Palin Can Serve Family and Country

1) good feminists have long realized that the mommy track and the daddy track both mean that good parents have to fight for time with family.

2) the SBC was pretty anti-woman as president with ferraro.

3) I do not doubt that woman with a 17 year old who is pregnant and a down's syndrome baby could have a full time career. but I would be way more "blinky" than her.

in fact, my biggest problem is that she does not blink. that is what bush did, unlike his father or reagan or lbj. we need someone who can blink. then think. then decide.

you have 5 kids and you don't blink at the presidency? personally, I would not be president if I had kids under 18..and palin and obama do.

Sally Quinn's review was completely condescending and "lacks sympathetic understanding when it comes to conservative Christians" (as ALL liberals do).

The same argument that has been used against women pastors has also been historically used against allowing women to serve as our nation's leaders, or even allowing them to vote for our nation's leaders. "Divine order of command, order of creation", etc. Surely Dr. Mohler can see what people mean when they say "hypocrisy" concerning this topic.

I cannot believe the amount of venom directed from both sides of this issue. I have to read 10 comments to find one that advances the issue.

It's easy to pick on Paul - he's not here to defend himself. The things that are said about him are just laughable. To toss out his entire works because his position on women has been distorted by some and rejected by far more leaves you rejecting things like 1 Corinthians 13 on love and issues of pride and the abusing of gifts within the church.

The things Paul says are hard in themselves, and harder still because of our distance from him in time, culture, and geography. If God did inspire the Bible and protected it throughout the centuries, then I don't think you can easily dismiss his writings. If you don't believe the Bible is inspired, what else is there to guide you but your own sense of right and wrong - one that you know has failed you many times?

I would rather wrestle with something hard but authoritative than to be left drifting on the sea of my opinions, insights, and feelings.

Truth for Fame

People trade truth for the fame,
It’s part of the political game…
Yet God never lies, with love comes surprise…
A child belongs to the same.

What perplexes me more is the thought
That God wants us in wars that we fought…
What part of God’s will , In thou shall not kill
Is justified now with what’s sought.

People trade truth for the fame…
So wrapped up in their self centered game…
That they’d compromise love and lock up a dove…
With a series of lies, that’s insane.

People trade truth for the lies…
That are harder these days to deny…
And the bigger it grows, Concerns tragic impose…
Youthful innocent lives you’ve denied.

If keeping America safe,
Relies not on issues, but faith…
I’ll place “In God we trust”
At the front of a must
To vote for two men with such grace.

Hi there, Albert...

Thank you for this article...it has given me much to think about...

I'm wondering why you keep referring to feminists like they are some kind of bad people, or that feminists don't believe in the value of being mothers and wives...I'm a mother and a housewife (although I know that terms is out of date)...but I also consider myself a feminist in that I believe women deserve equal protection under the law...the right to vote...the right to equal pay...the right to own property...You seem very intelligent to me, so I know you can come up with a better term for what you mean...

And second...I don't really understand this comment: "I think it might be very helpful for the American people to see a real family struggling with these real issues"

Aren't we all real families?...and don't we all see our own struggle every day in this country?...why would Sarah Palin and her family's struggles be special to the American people?...Her family definitely has its share of struggles..and my heart goes out to her, and them...but do you think her family is somehow more authentic than yours or mine?...My daughter's grown up and out of the house, so it's just me and my husband at home...Does that make our family less real because we're an empty nest?...

-Vickie

As I read 1 Timothy 3, I noticed that it never said that women could NOT be in leadership at any time. It simply described the qualifications for men if they were to be leaders. So one would assume that the same qualifications would apply to a woman in the same position. It never disqualifies women, it simply uses man as an example. You could take the same requirements and just change the gender without changing ONE word of the Scripture. I think we're all just nit picking here. Sarah Palin is just as qualified as any man on this earth to run this country, and would probably do a BETTER job.

To sum up: Augustine sees the distinction of sex as something secondary, comparatively unimportant. It is as human beings with rational minds, capable of contemplating eternal truth (i.e. God), that all of us, male and female alike, are made to the image of God.

But reading on within the same text that you quoted:

Augustine and his mother, Monica
Augustine, of course, had treated his own mother like that (see above), but in the opposite sense; when he was bent on doing his own will, not God's. And he candidly confesses this waywardness in the "Confessions". What he felt about his mother when he wrote that work is made very clear by a long quotation with which Elizabeth Clark ends her "Women in the Early Church" — or rather a series of quotations from "Confessions" I 11, VI 1,13, IX 8-13 (WEA, pp. 246ff). These reveal not merely the love, but also the admiration, tinged with awe, with which Augustine remembered Monica. One of the things he admired in her, to be sure, was her serene acceptance of her duty of wifely submission to his rather rough father, Patricius (Patrick). But of his sense of her spiritual superiority to both himself and his father there can be no doubt at all.
Augustine and his mistress(es)!
The other important woman in his life was his mistress or concubine. He did, it is true, have a sister, who as a widow was superior of a convent of nuns in Hippo Regius where he was bishop. But all that his biographer, Possidius, tells us about their relations is that Augustine would not allow even her, let alone any other woman, to enter the monastery where he himself lived. To return to the woman who was his mistress in his youth; he is sometimes blamed for what is presented as his heartless treatment of her in sending her back to Africa from Milan (where he was Professor of Rhetoric at what could be called the Imperial University), when an advantageous marriage was being planned for him, shortly before his conversion. But in fact the chief actor in the whole affair was his mother. Augustine himself talks about the woman 'being torn from my side, and my heart being crushed and wounded, so that it drew blood' (Confessions VI 15). He praises her for vowing to know no other man — they had been faithful to each other throughout their liaison, IV 2 — while he himself showed no such self-control, but promptly took another concubine. His never mentioning the woman's name is also sometimes held against him. But this, surely, is to his credit; he was writing his own confessions, not hers, and it would have been a gross breach of her privacy to publish her name to his readers in Carthage. Whatever his critics may think, she had clearly been devoted to him, and he to her.

I don't suppose the Southern Baptist Convention has taken to this guy to task, have they?

from wife’s refusal to submit to husband.»

Bruce Ware — a Southern Baptist scholar – argued that one reason that men abuse their wives is because women rebel against their husband’s God-given authority:

“And husbands on their parts, because they’re sinners, now respond to that threat to their authority either by being abusive, which is of course one of the ways men can respond when their authority is challenged - -or, more commonly, to become passive, acquiescent, and simply not asserting the leadership they ought to as men in their homes and in churches,” Ware said from the pulpit of Denton Bible Church in Denton, Texas.

Amazing, always nice to know that you are still hacked.

q: Why would anyone invade the private life of someone else?

a: FYI, THEY MUST HAVE TRUST ISSUES.

AWESOME!!!! NOT!!!

Mohler's comments on pastor vs President are pitiful hypocrisy!!

Evidently, from watching the local 3ABN, God wants us to drill for every drop of oil and not worry about global warming or anything we do to mess up Creation. The het romance that has become a tenet of American protestantism (despite its very much later revelation and tradition) makes a mess of faith and of the country.

Without it, we couldn't go to war so thrillingly, or pray for victory, either:
http://www.lone-star.net/mall/literature/warpray.htm

Paul was a bigoted, misogynist prude. Anyone who quotes passages from his epistles as being inspired by God need to review their basic beliefs.

He could not even get the timing of Jesus' second coming correct but it did serve to dramatically increase both the conversion rate and the coffer inputs.

Hmmm, contemporary preachers/priests/ fortune tellers/Mormon "profiteers" still use that con game!!!

I fully agree that God,in His Word, has given men the responsibility to lead in the home(Eph 5:22-23, Col. 3:18)and the church (1 Tim 2:12-14, 3;14-16). For women to usurp being the head in the home or to have authority over or teach men in the church (or men submitting to this)is simply disobedience to the Sovereign's command, no matter how much Scripture twisting egalitarians engage in. The dilemma is because male headship is derived from the created order(1 Tim 2:12-14)isn't there is something askew (unfeminine and demasculating) in women leading men in society e.g., in the world of work or govermnment. I know there are no direct commands in Scripture(that I know of)regarding this as there are concerning the family and church, but does it not logically follow that something is not quite right about this?

MarkF: “I used to be dismayed at the hatred of Christianity that is shown on the Washington Post's website.

Now, with faith, I don't care. Christ and his Church will triumph, as she always does. Look at the Jews. By human reasoning they should be an extinct people and a dead religion, dead along with the Hittites and Sumerians. But their God is the living God and they're still here in spite of all obstacles.

The truth of God will prevail, when all the homosexual activists are gone, when all the atheists are long forgotten. God's truth will not pass away, but will be glorified in the new Jerusalem, a new earth, when Christ's Kingdom comes.” September 9, 2008 12:04 AM

**********************
Had you read the entire Bible you would have noticed that God "grafted" in the Gentiles because the Jews were "a stiff-necked" and "rebellious" people that served and worshiped idols of graven images. They were and are not true, faithful, and to devoted to God because they “denounce” Christ, God’s son.

The New Jerusalem, here on Earth, will be filled with Gentiles that have been and are faithful to God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, despite the obstacles.

What a selfish, low-down, dirty ploy and accusation against a true believer. Had I read this before I would have adverted a previous post. Sickening

"He (Paul) feared the turn-on of women's voices as much as the sight of their hair and skin..... At one point he even suggests that the sight of female hair might distract any angel in church attendance (1 Cor. 11:10). Professor Bruce Chilton in his book, Rabbi Paul, pulls no punches in criticizing one of the founders of Christianity. Basically Paul was a "prude".

And the following:

"In 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 Paul writes: “But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.” He goes on to say that “any woman who prays or prophesies” should keep her head covered, whereas a man should never cover his head, “since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.)”

In 1 Corinthians 14:33-35, Paul gives us the famous injunction, “… women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.” This theme is taken up again in 1 Timothy 2:11-15, where women are instructed to dress modestly and to keep silent in church: “For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.”

Ephesians 5:21-32 is the passage that is read at every Orthodox marriage ceremony, so it’s already quite well known to us. This is the passage in which women are told to be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord, which Paul repeats briefly in his letter to the Colossians (3:18). The husband, Paul explains, “is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.” While women are to be subject to their husbands, so men are to love their wives “as their own bodies.” “This is a great mystery,” Paul says, “and I take it to mean Christ and the church.”

Simply add Paul's (and the pseudo Pauls) thinking about women to the list of flaws in the foundations of Christianity and a major reason why women have been discriminated against for these so many, many years.

Hmmm, do you think maybe that Mohammed/Mahound's scribes simply enhanced Paul's thinking about women when they wrote the koran??? Absolutely!!!!

Brambleton:

Where's the brutality I'm so used to seeing you guys use to subjugate blacks, women, gays?

Calling me an idiot, wow that really hurts!

Freedom,

You're an idiot. Is that spelled out sufficiently for you?

Brambleton:

I think what CCNL meant by "superiority over women" is that temporary feeling you get after you give a woman a good beating to compensate for your feelings of gross inferiority and self-loathing, you sexist, racist, homophobe!

Does that spell it out sufficiently for you?

Can you point that out to me in the New Testament?

CCNL,

First, I must profess my thanks for sparing us from the usual cut and paste post that you typically hang on these threads.

Second, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "superiority over women." Maybe you could let me know what you (or I guess Dr. Crossan) mean by that?

Thanks.

L.Kurt,

You stated, "This statement would disqualify anyone from holding a position of authority in a diverse community."

--> Not sure how exactly that would happen. Could you provide greater detail?

Furthermore, you wrote, "We might see such people as uneducated and bigoted, where they are absolutely unable to consider a variety of opinions that may conflict with their own."

--> If I am understanding your comment correctly, this statement is absurd. As a Baptist, I have an "opinion" based on my spiritual beliefs. But I also live in a secular world with a secular media, and survived a secular education. Therefore, wouldn't I have a much more well-rounded "opinion" then that of someone who is completely illiterate when it comes to Christian theology?

Finally, you said, "We are living in a New Dark Ages."

--> I'm confused. Most secularists that I read and listen to believe that we are marching toward some grand utopia as a result of the Enlightenment. But you consider us to be in the Dark Ages. Could you expound further?

"Where the New Testament speaks, we are bound."

This statement would disqualify anyone from holding a position of authority in a diverse community. It might even proclaim unfitness for participation in polite society, where that society has an understanding of reality that goes substantially beyond that of the New Testament. We might see such people as uneducated and bigoted, where they are absolutely unable to consider a variety of opinions that may conflict with their own. It is a sign of our times that this kind of behavior is accepted widely in public. We are living in a New Dark Ages.

Mohler's comments ooze with the stupidity of "prude" Paul as he continues the same 2000 years of men declaring their superiority over women in matters of religion which spills over into all the aspects of life. When is this going to stop???

Mohler in many respects reminds us of that famous saying:

"Fools are those who have read and follow only the bible. God cannot be proud of such lazy creations!!!!"

I just wanted to add that about 4 years ago, I attended a conference where Dr. Mohler was speaking (I didn't know much about Him at the time). I was personally wrestling with the issue of wives working outside the home and what "headship" means. My friend and I asked him that if his views on roles within the church were so strong, how did that relate to society in general? And he really, truly did say many similar things to what he is saying here now. That the Bible does not address the role of women in government, and that if a woman ran for President and was the best candidate, he would have no problem voting for her.

This was long before Sarah Palin ever entered the picture - and with Hillary Clinton in it. He was true to his beliefs then as I believe he is now. Disagree with him if you want, but he is not a hypocrite ...

As an Evangelical Christian I am astounded by Mohler's absolute hypocrisy. It's statements like this that drives people from the church. Any woman who says outlaw abortion is experienced and should be President or VP. If you don't believe in choice, you better stay home and raise your children and be subordinate to your husband. Palin on the ticket made the decision for me. I'll do all I can to get Obama-Biden elected.

The point is, if southern baptists can't get the big issues like slavery right, what's the point of discussing the bible and its meaning? Either you got Jesus's message or you didn't. For people like southern baptists to have gotten it so wrong for so long, where is your credibility for speaking about anything to do with morality? Seriously, justify your existence as a church. I don't see it, unless you claim to be a fascist, racist religion. Then I get it. What makes you think you have the right to decide if women get equal rights, or if gays get equal rights? You have no moral authority to speak on these issues. Plus, I thought America stood for democracy, not christianity. So you want to use your racist, fascist version of christianity to decide who among us gets to enjoy the rights of democracy and you wonder why I have a problem with that? Please explain!

Here's my response to Dr. Mohler:
http://friendsofjustice.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/the-devil-in-the-armor/

There's an hour of my life I'll never have back. The majority of the comments on this site make me wonder just who in the world I am. If the comments even remotely define normal, I'll be glad to be abnormal.

There are hard questions to come to grips with for anyone who believes the Bible is inspired. Christians are people who openly admit that they are sinners, that everyone has blind spots to truth, and that we need something beyond ourselves.

No one wants to be a hypocrite (at least I hope not), and I think most people would say that they would change their beliefs if they can be shown where it is truly wrong. I know there are things wrong in my theology that I hold to currently, and I would change them if I only knew where. No one holds onto a belief that they know is wrong.

But for those Christians who are angry and so negative about the world and non-Christians view - what else do you expect? We have been told that no one can understand spiritual truths unless God removes the effects of sin from their thinking. You can't get mad at a cat for meowing - that's what they do. You can wish they would bark all day, but the change into a new creature can only be done by God.

Having said that, the particular issues discussed here are not as cut and dried as some would like. There are verses that seem to limit the public teaching role in the church to men, and if we hold the Bible to be inspired, we must grapple with that. At the same time, most Christians agree there is some amount of "cultural standards" that may not hold exactly the same way today. Like women covering their heads ... It is not as easy as some conservatives would like it to be to figure out what living by faith looks like exactly - and I think God meant it that way. The Pharisees liked to have everything regulated by a rule, and look how Jesus told them they missed the whole point. But to wash away everything you don't like by cultural relativising or dismissing it outright seems to be taking your sinful, personal opinions and preferences and judging what God has given us by them.

For those who don't believe the Bible is God's Word, well, have a good life - I hope God is pleased with you. I don't know how to even begin discussing issues with someone who has no objective standard (even if foggy) outside themselves.

For those who do not believe in God, I doubt there's much to say at all. The Bible rarely adresses the concerns of atheist except to say "The fool has said in his heart, There is no god." And that everyone is without excuse before God because of the evidence in creation.

As for such issues as slavery, while it is true the Bible never comes out and condemns it, there is enough there to realize slavery was doomed from the inside of the Christian religion and wherever it got a foothold. Unfortunately, it has taken the human heart millenia to get there. When Paul regulated slavery, he provided a new basis for relations - not just owner to property, but brother to brother. Slavery was doomed. It is also an interesting "political strategy" to not actively oppose the empire, which humanly speaking, would have been doom for Christianity, but to transform it by transforming individuals, one at a time. Christians should see that trying to do "top-down" morality doesn't work - although Christians have every right to be in office and run and put good laws into effect - and that "bottom-up" morality can't be stopped. One-on-one, multiplied millions of times ...

Christians who preach hate are wrong. But truth is uncompromising and unyielding ...

Very good article. I have already begun hearing this issue thrown around, especially at a time when even conservative, main-line churches are struggling with the question of women in leadership.

For many years in America many/most of the teachings of Christianity was accepted and acceptable. The Church hardly had to struggle with being "unwanted", left out or criticized because of being different. But today I can't help but see the similarities between the Church and the nerdy kid in high school that always got picked last for the team (and then only because it was a forced option). Many times the odd person out will do almost anything to not feel rejected. Of course, the issues are more complex then a simple inferiority complex, but the Church would do well to reevaluate what master she really does serve and then to count the cost.

Didn't the Southern Baptist Church split from the main Baptist church back in the 1840s because it wanted to use the Bible to justify slavery?

"The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) is a United States-based, mostly conservative[1] Christian denomination. The name "Southern" stems from its having been founded and rooted in the South. The SBC became a separate denomination in 1845 in Augusta, Georgia, following a regional split with northern Baptists over the issue of slavery in the US South."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist_Church

"The SBC did not officially renounce using the Bible as a justification for slavery and white supremacy until June 20, 1995 when they issued a formal 'Resolution on Racial Reconciliation.'" Ibid.

In other words, these people are long-time racists in America. What validity and credibility could they possibly have on any issue at all, much less anything to do with morality? You've got to be kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These people reflect the devil's work more than Jesus Christ's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why would you give credence to any word they have to say???????????

Let's be honest here- the Fundamentalists smell power looming and will happily change their mind if it gains them some political pull. But this is not new. Fundamentalists (of every stripe) have always only and ever been interested in power- which is why they deserve the same condemnation as the ‘Theologians of Glory’ Luther so mightily excoriated and why they are anything but ‘Theologians of the Cross’.

The problem with that is that most Christian don't take God's word at face value. Many read and interpet it based upon thier own private interpertation.

The Bible has over the centuries and decades been distorted to promote the denominational structure of what we know of the church as we see it today. God is not a God to where you can put a denoninational label on.

I challenge any minister, pastor, bishop, preist, and or apostal to show in the bible where Jesus associated or attached himself to a particular denomination.

The guidelines that God instructed his people to live are clearly laid out from Genesis to Revelation the problem is that fanatical denoniation has put a label on faith and worship.

America has turned from God and now worship the high profile pastors and the big multimillion dollar mega churches.

We no longer believe the absolute word of God because we are afaid that we will offend the many different activist and special intrest groups which in turns will decrease the number of members which will effect the amount of tithes coming in.

God destroyed Sodom and Gehmorrah for the same abominations that we practice today. But now we have gay Pastors, and Bishop in the pulpit talking thus said the lord.

In the Acts it gives clear uncut instructions as the way God ordained and established the marriage and the home, and the roles of both the man and the woman which is exceptable to him.

But todays Christians will tell you in a heartbeat- Well that was back then and I'm independant and I can think for my self.Both men and women

Little do they know, they have place themselves in open rebellion against God's laws and principles.

As far as politics in the Church. Jesus Christ said plain and simple " Render onto Ceaser the things that are Ceaser and unto God the things that are God".

When we stop trying to change God's word to benifit our way of living and except it for face value then we will be able to here from God again.
But as for now because we have turned away from our first love and that is the word of truth which is God. Then God has turned a deaf ear to a people.

These are not my words people they are scripture and any pastor, minister, Rabbi, or any other man or woman of God that really believes the word of God for excactly what it is can agree.

We need to decide are we going to worship God in Spirit and in truth or are we going to worship God for the sake of independant freedom.

Read you Bible every Nation that sought to gain independant freedom without trusting in the absolute word of God was eventually destroyed by God.

Palin's former pastor, Tim McGraw, says that like many Pentecostal churches, some members speak in tongues, although he says he's never seen Palin do so. Church member Caroline Spangler told CNN, "When the spirit comes on you, you utter things that nobody else can understand ... only God can understand what is coming out of our mouths."
-----
What is Pentecostal Church?

Do we really want a woman in VP chair, heartbeat away to be President of United States of America if she speaks in tongues or gets carried away by spirits?

fr Mark F:

>...The truth of God will prevail, when all the homosexual activists are gone, ...

Believe it or not, there ARE gay Christians, and we will not "be gone" just because YOU want us to.

"Feminists are bewildered and frustrated by the fact that the vast majority of women find their greatest joy and fulfillment in the roles of wife and mother."

I have never encountered such a feminist myself. The issue isn't about whether the roles of wife and mother have any merit. The issue is that no one should determine for another what is an appropriate role according to gender - no other person, no religion, no community, no government, no political party, and no society.

"religious freedom means we can both worship in a church that reflects our views"

That's true in practice. In principle, however, a religion cannot claim exclusive absolute truth and still honor religious freedom. Such claims deny the individual's right to follow his or her own religious beliefs. In the view of such religions, other beliefs are not only wrong but also evil, and so are the people who follow other beliefs.

BY: The JO{CTAN, KHATAn, Eberu Race of America, 20013+
---

Att: WiTCHOfWESTGHENT, a PAGAN/WiCAAN/SPiRiTUALiST @ 9:47A,

Ye sliped & sayth: "This view (along with many others) is why I left the Southern Baptist and became a Wiccan. Blessed Be, y'all!.."

Note: WiTCH etc.., It's because (converting or hoping into another Pre-Apocaltarianity system) yYE (you & World) are stll a 'Split-Minded' Pre-Apocalyptarian. Ye are Zero Apocalyptarian thinker! And,

ther's a 80% chance that Ye are a "NON-STRAiGHT" character! aka A-QUEER-NATiONAl or Lover Of!

Note again: Ye are allso 94% CELTiC, NORDiC, BAVARiA, ANGLO-SAXON: A mostly "WHiTE" & Vile Peoples calling the others Black!

-- Thank-a/o-SCHAME!

Want to know why America is coming under bold new challenges from China and Russia? China all but dictating our bailout of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and Russia's recent intervention in Georgia and the increasing boldness ofthe Russian President's rhetoric, all point to one inescable conclusion. They--and many other world leaders have calculated that America is in decline, that her people are no longer sufficiently educated to make wise electoral decisions and that in general, America is in the throes of cultural, political, social, institutional and most importantly, intellectual decline.

And guess what? They are right. The rise of Sarah Palin is simply one more example of just how ill equpped the American electorate is in the choosing of leaders and statesmen who have the intellect, temperament and quality to represent this nation on the global stage. The very fact that this woman--an evangelical Christian who believes the earth is only 5 thousand years old and who has lied publicly several times since being selected by a man many are now thinking may be affected by senility--is now being taken seriously is proof enough that this has got to be one of the dumbest voting electorates this nation has ever been saddled with.

We have had Tom Brokaw's Grestest Generation. If he is still around and writing in the next decades, he might want to consider this a the Dumbest Generation.

The rise of Fundamentalism in the United States is not a sign of spiritual awakening. It is the manifestation of this country's spiritual emptiness. Organized Religion is, apart from its very laudable messages of compassion, a relic of the past, a quick fix for those who do not have the time, or intellect to apply themselves to the truth, as it is revealed not in a 2000 year-old text, but by History and Science. If even one of the Christian posters here were to spend a bit of time studying the two, they would soon realize that they are being used. That they are being denied the very freedom and happiness that they so desperately pursue, laboring in the shadow of fear which is the final and ultimate lifeblood of a dying faith. Life doesn't offer much consolation to our oppressed, overburdened citizenry but Evangelical Christianity has become the quick-fix for a troubled society. A society that is about to experience social problems on a scale that will make 9/11 look like a picnic. That said, the only sort of person who could possibly believe that a mysogynist text written 2000 years ago could have any relevance in the modern world is another of the legion of soul-empty Americans, in deep denial of reality, looking out nervously atop the garbage heap of materialism which put them there in the first place.

This view (along with many others) is why I left the Southern Baptist and became a Wiccan. Blessed Be, y'all!

Women are not to teach or lead men spiritually; that is what the Bible teaches, no question about it. You ether choose to obey or you don't. The great thing about this nation is that you can go to a church that does not follow this teaching and I can go to one that does and we can both enjoy a woman as our next VP. There is no conflict and religious freedom means we can both worship in a church that reflects our views. This is something I am thankful for every day and pray that some day all nations will be able have the freedoms we take for granted.

We left our old church when they hired female pastor. It was a blessing because the new church is outstanding in every way. We do not judge those in the old church. But the fact is that they are ignoring the Bible. Since leaving I've realized that they pretty much ignore the Bible in many areas. This should be no surprise because when you discount one area in the Bible you've basically discounted the whole book. At that point you've put your own views above those in scripture and have by actions said to the world that this book is not the actual Word of God. Or you've appointed yourself a god. Once they have eaten this fruit they think their eyes have been opened and that they know what is good or evil apart from the Word of God in the scriptures. This is the original sin. At that point. you can make up the rules as you go along for you are like God.

And this is what goes on today. Those who don't need to follow the Bible know good and evil apart from the Bible. They create their own personal brand of religion that says anything goes based on not what God says but based on their own perceived wisdom to know good and evil inspite of what is in God Word.

Genesis 3:4

4 But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die.
5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate.

So here, in brief, is Augustine's thesis:

i) All human beings, female just as much as male, are made according to the image of God in that component of humanity where there is no distinction of sex, namely the mind or spirit (mens, animus). We mustn't forget that Augustine like most of his contemporaries was a Platonist.

ii) Paul's remark in 1 Cor 11:7 about man being the image and glory of God, while woman is the glory of man, is a real difficulty for Augustine, precisely because it seems to contradict Gen 1:27, and Augustine is unwilling to do what Clark says 'the Fathers' in general usually do, namely take this verse of Paul at its face value to the neglect of Gen 1:27.

iii) The difficulty can be met by treating 'man' and 'woman' in this verse as having symbolic rather than literal value; the purely bodily distinction of sex in them — in Adam and Eve, because Paul, as Augustine realises, is in fact commenting on Gen 2:18-23, not on Gen 1:26-28 — can be taken as symbolic of a distinction of functions in the human mind, mens, (which is common to all human beings, of either sex); and then observing that it is only in the higher mental function of contemplating eternal things (symbolized by Adam/man) that the image of God is to be fully realised, while the lower mental function, of the practical ordering of temporal things (symbolized by Eve/woman), bears a remoter likeness to God, in which the full image as such cannot be realized. Bear in mind, by the way, that for Augustine the image of God is not so much something human beings are in their minds or spirits, a mere datum, as something they are intended to become, or to actualise, a project. The image, he says, consists — it is an image of the Trinity — of the three mental acts of remembering, understanding and loving self, moving on to its supreme form, fully realisable only in the next life, of remembering, understanding and loving God.

Now that women's minds are as capable of the higher contemplative function as are men's, and therefore of realising, of actualising the divine, trinitarian image in themselves, Augustine of course had no doubt at all. You only have to read what he says about the experience he shared with his mother as they looked out of a window together at Ostia shortly before her death, to be convinced of that ("Confessions", IX,l0). But here is what he says in his "Literal Commentary on Genesis", III,22:

"Some people have suggested that it was now (Gen 1:27) that the human mind was made, while the human body came later, when scripture says, 'And God fashioned man from the slime of the earth' (Gen 2:7); so that where it says 'he made' (1:26), it refers to the spirit, while 'he fashioned' (2:7) refers to the body. But they fail to take into account that male and female could only be made with respect to the body. While indeed it may be acutely argued [as by himself, in On the Trinity, XII; EH] that the human mind, in which the human being is made to God's image and which is a kind of rational life, has two functions: the contemplation of eternal truth and the management of temporal affairs; and that thus you get a kind of male and female, the one part directing, the other complying; it is still the case that the mind is only rightly called the image of God in that function by which it adheres in contemplation to the unchangeable truth. It is to symbolize or represent this point that the apostle Paul says that it is only the man who is the image and glory of God; 'but the woman', he says, 'is the glory of the man' (1 Cor 11:7).

"Thus while that which is to be observed in the one mind of the interior person is symbolized by two persons who are outwardly of different sex in the body; still the woman too, who is female in the body, she too is being renewed in the spirit of her mind, where there is neither male nor female, to the recognition of God according to the image of him who created her (Rom 12:2, Eph 4:23, Col 3:10, Gal 3:28). Women, after all, are not excluded from this grace of renewal and the refashioning of God's image, although their bodily sex symbolizes something else, which is why only the man is called the image and glory of God. In the same way too, in the original creation of the human race, because the woman too was human, she obviously had a mind and a rational one at that, in respect of which she too was made to the image of God."

To sum up: Augustine sees the distinction of sex as something secondary, comparatively unimportant. It is as human beings with rational minds, capable of contemplating eternal truth (i.e. God), that all of us, male and female alike, are made to the image of God.

The comments by readers don't display.

