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Albert Mohler plays the role of urbane baptist commentator on these pages, the kind of guy whit whom we, the liberal godless homosexual, could have a serere discussion. A sort of theological David Brooks. All the same, Mohler is an intolerant fundamentalist. His admiring comments on a despicable character and a shame for America like Falwell was proves the point. Saying that Falwell was a great man because he had sense of humor and loved his family is the same as extolling the modesty and humbleness of Hitler because he was vegetarian and loved children.

m470k

Some people should look in the mirror before cursing Falwell...

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Bob:
The book of Hebrews writes of the great saints of the Old Testament, "he being dead yet speaketh". This will prove to also be true of Dr. Jerry Falwell. While I do not always agree with all of his theology and style,his leagcy will be seen in the graduates of Liberty University and the great vision God gave him for that place. Many men and women are serving the Lord around the world because they heard the greatness of the Gospel through the lips of this servant and came to give their lives to Jesus Christ. America is a better place because of his determination and vision to help change our culture and that too will be remembered in history. It is my prayer that God will raise up many more men of such Christian determination and vision. May our Lord open the blind eyes of those that cannot yet see the greatness of men like this. I thank God for the courage of my friend Al Mohler for writing this piece in this place and for this time. Bob

That should read "function."

Has anyone studied A&P 101 and understood the funcion and purpose of the rectum?

Let us know what you find out.

Thx

"...are we not right in saying you are a Samaritan and have a demon?..."

The Pharisees to Jesus.

Brian, are seriously going to thwarted by that word?

Come on. It was infantile and I called you on it. Lord, knows you have called me on worse. Here. Let me apologise for the use of that word.

What you did was intellectually dishonest and I am very disappointed in you. Please refrain from superficial gain-saying in the future. It is not productive or mature.

You have my utmost repsect, Brian. I did not treat you like a fragile child but like a mature adult. Continue to deserve my respect by acting like one.

sw

SW,

"Infantile?" Forgive me for being overly sensitive, but I have made every effort in our conversations to be as courteous and humble to you as possible. I do so because too often homosexuals are treated with contempt and scorn, and I never want to do so in my interaction and conversation with them. I can never expect to win them to Christ if I don't show Christian love. I do have friends that are gay, and they know that I disagree with them. Yet, I remain their friend nonetheless. That being said, I would never accuse you of being "infantile," which is tantamout to calling you childish and unable to sustain adult conversation. If some of my comments have offended you, then I sincerely apologize. Nevertheless, I would like to receive the same courtesy from you.

It may take me a day or two to respond to your latest post, but I promise that I will respond as soon as I have ample opportunity.

Brian

SW, please know that I truly want to answer honestly and frankly, while trying to show you respect, courtesy, and friendship. You are a very intelligent guy, and I do want to respect your time and mine, so I will not reply without a well reasoned and cogent answer. God bless.

Brian,

You are not seriously claiming that Moses wrote in Numbers that "He" [Moses] "was take up by G-d and seen no more."

Are you?

Come on, Brian, you're smarter than that.

sw

Dear Brain,

Re: your post May 22, 2007 5:44 PM.

It is not congruent to equate the word "homosexuality" coined in 1869 by Karl-Maria Kertbeny with the contemporary technical nomenclature, "post-exilic". This is an infantile evasion. The word is used for histroical and literary analysis, and is not a herneneutic term or a biblical reference. Homosexuality was first coined as a medical term not a biblical term. It was later co-oped by clergy and misused hermeneutically.

I submit to you that the way in which this word was coined and is used today is not representative of the way it is used in Leviticus. R.C. Sproul is unknown to me. From what book did he author this statement and when was it copyrighted? No accredited scholar today would support that Leviticus predates the Babylonian Exile. This is coming from my experience of reading John Shelby Spong, Peter Gomes, Marcus Borg, Paul Tillich, Dietrich Bonheoffer, Phillip Gulley, James Mulholland, Daniel Rosenberg, Phillip Spivey, Peter Mehl, Jay McDaniel, John Farthing, Clayton Crockett and Diane Bowman. The dates proposed are between 560-520 BCE. This is supported by the literary analysis of content and style of Deuteronomy. Leviticus is a Triplet of Deuteronomy after its being a couplet of sections of Exodus. Just read the style and content of Exodus first and Deuteronomy 2nd and Leviticus 3rd and it becomes obvious.

Leviticus was a contractual arrangement between the post-exilic Judaic peoples reassembled from the first Diaspora and G-d. A new remaking of a covenant that attempted to ensure that G-d's chosen people were not conquered and subjugated again.

Didn't work out BTW. The practices of men lying with men had two aspects then. Militarily, a vanquished foe was fair game for humiliation of the loser by the victor, and the other, derived from civil customs superficially representing more diverse sexuality by non-Judaic societies of an abusive form. The chosen people were to be ceremonially set aside so as to be positively distinguished from the non-chosen people. The derivation of the word "sodomy" is HIGHLY suspect. The use of the word "sodomite" in the later Judaic historical, prophetic and tutorial materials does not refer to men lying with men but to an unspecified SERIES of offenses including but not limited to inhospitality, abusiveness, brutal rape and "wickedness" of the residents of Sodom. It is pure late 18th early 19th century willfully incorrect conflation to assume "sodomite" is interchangeable and congruent with "homosexual".

This is not academically supported at all.

More importantly, none of this speaks to honest romantic love. Do you know any gay men? This is not about sex. This about physiogenic attraction and romantic love. Look, this is hard, OK? I know it is. I don't get a homophobic vibe from you. What I sense is an honest grappling with the Word and the fact of gay persons' existence. You are looking for an incontrovertible allowance that just doesn't exist yet remains most important to honestly grapple with.

The conflation of Paul's corpus is not really well presented in your post. I recommend reading Calvin Roetzel's "Paul: The Man and the Myth". Pauline scholarship is well advanced. Victor Furnish had done good work -- very good work -- but Roetzel's work is a standard that supersedes Furnish's. Let's be clear. It's very hard to do this in a post on-line. Roetzel's timelines are much more complicated and accurate so I defer to him. But let me give you a Cliff Note's version.

Chronologically the authenticated Pauline Epistles are: I Thessalonians, Galatians, 1st Corinthians [which is really a compilation of the 2nd letter and the 5th, the 1st is lost to us and only alluded to from other sources], Philippians, Philemon, II Corinthians [which is a compilation of the 3rd & 4th letters] and Romans. You cannot competently critique my I Corinthians citation with an Ephesians citation for the following reasons.

II Thessalonians, Colossians, Ephesians and Hebrews were never written by Saul of Tarsus/The Apostle Paul. They are later mid-Synoptic Gospel creations post-Paul's death by surviving disciples of Paul to attempt Post-Hoc Revisionism of the problematic authentic Pauline corpus.

I & II Timothy and Titus were even later compositions that were fraudulently misattributed to Paul whose authorship is unknown.

Keep this in mind when you quote Pauline sources that are contradictory.

Now we're just going round and round, Brian. It's not a good use of my time or yours. Read what I wrote Thomas.

You are also right. It is very hard to be a Christian. It is very hard to live an honestly Christian life. It is not for the faint of heart nor the rose-tinted-glasses-Pollyanna types either.

You used another infantile evasion. Yes, the words are not literally Jesus'. They are deeply Judaic and literarily evocative of his life and ministry. They are not literally true they are really true -- metaphorically and illustratively. This is not a semantic game. It is deeply epistemologic, philosophic, metaphysic, theologic and mythologic. I employed the quotations to tell an important story. You used a logical fallacy to evade my thesis. This isn't a game.

Deal with the thesis, Brian. I mean no disrespect either but don't waste my time or yours.

You have not addressed the conflict between Matthew and Luke. It goes to the heart of your inerrancy claim. Here's more grist for the mill.

Matthew has King Herod die around Jesus' 2-3 birthday which is the literary device that allows for He and the holy family to return from exile in Egypt to Galilee. Luke has King Herod live through all of Jesus' life to his Crucifixion whereupon Pontius Pilate and King Herod taunt Jesus -- no pediatric time of death death for Herod.

I think you would have to agree that a literal inerrant reading of the Gospels would demand that there is only ONE resurrection. Either Matthew is right and Luke is wrong or Luke is right and Matthew is wrong or there are TWO resurrection stories in the Gospels not one.

Before you trot out the 2 Herods evasion -- it's been historically disproved, categorically.

sw

Dear SW,

I hope this post finds you well and rested from your weekend. Due to the sensitive nature of our previous dialogues, I regret not being able respond more promptly to your latest post to me. As I alluded to you earlier in my last post, my father and I took a small vacation this past weekend to North Central Alabama to go caving, and I am just now able to give my attention fully to our conversation. Again, I need to reiterate to you that I in no manner intend to harm or insult you in my frank responses. In fact, I want to make every effort to gain your trust as we discuss these delicate issues.

Re: Your post dated May 17, 2007 at 11:24 a.m.

You are correct in your following statement: “the word ‘homosexuality’ with all of its charged connotations did not exist until the early 19th century.” Indeed, the first person to coin the term was Karl-Maria Kertbeny in 1869 in a short treatise regarding anti-sodomy law in Prussia. The concept was later given popular currency by Richard Freiherr von Krafft-Ebing in his 1886 book Psychopathia Sexualis. In my opinion, however, the glaring mistake in your logic, i.e. homosexuality is somehow different in the 20th century as opposed to its connotation in the “post-exilic” (your word) era, is one of mere semantics and etymology. The word “homosexuality” was coined to refer to the act of two persons of the same gender (homo + sex) engaging in sexual activity. Even though this word was indeed birthed in the 19th century, it does not logically follow that it therefore cannot be used to refer to sexual activity between to persons of the same sex prior to the 19th century. If this is the case, however, you therefore cannot use the word “post-exilic” to refer to the period after the Babylonian exile, since the word “post-exilic” did not exist in the cultural vernacular of that era. The English language is replete with instances in which words are created to refer to past events or actions. Since the word “homosexuality” is simply the term we use to refer to sex between two persons of the same gender, it, therefore, does not negate the fact that such activity was prohibited in the Mosaic Law, an insuperable fact pertinent to our conversation, and one which you have failed to disprove.

You also quoted the gospel of Matthew: "Remove the beam from thine own eye before attempting to smite the mote from your neighbor's." How true are these words for the church today!! I am convinced that more Christians, including myself, need to realize this Biblical command and apply it to our daily lives. However, if I lie to you, or steal something from you, or insult your family, or embezzle money from you, may I quote this verse to you and suffer no consequences? May I also quote another verse that you used to justify your lifestyle: “Judge no one for ANY reason” (your words)? May I quote this verse to you if I commit arson on your property, or if I defame your character, or if I assault you in the streets? Of course one may retort that those sins cannot be comparable to mine since the former involve harming someone else and mine do not. True, yet even if they do not harm another person, they indeed scorn the glory and holiness of the Living God, and if He is impugned then sin has occurred, and guilt is accrued. One cannot simply isolate this text to the exclusion of other Scriptures which teach that Christians are indeed to judge the works of men. For example, the apostle Paul exhorts the Ephesians in Ephesians 5:11 to “have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.” How does one expose the unfruitful works of darkness without first judging them to be truly unfruitful and contrary to the law of God? If we are indeed to “judge no one for ANY reason,” then we certainly could not fulfill God’s commands through the apostle Paul to “expose” the unfruitful works of darkness, since one would have to judge the person’s actions to be either right of wrong in the sight of God. Therefore, Matthew 7:1-5 cannot and should not be used to justify any and all sin.

Furthermore, you have incriminated yourself by quoting these words of Christ because of your later statements that “Jesus did not say any of the red-letter words in the Gospels. There is no basis in fact for this claim.” (quoted from your post on May 17 at 8:21 p.m.) If you posit that Jesus did not say any of the red letter words in the New Testament, how can you then use the red letter words “judge no one for ANY reason” to support any of your claims? When I quoted the words of Christ, you responded that “there were no cameras, tape recorders, video cameras, pens, paper, typewriters, teletype, TV, radio, newspapers or any of these modern recordation technologies present at that time” to record the actual words of Christ. How then can you be sure, by your own argument, that Christ even said, “judge no one for ANY reason?” And if you are not sure that He did say these words, then you certainly cannot use them to justify your lifestyle decisions.

Also, the dating of Leviticus to the postexilic era (c. the sixth century B.C.) is erroneous for a number of reasons. To quote R.C. Sproul, “the content of Leviticus does not fit such a late period: The worship of the second temple differed significantly from that enjoined in Leviticus, and Leviticus is presupposed or quoted by earlier books such as Deuteronomy, Amos, and most obviously Ezekiel. The book reflects the ideals of worship and holiness that were accepted in Israel from the time of Moses to the fall of Jerusalem in 587/586 B.C. References to the Pentateuch by such terms as “the Book of Moses” (Neh. 13:1; 2 Chr. 25:4), “the Book of the Law of Moses” (Neh. 8:1), “the Law of the Lord” (1 Chr. 16:40; Ezra 7:10), and “the Book of the Law of God” (Neh. 8:18) are largely restricted to writings following the Babylonian exile of the Jews in the sixth century B.C. The New Testament uses similar designations for the Pentateuch (Matt. 12:5; Mark 12:26; Luke 16:16; John 7:19; Gal. 3:10). These various headings underscore the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch and its binding authority. Besides these titles indicating Moses’ authorship, Jesus said, “Moses . . .wrote about Me” (John 5:46), and He explained to His disciples on the road to Emmaus what the Scriptures said about Him “beginning at Moses” (Luke 24:27). The Pentateuch itself tells of Moses’ decisive contribution to it: he wrote the great legal code, the Book of the Covenant (Ex. 24: 3-7), and the exposition of the law recorded in Deuteronomy (Deut. 31: 24-26). Though the date of the book’s actual composition remains somewhat uncertain, it doubtless was written prior to Moses’ death (c. 1406 B.C.)

Well, more to follow regarding the Sabbath and your shift to epistemology.

God bless,

Brian

Chris,

Please listen carefully. The material from NARTH is abusive and incorrect. It is derived from the reporting of medical conditions of terminal late-stage full-blown AIDS cases only -- in the mid-80's to the early-90's. It is 100% sampled from only terminally ill patients who are mostly self-avowed gay men BUT significantly is inclusive of a minority report of straight men. Today's reporting is far more accurate and competently compiled and notice only of your citations is from 1998 the rest are from 1971-1992. The material is out of date and woefully incorrect.

It is not representative of ALL gay men nor accurately reflects the totality of health of gay men. 10-20% of gay men have HIV. Only 5-10% of gay men develop full-blown AIDS. The very same incidence of STD's in the total population of human beings is the incidence of STD's for gay men. The rising incidence of HIV in the heterosexual black population outstrips new incidence of HIV infection in the entire gay population and the white population is not far behind. Hepatitis is a more serious threat to gay men than STD's, HIV included. Smart men -- regardless of being gay or straight -- are clean, healthy, scrupulously hygienic, check their STD status regularly, take treatments immediately and do not abuse anyone else with their illnesses and carelessness.
If you are truly interested then read "The Ins and Outs of Gay Sex" by Stephen E. Goldstone, MD, c1999. It’s filled with competent MEDICAL information.

Deal with real facts not propaganda. Stop being so hysterical -- really you're worse than the "Lost in Space" Robot: "DANGER, DANGER, DANGER!!! EMERGENCY, Will Robinson!"

That robot was sooooooooo gaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy!

sw

Dear Thomas Paul Moses Baum,

Re: your post May 21, 2007 6:44 PM.

I'm sorry Brian isn't posting anymore but maybe he will again because your post beautifully illustrates what I have perhaps badly attmepted to say to him.

It doesn't really matter if I approach the bible in Post-Modern Deconstructivist/Restorative-Reformationist manner or if you and he approach it in a pre-analytic traditionalist manner. Where we come together is when we take its message seriously and honestly with a high degree of integrity and attempt to live it with passion and humility.

What you, I and hopefully he can agree on is that no human no matter how much one wishes to the contrary is G-d and can speak for G-d, nor read G-d's mind. It is this arrogance that is so offensive to me and which you spoke so passionately against.

While you and I may never come together theologically -- and that's entirely possible -- we can come together in humility before G-d and share the Golden Rule to love each other as we love G-d.

In the final analysis where one goes after death is never as important as what one does in life to the least of G-d's children, for whatever one has done to the least of these one has done also unto Jesus.

Thank you for your post. You inspired and edified me.

sw

Dr. Mohler,

You said it yourself:

"From these humble beginnings grew the Falwell empire in Lynchburg." … "He mobilized a movement of conservative Christians in America and built a massive empire."

Nail on the head. Of course Jesus Christ called us each to build our own personal "empire" on earth. Mission accomplished, Jerry.

Thanks for your writing and other work, Dr. Mohler. May God give you, and others of the faith who have a platform, grace and strength to continue to contend for the faith. soli Deo gloria

Isn't it rather amazing that so many people try to use the bible to show how they are going to the "good place" and basically everybody else that disagrees with them aren't. God has a Plan and has had this Plan before He created anything, so that all of His children will be in the Kingdom which is not to be confused with heaven because that is going to pass away too. So many people that call themselves christians turn into the biggest stone throwers there is. Calling yourself a christian does not mean that you are one. There is a little story that Jesus told about the two people in the temple praying to God and one of them said Thank You God that I am so good and follow all your commandments and Thank You that I am not like that sinner over there and the sinner over there said Lord have mercy on me a sinner. The holier than thou went away justified in his own eyes while the person that was honest with himself and God went away justified in God's eyes. Think about it. God's Plan is for all of humanity, He has won the keys to hell and death and he will use them in His time, God has sent no one to hell, you send yourself there by your unforgiveness and judging others. Also you have to build it before you go there. Judge not lest you be judged, forgive an infinite number of times. On the cross Jesus said "Father forgive them" there are no astericks after them. God is Love not the hate-filled, egotistical piece of gargabe that you would think that He is by listening to what a lot of people that call themselves christians would have you believe. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

If you want TRUTH and SCIENCE, go back and read The Medical Consequences of Homosexuality in one of the previous posts.

It has a lot to say about the Anatomy and Physiology of homosexuality and how the rectum is not compatible with such behavior.

Thx

Thanks, Born Again.

Those Bible verses are as empty and meaningless now as they were the first time I read them, lo these many years ago - but it's good to be reminded of just how empty and childish Christianity is.

Lots of science books out there to read. You should try one!

BTW - I respect your right to believe what you will, but said respect doesn't extend to my having to aver that what you believe has a shred of truth to it.

I Corinthians 6:

"9": Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

"10": Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

"11": And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

"12": All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

"13": Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

"14": And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

"15": Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

"16": What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

"17": But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

"18": Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.

"19": What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

"20": For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Many of you had severe problems with Dr. Falwell's message, so may we quote directly from The Word:

Romans 1:
16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17: For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23: And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29: Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30: Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31: Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Romans 2:
1: Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2: But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3: And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5: But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9: Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10: But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11: For there is no respect of persons with God.
12: For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13: (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14: For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16: In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Mitchell,

"Christianity is intolerant."

That is untrue and unsupported. Hermeneutics and human understanding can be and often is intolerlant but G-d is not by definition. It is the illogic of conflating human perspective into that of G-d by derivation that is incompetent of both reason and rational theology.

The kind of Christianity that you and Falwell advocate is most intolerant but the Christ found in the Gospels and G-d found in expereince is not.

The Christianity you speak of is dying of its own irrlevancy. I think it is this that Jerry and now you in your post lament and try beyond reason to resuscitate while the patient is code blue -- terminally.

Thanks be to G-d for its passing. And thank you for putting Jerry's passing into perspective.

sw

Dr. Jerry Falwell was a man that stood for God's truths regardless of the consequences. He knew that there is a right and a wrong, and was not swayed by popular opinions. He stood by his convictions and I look forward to meeting him one day in heaven.

Dr. Jerry Falwell was a man that stood for God's truths regardless of the consequences. He knew that there is a right and a wrong, and was not swayed by popular opinions. He stood by his convictions and I look forward to meeting him one day in heaven.

Dr. Jerry Falwell was a man that stood for God's truths regardless of the consequences. He knew that there is a right and a wrong, and was not swayed by popular opinions. He stood by his convictions and I look forward to meeting him one day in heaven.

Much thanks to Dr. Mohler for his words on Jerry Falwell. For those of you who are Christians and support the ministry and the work of Dr. Falwell, I hope that you would respond to the naysayers in a way that would be Christ-honoring. In the face of hate and anger, don't respond likewise. Rather, respond by turning the other cheek and continuing the show a Christ-like love that would, by God's grace, penetrate stony hearts with the truth of salvation in Jesus Christ.

For those of you who consider Falwell to be a hateful and intolerant bigot, I'll give you credit--you got some of it right. I can't say whether he was hateful or a bigot, but I will say that he was intolerant. And that is what Christianity is about. First, let me make a disclaimer that there is a difference between intolerance and hatred. The Bible teaching Christians to be intolerant of sin, but to continue to show love and grace to the sinner. Falwell was fighting to maintain Christian morality in a nation that was widely embracing homosexuality and abortion as accepted moral practices. Falwell is not speaking from some hateful spirit within himself, but he is speaking truth from the Bible. Scripture clearly speaks of fetuses as babies in the womb... and how God has been intimately involved in the creation of that child. And it consistently portrays homosexuality as a sexual sin that deviated from the relationship that God planned for men and women to have in a monogomous, heterosexual marriage.

The Christianity that some people have talked about in these previous comments... the one that is tolerant of all different beliefs is not the Christianity of the Bible. The biblical God is not tolerant of all things, but it very exclusive. There is only one way to salvation, and that is through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. That includes repentance from sins clearly delineated in the Bible... including homosexuality.

Dr. Falwell's legacy is that he has given Christian's a voice that stands up against these issues. But, after reading Dr. Mohler's article, it is clear that homosexuality nor abortion were the greatest issues on Falwell's heart. The greatest issue on his heart, as well as the heart of all Christians, is the position of every man before a holy God who is loving enough to offer salvation to all those who would believe, but who is just enough to condemn all unrepentant sinners to hell. If you are reading this today, where do you stand before such a God? Dr. Falwell and other Christians implore you to turn from your unbelief and turn to Jesus Christ.

Dr Mohler wrote: "If Jerry Falwell could speak now of what he most loved about his ministry, I believe he would speak of all the achievements listed above. But more than these, he would be thankful for those who had come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through his preaching and witness."

Jesus tried to teach us about Love. Wake up world. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"So that, thus it is that natural men are held in the hand of God, over the pit of hell; they have deserved the fiery pit, and are already sentenced to it; and God is dreadfully provoked, his anger is as great towards them as to those that are actually suffering the executions of the fierceness of his wrath in hell, and they have done nothing in the least to appease or abate that anger, neither is God in the least bound by any promise to hold them up one moment; the devil is waiting for them, hell is gaping for them, the flames gather and flash about them, and would fain lay hold on them, and swallow them up; the fire pent up in their own hearts is struggling to break out: and they have no interest in any Mediator, there are no means within reach that can be any security to them. In short, they have no refuge, nothing to take hold of; all that preserves them every moment is the mere arbitrary will, and uncovenanted, unobliged forbearance of an incensed God."

" Therefore, let every one that is out of Christ, now awake and fly from the wrath to come."

excerpts from Rev. Johnathan Edwards

Just a quick hello to everyone who visits this post, including the sodomites. According to most sphincter stretching homosexuals, mankind evolved from apes. Do queers realize that somewhere in our distant past, there was probably an ape who had a great idea on a better handbag design. And had this ape contributed his genes to the genetic pool, a trendier handbag would have been made available to consumers thousands of years before their widespread acceptance. But unfortunately, that particular ape liked to ravage the rectums of other male apes, and thus his genetic makeup was prevented from being passed on to future generations of mankind's earlier ancestors.

Think of all the poop packing BF'ing queers throughout history who were denied the ability to contribute their special genetic makeup to the gene pool of humanity because of their proclivity for chewing on chunks of fecal material attached to the strands of hair surround the anus of another man. What do you queers make of that? Doesn't it seem that nature if a bit unfair to corn-holing homosexuals? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Hey Barry, do you practice diversity in spelling or are you still taking your pre-tests for the GED?

"The beauty of Israel is slain upon thy high places: how are the mighty fallen!

"Tell it not in Gath, publish it not in the streets of Askelon; lest the daughters of the Philistines rejoice, lest the daughters of the uncircumcised triumph."

--2 Samuel 1:19-20

Yo, Chris, if being gay is so dangerous to one's health, can you explain why my leading a deviant heterosexual lifestyle led to my getting AIDS? I have yet to meet or hear of a lesbian who got HIV that way. Should have stuck with the women.

Those are the medical consequences of being straight. Just ask a few million African women and children. Or maybe God just disapproves of those dark people.

"Thine, O Lord, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is Thine; Thine is the kingdom, O Lord, and Thou art exalted as Head above all" (I Chon. 29:11)

My little tribute to Dr. Falwell will be to continue praying for the fallen, the lost and the totally deprived.

WHat happens 12pm on Suday mornings (typically in the south?) The Good Christians crowd the lunch buffets, aurgue with the waitress, then eat so much that they need to take a nap. Trust me I know I used to be one. But what does the bible say about GLUTTNEY. Its one of the seven abominations of God. You never hear pasters speak on that sin. But The christians just love fat people! But of course fat people are GOOD and GAY people, Abortionist, and femenist are evil. the Bible says that GOD VIEWS ALL SIN EQUAL, so why do we classify which sins are better. Ironically Obesity seems to be what Killed Dr. Falwell. Your sins will consume YOU!

WHat happens 12pm on Suday mornings (typically in the south?) The Good Christians crowd the lunch buffets, aurgue with the waitress, then eat so much that they need to take a nap. Trust me I know I used to be one. But what does the bible say about GLUTTNEY. Its one of the seven abominations of God. You never hear pasters speak on that sin. But The christians just love fat people! But of course fat people are GOOD and GAY people, Abortionist, and femenist are evil. the Bible says that GOD VIEWS ALL SIN EQUAL, so why do we classify which sins are better.

Hey Gals,

Um, with the talk about Logic 101, how about a little talk about A&P 101?

Let me know what you find out.

Here's some help: The rectum was not made for the insertion and thrusting of a penis.

Thus the reason that AIDS is spreading rampantly througout the gay community. Not to mention the fecal matter. Oh, yeah, use a condom, that'll help.

Oh, by the way, SCIENCE says that gay men live on average 30 years fewer than the general population. This is just fact. It is a dangerous lifestyle.

Read one of the previous posts about the Medical Consequences of Homosexuality. It's a good read. It's science.

It amazes me how the pro-sodomite crowd is without mercy. No tolerance, compassion, just hatred. The man is dead. The same crowd found in the Bible in Genesis 19. Reprobates as found in Romans 1.

Let JF rest in peace and God be his Judge. I thankful for man like JF who make a stand. JF was firm in his stand but did not do it with violence and hatred. I think sodomites could learn from that.

Kev,

It's SCIENCE. Males who speak anti-gay rhetoric, abuse, political activism or hermeneutic discourse are scientifically shown by physical testing to be GAY. Deeply homophic, seriously self-hating, way-in-the-closet, cannot-accept-themselves, lie-about-their-orientation, GAY guys.

The more you write anti-gay rhetoric, abuse, political activism and hermeneutic vitriol the more concretely you prove who you really are.

This is what YOUR posts prove about YOU. Keep it up. With every post you make yourself more transparent. I really am thankful you are posting as you are. You are exposing the dirty little secret of the churches.

Homophia really is a mental illness. It afflicts men who cannot accept who they were born to be. Tell us all -- when was that first experience when the Devil tempted you by your being attacted to a another guy and it so TERRIFIED you you HAD to change into pretending to be straight? We are so interested to know.

sw

Kevin said "The greatest thing God did, besides creating me,....."
What an arrogant ahole.

JF is dead. It is unfortunate that the Christian faith and the world itself is a better place for his passing. Some men, like Osama Bin Laden, Fred Phelps, and Jerry Falwell, use faith as a shield and a sword for their political ambitions and reactionary wars on human understanding and progress. What JF never understood is that his actions and words, as is obvious when reading the posts above, separated the Children of God from each other instead of bringing them closer together. He was, and many other Christians are as well along with other religious fanatics, a part of the problem instead of being a part of the solution. His intolerance was faith-based and faith-justified, and his legacy will be one of a man of God who spread hatred and fear of others among the “faithful”.

As with most men who believe they speak for and know of the Will of God, the world is a better place when they are dead and their deaths should be noted as something of a blessing to those of us who struggle against the dogma and hatred they ascribe to their God. That may be a terrible truth but it is the truth nonetheless.

R.I.P. JF. Those of us still here will sleep better from now on as well and if you could have never imagined such a thing, that would be the very root of the problem. In some circles you will remembered as a good Christian man but for much of the rest of the word your version of Christianity is not just a bigoted intolerant version of the faith, it is the very type of thing the world would be better off without. Because you claimed it as your own, we are, terrible as it may seem, better off without you as well…

JF is dead. It is unfortunate that the Christian faith and the world itself is a better place for his passing. Some men, like Osama bin Laden, Fred Phelps, and Jerry Falwell, use faith as a shield and a sword for their political ambitions and reactionary wars on human understanding and progress. What JF never understood is that his actions and words, as is obvious when reading the posts above, separated the Children of God from each other instead of bringing them closer together. He was, and many other Christians are as well along with other religious fanatics, a part of the problem instead of being a part of the solution. His hatred was faith-based and faith-justified, and his legacy will be one of a man of God who spread hatred and fear of others among the “faithful”.

As with most men who believe they speak for and know of the Will of God, the world is a better place when they are dead and their deaths should be noted as something of a blessing to those of us who struggle against the dogma and hatred they ascribe to their God. That may be a terrible truth but it is the truth nonetheless.

R.I.P. JF. Those of us still here will sleep better from now on as well and if you could have never imagined such a thing, that would be the very root of the problem. In some circles you will remembered as a good Christian man but for much of the rest of the word your version of Christianity is not just a bigoted intolerant version of the faith, it is the very type of thing the world would be better off without. Because you claimed it as your own, we are, terrible as it may seem, better off without you as well…

Sometimes Jerry would really embarrass me because I felt like he handled things in the wrong way saying judgmental things. I was apprehensive when he was being the "Christian" spokesperson on TV and think "I hope he doesn't put his foot in his mouth again".

I think Jerry meant well and he seemed to really love the Lord. However he was flawed...just like I am flawed. He did what he thought the Lord wanted and was successful in helping many people trust the Lord. Now that he is with the Lord, he can see the fruit of his labor and the mistakes of his humanity.

"E Favorite", you are the last disgusting, low-grade person who would possibly decide what Jerry Falwell's legacy shall be. A silly online discussion does not constitute a legacy.

Yes, it is ALWAYS low-grade and disgusting to witness sexual perverts on parade, whatever the venue. My point was that brother Falwell fell into the too-common trap of trying to condemn the symptom rather than the core sin: refusal to glorify God for Who He is. You can't "cure" a sin to which God Himself has given a person over. Read Romans 1, as I said; when the Bible repeats something thrice in one chapter you can be assured it's a critical point to know.

It's the ultimate theological irony, however, that sexual perverts are right about one thing: "I am born this way" is so true; man is born with a sin nature, and unless he is willing to be transformed by the Holy Spirit to follow Christ and believe the truth, he will always despise and defy God rather than live a normal life. Yes, mankind is "born this way", but doesn't have to remain that way.

The pervert knows that, too; it's just a battle of wills. A battle that the God-hater is going to lose to those worms in his casket.

What a fitting legacy for Jerry Falwell - the lowest grade, most disgusting discourse I have ever seen on "on faith."

What a silly irony, that one of the many legacies left by this multi-faceted man of God would be this preposterous 'debate' between perverts and Christ-followers who are as misguided about how to speak to sexual perversion as was Dr. Falwell.

You see, Paul reiterates THRICE in Romans 1:18ff that GOD gives the sexual pervert over to his perversion, AFTER that person refuses to give God His due glory. Sexual perversion is one of many sins, but an especially gross and heinous ones, with serious results. Apparently the results also include radical reactions to the perverts, as was a refrain of Dr. Falwell's, as it is of many clueless Christians today.

I pray for my fellow Christians to read God's Word, and understand how pointless it is to debate a God-hater. You will NOT arm-wrestle God for the heart of that person, regardless how good your intentions! There is a progression to perversion; it begins with refusal to glorify God, and only ENDS with perverting sex, and everything else, as the 'Strangely Warmed' poster-boy here, attests.

When a pervert gives up his or her rebellion, and refusal to acknowledge and glorify God for who He is, then God restores the mind and (to some extnet) the body of that sinner. It is so with many sins, but especially so with sexual perversion. For this reason Paul reiterates the principle THRICE in Romans 1.

Dr. Falwell led many Christians in many great works, and excellent lives of service. He also led many Christians into terribly destructive, unbiblical Zionist "end times" false prophecy. Many have died needlessly as a result, and so I'm sure my brother Jerry Falwell has much to answer for before the judgment seat of God. Falwell's love for the camera, the "big project", and the 1947 political concoction called "Israel", were definitely weak points in the brother's legacy.

But I know that in his heart, he was truly a lover of God, bound to glorify Him -- which is more than anyone can say about the sexual pervert, who was ever the brunt of Falwell's (misplaced) wrath.

It's difficult to discuss the life and times of a great man such as Jerry Falwell, and the tremendous contributions to mankind and America that he made with great self sacrifice, during this time of sorrow. It's made that much more difficult to attempt to articulate well thought out views regarding the virtuous life with a bunch of homosexuals, let alone a bunch of idiotic homosexual morons. But I suppose that's all that's left here.

It's clear homosexuals do have a sense of right and wrong. That view, as I understand it, is 1) homosexuals are right, and 2) anyone who thinks otherwise is a flaming closeted butt humper who needs destroyed. Thus far, no homosexual has made a compelling argument as to why ALL forms of sexual behavior should be considered healthy and normal. I have the sense that homosexuals consider heterosexuality to be acceptable, and men humping each other's butts is also acceptable, as well as women sharing a dildo. But that seems to be about as far as homosexuals are willing to go in terms of granting other sexual orientations the green light to knock themselves out as they please. A very bigoted point of view.

Homosexuals will be forever indebted to heterosexuals for their very existence. From an evolutionary position, without us virile and potent male heterosexuals, who are not afraid or intimidated by women (as homosexuals must be), we would have never evolved to where we are today. Nature does not reward men grinding away at each others bottoms. In fact, nature has severely punished fudge packers with an assortment of STDs that has ravaged the homosexual community. Had our apely ancestors been content to having just two wangers in the same bed, we would have never made it out of the jungle.

Fortunately, mankind didn't have to rely on cowardly, self indulgent, narcissistic, impulsive homosexuals. For if we did, none of us would be here today, honoring the life of Rev. Falwell.

Hey Kev,

A straight man who is actually straight never has to "choose" to be straight and not be gay, nor prove it. A gay man who is actually gay never has to "choose" to be gay and not be straight nor prove it.

Only a profoundly closeted, deeply self-hating GAY man thinks he can "choose" to not be himself -- GAY -- and try to be something he isn't -- "STRAIGHT".

Why do you struggle so desperately against the truth? What are trying to prove and who are you trying to convince? Certainly not me because I am totally positive you are a self-loathing, closeted GAY man. So you must be trying to prove something to yourself and your self-loathing, deeply closeted GAY buddies.

Or maybe this is a big joke to you?

Either way, you have my pity.

sw

"I still haven't gotten much of a response from homosexuals regarding whether all sexual behaviors should be considered normal and healthy. I did get one push back though, that sex requires consent, and most of the really aweful behaviors are rarely engaged in. The idea of requiring 'consent' is very judgemental, as it requires some basic notion of right and wrong. "

Ok, first of all, just stupid...and growing desperate.

If there is no consent on the the part of anyone involved, it is rape, a crime, and it should be. No one ever said that unwilling victims should be required to submit to anyone else's desire. That is what is called a Straw Man Argument. It gets covered in Logic 101.

Children, animals, corpses cannot consent.

I know that God is perfect, but if he could make a mistake...it would be allowing this statement of yours to be correct: "The greatest thing God did, besides creating me..."

It would not be in my nature to even think of running someone over, thus no need to choose one way or another. If I ran someone down it be a total accident.

I have a strong work ethic, like to eat and live indoors. I don't choose to work, it is unquestionably necessary.

You cannot choose not to breathe, at least not long enough to harm yourself, so that is just you grasping at straws. It's a reflex. That's elementary Biology.

