The Church's Sexual Fixation

The sacred assignment of a true religious teacher is to tell, tell, and tell. True Christians leader are to follow Jesus’ example and tell the truth regarding Jehovah God’s purpose and standards.

1Peter 2: 21-22: “In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely. He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.”

Jesus denounced the religious leaders of his day because they were hypocrites and failed to live up to their role as true religious leaders.

John 8:44-47: “ YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. Because I, on the other hand, tell the truth, YOU do not believe me. Who of YOU convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it YOU do not believe me? He that is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why YOU do not listen, because YOU are not from God.”
In favor of popular morality, many churches have changed their message. Priests and preachers have given up teaching that God requires obedience. Instead, many teach that each individual must decide for himself what is right and what is wrong. Trying to gain popularity, some religious leaders claim that God accepts you no matter how you live. Such teaching calls to mind what the Bible foretold: “There will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled.”—2 Timothy 4:3
What does the Bible teach? It plainly states: “Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men . . . will inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10)
These religious frauds are also described as “false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.” The Bible goes on to say: “Their end shall be according to their works.” (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)
Their works include “loose conduct,” which is a brazen disregard for high moral principles. (2 Peter 2:1-3, 12-14)
An increasing number of religious leaders and their followers adopt—or at least condone—unchristian practices, such as homosexuality and sex outside of marriage. Please take a moment to compare these widely accepted views and lifestyles with what the Bible states at Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26, 27; 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10; Hebrews 13:4; and Jude 7.
Christians should heed the apostle John’s words not to take our religious beliefs lightly or for granted. “Do not believe every inspired expression,” he warns, “but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.”—1 John 4:1.
Genuine Christians are not influenced by the ebb and flow of popular views but cling firmly to Bible truth. Wrote the apostle Paul: “This is what I continue praying, that your love may abound yet more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment.”—Philippians 1:9.

I know that Catholics believe that gay people should be respected as people. They are not against them as people, just not supportive of their lifestyle.

Just a thought...

Leviticus is an ancient 'holy code' that was intended for the priests of that day, and which Jesus and Paul said did not even apply to people at Jesus' time...let alone to our time. Come one people, you can't look at ancient texts out of context and apply it to now. That would be kind of stoopid.

If you do insist on doing it, though, I hope don't ever feel the need to pleasure yourself, as it is forbidden:

"He spilled his seed on the ground... And the thing which Onan did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also" (Genesis 38:9-10).

Pretty harsh.

You lairs, claiming Jesus said nothing about sexuality. He clearly said,"I came to verify the old laws (Jewish) and don't come to change anything."

I always wondered why every passing day west is going shamelessly promiscuous, vulgar, obscene, abhorrent to morality or virtue and repulsive by reason of crass disregard of moral or ethical principles. OTHER THEN RUTHLESSLY VIOLENT AND BARBARIC TO OTHER RELIGIONS AND RACES!!

-Why kids are molested in there dark churches and convents by there priests. TURNED INTO MILLIONS OF GAYS OR ETHEIST, I GUESS BETTER CHOICE FOR THEM!
- Why children are molested by there parents (mostly adopted not blood related) in your society?
- Why every second women is raped in your society? Alone in USA more than 2730 women raped every single day.
-Why teenage girl’s pregnancy is out of control in your society?
-Why kids are not properly raised by there parents and why old parents are not been taken care by there kids in your society?
-Why your society is so violent and crime rate is so high in its civic fabric?

FIRST I WAS SHOCKED, IMMEDIATELY AFTER READING BIBLE REALIZING THAT ALL MY EYES GET WET, I PRAYED AND THANKED GOD AND ASKED FOR HIS MERCY AND FORGIVENESS, THAT HE SAVED ME FROM THE CURSE OF TWISTED LIES…….AS ALL THE ACTUAL VIRTUOUS VERSIONS, ALL THAT WE MUSLIMS KNOW ARE MOSTLY NOT AWARE OF THE WAY…VULGORLY THOSE HISTORY STORIES ARE TWISTED IN THE BIBLE.

I READ YOUR BIBLE AND CAME TO REALIZE WHAT KIND OF TWISTED VOLGUR ATRIBUTES YOU HAVE ATTACHED TO YOUR PROPHETS AND TO YOUR LORD GOD. YOU HAVEN’T LEFT ANYONE, FATHER TO DAUGHER, SON TO MOTHER, GOD TO SARAH, THERE BASTERED OFF SPRINGS. HAVE YOU LEFT ANYBODY THERE?????
AND THAT IS THE CURSE IN REALITY WHICH IS REFLECTING UPON YOUR WHOLE SOCIETY, BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!!!!!!

VERY FEW EXAMPLES OUT OF THE BIBLE……..

PROPHET LOT AND HIS DAUGHTERS (YOUR BIBLE TELLS SLEEPING TOGATHER AND HAVING CHILDREN)

30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Lets get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."
33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father

PROPHETS SON SLEEPING WITH HER MOTHER YOUR BIBLE TELLS-GENESIS 35

21 Israel moved on again and pitched his tent beyond Migdal Eder. 22 While Israel was living in that region, Reuben went in and slept with his father's concubine Bilhah, and Israel heard of it.
Jacob had twelve sons:

PROPHET ABRAHAM MARRIED HER REAL SISTER ACCORDING TO YOUR BIBLE

11 Abraham replied, "I said to myself, 'There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.' 12 Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife.

THE BIRTH OF ISAAC (LORD DID FOR SARAH, WHAT HAD PROMISED) ACCORDING TO YOUR BIBLE IT WAS NOT ABRAHAM
Genesis 21 (New International Version)

1 Now the LORD was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did for Sarah what he had promised. 2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him.

Now I clearly understand that why our Quran tells that Bible or any other divine book is not in its original form and are all tainted by the evil doers. And that why we do not believe or follow them, though we do believe in all divine books including bible revealed in their original form but do not exist. AND WE ALSO BELIEVE IN ALL THE PROPHETS INCLUDING JESUS CHRIST AND OUR QURAN REJECTS ALL KIND OF VOLGARITIES ATTRIBUTED TO THEM OR TO OUR GOD. AND EXPLAINS AND TELL STORIES ABOUT HOW VIRTUOUS THEY WERE IN REALITY!!!!!

Thank you brother, the world is on fire from global warming and senseless warfare and they are worried about someone's sex life. Priorities please!

Read Romans 1:18-32 (concetrate on verse 28)

First of all, Jesus spoke strongly against sexual immorality, which in the context of Scripture, included homosexuality. Paul affirmed that homosexuality is contary to God's intention for human beings in Romans 1. It is sophistry to compare the Levitical prohibition on interbreeding of animals to the corruption of human sexuality. It is also irrelevant to Christians, since the Bible states clearly that Christians are not subject to the Law of Moses. Whether you believe the New Testament or not, it clearly states that homosexuality is a corruption of human sexuality.

Second, in genuine Christianity, divorce is prohibited except in cases of marital infidelity. The fact that mainstream churches have decided to allow it does not change this fact. The Kingdom of God is not a democracy. Voting to ignore the Word of God doesn't change it.

Third, the ordination of women is a disputable matter in the Scripture. However, one should note that ordination itself is a disputable matter. There is no indication of a New Testament priesthood in the Bible except the priesthood of all believers. And, in fact, the need for a human priesthood in the Old Testament sense passed away when Jesus, the High Priest, offered Himself as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of all people on the cross. No more sacrifice was needed. Therefore, no more human priesthood was required. For those churches who don't have priests but have pastors, one can make a good case either way for allowing women to be pastors.

There are enough Americans left who are rooted in the Word of God to protest the promotion of homosexuality as a natural and normal lifestyle. These Americans do not protest the right of fellow citizens to do what they want in their bedrooms. But they do protest the idea that the government should promote homosexuality and particularly, that churches should promote it.

And when I say this, I observe that *history is a litany of civilizations building great things, and people of an apocalyptic mindset taking their knowledge and privilege thinking that *they* are *too important* for the world to survive their mortal deaths.

Frankly, I observe that the civilizations that last just happen to have had that longevity while full of those folks that plan on being *back.*

Not who say the *world* must be purified of things that don't fit in order to acheive some 'eternal reward.'

People get hurt that way.

And it all starts again.

I'll just put this out there for LDS Mark, who says:

"lepidopteryx: I think you are confused...."

"We chose to come here in the pre-existence to prove ourselves."

Pagans do not believe that this life is 'pre-existence' or merely a place to 'prove' something for a later, unseen lifetime.

We certainly wouldn't take such an idea to believe it means we should hurt ourselves or others in this life for being different, as if there were any way we could conceive of that being helpful later.

Especially when you say:

"If we find ourselves outliving our family, it would please Jesus greatly if we were to help other families until our time comes."

If you think your God's great plan can absorb things like, oh, people that were planned for being *dead,* ...why not people being gay?

Maybe, part of what we 'damned queers' are 'here to do' is in fact to *help other families from the get-go.*

Far from being unnatural... That's what actually happens.

"Without god’s plan of family, that could not have happened."

I'd say, Who's limiting themselves here, if you believe that 'plan' is so monolithic that it only includes individual families who can breed in competition with each other.

But, really.... that kind of thing's not *our* idea of a 'plan,' anyway.

To us, *life is not a prequel.* It's not an 'entrance exam.' It's not a valueless thing whose only value is as something to be judged on before the real living starts.

We tend to think that thinking that way is the surest way to get people hurting each other in the name of 'higher causes.'

I mean, your beliefs are your beliefs, but, if you don't even believe this life is all that important, ...leave some choice for those of us who think it is.

I'm actually pretty tired of people who think they know all about 'God's plan' trying to talk down to me.

I mean, for a 'plan' that can be used to explain away just about any damn inconvenient reality, it seems awful short on accounting for 'racial and sexual and cultural variations' as well as 'Other people in the world you don't get to rule.'

But maybe that's nitpicking. :)

Still, when you Mormons come to the door at odd hours of the morning, waking me from often-must-needed rest, in order to say, "What are you gonna do when you die," all it does is stress me out about my dear one's lack of survivor benefits.

If 'the afterlife' were all about guessing which Christian sect to obey, I'd be pretty screwed, anyway.

Of course, my usual answer to 'What are you going to do after you die' is usually a long suffering, 'Prolly the same as last time, we'll see if I'm any smarter.' :)

Life doesn't wait.

Love doesn't wait.

Wisdom doesn't wait.

A soul can't run around the cosmos waiting for things to be important or meaningful enough to pay attention to.

Or, at least, you can't run around *this* life telling others to act as though you can.

Doesn't work that way.

Kindly let the rest of us live.

Mark:

I'm not confused. You said to Russel:

**You know that the center of God's plan is family.
It is the reason for and the purpose in life.**

I don't feel that my family is the reason or purpose for my life.

**Your family obviously means everything to you, but it does not end with the death of a member.**

My family means a great deal to me, more than any other temporal thing, But if they meant EVERYTHING, then my reason for living would end if they were no longer in my life.

**We chose to come here in the pre-existence to prove ourselves.**

Your theology, not mine. I didn't choose to be born at all. That was my parents' doing. And I don't beleive that I was born in order to prove myself. I'm not even sure what you mean by that. Prove what about ourselves?