You know, you really should read the whole bit. Because then you see where the subject matter is about polygamous marriages (one man, multiple wives) and that women are defined as being subordinate. Not to mention the "happy twist" that says, in effect, "Why look! God made it ONE man and ONE woman, but really it's better if it's ONE man and AS MANY WOMEN as possible." And what is WITH the new math? It's easier for one to have dominion over many, rather than many to rule over one? Why not just say, "We like it! We're bigger and stronger than you, and if you fight us on it, we'll beat the sh*t out of you and then refer to our little book telling us it's okay!"

Bah. Quote follows:

Now, if to the God of our fathers, who is likewise our God, such a plurality of wives had not been displeasing for the purpose that lust might have a fuller range of indulgence; then, on such a supposition, the holy women also ought each to have rendered service to several husbands. But if any woman had so acted, what feeling but that of a disgraceful concupiscence could impel her to have more husbands, seeing that by such licence she could not have more children?
That the good purpose of marriage, however, is better promoted by one husband with one wife, than by a husband with several wives, is shown plainly enough by the very first union of a married pair, which was made by the Divine Being Himself, with the intention of marriages taking their beginning therefrom, and of its affording to them a more honourable precedent. In the advance, however, of the human race, it came to pass that to certain good men were united a plurality of good wives, - many to each; and from this it would seem that moderation sought rather unity on one side for dignity, while nature permitted plurality on the other side for fecundity. For on natural principles it is more feasible for one to have dominion over many, than for many to have dominion over one. Nor can it be doubted, that it is more consonant with the order of nature that men should bear rule over women, than women over men. It is with this principle in view that the apostle says, "The head of the woman is the man;" and, "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands." So also the Apostle Peter writes: "Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord." Now, although the fact of the matter is, that while nature loves singleness in her dominations, but we may see plurality existing more readily in the subordinate portion of our race; yet for all that, it was at no time lawful for one man to have a plurality of wives, except for the purpose of a greater number of children springing from him. Wherefore, if one woman cohabits with several men inasmuch as no increase of offspring accrues to her therefrom, but only a more frequent gratification of lust, she cannot possibly be a wife, but only a harlot.

Once firm supporters of religious liberty Baptists have become a danger to this nation.

If we believe that Jesus Christ lived his life as a model for us, then we must believe that John 6:14,15, and John 18:36 indicate that true Christians of any gender do not get involved in politics in any way shape or form.

It's not anti-woman to observe that people who bring children into the world have signed up for a specific responsibilities. In Palin's case five specific responsibilities. Both parents work away from the home. Who is raising the children when their mother is away from home as governor, or vp candidate, and the father works away from home on the North Slope of Alaska for weeks at a time, How can there be no link between absent parents and kids who don't understand the life-long responsibility of bring a child into this world. Everyone who contributes eggs or sperm to procreation "signs a contact" with God to love, teach and protect the children he entrusted to them. I object to these kids being used by the campaign as props rather than nurtured by their parents to get through this moment in time in a health way. If your dog can sit, roll over, play dead etc. it's evidence someone taught it something. If children don't know how to be in the world, it's evidence no one taught them to behave. Kids first.

The Southern Baptist position on women leadership in the church is taken from I Corinthians 14:34-35 and the verse tells women to be silent in church. "Women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to spe3ak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says. If there is anything they desire to know, let tyhem ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." Yet all the Southern Baptist churches allow women to speak in churches--just not preaching behind the pulpit. Hypocrisy.

-
Att: A Useless Institution @ 7:31A
-

Please Knowth, that the Modern? Christian Baptists

[now Organized as "Evilgelicals of America", whom today own 68% of GNP, thanks to Jesus Lover & Nepotist Robber barron G.W. Bush(s) & Co.]

or their "Governmental-Fed", 'Faith Based' Loyal pool", ALL 'Worship' & 'Enforce' their (not OUR) Most EViL Story ever Told:

Their (not our) nasty Mozues, Jezeus, MuhammadaZeues "DRUNKiN [RACiST] NOAH" Satans Song & Storys!

AMAZiNG, NO () GRACE!

--- W-A-R-N-i-N-G:

They {Evangelicals & Mormons; via their (not our) Judeo-Moses, Judeo-Christ, but not as Judeo-Muhammad Lovers or Judeo Hindu lovers or Judeo-Buddhist lovers, are

"inatic Armageddon Lovers" in Fact}.

WAR or DiViSiON on Earth They (not Us) will Usher-in! DO-NOT-VOTE_FOR-THEM! aka NiCOLAiTAN(s) or MAGOG'd Nationals!

They (not Us) hath a ARMAGEDDON, 'Split-Minded' Mentality. A Dangerous Pre-Apocalyptic Dellusional Cocktail! DO-NOT VOTE FOR-THEM! Ms. PALiN & Mr. McCAiN. They are "MAGOG"d, not "GOG"d!

inSTEAD, they (Organised Religio MAFiOSO Chieftans & ARMY, Leutenants etc..) Must Be Destroyed, in U.S.A., SECULARLY, in sweet sweet AMERiCA , the one that they want to Sour! Once & For All! This is the Battle!

Their Bible, not O.U.R., must be illegalized! This is the Prophecy! No Secret about this fight against Satans Leaderships, Ye O.U.R. Reality!

Note: These Folks are in DENiAL To Selves, Friens & Children! So What makes them (Evangelicals etc..)

-- JESUS is Not LORD! JESUS is Not god! Jesus is Dead as ANY Anscestor !

Thank-o-Schame!

Very insightful article! I am impressed with how honest and open Al Mohler is about his own reservations. He also makes a striking point by exposing the double-standard inherent in Sally Quinn's analysis. Would feminist pundits like Quinn ever apply this strict standard to a Democratic candidate? From can be seen from the moral argument on Palin's ability to lead as well: If the fact that her daughter made a mistake and is with child should disqualify her, why were we told years back that the multiple affairs of Bill Clinton had no bearing at all on his ability to lead? Mohler, however, is very gracious in the way he alludes to this double-standard and his kindness reflects well on Evangelical Christians.

Some historical context: the Southern Baptist Church was founded during the struggle to outlaw slavery. Founded in support of slavery and on the core belief that slavery of black human beings was the will of god.

That was their raison d'etre and genesis. Slavery. Oppression. Violence. Lynchings. Power OVER others all in the name of God.

They don't exactly have a track record of social justice, liberty, freedom, civil rights. In fact, they have NO track record of liberty and justice for all.

You, Land and the So. Baptist Church continue to be hypocritical fear-based, anti-intellectual, woman-hating, racist, homophobic, sadistic, fascist authoritarians whose main purpose is patriarchal control of others because you are so full of insecurity, hate and fear.

Everything The Opposite of the authentic Jesus. I know. I grew up in your clutches. Luckily, there are other paths to actual truth, knowledge and enlightenment which don't involve the kinds of contortionist lies and distortions that are your daily bread.

Freedom for thee but not for me, eh? You liars can pull excuses and obfuscations out of your @ss in the guise of (man-written documents you call the bible) whenever it suits you.

You are part of what's killing America. Smug, self-righteous Pharisee. Liar.

Christianity?

Keep in mind that Pilate was a necessary accessory in the "rise" of JC. Without that crucifixion, where would we Christians be??

And JC an organizer?? Hardly!!! Paul did most of the organizing and original advertising. M, M, L, and J did the added embellishing and ad campaign raising a simple preacher man to deity status akin to the OT and Roman emperors campaign people. More necessary accessories!!!!

Christianity really should be named for The Five Voodoo Doctors with their changing of wine into blood and bread into living tissue and the raising of at least two dead people.

"When it came to the bridge to nowhere,I told the Congress 'thanks, but no thanks,'

(Ok, first I was for it- but I changed {I'm the change candidate} my mind and was against it when Congress threatened to pull funding- and i saw the opportunity to use the public outcry and it's inevitable demise to my advantage- and of COURSE I took the 369 MILLION dollars- I may be crazy, but I'm not THAT crazy!)

"That luxury jet was over the top. I put it on eBay."

(OK, no one bid on it- and I sold it to a private citizen, at a substantial loss.)

What? what? what? Is my lipstick smeared?

Christianity like Judaism and Islam is a blasphemous faith that insults God. Any adherent of Christianity is not qualified to be president. Let us honor God by not voting for Obama or McCain. Palin and Biden are irrelevant.

" I believe that she brings something unique, admirable, and urgently needed to this presidential race." Yeah like unique scripted lies. Where does this hypocrisy end? God doesn't do politics!!!

I used to be dismayed at the hatred of Christianity that is shown on the Washington Post's website.

Now, with faith, I don't care. Christ and his Church will triumph, as she always does. Look at the Jews. By human reasoning they should be an extinct people and a dead religion, dead along with the Hittites and Sumerians. But their God is the living God and they're still here in spite of all obstacles.

The truth of God will prevail, when all the homosexual activists are gone, when all the atheists are long forgotten. God's truth will not pass away, but will be glorified in the new Jerusalem, a new earth, when Christ's Kingdom comes.

"My fellow Americans,

It is with great regret, you know, that I concede this election to Mr. McCain, and congratulate him on his hearty win. It has been a tough, you know, battle throughout these past 18 months, but I grant that I have lost, and with that, I slowly wonder off into obscurity, along with the likes of Gore, Edwards, Kerry, and other wannabees like me..."

Uh, oh.... ooops. You were listening to that. Ahhh, well I'm just practicing my speech for the night of November 4th. Pay no attention to me....

"Feminists are bewildered and frustrated by the fact that the vast majority of women find their greatest joy and fulfillment in the roles of wife and mother."

I don't know who conducts your polling, but your claim that the "vast majority" of women are happiest doing what you think they ought to be doing is a spot-on example of why religions were developed. Created by men who claimed to speak for God, religion offered them a way to exercise control over massive populations without having to fight a war and take prisoners (although a great deal of both has been done in the name of religion).

Sorry to break it to you, pal, but all those gals out there cooking, cleaning, and raising the kids aren't doing it for joy and fulfillment.

You guys really have yourselves brainwashed.

Palin Country

by John Allemang. Poetic justice.

Please call us rednecks, 'cause we're proud
to be so rude and rough and loud,
And act in ways elitists think
Proves that we've had too much to drink
In some dead-end Alaskan dive
When ,dude, it just shows we're alive.
We love our church, our kids, our beer;
Can tell you right down to the year
That God put Man upon the earth,
Know life starts well ahead of birth,
Don't give a damn about the arts,
And stay away from foreign parts
Until the moment that we're sent
As John McCain's vice-president.

The great thing, when your neck is red?
Nobody cares what's in your head.
The voters seem to like them dumb,
So why not pick a hockey mum
Who hunts and prays and procreates
To govern these United States?
If you can drive a snowmobile,
The people, bless them, think you're real.
And in the end, who needs a brain?
Just tell your kids they must abstain,
Pretend that when your rule's ignored
It's some great gift sent by the Lord,
And proves you'll go to any length
to make each redneck fault a strength.

From The Globe And Mail. Canada. Sep 6.2008

It's amazing how people can read between the lines and implore the writings of the "Old Testament" to serve their needs. The Old Testament was written for the JEWS before the time of CHRIST. Money is the root of all EVIL and each and everyone of sunday bible thumpers need to look in the Mirror and ask themselves: Am i serving the LORD or myself and self interests. GOD gives us a choice to serve him or not to serve him. HE believes in the separation of church and state. (give to god what is his and to Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Perfect example.

Thank you for reserving your atitudes to yourself and others of your church. It is big of you to accept that a woman can be the leader of the world's only superpoer. A more relevant issue would be how effective a leader can a woman be who accepts servility in her private life. Do we want someone to be president that has such low self-esteem and submits to misogynist male leadership? She certainly is no Hillary.

I agree with Sally. Mohler is hypocritical in his stance on women in the church. Anyone can intrepret passages of the Bible and twist their meanings. Remember, the Bible has been recreated from a different time period and written in a language which has evolved over time. Too bad Mohler's thinking hasn't. He's stuck in the 50's believing that women should tend to the house while men go out in the world and earn the bread. It's too bad that he's fighting a losing battle. The church is all he has to hold on too. Gays are no longer closed in the closet. Abortion is accepted by the majority. Whites marry blacks. Within a generation or two his small minded beliefs will be history.

R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is a theologian. What is a theologian? A theologian is a fool who studies foolishness.

sunrise@up.net

Yo people, the economy is tanking between government rescues and y'all decided now's the time for a theocratic discourse on the battle of the sexes. Wow.

I would have expected a greater effort at logic from Mr. Mohler:

" This conviction was not invented by Southern Baptists. It was, and now remains, the honest conviction held by most Christians around the world, and for good reason.

Our confession of faith does not speak to the appropriateness of women serving in political office. It does speak to the priority of motherhood and responsibilities in the home, but it does not specify any public role that is closed to women. The reason for this is simple -- the New Testament does not speak to this question in any direct sense."

Equal yet servient?

You probably think you have to beat a woman so that she knows you love her.

And I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that you'd be saying "a woman's place is in the home" if Hillary was the Democratic candidate.

Now that's hypocrisy we can believe in. Oh, and sexism.

Why does the Post publish this trash?

Quoting from the article: Furthermore, I believe that women are given unique abilities and gifts for these callings -- affirmed by common grace and common sense.

If that's the case, why are women more likely to be physically and emotionally abusive to children than men? (Men win for sex abuse which is a statistically lower form of child abuse overall.)

Is there no cure for JJ & CCNL? They make reading these posts really painful sometimes - especially JJ or whatever avatar he/she is currently posting under. At least CCNL makes sense - although he/she is the king of cut and paste.

--
Time To Destroy them Nicolaitans (Pre-Apocalyptarians, Enemys) & Bust-up Their Bibles!

Att: R E C, @10:45A,

Ye are a reck!

Ye sayth, "..Christians are SMARTER now than they were and now they are good-enough to vote and hold-office.."

Note: Yes, they , aka NiCOLAiTAN(s) or Pre-Apocalyptarian-National(s), hath

Gotten 'better', not Smarter, at "SiTUATiONALY LYiNG" AND

gotten Better, not Smarter, in the Art of "Doing & DENYiNG" and

gotten better, not smarter, by being Professional via licensed Jealousy

[with Divinity Degrees, which Moses, Jesus, Muhammd, Vyasa & Gautama did not posses]

.. in the art of "WORD MERCHANDiZiNG", especially Via SECULAR approved 'FCC' Televangelical Broadcasting & permissions!

Note: These BOLLiXERS who BOLLiX (knowingly & Willfully) the unsuspecting 'Viewers' via FCC approved Airwaves, SHOULD BE ABOLiSHED! Note: It, airwaves belongs to Humanity not Church, is a SECULAR 'Privilige' & not-a-"Right!"

Spreading Pre-Apocalyptic Religio Tautalogy over SECULAR owned Airwave, is tantamount to mingling in STATE business by CHURCH. An UnAmerican Act! And talkin about an UnAmerica Act, lets throw the PATRiOT ‘UnAMERiCAN Act against them, in Federal/State Court Too! Plus RiCO Act!

Lets Start with Rick Warrens 4-Saddle Back CURCH(s) in California. And also Reprimand, by Fine, CNN for promoting Their Judeo-JESUS Religion (Not O.U.R.) on our , not their, FCC airwaves!

Time to slap the MOTHER OF HARLOTS [Church's] out of State[Secular Gov] Involvements!

Vote: REmove all U.S. I.R.S. 501c3 Tax-Exempt Status's to all them tribal Leaderships of them 'CORPORATE' Churches, Synagogues, Mosques, Temples..

Note: They all engage in "Religio-Mafiosos" Hanky Panky! Rick Warren should have the U.S. "RICO ACT" [Racquateering Corrupt 'Influence' Organization] thrown at him & his Crony’s for attempting to stage (Conspiracy) a National ‘Coup D At at’ of our Prezidential Running Mates! Hence

an attempt to Run or Influence such STATE elected Actors via Church Pulpit Legislation. Not from the Secular Court Bench into Submission by the much "Rich & Wealthy' & some Famous Christians of Lore Lovers via their Right, Middle & or Left ORGANiZATiONS, SIN-dicates!

This is Tantamount to instilling or chilling, Fear in the Candidates or shcamefully turning them , McCain & Obama, into tithe money PADERER's (beggers)! Tantamount to BRiBERY mixed with biblio terror! i.e., if they do not do this or 'promise?' to do that that they will not Win!? Imagine if Obama Did Not SHOW? or and McCAiN? {on Rabbi/Rev/Immam/Priest/Father "Rick Warrens Show"?}. Or is the Evangelical Stealing O.U.R. Secular Show?!

Note: Them Wolves [Churchs & their Leaderships] , who are worse than COMMUNiSTS, Hence OUR Government, not theirs hath been Compromised!, will have a Revelation Cometh Upon Them , like no other in MODERN History, When

DEMOCRAT Mr. BiDEN & Mr. OBAMA become elected! Then the Supreme Court, with O.U.R. help & direction, will illegalize, aka UN-BOLLiX, lots of them Evangelical Conspiracys!

That's the Price Them NiCOLAiTAN(s) {Evangelicals et al) will have to Pay for trying to Take over This Nation by Mostly Rich White-Crackers' "from the South", not North!

Stupid People + Money + JESUS + ARMAGEDDON = SATANiC Ways! A Dangerous Religio Cocktail.

Origianly posted But Jealously Deleted by Satans, September 8, 2008 11:59 AM

--
The Pre-Apocalyptic Bible, in Revelation sais a Woman Will lead the World/Nation:

As mentioned, exclusively at WAPO, 2 times before, that:

In the Book of REVELATiON: therein it Sais, that when the 144,000 [SEALED EC{LATARiAN REVELATiNG MiNiSTER on EARTH] are Complete, that then for a Millenium there will be Healing of Nations, world Peace etc..

Note: This is exactly OUR "EC{LAT-ARiAN" & "JO{KTAN"-ian Prophecy! Note, We are NOT "PELEG"ians!

iNCAMERA (Secret) , as "i" have been trying to tell you-ALL;

Only the JOC{TAN, aka KHATAN-NAtionals of America [Us] wil "iNHERiT" Space-Ship Earth, as "PRoMiSED" Us [EC{LATARiAN Nationalis USA] in all Ye 5-five Major iNFiXUS-BOOKS (Tenachs, Bibles, Qurans, Gitas, Scrutis, ...)!

Note: ONLY those EC{LATARiAN(s) whom Know the 3-three iNFiXusBooks [BiBLE, QURAN & GITA, as supplements], besides the "O.U.R.-B.O.T.", will be the '144,000-Chosen!"

PS: The Prophecy is almost Sealed!

important: vP. Palin is not She/Her as the chosen. So Wait untill 2013+ instead!

Ps: interestingly On his Blog, Moderator W.E. Elliot deleted this point. Guess he got Spooked?

--- note: According to John , the Revelator:

Who Are the 144,000?

1. John calls the 144,000, "servants," "servants the prophets," and "servants of God" in the book of Revelation. (Revelation 6:11, 7:3, 10:7, 19:2)

2. The four angels do not hurt Earth until the 144,000 are sealed. (Revelation 7:3)

3. The 144,000 will be the first to receive the seal of God. (Revelation 7:3) They will be presented to God as the firstfruits of the Great Tribulation. They will not be defiled with women and they will travel with Jesus wherever He goes. (Revelation 14:4)

4. Unlike the numberless multitude who will come out of the Great Tribulation, the 144,000 will be numbered. (Revelation 7:5-8, 9, 14)

5. The 144,000 will experience and endure the sufferings of Christ. They will be honored above the rest of the redeemed. No one else will be able to sing their song. (Revelation 14:1, 3)

6. No lie or falsehood will be found in the mouths of the 144,000. (Revelation 14:5)

7. The 144,000 will visibly wear the names of the Father and Son on their foreheads throughout eternity. (Revelation 14:1; Revelation 22:3, 4)

8. The 144,000 will be Jews, descendants of Abraham. (Revelation 7:5-8)

Now that these eight specifications have been summarized, a few remarks about each one may prove to be helpful.

Specification #1 – Are the 144,000 "Servants of the Prophets?"

John calls the 144,000, "servants," "servants the prophets," and "servants of God" in the book of Revelation. (Revelation 6:11, 7:3, 10:7, 19:2) Observe John’s use of language in the following texts (For the sake of clarity, I have inserted a few words in these verses and enclosed them in brackets, but especially notice the words I have emphasized with bold print.):

1. Fifth Seal: Revelation 6:11 "Then each of them [the martyrs] was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed."

2. The Delay: Revelation 7:3, 4 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God. Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."

3. The Seventh Trumpet: Revelation 10:7, 11:15, 18 "But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. . . . The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in Heaven, which said: ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever. . . .’ The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging [avenging the blood of] the dead [martyrs], and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great – and for destroying those who destroy the Earth."

4. The Third Bowl: Revelation 16:4-6 "The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: ‘You are just in these judgments, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged; for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets [the martyrs], and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.’ "

------

VOTE: Senator Hillary Clinton for PREZ & COL. Andrew BOCEViTCH for vPrez 2012+, wait n see.

Originally posted September 8, 2008 5:53 AM, but Jealously deleted

---
“IT” takes a Mind G-r-e-a-t-e-r than the Satans/Jinns/Devils/Kali to Defeat it, Guess What?
--
Att: N i C K : @ 8:15A

ye sayth,

".. Sarah Palin is an ignorant, paranoid nutjob..."

Note: Ye do know that she/Palin is a 'Cool', not paranoid, & rather smooth/operator? Satanic Folk know this.

Setting all that 'Prophey' aside, "i" still predict that it is not Sara Palin turn who will lead THiS/nation, nor the world, but "A COLLECTiON' OF 'Worldy Women Leading Ladys!"

Note: Under the U.S. JO{KTAN-ian "Holy Cosmic Feeling Faith" [Ho-Co-Fe-Fa] , a Religio, like a belief, but better thats Based on 'TRUTH' (not 'MYTH': includes hallucinations in Book of Revelation et al) And

Under the Apocalyptarians Bible, aka The "O.neU.niversal R.eligio B.ook O.f T.rans{Finity" [O.U.R.-B.O.T.] it surely pertains to the 'Fullfilment' of the "144,000 Sealed [ordained Apocalyptarians] Relationship Ministers" {SRM} of the EKCLAT-i-ON 'Ho-Co-Fe-Fa' SYSTEM.,

which is considered a "DiSPENSATiON" of a 'RAPTURE" in ITs own Right!

Hence The Difference Between Us [EKCLAHTARiANS, aka JO{KTANs] & Them [PRE-APOCALYPTARiANs, aka NiCOLAiTANs].

REMEMBER: We are living in the AGE of "The RELiGiON of Everything, before the SCiENCE of Everything!" And that,

According to the "APOCALYPTARiAN CREED", aka "EKCLAT-i-ON CREED" of the Hiol{i-No-Men,

that "MODERN [Seculari] MORALiTY is superior to any BiBLiCAL [Theocratic/monarchi] MORALiTY!"

---

VOTE: Abolish ALL, EVERY & ANY THEOCRACY & MONARCHY, on this Holy Cosmic, NEBULA-BUiLT, Ma/Pa-S.pace-S.hip Earth. aka S.S. GAiA, aka S.S. GEOiD, S.S. TELLUSng something else. TRUTH! Opposite of MYTH! This is our O.U.R.!

note: ye can add a"H" as a Prefix for 'H'oly, so to Think, FEEL & live & Love the "H.O.U.R." is O.K. too!

Not Mr. MOSES!
Not Mr. JESUS!
Not Mr. MUHAMMAD!
Not Mr. VYASA!
Not Mr. GAUTAMA! Guru, Swami etc..

Note: ALL God Players are MEN, not Ladys! So GOOD-RiDDENCE old time Religion(s) competing for a name for their man-made 'My god' System via a Syndrome' or Psychosis, instead of "O.U.R. G-D"

But REALiTY, aka 'TRANS{FiNiTY, can only be enjoyed, Only, via EC{LAT + "i" = LiFE/Photons Awareness! Yes! By Magnifying, Upholding & Making Honorable the H. 'O.U.R.-B.O.T.!

This liFE is A Miracle , never a Biblical/Quranic/Tenach/Gita.. Sin or Curse song or as if Re-birth or Birth/LiFE be some cosmic suffering ordeal here & there story! Not ARMAGEDDON storys’s

Goodbye JERUSALEM!
Goodbye VATiCAN!
Goodbye CANTERBURY!
Goodbye MECCA!
Goodbye NEPAL!
Goodbye TiBET!
Goodbye ARMESTAR! et al! Note: All are PRE-APOCALYPTiC Faith System(s).

Their god(s) is a He/Him an a She/her. But 'Not' O.U.R. innate G-D! aka Eponymous EC{LAT + "i" = LiFE/Photons awareness. ! OUR G-D is an “IT” being “iTSELF” in and of Us All.

VOTE: For the "SiNGULARiTY" of All the 3 Major Religions (Holy Teanach/Bible, Glorious Quran & the Holy Gita) Never Never vote for "PLURALiTY" movements of their 'My god' JEALOUSY-Syndromes'! It is Satans/Jinns/Kalis Tricks to DiViDE & Conquer!

iMAGiNE the "O.U.R.-B.O.T."? A Prophetic Genuine ,AMERiCA MADE , not imported Religion/Faith/Belief System to Magnify, uphold & make honorable unto real End of ‘TiMe’ (via Hol{i} TEMPETARURE).

Note: ”iT” Will be made Available, online, for whoever wants “IT” , on the 400th Year Anniversary of GALLALiO and exactly aligned with the U.N.’s sponsored UNESCO program via International Year Of Astronomy {IYA2008}..

---
BY “i“: : [Please remove curly brackets; since the ‘NiCOLAiTAN’s are Jealous. Thank-A-Shame]

http://.......{J}{O}{Z}………………..{E}{V}{Z}…………….. {dot}…………………{US}

--“IT” takes a Mind G-r-e-a-t-e-r than the Satans/Jinns/Devils/Kali to Defeat it, Guess What?
--
Att: N i C K : @ 8:15A

ye sayth,

".. Sarah Palin is an ignorant, paranoid nutjob..."

Note: Ye do know that she/Palin is a 'Cool', not paranoid, & rather smooth/operator? Satanic Folk know this.

Setting all that 'Prophey' aside, "i" still predict that it is not Sara Palin turn who will lead THiS/nation, nor the world, but "A COLLECTiON' OF 'Worldy Women Leading Ladys!"

Note: Under the U.S. JO{KTAN-ian "Holy Cosmic Feeling Faith" [Ho-Co-Fe-Fa] , a Religio, like a belief, but better thats Based on 'TRUTH' (not 'MYTH': includes hallucinations in Book of Revelation et al) And

Under the Apocalyptarians Bible, aka The "O.neU.niversal R.eligio B.ook O.f T.rans{Finity" [O.U.R.-B.O.T.] it surely pertains to the 'Fullfilment' of the "144,000 Sealed [ordained Apocalyptarians] Relationship Ministers" {SRM} of the EKCLAT-i-ON 'Ho-Co-Fe-Fa' SYSTEM.,

which is considered a "DiSPENSATiON" of a 'RAPTURE" in ITs own Right!

Hence The Difference Between Us [EKCLAHTARiANS, aka JO{KTANs] & Them [PRE-APOCALYPTARiANs, aka NiCOLAiTANs].

REMEMBER: We are living in the AGE of "The RELiGiON of Everything, before the SCiENCE of Everything!" And that,

According to the "APOCALYPTARiAN CREED", aka "EKCLAT-i-ON CREED" of the Hiol{i-No-Men,

that "MODERN [Seculari] MORALiTY is superior to any BiBLiCAL [Theocratic/monarchi] MORALiTY!"

---

VOTE: Abolish ALL, EVERY & ANY THEOCRACY & MONARCHY, on this Holy Cosmic, NEBULA-BUiLT, Ma/Pa-S.pace-S.hip Earth. aka S.S. GAiA, aka S.S. GEOiD, S.S. TELLUSng something else. TRUTH! Opposite of MYTH! This is our O.U.R.!

note: ye can add a"H" as a Prefix for 'H'oly, so to Think, FEEL & live & Love the "H.O.U.R." is O.K. too!

Not Mr. MOSES!
Not Mr. JESUS!
Not Mr. MUHAMMAD!
Not Mr. VYASA!
Not Mr. GAUTAMA! Guru, Swami etc..

Note: ALL God Players are MEN, not Ladys! So GOOD-RiDDENCE old time Religion(s) competing for a name for their man-made 'My god' System via a Syndrome' or Psychosis, instead of "O.U.R. G-D"

But REALiTY, aka 'TRANS{FiNiTY, can only be enjoyed, Only, via EC{LAT + "i" = LiFE/Photons Awareness! Yes! By Magnifying, Upholding & Making Honorable the H. 'O.U.R.-B.O.T.!

This liFE is A Miracle , never a Biblical/Quranic/Tenach/Gita.. Sin or Curse song or as if Re-birth or Birth/LiFE be some cosmic suffering ordeal here & there story! Not ARMAGEDDON storys’s

Goodbye JERUSALEM!
Goodbye VATiCAN!
Goodbye CANTERBURY!
Goodbye MECCA!
Goodbye NEPAL!
Goodbye TiBET!
Goodbye ARMESTAR! et al! Note: All are PRE-APOCALYPTiC Faith System(s).

Their god(s) is a He/Him an a She/her. But 'Not' O.U.R. innate G-D! aka Eponymous EC{LAT + "i" = LiFE/Photons awareness. ! OUR G-D is an “IT” being “iTSELF” in and of Us All.

VOTE: For the "SiNGULARiTY" of All the 3 Major Religions (Holy Teanach/Bible, Glorious Quran & the Holy Gita) Never Never vote for "PLURALiTY" movements of their 'My god' JEALOUSY-Syndromes'! It is Satans/Jinns/Kalis Tricks to DiViDE & Conquer!

iMAGiNE the "O.U.R.-B.O.T."? A Prophetic Genuine ,AMERiCA MADE , not imported Religion/Faith/Belief System to Magnify, uphold & make honorable unto real End of ‘TiMe’ (via Hol{i} TEMPETARURE).

