A Wicked Deed in Wichita - A Test for the Pro-Life Movement

Thank you Dr. Mohler,
The hate of children is pervasive in society. They are often seen as an imposition not a blessing. Only in America. Some of the poorest countries on Earth consider children an incredible blessing. I have 2 and one on the way. Plan to adopt 2 or 3 after that. I'm crazy about kids. It's too bad the other side continues to do away with their future voting block.

lets just find some really weak person we can continually hint to and tell them that there are some really "bad" people we "know" are committing "unholy" sins. Keep telling him over and over and get lots of people he/she really is in awe of to repeat the same stuff over and over. and just keep telling them that this person/these people are doing the Devil's work. never say directly, just infer and push the concept that this is an evil person.
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Wow. That's some logic you got there. So let's say, forty percent of the US are adults, that would be 120 million people. Let's say half consider themselves pro-life (according to the last Gallup poll) 60 million people. So one individual, ONE, commits a heinous, evil act, and the whole pro-life community is responsible for it.

Yep that sure is some pretty special logic you're working with.

lets just find some really weak person we can continually hint to and tell them that there are some really "bad" people we "know" are committing "unholy" sins. Keep telling him over and over and get lots of people he/she really is in awe of to repeat the same stuff over and over. and just keep telling them that this person/these people are doing the Devil's work. never say directly, just infer and push the concept that this is an evil person.

maybe one day that person will "act out" on these "suggestions" to prove to himself and those he/she has been brainwashed by and actually do some harm to that "evil" person.

Gosh who would do such a thing to such a weak person. surely that would not be the intent of such focused people would it.

sow the wind, reap the whirwind.

too bad the Bible is used to kill

Dearest PaganPlace:

Regarding your perceptive comment:

"'Eugenics' would require someone to have an idea what they were talking about."

Surely thirty million abortions have improved the race, don't you think?

Bhickson:

Oh, that ought to be good. Can't wait to see what you came up with, being its not there.

MikeL4, my response is being "held for review by the original poster" I would assume due to its length, but don't worry you got your answer.

Please provide some underlying proof of the assertion that fetuses are babies. That is really one central question here.
Posted by: AgentG | June 2, 2009 6:26 PM
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Uh, AgentG, did you take high school science? Fetuses are developing human beings. Each one is separate and unique. Its own fingerprints and DNA. An individual human being. If you are comfortable killing them up to the moment they are born, I guess that is on you.

"We make these arguments because we know they are true. Abortion is murder."

Correction, you believe they are true. You believe abortion is murder. Please be honest with what is fact and what is your narrow faith. As long as you conflate abortion with murder, you will be on shaky moral ground, because you will have no logical argument why the "murderers" in your distorted view should not be killed. This in itself reveals the moral weakness of the anti-abortion crowd.

I submit that these purported tenets of faith, that the unborn are citizens or human individuals, is simply unsupported in any biblical teaching, or by any standard of moralty, or in any theological sense. It certainly is not supported in law, medicine or science.

The basic fact is that the unborn are not human individuals, and the pro-life movement has developed a neurotic ambition for fetuses. This is quite dangerous and immoral, particularly when the health and civil rights of women become subrogated to such religious fervor. It is further evidence of the ignorance of the teachings of the Christian faith, and an example of the worst kind of religious fervor, based in ignorance and hysteria, therby fomenting violence and hate.

Please provide some underlying proof of the assertion that fetuses are babies. That is really one central question here.

BHICKSON:

Okay, my bad. You find the 'right to privacy' in the constitution. Actually read Griswold and read Roe. Then read the constitution. Maybe you can tell me where they found it. It is not there. The majority MADE IT UP. They wanted an individual right to privacy, so they made it up.

I'll give you time. I'm going home now. I'll check back.

Oh my, did I touch a nerve? What life distinction does it make what trimester the fetus is in? The fetus is a developing human being. It was our illustrius Supreme Court who injected trimesters into the whole "life" debate.
One month or eight months, it is still human. Those that would kill the developing human being would have us say it only "looks" human later on, so we shouldn't kill it then. (That didn't stop Dr. Tiller though.) It doesn't matter if it "looks" human or not. It is still a developing human being.
As to the constitution, sorry to mess up your whole "the court said it was legal argument".
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The only nerve you touched is my disdain for nonsense. You do not put forth one logical argument, you make no sense. How did you, "mess up your whole "the court said it was legal argument"."? As I said to do so you have to put forth some evidence, something to support your claim. You can not be taken seriously if you do not present a serious case.

BHICKSON:

Oh my, did I touch a nerve? What life distinction does it make what trimester the fetus is in? The fetus is a developing human being. It was our illustrius Supreme Court who injected trimesters into the whole "life" debate.

One month or eight months, it is still human. Those that would kill the developing human being would have us say it only "looks" human later on, so we shouldn't kill it then. (That didn't stop Dr. Tiller though.) It doesn't matter if it "looks" human or not. It is still a developing human being.

As to the constitution, sorry to mess up your whole "the court said it was legal argument".

I am truly amazed at the vigor some of you feel "killing an evil man". A man most of you never met. A man that many were dependent on. You have been conned by a devil twisted tongue. I think the national spotlight on this murder has awaken many to the misguided slander that spellbounds you. You will be forced into a closet like the KKK.

Hate speeches promote hate crimes, those who made the speeches need to be held accountable. The Non-Profit status needs to be looked at. All Non-Profits should be held to the same rules.

Amen!

>Reading through the comments here is a real eye-opener. There are more christianist terrorists at large in the U.S. than I would have imagined. I can only hope that Homeland Security is tracking the IP addresses of these anti-American terrorists and rounding them up before they kill again. Decent people should not have to live in fear of being shot or blown up at church or at the doctor's office. This has to stop, fortunately we have the anti-terror laws on the books to do so.