**Without god’s plan of family, that could not have happened.**

Conception happens. Although I do recall a few shouts of "OH GOD!" shortly before my daughter was conceived, I'm pretty sure her dad and I were the only ones in the bed.

**After physical death, we can be reunited with our family.**

Again, your theology, not mine.

**If we find ourselves outliving our family, it would please Jesus greatly if we were to help other families until our time comes.**

I think it would please my gods as well, not to mention the people I'm able to help. Which would not be possible if my family were my purpose in life. Thanks for making my point so clear.

4th watch

Good point.
Jesus did clear up a lot of things when he was on earth.
You also need to consider that he led the Old Testament prophets, and his lead had to conform to the laws of that time until he came himself.

lepidopteryx:

I think you are confused.
Your family obviously means everything to you, but it does not end with the death of a member.
We chose to come here in the pre-existence to prove ourselves.
Without god’s plan of family, that could not have happened.
After physical death, we can be reunited with our family.
If we find ourselves outliving our family, it would please Jesus greatly if we were to help other families until our time comes.

Don’t limit yourself.

mark

Concerning adultery and stoning—
To know Jesus’ view on these, please read ~John 8:1-11~ That is the definition of a class act.
To characterize Jesus using O.T. law passages is exactly what the Pharisees tried to do they believed in the law (Mosaic) not the freedom to be found in Jesus.
Christ’s teachings are found on this side of the cross-- N.T. not in O.T.--the other side of the cross.
Mr.Balmer, like many jumps between the old and new testaments to shore up their view of a convenient sin.

LDS Mark:

As much as I love my family, they are not my reason for existence. Unless you count my conception being the result of my parents having had unprotected sex.

If my family were my reason for existence, then my life would have had no purpose without them. Had my daughter never been born, had I never met my husband, my life would still have purpose.

If my family were my reason for existence, then I would have no reason to go on living if something happened to them. Even if my parents, sister, neice and nephew, daughter, and husbamd were all dead, I would still find purpose in continuing to live.

My family is a great source of love and joy to me. They are not my purpose.

The passage about stoning disobedient children is Deuteronomy 21:18-21

18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Russell D.:

You know that the center of God's plan is family.
It is the reason for and the purpose in life.
There is a lot you could gain from scriptures in your family life.
It is not a crutch. It is guide to life.

mark

LDS MArk:

Nope, got no belief in Jesus.
I'd rather put my faith in myself and my family and my friends.

I don't use crutches.

By the way, i see nothing about stoning children in Leviticus.

Where do you guys get this stuff?

mark

RUSSELL D.:

You are forgetting another rule that Jesus has made, that we must follow the law of the land.
It was implied in his statement “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s” and it was also made clear in recent revelation.

Jesus recognizes the right of a country or king to make their own laws, and we are to follow those laws as long as they are morally correct. If they are not, we are to work within the laws of the land to correct the situation, as good citizens would do.

So your’s and other’s examples about stoning children are moot if you follow ALL of his laws. (Capitalization intended).

Again I stress my original point about not picking and choosing which of Jesus’ laws you will follow.

And, yes, I believe in Jesus.
How about you?

mark

Ooooh The Moderate. One with "special" wisdom. One with the "ability" to understand things no mere mortal can. And let me guess, you have a small following, please tell me its not your children?

Moderate,

Thank you for the suggested read. I can't say I've come to many firm conclusions regarding my religious beliefs besides the fact that you can't (in my opinion) study it without in parallel studying the history that surrounds it and the people that shaped it. It's very interesting to trace biblical fables and characters as far back as early Mesopotamia to recognize the thread that runs through these writings...and through those who've consumed them over the centuries.

I think that organized religion today, and always, suffers from the human tendency towards certainty and finality over learning and exploration. Certainly, this is not a fallibility only found on the "religious" end of the spectrum, but it is that group who is most organized and influential in many people's lives.

While I've shed nearly all of the rituals of my religious heritage (and have married a Jewish woman), I've come to believe that the times in my life where I went through those motions were by no means the times where I was most living the ideals...

I truly wonder what how my views will continue to evolve as I grow older.

Dear Rick,

"Correction: 2000 year old."

3,000 years old, actually. The Pentateuch was probably written down in the court of Solomon somewhere in the tenth century B.C. Harold Bloom believes that the "Book of J" was written by a woman. He makes in interesting case in the his eponymous "The Book of J". Very interesting read. He suggests that she did not mean to have it taken literally.

That would make the writing about 3,000 years old. An oral tradion of another couple of thousand years preceded this.

People like HEYYOU have not even begun to read it for what is there. Neither have its rabid opponents that you see here, many of whom function at the same level as HEYYOU.

Correction: 2000 year old.

Correction: 2000 year old.

"Hatred of God"?

I haven't heard of anyone here mentioning hatred of God (explicit or implicit), what I've mostly seen are people trying to interpret religious texts and teachings in the context of today's world and unfortunately finding little but arrogance from the likes of those who feel they are above reflecting on these things.

It's not about pointing fingers and calling names...

HEYYOU, I would appreciate your candid personal views on these topics, minus the need to paste in snippets of biblical texts and basically saying "there... see, that's what I believe"... When you leave your house in the morning, don't you experience the world and the people in it? Don't you find yourself surprised by how different people are from your expectations? Don't you ever reflect how difficult it is to truly know even people you believe you "truly know"? Apply those experiences to a God you know mostly through 1000 year old texts... to me, that's the "mystery" of it all and what makes religion something different than rote instructions.

As I said earlier, we wouldn't have been endowed with so much ability to think and question if we were not intended to use it...

"Randy Gay Angels" - great name for a band...

Actually I believe Mr Balmer is spot on. I’m certainly not the first to ask the question but I have yet to hear anyone really answer it. I’ll throw it out there again I suppose…

If Christianity can evolve past biblical authority calling for stoning adulterers and bratty kids, burning witches, condoning slavery, treating women as property, and wearing mixed fabrics, and so on and so on, then what is the hang up with homosexuality?

Anyone?

Good grief Mr. Balmer, the play by play account of your spiritual superiority down at the Holiday Inn certainly is impressive. Also the way you prefaced it with
“Thy Kingdom Come” book really is an awesome display of Christian humility.
Don’t blame the Protestants for your current state of flummox concerning homosexuality, your interpretation of scripture is more blameworthy.

HeyYou:

I have told you more than that. All you need to do is read.

But apparently, that is too hard for you. I guess we'll pick this up in the morning.

And "FIRE!"? What the heck? Are you Beavis or Butthead now.

Russell D, what you have told me so far is you believe nothing and immorality is subjective.

FIRE!!

Imagine one day you're sitting there with your power-hungry friends, trying to come up with something that will feed you what you crave, power.

You need people to subjugate, how are you going to get a willing bunch of patsies to agree to this?

Let's try this: what are the primary driving needs humans have? Food, oxygen, water ... the need to procreate and have children - to have sex. The human really can't resist these urges, they're in the brain.

So let's go with sex - hey, the average human male can't seem to think about much else without sex creeping into it.

So you make sex out to be an evil thing, something the sinner should feel guilty about. Guess what? Now the male subjugate feels guilty all the time. How is he to deal with this?

You offer forgiveness.

See the cycle? sex == sin == guilt == need for forgiveness.

Of course the subjugates will all argue about the number of angels dancing on the pin head, but you basically have your power.

And here's your chance. :)

HeyYou:

Yea, I am still waiting on something of substance from you, but all I am getting is "Blah, blah, blah"

We'll not mention how conspicuously-different I've been treated by the likes of you, Arminius, since 'coming out' here. (Not that it was a big secret. But.)

You call yourself an 'ally' but all you do is impugn my character for not *appreciating* the societal abuse that you, by your own admission, didn't have the courage to stand up to.

Now you say, "Oh, I *would* have stood up for you, but I decided it wasn't worth it. So shut up and say I'm an ally."

I've often referred to things said by your Jesus I find admirable, and to my own ancestors who tried to make good on it. This doesn't mean that I'm obligated to tell you 'you're really all right' for letting the injustice happen, then telling me I'm supposed to accept your definition of me as a 'sinner' or subject to your "Lord" just cause you *claim* to be "on my side."

Still haven't seen you call a Christian homophobe on nothing, yet.

Hi Rick,

Glad you liked it. I'm thinking of writing a book of Bible Stories as they probably happened.

Maurie

All this hatred of God coming from homosexual folk who worship homosexual man and woman. Your god is really flawed LOL!

HEYYOU,

If I were to read the (sins of the) "flesh" as a more broad description of human fallibility and the all too common human tendencies towards selfishness, closed-mindedness, hatred, dishonesty, etc... rather than the very limited view that this refers to sexual acts... I think I would come up with a much more consistent, understandable and frankly relevant interpretation of these passages.

The moment I attempt to put on my "sex" lense and cite them as proof of Biblical intent in this area, they lose their relevance and frankly don't make sense.

I'll admit to not knowing EXACTLY what the message here means...but doesn't the exploration and consideration of the alternatives, breadth and possible meanings of these sorts of things bring you closer rather than further away? Doesn't it leave you feeling like you're a part of a faith, or is it our duty to line up like sheep? In the early centuries of Christianity, didn't followers actively debate and interpret scripture? Is this no longer necessary?

At the end of the day HEYYOU, we all make our choices and we all will have to deal with whatever those choices bring us... none of us really know what it is (or whether it is anything), but that's another debate.

Best to you, try sometimes to imagine that you don't have the perspective you actually have...

" Arminius:

PaganPlace,

"Why is it a pity that I said it is an inside joke? I understood, I laughed."

It's a pity that so few have a sense of humor about what they think is the world, in other words.

"Yes, I have heard Lep and Wiccan say good things about the Lord I believe in. I don't remember hearing this from you."

That's pretty interesting, given I seem to remember saying a couple good things today.

Not that I'm obligated to.

Actually, it seems we were friendly enough till you started assaulting my character for disagreeing with you, all the while saying, 'I'm an ally, you should take this crap from me.!'

"If I had known where to go to tell someone about my outrage about Falwell & Co after his comments, I would have done so."

The next person you met would have sufficed.

Things like that get around.

Barring that, the next gay or Pagan or feminist or liberal person.

Or the media.
That would have worked, too.

At the time I was busy worrying if the Muslims up the street were gonna get lynched.

" But it would have fallen on deaf ears. I don't enjoy trying to converse with brick walls."

Are you calling me a brick wall, or asking for forgiveness?

Maurie, Thanks for the chuckle.

I actually think that while this was written I'm sure somewhat in gest... it MUST cause any thinking person to stop for a moment and think about how different reality often is from how it is recorded by those who experienced it... or even more so, how different reality was from how it was described by those who DIDN'T...

"Randy Gay Angels"... I am going to try to find a use for this phrase in everyday life... this is damned funny, but hopefully not "damning"...

Rick

Near as I can tell, this all hinges on the concept of biblical infallibility. Not being an expert on such matters, I went looking for the basis of this belief.