Note: ”iT” Will be made Available, online, for whoever wants “IT” , on the 400th Year Anniversary of GALLALiO and exactly aligned with the U.N.’s sponsored UNESCO program via International Year Of Astronomy {IYA2008}..

---
BY “i“: : [Please remove curly brackets; since the ‘NiCOLAiTAN’s are Jealous. Thank-A-Shame]

http://.......{J}{O}{Z}………………..{E}{V}{Z}…………….. {dot}…………………US

As what you might term a fundamentalist Christian (I believe the Bible is God-breathed), I agree with the writer that the woman's place is wherever she is qualified and capable of going. I've sought to instill that belief in my two grown daughters and they've embraced it all their lives.
As to women in the church, there are many churches out there who approve of female leadership, so I'm not sure what the fuss is about.
As for Ms. Palin's ability to perform as President (or even vice-), my initial take is that it would be a bit of a strech for her, as it is for just about everyone. She is not a much scarier prospect than Senators McCain or Obama themselves. She is not the problem.
The problems seem to center on the fact that the conflict between left and right is no longer a rich vs. poor fight. It seems to be more about whether the people of the United States will continue becoming a pliable, willing mass of consumers for whatever product the right wants to feed us. Many many huge corporations that control our food, medicines, insurance, transportation, ideas and more are no longer American companies, even in name. These multinationals, and the legislators owned by them, are not only interested in you as a consumer of their products, but your children, grandchildren, and so on to the ending of it all. On the left, we see bumbling efforts to get the electorate to see and act in their own interests, to show us all that we do not need the myriad specialists who want to dictate not only our spending, but also our attitudes, energies, and increasingly, our moral direction. There is no Christ at all in these people, only outright power madness, greed, or some misguided belief in people who don't deserve their faith. May God have mercy on their souls.

I am so sorry that you feel that way. You in essence are missing out on the other half of humanity's viewpoint which is just as valid when it comes to the Christian church. At least in the pagan arena both male and female are treated like equals. Let me see if you accept the circumstances surrounding Palin's family then you are also are assessory to the fact. Either you accept or deny can't have both in the Christian context. At least in the pagan viewpoint one has to own up to their mistakes and rectify them and we don't go crying to our gods or goddesses for forgiveness.
As saying goes make the bed then lie in it.

Calgal,

St. Augustine also erred about original sin, an error so large that anything else he had to say is not worth considering.

Many of the posts here ignore the real issue. Who cares if Sarah Palin is a woman - it is totally irrelevant to the issue. Of course a woman can [and hopefully will someday] be president. This is a non-issue, although, in fairness, doubts about this are far more likely to come from the political right. The real issue with Sarah Palin is the cold, calculating hypocrisy of her selection. She is not even remotely qualified to be VP let alone President if something should happen to McCain. McCain clearly has abandoned any moral high-ground with her selection. This is not the act of a man of honor, this is the act of a man afraid of losing an election. Winning by any means fair or foul is the name of the game, just as it has been for the last eight years. How can Americans be so blind as to not see through this game and reject it for the cynical hypocrisy that it is? The above statements do not even speak to the serious concerns raised by the almost hourly revelations about Ms. Palin's political career. The moral leaders of the Religious Right would rather have someone who belongs to a Dominionist sect of Christianity, who hold views far removed from the mainstream of American political history and thought a single heartbeat away from the presidency. They are the ones having an double standard, and if they can control the media and the dialog, they may just make this travesty fly. In addition, how can the people supporting her, and claiming that there should be a civil discourse on the issue [as long as they can control the discourse], at the same time make the most hateful attacks on Obama? B. Hussein Obama, B. Hussein Osama, etc. He is daily ridiculed for being a moslem - which he is not. Reckless and racist hatred is ok, but hands off the Dominionist soccer mom with serious legitimate questions about her views and qualifications? I will weep for our political future if this woman ever gets her hands anywhere near the office of President.

I cringe as I read Albert Mohler's post. Subtitute "black" for "woman" and suddenly you have black people finding "their greatest joy and fulfillment in the roles of hewers of wood and carriers of water."

The very people that McCain and Palin are trying to appeal to, your average conservative-leaning, middle class American--these very people are the people who are going to suffer the most from four more years of the same policies. WAKE UP, AMERICA! Don't reward the GOP for helping the rich and forgetting the poor. If you vote for McCain/Palin, that is what you will be doing. Vote for Obama and Biden to send the message that America is not a country that will accept the ever widening gap between rich and poor. We must stop this insanity while we still can!

I love believers who cite St. Augustine.

You know, don't you, that St. Augustine thought "life" (by which you all mean attachment of a soul, don't you?) began when the fetus "quickened" or first move within the womb.

So if he was wrong about that, what else was he wrong about?

The facts about Sarah Palin here in Alaska are quite different from Republican propaganda. Palin is an extreme fundamentalist Christian, anti-choice, anti-sex education, and favors abstinence only. Palin says the Iraq War is “…a task that is from God.” Palin is a creationist, and believes the world is 6000 years old. As a community organizer, she tried to force creationism into Wasilla schools (failed). As a Mayor she tried to force censorship on the public library (failed). As a Governor she has asked the state legislature to put a strict anti-abortion act on her desk, and promised to sign it (failed). She has cut the budget for the education of special needs children and for children’s health care. Here in Alaska, we have had to organize to protect our personal freedoms from Sarah Palin. Extreme religious beliefs, whether they are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or of any religious faith, have no place near political or military power.

"The Bible states that women are not to hold the office of teaching authority in the church."

Um, could you give me a more specific citation than just "the Bible," please?

And not a citation from the misogynist Paul, who, I might point out, was NOT the Son of God but an ordinary mortal. I'm not even sure why his letters are considered sacred "scripture."

Why not simply take the question of divine authorship off the table, leaving it as an unknown, and form one's own conclusions about the teachings? If Paul didn't assert a divine source for his teachings, what conclusions would one reach about them?

Comment in response to Sally Quinn's question.
The question:
Women can be presidents but not pastors? I don't understand. I would like somebody to explain this to me.
My response:
The answer is related to the concept best presented by St. Augustine a few years ago.
The christian, according to the bible, is "in the world, but not of the world". In other words, their faith is to be integrated into their life to the point that things of God(faith) supercede the "pragmatism" of the world and it's concerns.
St. Augustine descibed this concept as two cities; The City of Man and The City of God.
The Christian resides in both.
The City of Man would include the areas of civic reponsibility. The City of God includes the responsibilties to God.
Therefore a woman may be a candidate for president; a civic office. And a woman may not be a candidate for pastor; a spiritual office.
Some will criticise this as a 'false dichotomy' allowing avoidance of a charge of hypocricy. However the dual nature of humans (spiritual and carnal) requires a choice of which will be the dominant guidance. This choice does not remove the subordinate nature. Christians (or more precisely, disciples of Christ) daily must deliberate between "pragmatism" and God's Sovereignty.

Of course there are those who debate the prohibition of a woman holding a pastors position, but the orthodox christian position is a more literal interpretation of God's word contained in scripture.

Palin's church advocates converting gays by prayer. Is there any indication she differs?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/09/05/politics/p171257D37.DTL

Dr Mohler,
Thank you for your honest look at this situation and being honest with the fact that the NT bounds us as believers within the context of the church. Secular authority is ordained by God, and it is not the party responsible for training children and families in righteousness. I applaud Gov. Palin and her stances on the issues, and I am glad that even if she were VP, she's mom. The irony is that the feminist camp cannot be happy with what should be their poster child, a feminine woman who can play hardball, balance a state budget, combat corruption, and still pick up eggs and milk after work.
In Christ!
Scott

Considering Mr. Mohler's argument, it seems to get people in an uproar and not see clearly, just look at the comments. The question is how can evangelicals be consistent regarding leadership roles. Dr. Mohler did a great job in answering this tough question.

The one problem is the assumptions made by many in the comment section that Dr. Mohler refused to jump on. 1) How does the Palin family work? No one knows unless they ask the Palin family. 2) People are assuming that the VP job is the most crazy job to have. How do we know how much time a VP spends on things and how much on family? 3) Fathers and mothers primary job is taking care of family, what is her husband doing? 4) True the president is called on greatly, but who is to say that this could not be changed to include family time.

I think that these 4 items are assumed negatively by many people. Since we truly cannot answer these four points intelligently, we need to give the Palin family the benefit of the doubt and stop putting our culture's expectations on a family that seems to desire to balk at such requests in the first place.

Evangelicals are the Fascist party at prayer.

"Is he suggesting, that, unlike most women who are called by God to stay in the home, Palin has been called by God to be Vice-President?"

I would go further - it's not up to Mohler or anyone else to decide what constitutes "God's calling" for others.

It's a sad commentary on the current state of affairs in America that anyone can argue that women should be allowed to run a country, but should have a religious role limited by the dictates of "scripture."

Thanks to the religious rightwing, America--once a leader in science and intellectual thought--is on the verge of becoming a laughingstock because a litmus test for leadership is now whether or not a candidate adheres to the jots and tittles of 2000-year-old dogma.

Dr. Mohler is spot on. It's the feminists who have proclaimed questions of career/family out of bounds, yet they are now changing the rules. C'mon Sally stand up for your own ideals.

If Christians have always believed that women would competent to hold public office even though they were not competent to lead a church congregation, why were they denied even the right to vote in elections for public office until the Women's Sufferage act was passed. It appears to me that while you believe that the Scripture is God's word and that the scripture has not changed for 2000 years, apparently Christians are smarter now than they were and now they are good enough to vote and hold office. I believe women should have always had the right to vote and hold public office. I just want to note that it appears that Christian men and women have only recently become enlightened as to what the scriptures have meant for 2000 years. Even now, however, the government does not seek to dictate what men do with their bodies but men who control government deny women the same choice.

The topic at hand is whether women can be leaders of both the religions and democracies of the world and here we see the influence of Paul and pseudo Pauls

Galatians 3:28 ("There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus") is, according to some historic Jesus exegetes, not credible as a historical utterance by either Jesus or Paul. It is the only time Paul or a pseudo Paul considers women as being equivalent to men.

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/013_Two_As_One

And Paul's (or pseudo Pauls) apparent real utterances about women give credence to this conclusion.

e.g.

"He (Paul) feared the turn-on of women's voices as much as the sight of their hair and skin..... At one point he even suggests that the sight of female hair might distract any angel in church attendance (1 Cor. 11:10). Professor Bruce Chilton in his book, Rabbi Paul, pulls no punches in criticizing one of the founders of Christianity. Basically Paul was a "prude".

Professor Chilton btw is a Professor of Religion at Bard College and a priest at the Free Church of St. John in Barrytown, NY.

And the following:

"In 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 Paul writes: “But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.” He goes on to say that “any woman who prays or prophesies” should keep her head covered, whereas a man should never cover his head, “since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.)”

In 1 Corinthians 14:33-35, Paul (or a pseudo Paul) gives us the famous injunction, “… women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.” This theme is taken up again in 1 Timothy 2:11-15, where women are instructed to dress modestly and to keep silent in church: “For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.”

Ephesians 5:21-32 is the passage that is read at every Orthodox marriage ceremony, so it’s already quite well known to us. This is the passage in which women are told to be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord, which Paul repeats briefly in his letter to the Colossians (3:18). The husband, Paul (or a pseudo Paul) explains, “is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.” While women are to be subject to their husbands, so men are to love their wives “as their own bodies.” “This is a great mystery,” Paul says, “and I take it to mean Christ and the church.”

Simply add Paul's (and the pseudo Pauls) thinking about women to the list of flaws in the foundations of Christianity and a major reason why women have been discriminated against for these so many, many years.

So does that mean we should be looking to Todd Palin for the leadership of our country in case something happens to McCain? You create more problems than you answer. Whose version of biblical interpretation are we supposed to adopt...the loudest, most basic or the least scary. Even you guys can't decide. Religious leaders are the least prepared to govern this country. However, you inject religion into politics without considering that we are now being asked to exercise our vote while being told how to vote at the same time...this is not the American way. This is starting to smack of a theocracy. Not what the Founding Fathers had in mind. Me either!

hi

Mohler makes no sense. He says "This is a question of calling. I believe that God has placed in the hearts of most women a deep desire for the fulfillment of marriage and the raising of children as life priority." Is he suggesting, that, unlike most women who are called by God to stay in the home, Palin has been called by God to be Vice-President? Scary. The last president who though he was called by God was George Bush. Mohler also says, "The Bible states that women are not to hold the office of teaching authority in the church, and sets forth a portrait of different but complementary roles for men and women in the home and in the church." First, how can Palin fill the role God gave her in the home if she is busy being Vice-President? Second, can he really be serious that God forbids Palin from holding a position of authority in the church but not from having authority over the whole nation - which Mohler and his ilk suggest is a "Christian nation?" This defies logic. But then again, Mohler and the extreme Christian right have never let logic stand in their way. The hypocrisy of the religious right never ceases to amaze me.

This is so disjointed - you never really arrive at a central thesis but rather use the piece to fret about whether you're a hypocrite or not. Given the SBC's singular focus on literalism I am not surprised that you're unable to come up with a well reasoned argument - reason is not encouraged in your congregation.

As head of the Church of England, Good Queen Bess headed a church, no?

I believe that the church's views on leadership - are based on an archaic culture - not the view of Christ... If Paul told women to be silent in church - it had more to do with the culture of the day that kept women behind curtains - than a realistic view of God's intended image of men and women... If it's true that men and women make up a double image of Christ (meaning that God demonstrates both feminine and masculine attributes - both mother and father), then women have been created with the ability to lead... lead a family... lead a household... guide activities... you know - be in charge of things. Some are good at it - and some aren't - Realistically I believe leadership is a skill not limited to one gender.

Regarding the whole headship issue, isn't a presidential-level leader charged with loving the country enough to die for it - as a good servant would? If this is true, then that leader is subject to the nation - just like husbands and wives are subject to each other. It's give - and - take.

I think the whole argument is a little bit silly - as is the church's picking and choosing which ancient cultural habits to cling to - and which to let slip through the cracks of time... What I mean is - why aren't church members required to greet one another with a holy kiss - just as Paul asked us to in the holy scripture?

So to compare the nation's views of women with the church's - is really difficult for me... Because our nation is doing a much better job of allowing women to exercise their natural (and even God-given) leadership gifts than the church has been.

Mr. Mohler,

I am a christian and I don't consider myself a feminist but I did think that this was a really good question--no matter who's asking. Your response however left me with more questions.

The roles of woman as it pertains to church leadership appear to be clearly outlined in scripture as you say--no woman pastors. But the new testament also speaks very clearly on the subject of slavery. "Slaves obey your masters" Ephesians 6:5-9.

If the teachings of the new testament still apply to the church today what can be said of the church and its role in practicing and teaching people to own other people for profit?
Was the Emanicipation of slaves a departure from biblical teaching. Was the civil rights movement against biblical teachings?

The fact that some commenters write that Palin is "ready to lead" should scare the hell out of any thinking human being. Just over a year and a half as governor of one of America's least populous states gives her enough experience and judgment to lead the most powerful nation in the world?

Please.

The flat-earthers on the religious right have taken what was once a great country and turned it into an intellectual backwater. All that matters to them is their ministers' interpretation of what Jesus said, or didn't say, as well as selective quotations from the old testament.

The decline and fall of America continue, and the religious rightwing is to blame.

Gov. Palin is nothing but a George Bush with lipstick. Take away the mania and tell me were she is qualified to run our country in case of and emergency,and I was a Hillary supporter,get my drift?

I used to think that what churches did was none of my business. But, oh my gosh, what I do (a non-believer) sure seems to be their business.

So, if churches are tell civil society what to do, civil society should be able to tell churches what to do. Fair, no?

I am not suggesting that religious people not be involved in civil society, they have the same right as any one else. But as soon as they tell me I have to do something because THEIR religion commands it, then tit for tat.

As a recovered Southern Baptist, I would like to tell them they have to allow women in leadership as long as they insist on poking their noses into civil society. Or they can give up their sweet little tax exemptions (golly, wouldn't the rest of us like one of those!).

The praisy Evangelical Neocons have decided to praise and exalt adulterers Juan and Cindi and unwed teen mother Bristol. Although Gov Sarah oops'ed and slashed Alaska funding for unwed teen mothers earlier this year, it will not affect Bristol who's gotta rich mama as well as Uncle Neocon Juan. The economy is in severe collapse mode with the possible fall of the Republic, and now Neocon Juan would like to start dirty little wars with Russia and Iran at a cost of trillions more dollars and untold numbers of lives. The entire McWar camp is in a fog; if they can't tell a middle school from Walter Reed on their backdrop how can they tell Iraq from Iran, or perhaps there's no difference to them? The solution: just say NO to the Neocons! If you can't stomach BO then vote Third Party. I, an angry white man (AWM) who has voted Republican for every president since Reagan, will not vote for Neocon Juan McWar.

WHERE ARE AMERICA'S RELIGIOUS LEADERS ?

*** SADLY THIS REPRESSIVE JUDICIAL INJUSTICE HAS BECOME AN AMERICAN ART FORM !!!

** WHEN GOD'S FACE BECAME VERY RED **
THE US SUPREME COURT GAVE ENEMY COMBATANTS FEDERAL APPEAL HC RIGHTS LAWYERS AND PROPER ACCESS TO US FEDERAL COURTS,AND POORER AMERICANS (MANY EVEN ON DEATH ROW ) ARE DENIED PROPER FEDERAL APPEAL LEGAL REPRESENTATION TO US FEDERAL COURTS OF APPEAL, AND ROTTING IN AMERICAN PRISONS NATIONWIDE ??????

**** INNOCENT AMERICANS ARE DENIED REAL HC RIGHTS WITH THEIR FEDERAL APPEALS !
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE $LOWLY FINDING OUT HOW EA$Y IT I$ FOR MIDDLE CLA$$ AND WORKING POOR AMERICAN$ TO FALL VICTIM TO OUR U$ MONETARY JUDICIAL $Y$TEM.

****WHEN THE US INNOCENT WERE ABANDONED BY THE GUILTY ****
The prison experts have reported that there are 100,000 innocent Americans currently being falsely imprisoned along with the 2,300,000 total US prison population nationwide.

Since our US Congress has never afforded poor prison inmates federal appeal legal counsel for their federal retrials,they have effectively closed the doors on these tens of thousands of innocent citizens ever being capable of possibly exonerating themselves to regain their freedom through being granted new retrials.

This same exact unjust situation was happening in our Southern States when poor and mostly uneducated Black Americans were being falsely imprisoned for endless decades without the needed educational skills to properly submit their own written federal trial appeals.

This devious and deceptive judicial process of making our poor and innocent prison inmates formulate and write their own federal appeal legal cases for possible retrials on their state criminal cases,is still in effect today even though everyone in our US judicial system knows that without proper legal representation, these tens of thousands of innocent prison inmates will be denied their rightful opportunities of ever being granted new trials from our federal appeal judges!!

Sadly, the true US *legal* Federal Appeal situation that occurs when any of our uneducated American prison inmates are forced to attempt to submit their own written Federal Appeals (from our prisons nationwide) without the assistance of proper legal counsel, is that they all are in reality being denied their legitimate rights for Habeas Corpus and will win any future Supreme Court Case concerning this injustice!

For our judicial system and our US Congressional Leaders Of The Free World to continue to pretend that this is a real and fair opportunity for our American Middle Class and Working Poor Citizens, only delays the very needed future change of Federal Financing of all these Federal appeals becoming a normal formula of Our American judicial system.

It was not so very long ago that Public Defenders became a Reality in this country.Prior that legal reality taking place, their were also some who thought giving anyone charged with a crime a free lawyer was a waste of taxpayers $$.

This FACADE and HORROR of our Federal Appeal proce$$ is not worthy of the Greatest Country In The World!

***GREAT SOCIETIES THAT DO NOT PROTECT EVEN THEIR INNOCENT, BECOME THE GUILTY!

A MUST READ ABOUT AMERICAN INJUSTICE::
1) YAHOO AND 2) GOOGLE
MANNY GONZALES THE KID THAT EVERYONE FORGOT IN THE CA PRISON SYSTEM.
** A JUDICIAL RIDE OF ONES LIFE !

lawyersforpooramericans@yahoo.com 424-247-2013

"Haven't you people learned anything from the past eight years?"

No, they haven't.

As long as Palin passes the ideological litmus test, she is perfect. The religious rightwing can explain away all her hypocrisies with a wave of the hand.

Having a pregnant underage daughter does not mean that Palin was a poor mother who didn't do a good enough job of instilling the notion of abstinence in her children. It means her life resonates with other Americans in similar situations.

Flying from Texas to Alaska after her water breaks is not a case of Palin endangering the life of her unborn child. Instead, it is an example of her grittiness and strength.

Changing colleges six times in six years does not raise a red flag. Instead, it shows that she has "stick-to-it-tiveness."

There is literally nothing that Palin could do or say that would cause rightwingers to question her fitness for the job of VP and, by extension, president. She was tapped for the job by McCain, and George Bush has given his blessings to both, and that is all we need to know. To dare to question Palin's knowledge is to (1) Want the terrorists to win, (2) be a dirty liberal, and/or (3) hate America.

Are you as sick of Palin as I am? Everyone has problems Sarah, get over it.

John McCain’s campaign threatened legal action against the National Enquirer today for running a story about McCain’s running mate, Sarah Palin, allegedly having an affair with her husband’s business partner.

“The smearing of the Palin family must end. The allegations contained on the cover of the National Enquirer insinuating that Gov. Palin had an extramarital affair are categorically false. It is a vicious lie,” said McCain senior adviser Steve Schmidt.

How can Steve Schmidt possibly know any details of someone's private life when he does not actually know her personally at all, she has only been in national politics for one week. You could not even say McCain or his staff are even acquantences oof hers.

Now it is up to the National Enquirer to do due diligence for the American people. The vetting of this "celebrity" politician belongs in the national enquirer.

Remember that sensation Billy Ray Cyrus and Achy Breaky Heart?
Someday Sarah Palin will join Billy Ray Cyrus with her rendition of “I’m just your average hockey mom”. You can almost hear it now Sarah Palin and the First Dude yesterday released their hit single

Shes a Pit Bull with lip stick on!
Just an average hockey mom!
Send her to Washington and watch her rock!

Is it true that she has a tramp stamp?

I would question Palin's choice even if she were a man. Her family is in some serious need of nuturing and guidance. Being VP is not a regular job, or should not be treated as such.

Our children of gifts from God and should be cherrished as such

Wake up Palin, Mccain is doing nothing but using you.

typo - how does that make men better leaders than men.

should be -
how does that make men better leaders than women?

Mohler is a hypocritical jackass.

Sarah Palin Knows Foreign Policy

Look how close Alaska is to Russia!

Sarah Palin Knows Education

She’s been to 6 colleges in 6 years!

Sarah Palin Knows Government Waste

She collected 27 million dollars in earmarks while mayor of a 9000 person town in Alaska.

Sarah Palin now knows Abstinence Only education doesn’t work.

Well, maybe she doesn’t. But she does think it’s the only sex education your children should learn.

Sarah Palin Knows Sexism

It’s sexist when it’s applied to her, but its not when it’s applied to Hillary.

Sarah Palin Knows Creationism

And wants to teach it to your children as an equally plausible alternative to the theory of evolution

Sarah Palin Knows Books

And wants to ban the ones she doesn’t like from your local library.

Sarah Palin Knows Rape and Incest

And believes the victims should be forced to bear the child.

Sarah Palin Knows Welfare

Alaska receives more money from the Federal Government than any other state of the Union.

Sarah Palin Knows Country First

But she believes in Alaska First and supports a group that wants to secede from the Union.

Sarah Palin Knows George Bush

And wants to continue his policies for 4, 8? 12? 16? more years.

Sarah Palin

One 5-time face cancer, 72-year-old man heartbeat away from the Presidency.

Think about that when you go to the polls.

We know that she can be a mother and vp, but is she moderate enough to serve america. Under conservative stewardship, this country has weakened economically. Palin is a charismatic person who could help Mccain extend 4 more years of hardship. Obama and biden will stir the country in another direction toward economic stability.

This is a stupid sideshow and deliberate distraction.

Her family is IRRELEVANT.

The bigger problems:

1) ZERO national and foreign policy experience
2) Apparently ZERO interest in either as well
3) Fringe rightwing ideology
4) Intense secrecy
5) Nixon-style abuse of power in Alaska

That first quote on the role of women and men is from Saint Paul and needs to be understood in the terms of the metaphor of the relationship of the Christian church to Christ. The church is the bride of Christ and, consequentially, subservient.

This is more an argument of the role of the church in early Christianity than support for the relationship of women and men in our modern world. To use it out of context to support an argument for modern marriage is inappropriate.

Leona P:
Women can and should be able to compete in any market or job title and do the job well. However, according to my beliefs and faith, I'm not sure that God called women to preach, even though we have many women preachers and pastors. Adam, in his weakness, fell because of the trickery of Eve.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So if Adam wasn't bright enough or strong enough to resist Eve's urging him to eat the forbidden fruit, how does that make men better leaders than men. It took Satan himself putting in a personal appearance to trick Eve. Adam was duped by a mere mortal.

For Palin is this the opportunity to look at her Downs baby and be the loving mother she claims she is or put Country first? Downs babies require and thrive best when the have consistent love and care and most often, that comes from the mother. Can she do this as she is expected to go to Georgia or other foreign countries to handle our business.
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Women have juggled babies, even ones with disabilities, and careers for a long time now.

Palin has a few issues in her own household that the average mother would be trying to look at. Sarah has other daughters who came up under the same value system she preaches. What I suggest is that she looks at her other teen age daughter and make sure that she is not approving teen pregnancy. Parading her daughter around sends a bad message to the teens. Bristol should be home reading up on how to take care of a baby and completing her education.
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Hiding her pregnant daughter would be sending a message that a pregnant teenage daughter is a source of shame for the parents. Instead, she is sending the message "My daughter made an error in judgement, but she is still my daughter, I love her, and the family is making the best of the situation. "

Make no mistake - I will NOT be voting McCain/Palin, but not because she is a new mother or because she has a pregnant teenage daughter. There are so many REAL reasons not to vote McCain/Palin.

All that would be true if her family wasn't in crisis and it is. The daughter needs her with the new baby and the Palin's own Downs Syndrome child needs her during his first critical years.

What happened to the shining city upon the hill?

As a European with a long standing admiration of the American society, political tradition and electoral process, the past eight years has been a political and moral tragedy. It has become increasingly difficult to explain and motivate the U.S. neoconservative policy both domestic and abroad.

In Europe many people feels that the U.S. has gone morally bankrupt and those classic American virtues like tolerance, human rights, free press and strong diplomacy is no longer an American trade mark. In the wake of the 2000 election and 9/11, America has transformed into a society that painfully reminds many Europeans on now dissolved totalitarian regimes of the past. Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo reminds us all of the frailty of democracy and the importance of strong moral leadership in the free world.

“America is no longer a shining city upon the hill”

'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here.
Ronald Reagan.

I don’t think many believe this is still true about America today!
Moral standards are very important in American society/politics and something that the republicans have always used to define themselves as a party. President Reagan, whom I admire, opened the doors for the evangelicals during the 1980 presidential election where he made an alliance with Moral Majority.

They gave him two-thirds of the white evangelical votes and they in turn demanded government legislation against pornography and abortion. Since then the religious right has gained more and more influence within the GOP, twice securing the presidency for Mr. Bush. They have successfully swayed the party line from classic conservatism ideology towards moral principles founded on conservative Christian convictions.

I have had the great privilege to work and live in Washington in the mid 90-ties and I was there when the conservative crusader Mr. Starr went through every garbage can in the country with the ambition to impeach President Clinton. The untamed hatred towards President Clinton overshadowed the interest of the nation and the extremist right wing republicans almost succeeded with their plans to overthrow the President for having a pour set of moral values. America spent more tax money conducting Ken Starr's investigation of President Bill Clinton's affair with intern Monica Lewinsky, than they did in the investigation of Watergate and the Iran-Contra scandal combined.

It is however somewhat entertaining, if it wasn’t so tragic, to see how deep some of these men of high values and moral standard fall. I think most of us remember horror cabinet of Jim Bakker, Bob Barr, John Bolton, Louis Beres, Parker J. Bena and Mark Foley.

Now the republicans have chosen unknown and inexperienced white evangelical women, mother of five, from Alaska to run for VP. Why? Because McCaine desperately needs the support of the Evangelicals, who is more than a little skeptical toward his traditional conservative views. The fact that 18% of all votes cast for Bush in 2004 were white Evangelical votes makes essential for McCaine to forge an alliance if he wants to win the election in November.

Palin is welcomed with great enthusiasm by fellow Republicans who see her as a personification of the new Republican. She is a church going conservative Christian, against abortion and sex before marriage hence cannot support contraception. She believes in family values and prides herself on being a hokey mom with the qualities of a Pitt Bull. Now Palin is being accused of misusage of power, having an affair while married and on top her daughter accidently had sex before marriage and got pregnant. This however is alright as she is keeping the baby and is getting married at age 17. Ups! But this only ad to her popularity because it shows that she is from a “normal” family with “normal” problems.
It doesn’t matter that she is political novice and that there is a chance that she would have to step up as President in light of McCaines advanced age! 72.

I’m not saying that the Democrats are saints or better people than the Republicans; in my view the best American presidents were Republicans. But I really believe it’s time for something different In America …. Hope you all have a good election in November.

M. Andersen

If the wife's role is "to submit herself to the servant leadership of her husband", can we expect a possible President Sarah Palin to be taking policy advice from Todd?

Sarah Palin is an ignorant, paranoid nutjob, just like the tens of millions born again crackpots that will be the death of this country. Reading the posts on this page I get a strong sense of the collective insanity of this wretched community and their obsessing about prophecies and interpretations, it's so utterly depressing.

Sarah Palin is an ignorant, paranoid nutjob, just like the tens of millions born again crackpots that will be the death of this country.