If you spent more time getting a GED and less demonstrating to a bunch of on-line strangers how gay you are, you might be a better person overall.

You are sorely lacking in basic biology, logic, and research skills (as your book copying, disregarding context, current relevance, and thoroughness explicitly shows). Then the "potty talk" to really BOLSTER your intellectual standing just tells so much.

Besides further proving how gay (and bitter about it...really, it IS ok!) you are, with every subsequent posting you display your lack of general education too. It's unfortunate, and saddens my heart.

Gay people who can accept themselves are so much more clever, wittier, and well read than you. It's never too late to improve your personal situation my friend.

P.S.

To SW: AWWW! You're sweet, but polygamy is illegal, and Kevin wouldn't like us to choose that.

Seems I have some homosexuals riding my butt hard today regarding my comment about making the choice NOT to engage in homosexuality today. The standard refrain seems to be that by making that decision, I must be a tortured, closet queer.

The greatest thing God did, besides creating me, was to give me the ability to freely make decisions for myself. As he gave everyone else, including homosexuals. So, I make decisions every day. I chose NOT to rape someone today (I must be a closet rapist). I chose TO pay my taxes today (I must be a closet tax evader). I chose NOT to run over anyone while driving to work today (I must be a closet hit-and-run driver). I chose TO go to work today (I must be a closet welfare-queen). I chose TO shower this morning (I must be a closet smelliophobe). I chose NOT to smoke today (I must be a closet smoker). I chose TO pray this morning (I must be a closet athiest). I chose TO breathe during the day (I must be a closet asfyxiator). I chose NOT to murder someone today (I must be a closet murderer). I choose TO mow my yard this evening (I must be a closet... whatever).

And on and on it goes. I still haven't gotten much of a response from homosexuals regarding whether all sexual behaviors should be considered normal and healthy. I did get one push back though, that sex requires consent, and most of the really aweful behaviors are rarely engaged in. The idea of requiring 'consent' is very judgemental, as it requires some basic notion of right and wrong. And who should decide whether something is right or wrong? I think homosexuals who are against a man's right to rape an 8 year old boy are very bigoted. Who are you to judge? I think homosexuals who deplore a man's desire to have sex with animals, or corpses, to be very judgemental, and again, very bigoted.

It seems most homosexuals are very bigoted indeed. They seem to only want to secure certain unalienable rights for themselves, for sexual behavior that has been regarded as deviant and sinful for all of the history of mankind, but are not willing to grant those same rights to other people, such as the man who wants to rape your 4 year old daughter. Most homosexuals, being the bigots that they are, would condemn that poor man, who is only expressing what he truly feels is natural and healthy for himself.

Bigots!

Dear Kevin,:
"Wow, what a nice day today. Another day to reject the homosexual lifestyle. Yes, I am making that choice today. I choose NOT to hump another man's butt today."

Having to wake up in the morning and repeat this affirmation to yourself is the GAYEST thing ever!

If you have to make a conscious decision not to do "that", then you actually have the desire.

It is your denial of being simply who you are that makes you believe that homosexualty is a choice. You mistake denying who you really are with choosing to be who you actually are.

You can choose to deny you are a brunette by coloring your hair red, but you couldn't have chosen to be born a redhead, and you aren't really one either.

Real straight people don't have to "choose" not to engage in those acts (the ones you seem to get so much infantile enjoyment out of typing) they simply wouldn't.

Posted May 18, 2007 10:48 AM

-------------------------------------------------

Whoever you are I love you.

Wanna get hitched!!??

[I"M KIDDING! Well maybe not, but how could I resist, huh?]

Your post is great. They just don't seem to get what they reveal about themsleves when they write this way. The churches are FILLED with self-hating closeted GAY guys. That's the point of all my posting. When are they going to get a clue and wake up from their sleepwaling trances?

sw

Re: Anon's Posted May 17, 2007 11:50 PM

Sources.

You have provided no COMPETENT sources that may be reviewed for their correct attribution, applicable conguency, methodology or accuracy in procedure and conclusion.

I have.

You are proving the science. Any male who engages in anti-gay rhetoric, activism, abuse or hermeneutic discourse is himself a profoundly closeted, internally homophic, self-hating gay man.

I don't make the rules. I have no agenda. I am just the messenger of an inconvenient truth.

And you keep proving the validity of it. Keep going. I love being proved right.

sw

Quick Question:
Why "G-d" and not just "God"?

Posted May 17, 2007 10:42 PM

-------------------------------------

I love answering this question and never tire of receiving it. Thank you for bringing it up.

I take the 2nd Commandment seriously. I take the Decalogue seriously but this one is precious in an important way.

The human condition is to give allegiance unquestioningly to the physical -- what I can see, hear, feel, say, smell seems to have an inordinate and very likely unhealthy hold upon us all.

The 2nd Commandment deals directly with this. Writing "God" presumes a claim that is not real and is in direct violation of the Commandment.

The Jews never wrote their words for "G-d" correctly -- it would be presumptuous and impertinent. G-d should always be a mystery to approach never to be apprehended.

"God" written this way is a graven image. And the requirement to write it this way is an expression of worshipping the graven image and not G-d beyond all human expressions.

"YWHW" is another Judaic form. When I write I try to ever remind myself and my reader that G-d deserves our full respect and writing it so accomplishes this.

Also it is thought provoking and chiding. It invites your question without my being presumptuous, allowing me to share this with you.

I appreciate your inquiry.

sw

Kevin: "I choose NOT to hump another man's butt today. The choice is mine, and I have made my choice."
And every straight man can make the choice not to hump a woman's vagina today. What's your point?

"Every man who chooses to engage in the perverse act of homosexuality will put yet another strain on our already over burdened health care system."
As does every nicotine addict who lights up yet another Marlboro, and every sugar addict who wolfs down yet another Twinkie. Again, what's your point?

"By engaging in these dangerous acts, and by spreading their infectious STD's, queers are taking the money out of the paychecks of every hard working man and woman, who has to make their income available to government so that these aweful homosexual diseases can be eradicated."
By engaging in the dangerous act of smoking, every smoker puts those around him or her at risk of deadly diseases. Treatment of tobacco-related illnesses takes money out of the pockets of non-smoking taxpayers. Yet again I ask, what is your point?

"Who knows how many children suffering from cancer will have their treatment delayed at the hospital today, because some queer is taking up room and resources because of a bleeding rectum."
Who knows how many children suffereing from cancer will have their treatment delayed because of surgeons removing a diseased lung from someone who chose to inhale the smoke from three packs of Camels a day for 20 years? Who knows how many children suffering from cancer, asthma, and autoimmune deficiencies would not be suffering if their parents had not smoked around them, or if their mothers had not smoked while pregnant?

"Every homosexual should consider that before they make that fateful decision of letting another man hump their butt."
Every smoker should consider that before they make that fateful decision to light up.

Why aren't the fundamentalists taking on the tobacco industry with the same vigor with which they attack gay men and lesbians?
And before you get the idea that I'm a rabid anti-smoker, relax. I am a former smoker who quit because I got pregnant and chose not to start again. But I respect the right of smokers to smoke. I simply used smoking as an example to make a point.

"Wow, what a nice day today. Another day to reject the homosexual lifestyle. Yes, I am making that choice today. I choose NOT to hump another man's butt today."

Having to wake up in the morning and repeat this affirmation to yourself is the GAYEST thing ever!

If you have to make a conscious decision not to do "that", then you actually have the desire.

It is your denial of being simply who you are that makes you believe that homosexualty is a choice. You mistake denying who you really are with choosing to be who you actually are.

You can choose to deny you are a brunette by coloring your hair red, but you couldn't have chosen to be born a redhead, and you aren't really one either.

Real straight people don't have to "choose" not to engage in those acts (the ones you seem to get so much infantile enjoyment out of typing) they simply wouldn't.

"By engaging in these dangerous acts, and by spreading their infectious STD's, queers are taking the money out of the paychecks of every hard working man and woman, who has to make their income available to government so that these aweful homosexual diseases can be eradicated. "

I'm sure your gay ass pays taxes too Kevin.

Another day to reject the homosexual lifestyle. Yes, I am making that choice today. I choose NOT to hump another man's butt today.

If you were straight, it wouldn't be a "choice".

Wow, what a nice day today. Another day to reject the homosexual lifestyle. Yes, I am making that choice today. I choose NOT to hump another man's butt today. The choice is mine, and I have made my choice. Every man who chooses to engage in the perverse act of homosexuality will put yet another strain on our already over burdened health care system. By engaging in these dangerous acts, and by spreading their infectious STD's, queers are taking the money out of the paychecks of every hard working man and woman, who has to make their income available to government so that these aweful homosexual diseases can be eradicated. Who knows how many children suffering from cancer will have their treatment delayed at the hospital today, because some queer is taking up room and resources because of a bleeding rectum. Every homosexual should consider that before they make that fateful decision of letting another man hump their butt.

Poor Gay Chris...

"Question: Why do gay men on average live about 30 years fewer than the general population?"

That's not even REMOTELY true. Like so untrue...it's like "disease rises from miasmas" and "tomatoes are poisonous" and "the Earth is flat" untrue.

I'd be embarassed to even ask that in jest!

Gay Kevin promotes more of his personal denial by posting:

"Homosexuality is a slippery slope"

A "Slippery Slope" is a type of invalid argument.

Your assertion that "allowing" homosexuality requires allowing all sorts of other "perversions" is a Slippery Slope argument. By definition! Take a Logic 101 class...sheesh! Not valid!

Everything else that you name either lacks "consent" on the part of all parties involved, or is the least likely to happen.

How long before you and Chris settle down, buy furniture together, and develop some self-esteem?

That last "Amazing Grace" post was mine, sorry.

Bears repeating:

Queers are NOT born that way.

The evidence supporting the "born that way" claim of Isay and other gay activists is tenuous. It has been uncritically accepted and hyped by the media and some less-than-careful researchers. But it hasn't been replicated by others and is riddled with technical problems.

On the other side is a body of scientific evidence that suggests that homosexuality is adopted by people who are confused, sexually adventurous and/or rebellious. This evidence suggests that sexual orientation is flexible, not immutable. And the evidence comes from the largest studies on the subject, conducted by researchers on both sides of the gay rights debate.

Ah, but alas, my friend SW, you are wrong yet again. There most certainly is a difference. Do not yet turn a blind eye.

The medical consequences of homosexuality are extremely more harsh than that of heterosexuality. You conveniently run from truth and logic and that is your privilege with your post-modern point of view.

However, AIDS, Hepatitis, etc. do not know anything of your post-modern hermeneutic.

The human anatomy and physiology also do not conform to your twisted and ill thought out hermeneutic.

Please do some study on this issue, it may save your life. This is only for your good.

Question: Why do gay men on average live about 30 years fewer than the general population?

Homosexuality is an extremely destructive, dangerous, and deadly lifestyle. Live it if you want, but take off the blinders. Shake your fist at the Deity you do not believe in, but take off the blinders. Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free indeed.

What a relief would be yours if you were ever set free from that devastating bondage.

I truly have compassion on you.

Maybe one day you will truly be able to sing: "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now am found, Was blind but now I see."

The difficulty with accepting homosexuality as a viable alternative lifestyle, one that should be promoted and accepted as normal and healthy, is that society must then accept all of the different sexual behaviors that people can get involved in. Once an abberent, abnormal, deviant, and sinful sexual orientation is accepted, then they must all be accepted. For instance, an adult male having sex with a 10 year old boy (or girl) is OK, if the boy consents. Parent having sex with their children is OK. Siblings having sex with each other is OK. People having sex with animals, or corpses, must also then be accepted as normal and healthy. Men having sex with 2 year old toddlers would be considered OK.

Once we accept 1 deviant sexual orientation, we must then accept all deviant sexual orientations. Because if homosexuals demand that thier sexual practices not be discriminated against, then the man (or woman) who has sex with his 7 year old daughter (or son) can also clamor for equal treatment under the law.

Homosexuality is a slippery slope, and violates the commands of our creator. Turn to the Lord, and stop banging each other in the butts.

Dear Dr. Mohler,

I listen to your broadcast on podcast here in Denver and I heard your tribute to Jerry Falwell. Your suggestion to read your article and consider Rev. Falwell was very well done. On May 14, 1972 I became a believer at Thomas Road Baptist Church. I then moved away. When you ask about the measure of his life, how can I think of him except that through his preaching I understood my need of a savior and benefitted from his faithfulness to the gospel. (I was 19 at the time). My life was forever changed. Whether I always agreed with the way he did everything, perhaps not, but in his life I see the pattern of a William Wilberforce who believed our faith should affect our politics and life. I have no doubt that he was ready for death because he lived in the shadow of the cross and lived to make that known. I will remember him with prayers of thanksgiving.

Why "G-d" and not just "God"?

Dear Brian,

Re: your post May 17, 2007 6:33 PM.

I think your are asking the question in a way that begs the answer: no where. Which of course is your intent. I'm busted on that one. But wait. No where does the bible say that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath and yet the dramatic end of Jesus' life, the resurrection experience and the passage of sufficient time made the acceptance of Emperor Constantine's edict declaring Sunday as the Christian Sabbath by force of political power a reality, which produced two days of rest creating the weekend when before this did not exist. The Sabbath is SATURDAY the last day of the week. The first day of the week is Sunday and no where will you find G-d's inerrant command that Sunday is the new Sabbath in your inerrant bible.

So now you are busted too. Will you now give up Sunday in Church and go to Shoel on Saturday? Because there is no justification biblically for Sunday being the new Christian Sabbath.

In fact I can quote numerous verses attributed to Jesus that one must observe the Jewish Sabbath, the last day of the week, Saturday -- not Sunday. Paul well after Jesus' Crucifixion observes Saturday as the Sabbath and worships the Christ on this day not Sunday.

Also Jesus did not say any of the red-letter words in the Gospels. There is no basis in fact for this claim. Paul makes no claim for quoting Jesus and his is the first written post-Crucifixion materials. The Marcan Gospel was written between 65-75 CE 30-35 years after Jesus' earthly life come to an end. The Matthean Gospel 75-85 CE. The Lucan Gospel Pt.'s 1 & 2, Acts, were written between 80-90 CE. The Johannon Logos Gospel 90-100 CE. All of them were appended and annotated differently between copies -- no 2 alike. The Scribes were employed by the privileged Pharisees and Sadducees and were a very expensive luxury. There were no cameras, tape recorders, video cameras, pens, paper, typewriters, teletype, TV, radio, newspapers or any of these modern recordation technologies present at that time. Scribes with styli, pieces of parchment, writing stones and blotters did not follow Jesus and the disciples around 24/7 to capture for posterity every G-dly utterance. Jesus was poor and the disciples had no means for paying the Scribes fees for their services.

So where did the revered words come from? Oral traditions in remembrance of Him in the Synagogues on SATURDAYS by the very Jews who were impacted by his ministry and brutal death.

So, Brain, it's a very difficult proposition to state anything unequivocally because it's all about interpretation. In fact interpretation is the primary difficulty. It is the reason for so much discord and rancor. MY interpretation is RIGHT and yours is WRONG or vise versa.

Yet faith evolves. The very idea so repugnant to traditionalists is embodied and recorded in the bible. Genesis 1-20 G-d a man who visits with famous characters -- not omnipresent, omnipotent or omniscient. He has to ask questions of Abraham and send angels to gather intelligence from Lot. By the time we get to the Post-Exilic period the Jewish G-d is expanded and evolve well beyond these limitations. The new testament materials dramatically chronicle a huge shift in thinking about G-d, humankind and heaven. Then we froze any further development in the 2nd century CE. Iraneus effectively fixed our current view the bible we have today.

But Judaism continued to evolve -- The Talmud & Kabballah are post-Crucifixion continuing development that would not have occurred if they followed the Christian path. Elaine Pagels has opened the sweep of intense complexity and creative thought that never made it into the current Canon BUT the Nag Hammadi were discovered in the 20th century. What do we do about them?

Women's independence, the abolition of slavery the expansion of civil liberties -- none of these are biblically justified. None.

And yet the drive to expand human understanding and give up obsolete notions moves ever onwards.

Read all of I Samuel, the first two chapters of II Samuel, all of The Song of Songs [Solomon], Matthew 19:1-12, Acts 10:9-40, 16:13-40 and then let's talk more. I hear the call for giving up prejudices and expanding civil liberties for the previously undeserving and dispossessed -- aren’t gay persons just latest in long line these?

Meditate upon this.

G-d Bless,

sw

SW,

No offense taken---unfortunately, I have said far more offensive things to people. I forgive you, bro. In your previous post at 5:29 p.m., you said the following: "When you literalize and absolutize the bible you make of it a graven image which you then worship -- contrary to Jesus' ministry AND the 2nd Commandment." You make a reasonable point, but it does invite biblical reproof. The reason I adhere to the Scriptures as the authoritative, written Word of God is not because I have made it an idol of worship, nor have I violated the 2nd commandment. On the contrary, I adhere to the Bible because it simply, yet profoundly, is the declarative words of God to the entire world to dislay the wonders of His grace through the work and person of Jesus Christ. I adhere to the Word because Jesus commands me to do so. In Matthew 5: 17-20, Jesus says "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jor or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks on of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Also, Jesus says in Matthew 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." Again, Christ says in John 5:24, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death into life."
Again, Christ says in John 14:23-24, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."
Therefore, in my obedience to the Word, I am being obedient to Christ and to the Lord. In obeying the Bible, I am not making it an idol of worship, I am making Him, Jesus Christ, my only idol of worship.

You also referenced the passage in the Bible where Christ says, "Judge no one for ANY reason."
May I say that this passage is one of the most misinterpreted passages in the Holy Writ. Yes, Jesus DOES prohibit judging, particulary when the person judging is guilty of the same offense by which he is judging the accused. However, there is also present in Scripture a necessary, discerning kind of judgement that is needed to distinguish true belief from unbelief. This is given, in Jesus' words, in Matthew 7:17-20: "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore BY THEIR FRUITS (i.e. there actions, their words, their choices) you will know them. We are admonished to judge belief from unbelief by using a person "fruits" as the litmus test.

Again, may I revisit my original question to you? Where in Scripture, specifically, is homosexuality permitted? I am requesting actual verses, as opposed to your imposition of a post-modern hermeneutic upon existing Scriptures that expressively prohibit homosexual activity.

SW, I will be going out of town tomorrow with my father, so I won't be able to respond further until Sunday. I did not want you to think that I had become disinterested.

Have a good weekend,

Brian

Chris,

I feel no anger at all. You are the one who is enraged. I feel sorrow and pity for you. How terrible it must be for you to see the development of full acceptance of gay people and the relinguishment of prejudice. Your stastics are not facts, they are highly flawed and refuted and no ammount of you or NARTH repeating them will make them valid.

The Medical Consequences of Homosexuality are exactly the same as the Medical Consequences of Heterosexuality. There's no difference. Poor, poor fool.

No competent medical researcher aor academicain ever soley relies upon internet material. They rely upon libraries and published professional sources -- the very sources I cited.

I feel so profoundly sorry for you.

sw

Didn't like the statistics, eh, SW?

Facts are what they are, just facts!!!

Queers die earlier than the regular population from AIDS and other medical complications. These are facts, no spin. I'm sorry this makes you so angry and full of rage, but if I were in a self-destructive lifestyle like you I would feel the same.

There is hope. God can rescue you from this dead-end and destructive lifestyle.

Oh, by the way, do you know the Medical Consequences of Homosexuality? Plese list them.

Chris,

That is NARTH's reprint of Cameron's materials. You are a horror show. Poor, poor boy or girl -- which is it? I feel so terrible sorry for you. You sound just like a daughter of Fred Phelps. Poor, pitiful you. The hate will eat you alive and leave a lifeless husk.

May G-d have pity upon your sorriful soul.

The Peace of Christ be with you and heal you.

sw

Chris,

I'll do you one better -- two actually. Ted Haggart, the Leader of the Amreican Association of Evangelical Churches -- 30,000,000 congregants -- paid male prostitutes surreptiously from his church's coffers for illicit gay sex and methanphetamines and is an addict.

Paul Barnes of a Denver Evangelical Church did the same.

They did this because of the nastiness they were subjected to by intolerant, ignorant, abusive people just like you.

If they could have been accepted and nurtured they would not have ended up in their current circumstances of brokenness, disgrace and shame.

Why are you so horrible? What does it get you?

sw

A good read:

"Born That Way?"

Don't Think so.

Gay activists regularly claim that they were "born that way" and thus cannot change their desires or stop their activities. Yet there are numerous documented cases in which homosexuals have changed. The Masters-Johnson Institute reported that: "A 25-year-old man had had his first sexual experience when he was 13 years old. It was arranged by his lesbian mother with an older gay man. After that episode, his imagery and interpersonal sexual experience were exclusively homosexual.... The man was motivated to establish a heterosexual life style because he was sincerely distressed by public disapproval of homosexuality and his personal loneliness. [After treatment, he] has been followed for 3 1/2 years. His sexual interaction has been exclusively heterosexual. He has moved out of the gay community and has changed... his life style."(1)

Was this man's sexual orientation biologically deturmined?
If so, how was it initially set - toward heterosexuality or homosexuality?
And if it was set initially, how was he able to change?
The answers to these seemingly "esoteric" questions matter a great deal. For one thing, the political stakes are high. The March 3, 1993 New York Times/CBS News Poll reported that a majority of those who believe that gays "cannot change" favored permitting homosexuals to serve in the military. Only a third of those who believed it is a choice felt the same way.

Many opinions about gay rights hinge on the question of whether gays are "born that way" and/or "can't change." For instance, 57% of those who believe it is immutable consider homosexuality an acceptable life style vs 18% of those who consider it a choice. But if homosexual activity is no more inevitable or unchangeable than drunkenness or drug use, most people seem willing to insist that homosexuals abandon their destructive behavior.

Two prominent 'homosexual' psychiatrists, examining the evidence of their own lives as well as those of others, came to different conclusions in this long-running debate. The first of these, Sigmund Freud, saw his homosexual urges as pathological. Through self-analysis, he overcame them and eventually rejoiced in the "greater independence that results from having overcome my homosexuality."(2) The second of these, Richard Isay, confronted his desires, pronounced them "natural," divorced his wife and joined the gay subculture.(3)

In 1992 Isay admitted that the "conviction among most, though not all, dynamically oriented psychiatrists in general and psychoanalysts in particular [is] that homosexuality can and should be changed to heterosexuality."(4) Yet, while acknowledging this consensus among his colleagues, Isay called attempts to change homosexual desire "the greatest abuse of psychiatry in America today." Why? Because the "attempt to change is extremely harmful."(3) Instead, society should change to accommodate homosexuality.

Dr. Isay, who chairs the American Psychiatric Association's committee on Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Issues, argues that homosexuality "is constitutional [that is, biological in origin]."(4) To support his position, he cited as proof two 1991 studies - the "gay brains" research of Simon LeVay(5) and the "gay twins" study of Bailey & Pillard.(6)

In 1993, Drs. William Byne and Bruce Parsons, researchers at the New York State Psychiatric Institute, critically reviewed "the evidence favoring a biologic theory" presented by LeVay and Bailey & Pillard.(7) They concluded in the Archives of General Psychiatry that "[t]here is no evidence at present to substantiate a biologic theory" of sexual orientation!

How could these researchers dismiss as inadequate the very studies that were fundamental to Dr. Isay's argument - and that even conservative columnist William- F. Buckley referred to in 1993 as proving that homosexuals are 'born that way?'

Byne & Parsons remembered that from the 1940s through the 1970s it was widely argued and believed in the scientific community that male homosexuals had a deficiency of male hormones. However, only 3 "studies had indicated lower testosterone levels in male homosexuals, while 20 studies found no differences based on sexual orientation, and two reported elevated testosterone levels in male homosexuals." In spite of these other studies, textbooks alluded to the supposed "fact" of hormonal differences for three decades. But this "scientific" belief was false.

Gay Brains: Byne & Parsons observed that the LeVay study was based upon a supposed functional correlation between the SDN-POA brain center in male rats and a brain center called INAH3 in humans. LeVay reasoned that since the SDN-POA had an effect on male rat crouching/mounting behavior, then a corresponding difference in the same part of the brain would make men homosexual. He assumed that the INAH3 in men was essentially the same as the SDN-POA in rats. But, as it turns out, the "effective lesion site within the anterior hypothalamus for disrupting mounting behavior [in male rats] lies above, not within, the SDN-POA. Thus, the SDN-POA does not play a critical role in male-typical behavior in male rats, and the correlation between its size and mounting frequencies clearly does not reflect a causal relationship." LeVay compared human brains with rat brains but failed to locate the analogous region. Instead of the "bullseye" that Isay and the mass media celebrated, it was an embarrassing miss!

LeVay's study also had numerous technical problems. For instance, his samples included 19 brains of gays who died of AIDS and 16 brains from men whose sexual orientation was unknown. He assumed the 16 were heterosexual, even though 5 had died of AIDS. More importantly, although LeVay argued that a small INAH3 "caused" homosexuality, some of the gays had an INAH3 that was larger than the average size of the INAH3 of the "heterosexuals," and some of the "heterosexuals" had an INAH3 that was smaller than those of gays. So some of his gays "should" have been heterosexual and vice-versa.

Gay Twins: Bailey & Pillard reported that 52% of identical twins of homosexuals were also homosexual. But after the media finished hyping Bailey & Pillard's results, King & McDonald(8) published a new 'sexual orientation of twins' study, which found concordance rates for homosexuality of 25% in identical twins. That's half the 52% reported by Bailey & Pillard. Drs. Byne & Parsons noted the large proportions of identical twins in both studies "who were discordant for homosexuality despite sharing not only their genes but also their prenatal and familial environments... [which] underscores our ignorance of the factors that are involved, and the manner in which they interact, in the emergence of sexual orientation."

The evidence supporting the "born that way" claim of Isay and other gay activists is tenuous. It has been uncritically accepted and hyped by the media and some less-than-careful researchers. But it hasn't been replicated by others and is riddled with technical problems.

On the other side is a body of scientific evidence that suggests that homosexuality is adopted by people who are confused, sexually adventurous and/or rebellious. This evidence suggests that sexual orientation is flexible, not immutable. And the evidence comes from the largest studies on the subject, conducted by researchers on both sides of the gay rights debate.

Sexual Preference Shifts
That sexual desire and behavior are flexible was demonstrated by the Kinsey Institute in 1970. It reported(9) that 81% of 684 gays and 93% of 293 lesbians had changed or shifted either their sexual feelings or behaviors after age 12.58% of the gays and 77% of the lesbians reported a second shift in sexual orientation; 31% of the gays and 49% of the lesbians reported a third shift; and 13% of the gays and 30% of the lesbians reported even a fourth shift in sexual orientation before "settling" into adult homosexuality. The shifts reported by these subjects varied in degree, but some were quite dramatic - about a quarter of gays and a third of lesbians once had heterosexual desires and 5% of heterosexual men and 3% of heterosexual women once had substantial homosexual desires. Heterosexuals in the study were much less likely to report shifts in their orientation. Even so, 29% of 337 heterosexual men and 14% of 140 heterosexual women reported at least one shift; while 4% of the men and 1% of the women reported at least three shifts. Immutable things like eye color or skin color don't change once, much less three or four times!

Unlike biological changes, the shifts in sexual orientation began at age 18 or later for half of both gays and lesbians. Sexual changes, five or more years after puberty, are exceptionally late and without biological precedent in development. But changes in tastes (e.g., food or entertainment) often take place around age 18.

Other Evidence
The same Kinsey study also produced other evidence that can not be explained in terms of biological determinism, but would readily support the idea that choice is involved in sexual orientation and behavior:

74% of their gays admitted to having been sexually aroused by a female and 80% of lesbians said that they had been sexually aroused by a male;
19% of their gays and 38% of lesbians had been heterosexually married;
20% of gays, 5% of heterosexual men, 7% of lesbians and no heterosexual women had had sex with animals.
Consistent with these results, the Family Research Institute (FRI) 10 conducted a nationwide random survey of 4,340 adults drawn from 5 U.S. cities in 1983 and found:

82% of those currently lesbian and 66% of those currently gay said that they had been in love with someone of the opposite sex;
88% of lesbians and 73% of gays had been sexually aroused by someone of the opposite sex;
67% of lesbians and 54% of gays reported current sexual attraction to the opposite sex;
85% of lesbians and 54% of gays, as adults, had sexual relations with someone of the opposite sex;
32% of gays and 47% of lesbians had been heterosexually married; and
17% of gays, 3% of heterosexual men, 10% of lesbians and 1% of heterosexual women reported sex with animals.
These are the kinds of sexual choices one would expect from the sexually adventurous or confused. Unless Dr. Isay and his supporters are willing to believe that people are "born" to fall in love, get married or to have sex with animals, some measure of choice, rather than biological inevitability, must have been involved.

The ability to change explains the FRI findings that:

Overall, 7.8% of women and 12% of men claimed to have been homosexually aroused at some point in their life. Yet 59% of the once homosexually aroused women and 51% of the once homosexually aroused men were currently heterosexual;
5.1% of the women and 9.4% of the men admitted to at least one homosexual partner. Of these, only 58% of the women and 61% of the men were currently gay;
4.1% of women and 5.8% of men reported that they had, at least once, been "in homosexual love." Yet only 66% of those who had fallen in love with a member of the same sex were currently gay; and
almost a third of those who admitted to homosexual relations in adulthood were now heterosexual.
People Can Change
Where is the "biological inevitability" or "immutability" in these findings? The evidence suggests that people can modify their sexual tastes. The FRI survey in Dallas,(11) similar to the Kinsey survey in San Francisco, found that 1% of heterosexual females and 3% of heterosexual males at one time considered themselves homosexual (i.e., were ex-gay when interviewed).

And a survey of 50 wives who had no homosexual experiences or interests up to age 30, but who participated in homosexual sex acts as part of "swinging" (where married people swap partners) reported that all of these women eventually considered themselves to be bisexual.(12)

These are among the findings that seriously challenge the claim that sexual orientation is predetermined before or after birth, or even that it is permanently fixed in adulthood.

What is at Stake?
If sexual orientation is actually a matter of choice like drug use, we can expect that more of our youth will try homosexuality the more that it is tolerated and encouraged. Along these lines, Dr. Christopher Hewitt's(13) analysis of the frequency of homosexuality in various societies is summarized in the Table: societies that accept homosexuality have more of it and those that disapprove of and punish it have considerably less of it

With the above in mind, consider our society's future in light of D. Minkowitz's December 29, 1992 editorial in the national gay magazine, The Advocate:
"I am increasingly impatient with the old chestnut that our movement for public acceptance has not increased and will not increase the number of gay men and lesbians in existence. `There are more of us than there used to be,` historian John D'Elmilio has written. Firmly believing this, I wanted to... argue the morality of teaching kids that gay is OK even if it means that some will join our ranks...."

Indeed. Youth are often attracted to excitement and rebellion. The gay movement is growing.

Minkowitz also argued that the 'born gay' claim is nothing more than a smokescreen: "most of the line about homosex[uality] being one's nature, not a choice, was articulated as a response to brutal repression.... 'We didn't choose this, so don't punish us for it!' One hundred years later, it's time for us to abandon this defensive posture and walk upright on the earth. Maybe you didn't choose to be gay - that's fine. But I did."

When Kinsey (14) asked 1700 homosexuals in the 1940s how they "got that way," only 9% claimed that they were "born gay." In 1970, a similar percentage was recorded for 979 gays in San Francisco.(9) But in 1983, after the gay rights movement started to politicize the issue of homosexual origins, 35% of a random sample of 147 gays(10) said that they were "born that way.

Perhaps those who commit adultery, molest children or practice homosexuality are "born with" unusual biological influences. But there is no hard evidence of this. In fact, it appears that participation in these activities, like drug abuse or any other chosen behavior, is a combination of will and opportunity. No matter how such desires come about, members of society are rightly expected to control their behavior and not endanger others.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

References
1. Schwartz MF & Masters WH The Masters and Johnson treatment program for dissatisfied homosexual men. Amer J Psychiatry 1984:141;173-81.
2.1910 letter to Sandor Ferenczi.
3. Wall Street Journal 4/21/93 A6.
4. Homosexuality and psychiatry, Psychiatric News, Feb. 7,1992, p.3.
5. LeVay S A difference in hypothalamic structure between heterosexual and homosexual men. Science 1991;253:1034-1037.
6.Bailey JM & Pillard RCA genetic study of mate sexual orientation. Arch Gen Psychiatry 1991;48: 1089-1996.
7. Human sexual orientation: the biologic theories reappraised. Arch Gen Psychiatry 1993:50;228-239.
8. King M & McDonald E Homosexuals who are twins: a study of 46 probands. Brit J Psychiatry 1992,160:407-419.
9. Belt AP & Weinberg MS Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1978. /& Hammersmith SK Sexual Preference: Statistical Appendix. Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1981.
10. Cameron P, Cameron K. & Proctor K Effect of homosexuality upon public health and social order. Psychol Rpts, 1989,61,1167-79.
11. Cameron P, Cameron K. & Proctor K. Homosexuals in the Armed Forces, Psychol Repts, 1988,62,211-219.
12. Dixon, JK. The commencement of bisexual activity in swinging married women overage thirty. J Sex Research, 1984,20,71-98.
13.1993, after Broude GJ & Greene SJ Cross cultural codes on twenty sexual attitudes and practices. Ethnology 1976;15;409-430.
14. Gebhard P & Johnson AB The Kinsey data Philadelphia: Saunders, 1979.

Chris,

You are a horror show of nastiness. Did you actually read the paper?

I know you didn't because of the incompetent conclusions you served up on this board. The paper deals with ALL RAPE of GIRLS and BOYS. You are sick and perverted. Get some help. You can't be serous or for real.

Here's the link to read the paper Chris cited.

http://www.icasa.org/uploads/Health_information.pdf

Cameron's paper is incompetent. He only surveyed terminally ill gay men with late-stage full-blown AIDS in hospitals and then INCORRECTLY and INCOMPETENTLY extrapolated his data to encompass ALL gay men. This is indefensible, neglegent quackery.

sw

SW,

Please, I ask you again to read the Medical Consequences of Homosexuality. Do you disagree? These are facts of science.

Do you ascribe to a "religion" or "belief system" that excludes science?

Queers die much earlier than the rest of the general population. Why? Queers engage in very dangerous and life threatening behavior. Duh!!! Why do smokers get cancer on much higher levels than non smokers? B/c smokers engage in very dangerous and life threatening behavior. This is simple logic, but perhaps you are not constrained by the rules of logic and rationality.

SW, you need a serious course in A&P 101. That's Anatomy and Physiology. It's very simple about the function of the rectum. Please do some research and please have an open mind.

Furthermore, your own queer brothers, Kirk and Madsen, said that "sexual orientation is the product of a complex interaction between innate predispositions and environmental factors during childhood and early adolescence."

They then state: we "must say that gays are born that way otherwise a can or worms labeled "moral choices and sin" is opened."

And that is the key. Queers don't like to be called sinners and that their lifestyle is immoral so they must force upon our society that they "are born that way," so the rest of the world will shut up and go away.

Chris, the poblem with your citation -- Sexually abused young males are 'up to 7 times more likely to self-identify as gay or bisexual than peers who had not been abused.'" (1998 study, "Sexual Abuse of Boys," by William C. Holmes, M.D. and Gail B. Slap, M.D.) -- is that it makes a glaringly obviously incorrect assumption that is roundly refuted by Wilson & Rahman's book of 2005 which you have not read, therefore you are ignorant of the superceding information.

You make an incompetent conclusion which is not supported and negates your citation. While a portion of all gay men may be the recipient of abuse it does not follow that ALL gay men are the recipients of sexual abuse. And it certainly does not follow that all gay men are made gay by only the infulence of sexaul abuse.

Go to school. You need Traditional Logic and competent reasoning course work.

sw

Dear Brian,

Re: your post May 17, 2007 2:46 PM.

Thank you for calling me on my misbehavior. It was a gratuitously cheap shot. My bad. Forgive me, please.

Can you understand why I might, though, given the kind of posts made here? That is no excuse at all, but it explains my impertinence.

You actually made my point in your scholarly presentation. It is a pleasure to read cogent, well researched and well organized discourse. Yet, there is a glaringly obvious conclusion in your post that the Lucan authors deal with in Volume Two of The Gospel According to Luke, The Acts of the Apostles. Can you guest where I might go with this?