>Posted by: screwyou | June 2, 2009 1:11 PM

Actually, your argument regarding the constitutionality of killing developing human beings in the womb is suspect. The same Supreme Court that declared a right to privacy in the constitution, also declared at a point in time that Black Americans were property. In other words, they were wrong. Just because something is legal doesn't make it moral or just.
The right to privacy was made up. It is not there. It is one of the most flawed reasonings ever of a court.
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Did you even read what I wrote or did you just fly into attack mode because we differ on the issue? All I said is that Roe v Wade is based on rights gaureeted by the Constitution as interperted by the Supreme Court and to present it as anything else is disingenious. The court finds no evidence to suggest that life begins at conception and neither do I. I certainly do not think abortions should be preformed in the third trimester, but in the first two you can't prove to me or the court that a fetus is "human life". This is a point that we will never agree on and that's fine but there is nothing flawed with the logic behind that resoning. My post was in response to an invalid comparison to the Nazi legal justification for the Holocost. If you wish to argue that the governement has the right to assert itself into your private affairs and the most intimate details of your life then go ahead. Unless you can prove "human life" exists before the third trimester or that the government has the right to interfere with a medical procedure preformed by a licensed doctor then you have no arguement to make. That's the way you win an arguement, you have to discredit the princples the decision is based on, anything else is irrelivant in trying to make your case.

BHICKSON:

Actually, your argument regarding the constitutionality of killing developing human beings in the womb is suspect. The same Supreme Court that declared a right to privacy in the constitution, also declared at a point in time that Black Americans were property. In other words, they were wrong. Just because something is legal doesn't make it moral or just.

The right to privacy was made up. It is not there. It is one of the most flawed reasonings ever of a court.

Actually, I'm not wrong, although I acknowledge your point that within a society, laws are just that, laws. My point was that laws made within a specific culture do not make them right to humanity. Although Genocide was conducted on a mass scale in Europe under a legal framework that permitted it, the laws themselves were used to mask the immorality embraced by the culture (at least on the surface). The fact that the law was the legal basis for discrimination against and murder of classes of people didn't excuse the laws from repudiation and expunging by the court of humanity. That abortion doesn't fall in our societies legal definition of murder doesn't mean the laws aren't wrong, just accepted.
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Again I say that you are wrong, because as I explained you compare apples to oranges, not only in your choice of language but in your historical comparison. The underlying principle of Roe v Wade is not that abortion is justified under the guise of "National Security" as it was in Nazi Germany; the Nazi's devised a legal justification for a policy they wished to carry out. Roe v Wade was an affirmation of a constitutional right to privacy under the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, not a rationalization for desired policy. Roe v. Wade held that a mother may abort her pregnancy for any reason, up until the "point at which the fetus becomes viable.’" The Court defined viable as being "potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid. Viability is usually placed at about seven months, 28 weeks, but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks." The Court also held that abortion after viability must be available when needed to protect a woman's health, which the Court defined broadly in the companion case of Doe v. Bolton. So again I say that you are wrong because your argument is based on inaccuracy. You cannot evoke the practices of the most evil regime in modern history with the established principles of the US Constitution. If you want to argue that the Constitution does not grant a "right to privacy" or that the rights of the mother are superseded by the rights of the fetus similar to cases where children have been denied health care because of the religious beliefs of the parents by all means go ahead. However when you make inaccurate comparisons or use misleading language your argument is null and void.

Reading through the comments here is a real eye-opener. There are more christianist terrorists at large in the U.S. than I would have imagined. I can only hope that Homeland Security is tracking the IP addresses of these anti-American terrorists and rounding them up before they kill again. Decent people should not have to live in fear of being shot or blown up at church or at the doctor's office. This has to stop, fortunately we have the anti-terror laws on the books to do so.

getsix1:

The logical extension of your philosophy is that when you bruise yourself, you have just killed millions of examples of human lives. Human cells are human life. So you have been a murderer several times in your life. A murderer of human life.

It appears that Dr. Mohler is conflicted in his thoughts. On the one hand he rightly condemns murder as the sin that it is, and affirms that murder for any reason is wrong. Yet, on the other hand, he takes considerable effort to present arguments which seem to justify the killing of Dr. Tiller, by laying out all of the "sins" of the Doctor and his practice of medicine.

It should be enough for those of us who are entrusted by God and our congregations with the servanthood of ministry to state, without qualifier, that murder is wrong no matter what the murderer states as the reason. There is no justification for murder and there should be no softening of this message by telling of all the wrongs of the victim. Those that grieve Dr. Tiller should receive our unconditional love and support. Jesus taught us to be such lights in these dark times.

The other message that should be drawn from Dr. Mohler's presentation is that killing even a killer is morally wrong. This should be carried to its larger context and move us to stand up against all executions. Life is God's marvelous gift to all, including those that society and Christian ministers consider to be among our greatest sinners.

Abortion is legal; murder is murder.

sick people! these pro lifers are such sick people. not worthy of God's grace.

I don't recall Mr. Mohler speaking out against the War for Oil in Iraq.

Is that not a moral abomination too?

How about the death penalty in Texas?

You wrote that "violence in the name of protesting abortion is immoral, unjustified, and horribly harmful to the pro-life cause."
Immoral - possibly;
horribly harmful to the pro-life cause - I would think so; But
unjustified - I dunno;
But luckly for me I have your own words to find the answer

"Proponents of abortion rights often charge that the rhetoric of the pro-life movement leads to violence. After all, we describe abortion as MURDER and point to the business of abortion as the MURDER of the unborn. We make clear that abortion is the taking of innocent human life and that what goes on in abortion clinics is the business of DEATH. We make these arguments because we know they are true. Abortion is MURDER. What goes on in those clinics is institutionalized HOMICIDE, often for financial profit. Abortion is a moral scandal and a national tragedy and a blight upon the American conscience."
To me killing to stop murder is acceptible. You say one thing and prove the opposite to be true.
Posted by: Nosmanic | June 2, 2009 2:36 AM
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"To me killing to stop murder is acceptable"

You forget abortion is LEGAL murder is NOT. Don't like abortion - get the laws changed - just because you and others like you "think" something does not make it so. In this case, since you consider it murder, I'd say don't participate. But you've got to learn to allow others to live within the law and do what they think is best for themselves. You don't get a vote as of today.

wow...the pro-lifers are good shots!

"There may already be babies who are alive today because Dr. Tiller was killed on Sunday. And since Dr. Tiller specialized in late-term abortions, it may be that these babies' mothers will not get a chance to schedule another abortion - and will instead give birth to their child. You can argue that it is not prudent to kill abortionists (bad press, etc.). But it is abundantly clear that the killing of Dr. Tiller was justified."