Women can and should be able to compete in any market or job title and do the job well. However, according to my beliefs and faith, I'm not sure that God called women to preach, even though we have many women preachers and pastors. Adam, in his weakness, fell because of the trickery of Eve. Sad for us. I believe we have a higher calling as mothers and support in our religious faith, regardless to what the name is.

I do believe when running for a national office, sincere thought must be given to health, time required doing the job and family. Given the fact that McCain is 72, has had several bouts with cancer and now palls behind Sarah Palin, I think she has put her own selfish ambitions ahead of her family.Sure, women can be competitive, however, a good mother recognizes her level of commitment, dedication and opportunity.

For Palin is this the opportunity to look at her Downs baby and be the loving mother she claims she is or put Country first? Downs babies require and thrive best when the have consistent love and care and most often, that comes from the mother. Can she do this as she is expected to go to Georgia or other foreign countries to handle our business.

Palin has a few issues in her own household that the average mother would be trying to look at. Sarah has other daughters who came up under the same value system she preaches. What I suggest is that she looks at her other teen age daughter and make sure that she is not approving teen pregnancy. Parading her daughter around sends a bad message to the teens. Bristol should be home reading up on how to take care of a baby and completing her education.

Sarah has too many things floating around her; firing of her director; rumors of an affair, pregnant teen daughter. Sarah is running for President, not VP and this is what we are failing to understand.

Who does she represent; where is her sense of family and what role model does she bring. I see nothing that makes her anything other than a new face on the scene with lots of problems. Republicians should be scared and the conservative Christian should go back to their beliefs; this woman is a fake.

Osama Bin Laden
Obama Bin Biden

So, according to the Bible, men who shave their beards are committing a sin. I notice R. Albert Mohler Jr. shaves. But a woman preach? God forbid.

A woman's most significant impact is rearing children? The arguments talked about in this article are so alien to me, it is fascinating that it is even an issue. Not all Christian faiths interpret the Bible literally, Catholics for instance. They believe the writers of the bible were inspired by God, that what they wrote was subject to their own experience, time and culture. I am glad you are leading some of your members out of the Dark Ages.

I love to watch dancing with Republican stars. Fornication is evil and you can't learn contraception. Ooops! Abstinance didn't work on my daughter. That's a private matter. I'm sure those other girls will get it.
And gays won't even take my abstinence course so they are going to hell anyway. Their private lives are going to get us millions of votes when we expose those evil bastards.
It's good for us I know God's will in Iraq. Otherwise I might worry when Track blows up Iraqi children (Arab bastards) and it is hard to understand his behavior when he gets home.
I wish I could remember if Georgia had something to do with (excuse me while I read off the teleprompter) for-mer sov-i-et re-pub-lics, whatever that means, tasty peaches, or a Ray Charles song. I never listened to those Negro singers, but they told me I would be cooler if I claimed that I did.

Taking 2000 year old customs and traditions as "biblical truth" is wildly inconsistent, unless you are also willing to live as if it were 2000 years ago: without running water, electricity, modern medicine, and so forth.

Civilized humans today have abandoned many of the customs of Biblical times--stoning people, etc.--and have adopted new customs. Change can be a good thing! I'm writing this on a computer, for example!

To adopt as your fixed philosophy the ideas of anonymous men who lived centuries and centuries ago, and to regard those ideas as perfect, is ridiculous. It's the 21st century. Join us!

Bama refers to his muslim faith. Biden Time says life begins at conception. It's opposites day at the donkey ranch.

Mr. Mohler,

Please keep you bible to yourself. I have no use for it and it has no place in running The State.

Not hypocrisy, but doublethink.

A little of topic, but never-the-less relevant.
Certain secular liberals and news media editors certainly know how to be hypocrites. Did we not at some time hear all about how people in leadership should not take their personal convictions into the work place? Did we not as a Christian community have to listen to the liberal ramblings on how personal convictions do not matter as long as the individual's job performance did not suffer? Was there not a phrase being bandied about :"it is the economy stupid". Did we not have to suffer through the lie "I did not have sex with that woman" and then be told this individual was an effective leader after all?
Well, look here. What is the issue now? A woman wants to be Vice President and what are the Liberals crying foul about now, and what is the big hoopla today? Nothing less than the dissecting of a religious "personal view" and how it relates to the oval office.
As much as I believe in the very important impact "personal values" have in public office I wish the secular media editors would make up their minds on what they argue about.
George -
http://urbizzness.com/

Gov. Palin can serve. The question is, should she?
Who was keeping an eye on her daughter when she was breaking her abstinence vows? Just that situation indicates there is a breakdown of parenting. Sorry for speaking the harsh truth, but the Bible is clear on this.

HA!

'Biblical Truth'

The greatest oxymoron ever told.

I think Sarah Palin can manage her leadership roles just fine and not have her family suffer. It seems that sometimes we are just chosen at a certain time to lead, and now is hers. I believe it will do America good to have a woman behind the wheel. The "boys club" has made a mess of things. Who knows, she may wow the foreign leaders.
As for leading a congregation,every religion has it's authority and most don't recognize women as leaders, although they should. My faith has us play second fiddle myself, but I know I could do the job just not with the proper authority. I have moved to the highest position you can move to and my leaders commented "She could run General Motors" but alas I settled for running youth programs for 16 years.

Pardon my French, but McCain & Palin suddenly scares the hell out of me. Besides McCain not being honest on tax issues, he's craven when it comes to saying he's a maverick or that he would put country first. You pick a VP based on experience and competency. Rather than doing so he chose to shore up the radical right wing base. With Palin, I fear we get another George W. Bush. Another governor from a big state that we later find out could not manage a McDonalds let alone lead the Presidency. Bush's views were not well known like Palin's. He also won the nomination exactly in the same way that Palin has won the hearts of so many conservatives: by sending cultural cues to convince them that he was one of them, understood them, sympathized with them. So that made everything else irrelevant in 2000 - as it seems again to be doing in 2008. Bush lacked other important aspects of leadership which is how we got into the mess from which he needed to rescue the country and himself. With Palin I fear we have the same.

My problem has never been that she try to have a job and a family. My wife and I both have busy careers, and we both had to cut back when we had two healthy kids. Most high office holders or CEOs or pop stars have arranged their lives so they have another parent, or a team of nannies at home, even for two kids. I think the concern is how Sarah Palin will manage THAT job with THAT family. If she can, good for her, but can't we all agree that it will be an unusually difficult challenge, and ultimately a risk for her family or the country if it turns out to be too much?

======= R. Mohler Jr. (9th)

All Comments (139)
Vote: EC{lat-arian Party for Gridarian Democracy & Trans{finite Prophecy Here We come! :

Att: L A Z A R U S @ 6:08 PM ;

"Synergetic-less Split-Minded Psychosis or Double Standard Psychosis & or Religio Jealousy Psychosis & or "Pre-apocalyptic Syndrome ye Surely Hath!

September 7, 2008 6:49 PM

====== R. Mohler Jr. (8th)

All Comments (128)

Response to Anonymous: “ Anonymous:
Many times I have heard from the pulpit how some Christian's like to pick some scriptures here and there to live by. You know, like Home Town Buffet. Putting yourself out there with a hodgepodge answer leaves some of us wishing you would just keep it to yourself. There is a question I have thought about during this run for the White House, what candidate would be able to stand up to the "Churches" qualifications according to Timothy 3:1-13. Verse two eliminates one candidate already.

September 7, 2008 5:18 PM

Att: A N O N Y M O U S @ 5:18 PM;

Which Timothy: 1 or 2?

September 7, 2008 5:29 PM

======== R. Mohler Jr. (7th)

All Comments (125)
Defend, Love & inherit holy Cosmic nebula-made space-ship earth, not tenach,bible,quran,gita:

Att: R A V i T C H, The Normal:

iNteresting: Me 1st Marriage (out of 3; hence "i" believe in Marrige between a real Mavorite-Mr, & a real Sporade-Ms) was to a "Primitive Baptist" who was 17 , and who got Preagnant by straddling my back & neck holding me back! & "i" was [inexperienced] 21. Yes, We have a 'Red-Head born in Atlanta, Ga., at the time.

Note: Suppose "i" did Pull Back? Thanks to me Ex, Then "i" would never had had a Son. And if ye think about, that 'Pulling-out' or even Comming via Condom" that that is tantamount to, maybe an ABORTiON!?? My Son Potentiate would of wound-up on his mothers belly or spent in a condom!??? What a Waiste of HEURiSTiC/a/o's {Souls] aye??

Ps: For this Reason, the "CLERGY(s)" & their Congregants/Assperants of America Should Refrain & Stay the heck away from SECULAR MORALiTY!

DO-NOT involve ye Biblical Morality (tautology) in the Secular SEXUAL-RiGHTs business! And not via gender 'Preferential", or Sex 'Orientational', but in the BED ROOM too ! And

Please Divinity Degreed Evangelicals_Nationals & Followers & similarly selfserved & situated folk, in Americ; Stay the Heck away from SECULAR GOVERNMENT Biz!

Hence the APOCALYPTARiAN's CREED:

"Modern [SECULAR] Morality is Superior To Any Biblical [Theocratic] Morality!"

Note: Mr. R. A. Mohler et al; Please leave ROE Vs. Wade Alone. It does not need Fixing! It is O.K., Besides, your Prez/Boy-BUSH did not overturn Wade. And Ye Voted for him, Why???

Revelation: If ye want, Please make it illegal to Ejackulate outside of a vagina with NO Condoms! Or to Masterbate!!! Remember, this is murder too, if ye wanna get Mystical about it!!! OR

Let You & Family & Parishoners, Congregants , Big mouth Activists, Adopt, Support & care for ALL, Every & Any Baby Born (mongaloids too) , in America, that is NOT WANTED!! And while ye are it it Mr. Mohler et al, Ye all can Also Support all the Parentless & Homeless Here & Abroad Too! But No 'Faith Based , Tax Payers, Handouts, Intitiatives money either.

Hint: And Ye Church gets ZERO "Faith Based Initiative Help!" As a matter of fact: Vote to Abolish them 'Executive Branch issued & STATE Usurpationed "Faith Based Initiatives" Today.!

note: Apocalypticaly Speaking: O.U.R. "GENE-POOL" Count is Cosmically Limited, even unto , the "real END-OF-TiME", in +/- 2.2/3.3 Billion Years from Today!
----

Oh, Something additionaly interesting:

"OBAMA" means the 'Blessed One" [Similar]. But

"AL-ABAMA" {were my 1st American "JO{KTAN}" childs, Mother was Born, Auburn/Opelika, Al.) means "EC{LAT}i" Chosen-Blessed" people too!

---

Hear Ye Hear Ye, O' Sweet Sweet Americ, U.S.A. is TRULY (opposite of MYTH) now ONE!

HALLALUYA! Praise the Hol{i}-NO-Men & No-Wo-men!

Vote: Marriage is between a Real Man & a real Woman, not a Mr. & Mr. or Ms. & Ms.

----

Thank-A-Schame!

By: {j}{o}{s}{e}{v}{z}{DOT}Us:

September 7, 2008 4:30 PM

======= R. Mohler Jr. (6th).

All Coments #119

On: Ec{lati-on, "Harmonic Convergence of A new-age" via the U.N. World-Faith Exchange body
--
Please see this wiki linko "i" forgot to post at "September 7, 2008 11:52 AM".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_Convergence

Excerpt: "..The Harmonic Convergence is the name given to a world-wide esoteric-religious event which took place on August 16 and August 17, 1987. The event was centered on a number of "sacred" places throughout the world from Stonehenge to the Golden Gate Bridge where individuals calling themselves "light beings" gathered in an attempt to usher in a new era.

The date of the Harmonic Convegence was based to some extent on the Mayan Calendar with some consideration also given to European and Asian astrological traditions. The chosen dates have the distinction of marking an alignment of the planets of the solar system."

AND

http://home.att.net/~ag2kh/HarmConv.htm

Excerpt: ".. The Harmonic conversion is a trigger for an incredible spiritual re-birth on our planet, involving the whole planet, bonding to mother Earth for a major spiritual surge. I'm not sure how its going to happen, whether it's going to be the Rapture effect, whether it actually happens during August, or whether seeds are sown for a gradual change over the next few years. Something is happening, we're all right in the middle of it, we have to think about the family of man and that is what the age of Aquarius is all about..."

---- E N J O Y! H A L L A L U Y A! Praise The Hol{i}-No-Wo-Men!

Thankyou Great great great great Grand-Ma/Pa-Milkmon Galaxy! Thankyou Great Great Great Ma/Pa-NEBULA! Thank You Great great Grand-Ma/Pa-SOLOAR/Sun! Thankyou Great-Ma-Pa-Earth(s) of Many!

---- By: {j}{o}{s}{e}{v}{z}@Us:

O.rdained R.elationship M.inister [ORM}, Revelator & Defender of the 'Holy Cosmic Feeler Faith, aka 'Ho-Co-Fe-Fa' System; a belief like a religion, yet better & a Lover of "O.U.R.-B.O.T.", ala the Holy-Cosmic Bible, aka "O.ne U.niversal R.eligion B.ook O.f T.rans{Finity}"

September 7, 2008 12:41 PM

========R. Mohler Jr. (5th)

All Comments (115)
Anonymous:

Apocalyptically Speaking that, It's not SARAi Palin's turn to be Americas "2nd Lady!" If any. Yet that honor should've goneth to Sister Condaleeza Rice as MCcains vp mate! Not SARA!

---
Please keep in mind that Prophetically spaketh, that a "..WOMAN [Hillary Clinton] will Lead Humanity to Glory...", unto HEALiNG OF NATiONS, Global Peace & many more GOOD TiDiNGs. Not SARAi Palin. Or False/imposter wannbe Copy Cat. So this Freudiand Bhaviour by John Sneakaroo Mcain is a FALSE Prophecy! This includes Geraldene Ferrara (not meant to be). like a 4 Year Purgatory, It s BIDEN's time to be V.P.! wait unto 2012+!

Note: in our "O.ne U.niversal R.eligion B.ook O.f T.rans{finity" [O.U.R.-B.O.T.] philosophy, that "EC{LAT-ARiAN-ity" , via OUR Holy Cosmic Feelers Faith [Ho-Co-Fe-Fa System], a belief, like a religion, but better, does say that "It Will be the WOMEN's Turn to Lead the MEN...!"
---

Note: Biblically Revealing (opposite of Secret or Hidden from Us) and Speaking [yes, "i"m giveth a Sermon on Cyberspace via WAPO here this Sunday & will continue too every week] THAT

acording to Tenach's Novel-Star & 1st selfserving Rabbi or REV., Mr. MOSES (who had a Cosmic Given Divinity Degree?) that his (not OUR) Biblio Character, Madam 'SARA', not Condaleeza, aka Sister of Mr., eponymous Rabbi, Abraham

pimped-out his own flesh & blood to Kings. Hence, Biblically Speaking, 'HOW' JUDEO-JU's & JUDEO-CHRiSTS & JUDEO-ISLAMICs hath accumilated their Wealth, to enforce their (not OUR) Drunkin Racist Noah Storys and ViA the "SARA" PROSTiTUTiON Storys. Hence

'WHY" SARAi, at first blush, could 'not bear' child by her own Brother ABY (1/2 or not). Because of Too much coochypooing! by pimping Sara around with them non-Circumsized kings, Royalists, Shieks. Wow, Talikin Bout the MOTHER OF HARLOTS! Wow! Forget Babylon!

iF YE not believe "i" , then please see Any imported Pre-Apocalyptic Judeo-Ju, Judeo-Christ religious Bible book, starting @ GEN:12:10. (This was 'how' justified the Prostitution of SARA by Abraham) according to god Player (not O.U.R. G-D). AND

Please see Any imported Judeo-Christ/Judeo-Ju biblio @ GEN:12:11. (Before entering AEGYPT, Abe sais to his sister, " I know you are Beautifull...) And

Please see Any imported Judeo-Christo/Judeo-Ju Biblio book @ GEN:12:12. (Abe said, "When the Aegyptian MEN see you , don tell them I am ye Brother, but instead ye Husband. Wanting you for themselves (Arab Menatlity), they shall KiLL ME, but they will keep ye ALiVE..") AND

Please see any imported Judeo-Christo-Judeo-Ju biblio @ GEN:12:13, @ Gen:12:14, Gen:12:15-16.

Note: According to the ABRAHAM NiGHTS STORY's, via That MOSES, the Ex-CON, Fugitive & Murderer & Novelstar & god Player of all such Bollixing storys, FREUDiANTLY slipped & finally penned (never Cosmically):

@ GEN:12:17 Jealously saying,

"The LORD OF THE JUDEO-JEW(s)..

[aka ex-Pagan Meloch/Chemosh/AMEN/AMON Child & Adult Sacrifdicers] ...

Plaqued the PHAROAH [like PREZiDENT G.W. Bush] and his PALACE [CONGRESS] with great Plaques , 'BECAUSE' of SARAi, Abrahams Wife!

--- iNCAMERA(secret):

@ EXODUS:20:5 & DEUT:5:9, that According to 1st JUDEO-JEW Terrorist ,a Rabbi YAWEH loving, Mr. god player MOSES, did FREUDiANTLY Slip & wrote?,

"I" your-Lord-god (not 'O.U.R. G-D) am a JEALOUS god!" (not OUR G-D). AND

According To Mr. Rabbi JESUS the Judeo-Ju, turned into a Judeo-Christo does admitt ,

in any bible/Tenach @ 2-CORiNTHIAN:11:2, , aka IICor:11:2-kjv et al;

Reveals (opposite of secret/hidden) saying, ""I" Am JEALOUS over YOU with 'godly' (not 'OUR G-D') JEALOUSY!"

Hence: At that Point, that JUDEO-JU(s) & JUDEO-CHRIST(s) & their Armys, include Judeo-Islamica ARMY, are No Different From JUDAiSM [aka PRE-Apocalyptic zionism, instead of APocalyptic-ZiONiSM!].

Remember: There is a night & Day Difference between "Us" 'EC{LAT-ARiAN' Nationals or 'JO{KTAN'-ians {aka Uniters} aka "EC{LAT-i-ON(s)" , aka APOCALYPTARiNA(s), but Prefer to be called HUE{MATE}'s on, Hol{i} Cosmic, NEBULA-Built, Space-Ship Earth(s);

NOT/NO/Zero are We, Apocalyptarian(s)Nationalis, related to them PELEG-ian Nationals (aka HJudeo-DiViders or Judeo-War Mongers on Space-Ship Earth; which We Apocalyptarians must DESTROY) :

If Ye Not/No berlieveth "i" then, please see any Biblio @ LUKE:12:51 & LUKE:14:26, not Bible(s), not Quran(s), not Git(s), Kangyurs, not Tench(s), Scruti's etc..!

---

Ooopppssssaaadizy: Almost Forgot:

Hereunder is a REvelation, aka Apocalypse via Prophecy, who's TiMe is Cometh for All to see:

Please keep in mind this other Big Big FREUDiAN-SLiP-OF-GENuINE-PROPHECY , that them JUDEO-NiCOLAioTAN's (jealous enemy's of Us EC{LAT-Arian Nationals of America 2013+) sliped & wrote & sang @ JOHN:5:46-47,

"..had YE believeth in (MOZEUS who personally knew Father Adam & his siter Eve) ) him ,then Ye Would hath believed ME (JEZUES; who also personally knew Mr. Moses) , ..but if ye do-not-believe in 'HiS' (not O.U.R.) writings, then how? can ye believe MY {Jezeus) WORD(s)?"

iMPORTANTo: All of Them, so called LEADERSHiPs

[them "Biblio/Teanach/Quran/Gita/Tripitaka/Scruti.." BOLLiXERS, aka Word-Merchants, aka Situational Lyers, aka Doer's & Denyer's...]

Proclaim? that that Very Same Judeo/immam/Priest or Rabbi JESUS Krishna Yashua (whom hath a Cosmic Divinity Degree?, like his MOSES) to be the

'The-ONLY BEGOTTEN-SON' of the LEALOUS Bible/Quran/Tenach/Gita God

@ (i.e., JOHN:3:16) et seq.. BUT,

But, Mr. MOSES, JESUS's highest MENTOR/GURU/RABBi/iMMAM/PRIEST .., Freudiantly slipped & said,

"Thus saith the LORD/YAWEH of JEHOVA of ALLAH of KrISHNA of BUDDHA.., iSRAEL/JACOB is 'My' S-O-N, even 'MY' 1st-first-BORN"!!!!!!"

iF ye do not believe "i", then please see any bible/Tenach

@ EXODUS:4:22 et seq!!!

--- Note "HUE{MATE" Kinds Potentiates, Not HUMAN-kinds anymore: THAT,

According to Ye 'iNFiXUS-BOOKS" [Pre-Apocalyptic , man-made; Tenach, Quran, Gita/Tripitaka/Kangyurs etc..] THAT,

APOCALYPTiCALLY Speaking: We are at the 'promised' MiLLENiUM cross-roads, called the 'Ec{lat-i-on's "HARMONiC CONVERGENCE OF A NEW AGE" Dispensation!

Explanation: According to The Ec{lat-Arian "NEW-SONG", aka the AMERiCAN Made & Prophecied "O.U.R.-B.O.T., @ Sub-Section:3.1-3.14", and according to a 'Legend' of

the AZTECS, a god (not our G-D) known among Them as the "QUETZALCOATL" of 'WiSDOM' & 'PEACE' , set-up an AZTEC-CALANDATE begining in the Judeo-Christ Calander Year 843, That

Called for 22 periods of 52 Years each, amounting to '13' DiSPENSATiON(s) of HEAVEN, followed by '9' Dispensations of HELL. So

the 1st Period of such a HELL started with the invasion Of MEXiCO by CORTEZ in the "A.D." Year 1519 of the Judeo-Christo Dating Systen(s) ; AND

the last Period of such HELL concluded at Dawn, AUGUST.16th.1987, A.D., Thus 'Dawning' Space-Ship EARTH(s) with an APOCALYPTiC SUNRiSE!!!!!!!

interestingly, please see APOCALYPTO , a Movie, by Prophetic , "'Ec{lat-ion' Potentiate" Brethren Mel Gibson (note: He is not/N/zero anti-Judeo JU, Judeo-Christ, nor judeo-islamic, nor Judeo-hindu/buddhist.. Hater). So,

And this is what the JUDEO-CHRiSTS-ians call it, A.P.O.C.A.L.Y.P.S.E, Meaning R-E-V-E-L-A-T-i-O-N from the SOURCE Of The Universe, aka EPONYMOUS EC{LAT + "i" = Life/Photons Awareness! So,

And this is what the JUDEO-iSLAMiCS of the EARTH (Musloms or Muslims), the NEW-AGE is to Become the 'Fullfilment' of the Z.i.L.Z.A.L predicted in their Scriptures/Suras (aka Westerly spelled Quran/Koran). note: ZiLZAL is tantamount to a 'SHAKiNG' of the World through beliefs of THE-PEOPLE , HUE{MATE's}, in connection wiuth their (not our) Creator! So,

And The HEBREW scripture/Pasuk Name for the Apocalypse & Dispensation Era is T.i.K.K.U.N, meaning the 'MENDiNG' of Relation-Ship(s) between Apocalyptic HUE{mate's, not Preapocalyptic Human's, & their god for the HEALiNG of The Nations World Wide! So,

And the HiNDU Scriptures (Stanzas) bear the name B.H.G.A.V.A.D, meaning the B.L.E.S.S.i.N.G through which the Prophets of god 'Move-On' to Fullfill PEOPLE-WiSE; and so, this "NEW-AGE" {EKClat-arianity} is the Hindu/Buddhist BHAGAVADiA!aka KINDULA.

iMPORTANT: Pre-Apocalyptically computed, that via Mystical ASTROLOGiCALLY thinking (not ASTRO-NOMY like in our Equonoxal Allignment knowlege) this "NEW-AGE" (via the world "interfaith-Nation"s) also marks the EARTHs shift from the impinging of the PiSCEAN-AGE (Pre-Apocalyptarianity) upon Us To the impinging of the AQUARiUS-AGE (Apocalyptarianity) upon Us, the END OF THe M.A.Y.A.N. calandate and the Begining of the M-i-L-L-E-N-i-U-M!

PERSUANTLY, "EC{LAT-i-ON"s [Apocalyptarian Nationals] , not "EC{lat-i-OFF"s [Pre-Apocalyptarian Nationals], WE HUE{mates can identify the thinking of OUR Humanity , before this New "iNSiGHT & PATTERN RECOGNiTiON" became the 'Starlight/photonics/Synapse' of O.U.R. Brains (Frontal lobe) and

"T.R.A.N.S.{F.i.N.i.T.i.Z.e.d" OUR ability to Space-Forthly fathom ANY Flaws in O.U.R-FAiTH {New-Song} , such as those compromising the 'OLD-STORY' of our Primitive Ancestor's (MEMETiCs as Progenators of OUR Gene-Pool) , as "PRE-APOCALYPTiC"! aka NiCOLAiTAN(s)!

---

Paid For: By the U.S.A., 'JOC{TAN'-Eberu-Race ON Holy Cosmic NEBULA-Built Ma/Pa Earth! Not, No, Never via any PELEG {Dividers} Eberu Race Story’s anymore.

We , EC{LAT-i-ON's are a Prophecy Whose "TiME" (via Holy "TEMPERATURE") is Cometh, as Promised Us & as INHERiTENCE for ALL on this Holy Cosmic NEBULA-Built Ma/Pa-Earth(s) not via Quran(s), not Bible(s), not Gita(s) etc..!

Soo, Good Riddence Old-time Religions, competing & Hassling over a Name For their god (not O.U.R. G-D) as if be a genuine SYSTEM! Nice knowing YE SATANS/JiNNs/KALi/Durga...!

----
H A L L A L U Y A! Praise the Hol{i}-NO-MEN & No-Wo-Men!

- From Jacob J....Z

(O.rdained R.elationship M.inister {ORM} & Revelator & Defender, of the "HOLY-COSMIC-FEELER(s) FAITH" {Ho-Co-Fe-Fa} , [A Belief like Religion, but Better thats based on TRUTH, opposite of MYTH system(s)] and a CRUXOLOGIST & BIOMENTALIST of the "O.ne U.niversal R.eligion Book of TRANS{FINITY}" (YE Immortal REALiTY on a Hol{i} Cosmic Move awareness). aka "OUR-BOT."

September 7, 2008 11:52 AM

======= R. Mohler Jr. (4th)

Beware Of Them NiCOLAiTAN(s) [ Them Divinity acting, enemys ], Amazing () No Grace!

Hark! "SECULAR-Morality" is Superior to any BiBLiCAL-morality, if Any!

Goodbye [Forever] All, Every & Any of ye Pre-Apocalyptic SuperStupidStitious PLURALiSTiC lovin , competing for a name for a [man-made] dead god system, instead of [innate] “ O.U.R. G-D“, aka E{CLAT + i = LiFE/Photon awareness, aka religio TRUE (opposite of MYTH) "SiNGULARiTY" religio SYSTEM!.

note: Only The Satan/Jinn/Devil/Kali/Durga wants [Plurality] aka "DiViSiON" of competing religion(s)/god(s). Tantamount to "PLURALiTY" of.

Please see, any, holy Bible @ LUKE:12:51. So,

RAbbi JESUS lovers Worship [Evangelicals Armageddon lovers] WAR/DiViSiON, instead of EKCLAHT! Hence

Why We ,EKCLAHTARiAN's Nationalis

(each a unique Frontal-Lobe Hue{mate}, aka A CiTiZEN/DENiZEN of O.U.R. Holy Cosmic NEBULA BUiLT Ma/Pa-Earth(s))

are all called "KHATAN"ians, aka "JO{KTAN' Nationals" of AMERiCA SpaceForthing & FutureBounded for the Prophecy of 2013+!

Note: Thee Cosmic UNiVERSE is our O.U.R. & innate & real 'Constitution' via "IT"s own 'CLAUSES' arising [for Us] from "IT"s very own LAW(s) OF NATURE. Something to Magnify, uphold & make Honorable unto real END OF TiME (via TEMPERATURE not clock) +/- 2.4/3.3 Billion Years from Today!

Goodbye Grand-Ma/Pa SOLOR-SUN!
Goodbye Ma/Pa GEOiD-EARTH!
Goodbye Sister LUNA/MOON!
Goodbye Brethren MARSHiN-MARS!
Goodbye Cousin Liquid-TiTAN! Etc!

-- HELLO , Hello another ESCHATOLOGiCAL POSSiBiLiTY MOMENT of the O.U.R. awareness via the DUE-TO-BE-[again] Hol{i} Cosmic Placement Machine, working Us in another World again!

Note: We "MAGMAPERCOLATED" via the "OCEANiC-MEGA-PLUME-WOMB" & We are immortal "HEURiSTiC/a/o"s (SOUL) that Eternally , Yet still MIMETiCally , 'Planet-Hop' to other-Worlds, as we appeared in the Past placements, the Current & thence the Future again via the "Non-Gravity Place" of the Holy Cosmic "5th Dimension of the Hol{i} 9th "TiME" (Through the MEDiUM of O.U.R. MiRACULOUS Holy 'TEMPERATURE' awareness, not clock nor space time thinking)

GATEWAY To something from Nothing & nothing to something! aka via O.U.R. "HOLY COSMiC-MiZAN OF THE UNiVERSE" {BALANCEng Act/Purpose} similar to Universal CONSERVATiON OF PARiTY, via Hol{i},Absolute HOT & absolute COLD, "TEMPERATURE" mixing, aka real "TiME", not Clock/space, balancing!

This is YE genuine MiRACLE Apocalyptic song & story, not Tenach, Bible, Quran, Gita, Kangyur etc.. Pre-Apocalyptic song storys!

