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While I agree with Dr. Mohler's basic assumptions concerning Truth, I must disagree with at least 2 assumptions that appear to underly his comments.

The first is that there is some value to "conversation" which leads to finding "common ground." I find this assumption to be without merit. For the Christian and the non-Christian, there can be no common ground. The non-Christian is at root a hater of God, one who despises the idea that he or she needs to change and plead for salvation.

The Christian's own nature is also to hate God, but this is where any commonality ends. The Christian, by God's grace, is in the process of putting to death his or her own nature and taking on the nature of Jesus Christ. As such, the Christian has the capacity for love of and obedience to God, and is motivated by such things. No amount of "conversation" can paper over the fundamental rift between the Christian and the non-Christian, and no common ground should be sought nor can be found.

The obligation of the Christian is to deliver the Gospel message to the lost - the message that Jesus Christ, God the Son, allowed himself to be sacrificed so that our sins might be forgiven and that we might escape the eternal torment of hell. Jesus Christ is our Lord, He rose from the dead and reigns forever as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Because He lives, those who belong to Him also have the hope of life. Those who do not belong to him have no hope.

We have no obligation to make this Truth pretty. We have no obligation to to make this Gospel relevant in a post-modern era, inoffensive, or in any way pleasing to the non-believer. Our sole obligation is to proclaim the message at whatever cost to us may be required.

Neither in this or any other era is there any common ground to be found here. The Gospel cannot and will not be compromised by God's people.

The second assumption with which I disagree, one inextricably related to the first, is that "Christian evangelicals" must treat the beliefs of others with "respect." Actually, as I recall Dr. Mohler explicitly states this, so it is actually assertion rather than assumption. And, it is nonsense.

In matters of faith, why should the Christian, who, again by the grace of God, possesses the Truth, respect the error of the damned? In fact, any acknowledgement that the non-believer might "have a point" is not only foolish but dishonest. The Christian does not believe that the non-Christian's beliefs concerning faith are worthy of respect. The Christian hates those beliefs as much as the non-Christian hates the Truth. There is no common ground, and no basis for respect. The non-Christian is dead. If there was such a thing as a spiritual EKG, the non-Christian would be a flatliner. There is absolutely nothing within the non-Christian to respect, and, absent the regeneration of God, there never will be.

And so we need to be honest. As Christians, the more we try to find "common ground" with those who do not belong to Christ, the more we will water down our message to make it paletable. There is already too mcuh of that going on these days. We must remember who we are and what our job is. We leave the compromises, errors and heresies to the Rick Warren's of this world.

Let me get this right:the bible(talmud/christian addenda)is the inerrant word of god. So let's see:we have Jesus raping his virgin mother, we have Lot offering his daughters to roving rapists, we have god snooping around his earthly garden and scoping out the lusts of Chavah and her living and breathing hunk, we have ole noboddaddy scraping his creations a couple of times, we have Moshe syncretizing the best in Mediterranean patriarchal biases, we have Joshua puttering about with the fine points of genocide and finally Yoshue tapping the essence in Essene thought in the best of Reader's Digest reductions. And to boot, it's a boring read. Much better the Aeneid or the Iliad: give me that blessed wine dark sea. At least one can sense the presence of a creating human mind rather than a passle of dried up scriveners.

Anyway,

IO SATURNALIA TO ALL AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT

Part of "classical logic" is that two opposing statements can not both be true. If person "A" makes a claim, and person "B" makes another that is in direct conflict, then the following statements are true:
1. BOTH can not be right.
2. ONE MAY be right.
3. BOTH MAY be wrong.

As a Christian, if I have the presupposition that the Bible is infallible and true, then any statement that is in direct conflict with the Bible must therefore be viewed as false by me. Where I must be careful (and where many Christians are NOT) is that my interpretation of individual Scriptures may be flawed. The Scripture itself is not flawed, but my fallenness may give me imperfect understanding.

The same is true for any religion. Any interfaith dialogue must understand that the "other" side believes that THEIR source documents are the absolute truth. Islam says Jesus was merely a great prophet. Judaism says he is NOT their Messiah - that the Messiah is yet to come. Chrisitianity (which is "fulfilled Judaism") says Jesus is the Jews' Messiah. Obviously, only one of the interpretations can possibly be true.