And I was appalled. No, not a strong enough word. Aghast. Horrified. I'm still working on a word strong enough. I was actually expecting the circular reasoning: "it is because it says it is", except that it doesn't even say that, at least not directly. At least the argument "It's God's Word; God is perfect, therefore the Bible is perfect, too" only falls down for being circular, or based on an a priori assumption, take your pick.

But the one that really rankles me is "if you can question one part, then you can question any part, and thereby justify anything." This is supposed to be a revocation of doubt (some idiot's definition of "faith" apparently), but in fact it is a revocation of reason, equating mere interpretation with faithlessness. No one is capable of figuring out that an idea is bad on their own apparently! What a relief! For a minute there it looked like we'd actually have to THINK! The Creator is truly benevolent! Think I'll go watch some TV or something.

I swear, these people act like God gave them brains in an attempt to trip them up. No contradiction there, right?

1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the
law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was
through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful
flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according
to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to
the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not
subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh
but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does
not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

heyYOU:

You may have God in your little corner of the world, but, your knowledge of English, in a word, sucks.

JG

I agree with Norrie and others.

A very nice essay, Professor Balmer.

Norrie - All religious organizations would take a great leap forward toward peace, harmony, and enlightenment if they simply adopted The Ham Sandwich Principle.

Perhaps the Ham Sandwich Principle is another of the Pearls in the parable by Terra Gazelle.

Of course, I'm a Contrarian, so I want too point out that pearls are actually a defense mechanism that Oysters and other Mollusks use for sequestering irritants.

Finally, here is a little story about Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah:

“But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly. And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.”
-Genesis 19:5-8.

In Sodom, Lot is visited by angels and warned to get out before god destroys the town in fire and brimstone because of all the sodomites (Hence the name Sodom). Meanwhile, a gay mob shows up at his door and demands the angels for a gay train. Instead he hands over his virgin teenage daughters (a substitute for the angels) to placate the gay mob. This really pisses the mob off because they don’t want nubile young virgins, but randy gay angels they can have depraved sex with. Unfortunately for the gay mob, these are not randy gay angels, and are thus smoted. After some prodding by the angels to make haste, Lot flees Sodom with his family to avoid the coming destruction.

According to Genesis 19:26, on the way out of town, God turned his wife into a pillar of salt for looking back toward Sodom. What I always wanted to know was how Lot knew that his wife got turned into a pillar of salt, if she was following behind him like any good dutiful wife. The only way he would have known is if he had turned around too, yet he managed to escape her fate.

I think what actually happened was that when his wife complained outside of town about having to leave the cozy village of Sodom, Lot probably clobbered her with a big rock of salt and then said god did it. Most likely, his wife liked Sodom because all the men were into having gay sex and basically left her alone. Her husband obviously left her alone too, because she was an old hag.

After having clobbered his wife, he impregnates his daughters because they got him drunk and took advantage of him in a cave. In reality, Lot, even though he was a god-fearing man, now had two beautiful virgin teenage daughters instead of an ugly old wife. If his daughters did get him drunk, it was probably so that he would fall asleep and leave them alone. Instead he was probably one mean-ass drunk who self-medicated to keep the demons at bay that apparently afflicted the lineage of Abraham with mental illness. Not only was the lineage schizo, but their god was too. (e.g. Abraham almost barbequed his son because god told him to in order to test his love for god. Moses is plagued by a god who loves him and then tries to kill him, gives him visions of burning bushes, laws, a bad sense of direction, and finally discourses on what to do to non-believers).

Regardless, Lot was going to have his way and history is written by the victors; i.e. his daughters got him drunk and took advantage of him. I’d like to see how that defense would fly in a modern court of law.

Lot. "But your honor, they got me drunk and took advantage of me."

The Judge, looking incredulous, asks, "How old are your daughters, sir?"

Lot. "Well, you know how young teenagers are, they are wanton and can't be controlled. Besides, they are pretty girls, don't you think, and virgins, not like their mother, that old hag. Perhaps if you spent some time with them, they might change your mind?"

The judge furrows his brow, thinks a moment, then says, "I'll take it under advisement. Send the young girls into my chambers, so that I may more thoroughly know their intentions.

Didn't finish this thought:
Note, this is not a knock on Christianity--- it is a historical fact and in many I think is a challenge to those who call themselves "religious". In order to truly appreciate your faith, you must have the curiosity and strength of character to question its tenets, put its teachings into context (especially when every word of its teachings was penned by men, and every word was vetted by the leaders of an empire) and receive its messages through those lenses.

Or perhaps... recognize the "political" angles which have ALWAYS been at work in organized religion.

Aren't you bored just taking instructions verbatim?

I grew up in a very "religious" setting and spent my years in Catholic school, but as I have said to many of my friends I felt the best "teaching" I received was the love from my family. I felt that this reflected in a useful and practical way the true teachings of the church, which seemed to me to be, at its core, teachings of love for others.

As I've grown older and become much more interested in the history of the church and religion itself, I've unfortunately come to view the "organized" faiths as much more reflective of human weaknesss, power struggles and aligned more with political issues than the very core teachings of the faiths they profess to represent. It was no accident that Christianity probably survived as a result of a shrewd emperor co-opt'ing its messages, melding them with Pagan rituals and consolidating power through them. Note, this is not a knock on Christianity--- it is a historical fact and in many I think is a challenge to those who call themselves "religious".

My biggest disappointment with these posts is the fact that many of you who so strongly condemn appear to have truly lost your humility in the face of debate, and have taken positions that seem to imply that you KNOW exactly what "God" wishes you to think and how to act (or how others should not act).

I don't know how exactly how God wants me to live, but I do think I know the guidelines... they are the simplest of axioms. I also know that I've been given the intellect to explore, question and doubt. I fear the day that I become so hardened that I cannot imagine an alternative viewpoint.

And by way... this is not relativism. It's using the brain you were given to ask questions, learn and reflect. We would've gotten much less powerful instruments if all we were required to do was read a set of instructions, ask a priest or shaman what they mean, and then go on and live them to the letter.

I'm sure some of you with all the answers haven't spent nearly as much time protesting wars which are killing our citizens or questioning sanctioned torture... or have you decided that those are acceptable in certain circumstances? Is this relativism?

Dear RB:

“So, either Jesus was having a "thing" with Mary Magdalene or else he was gay. Either way, the Catholic church is screwed, philosophically speaking.”

Why does it follow from the premise that Jesus was not porking Mary Magdalene that he is gay?

Your logic is right up there with the old Syllogism:

“Some dogs have spots.
My dog has spots.
My dog is SOME dog.”

While there is some evidence suggesting the Mary Magdalene was an apostle, that does not close the case on her getting down with Jesus.

Wiccan,
Hey You reminds me of an old joke..a Pagan dies and finds himself at the Golden Gates(Not Micky D's)...in front of the gates is an old man in a robe. The Pagan looks around and walking up to the Guardian of the Gate say," I think I've come to the wrong place, this looks like heaven and I am Pagan." The Guardian said," well there are some who call this heaven and me Peter." "Come on in."

The Pagan walks in the gates and sees rolling hills and streams of fresh flowing water...cats chasing butterflies and dogs laying in the sun. People are walking hand and hand, children are chasing each other...and groups of people were sitting at the feet of men and women as if being taught and a large stag was grazing on the green.

The Pagan sees this and says," Wow is this Summerland?" The Guardian says," Well some call it that and me The Sage." Just then there is a big Boom and a puff of smoke raises into the distance. The Pagan looks worriedly at the Guardian. The old man says..." Well if you go over the hill there and off past the temple you will find the drum circle, they should be starting soon."

Just then a man runs up and grabing the Guardian with a terrorfied look hollers," I am a sinner, a sinner..how will I pay for my sins here..I must suffer, I must suffer.."

The Guardian grabs the arm of the Pagan and runs back from the horrified man...just then the earth opens and screaming and lamenting is heard from beneith the earth, streams of sufferic smoke rises...but the look on the man's face was releived as he falls into the firey hell below.

The ground closes and the sounds are again children laughing and the murmer of the stream.

The Pagan looks at the guardian and says..." What was that???"The Guardian says..."Well some Christians just love to suffer."

Jihadist, Blessed be! glad to see you here also.

Hey You,
My name Terra is an online name..my real name means Beautiful Peace...I figured that was a real misnomer. But Terra says what I hold as sacred. The Gazelle has a special meaning that just does not translate for the masses.

As far as my gods..they answer me each day. I live, I have enough to be happy and live well...without having too much so that others have less. The sun smiles on me and the moon fills me...heck I am a happy little Witch..
As far as other Wiccans comeing to my aid if needed...they have. As I have. We are a community.

It means less on what Gods you choose to call on...then what you have in your spirit. We are warriors...as well as healers.

terra

Dear LEPIDOPTERYX:

“I've come close to CTS emailing Falwell (when he was alive) Robertson, Wildmon, Swaggart, etc. challenging some the horrid things I hear them say in the name of a man I very much admire, even if I don't worship him.”

I would add Jim Baker to that too. No surprise that they did not respond. They are into making money and exalting themselves.

There are a lot of horrid things said in the name of Jesus Christ by these clowns. Being a member of a Christian community, I just don't run across these kind of people much, so I wince when I hear of some of their outrages.

A standard comment for these kind of people is: “If you are persecuting someone in the name of Jesus Christ, you must seriously ask your self if that is who you are actually following.”

They often don't even understand that they are persecuting people out of their own self righteousness. It is worth pointing out to them that they are usurping God's role in making the judgments that they do.

Jesus also said:

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

So HeyYou, I recommend that you go back and read the bible about a hundred more times. All of it; not just the parts that make you feel superior to your fellow men and women. Honestly look for the beam in your own eye, and only when you have found some try to help your fellows.

Always ask yourself if you would like to be judged with what measure ye mete, and if you would like to have it measured to you again.

Wiccan,

You got Irish in you? No wonder I like you! My father was born there. We were expats from Border Scotland, ca 1630. I am Celtic to the core, in my soul anyway, because there is a distressing amount of English in there. Hell, nobody's perfect.....

Merry Meet, Jihadist! Hope the worlds of family and finance are bringing you joy.

Guess I get a little mouthy now and then, but it plucks my last nerve when someone screams hate AND calls himself a Christian. My sister is a Christian, and fairly or unfairly, I hold all Christians to her standard. Christians and Pagans have coexisted in our family since at least the 1700s, and if a bunch of ornery Irish can get this right, I can't see why it's so hard for everyone else.

Like John Lennon said, "All you need is love." :-)

So, either Jesus was having a "thing" with Mary Magdalene or else he was gay. Either way, the Catholic church is screwed, philosophically speaking.

So, either Jesus was having a "thing" with Mary Magdalene or else he was gay. Either way, the Catholic church is screwed, philosophically speaking.

Brambleton: I see Christian men greet each other regularly with a hug and hold each other accountable for their sins - something I rarely, if ever, see with my non-Christian friends.

Holding someone accountable for their sins in your view is a good thing? First, in my experience, no one has a clue as to what is a sin and what isn't. Going by the bible, there are lots of behaviors that are routine today but would have landed someone in jail 30 years ago -- and maybe even dead 100 years ago. That's part of the problem with religion.

As HeyYou spouts hate in an attempt to demonstrate the love of Jesus, I tend to conclude that the bible is a pretty poor guide for moral values as well as how to live.

