkins -- literally nonsense, as in "This assertion makes no sense." It offers a false explanation for a given event and ignores important conflicting data.

E-Fav,

"I’m curious? Is this a logical deduction you’ve made or is it based on your experience?"

Both.

For those who debate by the rules of logic, ad hominems just aren't very persuasive.

And rationality aside, they just piss peolple off and they tune out.

I know you didn't mean it that way. Your arguments are very polite and well reasoned but from my experience many believers are easily offended when their beliefs are questioned.

It's hard to get around that. I know I should generally be more delicate myself.

What a bunfest!

I loved dear 'enry swapping nice notes with good Godfrey...two atheist dears lumping me with 'Father O'Marlowe'! We were talking about fake religions and up pops out very own fake father with a fake Irish name.

'O'Marlowe'--my oh my. However did he think that one up? Oh well, even a dog can post on the internet...(I didn't say that, the NYT did).

The mental gymnastics performed by the atheist academy to deny the atheist motivations of the communists were most impressive. At one point it seemed that good Godfrey was going to produce a couple of sermons preached by Pol Pot to prove he was a born-again Catholic--notice he--Godfrey not Pol Pot--didn't cite anything to back up his point. When one's a member of the atheist academy one can do that. But, not to be too harsh on Godfrey and his googling, there's probably an atheist website somewhere that proves his point.

And Henry James exclaiming his taxi driver understood causation and correlation! A taxi driver in Cambridge who understands regression analysis--what can I say? I catch a cab in London and I generally get asked what part of Ireland I come from! To be able to discuss regression analysis with one's taxi driver: some people have all the luck.

Incidentally, EFav. "incarnate" means having a bodily form, especially a human form. The Incarnation means God took a human form--Jesus Christ. That form only lasted as long as he was on earth. God is spirit, not body...and a good thing too!

But I've had it! Can't face the SCABs here(scornful atheist bores), can't be bothered with correcting the errors of people who claim to have a monopoly on rationality and intelligence. Give me Pope Benedict XVI anyday!

For E-Favorite

What if, you believe in something, comparable to the supernatural, but not what is "traditionally" thought of as the supernatural? Then the word, "supernatural" is not exactly the right word to use, because it makes people think of something different than your intent? In such a case, you cannot easily communicate your thought without first defining some new kind of word, and then, that takes time, and the clock is ticking, and people are not all that interested.

What if you believe in "God," comparable to the supernatural, omniscient being, but not what is "traditionally" thought of as the supernatural being? So, it would be difficult to communicate your ideas, the way you intend them, without first taking a time-out to define things. And once again, people are not all that interested, if you go very far afield. What I think and believe is not really very conducive to short, flip conversations.

If you say "supernatural" you are thinking of angels, and cherubim, and ghosts, and seances, and astrology, and black magic, and Satan-worship, and even paganism, then I do not believe in any of that, nor any of those things.

Ditto with regards to the word "God."

But, I, as a living and intelligent being, have definite and distinct impressions of order. (I use this phrase "impressions of order" to refer to all of existence, and my perceptions of it; I usually don't define it because, it is somewhat self-explanatory, especially if you sit and think about it awhile).

I know alot of people just experience these impressions of order, wihtout curiousiy, as they are provided to them, to navigate through this world in which we dwell.

And I do that too. But, also, I wonder about these mysterious impressions of order, and what causes them to impress me as they do, and what they might be.

Hugh Taft-Morales: Thank you very much for your explanation of humanism. I agree with all you say, except this: “…[atheism] does allow more readily than religion [for] humans to decide not to act, and not to care about others.”

I’ve personally seen no indication of this, don’t understand why it would be so, and am interested to know if this is a conclusion of yours or is based on research.

On a related subject, I’d like to hear how religious people describe their ethical systems and how it relates to their religious beliefs. I suspect that many of them are essentially humanists, except for their beliefs in the supernatural. It would be interesting to know it that’s true. If so, it could form a bridge between atheists (many of whom are humanists) and believers (many of whom are guided by humanist principles that are also religious principles).

Jack,

You miss the point also. Stalin didn't justify his evil with his religious views (or lack there of).

Just because an atheist kills doesn't mean he kills because of his atheism. Likewise for theists. But the point is that many people are motivated to kill because of their religion.

That just makes them bad people but not significantly different than all the other bad people.

(Sorry for the repeat post!)

Jack,

You miss the point also. Stalin didn't justify his evil with his religious views (or lack there of).

Just because an atheist kills doesn't mean he kills because of his atheism. Likewise for theists. But the point is that many people are motivated to kill because of their religion.

That just makes them bad people but not significantly different than all the other bad people.

Freestinker: “I agree with your point but it's not that persuasive to believers”

I’m curious? Is this a logical deduction you’ve made or is it based on your experience?

I don’t think many, if any believers are going to immediately (if ever) drop their belief in the supernatural because extreme religious groups like the Taliban share the belief, but I do think it’s important to point it out. It is a fact, after all, and a central part of both belief systems.

I couldn’t help but question my own beliefs, when I started comparing the Islamic extremist belief of being greeted by 72 virgins in heaven to the Christian belief that Jesus was born of a virgin (what is it with these virgins?) rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, where he now lives, incarnate, 2,000 years later.

In this commentary, Dawkins argues that religion makes one more likely to cause human suffering than does a belief in atheism or humanism. He says that “atheists and humanists tend to define good and bad deeds in terms of the welfare and suffering of others,” whereas religious people often define good and bad in terms of reference to God. I accept this explanation of the general approach to definition. But what is not raised is the question of how people act regarding their definition of good and bad. In this regard, I think it is important to distinguish atheism and humanism.

Many people believe that while the non-religious may define good and bad in humanistic terms, atheism itself does not necessarily promote humanistic values or lead one to promote the good and lessen the bad. Religious followers say that atheism, by removing a theistic motivating force, “logically” allows for apathy, indifference to suffering, and nihilism.

For many, religion does motivate people to make a positive difference in the world better than atheism through theistic and spiritual motivation for dramatic action. Certainly dramatic religious action can be evil and can increase human suffering (as is the case with religious terrorists), but one cannot ignore the argument that atheism, without a positive direction, can lead to apathy. If Dawkins can use the term “logically” to describe how religion contains a conceptual alternative to valuing human life, then we say that atheism “logically” offers a conceptual path that allows for apathy.

Dawkins writes, "There is a logical path from religious faith to evil deeds. There is no logical path from atheism to evil deeds. …it can never be rational to say that, because of my nonbelief in religion, it would be good to be cruel, to murder, to oppress women, or to perpetrate any of the evils on the Hitchens list."
I agree that atheism does not provide rational sanction for evil deeds, but it does allow more readily than religion humans to decide not to act, and not to care about others.

Humanism, which promotes the inherent worth of every human being, however, is more of a positive philosophy. It avoids the charge of “logically” promoting apathy, indifference, and nihilism. My atheism is an intellectual belief, but in my ethical life I believe humanism is a better alternative to religion or atheism.

E-Fav,

When we compare examples of supernatural belief like the Taliban to less radical religions like Lutherans we inadvertantly equivicate the believers themselves. Then it becomes an ad hominem to them.

I agree with your point but it's not that persuasive to believers.

Charles – I’ve had many good discussions here with believers – I was one recently myself, so the concept is hardly foreign to me. I don’t doubt that you’ve made an informed decision about you faith or that you try respond to others with kindness, mercy and friendship (so do I and many atheists I know). I also know as long as your religion involves belief in an invisible supernatural being, I can’t respect that aspect of it, anymore than I would respect your continued belief in Santa Claus. Sorry if that sounds harsh. It is the simple truth.

One more thing – I recall the few “live” discussions I’d get into when I was a believer, always with the same atheist friend. He’d say, “How can you believe that stuff – it doesn’t make any sense.” To which I’d confidently respond, “That’s why they call it faith!” And that’s where the conversation would end. Once when that happened, I got a glimmer of how silly that sounded. About another year later, a light bulb went off. Even then, I didn’t drop my beliefs overnight – I did concerted research into the bible and church history. Now it’s just as likely that I’d go back to believing in God as I’d go back to believing in Santa. Hope that helps.

Right - ever heard of Joe Stalin - he defined everything in terms of retribution and self-protection. He never let a grudge go - he always punished his enemies and if he got the chance to murder them he did - and it didn't matter what contribed lie he had to make up. Joe was an atheist.
You can come up with any theory you want Richard but this one is terribly easy to shoot down.
The distinction you are trying to make is between ideology and ethics and you made a mess out of it.
There is no evidence that Bin Ladin or the Tailban actually believe in God because Islam punishes unbelievers with death - they might as well all be atheists for that matter but choose to cloak their disbelief in Jihad.

OK, so what's Dawkins' point?

Religion can be a motivation for some people to do evil things. So what's new? People do evil things all the time for all sorts of reasons. That's what people do. Has religion been a common motivation? Yes. Have there been a thousand and one different reasons that people have done horrible things. Yes. Greed, jealousy, blood lust, rage, racism, desperation, political ideology ... etc.