Al Mohler rocks! The world could use a few more Al Mohler's - a lot more.

Many claim that an "interfaith dialogue" cannot take place because evangelical Christians start from a presupposition of claiming that the Bible is the Word of God and is therefore absolute truth. This begs the question: what is the purpose of an interfaith dialogue? Any honest evangelical Christian (such as Dr. Mohler) will explicitly say that his or her primary, if not exclusive, motivation for participating in such a dialogue is to share the good news of Jesus Christ so that those who do not know Him will come to know Him.
Most evangelicals do not rely on their own powers of persuasion or some vast overwhelming body of evidence (although such a body of evidence does exist) to convince unbelievers of the truth of Christianity. Evangelicals simply continue to proclaim the same message they have for some two-thousand years: Mankind is separated from God because we have sinned and fallen short of His glory (we have not lived up to our status as God's image bearers); God has assigned the death penalty for all humanity because we have sinned (this penalty includes both physical death and everlasting separation from God); God so loved the world, despite our sin, that He sent Jesus Christ (God in flesh) to perfectly bear God's image in our place and take our punishment for failing to bear His image; He raised Jesus Christ from the dead (an irrefutable truth upon which all of Christianity hinges ("for if Christ is not raised then our faith is in vain") to show that the work of Christ is acceptable to Him. The only way for us to be reconciled to God is to BELIEVE these truths and repent of our sins and turn to God as our only hope.
An interfaith dialogue is possible because evangelicals believe that anyone who has ever truly embraced what I have written above has done so because he or she has been "born again" (given a new heart and mind by God through His Holy Spirit). By virtue of this fact, unbelievers need not fear that evangelicals will practice coercion in promulgating what we believe.

Truth is NOT relative. Truth, by definition, is absolute. Opinion, however, IS relative. That is at the base of the discussion regarding the authoritativeness of Scripture.

The problem with these ecumenical discussions is that everyone is under the assumption that all positions are equally true - a false assumption. Another assumption is that all are there to learn. If so, who would teach? How are we to KNOW which truth is reliable and which is faulty if all positions are equally valid?

Faith is the issue, and it always will be. What (or better yet, Who) will you trust? You might be sincere in your faith, but you may also be sincerely wrong. Why not approach the Scriptures with a different tact - the "what if it's true" tact. What are the implications on our lives, our communities, our nations, and our world? What would be the destiny of the millions of people who arrive at a different conclusion? Everyone must die at some point, and meet the truth. Opinions don't matter at that point. What then? What will be the cost of living a life in rejection of the Bible because you "don't like it" or disagree? If we approach it as "true" and live accordingly (I don't mean perfectly, but the Bible shares the means of dealing with our fallibility), rejecting the Lord's teachings has dire consequences. What are you willing to risk to have your own way rather than the Bible's?

Matt. 10:14-16

14And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. 15Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.16"Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

I think the important thing here is one's reason for engaging in the conversation. Are you here to learn something or simply to try to convert others to your way of thinking?

Seems to me it's hard to come in with a desire to learn if you start with a claim to "a biblical authority that is absolute, universal, and timeless". You've already placed a definite limit on the conversation there.

I'm also troubled by the claims of special personal revelation. How does one separate mere opinion from Divine revelation? Isn't it harder to change your opinion; to learn anything if your opinions are to be afforded the authority of having emanated from God?

For Christians, it's all about a personal encounter with Jesus Christ. The believer has an encounter with the person of Jesus Christ and, as a result, his or her mind is renewed. Non-believers call this "indoctrination." From the outside looking in, it may appear like indoctrination. But that is the impression of someone who hasn't experienced that renewal first-hand.

"All I know is I was blind and now I can see." Everyone who genuinely believes in Jesus Christ for salvation has had that same experience, told in a way that uniquely reflects his or her redemption. The Bible says that those who don't have Christ are seeing the world through a veil. The authentic Christian believes this to be an accurate statement of non-Christians. Does that make us hate non-believers?

Take an honest appraisal of the legacy of Christianity--it's positive attributes. What lengths have believing Christians gone to to love their brothers and sisters? What faith has built more hospitals, orphanages, soup-kitchens, schools, libraries, and universities than Christianity? If we consider the positive aspects of Christianity, its impact on the world is unequaled.