As Dr. Marcus Borg -- with whom I have studied -- would say a traditional paradigmic approach is not a problem until it becomes too much a stumbling block to an authentic experience of G-d. That is my approach exactly. I am not, nor ever have been a traditionalist. I am solidly within the emergent paradigm of hermeneutic inquiry. This is not to say that the emergent paradigm is "better" than the traditional. I do NOT mean that. Paradigmic value judgments are irrelevant and nonsensical when one realizes that pragmatism is the rule not imperialistic hierarchalism. If the traditional works for you keep it. If it doesn't jettison it and adopt one that provides a wider view.

I use that word with great care. Inquiry is precisely what I mean. Here is the difference between us. Permit me an observation with which you may disagree and know I mean no disrespect to you. You know the answer and that is sufficient for you. I not only do not know the answer, but I invite and welcome the mystery of an inquiry to live my life inside of. For you the point is THE answer. For me the point is a question big enough to never have satisfied.

You view G-d, Jesus and hermeneutics as done, complete and perfect. I view G-d, Jesus and hermeneutics as a great never-ending mystery that continually unfolds -- a perpetually on-going work-in-progress. Yours is a place of destination. Mine is a journey unending.

It is this that divides us. Can we come to some accommodation?

Well, that's why Acts comes to mind because I firmly believe that the bible is a GREAT work of literature, thought, metaphysics, theology and yes, that accursed word, mythology. But I mean mythology in the expansive Campbellian sense.

The passage that speaks volumes here is this: Acts 10:9-40. Simon-Peter's dream of plenty. It is lyric and profound. It speaks to this very unfolding I commend to you. G-d heals all. G-d makes all whole. G-d accepts all. And the extent of enfolding is limited only by humankind's lack of imagination and insufficient understanding, yet allows for this reality and opens new understanding to be "Clean" in the future when in the past it was not.

Do you get my meaning? Do you not see a possibility beyond petty differences that divide and a new awakening of healing that accepts the previously unacceptable -- just as Jesus ministered and the disciples and apostles carried forward?

Just as you stated in your post?

No work of literature is ever "done." Particularly a great human work that attempts communion with the eternal.

Think on it and reflect in G-d.

Truly, G-d Bless you,

sw

SW,

Go back and read the post from 2:29 PM today. There are your citations from your own people no less.

Please go back and read the Medical Consequences of Homosexuality and then get back to me.

Thx

When militant homosexuals attempt to convert school children into accepting and adopting this unnatural lifestyle, I will oppose it, as Rev. Falwell courageously did during his lifetime.

Yeah, real courageous to oppose the Boogey Man, chupacabras, and witches in Salem too!

Sounds like Kevin can give the best directions to his local rest area, and peak times.

Chris,

I'm waiting for you to read the source materials I proved you.

I am waiting for your competent citations.

You have the facts correct. Deal with them.

There is a simple reason why you don't "agree" with how G-d made you and me. You are the one airing your anti-gay rhetoric and hermeneutic discourse.

I am not anti-straight. I love straight people just the way the are and don't want to change them at all. Why do you not love gay people just the way they are and want to change them?

It is very simple, Chris.

You make it complicated so as to avoid the truth.

sw

sw, I can imagine that adopting a homosexual lifestyle is a real pain in the butt. But that is your choice, you have chosen an unnatural sexual orientation. All I can do is pray for sinners and spread the good news. I'm reminded of that old 60's tune - Give God A Chance (Stop The Fisting). Rev. Falwell did not oppose your average run of the mill homosexual minding his own business. He vigorously opposed the militant wing of the homosexual community who attempt to spread their homosexual lifestyle, and all of the diseases that come along with it, to our children. As a Christian, I am forgiving when being criticized and when having insults hurled my way. However, I do stand up for rightousness and confront evil when necessary. When militant homosexuals attempt to convert school children into accepting and adopting this unnatural lifestyle, I will oppose it, as Rev. Falwell courageously did during his lifetime.

Dear SW,

Good to hear from you. I appreciate your understanding that in discussing these sensitive issues I am certainly not intending to harm anyone. For reasons of subject continuity, I would like to continue my response to your post dated 05/16/07 at 5:29 p.m. Before we look at Deuteronomy 25: 11-12, I find it disconcerting that you would insult me, unintentionally perhaps, by saying that "it's interesting that the gay guy actually recalls a biblical passage [I] don't." There are plenty of people who know more about the Bible than I do, some black, some white, some Indian, some Jewish, some male, some female, etc. It's no insult to my intelligence that a gay man found a specific verse in the Bible about which I had previously read and recently forgotten. Does that fact now somehow now discredit me and my attempts to submit a credible rebuttal? I think not. However, you probably did not intend for that comment to be a slight "jab," but nonetheless, I took it as such. Forgive me, if I have misrepresented your thoughts.

Regarding the specific passage in Deuteronomy, let us approach it on a micro-level of interpretation. Permit me to quote Matthew Henry's Commentary, Volume 1, "A law for the punishing of an immodest woman. The woman that by the foregoing law was to complain against her husband's brother for not marrying her, and to spit in his face before the elders, needed a good measure of assurance; but, lest the confidence which that law supported should grow to an excess unbecoming the sex, here is a very severe but just law to punish impudence and immodesty. The instance of it is confessedly scandalous to the highest degree. A woman could not do it unless she were perfectly lost to all virtue and honour. Now if the doing of it in a passion, and with such a good intention, was to be so severly punished, much more when it was done wantonly and in lust." Morever, could it be that such a prohibition was put into place to protect the very organs of reproduction. Failure to understand the reasoning for this to be so is failure to understand the context in which such a command was given. Oh that modern interpreters of the Scriptures had a least a modicum of understanding about Old Testament Jewish culture and society, which is radically different, and sometimes seemingly barbaric, when compared to our own.

Now, on a macro-level. These laws were written by and given to the Israelites by a Holy, Sovereign, Perfectly Pure God. Whatever the reason, as a cultural mandate, or as one to be followed throughout all generations, they were to be followed and obeyed, and disobedience was meant with punishment. As we look at the New Testament, we realize that the law was given to show the need for Christ as our substitutionary atonement, the propitiation for our sins. What the law was powerless to do in that it could not gain our favor and merit with God, Christ did on our behalf by meeting the just demands of the law, and by taking on the just punishement of our breaking those laws. Let us look at the instance of the adulterous woman in John 8: 1-11. The scribes and Pharisess wanted to stone her for her adultery, as was commanded in the Law of Moses. Yet, what was the Lord's response? "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Now, were one to stop there, one could justify just about any sin, including homosexuality (the semantics of which shall be discussed later.) However, the Lord continues, "Neither do I condemn you; GO AND SIN NO MORE." Why did the Lord tell her to go and "sin no more," if adultery was now permissible? Morever, the Lord through the apostle Paul says in Romans 6: 1-2, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!"

The specifics of the Mosaic Law have been fulfilled in the person and work of Jesus Christ, and certain cultural mandates, applicable only to the Israelites in the Old Testament covenant community, have been removed, particularly those regarding ceremonial law and certain cultural distinctions between the sexes. Yet, there remains Old Testament commands, namely those found in the Decalogue, that cannot simply be dismissed due to being found in the Old Testament. Contrary to popular thought, the prohibition of homosexuality is indeed found in the New Testament. One may argue the point that Christ never actually spoke against homosexuality, yet Christ also never spoke on rape or child pornography. Does this mean that these acts are therefore permissible? I think not.

You are correct when you say that "ALL Americans are granted Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. The Bill of Rights is for ALL Americans." No disputing you there. However, you have elevated the Bill of Rights to the place of defining moral conduct and standards to the whole of America. Why do you exalt this as the objective moral standard and not some other text, namely the Bible. Moreover, define "pursuit of happiness." What if my definition of "pursuit of happiness" differs from yours? What if it makes me "happy" to punch you square in the face, or what if I get a lot of delight out of blowing up buildings? You will probably say, "it's wrong because it involves hurting other people." Question: To what objective moral standard outside of yourself or you appealing when you say that "hurting other people" is wrong?

SW, my time is cut short by commitments at work. Please expect more to follow.

Best,

Brian

P.S. Really enjoying the conversation!

Chris= DEFINITELY gay!

Sorry, SW, but you are wrong, yet again.

Now, try to settle down. I know you are angry about dying early, but we can't change that now. You are way too far down the road.

Gays are NOT born that way! THIS IS FACT!

"Sexually abused young males are 'up to 7 times more likely to self-identify as gay or bisexual than peers who had not been abused.'" (1998 study, "Sexual Abuse of Boys," by William C. Holmes, M.D. and Gail B. Slap, M.D.)

Even queer activists Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen said that "sexual orientation is the product of a complex interaction between innate predispositions and environmental factors during childhood and early adolescence."

Face the facts, gay is not normal. It is a rectum. Do we need to go back to A&P 101? Please go back and read the Medical Consequences of Homosexuality.

If you are angry, you have the right to be. AIDS does discriminate. Queers get AIDS more frequently than monogamous heteros. Duh, do the math.

Even Kirk and Madsen said that they must say that gays are born that way otherwise a can or worms labeled "moral choices and sin" is opened.

And that is the key. Queers don't like to be called sinners and that their lifestyle is immoral so they must force upon our society that they "are born that way," so the rest of the world will shut up and go away.

Well, not so fast. Queers are not born that way. This is fact and "settled science." All you have are liberal, left-wing talking points that have been debunked.

Kevin:
sw, I forgive you for your name calling. The best way to honor the life of Rev. Falwell is to rise above the petty name calling. sw, I do care about you, and do pray for you. My prayer is that you will be bathed in the love of Christ, instead of sullying yourself with another urine shower. When anyone finds themselves 3 standard deviations from the norm, they will either find themselves in extraordinary good fortune, or in a miserable condition. In sexual practices, finding oneself that far in the fringes from the norm, puts one in the same range as people who have sex with animals and corpses. And I pray for all who willingly put themselves their, to make that choice. There is an alternative: prayer and repentance.

Posted May 17, 2007 1:55 PM

---------------------------------------------

It's almost too easy, Kev.

Your thin veneer of superiority is your admission of profound insecurity. I didn't call you names. I stated a fact. You're the one obsessed with gay sex. You're the one consumed with righteous fervor. What is the source of that? Examine it for yourself.

I am not concerend or obseesed with my sexual identity. It's a very small part of me. I love it but I am not consumed with attention for it. I am happy. I am content and complete with who I am. I don't care at all what you think.

Why do you care so much about what other's think and do? What are you afraid of? Why are you so afraid of gay persons?

Take a hard look. By the way. G-d love me just the way she made me. Jesus loves me and I love Jesus. I am saved and we'll talk all about this in Heaven if we meet there. God bless.

sw

Dear Chris,

It's fascinating to me that your off-the-cuff unexamined assumption about someone you have never met and do not know is that they are unhappy because you assocaite that with the characteristic of their sexual identity and then you take a gleeful sense of superiority in lording your "correct" orientation, as though it were a source of accomplishment. You actually sound happy about the prospect of someone else’s misery -- quite sadistic.

This is supremely messed up.

It makes perfectly logical sense judging from the content of your post -- yet it is profoundly self-aggrandizing and self-absorbed.

I have always had a sense of loosing oneself-possession in the experience of the Christ. Isn't it interesting that you aggrandize disproportionately your own importance in the face of a supposed faith in the Christ.

That's a reliable test of ones faith. The ability to give up ones selfish point of view and embrace the all of existence by which the Christ is but one of many pathways.

No one chooses their characteristics. You didn't choose your natural hair color. You didn't choose your body type. You didn't choose your eye color. You didn't choose your handedness. You didn't even choose your sex.

And you didn't choose your sexual identity.

No one does. That is the arrogance and Achilles' heal of your attitudes.

What are you so afraid of? And why are you so afraid?

sw

sw, I forgive you for your name calling. The best way to honor the life of Rev. Falwell is to rise above the petty name calling. sw, I do care about you, and do pray for you. My prayer is that you will be bathed in the love of Christ, instead of sullying yourself with another urine shower. When anyone finds themselves 3 standard deviations from the norm, they will either find themselves in extraordinary good fortune, or in a miserable condition. In sexual practices, finding oneself that far in the fringes from the norm, puts one in the same range as people who have sex with animals and corpses. And I pray for all who willingly put themselves their, to make that choice. There is an alternative: prayer and repentance.

Chris, you are SO deluded in your post of May 17, 2007 1:17 PM

Read Dr.'s Glenn Wilson & Qazi Rahman's book, "Born Gay: The Psychobiology of Sexual Orientation" c2005.

Read Dr. Mohler's own post of last month where he quotes Wilson & Rahman and states his confirmation of this fact. Mohler goes on to call for the Baptist Convention to align itself to this reality. Read it for yourself.

You provided no authentic or credible citations for your claims. Typical. Yet, I proved mine.

sw

Welcome back Chris:

I hope you didn't mind me assigning you a gender. It was just too tempting, too easy, and too funny.

Dwight Chamberlain writes:
"WHERE IS DR. FALWELL NOW???? DO YOU KNOW?

He woke up Tuesday morning like every other day and never expected it would be his last.

What about YOU? When will YOU die? Today? Tomorrow? This Year?

Please ask yourself this question "WHEN I DIE, WILL I GO TO HEAVEN?"
And then ponder the answer. PLEASE, PLEASE ponder the answer."

Ah, the self-centered fears of Xianity in all their ugly glory!

There's no god and no heaven, so your question amounts to little more than childish ravings. Are you afraid of the dark? Scared of the supernatural bogeyman with the Jewish name? Looking forward to the day when all those mean non-believers GET THEIRS? Poor baby!

Living your life in fear and ignorance, and for what? For the promise of MATERIAL REWARDS in some afterlife of GUTLESS servitude to a god who no more deserves worship than any other genocidal halfwit. An eternity living in a big house in god's mansion-filled trailer park, bowing down to the blood-soaked feet of a has-been/never-was god who would get clobbered in an intellectual and moral battle with a 21st-century 8th grader.

You're welcome to it. Too bad it's all a piss-poor fantasy.

Kev! You are SO gay!

You're totally OBSESSED with anal sex. And rape and violent abuse. You need counseling for your problems, my friend.

Cameron's paper is bogus so of course since it affirms your bigotry regardless of accuracy or integrity you cleave to it like your mother's teat, don't you.

I pity your black soul. Where is Christ's cleansing love inside of you?

sw

Oh, by the way, gays are not born that way.

That has been debunked.

There is absolutely, I repeat, absolutely no credible scientific evidence that supports that gays are born that way.

They may have been influenced in childhood by something, but not born that way.

That is a myth.

If you are angry as a gay man, I don't blame you.

Your life is probably miserable isn't it. You are in bondage to your base desires and your life has no meaning. And to top it off, you will probably die early. I would be angry too if I were you.

Don't despair, SW, there is hope. Your sins can be forgiven. God really does care for you.

I see how this works, Strangely Lubed. If the facts are against you, then say it's lies. Very smart.

And if someone disagrees with homosexuality, then they are secretly homo, right?

So using your twisted logic, or should I say, lack of logic, no one could ever argue against that position.

Question, are you "secretly" a believer in Deity and maybe really hetero?

Kev, you are so gay!

You are just OBSESSED with anal sex, aren't you. As well as rape and violence. You need councelling my friend. Cameron's paper is crap and you're full of it.

Anon, great link. Read that one, Kev.

sw

Kev, you as so gay!

You are just OBSESSED with anal sex, aren't you. As well as rape and violence. You need councelling my friend. Cameron's paper is crap and you're full of it.

Anon, great link. Read that one, Kev.

sw

Ponder this...... Hell-O it anit like Jell-O ,
It aint just a greetin-
and it aint for the squeemish- if it IS a realit-o
If you believe in G-O-D -O
or even if Ya Dont, you might consider that this Man Jeesio- He stood for sumpin. Was it good?
What waz it? Is it worth invezetigatin?

U decide?

Falwell used his own mind to investigate the teaching of Christ and to decidse on God's reality.

Have U done that much for your self?

Instead of using the internet to espouse the justifications of why U hate Falwell or other religious persons, U might want to ponder this.....
......
.....
.....

Hell might be a reality! If it is, it might just be "absence from the Father" That being...absence from God.

Falwell can pretend that his anti-gay rhetoric didn't produce violence but it just isn't true.

Here's the truth of what is produced by anti-gay attitudes in churches that you find so sanctified. I find it sanctimonious.

New York Times today:

"Gay Youths Find Place to Call Home in Specialty Shelters"

by Ian Urbina

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/17/us/17homeless.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1179417633-Lt7wjfVsIjYeuGXaPdBZ7Q

That parents would treat their children this way is sickening and evil. THIS is an abomination.

You Fundamentalist Hypocrits will meet your maker and answer for this evil you have done.

Innocent blood is on your hands.

Chris, thank you for giving us the poop on the secular dangers of homosexuality. Rev. Falwell committed himself to helping stop the spread of HIV AIDS through educational awareness. This is a great example of Rev. Falwell hating the sin, but loving the sinner. His message was simple. The quickest, easiest, and most cost effective way of stemming the rising tide of HIV AIDS was to encourage homosexuals to stop humping each others butts.

Dwight I LOVE your post of Posted May 17, 2007 10:49 AM.

I can agree to that. I will not judge you for lasting after hot gals and you don't judge me for lusting after hot guys.

But allow me to be fully human and spiritual as you are allowed to be. That's all I am asking for. Stop damaging me for being true to myself and honest about it. G-d made me the way I am as G-d made YOU the way you are. In that we have commonality.

Who cares if gay guys and gals commit to each other? At least they won't be damaging themselves and their wives or husbands in loveless shams of inauthentic marriages -- as well as their children. Let this go. What difference does this make to you if you are straight? That's my point.

sw

Dear Brian,

I appreciate your honest effort in understanding these issues. I would call you a friend if I know you personally just for your struggle to understand difficult hermeneutic issues reconciling compassion with obedience.

The issue I raised is singularly important. The word "homosexuality" with all of its charged connotations did not exist until the early 19th century. By definition the Hebraic texts connect be conflated with the contemporary meanings and connotations. The very word cannot be used within their original meaning. At the time Leviticus was written the Priestly authors were reconstructing a new Jewish identity Post-Babylonian Exile -- hence forth I will refer to "Post-Exilic" period. The period was traumatic and it was only after the Persian conquest of Babylon that the exiled Jews were allowed to return home. If you are going to use these 2 verses to condemn gays then you had better be prepared to adhere to ALL the holiness code or you are hypocritical. You are attempting to hold me to a higher standard than you are willing to assume for yourself.

Recall that the Matthean authors attributed to Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount: "Remove the beam from thine own eye before attempting to smite the mote from your neighbor's."

This is the hypocrisy of Fundamentalism of any stripe. Do as "I" say not as I do.

Nothing at all is said about a caring love between two men other than in I Samuel between David and Jonathon. This is a matter of love not sex. I think it is so interesting that supposedly "straight" men are so consumed with gay sex. The conversation is always turned to this false argument. Who the majority of men love is to the opposite sex, but a minority expression is present too. It also shows up all through nature. Read Bruce Bagemihl's "Biological Exuberance" c1999 & Joan Roughgarden's "Evolution's Rainbow" c 2004 and be much edified.

Gay men are born gay. Straight men are born straight. For men sexual identity is fixed well before birth. Dr. Mohler made this very clear and said that the Evangelical Churches need to prepare themselves for this reality.

G-d made us who we are. Your inerrant G-d has made a big series of mistakes throughout all of recorded history because it shows up as you rightfully observe. That's a lot of cumulative errors throughout the ages! Being gay is not a "lifestyle choice". That's the biggest lie that has been perpetrated. And the lie has not been acknowledged or atoned. I stand for the truth. I will tell the truth no matter its unpopularity.

Don't you think it's interesting that the gay guy actually recalls a biblical passage you don't? Search for it. Here's a hint. The latter 3rd of Deuteronomy deals with matters of husbands and wives. It'll do you good to refresh your memory of ALL the things in our contemporary society that have nothing whatever to do with this ancient text. We dismiss much of it that as irrelevant -- so too hermeneutically justified prejudice against gay persons is on the way out the door.

Admit it. It is this that angers so many, isn't it? The same way white males were angered by the abolition of slavery and the granting of full equal rights to black persons.

When will Jesus' call to embrace all persons in love be realized? Perhaps that is the second coming we await and not a magical reappearance of a long-dead corpse.

sw

Strangely Warmed, what's your point really?

Who cares if its "normal" or not? It's just as normal for me to lust after a beautiful woman who walks by me on the street. But that is also condemned in scripture. I need to repent when I do that and purpose to stop doing it.

So SIN is SIN. Anger, lust, theft, homosexuality, and on and on. We're ALL guilty. It's black and white. God condemns it in scripture and the only reason we have any hope of his forgiveness is Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

Thankfully God is merciful enough to forgive ALL our sins not just the ones some people find offensive and others find OK.

http://www.matthiasmedia.com.au/2wtl/2wtlonline.asp

Chris' post of Posted May 17, 2007 12:10 AM.
Re: Medical Consequences of What Homosexuals Do
by Paul Cameron, Ph.D.

-------------------------------------

There is a minor little problem with your citation of Cameron.

It is completely bogus and is only supported by Evangelical Christian colleges and NARTH -- who have a vested conflict of interest in supressing comprhensive empirical evidence and competent scientific inquiry. Cameron's paper has been round discredited. Your use of it is dishonest and incompetent scholarship.

All of his conculsions and statistics were derived from terminally ill later-stage full-blown AIDS patients in hospitals prior to death. It is a false sampling. It is bogus.

Anyone who would cite it is profoundly delusded and ignorant of the facts.

I weep for your ignorance and obdurate hostility.

Now let me give you two unimpeachable sources: the American Phychiatric Association & the American Psychological Association.

Read their position papers from 1973 onward.

sw

WHERE IS DR. FALWELL NOW???? DO YOU KNOW?

He woke up Tuesday morning like every other day and never expected it would be his last.

What about YOU? When will YOU die? Today? Tomorrow? This Year?

Please ask yourself this question "WHEN I DIE, WILL I GO TO HEAVEN?"
And then ponder the answer. PLEASE, PLEASE ponder the answer.

God has provided a way for EVERYONE to go to Heaven. But.....

We must realize we've sinned against him (we ALL have) and that Jesus' sacrifice paid for those sins. That's all. God is gracious to ALL who believe that.

PLEASE CONSIDER THIS NOW. You do not know when your heart will beat it's last beat.

A person may not agree with Falwell, but he DID love people. Enjoying the engaging conversation of other people does not necessitate agreement with other's opinions.

A person may not agree with Falwell, but he DID love people. Enjoying the engaging conversation of other people does not necessitate agreement with other's opinions.

Chris:
"Homosexual Activities
oral/penile
anal/penile
oral/anal
urine sex
fisting/toys
fecal sex-eating
enemas
torture sex
public/orgy sex
sex with minors"

You do realize that heterosexuals who do all of these things as well, don't you?
As for number of partners, there are plenty of promiscuous heterosexuals of both genders. It's not limited to gay men. Unprotected sex with multiple partners is not a good idea, regardless of the genders or orifices involved.
Contact with infected body fluids as a disesase vector is not limited to HIV - it's one of many viruses that can be transmitted that way, including those that cause the common cold. I'm not saying that HIV is no worse than a cold, only that it's just as readily transmitted by infected straight people as infected gay men.

Jerry Falwell was not afraid to stand up for the Bible and say it like it is. To him, it was far more important to tell people what they did not want to hear, and thereby hinting them towards redemption, than telling them what they wanted to hear (tickling their ears), which always causes them to fall further into error, and apostasy.

What is more important? Satisfy our vices and justifying them, knowing in our conscience that it is wrong, and spend an eternity in hell, or hear the truth of Jesus Christ and being free?

For Jerry Falwell, the message of the Bible was for more important then being hated by men. Why chosing to be hated my men if the message of the Bible is wrong?

Jerry Falwell was "politically incorrect" in a world of "political correctness". Political correctness has always, is, and will always send people to that horrible place of torment, which is HELL! Political correctness is the gangrene of mankind!

You're right, Anoymous Chris, I've given you far more than deserved. Arguing with a fool makes me foolish!

I guess a man will be known by the enemies he makes. I dont think Jerry had anyone he deemed an enemy. But all those who hate The Master and His teachings will of course hate The Master's servants.
God bless you Jerry. You could have safely holed up in your pastor office and let others get out there and "fight the fight". But you couldnt do that.

The sick hate-filled statements left here on this blog would in a perfect world been deleted or purged. I guess Dr Mohler allows for dissent much moreso than would say a leftoid humanist like Rosie O'Donnell.
Prayers for you Macel Falwell and for your grieving children as well. I read "Strength for The Journey" a long time ago and I was deeply impressed.
Israel has lost a great defender!
Well done thy good and faithful servant!

"Better to remain silent than thought a fool..."

Too late, Danny

Comments from the Peanut Gallery are not actually converational contributions. Better to remain silent and thought a fool...

However, I applaud your attempt at discourse. "A" for effort, and Anonymous...I guess.

Anonymous (Probably Ms. Chris, inventing personal support),

This was my argument, and it was clearly separated out from my inaccurate ad hominem attack...for which I apologize to Chris.

Furthermore, the whole 500 partners for gay people, and 7 for straight, is A) just stupid, and B) Going by the source cited(Bell and Wineburg), it is so dated.

1978 is before the AIDS epidemic. It was gay people in the 80's and 90's that fought to bring AIDS education to the public as a way of assisting in combatting the disease. Beacuse of that, anyone with any awareness knows it does not discriminate, and can be prevented...and is not a curse from God against gays.

Though I don't deny that gay men probably have more partners over a lifetime, straight men would have as many sex partners as a gay man anyway...if straight women would let them!

And, if you want to be all "Christian" about it, these straight men should have less than seven partners. They surely don't have on average 7 wives in a lifetime...I'm so sure!

The orginal statements made by Chris above are still crap in their own right.

And my (incorrect) accusation is not unfounded, just misplaced.

Danny, please get some help instead of publicly trying to redeem your own internal struggle.

What trap?

You don't even have a name, Anonymous. How clever are you?

All the "rest area" and "marrying an innocent woman" comments are now not accurate, fine. But a woman can be gay, and in the closet, and act out as a homophobe as a result.

And the cited facts are still ridiculous crap.

My error for assuming gender...but, isn't androgeny fun?!

Chris is a female. Poor Danny you so carefully set your trap and all for naught. Um what was your argument again?

Alright, Chris is gay. I didn't want to call him on it, but he is exactly the "do what you're supposed to do" closet case who selfishly marries an innocent woman, has kids, the goes to the rest area to "vent" the sexual frustration that results. You know, the kind that spreads all the rumors about homos at where? ...the rest area! Gives everyone else a bad name.

Furthermore, the whole 500 partners for gay people, and 7 for straight, is A) just stupid, and B) Going by the source cited(Bell and Wineburg), it is so dated.

1978 is before the AIDS epidemic. It was gay people in the 80's and 90's that fought to bring AIDS education to the public as a way of assisting in combatting the disease. Beacuse of that, anyone with any awareness knows it does not discriminate, and can be prevented...and is not a curse from God against gays.

Though I don't deny that gay men probably have more partners over a lifetime, straight men would have as many sex partners as a gay man anyway...if straight women would let them!

And, if you want to be all "Christian" about it, these straight men should have less than seven partners. They surely don't have on average 7 wives in a lifetime...I'm so sure!

Chris, please get some help instead of publicly trying to redeem your own internal struggle.

Lucas DeFalco wrote-
"As for obnoxious atheists, I haven't really run into any (yet). I know quite a few atheists/agnostics and they have generally been respectful and civil, but maybe that's just the nature of who I associate with."

I've met quite a few obnoxious athiests. Consider yourself lucky.

Fascinating. I read every word of it.

Medical Consequences of What Homosexuals Do

by Paul Cameron, Ph.D.

Throughout history, all civilizations had all major religions have condemned homosexuality.1 In the American colonies, homosexual acts were a capital offense. Thomas Jefferson said that homosexuality "should be punished, if a man, by castration, if a woman, by cutting through the cartilage of her nose a hole of one-half inch in diameter as least.2 Until 1961 homosexual acts were illegal throughout America.

Gays claim that the "prevailing attitude toward homosexuals in the U.S. and many other countries is revulsion and hostility....for acts and desires not harmful to anyone."3 The American Psychological Association and the American Public Health Association assured the U.S. Supreme Court in 1986 that "no significant data show that engaging in...oral and anal sex, results in mental or physical dysfunction."4

What Homosexuals Do
The major surveys on homosexual behavior are summarized below. Two things stand out 1) homosexuals behave similarly world-over, and 2) as Harvard Medical Professor, Dr. William Haseltine,33 noted in 1993, the "changes in sexual behavior that have been reported to have occurred in some groups have proved, for the most part, to be transient. For example, bath houses and sex clubs in many cities have either reopened or were never closed."

Homosexual Activities (in %)
US16 US13 US US18 Denmark20 US19 London27 Sydney/London26 Canada25
1940s1977 83/84 1983 1984 1983 1985 1991
ever ever ever in yr in yr in mo in mo last 6mo
oral/penile 83 99 100/99 99 86 67
anal/penile 68 91 93/98 95 92 95 100
oral/anal 59 83 92/92 63 69 89 55/65
urine sex 10 23 29/
fisting/toys 22 41/47 34
fecal sex-eating 4 8
enemas 11 11
torture sex 22 37 37
public/orgy sex 61 76 88
sex with minors 37 23 24/
ORAL SEX Homosexuals fellate almost all of their sexual contacts (and ingest semen from about half of these). Semen contains many of the germs carried in the blood. Because of this, gays who practice oral sex verge on consuming raw human blood, with all its medical risks. Since the penis often has tiny lesions (and often will have been in unsanitary places such as a rectum), individuals so involved may become infected with hepatitis A or gonorrhea (and even HIV and hepatitis B). Since many contacts occur between strangers (70% of gays estimated that they had had sex only once with over half of their partners17,27), and gays average somewhere between 106 and 1105 different partners/year, the potential for infection is considerable.

RECTAL SEX Surveys indicate that about 90% of gays have engaged in rectal intercourse, and about two-thirds do it regularly. In a 6-month long study of daily sexual diaries,3 gays averaged 110 sex partners and 68 rectal encounters a year.

Rectal sex is dangerous. During rectal intercourse the rectum becomes a mixing bowl for 1) saliva and its germs and/or an artificial lubricant, 2) the recipient's own feces, 3) whatever germs, infections or substances the penis has on it, and 4) the seminal fluid of the inserter. Since sperm readily penetrate the rectal wall (which is only one cell thick) causing immunologic damage, and tearing or bruising of the anal wall is very common during anal/penile sex, these substances gain almost direct access to the blood stream. Unlike heterosexual intercourse (in which sperm cannot penetrate the multilayered vagina and no feces are present),7 rectal intercourse is probably the most sexually efficient way to spread hepatitis B, HIV syphilis and a host of other blood-borne diseases.

Tearing or ripping of the anal wall is especially likely with "fisting," where the hand and arm is inserted into the rectum. It is also common when "toys" are employed (homosexual lingo for objects which are inserted into the rectum--bottles, carrots, even gerbils8). The risk of contamination and/or having to wear a colostomy bag from such "sport" is very real. Fisting was apparently so rare in Kinsey's time that he didn't think to talk about it. By 1977, well over a third of gays admitted to doing it. The rectum was not designed to accommodate the fist, and those who do so can find themselves consigned to diapers for life.

FECAL SEX About 80% of gays (see Table) admit to licking and/or inserting their tongues into the anus of partners and thus ingesting medically significant amounts of feces. Those who eat or wallow in it are probably at even greater risk. In the diary study,5 70% of the gays had engaged in this activity--half regularly over 6 months. Result? --the "annual incidence of hepatitis A in...homosexual men was 22 percent, whereas no heterosexual men acquired hepatitis A." In 1992,26 it was noted that the proportion of London gays engaging in oral/anal sex had not declined since 1984.

While the body has defenses against fecal germs, exposure to the fecal discharge of dozens of strangers each year is extremely unhealthy. Ingestion of human waste is the major route of contracting hepatitis A and the enteric parasites collectively known as the Gay Bowel Syndrome. Consumption of feces has also been implicated in the transmission of typhoid fever,9 herpes, and cancer.27 About 10% of gays have eaten or played with [e.g., enemas, wallowing in feces]. The San Francisco Department of Public Health saw 75,000 patients per year, of whom 70 to 80 per cent are homosexual men....An average of 10 per cent of all patients and asymptomatic contacts reported...because of positive fecal samples or cultures for amoeba, giardia, and shigella infections were employed as food handlers in public establishments; almost 5 per cent of those with hepatitis A were similarly employed."10 In 1976, a rare airborne scarlet fever broke out among gays and just missed sweeping through San Francisco.10 The U.S. Centers for Disease Control reported that 29% of the hepatitis A cases in Denver, 66% in New York, 50% in San Francisco, 56% in Toronto, 42% in Montreal and 26% in Melbourne in the first six months of 1991 were among gays.11 A 1982 study "suggested that some transmission from the homosexual group to the general population may have occurred."12

URINE SEX About 10% of Kinsey's gays reported having engaged in "golden showers" [drinking or being splashed with urine]. In the largest survey of gays ever conducted,13 23% admitted to urine-sex. In the largest random survey of gays,6 29% reported urine-sex. In a San Francisco study of 655 gays,14 only 24% claimed to have been monogamous in the past year. Of these monogamous gays, 5% drank urine, 7% practiced "fisting," 33% ingested feces via anal/oral contact, 53% swallowed semen, and 59% received semen in their rectum during the previous month.

OTHER GAY SEX PRACTICES
SADOMASOCHISM as the Table indicates, a large minority of gays engage in torture for sexual fun. Sex with minors 25% of white gays17 admitted to sex with boys 16 or younger as adults. In a 9-state study,30 33% of the 181 male, and 22% of the 18 female teachers caught molesting students did so homosexually (though less than 3% of men and 2% of women engage in homosexuality31). Depending on the study, the percent of gays reporting sex in public restrooms ranged from 14%16 to 41%13 to 66%,6 9%16, 60%13 and 67%5 reported sex in gay baths; 64%16 and 90%18 said that they used illegal drugs.

Fear of AIDS may have reduced the volume of gay sex partners, but the numbers are prodigious by any standard. Morin15 reported that 824 gays had lowered their sex-rate from 70 different partners/yr. in 1982 to 50/yr. by 1984. McKusick14 reported declines from 76/yr. to 47/yr. in 1985. In Spain32 the average was 42/yr. in 1989.

Medical Consequences of Homosexual Sex
Death and disease accompany promiscuous and unsanitary sexual activity. 70%25 to 78%x,13 of gays reported having had a sexually transmitted disease. The proportion with intestinal parasites (worms, flukes, amoeba) ranged from 25%18 to 39%19 to 59%.20 As of 1992, 83% of U.S. AIDS in whites had occurred in gays.21 The Seattle sexual diary study3? reported that gays had, on a yearly average:

fellated 108 men and swallowed semen from 48;
exchanged saliva with 96;
experienced 68 penile penetrations of the anus; and
ingested fecal material from 19.
No wonder 10% came down with hepatitis B and 7% contracted hepatitis A during the 6-month study.

Effects on the Lifespan
Smokers and drug addicts don't live as long as non-smokers or non-addicts, so we consider smoking and narcotics abuse harmful. The typical life-span of homosexuals suggests that their activities are more destructive than smoking nd as dangerous as drugs.

Obituaries numbering 6,516 from 16 U.S. homosexual journals over the past 12 years were compared to a large sample of obituaries from regular newspapers.23 The obituaries from the regular newspapers were similar to U.S. averages for longevity; the medium age of death of married men was 75, and 80% of them died old (age 65 or older). For unmarried or divorced men the median age of death was 57, and 32% of them died old. Married women averaged age 79 at death; 85% died old. Unmarried and divorced women averaged age 71, and 60% of them died old.

The median age of death for homosexuals, however, was virtually the same nationwide--and, overall, less than 2% survived to old age. If AIDS was the cause of death, the median age was 39. For the 829 gays who died of something other than AIDS, the median age of death was 42, and 9% died old. The 163 lesbians had a median age of death of 44, and 20% died old.

Two and eight-tenths percent (2.8%) of gays died violently. They were 116 times more apt to be murdered; 24 times more apt to commit suicide; and had a traffic-accident death-rate 18 times the rate of comparably-aged white males. Heart attacks, cancer and liver failure were exceptionally common. Twenty percent of lesbians died of murder, suicide, or accident--a rate 487 times higher than that of white females aged 25-44. The age distribution of samples of homosexuals in the scientific literature from 1989 to 1992 suggests a similarly shortened life-span.