Posted by terrorist - Leszx

christian terrorists, islamic terrorists, all the same.

These nut cases want to terrorize doctors and their patients and should all be arrested like any other religious fanatic terrorist group. They call thmselves christian but they are just like al Qaeda. Animals!

crocodile tears. and just how many times has mohler referred to abortion as murder and to the doctors who perform it as, well you know.

no doubt mohler would never consider actually pulling the trigger, but he can't absolve himself of setting it up. mixing strong words and weak minds leads to this kind of explosion and he damned well knows it.

Where will the so-called pro-lifers stop? Will they soon condemn the woman who has a hysterectomy since she is "killing" the prospect of children in the future? Will they condemn the man who has a vasectomy since he can no longer father children? Will the physicians who perform those operations be targeted for death, too?

How many of these so-called pro-lifers have adopted the abandoned and unwanted children? Those who are mentally or physically challenged, those older children who have been tossed from foster home to foster home, the teens who are living on the streets? Where is the help for them?

Life does not start with the fertilization of an egg and end with birth.

There may already be babies who are alive today because Dr. Tiller was killed on Sunday. And since Dr. Tiller specialized in late-term abortions, it may be that these babies' mothers will not get a chance to schedule another abortion - and will instead give birth to their child. You can argue that it is not prudent to kill abortionists (bad press, etc.). But it is abundantly clear that the killing of Dr. Tiller was justified.

Wow Farnaz1, in ten years, ten acts of violence. The way the pro-abortion folks talk, you would have thought there was a terror wave. The acts of lone crazies does not taint a group, nor does it need an apology from its people. Dr. Tiller was an evil man. His killer also committed an evil act. They both will be held account, as we all will be, for their actions.

Nosmanic,

"To me killing to stop murder is acceptible."

You mean to murder is acceptable to stop murder. But, again, abortion is not murder, but is a legal medical procedure. Blowing someone away is not.

How far does that thinking go? Well, I am sure that suicide bombers feel that they are stopping murderers, and are proud of their intervention. Does that justify it?

I mourn deeply the passing of Dr. Tiller. He was a an example of courage under the most difficult of terms. When I think of him, I think of so many women around the world who struggle daily against the threat of voilence, torture, rape, murder, incarceration and isolation to get an education, to eat, to live, to work and, yes, to escape forced pregnancy.

That he was a man, a man in defense of women and their families makes his valor even that much more unique and precious. It could not be easier for a man, I think and as most do everyday, to simply join the villagers rant and fight to impose their will on individuals they refuse to know.

I thank his family, friends and associates for their support of Dr. Tiller and commit to supporting, in word and deed, this important struggle.

For every pro-life protester out there please contribute $100,000 for every unaborted child born so they can be raised to adulthood. Then guess what no more abortions would take place. You think that bringing children into the world is great until they are abused or can't be fed because of lack of funds. Then there are the pregnant girls that can't talk to their parents because they would be virbally abused. Planned Parenthood is just that "planned". They offer more then just abortions

You wrote that "violence in the name of protesting abortion is immoral, unjustified, and horribly harmful to the pro-life cause."

Immoral - possibly;
horribly harmful to the pro-life cause - I would think so; But
unjustified - I dunno;

But luckly for me I have your own words to find the answer

"Proponents of abortion rights often charge that the rhetoric of the pro-life movement leads to violence. After all, we describe abortion as MURDER and point to the business of abortion as the MURDER of the unborn. We make clear that abortion is the taking of innocent human life and that what goes on in abortion clinics is the business of DEATH. We make these arguments because we know they are true. Abortion is MURDER. What goes on in those clinics is institutionalized HOMICIDE, often for financial profit. Abortion is a moral scandal and a national tragedy and a blight upon the American conscience."

To me killing to stop murder is acceptible. You say one thing and prove the opposite to be true.

"The law rightly affirms that the killing of Dr. George Tiller is murder. "

Well, before the law came along the Ten Commandments made it plain that killing someone was murder. That seems to have slipped everyone's mind. Maybe because the Ten Commandments don't say that abortion is murder?

Recent cases of abortion-related violence

By The Associated Press – 1 day ago

A look at recent cases of abortion-related violence:

_ May 31, 2009: Prominent late-term abortion provider George Tiller is shot and killed in a Wichita church where he was serving as an usher. The gunman fled but a city official said a suspect is in custody.

_ April 2007: Authorities say Paul Ross Evans placed a homemade bomb in the parking lot of the Austin Women's Health Center in Texas. A bomb squad disposes of the device, which contained two pounds of nails. There are no injuries.

_ Oct. 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian is fatally shot in his home in a suburb of Buffalo, N.Y. Militant abortion opponent James Kopp is convicted of the murder in 2003 and sentenced to 25 years to life in prison.

_ Jan. 29, 1998: A bomb explodes just outside a Birmingham, Ala., abortion clinic, killing a police officer and wounding several others. Eric Rudolph later pleads guilty to that incident and the deadly bombing at the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta. He justifies the Alabama bombing in an essay from prison, writing that Jesus would condone "militant action in defense of the innocent."

_ Jan. 16, 1997: Two bomb blasts an hour apart rock an Atlanta building containing an abortion clinic. Seven people are injured. Rudolph is charged by federal authorities in October 1998.

_ Dec. 30, 1994: John Salvi opens fire with a rifle inside two Boston-area abortion clinics, killing two receptionists and wounding five others. Sentenced to life without parole, he kills himself in prison in 1996.

_ Nov. 8, 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis, who performs abortions in Vancouver, Canada, is shot in the leg while eating breakfast at home.

_ July 29, 1994: Dr. John Bayard Britton and his volunteer escort, James H. Barrett, are slain outside a Pensacola, Fla., abortion clinic. Barrett's wife, June, is wounded in the attack. Paul J. Hill, 40, a former minister and anti-abortion activist, is later convicted of murder and sentenced to death.

_ Aug. 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller is shot in the arms as he drives out of parking lot at his Wichita, Kan., clinic. Rachelle "Shelley" Shannon is later convicted and sentenced to 11 years in prison.

_ March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn is shot to death outside Pensacola, Fla., clinic, becoming the first U.S. doctor killed during an anti-abortion demonstration. Michael Griffin is convicted and serving a life sentence.