A genuine faith in Christ makes a person love more, not less. Authentic Christians go to extraordinary lengths to care for the people of the world.

Rev. 22:12-15

12"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." 14Blessed are those who wash their robes,[a] so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Someday they will know Jesus! But they will be outside the gates with the dogs!

DON,
Thanx for perceiving and emphathizing with my weariness and for the gentle rebuke. For years, I have been increasingly agonized about all that is opposed to God not only in this world but deep down in me. I rejoice exceedingly that even as we type, Jesus is seated in omnipotence subjecting all things to Himself. I don't often allow myself to be exposed to the ramblings of the ungodward, so the journey through these comments depressed me.

I hope this thread has fizzled out since I don't think some of these folks would appreciate being referred to as "vessels of wrath." But indeed, we are all either eternal glorious containers of grace or containers of God's beautiful wrath. I shudder to watch as men, who will be justified by their words or condemned by them, continue to "store up wrath for the Day of Wrath."

He Reigns!

Ed,

I kow how you feel, believe me. I don't know how Dr. Mohler can keep on reading these articles by militant atheists. It would drive me crazy! But the apostle Paul was a vessel of wrath, as we all were at one time, and look what the Lord did fir him--and us! Matthew 5:43-48.

DON,

Alas..sigh, you are correct. Light need not have fellowship with darkness, but we must proclaim Christ to all. Thank you for the reference to wise Paul in Athens; indeed we must engage those who remain hostile to the Supremacy of Christ and persevere with them.

Come quickly, Lord Jesus. I am much less patient with these vessels of wrath than you, sweet Lord.

DON,

Alas..sigh, you are correct. Light need not have fellowship with darkness, but we must proclaim Christ to all. Thank you for the reference to wise Paul in Athens; indeed we must engage those who remain hostile to the Supremacy of Christ and persevere with them.

Come quickly, Lord Jesus. I am much less patient with these vessels of wrath than you, sweet Lord.

Ed,

As a Calvinistic brother of yours and Dr. Moholer's, I believe that we ought to, indeed are commanded, to talk about the truths of Christ with those who do not believe. Is this not what Jesus commanded in the Grat Commission? Is this not what the apostle Paul did at Mars Hill? We are to do it with humiliyty (my previous remarks to atheists notwithstanding, but we are to do it with conviction, not as those who shrink back but those who persevere and are saved. Hebrews 10:39.

As a dear Calvinist brother of Al Mohler, I must ask 2 questions:

Can we who adore the self-revelation of God in Scripture have any fruitful conversation with men who deny the crucial premise that the Bble is indeed that Revelation?

Can a spiritual man substantively discuss spiritual truths with men who are still at enmity with God?

Mark L,

Well said. Particularly your final paragraph I find insightful and instructive. I hope this is the type of logic that will govern the "On Faith" forum going forward. One might call it ironic here (or profoundly appropriate) that Jesus exemplifies what we should strive to emulate in these type of discussions on faith: deep convictions held about what is truth, with humility and incredible patience towards those who differ.

It's fascinating to me that much of this discussion has captured precisely a misunderstanding Dr. Mohler is trying to adjust. I find your words spot-on, and indeed evidence of the essence of Dr. Mohler's post.

This is a fascinating discussion. It begins with a very good question -- about the possibilities of mutual respect where people hold to absolutes. Few questions are more significant in our world.

After Dr Mohler's post -- a clear one and without rancor or criticism of anyone else -- the discussion begins and at times becomes harsh, insulting, defensive, and demeaning.

It would seem that the only absolute is the absolute of tolerance and anyone who dares to think there is another absolute is anathema. In the name of tolerance the discussion becomes intolerant and mean.

This is an interesting problem.

I do not think the issue is whether people believe in absolute truth - I think the question is whether there can be humility and respect for others who differ. It is this that marked Jesus out as unique -- no one said more outrageous and fierce words than he, and no one should greater honor to his critics and opponents than he. Humility can be joined with commitment to absolutes.

John,

You say that faith and certainty are opposites. But the Bible says that ffaith is the certainty of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1. I find it curious that you lambaste Dr. Mohler for having the strength of his convictions. Wasn't it the Roman dictators and the Roman empire who believed there were many ways to their gods, and ended up persecuting the Christians? We need more men like Dr. Mohler who are firm in their convictions. Jesus demands nothing less.

