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Bush following Blair?

I think most of us wish he had.

Too bad Blair is a poodle and Bush an 800lb. gorilla.

"I think John F. Kennedy set an unfortunate example when he told a group of Baptist preachers in Houston in 1960 that his Catholicism would have virtually nothing to do with his presidential decision-making. How could that be? I want to know how a political candidate makes decisions, weighs priorities, and gains strength in crisis." -- Mohler

Mr. Mohler, I think John F. Kennedy told those people that his Catholicism would not influence his decisions because there was an incredible amount of distrust of Catholics back then. I remember. The Pope doesn't have the influence today that the office used to have (or was still perceived to have). People were truly afraid then. Kennedy HAD to distance himself from the Pope's influence to get the job.

It makes me wonder now how much influence other groups have over our elected officials. I think Presidents have a huge amount of pressure & manipulation aimed at them. It's amazing that they can function. They have to be careful, thoughtful, not easily influenced, deliberative. And wise, oh so wise.

And how much influence do Bush's religious advisers have on him? I have always had a feeling that the Israeli's have had too much influence over Bush. And Tony Blair's influence over Bush at the beginning of this Iraq war? I don't like the way Bush was following Blair, instead of leading.

There are a lot more influences in the world than just religion.

I think religion's main influence over a person is in molding our system of ethics. But ethics come more from parents/adult role models than from religion. And they come early in life.

I, too, want to know as much as possible about a candidate, but if a candidate talks about religion, I'm inclined to think he's just pandering.

Mary Cunningham

I would bet almost anything that Mr. Mohler would not be able to vote for a Catholic, pretty much under any circumstances. Why? In April 2000, Mr. Mohler called the Roman Catholic Church "a false church" that "teaches a false gospel."
on CNN's "Larry King Live. He also said "As an evangelical, I believe the Roman church is a false church and it teaches a false gospel,". He also said "I believe the pope himself holds a false and unbiblical office" and he criticized the pope's efforts to create a dialog with Jews and Muslims.

Norrie Hoyt
What does it matter if MC is, or is not Mary Cunningham. She makes for interesting reading from a Catholic perspective. I like her postings. I only pick on Canyon (my favourite Christian believer) and BGone (my favourite non-believer and Hoaxbuster) if and when they seem a bit off from their usual postings. I love your postings too - very unpredictable and delicious.

On reflection I guess it's obvious that MC and MARY CUNNINGHAM are one and the same.

Anybody,

Is "MC" simply a shorthand for "MARY CUNNINGHAM" or are they two differnt people?

Mary Cunningham,

It's nice to see you back posting again. Your posts are always interesting and informative, and your being British and Catholic brings an underrepresented perspective, as do your historical analyses.

Your statistical analysis above is revealing and a novel approach to thinking about the panelists.

I'm sort of (but not terribly) sorry for our first encounter when you called me an atheist and I responded similarly.

Highest regards, Norrie

MC,

You must learn to pay no attention to bgone. He is like the grade school child who feels left out and wants attention. Sad, really.

Anonymous,

Just for clarification, you do realize that torture was not invented by President Bush? During WWII (long before President Bush, would you agree?), "torture" involved brutally killing someone. Japan used Chinese prisoners for live bayonnet practice for crying out loud. It is an insult to WWII Chinese prisoners to equate what they endured to that of today's "enemy combatants". Sorry we had to flush your Koran down the toilet. Boo-hoo. And don't think that the "greatest generation ever" in the US was immune either. There are scores of Filipino men, women, and children that were killed during WWII for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

Posting from Northern Ireland, eh BeGone? You sound just like the Rev Dr Ian Paisley.

I really do wish you would Be gone...some of the atheist posters are witty, some insightful. But you are crude at worst and just plain bad at best..

Religion/non-religion of panalists on "On Faith":

Unattributed (probably agnostic):2
Atheist: 1

Pagan:1
Jewish:2
Muslim: 1
Protestant: 12
Of which:
No branch mentioned:2
Baptist: 3
Episcopalian: 4
Evangelical: 3

Mormon: 1
Roman Catholic:1

Conclusion:this forum really does not represent the religious affiliations (or lack thereof) of the US! Overrepresented are Muslim, Jewish and Pagan (can't believe the last is even here!)and within the Protestant grouping Episcopalian (far, far too many). Severely underrepresented are Roman Catholic (should be at least 4), also under are atheist--should have another panalist.