But when you boil it all down, my conclusion is that humans just do evil things. It’s part of who we are and what we do, simple as that.

OK, so people do bad things. And over the course of history they have sometimes justified those evil deeds with their religion, whatever it happens to be. But that's because religion is so much a part of so many people not because religion is somehow inherently bad. That's a gross and false generalization. Religion only turns bad when people us it to do bad things. The problem is with bad people not religion, per se.

If his only point is that some people are motivated to do evil things by their religion, then Dawkins has only stated the obvious and not really convinced me of anything new.

Hi, E Favorite ... I actually went home last night. Sorry!

I do feel that directing you to the sources answers your question. I'm a reference librarian, so I am sending you to the already-available sites where countless examples are to be found. If you read them and do not perceive the tone and attitude I'm talking about, I will be very surprised indeed.

As for that remark you quoted, it displays precisely the same fallacy that is in Dawkins' original post. Dawkins posits a logical (almost inevitable) path from religious belief to aggressive behavior tinged with self-righteousness, despite the inconvenient existence of people whose religious belief leads them to charitable behavior graced with humility.

The person you quote asserts that, in the absence of a judging God, an atheist will indulge in anything -- ie, that there is a logical (inevitable) path from atheism to vicious behavior. But in fact, atheist existentialism demands highly ethical behavior made even more virtuous by the lack of supernatural incentives. (This is no new idea -- it goes back to Aristotle at least, and was revived by existentialist theologians like Paul Tillich.) So this person is voicing the same nonsense as Dawkins -- literally nonsense, as in "This assertion makes no sense." It offers a false explanation for a given event and ignores important conflicting data.

Karl Berland: “Dawkins has just lumped Sister [sic] Theresa and Pope John Paul II with the Taliban. Good luck defending that position Dawkins.”

This is not to say that Lutherans and other religious people are identical to the Taliban, just that they have one major common element that atheists lack – belief in an invisible supernatural being. Though there are as many supernatural beings as people can make up, in the case you present, it is the same supernatural being – The God of Abraham – who supposedly responds to his followers in very different and sometimes conflicting ways, depending on their varying belief systems. I find that hard to believe. Don’t you?

So, Karl, while I could easily respect how you live your life in service to others, as long as you credit an invisible supernatural being as your inspiration, I don’t respect your belief, anymore than I respect that same belief among the Taliban.

Just one logical argument would be nice.

Saying your brand of thought does not lead to something while someone else's does is as biased as what you blame religion for.

Any philosophy can be used to justify evil acts. It is the nature of evil to "con" people using partial "truths" so that it is easy to swollow.

Face it, religious beliefs have been used to justify evil acts. That is because evil people have warped what the religion is really about and convinced people to do bad things because of their zeleous faith. You must also note, however, that the majority of the world is religious in some form and statistically there is no "proof" that one group is more likely to cause harm as any other.

Athiest beliefs have also been used to justify evil acts. Saying that athiest states don't do evil because of the fact that they are atheist (it is because of totalitarism) is a cop-out. States like these simply used the "religion is bad" philosophy to justify their bad deeds and in fact inflicted countless harm on religious people because of their beliefs. If you have any doubt about this look at China. It is supposed to be an athiest state. They abolished religion. However, they replaced the worship of gods with the control of the state. They propose that logic would demand the things they do and are justified because they are good for the people. Of course, a very small sect get to decide what is good for the people but this has always been the way of such states.

Logic, when misapplied can also be quite harmful. Just because an athiest subscribes to what they consider logical reasoning does not mean it cannot be used against them. In fact, since there is no unifying society for athiest they are quite often isolated emotionally and that makes them fundamentally sucesptible to being influenced in a negative fashion (to lash back at those they percieve harming them). Just as I see on these blogs regularly. You think we are religious nuts, we think you are a misguided soul. Most religions leave it at that, so should you.

Persecution does not happen just between religions. It exists anywhere that a way of thinking opposes another. Athiest are just as likely to commit an evil act as anyone else. This alone refutes the points raised by Mr. Dawkins.

The true problem exist when anyone allows others to think for them.

This is the fundamental state of the world: Bad people will try and control all those that are not willing to stand up for themselves, think for themselves and to act on their beliefs.

My religion teaches me that I must show others, THROUGH MY ACTIONS, what it is to be a good christian. That means actually showing people kindness, mercy, friendship, and to NEVER cause harm. Am I perfect in this, no.

Your belief teaches you that I am crazy (a bias by the way), leading you to discount me and to supress my freedoms (you have called for abolishing religions), and pure logic would lead one to believe that fundamentally better education equates to better people. Yet you won't admit that this can be used, just as any religion has been used, to the detriment of mankind!

Give me a break. The only logical argument I have seen from the athiest on this blog has been about the irrationality of religious beliefs. In this you are 100% correct. That is because it requires faith in something greater. Something that cannot be explained or even comprehended. Of course it cannot be rationally proven. I would be more than glad to discuss these issues with any of you to show why my faith is justified to me, just as I would love to discuss why you don't have such faith. To explore where your belief's do come from and to examine my own to make sure that I am not falling into the trap of blind faith but instead am making an informed decision of what I believe.

That should be the reason for these blogs. Not for each side to simply bash the other. Drop the bias and seek debate for what it brings!

Mr. Dawkins is right on the money here. I am an atheist and considered evil by some because I do not believe in the supernatural. I am a kind, decent person who would not hurt a fly, but it does not matter to them. I am not saying the religion is bad in and of itself, but it does open to the door to beliefs that run counter to logic AND to, what I feel to be, inherent ideas of good and evil in humans. It also leaves people vulnerable to the truly evil such as the Taliban and Tele-evangelists etc. because religion places faith and blind obedience above reason and logic.

I find Richard Dawkins article on "Logical Paths" to be helpful. As a life long Lutheran who daily practices to live a life of faith and service to all of God's people and all of God's creation I find that Dawkins lumping me in with Taliban as 'religious' folk to be insulting beyond reason. Dawkins has just lumped Sister Theresa and Pope John Paul II with the Taliban. Good luck defending that position Dawkins.

Using the 'logic' of Dawkins I know know that I can lump all atheists and humanists with the worst of their kind, the kind who have no moral values regarding taking lives, oppressing women, oppressing people of different backgrounds.

Now, using the equivalent logic of Dawkins we can all point to any atheist, humanist or by his twisted logic as evil people, not interested in the welfare of humankind.

Thank you Professer Dawkins, you've just helped bring society to a new lower point. I will reference your position when discussing the moral superiority of aetheists vs. people of real faith.

And thank you, editors of the Washington Post, for the very odd thought process that this type of writing fosters anything positive in our society. I understand the trends our downward in the readership of newspapers, and publishers have the audacity to blame the public for not caring. To the contrary, we care, and we choose not to read because to the complete loss of western society values and traditions.

If one takes Dawkins views seriously, there's a good chance that the animal kingdom (including homo sapiens) will become inevitably or invariably undistinguishable!

I'm reminded of what Einstein said about God!

He came to the conclusion - after E=MC2 - that
there's more to the universe which science cannot explain.

That's why he got interested in the thoughts of God! Buddhism was a source of redemtion for his growing secular curiosity.

Dawkins is a product of anglo-saxon culture. If he understands or even accepts other cultures is a valid question.

In this day-and-age of GLOBALIZATION we shall see and witness the audacity of non-believers; namely, as western civilization (as we know it) is subsequently surpassed and left behind by the re-emergence of eastern ethos of civilization.

The Chinese are already reading Confucious and the Analects! The Hindus their Baghwat Gita!

Talk about future global Secularism compared to hitherto monolithic norms of Christianity and its influence (since Roman Empire!).

In my view, mankind has a greater and more compassionate future under global secular ethos
without brandishing this or that form of governance.

Prof. Dawkins writes that "Atheists ... tend to define good and bad deeds in terms of the welfare and suffering of others". That is ... to put it mildly ... an ambit claim for which he offers absolutely no evidence.

A more credible version of that claim may be to say that "most Atheists Richard Dawkins interacts with define ... etc ..." ... though even this presumes that Prof. Dawkins has a full understanding of what the Atheists he interacts with trully believe.

The real distinction appears to be that Atheists define good and bad by their own reasoning, rather than by reference to a supposed "authoritative source" (i.e. a religious text). Whether or not that happens to align with (in Prof. Dawkin's words) "...welfare and suffering of others" is a decision each Atheists reserves the right to make by him/herself.

We can certainly HOPE that they define it in the way we would like ... i.e. favoring the welfare of others ... but that is just a hope, and it is disingenous of Prof. Dawkins to claim otherwise.

i couldnt read all the posts-

im religious

i dont agree at all with all of the religious poster here

i dont agree with all of the atheist posters here

i look at the intentions of the person writing

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But many religions arrogate...

...their violence, their ignorant bigotry, their hatred of education, their cruelty, seem to me to be as close to pure evil as anything I can imagine.