Tonio,
I have enjoyed our exchanges. I am not sure I quite understand your dilema with anger and shame, but let me shift gears a bit. I believe their is a wrong kind of shame and a genuine kind of shame that are both related to moral issues. There is another kind of shame that is unrelated to moral issues altogether - the kind of embarrasment you feel for example when you make a verbal gaffe or come dressed the wrong way to a party unintentionlly. However, all shame I believe is related to the failure to meet expectations that are placed on us by ourselves or others. With regard to moral shame, it is possible and quite common in my mind to experience a flase kind of shame due to false expectations. In other words, one can be made to feel guilty when no real guilt is present. However, genuine and useful shame can result from real guilt. If a person steals what is not theirs, they ought rightfully to feel shame, because they have real guilt. Notice that shame is an emotion that is triggered by a conscience sensitive to guilt. However, guilt itself is an objective reality. If one steals they are guilty whether they feel guilty or not. They may only experience a degree of shame for their wrong-doing in connection to how properly informed their conscience is and how sensitive it is to their guilt. Nonetheless, a conscience can be defiled so that it is either hardened to guilt and therefore the experience of shame or misinformed as to what constitutes real guilt. In the latter case, one may experience shame from a false sense of gulit. For example, if a parent constantly harangues his child for poor grades in school and tells him over and over again that he is a stupid idiot, most likely that child will have a false sense of guilt producing false shame.

The important thing in this whole matter ties into my previous post. God has given us a moral conscience so that we know what is right and wrong. But that conscience as I said can be defiled. We can experience false shame and use that to justify all shame as being bad. But not all shame is bad. When we fail to meet God's expectations, we should feel shame because we are truly guilty. However, we need not live with that shame. Genuine shame is the conscience's warning system that tells us we must deal with our guilt before God. The wonder of God's mercy is that he freely offers total pardon and forgiveness for real guilt and shame. This is what is liberating about the gospel message of Christianity. It removes our guilt and shame and gives us peace with God and peace with ourselves and others. It is the showering of God's love upon undeserving sinners.

I'd love to dialog with you more. But perhaps this is not the best forum. You can e-mail if you like at scottjen@wildblue.net.

If the purpose of a conversation is to learn from each other and potentially change someone's mind, then the only person Dr. Mohler can have a conversation with is himself. He is not interested in changing or altering his opinion as he knows that he is right. He has a self-justified worldview that says he must share the "truth" but he is under no obligation to question it. He is willing to engage in conversation only so long as he has the potential to change someone's opinion to match his own, and therefore make him a fellow believer in the one truth known as Jesus.

I've spent many hours reading Dr. Mohler's work, listening to his shows, and have even had two brief conversations with him on his radio show. He is not interested in any truth other than the choice he has made. He seeks souls not common ground. He wants all people to be Christians and most Christians feel the same way. There is no need to converse since someone like Dr. Al has not only a closed mind when it comes to seeking the truth, he has a closed heart.

Someone wrote that the opposite of faith is not doubt but certainty. Dr. Al is forcefully certain that he is right and nothing short of a direct conversation with God will ever change that. He's perfectly nice to talk with, polite etc., but you have a better chance of learning another version of the truth and finding common ground with a brick wall. The version of Christianity that Dr. Mohler believes in can accept no other faith or version of the truth, period. Even other believers' fall short if they are open to more than one truth, more than one way to God, or the possibility that God may not really exist as the Bible says so. It is pointless to argue with people who believe that there is only one truth and that they know what it is. They stand on sand but as far as they are concerned, it is as solid as the tablets Moses carried down the mountain.

The best of them will continually try to save your soul. The worst of them will damn you to Hell. Both of them will do so in the name of “love” and “truth”. You can call a chat you have with a salesman a “conversation” but when was the last time one of them said, “Actually, you’re right, this product sucks and you shouldn’t buy it”? Dr. Al is a sales rep for Jesus. He has just one product and he no intention of ever altering his view regardless of what you might say. That as they say, is a non-starter…

Dr. Mohler;

Amen.