Agnostic (at 2) are about right, as these usually masquerade as academics. I find them the most frustrating of all--these are the Crossans and Armstrongs of the world.

Mary Cunningham - you have great insight. What do you suppose the pope and Billy Graham discuss during their fact to face, heads of state meetings? Perhaps Rev Mohler could give us his opinion? Do southern Baptists really like to see presidents kneeling before the pope?

"I think John F. Kennedy set an unfortunate example when he told a group of Baptist preachers in Houston in 1960 that his Catholicism would have virtually nothing to do with his presidential decision-making. How could that be?"

I'd like to answer that, Dr Mohler.

Firstly: John Kennedy was raised a Catholic in the midst of Protestants. His family had moved from that most western province of Ireland--Boston!--to the heart of Yankeedom. No, not Boston but NYC, much moreso the capital of Yankeedom then than now. As a whole America was more Protestant than it is now (kind of like the South today).

Secondly: America in 1960--as Northern Ireland and to a lesser extent England today--distrusted Roman Catholics. They were charged with the semi-treasonous sin of double loyalty. It could not be elsewise as Catholicism has always claimed to be a universal faith. I would note that in 2007 the Pope is stilled burned in effigy every November, Guy Fawkes Day, when all of the UK gives thanks for their deliverance from Roman Catholicism. Today the heir to the throne could marry a Muslim but a Catholic is forbidden by law. Still....

Thirdly some religious suspicions--and I am talking here about Protestant suspicions--are very deeply ingrained. And America in 1960 was still very suspicious.

So Kennedy did what Catholics do in those circumstances. ?

He was smart. He kept his mouth shut about his Catholicism. He played it down. He said his faith did not affect him. His wife helped by quipping that it was unfair that he suffered so much for being a Catholic when he was such a bad one!

Even in today's America Roman Catholics tend not to broadcast their beliefs in the manner of Baptists. Or evangelicals. Or Muslims, frankly.

How many contributers here are RCs? There are about 60 million Catholics (and rising) in the US, that's one out of five. But you would never guess that here, would you? I'd say at a guess, the frequency is 1 out of 10--half--and one of them is Crossan and I would not call him Catholic!

So there is still some reticence on the part of the US Catholic community & we can see it on these pages.

Good point, Ba'al. Can I call you Al?

Here's what "religious" people do. http://www.tbo.com/news/nationworld/MGB8IXMVJXE.html?farksub=1

In this story from Florida, a woman is brutally raped. She goes to police, who find out she owes restitution, and they jail her. A guard refuses to let her have emergency contraception for "religious reasons." (Fortunately, she had already taken one dose.)

I wrote the last post about torture and Mr. Mohler

I am wondering what beliefs are behind the Bush administration's decision to torture prisoners and to continue to defend that practice? I notice that Dr. Mohler recently commented on what he called "President George W. Bush's brave and strategic support for religious liberty during his recent visit to Asia.". The people being tortured these days, as described in the article I cite below, are directly relevant to that struggle for religious freedom in China.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/29/AR2007012901755.html

nyway I am sure Mr. Mohler has no problem with this practice, as he once wrote "most [morally sensitive people] would also allow the use of far more serious mechanisms of coercion – even what we would all agree should be labeled as torture...We cannot deny that there could exist circumstances in which such uses of torture might be made necessary." I am sure that since he is a big fan of Mr. Bush that he would argue that torture is ok whenever the administration says it is.

All this to say that one should not necessarily expect civilized behavior from people who claim to be Christians (or Muslims), even if they can quote scripture (or the Koran) correctly.

God, in His infinite wisdom has informed me that He doesn't care what a candidate says on the campaign trail. God knows they all lie. But, there is one candidate who has just the right beliefs and is very honest about them. Problem is, he isn't a Christian and therefore can't get elected. God is very angry about that. This is a very competent person and would make a great president. God told me He may have to intervene. Too many hypocrites writing about religion these days.

Anonymous, what brought this about, what is your problem?

Dear Sir,

I agree with much of what you say in theory, however I disagree with your following statement
"I think John F. Kennedy set an unfortunate example when he told a group of Baptist preachers in Houston in 1960 that his Catholicism would have virtually nothing to do with his presidential decision-making. How could that be? I want to know how a political candidate makes decisions, weighs priorities, and gains strength in crisis." You may be correct that the example was unfortunate, but in context is is exemplery. Americans feared that their most powerful elected representative would be under the control of the Pope. Compare that with the Neo-Con in Executive Clothing we have today. God Bless you and yours.