The Gay Legacy
Homosexuals rode into the dawn of sexual freedom and returned with a plague that gives every indication of destroying most of them. Those who treat AIDS patients are at great risk, not only from HIV infection, which as of 1992 involved over 100 health care workers,21 but also from TB and new strains of other diseases.24 Those who are housed with AIDS patients are also at risk.24 Those who are housed with AIDS patients are also at risk.24 Dr. Max Essex, chair of the Harvard AIDS Institute, warned congress in 1992 that "AIDS has already led to other kinds of dangerous epidemics...If AIDS is not eliminated, other new lethal microbes will emerge, and neither safe sex nor drug free practices will prevent them."28 At least 8, and perhaps as many as 30 29 patients had been infected with HIV by health care workers as of 1992.

The Biological Swapmeet
The typical sexual practices of homosexuals are a medical horror story --imagine exchanging saliva, feces, semen and/or blood with dozens of different men each year. Imagine drinking urine, ingesting feces and experiencing rectal trauma on a regular basis. Often these encounters occur while the participants are drunk, high, and/or in an orgy setting. Further, many of them occur in extremely unsanitary places (bathrooms, dirty peep shows), or, because homosexuals travel so frequently, in other parts of the world.

Every year, a quarter or more of homosexuals visit another country.20 Fresh American germs get taken to Europe, Africa and Asia. And fresh pathogens from these continents come here. Foreign homosexuals regularly visit the U.S. and participate in this biological swapmeet.

The Pattern of Infection
Unfortunately the danger of these exchanges does not merely affect homosexuals. Travelers carried so many tropical diseases to New York City that it had to institute a tropical disease center, and gays carried HIV from New York City to the rest of the world.27 Most of the 6,349 Americans who got AIDS from contaminated blood as of 1992, received it from homosexuals and most of the women in California who got AIDS through heterosexual activity got it from men who engaged in homosexual behavior.23 The rare form of airborne scarlet fever that stalked San Francisco in 1976 also started among homosexuals.10

Genuine Compassion
Society is legitimately concerned with health risks-- they impact our taxes and everyone's chances of illness and injury. Because we care about them, smokers are discouraged from smoking by higher insurance premiums, taxes on cigarettes and bans against smoking in public. These social pressures cause many to quit. They likewise encourage non-smokers to stay non-smokers.

Homosexuals are sexually troubled people engaging in dangerous activities. Because we care about them and those tempted to join them, it is important that we neither encourage nor legitimize such a destructive lifestyle.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

References
1. Karlen A. SEXUALITY And HOMOSEXUALITY. NY Norton, 1971.

2. Pines B. BACK TO BASICS. NY Morrow, 1982, p. 211.

3. Weinberg G. SOCIETY AND THE HEALTHY HOMOSEXUAL. NY St. Martin's, 1972, preface.

4. Amici curiae brief, in Bowers v. Hardwick, 1986.

5. Corey L. & Holmes, K.K. Sexual transmission of Hepatitis A in homosexual men. "New England Journal of Medicine," 1980302435- 38.

6. Cameron P et al Sexual orientation and sexually transmitted disease. "Nebraska Medical Journal," 198570292-99; Effect of homosexuality upon public health and social order "Psychological Reports," 1989, 64, 1167-79.

7. Manligit, G.W. et al Chronic immune stimulation by sperm alloan- tigens. "Journal of the American Medical Association," 1984251 237-38.

8. Cecil Adams, "The Straight Dope," THE READER (Chicago, 3/28/86) [Adams writes authoritatively on counter-culture material, his column is carried in many alternative newspapers across the U.S. and Canada].

9. Dritz, S. & Braff. Sexually transmitted typhoid fever. "New England Journal of Medicine," 19772961359-60.

10. Dritz, S. Medical aspects of homosexuality. "New England Journal of Medicine," 1980302463-4.

11. CDC Hepatitis A among homosexual men --United States, Canada, and Australia. MMWR 199241155-64.

12. Christenson B. et al. An epidemic outbreak of hepatitis A among homosexual men in Stockholm, "American Journal of Epidemiology," 1982115599-607.

13. Jay, K. & Young, A. THE GAY REPORT. NY Summit, 1979.

14. McKusick, L. et al AIDS and sexual behaviors reported by gay men in San Francisco, "American Journal of Public Health," 1985 75493- 96.

15. USA Today 11/21/84.

16. Gebhard, P. & Johnson, A. THE KINSEY DATA. NY Saunders, 1979.

17. Bell, A. & Weinberg, M. HOMOSEXUALITIES. NY Simon & Schuster, 1978.

18. Jaffee, H. et al. National case-control study of Kaposi's sarcoma. "Annals Of Internal Medicine," 198399145-51.

19. Quinn, T. C. et al. The polymicrobial origin of intestinal infection in homosexual men. "New England Journal of Medicine," 1983309576-82.

20. Biggar, R. J. Low T-lymphocyte ratios in homosexual men. "Journal Of The American Medical Association," 19842511441-46; "Wall Street Journal," 7/18/91, B1.

21. CDC HIV/AIDS SURVEILLANCE, February 1993.

22. Chu, S. et al. AIDS in bisexual men in the U.S. "American Journal Of Public Health," 199282220-24.

23. Cameron, P., Playfair, W. & Wellum, S. The lifespan of homo- sexuals. Paper presented at Eastern Psychological Association Convention, April 17, 1993.

24. Dooley, W.W. et al. Nosocomial transmission of tuberculosis in a hospital unit for HIV-invected patients. "Journal of the American Medical Association," 19922672632-35.

25. Schechter, M.T. et al. Changes in sexual behavior and fear of AIDS. "Lancet," 198411293.

26. Elford, J. et al. Kaposi's sarcoma and insertive rimming. "Lancet," 1992339938.

27. Beral, V. et al. Risk of Kaposi's sarcoma and sexual practices associated with faecal contact in homosexual or bisexual men with AIDS. "Lancet," 1992339632-35.

28. Testimony before House Health & Environment Subcommittee, 2/24/92.

29. Ciesielski, C. et al. Transmission of human immunodeficiency virus in a dental practice. "Annals of Internal Medicine, 1992116 798-80; CDC Announcement Houston Post, 8/7/92.

30. Rubin, S. "Sex Education Teachers Who Sexually Abuse Students." 24th International Congress on Psychology, Sydney, Australia, August 1988.

31. Cameron, P. & Cameron, K. Prevalence of homosexuality. "Psychology Reports," 1993, in press; Melbye, M. & Biggar, R.J. Interactions between persons at risk for AIDS and the general population in Denmark. "American Journal of Epidemiology," 1992135593-602.

32. Rodriguez-Pichardo, A. et al. Sexually transmitted diseases in homosexual males in Seville, Spain, "Geniourin Medicina," 1990 66;423-427.

33. AIDS Prognosis, Washington Times, 2/13/93, C1.

For J.T. who wanted where the stat came. How's this: "A widely cited 1978 study by Alan P. Bell and Martin S. Wineburg reported that 43 percent of homos had more than 500 sex partners during their lifetime." from the book "Homosexuality: A Study of Diversity among Men and Women" pg. 308.

Despite the rhetoric by the naysayers, homosexuals die earlier than heteros all the time. It is a dangerous and unnatural lifestyle. Duh, do the math.

For a good read, get the book, "The Marketing of Evil, How Radicals, Elitists, and Pseudo-Experts Sell Us Corruption Disguised as Freedom" by David Kupelian. The book is great. Chapter 1 deals with the facts of homosexuality, the facts that the media and naysayers ignore and try to hide.

test

Mr. Mark: If you're a Hitchens fan you'll love this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d7fHvHXeiQ&NR=1

Boom! HAAAAAAAAAAA HA HA HA HA HA!!

Jerry Falwell. He had a big heart. Then, suddenly, it exploded. BAH HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Rest in peace, Dr. Flawell.

Rest in peace, Dr. Flawell.

Rest in peace, Dr. Flawell.

Rest in peace, Dr. Flawell.

Rest in peace, Dr. Flawell.

Rest in peace, Dr. Flawell.

Hitchens eulogizes Falwell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMvnh87iJkY

GREAT stuff!

SW,

Please know that I am more than willing to address your comments regarding the infallibility of the Holy Scriptures, but first I want you to know that I am not out to harm, defame, or excoriate you or anyone who practices homosexuality. I have had several friends who are gay, and remain friends with them to this day. Yet, I speak on these things because I desire to see a breakthrough in their lives for the glory of Christ. Forgive me if I have offended you--that is obviously not my intent.

Where to begin? In your post at 5:29 p.m., you used the phrase "homosexuality as we know it today." How is homosexuality "as we know it today," different from homosexual acts that are addressed in the bible? Homosexuality is the sexual union of two persons of the same gender, no matter when the act occurs, be it 2000 years ago, or 2000 years from now. Pardon the redundancy, but sex between two men or two women is sex between two men and or two women (period).
Please clarify.

Second, your justification of homosexuality by addressing the Mosaic law, particularly in regards to ceremonially unclean foods, is misplaced, in my opinion. By your own admission, you have posited that homosexuality (men lying with men, or women lying with women) is indeed mentioned and expressly forbidden in the Old Testament, namely in Leviticus 18:22, 20:13. You then attempted to justify those acts by implying that if I were a "true bible-believer," I would not partake of foods today that were formerly forbidden for the Jewish community. In your view, the prohibition of homosexuality is, in the New Testament, thus removed, just as the prohibition of ceremonially unclean foods has been removed. My proof text for this is Acts 11: 1-10, where Peter is told, "What God has cleansed you must not call common," in reference to formerly unclean animals. The reason I partake of these animals is because God has cleansed them and has removed the former prohibition. Now, I have a question for you. If you can posit that the prohibition against homosexuality is no longer valid because it's supposedly found only in the Old Testament, will you also dare to posit the claim that "You shall not murder, " or "You shall not steal" is also no longer valid because they orinigated in the Old Testament? Of course you won't. And why? Because there are certain Old Testament commands that transcend mere cultural or societal norms and are therefore to be adhered to by all generations.

Would you be so kind as to cite the passage in Deuteronomy that speaks of "showing no mercy" to a woman who has touched another man's groin?

Yes, I am familiar with John Shelby Spong, but I can't say that I am an ardent admirer. To justify your position, you would of course need to reference someone who doesn't believe in the authority of the Scriptures, as does Bishop Spong, now retired Episcopalian Bishop of the Diocese of Newark, NJ. How can I trust his teachings about the Bible when he doesn't even believe the Bible's teachings? In his book A New Christianity for a New World: Why Traditional Faith is Dying and How a New Faith Is Being Born, written in 2001, he says:
"I do not believe that Jesus entered this world by the miracle of a virgin birth or that virgin births occur anywhere except in mythology. I do not believe that a literal star guided literal wise men to bring Jesus gifts or that literal angels sang to hillside shepherds to announce his birth. I do not believe that Jesus was born in Bethlehem or that he fled into Egypt to escape the wrath of King Herod. . . . I do not believe that the experience Christians celebrate at Easter was the physical resuscitation of the three-days-dead body of Jesus, nor do I believe that anyone literally talked with Jesus after the resurrection moment, gave him food, touched his resurrected flesh, or walked in any physical manner with his risen body." Regarding the Bible he says, "I do not believe that the Bible is the 'word of God' in any literal sense. I do not regard it as the primary source of divine revelation. I do not believe that God dictated it or even inspired its production in its entirety." One wonders how he can still call himself a Christian, if He denies the very Resurrection of the Lord Jesus. May I refer you to Christian orthodox theologians R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, or Ravi Zacharias for an alternative veiwpoint?

Please forgive me, but time is running late, and I need to get home for dinner. If you wouldn't mind, I would enjoy picking up our discussion tomorrow morning.

God bless,

Brian

sw, also I see you recommend John Shelby Spong as a competent biblical authority, but he's not really a respectable academic or Bible scholar- he seems to spend all his time on liberal activism, and writing purposefully inflammatory books.

Why don't you broaden your horizons a bit? Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega ministeries (aomin.org) recently debated him on this subject. He's a Koine Greek scholar and can set the record straight on the NT passages you brought up as having translation issues (Rom 1:26-27, etc.).

Kev,

My sensibilities don't shock. I'm confident to say that there are no "abortion lovers" in the world, maybe freedom lovers, privacy lovers, choice lovers, but no one loves abortion. The fact that you repeated that term in your post exposes your extremist attitude. As long as the government refuses to sponsor honest and realistic sex education and put pressure on health insurance providors to cover birth control, abortion is a neccessity. I never argued it was a good alternative.

I also think you misdirected the conversation. It was not my intention to turn this into an unwinable abortion debate. My point was merely that you need to be careful about how you choose to make your point, lest you get your hands just as dirty as what you are protesting.

sw, with regards to your 5/16 post about biological tests, with all due respect I think your fundamental perspective is wrong. The only important issue to decide is - 'is that behavior moral'. Everything else is irrelevant. For instance, a recovered alcoholic or smoker may see a video of someone drinking or smoking and exhibit a measurable response, whereas someone without those tendencies may not, but this does not make smoking and drinking healthy.

Even if this study is true, it does not speak to the *moral* issue.

"The perfectly normal straight and gay boys will read this, laugh and move on without comment, or affirm this post. The closeted homophobic GAY boys will react appropriately and denounce my post."

You could divide this differently: a law abiding citizen who is that way by his natural temperament and a reformed criminal, over against a criminal who is 'comfortable' with his nature and his crimes.

In fact, the reformed criminal may be more vehement in denouncing crime because he knows what it's really like. He deserves kudos for this, not an attempt to make him out to be somehow 'in denial' or hypocritical.
The law-abiding guy might be more tolerant (even fascinated, he may watch gangster flicks for example), but because of his ignorance, his attitude is not a meaningful or desirable moral stance.

Bottom line, you ought to prove your case for why such behavior is *moral*, don't just give us your ipse dixit as you do in your first response addressed to Dr. Mohler.

Why don't you call in to Mohler on 'Ask Anything Wednesday?' if your case is so strong? :)
1-877-893-8255. He's a scholar and a gentleman.

Andrea, I didn't intend to shock your sensibilities. I think abortion is murder. Roe v. Wade will be reversed in time, as it is a horribly decided case. It may well be that abortion is a constitutional right, but Roe v. Wade is clearly not the argument to make it constitutional. Horrible decision based on a terrbily flawed argument.

It's difficult to counter the abortion lovers because abortion lovers can always count on pulling out a graphic sob story to bolster their case. You know, the pregnant woman, the coat hanger, the darkened alley, the abortionist smelling of whiskey, etc. The media loves to tell a graphic story about the poor woman getting the abortion. The rape. The incest. We all feel horrible for this woman.

But they always seem to forget about the poor child who has just been slaughtered. Any reference to the murdered baby is taboo, and never to be brought up in polite conversation. If the media would portray what actually occurs during an abortion, voters in this country would overwhelming disapprove of this genocide.

Reverend Falwell did an excellent job of promoting civil rights and justice for unborn babies. It takes courage to take on militant abortion lovers. Because who will stand up for the rights of innocent babies? And I believe all people have the right NOT to have a pair of sissors jammed into the base of their skulls. That seems fairly logical to me.

Thomas Twitchell: you say, "Those of you who hated Falwell, it is because you hate God."

No kidding? Are you sure? How would you know something like that? Are you psychic? Did God tell you?

As have I, Brian,

Some portions several dozen times.

I do thank you kindly for your thoughtfulness in providing a response.

I am fully aware of the argument. Save your valuable time. I have heard it numerous times ad nauseum. Try addressing my theses as I proposed them and answer the questions I posed of you.

Any G-d that must be protected by the defense of zealots is not much of a G-d.

Nor is it a G-d I am interested in which being immersed.

Your assertion does not meet a very simple test. Deuteronomy literally is Greek for the SECOND Accounting and is an alternate retelling of Exodus. Leviticus is the Levite [Priestly] Accounting and is a retelling of Exodus and Deuteronomy. Exodus is followed by Leviticus followed by Deuteronomy. But Deuteronomy was written well before Leviticus. Explain the misordering of their arrangement in the Canon as I am sure a perfect G-d would know which came first and be honest in their ordering.

Here's a better one. Matthew Chapter 1 accounts 28 generations from King David to Jesus but counts David twice so it's actually 27. Very minor accounting error yet still an error for a perfect G-d to dictate. Luke in Chapter 3 accounts 41 generations from King David to Jesus of completely different fathers.

Now. Luke could be right and Matthew wrong. Or Matthew could be right and Luke wrong. Or both could be wrong. But it is impossible for both to be right at once. Impossible. Read it for yourself. The bible is neither inerrant nor absolute.

The great worldwide religions make the very same claim for their sacred texts as you. It is impossible for them all to be correct at once.

The problem is the inerrancy and absolutist claim.

I am sorry you believe unbelievable things, but no amount of fervor will alter the impossible nor will it into possibility -- let alone probability.

When you make the inerrancy claim you make of the bible a graven image which you then worship. Listen carefully to your languaging. Can't you hear the desperate plea for its validity in spite of reality? Don't worship a THING. Worship G-d found in the space between us.

Address that if you please.

sw

Dear SW,

My definition of "Bible-believing" is as follows: The Bible is the ONLY authoritative word from God, and thus is inerrant and infallible in all of its teachings, history, and prophecy. I trust that the Holy Spirit of God inspired the Bible's authors to write exactly what the Creator God desired to be revealed to His creatures, and thus I believe that every word is completely trustworthy and authoritative for me as a believer in Christ and for the entire world. Yes, I have read the Bible cover to cover; in fact, I have done so on more than one occasion.

Because of my job, time does not permit me to answer further until later tonight, so please anticipate forthcoming comments from me.

God bless,

Brian

"You were right Luke, you were right."

These maladaptations are not the cause of calamities, they are the result of calamity. The calamity of sin.

The entirety of the human race is as evil as it can get. What it produces it produces in kind. Even the good that it does is nothing more, the Scriptures say, than filthy mentrual cloths.

For Billy Graham to give a positive account of Jerry Falwell, is laughable. Billy Graham said, "They may not know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something they do not have, and they turn to the only light the have and I think that they are saved and they are going to be with us in heaven." To this Robert Schuller remarked, "What, what I hear you saying, that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and soul and life, even if they have been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you are saying?"
Billy Graham responded, "Yes, it is."

We cannot take the word of the heretic BG even if the SBC built a statue for his followers to faun over. Jerry Falwell's rejection of the foundations of the protestant faith, do not subject him to praise, either, and while he was alive his praise of Billy Graham, was so much smoke and mirrors.

For the many good things they did we can laud, but we with equal volume must denounce their unfaithfulness to the Word of God.

Those of you who know Schuller, mentor and friend of Rick Warren, may not be aware of his occult teachings. The lack of critical review on the part of Falwell speaks more loudly than all that he did well, however.

His innability, or unwillingness to confront the errors within himself and the SBC, and evangelicalism in general, will follow all that he has done.

"How ironic it would be if it turned out that Jerry was WRONG all these years, and God really does love everyone equally."

You see this kind of ignorance, of the American people so clearly displayed in this thread. Jerry Falwell did preach equallity of the love of God for all people. The problem is, it is not true. God has one kind of love for his bride, another for pretenders. Jerry Falwell's message did penetrate society and it was a false Gospel that lead people to make foolish statement like "God is love, therefore he loves everyone, and everyone equally." This is not true.

Who Falwell was to God, and who he is now, is not ours to judge. As is apparent by the comments here in these threads, good judgement is not in great supply. We are required none the less to judge righteous judgment. The ignorant voices on both sides will be silenced one day, of that we all know to be true. The ignorance of Jerry Falwell is silenced, but his words will live on, in hearts, in minds, on paper. His righteous judgements, also.

None of that has anything whatsoever to do with the truth. Jesus, the Word of God said, "Father, sanctify them by your Truth, Your Word is Truth...I am the Way the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by me....No one is able to come to me unless the Father draws him, and him I will raise up at the last day."

The truth is God hates and he does so in love. "Thus you also have those who hold to the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate...But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate...Jacob have I loved, but Esau I have hated...six things the Lord hates...." He hates sin and he hates the one who rejects his covenant and clings to sin. He will not destroy them in hell because he loves them! Noone, save the athiest, can say that God loves the evil doer, as is so abundantly clear in this thread. Each person's conception of God is that he hates those who hate one another for evil motives. Hate, however, requires truth and for something to be hated requires that something else trascends it as worthy of love. Since it has been amply demonstrated here that none of us is worthy, it leaves only the arbiter or Truth who is worthy, and that is God.

This is the judgement then, that light is in the world but men love darkness rather than light. They erect statues to venerate men, they tear then down to venerate ideas and indoing so they do not honor God who dwells in upproachable light, whose image can neither be discovered nor distroyed. That, they hate. And they not honoring God as God, he gives them up to their sin, to do to themselves and to others what pleased them and not him. His wrath against sin is being poured out, and that wrath is the sins of mankind, good and bad. One day it will be summed up in the Wrath of the final judgement of the world.

One thing that Falwell never told anyone is that God is an equal opportunity hater. He hates us all because of our sin. In his love he chose some that he might also show his favor. And he shows his love in this, being perfect in judgement, that while we were dead is sin, Christ died for us. For God loved the world in this way that he gave his only Son that those who were believing in him might not perish under the weight of the wrath of God that is being poured out against all ungodlyness and men, which included Jerry Falwell, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. This holy Son of God was give to the Father for the sins of His bride, and none other. Because of this the nations rage and plot the destruction of his holy ones. To them he has said, "If you are believing, then you have eternal life, but if you are not, you are condemned already." Those of the resurrection know him as risen, those who are dead do not. If today you hear this, repent of your unbelief, confess with you mouth what your heart knows as the TRUTH, and you will be saved.

Far and away people like Falwell have a zeal for God, but it is without knowledge. It beckons the selfish, for those who see the provision of the Lord as a means to escape, and not as the means by which God is glorifying himself through his creation. But, he was lightyears beyond the darkness of this world, simply by his acknowledgement that he had a Lord who owned him.

It is this that separates the believer from the unbeliever. We have been set free from the slavery and the condemnation due our sins, and have been made slaves to righteousness that is found only in the life, death and resurrection of Christ. It is not we who are righteous, we are sinners, in Christ alone is there Righteousness, in him alone is eternal life.

Those of you who hated Falwell, it is because you hate God. You hated Falwell because your own deeds were evil and Falwell, who in and of himself was evil also, shown the light of Christ on you sin. And you love your sin more than you love the light. I did not particularly like Falwell nor his secular civil religion. But, his appeal to an absolute, like a light in a dark room, sent the cockroaches scurrying and the rates skretching to the "safety" of their self- defined darkness. Darkness beckons to darkness, for in the darkness, who knows what is right?

In the end, those who hate are closer to the life of God than the athiest who has no object of hate except himself. Jesus said that he would have us hot or cold, rather than apathetic. Those without feeling are beyond remedy. Those who hate, still feel, and are still the objects of his affections should he choose to reveal himself to them. It was those who hated him that he died for, though he did not reveal himself to all. Only to some are given the right to become the sons of God. Those who are born by the will of God, from above, by the Spirit, to them it has been granted to understand the mysteries of the kingdom, but to the others it has not. This is the Truth, the one which Falwell rejected. It is the heart of Christianity, the reason for the proclamation of the good news to those who have ears to hear. Those who killed Christ, killed him because he called them children of their father the devil, which we all are. Some of us, he has slain by the brightness of his coming and called us out of sheol, and has given us new life according to the Spirit of Christ. As he said, he has life in himself and gives to whom ever he pleases, not that they choose him, but that he has chosen them. Jesus did not pray for the world, but in John 17.9, he excludes it. The world is scheduled for destruction and John the baptist was the one who came making the ways of the Lord straight, warning men to flee the coming judgment.

If you hear this voice, today, as long as it is called today, do not harden your heart as you have done before. Instead, ask for mercy and you will go home justified, as we hope that Falwell was.

Do not be deceived, Falwell's death is the occassion of my writting this, and you would not be reading it, if it was left in your control. Hear this, The Lord our God is one Lord, and his name is Jealous, his name is Jesus the Christ.

Isn't it interesting that you use gay sex of an abusive, violent nature as a defense mechanism, Kev?

Why does it concern YOU do much?

Why are you so consumed with gay people and violent, abusive gay sex acts? Rape, whether straight or gay is abhorent. Why does it fascinate you so?

What's that all about?

sw

Kevin,

You're most welcome. However, I have to express my distaste for your post re:abortion. It's as disgusting as protesters holding signs of aborted fetus parts next to dimes. You don't take into consideration that those parts were illegally obtained from the biohazard pickup at clinics, or that some sick person took the time to arrange those tiny arms next to those dimes. In expressing your beliefs against something, you are getting your hands just as dirty as those who practice it. If you (and not you directly, as I respect you, but the more general "you" populace) claim "moral highroad," take it.

cw, man, you're riding my butt as hard as Elton John. All I can do is spread the good news. The rest is up to the sinner.

Andrea, thanks for the Kudos. I have to speak in parables to this crowd. That's all they have the capacity to understand.

Anonymous:
SW:

"It is settled science."

Try for accuracy in your posts. I'd call you an a**hole, but that would be redundant.

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/plethysmograph.html

Posted May 16, 2007 4:23 PM

--------------------------------

This is a typical evasion. You are dishonest.

I gave you my source. Read it.

Read the PRIMARY source. Not a secondary critique.

Address the primary source. This is competent scholarship. What you did was incompetent and dishonest. Your citation is not congruent with mine. The use of profanity is the proof of an inferior mind and the speciousness of that "mind's" assertions.

Dr.'s Glenn Wilson & Qazi Rahman

"Born Gay: The Psychobiology of Sexual Orientation"

c2005

sw

I think everyone can agree that the practice of jamming a pair of sissors into the base of the skull of a new born baby is grotesque and gastly. It is simply murder. Rev. Jerry Falwell helped immensely to put an end to this 'procedure'. Although, from the ranting, hatred, and incoherent thoughts espoused by many on this post, it would appear that at least of few of the Falwell haters are victims of botched partial birth abortions. Mushy brains, or no brains at all (thanks to the abortionist sucking them out with a vacuum). For this accomplishment alone, Rev. Falwell has landed a coveted place in heaven.

Dear Anon,

Regarding your post, Posted May 16, 2007 4:28 PM, You just don't get it do you? Define "bible-believing". That is the rub. Have you read the bible cover to cover without missing any book? Because when you do more than once it becomes glaringly clear that your imposition of inerrancy and infallibility is not supported. No where in the bible is "homosexuality" as we know it today addressed. You conflate, confuse and misattribute our meanings today over the texts inappropriately. Only Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13 mention "men lying with men" but this is Mosaic holy law for Jews 2,400 years ago. Are you a practicing Orthodox Jew? I trust you never eat pork chops, bacon, pork roast, ham, shrimp, lobster, sushi, sashimi, rare beef, clams, muscles, crab or abalone? These are all an abomination. Are you a true bible-believer and NEVER do these things? In Deuteronomy a woman is never to touch another man's groin to protect her husband if he is in a fight -- to do so invites cutting off her hand and "showing no mercy." I'm sure a wife in this country has hit a male assailant’s groin -- it is standard self-defense training after all -- yet I see no handless or kneeless women in our society who have been shown no mercy as a result of this biblical offense, have you?

The Pauline Romans 1:23-25, I Timothy 1:10 and I Corinthians 6:9-10 passages are badly translated and poorly apprehended. As well as purposefully mistranslated in contemporary paraphrases today. Go to a competent library and read John Shelby Spong's "The Sins of Scripture" or "Living in Sin". Or go to Bruce Lowe's "A Letter to Louise" -- www.godmadmegay.com for a fuller explanation.

That's the extent of your case. In America ALL Americans are granted Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. The Bill of Rights is for ALL Americans. Go to Iraq if you don't like our country's liberty for ALL. All means all. It doesn't mean for some and not others regardless of rationalizations otherwise.

I am a Christian. I love Jesus. I love G-d. I am a gay AMERICAN -- entitled to ALL the liberties you enjoy -- especially the liberty to be myself honestly, love G-d, worship truthfully and love as I do. Frankly, it's no ones business but mine. As your sexual identity is no ones business but yours.

The Bible is really true but not particularly true. There is a difference. It is metaphorically true and SOME of it might have actually happened.

When you literalize and absolutize the bible you make of it a graven image which you then worship -- contrary to Jesus' ministry AND the 2nd Commandment.

Besides, Jesus is attributed to have said, "Judge no one for ANY reason." That means no one nor for ANY reason. What part of that is unclear for a Christian?

sw

This is nothing more than an outlet for people to show there true colors. And based on their true colors shining through on here we're all going to hell in a hand basket. These comments make me wonder if there are any rational nice people left in the world. Although the bible does tell us things will only get worse over time and those of you nonchristians unknowingly fulfill scripture with every hateful word...

Why are comments even on here? How pointless for people to show there ignorance and hate. This is nothing except pontificating butts.

For all of those Falwell fans "shocked" at the vitriol and negativity of those who disagree with Falwell....

You reap what you sew.

After all ol'Jerry had no problem dishing it out.

Dear SW,

As a bible-believing Christian, I would like to know where in the Bible I can find Scripture that support the idea that homosexuality is permissible before a Holy God.

SW:

"It is settled science."

Try for accuracy in your posts. I'd call you an a**hole, but that would be redundant.

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/plethysmograph.html

Thanks, Andrea. You are most welcome. The hypocrisy and irony is a little thick here -- particularly from the bible-quoting gay-haters. Now we all know why they hate gays and quote the bible to affirm it. It's a pleasure to serve.

sw

Oh, by the way. You'd be verrrrrrry surprised at what is known from historical 18th-century British literature -- especially the erotic libertine literaure of the time and the varied documented exploits of the "Methodists" within London society. My claims are academically supported by some very high-powered Ph.D.'s. It too is quite interesting. The hsitoric biographical literature of the Wesleys and their contemporaries is extensive. Avail yourself of a competent library.

sw

Why has no one brought up the post from yesterday, I believe, that said something about hetero men and women have avg 6-7 partners and homosexual men have 350!!!! Excuse me, but where did you get that statistic?? I call bull-sh*t. I want to see where that statistic came from, what study, funded by what organization? Or did you pull those numbers out of your arse?

And also, for the person who said only false statements have been made about J.F., I did not say that accredited or non-accredited reflects on the level of education received, I simply said that J.F. did not EARN his "doctorate" having not attended any higher education classes after he got his Bachelors. No study, in a classroom, or no studying from someone employed to teach at a university level = no DEGREE. No degree, means no title. He didn't do the work, he shouldn't be called DR. Period.

Strangely,

Very interesting post. I've heard about these tests, and reading the results, it makes sense. Thanks for sharing that!

Dear Russell D,

That was quite insightful. Many studies have been conducted and your hypothesis is roundly supported. The test is very simple and 100% accurate and conclusive.

It is settled science.

Here's how it works. Males and females can be tested -- males conclusively, females not as conclusively. A plethysmography device is attached to the male reproductive organ. It is a highly sensitive electronic sphygmomanometer connected to a computer which runs an algorithm to continuously monitor the signal output. It is very precise and sensitive. Even if the subject attempts to control his response the device will detect this and correctly indicate a positive result. It is very accurate.

The subjects are interviewed to assess their level of comfort with the subject of homosexuality and then tested.

They are shown soft-core videos of 2 women together, a neutral content segue way, 2 men together and repeated to establish sufficiently a conclusion.

Here's what these studies have determined. Straight men respond biologically and autonomically to the 2 women videos quite strongly. Gay men respond biologically and autonomically to the 2 men videos quite strongly. This is of course expected. The unexpected results are as follows. Straight men who are not homophobic in their pretest interviews always respond positively to the female videos. Men who claim they are "straight" but express even moderate homophobia do NOT respond to the female videos BUT respond positively to the male videos. Gay men who are comfortable with their sexuality and are not homophobic respond to the male videos appropriately as expected.

The conclusion is straightforward.

Only men who are gay and do not admit it [closeted], conceal it or lie about it engage in anti-gay rhetoric or worse.

The dirty little secret that has been exposed is that religions with high anti-gay hermeneutical orthodoxy or rhetoric -- such as homophobic bible-quoting or "love the sinner, hate the sin" sentiments -- are controlled and filled with closeted deeply self-hating GAY men pushing their anti-gay agenda.

This is hate -- both self-directed and outwardly -- pure and simple. It is conclusive.

So boys, you who read this take care. The perfectly normal straight and gay boys will read this, laugh and move on without comment, or affirm this post. The closeted homophobic GAY boys will react appropriately and denounce my post. Let the games begin.

Girls, your case is much more complicated. I refer you to Dr.'s Wilson & Rahman's book "Born Gay: The Psychobiology of Sexual Orientation".

Thanks, Russ!

sw

SW:

Your thinking is so confused you think Kevin, John Wesley and I are suppressing homosexual desires. -A man who died in 1791, and two unknown people posting on a blog -one of which you don't even know the gender.

-I believe you've peed yourself. Better clean up.

Kevin,

Kudos for bringing this conversation full circle!

Oh my...

Russell, smart wife you have there. For all of the evolutionists out there, it's pretty obvious that 'it' wasn't intended to be put 'there'. It's obvious that as we evolved from amebas to monkeys to humans (well, that's not obvious), that nature selected, and rewarded, those who knew 'where' to put 'it'. So, whether you approach it from a Biblical or an Evolutionary perspective, homosexuality is at least unnatural. Imagine when we were still at the monkey stage, jumping from tree to tree with nary a care in the world, if we'd decided as Monkey Nation that only male monkeys would do it with male monkeys, and females with females. Just think, none of you would be around the express your hatred for a man who has just passed away.

To the anonymous poster of Posted May 16, 2007 1:04 PM. & Kevin

I think it's interesting you both proved my point.

And you both avoided the facts as I have stated them. My point is that you could not deal honestly with the material and you didn't. Thanks for acknowledging and confirming my thesis.

Just remember that any man who engages in anti-gay rhetoric or hermeneutical discourse has a very deep secret he is concealing. It's OK to come out of the closet -- or are you both going to end up like Ted Haggart and Paul Barnes?

The truth shall set you free ...

sw

ps: I was so worried that no one would not get the reference, so it is heatening to know that you are educated. Be very careful of quoting John Welsey the way you did because he had the very demons of which I am speaking.

Barf.

Warmest Regards,
Andrea

Andrea:

Shock and awe baby, shock and awe.........

Russell,

Oh dear...

What happened to all the talk about tolerance? Why don't you just be honest and say you are tolerant of the things you like and you're intolerant of the things you don't. You preach tolerance of homosexuality, abortion, and everything else, but you're intolerant of evangelical Christians. Be honest, you're just hypocrits!

Ok, I may have to get graphic here, but I am gonna try to make a point fo rall of you homophobes out there. Guys mainly.

If you watch porn, do you like watching two women with each other? Most likely yes.
And you don't like to see two guys together.

Now, for the guys who like to partake in anal intercourse with their girlfriends and or wives.....I'll put it how my wife put it. You're already partaking in the act that gay men do, so you're just a step away......I mean, you're basically putting it in the same hole. Yea, I flinched when she said it to me, but oh well. I said, ok. So I guess that particular sex episode will be kind of sparse. She said yea.

Don't mean to freak you guys out, but think about it. I thought it was interesting.

Now Falwell is more like Jesus - DEAD.

sw, I have loved many men, I suppose much in the same way as David and Jonathon loved each other, and the way Jesus loved his disciples. You seem like an intelligent enough fellow to know that love and sex have very little to do with each other. Sex can be an expression of love, but it's not love. sw, I believe it's just another sympton of your choice to make the automatic connection between two men expressing love for one another, and sodomy. That's the basic problem with pursuing sin, sw, is that it eventually infects nearly every thought and emotion, to the point to where you can't exclude sinful thoughts from from otherwise non sinful behaviors, such as love. Jerry Falwell will be greatly missed.

You know Strangely Warmed, you may have had a deep religious conversion like John Wesley or you may have just peed your pants. If you abandon Scripture and the Doctrines and Principles of Eternal Truth, its all objective, isn't it?