But they were religious, and that provided all the justification they needed to murder and destroy.

that it was Allah’s will that they blow up buses and subways –

It is easy for religious faith, even if it is irrational in itself, to lead a sane and decent person, by rational, logical steps, to do terrible things...?

There is a logical path from religious faith to evil deeds...?

But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”...?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

well, thank god mr dawkins is not religious-

if he actually believes what he is writing he is a scary kind of a guy no matter how you look at it

i truly wonder what his idea of logic is

this is just ugly stuff

not very erudite, am i.

Once more, for the retarded kids at the back of the class, atheism is no more a religion than my lack of cash makes me a rich man.

Is there a name for us folk who don't care one way or another of there's a goD? Ain't no reason i should do what people who claim to speak directly to him/her/it say he wants me to do.

And, while you may have noticed that "god" spelled backwards is "dog", did you realise that "bob" spelled backwards is still "bob"? The significance of this may be lost on the enunlightened.

Subliminal message:
Kill Ron Paul Kill Ron Paul Kill Ron Paul Kill Ron Paul Kill Ron Paul Kill Ron Paul Kill Ron Paul Kill Ron fnord Paul Kill Ron Paul Kill Ron Paul Kill Ron Paul

Religion is for cowards.

It's the ultimate excuse to avoid taking responsibility for your own acts and blame it on a higher authority.

With an institutionalised system where ultimate punishment is only after you die, where you can be forgiven by private confessions and where you can be relieved from the sin of greed by contributing a fraction of your wealth to regious organisations or just feel "good" by showing up at church every sunday.

All organisations, religious or not, which avoid people to take up responsibility for their own individual actions have a high chance of corrupting the overall behavior of the group.

Whether it were the Nazi's (although the SS had "God Mitt Uns" on their belts), ordinary Germans, soldiers under Stalin, militant muslim suicide bombers or the Christian crusaders they all avoided the confrontation of their own acts with basic human ethics and moral values (which we all know exist).

Although Hitler, nor Stalin personally did kill (any/many) people, they managed to give a whole organisation an excuse to follow their own agenda. De-responsibilisation is very strong in driving people into doing things which they know are not "good" and cause suffering. 80% of the Jews during WW2 were denounced by ordinary (mainly christian) Germans, not by SS militants. The fact that the Christian church actually supported Hitler till the end (including shipping SS' to Latin America) will also have re-assured that there would be no punishment even in the afterlife.

Yes, religion is no guarantee for bad behavior as atheism is no guarantee for good behavior. The biggest difference is that all authority structures based on human idols (Stalin/Hitler) will ultimately end with the dissapearance of the human idol and as such also the distorted values and the excuse for the individual not to be confronted with their behavior (Befehl is Befehl is pretty hard if the commander in chief is a fairy tale figure).

With religion, it's pretty difficult to end tthe leadership of something which really does not exist.

Let's not fool ourself, it's not religion in se which causes people to do bad things. It's the whole organsition beneath the almighty who gives the orders; the mullahs, the priests, the bishops... defending their own reasons of existence. Like a typical capitalistic organisation, they just try to kill the competition with all tools possible. Whether it's financial bribing (we'll sponsor your development project if we can baptise your children, otherwise your children can die and it will be your fault) or straight suicide attacks is only a matter of executional form.

Religion is for cowards

CW

I think the record is pretty clear that both religious and non-religious people have done some pretty heinous acts over the years, justifying them in a variety of ways.

I believe that communities commonly act out of fear of others. People want to take care of those they care for-family, friends, neighbors. Based on their local cares and fears they can act collectively to persecute others and perpetrate evil acts. Good people who are theists and secularists can act this way, glossing over their acts with their own self justification.

Pointing to religion alone as the cause of "good" people doing bad things is a cop out to avoid addressing difficult issues fundamental to human nature responding to the stresses of a complex world.

And by the way--isn't the concept of a "good" person oversimplification anyway--every person I've encountered is a complex mixture of good and evil, insight and cluelessness, strength and weakness, joy and dispair.

I'm just going to examine one of Richard Dawkins' statements:
"For non-religious people, the behavior of consenting adults in a private bedroom is the business of nobody else, and is not bad unless it causes suffering – for example by breaking up a happy family. But many religions arrogate to themselves the right to decide that certain kinds of sexual behavior, even if they do no harm to anyone, are wrong."

In historical actuality, attitudes toward sexual privacy, especially sexual minorities, tend to divide along authoritarian/libertarian rather than religious/atheist lines. Authoritarian atheistic Communist regimes in Russia, Cuba, China, East Germany, and North Korea have regarded homosexuality as someething to be reviled, prevented and punished. Lenin regarded the notion of sexual emancipation as a symptom of bourgeois degeneracy, showing a lack of solidarity with the proletariat. Other Communists felt that same sex activity was a sign of moral weakness and a threat to the social and political health of the nation, associated with luxury, leisure and the upper classes. "Re-education" programs for homosexuals have included hard labor, psychotropic drugs and imprisonment in psychiatric hospitals.

Atheism per se didn't cause this attitude toward sexual emancipation--authoritarianism did. Religion per se doesn't cause narrow attitudes toward consenting, non-harmful sex between adults in private--authoritarianism does. Authoritarian atheists and authoritarian religious people have a great deal in common; atheism does not prevent attacks mounted against harmless sexual behavior.

It's not "devastatingly true", nor true in any other sense, that "for good people to do evil things, it takes religion." What a shame this piece ends with such a gross misstatement. There are a great many cases where good people (or at least people who thought they were good) did evil things over and over. Often it's not religion but ideology that drives them. Just as frequently it's humans' simple ability to dehumanize others, be they opponents or just people who look different. Humans also have enormous capacity for rationalizing their own opinions or actions that are rooted in self-interest, animosity or fear. Religion is one tool employed in such rationalization, but societies would certainly find other ways to rationalize without religion. One more thing: not all religions are the same. Some emphasize peace way more than others. Let's not tar all religion with the failings of some (or to be precise, the failings of the more radical wings of some).

Once the majority of us realize that Nature IS the transcendental deity to which we are all beholden we will no longer need to evoke a super-natural one. Folks will be able to THINK about the reality of our situation rather than believe in superstitions, (modern and ancient, referred to as "faith").
Educating the people about our real position in this Universe will awaken them to the facts. Then we can consciously choose: do we want to live on Earth as it IS in the Heavens?... or do we want to create Hell on Earth? This decision that will be made by a majority of us will determine the fate of the biosphere within a few generations or less.

Once the majority of us realize that Nature IS the transcendental deity to which we are all beholden we will no longer need to evoke a super-natural one. Educating the people about our real position in this Universe will awaken them to the facts. Then we can consciously choose: do we want to live on Earth as it IS in the Heavens?... or do we want to create Hell on Earth? This decision that will be made by a majority of us will determine the fate of the biosphere within a few generations or less.

oh jesus professor dawkins how right you are "religion poisons everything it touches"! its a total scam run mostly by homophobic moneygrabbing men! its a total hokus-pokus game! a farce!!

Nan - if you're still here, what do you think of this as an example of fanaticism aimed at an atheist:

"Professor Dawkins is a moral cretin. He does not have a clue about the moral imperatives of people who believe in God. They believe that their actions in this life are subject to judgement by a transcendent standard. To an athiest all is pemitted subject only to ones tastes."

I have added two new quotes to my quotes file from this good piece. They'll go next to another of my most favorite quotes:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen Roberts

This commentary is very close to my own experiences with religion. I grew up in an era of conservative Catholic religion; college theology taught me that should a man leave the priesthood he was not worthy of even a greeting; people of other religions may get to heaven in spite of their religion and not because of it. These were just two of the tenets that were taught at my Catholic college.

The real evils done in the name of religion were often ignored in history classes and the violence done in the name of Christianity was never recognized. The Taliban has centuries to go and millions of inhuman acts to equal Christianity.

The whole discussion here is about whether God exists, and whether or not we'd be better off without religion. Of course, live and let live- to each his or her own is the correct answer to any questions about religion, but everybody would have agreed to that at the start. However, if you do try to debate further, as we're doing here, and all you do is happen to argue one particular side of the argument (guess which), it seems you automatically get labeled a fanatic...

And Vote Ron Paul, I'm sure this will just encourage you - but give it a rest - nobody is impressed with your juvenile keyboard stuttering.

Steven Weinberg may be an excellent physicist, but that quote of his featured in the article is sophomoric and unoriginal. I for one could care less
if "evil doers" are themselves generally "good" or "bad" people, if their evil doings are directed towards me. They'll get the same reaction from me either way. And their belief in gods and gnomes, or lack thereof, doesn't even factor. Atheism is a religion, and just as worthy of the name as Islam or Buddhism.

By the way, Mr. Mark, how respectful is "Residents of Fantasy Land" Insulting all people of faith is acceptable to you?

TO Mr. Mark,

Mr. is polite. It is a term of respect. And, it is preferable to the nasty words often used by many.

Is Dr. vs. Mr. the best you can respond with? Please try and respond to the substance of the arguments.