Isn't it ironic that most majority religions view BELIEF as the key incrediant to a proper life. Don't worry so much about how you treat people so long as you believe, that's the real deal.

And since HeyYou has dismissed the old testament, I guess he couldn't care anything of the 10 commandments. Now how are we supposed to understand the importance of the 10 commandments?

Here are the old rules that God thought so important that he wrote them himself. Man, would I love to see the penmanship on those babies -- it would be interesting to analyze them.....Maybe God made loop de loops which would mean he's very creative. Or maybe he cut off his letters indicating a sterness.

Now of course there certainly are some problems with the 10 commandments. Let's start with thou shall love your god. Now really, how much love must there be if he has to command you to love him? I don't know, it just seems to lose something if I have to be commanded to love something. Love me you puny human. Okay, boy do I love you God.

So, if I understand this, believe and love God and the rest of that stuff, like graven images, well they are not that important.

Lep,

No, you don't need to tell me you never got a response from those (many expletives deleted) wretched people such as Falwell and Robertson. That is why I did not bother to call them out.

I know full well that you respect Jesus, and I love you for it. I believe that Wiccan does that too. PaganPlace - well, that is another issue.

God bless. Or, if you will, Gods Bless! Same goal, different paths.

Arminius:

I've come close to CTS emailing Falwell (when he was alive) Robertson, Wildmon, Swaggart, etc. challenging some the horrid things I hear them say in the name of a man I very much admire, even if I don't worship him. Do I need to tell you that not once have I gotten a response from any of them?

The Manichean concept of heaven and hell stems from the most primitive urge of humans for orientation, from fear and insecurity. And if you have only two choices instead of the thousands of gray shades that constitute a serious life, you don't have to waste a single thought, a differentiated observation, a try at understanding others at least to some degree, or "god beware", even have some doubt about stories sold as "truths" under the threat of eternal torture!

Thus, you are either right or wrong, an idiotic concept which destroys any imaginable human endeavor, be it social, economical, professional, intellectual, artistic, educational, scientific (errors are a condition for any learning process; Edison made 3000 mistakes before his bulb cast light for the first time.).

One doesn't have to believe in this nonsense to have a right to talk about it, and, yes, throw it in the waste bin of human absurdities. And, Brambleton, if you are so happy to see so many wonderful men hug each other - watch out for the trap you have set for others :)!

PaganPlace,

Why is it a pity that I said it is an inside joke? I understood, I laughed.

Yes, I have heard Lep and Wiccan say good things about the Lord I believe in. I don't remember hearing this from you.

If I had known where to go to tell someone about my outrage about Falwell & Co after his comments, I would have done so. But it would have fallen on deaf ears. I don't enjoy trying to converse with brick walls.

Arminius and Paganplace!

Good to see you two ladies talking with one another again, and good to see:

Terra Gazelle, Wiccan and Lepidopteryx

A pleasure see all of you in full swing here. I would think twice if I ever want to get into an argument, any argument, with any of you here:)

Best regards as ever

J :)

Pagan,

-- "Funny how some Christians hang all their hopes on the idea that only belief in a particular God will 'save' them . . ."

It's not "some" Christians. All believers in the various branches of Christianity believe this.

-- ". . . then try to scare others with the idea of an 'unpleasant surprise' if what *they* believe is not so."

I'm puzzled by this. If someone does not believe in Heaven or Hell, why would the talk of such things elicit fear? In their world, it doesn't exist. I could have easily substituted the boogeyman or peter rabbit, and for the lost, the meaning would stay the same.

The bottom line is that you can laugh, belittle, poke fun, ridicule, and blame Christianity for all the ills of this world. I have seen the power of Christ. I see Christian men greet each other regularly with a hug and hold each other accountable for their sins - something I rarely, if ever, see with my non-Christian friends.

Pity it's an 'inside joke' to Pagans, Arminius.

You know many of us actually hold a lot of what your Jesus said in high esteem?

Too often, you take things so deadly-serious that you don't see the meaning of the jibes.

As people.

Falwell's blaming us for 9/11 wasn't quite as rankling as... Most 'moderate' Christians *not* speaking up to say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's *wrong!*" ...only to say to anyone who got pissed at the accusations, gay or Pagan or liberal or feminist, "You're being anti-Christian!"

For saying... "Umm.... We're not responsible for 9/11, in fact, a lot of us breathed the dust and tried to help people."

Lep,

Oh, save me! An inside Pagan joke!!! Gotta admit it got a chuckle outta me.

Seriously, when I read about that comment by Falwell, I was furious. If I had been in reach of him at that moment, I would still be in jail now. What he said was completely and totally opposed to what Jesus taught.

Heh. Funny how some Christians hang all their hopes on the idea that only belief in a particular God will 'save' them, then try to scare others with the idea of an 'unpleasant surprise' if what *they* believe is not so.

Really, we Pagans figure it's *you* guys staking it all on some *very* long odds with stakes higher than even *you* can really conceive of. Which may be why you're so very *fixated* on death as a carrot or stick for everything.

What if "God" does *not* have a dice table set up?

What if the condition and dispoition of souls is *not* about 'staking it all' on a book or belief or an ideology of interpretation thereof?

What if like is like life?

What *if* it's about cause and effect and being able to *adapt* to the unexpected?

If the Universe wants to throw me in an eternal toaster cause I didn't believe in my little brain some things I find are told to me by people who are usually wrong and have demonstrable ulterior motives...

Well, that's an astronomically-remote possibility I couldn't do a darn thing about, anyway.

Certainly not a threat scary enough to make me hurt people out of fear of it.

For me, certainly, the fact that I have memories of other lives that I verified to my own exacting satisfaction as carrying good information, (sorry, the fact that I found where the information is verified means I can't prove that's not where I got it in the first place) ...says that the 'You'll be sorry when you die' threats are particularly-unfounded.

Occam's razor in fact indicates that it'd be a remarkable phenomenon indeed to expect that my ultimate spiritual consciousness without the brain I'm living in now.... is the same as the contents of this brain. This would make brains redundant.

From this, it can't follow that what I think in this brain is of prime importance.

Maybe, it's *how I use it.*

Maybe, "Do I use this to *work,* or do I use this to *gamble,* is of more importance than how hard I cleave to interpretations of belief.

Maybe... I'm not *scared* of your Hells, because I know where those fears come from.

Maybe, because from experience, I don't believe that you can't put spirit in a box made of mortal thoughts. Maybe, having died, I say that the things you find important in your mind, aren't what are important to the soul.

Maybe, in fact...

Exactly what you are trying to control and define through belief, and forcible promulgation of belief... is something better greeted with love, courage, and soul-smarts... Ability to adapt, ....rather than a frenetic insistence that a particular belief is the talisman that controls the universe.

You say, some of you, "If you don't believe my version of this remote possibility, you'll be very sorry."

I say. If you can only believe *your* version of that remote possibility... Are you not 'sorry,' already?'

I say, the universe, ...the Divine, in fact, is much bigger than any one book.

I say that the need to believe there is 'only one true way and I happen to have it' ....does not *strengthen* the soul, or mind, or spirit.

It besieges them.

I don't say my Gods are going to damn you for not believing in Them as Gods. If that were so, I'd have been screwed lifetimes ago.

What if life... and between/after life... *isn't about* gambling. What if it's about heart, and awareness, and strength, and *trust.*

How well will *you* meet the 'unknown,' *Hey You,* when it's not like you profess to expect.

I mean, I don't know about you, but I think I know an uncommon lot about the subject, and, if it's *what I expect,*

I might be kind of disappointed. If I had my brain, that is. :)

Wiccan:

**Ever get the feeling that poor Jesus is going to get real tired of the company He has in heaven?**

My daughter and I have a running joke about when fundies come out with cracks like the one that Jerry Falwell made about 9/11 being casued by America's tolerance of gays, Pagans, feminists, etc.

"Can't you just see Jesus telling Jehovah, "Dad, I SWEAR that is NOT what I said to them! So help me Me!

Terra-

If there was a good reason NOT to go to "Heaven", don't you think that meeting Canyon and HEYYOU there would be it? Ever get the feeling that poor Jesus is going to get real tired of the company He has in heaven? See you in the Summerland!

HeyYou:

Yes, I am here. I do have other matters to attend to at the moment. But I will give you what you want.
I am not a homosexual. I am a married man of 9 years with 3 children. I just choose to accept people for who they are and what they want to do. I don't judge, and I don't think it kind to try and force anything on anyone.

I'll debate with anyone about religion and its validity. My problem is the people who think that they know what's best for others. I sure as heck don't know what's best. I don't want to lead people, I don't want to convert anyone. I could care less about what you believe, but I do care how those beliefs affect your intelligence. And yes, strong beliefs can turn a genius into a dolt.

And I will say this: IT IS NOT IMMORAL TO BE HOMOSEXUAL. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it should be stricken from the record. But wait, God and Jesus believe homosexuality is wrong also........WRONG! A less than well educated homophobe thought it was wrong and wrote it down so other even less educated people would believe it.

I have read the Bible, I am working on the Koran, and the Lotus Sutra. What I find in the Koran as well as in the Bible is nothing more than fiction and rules handed down by men who do not know how to lead. Sure, there is inspiration, but overall, it is a book filled with stories. Stories that are far from original, and ideas that are plagiarized more than a College test.

Brambleton:

No anger here. None whatsoever. I have the Zoloft to thank for that. ;)

Terra, I have said all along, "eat, drink and be merry!" For when you die comes judgement and then call on those gods and see if they answer you. Call on your fellow wiccans and see if they come to your aid. You don't think there will be a judgement? You cannot use the excuse you weren't warned. I am not surprised you are only concerned with things of this earth. Even your moniker betrays you. But even as smart as you think you are and others label you, if you continue down this path YOU WILL die without wisdom and then who will lead you to the other side?

Russel D are you there? HeyYOU says the annonymous post above is to you.

Hey You...

One good thing about being on line, when some idiot tells you to sit down and shut up...and thinks by shouting it you will obey...you can make all kind of rude gestures, even blow some raseberries.

...really watch your blood pressure. Being a Heathen is not all bad...about as bad for me as you being Christian is to you. So lighten up big guy.

Look up and whistle...you can not be angry and do that.

terra

Russell D.: You're attacking people you don't like and probably don't understand.

RD: Right off the bat you assume. Shame on you.
If you read the posts you'll see I have consistantly said I DO NOT CARE IF A PERSON IS A HOMOSEXUAL OR NOT. Just please don't tell me its not immoral being a homosexual.

Russell D.: I'd say your first step is to talk to and listen to people. You'd gain a much better perspective.

No what your saying is I'll agree with you and your lifestyle. See above. But your also saying moral issues are not black and white. Let me bring you back from the brink for a moment: THEY ARE! There is a right and a wrong. Now as a Christian I will NOT impose my lifestyle on you any more than you could impose your lifestyle on me or mine. As far as my lifestyle YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN and only God can accomplish that wonderful feat. Your lifestyle is a choice that can be taught and untaught. I can no more NOT be a Christian than I can stop breathing God's breath and continue to live. YOU on the otherhand choose to be a homosexual and teach others that its ok when in fact it is NOT. Will you live a full life? Maybe. But God is waiting for you teacher and you'll have to answer for how many you have led astray to The Lie.