-----

iMAGiNE: No more Hasling over a NAME FoR a manmade 'god(s)' instead of "O.U.R. innate G-D" Hence EKCLAT, the Not-JEALOUS & thus FEARLESS Hol{i}-NO-MEN! nor NO-WO-MEN!

Goodbye Bollixed Evilgelical Church's, Synogogues, Moaques, Temples, Places of Organized Worship etc.. & their Nationals!

Goodbye Judeo-JU's!, [Rabbi MOZEUS]

Goodbye Judeo-Christos! [Rabbi JEZUES]

Goodbye Judeo-Islamics! [Trader MUHAMMAD]

Goodbye Judeo-Hindus! [Poet VYASA]

Goodbye Judeo-Buddhists! [Prince GAUTAMA]

Goodbye Hethens! [Sons & Daughters of the Mother Of HARLOTS of Babylon}

Goodbye Pagans, Wicaanss, Witches, Shamans , Queers et al! [Sodom & gommorah vile folks].

--- H E L L O --

A P O C A L Y P T A R i A N i T Y!

[Thee final Religion() of All Religion(s)].

A Religion like, who's 'TiME' (via hol{i} 'TEMPERATURE' awareness , not man made clock thinking ) based on TRUTH (opposite of MYTH).

Fact: We "HUE{MATE}-kinds, not HUMAN-unkinds, are together forever with "SOURCE-ONE" (Eponymous 'EC{LAT' + "i" = LiFE/Photons Awareness) and that We are Students Forever, of "IT" (G-d), and We Hue{mate}s never graduate!

How about You?

WHEREFORE: Magnify, Uphold & Make Honorable the "O.U.R.-B.O.T." [the Religio of Everything before the Science of Everything]. The Last Wonder of the religio Song & Storys! A NEW-SONG, coming from All YE OLD-SONG storys!

Therefore: "Like A Caterpillar TRANSMUTEs into a Butterfly.." Tantamount to saying: "Once "i" was Lost, but now "i" am Found!" Hence, Never again say AMEN/AMON/AMEEN, instead Sing:

THANK YOU Great Great Great Grand-MA/PA Holy Cosmic Ma/Pa GALAXY Built-NEBULA, like OUR Grand-Ma/Pa Solor/sun SYSTEM was BEGOT of Many!

Most iMPORTANT: O.U.R. G-d, is neither-A "He"/him/his nor a "She/her. Simply sayth G-D is an "IT" being "iTSELF" in and of Us All! A genuine Birth awareness as Miracle & not/Never is "IT" an insane Biblical Sin/Curse Birth Story!

NOTE: Then, All them Judeo-Evangelical Christo Kids, are Born in Cursed/Sin story; , never OUR: Us 'EC{LATARiAN' -- NATiONALiS's MEMETiCs (posterity) of America!!

Remember: We Hue{mate}'s are All SON(s) & DAUGHTER(s) [MEMEtic's] of the Creator of Apocalyptic Hol{i}-PHOTON awareness , not Pre-Apocalyptic un-holy Biblical light Song & Storys!

V O T E: Sacred Marriage is between a real Man {MAVORiTE} & a real Lady {SPORADE}, never by a Man & a Man etc..!
--------------------------------------------------

HALLALUYA! Praise The Hol{i}-No-MEN! [never is nor was nor can "IT" or "iTSELF" be, a HE or a She incarnate!

Praise the HOL{i}-Cosmic Fiat Lux! Not Beyond GENiSiS:1:1,2,3.

W A R N i N G:
W A R N i N G:
W A R N i N G:

Never Go Past or Beyond GENiSiS:1;1,2,3. Never! Or YE (you & World) will be BOLLiXED!

---
Submitted: By the JO{KTAN} Eberu Race of AMERiCA & the 'EC{LAT-ARiAN' PLORETARiATE MOVEMENT 2013+.

For third time Originally Poste SEPTEMBER, 6, 2008, 6:34PM, but Jealously Deleted by Satans in wolfs Garb.

======

=========

======= R. Albert Mohler Jr. (3rd)

All Comments (99)
Something on 'Organized Religious Leaders' acting as Religio Mafiosos Chiefs in USA:

Att: A N O N Y M O U S @ 12:19Pm.Today.

Interesting: Ye saith, ".. Why the double standard on the sanctity of life?

Why: Because Apocalyptically Speaking, and as mentioned, so so many times on WAPO, that Them 'Anti-Abortionist(s), i.e., EVANGELiCAL, aka Evilgelical(s), aka Jealousical(s), All Hath

"DOUBLE STANDARD PSYCHOSiS" & "Pre-Apocalyptic Syndrome" & or "Religious Jealousy Psychosis."

iMPORTANT: The 'Average' Evangelical, like Richard LAND & Albert Mohler , & similarly situated on 'onfaith'here that , all hath acute "Synergetic-less: Split Minded Thinking!"

They are Satanicaly Driven via Bible @ LUKE:14:26 & need a Rude awakening; even by using force if need be. And Driven by allthem RAbbi JEZEUS Lovers @ LUKE 12:51 (Evangelicals Churchs against Secular STATE/FED/Gov, and or Non-Evangelicals!

Their (not OUR) "imported" [un]godly Books , aka Bibles, Qurans, Gita, Tripitakas, Scrutis.. & also their (not OUR)so called "Religion" are "NOT MADE , nor Propheceid here, IN AMERiCA!"

They are an Insult to O.U.R. intelligence & a Direct & Indirect THREAT to Us "Apocalyptarian Nationalis", aka each is being a unique DENiZEN/CiTiZEN, justly for a TiME, on Holy Cosmic, Ma.Pa NEBULA-BUiLT, Space Ship Earth(s), of Many., aka S.S. GAiA, S.S. GEOiD, S.S. TELLUSng something.

Point: It is Time to Remove All of Their United States

[CHURCH(s) Encroaching on (willfull or Not) SECULAR/State Business, Modern Morality issues etc.]

'I.R.S. "Tax-Exempt Status's" (a SECULAR 501c3 Privilige, not a Right), starting with Rick WARREN's 4-Saddleback Churches in California, U.S.A. for attempting to stage a TELEvangelical Coup D Atat of OOU SECULAR Government in Sweet Sweet America; and for a Church Abstructing Justice via Anti U.S. SUPREME COURT [secular[ Biz!! and other , so called, Leagal Beaver Reasons!

PS: Let them So-called 'Anti-Abortionist' & their Organized CHURCH based Institution(s),aka diaquised as not for PROPHET, but PROFiT Business's, take care , or adopt ALL, EVERY & ANY wanted or unwanted 'BABY SYNDROMED" Child. This

includes Prividing Care for Sara Palins 5th Baby! Howq about thiose Poor moms with defective babys?

Note: These selfserving EViLGELiCAL , Anti-SECULAR & Anti-Abortionists, should foot the support, Costs, Expenses & or Bills therefrom, to ALL Mothers (re-godless) who bring about a wanted or 'unwanted' Hue{mate}. And Hello anti-Condum Vatican Church too!??

Note: And WE must make sure Them Evangelicals will recieve ZERO, nada , tax payed Hand-Outs, via any "Faith Based initiative" Moneys.

Vote: Reverse & Abolish Reagans/Clintons/Bush's "Faith Based Initiatives" EXECUTiVE Order(s)! THAT is what's Broken & thus needs a Prophetic FiXiNG 1st, et al! And

Vote: Fortwith to Legally REmove ALL, Every & Any thing that looks like a "CHURCH, or Religious, ESTABLiSHED" in OUR STRUCTURE OF THE Federal/State GOVERNMENT" and to

not/Never Allocate/Appropriate any Tax money's to Any Religio Member/Leadership there from: (Church(s), Synogogues, Mosques, Temples..). They must be left to fend on their own.

Specifically : PRiSON Chaplains, MiLiTARY Chaplain(s), Chuck Colsons PRiSON MiNiSTRiES , Evangelical Church owned or sponsored Private Prisons in U.S.A. etc,..et al..!

Fact: Evangelicals hold & Share, between themselves, 70% of the GNP in U.S.A! Talking about Pork Barrel, best interest etc..! Sham & Schame!

iNCAMERA(Secret) as long as that annual $2 Billion so called "Faith Based Intiatives" stays on the Presidential Bush's Executive order, That these CHURCH Leaders will 'ENRiCH Themselves & then use some of that money to Promote therir Agendas! Like re-Introducing 'Intelligent Designer Rabbi JESUS, the Creator Story's, etc..!

Note: These Religio Satanic Pre-Apocalyptic Mafios'o Leaders, will do anything (includes Lying, Trickery, Cheating, bribing, curruption..) to Promote & Enforce their (not OUR) Most EViL STORY EVER TOLD, aka the "DRUNKiN Racist NOAH Story's" et seq!

Like a Cancer, We need to Kill Their 'Imported Religion ([man-Made] SYSTEMS, competing & Hassling for a name for 'their god', instead of 'OUR [innate] G-D').

Goodbye JERUSALEM!
Goodbye VATiCAN!
Goodbye MECCA!
Goodbye CANTERBURY!
Goodbye HELLENiCS!
Goodbye TiBET, NEPAL, ARMiSTAR etc..
Goodbye PAGANS, HETHENS, Wiches, Wicaans, Shamns, Voddoists..

H E L L O: NEW YORK! The Cradle Of 'EC{LAT{ARiANity}, a 'Holy Cosmic Feelers Faith. (Ho-Co-Fe-Fa) is Prophetically Borneth! And the Center of the O.ne U.niversal R.eligion: B.ook O.f T.ransfinity" (O.U.R.-B.O.T.), aka The Hol{i)-Cosmic-Bible!

Vote: For "The Religion of Everything, before the Science of Everything."

Vote: For the "SiNGULARiTY" of All Pre-Apocalyptic PLURALiSTiC Religio as Belief or Faith Based, System(s) on Space-Ship Earth Today!

A Apocalyptic genuine MONO (innate) G-D System(), never again a Pre-Apocalyptic PLOYTHEistic (man Made) as if TRUE (opposite of MYTH) god System(s).

--- VOTE: i.e., To illegalize All 'iMPORTation' [not made in America] of the KiNG James Version {a monopoly owned by QUEEN of England & Canterburys} un-holy Bible(s) & all ritual Paraphenelia & their (not OUR) Accessarys.

-- Remember the "'EC{LAT{ARiAN' CREED"

"MODERN-Morality (APOCALYPTARiANiTY) is Superior to ANY BiBLICAL-Morality (PRE-Apocalyptarianity) SYSTEM!"

---
Sponsored by the "JO{KTAN}" Nationalis Party U.S. Of A." & by the "EC{LAT}ARiAN MOVEMENT" for Gridarian Democracy & Trans{FiNite} CiCiLiZATiON, 2013+!

Originally posted September 6, 2008 3:27 PM, but JEALOUSLy deleted.

What a load of malarkey and typical of these "believers." When a democrat become illegitimately pregnant is is proof of the left's permissive anti-God lifestyle. When it happens to a republican it is "oh well, MAN is a sinner, and God forgives."

Now we get them saying that the bible is correct when it says that women are second-class citizens that have to submit to men. Yeah, I heard you, "women are equal they just have different roles assigned." Just as slaves were equal, they just had different roles and had to submit to master. This is what you antecedents preached in the antebellum south wasn't it, Mr. Mohler?

I guess you can have your cake and eat it in your distorted view. If Palin does become VP, which I sincerely doubt, she will be second to a man. Where would you stand, Mr. Mohler, if that happened and McCain died in office? Would you then demand that Palin stay VP and a man be chosen to take McCain's place so the biblical "law" could be upheld?

Dr. Mohler,
Thank you for your helpful clarification on this issue. It truly is laughable that feminists are asking these questions of Sarah Palin. These are the exact questions that they would normally be appalled by. They would be asking why no one is asking Barack Obama what kind of father he will be to his girls if he is elected. It just goes to show that feminists are less concerned with the advancement of women in society, and instead chiefly concerned with the advancement of liberal idealogy.

Self denial and self interest isn't reason enough to choose an unexperienced backward's politician into National office. Please note, religion is no place for allowing serious decisions to be made via prayer. Heck let's just go to Iran and/or Israel for decision-making....

IT IS NOT A MATTER for a Democratic point of view if Palin can or can not handle her duties of mom and VP, even though the Republican Karl Rove Mind Screw Machine wants convence Americans that the Democrats are attacking her on that issue.

The question is that Palin is an idealogue, who will reinforce Christian Radicals belief that they have the MORAL AUTHORITY to control your private life. . . . . And the Southern Baptist lead that parade of nazis.

KEEP THE EVANGELIST'S AND ANY RELIGION OUT OF OUR GOVERNMENT!! LET'S START TAXING THEM AS AN ENTITY TRYING TO PUT THEIR IDEOLOGY ON THIS COUNTRY. TAX, TAX, TAX. MAKE EM PAY. whiteagle38

For Pete's sakes, I'm tired of feminist bashing and questioning of women's true priorities. Most women today want both family and to earn a decent living. As a child, I knew mothers of 7 who went to law school, others (4 kids) who became mayor of my hometown, and others who taught, owned their own businesses and more.

Feminists brought us the vote, ability to get credit in our own names, equality under the law (to some degree) and more. They also helped make laws concerning equality of education.

Southern Baptists or other people who take every word in the Bible literally did not assist in any of these advances, yet they benefit from them.

Palin can't serve the country because she represents views held by only about half of the country and shows no signs of being able to even try to or want to understand the concerns of "the rest of us". A president or vice president is there to serve the ENTIRE population, not just the people whose views jibe with theirs. The choice of Palin says to me that the Republicans don't care about the whole country...only the part of the populace who agrees with her, I feel, extreme positions.

Re: "The vast majority of women find their greatest joy and fulfillment in the roles of wife and mother." Here's what I don't get. It takes a man and a woman to have a child, and it takes a man and a woman to have a marriage. So if there must be, by definition, husbands and fathers in order to have children and marriages, does Mr. Mohler believe that God has placed in the hearts of most MEN a deep desire for the fulfillment of marriage and the raising of children as life priority? If not, why not, when by His design they are equally necessary for children and marriages? This seems like a huge oversight...

Wow.

This guy got to write an article.

Who is Mohler, and why should we care what he thinks? Don't we have enough wingnuts and GOP hacks filling up the pages and airwaves with their garbage? Oh yes. Yes we do. Palin has quickly shown herself to be a liar, a hypocrite, unethical, and utterly unqualified to be vice president of the United States. Yet Mohler is "enourgaged" by the nomination of this trailer trash? Come on. It's just Mc Cain pandering to his wingnut base.

Palin has attended Alaskan Independent Party meetings (they want to secede), she has extreme rightwing views (who in this day and age is against birth control, and how is that working for you, Sarah?) and she's exactly what this country does not need.

I am not good at reading between the lines. I sometimes and misinterpret an admirable intention of one as belonging to another. Easy to mistake as this person carries that trait. However, I agree with this comments below by another poster.

"Baptist women are abused as are muslim women."

"The better way is to let the Bible trump all other documents of faith and follow its straightforward teaching that husbands and wives are to be submissive to one another in a relationship of mutual love and for us to recognize that women as well as men are fully capable of leadership at any level including being President of the United States."

I guess this means that all Muslims get a free pass to Gitmo, and everything goes for Anglo Saxons, even if their daughter is all knocked up and still in high school, and the new VP used to be a beauty queen. That is for air heads. I would disown my kids if they did that. But then I am a Muslim Asian. Once, a long time ago, even Christians used to be like that.

B R E A K i N G -- N E W S:

Palin Agrees to ABC News Interview
By Mike Allen,

Politico.com

posted: 1 HOUR 28 MINUTES AGO [Source: aol news today].

Mike Allen? Who is Mike Allen?

Palin is the AntiChrist.

The question:
Women can be presidents but not pastors? I don't understand. I would like somebody to explain this to me.

My response:
The answer is related to the concept best presented by St. Augustine a few years ago.
The christian, according to the bible, is "in the world, but not of the world". In other words, their faith is to be integrated into their life to the point that things of God(faith)supercede the "pragmatism" of the world and it's concerns.
St. Augustine descibed this concept as two cities; The City of Man and The City of God.
The Christian resides in both.
The City of Man would include the areas of civic reponsibility. The City of God includes the responsibilties to God.

Therefore a woman may be a candidate for president; a civic office. And a woman my not be a candidate for pastor; a spiritual office.

Of course there are those who debate the prohibition of a woman holding a pastors position, but the orthodox christian position is as above.

Do not be fooled. Mohler only supports Palin because she's on the conservative republican ticket. The Southern Baptist Seminary has never had a woman president and never will. The do have programs for the "Special Needs" of women. Read: "we care about the little ladies, bless their hearts."

Condescending yes or no? Mohler is self serving and splitting hairs in this essay. Baptist women are abused as are muslim women. And they like it! Brainwashed.

I am confused. Apparently R. Albert Mohler, Jr. wants wives to be submissive to their husbands on the one hand and totally free and independent on the other. To Mohler this may be inerrant and infallible, but to any objective mind it is illogical.

Imagine a wife being ruled by her husband in the home while at the same time that same husband is being ruled as a citizen by his wife the President! What comes first in her life? Is she the President of all the citizens except her husband? Or, is she a wife whose Presidential authority is limited?

For example, what would a President do if her husband demanded she stay home and take care of the kids during a nuclear attack? Disobey God's will according to Mohler's belief or fail in her God-sworn oath to her citizens to uphold the Constitution? Admittedly a far- fetched example, but one that points out the inconsistency of Mohler's argument.

Such is the quagmire one finds himself in when he raises to equal status the God-breathed Bible with a man-made Confession of Faith as Albert Mohler obviously stated in his article. The better way is to let the Bible trump all other documents of faith and follow its straightforward teaching that husbands and wives are to be submissive to one another in a relationship of mutual love and for us to recognize that women as well as men are fully capable of leadership at any level including being President of the United States.

Finally, R. Albert Mohler, Jr. should know that his much admired Queen Elizabeth I is also known as the "virgin queen" because she was never anyone's wife, although she apparently enjoyed the sexual pleasures of many men. For a seminary president to admire her as an example of virtue really does confuse me!

So, what you're saying here, Lazarus, is that you believe your religion makes any given representative of your Dominionism more important than a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, therefore you feel entitled to have it both ways when it suits you, even if you hate our freedom.

You may believe what you like in your own precincts, Lazarus.

This doesn't give anyone waving a Bible the right to claim unquestioned authority in a free country.

Quite the contrary.

And you're why.

I goto church several times a week. Should I be a candidate? Please note that twice a week I provide my priest with the "ultimate favor" sexual favor free of charge (he is really good looking!).

To those who equate the sphere of civil government with the government of Christ's church... and disparage orthodox Christianity as 'backwards', homophobic, sexist, etc...

The office of POTUS is merely one in a country on a tiny planet that represents but a speck of dust within the known universe. And that very universe was simply spoke into existence by the eternal One who alone sits at the apex of honor, glory, dominion and power! Doesn't that Being get to decide HOW He wants to be worshipped and His government managed? Doesn't God Almighty get to decide how He wants His people to organize and interrelate within the sphere of His worship? BY ALL MEANS!

This is precisely how a woman CAN run for POTUS and yet not be 'qualified' to be pastor. Because the God of Christianity said so. No inconsistency whatsoever.

To those who claim to be 'christians' but hold to rank egalitarianism...take it up with God...I'm sure He'll be impressed with your humanistic reasonings...

It is my understanding that avery impontant character in that adult fary tale called the Bible made himsself very drunk and was "sexually abusdeed" by his own daughters. Now... about moeality... at what time did the last train to hell pass by here?

Palin is just George W. Bush in a pantsuit - do not be deceived. Glamor is all about good looks, lipstick and fashion - and the heart of a demon.

After the Bush deception, you'd think republicans would be smarter than that. But they aren't.

The devil in a blue dress is a damn sight better looking than John McCain.....

Choirboy: ,"You people! You people are outstanding examples of dysfunction and why Christianity is neither to be respected or believed."

**************
Don't look to people as examples of Christianity, look at Jesus Christ.

People are human and make mistakes. Christians are in different growth stages and often time others see more of their old ways of coping then as they would be as a mature Christian. It takes a long time to mature in Christ, if you had non-Christian ways for more then 20-30 years do you think that it would take any less time to adapt to a whole new way of living?

You will find Jesus Christ to be that Christian example that you are looking for. If your eyes are on a man as an example then when that man falls or disappoints you then you fall away from believing.

Keep your eyes on God, not man.
My post was not meant to be sarcastic, just trying to see if you know about it and are part of the truth that is occurring. Mistakes are made by us all but to continue in the anger and distension is not good for anyone. To love is good. It is an opportunity to end the war.

Yes... Sarah Palin will be the "Monica Lewinsky" for John McBush.

Tood Burns, "Maybe you should think about interpreting the Constitution literally, because if you did you would find that there is no mention of "separation of church and state" anywhere. This phrase was actually coined and came to mean what it does today after a misinterpretation of a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 (Constitution written in 1787). This misinterpretation occurred out of context in a judicial opinion which it didn't even belong in by an activist judge, Hon. Hugo Black, in 1947."

So are you suggesting that the "separation of church and state" even though a judicial opinion which was made by an activist judge
is not enforceable?

Att: A N O N Y M O U S @ 5:18 PM;

Which Timothy: 1 or 2?

Many times I have heard from the pulpit how some Christian's like to pick some scriptures here and there to live by. You know, like Home Town Buffet. Putting yourself out there with a hodgepodge answer leaves some of us wishing you would just keep it to yourself. There is a question I have thought about during this run for the White House, what candidate would be able to stand up to the "Churches" qualifications according to Timothy 3:1-13. Verse two eliminates one candidate already.

Gov. Palin reads a good speech and she is already fit to be VP and everybody goes 'ga-ga'. We're in the hole of "American Idolatry" and the far right has no God if they are looking for idols.

If you don't read anything else about Palin, please read this:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/kilkenny.asp

If you think it's worthwhile, please pass it on! All Americans deserve to know all they can about someone who might be President.

The Baptists in the 18th Century were persecuted in America by Anglicans and Puritans. Therefore they were in favor of separation of Church and State and supported Thomas Jefferson. Now the Baptists, at least their southern redneck branch, are all in favor of Christian Fascism. We must reject them. Albert Mohler can always be counted on to support fascistic policies and bigoted positions. Thus far have the Baptists come.

Wrong question. Of course a woman of faith can serve country and family. The real questions are: "Is she best qualified?" and "Did John McCain pick her without really checking anything but her hot chick photos?" Qualifications, judgement and critical thinking and problem-solving for real people (not millionaires) are what's needed. Get out your air castles and join the real world for a change.

Kevin, "I may find women's opinions about whether a woman should be the President of the United States or a pastor interesting, but God's word is the only word that matters."

Truly spoken…but considered this, there are those who interpret God’s word out of context and this happens for various reasons which is too lengthy to go into now. But the end result of that is that Christians according to scripture are supposed to obey the laws and only in cases where the law would result into crossing the line into sin can a Christian question or resist doing it.

Palin should not in any way be incorporating scripture or referencing her personal beliefs of “Gods plan” to any governing body that has a say in determining approvals or disapprovals of any plans that relate to or will be using government funds to fulfill that plan or a part of Government. To do so would be a breach in the law of separation of church and state.

Palin’s actions with this is very disturbing and just plain inappropriate for a Christian to do. Palin should obey the law of keeping church and state separate and leave her personal convictions about the issues to her prayer life.

Concernedaboutmycountry, "*Hard right on social issues.
-- No abortions are allowed even in the case of rape, incest, or the health of the mother.
-- Sex education in schools are bad.
* Ms. Palin invokes God’s name when dealing with very secular matters.
-- Sending children to fight the Iraq War is “God’s task” and building a pipeline across the state is “God’s plan."

What is happening here is that Palin has lost or does not have a dividing line between her Christianity and her secular responsibilities. As a result she “integrates” the two and should not be doing that.

Having Christian beliefs are personal between the individual and God and is not to be used in a secular setting. For Palin to involve her Christian beliefs by stating that it is God’s plan to do something is imposing her Christian beliefs on those who are involved in the task, decision, or plan. It is worse for a person in a leadership position to state that it is God’s plan when in a secular setting because the people who disagree or are not of the Christian faith can feel pressured about making their decision and that could be viewed as a form of coercion.

I have concluded that Palin cannot be trusted with more power in a state government position. If Palin has not yet achieved the “dividing line” at this point and has used it to govern her state she would be very likely to continue practicing the same “integration” method that she is using now.

However, I do not think that it is right for some to try and have her terminated in her current position, as I have said before, why would you allow that, do you understand?? I don’t support Obama either. So, for the first time in my life I will not be voting in this election.

It amazes me first that you feel you can speak for all feminists. Many of us feel very strongly about motherhood. It is also amazing that you would put an entire group of women into one box and shut the lid. Is that what your faith teaches you? Third, although this discussion is worthwhile, the serious discussion that is being ignored while we discuss what mothers may and may not really be ABLE to do (not CAN or ARE PERMITTED to do) is that it is irresponsible for any American voter to elect a blind date to the White House, woman or man. Eight weeks is not enough time to get to know someone who has all of our lives in their hands. Surely, even evangelicals realize that there is no one group of humans who are perfect or all good. We've had popes who were sinners and ministers who were sinners - so having accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior isn't enough to qualify you to be president. You invite new neighbors in for supper and you look forward to getting to know them, but you don't give them your check book. Bottom line, this ticket cannot be accepted because it is an unknown. How long did it take us to really understand the power of the Lord in our lives? Who knows who Sarah Palin really is - and whether she has an idea of what it takes to run our country beyond what she is learning today from people we don't even know. This is not a male/female or even an evangelical/non-evangelical issue. It is a human issue - 8 weeks is not enough time for the American people to know whether the gift is as good as the wrapping. My prayers are with us all.

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

A good Wiccan spell should protect JM and keep him in good health for the next 4.5 years at least.

From the columnist:

"Feminists are bewildered and frustrated by the fact that the vast majority of women find their greatest joy and fulfillment in the roles of wife and mother. Most women do not want to be Vice President of the United States, nor to make the sacrifices necessary in order to succeed in the public arena."

No, this is the conservatives' *cartoon* about feminists.

In actual fact, feminists these days recognize that raising families, and especially special needs kids, is *real work, too,* ...not one to be imposed on women, or in fact, trivialized by those who are rewarded for taking away the same chances from those with less money and privilege.

Of course, religious conservatives even *now* insist that women are really suited only for the roles they command, ...and then build an economy where even mothers *have* to work outside the home. This doesn't mean they respect womens' equality in *either* respect.

Palin's just being rewarded (and used) for telling others to obey an alliance between radical religion and corporate greed. That's not 'feminism,' she seeks to take freedom from other women.

Feminists of today are trying to get *paid maternity leave,* not pretend motherhood (or the office of VP) are so trivial that it's all just to be used to pander for a candidate the Fundamentalists hated a couple months ago, even if it puts a dangerously-radical and unqualified person one unit of McCain's health away from the Presidency.

I actually grew up a Baptist. I am so disgusted by the hypocrisy I see by Evangelicals I assure you I will NEVER be coming back! Evangelicals deserve NO serious respect as a group (although on an individual basis, I acknowledge there are a FEW wonderful exceptions!)

==============================================================================
What hypocrisy am I referring to?
The hypocrisy you put full POLITICAL support behind a female version of a Dick Cheney/George Bush.
Per Sarah Palin:

* More oil drilling is the answer

-- Scientists and businessmen – even Boone Pickens -- have said more oil drilling is not the answer to our future needs.

-- FACTS: oil from future reserves in ANWR or offshore would be relatively small to our annual oil consumption, take 5-10 years to go online, and likely have a small impact (1-5%) on oil prices even then,

* Global Warming is not real/Environmental protection is bad.

-- Ms. Palin takes the far right (Dick Cheney) view that global warming is not the result of man made activities. Therefore more drilling is ok. There is no single issue more serious for our country – and the world - -in future generations.

-- Ms Palin is extreme anti-environmental. She is currently suing the DNR to over-turn it's slim protections on polar bears. She also has/intends to revoke other protections on endangered species and is pro-aerial hunting of wolves (an endangered species).

* Pandering for entitlements for large spending projects and then LYING she was a spending reformer.

-- Ms. Palin’s record is NOT anti-spending/pork. She was very involved with Washington in getting some of the biggest entitlement spending for her local constituents.

-- She used the $300 Million Bridge to Nowhere as the example on stage with McCain for her being anti-pork: FACTS: she was a very strong supporter of this federal entitlement project, even mentioning it in her governor’s address. She flip flopped only after major unfavorable national media attention was given to the project.

-- In addition under Palin, the state government's earmark requests to Congress in her first year in office exceeded $550 million, more than $800 per resident. Other states got just $34 worth of local projects per person this year, on average. When major her town had a balanced budget when she came into office and a $22 million deficit when she left office.

But lying is ok if you are on the hard right (???)

* Hard right on social issues.

-- No abortions are allowed even in the case of rape, incest, or the health of the mother.
-- Sex education in schools are bad.
-- Creationism should be taught in science class (whose version should be taught, Ms. Palin since this is religion? The Hindu version?)

-- Obviously no one can control their children. But Ms. Palin put on HUGE smiles that this was really good news? Come again? Then the principle should apply to everyone – i.e., be good news for everyone who has a baby out of wedlock. If there is a double standard here, well yes this is HYPOCRISY.

* Ms. Palin invokes God’s name when dealing with very secular matters.

-- Sending children to fight the Iraq War is “God’s task” and building a pipeline across the state is “God’s plan.”

-- God’s name is not similarly invoked to help the poor/needy. Ms. Palin cut taxes on companies and raised sales taxes. It is the latter that is a regressive tax on the poor/needy.

Looking at Ms. Palin’s walk: one would suppose Jesus only cares about outlawing abortion and being pro-war – not helping the poor. Is that what Jesus talked about in the New Testament? Of course not. Jesus never mentions the topic of abortion in the NT, but talks a great deal about helping the poor.