Perfect! This is a great read I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Dr. Dawkins,

I think one simple fact has been forgotten or pushed from our minds: We're just another animal walking the face of this big blue marble. Religions are merely for crowd control and political projection.

Luther

Bill

Atheism is Dogma. Religion is Dogma. Find the Truth. The truth is Ron Paul

The Revolution is here. Come be my light. Hope is near!! Vote Ron Paul Vote Ron Paul Vote Ron Paul Vote Ron Paul

Khaled Khondker,

Atheism has absolutely nothing to do with capitalist democracy, imperialism, communism, free market and nationalism. The only "ism" it has any relation to is skepticism.

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It is all about Ron Paul. Atheist/Theist/Deist/Agnostic/Thor/FSM/Mithra/Mayan/Zeus/Communism/Mao/Hitler/Anarchy/Religious Right/Hillarism/Scientism/Environmentalism/ism-ism/nationalism/gayism/pacifism/hedonism/satanism/Mormonism/Wiccan/Astrology/Elitism/socialism/Capitalism/Scholarship/Save Darfur/Tibet/Buddahism/Hinduism/Pantheism/Pixie/Narcissim

Everybody worships something.

End the end, vote RON PAUL

ron paul guy

CUT THE CRAP

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James Currin
in an illustration of the troglyditic ignorance from which American religionists approach questions of moral behavior, writes: "To an athiest all is pemitted subject only to ones tastes."

I am an Atheist. I am also a Buddhist. I believe I should behave with loving kindness towards my fellows (though I admit James, you make it hard).

Not because i will go to hell if i don't but because it is the right thing to do, and my innate moral sense, which we are all endowed with, tells me it is the right thing to do.

Mr. Currin, you might want to read a non-religious (not ANTI religious) book about moral development. Moral Minds by Marc Hauser is a good one.

Vote Ron Paul Vote Ron Paul Vote Ron Paul Vote Ron Paul

Professor Dawkins is a moral cretin. He does not have a clue about the moral imperatives of people who believe in God. They believe that their actions in this life are subject to judgement by a transcendent standard. To an athiest all is pemitted subject only to ones tastes.

WM,
A hearty applause for such an insightful post!

Nan: "Abundant examples of their comments are right here on this website, E Favorite -- there is no need for me to reproduce them on this page."

Of course, you have no obligation to do what I asked, but it seems as though you feel repeating your opinion that there are many examples of fanaticism here, IS doing what I asked.

I do appreciate the one concrete example you gave - it helps me understand your perception of fanaticism.

Hi, WM - nice to see you here too. Come back when you can and go to the Harris thread on this subject to see some other posters from the past.

Though I'm an atheist (in the sense of finding it highly unlikely that anyone's favorite deity actually exists), I can sympathize with the concerns of some of the believers who are posting here - that not believing in a God could lead to anti-social ("evil") behavior. When I was expecting my daughter, I was concerned enough about her having healthy moral guidance that I actually dragged my atheist husband to a UU-like to church to scope it out. My sweetie humored his less-rational-than-usual pregnant wife and on the way home, after yawning through the service, pointed out what should have been obvious to me - that all of the atheists that we knew were decent people who didn’t need to convince themselves that a deity was watching them to behave well towards other people.

I can certainly imagine that some “evil” people would think twice about their behavior if they believed that they would be punished for it by an omnipotent, omniscient deity. But I think it more likely that people who are religious and mentally unhinged (as these “evil” people are) would find some bizarre justification for their behavior in whatever holy scripture they profess to follow. For a recent example, look at the “Christian” rantings of the Virginia Tech gunman.

The real question, to me, is not: what can we coerce people into believing that will keep them from acting in anti-social manners? It is: how do people actually end up committing “evil” acts? The reading I’ve been doing recently on childhood development suggests a likely answer. Children who are well-attached to their caregivers from early in their infancy, whose role models treat them and other people non-violently and with kindness, whose feelings, desires, and problems are responded to with attention and compassion, learn to be empathetic and compassionate towards other people – they don’t become cold-blooded killers.

Ironically, certain religious upbringings seem to be directly at odds with creating mentally healthy, empathetic human beings. Religious dogma which includes the idea that children are bad and sinful and need to be manipulated/beaten into fear of god/parents/teachers/other authorities can cause parents to behave in harsh, violent, coercive ways to their children, which models to their children how to behave harshly, violently, and coercively towards others. It can also really mess with their heads – “my parents say they love me but they are deliberately cruel to me” can be a crazy-making message to a child. An interesting book that explores the childhoods of “evil”-doers such as Hitler is “For Your Own Good,” by Alice Miller – well worth a read. It delves into the pedagogical, Protestant childrearing practices which were common in Germany in the early 20th century (and unfortunately are still popular in some religious groups in the U.S.) and explores how they may have contributed to citizenry intent on obedience to authority and lacking in compassion towards others.

Of one thing I am certain: I would much rather live in a world populated by the compassionate than in one populated by the dogmatic (whether the dogma is in matters of religion, political philosophy, etc). Unfortunately, the two seem to be rather incompatible.

E. Favorite – it’s nice to see that you are still engaged in these dialogues! Unfortunately, life is just not allowing me much time for such conversations these days. I’m glad that you and others are continuing to explore these subjects with such reason and civility!

Mary

I'm not sure I would say that it was Bush/Cheney's religion that led logically to use torture

in the way that Mohammed Atta's Islam LED him to fly that plane into the WTC.

In the same way, I am not sure that it is Harris's lack of belief in God that leads him to endorse torture (Dershowitz is a Jew and a religious man).

A secular humanist has as one of her basic principles not inflicting suffering (a buddhist principle). additionally this principle of the Council for Sec Humanism:
We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.

talks about Human Rights. Including things like the Geneva Convention that prohibit toruture.

Abundant examples of their comments are right here on this website, E Favorite -- there is no need for me to reproduce them on this page. Just click on "All On Faith Panelists" above and read the remarks on Susan Jacoby's page or Sam Harris' page (a link to one of Christopher Hitchens' essays is further down at the bottom of the page). It's scarcely possible for them to state their views in any more offensive and uncompromising language; my description of their comments as bitter, hostile and venomous may be an understatement.

As I said before, an ideology so extreme that it makes a person hateful toward others is my definition of fanaticism.

I think Dawkins is asking, what came first, the insanity or the religion?

I believe that many religious people should be under the care of a phychiatrist. But I do not believe that religion is what made them crazy; I believe that many crazy people end up crazy over religion.

Many people here like to cite Stalin or Hitler as examples of the bankruptcy of atheistic thinking. But that is not exactly right; the followers of Hitler and Stalin are pretty much indistinguishable from religious fundamentalists, who seek mental conformity to doctrine, as an easy, even lazy way, to deal with the frightening complications of the world.

E Favorite replied, "I am definitely not signing up for this course."

I don't blame you for thinking that way. It is a logical position to take after a 6,000-year-old test (begun with the Fall). But if a Progressed Being had reasons to administer such a test, and knew of the growth experiences made possible by its being carried out (despite many horridly painful consequences along the way), would it not be remotely possible within a universe that we know so very little about that such a Teacher could see reasons to go ahead with it?

By the way, you did sign up. We all did, excitedly and wonderingly. (I know it sounds illogical, but teachers give what appear to be illogical tests all the time--and I don't need a psychiatrist.)

The problem i have here (apart from 1 in 3 of all comments being of the "ah, what about Stalin" variety) is that good, evil and morality are all religious concepts.
Yes, from the perspective of the gene, or the species, a single individual has little worth. From the perspective of that individual's close relatives and social group, s/he is very valuable.
Could the point not be, "which beliefs, or opinions, or models of the universe seem most useful to whatever our goals (as individuals, societies, species) may be"?
"Good" or "evil" can't be quantified, "usefulness towards a specific goal" can be. Perhaps it would lead to less pointless bickering, too. We're all frail, fallable creatures, with complex psychologies, it's so easy to get stuck in one "reality tunnel" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_tunnel), never realising that we're basing our entire opinion of the world on one biased, restricted viewpoint.

And you religious types need to be reassured that us secularists (a) are not all atheist by default, many believers desire that religious belief remain a private matter, and (b) not out to stop you believing in any darn thing that seems to help you make sense of this wacky universe, we just dont think you should have the right to pester us about it.
And, to borrow again from Robert Anton Wilson, "The Cosmic Schmuck law holds that [1] the more often you suspect you may be thinking or acting like a Cosmic Schmuck, the less of a Cosmic Schmuck you will become, year by year, and [2] if you never suspect you might think or act like a Cosmic Schmuck, you will remain a Cosmic Schmuck for life."

NAN – Thanks for the Richard Dawkins example. The Jacoby reference was not an example, but your overall opinion of her writings.

DAWKINS ON THE ROPES: “[Dawkins] has much authority as a pharmacist…to speak about the supernatural. Let the real scientist and theologist debate the supernatural.”

I’m not a scientist or a pharmacist or a theologian and I feel no need to be an expert to debate the supernatural with anyone, anymore than I think expertise is needed to debate Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or other invisible beings.