Russell D.: It's people like you that give others a bad name.

Mysterious others. You mean those in religion like the lying author this WP page? No help was needed from me!

Russell D.:And you know how stupid she was.

Silly movie for bored very bored human beings. Didn't, no strike that, couldn't watch the whole thing.

HeyYOU:
Terra, biblically speaking you are a fool. Your so called wisdom is foolishness and anyone who follows you will eventually turn into a babbler. Since your father is the devil even the beast of the field looks down on you. Lepi, your babbling.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You talk about the devil. Then you call yourself a monotheist, when you give your devil power, you see it as another god. Specially when it seems to have power over your Creator God.

Me...I don't believe in the devil...and it for sure is not my daddy. I must say though you have less imagination then the inquisition...they said we kissed the devil's arse when it was in the guise of a goat. I wonder if they have ever smelled an old billy goat?? peeee uuueewwww!

Wiccans do not have a devil to blame things on...all we have is our own responcibility for our own actions. We have gods that work with us to do good....but bad is on us to face up to.

As far as the beasts of the field??? well all the beasts I know are fairly happy with me. I feed my horses, chickens,guineas, cats, dogs and even broadcast corn out to the deer at dawn and dusk with an automatic broadcaster..and do not allow any hunting. They are well taken care of and except for the horses can come and go as they choose...and they choose to stay.

I think my gods approve of me...if they didn't I believe I would not be as happy as I am. In fact with the amount of hate you have in you...I would say you are one unhappy camper...or maybe it might do you good to go camping. Get with those beasts of the field and meet yourself.
terra

Russ,

Where does all the anger come from?

And I've said this before in other threads, the whole gay marriage issue is not a result of Christian fundamentalism. The majority of states in this country oppose gay marriage by a wide margin. A WIDE margin. Period.

And please don't trot out names like Reverend Haggard as some sort of generalization about all Christians. That is completely absurd. I guess Mike Vick's conduct is typical of black males?

And I'm guessing that there is some confusion in regards to Christian hypocrisy. DC Talk, a Christian rock band, spoke these words, "the single greatest cause of atheism in the world today is Christians. Who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and deny Him by their lifestyle." That's probably true. But remember this: Just like any other man, no Christian is perfect. So the focus is not "Did the man lie?"; but instead, "Did he lie, admit his failure, ask Jesus for forgiveness, and is earnestly seeking not to succomb to his failure again?"

Rich blessings.

LDS Mark:

So Jesus said it? Are you sure? I mean, the Bible wasn't even being written when Jesus was alive. It is all hearsay.

And you believe in Jesus then, I take it? So do you follow the other laws? Like, oh.....not cutting your hair, not eating shellfish, not wearing clothes with mixed fabric, stoning your kids for being rude.

Most people would say that those are stupids rules. I agree. So I guess if I shave my head tomorrow, I am committing a crime against God. And I looooove shellfish. And I have plenty of rocks to throw at my kids.

But you're right, being gay is bad. But I guess so are you if you go by any of the above rules.
Being gay is not an affliction. It is natural. Just talk to a gay man or woman. Find out who they are instead of judging them on the spot.

And you know what they say....it's always the ones who are most outspoken against something that are also the ones doing it behind closed doors.

Just look at your buddy Rev. Haggard.

And if you say he wasn't being a true Christian.........for shame. Christianity has always been about hypocrisy. Learn it, and know it.

RUSSELL D.:
Sorry for the capitalization, something happened in the copy & paste again.

YOU SAID:
“DON'T PUT WORDS INTO JESUS' MOUTH.”

EXCUSE ME?
WHEN A PROPHET GIVES REVELATIONS, AS IN LEVITICUS 18:22, THE REVELATION CAME FROM JESUS, NOT THE PROPHET.

I AM NOT PUTTING WORDS IN JESUS’ MOUTH, I AM TRYING TO ENLIGHTEN YOU TO THE TRUTH OF JESUS’ LAWS AND TEACHINGS.

WITHER HE SAID IT THROUGH A PROPHET, OR IN PERSON, IT HAS THE SAME VALIDITY.

SAME SEX ENCOUNTERS ARE AN ABOMINATION IN HIS EYES. WE NEED TO CARE FOR AND HELP THOSE WITH THAT AFFLICTION, NOT ENCOURAGE IT.

JOHN 3:16 "WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH..."

THE WORD "BELIEVETH" CARRYS A LOT OF WEIGHT. IF YOU BELIEVE IN HIM YOU FOLLOW HIS LAWS, ALL OF THEM.
DON'T PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH OF JESUS' LAWS YOU WILL FOLLOW AND WHICH YOU WILL NOT.

IT IS THE DEVIL’S INFLUENCE TO DO SO.

MARK

Wiccan,

Got it now, thanks. Nicely done!

Susan: Well sure, there is anatomy involved that has a particular purpose, but it need not be the only purpose. A few questions to consider:

Why do post-menopausal women continue to have sex?

Why do dominant female dogs engage in male-like "humping" behavior?

Why do bonobos (a species of chimp) regularly engage in hetero- and homo- sexual behavior with fellow group members?

The short answer is that sexual behavior can serve as more than just a means to procreate. It is also a form of expression, both for bonding and dominating, depending on the context. That does not make the ancillary behavioral functions unnatural, just different from the primary purpose.

Arminius-

The second part of the statement implies that the bigot KNOWS he is right, and that the only reason God would disagree with the bigot is that God doesn't have all the facts.

Hey, Wiccan,

You said, "Canyon always reminded of the definition of a bigot: someone who knows God would feel exactly like him if only God had all the facts. :-)

Yup, the benighted Canyon is a textbook example of a bigot.

I'm not exactly sure what to make of the second part of your statement.....?

Brambleton:

False truth is bull, whether you believe in it or not.

HeyYou:

Of course I am somebody. Bring it. You're attacking people you don't like and probably don't understand. I'd say your first step is to talk to and listen to people. You'd gain a much better perspective. It's people like you that give others a bad name.

You sound like the mom from Waterboy. Everything is the Devil! And you know how stupid she was.

Panel members addressing this topic seem wrapped in a fallacy. To compare the gay sexuality question (natural vs unnatural) to slavery, women's ordination, or length of hair ignores the glaring fact that none of those three issues have anything to do with biology. Sexual relations have everything to do with biology: there is a life-dispensing organ on the male; there is a life-receiving/nurturing organ in the female. The two are designed to merge and procreate a new life. How can gay union accomplish this feat? One may say, "I care not if the feat be accomplished." But one may not say that nature is uninvolved.

Arminius-

Canyon always reminded of the definition of a bigot: someone who knows God would feel exactly like him if only God had all the facts. :-)

Wiccan,

I missed your post on I Corinthians to Canyon. No surprise on the non-result.

HEYYOU-

You do know that the medications won't work if you don't take them every day? Just asking...

Have a nice day. Now move along and stop lying to people. If thats possible for you. THATS your goal for today ok? But don't come back and tell me your progress I really don't care.

Arminius, I used that exact verse when trying to reason with Canyon Shearer. Didn't work on him either.

"HeyYOU:
Wiccan, your minded is so abnormal because of your dessent into the unnatural that you would even pervert the very words you dispise! For you to implie that those words from the Bible can even in the wildest instance be sexual in nature is disgusting to say the least and totally in line with whats intellectually wrong with the homosexual mindest."

HEYYOU- My only comment was your attempt to equate volume with reason. Arminius quoted Corinthians, not I. Perhaps you should not be so hasty. Please believe me, I see no reason to get into a pissing match with a skunk. Blessed Be.

Russel D, so what, are you supposed to be somebody? What do you have to say for yourself?

And I would suggest Randall Balmer it was no coincidence you joined THAT particular group. They were obviously at the same spirtual level as you. All heading for the same horrible ditch. The only difference is you choose not to judge those hurtling to the horrible ditch with you.
I reference the story in the bible where God asks, "Who will go and be a decieving influence on those destined to hell?" And the devil, that great deceiver said, "Here I am send me..."

Wiccan, your minded is so abnormal because of your dessent into the unnatural that you would even pervert the very words you dispise! For you to implie that those words from the Bible can even in the wildest instance be sexual in nature is disgusting to say the least and totally in line with whats intellectually wrong with the homosexual mindest. But that is totally appropriate for you and homosexuals who try to justify their immoral behavior is to wildly warp EVERYTHING you touch. I have already said I could care less if you practice homosexuality and I could really care less BUT PLEASE DO NOT TRY TO MAKE IT NORMAL! I will say to you the same thing the Apostle Paul would have said 2000 years ago, "move along, eat drink and be merry, know for certain judgement is comming and the God of wrath (in the case of unbelievers) is waiting. Romans 9.22ff

The shouting by Hey You! is the greatest example of how wrong he is, and how secretly gay he is. Furthermore, because he cannot distinguish between homosexuality, beastiality, and pedophilia...keep your kids and pets away from him too!

Brambleton, you said to Russ:

Some things are true whether you believe in them or not.

I agree with that. But in order to defend it, you have to define 'truth'. Which of course brings us to Pilate's famous take on that. And opens a really big can of worms. I speak from experience - I've opened that can on these groups, and, hoo boy, what a mess.

Wiccan: you said,

It would appear that what HEYYOU lacks in reason he makes up for in volume.

Please forgive me when I quote the Bible in defense of what you said:

"If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal."
- I Corinthians v.1

heyyou is the ultimate example of the clashing cymbal. Noise but no love. Positively Shakespearian, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Yista has got it right[mostly].
If you wish to be a christian, you have to follow the bible.
The new testament , is on the whole, pretty consistent. Follow the rule book, or find another game to play.
Perhaps just try and be happy, and aim to make other people happy.
Leave those with the need to believe in "GOD" to worry about " their just and terrible reward".

Russ,

Some things are true whether you believe in them or not.

Brambleton:

What good is the argument if the source is of no real use?

Russ,

Quoting from the Bible is not "pointless" when used to counter claims made for or against it. The panelist created a hypothesis based on Biblical scripture. It would seem fairly obvious that the counter argument be supported by Biblical scripture as well.

It would appear that what HEYYOU lacks in reason he makes up for in volume.

I bet Senator Larry Craig claims to be a Christian!

referring to Heyyou, how can anybody write:

"Since your father is the devil even the beast of the field looks down on you"

without sitting in an insane asylum. Well, they have internet access there too...

Religion has brought the human mind into an abyss of ignorance, bigotry, stupidity, aggression, hatred.

I certainly don't believe in God or Jesus for any sort of redemption or what not, but he probably had something else in mind than such a mental decay of his "followers" in his sermon of the mountain.

HeyYou:

Would you mind being quiet for awhile? People are trying to have an intelligent conversation.

Otherwise, bring it on to me, I'll have a go at you. I love intolerant people. They make me laugh.

And Yista:

Quoting the Bible is pointless. All it shows is that you know how to copy something down. Think for yourself man.

HeyYou,

You're starting to sound like the MIA Frank Collins.