"But the Christian rule of right and wrong is the word of God, the writings of the Old and New Testament; all that the Prophets and 'holy men of old' wrote 'as they were moved by the Holy Ghost'; all that Scripture which was given by inspiration of God, and which is indeed profitable for doctrine, or teaching the whole will of God; for reproof of what is contrary thereto; for correction of error; and for instruction, or training us up, in righteousness"

-- John Wesley

Great, Lucas - I'll check back on your website looking for a piece on not harassing atheists. I know that not all Christians do this, but as Mr Mark said, the possibility of this happening is a good reason for not self-identifying on internet forums.

You, on the other hand can be pretty sure that you have nothing to worry about and can even feel comfortable using the internet to promote your beliefs using your real name.

The vile and depraved posts above offer clear proof that the “tolerance” spoken of by the humanists and moral relativists is a one-way street, applying only to those who agree with them. Such a nonsensical and illogical line of thinking would be humorous if it was not so pathetic and frightening. It is also sad that many of these people invoke a god that they have made up in their own minds who condones or excuses however they choose to live and every decision they choose to make.

Such vitriol and rage are actually a sign proof positive that Jerry Falwell, though not perfect, was a true man of God (John 15:18-25). This hatred expressed toward him is the same as that which was poured out on the prophets of God throughout the Old and New Testaments (Hebrews 11:32-39). This occurred because the truth that they proclaimed struck a nerve in the societies of their day. Those to whom they preached became convicted of their sins and most of them, instead of repenting, became incensed to the point of murder. That is why Jerry Falwell cannot be merely cast aside and forgotten but is viciously attacked even after his passing.

So, let these deceived ones continue to rant and rave. At this point, Jerry Falwell couldn’t care less (not that he ever did). Today he is in the presence of God, more joyful than he has ever been, having been welcomed there by the Savior who he loved and proclaimed and by the thousands of eternally grateful souls who came to a saving knowledge of Christ through his ministry. Dr. Falwell’s legacy is an eternal one of great and valuable significance. It is one that will remain, long after these miserable and pitiful slaves to hatred and their diatribes have been forgotten.

Dear Kevin,

Regarding your post -- Posted May 16, 2007 11:55 AM -- I know that facts are awfully inconveneint to undistrubed belief but your postion is narrow and ignorant of what is actually portayed in the Gospels. While Mark does indeed seem to affirm your statement, Matthew blunts and expands these ideas in a way you have not accepted but is in fact present in that Gospel.

If you read Matthew 19:1-12 in its entirety your argument is without merit.

Here read it for yourself.

1And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;
2And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.
3The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Jesus quite clearly is protrayed as saying that intersexed persons [formerly known as hermorphodites], castrated men and Jewish Tenor Eunuchs [who were castrated prepubescent youths to preserve their beautiful voices for singing the Torah in the Synaguoge] are given as examples -- though NOT limited to only them -- whereby the marriage law would not apply and that they should never be condemned nor abused under the law becasue of who they are.

It is quite clear and it is very interesting that you -- and your brethern -- do not deal with it at all.

Stop being a bible-quoter to divide and condemn and start being Christ-like in living, loving and being fully and authentically.

Just a suggestion.

Also, how come guys like you will quote Genesis 19 & 20 to justify your homophobia but never deal honestly with I Samuel: David and Jonathon loved each other like their own souls and like no other. Hmmmmmm?

sw

JST,

So you heard on Fox or in a speech that he stole money from the members of his own church? Wow! Now I know Fox leans pretty heavily conservative, but I also know that the other networks watch Fox's broadcasts and would be shocked if one of them did not pick up on such a confession and run with it. Why was there no prosecution? I mean our government can throw people into military prisons like GITMO without filing a single charge. I am fairly certain that we could get a conviction for someome who confessed to embezzlement on national television.

And how on earth could he get away with bigotry on television in this crazy PC world of ours. I mean Don Imus makes one off-color (pun intended) remark and he gets fired and hung in effigy. I mean why haven't Jesse and Al calling for Falwell's firing?

As for politics, I grant you this much. He never minced words on where he stood on the critical issues. But there are people on the left who are just as blunt as he was and they try to use the cloak of religion to justify their blatantly political statements (i.e. Jackson, Sharpton, etc). Personally, I don't agree with this tactic, but I also don't see where any of his positions contradict the Bible.

All sarcasm aside. Look, there are lots of people in this thread and elsewhere right now making overblown claims about Falwell without any evidence. Furthermore, they are holding Falwell to a certain standard when they are not willing to hold other well-known people to the same standard. All I am saying is that we must be consistent in how we view these things.

JST,

So you heard on Fox or in a speech that he stole money from the members of his own church? Wow! Now I know Fox leans pretty heavily conservative, but I also know that the other networks watch Fox's broadcasts and would be shocked if one of them did not pick up on such a confession and run with it. Why was there no prosecution? I mean our government can throw people into military prisons like GITMO without filing a single charge. I am fairly certain that we could get a conviction for someome who confessed to embezzlement on national television.

And how on earth could he get away with bigotry on television in this crazy PC world of ours. I mean Don Imus makes one off-color (pun intended) remark and he gets fired and hung in effigy. I mean why haven't Jesse and Al calling for Falwell's firing?

As for politics, I grant you this much. He never minced words on where he stood on the critical issues. But there are people on the left who are just as blunt as he was and they try to use the cloak of religion to justify their blatantly political statements (i.e. Jackson, Sharpton, etc). Personally, I don't agree with this tactic, but I also don't see where any of his positions contradict the Bible.

All sarcasm aside. Look, there are lots of people in this thread and elsewhere right now making overblown claims about Falwell without any evidence. Furthermore, they are holding Falwell to a certain standard when they are not willing to hold other well-known people to the same standard. All I am saying is that we must be consistent in how we view these things.

E Favorite -

That depends on where you place the bar for harrassment. Obscene phone calls, threats, bent of saving their souls? Sure that's harrassment. Absolutely. You are right that such tactics are completely unbiblical and to me a sign of someone who has never turned away from their own sinfulness. We agree on that.

But I would take it one step further to say that anyone who thinks they can invent their own tactics to "beat people into submission" or damnation are also sinful. This would include for example the "God hates fags" crowd that goes around protesting at funerals. There is nothing that Jerry Falwell has preaching/taught that suggests that he would support that kind of lunacy.

As for obnoxious atheists, I haven't really run into any (yet). I know quite a few atheists/agnostics and they have generally been respectful and civil, but maybe that's just the nature of who I associate with.

Oh, and thanks for googling the web site. It's not really developed but I'm working on it (slowly). I would wholeheartedly promote civility in any forum that I create, but promoting tolerance/acceptance (according to today's societal standards) is a pipe dream.

Russell D, Jesus preached against the sin of lust outside the Holy bonds of marriage. Since marriage is a sacrament given by God to a man and a woman, Jesus was clearly urging homosexuals to reconsider their sinful choice. I have no ill-will towards homosexuals, I love them, and pray for them. 'Normal' is a statistical term, implying an average. Homosexual sex seems to be slightly more average, or 'normal', than people having sex with animals.

Tolerance??

I read one post that "Jesus stood for tolerance". Tell that to the scribes and the pharisees, go read matthew 23 and the many "woes" of judgment and condemnation he pronounced on the scribes and pharisees.

Jesus said:

"I am the way the truth and the light, NO MAN comes to the father but by me." John 14:6

Sounds pretty narrow and intolerant. But then again he is the king of kings and Lord of Lords...and if there ever was a my way or the highway that sticks it would be his word.

Tolerance is a false concept anyway because the most intolerant person is still intolerant of those they view as intolerant. Tolerance is the new question of the modern day inquisition to put down those of faith. If you believe anything strongly then you are to be condemned and vilified. Maybe that is why so many hated Mr. Falwell.

I was never comfortable letting any think that he spoke for me in my christianity, as I disagreed with much of his teachings. But neither did I hate the man, nor do I hate those who here have posted hateful remarks about him. I do not presume to think that Jesse Jackson speaks for all blacks, just as J.F. Did not speak for all Christians. but the man took a stand and stood there, even in the stiffest of winds. For that he deserves some credit. The homosexual community takes a stand and I have several friends who are gay and I respect them, I do not agree with them but we co-exist peacefully and graciously. That is not happening here in this blog...unfortunately.

Lucas,

I have only his speeches, his appearances on Fox,
etc. to judge him.

A few minutes of Googling his quotes, or
a few minutes on YouTube will bear out his
belief system.

I know how hard it is for Evangelicals to see
how repugnant their morals are to many others.

Of course mine are repugnant to them.

Dear Kevin,

I love Jesus. I love G-d. G-d made me gay. I love myself as I love G-d as I love everyone -- even those with whom I disagree -- especially those.

Heterosexuality is wonderful. Homosexuality is too. It doesn't matter who people are. It only matters how we treat each other and whether or not we are true to ourselves as G-d made us. We must be kind, respectful and empowering to one another, and never use or harm each other.

Falwell and you, apparently, have forgotten that truth comes first and is the most important beginning to any path of faith. Telling the truth no matter the consequences used to be an important ideal. Falwell forgot this in his quest for power and influence -- pandering to the worst impulses out of a desire to control and dominate. Ayn Rand called the man who hungers after power the worst kind of 2nd-hander -- looter.

This is a false path. As Russell D. said, there is nothing wrong with gay people as there is nothing wrong with straight people. Ones sexual identity is no one else's business unless each is going to make a life-long commitment to one another. This is good and right for everyone regardless of sexual identity. Isn't it?

We ought to all get behind this call -- it is, after all, what Jesus lived and died for when you read the Pauline and Gospel corpus in its entirety.

Believing merely in belief is a booby prize -- a consolation gift when one can no longer live full-out in fierce faith. It is an expression of a resignation to the despair of the futility of life. I am not despairing. I am not resigned to the futility of life. I lived that we all must have life and have it abundantly in all its exuberant expressions and diversity. This is what the Johannon Gospel is talking about.

Ultimately, any anti-gay rhetoric, activism or abuse is an expression of despair and a resignation to futility.

Come into the light and live, my friend. Stop condemning anyone for any reason whatever. It robs not only others you condemn but more importantly YOU of life.

sw

It's a stain gone. One thorough scrub and he'll be forgotten.

It is unfortunate that so many people use hate speak to describe how they think someone else is hateful. It is the hubris of hypocrisy at its best...or better - at its worst.

For all those who have made little impact other than hateful blogging I'm sure they feel quite fulfilled in leaving such comments here.

Although the following comment is elementary I will leave it anyways:

When you have the influence that draws nearly every president in the last three decades to at some point, to some degree, seek a personal meeting with you, until you build something larger than yourself such as a major university, until you publish numerous books and keep a non stop speaking itinerary, until you....do something more lasting than posting hateful prattle....

Until after you have made 1/100th of the impact for your cause that Falwell did for his, then you can offer a meaningful critique.

Lucas Defalco

• Age: 34
• Gender: Male
• Astrological Sign: Virgo
• Zodiac Year: Rat
• Industry: Technology
• Occupation: Tech Support Manager
• Location: [redacted by E favorite]

Interests: Teaching adult Sunday School , Reading theology books , Studying God's word

Lucas - That’s you, right? Sure sounds like you and your name is uncommon enough to make Googling quite easy. I found this information in about 10 seconds – including typing in your name and pressing . It took me another 5 minutes to find a photo – cute guy - and I wouldn’t be surprised if you have an Italian great-grandmother who prays every day for your return to the One True Church.

I applaud you for being so open and fearless about your faith. Perhaps you have less reason to worry about being harassed by atheists than atheists have to be harassed by Christians bent on saving their souls. Maybe you could post something on your website, discouraging other Christians from making threatening, obscene phone calls to atheists, advising them that this is not Christ-like and no way to get converts. Only if you believe it, of course.

I don't (didn't) hate Mr Falwell.
JST wrote:

"I vehemently disagreed with EVERYTHING he stood
for.

His Bigotry.
His Homophobia.
His ridiculous "University".
His Politics
His attempts and success at hijacking our Constitution.
His robbing of the people in his church.

Also I do love the great circular logic quotes by
the "faithful" that support such an awful legacy."

========

More unsubtantiated accusations.

Between those whining about the "tolerant being intolerant" and the anti-Falwellers making accusations without a shred of evidence, this place is sounding like a truly "broken" record.

:/

Here's hoping that Falwell is reincarnated as a Palestinian lesbian.

I believe that if so many people hate Jerry Falwell, then he must be doing something right because Jesus was hated by many. Sadly people do not want to hear the truth but prefer to have their ears tickled. Jerry had the guts and vision to speak up at a time when Christians did not get involved in politics. He made a difference and I respect him for it. I do not agree 100 percent with everything he said but generally he stepped up and tried to do the right thing for God. Of course he may have made some mistakes on the way. But still he demonstrated his love for sinners by speaking the truth. May we Christians be more like him; not be afriad to speak the truth!

Mr. Mark wrote:

"Dear Lucas -

Religion is the outright theft of our innate goodness.

Man's morals evolved in pre-history and were a universal truism before religion raised its ugly head, made man the object of its hatred and claimed man's morals as its own.

Religion's morals are a cheap imitation of that which evolved within us, without god and without religion.

When you speak of the moral code of the Bible, you're speaking of the law. Even the hallowed 10 Commandments are useless without a penalty for breaking them. The Bible says "honor your mother and father." Implicit in that is, "or else." In the case of the Bible, that "or else" isn't, "or you may have to eat popsicles for the next week." No, the "or else" is that parents should stone to death their sassy children.

But as horrible as the OT is, it's nothing compared to the NT. In the OT, if you were an enemy of the Hebrew god, you faced death and extinction. Hell, god even told Israel HOW to kill his enemies. But once you were dead, you were dead and your existence was over. It took the loving Jesus of the NT to come up with the idea of an ETERNITY of torment for god's enemies. Isn't that special?

I think that about covers the "morality" of the whole Bible."

Not by a country mile, but nice try.

Man's moral exists long before pre-history actually. They have existed since the fall of man just after creation, which another debate entirely. My point is that your timeline for development of morals neither refutes the Biblical account nor does it support your claim that man's morals have evolved. You still have not explained how they have gotten better over time. What is the evidence of this "innate goodness" of which you speak?

When I am talking about the moral code of the Bible I an NOT just talking about the OT, I am including the NT. You can't just cull a few passages out of Leviticus or somewhere else and say that it speaks for all 11,000+ verses of the Bible on the subject of morality/ethics.

Furthermore, the Bible in its entirety is one continual revelation of God not two seperate revelations for two seperate peoples in two different time periods. In fact, there is some debate over whether the OT and NT should be rendered seperately. To me the only things that seperate them are about 400 years and the fact that one was written in Hebrew and once in Greek. If we don't agree on that much, the rest of this won't make much sense.

Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law (OT) but to fulfill it. Therefore compliance with God's requirement of pure righteousness can only be obtain through Jesus Christ. Nobody has ever been able to fully comply with the 10 commandments, much less the entire law. The purpose of the law is not so that it could be fully obeyed. The purpose of the law is to expose our "innate corruption".

Also, the concept of eternal torment existed in the OT. It was referred to as Sheol in the Hebrew (OT) and as Hades in the Greek (NT). Both terms refer to the same concept (lit. "the grave") which is where unbelievers go to await the bodily resurrection and God's judgement. Unfortunately, popular culture over the years (and sadly the church) has created imagery of what this place is like that is completely unrelated to the Biblical account. There won't be a red guy with horns and a pitchfork waiting for you. It's not a place full of caves. It's not Club Med.

What happens after God's judgement is that those who are in Sheol/Hades are cast into the lake of fire along with Lucifer and his angels (Rev. 20:14).

I don't (didn't) hate Mr Falwell.

I vehemently disagreed with EVERYTHING he stood
for.

His Bigotry.
His Homophobia.
His ridiculous "University".
His Politics
His attempts and success at hijacking our Constitution.
His robbing of the people in his church.

Also I do love the great circular logic quotes by
the "faithful" that support such an awful legacy.

Kevin:

Jesus didn't preach against homosexuality. Get it right.

And for the record, homosexuality is as normal as heterosexuality. Got a problem with gay people? Please, enlighten me with your wisdom.

I was terribly saddened when I heard the news about the passing of Rev. Falwell. Jerry Falwell was a compassionate visionary, and a true American patriot. Rev. Falwell reminded us that there is only one path leading to salvation. He encourage the nation to repent it's sinful ways, and much like Jesus, was persecuted for his beliefs. Those who hate Rev. Falwell because of his unwavering stance on the evils of homosexuality, would also hate Jesus. I'm sure many Jews were happy the day they crucified Jesus, for how dare that carpenter preach to the masses about the sinful nature of the homosexual appetite. That same hatred of righteousness continues unabated today, as many of the comments posted here take greate pleasure in the death of a man who defended the wisdom of God.

It is amazing how intolerant and hateful those who claim to be the most tolerant can be. They cloak themselves in robes of tolerance to justify their sins. Although I do not agree with all that Jerry said or did I have never heard Jerry Falwell say the hateful things that the majority of people are saying about him on this thread. He stood against what he believed God's word said is evil but I heard him say many times that he loved all people but hated the sin that was destroying them and the nation. We all will stand before God's judgment seat and all who are spewing hatred on this thread will give an account for their murderous rants.

A Christian's success in life is often measured by the numbers that love him. Perhaps faithfulness might be better measured by the numbers that hate us.

" 22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. 23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets" (Luke 6:22-23).

That was a lot of things to repeat there........hope you got it out of your system.

I never personally knew Mr. Falwell. I heard what he has said, and have heard what was said about him. Seems he is leaving a legacy of unhappy people.

I will not speak ill of the dead, for it is not who I am, but I can say this. He made an impact. How he made it was widely regarded as unacceptable. I am sure when he was around friends and family he was a nice and great man. Yet his public image spoke of another side to the man.

What we need to realize is that there are going to be people that will always have an agenda, whether it be hate or love. What we must learn is to find a way to co-exist. Isn't that what God and Jesus would have wanted?

Oh, and I am an atheist by the way. Sue me.

Larissa, you wonder "Who told the first monkey it was wrong to kill?"

Do you ever wonder whether God was the first one to tell the Jews that killing was wrong? Did you think that before Moses went up to the mountain, the Jews and all the people who came before them had no moral code and no sense that killing each other was not acceptable? Have you wondered how their society could've even survived that long without a moral code?

Please think about these things.

Thanks

Yolanda King died. Can we talk about her instead?

R. Albert Mohler Jr.
President, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is the ninth president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary—the flagship school of the Southern Baptist Convention and one of the largest seminaries in the world. The “On Faith” panelist is a theologian and ordained minister and has served as pastor and staff minister of several Southern Baptist churches. He holds a Master of Divinity degree and the Doctor of Philosophy (in systematic and historical theology) from Southern Seminary. He did additional study at the St. Meinrad School of Theology and research at Oxford University. He became seminary president after serving as editor of The Christian Index, the oldest of the state papers serving the Southern Baptist Convention. Called "an articulate voice for conservative Christianity at large" by the Chicago Tribune, Mohler's mission is to address contemporary issues from a consistent and explicit Christian worldview. He hosts a daily radio program for the Salem Radio Network and blogs on moral, cultural and theological issues. He also has contributed chapters to several books including Hell Under Fire, Whatever Happened to Truth, Here We Stand: A Call From Confessing Evangelicals and The Coming Evangelical Crisis. He served as General Editor of The Gods of the Age or the God of the Ages: Essays by Carl F. H. Henry. Close. R. Albert Mohler Jr.
President, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is the ninth president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary—the flagship school of the Southern Baptist Convention and one of the largest seminaries in the world. The “On Faith” panelist is a theologian and ordained minister and has served as pastor and staff minister of several Southern Baptist churches. more »
Main Page | R. Albert Mohler Jr. Archives | On Faith Archives

Educated, Inspired Conservative Christians
The death of Dr. Jerry Falwell brings an end to one of the most fascinating lives of the twentieth century. In so many ways, Jerry Falwell became one of the most recognizable faces for conservative Christianity in America.

In order to understand Jerry Falwell, one must first understand the nature of independent fundamentalism in the mid-twentieth century. This movement was born out of frustration with the theological liberalism that had so quickly been embraced by mainstream Protestant denominations. These conservative Christians were determined to maintain biblical orthodoxy in the face of theological compromise.

Independent fundamentalism affirmed several doctrines understood to be under attack -- doctrines including the inerrancy of the Bible, the virgin birth of Christ, the substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Christ, and the bodily return of Christ. Beyond this, the movement was largely shaped by a dispensational understanding of Christ's return. This last belief gave the fundamentalist movement a sense of urgency and a motivation to put evangelism ahead of other priorities, including political involvement.

Added to these beliefs was the principle of biblical separation -- the belief that believers must separate themselves from those who deny or compromise the faith. This underlined the independent character of fundamentalism. Though fundamentalist churches did band together for limited common causes, each congregation remained staunchly independent and the movement rejected the denominational model that characterized American Protestantism.

Jerry Falwell began his ministry in the heart of this movement, and the church he founded in Lynchburg, Thomas Road Baptist Church, was typical of other independent churches. It started in 1956 in the elementary school Falwell had attended as a boy and then moved to a building that formerly served as a bottling company for soft drinks. From these humble beginnings grew the Falwell empire in Lynchburg.

The young Jerry Falwell attended the Baptist Bible College in Springfield, Missouri -- one of the central institutions of the fundamentalist movement. Given his background, his education, and the way he began his ministry in Lynchburg, he seemed destined to continue the trajectory of the fundamentalist movement. And, for decades, he did just that. The Thomas Road Baptist Church experienced explosive growth under his leadership. The energetic pastor built the church into a major presence in Virginia, and then a major presence in American religious broadcasting through "The Old Time Gospel Hour," his weekly national broadcast.

In the late 1970s, Falwell became concerned about the moral state of the nation and was awakened to a sense of political and social responsibility. He began to speak to these issues, calling conservative Christians to become involved in the political process.

As a 16-year-old boy, I was in the crowd at the convention center in Miami Beach when Dr. Falwell joined singer Anita Bryant in holding a rally to involve Christians in the struggle against a gay rights ordinance adopted by Dade County. I had never heard of Jerry Falwell until that night -- and after that experience I would never forget him.

As the 1980 presidential race approached, Jerry Falwell was one of the primary leaders of a movement intended to mobilize conservative Christians for the election. Dr. Falwell founded the Moral Majority as a means of educating and mobilizing Christian citizens about moral issues such as abortion -- a key issue after the 1973 Roe decision. By any measure, he was successful beyond all expectations. The movement was crucial to the election of Ronald Reagan as president in 1980 and has shaped every election cycle since.

The project of the Moral Majority was, in itself, a redefinition of the fundamentalist movement. It led to a break with many other fundamentalist leaders and required a much larger and more inclusive platform than many fundamentalists could handle. The principle of biblical separation had to be redefined in order to accommodate the more inclusive movement of the Moral Majority. He remained a Dispensationalist to the end, but his approach included an agenda for Christian activism until Christ returns.

Even as the Moral Majority became less prominent in national affairs (and eventually was disbanded as a formal organization), this was, to a considerable extent, an affirmation of its very success. Dr. Falwell leaves a legacy of motivating Christians for activism and concern -- especially on issues such as abortion and the family.

What the national media often missed was his greater passion -- Liberty University. Jerry Falwell was a man of big ideas, and Liberty University was perhaps his biggest. Founded in 1971, the school was first known as Lynchburg Baptist College. But Jerry Falwell did not have Lynchburg on his mind so much as a generation of young people. The school was driven by Falwell's expansive vision. When I preached at Liberty University just a few weeks ago as a chapel speaker, I was impressed once again with the reality of what Dr. Falwell so often called the "miracle on Liberty Mountain."

Enjoying lunch as Dr. Falwell's guest, I listened to him lay out expansive and bold plans for the future of the university and its programs. As always, his energy was infectious and his dreams were big. And there was every reason to expect that what he dreamed would soon become a reality. I saw the proof of his leadership all around me. Examples would include one of the nation's youngest law schools and a new and massive campus for Thomas Road Baptist Church.

And, as always, his sense of humor was intact and in action. Jerry Falwell loved life and he loved people. He was as engaging a personality as I have ever known. He had the ability to reach out to persons young and old. How many septuagenarians have such a hold on the young? Young Christians knew that Jerry Falwell believed them to be important. He was invigorated by being around Liberty students -- and they were inspired by him.

The legacy of Dr. Jerry Falwell will be debated for decades to come. Political scientists, theologians, church leaders, and historians will all have their say. Jerry Falwell would not be threatened by this analysis. He expected that some would love him for his beliefs and others would not. He was a man in constant motion, and he seemed rarely to look back. He redefined independent fundamentalism and then led his church to associate with the Southern Baptist Convention, which had experienced its own conservative redirection. He mobilized a movement of conservative Christians in America and built a massive empire.

These remain as monuments to Jerry Falwell's leadership and vision. But, far more than these, I would look to his family. Dr. Jerry Falwell leaves a wife he dearly loved, Macel, and three children who were the pride of his life. The best testimony to Jerry Falwell the man is that his children love him and his two sons stand ready to continue what their father began. For a man who spent so much time in the public eye, this is a truly powerful legacy.

If Jerry Falwell could speak now of what he most loved about his ministry, I believe he would speak of all the achievements listed above. But more than these, he would be thankful for those who had come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through his preaching and witness -- and through the multiplied witness of those trained and educated at Liberty University.

And, as he spoke of these, you could count on him talking with a smile -- and with big plans for the future. This is central to the legacy of Dr. Jerry Falwell.

Posted by R. Albert Mohler Jr. on May 15, 2007 1:48 PM

Comments (322)
Mr Mark:
A legacy of ignorance, intolerance and - in death - ignomy.

Posted May 15, 2007 3:43 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 15:43

Anonymous:
Hopefully he'll have a line of gays, lesbians, feminists, pagans and blacks who died in 9/11 waiting for him...

Hit him hard, guys. Hit him hard.

Posted May 15, 2007 3:59 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 15:59

Norrie Hoyt:
"As a 16-year-old boy, I was in the crowd at the convention center in Miami Beach when Dr. Falwell joined singer Anita Bryant in holding a rally to involve Christians in the struggle against a gay rights ordinance adopted by Dade County. I had never heard of Jerry Falwell until that night -- and after that experience I would never forget him."

And you both thought homophobes can be Christians.
What a wonderful interpretation of a religion supposedly of love.

De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.

Since there is no Bonum to be said here, I'll just exit.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:01 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:01

Anonymous:
Thank God there is one less person that will brainwash and rob the poor

Posted May 15, 2007 4:02 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:02

steve:
Jerry Falwell loved people? Only if you don't count those who disagreed with him. His legacy in the church is not one to be proud of. It was one of division, rancor, ill will and the pursuit of mammon rather than the love of people. It would have been one thing to say that he was a loving husband and father, but please, please, please, don't say that a hatemonger who sowed seeds of division was someone who loved people.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:03 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:03

gitanjali:
I fail to understand in what way intolerance is compatible with Christianity, or how an anti-democratic movement ("the Moral Majority") which sought to impose its religious beliefs on others is compatible with the doctrine of "biblical separation." Dr. Mohler needs to understand that Dr. Falwell was an American Mullah--an authoritarian personality who used religion as a means to gain political power.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:04 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:04

Ryno:
white-washed nonsense. his true legacy is retrenchment and bigotry and ignorance. a more honest reflection could not ignore the damage that he has done to his country and his party.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:04 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:04

anonymous:
Jerry Falwell was a parasite who fed on fear, ignorance, and bigotry. The only legacy that he leaves is an institution devoted to his own vanity. While there are still plenty of racist power hungry demagogues in this world, at least we can sleep a little better at night with just one less.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:06 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:06

Anonymous:
Good riddance to another bloated death cult leader.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:07 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:07

Joe Nash:
Vegas odds on when Falwell's half breed illegitimate child shows up.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:10 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:10

RevRednek:
For people upset about intolerance, your comments seem to make you hypocrites.

Jerry Falwell: So goes another of the nation's greatest, if only political, figures of its greatest generation. His accomplishments are vast, but his impact will be felt decades from now. God has used a country boy in Jerry Falwell, and I hope He uses the country boy writing this comment.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:11 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:11

Thomas:
He had a chance to live the true teachings of Jesus. Instead he chose to spread his own brand of hate and bigotry. I'm glad that the one who will judge him will judge him more fairly than how Falwell judged countless others

Posted May 15, 2007 4:12 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:12

Anonymous:
Father, forgive these people leaving ignorant remarks because they know not what they're talking about. Amen.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:13 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:13

Jerry Falwell:
A wafer-thin mint? Oh all right. Just one.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:14 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:14

DST:
An old Fundamentalist teacher once told a group of young ministers, "In life you can either be a 'fisher of men', or a 'keeper of the fishbowl', but not both."
It is sad that Jerry Falwell will be remembered for having forgotten that truth.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:14 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:14

Rod Namdoog:
I am outraged at the cruel, insensitive, amoral, blasphemous bigots that have posted to this site insulting and defaming the worthy character of a man like Jerry Falwell. You people are not worthy of his urine if you were on fire!!!. People like Falwall, praying for you reprobates, helped stem the tide of God's judgement against you creeps. The devil in you hated him for the God power that was in him. I honor him as a man of God, a man of valor, and certanily one that forstalled the overdue judgement of God against the sorts that have blasphemed the Soverign Creator and His humble worthy servant Jerry Falwell.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:16 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:16

Brian:
Jerry Falwell. Have a great day. He was not so awesome. Now he will not talk because he is dead. But another one will replace him or step up the game.

All the big-name evangelists have some thing or another happen that exposes them for what they are. You know the stories. Stop these maniacs!

Posted May 15, 2007 4:16 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:16

Big Al:
Wow, the heterophobes are restless. Dr. Falwell loved all kinds of people, regardless of thier rebellion against thier Creator.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:16 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:16

mike:
Even though I believe in the Doctrines of Grace and do not agree with brother Falwell's theology, I can say that I can't agree more with your statement-
"If Jerry Falwell could speak now of what he most loved about his ministry, I believe . . .he would be thankful for those who had come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through his preaching and witness -- and through the multiplied witness of those trained and educated at Liberty University."
Amen

May God bless his family and may they continue to delight in Him.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:19 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:19

Bob Dobbs:
Jerry Who? Oh yeah, another dead Rightwing racist coward, currently heading south to continue his service to Satan. Welcome to oblivion.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:20 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:20

Andrea:
Rod Namdoog,

HAHA! What? Urine? Worthy character? Oh dear...

If there is a God, he certainly disapproves of Falwell and his lot, and if there is a heaven, Falwell isn't there. Though, I do thank him for Liberty, some of my best friends went there.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:20 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:20

AL:
Those who didn't like him didn't really know him.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:20 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:20

AL:
Those who didn't like him didn't really know him.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:20 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:20

Anonymous:
Psychicks! Garrrrgoyles! In falwells name I pray!

Posted May 15, 2007 4:21 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:21

Norrie Hoyt:
Big Al,

Where's your evidence?

Posted May 15, 2007 4:21 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:21

OD:
Falwell is dead? Does that mean the Rapture is here?

Posted May 15, 2007 4:21 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:21

Laurie:
Wow, there is no hatred in this group of bloggers. You all talk about man of hatred and listen to yourselves. Talk about blasphemy. You will all rot in hell.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:22 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:22

Ba'al:
Jerry Falwell made this country a worse place. I fear for the minds warped at Liberty University.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:25 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:25

Anonymous:
I was never a fan of Fallwell, but if some of you guys out there liked him and liked his teachings, thats cool with me. People need to chill out a little bit. Let people believe what they want to believe.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:26 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:26

OD:
By the way, Rod Namdoog, great line: "You people are not worthy of his urine if you were on fire!!!"

Almost biblical-sounding. Love it.

But when you accuse people of "blaspheming" against Jerry Falwell, er, I think that's technically blasphemy.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:26 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:26

Hayden:
Such kind and gracious words about a man that is dead from many anonymous commenters. I thought we were supposed to be above "intolerance".

I did not agree with many of Jerry Falwell's stances but I would not "spit on his grave" as some have in these comments. The way that many are reacting to him will vindicate the views he held and lend creedence to some of his protests.

How many of the commenters would say the same things to his wife and children? His grandchildren? I thought so. It is easy to hide behind the keyboard and play judge an jury to a man that I would venture a guess that none of you knew.

Preciously ironic, isn't it?

Posted May 15, 2007 4:27 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:27

Hayden:
Such kind and gracious words about a man that is dead from many anonymous commenters. I thought we were supposed to be above "intolerance".

I did not agree with many of Jerry Falwell's stances but I would not "spit on his grave" as some have in these comments. The way that many are reacting to him will vindicate the views he held and lend creedence to some of his protests.

How many of the commenters would say the same things to his wife and children? His grandchildren? I thought so. It is easy to hide behind the keyboard and play judge an jury to a man that I would venture a guess that none of you knew.

Preciously ironic, isn't it?

Posted May 15, 2007 4:27 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:27

Norrie Hoyt:
Laurie,

You don't like the hateful comments about Jerry Falwell on his death?

"As ye sow, so shall ye reap."

Posted May 15, 2007 4:28 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:28

Anonymous:
A great man has fallen. There must be a mega-church built in his honor - one so huge that it will blot out the sun, made of shining gold glass and steel and feature a 200 ft golden Fallwell, resplendent with an eternally unobstructed colon.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:30 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:30

lepidopteryx:
How is saying that Jerry Falwell was hateful blasphemy? He was not a god, and one cannot blaspheme against a mortal.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:32 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:32

Mark:
The hate-filled vitriol towards Dr Falwell speaks volumes that he was correct. Jesus said it first through (John 3). Folks hate Jesus and Dr Falwell because they love their evil deeds.

Men do indeed have a sinful heart that is in enmity towards God. Those that are lost without Christ can't even pay respects to a fine man, husband, father, and grandfather because he stood for Christ. You that are spewing hate today should be ashamed of yourselves, if you were capable of shame that is.

Mark

Posted May 15, 2007 4:34 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:34

Mark:
The hate-filled vitriol towards Dr Falwell speaks volumes that he was correct. Jesus said it first through (John 3). Folks hate Jesus and Dr Falwell because they love their evil deeds.

Men do indeed have a sinful heart that is in enmity towards God. Those that are lost without Christ can't even pay respects to a fine man, husband, father, and grandfather because he stood for Christ. You that are spewing hate today should be ashamed of yourselves, if you were capable of shame that is.

Mark

Posted May 15, 2007 4:34 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:34

dc baptist:
Honestly, I wish no ill on Falwell or his family, and certainly take no pleasure in his death, but remembering someone after dying takes a remarkable amount of editing. Falwell claimed the 9/11 attacks were the wrate of God for all the gays and abortions in this country. Did Christ not say judge not lest you be judged? Love thy neighbor as thyself? Falwell cultivated division and derision. Let's not rewrite history as we remark on his accomplishments--which were indeed great. And Dr. Mohler--"a conservative redirection," as you hurt and ousted people dedicated to teaching God's word because they believed in such things as the ordination of women to the ministry? More like a conservative hijacking. Thank God for the CBF.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:34 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:34

strangely warmed:
Dr. Mohler,

I am gay. I am not sinful. I am not immoral. I do not hate families or my family. I am certainly not Godless. I am happy. I love my family. I love Jesus. I love G-d. And G-d made me gay. I had no choice in the matter. The only choice I have is to be truthful about it with myself, G-d, family, community, friends -- and, yes, my church. I am proud to be who I am and be it honestly.

You have said yourself that gay people have no choice about their sexual identity. Frankly, you are just cushioning the blow for uninformed Baptists -- becasue the science is settled. Gay people are born gay. Straight people are born straight. We are who we are regardless of what ignorant uninformed mendacious people might say otherwise.

I thank G-d Jerry Falwell is dead. Sorry about that. But I profoundly do. He was an evil man. Intolernat, hateful, vengeful, self-aggrandizing, self-serving, self-important, ignorant, insecure, fearful, cowardly and homophobic.

Only gay men are homophobic. Straight men are not homophic. They do not engage in anti-gay rhetoric, physical abuse or activism. Only closeted gay men who cannot accept themselves are homophobic. This too is settled science.

One manifestation is to read homophobia into the biblical texts so as to assuage their interalized homophobia. Jerry Falwell was a rabidly homophobic man. Former Evangical Reverend & Leader of the Association of Evangelical Churches Ted Haggart is a homophic man. Former Evangelical Reverned Paul Barnes is a homophic man. We now know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Ted Haggart and Paul Barnes are both closeted self-hating gay men. What does this tell us of Jerry Falwell's character?

That he too was a closeted gay man who did unforgivable evil upon gay people. He was a liar. His legacy of hate will crumble of its own accord. I thank G-d he is dead.