I know I keep repeating “invisible beings” – that’s because I think it’s important to remind people that ultimately that’s what God is. He’s been imbued with all sorts of meaning by humans - and provided with a long and imaginative list of activies, and given numerous different personalities over the centuries. Many have felt his presence (or sincerely thought it was God they felt), but no-one has seen him (and those who say they do receive a psychiatric evaluation).

Robert Wolfersteig:

Thank you for the web site reference. As someone who is attempting to integrate the essences of the various spiritual traditions and experiences with the radical new theories emerging through theoretical physics and consciousness psychology, I appreciate your interest in the relevance of physics to spiritual/consciousness philosophy.

Afghanvet:

I agree with you completely about Siddartha Guatama and Jesus Christ. In my opinion they were both “buddhas“.

If you want to have a fair comparison to religion to atheism, you have to correctly identify what atheism really is. Atheism stands for belief such as capitalist democracy, imperialism, communism, free market and nationalism. In addition, this whole discussion has come down to re-judging the atrocities that so few extremist have caused in the name of Islam. Let there be no that doubt what these men have done is the most heinous, immoral, un-Islamic acts one can think off.

If someone feels the need to condemn those acts, please go ahead. But it is significant stretch to argue that religion, or what Mr. Dawkins really means to say - Islam, provides justification for immoral acts.

All men need justification for their action especially their immoral act. From Stalins murder of millions of Russian; Mao’s Cultural Revolution; US bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, indiscriminant bombing of Vietnam, support of the Kamer Rouge, over throw countless governments, support of countless dictators; the Israeli of Lebanon, not to mention Hitler eradication of countless Gypsies and Jews. All of these are done and justified by atheist beliefs such as nationalism and capitalist democracy.

Is there any doubt these people of Russia, China, Japan, Vietnam, Cambodia, Lebanon and Germany were terrorized? Has someone forgotten the number of lives that were lost because of men who were trying to advance their believes and ideas as nationalism and capitalist democracy.

But the actions of these men do not nullify the value of nationalism and democracy. Their values and benefits stand on their own right.

Just like Islam. The Koran stands on its own, unchanged for the last 1400 years, ready to reveal itself to the open mind. Islam is between you and God. You don’t need any Imam, mullah or philosopher to tell you what it says.

While Hitler was democratically elected, no one would suggest that you learn about democracy and its merits from him, why one would want to learn about Islam from Osama bin Laden.

The author is very selective in his attacks on religion, and in his attempts to prove the "inncence' of atheism, as he is not aware of the atheists Lenin and Stalin and the atrocites they commited against their poeple and other peoples.
another selectivity: all of his bad examples are from Islam, as he does not know about the history of today's Judaism (atrocites against the Palestinians according the Book of Josua) and yeasterday's Christianity (Crusades, Inquisition...etc under a blinded papacy).
Well, he will claim that atheists do not commit their crimes as atheists (but as dictators or fascists...etc) but the same arguments can be advanced on behalf of religions.
Moerver, he seems to ignore any good motivations that come aout of religions. But if religions led to murder, they saved, and are saving, more lives.
So, I hope this oversimplifying approach to religion should be avoided on this serious website.
Mark

E Favorite, you can start by just looking at previous postings on Susan Jacoby's pages on this WP site, or Christopher Hitchens' essays here or on the Slate website. Their remarks reek of hostility, and they often use the "religion as a private matter" argument to push the concerns of believers out of the public sphere. I'm not assuming any intent that is not made abundantly clear by their own hyperbole and relentlessly aggressive language.

As for Dawkins, he is so keen to single out religious belief as inherently dangerous that he ties himself in knots. The behavior he condemns is fanatical according to my definition, not religious -- partisanship taken to an insane extreme. Tribalism, nationalism, any other ideology or allegiance gone overboard leads to similar behavior. Yet Dawkins asserts that "there is a logical path from religious faith to evil deeds," ignoring the fact that any belief can follow precisely the same path, causing a person to claim that their abuse of others is somehow good and that the end justifies the means. Perhaps I'm oversensitive, but to me his scorn and contempt for religious believers are palpable throughout his essay.

RELIGIOUS PEOPLE DON'T WORSHIP AN "ENTITY" PER SAY BUT THE RELIGION ITSELF. THEY ARE MORE CONCERNED WITH LOOKING REGLIGOUS AND BEHAVING RELIGIOUSLY ESPECIALLY BEFORE MEN. THEY ARE LESS CONCERNED WITH PLEASING THEIR SO CALLED "GOD" AS MUCH AS THEY ARE CONVINCING OTHER PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE WRONG IF THEY ARE NOT LIKE THEM. IN MY OPINION RELIGION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A "HIGHER POWER" OR "SUPREME BEING." IT IS A HUMAN INVENTION THAT RESULTS IN HUMAN BEHAVIOR IE: MASS MURDER, BIGOTRY, RACISM, ETC... SO IT IS INACCURATE TO SAY THAT THEIR IS A DIRECT LINK BETWEEN RELIGION AND EVIL DEEDS. IT IS FAIR TO SAY THAT THERE IS A DIRECT LINK TO HUMANS AND EVIL DEEDS.
JESUS DENOUNCED RELIGION BECAUSE HE NEW THAT IT SPAWNED FROM THE INHERENTLY EVIL HEART OF MAN AND ONLY BROUGHT DESTRUCTION. DOESN'T ANYONE REALIZE THAT JESUS AND RELIGION ARE NOT SYNONOMOUS?

If humanist are so charitable and giving, why do they continue to lack in giving. Religious people overwhelming give more than the non-religious (even excluding church giving). Why doesn't Dawkins and all of his fellow rationalist/humanist/secularist/freethinkers/Brites/atheist/etc put their money where their mouth is, instead of just preaching from his pulpit?

Robert Wolfersteig:

I believe you are completely right. I forgot who said it, but paraphrasing, there is physics and there is everything else in science. Dawkins is a biologist. He has as much authority as a pharmacist (no offense to the pharmacist out there, I am also one)to speak about the supernatural. Let the real scientist and theologist debate the supernatural.

Actually, 'good' people can do a lot of bad things without the intervention of religion. For instance, the HOLOCAUST was BAD, and generally perpetrated by 'good' people, ordinary people, who 'went along'. It was not religiously motivated, or even religiously justified.

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Main Page | About On Faith | By Religion | All On Faith Panelists | RSS Feed Richard Dawkins
British evolutionary biologist and author
Richard Dawkins has been the Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at the University of Oxford since 1995. The "On Faith" panelist did his D.Phil under the Nobel Prize-winning zoologist Niko Tinbergen. After two years as an Assistant Professor of Zoology at the University of California, Berkeley, he returned to Oxford in 1970 as Lecturer in Animal Behaviour and a Fellow of New College. The British evolutionary biologist is noted for his writings defending evolution. An atheist, his latest book is The God Delusion(2006). He is the author of eight other books: The Selfish Gene (1976), The Extended Phenotype (1982), The Blind Watchmaker (1986), River Out of Eden (1995), Climbing Mount Improbable (1996), Unweaving the Rainbow (1998), A Devil's Chaplain (2003), and The Ancestor's Tale (2004). A Festschrift volume, Richard Dawkins: how a scientist changed the way we think was published in 2006 by Oxford University Press. Dawkins, who holds eight honorary degrees in science and literature, has also presented BBC science documentaries, including Nice Guys Finish First, The Blind Watchmaker and Seven Wonders of the World. On Channel Four he presented Break the Science Barrier with Richard Dawkins and Root of All Evil?. In 1991 he gave the Royal Institution Christmas Lectures for Children on BBC under the general title Growing Up in the Universe. He is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature as well as a Fellow of the Royal Society. His medals and prizes include the Sillver Medal of the Zoological Society, the Michael Faraday Award of the Royal Society, the Nakayama Prize, the Cosmos International Prize, the Kistler Prize and the Shakespeare Prize. Close. Richard Dawkins
British evolutionary biologist and author
Richard Dawkins has been the Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at the University of Oxford since 1995. The "On Faith" panelist did his D.Phil under the Nobel Prize-winning zoologist Niko Tinbergen. After two years as an Assistant Professor of Zoology at the University of California, Berkeley, he returned to Oxford in 1970 as Lecturer in Animal Behaviour and a Fellow of New College. more »
Main Page | Richard Dawkins Archives | On Faith Archives

Logical Path from Religious Beliefs to Evil Deeds
Nobody is suggesting that all religious people are violent, intolerant, racist, bigoted, contemptuous of women and so on. It would be absurd to suggest such a thing: just as absurd as to generalize about all atheists. I am not even concerned with statistical generalizations about the majority of religious people (or atheists). My concern here is over whether there is any general reason why religion might be more or less likely to bias individuals towards all those unpleasant things in Christopher Hitchens’s list: to make them more likely to exhibit them than they would have been without religion. I think the answer is yes.
You say 'Religion changes, for people, the definition of good.' That's only true for the truly religious. Most people are not religious, just accepting of the culture they are in. You say 'Atheists and humanists tend to define good and bad deeds in terms of the welfare and suffering of others.' This may be true, but then it excludes most non-religious people. You say 'for non-religious people, the behavior of consenting adults in a private bedroom is the business of nobody else' but for a lot of non-religous people, homosexuality is not good.
It would seem that your argument hinges on how you define religion and religious people. I think that few people are 'religious' in the sense of the Taliban, and many of the non-religious do bad things.