Summary: I see another big effort by Evangelicals to put another Cheney/Bush clone in the White House.
This will guarantee a downward spiral for our country.

Not my fault you might say:
No it WILL be your fault!

.

I actually grew up a Baptist. I am so disgusted by the hypocrisy I see by Evangelicals I assure you I will NEVER be coming back! Evangelicals deserve NO serious respect as a group (although on an individual basis, I acknowledge there are a FEW wonderful exceptions!)

==============================================================================
What hypocrisy am I referring to?
The hypocrisy you put full POLITICAL support behind a female version of a Dick Cheney/George Bush.
Per Sarah Palin:

* More oil drilling is the answer

-- Boone Pickens has said more oil drilling is not the answer.

-- Ms. Palin insists drilling oil is an important solution to our energy problems FACTS: oil from future reserves in ANWR or offshore would be relatively small to our annual oil consumption, take 5-10 years to go online, and likely have a small impact (1-5%) on oil prices even then,

* Global Warming is not real/Environmental protection is bad.

-- Ms. Palin takes the far right (Dick Cheney) view that global warming is not the result of man made activities. Therefore more drilling is ok. There is no single issue more serious issue facing for our country – and the world - -for future generations.

-- Ms Palin is extreme anti-environmental. She is currently suing the DNR to over-turn it's slim protections on polar bears. She also has/intends to revoke other protections on endangered species and is pro-aerial hunting of wolves (an endangered species).

* Pandering for entitlements for large spending projects and then LYING she was a spending reformer.

-- Ms. Palin’s record is NOT anti-spending/pork. She was very involved with Washington in getting some of the biggest entitlement spending for her local constituents.

-- She used the $300 Million Bridge to Nowhere as the example on stage with McCain for her being anti-pork: FACTS: she was a very strong supporter of this federal entitlement project, even mentioning it in her governor’s address. She flip flopped only after major unfavorable national media attention was given to the project.

-- In addition Under Palin, the state government's earmark requests to Congress in her first year in office exceeded $550 million, more than $800 per resident. Other states got just $34 worth of local projects per person this year, on average. When major her town had a balanced budget when she came into office and a $22 million deficit when she left office.

But lying is ok if you are on the hard right (???)

* Hard right on social issues.

-- No abortions are allowed even in the case of rape, incest, or the health of the mother.
-- Sex education in schools are bad.
-- Creationism should be taught in science class (whose version should be taught, Ms. Palin since this is religion? The Hindu version?)

-- Obviously no one can control their children. But Ms. Palin put on HUGE smiles that this was really good news? Come again? Then the principle should apply to everyone – i.e., be good news for everyone who has a baby out of wedlock. If there is a double standard here, well yes this is HYPOCRISY.

* Ms. Palin invokes God’s name when dealing with very secular matters.

-- Sending children to fight the Iraq War is “God’s task” and building a pipeline across the state is “God’s plan.”

-- God’s name is not similarly invoked to help the poor/needy. Ms. Palin cut taxes on companies and raised sales taxes. It is the latter that is a regressive tax on the poor/needy.

Looking at Ms. Palin’s walk: one would suppose Jesus only cares about outlawing abortion and being pro-war – not helping the poor. Is that what Jesus talked about in the NT. Of course not. Jesus never mentions the topic of abortion in the NT, but talks a great deal about helping the poor.

Summary: I see another big effort by Evangelicals to put another Cheney/Bush clone in the White House.
This will guarantee a downward spiral for our country.

Not my fault you might say:
No it WILL be your fault!

There is no terror more terrifying than the terrorism of the horror of horror itself. Those who live in horror of horror itself, paint a big grin on it and call it gay. It is writ that when the nerd calls itself geek and the grind calls itself nerd the Tower of Babel will be rebuilt and ask the Big Question of the Turing Machine:

It's 3AM, who ya gonna call?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4uxIo4t7xM

A seminary professor (RTS) once put it this way:

1. In the HOME, God established MEN as the head (authoritative leader).
2. In the CHURCH, God established MEN as elders (authoritative leaders).
3. In the WORSHIP of the Church (which is central & sets precedent for other areas of life) God has declared MEN should be the leaders.

I would add to this:
4. While the precedent remains, the precedent does not absolutely prohibit women from serving in positions of leadership especially when called upon and the need demands or requires it (for example, Deborah led, but when a MAN would not stand up to the call, etc.)
5. Given the circumstances of the present election, and as with all elections, this issue of a woman serving in this capacity must be looked upon as one among many factors (both by the woman considering the office, as well as by voters who will decide whether to give her their vote) ... and while accusations of "inconsistency" will be placed at the feet of Christians regardless of legitimate grounds and rationale; the Scripture provides the basis and justification for us making right judgments in this situation (just as with all other situations according to the specifics of the respected case). Regardless of criticisms of others, Christians can act consistently (even if support is given to a woman for a public office while limiting the role of leadership in the church to men) as we stand on the principles of Scripture which both recognize the dignity of men and women but distinguish the roles of each.

The topic at hand is whether women can be leaders of both the religions and democracies of the world and here we see the influence of "prude" Paul.

Galatians 3:28 ("There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus") is, according to some historic Jesus exegetes, not credible as a historical utterance by either Jesus or Paul. It is the only time Paul considers women as being equivalent to men.

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/013_Two_As_One

And Paul's apparent real utterances about women give credence to this conclusion.

e.g.

"He (Paul) feared the turn-on of women's voices as much as the sight of their hair and skin..... At one point he even suggests that the sight of female hair might distract any angel in church attendance (1 Cor. 11:10). Professor Bruce Chilton in his book, Rabbi Paul, pulls no punches in criticizing one of the founders of Christianity. Again, basically Paul was a "prude".

Professor Chilton btw is a Professor of Religion at Bard College and a priest at the Free Church of St. John in Barrytown, NY.

And the following:

"In 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 Paul writes: “But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.” He goes on to say that “any woman who prays or prophesies” should keep her head covered, whereas a man should never cover his head, “since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.)”

In 1 Corinthians 14:33-35, Paul gives us the famous injunction, “… women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.” This theme is taken up again in 1 Timothy 2:11-15, where women are instructed to dress modestly and to keep silent in church: “For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.”

Ephesians 5:21-32 is the passage that is read at every Orthodox marriage ceremony, so it’s already quite well known to us. This is the passage in which women are told to be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord, which Paul repeats briefly in his letter to the Colossians (3:18). The husband, Paul explains, “is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.” While women are to be subject to their husbands, so men are to love their wives “as their own bodies.” “This is a great mystery,” Paul says, “and I take it to mean Christ and the church.”

Simply add Paul's thinking about women to the list of flaws in the foundations of Christianity and a major reason why women have been discriminated against for these so many, many years.

Evangelicals -- got George Bush elected.

Is it no wonder they want Sarah Palin elected too?

Evangelicals obviously care NOTHING about unjust wars, deficits, and doing nothing on global warming.
They care nothing about helping the poor and disadvantaged.

They care about outlawing abortion even in cases of rape and incest.

Yes. Sarah Palin is just their kind of gal. A George Bush in a skirt.

Sparrow,

That was a very good, well written, in depth post. Thanks from those of us who can still think and not just react.

Now then, St Sarah can probably juggle things as VP, since she can hire assorted nannies, meanwhile ignoring the all-important bonding so necessary with a newborn.

But, God forbid, if Old Man John drops dead, St Sarah is suddenly POTUS. At that point, forget family, it is now a job 24/7, no exceptions, and don't try to emulate the current occupant of the oval office, who has spent 1/3 of his tenure out of DC cutting brush, parading around on an aircraft carrier, trying to look regal in a plane over the ruins of New Orleans, or riding a bicycle. A soldier must be available at any time, anywhere, to go wherever he/she is needed. The pres must be available at once for whatever. It ain't no game, no ego power trip, any more. Forget delegating, and the Hecka-of-a-job-Brownie' cop-outs. Do the job, you are the commander in chief, and therefore you are a soldier.

Waiting for the right-wingers to make excuses....

Send Hooter-Mom back to her love shack, so she can pop out some more special-needs children for other people to take care of!

Blackees in the Whitee House, oh my!

I hardly know where to begin. But the only description I see that fits is "talking out of both sides of your mouth." Palin's ability to be president of the United States is a question that concerns all of us. Not whether or not as a woman she is capable. The real question is whether or not someone who is a staunch evangelical christian fundamentalist can hold the priorities and beliefs she professes to have along with the responsibilities and adherence to the constitution and bill of rights that a vice president and president must have as their first priorities.

I don't think she can- but if she were a man, I'd say the same thing. The religious right has made its beliefs and priorities an issue in government. Palin supports programs that teach sexual abstinence to the exclusion of all else. She believes family is a first priority, she tried to have books banned from a public library because she found them offensive to her type of christian belief. For many years the conservatives and the religious right have claimed "family values" as their mantra. So when Sally Quinn asks if Palin can be an evangelical and a vice president, she isn't talking about her capabilities, she's questioning the seeming ability of Palin to segue from one to the other with nary a thought.

Vice President isn't the same as bank manager. The things required of a president or vice president don't run 9-5, M-F. Palin and her husband chose to have 5 children. One child is a lot of work. 5 is far more- Palin seemingly has the money to pay for help, but she gave birth to an infant with downs syndrome 5 months ago. Wouldn't you question the thinking and attitude of anyone who would walk out of the house 3 days after to go to work. Or who would then take on the campaign for veep? I do. I'm sure she could handle the position and family (I still don't think she's qualified but that's another story). but why does she?

It has to be personal ambition. Otherwise why she would drag a 5 month old onto a hot, noisy stage or air her pregnant 17 year old unmarried daughter's personal business in front of the whole country? Palin the politician is at complete odds with Palin the christian mom. There's no ethics or morality or family values here, try as the republicans might to spin it into an issue of compassion (gee- she didn't abort!) and family values (she's pregnant. stuff happens). Just a cynical, use my children to further my career, perversion of the very morality and values she claims to have. More so because she has no intention of extending the same understanding and compassion she's demanding now to others in the same position.

She hasn't in the past- you don't find it hypocritical that the family values party is so willing to change the rules simply when it suits them?

A seminary professor (RTS) once put it this way,
1. In the HOME, God has established men as the head.
2. In the CHURCH, God has established men as the leaders.
3. In the WORSHIP of the church (which is central to all we do, & an example to other areas of life) God has established men as the leaders.
4. While God does not specifically speak to other areas of life, these examples certainly set precedent.
5. At the same time, as with Deborah, while the precedent remains, it does not prohibit a woman's service in leadership especially if called upon because the situation merits it (for example, if men will not step up to serve, etc.)

This being said, given the current political situation and as with any election, Christians must decide who to vote for not just on this one issue but on a variety of issues.

With all these factors combined, while there will certainly come assaults of "inconsistency" no matter what Christians do, the Scripture provides justification for Christians to make correct judgments, as we uphold both the dignity of both men and women, the difference in roles, as well as the fact that the merits of each circumstance must be judged individually.

What is the reality of what it says. Rationalize one way that benefits you and criticize what doesn't benefit you.

If a women was raped, she may want an abortion. If that does benefit your beliefs, then like GOP VP she can't have an abortion.

But if you do not want to bring into this world a being that was not conceived in LOVE, because the sperm was evil, then you should have good doctors to help you abort the baby.

You choose the side you want to rationalize.

CCNL doesn't get it. Nobody gives a rat's behind about his opinions on religion - or politics. If you've seen it once, you've seen it a thousand times.

The poor man had no real plan for retirement, so this blog is it. It's kind of pitiful really.
How about a trip to Greece, or Bulgaria?? Maybe hit Venice on the way back.

All obsessive compulsives need a break from time to time - and the Lord knows, we all need a break from them. Could be that hand-washing thing 200 times a day wasn't so bad, after all?

I agree with Dr. Mohler. The Bible gives very clear instructions about the roles of men and women within the household and within the church. The Bible does not give clear guidance about public service and leadership.

When I read Sally Quinn's articles, I had to laugh. She poses questions about hypocrisy in the church, yet she wants the opinions of women instead of the Bible. This reminds me of Dr. Mohler's illustration about the evangelical Bible study being the most dangerous place for Christians. I agree with Dr. Mohler's sentiment. I do not care what any person thinks the Bible means, but I do care what the words in the Bible mean. In the same way, I may find women's opinions about whether a woman should be the President of the United States or a pastor interesting, but God's word is the only word that matters.

Dale says:
"1. Woman was created for man
2. Woman was deceived by Satan"

Gag me with a spoon. What a troglodyte you are. You and your religion should take a flying leap...

Give me a break.

Believe me, I am no fan of Baptists. You repulse me on every level: your arrogance, your condescension, your ignorance and your unbelievable bigotry and homophobia. Most of all your theology disgusts me.

Believe me, I am no fan of Palin either for many of the same reasons that I am no fan of Baptists.
She is not qualified on any level to lead this nation.

BUT.....you would let her lead the nation however you would not allow her to stand up in front of a congregation and deliver a sermon!!!! She can bring hundreds of millions of peoples' lives to ruin but she can not preside over a Church Council meeting?!!!

You people! You people are outstanding examples of dysfunction and why Christianity is neither to be respected or believed.

having read the comments and reconsidered madam palin's qualifications, i'm convinced that all this is an exercize in semantics anyway.

the only word that occurs to me in considering her nomination is 'preposterous.' that fact i am satisfied will become more and more apparent as this campaign winds down. i simply do not believe that the american electorate is prepared to hand over the leadership of this nation to such a manifestly unqualified individual, regardless of whatever religious delusions she suffers.

come christmas, the only time the palin name will come up will be by republicans attempting to place blame.

Reasonable not hateful:

I am definitely liberal, both in politics (especially social issues), and also belief.

We have had big government now since FDR. Note that Reagan and the current Bush both expanded the federal government. (I think Clinton held it steady, but I may be wrong.) True, our national government does not have a great track record. But downsizing all those responsibilities to the states - would that work? Who knows? It worked with the reform of welfare a decade ago. But I would not bet on that working for everything. I guess my point is that our government is a dynamic, and we must try to work out the kinks in the machinery as we go.

BTW, conservatives love illegal immigrants, because they are cheap labor.

Thank you pastor for your inherently contradictory but nevertheless accurate statement (accurate for the fundamentalist theologians, but not for most of the orthodox Christians who have moved beyond the 19th century) of the Christian view of women. Women cannot lead a bible lesson yet they can lead the United States in the secular society. The inherent absurdities based on your literalistic interpretations of your sacred documents will do nothing to help anyone believe that this woman could run a country, well, maybe South Africa or Zimbabwe, some place small, corrupt and full of converts to the backward and ill-educated brand of Christianity that is spreading throughout that region of the world faster than the AIDS virus.

But the thought of this woman even being in Washington and possibly running what is left of this fading democracy is appalling and frightening, and something I for one would fight tooth and nail to prevent from happening.

Poor pastor.... am I intolerant of your views? Go tell it on the mountain.

A source seeks to obtain inside information about the private life of the politician. This is done through deceptive practices, presenting themselves as interested parties, and using false pretenses to obtai sought after information.

Then the seeking source shares the information obtained to others who share it with the public, the media, the politician’s constituents, family, and heads of state that would have authority over the politician and can take action to terminate them from their position.

Not all those who seek to obtain information about the politician have the intention of damaging their reputation. However, by sharing the information to other sources they allow it to be used for malicious purposes as a means to discredit the politician for personal gain of revenge, jealousy, and hatred based on the politician’s past, present, and future viewpoint taken on certain issues.

Whether the original source is a participant of the plan and practices of the one(s) who seek to use the obtained information about the politician for evil intentions of hurting the politician is irrelevant. What matters is that the original source had little respect for the politician because they “widely” spread the information about the politician having full knowledge that the information, falling in the hands of certain sources would be used carry out malicious intentions.

What ever happen to Americans upholding that which is good and protecting those who take a stand against injustice, unethical, and deceptive practices? Should Americans hold it against a politician because they stood up and spoke out against wrong practices, having the foresight to see that the possible end of that practice could and would have shaken the very foundation of a trusted system for many that could ultimately bring the very demise of that system if the practice was to continue and become known publically?

Sometimes Americans become blind to the truth because of personal interest, tired of waiting for justice to prevail, and giving too much trust and credit to the wrong people.

This, “giving too much trust and credit to the wrong people” will be the demise of Obama along with his practice of deceptive and unethical practices which he still continues to be dishonest about.

Let us halt now and stand for truth and abhor those that make it their life’s practice to deceive, be unethical, use deceptive ways, are revengeful, and are full of hatred.

Because the politician that believes in that which is good and whose intentions were not to harm, but intended to awaken the mislead righteous way of others but having lay hold of certain information acted to protect will surely take another stand against the gossiping, slanderous, deceptive practices of others done behind closed doors and let the judicial system of our country deal with them in a court of law.

For their hatred, revengeful, and deceitful practices was their demise before and can be again. Americans are not void of identifying these practices and know what is going on.

Arminius-

Not sure what we don't agree on.... I suspect that you have some liberal leanings and probably some liberal theological leanings also.

I don't prescribe to the government being the salvation for the people. Big government does not work.

(this is why dems want to have the Illegals here, as they know the poor masses will vote for redistribution of wealth, and welfare programs )

Actually, only Palin's father would be leading the hanging party. Her mother would not have any say in the matter.

I think it's a shame in this day and age to be governed by people who are primarily instructed by the alleged sayings of a mythological figure supposedly living 2000 years ago.

I guess it's better than the Old Testament with its instructions to stone disobedient sons and kill daughters who were raped. Bristol Palin should be glad she did not live in such an era. Her mother and father would be leading the hanging party.

Abortion opponents want to protect the unborn but most of them are forceful advocates of sending adults (soldiers) to go and kill or be killed in Iraq. Why the double standard on the sanctity of life?

Reasonable not hateful:

You and I seldom agree, but we are agreed on one thing: CCNL.

I found nothing "Christian" about Palin's speech. In fact, I found it demeaning and trite. I am tired of truly religious persons being so cheaply bought by politicians on either side, invoking the name of God in attempt to obtain votes. Much the same feeling of using horrific scenes from the twin towers going down and any mention of 9/11 , as Palin did for her son's date of deployment. How convenient. As if it were any less of a sacrifice had it been 6-6! My hope is my fellow human is more savvy than such cheap attempts of religious lures and votes on facts not faces. Diminishing anyone's public service is reproachable. Cutting funding for teen mothers is worse. Shipping Alaska's natural gas to Japan while it's inhabitants pay $5 a gallon for heating fuel is certainly questionable. What would God do? It seems to Mrs. Palin that He'd send her son to kill other mother's sons in a war that began by false pretense . Whether her belief allows her to govern, preach, etc. ..should we be voting for her?

CCNL-

Don't you get tired of the cut and paste routine......

You wouldn't know truth if it hit you in the face.

Better face Christ straight up while you can.

Prof Crossan can't save you.

Christ already did.

Dale, Dale, Dale,

It is obvious you suffer from the 3 B Syndrome i.e. Born, Bred and Brainwashed in "redneck" Christianity.

The truth of it all:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

Current crisis:
Realization that the Jews are not god's not chosen people.
simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. www. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew peasants" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

Perhaps I'm guilty of seeing a Rovian/Gingrichian conspiracy behind every rising Republican star, but it sure looks to me like someone's been grooming Palin for this kind of a job for a long, long time. Here's some questions I hope an intrepid reporter (or debate moderator) asks:

What books did you want banned from the public library when you were the mayor? Why those particular books?

While you were mayor, who did you fire, or try to fire, and why? While you were governor, same question...

Why is there a flag of Israel on the wall of your office?

It has been suggested that you view the war in Iraq as a messianic affair in which the United States should act out the will of the Lord. What exactly did you mean when you spoke of the war as a "task that is from God?"

Your pastor at Wasilla Assembly of God has suggested that critics of George Bush will go to hell, that supporters of John Kerry cannot come into heaven, that Sept. 11 and Iraq are part of a war contending for the Christian faith, and that Jesus is now in a "war mode." Do you agree or disagree with the comments of your pastor?

You moved your family to a nondenominational church in 2002 but continue to worship at an Assembly of God. Why?

Your old pastor claims to have "words of knowledge" from God that, among other things, reveal the marital infidelities of his golf partners. Has he had any "words of knowledge" about John McCain's adultery? Have you ever had "words of knowledge" yourself or spoken in tongues?

Mike Rose, one of your pastors, said this during a sermon about a year ago: "Do you believe we’re in the last days? After listening to Newt Gingrich and the prime minister of Israel and a number of others at our gathering, I became convinced, and I have been convinced for some time. We are living in the last days." Is that what you believe, and how do your religious beliefs impact foreign policy?

Just two weeks ago, you attended a service at which David Brickner, founder of Jews for Jesus, said that terrorist attacks against Israel were God's "judgment of unbelief" on Jews who had not converted to Christianity. Is that what you believe, and how do your religious beliefs impact foreign policy?

Is America a Christian nation? What does that mean to you and the role of a Vice President?

What foreign policy experience have you had with Russia? With Canada?

I think Al Mohler nailed it. He is entirely sensible in his response to Sally Quinn.

Of course "sense" is something that liberals have in very short supply....hence.....Sally Quinn...

What kind of Christian talks about pit bull and lipstick?

It is a tricky question. Given that God has created man to be the head of woman, is it reasonable to have a woman leading every man in the country?

Dr Mohler is correct in that the passage in 1 tim 2 is speaking about authority in the church, but the reasoning is that authority is denied her because:

1. Woman was created for man
2. Woman was deceived by Satan

Are these relevant also to secular leadership? They might well be.

If I have my Christianity right, Sarah Palin does not conform to Christian's norms for most part.
In her agruements against Obama, I could feel the glee of a glutton, rather than the acumen of a statesman.

I wonder if Todd is dreaming about Sarah Palin to bear their sixth when she is in White house? Its so disgusting and gross.

"As we are specifically dealing with what restrictions religions place on women, this can only be argued with the use of the religious texts that justify these restrictions."

The texts by themselves do not justify the restrictions. That assumes that either the texts have intrinsic importance (as opposed to importance assigned to them by humans) or that "Because Yahweh/Allan/Buddha/whoever said so" is a valid theological and sociological argument. The burden of proof is on either assumption. Any religion can make up any restriction on a gender and then write a religious text to justify it.

I was shocked when I heard Sally Quinn say in an interview that she "needed to know" whether Palin would put country first or family first. I wondered how she, as a feminist, could ask that. Has she ever asked those sorts of questions of men running for office?

Although the ideal for most men and women is to spend more time with their families, some are called to sacrifice. Is it wrong for men to agree to serve in the miliary because that duty can be expected to take a great toll on their families? How would past wars have been decided if all God-fearing people refused to follow the call to fight?

Annie Oakley Palin talks about "God's War" in Iraq while equally if not more narrow minded and fanactic Muslims talk about "Allah's War" in Iraq.

This is why we will always have war. Palin is an enabler from the American evangelical side who delight in war instead of the loving words of Christ.

Haven't we had enough of this neochristian bullying the last eight year?

No more years.

Quoted: "you guys make me sick. instead of interpreting the bible literally, how about interpreting the constitution literally for a change? equal rights and separation of church and state, buddy."

Maybe you should think about interpreting the Constitution literally, because if you did you would find that there is no mention of "separation of church and state" anywhere. This phrase was actually coined and came to mean what it does today after a misinterpretation of a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 (Constitution written in 1787). This misinterpretation occurred out of context in a judicial opinion which it didn't even belong in by an activist judge, Hon. Hugo Black, in 1947.

And note, since we are all questioning authorship, realize that Jefferson, who supposedly was for "the wall of separation", was not even in America when the Constitution was written.

The problem with arguing against texts here is that most of us don't even know what we're actually arguing against, which is why the initial question posed (about Palin) was senseless, as were the responses by the likes of Spong and McLaren, who don't believe these texts in the first place.

When you ask if Sarah Palin could choose between family and country, were the former presidents asked this? I recall President Clinton being impeached in my life time. Why ask her? Because she is a woman. Women have run other countries, why not ours? Have we slipped back in time? Do you suppose Goldie Mayer or Margaret Thatcher were asked this questions.
As for being in Washington with a Down Sydrome baby. It is the greatest place for handicapped children. There are so many day care programs to help them. She also has a strong and caring family to rely on.

R. Albert Mohler is a con man like all religious leaders. What a way to make an easy living - interpreting contradictory old, ancient manuscripts to exempt half the population from competition for cushy jobs.

Observer,

When you check Father Ray Brown's book and the other references cited previously, you will find statistically that the references in these books cover all that is known, pro and con contemporily about the validity of the Timothy and Titus epistles as being the real Paul speaking. And you will find agreement that 80-90% of the contemporary (from 1800 to date) NT exegetes conclude that the Timothy and Titus epistles were written by pseudo Pauls.

The topic at hand, however, is whether women can be leaders of both the religions and democracies of the world and here we see the influence of Paul as noted below without the pseudo Pauls being part of the discussion.

Galatians 3:28 ("There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus") is, according to some historic Jesus exegetes, not credible as a historical utterance by either Jesus or Paul. It is the only time Paul considers women as being equivalent to men.

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/013_Two_As_One

And Paul's apparent real utterances about women give credence to this conclusion.

e.g.

"He (Paul) feared the turn-on of women's voices as much as the sight of their hair and skin..... At one point he even suggests that the sight of female hair might distract any angel in church attendance (1 Cor. 11:10). Professor Bruce Chilton in his book, Rabbi Paul, pulls no punches in criticizing one of the founders of Christianity. Basically Paul was a "prude".

Professor Chilton btw is a Professor of Religion at Bard College and a priest at the Free Church of St. John in Barrytown, NY.

And the following:

"In 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 Paul writes: “But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.” He goes on to say that “any woman who prays or prophesies” should keep her head covered, whereas a man should never cover his head, “since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.)”

In 1 Corinthians 14:33-35, Paul gives us the famous injunction, “… women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.” This theme is taken up again in 1 Timothy 2:11-15, where women are instructed to dress modestly and to keep silent in church: “For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.”

Ephesians 5:21-32 is the passage that is read at every Orthodox marriage ceremony, so it’s already quite well known to us. This is the passage in which women are told to be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord, which Paul repeats briefly in his letter to the Colossians (3:18). The husband, Paul explains, “is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.” While women are to be subject to their husbands, so men are to love their wives “as their own bodies.” “This is a great mystery,” Paul says, “and I take it to mean Christ and the church.”

Simply add Paul's (and the pseudo Pauls) thinking about women to the list of flaws in the foundations of Christianity and a major reason why women have been discriminated against for these so many, many years.

Note: Many contemporary NT exegetes to include Father Ray Brown put the author of Ephesians in the category of another pseudo Paul.

Hmmm, do you think maybe that Mohammed/Mahound's scribes simply enhanced Paul's thinking about women when they wrote the koran??? Absolutely!!!!

Why so much anger? This was just a blog on women leaders in church versus women leaders in government. Can't you all have your own opinion without so much hatred!!!? Please, it is so disheartening to read many of these blogs. And I came here to really get some good views on this topic. I'm okay with the fact that people disagree with me. You should try it, it really is physically good for your body to not harbor so much anger.

What kind of family are you talking about?

A family where the only way a husband knows that he is in charge is by impregnating a woman.

To Toni: As we are specifically dealing with what restrictions religions place on women, this can only be argued with the use of the religious texts that justify these restrictions.

Absurd wrote: "you guys make me sick. instead of interpreting the bible literally, how about interpreting the constitution literally for a change? equal rights and separation of church and state, buddy."

And where is the term "separation of church and state" ever used? The 1st Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." This is preventing the state from getting into church business. Its a one way street. It makes no mention of churches staying out of either government or politics. Indeed, without the leadership of pastors the American Revolution may never have started.

The Constitution also prevents the use of a religion test as a qualification for office. This is a limitation on what Congress can impose, but does not limit the people from withholding their votes based on a candidate' religion, or his perceived morality.

Better brush up on your Constitution.

My favorite poster, anonymous said: "It is now the 21st century and we have evolved: "It is now the 21st century and we have evolved"

Defend your statement. In what way have we evolved? Are we better morally? Physically? Mentally?

The only way I am sure that we have advanced is technologically.

We live in a world where life has become cheap. We have traded hunger for obesity. We are full of literate people but how many thinkers do we have that could rival Plato? How many orators could stand against Cicero?

You see evolution. I'd call it devolution.

To Marc, Marc, Marc

Its not God abusing a child. Its God willing to be abused because He loved you. Jesus isn't merely a baby or a man, He is God Himself. God became what you are, in order that you can become like He is.

We are invited to be children of God. But remember, God allowed Jesus to be crucified, and he expects us to do likewise. Thus Jesus told his followers "If anyone wishes to come after me", he said, "he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."

Granted, its a command we have a hard time following, but its there nonetheless.

Marc, Marc, Marc,

Pilate had Jesus crucified. Yes, indeed but only with the permission of God the Father who if you believe that God is omniscient knew his son would be killed but failed to save him. Some god that is!!!!

And for those "atonement theologians" out there:

"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."

"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."

"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

From Professor JD Crossan's book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)

You say in this essay: Where the New Testament speaks, we are bound. Where it does not speak, believers are not bound.

Please now name chapter and verse where the New Testament directly speaks to abortion. Directly, not indirectly. Please also name chapter and verse where the New Testament speaks to genetic, naturally-occuring homosexuality, as we see in many animal species including human. Not unnatural, not turning to unnatural lusts - natural, inborn, as the data are showing again and again. These are not rhetorical requests - I actually want to know.

Thank you,
Sarah PJ

J Brown:
"IF Jesus was a community organizer; he was the worst one ever.
The community murdered him."

Actually it was a sitting governor who had him killed - ironic, no?

Anonymous writes
"Why do a lot people seem so angry?"

Probably the quasi-anonymous nature of the Internet. Also it's possible to read anger into a text where there might not have been any.