I do not rejoice at his dying -- yet, truthfully, I do applaud it. Much good can come because of it.

sw

ps: for those of you who wish to examine the evidence for my claims please find and read "Born Gay: The Psychobiology of Sexual Orientation" by Glenn Wilson & Qazi Rahman, c2005. Dr. Mohler in his infamous blog last month was merely quoting from their book.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:34 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:34

The Immoral Minority:
Jerry,
May God bless you and teach you to understand that Jesus = Love. Beyond all of that you need to know nothing more. Unfortunately, your comments and so called moral values will continue to leave countless teens and adults to be victimized by your words of fear and perpetuated by uninformed bigots. Thanks for all of the hate and fear you spread among your fellow humans. Thanks for allowing me to feel lower than life when I was reaching out for Jesus. You had quite an impact on my life, I hope you are happy with your efforts. May God bless your family and thanks for the wonderful blessings of hate you graced this world with. I am so happy that the weak leadership of this country has aligned themselves with the moral conservatives of this society. America you have now what you deserve.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:34 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:34

Norrie Hoyt:
Hayden,

Of course no poster here would make negative comments directly to Jerry Falwell's wife or children. The family is a private sphere that should be sacrosanct.

Jerry Falwell made himself a figure in the public sphere. This forum is a part of the public sphere. J.F. spoke in the same terms as those who condemn him here. Tit for tat - Fair is fair.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:35 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:35

Bill:
A respone to those mean-spirited, self-indulgent people who have written such angry comments...

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Cor. 1:18-25)

As Pascal said, "In truth, it is the glory of religion to have for enemies men so unreasonable; and their opposition to it is so little dangerous that it serves, on the contrary, to establish its truths. For the Christian faith goes mainly to establish these two facts: the corruption of nature, and redemption by Jesus Christ. Now I contend that, if these men do not serve to prove the truth of the redemption by the holiness of their behaviour, they at least serve admirably to show the corruption of nature by sentiments so unnatural."

Posted May 15, 2007 4:38 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:38

Gail:
I am shocked by the hatred that is being spewed. We don't all have to agree, but I find it ironic that those who hate right wing conservative Christians are so full of hate and intolerance...but isn't that what they are accusing us of. I too am thankful for Dr. Falwell and the legacy he leaves.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:38 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:38

Anonymous:
After the September 11, 2001 attacks, Falwell said on the 700 Club, "I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'"

Posted May 15, 2007 4:38 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:38

Michael:
It is quite amazing that those on this board who claim Falwell was intolerant are themselves full of hate and intolerance. The irony is thick.

Dr. Falwell did make mistakes, but he helped awaken many Americans to see what they previously didn't: The killing of more than 1 million unborn babies each year. His legacy was seen just weeks ago, when Justices Alito and Roberts helped form the majority ruling in the partial-birth abortion decision.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:38 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:38

Mark:
"I am outraged at the cruel, insensitive, amoral, blasphemous bigots that have posted to this site insulting and defaming the worthy character of a man like Jerry Falwell."

I'm not. I rather expected it. Falwell was simply a country Baptist preacher - no more and no less. He was not unique, but rather a representative of the culture he came from. Many of his stances concerning sex and gender are currently shared by the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy, although articulated in a softer tone than he used.

And I can tell you from experience, we all get called "cruel, insensitive, amoral, blasphemous bigots" when we take issue with many of the sex and gender positions that seem to obsess the left.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:39 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:39

Bw:
The founding member of the Christian Taliban is dead. Hallelujah! Hopefully Pat is not far behind, God willing.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:40 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:40

Anonymous:
Fred Phelps next please.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:41 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:41

Diane:
Amazing. The buzzwords being thrown out left and right are making my head spin. Intolerant? Bigoted? Homophobic? By definition, your vitriolic spewing over this man even after death belies your own sad inward state. You are so blind in sin, you cannot even tell your right hand from your left, let alone the fact that your hatred for Falwell completely negates any stake you claim to have on the moral highground. Why dont you all try to have an original thought...heck, original WORDS for once, without resorting to the canned psuedo-intellectual-psychological catch phrases you've overheard other people use. Remember the maxim: tell a lie enough times and it starts to seem like truth. Examine yourselves, as we all must.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:41 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:41

Anonymous:
Good riddance.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:41 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:41

Rich:
Over the past three decades your church has allied itself with the forces of ignorance and hatred that pervert the authentic message of Christ in favor of your local-southern-politics version of the message of Christ that you want to hear. You may be a modest and well-behaved man, but the attack your movement makes on any of us who don't follow your beliefs is unchristian and makes you a participant in evil. Consider carefully why so many good people who write here have reason to fear and hate you and your church. Falwell was wrong and you were wrong to support or befriend him, and your church is wrong to bend Christianity against love and toward hate. You are wrong, wrong, wrong, and I hope you live to see it in time...

Posted May 15, 2007 4:41 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:41

Not Hypocrites:
There is no hypocricy here among people celebrating this man's death, and to those who say otherwise, you gravely misunderstand the word "tolerence." Tolerance as a creed is reserved only for beliefs and behavior that do no harm to others -- it is a "live and let live" philosophy. A belief in tolerance is fundamental to liberty, but it does not demand moral relativism or apathy towards evil. It most certainly does not require us to shed a tear for the death of a vile man who sought to persecute homosexuals and victims of aids.

Jerry Falwell was an evil man.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:43 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:43

Karen:
Some of you have reproached other posters here for condemning a man they didn't know. That's a valid point -- none of us knew or met Jerry Falwell, so we can't actually say with authority whether he was a terrible person or not.

But I also would say that Falwell never knew or met any of the homosexuals, lesbians, feminists, ACLU members, etc. that he accused of bringing down on this country the events of 9/11.

Yes, we are intolerant of Jerry Falwell and his believes. But only because he was intolerant of us.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:43 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:43

Karen:
Some of you have reproached other posters here for condemning a man they didn't know. That's a valid point -- none of us knew or met Jerry Falwell, so we can't actually say with authority whether he was a terrible person or not.

But I also would say that Falwell never knew or met any of the homosexuals, lesbians, feminists, ACLU members, etc. that he accused of bringing down on this country the events of 9/11.

Yes, we are intolerant of Jerry Falwell and his beliefs. But only because he was intolerant of us.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:43 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:43

UltraLiberal:
I suppose I like others who disliked Jerry Falwell the first reaction might be to delight in his passing. But on second reflection, though, even though I disliked Falwell tremendously and disagreed with everything he said and stood for delighting in his passing would perpetuate his hate filled and devisive ways. So, instead, I offer my condolences to Jerry Falwell's family members.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:44 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:44

jg:
Diane - - get laid, would you?

Posted May 15, 2007 4:44 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:44

Flabergasted:
The man was a vile piece of trash, the worst type of demagogue that this country seems so adept at regularly cranking out. For those folks accusing others of spitting on his grave, that's more than he would have ever done for anybody else that didn't fit into his vision of a white, theocratic U.S. of A.

Trying to somehow separate Falwell's message of hatred, bigotry and racism from the person is like trying to separate the Final Solution from Hitler.

"Oh, while I didn't agree with Hitler's policies vis-a-vis the Jews, he did some great things, like building the Autobahn. We should really not take this time to speak ill of him."

Unreal. The so-called reverend was as much a man of the Bible as Osama Bin Laden is a man of the Koran.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:44 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:44

Anonymous:
So who gets his stuff?

Posted May 15, 2007 4:45 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:45

Mr.Jesus:
Ohh yea jerry f. the arrogant, ignorant, self-righteous, holier than thou, everyone who doesn’t believe the way I do is the anti-Christ, hate-bag.

A person like this is an icon and symbol of Christianity?

He was a "christian-wahabi" as I like to call these hetefilled Bigots.

Posted May 15, 2007 4:45 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:45

so long:
So long sucker. Where is jesus now you silly bigot?

Posted May 15, 2007 4:45 PM

Posted on May 15, 2007 16:45

Levi:
"God is a Republican" - Jerry Falwell - 1979

"Jesus was the First American." - Jerry Falwell - circa 1977

"I do question the sincerity of people like the Reverend Martin Luther King..." Jerry Falwell - 1965

"Archbishop Desmond Tutu is a phony." - Jerry Falwell - August 24, 1985

"The Beast (The Antichrist) when comes he must be, of necessity, a Jewish male" - Jerry Falwell - 2006

"I hope to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we don't have public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them." - Jerry Falwell - 1979

"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'" - Jerry Falwell - September 2001

"The (gay-oriented) Metropolitan Community Churches are brute beasts and a vile and Satanic system that will one day be utterly annihilated and there will be a celebration in heaven..." - Jerry Falwell - 1984

Catholic asks:
"how can anyone put their hate or anger in writing and post it anywhere and claim justification for doing so"

Ghostbuster answers:

get attacked-return fire-justify response

get attacked-return fire-justify response

get attacked-return fire-justify response

get attacked-return fire-justify response

Each time we fall deeper into the trap.

The only way to a higher level of spirituality as some people here claim to be interested in attaining, or freedom as I would call it is to break this cycle.

"Yeah, It stinks bad. And we all covered up in it too. Ain't nobody clean. Be nice to get clean, though." - D.W. in Glory

It is amazing how intolerant and hateful those who claim to be the most tolerant can be. They cloak themselves in robes of tolerance to justify their sins. Although I do not agree with all that Jerry said or did I have never heard Jerry Falwell say the hateful things that the majority of people are saying about him on this thread. He stood against what he believed God's word said is evil but I heard him say many times that he loved all people but hated the sin that was destroying them and the nation. We all will stand before God's judgment seat and all who are spewing hatred on this thread will give an account for their murderous rants.

His views were pure poison and caused considerable harm.

As my secular friends like to say about Falwell and his fellow henchmen, "Jesus must be spinning in his grave."

In my experience, fundamentalists like Falwell are the ones that read everything in the Bible as literal unless Jesus said it. Often more willing to defend the existence of Noah's Ark or a seven day creation than the sermon on the mount.

I'm not happy he's dead, but neither am i upset he won't have the opportunity to work against the Kingdom as I believe he had. But who knows, maybe in his final seconds before death he saw the light and came to truly know Chrsit.

Never knew, nor heard much of Falwell, so I'll sit this one out & just watch.

Must say, though, for someone who said she/he wouldn't say much Norrie Hoyt sure said.............

A Lot!

(But then that's a good lawyer trick, isn't it? "M'lud* let me just say one thing before I sit down," and twenty minutes later he's still jawing.)

*Short for My Lord. This is England.

Oh, and Mr. Mark, next time round anytime you want to discuss why atheism *is* a creed--I would call it atheology--I'm your gal.

"Leftism=narrow-mindedness."

So disagreeing with Right wing sensationalized "Christian" smoke-screens and dogma makes someone ignorant. I am sure that would have sat well with the founding fathers who believed in tolerating a multitude of viewpoints.

Sincerely,

a fellow hypocrite

Regardless of one's feelings toward Mr. Falwell, regardless of what he did or said, regardless of whether one agrees with what Mr. Falwell did or said, how can anyone put their hate or anger in writing and post it anywhere and claim justification for doing so?

It is one thing to disagree, it is another to spread hatred. Honest disagreement and honest debate can lead to understanding. Hate only leads to the decay of the hater. Spreading anger and hate is like spewing pollution.

No matter what your faith or moral pretext, one can only have peace when one shows compassion. If one feels their position is the higher authority, then what will convince other's - a demonstration of hate, or a demonstration of understanding and compassion. Which would you rather have given to you?

May Mr. Falwell rest in peace. May the good he worked to accomplish flourish, may his human mistakes be instruments of learning to inspire those who try to spread peace and joy to a restless world. May God treat us all with mercy and compassion, for we are all human and we all make mistakes.

I am saddened to see so many of you who are bitter towards someone who preached the truth. He hated and was intolerant of the sin not the sinner. How can some of you be so proud and ignorant as to think he was speaking of you as the person? Our sins make us bitter and hateful and we want to hide in the dark. Falwell shed some light on you and you lashed out in defense of your sins and in defense of satan. You must break free from the bonds of your sins and we all must and follow the only true salvation, Jesus Christ.

This is one of the first times that I can truly understand why some people believe in god and why religions all have an eternal redemption as part of their creed. A man like Jerry Falwell did more harm on the planet than good and the world would have been a better place without him. Unfortunately, he was rewarded with success, fame and wealth. Now he is dead and I wouldn't wish him harm in the afterlife but I sure would have loved to see a good, stern, scolding from some supreme master. Unfortunately in this situation, god isn't real, heaven and hell don't exist and it is up to us, in this lifetime, to counteract men like Jerry Falwell and speak up for the true values of society. Not values written by ignorant men 2,000 years ago but with the improved moral and social values of modern times.

Another quote:

I have suffered a great deal from writers who have quoted this or that sentence of mine either out of its context or in juxtaposition to some incongruous matter which quite distorted my meaning , or destroyed it altogether.

-- Alfred North Whitehead

Can you FEEL the tolerance on these posts, brothers and sisters? Shout "hallelujah" as you revel in the fall of Falwell. Give me a big "amen" as you lynch the Lynchburgers.

"One's cosmology must be adequate."

-- Alfred North Whitehead

I looked up the supposed find of Noah's ark.

First of all, there's no way a boat of that size could hold a mating pair of every species in the world, plus a 40-day supply of fodder for the herbivorous species, plus extra herbivores for the carnivorous species to eat, plus a 40-day food supply for Noah and his family, plus a 40-day supply of fresh water for all aboard.
Second, and perhaps more important, it contained titanium alloy rivets. Now where would Noah have gotten those? Home Depot?
Third, tar that was still soft enough to be vulnerable to fingernails would not have made a watertight seal. If the tar had not cured by the time the rain started, the ark would have leaked and sunk faster than the Titanic.

WHERE IS DR. FALWELL NOW???? DO YOU KNOW?

He woke up yesterday morning like every other day and never expected it would be his last.

What about YOU? When will YOU die? Today? Tomorrow? This Year?

Please ask yourself this question "WHEN I DIE, WILL I GO TO HEAVEN?"

And then ponder the answer. PLEASE, PLEASE ponder the answer.

God has provided a way for EVERYONE to go to Heaven. But.....

We must realize we've sinned against him (we ALL have) and that Jesus' sacrifice paid for those sins. That's all. God is gracious to ALL who believe that.

PLEASE CONSIDER THIS NOW. You do not know when your heart will beat it's last beat.

Dear Lucas -

Religion is the outright theft of our innate goodness.

Man's morals evolved in pre-history and were a universal truism before religion raised its ugly head, made man the object of its hatred and claimed man's morals as its own.

Religion's morals are a cheap imitation of that which evolved within us, without god and without religion.

When you speak of the moral code of the Bible, you're speaking of the law. Even the hallowed 10 Commandments are useless without a penalty for breaking them. The Bible says "honor your mother and father." Implicit in that is, "or else." In the case of the Bible, that "or else" isn't, "or you may have to eat popsicles for the next week." No, the "or else" is that parents should stone to death their sassy children.

But as horrible as the OT is, it's nothing compared to the NT. In the OT, if you were an enemy of the Hebrew god, you faced death and extinction. Hell, god even told Israel HOW to kill his enemies. But once you were dead, you were dead and your existence was over. It took the loving Jesus of the NT to come up with the idea of an ETERNITY of torment for god's enemies. Isn't that special?

I think that about covers the "morality" of the whole Bible.

Jerry Falwell never hated the homosexual.

Warning someone who is about to leap off of a cliff is not my definition of hatred - but of love.

Jerry risked ridicule and scorn from those who never cared to listen to what he was saying and he got more than his share of ridicule. But he himself never mocked them back. Everyone who knew him said he was a kind man, a loving man, one who had a genuine care for the spiritually lost.

Jerry was instrumental in my becoming a Christian. I hope one day I myself will be able to stand up to mindless criticism and foolish mocking with the same class that he had.

Thank you Jerry for your Godly example.

Falwell was a reprehensible hatemonger, but I do not celebrate his death. The world has enough hate and intolerance in it already without me adding to it.

Jerry Falwell was a great man of God who proclaimed truth and truly loved all people. As a Reformed Baptist, I did not agree with all he said or did. But I am convinced that he is my brother in Christ. Thank you, Dr. Molher for the wonderful eulogy of this person. He will be missed by many. Let us pray for his family and friends as they grieve this loss.

My heart aches that he continues to be hated by those who dispised Truth.

My pastor died Tuesday morning. I knew him because I took the time to listen to him and to work along side him toward common goals. Reading some of the offensive posts here, I realize how different his daily life had been from the hateful people like many who have posted here. This string of posts may be the clearest example of the difference between belief systems of hate and belief systems of love. I'll miss my pastor, but we will continue his legacy of loving those who hate us because Jesus' love is big enough to include everyone.

After reading all of these comments I have a choice. I can take the side of a bunch of people who rejoice in a man's death, speak words of hatred, live lifestyles of immorality or I can choose to take the side of a man who lived a righteous life and helped single mothers, built a church that ministered to thousands and built a university that educated tens of thousands. It is such a hard choice.

To all the Christians posting on this thread -

Guys, the "tolerant are being intolerant" argument is worn out and ready for the trash heap. Whether it's true or not, it doesn't matter. Everyone is intolerant to a degree. It's in our sinful natures. The goal here is not tolerance, it is truth. Truth always triumphs in the face of adversity. "Can't we all just get along" just doesn't work. I Corinthians 1:18 makes this clear.

This discussion is a disgrace. If you're not embarassed, then you should be - the vast majority of you.

The fact of the matter is that a true Christian would not revel in the death of a Richard Dawkins. He or she would have a very broken heart about the matter. While Dawkins would not be missed, it would be a tragedy for him to die without knowing Christ. True Christians do not rejoice in the death of others.

The same cannot be said for many unbelievers here who dance on Falwell's grave, or the believers and those who call themselves believers who use this occasion to condemn people you don't even know to hell.

You all sound like children.

The whole lot of you sit at your computers and write these hateful words to one another whilst trumpeting the death of a man you knew only through soundbites.

Grow up.

"For all those who hate Jerry Falwell and all Bible-believing Christians - we do not hate you."

No, you don't hate us, you just try to enlist the state to invade our bedrooms, and punish those of us who don't follow rules you got from an old book.

We non-Fundies should be more understanding and TOLERANT of the poor misunderstood Evangelicals.

All they're asking is that we let them invade our privacy, and rule our lives and our families according to their superstitions.

Mr. Mark writes:

"Why can't you religionists give man credit for what he has achieved as a species?"

First off, you are correct. Man DID develop his own morals and one day he will be judged for those morals by a holy God.

Secondly, please show me the evidence of how man's morality has "evolved" (i.e. improved) over time, given all that is happening in the world right now. The truth is that man is as corrupt now as he has ever been. This corruption seems to know no bounds. It is so extreme that man has even committed great acts of evil in the name of religion or their concept of a god.

Third, if your understanding of the morals in the Bible is limited to stoning children, then I would redirect your challenge back to you. I would challenge YOU to truly understand the morality of the Bible....the WHOLE Bible.

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."

Very amusing all the people quoting "John 15" to suggest that Falwell was "not of this world", because he attracts criticism and hatred for his bigotry.

If being hated by the world is a sign of holiness, Adolf Hitler must have been a bloody saint.

Mr. Mark writes...

"Gee, let me think. Could it be that some of us know by experience that using our real names in a public forum (blogs, op-ed pages in the local paper) often leads to hate mail and death threats from anonymous Christians? Yep. I've been there, done that. I've had death threats from Jesus' friends from all over the country in the past. Ever had to change your home phone number 3 times in a single year because some loving Xian spat swear words at your 5-year-old when they picked up the phone, telling them they were going to hell? I have.

Does that answer your question, Lucas?"

Oh and I forgot to mention all the anonymous posters too. Now let's get real honest for a moment. Most of the first name/screen name/anonymous posters on this thread aren't trying to avoid some kind of persecution. What they are trying to do is take pot shots at a dead man without having to face the fire of debate over what they said. They don't want to take responsibility for their own words. That's intellectual cowardice. This is true for both people calling themselves Christians as well as those who do not.

Lucas Defalco writes:
"Funny how most of the folks spewing their hate about Jerry Falwell here don't bother posting their first and last names. Goes to show the courage of their convictions I guess. Hey, Al Mohler isn't afraid to let people know what he thought about Jesus Christ. Jerry Falwell certainly didn't care. So why do you hide behind screen names and first names?"

Gee, let me think. Could it be that some of us know by experience that using our real names in a public forum (blogs, op-ed pages in the local paper) often leads to hate mail and death threats from anonymous Christians? Yep. I've been there, done that. I've had death threats from Jesus' friends from all over the country in the past. Ever had to change your home phone number 3 times in a single year because some loving Xian spat swear words at your 5-year-old when they picked up the phone, telling them they were going to hell? I have.

Does that answer your question, Lucas?

Larissa writes:

"It is not our responsiblity as Christians to prove the existence of a Great Savior. It is the unbelievers responisbility to logically and cleary explain where your moral compass is founded if in fact God is a figment? Who told the first monkey it was wrong to kill? Why do your love your wife? Your kids? If there is no God and the Bible is false, why care what Falwell did or said? Who really cares? But the truth is that their is a God that sets morality and you all are, every human being, is revealing in their own words and actions that truth is only found in the God of the Bible."

Childish drivel.

Morality evolved in man over the eons. "Moral" behavior may be observed throughout the animal kingdom. Do apes and monkeys get their morals from god?

We have morals because tens of thousands of years ago, we learned the value of family and community. What started as a survival instinct grew into community.

I DARE you to follow the morality of the Bible. Stone your children when they sass back, for example.

Pick up a science book, or maybe Hitchens's latest. But spare us the non-factual arrogance that posits a non-existant being as the root of our morals. We developed our morals on our own, and it's really quite a beautiful thing if you think about it. God isn't necessary to the equation.

If you need a god to tell you to love your wife and kids, then you are at base a truly immoral person.

Why can't you religionists give man credit for what he has achieved as a species?

Funny how most of the folks spewing their hate about Jerry Falwell here don't bother posting their first and last names. Goes to show the courage of their convictions I guess. Hey, Al Mohler isn't afraid to let people know what he thought about Jesus Christ. Jerry Falwell certainly didn't care. So why do you hide behind screen names and first names?

So far I have read Jerry Falwell being accussed in this thread of stealing money (which he never did), committing adultery (which he never did), hating gays and blacks (which never happened, he only hated sin but if people identify themselves by their sin hey that's their problem), and falsifying educational creditials (which never happened - accreditation is no gaurantee of a good education).

I felt that these words - written by Daniel Dennett in a review of Christopher Hitchen's new book, "god is Not Great" - were appropriate to this discussion:

"In earlier ages reliable information was rather hard to get, and in general people could be excused for taking the founding myths of their religions on faith. These were the "facts" that "everyone knew," and anybody who had a skeptical itch could check it out with the local priest or rabbi or imam, or other religious authority. Today, there is really no excuse for such ignorance. It may not be your fault if you don't know the facts about the history and tenets of your own religion, but it is somebody's fault. Or more charitably, perhaps we have all been victimized by an accumulation of tradition that strongly enjoins us to lapse into a polite lack of curiosity about these facts, for fear of causing offense. It is rude, after all, to point out somebody's ignorance or gullibility. Besides, if you start calling attention to the frankly incredible creeds and deeds of other religions, they may retaliate and expose some of the embarrassing signs of all-too-human tampering with the heroic tales and traditions of your own tribe."

Anonymous writes:
"Mr. Mark:

Don't heap condemnation on yourself with ill-spoken words. Think."

Your life is full of fear. Mine isn't. Your admonitions are childish tremblings.

You're condemming yourself to a life based on fairy tales. If YOU would bother to think, your fears would go away.

Let loose the shackles of religion! It's time to give up childish things.

Today as I heard on the news of Dr. Falwell's passing I was honestly thinking how amazed he is right now at the Great Glory of the Lord. How trivial and vein it is for us to spew out these uncharitable and self serving ideas. How many of you that claim to know the ministry of Christ have actually read the Bible? Those quoting scripture out of contex for your own personal vanity and gain, have you studied the Greek and Hebrew of the original Languages? Have you been amazed and humbled by His grace? Jerry Falwell was amongst all believers a sinner saved by a Gracious Savior. He like all of us have said things that were sinful and wrong. Non of us are absolved of sin with out His righteousness. Non of us are moral, unless He imputes His morality on us. Read the Bible, don't just quote what you have heard or heard someone else espousing. Go to the source and see the great mercy of Christ as it was revealed to mankind. See what Falwell saw, His own wicked heart before a great, glorious and holy God, who CHOSE to have mercy on this race of base human beings, whose hearts are revealed in the overflow of their words.

It is not our responsiblity as Christians to prove the existence of a Great Savior. It is the unbelievers responisbility to logically and cleary explain where your moral compass is founded if in fact God is a figment? Who told the first monkey it was wrong to kill? Why do your love your wife? Your kids? If there is no God and the Bible is false, why care what Falwell did or said? Who really cares? But the truth is that their is a God that sets morality and you all are, every human being, is revealing in their own words and actions that truth is only found in the God of the Bible. You prove to me, and to your self, although you don't relish the sight of your own wicked heart, that the reason why we are all engaging in a great debate over the life of a man is in reality grounded in the truths of Scripture "Men loved the darkness more than light because their deeds were evil" John 3:19.

this is all very amusing. The last time I checked tolerance and acceptance are two different things you left-wingers don't seem to understand. I never exactly agreed with Mr Falwell's approach or delivery, but I'm pretty sure he did more good than bad. I, like millions of other people, can be tolerant of people of other "beliefs", "lifestyles", etc... However, that does NOT mean I have to accept them. There's a difference between being tolerant and accepting that we need a new class of people entitled to preferential treatment. That's where I think liberals miss the boat so much. I tolerate someone's "choice". I just will NEVER accept it. There's quite a difference between the two. Mr. Falwell knew that. RIP Mr Falwell.

For those of you who hate Dr. Falwell so much, because of the 'intolerant' and 'hateful' remarks that he made, why aren't you practicing the kind and gentle words that you think he should have used? If it's that important to you, then you must believe that it is wrong to say intolerant and hateful things.
If you wanted Dr. Falwell to practice what he preached, then why aren't you practicing what you are preaching?
If you think he is destined for hell (he believed his sins were forgiven) then what does that mean for you?
There's a saying we're all familiar with..."if you have nothing good to say, then say nothing at all."
I have nothing else to say.

this seems to be ringing true right about now.

John 15

18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers. Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee. But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.

Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.

A little more gasoline on the fire: Wikipedia's entry on Falwell, which cites references for (among other things) his longstanding and outspoken support of apartheid and the fact - FACT - that he was responsible for faking "evidence" against Bill Clinton in a 1994 documentary he produced. (Bear False Witness much, reverend?) The 9/11 thing and the great Teletubby kerfluffle have been done to death, soI won't even go there.

I will say that the last time I checked, "taking the name of the Lord in vain" was a sin. I don't believe this refers to saying "goddamit!" when you hammer your finger. I believe it refers to actually taking the name of God, i.e. claiming that you are acting in His name, when you are clearly not. Do not mistake Falwell's obvious sincerity of belief with righteousness, or even sanity. I am sorry for his family's grief. I'm sure he was nice enough in person. I'm sure he loved his children and God as he perceived Him. But the fact is that the man made choices in life which are absolutely opposite of the faith he professed. He did not -follow- God, he -redefined- God to suit his own ideas and prejudices - truly taking God's name in vain in the worst way. Worse still, he drug a lot of impressionable, frustrated Christians with him.

"By their fruits shall ye know them."

What a junk blog!

Hey, JB, Please keep in mind - criticizing Falwell is not the same as criticizing Christ.

You fault Falwell for intolerance of those he disagreed with! Read these comments!!! You're the most intolerant, christophobic, bigoted, insensitive group I've ever read.

Be careful of faulting Falwell for the same thing you're doing.

You fault Falwell for intolerance of those he disagreed with! Read these comments!!! You're the most intolerant, christophobic, bigoted, insensitive group I've ever read.

Be careful of faulting Falwell for the same thing you're doing.

Dr. Falwell mastered the 10 second sound bite. A man of amazing energy; lots of personal friends. He didn't seem to bothered about being one of the most hated men in America.

I kinda liked him.

Today was the first time I ever read CNN about a celeb that was ill and thought, "Die, please."

Thank you, Jesus.

Getting in on this discussion as late as I am, I was only able to take the time to read the first 25-30 posts. Wow, what a predatory and, as one blogger asserted, "heterophobic" lot most of you are. I can understand why many of you disliked Jerry Falwell, i.e., he wasn't a live-and-let-live kind of guy. I'm sure life for him and his family would have been much easier had he have been. But what most of you either don't, or won't, understand is that no one who is committed to preaching, indeed in even knowing, the ENTIRE truth of God's Word has a real choice in the matter. Jerry Falwell wasn't perfect, but I have no doubt that he was primarily motivated by a sincere desire to reach as many people as possible with the good news (the gospel) of Jesus Christ. For that, he is, and should be, appreciated by many. As for you political and theological liberals, who insist so much on "tolerance," about all I can say to you, without fully engaging you on your level, is to try practicing what you preach.

---
“Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan in America”
-jerry falwell
---
I'm not fan of Billy's (or Falwell's for that matter) but that up there is pretty harsh. Plus, I believe that quote was issued back when Black Sabbath was still in business and coming to America for tours so I'm sure they took no small amount of offense at it.

---
“If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being”
-jerry falwell
---
Harsh, but ultimately true.

---
“Textbooks are Soviet propaganda”
-jerry falwell
---
How do you know some at the time he allegedly said that weren't?

---
“[homosexuals are] brute beasts...part of a vile and satanic system [that] will be utterly annihilated, and there will be a celebration in heaven.”
-jerry falwell
-----
They won't be the only ones, but, yes, true insofar as it goes.

Most "christians" don't live what Jesus practiced and preached....to do unto others as you have them do unto you. You don't want to be judged? then don't judge others. What gives a Christian the right to judge those outside of the church? Certainly, not the bible:
---
That's not *all* He taught. He affirmed every letter of the Old Testament. Jesus gives grace and forgiveness (the New Covenant), but His very existence and ministry are warnings of what sin brings. If you think Jesus is tolerant of sin, reread the Gospels and Revelation. Meanwhile, take your "warm fuzzy" interpretation of the Bible somewhere else.

I don't believe all this insensitive, character bashing would bother Dr. Falwell at all. It didn't bother him when he was alive and now that he is in the presence of the Lord I'm sure he has realized it was all worth while! These slandering blogs are only evidence that he has and will continue to touch many souls that need Christ. How do I know, well, if I hated someone as much as many of these writers hate Dr. Falwell I wouldn't waste my time writing blogs about them and showing my ignorance. The Bible states that God's Word is foolishness to those that don't know Him and it is pretty obvious many writing do not. Dr. Falwell was a happy man, always smiling. God blessed him richly and used him greatly and that is evident in the legacy he leaves behind. He touched and helped mold many young lives to help spread the Gospel and to make them greater followers of Christ. As for someone implying a degree from LU is worthless, well, that just sounds like lots of jealousy and jealousy is the green eyed monster (which we are obviously getting a great view of in these blogs). I imagine Dr. Falwell is in Heaven, smiling and asking his Holy Savior to forgive them for they know not what they do. My prayer is that all of you showing your bitterness, hatred, and loneliness will come to the saving knowledge of our Lord and Savior so like Dr. Falwell you can be happy, smile, and spend eternity in Paradise. If you want to meet the Jesus Dr. Falwell is with right now but don't know how - read Romans 10:9,10 & 13 or visit Liberty mountain and someone will definitely be happy to lead you to the Lord.

A great man remembered! So unlike those small minds that continue to denigrate him.

Falwell was a lot of things to a lot of people. But it seems that few people making comments here know about the home for single moms he built, the recovery center for alcoholics or the multi-million dollar children's home he and his wife built and paid for. The hypocrites have come out of the woodwork. It seems that tolerance is for everyone except the conservative Christian. How sad for each of you.

U know It Nots/McDaniels

You sound like a fraud to me. You were an atheist but thought God hated you? Sorry - Atheists don't think that something they don't believe in can hate them.

What I've noticed is that disengenuous "Christians" often start out their tear-jerking story of their path to salvation
saying they were atheists who eventually found their way to the Lord.

Please forgive me if your story is genuine. And if it is, I wish you were not so dedicated to Jerry Falwell. There are good Christians in this world and I don't think he was one of them.

oh sorry, I seem to have missed this gem-- "concequinces." Awesome.

there aint nothin wrong with hate speech, as long as it is directed to non-believers. The bible says that and so does jesus and my preacher.

So all y'all liberal homo, commie muslims out there. You will suffer the concequinces on the lifes y'all live.
>>

Marge, you're a wonderful comedian. Jah bless you.

oh sorry, I seem to have missed this gem-- "concequinces." Awesome.

there aint nothin wrong with hate speech, as long as it is directed to non-believers. The bible says that and so does jesus and my preacher.

So all y'all liberal homo, commie muslims out there. You will suffer the concequinces on the lifes y'all live.
>>

Marge, you're a wonderful actress. Jah bless you.

Jesus hates all of y'all liberal, homo commie's. This country would be best served to hang all of y'all. The Reverend Jerry was a great man and he was right to stand up aginst you liberal, homo commies. He was right to say that YOU ARE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL, right along with the muslims and all non-believers.

Lord, i ask you to give me strength to defend myself against all these evil people. We're in our last days dear lord and i wanna come home to you, sweet jesus. Protect brother falwell. i'm glad he gets to be home with youm lord. >>

^^ ha ha, this is the best impersionation of a lunatic I have seen all day!

Marge dear, could you please post more of these rants? They are priceless.

"Laurie: Wow, there is no hatred in this group of bloggers. You all talk about man of hatred and listen to yourselves. Talk about blasphemy. You will all rot in hell."

Laurie, I thought that in the Christian faith the only being that can judge the eternal soul of people is God? Notice the critics of J.F. are saying "I HOPE he rots". No one claims specific knowledge. But if it makes you feel better to proclaim it, fine. Everyone will find out what really happens when they die at that time, when they die.

Secondly, my only other issue with this article and the few supporters on this blog is they are calling him "Dr." Jerry Falwell. Um, last time I checked he did not graduate from any accredited or even from a non-accredited school with a Doctorate, hell, he didn't even get a Masters Degree from any place. The only Doctorate he claimed was a couple honorary ones from NON-ACCREDITED schools. So please, can you all stop with with Dr. B-S? It's insulting to those who have worked to make that accomplishment legitimately.

And finally, I just wanted to add that while I did not agree with ANYTHING the man stood for, and I understand some of you reacting to his intolerance of lifestyles not in accordance with HIS OWN beliefs; can we please take the moral high ground? This childish behavior is really making the lefts look bad.

Another multimillionaire dies. For shame. He didn't even have time to give away all his worldly possessions so as not to be rich. Certainly will be tough getting that fat camel through the eye of a needle.

Larry Flynt remembers Jerry Falwell with kindness and has out-classed almost every poster on this thread.

"My mother always told me that no matter how much you dislike a person, when you meet them face to face you will find characteristics about them that you like. Jerry Falwell was a perfect example of that. I hated everything he stood for, but after meeting him in person, years after the trial, Jerry Falwell and I became good friends. ... I always appreciated his sincerity even though I knew what he was selling and he knew what I was selling." - Hustler magazine founder Larry Flynt.

Mr. Mark:

Don't heap condemnation on yourself with ill-spoken words. Think.

response to Aaron was mine- I sometimes forget to sign

AAron: "I truly hope that all who made such comments do not have to face such remarks when they lose their Fathers, brothers, uncles, or any family members to death."

My father didn't go on national television and blame me for 9/11. Ny father doesn't refer to me as a failed human being because I don't worship the same god he does. When a good friend of mine tested HIV positive, my father didn't declare that he deserved it for supporting gay rights.
My fathe has behaved all his life in a respectful and respectable manner. That's why he will be missed when h dies. Jerry Falwell made a career out of hate mongering. That's why he isn't missed.

Grace By God writes:
"Sadly, there are a lot of lost souls posting on this thread. We pray for your salvation."

The arrogance is stunning, equalled only by the ignorance.

"Wow, the heterophobes are restless. Dr. Falwell loved all kinds of people, regardless of thier rebellion against thier Creator."