"But what we suffer from today is humility in the wrong place. Modesty has moved from the organ of ambition. Modesty has settled upon the organ of conviction; where it was never meant to be. A man was meant to be doubtful about himself, but undoubting about the truth; this has been exactly reversed."

G.K. Chesterton

Scott, I will share with you my own experience of moral conscience. For all my life, whenever someone has gotten angry, I have had feelings of guilt and shame. This happens even when I have done nothing wrong, or even when I'm not the target of the anger. My conscience tells me that I've done something wrong when someone gets angry. I have those feelings of guilt and shame when I get angry. I almost never get angry, but when I do, the adrenaline hangover leaves me shaky for a couple of hours, and I feel intense feelings of shame for losing control of my emotions. In my view, if I was truly worthy of love and approval from the Christian God or from other people, I would never do anything wrong in the first place.

Tonio,
First of all, I am enjoying this dialog and you have good questions.

You said:
"If I believed that I was judged by God for my actions, I would not apply that belief to anyone else."

Do you not believe that the laws of a nation apply to the citizens of that country without general exceptions? Why should one citizen be immune from its law and another not? The analogy here corresponds to the teaching of the Bible which indicates that all people are under the moral law of God. You may ask where does this law exist? It resides in the human heart. According to Romans 2:14-15 everybody has a moral conscience based on the moral law of God. They have that law written on their hearts because God created human beings as moral creatures with moral responsibility. The very fact that all civilized (and even uncivilized for that matter) nations have laws to govern their people - to restrain evil and hopefully promote the welfare of its citizens testifies to the universal moral repsonsibility of human beings. This is part of what it means to be created in the "image of God." We bear the stamp of God's moral character.

However, the truth of God as reflected in His moral law written on our hearts has been spurned. We have supressed that truth by defiling our conscience and so rebelling against God. This is the careful teaching of Romans 1:18-3:20. Just as the laws of a nation have sanctions against those who violate those laws, so also God demands sanctions against human being because they stand guilty. The reality of their guilt is known within their conscience. However, humans supress their conscience and devise clever ways to justify their moral failure, usually by subtly exalting their own character and thinking more highly of themselves than they ought. The history of the 20th century alone ought to testify to the corruption of the human heart with all its wars and sensless slaughter of others. The host of holocausts in this century alone far outstrips the genocide all previous eras of recorded history. The prevalence of crime at every level of society testifies that no one is immune to this grand rebellion against the Creator. The Bible says that if we deny we have sin, we make God a liar (1 John 1:10). That is harsh sounding, but on the other hand humans have a remarkable propensity to cover up their own culpability.

You also said:
"Since any deity or deities can't be perceived by our five senses, is belief in these beings a matter of faith? Is it a matter of personal revelation? Is it a matter of personal experience of the divine..."

This question loosely ties into my previous comments. Again according Romans chapter 1 and 2 every human being is aware of God's existence. He has testified generally to all human beings through 2 avenues. The first is our moral conscience that I already mentioned. Our moral senses point to a supreme moral being who created us in His image (i.e. to reflect His moral charcater). The second way we know God is through what has been created. The remarkable order, design, beauty and purpose of nature (the Bible refers to it as creation) testifies to a wonderful Creator that cannot be denied. Yet, unfortunately this same text of Scripture indicates that we have supressed this reality in order to justify our rebellion against the Creator. In our modern day, the battle between Evolution and Intelligent Design/ Creationism is not simply a battle about what constitues good science. That is a smoke screen for a much deeper and more serious battle with the underlying rejection of God in our culture and the rabid desire to justify God's non-existence and therefore our lack of moral culpability before Him. These 2 avenues of knowing God is called General Revelation and applies to all human beings.

However, the more important avenue for gaining knowledge of God is thru Special Revelation. Christians believe God revealed Himslef in history and codified that revelation in the Bible. However, the greatest revelation of God came through the incarnation of His Son Jesus Christ who came to earth as a human being to comunicate the fullest essence of God possible. This is why Jesus is central to the Christian faith. He is the supreme and only mediator between God and man (Acts 4:12; 2 Timothy 2:5). General Revelation points to man's accountability before God and will serve to condemn him if he does not act in response to his rebellion to the great King. But it is only through Special Revelation (i.e. the Bible and Christ) that we can gain true access to God and the solution to our impossible predicament as human beings. The first kind of revelation is self-evident though often severely supressed as I said. The second kind of revelation must be accepted by faith. But understand that faith is not incredulous. It based on superb and undeniable facts of truths that ought to resonate with us all, but unfortunately do not.