Copyright © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

And what happens if "pro lifers" then start to kill the mothers and fathers who CHOOSE to have an abortion?

Where is the outrage from the right for them? How many of them should be shot?

Where does this end?

Hey pagan - place,

Why dont you go to toys - R - Us and get a CLUE. Maybe it would be a good idea to read the whole article before you go spouting you keyboard.

"o, no, not murder. Not murder at all. Just eugenics really.

Posted by: YourAffectionateUncle"

'Eugenics' would require someone to have an idea what they were talking about.

"This column is nothing but a big stinking bowl of rationalization. "

How about we make it simple, then, Christian.

You wanna kill someone, you go through me.

If you're just going to kill people anyway leave my government alone.

This column is nothing but a big stinking bowl of rationalization.

"Violence in response to the horror of abortion is rare," he says, then cites numerous incidents of killings and bombings. He doesn't mention the physical intimidation, the threats, the terrorist fear practiced every day, websites such as "Army of God," which glorifies killers.

"We make these arguments because we know they are true. Abortion is murder," he says.

Um, says you. You do NOT know they're true. They're your opinion.

"After all, we describe abortion as murder and point to the business of abortion as the murder of the unborn."

Um, you do more than that. Check out Bill O'Reilly calling the doctor guilty of "Nazi stuff," a moral equivalent to NAMBLA and al-Qaida, and saying that Tiller "has blood on his hands."

Please.

"Dishonoring to God in its disrespect for human life. The law failed to bring George Tiller to account for what should have been seen as crimes against humanity."

No. Sir. The law is the law. The law did NOT fail.

Giving voice to the self-styled "pro-life" movement at this time is analogous to giving a platform to the views the KKK after the assassination of Martin Luther King. Dr. Tiller provided a broad range of legal medical services, committing not so much as even a misdemeanor in the conduct of his practice. He's dead today because of lawless vigilantes who do not value democracy, who do value the Constitution, and do not value the American way of life, and who instead hold themselves above the rule of law. As a devout Christian I am appalled by the words and actions of these people, who remind me far more of the Taliban than any true follower of Christ.

I'm thinking (Thinker1) means thinker rank one out of infinity. Abortion is not a policy, it is a woman's choice. Connecting abortion to social security is truly Limbaughistic. Maybe pyramid based ideas result in end of game losers. Everyone can't get rich and have their own island. I've paid way more in than I'll get out and it isn't the immigrants and aborted babies causing the problem. Dang truly amazing thinking, it is easier to blame others. I think it gives us a sense of superiority and creates an us and them arrangement that is more comfortable with those who don't care to comprehend other points of view.

>Abortion is really bad policy. 25% of our pregancies end in this for over 30 years, and we wonder why there is a lack of consumer demand. We wonder where we will find taxpayers to cover the costs of social security. I think those who kill to stop it are taking civil disobedience to a criminal extreme.

>Posted by: Thinker1 | June 1, 2009 11:11 PM
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It's not a Gods-damned test, Reverend.

If you tell people constantly that some people 'need killin' ...even if you deny responsibility for what you said in the name of 'life' you may as well have pulled the Mother-lovin trigger if you are in any way un-clear on this murder not being a brutality borne of political extremism.

Frankly, if you 'pro lifers' want to keep telling people that an OB/GYN that isn't beholden to your 'intelligent design theory' needs killing....

Wel, the Hel with you, murderers. Real and actual murderers.

Where's that leave us?

The rest of the world not having to put up with your damn hyperbole about real lives you wouldn't *tough* without gloves.

So shaddup.

Abortion is really bad policy. 25% of our pregancies end in this for over 30 years, and we wonder why there is a lack of consumer demand. We wonder where we will find taxpayers to cover the costs of social security. I think those who kill to stop it are taking civil disobedience to a criminal extreme.

When will America finally reject the anti-abortion movement's self-styling as "pro-life"? They are against self-determination for women. They favor fetuses over women and would let women die. And they encourage and applaud the murder of medical professionals doing legal procedures.

This has nothing to do with life.

I think man's greed and control issues are causing the issues on your list. Not a curse from God. I thought the wrathful God beliefs had mostly died out, guess I was wrong. You better start making sacrifices to appease him, maybe a few more heretics will do!(IMPORTANT NOTE: just kidding we have had enough sacrificial killings. God told me just the other day, no more sacrifices, honest)

Nature seems to constantly renew itself, planets appear to have a lifespan. Our ignorance has caused us to blame God, make sacrifices to appease him. Sadly we are more a threat to ourselves now than earthquakes and asteroids. Poisoning your water supply is pretty stupid. Earth can be seen as life form made up of many different parts. It is amazing how our bodies have evolved as different organisms decided to team up instead of fight each other. The balance of natural ecosystems also shows the same mechanism. The higher lifeforms show more teamwork. So whats wrong with the Church?

>It's amazing when a nation is so lost that it does not realize it is under a curse. There is not enough work, people are losing their homes, there plagues and disasters. Why do we think these things come about? We brush it off as science etc.

>Abortion, gay rights, adultery, vanity and greed are just a few of the sins plaguing our nation. If we believe that God is real, why do we not believe that what he says is true? We might as well worship golden calves.

>Posted by: rentaprogrammer | June 1, 2009 8:48 PM
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For many years, Dr. George Tiller has represented the horrific reality of the abortion industry in this nation. Infamously known to the pro-life movement in America, ..
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"Abortion industry"? Only in the way that the entire American Health Care System is an industry. After all Reproductive Health is part of that System.

So many are condemning Dr. Tiller and yet as a Christian I will not condemn them. All I ask if for those who state that 2nd or 3rd trimester abortion is murder read the stories here and tell me that these women and families only got an abortion to (as getsix1 said) "just get rid of it and go out partying". May God forgive you for what I believe is an intolerant attitude.

http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/kansasstories.html

"Abortion does not fall into any of these catagories so to call it murder is inaccurate."

No, no, not murder. Not murder at all. Just eugenics really.