Yes, it is sad. Falwell was a brilliant, creative man with a dynamic personality, a born leader. He could have been the gay equivalent of Martin Luther King. How tragic that he wasted so much potential in quiet frustration as just one more self-loathing gay-baiting closet queen. I would pray for his soul, but it's probably too late. There's little doubt that he's already a spitting image of a deep-fried turkey down in one of them there lakes of fire.

"Wow, the heterophobes are restless. Dr. Falwell loved all kinds of people, regardless of thier rebellion against thier Creator."

Yes, it is sad. Falwell was a brilliant, creative man with a dynamic personality, a born leader. He could have been the gay equivalent of Martin Luther King. How tragic that he wasted so much potential in quiet frustration as just one more self-loathing gay-baiting closet queen. I would pray for his soul, but it's probably too late. There's little doubt that he's already a spitting image of a deep-fried turkey down in one of them there lakes of fire.

I am surprised at the inability of people to stop and look at themselves. This board is full of comments that in the most hateful, vitriolic, incendiary, venomous tones decry hatred, intolerance, polarization, etc. We are like people who "look in a mirror and walk away immediately forgetting what we look like."

Sadly, there are a lot of lost souls posting on this thread. We pray for your salvation.

So, Falwell died alone in his office. No one there to comfort him. No family around.

I wonder how many Xians on this board are willing to say that this was god's judgement on the man?

There are now rumors that he was a suicide. Think there will be an autopsy?

Falwell wasn't the most articulate man ever, I'll give you that.

But the hatred of those who are seeking special recognition and additional rights for people who practice a certain sexual act with members of the same gender is quite telling. These who preach against intolerance, but are active in promoting so-called "hate crimes" legislation that will penalize certain thoughts. Those wishing to push their "values" on everyone else do not appear to be coming mostly from the right. Just read the posts here to see that clearly.

Hate. Anger. Rank Hypocrisy. Unseemly behavior. These folks remind me of some one, oh yes, they remind me of Fred Phelps (an embarrassment to actual followers of Christ who follow the Scriptures).

My fellow commentors, your hatred is unbecoming.

"How anyone can feel anything but pity for the genuinely homosexual I will never know."
C.S. Lewis in The Four Loves

Like so many, I do not feel hatred of those trapped in homosexuality. I feel pity, because it is a lifestyle many wish to escape, but are told "it is natural" or "God made you that way." These are lies and the honest person knows it. I know this will be met by calls of ignorance, bigotry etc., but the truth, in love, must be spoken. I am a heterosexual who is inclined, like most, to have sex with every hot female I see. It is "how God made me." It is not, however, appropriate. Mankind left to his basic desires is no more good than a beast, and we all, everyone one of us, is made in the image of God.

God is love. Yes, but he is also just. My sins are not better than yours. We must all turn away from our sins and ask for forgiveness and for Jesus Christ's sacrifice to atone for our sins. Our sin is primarily our rejection of God, our "natural" rebellion and resentment at having to obey God's rules. Yes, I am sorry to report that the Creator of the universe has rules. The gospel is there for those who will say "I will follow Jesus" and turn away from there own way, to his.

Sorry this is so long. But I'm sure a few will be encouraged by it. I hope some struggling with any sin, homosexuality, adultery, pride, oppression of the poor, whatever, will turn to Jesus for forgiveness, grace, and the truth. Please read the actual word of God. www.esv.org is a good translation and right there on-line.

God bless you all.

Thanks Laura.
I'm sure you feel like a Queen.

Matthew McDaniel - -

Sorry to say but a degree from LU is worthless.

So are you. (you, too, LAH)

Matthew McDaniel, thank you for sharing your recent letter to Dr. Falwell on this forum. Your testimony is amazing and a testament to God's unfailing mercy and grace. From one LU grad to another, congratulations and best wishes to you and Kirsten on your upcoming wedding.

Greg: "Is this an Islamic website or something? It is funny that people like my brother are over in Iraq right now fighting so you ignorant extremist retards can spew this crap all over the internet."

The Iraqis were going to shut down the Internet? Well, I never. I just knew there had to be a reason for this war. Thanks for explaining.

As I listened to Dr. Mohler on my XM today and heard him mention that he was posting on Dr. Falwell on this forum, I immediately thought to myself that the champions of "tolerance" will be out in full force today, attacking Dr. Falwell for being intolerant in the most intolerant language possible. Unfortunately, my expectations were fulfilled. It never ceases to amaze me how intolerant "open-minded" liberals are.

Dear Dr. Falwell,
My name is Matthew McDaniel. I am 21 years old, a Philosophy major and graduating senior at Liberty University. I planned to share my story with you, to express my gratitude for your institution and what you do for God’s desire to reveal his Gospel to the world. I should start this letter as I will also end it, by saying thank you. A big thank you. My goal in sharing my story with you is your encouragement. This is evidence that your prayers, and those of thousands around the world, are being answered for Liberty.

I come from a broken home. My parents divorced when I was five years old, and for the majority of my childhood my mother raised my two sisters, my brother, and me by herself. My mother has been married four times. From the time I was ten until I was nineteen years old I did not speak with nor see my father. I was raised with the understanding that I was free to believe whatever I wanted, and from my point of view at the time I found it impossible to believe in a loving God that wanted a relationship with me when my own father was so distant and the lasting impression so painful. Therefore, early on, I decided upon atheism, though deep down I acted as if God were there, but must have hated me to allow my life to turn out the way it had become.

Around the time of my fifteenth birthday I was diagnosed with Ulcerative colitis. It went untreated, and put me in a hospital bed for three weeks. I nearly died. I missed a month and a half of my freshman year of high school. I lost fifty pounds in less than three weeks. I needed two blood transfusions to offset the months of internal bleeding. I was sure God wanted me to die. I had a disease, with no apparent cause or cure, with a case so severe that the only treatment was incredibly high doses of life-altering anti-inflammatory steroids and immunosuppressants. There was no reason for my being sick, as far as I was concerned, and just like everything else that had happened to me, it was entirely beyond my control or fault.

That I survived through it, and my family along with me, can now be understood as an answer to the many people, invisible to me then, who were praying for me. I wish I could tell you that during that tough time I was reconciled with my Dad again, but I wasn’t. He flew to Durham, North Carolina from Houston, Texas on a week’s notice, and I refused, in bitterness, to let him into my hospital room.

I wish I could tell you I was born again, reconciled with my heavenly Father after that. But I wasn’t. I chose to believe, instead, that there was certainly no God, much more fervently than before, and if there was, He wanted me dead, and I managed to escape His clutches. So I resolved to do whatever I could to fight submittal to this admittedly strong desire to stop running, to repent.

I blamed God, if there was one, for what had happened with my parents. I blamed God for the resulting fallout between father and son, and the resulting bitterness of my mother, which was fast imparted to her children. I blamed God for the illness, and went about the rest of high school as a devoted atheist, outspoken, and intimidating to the well-intentioned Christian kids who no doubt saw me as some kind of a challenge. They had no clue, however, about the enmity I held for their God.

I became everything that you stand against, Dr. Falwell. I was a liberal, and not even the well-meaning, informed, and diligent kind. I was an impressionable teenager. I read and inhaled Michael Moore and believed every word he said, before it was in vogue to do such a thing. I considered myself a socio-economic Marxist. I believed Nietzsche had written the last verdict on God, Darwin had written the last verdict on Creation, and was glad to be numbered among the many human animals that had descended from apes. Morality was cultural and subjective. CNN was always on my television. I wrote a monthly column in the youth section of my city newspaper and dreamed of writing for “The Nation.” I wanted to be an activist and an author, and on the side, attempt to throw down with evangelical Christians, who I felt were all morons and horribly misguided people. Religion was the true cause of evil in the world. Ralph Nader was my Jesus. Jesus was, if he even existed, a “good guy,” sort of the universal antithesis to Hitler, which seems to be an everyman’s approach to ethics nowadays.

My heart bled for the poor and disfranchised, though, even if I wasn’t challenged to do anything about it myself. I felt content in knowing I was informed about the issue without taking any real action. I would read of the plight of the third world, angry that our prosperous “Christian” nation didn’t lift a finger (completely unaware of the many people and dollars that evangelicals send out in aid, since it’s hardly publicized). I thought, “If these people are really following what Jesus said, then why are they so comfortable in their suburban fortresses? Why are they sitting, lame, and too lazy to stand up to people like me who challenge them?” It made me despise Christians, themselves. To me, they were hypocrites, more evil than the homosexuals and liberals they paraded against, and completely incapable of following through with the mission Jesus gave them (which I falsely equivocated with some kind of socialist gospel). The more I read, the more fuel I had to fight.

I read about you, too, Dr. Falwell. I was more aware of what you said after 9/11 and the overblown “Teletubby” fiasco than any of my Christian peers. I hated you and people like you. To me, you were backwards, dangerous even. To me, you were the enemy. I was going to attend a liberal state University and train to fight you. I wasn’t going to rest in just combating just the things you and people like you said in the media. I was going to read everything I could against the Christian faith and the God you purported to serve and destroy it all. I was more focused on that than most in our churches are at sharing Christ with the world and loving people while calling them to repentance. And on top of that, I was poorly read, like a baby armed with a hammer. But I could have been a threat. Imagine another Sam Harris with just enough ammunition to make young people angry but misinformed, stubborn enough to never change their minds. That was about to be me.

And then, as if it were fated, my family moved to Northern Virginia to live with our new step dad, who works as a defense contractor. Once I stepped foot outside of my home-sweet state of North Carolina, I lost my in-state residential status, and thus lost my shot at getting into UNC-Chapel Hill, the school of my dreams. Becoming the modern secular humanist warrior I wanted to be was now almost out of the question.

It was a time of distress. It was the first time there was a man in the house in over ten years. We moved right before my senior year of high school, and I was angry. I doubted I could even get accepted to a “good” college. My mother had plunged back deep into clinical depression. I asked how a loving God could have allowed my family to nearly tear apart at the seams. But even my anger couldn’t last, and soon it cooled into subtle despair. I was completely unaware that my life was about to change forever.

Once again, as if it were fated, four and a half years ago I met Kirsten Albrecht (whom I will be marrying in June). Though there was no good reason for a good Christian girl from a solid family to be dating a mess of a person such as myself, it happened. Not only was I smitten in a way I could hardly describe to you in words, but she had me captivated by how consistently she stood her ground against my attacks on her faith. She didn’t do it with scorn, but with love and patience. She was bold enough to tell me I was headed for hell. She was bold enough, only a few weeks after we started dating, to invite me to church with her family on Christmas Eve. And I was curious enough to go.

The church, Clear River Community Church in Centreville, meets in a middle school auditorium, and there are no more than 150 people there. That night, that church had the credit of being the first one I stepped into in almost ten years. I felt condemned, but not by the many loving people I met. I worried that God still wanted me dead, and that I was walking right into his house. What I found instead, by an act that I can only describe as purely spiritual and not reasonable, that God was real, and that He didn’t hate me. I also realized that I was more of a hypocrite than any Christian I judged in my heart. It seemed Romans 2 could fully apply to me, in that regard.

Over the course of the next few weeks I wrestled. Right after that church service, my mother admitted herself into the psychiatric ward at the local hospital for a few days, for fear of taking her life. I was left alone to consider what I had heard that night in light of my total emptiness. I read whatever I could in the Bible to find out more about this Jesus, whom I had superficially glossed over in my hatred of the God I thought I knew all about. Little did I know Jesus, in his character and person, is God Himself.

The youth leader at my church tried, to the best of his ability, to answer my questions, which are really everyone’s questions, and they would end up defining my approach to faith: is the Bible a reliable record? What about everyone else in the world who would be “wrong” in light of Jesus’ claims? What about science? And the big one: what about evil, especially in my life? I read Lee Strobel, I listened to Ravi Zacharias on the radio. I heard their reasoned defenses. I rejected the hopelessness of my nihilistic atheism. I was presented with an account of a man, who claimed to be God, died on the cross because He loved the world, and rose from the dead as proof. That it was true, eventually I couldn’t deny. Through the struggle, somewhere, somehow, I felt overwhelming love from the God I once thought wished death upon me. So, on a cold night in the middle of January 2003, after having read the entire book of Mark in one sitting, and knowing full well that Jesus was Lord, I got on my knees to pray, and was born again.

A lot of things happened after that, and I can’t do justice to them in a letter like this. I would spend late nights devouring the Bible by flashlight so I didn’t wake my brother. I went to church with Kirsten’s family every Sunday, and then in despair go back to a home that I felt was filled with forces of spiritual darkness. I resolved to pray, along with many others, that my family would be saved. I was baptized in September. My family was there, and the next month, after some intense conversations, my mother was saved. That November, Kirsten and I went to College for a Weekend and decided that the next fall we would be attending Liberty. By Christmas Eve my brother Christopher, a liberal and member of the Baha'i faith, was saved. (Chris is now a music major...at Liberty.)

Exactly one Christmas Eve after I had stepped foot into church, my entire family (mother, stepfather, brother, and two sisters) was there. A month after that Christmas Eve service, I spoke to my father on the phone for the first time in eight years. A few months later, my stepfather and my sisters’ names were added to the Book of Life. That summer I got to see my father face-to-face, and begin to rebuild our relationship, by the grace of God alone. My father is also a believer. Fall of 2004 I was here in Lynchburg, attending a school founded by you, a man to whom I was once diametrically opposed.

The kind of work that God has done in my life since then would take another volume of a letter. Your message to never, ever give up resonates deeply with me; if I told you my story of my three years at Liberty (I’m finishing a year early), you would see what I'm talking about. In short, my life and my family have been redeemed. It was the most difficult thing I have ever been through. I’m sure there will be greater challenges in the future. I anticipate God will build me up for the challenge.

I’m graduating in May, with a B.A. in Philosophy, Summa Cum Laude. I’m getting married to Kirsten on June 9. I’m staying here in Lynchburg to be a Graduate Assistant and get an M.A. at the seminary. With hope, I will go on to pursue a PhD at another school. I'm still working on my BHAG. Know this: I want to reach the kind of people with whom I once identified. I want to see more stories like mine become a reality. I want to be a modern Thomas Aquinas, being as grounded in the Holy Scriptures as in Philosophy. The Spirit used apologetics in a big way to bring me to repentance and faith, but I don’t want to waste my time defending an indestructible faith. I’m too fixed on a polemic mindset; I want to storm the gates of hell. Dr. Caner seems to have the right idea, but I have no idea what this will look like for me.

I have a bad habit of making the bulk of my story “before Christ.” No matter how much I try to write about it, I find it hard to acquire the kind of perspective it takes to share the last few years of my life. It might be because they’re still happening. Maybe I could relate the rest of this story to you sometime.

I wrote this letter to say thank you. Thank you for believing that a school like this could exist. Thank you for putting everything on the line to do it. Thank you for trusting God. Thank you for never backing down when the culture begged you to do so. Thank you for your prayers. Thank you for giving people like me the opportunity to succeed. I hope my story can be an encouragement to you. Atheists do get saved, and Jesus might use one to change the world. We’ll see, God willing, what happens.

I was simply surprised to know that he only died today! I hadn't heard of him in years.

When I was 17, I was an atheist, angry at God if He existed, and I hated Jerry Falwell.

I was the first to denounce him, and Christianity everywhere, for what he said after 9/11. I made my Christian friends aware of the Tinky-Winky thing before it even hit national news. I watched "The People vs. Larry Flynt" and cheered for the pornographer. I wanted to go to college and learn to rip Christian fundamentalists apart, and Falwell, I held, was the figurehead.

Then I met Jesus. Then I bottomed out about college. Then I went to College for a Weekend with Kirsten in Nov. 2003. Then I decided, in less than a year after becoming a Christian, that I was going to attend Jerry Falwell's school.

Yeah. That still makes little sense to me, reading that over. It certainly wouldn't be the way I wrote my story. But, as is usual, God had other plans.

And now Jerry Falwell is dead. I've shaken his hand three times in my life. I got one picture with him (you can find it in my photo album on facebook). Kirsten and I just saw him drive up the mountain behind the Godparent home two weeks ago. The man still had vigor left in him, and I thought he could have easily gone another 15 years like he wanted.

I'm not a conservative; I'm not a member of the religious right. I actually abhor the label (all labels, really). I'm the last person you'd expect, even now, to rally behind this guy. But he was a guy, he lived, he had kids, he had faith, a whole school is here because of him, and now he's gone.

And about four months ago, I wrote him a letter, telling him my story, in hopes that he would be encouraged that atheists can and do get saved. I doubt he had time to read it. And I only told a few people about it.

So. I felt it would be appropriate to share it now.
It's very, very, very long.
But, it tells my whole story in minor detail.
The story needs meat on the bones, but I think I'll use it as a start.
God bless the man. Amen.

there aint nothin wrong with hate speech, as long as it is directed to non-believers. The bible says that and so does jesus and my preacher.

So all y'all liberal homo, commie muslims out there. You will suffer the concequinces on the lifes y'all live.

Falwell, There will never be anyone like him again. THere is not a better example of a person that walked along God's path.

Words come from the heart. Remember this when you are judging Jerry Falwell. He was a human being and dedicated to what he believed to be true, whatever you may think of his belief system. If so many who are using gutter speech to describe him would only evaluate your own hearts. He was not my friend nor did I agree with some of his theological positions, but he did live in the same world with us, and if we demand tolerance for ourselves, let's give him the same consideration we seek.

Having read through the hate rhetoric on this site, I'm very certain that those writers ....................... are persons who haven't contributed very much to this world. ....................... Jerry Falwell was a man who was decent and moral and ....................... unafraid to speak truth in a Nation where truth is often politically incorrect. ....................... But no matter, who you are (those with hate for him) God still holds out an invitation. ....................... And it is a message of hope and grace. ....................... You don't have to agree with J. Falwell's politics to be right with God. ....................... But if you are RIGHT WITH GOD, it seems that hate for him is misplaced.

All in good fun. Not gay, either. Love the Simpson's so won't keep you!

After reading all the hate and intolerance in the above comments, I sit here with my chin on my chest. The death of this man has brought on, in great number, his opposites -- those who hate from 180 degrees away. Is falwellphobia any better than any of the other ...phobias?

This man served a positive purpose in the world. Others doing the same thing remain, and surely, if sadly, more will follow.

I disagreed strongly with his vitriol and damnation of everything and everyone who differed from his viewpoint(s). This caused me to question, evaluate, and articulate, at least to myself, what I believed, why I did so, and why it differed from Falwells rants. I still disagree with most of what the man stood for. He made me figure out why. I am better for it. My children will be better for it. So in some small way, whether it was the way he wanted is not significant, he had a positive impact on the world.

Having read through the hate rhetoric on this site, I'm very certain that those writers ....................... are persons who haven't contributed very much to this world. ....................... Jerry Falwell was a man who was decent and moral and ....................... unafraid to speak truth in a Nation where truth is often politically incorrect. ....................... But no matter, who you are (those with hate for him) God still holds out an invitation. ....................... And it is a message of hope and grace. ....................... You don't have to agree with J. Falwell's politics to be right with God. ....................... But if you are RIGHT WITH GOD, it seems that hate for him is misplaced.

He is actually looking for the 3 guys that went and got caught. It was fun talking to you as well. BTW I was in Iraq in '03 as a Ranger. I do have three kids though, but I'm not gay.

This HAS been fun, Greg (HONESTLY) but I really do have to get SOME work done!

Have a good day. And really, I hope your brother comes home safe.

You were fun.

Alright, well The Simpsons are on and I gotta get home to Mary... so, peace all you crazies! Try not to get all crazy about this crap. Focus on your own life. Peace!

Jesus hates all of y'all liberal, homo commie's. This country would be best served to hang all of y'all. The Reverend Jerry was a great man and he was right to stand up aginst you liberal, homo commies. He was right to say that YOU ARE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL, right along with the muslims and all non-believers.

Lord, i ask you to give me strength to defend myself against all these evil people. We're in our last days dear lord and i wanna come home to you, sweet jesus. Protect brother falwell. i'm glad he gets to be home with youm lord.

twice a day, Mary, twice a day!

Greg-

If I said you had a beautiful body would you hold it against me?

Hey Mary?

Dennis - - yes you do.

Like him or lump him, Falwell was never afraid to stand up for his convictions, the same right all Americans have, whether they are moral and honorable, as was Falwell, or just people looking to relieve some of their own vitriol bubbling to the surface in response to today's headlines. Sadly, most of the detractors posting to this thread never met Falwell, attended his school or church, met his family, heard him speak or observed his daily interactions, so they are left with only media-infused biases from which to judge and pontificate. Falwell had an incredible sense of humor and a heart for people, whether or not others can accept his means of expressing his convictions. Dr. Falwell will be revered by those who truly knew of him and his legacy. Those of you clamoring the loudest should remember that if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything...

Sorry, Mary. If I believed you I might feel bad, but I don't and it was a comparison to how some people on here were acting so take your pill and relax.

There is a disconnect here in the argument on these posts.
I see two sides. One side did not like Falwell, and the other did.
The side the did not like Falwell cite his hatred of specific groups of people and his use of religion as a means to a political and financial end as their reason for not being pro Falwell.

Those who are Pro Falwell say they like him because he acomplished many things and was a nice man and a man of God. They also say that people who say bad things about him are hypocritical.

Now, I am reluctant to question anyone's devotion to God because I don't know what God wants, none of us does. Perhaps God wants us all to be stoning everyone who wears two types of cloth in the same garment...who knows? We've got to suppose as best as we can and work from there...if we care to at all.

Throughout history, many people have tried to figure out what we are supposed to do. Surprisingly the golden rule has been around for more than 2007 years. In fact, if you are interested in a monotheistic religion that has been around for a while and is all about loving one's neighbor etc. do some reading about Zoroastrianism.

But in a subject about which there can logically be no certanty, many have been certain. In history many of those people are remembered well and many of them are remembered for how their certanty applied to the world around them.

Martin Luther King Jr. was a certain man. He was a man of God. But he is rememberd for his message of unification. Of equality, freedom and of hope.

Ghandi was certain, he was a man of God. He will be rememberd for similar reasons as MLK jr.

Mr. Falwell did not unify. He did not send a message of hope to the world. He was not interested in equality, or freedom. Rather he drove a wedge between people.

He spoke to people who felt marginalized, who felt separated from society and he gave them a simple set of steps to stop feeling marginalized. The first step was to realize that they were special and that everyone who wasn't them was going to hell. He created a network where those people could get together and flex their social muscle to get their voices heard. It was truly an amazing thing.

But he built that amazing movement on illogical arguments and based his social behavior on decidedly unchristian foundations.

Falwell goes on the list with Generalisimo Francisco Franco in my book. They both used religion for their own gain and what they believed in terms of social norms is remarkably similar, the hatred of specific groups and the brainwashing of the youth, and intolerance of critical thought.

I hope we remember Falwell as an example of how not to behave in the social sphere.

For all those who hate Jerry Falwell and all Bible-believing Christians - we do not hate you.

After reading many of these comments, it is safe to say that many people do not have the tolerance they claim to have for others. Jerry Falwell spoke up for his beliefs as many of you have. He wasn't a perfect man but he did love the Lord. No one is perfect but there are sins in this world that should not be condoned by anyone.

There is a heaven and a hell. We each decide where we are going during this life. I know some people think death is it but I don't. If I am wrong, then I have had a good life but if I am right, what happens to you?

There is a greiving wife and three children. Can you not show them compassion? I hope that they never see the messages in this thread. They are very cruel and ugly. You can feel the hatred from these messages. What happen to your tolerance?

Just because something is written in the bible why do you folks think that is true? re; gays.

One could say the thing for any book, thus why don't you go yammering on about all the other "sacred texts". I mean, you don't believe the Koran, right? So your Bible - what is that? Both are ridiculous texts. No different than L. Ron Hubbards drivel.

Basically: show me evidence. If you can't produce sound evidence, shove off with your wacky opium dreams. And please - stop forcing your believes down everyone's throat. Religion and State are to be SEPERATE.

GREG JOHN, CAN YOU GET THE ONE AND TRUE GOD OF YOU AND GERRY TO HELP YOU WITH THAT STUCK CAPS KEY BEFORE HE DROWNS US ALL IN HIS INFINITE MERCY? THANKS!

Thank god this demon died!! I will celebrate it this weekend. Please, Jerry rot in hell.

But it's fun. Now I'm addicted to you.

BTW, no daughter, but if I had one, I would hope for one with autism.

And MY name ain't Mary.

HAHA! You people are pathetic (I guess I must be too).
Anyway, getting this upset over something so damned stupid is really retarded.
And my name ain't Greg.

Alex- do you even know what that LOSER used to preach? Do you have any idea how much hate he has dispelled in this world? If he really was preaching JESUS's teachings, then JESUS must be a complete loser too (which i am sure he was not). FALWELL deserved the most painful death and I hope he is roasted slowly in hell.

My youngest daughter has autism, Greg. What a horrible comment.

May your brother be butt raped by a hung Iraqi.

What many of you say about Jerry Falwell tells me more about you than him. I don't know him personally, but I am fairly confident that he is not the Satan you are calling him. Don't bother with the carefully manicured quotes that are meant to villainize him. People who rant and accuse, as many of you do, rarely have anything worth saying.

Noah preached 120 years as the FOOL who built the ark in the middle of a dessert. But the day the rain began to drown these wicked, careless jesters, Noah suddenly became the WISE MAN, after all!

So it is with the foolish hypocrites frothing like rapbid dogs in this blog, DEFAMING with their poisoinous lips a man of God, who was made of clay and weak, made his mistakes, but was a tirelss defender of TRUTH--A word they could not even define--

MEN LOVED DARKNESS BECAUSE THEIR DEEDS WERE EVIL---IF THEIR DEEDS WERE GOOD THEY WOULD COME TO THE LIGHT.

My advice to the blasphemers of the one and True God of Jerry Falwell--- Consider the once frantically-scored CLAW and scratch marks, now etched in petrified tar on the outside of the ark--OF PEOPLE WHO WANTED IN--BUT IT WAS TOO LATE.

Then ask yourself: "Are these the hell-desrving fools I am going to spend eternity with?!"

YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN! John 3:7 Read the book of John--- Jesus loved you and died, shedding GOD'S BLOOD for your sins ON THE CROSS IN YOUR PLACE---YES, HE TOOK YOUR ETERNAL HELL FOR YOU and wants to save you not only from SATAN, whom you love and serve, but FROM YOUR BLINDED SELVES! It's starting to rain--I gotta go. Don't wait...

Who said I mourned him? Now I'm just messing with some autistic kids heads, sweetheart.

It's Bush's fault. If Bill Clinton had been President, this would not have happened.

For the Fallwell haters: Ever heard of the word Jeremiad? The oldest model in the book is the doomsaying prophet, the Isaiah-Jeremiah-Amos figure who speaks out against individual wickedness and sin and links that degradation to the imminent destruction of the nation as a whole. Fallwell didn’t invent this role he took for himself and it hardly makes sense to condemn the man for swimming against the larger secular tide when that is precisely what the biblical models at Falwell’s disposal are expected to do. So you don’t agree with him, so what. Turn off your T.V., turn the page of the newspaper, garden your own corner of the world, move on.

For the Fallwell lovers: Ever heard of the Sermon on the Mount? “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you” –Jesus (Matt. 5:48)

For all who invoke God on this thread: I don’t see Jesus talking much about “rotting in hell,” etc. You can read Dante for that. Jesus is quick to condemn sin, as with the money changers in the temple or the self-righteous Pharisees, but he also is quick to forgive sin too. The woman caught in adultery is the classic case. “Neither do I condemn thee” counters the Pharisees who would take up stones to kill her. That is Jesus’s tolerant, forgiving line. But his “go and sin no more” line implies a moral stance: there is such a thing as sexual “sin,” and she is not to pursue it. Can we learn from this?

Falwell condemned sin; he might have done it more lovingly, more gently. But then we all could do better in this arena, couldn’t we.

Dr. Falwell has done many things that are worthy to be critiqued. Yet, most of the posts on here are not critiquing anything truthful. They are venomously and bitterly attacking the man. These posts are made by people who are too lazy to critique specific actions and find utter delight in insulting a man who just died and has a grieving family. They are now saying more evil, wicked things than the one they critique ever spoke. They are attacking a straw man, not the real Falwell. Here are excerpts of the rage that is spewing out over a man who just died:

Vegas odds on when Falwell's half breed illegitimate child shows up.

Good riddance to another bloated death cult leader.

Thank God there is one less person that will brainwash and rob the poor

Jerry Falwell was a parasite who fed on fear, ignorance, and bigotry.

I truly hope that all who made such comments do not have to face such remarks when they lose their Fathers, brothers, uncles, or any family members to death. I pray they have comfort and people to come love on them when they lose their family members. I pray they receive the compassion they refuse to show now.

Falwell was a man who made many mistakes; yet, he was an imperfect man who knew a perfect savior and is with Jesus Christ right now because he admitted he was a sinner and begged Jesus to save him. I pray you all do the same.

Yo Chris, it's much easier to get AIDS from a man, so physiologically, heterosexuality is more dangerous for me. Thanks for validating my relationship with a woman, you misogynist. You'll get a mention at the commitment ceremony.

Wow, Greg. You appear to be a divisive individual. On the other hand, after reading your posts and those from your admirers I would have to agree: stop wasting your time at work and fly directly to Iraq.

There are many idiots in the world . . . mainly those who mourn for Brother Falwell.

Did you take that from experience? My husband and I are good fathers. Did I mention I'm a gay man? I just think that people should be so bent on being far left or right. I'm guessing you might be a 12 year old or a stoned out teenager because I don't know any grown adults that would even act like and say that out of anger.

the bible was written and edited by man.
"god" is within everyone.
"dr" falwell didn't see that and pointed a few hateful chubby fingers at anyone who wasn't a WASP.

for you christians that think only one book is worth reading, this is called Karma.

I need air!

Dialog of the deaf...how sad.

JERRy Falwell was self serving and made so many sick remarks about others that he knew nothing about. he preached hate! jesus must of cried when that real fat man used his name in the ugly hateful sick acts he commited in his name! Jerry right now is bedding down with the devil.

JERRy Falwell was self serving and made so many sick remarks about others that he knew nothing about. he preached hate! jesus must of cried when that real fat man used his name in the ugly hateful sick acts he commited in his name! Jerry right now is bedding down with the devil.

Daddy please dont touch me- you are horrible like your lover Falwell. I don't like a sausage up my tunnel....

I take no pleasure in the death of anyone. On the other hand, I am troubled by what Falwell stood for. The Religious Right, of which he was one of the founders, has now been responsible for an unholy alliance with government that has brought us:

1) The deaths of thousands of Iraqis and Americans in an illegal, preemptive war of choice that was actively opposed by 10 million people around the world.
2)Corruption scandals involving the folks at Walter Reed Hospital, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Karl Rove, and others too numerous to mention.
3)The unethical firing of eight U.S. attorneys for purely political reasons and a subsequent cover-up of the reasons behind it.
4) Denial of the fact of global warming, and opposition to action to mitigate it--leading to endangerment of all creatures on earth and a refusal to care for creation which is a responsibility of all Christians.

I take Falwell's death as one more reminder to oppose the actions of the Christian Right. They spout sanctimony and morality, but #1 through #4 above are actions they helped bring about, and are deeply immoral. Their political machinery is a danger to our society.

LOL!!! This is getting good. Thanks for making me laugh at work... can you spell work? Do you even have a job or are you still your parents mistake? Just curious.

A shame, it would appear he went quickly. Hopefully, Robertson and Dobson won't get off so lightly.

I have always thought about the teachings in the book of Matthew in connection with Falwell. Those who say they did great things in the name of God may be judged. Those who feed the hungry, look after the sick and the ones in prison, who take in strangers or clothe the poor -- they are the ones who are rightous. How Falwell did is not for me to judge, but when the religious right equated the teachings of Jesus with a political and economic system, they made a dangerous pact.

We don't care Greg. Stop molesting your children.

Having read a lot of the comments surrounding the death of Falwell I can only be gratefull that I dont live in your country where politics is constantly buffeted by lobby groups along with left/right leaning christian groups who all seem to think they know whats best for everyone else.

In my country (New Zealand) we thankfully dont suffer that sort of thing...freedom of religious choice is exactly that however our laws do not allow the impinging of religious beliefs on anyone else.

A lot of my people admire to a certain degree the strength and character of the USA however we observe with consternation the bigotry, that invades a lot of your christian thinking and the polorisation that comes with it.

It is really sad to see the liberals and other people who disagree with Dr. Falwell practice such hate and intolerance. You are all such hypocrites. You expect everyone to to respect you and your views, yet you are unwilling to do the same to others. I am shocked at the hatred expressed toward Dr. Falwell. If you check the Bible, the Word of God, you will see that Dr. Falwell preached and lived by it. If you do not like what he stood for, then check it out by God's Word. If it differs, then respectfully disagree, the same that you expect from others toward you. You all grandstand and demand respect, love, and tolerance, yet you are not willing to practice it. Check God's Word, and do unto others as you would have them to do unto you. God is love, yet God is also a God of wrath. God's Word teaches and names certain sins. If you take issue with these sins that were mentioned by Dr. Falwell, then you have to also take issue with God and His Word. Dr. Falwell encouraged and influenced this world to repent of their sins and live for God. Now if people would do this, this world would be a much better place. Please, get rid of the evil and hatred in your hearts and give your lives to Christ. Your disrespect, sarcasm, hatred, and intolerance is very disgusting, especially at this sad time of Dr. Falwell's death.

He said only people with the mark of the beast use cash and that God ordained that we move to plastic.

Can somebody point that out to me in the Bible? Is that in the "no fish with cheese" part or the "stone your wife for infidelity part" or the "sleep with your daughter if you are under the impression that you are the last people on earth" part?

yea, i couldn't find it either.

And for all you numpties that ascribe to the Ten Commandments, worshiping Fat Jerry breaks the rules.

I think it is pretty cute that you named yourself after me guys!

BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!! BALLS! FAGS! BUTT HOLES!!!

Well, if you must know I am a father of 3 and a husband and the military decided that (pre-9/11) I could get a waiver to join due to my parents thinking that Ritalin was an answer. And I assure you I am quite educated. At least more that some one who can only swear and repeat himself.

All of you people who say Jesus never said anything about homosexuality are very simple minded.

Jesus never said anything about rape, pedophilia, NAMBLA, etc. I guess, according to your logic, these things are permissible too.

Just use your brains, idiots. Physiologically, homosexuality is not healthy. Homo men die on average in their late 30s. Duh, do the math. It is a dangerous lifestyle. Homosexual men have on average 350+ sexaul partners in a lifetime. Heterosexuals (male and female) have around 7 in a lifetime on average. I have pity on you ignorant people.

Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.

John Deverson, you say "Jesus claimed to be God. Was He? If He wasn't then He was a hoaxter or a crazy man."

I say, there's another choice -- he is a legend.

You also say, "...He came to die for our sin for everyone who humbles themselves and believes on Him."

But he was only dead for 3 days, then he supposedly rose from the dead and now lives forever with God in heaven. It doesn't sound like that much of a sacrifice, especially compared to what some other people have gone through.

And where did this sin of ours come from in the first place? His father, God, gave it to us - all of us - because Eve ate an apple. Nice guy.

But then, none of this matters, if you don't think the bible is inerrant.

Yes, Greg. Please go to iraq to join your bro.

If there were ever a grave worth dancing on, it's this one.

No, Jesus wasn't crucified by people like the ones ranting on this board. He was crucified by Pharisees. Smug, self-righteous religious leaders who used the government to carry out what they said were God's wishes. Like the Moral Majority did. Which was led by Jerry.

Yep, bet it's pretty toasty down there for the whole lot of 'em.

To everyone who is yelling about people being hipocrites for saying bad things about Jerry Falwell:

A few people did seem to go too far, and say some very mean spirited things. Mostly by using profanity or slang. But that seems to be less than half of the negative posts. Count them if you want, I don't have the time.