All of this means that Christianity is not a personal religion that appeals to personal preference. I can decide what tooth brush to use to brush my teeth and should not demand that all people use that particular tooth brush. But we cannot dismiss the God of the universe who created all human beings to worship and serve Him. He has not allowed that option. Those who reject Him unfortunately must one day face Him. Those who are willing to search Him out and seek the truth shall find Him, and they shall find Him to be supremely loving, gracious and forgiving of our iniquities and weaknesses and shall strengthen us for every good thing that He has designed and prepared for those that love Him.

Anonymous, you are right. Everyone does defin good or evil as he or she sees it, and that is precisely the problem. Or, as the Bible stattes it, "Everyone does what is right in his own eyes." I don't remember whether it was Tolstoy or Dostyevsky, but one of those authors wrote that if there is no God, everything is permissible. I couldn't agree more.

Scott C,

I appreciate your comment about some Christians appearing to make threats.

"God ultimately judges all people for their actions. This is not the arbitrary teaching of Christians; it is the teaching of the Bible which is accepted by Christians as the revelation of God Himself."

I don't understand why one person's religious cosmology has to include other people. If I believed that I was judged by God for my actions, I would not apply that belief to anyone else. In my view, if I did that, I would be attempting to blame others for my actions, or else I would be attempting to claim responsibility for others' actions.

Since any deity or deities can't be perceived by our five senses, is belief in these beings a matter of faith? Is it a matter of personal revelation? Is it a matter of personal experience of the divine, what Christians might call experiencing God's grace? Or is it a combination of the three? To me, all three seem to be intensely personal experiences. I can't even begin to imagine what someone else's revelation or experience of the divine is like. If one person's personal revelation convinces him or her of the divinity of Buddha and another's personal revelation convinces him or her of the divinity of Jesus, I have no business telling either of them to reject those beliefs. I am not responsible for other people's religious beliefs.

"The whole matter turns on the authority of God and whether or not He has revealed Himself and His purposes for us. At the very least it behooves you to read the Bible (especially the New Testament) and consider the divine claims it makes for itself. As someone else previously noted, the Bible speaks for itself."

Again, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. My interpretation of what you said is that you seem to regard the inerrancy of the Bible and the existence of God as self-evident truths. I hold no religion's truths as self-evident, not even my own religious beliefs. As I said before, my impression is that believers hold certain truths because they have had some sort of personal experience or revelation of the divine. Is that accurate?

While it would be pointless of me to discuss my own disagreements with any religion's doctrine, I will share my own experience of reading the Bible. I have found the book to be very sad and very scary. But I don't expect or ask anyone else to have that same experience.

Don Maurer:

You stated "I ask you, who defines good and evil anyway, if there is no ultimate Source?"

I do. You do. Every person does. You believe you have an understanding of an ultimate source, others believe they also have understandings of other ultimate sources, and some of us don't think there is an ultimate source after all.

I think many non-Christians have reasons to challenge whether 'Christianity' provides a basis for behavior that we view as 'evil' -- both in the past and the present.

Dr. Mohler, thank you for your gracious, but strong conviction that the Bible is the Word of God revealing Jesus Christ. Twenty years ago Jesus Christ intervened in my life and I have never been the same. He took care of the greatest problem I had - my sin. My sin brought guilt and pollution to my heart and conscience. God the Father freely forgave me and cleansed me by the power of Jesus' blood. Jesus Christ saved me from sin, death, and eternal judgment. He saved me from the futility of this life! He saved me from my self-righteousness. Jesus Christ is a wonderful Saviour. He is a Friend for sinners!