Best pictures of God I've seen!

http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/

We are so little and so is our knowledge of God's design. I think some of these pictures would make a great stained glass window.

any one that says life starts at birth is a pinhead lefty who loves the idea that insted of taking care of a baby its more fun to just get rid of it and go out partying

Posted by: getsix1 | June 1, 2009 6:24 PM
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As a person who supports the right to choose, and as the person who, as a 20 year old chose to keep her child, I am insulted by those who try to impose their beliefs on me. And yes I am Christian, teach Sunday School and have helped plant a church. All those things have been done by believing that Jesus works through LOVE, not murder or threats.

We should fight the religious fanatics here, so others don't have to fight them over there.

No one is forcing your daughters to get late term abortions. Pro choice is what the women I know want, none of them wants an abortion and will not have to worry about it because they understand reproduction. Your extremist views will destroy the respect for your church. The church has lost many of the educated their money now goes to non profits. The pews are uncomfortable and the sermons often long winded. You will reap what you sow.

In what way will your church help make the world a better place? I'll be picking up your trash and feeding the poor with the non profits. I participated in several churches that have been great for the community, of course they got participation by not espousing extremist and divisive views and having great public service activities.

The contributor writes: "We make these arguments because we know they are true. Abortion is murder."

These are not words of contrition, but words that spur the insane to bloody acts.

This reverend knows that he is calling others to kill with these words; his church has an infamous history of using similar words to endorse slavery, and after slavery to spur the Ku Klux Klan to acts of human sacrifice. Once his church's relationship with these murders became unpopular to the overwhelming majority of Americans they sought a new source of blood in the anti-abortion cause.

It is a sad, disgusting history. Like the words used to contort the Bible to endorse slavery, this preacher seeks to distort the Bible to say it proscribes abortion, yet no words exist.

The reverend is as guilty as the shooter.

>If we believe that God is real, why do we >not believe that what he says is true?

Because when God talks to man her message is tainted by man's current perception and motivations. History is ripe with examples. Check out psychology 101.

The quiet mind probably has a much better chance to hear god and she doesn't seem to be saying anything other than be absorbed by infinite love and energy, be amazed at the perpetual beauty. Nature is a great place to get a glimpse.

Do on to others as you would have them do to you is a great rule. Although it seems to break down when God's creatures are hungry.

Pro life people murdering others, just a slight sense of hypocricy.

An yes, this is domestic terrorism, no doubt. It's religiously based and exactly the same as when a muslim or any other group does it.

Off to gitmo, as no U.S. governor seems to want "terrorists" in U.S. facilties.

The Tom Cruise character in Valkyrie tried to kill Hitler and they made a movie about him...

Not that I think that the murder of Dr. Tiller was justified, but on the point of John Brown: After his act of insurection at Harper's Fairy that left a few Americans dead, didn't this country procede to fight a civil war to end slavery which took the lives of over 600,000 Americans and we now consider said war rightous.

It's amazing when a nation is so lost that it does not realize it is under a curse. There is not enough work, people are losing their homes, there plagues and disasters. Why do we think these things come about? We brush it off as science etc.

Abortion, gay rights, adultery, vanity and greed are just a few of the sins plaguing our nation. If we believe that God is real, why do we not believe that what he says is true? We might as well worship golden calves.

I just don't get it, if the souls of people last through death; to enjoy heaven, 70 virgins, puffy white clouds with a god that looks like a Greek gladiator what is being killed? Is the fetus not going to the promised land because it has no goal in mind? Its just like the BS about how those who don't know Christianity won't be saved. What? Now, I honestly think we have had Religious institutions on earth who have reveled much about our place in the enormity of the universe. It seems science has stepped in and filled the vacuum religious organizations left after they became happy with how their model fit with observations. Everything revolving around earth just wasn't working with the collected data. Maybe the center of the universe fight and bible consolidation took the motivation of continued learning away or the Church's decided mind control was more effective, cheaper and easier than research and exploration. If the belief in an after life helps our citizens be more civil, that's awesome and is a great tool. The Rule of Law appears to have the upper hand in the enforcement category. Anyways I have been impressed with many Religious organization affiliates and the difference they have made in our communities. I'm not sure who is making the most difference? The big religions or the more targeted non profit groups. I definitely think that religions should be controlled by the same rules as the non profits. Hard to believe we have our own fanatical groups preaching hate against our public service providers, its embarrassing and I'm sure many are drawing parallels to the Taliban. They killed in a church! Sick behavior that was fueled by repeated hate sermons, hypocrites. Not surprised "The O'Reilly Factor" had 28 episodes on "Tiller the Killer". I've listened to many a drunken rants from people all over the country spouting Bill and Rush extremist, divisive views. Hate speeches do lead to hate crimes, just like the word of God could lead us to be more civil. All of us working together would be an amazing force to deal with. It would be great if one day we have an open sourced religion that can be easily applied to the problems we face locally and globally, something simple that everyone could feel a part of, something that continues to evolve as we do.

I'm sure that each time an Islamic fanatic blows up a bunch of people, he is absolutely sure that he is doing his god's will.

Religious fanatics, no matter which version, are ALL evil scum, no matter which magical being you happen to think you are serving.

In the most quiet rhetoric one can incite others to violence, and claim innocence in the refuge of their words.

Think this over. Do you really want to make this comparison? You compare an insurrection to combat the use of slavery by an antire industry (agriculture) by many states (The Confederacy) to rob a people of the benefit of the sweat of their brow--with domestic terrorists who want to invade another person's personal life and tell them what medical procedures they can or cannot take advantage of? John Brown's insurrection was not a lone whacko from a religious extremist group trying to send a message, it was a full blown insurrection joines by many in the act. This shooter is a poor, duped loner who has been led to hell by politicians (thank you, George W. Bush) who want to use the abortion issue to put votes in the ballot box.