"I see a lot of wild statements and comments that don't seem to have anything to do with the anything."

Refute the statements or ignore them. Some statements by my side (left) I don't approve of, but I figure a Rightie will counter it.

"If you have something to say or information that is new, you can say it. But say it in a way that respects everyone."

Might want to email the Palin campaign to do the same thing. She is a rather nasty woman, but that probably stems from the Republicans having nothing to run on, save "being against Washington", the city they have controlled for many years. But of course they can't be honest and say "OK, we admit Bush has been a failure, but we promise we'll be better!"

Palin scares me..she is SHRILL and a liar. She would claim to be a "good" Christian yet does not seem to mind judgeing and lieing. Yet you will be all for her because she is pro life.

What does she know about Foreign Relations or anything else when Bush's experts are grilling her for the debates? She needs all that attention to come up with knowledge that Biden already has? In that case take the girl next door and pump her full of facts and she will do, she is more honest. No experience or judgemant needed...just make the VP, the person that would have the future of our kids in her hand, anyone. No honor neccessary,no knowledge neccessary, no experience neccessary...and while your at it, make fun of those who for almost no money go into the worse places in our nation and try to help others, Community Organizers. Those who try to organize communities to get what they need...job training, better schools, safer streets, to get out the vote. Yep, now why would anyone think that those who do that are worthy of respect and that they lack experience in dealing with people and getting things done? Yep..she is all ready to be the VP of all the Americans...and McCain oks this kind of behavior..shame on the (self proclaimed) Maverick, when what we need is a statesman.

She took a town that had less then 8000 people, that was out of debt, and left it $27,000,000.00 in debt. So how is that little town to take care of that? She also took away 62% of the funds for Special Needs kids in Alaska. Karma must have hit her like a brick though...now she has one of those kids.

What does she know of banking regulation? Houseing? the way Congress works? transportation? Education? the Constitution? From her speech...nothing.

Hillary Clinton was prepared, I was not for her in the primaries, but I would have voted for her. Palin is a tool and a gimick...and along with McCain whose first big decision was to choose her..a vicious shrew wearing lipstick. And I am a woman.

It is not that Palin is a woman, women can lead...it is that she is a mean, hateful and conniving woman.

Why do a lot people seem so angry? I see a lot of wild statements and comments that don't seem to have anything to do with the anything. If you have something to say or information that is new, you can say it. But say it in a way that respects everyone. The truth is your probably don't everything and we can all learn stuff from discussion. I really don't care for comments that demonize Palin or anyone else. Keep in mind she could be the next VP.

IF Jesus was a community organizer; he was the worst one ever.
The community murdered him.

Madeleine writes
"If Sarah Palin can do it all she can do it all. What irks me as a Democrat, is that if the shoe were on the other foot, and the Dem VP candidate was a woman in the same situation as Palin, the entire GOP would rise up en masse and wag their collective finger, upbraiding her for being an unnatural mother who is uncaring of her infant with Downs, and a terrible role model for today's women."

Great point!
We'll see this next week when this comes out. When Edwards had an affair the Republicans thought it an important news item. What about when it's Saint Sarah?

"ST. PAUL, Minn. - The McCain Campaign is denying a supermarket tabloid story alleging that vice presidental candidate Sarah Palin had an extramarital affair, and is threatening legal action against the National Enquirer.

“Its a vicious lie,” John McCain spokesman Steve Schmidt said."
from

http://news.bostonherald.com/track/inside_track/view.bg?articleid=1117069&srvc=home&position=active

"If Sarah Palin can do it all she can do it all. "

Considering she doesn't *know what the job entails,* ...even if she can afford to pass the kid off to nannies, ...it seems her only qualifications are having been somewhat less corrupt than some other Republicans, reading a teleprompter, and mocking dreams for an America *not* run by Religious right ideas of what women 'should' be (As long as they're married to the oil industry and can afford the religious restrictions they seek to impose on all others,) insulting minorities where male conservatives can't get away with it, and not using birth control...

Well, she's hardly a pro-women candidate, either way. Special needs kids aren't a hobby you can do after your '3am phone calls.'

They're a long-term, time-intensive commitment. Especially in terms of the nuclear family model she seeks to impose.

It's not that women *can't* 'do it all,' but I think she's tragically-miscalculated what *motherhood* can entail, as well as not knowing what the Veep job actually does.

If Sarah Palin can do it all she can do it all. What irks me as a Democrat, is that if the shoe were on the other foot, and the Dem VP candidate was a woman in the same situation as Palin, the entire GOP would rise up en masse and wag their collective finger, upbraiding her for being an unnatural mother who is uncaring of her infant with Downs, and a terrible role model for today's women. They would probably go even further and say that her pregnant unwed teen daughter was emotionally neglected and did this as a cry for attention. Not one doubt do I have, at all, that the very same Conservatives who protest we all must be understanding and sensitive about Palin's privacy, would be sneering, pontificating and seething with self rightious anger if the candidate was a Dem. So when Sally Quinn, in her sincerety, having raised a child with Downs herself, gives her opinion you hypocrits come crashing down on her like a ton of brinks. Do you people ever, ever look in the mirror?

A servant (slave) cannot serve two masters. He/She will love one and hate the other.(Matthew)

This is talked about in the Old Testiment and by Jesus in the New. Even as slaves we are supposed to give 100% to our master.

So how I look at this it is not a male/female thing but one where Ms Palin in her own words, 'my family is the most important thing' is trying to serve two masters. Neither will get the 100% God calls for.

For the jobs of VP and President, the needs of the many (country) outweigh the needs of the few (personal/family). The older kids might understand and may not need mom 24x7 but Trig needs all of his family as will her soon to be grand baby.

Maybe if she had made the claim regarding her family of 'so what, the kids will be fine, that is what nannies are for' it might be a bit different.

There can only be one leader of the home/family. One person must lead and the other follow. The leader must treat the spouse with all the love and consideration that Christ gave to his followers.

It's really simple people. Christ organised his community, told his followers to take care of EVERYONE even those who hated Christ, and healed people inside and out. He stood up against injustice and treated everyone equally...women walked, ate, and learned from him.

Palin and her husband Todd joined the US HATING "AKIP" (Alaska First Party) SECESSIONIST PARTY.

Here is an NYT article all about it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/04/us/politics/04party.html?ref=politics

HOW can a sitting Governor address a political party who hates the US?

Meet the REAL Sarah Palin, a secessionist!

Excellent post Al Mohler. It is interesting that feminists are unwilling to acknowledge the hypocrisy which appears in much of the media coverage surrounding Sarah Palin.

Southern Baptists used to ordain women:
On August 9, 1964, at Watts Street Baptist Church, Durham, North Carolina, Addie Davis was the first Southern Baptist woman ordained to the pastoral ministry. Throughout the twentieth century, Southern Baptist women were involved in ministries of all kinds, often unpaid and unnoticed. They did, however, run a major mission entity, the Woman’s Missionary Union, and discovered there was not a great deal of difference in speaking before hundreds of people and preaching before the same people.

In scripture, Phoebe was a deaconess, one of at least several, and Priscilla, among others, was a teacher in the church.

the biblical comment is paul, not god, not jesus, but paul, the same paul who admitted in the same bible that there were things about which he had been mistaken, something these modern day christianists seem incapable of doing. its amazing how persuasive they find these comments to be when they track with their own prejudices. these are the same kind of people who vehemently contend that the world was made in seven days, but that the wine jesus made was really grape juice.

i have long since given up any hope of finding consistency in the theology or philosophy of mountebanks like land and mohler. the bright side? that kind of hypocrisy led me to the light. i'm no longer a baptist.

I don't really think Jesus was really a Community Organizer. I guess people are saying this because Obama is being questioned about his time as a Community Orgainizer. Some might compare the 2 but I don't think it works.

I've never really had anyone talk much about the occupation but he was generally a carpenter, teacher, preacher, and prophet. More specifically He was the Christ or Messiah. He didn't really spend much time in community except when teaching and attending religious events. He actually spent more time as a carpenter than anything. He really only spent significant time with a few disciples. Ultimately, He died on the cross for our sins and rose again. I don't think you would find that on most comminity organizer's resumes.

Definetely not a community organizer.

she is expected to know!! she attended five (5) colleges before graduating.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hjGaAjQoUCE3VQ4N3M852LEdOVtwD9304JE80

JESUS WAS A COMMUNITY ORGANIZER

Thank you for this insightful "clip" on complementarian roles. As parents of four daughers and one son, we are always encouraged by God's Word in how to raise our children. It is differently...in their own respective roles and always with respect and servant heart for all. As a mother of five that stays at home with her family, I am blessed beyond measure. I am so grateful for this opportunity. In staying home, it affords me the great luxury of homeschooling my children, learning alongside them and enjoying the gifts that God has placed in our home. Thank you for your blog...it is encouraging.

fr Peter:

>I think she is ready to lead, and in some ways even more ready then McCain. ...

The thought of a potential book-banner, anti-gay person who ignored doctor's ordes to NOT fly so close to delivery in the White House is frightening. This is a person who threatened to FIRE a town librarian (who is obviously MUCH more intelligent than the "town mayor") because they refused to censor books.

little sarah is most suited for the job of dog catcher. Maybe. She's certainly NOT suited for VP, esp when she asked those who interviewed her: "What does a VP do?"

-- aka

the SIX-EC{LATARiAN} "Ri.S.E.P.M.G” entity’s , which are embedded in O.U.R. Nature via awareness of them, until end of genuine ‘TiME’ (aka via HOLY-‘TEMPERATURE’, not clock nor space time thinking, imagining).

R=eligion
(A MAN-LESS or Womanless, Biblelss Institutions, beliefs etc.. via the real Church (UNiVERSE with an embedded innate SUPERNATuRAL, not man-made superstupidstious un-natural) & Real Constitution ( as CLAUSES therefrom as the LAWS of “IT“s Nature.

Note: O.U.R. G-d is Neither a he/him/his nor a sahe/her never a bio-finite incarnate. Never was, nor can WO-MEN ever be a god form! Face this TRUTH (opposite if MYTH) or be in D & D’rs living purgatory, aka “Doer’s & then DENYER’s” a Devilish/Satanic/Jinn/Kali likestate of mind! ) +

i.ntellectual/intellegent/individual/Self
(an EC{LATi{-on} enjoying Gridarian-Democracy & TRANS{finite} Civilization +

S.ociety
(collectively as GeNE POOL(s) or "SPERMiTY's" (Each unique US EC{LAT}{i}{ON’s}Via ‘Survival of Fittest Mechanism, that Ye beat-out ye own Dadys-COLD-Sperms count & thus pulled- by Moms Milk & HOT-Honey so to Spaketh Suculantly DUE-TO “TiME“ (Temperature: Balancing Absolute HOT & Absolute COLD!) =

(E)conomics
(Every thing in Human terms, as long as HUE{mates} still roam this Planet, of Many) +

P.olitical Institution(s)
(Democratic, Liberal, Socialist, Republican, Monarchis, Theocratic) +

M.ilitary Institution(s)
(Industrial-Complex via It’s Peoples Equity) =

G.overnmen Institution(s)!
(I.e., U.S.A’s RISE-PMG?. Or Russias, or Iraqs, Israels etc..)

Note: R.i.S.-E-P.M.G. also’th Proves that , on One End (Far Left-Side @ “R“) , THAT

The "R.eligio" , man-made , Tax-Exempt , Institutios side of this Equation, must Be SEPERATE from the “G“ component , of Government, that does-NOT Necessarily disturb the "E.conomic" component of RISE-PMG. AND soo,

This doubly Proves that on The Far Right-Side or Hand of this 'EC{LAT}{i}{ON}] "RiSePmG-Equation" that SECULAR GOVERNMENT via "MODERN MORALiTY" is SUPERiOR To (Any) BibLical Morality or Tautology!

---

Soo , in FACT, Under "JO{KTAN}ian" (aka EkCLATAR{ianity} HOL{i} NO-MON" Knowledge or awareness, THAT,

SCiENCE = Vibrational + Flash + Bang + NEBULA = "O.U.R. TRANS{FiNiTY}" aka YE REALITY on a Holy immortal Non Stoppable Hol{i} Cosmic Move/mission/Job/Purpose. AND

R.eligion = i.S.(E).P.M. +G!

"IT" (EKCLAHT) always Justly Starts with Ye & Thus "IT" (Almighty) always will Justly endeth With YE, HOPFULLY For Another Good ESCHATOLOGiCAL POSSIBILiTIES (REe-Created of HEURISTIC/a/o Placementor Placements) of O.U.R. selves, in The DUE-TO-BE Machine via the "Non-Gravity Place!"

A Holy Holy Holy Miraculous Experience like once before!

---

Here are YE Holy Cosmic “TETRA-NEEDS“ on Space-Ship EARTH! Followed by the “THE TEN FiATS” Of The “NEW-SONG” ( plus 3 alternates) for a better World to LOVE & liVE in!

Note: If YE are Minus ANY one of Thses TERTA-NEEDS below, then Houston Ye Have a Problem!

^ .^. ^
FOOD
http://{J}
http://.{O}
http://...{Z}
http://......{E}
http://.........{V}
http://............{Z} @Us
HOME
http://................{J}
http://..................{O}
http://......................{Z}
http://.........................{E}
http://...........................{V}
http://..............................{Z} @Us
L♥VE
http://.................................{J}
http://....................................{O}
http://.......................................{Z}
http://..........................................{E}
http://.............................................{V}
http://................................................{Z} @Us
CLOTH
http://.....................................................{J}
http://.......................................................{O}
http://..........................................................{Z}
http://.............................................................{E}
http://................................................................{V}
http://...................................................................{Z} dot
us

1:F♣♣D To keep from disappearing;
2:H♦ME Abode to sleep/enjoy/protect;
3:L♥VE, someone to or have companion;
4:CL♠TH, something to wear!

IMPORTANT: Rich, Middle-class or Poor, Besides Keeping Busy that, If YE hath All these “4-Tetra-Needs“ then Ye hath No Worry’s , in the World, on this Blesseth Holy Cosmic Miraculous, & zero biblical Sin, Holy Cosmic NEBULAS-built S.paceS.hip Planet EARTH, aka S.S. GAiA, S.S. GEOiD, S.S. TELLUSng something!

--- Below are the 10 + 3, alternate, FiATS Of THE "NEW-SONG"

BEHOLD, The "10 Fiats" of the NEW SONG & the "2 Alternatives".

Please; Magnify Them & make them Honorable & Uphold Them!
-

1) "Let there be NO Worship of JEALOUSY as a G-D.!"

2) "Let there be NO Abuse of LOVE to forgive UNCORRECTED-SIN(s)!"

3) "Let there be NO Hassling over a NAME for G-d!"

4) "Let there be NO Denial of FREEDOM OF EKCLATi-ON-ity or
APOCALYPTARiANiTY as RELIGION et al!"

5) "Let there be NO Dishonoring of HONORABLE Parents!"

6) "Let there be NO Unjustifiable HOMICIDE or HURTING!"

7) "Let there be NO Sex with Non-CONSENTERS or BEASTS!"

8) "Let there be NO Theft from NON-THIEVES or NON-USERERS!"

9) "Let there be NO False WITNESSING or Un-JUST Judging!"

10) "Let there be NO Envy of {HU} {MATES} or Folks keeping these FIATS of O.U.R.
NEW-SONG!"
-
11) “Let there be NO Denial of TETRA-NEEDS (Food, Shelter, LOVE & Clothes) to
Any 'Hum {Ate} {Kind}!”

12) "Let there be NO Procrastination nor LAZYNESS!"

13) “Let there Be NO Denial To Self Nor Others in contemplation of REALITY, aka Ye Holy TRANS {FiNiTY}!”

BEHOLD YO! "The RELiGiON of Everything, is now prophetically, cometh before the SCiENCE of Everything ,

All this MiRACLE , never a Sin, as Promised Us-All via "O.U.R." Prophet & Father of the HO-Co-Fe-Fa SYSTEM, via hir Albert Einstein [pbuh et al], whom gaveth Us the "QUANTUM-ENTANGLEMENT" & "RELATiViTY" story: And

Behold, [Dr.] Harry W. Theriault, OUR Bard & Prophet, aka the Bishop Of Tellus & many more Names, as Promised , for O.U.R. MEMETiCs, as Inheritence, or

For Us 'HUE{MATEs}, Not HUMANs anymore, via All the Earths currently known "iNFiXUS-BOOKS", that like from Catterpillar to Butterfly, hath Propheticaly & TRULY (opposite of MYTH) becometh the "O.ne U.niversal R.eligio BOOK OF 'TRANS{FiNiTY'} ['REALiTY' in the "OUR-BOT"} innate SYSTEM. Zero man Made!

Remember: We are Students Forever of the Creator of our holy Cosmic Nebual-Built "FiAT-LUX! Soo

Sing HALLALUYA! Praise the Hol{i}-No-Wo-Men! An "IT" (Apocalyptic G-D, not Pre-Apocalyptic god) being "iTSELF.

, a Hol{i} Hol{i} Experience (Almighty/EKCLAT{i) in and of Us-ALL. aka SOURCE-ONE (Eponymous EKCLAT" + "i" = LiFE/Photon awareness)!

---
- From Jacob

(O.rdained R.evelationship M.inister {ORM} & Revelator, of the "HOLY-COSMIC-FEELER(s) FAITH" {Ho-Co-Fe-Fa} , [A Belief like Religion, but Better] and CRUXOLOGIST & BIOMENTALIST of the "O.ne U.niversal R.eligion Book of TRANS{FINITY}" (Reality). aka "OUR-BOT."

---
Paid For: By the JOCKTAN-Eberu-Race ON Holy Cosmic NEBULA-Built Ma/Pa Earth! Not via PELEG Eberu Race Story’s anymore. Nice knowing YE!

A woman who thinks shooting bears and wolves from an airplane (or anywhere else), who is willing to exploit Down's syndrome, motherhood, childbirth out of wedlock, the Iraq war, off-shore oil drilling, "intelligent design," and the lunatic fringe of reactionaries in this country, and who confesses that she knows little about economics or foreign policy, is possibly not the best candidate for high office in the America of the 21st century.

Concerned,

Sorry, I didn't enter my name in my first comment addressed to you.

I appreciate that you provided one of Raymond's quotes which include those statistics. I would like to know his sampling method and the list of scholars surveyed. It's easy to present statistics from a biased sample to prove a point (I should know, I have a degree in statistics!)

At any rate, I, too, can quote New Testament scholars, only they argue FOR Pauline authorship of the pastoral epistles.

John MacArthur: “Ignoring the testimony of the letters themselves and that of the early church (which is as strong for the Pastoral Epistles as for any of Paul’s epistles, except Romans and 1 Corinthians), these critics maintain that a devout follower of Paul wrote the Pastoral Epistles in the second century….The idea of a ‘pious forger’ wrote the Pastoral Epistles faces several further difficulties: (1) The early church did not approve of such practices and surely would have exposed this as a ruse, if there had actually been one (cf. 2 Thess. 2:1, 2; 3:17). (2) Why forge three letters that include similar material and no deviant doctrine? (3) If a counterfeit, why not invent an itinerary for Paul that would have harmonized with Acts? (4) Would a later, devoted follower of Paul have put the words of 1:13, 15 into his master’s mouth? (5) Why would he include warnings against deceivers (2 Tim 3:13, Titus 1:10), if he himself were one?”

The Apologetics Study Bible (with contributions from 110+ contemporary biblical scholars and theologians): “No serious challenge to Paul’s authorship arose until the nineteenth century. Critics of Paul’s authorship based their rejection on several arguments:

1. The vocabulary, grammar, and style of the Pastorals differ from letters that are almost unanimously viewed as being from Paul.
2. Church organization reflected in the Pastorals looks more like structures seen in a later era.
3. The letters counter Gnostic teachings, which did not arise until after A.D. 100.

There are sound responses to each of the critics’ objections.

1. The role of a personal secretary (possibly Luke), the incorporation of earlier material, the letters’ personal nature, and the unique subject matter account for linguistic differences.
2. The early church’s adoption of the leadership structure of the synagogue accounts for the relatively advanced organization of the church early in history (Acts 6:1-6; 11:30). Besides, the leadership structure is not as developed in the Pastorals as in the writings of the apostolic fathers at the close of the first century.
3. Paul countered a basically Jewish heresy (1 Tim 1:7, Titus 1:10,14; 3:9) containing some features of asceticism, or self-denial (1 Tim 4:3), with traces of Greek philosophical influence (2 Tim 2:18).

No feature of the teaching Paul combated precludes dating the letters during Paul’s lifetime. Recent scholarship is increasingly favorable toward the authenticity of these letters.”

I labor to include these lengthy quotes to show that there are plenty of theologians and biblical scholars who argue for Pauline authorship. Whether a majority of scholars argue for Pauline authorship or against it, I do not know. But, I do know that an honest examination of both sides of the argument is worth our time.

Thanks for the discussion!

907 "I dont understand why it is democrats believe it wrong for a mother of young children to be vice president when they have no objection to a father of young children being president"

I think you make a valid point. Being a parent is not a conflict with being a President or Vice President. My own objections to Palin's candidacy has to do with her policies and the way she has handled her responsibilities as Mayor and Governor. When it comes to her personal life, she seems like a phoney to me, but mostly I argue against her public policies and actions.

Here are Dr. Laura's words, and she's certainly no Democrat or leftie
"I’m stunned - couldn’t the Republican Party find one competent female with adult children to run for Vice President with McCain? I realize his advisors probably didn’t want a “mature” woman, as the Democrats keep harping on his age. But really, what kind of role model is a woman whose fifth child was recently born with a serious issue, Down Syndrome, and then goes back to the job of Governor within days of the birth?

I am haunted by the family pictures of the Palins during political photo-ops, showing the eldest daughter, now pregnant with her own child, cuddling the family’s newborn. When Mom and Dad both work full-time (no matter how many folks get involved with the children), it becomes a somewhat chaotic situation. Certainly, if a child becomes ill and is rushed to the hospital, and you’re on the hotline with both Israel and Iran as nuclear tempers are flaring, where’s your attention going to be? Where should your attention be? Well, once you put your hand on the Bible and make that oath, your attention has to be with the government of the United States of America."

Mr. Mohler,
can you please make your point without quoting the New Testament ? The majority of persons in this planet just don't believe in it. Why ? About
-for a starter- some of the reasons mentioned in some books by Robert McNair Price (Deconstructing Jesus, or The incridible shrinking Son of Man ) ?

The Bible is a book that has been proved true over and over again for the last 2000 years. Hundreds of prophesies have been fullfilled the morality it teaches has created the greatest societies on Earth. When you under the whole Bible in its context, it is God's truth to us. You don't have to believe it or follow it but the evidence is there. Personally I trust it for these reasons and try to follow it to the best of my abilities. I don't always understand everyting but any book inpired by God is good by me.

Giving its reliabity, the question is what to think about what it says about the roles of men and women. In I Timothy there are very explicit instructions about who should hold the office of Paster, teacher, elder, and deacon. It is very clear from these passages that the instructions were that men should hold these positions. Some argue that these passages are more about the social conditions of the time but I have never seen a sufficient argument for this. I personally believe these instructions still hold today and churches should do their best to adhere to them.

I am also unaware of any part of the Bible that instructs that women should not lead in government. This is very important to note that these are very different offices. I do think that there is reason to try to apply the church principles to government but this is not a mandate. But given the circumstances, I like Palin as VP.

If I saw a man that I thought could do the job as good, I would probably vote for the male. This is because I think men have an innate leadership quality that God has given to men. I think women can also have this but it comes less naturally and could cause conflict in the home. I honestly think this is a wake up call to men in politics to stop selling out and start practicing what we preach. It is not as if God couldn't put all women in power to show it it how it's done right.
Given all this I think Palin would make an excellent choice as VP and maybe even president some day.

Just trying to be reasonable as I can with my knowledge of scripture.

It is still hypocrisy, regardless of your rationalizations.

Anon, Anon, Anon Wherever You Are,

Apparently you failed to check Father Raymond's epic NT reference book.

Excerpts: The First Letter to Timothy

p. 654, 80-90% of the critical scholars believe the letter was written by a pseudo Paul toward the end of the first century, early second century.

"Authenticity - Probably written by a disciple of Paul or a sympathetic commentator on the Pauline heritage several decades after the apostle's death.

p. 639 ditto for Titus

See also Professor JD Crossan's conclusions in his book (with Professor Jonathan Reed), In Search of Paul, about Timothy and Titus. (Same conclusions as Father Brown). Professor Crossan is an On Faith panelist.

See also Professor Bruce Chilton's book, Rabbi Paul.

And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_to_Timothy#The_challenge_to_Pauline_authorship

you guys make me sick. instead of interpreting the bible literally, how about interpreting the constitution literally for a change? equal rights and separation of church and state, buddy.

Chuck said: "Al Mohler writes, "The Bible states that women are not to hold the office of teaching authority in the church, and sets forth a portrait of different but complementary roles for men and women in the home and in the church." Dr. Mohler would be more precise to say, "My interpretation of the Bible states..." because that is what it is."

Would you mind sharing your interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:12: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man"?

Thanks!

We could presume from Ms. Palin's belittling quotes about community organizers that she does not encourage her children to get involved in their communities or to respect community leaders. What kind of mother is that?

Also, as so many other bloggers are noting: Jesus Christ was a community organizer.

Al Mohler writes, "The Bible states that women are not to hold the office of teaching authority in the church, and sets forth a portrait of different but complementary roles for men and women in the home and in the church." Dr. Mohler would be more precise to say, "My interpretation of the Bible states..." because that is what it is. Mohler's argument fails from lack of a factual, intellectual, or theological basis. It is more of the same tired legalistic tripe repackaged in "conservative Christian" clothing. Not nearly all Christians, much less all evangelical Christians, agree with Mohler and company.

Concerned,

You said, "The epistle of Timothy and Titus were, according to most NT exegetes, not written by "prude", the "inspired" one, Paul but by pseudo Pauls who wrote as per the peasant attitudes of first century Palestine. It is now the 21st century and we have evolved!!!!!"

I would humbly like to challenge your assertion that "most NT exegetes" assert that the epistles of Titus were written by a pseudo-Paul. Although I have heard that argument before, there are also many NT scholars (as well as the early church) who argue that the Apostle Paul did write those letters, thus their inclusion into the canon of Scripture. Please be careful with making blanket assertions.

Any church or nation that tries to limits the Holy Spirit working in people gets into trouble. Two excellent biblical scholars from the evangelical Gordon Conwell Seminary, Richard and Catherine Kroeger, have done a fine online Bible study on women serving as leaders in the Church, check it out at http://www.pcusa.org/womensministries/history-theology/women-elders.pdf

Grace and Peace,
Bruce Gillette

Bruce & Carolyn Winfrey Gillette, Co-Pastors
Limestone Presbyterian Church in Wilmington, DE

I have a talking dog who says that she knows what God divines. Frankly, my dog is more credible than a talking snake.

You are correct it isn't hypocritical, it is misogynistic. Dress up your dislike for women any way you choose Albert, you don't like them having power in your church. What are you afraid of poodle? It is hardly interesting that you can spin your nonsense to appease your own mind, but don't believe for a minute that anyone is going to buy that crap you are trying to sell us. Of course your faithful buy it, but then you wouldn't be getting paid if they didn't buy it right?

I dont understand why it is democrats believe it wrong for a mother of young children to be vice president when they have no objection to a father of young children being president. The Palin and Obama children have had their parents thrust them into the limelight. Their respective parents will clearly have less time for these children, but families all over the world adjust to the challenges placed before them. Single parents with two jobs manage to raise upright productive children everyday.

While I would share concerns about a parent juggling competing priorities invovling their children, it is the parents who are best equipped to evaluate the competing needs of family and work. Who are we to second guess those who know their own circumstances and abilities?

Angela writes
"So Tell Me: What are Obama's qualifications? I'd like to hear...! "

You should learn how to use a search engine.
A quick web search gets the following -

During his eight years in the Illinois state Senate, Obama worked with both Democrats and Republicans to help working families get ahead by creating programs like the state Earned Income Tax Credit, which in three years provided over $100 million in tax cuts to families across the state. Obama also pushed through an expansion of early childhood education, and after a number of inmates on death row were found innocent, Senator Obama enlisted the support of law enforcement officials to draft legislation requiring the videotaping of interrogations and confessions in all capital cases. In the US Senate he was instrumental in drafting and passing major ethics reform and has been acitive in many other bills.

How can a woman who along with her husband were members of an ANTI US political party?

From 1995 - 2002 Todd Palin was a mamber of Alaska Independence Party "AKIP", and Sarah Palin joined him at their meetings. AKIP states on their website that they are for secession from the US and for the development of resources for Alaskans alone.

I'm all for freedom of speech - but I am AGAINST ANYONE who was or is or will video tape a welcoming address to a US HATING POLITICAL PARTY(Gov Palin's welcoming address to AKIP was in 2008!)

I also find the rank hypocrisy of Palin'sparty blasting Obama over his church, when Palin's church speaks in tounges, is apocolyptic, and her pastor says you'll go to hell if you criticize him or the president...

I do have a BIG problem with Palin's practice of reaching out from her official government offices to have private citizens fired... Like the Librarian who refused to ban books! Palin doesn't agree with the First Amendment of our Constitution!

WACK-JOB ANTI-US POLITICIANS DON'T BELONG IN THE PRESIDENCY!

Why do church leaders continue to deal with men and women according to the flesh? Romans 8:4 tells us "that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." The Bible tells us in Romans 8:12-14: " Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" -- does this mean that women are excluded from the plan of God because the scripture specifically states "sons of God" and not people of God? Of course not. Is this scripture only talking about flesh in the context of sin, no because God's Word is completely true and can't be parsed to fit our purposes. God's Word is wholly true or wholly untrue. Jesus came to establish a new kingdom and in His kingdom there is no male or female, Jew or Gentile, bond or free but we are all one in Christ as was posted previously. Verse 29 goes on to say: "and if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." However, Verse 26 says, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." The only contradiction rests in how man has translated the original text into gender specific words and this is unfortunate. Such translation has been made a doctrine in the church and this is also unfortunate. If the Church wants to reach the next generation we had better take another look at this. Young people have witnessed women and mothers bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan without a man there. I know my daughter is not going for a man telling her what her role is in the church or outside of the church and other young women are not as well.