So, is Mr. Dawkins proposing that "religion" is the common denominator of evil in the world? One simply needs to remember the communists of Russia, China, etc. who murdered more than 60 million people and who were fanatical atheist to see the fallacy of that thinking.

With that kind of all or nothing logic, I would condemn all scientist because a few nazi scientist experimented on human beings and did great evil during World War II.

Evil is in the heart of man, and each person must wrestle with his own sinful nature.

Question: Where is the peer-reviewed empirical evidence to support Weinberg's statement?: “With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”

And what makes it "devastatingly true?"

For a rebuttal to this arguement see
a-singularity.blogspot.com

Nan, Thanks for responding. You say: " It's their need to post bitter, hurtful, venomous remarks intended to denigrate religious believers, wound their feelings and marginalize their participation in society."

Please provide specific examples of "bitter, hurtful, venomous" remarks.

I won't ask you to show examples of intent, because I don't see how a writer's intent can be demonstrated, unless of course there are posts that actually say something like "I want believers to feel bad and diminsh their participation in society." If so, please point me to them. Seriously, I want to understand exactly what here you considered offensive. If you do, I promise I won't defend any of the remarks. I will just thank you for being specific.

Whether there is a God or not, or whether there is divine moral code or not, after you have passed those decisions, the central point of Christianity is how to live on earth, and how to regard your fellow man. Alot of Christians are lost, on this point, and fail.

In order to be a good Christian, Christians need to get off of this anti-atheistic crusade, which is totally and completely irrelevant to the pursuit of a Christian life. If a person does not believe in God, then let them be. A persistent but futile insistence on your point of view over all others merely indicates an inner turmoil and uncertainty, and undermines your claims of being Christian.

Many people who post here on the "side" of Christianity are not very dedicated Christians. It takes alot more than bashing atheists on a computer website to have any legitimacy to the claim: "Christian."

Non-Christians may be suprised to hear a Christian express such opinions, because many people assoicate "Christianity" with right-wing-born-again-Christian-evangelicals. They have very big and loud mouths and get all the press. But I am not one of them; I am just a "plain" Christian. As far as my faith and belief go, I have more in common with Mother Teresa than with them.

Belief in God makes the fact of our existence no less scary than it is for an atheist. I also have a tip for all the atheists: most religious fantatics have a great deal of doubt, which they work feverishly to suppress, instead of allowing themselves to experience. That is what makes them so testy. So, don't think too bad of them.

Doubt is part of faith; certainty is not faith.

This "debate" has swung from one dogma to another and that is because it seems that two basics have not been defined:

1) God DOES NOT EQUAL Religion

2) Define Religion

The existence of God is UNPROVABLE and, by definition of empirical research one cannot prove a negative and therefore, the non-existence of God is also UNPROVABLE. Consequently, the best we can hope for is to say "I Don't KNOW". For this reason, it can rightfully be said that ATHIEST are a religion as much as any other one out there. And, that just adds another one to the pile.

If you choose to have FAITH in a deity or a meatball is none of my business. But, once your organized religion or cult or political group begins to appeal to emotion to incite or justify a behavior I begin to have a problem.

It is NOT impossible to hold to a set of HUMAN DERIVED precepts that guide life without having to appeal to the authority of an unknown, unseen or unprovable entity. While Buddhism has MANY religious flavors, what Buddha taught was NOT religion, it was a philosophy of how to conduct a GOOD and MEANINGFUL life.

These precepts were derived from contemplation and introspection and observation. And, the basic tenets of Buddhism the philosophy are not "new age" religion as they were around for 1000s of years before ANY of the other Abrahamic or Monotheistic RELIGIONS came into being. Buddhism neither denies or suggests that their is a God, only that it is irrelevant to how one should behave in life to achieve peace, happiness and meaning.

I would say that an argument could be easily made that the foundations and FOUNDERS of modern Judeo-Christian religion AND philosophy may very well have gotten their ideas from a wandering Buddhist monk or lay person. Jesus' sermons, devinely inspired or not, have striking resemblence to sermons and sutras of a a 1000 years before his time. The only difference was he added God as moral authority behind his precepts as opposed to simple observation and rational thought.

Buddha would never think of denying someone their personal faith, he would only ask that person if their actions on behalf of said faith were aligned with the very basic precepts of the philosophy he derived from observation, introspection and contemplation. If you said Buddha was devinely inspired, he would say, "Perhaps, but how does that change the value of what I say?"

4 Noble Truths and 8-Fold Noble Path need no devine backing to be more truthful, rational, logical or more useful in guiding one's actions and life and they ask for, and indeed, do not want organized speculation on what a God/god/x really means by these enlightened discoveries.

Praying cannot hurt, but praying alone can be hurtful. Organizing to the exclusion of others based on anything dismisses the reality that we are all connected. BELIEF in a TYPE of God may provide hope, but hope is NOT a planning tool and by definition it is a form of craving and a "want" and it is craving in all its forms that is one of the roots of all suffering.

religion gives rise to passion. passion often leads people to do "bad" things.

examples of "passionate" atheists who do "bad" things:

militant environmentalists
secular arab terrorists
secular israeli terrorists
communists (label Mao and Stalin as "evil" people who are the exception if you wish, but they certainly didn't murder millions of people on their own)
fascists (ditto Mussolini)

dawkins reasoning is, at best, sloppy science. an oxford scholar should know the principles of cause and effect...

and citing 9/11 and 7/7 as proof that religion makes people do bad things completely ignores 19th and 20th century geopolitics, specifically the relationship between the western world and the middle east. again, poor reasoning, sloppy science.

Atheist keep repeating the Stalin studied in the seminary. So did Darwin. So what is your point?

It's their need to post bitter, hurtful, venomous remarks intended to denigrate religious believers, wound their feelings and marginalize their participation in society. Obviously, if you categorize all believers as illogical and dangerous, you are dismissing all evidence to the contrary and going off the deep end. That's fanaticism.

Re: Humanists like Dershowitz (and Harris) advocacy of torture

Well, 'enry, Mr Dawkin's thesis is that only religion causes good men to do bad things. Now, assuming atheists/humanists like Harris and Dershowitz would actually *do* torture--not hire some poor, ignorant underling and then blame it on her--and that torture is a bad thing, doesn't that negate the contention?

GWB, I'm afraid, was the monkey not the organ grinder. (The evil behind the throne was Mr Cheney, of whose religious convictions I have no knowledge.) The only 'good' thing in this whole sorry episode of an unnecessary war was Mr Bush's lecture--read in full view of the camera--by the late Pope over the unjust nature of the Iraq war. Read somewhere that Cardinal Ratzinger (as he was then)actually wrote that speech.

Would have loved to have been a fly at that meeting...Blair's too.

Nan: "If it causes you to lose all perspective and harm others, it's fanaticism. And Prof. Dawkins, you display more than a little of this tendency yourself (as do many of those here who are defending you)."

That's a stong statement. Please back it up with some examples. I'm eager to see what you consider signs of fanaticism in Dawkins or others writing here.

Thanks

While I agree with Dr. Dawkins that the actions, speech and thoughts of humans toward others should be to avoid causing suffering, I disagree that it is only religion that makes a good person do evil things. He agrees with Steven Weinberg when he says “With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”
If one replaces the last word with the following I would agree: “With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes GREED.” Greed for selfish gratification (whether a personal self or an organizational self) causes most of the suffering (read sin or evil) in the world.

It is my opinion that our individual “belief” that we are a separate entity or separate consciousness from other people as well as other creatures is an illusion, and, therefore, our cultural emphasis on individualistic, egocentric lifestyles and economic selfish greed will never lead us to collective enlightenment. Only when we realize that we are not only part of the whole of the creative process unfolding in manifested reality but also intimately, symbiotically and interdependently existing with the unmanifested implicate orders of reality (SEE Einstein’s absolute space-time, David Bohm’s implicate order, Stephen Hawking’s time has no boundary proposal) will we create a human culture that welcomes non-greedy, altruistic acts as the expected behavior.

Please look at the work produced by Dr. Susan Blackmore, the British neuro-psychologist who basically states that the brain creates an illusory self. As a memetic theorist, along with Dr. Dawkins, Dr. Blackmore theorizes that through memetic evolution and biological protection, a selfplex is created which thinks it is conscious and has free will but this is illusory. Does this mean that there are no individual selves in the universe but only false belief in separateness?
See:
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk

By de-emphasizing our selfish nature through enlightened education and cooperative economic interaction, humankind will be in a position to “self evolve” our collective consciousness. The constant recurrence of situations like immoral, greedy wars or the immoral, greedy humanitarian abuses such as the situation in Darfur, will be greatly lessened when humans see each other not as separate entities to abuse or victimize, but, instead, as part of themselves and part of all things.
Not only do humans misinterpret their nature as physical and conscious beings, but we also misinterpret the nature of our true reality.