"Several commentator's are saying Abortion is not murder because it it legal, whereas murder is illegal. In Nazi Germany, they wrestled with the same thing, a legal framework for the extermination of human beings (for those who cannot be bothered to read, check out the movie "Conspiracy" for a summation). After tinkering with the Nuremberg laws, it was legal, until May 2nd 1945...so the fact that something is legal doesn't mean its not murder."
________________________________________

Actually you are wrong. What you mean to say is: "...so the fact that something is legal doesn't mean its not moral." You see when you live in a nation of Laws it makes a very big difference how you classify an act. In general Murder in the US is categorized three ways: First Degree Murder: An intentional killing by means of poison, or by lying in wait, or by any other kind of willful, deliberate and premeditated action. Second Degree Murder: Homicide committed by an individual engaged as a principal or an accomplice in the perpetration of a felony. Third Degree Murder: Any other murder e.g. when the intent was not to kill, but to harm the victim. Abortion does not fall into any of these catagories so to call it murder is inaccurate. Make an arguement against the morallity if you wish but legally you lose everytime.
----------------------------------
Actually, I'm not wrong, although I acknowledge your point that within a society, laws are just that, laws. My point was that laws made within a specific culture do not make them right to humanity. Although Genocide was conducted on a mass scale in Europe under a legal framework that permitted it, the laws themselves were used to mask the immorality embraced by the culture (at least on the surface). The fact that the law was the legal basis for discrimination against and murder of classes of people didn't excuse the laws from repudiation and expunging by the court of humanity. That abortion doesn't fall in our societies legal definition of murder doesn't mean the laws aren't wrong, just accepted.

Oh, and Beaver, it is 22 weeks at the ultimate low end. Most 26-28 week babies can live with a stint on the respirator hence the popular myth that this is the low end, but there have been 22 week babies who have survived. Although not my source, try a cursory check of the internet before telling someone they know nothing - it shines a very bright light on ignorance (thank you DARPA). Try not using foul language either, it detracts from your argument.

WHAT IS A LIFE WORTH??? an army recruiter was murdered in cold blood today by a muslim and where is the hype? I mourn the murder of both of these men EQUALLY and mourn the death of the helpless infants who are killed daily - I am against the death penalty except for those who refuse to acknowledge the sanctity of life in their actions. I represent the feelings of most Americans whether you believe it or not and whether you like it or not - the majority needs to stand up for what is right!!! these perpetrators deserve punishment to the full extent of the law and these unjust laws that allow abortion for birth control should be abolished!

Murder in the Cathedral

Rev. Mohler's piece is an example of classic propaganda, a contribution to the murderous climate he and his partners in crime, and they are partners, create with their rhetoric.

False analogy, card stacking, transfer, glittering generalities, name calling, misplaced blame, demonizing the opponent--these are just a few of the techniques he employs to wage his demagogic attack on the murdered doctor.

Bring to these poisonous ingredients the deadly toxin of Religionism and you have the incendiary, murderous mix to which "Pro-Lifers" are continually subject. In light of this indoctrination, it is not surprising that the "Pro-Life" movement has resulted in deaths, bombings, injuries. What surprises is that "Pro-Life" has not claimed more among the innocent.

Mohler accurately reports that Dr. Tiller was known as "Tiller the Killer" within Mohler's deadly "Pro-Life" movement. However, he fails to mention that this bit of name-calling originated with none other than Bill O'Reilly of "The O'Reilly Factor," one of the high priests of Neo-Con Christianism. This blight on the airwaves dedicated no fewer than twenty-eight episodes to vilifying Dr. Tiller. What with well-financed television shows, the internet, mailings, and church sermons, it is surprising that Dr. Tiller was able to fend off the murderous "Pro-Lifers" for as long as he was.

In blaming the victim, Mohler neglects to mention that that part of Dr. Tiller's practice devoted to late-term abortions was limited to women for whom it was late discovered that the fetuses had severe or fatal birth defects, or who were at risk, themselves. These women, however, and their unborn children, were and are of no consequence to the Pro-Deathers.

As for Mohler's endless attempts at equating Dr. Tiller's murder with abortion, they are risible, just as the false analogy to John Brown is disgusting, the equation with Thoreau of the killer's supporters evil.

Mohler, O'Reilly, and their fellow Pro-Deathers share, through their poisonous rhetoric, responsibility for this tragedy.

That American taxpayer dollars should go to these bigots, killers, is horrifying and must not continue. These moral monsters must not be permitted to turn back the clock. They must not be helped to bring this country back to the stone age.

Not until these people--the O'Reillys, the Mohlers--are stopped can we search for common ground. Right now, the ground is burning.

Mohler:

"But violence in the name of protesting abortion is immoral, unjustified, and horribly harmful to the pro-life cause."

>Right, Right, and irrelevant...

Mohler:

We have no right to take the law into our own hands in an act of criminal violence. We are not given the right to take this power into our own hands, for God has granted this power to governing authorities.

>Huh? God granted this power to the governing authorities??? Excuse me, but please read the Preamble to the Constitution...it's We the People who ordained and established the government...not God....no mention of God in the Consitution.

"We have no right to take the law into our own hands in an act of criminal violence. We are not given the right to take this power into our own hands, for God has granted this power to governing authorities."

This is nonsense. If Dr. Mohler is aware that the murder of a child is about to take place, he has every legal right--if not moral obligation--to stop it by whatever means possible.

"I would have stopped that child from being killed, but I didn't want to break the law" is a pusillanimous position IF one really believes that the murder of a child is taking place.

Dr. Mohler is either shirking his moral obligation, or he is using rhetoric that he doesn't really believe.

I much prefer to think that it's the latter.

If even the people who are using the word "murder" doesn't really believe what they're saying, it's time to stop the overblown rhetoric.

Abortion isn't murder. Dr. Mohler knows it (else he would have acted on the strength of his moral convictions by now) and almost everybody else knows it, too. The very few who don't know it are those who use the rhetoric to justify these contemptible crimes.

These anti-choice organizations are nothing less than terrorism cells and should be dealt with by Homeland Security under the auspices of the Patriot Act. The objective of Operation Rescue and other christian whack jobs is to terrorize doctors. Send them to Guantanamo with the rest of their kind.

"Several commentator's are saying Abortion is not murder because it it legal, whereas murder is illegal. In Nazi Germany, they wrestled with the same thing, a legal framework for the extermination of human beings (for those who cannot be bothered to read, check out the movie "Conspiracy" for a summation). After tinkering with the Nuremberg laws, it was legal, until May 2nd 1945...so the fact that something is legal doesn't mean its not murder."
________________________________________

Actually you are wrong. What you mean to say is: "...so the fact that something is legal doesn't mean its not moral." You see when you live in a nation of Laws it makes a very big difference how you classify an act. In general Murder in the US is categorized three ways: First Degree Murder: An intentional killing by means of poison, or by lying in wait, or by any other kind of willful, deliberate and premeditated action. Second Degree Murder: Homicide committed by an individual engaged as a principal or an accomplice in the perpetration of a felony. Third Degree Murder: Any other murder e.g. when the intent was not to kill, but to harm the victim. Abortion does not fall into any of these catagories so to call it murder is inaccurate. Make an arguement against the morallity if you wish but legally you lose everytime.