U people are such idiots. The question is not whether a woman can handle work and family - lets not make this a general debate. This is the VP choice, with a President who is 72 years old putting a neophyte who has no foreign policy experience is leaving the country to be run by karl rove kind of people. Haven't you people learned anything from the past eight years?

I can't judge if Ms Palin, as a mother should be Vice President let alone the possibility of being President. Maybe she has what it takes to do both. I am not a feminist but I have for most of my adult married life and as a mother worked outside of the home. I think that some women pull it off better than others.

For the past twelve years I had no choice but to work because my husband suffered a major stroke and could not remain in the workforce. During that time I raised a child suffering from Bipolar disorder and my 17 year old daughter had a child out of wedlock. Believe you me that was not an easy life but I had no choice but to do what was best for my family. What was best for my family was to remain in the workforce and better my career. There were days when coworkers could see tears in my eyes because life was so hard. But I did it and to the best of my ability.

Would I choose a career outside of the home. No! Before my husband's stroke we had a goal that he would improve his employment so I would stay at home and be with our children. That goal of course never came to fruition. I miss at least the chance to try it.

My worklife though was easy compared to what a Vice President's worklife would be. I am an auditor. I work flexible hours and have weekends off. Now that my kid's are grown I love what I do and could retire but I'm not.

Maybe Ms Palin as Vice President can juggle the three main priorities that would be in her life if elected; Vice President, wife and mother. She does have a husband who does not appear to be disabled. But the question is should she she juggle those priorities?

Mr Romney in his speech at the convention stated that children should have both a Mom and a Dad. Where does the line divide? When is it that children no longer have enough of a Mom in the home to make it beneficial? Can a mother who is a Vice President, forbid the thought that she would become President, provide the quality time needed for their children? I can't realistically judge that but Sarah Palin can and should! She should weigh the effects of that choice she has made. That includes long term effects.

It is obvious to me that Ms Palin's choice to step into that position will challenge her ability to always put her family and her nation first at the same time. She at times will have to make a choice.

Because of my flexible hours I was able to put my family first-job second. However, as a voter as a member of the Country Ms Palin will be serving, I don't want my nation to be second in priority -ever. If she were my Mom I wouldn't want to ever be second in priority.

Ms Palin has a choice we all have choices to make in our lives. But there are consequences to every choice we make. Some of the consequences to the choices we make can't be predetermined and sometimes the consequences to those choices don't show their face until years later. When it comes to family - years later is too late and the same is true for a country.

The bottom line is that some women have the luxury of making the best choice. I didn't have that choice but always tried to make the best of my circumstances.

Ms Palin has already made her choice and it is between her, her family, and especially the God she worships as to what her consequences are for that choice.

As a voter I have a choice. This one I can make. I don't think that Ms Palin is making the best choice for her family or this nation and I will not vote for her.

R. Albert Mohler Jr. says

"Our confession of faith does not speak to the appropriateness of women serving in political office. It does speak to the priority of motherhood and responsibilities in the home, but it does not specify any public role that is closed to women. The reason for this is simple -- the New Testament does not speak to this question in any direct sense."

I say that applied to this specific situation this statement sounds like and indeed is the "situational ethics" that the holier than thou religious right seduced by and in cahouts with the ideological fascist right who highjacked the Republican Party, accused anyone, who was not one of them, of over and over again.

What century do you think this is that sexism is not only acceptable, but mandated if a made up spiritual entity says so in a 2000 year old book?

I've heard many baseless calls of sexism throughout every aspect of both parties and their political campaigns... but this is the first time i've actually witnessed it so clearly. What you advocate is by definition sexism, "I believe that God has placed in the hearts of most women a deep desire for the fulfillment of marriage and the raising of children as life priority." Just by saying invoking god's name before saying something offensive does not make it any more legitimate.

Also, please try not to use "common sense" as evidence of outlandish religious dogmatism and biblical literalism. Just don't.

So Tell Me: What are Obama's qualifications? I'd like to hear...!

I do NOT want anyone NEAR the White House who has threatened to fire the town librarian because they refused to censor books. palin probably wants to only have "Dick, Jane, and Sally visit the farm" in the library, and get rid of REAL books. She is also anti-gay, and wants to REVOKE domestic partnership laws already on the books.

She has NO qualifications whatsoever for being VP, especially after asking the vetting team "what does a VP do?"

Palin, has as the whole world could see,has a family of built in babysitters right down to the youngest eight year old. And really, she brought her infant 5 month old to an hours long political convention with a noise level I probably couldn't handle instead of choosing a quiter more approprite environment for that infant to be in, while, she did her show...so, it looks like the kids are used to Mom being center stage while they adoringly wait in the wings for her...

Seriously, Palin could very well serve both family and Nation if she where at all qualified in the job.....which she is not but a more qualified woman candidate very well could.

It is clear that Palin cannot because in reality she is a "gimmick" pick not a qualified pick. Now, if you put Hillary Clinton in the same situation she could do it....because she would actually be qualified....

point is a woman qualified for the actual job can do both....with lots of help just as a man would have to do if he were in the same situation.

To me it is a question of priorities and timing
for Sarah Palin. I do not believe she has the qualifications to step in as President of the
United States of America. Her family's needs
at this particular time in her life, in my opinion, should be paramount.
I realize that all over this country women
are making choices between the need to work and to also be there for their families.
Ms.Palin will have many opportunities to
serve her country but only one chance in the lives
of her children to really "be there" for them
without the awesome responsibilites of the
Vice Presidency.
Yes, I grew up in the 50's and am coming
from the June Cleaver school of mothering.

Thanks for the article Dr. Mohler. I wrote a comment response to Sally Quinn that was similar - though much shorter and not nearly as well written. So thank you for adding your voice to the issue and speaking so clearly.

As a life-long Southern Baptist, I find that Dr. Mohler and others are sidestepping this issue for political reasons. Since the Southern Baptist Convention started purging itself of its moderate element, we have had preachers who did not allow either their wives or wives of other ministerial staff to work outside the home. One got around this edict by allowing his wife to conduct a business from their home. I always found this to be curious since most of the office staff was composed of females who were working outside the home. The fundamentalists by and large believe that the man is the "breadearner" and the wife is the "housekeeper."

When religion and politics merge in a non-theocracy, interesting things happen. We are reaping the harvest of that convergence today. Bush II, an avowed evalgelical Christian, has shown us that even the religious right is way too eager to have one of their own in the White House regardless of the disastrous results of doing so. Of course, many religious right leaders still praise Bush and his policies. I find his policies totally opposite to the Golden Rule and other teachings of Jesus.

I'll remain a Southern Baptist in hopes that my denomination will return to the moral high ground and find Jesus again one day. As one might say, "They preach Jesus, but do they really know Him."

The epistle of Timothy and Titus were, according to most NT exegetes, not written by "prude", the "inspired" one, Paul but by pseudo Pauls who wrote as per the peasant attitudes of first century Palestine. It is now the 21st century and we have evolved!!!!!

See Father Raymond Brown's reference book (878 pages), An Introduction to the New Testament. Said book was approved by the Roman Catholic Church.

If one is going to argue that everyone should live their personal lives a certain way, one has to present an argument that does not depend on beliefs about the supernatural or about the factual accuracy of scripture. There is no evidence that scriptural teachings came from supernatural beings - the beings may very well exist but the teachings may be drastically in error. For the teachings to have any validity, they would have to stand on their own.

It may be ironic that a Muslim (Pamela Taylor on this site) has the best rebuttal to Mohler: "As long as women are excluded from any position, then it will be possible to justify excluding them from every position."

Freddy writes
"If all Christians were to think with their Biblically taught minds first and not their skin color (that is called racism) would there be a single Christian vote for the socialist baby killer Obama"

Its a fact that the Judeo/Christian God looks upon lying as being just as evil and wrong as murder. Freddy, Obama is not a socialist nor is he a baby killer. You, Freddy, are a liar.
See ya in Hell :-)

Nohler writes
"Feminists are bewildered and frustrated by the fact that the vast majority of women find their greatest joy and fulfillment in the roles of wife and mother"

Nohler shows as much understanding or women and feminsts as the President shows understanding of foreign policy. Mohler writes about his joy at Palin's "pro-life" credentials. Of course the Republicans have had near 40 years to do something to stem the tide of what they call "a holocaust" - and the Republicans have done next to nothing. Mohler doesn't give a crap about "the unborn" - he's just another Republican hack saying anything to keep his power. The Republicans have been promising a whole range of social issues to the Religious Right for decades - bringing mandatory prayer back to schools, banning gay marriage, ending abortion - and none of these things have come about, because of Republican inaction. Mohler is as phoney as Palin is.

If all Christians were to think with their Biblically taught minds first and not their skin color (that is called racism) would there be a single Christian vote for the socialist baby killer Obama?

Galatians 3:28 ("There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus") is, according to some historic Jesus exegetes, not credible as a historical utterance by either Jesus or Paul.

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/013_Two_As_One

And Paul's utterances about women give credence to this conclusion.

e.g.

"He (Paul) feared the turn-on of women's voices as much as the sight of their hair and skin..... At one point he even suggests that the sight of female hair might distract any angel in church attendance (1 Cor. 11:10).

And the following:

"In 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 Paul writes: “But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.” He goes on to say that “any woman who prays or prophesies” should keep her head covered, whereas a man should never cover his head, “since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.)”

In 1 Corinthians 14:33-35, Paul gives us the famous injunction, “… women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.” This theme is taken up again in 1 Timothy 2:11-15, where women are instructed to dress modestly and to keep silent in church: “For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.”

Ephesians 5:21-32 is the passage that is read at every Orthodox marriage ceremony, so it’s already quite well known to us. This is the passage in which women are told to be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord, which Paul repeats briefly in his letter to the Colossians (3:18). The husband, Paul explains, “is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.” While women are to be subject to their husbands, so men are to love their wives “as their own bodies.” “This is a great mystery,” Paul says, “and I take it to mean Christ and the church.”

Simply add "prudish" Paul's thinking about women to the list of flaws in the foundations of Christianity to include those of the Southern Baptist Church.

I have a question for everyone: In light of the fact that Palin is pro-life (and clearly does not practice abstinence within her marriage) what if she were to become pregnant again?

--
Hello {World} either Vote for Legislate from the Jesus's-Pulpit or the Seculars-Bench?
--
Before "i" Begin & 'drop a Bomb' on the McCain's of Worms,

And also Something ON them Many Many FREUDiANT Slips of Genuine Prophecy's from yesterday RNC:

ASk Citizen McCain: How Many People did ye Napalm John??? Do ye want to see Pictures of your Victim(s) Mr. Wannabe Prez, Citizen McCain?? Well

Here is your Aero-Plane & your child Victims Live: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev2dEqrN4i0

S C H A M E! S C H A M E! S C H A M E! S C U M M! There is nothing to Boast nor Proud about!!

Fact: HiSTORY is O.U.R. JURY & EVERYBODY's Biz!" John McCAiN is a looser!

ViETNAM was & is a LOOSiNG WAr! WE Lost It U.S.! Do not be in denial to selves or others America!
Question: Where is BiN LADEN & His Lamps, Mr. Citizen CAiN/BUSH Evangelicals??

-- AMAZiNG () No Grace!

Hello CONSCientious Objector(s), aka PEACE LOVERS, not WAR MONGERS!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objector

Wow: "i", as a Diplomatic Historian lover, am aware, most are not , that "To Tell a BiG Lie" , during a campaign , and HOPE? That “The-[naïve]-People” will buy/bite it, is one sneakarooish Weapon that them "Thomas's Promise’s" candidates (Satans dressed in Secular Garb & work undercover in a Secular Government as Employees) like self Aggrandizing McCain's , et al, want ye to Believe! [Remember G.W. Bush’s “WMD” in Iraq, as pretext to invoke an Executive Order , as if right to a ARMAGEDDON loving finatic as a Biblical [fulfilling such dangerous illusion] Prophecy War in IRAQ, the “EDEN” Cradle of Abrahamic, Daughter/Sister Eve of her Father/Brother ADAM place stories???

Note: As a victim ( whom Germany's Catholic HiTLER & Georgian (Russia’s Enemy now) Catholic STALiN Mass murdered "i" Kin) AND , as a Young Lad , attending MiLiTARY HiGH SCHOOL ("i" was a Cub & Boy Scout too) , That

"i" hath suddenly Became a Passionate CONSCiENTiOUS OBJECTOR meself. And Yes, "i" attended thee WOOD STOCK. Yes, "i" still step on cockroaches when need too, So does that make me UN-Amereican?, a Communist, Anti-American, Anti-Jezues , anti-Establishment, anti-Feds, ant-LiFE or Nature etc..???

Ps: Besides cunning SARA Palin sounding "ANTi-U.S. SUPREME COURT..., that madam Cindy McCain, last night Sounded very "LIBERTARiAN" when saying , "Let's Keep the Federal Government out of Ye Lives" [similar slipped]. What a FLOOZY!

Fact: important note: Cindy McCains Family Owe a Alcohol & Beverage Spirits (not godly stuff) Business. They Hath Many HiGHWAy DEATHS on Their Hands. And Most are Teenagers or Young Adults! They are EViL Pushers whom sell to the 'Others' but do not consume such themselves!

---

interesting observation: According to the 2 most important Judeo-JU's, At last nights RNC , "i" noticed & observed the Presence "Henry Kissinger" (The Israeli Arch Evangelical loving Armageddon Lobbyist, who should've retired, but is a Republican Ventriloquists.

Note: He also sat next to Bush @ the Beijing Olympics) and the 'Turn-Coat" Wannabe political addicted & desperate brown nose JO "LiEBERMAN" (the Israeli Arch Lobbyist & also Evilgelical Armageddon Lover og John HAGEE et al) ; is Proof, that "the JEWiSH LOBBY", not ZiONiST LoBBY, controls All those, Rabbi Jesus Loving U.S. Governors , whom spoke evilly at the RNC.

Ps: They , Sour Sour Americans(?) want to Provoke & Spin a WAR with Sweet Sweet RUSSia! Note: These so called "Judeo-JU's, forgot that Russia Saved 'MOST' of Them who are living Today. And so, ISRAEL should Pay RUSSia Back Every Penny that that Russia, not America, invested to House them, Educate them, Feed Them, Employ Them (Socialism or Not).

And it was Judeo-Catholic POLANDers who Ratted-out & turned-in them Judeo-Ju's!. Fact: They did that to "i" grand Parents!
---

Last night (at the RNC) and after the End of McCain's Speech, that on Chanel PBS-13, someone left the Microphone open & ye can hear someone, on Stage, invoking , that 'imported' JUDEO-JU made into a Judeo-Christ, Rabbi "JEZEUS"s Name to help Win the McCain & Palin Ticket!?? Wow! What Dangerous PRE-APOCALYPTARiAN's (Anti-SECULARist) Nationals indeed!

HENCE: WAKE-UP!!!!
This ‘Race’ (ambiguous) is not about Democrat (MOTHER‘s turn to take over the HOUSE) or like a Republican (FATHER’s turn to take over the HOUSE) or like a Libertarian (Uncle/Aunt) turn to be at the Chief Executive HELM etc.., but this whole Evil Race is about

THEM: [Pre-Apocaltptic] EViLGELiCAl, aka EVANGELiCALS, aka JEALOUSiCALS, Rabbi Jesus Yashua ARMAGEDDON LOVERS {War Mongers} and about

Us: [Apocalyptarian Thinkers & Feelers, not justly Shakers/Movers] , in U.S of A, not Their {Church’s] New-Americ!! They are EC{LAT}I-OFFs, and WE ‘THEE PEOPLE’ are EC{LAT}i-ON(s)! [aware, not illusion’d delusion’d anymore).

Note: Besides Wanabe Tom Ridge, an Evangelical Jesus-us Lover stoo, that unfortunately The U.S. HOME-LAND-SECURiTY Dept. is Run by them Evangelicals. And anyone 'outside' of their 'Tax-Exempt' Organization (as if be a genuine institution) will be Targeted via George Nixon/Reagan/BUSH(s) EXECUTiVE ORDER #12333.

Trivia: Did YE knowth that It was ’Tricky Dick’ R.M. Nixon (a Quackeroo) who invited & brought the-CHURCH into the-STATE System(s) & followed by Senile/ already alheimizer diseased Reagan & his Bush Sr. tenures, and like Father Like Son , of Florida’s Gov Geb & G.W. Bushy‘s. Note: Bush‘s stole the Presidency! And Now the Evangelicals [includes Moronic MORMONs] are voting for Citizen McCain. Their ‘FRiEND“ (Not our Friend! J; “i“ do not think Poppa Son Johnny nor Momm a Son Sara know what Friend really means! ???

Please see: http://www .michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/index.php?id=12003 an unamerican Pretext to spy on non Evangelical-Nationals.

iMPORTANT: The SOUTH's secret-Mascot is Revi & god Player (Imported icon & not our G-D or fella) Mr. Rabbi JEZEUS Yashua Christo is in fact Anti-Family & Anti-Humanity & Anti-Nature & Anti-Business & a Jealous-person (zero god), is a Evil person:

If Ye not Beliveth "i" then Pleasea America, see Any-Imported Bible @ LUKE:14:26 & @ LUKE:12:51 et seq. And also that imported (not Made in America) most Evil Story ever Told; the "DRUNKiN [Racist] Noah Story, et seq. Note: Suddenly an import is being Exported & re-Bottled as id U.S.A. Made! SCHAME Pre-Apocalyptic thinking Evangelical-NATiONalis!

And For This Reason, the EVANGELiCAl (mostly Southerners & red necks) WHITE GANG {whom Own, by Satans Tricks, Usuray & theivery, like the Nepotistic BUSH's , 75% of all the Wealth here & many stakes & prongs abroad via U.S. Tax Payers Dollar Addiction } are Jealous of the NORTHERNERS. (the Real Mixed & Assimilated Americans/Inheritors, not Southern/Red-Neck middle class & higher TRASH!! Note: We EC{LAT{ARiAN} Gridarian-Democratic & Libert{ARiAN}s , Love ’Trailer-Park” folk .

Please knowth that ARMAGEDDON Lover & Religio Jealous Psychotic & Situational-Lyer" ,Satans Puppet, and wannbe cunning Prez, John McCAiN, is a PANAMANian-Citizen, not born in America!

JOHN McCAiN is un-American! Why? Because my 'FRiEND' Citizen McCain became a Prisoner, while on a MASS MURDEREiNG Bombing Run instruction from his own Father [hence why his dad was a misserable AlcoHolic {too many night mares to escape} , but not biblioholic like his john Jr today], knowingly & heartlessly happily went to mass kill CIViLiANS too via his Own Choice.

Note an Important Freudian Slip as FACT: Citizen McCain a Worms, "SiTUATiONALY LiED" about 2-two things:

1) That "I Drew a 'Four-Way-Totem-Pole' , aka CROSS, on the Sand" story, is a illusional & Dillusional exagerated as his Biblio Psychotic Storys. Note: John knoweth that Dead-Men do not talketh And

2) That "I was Tortured & SOLiTARY CONFiNEment false Story , is another one of His (their) ventriloquised Storys!

Ps: "i" hath Document, from ex-Vietcong 'Correction-Officers' , who interfaced with Citizen McCain, whom saith that under the GENEVA CONVENTiON, on handling War Prisoners, was honored to the 'T'! that 'No Table, No... is a Crock of 1/2 Truths! aka Tantamount to a Outright LIE! Wow! It's worse that when HiLLAry CLiNTON exaggerated that 'Sniper Story'!

ASk Citizen McCain: How Many People did ye Napalm John??? Do ye want to see Pictures of your Victim(s) Mr. Wannabe Prez, Citizen McCain?? Well ????

S C H A M E! S C H A M E! S C H A M E! S C U M M!

There is nothing to Boast nor to be Proud about, Mr. citizen , of Panamanian, McCain & followers to HELLLLLL, if there is such a purgatory state!

Note: Atleast 'Barry' OBAMA was born in Awaii!

---

Trivia: Did Ye Knowth That ALASKA is on [stolen?] "RUSSiAN-Land"?

Pleazzze Evangelical AMERiCA, ye must Sell Back ,Alaska, to Russia for Violation of the "CZARiST NICHOLAS DOCTRiNE", aka the "GORBACHEV DOCTRiNE" for Violating the Terms of the 'ALASKA PURCHASE" of 1867.

iMagine Violating Americas own so called "MONROE DOCTRiNE!?? Note: Russia Demands to Buy-Back, as Stipulated , in the event U.S. reneges , that Mother/Father Russia (pre- or post;bolhivik or not) must pay 1000 times the Original Price that Queen Katherin the Great set-out! Wow, The America “I” once Knew is Broken! No Thanks McCain! No Thanks Bush(s) and similarly situated.

Please see wiko linko here: http://en .wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_purchase

iNCAMERA(secret),

And Did Ye Knowth, that Governor "SARA" (Biblicaly speaking, is Abraham's Sister & wife as the character who is in fact a PROSTiTUTE, hence mother of Harlots) PALiN's Great Grand Parents , via IDAHO & the Plains, hath "Mass Murdered" [HOLOCAUSTED] AMERiCAn NATiVE Indians in the early & mid 1800's? Interesting: 'SARA" Palins two(2) 'WiKEPEDiA" sites [135kb & 276kb] Does Not Mention her PARENTS nor Grand Parents Mass Murdering Anscestory!??????? And

Did Ye Knowth, Today Genuine , NATiVE, KLONDiKEers, aka ALASKANS abORiGiNALs(not Europeans, not Afrikans etc..) are quietly treated as 2nd rate Citizens (limited in 'White-Man's" Evilgelical Government)!??? Ever See how 'Fat' & alcoholically troubled they (abORiGiNY's) are, as a Group?? They (Native Americans Arizonians etc..) are biggest customers for John McCain & Cindy’s Brewery's!

Note again: John McCains Wife Cindy is a forgetful Floozy. aka idiot savants!

Amazing () No Grace!

---

PROPHECY: It is Not 2nd woman as VP Sara PALiN(s) time to be a vPrez! Nor is it destiny for wannabe General John McCains time to be Prez! Not even Next Time in 2013+. Instead:

VOTE HiLLARY CLiNTON for Prez & Col. Besovitch for Vprez 2012!

Note: When Brethren OBAMA & BiDEN's become Prez's, that the EXPERiENCED Ex Prez Clintons, ex Vp Gores, Ex prez Carters , Darling kennedy's etcc., will guide them. So Fear not America, Ye are still in Good Hands!

Note: Big Mouth , ex Prosecutor & Word Merchant Psych, accident Mayor Rudolph Giuliani [an anti-EC{LATARiAN}], himself did not have any-EXPERiENCE when he naively took office.So Who did He (Rudy tooty fruity boy & his punching judy girl) Rely On on governing? Yes, Ex Mayors, Ex Governers Politico's Honcho's etc..! Wow! White Calling Kettle Black!??

Ps: “I” lost my Business on the 84th Floor , Twin Tower-1 facing NoRTh on 911. So Ye see me Braggin or Complaining or Capitalizing???. Talking about APATHETiCs! Wow!

Wow, Like Citizen McCain, Citizen Giuliani is attempting to Capitalize on WAR, that They Provoked (Republican MAFiOS'os of America & their Partners in Crime, the U.S. Evilgelical CHURCH Leaders; Hello; Worse than COMMUNiSTS!, repeat WORSE Than C O M M U N I S T S!).

Question: is there something , in the ANALYSES, above , aka FREUDiAN SLiPS of Genuine Prophecies", that Ye hath not Understanded!???

Amazing () No GRACE!

HALLALUYA!

Praise the HO[i}-NO-MEN, Lord, G-d, EKLAH + “i” = LiFE/Photons Awareness , as being born-in-MiRACLE!, never as if life is being Born in their [Evangelical Nations] BiBLiCAL (man Made) SiN/Curseth Story(s)!

Not via, O.U.R. , aka O.ne U.niversal R.eligio, innate, but TRUE (opposite of MYTH-ilogy) story s! Never can Ye Evangelicals, aka PRE-APOCALYPTARiAn Nationals, via O.U.R. Cosmic-Bible can compete with OUR ” NEW-SONG“ (coming from All YE Old Song Storys MEMETiCals ) APOCALYPTARiANiTY awareness !

---

Paid For by the "EC{LAT}ARiAN" NATiONALiS on Space-Ship Earth & Jointly adjoined with the "JO{KTAN}-iOn-PARTY (not PELEG), U.S.A. for GRiDARiAN-DEMOCRACY & TRANSFiNiTE CiViLiZATiON, HEALiNG OF NATiON(s), GLOBAL-PEACE & more 2013+.

Hi Fate,

You asked, "But why cannot a woman have a high calling to ministry? You mention prohibitions in the bible, and I am aware of many in the old testament but I am not aware of any on the new teatament. And doesn't the new testament represent the new covanant? If things stated in the old testament no longer apply due to the new covanent, like animal sacrifices which the old testament requires, why should old testament prohibitions of women in ministry apply?"

Here are a couple of New Testament passages that I believe Dr. Mohler was referring to which require men to serve in pastoral roles:

1 Timothy 3:1-3: "The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, ..."

Titus 1:5-6: "This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you - if anyone is above reporach, the husband of one wife, ..."

Hope this helps!

Mr. Mohler, I found your article at best confusing. You mention that abilities of women like Thatcher and that your wife could run GM if she wanted to. You also mentioned that some women choose not to, which everyone understands, and that some women have a calling to such high level jobs, as Thatcher did but your wife apparantly does not.

But why cannot a woman have a high calling to ministry? You mention prohibitions in the bible, and I am aware of many in the old testament but I am not aware of any on the new teatament. And doesn't the new testament represent the new covanant? If things stated in the old testament no longer apply due to the new covanent, like animal sacrifices which the old testament requires, why should old testament prohibitions of women in ministry apply?

One of Christ's devoted disciples was a woman. If that doesn't say that women can and should minister, should they get the calling, I'm not sure what does. But in my mind, if a woman can become a saint she should be able to minister. And, can you explain why Mother Teresa should not have been allowed to become a pastor if she so chose. Pointing to the bible and saying that it says NO is just not good enough when the evidence is quite clear that woman can lead a church as well as men, and God made this ability so.

The most meaningful analysis I have seen yet on Palin. Somehow great political analysis these days always appear on Comedy Central.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184086&title=sarah-palin-gender-card

Palin is the clearest indicator yet of where the GOP would take this country. Into third world status. A society in which 1% are wealthy beyond measure and the remaining 99% are characterized illiteracy, poverty, mental retardation, teenage pregnancy, and arranged (shotgun) marriages. Palin is a barbarian.

I think that Sarah Palin is neglecting her children by running for vice-president. She has a baby that desperately needs her. A father is important, however that baby lived inside of her and needs to bond with her. Going back to work three days after the birth is nothing to brag about. This is one of the reasons that there are so many dysfunctional children in this world. Her examples are detrimental to the morals of this country as a leader. Why would they bring her daughter's boyfriend to the convention and who paid for his trip? This sends a message to the youth that it's ok to have a child out of wedlock as long as the father shows up. This is putting sin on display.

Scripture is silent? How about the example of Deborah in Judges 4 who "was leading Israel at that time" (v. 4, NIV). A small, amusing coincidence is that Deborah had to lead the army too because the commander was cowardly. The commander's name? Barak. I'm not kidding (nor am I suggesting we call this any more than a coincidence).

LOL!

'Biblical Truth'

What an oxymoron.

And what exactly is the difference between Baptist rules, and Sharaic law? Oh yes, no scarves, and no stoning, but the women are still not truly equal (just be glad they don't have to walk 10 feet behind their man). What woman would subject themselves to that kind of 'logic' I have no idea.

the question is what/which family?????

and which God? of the christians, conservatives, jews, baptists....etc.

think: her type of family and her type of religion.

The only things men can do that women cannot are produce sperm and empty their bladders standing up. And in a pinch, a woman can manage the latter.
The only things women can do that men cannot are get pregnant, give birth, and lactate.
None of those abilities are necessary in order to effectively lead a church or a country.

There is no logical reason to refuse to ordain women.
"Because Paul said so" is NOT a logical reason, by the way.

Mr. Mohler,

This is a well thought out post and is in perfect harmony with what we evangelical, born again Christians believe. However, Sally Quinn will never get it. I'm not sure why she's a panelist for OnFaith. There are so many women who work and are wives and mothers and are bible believing Christians and understand this completely. Biblical truth is not in conflict with the fact that there are many women who are Christians who hold senior positions in all walks of business and are able to take care of their job, and their families without compromising their biblical, moral and business beliefs. It's so hypocritical that Sally Quinn would present this one-side, biased viewpoint and never really wanted an answer as they never do: they want to hold us up to make fun of us. It's very sad...There's a fundamental issue here....Are we as a nation so prideful, arrogant and mean, that those who feel that we are beneath them in intelligence and in reason that they feel it's their duty to devour their fellow Americans to ensure that they get what they want no matter the cost. I call it biting and devouring.

Thank you...

I think she is ready to lead, and in some ways even more ready then McCain. My problem is with all these unanswered swirling questions>?? It seems more leaks out about Sarah Palin every day., There was the DUI, which is funny because It seems Like Every Male In The GOP., Has a Dui. Bush has one, Cheney has two., Now There is This about Palin LOL., You can see All of the Dui Records For Them at http://www.DuiHelpGuide.com I dont care what the McCain camp says. They could not of vetted her as long as they say they did. Then there is this trooper gate thing? Whats going on there? http://www.hotpres.com I like her, I just want to know a little more about her.