Canyon, my old friend. Good to see you too!

I understand your concerns about the issue of Obama.

What you are talking about is dissimulation. It was never in the Al Qur'an, but it was the Shiite clerics who sanctioned that in their fatwas.

The Shiites are an Islamic minority within Islam who insisted that the leadership of Islam should pass on to the descendants of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. But the Prophet never named any successor, leaving the Muslim community to decide, and they did, the best among them by acclamation. Of course the Shiites did not acknowledge that.

Too many pretenders for Islamic leadership claimed to be descendants of the Prophet in history and naturally, the issue is contentious, leading the Shiites to be pursued and persecuted by Sunni caliphs who sees them as a challenge to their governance, thus leading Shiites to practice dissimulation.

Sunnis don't practice dissumilation as the Al Qur'an is very specific in its condemnation of hypocrites.

As for Obama, I have no doubt he is sincere in his Christian belief. You do know that Menem, a former President of Argentina, was a Muslim who converted to Christianity to better his chances in politics and acceptance in the public life there among other factors. And Artentina never become a Muslim state :)

I hope you are not treating Obama like the Moriscos or Merranos in Spain during the Inquisition. America is not medieval Spain. Let his voting records and what he has done for his constituents be the proof of Obama as a congressman for his people and country.

FAith, why do you post such drool on these listings? Time for a life change maybe?

And then there is the possibility of blaming religion for political convenience, as well as for personal clumsiness.

That's right their (candidate's, encumbant's ) truthful bios need to be publicized. Then if any aspects of their personalities as written, conflict with their decisions, then task through their expanation, can be taken to them.
Love Peace Light in a bun danca - Cameron

REVEREND - what goes around comes around. You've probably heard Bubba say that a time or two yourself. Soundbites go both ways. When Bubba finds out your holy Bible is a proved hoax what you sent around will come around to you. The big trouble for the fox in the henhouse comes when the hound dog wakes up.

I don't need to remind you of the URL. lol

The only reliable basis for judging a candidate for President, or anything else, is his/her past actions, including the action of voting.

A candidate's statement of his/her religious belief, or belief in anything else, is wothless in judging the candidate's fitness for office. Candidates will say anything they think will help them get elected.

A proclaimed religious belief is the least reliable of all beliefs, since it deals with matters that are unverifiable, both as to the content of the belief and as to whether the candidate actually believes what he says he believes.

EXAMPLE: George Bush proclaims himself to be a Born Again Christian. Yet his usual behavior displays none of the traits of Jesus. Rather, he often resembles the Abrahamic God in the midst of one of His deadly anti-human tantrums.

Actions speak more truthfully than self-serving declarations of virtuous beliefs.

Dr. Mohler,

So glad that you're back incirculatioin. I have been praying for you. Thank you for your intelligent perspective on this important issue. I heartily agree.

You said:

"As much as possible, I want to know what that human being believes at the deepest levels and how those beliefs form character, perspective, and political decisions."

I have no idea why you would want to know these very personal things about a candidate. There is no correlation between these things and good political leadership. Mr. Clinton, a Southern Baptist whom many feel was one of the most intelligent and successful of recent presidents, was absolutely immoral in office and was impeached by House for his personal actions.

Mr. Bush, a deeply religious man (by your definition) is responsible for 25,000 U.S. casualties and perhaps as many as 600,000 Iraqi deaths, mostly women and children, to date.

I see absolutely no connection between irrational belief systems used to gain office and actual performance in that office. I understand why you do, however, because you believe that all human beings should (and must) conform to your belief system to gain everlasting salvation in the word of Jesus Christ.

Thank you.

Jihadist,

Glad to see you and hope this week has begun well for you.

I was and am being coy in order to avoid posting the person(s) name. At current there is a major US political figure(s) whose history and upbringing was in the Muslim faith. That person(s) is now listed as having a Christian faith; certainly for political reasons as he(or she) has not showed any fruit, as the Holy Book of the religion listed on their political data sheet(s) says, that we will know a Disciple by.

The hairs on the back of my neck stand on end when I consider that a person(s) that may very well hold to a Muslim doctrine is attempting to gain power by lying about their faith. The Christian Holy Book never advocates lying, while the Muslim Holy Book even recommends it.