Lets' get a handle on all this sanctimonious breeder jingoism.

First of all, everyone is "Prolife". Using this term instead of the accurate "Anti-abortion" suggests "Pro-choice" people are somehow "Anti-life". That's just bigoted.

I am comfortable calling myself "Pro-abortion" because getting pregnant is easy and this has lead to 6.5 Billion miracles. The more people there are, the cheaper humans become. Slavery is a booming business. Women should get an abortion if they didn't intend to get pregnant and not try to ride it out to birth. You can always breed another time when the timing is better and hopefully it will be intentional.

"Family Planning" is only for those who are planning to have a family. It is not a suitable term to use for everyone who want birth control, abortion or sex education. It suggests that everyone will want to have kids eventually. In reality what we are talking about is "Reproductive Control".

Finally, if you want kids and don't have them, you are "Childless", but if you don't have kids and prefer it that way any, you are "Child free".

Maybe all this fertility worship will change when we are all up to our necks in soiled diapers and eating Soylent green.

Abort Now!

Alright Catholics, lets get one thing straight: You are supporting the one institution that has killed more people than any other in the history of this planet. On top of that, how much psychological damage has been done by your priests? F-ing pedophiles!

Ignorance! Nothing more.

And for you Getsix1...you're battling science? Fetus's can't live on their own until (with medical help) 28 weeks MINIMUM! It's obvious that you don't know s**t.

From the Boston Rescuer editor (Boston Rescuer is affiliated with Operation Rescue), in response to an email I sent objecting to the practice of posting intimate details of the Doctor's lives on a website (such as "Tillerwatch"):
He wrote:
You are a victim of a misunderstanding. We are not abortionists, we are ANTI-abortion. Dr. Tiller was a murderer plain and simple. And a murderer of innocents at that. Such people draw violence to themselves.

-- Bill Cotter

This is an extreme position to take, bordering I would say, on condoning violence. I agree with EARLC's comment in regards to lowering the volume. This debate has led some to encourage the sidelining of the rule of law.

Dr. Mohler writes:
"Abortion is murder. What goes on in those clinics is institutionalized homicide, often for financial profit. Abortion is a moral scandal and a national tragedy and a blight upon the American conscience."

If abortion is murder and the government won't stop it, it seems only logical that a good Christian will try to stop it. Thus, we have now had 5 doctors slain by religious fanatics.

My point is that I believe religious fanatics like Dr. Mohler, who call legal abortion "murder", are themselves guilty of murder, and the government has done nothing to stop him. What's a concerned citizen to do about the religious fanatics in this country who are inflaming emotions about a legal procedure that has saved women's lives?

See how easy it is to instigate murders?

gee whiz, it's really just a shame.

gee whiz, it's really just a shame.

Christian Terrorism coming home to roost.

Not one of the newspapers, commentators or magazine articles called this an act of Christian Terrorism.

But when any Moslem does it, despite and in spite of their Religion, they are Islamic Terrorists.

Tell me American media isn't biased.

Let me caveat this by saying that it's coming from a purely historical perspective and does not declare support for that to be mentioned.

Several commentator's are saying Abortion is not murder because it it legal, whereas murder is illegal. In Nazi Germany, they wrestled with the same thing, a legal framework for the extermination of human beings (for those who cannot be bothered to read, check out the movie "Conspiracy" for a summation). After tinkering with the Nuremberg laws, it was legal, until May 2nd 1945...so the fact that something is legal doesn't mean its not murder.

Don't immediately lump me into pro-life by making that statement. I support abortion up to the second trimester. Once the fetus becomes viable (22 weeks - the point where a fetus can function on its own or with limited help) the only option should be adoption. This gives the woman at least 5 months to make up her mind and realize she should have kept her legs shut.

That this "Doctor" ignored the Hippocratic Oath and performed late term "Evacuations" it seems ironic on the cosmic scale that he should join his victims....now if only we could get all of the others who support leaving a viable baby (wrenched from the womb to) slowly expire on a cold table without intervention to gather around and witness, just like the citizens of the nearby towns of Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belsen, Dachau, etc., were forced to do in 1945, it would really be ironic....wait, I'll go get the popcorn.

Great; lets rely on the "morals" of the catholic church to save us.

You're fight is with Congress and the Courts, not with individuals who are acting in a fully-legal manner, whether you find that act to be abhorant or not.

Reading this blog is sickening. It's as if you want to say "hey, that's what he gets" but you are afraid to do so. You and your movement provoked this. You are as guilty as those who perform abortions.

By which law is abortion considered to be murder? Not the laws of Kansas, which allow abortion up to 20 weeks. Not the laws of the other 49 states, which a have a patchwork of laws, but all allow abortions.

Like it or not, we do not live in a Christian theocracy or under Biblical Law. We live in a pluralistic society, where one religion's beliefs should not be dictate to others. If you want to live in a theocracy, move to Saudi Arabia.

Abortion will not be ended. It can be reduced by dealing with proper sex education - not trusting to telling kids, "Just say no!" That's no more effective in sex than drugs.

At best, well done sexual education can help many teens avoid getting someone pregnant or becoming pregnant - whether by abstaining or using protection against pregnancy and disease. But if you believe in the Almighty, admit he made sex not just pleasurable but desirable for the majority of humans. That helps explain our survival as a species. And youths have always been and will always be sexually active.

So let's turn down the heat on hatred and turn up the heat on education. Maybe then we can see the number of abortions decline - something that should make all of us happy.

Dear Europeans - can we pay you take every single right winger in the USA? Please, pretty please? Siberia would be o.k. with us...just watch out...they may try to convince you that snow is actually little Jesus's and Mary's falling all around and if you walk on the snow, you're a murderer.

We know, it makes no sense at all, but here's a few billion in T-Bills...please...