Individuals and groups (religious or not) can and will be greedy and, therefore, cause suffering toward others (both individuals and groups). It is the greed for profit, property, and self perpetuation that causes “evil”.

Oh Dawkins, what nonsense! For every Bin Laden, there are countless Muslims who are motivated by their religion to give alms, help others and live decent lives. I lived in Egypt for ten years, surrounded by people inspired by their religion to do good.

It's not faith that causes people to be violent and cruel, it's FANATICISM -- taking one's devotion to an excessive, irrational extreme and acting without regard for the interests of others. It doesn't matter what you're devoted to : religion, political ideology, material greed, or a given football team. If it causes you to lose all perspective and harm others, it's fanaticism. And Prof. Dawkins, you display more than a little of this tendency yourself (as do many of those here who are defending you).

I assume the names of the greatest mass murders of the last century escape you. The names of Popes and Priests were not among them, but the names of several avowed atheists were - Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot. While one is perhaps more appalled by evil done under the guise of religious beliefs for the shocking hypocrisy, it is the death of religious beliefs that seems to have unleashed the greatest of evils, from the rise of dictators no longer operating under even the patina of any moral constraint to the slow destruction of our social fabric.

Indeed, the "rationality" that you allege to be domain of the aethist is not what remains after religious beliefs are winnowed, rather it is a replacement of religious values. It is a set of values in which it seems there is no greater good for which to strive then personal pleasure and satisfaction. Christian values produce the likes of Mother Theresa and others, driven by their religious beliefs to give greatly of themselves to benefit others of all - or no - religious beliefs. Perhaps you will show me how many of her ilk have been produced by "rational" values. While many a rationalist champions the "victims" of society, that is usually as a means of gaining political power rather then taking any action that would discomfit the rationalist personally.

You point to the Islamic religion as proof of the inherent path to evil that religion provides, making no distinction between Wahhabi Islam and any other form of religion. That is intellectually dishonest, to put it mildly. I would be equally intellectually dishonest to deny that religion, unfortunately, does hold the potential for evil when manipulated by the hands of people who seek power and ascendency in this world we inhabit. But religion also holds something rationality, in the end, does not. And that is the potential to serve as the basis of a functioning and stable society based on alturistic motives.

Your version of "rationality" is more permissive then traditional religion. You cite sexual freedom. Secular rationalism does allow for sexual freedom - which I happen to believe is a good thing. I cannot condone being placed in prison or socially ostricized for cunnilingus or most other sexual practices between consenting adults acting in privacy. But that is one aspect of religion that needs to be changed from within. It is largely the creation of Augustine of Hippo, not of the Bible or the Koran. The sexual repression of Augustine is not proof that God does not exist, nor that rationalism on the whole is better for society then religion.

While the existence of a God cannot be proven, you must admit also that by the same token it cannot be disproven. What you do is to claim otherwise, as is your right, and then to claim that your version of "rationality" is superior as a set of values because it has, supposedly, less chance of leading to evil.

I believe that is wrong in the extreme. Your version of rationality which has become ascendent in the past century has hardly led to more stable society. We have lost a sense of community, of shared values, and concern for the welfare of others in our community that was and is the greatest benefit of religious beliefs. The self centered rationality that has replaced those beliefs is not an improvement. Indeed, my experience has been that secular rationalists tend to operate outside the realm of reality and have little if any desire to sacrifice for the greater good. They advocate permissiveness in all walks of life. And when there are no more rules, no code of morality to guide us beyond our own personal pleasure, then the logical end of that path is anarchy.

I'm not sure that I can entirely accept Steven Weinberg's assertion that "for good people to do evil things, it takes religion." In the sense that the religious person takes a world view that may not be consistent with objective reality or with what we would call "the good", he is an idealogue. But so too are those who see the world through the narrow prism of an overriding political, economic, or social idealogy; and they too are capable of the most reprehensible actions in the name of the "cause" or the "greater good".

Over 600 posts so far... here is a pennyworth more.

Mr Dawkins' reasoning sounds more like Yoda than any great philosopher. He asserts: "There is a logical path from religious faith to evil deeds. There is no logical path from atheism to evil deeds."
What about atheist civil planners who decide that some hurt and suffering is necessary for the greater good of millions more in the desired utopian society? It's no more or less realistic than Mr Dawkins' suggestions. If one wants an example, I would cite the old aphorism that "you have to break an egg to make an omelett," formerly used by apologists even in this country to justify the millions of murders and other suffering perpetrated by Communism in its earlier days.
It may be questioned why Mr Dawkins' Nobel prize winning physicist should also be an authority in ethics and philosophy. His physicist's claim that "for good people to do evil things, it takes religion” is incomplete. It can also be achieved by atheists using utilitarian reasoning to achieve what they think is the greatest good.

Ever hear of a guy called Stalin? Not too big on God, but he and his legions of followers did lots of nasty things. Mao? Pol Pot? Both also inspired their followers to commit horrible, horrible crimes.

Ever hear of a guy called Stalin? Not too big on God, but he and his legions of followers did lots of nasty things. Mao? Pol Pot? Both also inspired their followers to commit horrible, horrible crimes.

Ever hear of a guy called Stalin? Not too big on God, but he and his legions of followers did lots of nasty things? Mao? Pol Pot? Both also inspired their followers to commit horrible, horrible crimes.

E Favorite,
Good, sound logic. The Teacher was in the room, but left immediately as the test began. The consultation (where the usual answer is "You'll do fine if you look in the last half of the book") is telepathic, only on the right frequency, and there are many competing frequencies (part of the test). And no, it is not pass/fail and I suspect you and most atheists I read from here are doing pretty well in the basics. It is a multi-level, multi-dimensional test, by the way. It is also multiple choice. A difficult test? very.

Idealist: “The Teacher has stepped out of the room, and has administered an open book test, with private consultation available by appointment. Just because you can't see the Teacher, and don't understand the test, does not mean either the Teacher or the test don't exist.”

For the teacher to step out of the room, he/she must have been in the room, at one point, right? A real, live flesh and blood teacher. And the private consultations are in the teacher’s office, with the teacher present, right? If not, I am definitely not signing up for this course. I also wonder if this invisible teacher insists that I worship and obey him or he’ll flunk me, regardless of how well I know the material.

ANONYMOUS (aka Demos?) – Wow, “this guy” really got to you, didn’t he? Tell me, how do you know that characterization of the conference is not accurate? Were you there, too? Looking back at the original post I realize it could also apply to many other conferences, where well known people meet and mingle with people with similar interests. Do you think all of those are religious too?

Nathan P: who am i gonna believe? You, or my own eyes?

you write "Like it or not, the logic of this is utterly inescapable. Without a transcendent anchor for moral values, morality becomes completely arbitrary."

sorry nathan, there is overwhelming evidence that
Atheists are at least as moral as God-believers
and
Godless societies are much healthier and at least as moral as societies where people believe in God overwhelmingly (like the Good old US of A).

Read up on it. if you want some references, let me know.

Abandon your outdated mythologies.

"There is no logical path from atheism to evil deeds." With all due respect sir, you must be smoking crack.

If there is no God, then by what standard can you determine whether something is good or bad?

Society?
Which society? Nazi Germany or England in 2007?
The individual?
Which individual? You? Me? Hitler? Billy Graham? Genghis Kahn? Mother Teresa?

If there is no God, then we have no transcendent anchor to even be able to adjudicate between good or bad. As one Christian writer puts it:

If there is no transcendent God there is no objective (unchanging) standard for how we can judge between moral options.
If there is no objective standard for how we judge between moral options, there is no objective evil.
If there is no objective evil, there is no objective good.

Are you willing to accept that there is no objective difference between good and evil? Obviously not, since you blame religious people for being "evil."

Like it or not, the logic of this is utterly inescapable. Without a transcendent anchor for moral values, morality becomes completely arbitrary.

Glad we've got this one all cleared up now.

Mary
wasn't the torture approved by our Christian president who regularly consults his Higher Father on matters of War and Peace.

PS..Must note as a Christian, I am firmly of the prone-to-sin view of humanity. And I believe we have a terrible tendency to lapse. Just look at how quickly the US reverted to torture and establishing concentration camps in the wake of the Twin Towers attack.

And I never thought I'd see someone like Alan Dershowitz--dear 'enry's colleague at 'arvard--becoming an advocate of torture. From an opponent of the death penalty to a proponent of torture without the slightest twinge of humanist guilt!

Our Calvinist roots have helped to justify the genocide of Native Americans, slavery, exploitation of other nations, and wars of aggression, while only the occasional triumphs of Secular thought have led us to recognize and sometimes attempt to correct, these massive, ethical failures.

If you consider the atrocities of Hilter and Stalin proof of the murderous nature of atheist, please explain the deaths of 20-30 million Native Americans in north and south America, who were wiped out in the name of bringing them christian salvation.