For the most part, people said things that were the truth. Jerry Falwell was an intolorant biggot. His own words confirm this and it is an indisputable fact. He actually blamed 9/11 on feminists and gays, with his own mouth, in his own words, and not under duress. He blamed a disaster on men and women who weren't hurting anyone else, but just wanted to spend their lives with someone who they were attracted to. On women who wanted something more than a life in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant. And this is just one of many intolerant, biggoted, and non-christian things he has said in the public record. If your views align with his so much that you too believe that the slaughter of thousands in an instant is a proper and rightous response from god for people trying to love each other, albeit in a manner we consider unconventional, or for women trying to better themselves, then I am very sorry to tell you that you are not christian either, in any sense of the word. You believe that god would bring upon innocent people death of such a scale that this country has never seen, against innocent people for that matter, just to get back at a group people that are not hurting anyone. Try reading the second part of the bible. Listen to the teachings of Christ, you know, the guy who's name spells most of the word you throw around with such abandon. Don't yell at people simply for stating facts about the man, simply because he is dead. Being dead does not mean people have to celebrate you, say nice things, or forget what a horrible biggot you were that probably inspired so many other hateful crimes. If that was the case you would not be able to say that Hitler was a bad person either, or mention that he tried to exterminate the Jews, because that is not a nice thing to say about a dead person.

So for the last time, as nicely as it can be said:

Jerry Falwell was not a very nice person, but beyond that he definately was not a true Christian. I am sorry he was lost before he could see the error of his ways, and I hope that his sins were not too great that god will not allow him in to heaven. But that is where my feelings on the matter stop. We did not loose a christian man in this death, only a mean spirited man who happened to be powerful enough to get in enough faces and gather a following. Saying that he WAS a good Christian is an embarrassment just as saying you would be proud to associate with such a person should be.

Who's crying sweetie? I just hate all this liberal brainwashing crap. You leftists have no since of decency what so ever!

Greg, if your brother if fighting in Iraq then he is a government puppet and a moron. And you are a COWARD- why are YOU not fighting in Iraq if you believe so passionately about the war. COWARD, MORON and IDIOT

Wow, Chris! It's people like you and Jerry Falwell who give Christians a bad name. Hatred is not a Christian value, Chris, it is a human value. Your name is Chris, not Christ, so you spew human hatred, just like Jerry spent his life doing. Bishop Spong is right: he was just an ignorant country preacher. You, Chris, are just ignorant.

Death couldn't come to much of a better person. Pity it took so long.

If Falwell was a Christian, he hid it well. As far as I'm concerned, he was nothing but a nasty, hypocritical, hatemonger and financial parasite.

Jerry Falwell loved Jerry Falwell, and not much else. Second only (IMO) to Joseph Smith, creator of the Mormon 'religion', I consider Falwell one of the best con men that this country has every produced.

Being a Christian used to mean something. Not much, but something. Now all it usually means is that a person belongs to a self-serving, holier-than-everyone else clique. Have you noticed how most of them tend to pick and choose which of the Commandments they're going to obey?

Just in case you're not up-to-date with Falwell's Christians, here's the NEW Ten Commandments:

1) I, Jerry Falwell, am the Lord your God.
2) There are no other Gods but me.
3) Thou shall not make for yourself an idol, because I am all you should be worshipping.
4) Thou shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God, which is Jerry Falwell.
5) Remember the Sabbeth and remember to send me your money, cash, checks, money orders & credit cards are all accepted; quality jewelry should be certified as genuine.
6) Honor your parents as long as they've got the dough; otherwise, dump them into a nursing home.
7) Thou shalt not murder unless the victim isn't like us, and thus needs killing.
8) Thou shalt not commit adultry unless you're sure you won't get caught, or he/she is really cute, or you're just in the mood.
9) Thou shalt not steal from me, but if you steal from someone else, it's okay if you send the proceeds to me.
10) Thou shalt not bear false witness unless there's some profit in it, and I get a share.

Rot in Hell, Falwell. I'm sure there's room for one more.

F JERRY FALWELL!
he was a child molesting drug addict and you probably are too!
BALLS BALLS BALLS
FAGS FAGS FAGS!!!
BUTT HOLE PLEASURES ROCK!

Wow, Chris! It's people like you and Jerry Falwell who give Christians a bad name. Hatred is not a Christian value, Chris, it is a human value. Your name is Chris, not Christ, so you spew human hatred, just like Jerry spent his life doing. Bishop Spong is right: he was just an ignorant country preacher. You, Chris, are just ignorant.
Fortunately we can afford you the generousity of forgiveness, for we know we are right.

Greg-

Shut up. Stop crying.

Falwell had an itch up his butt and used to seduce young boys- may his trashy ass never rest in peace and may he be poked in his rear by the devil till he no longer enjoys being poked in the rear....

Wow, Chris! It's people like you and Jerry Falwell who give Christians a bad name. Hatred is not a Christian value, Chris, it is a human value. Your name is Chris, not Christ, so you spew human hatred, just like Jerry spent his life doing. Bishop Spong is right: he was just an ignorant country preacher. You, Chris, are just ignorant.
Fortunately we can afford you the generousity of forgiveness, for we know we are right.

I shall mourn the death of a man, a husband, a father, a grandfather. I shall mourn for the loss his family has experienced. But I shall not mourn his no longer being, I feel, a totally irresponsible voice in this nation and in the Church and in the world. For that I shall not mourn.

Is this an Islamic website or something? It is funny that people like my brother are over in Iraq right now fighting so you ignorant extremist retards can spew this crap all over the internet. I'm sure you didn't like Jerry, and for some of you I can understand, maybe your daddy didn't love you enough, or too much (?)

You all should really pay attention to yourselves that goes for the Religious Zealots as well.

Chris,

Yes, I am the spawn of Satan himself. Here I am, with creepy little horns and a pointy tail.

Stop wasting your time crying over Falwell and resume jerking off to gay Internet porn while you cheat on your wife with men in the backroom of adult bookstores.

There seems to be a lot of angry posts here.

I pray that one man will not fill your heart with so much anger that you would turn your back from God.

Please God help them find the truth.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16

If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than this man's religion.

NO MORE KOW-TOW

TO JERRY BOW-WOW

falwell WAS SATAN on earth! ya'll should be happy that SATAN has left the planet! SATAN IS DEAD! SATAN IS DEAD!!!!! eat my butt!

The man danced on so many people's graves, took great glee in other's sorrow and pain. Turned a blind eye to the pain he caused and the fear he nurtured. This is not a misunderstanding of Falwell's beliefs or actions - no one on God's green earth was more craven and drunk with power then Jerry Falwell. Whitewash his history all you want, Christianists. His legacy will not be forgotten.

Obviously there are some people who insist on spewing anger and hate when someone with whom they disagree dies. Where is the voice of love and reason now? I can tell you, He was crucified many years ago by people who sound just like this. Have we learned nothing?

Chris - An Orthodox Christian

"It's in the bible!" has never been a reason for anything ever.

A lifetime ministry of bigotry, hatred & intolerance...

Rest in ... whatever

All of you "tolerant" posters are pathetic. You scream TOLERANCE at the top of your lungs, and you, Meyer and your ilk, are the most intolerant Christophobes on the planet. Your hypocrisy is overwhelming. You people are sick and evil for your dangerous and hate filled rhetoric. You, not Jerry Falwell, will rot in Hell if you don't turn to Jesus Christ.

You people are the spawn of Satan yourselfs and do not know it.

falwell WAS SATAN on earth! ya'll should be happy that SATAN has left the planet! SATAN IS DEAD! SATAN IS DEAD!!!!!

I seem to recall a lot of Christian bile coming out when Molly Ivins and Paul Wellstone died. So much for our holier-than-thou Christians. The true Christians that I know are also happy that Fool-well is dead.

I'm sure that he'll be greeted by his Moslem counterpart, Mullah Dadullah of the Taliban. Both of them hijacked a religion to legitimatize their own hatred.

I am sure hes yet another closet fag who was molesting young boys because he never had the guts to come to terms with it ...

MSW did you even read the rest of 1 Corinthians 5? It denounces the very same sexual immorality that the hatemongers here espouse. It does say not to judge those who are outside the church, but if they are in your church they are to be removed because they claim to be christians but ARE NOT!

This section of the bible is more critical of the immorality celebrated on this forum than almost any other part of the bible.

I don't care for Jerry Falwell's legacy, but regardless of his lack, the truth he proclaimed is still truth.

Jesus is Lord.

I dolaters and sexual deviants try to pervert christianity to remove their own accountability to the Truth.

This was something that Jerry Falwell was not incorrect in pointing out.

Falwell was a hateful, evil person. He caused much grief and unhappiness to happen to people who didn't deserve it. His gospel of hate and fear, playing on the fears of uneducated, ignorant people to rob money from them to fund his right-wing taliban style politics, will get him what he deserves. There IS a God and God is not a God of hate. God is a God of love. Maybe God can forgive Falwell for all the pain and hurt he caused in this country, but I certainly can't. He was an evil man.

Good riddance.

If you believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God, then this passage speaks for itself.

Romans 1:26-28
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Also Romans 3:23 "for ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

Also, Romans 6:23 "for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord."

1. We are all sinners. If I lust (for a male or female) it is sin. If I lie, it is sin.
The ultimate sin is to put myself above God, saying, "my God is this way or that way". This is sin of pride. God has revealed Himself completely in Jesus Christ and His Word, the Bible.

2. We are all destined to hell without God's grace, which He gives freely to those who accept it and turn from their sin, whatever it is.

3. Jesus Christ said, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father excepth through me". Humbling ourselves and accepting Gods' gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ's death on the Cross is the way out of our sin problem.

Now, I know that you may say, well, I don't believe in the Bible or that part of the Bible or the God in the Bible is not the God I want, or there isn't a God. He's just a figment of those who can handle the meaninglessness of life. Well, I was one of those people and had those same thoughts. I was 33 years old, college educated and not just an atheist, but an anti-Biblical Christian as many on the posts here are. My best friend became a "born-again Christian", and I was like, "No, man!". I, for the first time, really read the Bible, I mean studied it and the history and the places and the people and all I can say is I had a lot of pre-conceived notions of what the Bible and Christianity were and when I really took the time, I mean 10-20 hours per week for months to study the Bible and history, it changed my perspective and then all I can say is God revealed to my soul that it was all true, just like it claimed to be and my life was changed completely. I have not put my brain on the shelf, on the contrary, I put critical thinking to everything I read and hear, and being a follower of Christ has made things more clear and make more sense than every before. I am now 45 and am still learning.

I didn't agree with everything Jerry Falwell said, but he was a sinner saved by grace. I too make mistakes, but I ask God to forgive me. Just remember, Jesus talked about sin and hell. There is such a thing. If you think you are without sin you fool yourself. Take a momement, to take a true account of yourself, what selfish action or thought did you have just today? Jesus claimed to be God. Was He? If He wasn't then He was a hoaxter or a crazy man. If He was God, why was He here? The Bible says He came to die for our sin for everyone who humbles themselves and believes on Him. May the Lord's grace and peace be upon you.

You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe.

Actually voice of Jesus, Jesus never really mentioned anything about Homosexuality. He told you to love your neighbor. That is Jewish old Test.

This endlessly repeated line that Falwell's critics are intolerant is obvious BS. If you people restarted the Spanish Inquisition, and started torturing and and burning us at the stake, you'd call us intolerant of Christianity when we complained.

NO Atheist in the history of the United States has ever tried to outlaw people going to church, or practising whatever religion they want in whatever way they see fit.

But Falwell-type Christians are continually trying to tell non-Christians how to live their lives.

Worse, they try to enlist the State to FORCE people to live their lives as the Christians demand. Since the Fundies presumably already obey their own edicts (except when they're getting caught like Haggard) the effort to stack the Supreme Court etc is clearly an attempt to force non-believers to live by your rules.

Christians whine about persecution of "people of faith", when they are invariably the first to scream for the nuking of Mecca, the rounding-up of US Muslims etc.

When a Christian whines about intolerance or persecution against Christians (in a country where 37 out of 37 Presidents have been white Christian males) what they're really saying is: "How intolerant of you to resist our efforts to control your life."

Just leave us other people alone, Christians, and I guarantee we will leave you alone, as we always have. It will be our pleasure.

Why did Falwell have to burn all his transcripts prior to 1961? From "American Facists" by Chris Hedges:

Hmm....

"...But this tactic has required the airbrushing out of past racist creeds -- an effort that, sometime after 1970, saw Jerry Falwell recall all copies of his earlier sermons warning against integration and the evils of the black race. The only sermon left in print from the 1960s is called "Ministers and Marchers." In the sermon Falwell angrily denounces preachers who engage in politics, specifically those who support the civil-rights movement. The effort to erase the past, to distort truth and reinvent himself as a past supporter of civil rights, is a frightening example of how, if a lie is broadcast long enough and loud enough, it becomes true. Distortions and lies permeate the movement, which fends off criticism by encasing its followers in closed information systems and wrapping itself in Christian vestments and the American flag. "

Although I did not approve of much he said, I am surprised and appalled at the lack of respect given to a person. I do not align myself with him, but the hate that is present hear is discouraging. It is sad to see people hate each other for differing beliefs. It is sad to see so much rejoice in one man's suffering, even if someone was against. It is also said to see people who support Jerry to be threatening people. As I understand God he would not want his followers to respond with evil wishes on those who disrespect Jerry. This is truly a sobering display of hate and vengeance by all who are making such crude remarks to each other. Even if Farwell was wrong, is this how we respond to our enemies? Even if the people making crude remarks about him are wrong, do followers of Christ respond with words of vengeance? All people are created in the image of God. And no matter how much you disagree with someone I would never make comments like these. This is a sad telling of the polarization that is present.

I am appalled at most of these comments. Firstly, homosexuality is a sin. It's in the Bible. I didn't make that up and I'm not bashing gays. I love gays, as the scripture suggests: Love the sinner, hate the sin...

What is wrong with people today? Why such hatred? What happened to respect and dignity? I never understood slavery, and will never understand the bigotry that is being spewed on this blog.

Such pain is shown here in the form of hatred. Have passion, my fellow people. Make your point and keep your stance, but not at the expense of lowering your own morals to the level as to appear relentlessly cruel. You make no progress for your platform in this way... you only reveal your support of more hate and misunderstanding. Only you have the power to end it. What is your choice? Help us understand instead of posting these kinds of remarks at the most inopportune times.

May God speak to each of your hearts and work in your lives to reveal Himself to you.

Steady, friends. Steady.

The comments posted in this thread are more a testiment of the Washington Post's readership than of how the nation feels about Falwell's passing. I see a lot of misspellings, a lot of hateful comments coming from people who claim to be inclusive, fire with heat and no light. I see self-righteous bigotry and a lack of love at double the rate they claim comes from Christians. Grow up. I rarely agreed completely with Falwell's brand of fundamentalism, but at least he stood for something. You guys fall for anything.

I hope that his rotting body feeds 1,000,000 worms.

I love you, Anonymous.

I find it amazing all of the mean, insensitive and HATEFULL things that have been posted here.

Jerry Falwell was not a god and not perfect. He was a forgiven person who at time did not speak the truth in love but he did speak the truth. He may have said some things that were not totally in line with the Bible but again he was not perfect, just forgiven.

Jerry Falwell didn't write the Bible, he just quoted it. For those spewing hate at him, you might reflect a bit on where he got his material. Just a thought.

Sorry, but respect is EARNED. Falwell has earned the hatred that is flowing on this board.

I have no respect for bigots, and I refuse to give them a pass because they're dead, a religionist or both. Those two sorry band-aids need to be ripped from the discourse of respectable society.

Falwell is reaping what he sowed. Good for those who aren't afraid to call him what he was.

Greg: You ARE a bowel obstruction.

In November 1983 what happend to fartwell

I always knew the left was intolerant of views not their own, but wow, they certainly demonstrate it in a very ugly manner here.

They have no respect for the unborn, and clearly none for the recently departed.

That goes for you too, Unkowitnots, and anyone else who would defend this man. Post a defense of Levi's quotes. Don't hide behind platitudes.

Most "christians" don't live what Jesus practiced and preached....to do unto others as you have them do unto you. You don't want to be judged? then don't judge others. What gives a Christian the right to judge those outside of the church? Certainly, not the bible:

1 Cor 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

And again Jesus said to let the first one without sin cast the first stone....why are "christians" today so eager to cast stones? Remove the log within your own eye first...the log being hatred, love of money, pride, etc, etc. I know there are "true" Christians in the world somewhere...you just won't find them in the multi million dollar mega churches or political groups.

Can we please allow a newly widowed woman some dignity? A husband and father has died. Whether we agree with his political and spiritual views or not --I would hope we could give a grieving family some respect.

“Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan in America”
-jerry falwell

“If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being”
-jerry falwell

“Textbooks are Soviet propaganda”
-jerry falwell

“[homosexuals are] brute beasts...part of a vile and satanic system [that] will be utterly annihilated, and there will be a celebration in heaven.”
-jerry falwell

Hey, if you want to start or belong to the First United Church of I HateEveryBody, you'll get a little hate spewed at you.

But when you try to turn the GOVERNMENT into the First United Church of I HateEveryBody, then people rightly celebrate your untimely (as in not soon enough) death.

The world is a better place today. Ta-Ta, Jerry.

Ding dong the witch is dead.

Ding dong the witch is dead.

What date is this November 1983 in history

In a day when “repentance” is laughed at, I was just a little surprised at the negative comments. Not agreeing with all that Dr. Falwell did in his ministry, I still recognize his stand was generally Biblical. Most of the negative comments were by those who would label St. Paul’s letter to the Romans vile bigotry.

Jerry, I thank you for passing this way. Enjoy His reward!

Not everyone is a Humanist, M.L.Pack. As a matter of fact I flat out am disgusted at secularists. I'm not fundamentalist either, but do you realize that your whole movement is based off a Jewish immigrant that isn't even an American (Soros). Some one who does not like America and has the money to disband it with words. Soros and the like, in my opinion, should be the ones to feel Hell's fiery torment, but I don't believe in Hell either. I meant that figuratively.

Bruce, you have absolutely no understanding of Western liberalism. I now understand why certain fundamentalists are so opposed to liberalism -- they mistake it for complete and total relativism. You couldn't me more mistaken.

As for your love of Falwell, do you care to defend the quotes posted by Levi above (thank you, Levi)? It's one thing to make generic statements about the man, and it's quite another to defend his actual statements. Write your defense of his comments on aparteid. Tell me why his statement about Satan being a Jew reflects the views of a caring, loving, man.

How can you be so ignorant? How can you be so hateful? This Man did love everyone, he cared for everyone. He prayed for everyone. I am glad I opportunity to know him personally. He was truly a man of God.

I do feel sorry for all of you, who are trying to make yourself feel better by putting someone down. You can't put this person down. Your only degrading yourself.

Scott:
The man made a career (and a sh1tload of money) whipping up hatred against people like me and many of my dearest friends and family members. I owe him NOTHING in the way of respect.

Bruce and Richard - -

F*ck you, c*cksuckers.

Ding dong the witch is dead.

One the one hand, you have Christians who are full of love and who preach Jesus's message of forgiveness and tolerance. On the other, you have Jerry Falwell.

Let he who is without sin, indeed.

"Mary Simpsion" said, "Like mother used to say---if you have nothing nice to say--say nothing." Well, "Mary," maybe if Falwell had kept his fat, obnoxious, evil trap shut we wouldn't be bashing him today.

JMJ

One less hatred-spewing, divisive, ignorant fool for the world to worry about.

When tolerance allows intolerance to flourish, it no longer serves it's purpose.

My condolences go out to his friends and family, but I cannot be sorry that his intolerance will no longer be spouted.

I've heard a lot about fundamentalist wanting a literal intepretation of the bible. This is why they feel it's okay to abuse and descriminate against gays and non-christians. However, if you scratch the surface you will reveal the truth: the bible says a lot of things, including the death penalty for children who strike their parents, permission to beat your wife if she offends you, and a host of other horrible, grotesque mis-interpretations. You cannot be a selective literist, without being a hypocrite.

The quote is "Love thy neighbor", not "Love thy neighbor, unless he/she is gay, non-christian, against your beliefs, or in general not someone you like"....

When that buffoon dropped dead, a large crack formed in the earth and he was received in to the bosom of satan, his friend. May he burn in eternity.

Jerry Falwell's "Greatest Hits" (may he rot):

* “AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals”
* "It appears that America's anti-Biblical feminist movement is at last dying, thank God, and is possibly being replaced by a Christ-centered men's movement which may become the foundation for a desperately needed national spiritual awakening."

* "If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."

* After the September 11 attacks Falwell said, “I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen."

* “Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions”

* “[Homosexuals are] brute beasts...part of a vile and satanic system [that] will be utterly annihilated, and there will be a celebration in heaven.”

I am flabergasted that Newsweek and the Washington Post would publish such a puff piece about a man who got his start in public life by condemning Martin Luther King and actively campaigning for segregationists such as Lester Maddox and George Wallace.

Falwell never apologized for his racist past. In fact, in the 80s he went to South Africa. On his return to the States he openly condemned Bishop Desmond Tutu and praised South Africa's racist apartheid government.

My God, this man refered to the civil rights movement as the "civil wrongs" movement.

Will Newsweek and the Washington Post be putting together a memorial magazine about America's Most Loved Racists in the near future?

Only profane words can described Falwell.
I'm a proud feminist, and my best friend is gay.
You can only imagine how much we luffles him.

It hurts to be told that you are in rebellion against God and Man, but it is vital to know and understand that truth. Only then can we be reconciled to God. Jerry Falwall spoke the truth in love, as a messenger of God should. Al Mohler is correct in his assessment. A great man has passed on to his reward.

A Liberty Theological Seminary degree is worthless.

Religion is a disease, faith is another word for stupidity, and we'd all be better off without the racist, bigoted, power mongering monsters that religion creates. While I will not rejoice in another man's death, I must say that certainly there is no loss to rationality or clear headed thinking by the leader of one of the most brutal and vindictive cults known to man.

Faith = sticking your head in the sand, giving your power up to another. Just stupid.

Reason/science = moving forward.

Valerie:
Of course She won't let him in. She's a black Jewish lesbian, is She not?

If your God does not call the earth his one and only home, and encourages you to destroy (subdue) the whole of nature - your god is a crazy evil alien. Earth is primary.

If your God does not call the earth his one and only home, and encourages you to destroy (subdue) the whole of nature - your god is a crazy evil alien. Earth is primary.

As a man well aware of Dr. Falwell's ministries, I can honestly say that while I did not always agree with the way he said things I have always had great respect for his passion, vision and him as a person. Temperance in speech may not have always been his virtue yet anyone who really got to know him would say he genuinely loved people, his family and Jesus Christ. I found him to be witty, brilliant and always with a sense of humor. His passion to make young champions for Christ was unrivaled. You will truly be missed Jerry.

For those who have left venomous postings, I leave you with a thought: treat others the way you would like to be treated. Please don’t argue the point just internalize it and live it!

As Jerry knew well: ALL have sinned…Christ is God and the only way to heaven…see you there Jerry.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I don't care whether you agree with the man or not. I don't care what your stance is on religion and I don't care where you put yourselves on the spectrum.
I am asking that each of you have some shread of decency, if there is any left in this world, as to show a little respect. Those of you who claim that Christians are intolerant obviously have not spent a lot of time listening to yoursleves. I am no big fan of Dr. Falwell, but I have enough respect for him as a person to not demean him in such a way. He has been a light when others who claim to be Christians would not have the courage to stand. Can we please show a little respect for another member of the human race? Thank you very much.

Mark,

You would put Falwell in the same class as Jesus? I don't think so.

Dear Whomtaz -

You're as delusional, arrogant and self-righteous as Falwell.

Falwell's dead, and that's the end for him. There's no god for him to meet in a non-existant afterlife. Lucky for him - he will be judged by we men and not some higher power.

Too bad his delusion followed him into his final moments. He didn't even get the benefit of an afterlife to learn how wrong he was about belief in gods.

I am glad he died! Anyone who preaches hate and division wearing a mask of love and unity should be put to death anyway.....I do not like the fact that America is still said to be founded as a Christian Nation....that could not be further from the truth...the people do not agree with me have not read enough REAL HISTORY books to know what the hell they are talking about anyway. The only book as far as they are concerned is the FAKE BIBLE, written by money hungry power hungry liars.

I am glad he died! Anyone who preaches hate and division wearing a mask of love and unity should be put to death anyway.....I do not like the fact that America is still said to be founded as a Christian Nation....that could not be further from the truth...the people do not agree with me have not read enough REAL HISTORY books to know what the hell they are talking about anyway. The only book as far as they are concerned is the FAKE BIBLE, written by money hungry power hungry liars.

This is why far right and far left shouldn't be. We should all meet in the middle. I believe that Jerry wasn't wrong in his life and beliefs. He was just opinionated and followed his heart. I also believe that these insensitive nay-sayers are not wrong; they are just speaking their mind, no matter how unthoughtful.
No one is wrong in their opinion; not the left or the right. They are just different opinions. All this is ignorance and this is why the world will not last.

Not soon enough for me and other free-thinking truely compassionate humanists. Fear is the mind killer. And he was a grand executioner of thought.

I am flabergasted that Newsweek and the Washington Post would publish such a puff piece about a man who got his start in public life by condemning Martin Luther King and actively campaigning for segregationists such as Lester Maddox and George Wallace.

Falwell never apologized for his racist past. In fact, in the 80s he went to South Africa. On his return to the States he openly condemned Bishop Desmond Tutu and praised South Africa's racist apartheid government.

My God, this man refered to the civil rights movement as the "civil wrongs" movement.

Will Newsweek and the Washington Post be putting together a memorial magazine about America's Most Loved Racists in the near future?

I am glad he died! Anyone who preaches hate and division wearing a mask of love and unity should be put to death anyway.....I do not like the fact that America is still said to be founded as a Christian Nation....that could not be further from the truth...the people do not agree with me have not read enough REAL HISTORY books to know what the hell they are talking about anyway. The only book as far as they are concerned is the FAKE BIBLE, written by money hungry power hungry liars.

So many cries of hate and intolerance from people who are totally intolerant and post such hateful words. Why don't you try to be tolerant of someone who does not share your views. At least Dr. Falwell never spoke in such a hateful manner as many of the above postings. He spoke out against sin, but he also spoke of love and forgiveness; but, people like the ones who have posted such hate filled words refuse to listen past the part where they are confronted with fact their lifestyle is sinful. Had they listened to the "rest of the story", they would have found that Dr. Falwell taught about the love and forgiveness which is in Chris Jesus.
If I might add, I am a student at Liberty Theological Seminary and I am happy to be associated with Dr. Jerry Falwell.

It appears that those who are always desiring of tolerance are the most intolerant. I cannot fathom how many truly ill people there are in this world. How could anyone speak of the dead, let alone Dr. Falwell, in such a sick and perverted manner? Have any of you accomplished anything on the scale that Dr. Falwell has accomplished in his life? What is the matter? Don't you like the fact that he happened to speak out about those areas that you are probably involved in....like homosexuality, being a drunkard, cheating on your wives, and not living a half-way decent live?? Touched a raw nerve, huh??

Radical cleric Falwell made the Iranian Ayatollahs look moderate.

Jesus H Christ you people are angry. I could give a crap about the man or his family. He's dead - - so what. There are plenty more whack jobs for you brainwashed morons to follow.

Relax.

Jerry Falwall was a man of compassion and geniune concern for the souls of all mankind. I believe if he could say one thing to all the negative posts on this board, he would say "God Bless You and it is not too late for you to accept Jesus as your Saviour."

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life".

God Bless you Dr. Falwell.

Ding dong the dick is dead ! He lived about 50 years too long as it is. Looks like his org. will need to find another cash cow to scam misguided idiots in this country out of cash.....

Now if son of a bush would just follow him....

I can't deny that I felt a certain amount of satisfaction when I saw the link to this article on Google News. My first thought was, "Good riddance."

Falwell's impact was not wholly negative--someone who exhibits such intolerance for gays and ignorance of science serves as a sort of example. We can point at him and note the dangers of fundamentalist, organized religion. Decades from now, we'll look back at Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and their ilk with the same fascination and horror with which we regard those who opposed the civil rights movement and integration.

So yeah--good example of exactly what everyone should avoid becoming.

Mark,
You would put Falwell in the class as Jesus? I don't think so.

Dr. Falwell did much good. He did some questionable things as well. I was personally troubled by his open alliance with Rev. Moon of Unification Church. Only God knows Jerry Falwell's true heart and only God can judge him on that.

Jesus Christ, the son of God, is the supreme teacher of love, forgiveness and not judging, but accepting, others. I hope that Jerry Falwell will now learn what that means.

This thread certainly shows the bitter hatefulness of the left.

I'm Jewish,and I happen to be pro-choice.But Jerry Falwell always struck me as a fine fellow of pleasing cheerful personality,strong faith,intellect and great integrity. I didn't always agree with him, but so what? I always liked him, and wish him the best. He deserves it. Too bad others are so hate-filled and intolerant towards a fine man with whom they happened to disagree.

Perhaps they should go to church more..or in my case, synagogue. I'll think of the good Reverend Falwell kindly when I do. So should you.

I just spoke with God. Falwell, I learned, isn't in heaven. She won't let him in.

This sick, deluded man is in God's peace now. May we all forgive him for the hate he spewed and the families he hurt.

And so ends the life of another evil man.

Jesus Christ, the son of God, is the supreme teacher of love, forgiveness and not judging, but accepting, others. I hope that Jerry Falwell will now learn what that means.

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. I'm only sorry that his seemed to be a quick, painless exit.

Give him a break, folks, perhaps he believed what he preached, perhaps he just liked getting rich at the expense of others "faith". I don't know, but he's dead. I never liked him, but I was once a born-again fundamentalist, so I can actually understand how some people find his positions attractive.

When you honestly, objectively look at his life's work and the work of so many of these mega-churches (there are several where I live in St. Louis, MO), all they boil down to is legal, tax-free money making machines under the guise of not-for-profit goodness.

So, I'm jaded, perhaps, but let's not blast the man for being what he was: a man - flawed and imperfect like the rest of us.

I've grown up and moved on. As Paul would say, "when i became an adult i put away childish things". Perhaps he'd spin in his grave to hear me say that about Christianity itself, but there it is.

All I can say is, if there IS a heaven, I bet ya he's going to be surprised to see who's there with him, or, vice-versa...

OMFG, go away christians. Your BS morality makes me sick, Falwell was a cancerous growth on this planet. Jerry was a righteous DELUSIONAL IDIOT, spreading lies and hate like the plague. All those who support a legacy of lies and hate DISGUST ME. remove your heads from your as$%'s and wake the fu&* up christians, you make me sick.

Oh please. As a nation we rejoice when other hate-filled, evil people die (i.e. Hussein, Hitler, Taliban leaders, etc). This is not different. The man was swine. He was evil. I'm glad he is DEAD and hope his should burns is hell for an eternity. The wicked man is dead! Yaaay! I hope that Pat and Phelps are close behind. Jerry could use some company in hell . . . he's probably getting pounded from the rear by the devil as you read this.

The world lost a great leader today.

The world lost a great leader today.

Jesus Christ, the son of God, is the supreme teacher of love, forgiveness and not judging, but accepting, others. I hope that Jerry Falwell will now learn what that means.

Jesus Christ, the son of God, is the supreme teacher of love, forgiveness and not judging, but accepting, others. I hope that Jerry Falwell will now learn what that means.

Jesus Christ, the son of God, is the supreme teacher of love, forgiveness and not judging, but accepting, others. I hope that Jerry Falwell will now learn what that means.

Oh please. As a nation we rejoice when other hate-filled, evil people die (i.e. Hussein, Hitler, Taliban leaders, etc). This is not different. The man was swine. He was evil. I'm glad he is DEAD and hope his should burns is hell for an eternity. The wicked man is dead! Yaaay! I hope that Pat and Phelps are close behind. Jerry could use some company in hell . . . he's probably getting pounded from the rear by the devil as you read this.

Christianity itself is inherrently flawed. It allows people like Jerry Falwell to exist in the first place.

Nice going, guys.

jesus christ stood for tolerance and fought for those who was shun by society, mr. falwell did neither

Maybe some people here are being so straightforward with their negative feelings because of the example Falwell set. He was not one to mince words about people he did not approve of -- sort of like the comments Rod Namdoog made above.

You're Christian, right, Rod? Did you pick up this kind of vitriolic language from Jerry Falwell or is it unrelated to a commitment to the teachings of Jesus Christ?

Death of a Salesman.

Seems like all these haters of Falwell may fare worse if they do not put their faith in Christ Jesus as their sole way for salvation.

Say what you want, Satan will only be chuckling when you enter the place where "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Unfortunately, you will not be able to rid yourself of this through reincarnation, to believe you are a god, or any of the other promises through false prophets and teachings.

What a great man. It brings a tear to my eye to see such a great manipulator of the people go. But luckily he's going to Heaven--because he told us he was--and especially because he wasn't a flaming gay. I don't think this world will ever see a man who could use religion as a tool as well as Dr. Jerry Falwell. God Bless Him and his followers.

OH HAPPY DAY !!!

THIS IS THE BEST NEWS EVER !!!

HEY.....MAYBE THERE IS A GOD AFTERALL

OH HAPPY DAY !!!

THIS IS THE BEST NEWS EVER !!!

HEY.....MAYBE THERE IS A GOD AFTERALL

I just looked at the ACLU card in my wallet and I could swear that the Statue of Liberty is smiling...

I don't owe Falwell anything, instead, I owe God a lot, that's what really matters tome. Can anybody see the difference?.

Falwell was a self-righteous pharisee.

Ah, finally hell has been returned one of it's missing demons. I hope that gay and other people discriminated by this horrid man mark this beautiful day with celebration. I can't wait to see the pink triangles and rainbow flags that will no doubt be spray painted on his tomb. Rot in hell Falwell! The world is a much better place with you gone.

"A legacy of ignorance, intolerance and - in death - ignomy."

So disagreeing with Leftist dogma makes someone ignorant. I am sure that would have sat well with the founding fathers who believed in tolerating a multitude of viewpoints.

Left-wing "pluralism" isn't that pluralistic because it only believes its own beliefs are valid in society.

Leftism=narrow-mindedness.

Falwell must be getting poked in his rear by his god-AND enjoying it.... Hope he rots in hell

One of the last real leaders of the church. He was hated because he spoke truth. He was loved by many because he spoke truth.

One of the last real leaders of the church. He was hated because he spoke truth. He was loved by many because he spoke truth.

Gail:

"I am shocked by the hatred that is being spewed. We don't all have to agree, but I find it ironic that those who hate right wing conservative Christians are so full of hate and intolerance...but isn't that what they are accusing us of. I too am thankful for Dr. Falwell and the legacy he leaves."

You just made a circular argument. His legacy was to spawn a generation of hate-filled bigots; and you expect their victims to not fight back?

You reap what you sow. Enough said.

RIP, Jerry Falwell. I won't miss you in the least.

Ultraliberal,

You have forgotten that:

"Those who are kind to the cruel are cruel to the kind."

Ok, so can we please tax the churches now?

Falwell was a Christo Fascist and good riddens.

Jerry Falwell will be remembered as he lived: at best, a mediocre bowler.

I cannot believe these postings. It is some of the most hateful and immature postings I have seen in response to the death of a man--any man. Sometimes less is more. Like mother used to say---if you have nothing nice to say--say nothing. Two wrongs do not make a right.

I love Jerry Falwell. He spoke the truth and there's nothing else to it. Just because he offends people doesnt't make him a bad man...I'm sure everyone has been offended at one point in their life. Jerry Falwell was a great man who honored God in everything that he did.

I went to Liberty University back in the 80's and I saw Jerry Falwell and how much he cared for people. Yes, he was controversial, but he did it out of passion, not hate. He would come on campus and just spend time talking to the students and wanted to be involved in their lives. He was happy, fun, a prankster, and loved people. I am very saddened by Dr. Falwell's death, but I know that he is being greatly rewarded in Heaven for the life he led.

"God is a Republican" - Jerry Falwell - 1979

"Jesus was the First American." - Jerry Falwell - circa 1977

"I do question the sincerity of people like the Reverend Martin Luther King..." Jerry Falwell - 1965

"Archbishop Desmond Tutu is a phony." - Jerry Falwell - August 24, 1985

"The Beast (The Antichrist) when comes he must be, of necessity, a Jewish male" - Jerry Falwell - 2006

"I hope to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we don't have public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them." - Jerry Falwell - 1979

"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'" - Jerry Falwell - September 2001

"The (gay-oriented) Metropolitan Community Churches are brute beasts and a vile and Satanic system that will one day be utterly annihilated and there will be a celebration in heaven..." - Jerry Falwell - 1984

So long sucker. Where is jesus now you silly bigot?

Ohh yea jerry f. the arrogant, ignorant, self-righteous, holier than thou, everyone who doesn’t believe the way I do is the anti-Christ, hate-bag.

A person like this is an icon and symbol of Christianity?

He was a "christian-wahabi" as I like to call these hetefilled Bigots.