"Jesus himself said nothing about the matter, although he did affirm the Levitical proscriptions (which also, by the way, include prohibitions against the interbreeding of livestock and wearing garments made of two different kinds of fabric)."

Jesus DID speak against homosexuality, and every other kind of sexual SIN, by pointing to one man-one woman heterosexual marriage as the ONLY avenue for sexual intercourse that God approves of and judges as sanctified.

Christ affirmed the one husband-one wife ideal when the issue of divorce was put to him (Matthew 19:3-6). He reminded his interrogators that this was God's plan for the human race: "Have you not read, that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female' and said 'For this reason [marriage] a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

The Old Testament contains ritual and ceremonial laws that pertained specifically to the Hebrew nation, certain regulations regarding hygiene, all within an overarching umbrella of moral law codified most succinctly in the Ten Commandments. Jesus came to fulfill the ritual and ceremonial laws AND amplify the moral law.

After His crucifixion the ritual and ceremonial obesrvances were no longer necessary. That to which they pointed was fulfilled in his death and resurrection. And He was now the bridge to God not only for the Hebrews, but for all humankind. He did not abolish the Moral Law, but brought to it the dimension of mercy. Forgiveness of sin was now available to anyone willing to repent, turn from their ungodly ways, sin no more, and follow Jesus.

"If you hold to my teachings and keep my commandments," Christ tells us in John 8:31-32, "then you are truly my disciples. And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

No one can claim to be a Bible-believing Christian and yet continue violating the most basic of what Christ requires as standards for holy and pure living. Such individuals are only fooling themselves, and will certainly reap what Scripture promises is their just and terrible reward.

"Jesus himself said nothing about the matter, although he did affirm the Levitical proscriptions (which also, by the way, include prohibitions against the interbreeding of livestock and wearing garments made of two different kinds of fabric)."

Jesus DID speak against homosexuality, and every other kind of sexual SIN, by pointing to one man-one woman heterosexual marriage as the ONLY avenue for sexual intercourse that God approves of and judges as sanctified.

Christ affirmed the one husband-one wife ideal when the issue of divorce was put to him (Matthew 19:3-6). He reminded his interrogators that this was God's plan for the human race: "Have you not read, that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female' and said 'For this reason [marriage] a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

The Old Testament contains ritual and ceremonial laws that pertained specifically to the Hebrew nation, certain regulations regarding hygiene, all within an overarching umbrella of moral law codified most succinctly in the Ten Commandments. Jesus came to fulfill the ritual and ceremonial laws AND amplify the moral law.

After His crucifixion the ritual and ceremonial obesrvances were no longer necessary. That to which they pointed was fulfilled in his death and resurrection. And He was now the bridge to God not only for the Hebrews, but for all humankind. He did not abolish the Moral Law, but brought to it the dimension of mercy. Forgiveness of sin was now available to anyone who willing to repent, sin no more, and follow Jesus.

"If you hold to my teachings and keep my commandments," Christ tells us in John 8:31-32, "then you are truly my disciples. And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

No one can claim to be a Bible-believing Christian and yet continue violating the most basic of what Christ requires as standards for holy and pure living. Such individuals are only fooling themselves and will certainly reap what Scripture promises is their just and terrible reward.

"Jesus himself said nothing about the matter, although he did affirm the Levitical proscriptions (which also, by the way, include prohibitions against the interbreeding of livestock and wearing garments made of two different kinds of fabric)."

Jesus DID speak against homosexuality, and every other kind of sexual SIN, by pointing to one man-one woman heterosexual marriage as the ONLY avenue for sexual intercourse that God approves of and judges as sanctified.

Christ affirmed the one husband-one wife ideal when the issue of divorce was put to him (Matthew 19:3-6). He reminded his interrogators that this was God's plan for the human race: "Have you not read, that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female' and said 'For this reason [marriage] a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

The Old Testament contains ritual and ceremonial laws that pertained specifically to the Hebrew nation, certain regulations regarding hygiene, all within an overarching umbrella of moral law codified most succinctly in the Ten Commandments. Jesus came to fulfill the ritual and ceremonial laws AND amplify the moral law.

After His crucifixion the ritual and ceremonial obesrvances were no longer necessary. That to which they pointed was fulfilled in his death and resurrection. And He was now the bridge to God not only for the Hebrews, but for all humankind. He did not abolish the Moral Law, but brought to it the dimension of mercy. Forgiveness of sin was now available to anyone who willing to repent, sin no more, and follow Jesus.

"If you hold to my teachings and keep my commandments," Christ tells us in John 8:31-32, "then you are truly my disciples. And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

No one can claim to be a Bible-believing Christian and yet continue violating the most basic of what Christ requires as standards for holy and pure living. Such individuals are only fooling themselves and will certainly reap what Scripture promises is their just and terrible reward.

"Jesus himself said nothing about the matter, although he did affirm the Levitical proscriptions (which also, by the way, include prohibitions against the interbreeding of livestock and wearing garments made of two different kinds of fabric)."

Jesus DID speak against homosexuality, and every other kind of sexual SIN, by pointing to one man-one woman heterosexual marriage as the ONLY avenue for sexual intercourse that God approves of and judges as sanctified.

Christ affirmed the one husband-one wife ideal when the issue of divorce was put to him (Matthew 19:3-6). He reminded his interrogators that this was God's plan for the human race: "Have you not read, that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female' and said 'For this reason [marriage] a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

The Old Testament contains ritual and ceremonial laws that pertained specifically to the Hebrew nation, certain regulations regarding hygiene, all within an overarching umbrella of moral law codified most succinctly in the Ten Commandments. Jesus came to fulfill the ritual and ceremonial laws AND amplify the moral law.

After His crucifixion the ritual and ceremonial obesrvances were no longer necessary. That to which they pointed was fulfilled in his death and resurrection. And He was now the bridge to God not only for the Hebrews, but for all humankind. He did not abolish the Moral Law, but brought to it the dimension of mercy. Forgiveness of sin was now available to anyone who willing to repent, sin no more, and follow Jesus.

"If you hold to my teachings and keep my commandments," Christ tells us in John 8:31-32, "then you are truly my disciples. And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

No one can claim to be a Bible-believing Christian and yet continue violating the most basic of what Christ requires as standards for holy and pure living. Such individuals are only fooling themselves and will reap what Scripture promises is their terrible reward.

How the HEATHEN consider moral issues to be in that grey area. Let me bring you back from the brink to tell you moral issues are black and white. Really, I could care less if Randall Balmer or anyone else on this site or any who reads it are gay BUT PLEASE DO NOT TELL ME ITS NOT IMMORAL! If you do then an adulterer is not immoral or a child molester is not immoral ect ect. SO SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN.

Terra Gazelle & The Moderate - I really enjoyed your stories and your answer to Papagorgio. I teach Relligious Education at a small Unitarian Universalist church. We are embarking on a course of social justice this coming year and your comments gave me (along with Papagorgio's original parable) much to think about. Papagorgio's tree perhaps may be green for awhile but it will not provide shade for everyone. Perhaps it should not, that is his Bible teaching. What I liked most about your stories is the inclusiveness.

Papagorgio dwells in the land of exclusiveness. He clings to the idea that all homosexuals have an agenda - they are in your living room folks - they are in your schools and they are actively recruiting your kids to be gay - (And that rhymes with T and starts with P and stands for pool....) What he does not understand is that the devil is not in books, or movies or even in homosexual behavior - it is in your heart and your mind. That homosexuals are just trying like everyone else to live their lives and have the same basic things as everyone else. They do not want privileges that anyone else does not have - they want the same rights as everyone else.

Thanks for your insights.

Terra, biblically speaking you are a fool. Your so called wisdom is foolishness and anyone who follows you will eventually turn into a babbler. Since your father is the devil even the beast of the field looks down on you. Lepi, your babbling.

Sodom

Sodom

The bible says homosexuality is an abomination. Hmmm. I wonder if "abomination" is another word for "sin"? Let's see.... Webster's Dictionary says it means "something that elicits great dislike". It dosn't say "sin"! Wow! My priest wears the ugliest stole I've ever seen. I'd say it was an abomination! I think I should have him removed from the pulpit! The bible does not say that homosexuality is a sin. It says that in some cultures it may be unappealing. It is also unappealing in some cultures to lick your plate. In other cultures it is taken as a compliment to your hostess because it is a sign that you really enjoyed her cooking. Come on people, grow up! The bible is really specific when it comes to saying what is actual sin. If being gay were a sin, Moses would have carved it on a stone. Thank you Mr Balmer, for your comments. I am an Episcopalian, and am very proud of the stand many of the Episcopal Churches are taking on this issue,even though I believe it is a non-issue, I think it must be addressed because I cannot see how the church can continue a policy of discrimination. We are in the business of love.

Dear Papagorgio:

There is wisdom in your parable about loving one another, care for the poor, and sexual temperance in “The Parable of the Christian Tree....”. In the same spirit I would add:

Indeed, some gays and and some who fancied themselves liberals did curse the tree, and still do. This is because they fear it are are obsessed with things sexual and fear anyone different from themselves.

Some of these longed to destroy the tree, but found it tougher to cut than they had expected.

But others came to the tree saying:

“We wish to live under the shade of your branches and be married to our loving partners. We promise to love, honor, and cherish them as you have commanded. Will you spread your branches to cover us?”

But the people already under the protection of the tree were frightened that the branches could not grow to shelter this larger community, and they were frightened that the tree would die trying to grow in this way.

But the tree said, “Why do you persecute these others in my name?”

They knew not how to answer this.

And they wonder about it, and discuss it to this day.

Perhaps when they find the branches that teach justice, freedom, and peace they will find a way.