Be sure to count the 800,000 we have killed in Iraq for GWBs Crusade.

6,000,000 African Christians and Animist killed in Africa in the last 20 years to bring them the benifits of Islam.

The entire history of the Abrahamic religions is one of bloodshed in the name of this supposedly loving sumerian god.

History of Abrahamic Religion101.

A/Ibrahim(not his name yet) was a priest of the Sumerian deity EL. His tribe was small and had maintained a separate culture from many of the other followers of the Sumerian Trinity of Gods, so as a tribal leader, he declared a revel elation from El(as in Israel -chosen of God, and Daniel - beloved of God) that the tribe could take no other God before HIM, El, and by the way, never say or write MY NAME again, except in a code understood only by the priesthood, so we can forget about that whole EL/Triumvirate thing. Abraham was a capable leader and warlord, and his tribe prospered. The priesthood he founded included much of the Sumerian religions myths of creation and the flood into their repertoire and maintained their 'secret' knowledge of the Sumerian calendar and astrological systems to keep themselves in position of power. They taught their tribe cultural racism and apartheid, but allowed enslaved and captured women to bare legitimate children, to avoid the inbreeding that even prehistoric humans knew, led to birth defects. So….slavery was ok, but not of your close neighbors, because that might defeat the purpose – diversity of the gene pool.

This tribe maintained its genetic and cultural uniqueness very successfully. The shared religion allowed leaders to exhort them to martial ferocity, when wronged, or to take some other tribes property and land. Remember the time they were supposed to kill every living thing in Canaan and make the land theirs? It took uncommon will, devotion, and brutality for such a small tribe to conquer a larger more technologically advanced civilization such as the Canaanites. This cultural bigotry served them well for over a thousand years. It also made them a universally hated tribe.

So, after they have been defeated and displaced several times, and finally completely conquered by the Romans, a group of radical Jewish rabbis, Zoroastrian priest, and Roman Freethinkers, used the local stories about a Jewish Rabbi/carpenter, embellished them borrowing heavily from the messianic traditions of Judaism which were stolen from the Sumerian religion, created the Christ myth. It took them quite a while, and they didn't get around to recording all of this until decades after the events supposedly had taken place. But…it is much easier to make up events after the fact, when the people who were there/then aren't around to dispute the 'facts.'

A few hundred years after that, a learned merchant that lives a life of leisure due to marrying a much older but wealthy widow, studies the Jewish religion, and realizes its real problem is its exclusivity. So he copies large parts of it, and creates a religion that invites everyone to join. In fact it often insists. He keeps the most holy spot in his homeland though, and discourages translations from the Arabic, so his tribe maintains Top Dog First of the First status. The End of Time myth involves a leader, or Great Caliph, that can really only come from his tribe. So, in typical tribal fashion, members of the other powerful and rival tribe in the region, the Persians, claim the Arabic descendants have gotten it wrong, and they are the true carriers of the flame.

So, Christians begin loosing ground to Islam and begin the Crusades and the Inquisition. Islam gets pissed and begins taking parts of Europe in order give the Infidels a chance to convert. That only gets so far as the Shia/Sunni/Persian/Arabic infighting keep them too occupied with each other to maintain their triumphs over the Christians.

It ain't over yet folks.

Men create religions to consolidate tribal power and control other tribes of men.

Every war in Europe and the mideast for the last 2000 years has had a religious component, or at least religion was a prime motivator for humans to
Our current administration is guilty of war crimes of the type, if not scale of the Third Reich, because of the widespread hatred and lack of respect for Islam, and dark skinned humans, he’ll never swing for his crimes.

Atheist have never claimed that humans aren't capable of animal behavior. What we abhor is the hypocracy of war, death torture and genocide in the name of some higher good.

Humans can learn to 'just say no' to evil men. Note the progress made in the secular west where at least a large percentage speak up against evil acts of their leaders. But, when a religion convinces them that these evil men are tools of their creator, they almost never say NO, but instead, pass the amunition.

Mary
Your mind can seemingly only entertain two alternatives at one time.

The choice as you see it seems to be
Religious/Humane
vs.
Atheist/Marxist type totalitarian

Most of us would choose a religious society over a marxist society (even me, whom you consider a Marxist).

However, that is not the only choice today.

We can choose a theocracy,
or we can
choose to live in a Marxist country
or
we can choose to live in a country like Holland or Japan
where about 10% of the people believe in God
but they don't believe in exterminating Orthodox Priests or Jews or homosexuals or Catholics.

E Favorite,
The Teacher has stepped out of the room, and has administered an open book test, with private consultation available by appointment. Just because you can't see the Teacher, and don't understand the test, does not mean either the Teacher or the test don't exist. Happy test-taking to you.

Dear Religionists/Residents of Fantasy Land -

Richard Dawkins holds two doctorates. The proper salutation is Dr Dawkins, not Mr Dawkins.

Normally, I wouldn't mention it, but time and time again, Christians on this blog have shown that they will use any technique they can to diminish (in their eyes and their eyes alone) any rationalist who challenges their fantasy world. With CS, it's referring to Dr Dawkins as "Dinky." With many of the other Xian posters, it's calling Dawkins Mr rather than Dr.

On the other hand, the religionists seem to have no problem applying the salutation of Dr to religionists who don't hold doctorates. Note to religionists: the title Reverend doesn't equate to Doctor.

Thanks for listening.

Any correlation between atheistic leaders who have committed atrocities and religious zealots who have committed atrocities only establishes a correlation between power and religion. The atheistic leaders used power to subjugate the masses. Religion controls the masses (whether you consider it intentional or not). The religious view and ideological view were the justification for performing the atrocity.

Religious passages and ideological theories have provided justification for many evil deeds. The problem arises when a follower of a particular religion or ideology vehemently believes his "opinion" to be a "fact" and seeks to impose his opinion and deny any public discourse in countering opinions.

The problem for the deed-doer is that the only way his deed will be perceived as good by all is if he eliminates all those who see his deed as evil. In contra, the only way for the deed to be seen as evil by all is if everyone understands that the deed-doer is justifying his actions based merely on an opinion. Unless a religion or ideology is able to accept that it is merely an opinion, then it will always be able to be used as justification for what others may consider evil; however, I’m not sure this is even possible due to the very nature of religions and ideologies.

A side note: shouldn’t Hitler’s atrocities fall under religious atrocities (not atheistic). Didn’t he claim to be the leader of the Third Reich, Holy Roman Empire, use the cross as his symbol, and have endorsement by the Pope? I’m no Hitler history buff, but I think his atrocities should be tallied under religion (if not also under ideological – or “atheist” as others have titled it).

Richard Dawkins is a child of the Enlightenment and holds that man is born good and institutions make him bad. Change the institutions and man will revert to his original goodness (Christian thinking has an opposite view: as man is born prone to sin, change/redeem the man—who has a tendency towards bad deeds—and the institutions will change. Or at least build institutions that allow for this tendency.)

Since their views of humanity are diametrically opposed it is logical that the Enlightened ‘Brights’ would wish to eradicate religion. (Voltaire, Rousseau and the philosophers were viscerally anti-clerical.) Karl Marx held that priests kept the working classes in chains and believed that religion would “wither away”; Trotsky, Lenin, Stalin, Mao and the rest of the communist rogue gallery couldn’t wait and took action..Lenin’s first action in power was to summarily shoot the ten most senior prelates of the Russian Orthodox church.

The rest, as they say, is history. The evidence is clear. This new ‘Enlightened’ ideology led to mass murder (sometimes on a gigantic scale) and terror * in every country the new atheist ideology was implemented*--from an advanced democracy like Czechoslovakia to peasant economies like North Korea and Cambodia to an agrarian Latino society such as Cuba. (And had communists seized power in, say, Britain the result would have been exactly the same.)

So Mr Dawkins is being faithful to his Enlightenment ideals. But the problem is that the historical evidence is diametrically opposed to his contention that it is *religion * that causes good men to do bad things. Twentieth century history shows that *atheist-inspired ideologies* were what caused *all * men to do terrible things.

I left out a NOT above:

meant to say

My point is that: contrary to popular ignorance, belief in God is **NOT*** necessary for morality and societies that don't believe in God will **NOT** cease to be healthy/moral.

In fact, they tend to be more healthy/moral.

Statistician writes
"The countries you mentioned previously have a statistically older population, which yields a large statistical difference.

The common belief is not
"Godless societies will collapse into social and moral decay UNLESS they aqre statistically older."

My point is that: contrary to popular ignorance, belief in God is necessary for morality and societies that don't believe in God will cease to be healthy/moral.

STAT then writes: They also tend to self-define their lives as less happy than cultures where religion has a level of influence,

Henry writes: I visited a Harvard Professor friend of mine (my brother), and noticed he had a horseshoe on the wall.
I said "you don't believe in that crap, do you?"
He said "of course not, but I hear that it works whether you believe in it or not"

So I will believe in God even though i'm pretty sure there is no God so I can be happy.
Don't worry. Be Happy. Then you never have to grow up.

Got to run catch a cab.

Peace
henry