As American history has shown, a person may be elected to office if they are truthful about their world-view; history has yet to show that lying about your faith base will damn your political career or lead you to the top. I feel that the person(s) at question would be more likely to attain the position they strive for if they were truthful about their religious convictions than if they sought an acceptable religion in order to mask their own. History is soon to be written, and then we will know.

Canyon Shearer! My old friend! What is there to hide behind a "Muslim background"? I am a Muslim, but not American though. And so may be those seeking public offices who happened to be Muslim in the United States or Turkey or Malaysia.

The British Parliament has several members of in the Lower House of Parliament and in the House of Lords who are Muslims. There is never an issue about them being Muslims.

The only issue for all holders of public offices, Muslims or otherwise, is how they stand on any issue - budget, public transportation, education, etc.

Some decision may be coloured by their religious convictions - say on abortion and gay marraiges. I would say it is more personal conviction than religious convictions. Even secular humanists are divided on the last two issues.

I thank the Lord for Dr. Mohler's recovery! I agree one should reveal the substance of his faith and the role it plays in his life. It is universally recognized how lonely a leadership position can be and to understand how an individual deals with this, is extremely important.

I have to agree with Dr Mohler. Candidates run their campaigns built on other issues. To many, belief in God (or disbelief, as the case may be) is an important issue. Knowing where a candidate stands on God is as important to me as knowing whether they plan to raise or lower taxes.

How genuinely refreshing to see Dr. Mohler back after his medical problems. May the Almighty Creator continue to guide his recovery.

As a Christ-centered Catholic, I would agree with Dr. Mohler especially now more than I have in the past. We the voting public have a certain right to know the TRUTH about a presidential candidate's religious beliefs and its effects on said candidate's politics, policies, priorities, and perspective on life, America, and the world. We cannot afford moral relativism about any major issue facing the greatest nation on God's green Earth... especially not Iran within the larger context of, as President Bush has said in the past, "Islamic extremism."

I am from Canada, and here the view is don't ask, don't tell. If someone has religious views they keep them to themselves. I think this leads to an inherent mistrust because we will then make assumptions about their beliefs and as Dr. Mohler points out the person's beliefs will have an affect on their decision making.

So true. The worldview that is the foundation of any politician should be public information. As the voting public, we have a responsibility to scrutinize the basic philosophy and ideals of every candidate. These things are put into focus when we really understand someone's religious beliefs.

I'm glad you are recovering Dr. Mohler. I have been praying for you.

Thanks for the article, as usual I completely agree with you!

It's a blessing to see how the Lord has raised you up again Dr. Mohler. I know that I've been praying for you during these last couple of weeks.

Now, on to the question at hand -- I think that you are correct in your assertion that political candidates should be forthright and straightforward about their religious convictions or the lack thereof (though I would argue that atheism is very much like a religion). Everyone is influenced by their religious/philosophical presuppositions and to deny this is ignorant or foolish. I have more respect for a liberal protestant or staunch Muslim who is up front about what he believes and acknowledges the influence it will have on his decision making and policy formulation than a politician who claims to be a conservative Christian, but is one in name only and is only pandering to the Religious Right in order to get votes.

Religion is not to be paraded or bandied around in politics, but rather it should be presented like a candidate's education -- it is intrinsically a part of him and will influence his every decision, but it doesn't need to be thrown around in order to impress people or make a good impression. Rather people should see the results of it as they are expressed through a candidate's life and character.

Speaking of presuppositions and being straightforward, I will disclose that my opinions are influenced that I am a conservative Christian and would even accept the title "fundamentalist" if I were allowed to define what exactly that means, though I prefer the label of separatist evangelical or confessionalist.

To summarize though, I believe a person's religion/philosophy are integral to his character and decision making and I believe that political candidates should give a discrete and yet straightforward disclosure of their religious beliefs.

Glad to see you back Dr. Mohler. Are you going to comment on the previous questions?

I agree with you on this issue: they should state their beliefs in God clearly and in a straightforward manner, out of running for office with integrity.

Dr. Mohler, glad to see you back and hope you are recoving well.

Before you are inundated with hatefilled replies and delusional secular posters who think they are without faith, I would like to say that I agree with you completely. Openly stating where faith is routed is exceedingly important to the trustworthyness of a candidate.

It is hard to trust someone who deliberately hides his muslim background or someone who quotes a single Bible verse ad nauseum in hopes that people will consider her to be a God-Fearing American.