Straightjack,
Love your story about the rotten branch.

very good...
terra

lepi,
You betya!
I love to be called a person of the Earth...us and Mama.
```````
Its said there are invisible threads of energy binding all the shamans of the world to one another.... and something connects each of us as well: the empaths and sensitives who dwell on the edge, who hear the calling, and keep the pledge. Practitioners of authenticity and wholeness, reinhabiting sacred self and sacred land. Seekers of significance and purpose, the last to give up the ancient ways, and the first to explore the new.

Those it's said may cry too hard, or laugh too loud.... that dare to care, so much! Each an integral component, of a lineage of place holders: unbridled children and wizened elders, willful wilders, wiccans and wizards on whose souls rest the responsibility to invoke a new/old Earth, an Earth once again green and growing, dynamic and diverse, feral and free. Our shared ministry is this most insistent calling. And our liturgy.... is our love.

exerpt from Enchanted Loom by Jesse Wolf Hardin

terra

papagorgio,

Here is a favorite little story of mine... you gave us the tree...let me give you a string of pearls.

The Master
Many centuries ago there lived a woman who was a great spiritual teacher. She drew many students who wished to learn what she revealed. They formed a group of devoted disciples. After many years of study the disciples left and journeyed to other lands, hopeing to spread the teachings they had learned.
The years went by and one day the disciples returned qnd sought out their old teacher. Once they found her, the disciples posed a question to the Master. "We have", their spokesperson said," traveled to many lands, and discovered many different teachings that are unlike the ways you have taught us." The master calmly nodded in acknowledgement, and the disciple continued,"Therefore we are confused, so can you tell us what is the true religion?"
The master looked up with a patient smile and replied," All of the religions of the world are like individual pearls. Each of them formed from a different grain of sand, in different waters, under different conditions." Then the Master looked directly at the spokesperson and spoke softly. saying," But if you ask me which is the true pearl, I will tell you none are the one true pearl, the truth is the thread that runs through each pearl holding them together as a necklace, and that is the truth you seek."
Place a raw crystal in front of you...see what that crystal looks like on one side, then turn the crystal and pay attention to what the new side looks like. Look at all sides of that one crystal...it is one thing made of many facets... each side different but making a whole.

anon

Terra,

I just take it as a compliment when someone calls me a heathen...
:D

Hey You!
Anyone ever tell you what heathen means? I take it you think it means Godless or some such falderol. Sorry to burst your bubble..
It means People of the Heather (country people). As Pagan comes from Pagani(Latin)...People of the Earth...(country people). Heathens are northern Pagans...

and neither means godless.

We heathens might use info from the OT...but too many Christians get their info from Jack Chick's tracts.

terra

A very nice essay, Professor Balmer.

All religious organizations would take a great leap forward toward peace, harmony, and enlightenment if they simply adopted The Ham Sandwich Principle in relation to gay issues.

The Principle is this:

Spend no more time debating or being concerned with gay issues than you do debating and worrying about what should be done with clergy and parishioners who eat ham sandwiches.

Eating ham sandwiches - or being gay - or having gay sex - have the same cosmic significance: none to not much.

Act on that Principle and you'll be closer to attaining Salvation.

PRIVER:

**this 'planet', and not just one building, is my church; and for me the Divine is not limited to any one book.**

Bingo.

Anon:

I agree with you. I'm not sure it's just limited to Protestants, though. It seems to be in a lot of the monotheistic branches, and not just Christianity either. Which is a real shame because there is a lot of beauty in what the religions and those who follow them 'could' be.

My experiences as a Pagan are similar to Lep's and what I've learned is that it's ok to be a whole person with needs and desires and that I'm going to screw up, but to learn how to deal with what comes out of it. That our most instinctive human nature is not something to be feared, but to be truly understood. And celebrated.

The only real difference,I would say is that this 'planet', and not just one building, is my church; and for me the Divine is not limited to any one book.

Namaste.

I think that the whole let's-be-tolerant-of-homosexuals decision has its roots in the same mindset that the conservative types had in Balmer's cautionary tale. It's the church's attempt to retain control, or influence anyway, over its congregation by becoming "more relevant" to them. The conservative types were looking for the same control, except they were using fear-mongering instead. Same PR mindset, different target audiences.

I suspect that the "liberals" are playing a losing game, because the assumptions they are making only work for "conservatives." Both sides are working from the same assumption - that it's the "words" you preach that matter. That's probably true for conservative congregations, who are totally fixated on the "words," but I think misses the point entirely when it comes to liberal congregations.

Are liberal types finding their churches increasingly irrelevant? You bet, but the problem isn't "words." It's how "church" is currently defined. In the current era it seems to be something along the line of "a place you get preached at." This works just fine for conservatives because they think that all you have to do is mindlessly mouth "the words" and, boom!, you get into heaven. They have reduced salvation to little more than a game of "Simon Says."

But I think that liberals want to internalize it a bit more than that. They know that words are cheap, and that the people spouting them are just as flawed as anyone else, and that the "Simon Says" game is just too easy to believe. They realize that, it's whats going on inside that matters and that, in the end, everyone has to "save" himself.

So I say, dump the "preaching" mindset and make "church" a place conducive to the true process of salvation: introspection and painful self analysis, and deciding just what your conscience is willing to bear. Forget saving other people, the best you can do is offer human comfort and a good example.

Unfortunately, this is a hard path. And most protestants are far too repressed to do this sort of thing in public anyway. But this doesn't mean that they don't want the same feeling of spiritual awakening that Lepidopteryx found.

Parable Part 2:

Another branch taught the proper submission of women.

But this was a diseased branch, weakened by the poisen of a male dominated society, kept from falling by the backs of generations of choiceless women held in place by power fixated males. Finally, enough women moved to the shade of the branch of love and compassion or the neighboring fields full of sunshine and butterflies (wink wink leo), and the branch fell away from the tree as natural growth will do for an organic entity that has a rotted limb.

And the modern man approached the tree, and cried to god, why o why did you let this branch fall. Then turning in acceptance to evolving society he trudges to his abode, for it was his night on the schedule to make dinner for the family.

MarcS:

Regardless of whatever path you choose, it's voices like yours that give me hope for real renewed relations between Christians and Pagans. It doesn't have to be one versus the other as is often found. I wish that more Christians out there could be as open minded. Maybe there are, and time will bear them out. Who knows? Anyway, Thanks for that. :)

The Parable of the Christian Tree....

There once was a 2,000 year old tree which gathered 5,000 year old Jewish earth to its roots.

It had many branches as trees do have. It had branches that provided shade to the people. For the sun could burn the people so. t was constant. It did not move. It was a tree after all.

One branch taught the people to love each other.

Another branch told the people to store treasures in heaven.

Another branch taught about poverty.

Still another taught about sexual love.

One day liberals and gays came up to the 2,000 year old tree. They accused the tree of attacking their sex lives.

They began to cut at its ancient branch of sexual ethics. No longer would future generations of Christian children be able to enjoy the shade and wisdom of this branch.

And so the tree replied to the liberals: "Can you not see I am a tree and have always been here. Why have you come to cut down my branch?"

And the gays said to the tree: curse you tree, for you are obsessed with things sexual!

And the wicked men did not realize that they had come to the tree.

I mean, hey, maybe you could go back and say why my ancestors in America shouldn't have civil rights, because of how wrong you feel it is to be drunken, lazy, rebellious, disease-ridden, and promiscuous.

Cause that's what it meant to some Christians when others were...

Irish.

Or, how wrong it is to be vengeful, violent, knife-wielding criminals...

Cause that's what it meant to some Christians when others were...

Italian.

How about talking how awful and 'absolutely objectively sinful it is to participate in usury, be disease-ridden and subversive, with subtle anti-Christian agendas?

Cause that's what it meant to some Christians when others were... Jewish.

How about how nasty it is to be 'primitive,' violent, drunken, licentious, disease-bearing, and cognitively-inferior?

Cause that's what it meant to some Christians when others were...

Any aboriginal or 'Oriental' people.

Objectivity?

You're quoting books to justify the same old crap.

And on this, HeyYou:

"The next thing you will be telling me is its all relative. The only objectivity is from YOUR perspective..."

Actually, objectivity says there are no privileged perspectives.

You are in fact claiming *your* view is 'absolute and objective' to defend your idea you should claim command over others, when in fact, your perspective... does not hold outside your perspective.

So... You claim people are saying, 'Only my view is valid,' but that's actually what *you* bring.

You don't see anything but your demands to say you know all... and see every perspective of reality or common experience as merely a rival claim of equal irrationality to yours.

Sounds like it's once again time to challenge you to take your 'absolute right' perspective and tell me exactly what kind of life your 'absolute law' tells you I live.

Really. So you could observe it.

"Hey you"

"Another absurd tactic of heathens is to use the words of the Old Testament as if it proves their point."

Actually, backatcha.

Especially when your post was followed by a Christian saying, 'It's all the same thing,' ...at least when being anti-gay.

We sure do seem to get all caught up in absolutely meaningless drival, if that is even a word, when Jesus whether you believe in Him or not said, "LOVE". Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Randall Balmer is living in a different world. The bible has MANY passages summing to prohibit homo-sex.

Get real, Gays are pushing the issue not Christians.

Lepidopteryx: Your quote...
"I grew up hearing the word Pagan as a synonym for demonic, evil, etc. It was not until I was in my thirties that I actually realized that I had been mislead, that Paganism was not evil, and that I had, in fact, been Pagan for years."

I believe that we have the Christian's to blame for that major misconception about what Pagan really is. Hollywood just made it worse. (anything new there??) I was raised in a very Bible thumping, guilt driving, church. Fortunatley, my brief association with a Unitarian Universalist congregation opened my eyes and allowed me to see the binders that I was wearing (along with my wonderful wife) While I still associate with a Christian church, it's comfortable and I have good friend there, I'm searching outside that context for a purer spirituality. Something untarnished by all the distortions and power plays that the Christian church's history has produced. Maybe Pagan is the way to go. I'll keep searching.

I like that. Thank you for sharing. I gather you're into butterflies. I've had much more interest in the Pagan world since I read "The Jesus Mysteries" (Freke and Gandy). Sorry you're having to deal with the likes of HeyYou. He/She is the epitomy of narrowminded ignorance. I'd recommend that book to HeyYou, but I'm certain that instead of reading and contemplating it, he/she would burn it.

Marcs:

Lepidopteryx is a hybridization of Lepidoptera (butterflies and moths) and phoenix. I spell it with a "y" because I like it that way.

After a very nasty divorce, in which my religion (and my refusal to pretend to my ex's) was one of the issues, I went through a period of intense depression. The only thing, other than the routine of caring for my daughter and our pets, that helped was taking off my clothes and lying in the sun. One afternoon, while I was sunbathing, a frittalry landed on me and stayed for several minutes. When I came inside it dawned on me that the only thing stopping me from living the life I wanted and needed to live was me. That yellow butterfly had been my totem telling me to get about the business of my own metamorphosis. I adopted the phoenix as a second totem because of its association with renewal of life from destruction.

Thus Lepidopteryx became my spirit name.

What is a lepidopteryx? If I Google it, I only find YOU...

HEYYOU,

The only thing you are projecting is hatred and ignorance. Lep is my friend, and I take offence at your comments against her. And the worst thing is that you make no sense whatsoever. Even politicians have better 'sound bites'.

The only thing I'm projecting is the Bible. I tire of heathens like Randall Balmer and you obfascating what the Bible says and who it says it to. I think whats really going on is the complaining is symtomatic of a guilty conscience.

HeyYOU:
**The next thing you will be telling me is its all relative. The only objectivity is from YOUR perspective...**

Actually, I nver claimed to have the lock on objectivity. That's more your style. Projecting much?

The next thing you will be telling me is its all relative. The only objectivity is from YOUR perspective...

HEYYOU:

**The one your fighting is not Christians but your own affections! Your conscience is kicking your butt and your blaming anyone and everyone but your own wicked behavior.**

No darling, my conscience is quite clear, and I do not fight my affections. And just what "wicked behavior" is it that you think I'm involved in?

Once again lepidopteryx you leap to absurd conclusions. And hold you accountable?! LOL. You mock them! The one your fighting is not Christians but your own affections! Your conscience is kicking your butt and your blaming anyone and everyone but your own wicked behavior.

Arminius,
** did not know this about Specter; very, very interesting. Suffice it to say that my respect for rabbis, already pretty high, went up a notch. And my respect for politicians continues to fall like a stone.**

I second that emotion.

Rabbi Waskow,

I did not know this about Specter; very, very interesting. Suffice it to say that my respect for rabbis, already pretty high, went up a notch. And my respect for politicians continues to fall like a stone.

Shalom, and God bless!

One of the profound problems of our religious traditions (all the Abrahamic ones) is that till recently they have tended -- some more, some less -- to disembody sexuality. Thus they turned the erotic Song of Somgs into a 'purely" asexual, "spiritual," ethereal celebration of God and Israel, or God and the world, or Christ and the Church.

Only recently have new transations of the Song into English recovered the sensuality of the Hebrew original; only recently has anyone dared suggest a woman may have written or edited it.

Imagine a movie that treated the body in the Song of Songs as graphically as "The Passion of the Christ" treated the torture of jesus. Would such a movie, though based far more literally on the sacred text than "The Passion" was on the Gospels, have been allowed on the screen?

The flip side of the fixation of (much) religious outlook on sex as impure is religious toleration of torture. This especially arises for me today in the wake of Atty-Gen Gonzales" resignation.

In December 2004, eight Philadelphia rabbis met face-to-face with Senator Arlen Specter, then about to become chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and thirteen others also signed a letter to him, to urge him to oppose confirmation of Alberto Gonzales as Attorney-General. We focused on Gonzales' support of rulings that made torture "legitimate" public policy of the United States.

Why did rabbis think it our obligation to intervene? Because the archetypal stories of the power-addicted Pharaoh and the Roman Caesars warn against the arrogance of the present government of the US – starting an unnecessary, immoral, illegal, cruel, and self-destructive war; making torture into public policy; ignoring the agonies of our earth itself as Pharaoh ignored its agonies in the "ten plagues." Later, it was no surprise they fiddled like Nero while New Orleans drowned.

Senator Specter listened to us, affably thanked us for visiting him (the first time a group of rabbis ever had, he said) -- -- and then not only voted to confirm Gonzales but praised him.

It turned out – as we had expected – that the same Gonzales mind-set that approved torture also sought total control over American politics, flinging the Constitution into the garbage can. That is what was going on in the firing of US Attorneys who would not torture the law to oust Democratic candidates for Congress and boost Republican candidates.

As these facts have unfolded during the last few months, Specter said the Justice Department would be better off without Gonzales– but has never even hinted that three years ago he made a terrible mistake.

If the Senate insists that any new nominee be clearly committed to defend the Constitution, the Geneva Conventions, and American law despite the Pharaonic pretensions of the present administration, then Gonzalaes' resignation on September 17 -- Constitution Day!! -- may signal a renewal of the Constitution.

And if the religious communities put half the energy into demanding an Atty-Gen opposed to torture as many of them will demand one opposed to the sexual ethic pf the Song of Songs, we would be seeing a profound renewal of American spiritual life.

Shalom,

Rabbi Arthur Waskow
The Shalom Center
www.shalomctr.org
6711 Lincoln Drive
Philadelphia PA 19119
215/844-8494

One of the profound problems of our religious traditions (all the Abrahamic ones) is that till recently they have tended -- some more, some less -- to disembody sexuality. Thus they turned the erotic Song of Somgs into a 'purely" asexual, "spiritual," ethereal celebration of God and Israel, or God and the world, or Christ and the Church.

Only recently have new transations of the Song into English recovered the sensuality of the Hebrew original; only recently has anyone dared suggest a woman may have written or edited it.

Imagine a movie that treated the body in the Song of Songs as graphically as "The Passion of the Christ" treated the torture of jesus. Would such a movie, though based far more literally on the sacred text than "The Passion" was on the Gospels, have been allowed on the screen?

The flip side of the fixation of (much) religious outlook on sex as impure is religious toleration of torture. This especially arises for me today in the wake of Atty-Gen Gonzales" resignation.

In December 2004, eight Philadelphia rabbis met face-to-face with Senator Arlen Specter, then about to become chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and thirteen others also signed a letter to him, to urge him to oppose confirmation of Alberto Gonzales as Attorney-General. We focused on Gonzales' support of rulings that made torture "legitimate" public policy of the United States.

Why did rabbis think it our obligation to intervene? Because the archetypal stories of the power-addicted Pharaoh and the Roman Caesars warn against the arrogance of the present government of the US – starting an unnecessary, immoral, illegal, cruel, and self-destructive war; making torture into public policy; ignoring the agonies of our earth itself as Pharaoh ignored its agonies in the "ten plagues." Later, it was no surprise they fiddled like Nero while New Orleans drowned.

Senator Specter listened to us, affably thanked us for visiting him (the first time a group of rabbis ever had, he said) -- -- and then not only voted to confirm Gonzales but praised him.

It turned out – as we had expected – that the same Gonzales mind-set that approved torture also sought total control over American politics, flinging the Constitution into the garbage can. That is what was going on in the firing of US Attorneys who would not torture the law to oust Democratic candidates for Congress and boost Republican candidates.

As these facts have unfolded during the last few months, Specter said the Justice Department would be better off without Gonzales– but has never even hinted that three years ago he made a terrible mistake.

If the Senate insists that any new nominee be clearly committed to defend the Constitution, the Geneva Conventions, and American law despite the Pharaonic pretensions of the present administration, then Gonzalaes' resignation on September 17 -- Constitution Day!! -- may signal a renewal of the Constitution.

And if the religious communities put half the energy into demanding an Atty-Gen opposed to torture as many of them will demand one opposed to the sexual ethic pf the Song of Songs, we would be seeing a profound renewal of American spiritual life.

Shalom,

Rabbi Arthur Waskow
The Shalom Center
www.shalomctr.org
6711 Lincoln Drive
Philadelphia PA 19119
215/844-8494

HEYYOU:

So you worship Paul. Surprise, surprise.

An dmy point, as you freaking well know, is that if you're going to say that the OT was between God and the Jews (which I've been saying all along), then you can't hold anyone else accountable for obeying those pesky commandments Moses brought down from the mountain.

bgone, such DISDAIN for your father. I can imagine how badly you treat one you can see by the way you treat the One you can't see.

I rest my case. bgone and lepidopteryx proved my point. NONE of the thoughts of the two mentioned are taught by the Apostle Paul.

**the Old Testament was written to the Jewish nation as a Covenant between God and the Jewish Nation. NOT AS A BLUEPRINT FOR THE WORLD TO LIVE BY.**

WHOOHOO! Maybe now the overzealous faction of the Xian population will stop badgering me about worshipping other gods, asking me to take down my altar and my goddess statues, and my refusal to keep their sabbath as my own.

Our Father who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name
"Thy Kingdom Come,"
Thy will be done
OR ELSE

Hallowed must be the fertility god. He is our father after all. We are all children of the fertility god.

Oh and btw, Randall Balmer is no more a Christian than a bone dry tree stump is a valid tree. Randall Balmer you are like Nicodemous, he came to Jesus AT NIGHT and the same respone to him is a valid response to you, "Randall Balmer YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN." Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisee YOU WILL NOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Another absurd tactic of heathens is to use the words of the Old Testament as if it proves their point. Get this though your dull minds; the Old Testament was written to the Jewish nation as a Covenant between God and the Jewish Nation. NOT AS A BLUEPRINT FOR THE WORLD TO LIVE BY. If you wanted to be subject to the Old Testament you HAD to convert to Judaism. How ignorant some people are! For a heathen to use the Old Testament as if you are making some valid point in your argument makes you look stupid. Please stop.

One can easily tell the difference between the Born Again Church of the living God found ONLY in Christ and a cult. The cult wants to bring pervert the True Church. When in fact they can only pervert themselves. The Bible says, "Every other sin a man commits is outside the body but the immoral man sins against his own body." In the beginning God created man and woman. Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve. Homosexuality and beastiality and all the other perversions of marriage between a man and woman came AFTER the fall of man. In fact the earth was destroyed by the flood soon after men began to take multiple wives. I'd be willing to bet homosexaulity and beastiality was part of the equation back then too because man perverts everything good because he is a sinner through and through in need of a Savior. The Lord Jesus.
Funny too how abnormal man tries to declare and impose what is not normal on society! The final standard for society is the words of the Apostle Paul found in the New Testament. Even the Roman Catholics supposed first Pope, they claim, though Peter denys, Peter deferred to the Apostle Paul in declaring the Gospel to the gentiles. Thats non Jews to you heathens.

Having spent a good amount of time arguing with anti-gay people online about gay rights I can attest that the same incoherent, shifting and contradictory arguments are put forth both by the church-going and those who aren't particularly religious. I've concluded that the bigotry is primary and the Bible is simply used, by both groups, as justification for it.

LDS MARK:

That sme book also allows parents to stone disobedient children. Should we keep that rule as well?

LDS Mark:

Got a question. Do youlet people speak for you or do you speak for yourself?

If your buddies say they are against something, but you say nothing on the matter, does that mean you are against it too?

Didn't think so.
Don't put words into Jesus' mouth. Makes you look silly.

Randall,
You said, “Jesus himself said nothing about the matter”.
It is true, but his prophets did. And that is the same thing.

Here is just one example: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
From THE THIRD BOOK OF MOSES CALLED LEVITICUS 18:22

Sorry for the capitalization, I copied and pasted.

Don’t get caught up in the devils trap of ignoring what is not convenient.

Mark

Instead of trying to get accepted by Christian churches gays should just abandon Christianity. It is an evil, sado-masochistic religion and of course it is anti-gay. Just say no. And leave.

Thank you for this, Rev. Balmer. What's even more certain is that forty years ago, they might have publicly advocated for exclusion of divorced people or against the ordination of divorced clergypersons, because surely the Gospels are clearly on that. Yet, just about every denomination has changed their welcome of divorced persons. The question I also ask is "what about love thy neighbor as yourself?" Are gay and lesbian persons not our neighbors?

See my blog post today at http://debrahaffner.blogspot.com

Rev. Debra W. Haffner

Thank you for this, Rev. Balmer. What's even more certain is that forty years ago, they might have publicly advocated for exclusion of divorced people or against the ordination of divorced clergypersons, because surely the Gospels are clearly on that. Yet, just about every denomination has changed their welcome of divorced persons. The question I also ask is "what about love thy neighbor as yourself?" Are gay and lesbian persons not our neighbors?

See my blog post today at http://debrahaffner.blogspot.com

Rev. Debra W. Haffner

I had to read one line twice to make sure I got it right - a female religious leader who opposed the ordination of women? I'd be curious to know how she reconciled that with her own role. Sounds kind of like a high school approach to sex - as long as you stop short of actual penetration, it's not really sex. As long as they stop short of actual ordination, it's not really authority? Even when I was Christian, I never understood why ordination of women was such a big taboo. What was it about being born with a vagina that made women unfit to preach?

But Mr. Balmer is right. Selective quotatin of scripture (cherry-picking) has always been used to support the positions of those in power within the church, starting with the Council of Nicea and their decisions on what would and would not be accepted as canon.

This is a great article and I commend you upon your questioning of the group. It is all about perception - one's point of view. The problem is that when these groups talk about the issues, quite a number of them come at it from an emotional level and some of them may have no experience. Some of them do not know anyone who is gay so it it easy to demonize them. The fact that they are unable to articulate how it is different says everything.....

It's always "different", isn't it?

I wonder what we'll be quoting the Bible about in the next 20 years.

It's all so ridiculous.

Great article Mr. Balmer.