From reading these comments, it is obvious that the US equivalent of the Religious Taliban is in full swing. There is nothing Christian about this murder and it is wholey evil. Some of the comments appear to support this act of violence. There is nothing about this that is justifiable by any religion or set of civil laws.

This murderer should be sent Gitmo with the rest of the religious terrorists. Better yet, put him in the general population of one of our maximum security prisons and let the Neo-Nazis send him to his just reward. I sincerely hope that justice is quick and that this religious terrorist is quickly executed since he obviously has a very distorted view of the value of life.

If the right wing religious taliban in this country wants to treat abortion as murder, they need to change the law. Abortion is not murder, and calling it murder only encourages acts like the horrific murder of this doctor. He was practicing medicine, caring for and saving the lives of his numerous women patients. Luckily, the majority still rules in this country and abortion is legal. It is not murder, irregardless of what the religious taliban windbags may call it. Keep your right-wing religious propaganda out of the lives of the ruling majority.

Unwed pregnant teens and 20-somethings who attend or have graduated from private religious schools are more likely to obtain abortions than their peers from public schools, according to research in the June issue of the Journal of Health and Social Behavior.

"This research suggests that young, unmarried women are confronted with a number of social, financial and health-related factors that can make it difficult for them to act according to religious values when deciding whether to keep or abort a pregnancy," said the study’s author, sociologist Amy Adamczyk of John Jay College of Criminal Justice and the Graduate Center, City University of New York.

WOW, I dont even know where to begin. All you pro-choice people are so ignorant. First of all killing Tiller was not a good thing, and that is not what Catholisism wanted. Another thing, do you honestly believe killing babies is a good thing, if so you should be ashamed of yourself. Don't say that most people do it because of health complications, and rape, because only 4% of abortions are due to these to things. Now lets say someone gets raped, why are you punishing an INNOCENT child for something stupid it father did. There are so many other options. Abortions increase a womans chance of getting breast cancer, also many women suffer from depression after an abortion, and turn to drugs and alcahol

The author states "we make these arguements because they are true. Abortion is murder."

Wrong, Mr. know-it-all. Life begins at birth, not at conception. I make this argument because I know it is true.

Take a month old fetus, take it from the womb and put it on a Lazy Boy. Not moving or breathing? Hmmm. Take a two month old fetus from the womb and place it in the Lazy Boy. No movement or breathing. Hmm.

Seems this thing called "life begins at birth" really has some merit to it.

Now, take the homeless man down on his luck and out of work. Put him in a Lazy Boy. Movement, and breathing. A live human being. Hmm.

Seems this thing called "homelessness" could use a little help from all those so interested in saving lives. Real, live, breathing, moving, thinking, caring, loving humnan beings. Ones with a pulse. Alive.

What a load of crap! You are just as immoral and illogical as Randall Terry and all of the other haters. Until you force your way on society, you will continue to incite godless morons to carry out your genocide on people you disagree with. Is it any wonder millions of people are leaving the church worldwide. It's because you espouse hate, and your kind surely will be turned away from eternal life, for you are evil.

R. Albert Mohler Jr. is a liar. Abortion is not murder. Plain and simple, murder is a crime, with elements to it. Malice aforethought, homicide, illegal, etc.

These anti-choice types utilize the term "murder" because they know it stokes up the emotions.

Just like a soldier killing an enemy in battle is not "murder," and accidentally running someone over with your car and killing them is not "murder," performing a legal medical procedure is not murder.

If you want to be taken seriously in this debate, begin by not making up lies about what abortion is and is not. It IS the termination of a pregnancy. It sometime IS the termination of a viable fetus. But it isn't murder.

"Dr. George Tiller has represented the horrific reality of the abortion industry in this nation."
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The "Abortion Industry"? Really? This is the most ridiculous phrase I have ever heard, ever. As if there is an assembly line of abortions, or low finance rates on abortions, or Abortions were traded on the NYSE. When dealing with sensitive and controversial issues attempting a clever turn of phrase is not advisable.

Let's Bash some Christians!

The problem is all you pro-lifers, who don't believe in science, are trying to battle with actual doctors...and about medical issues!

If you would just realize that there are more books out there than the bible, and that the bible has mistakes in it (world is only 4500 years old, life begins at conception...to name a few) the world would be a better place. Try opening your eyes, and also looking at life through someone else's eyes!

This is murder! There is no disputing that and to think otherwise is ignorant and futile. Yet another life lost because of religion!

"The only way to world peace is to kill all religion." Ziggy Marley

Calling a fetus a human being does not make it one. It is something that -- given the right environment -- could become a human being. This is also true of any adult cell that could be cloned. But killing such an adult cell would never be termed 'murder' nor should the killing of a fetal cell be termed murder.

The fallacy of treating something in terms of what it could become -- instead of what it is -- is immediately apparent once pointed out. If you don't believe me, lie down and I'll bury you -- we are all potentially dead.

The real problem is in their rush to protect the symbolic value of the beginning of life (oddly stated since both the egg and the sperm are alive and human before fertilization) the opponents of abortion are causing great damage to actual existing human beings who have the capacity (lacking in the fetus) to experience what happens to them.

It is not enough to deplore the murder of Dr. Tiller without taking steps to see that their own anti-abortion members never kill again.

Dr. Mohler has written a well-reasoned article. Though I disagree with the rhetoric that pro-lifers use to condemn abortion, the use of murder to prevent "murder" is not justified.

Where the pro-lifers err is that they are so obsessed with abortion that they fail to care for the aged, the malnurished, the sick, and the homeless.

Yes, I believe in Jesus. I am Southern Baptist. Yet, Jesus did not ask me to be a moral policeman. His message is quite clear. I should practice the golden rule and carry out the great commission.

It is wrong to parade posters with dead fetuses, grusome pictures of abortion, and so forth in the name of Jesus. It is wrong to push an aborted mass into a Predident's hand on a rope line just to make a point. Way too many "fine Christian people" cross the line everyday to protest abortion. If the truth were known, some of these people have had secret abortions. Most of us have met the type. They protest loudest against those things that they do in private.

Let's lower the volume. Let us remember that our Constitution is designed to provide each of us with a maximum amount of liberty and individual freedoms. Each person must make decisions about his/her own morality.