Dr. Mohler, I am absolutely flabbergasted at the audacity of these atheists who call themselves "intellectuals." I thought this was supposed to be a reasoned dialogue, but apparently all these people are interested in is spewing their vitriolic hatred against you and all Christians. They call us "stupid" and "obscurantist." Yet, have any of these people, and their heroes--Harris, Dawkins, Gould, Hawking, etc.--even bothered or attempted to read Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin or Edwards, let alone the apostle Paul? They say that God is "evil." I ask you, who defines good and evil anyway, if there is no ultimate Source? Marx, Stalin, Hitler, and others tried to do that, and history recores the disatrous results. Atheists, if you are not afraid of the words of Christ, please let me quote them to you: "Physician, heal thyself." In other words, look in the mirror before you deign to call Christians "stupid" or "anti-intellectual." O, that the Lortd would grant you the ability to humble yourselves before Him and come to the Great Physician. Dr. Mohler, keep up the good fight.

Chris,

You stated:
"Truth is offensive - divisive at the core. Truth tells us that 'this is right' and 'this is wrong'. We wrestle with this issue because we confuse 'Truth' with 'belief'. Belief told Hitler that murdering Jews was to be encouraged - just because he believed it - did not make it True."

So, all I need to do is classify your world-view as 'Beliefs' and my world-view as 'Truth' and we're done -- didn't realize it was that easy.

The one thing most people object to in your article is that you believe that God has spoken truth to us through the Bible. I have seen several responses that assume you must drop this belief in order to enter the conversation. It seems that it should be the opening question of the conversation; "Has God revealed His truth through the Bible." There are many good reasons that Christians hold this belief, though it is often misunderstood as a product of dogmatics.

I think the comments here show that you can't have a dialog because the other side shuts you out the second they hear your world view. You read the article "Beyond Belief: Science, Religion, Reason and Survival." The comments made there are the same ones you will see on the internet, only on the internet they will be much cruder.

If you are not "allowed" to hold a world view that includes the bible then how can you start to talk about God? You were setup by the Liberal media
elite. The whole point of this site is to bash religion. Please don't play thier game!

It's really sad to see the vicious intolerance of the strong position Atheist. I feel many make a fatal error in the presumption that there is no God without the ability to prove so.

My main problem is with Atheists that support and advocate the religion of secular humanism. These people manufacture morality and try to sell it to the masses when they have absolutely NO ground to stand on when one reduces man-kind to nothing more then carbon and chemicals through the process of neo-Darwinism. The problem I see, (and did see because i'm a former Atheist) is that even though Atheists reduce life to pure naturalistic causes, they don't follow suit in the absolute necessity of similar reductions of issues like morality, reason, and life purposes and obligations. Instead they create direction and universal meaning, and spew it out as truth and correct procedure when it truely cannot exist.--This line of thought is laced with hypocrisy! Take Dawkins for example: He believes the only ultimate point to life is the passing of DNA through reproduction, yet he's so concerned with the welfare and delusion of Christians and the nature of truth itself, why?? and for what??

I got news for you Atheists, assuming your beliefs of pure naturalistic, evolutionary reduction is true, then no one has any obligation to anything or anyone but one's self. So please spare me the lecture on any number of issues, because if I didn't believe, I would be a Nihilist who wouldn't care at all about your own personal opinions or concocted worldview.

I mean, where is all your anger and confrontation getting you?? If you really believe this life is the do all end all, is it really worth it? Isn't there more productive ways to spend your time? If you're correct, Atheist, we'll never know, secondly, then life is comparable to a small grain of sand in a gigantic hourglass that passes quickly (brutally and unjustly for some), and without meaning.

The reality is that secular humanism is nothing more then an exercise in futility. A passing of the wind. Atheist, your passion and animosity for this baseless worldview is fickle and frivolous, to say the least.

What was just said by this Chris fellow was brilliant! It must be the name:)

Our conscience alone should be enough to prove the existence of God.....but we suppress the truth in unrightousness (Rom 1:18). To deny absolute truth is to make one's self a hypocrite. For to believe anything is to also say that you believe it's true. Who would believe in something they know is wrong? And to believe there is no absolute truth means that you believe that idea to be true. Do you see this ridicules line of thought.

I think it all boils down to whether you believe in the existance of God. If God created us in the image and likeness of Him, then He must be a loving God - for we are capable of love. What kind of loving God would create and not reveal. People "suppress the truth" of God's revelation in the bible because of what it say's about them, and what it demands from them. There are no errors in scripture, and to say there is, is to make a statement about something you know nothing about. A person has to aknowledge his utter depravity to even begin to see this though, and man doesn't want to see himself as evil, and in need of anything, or anyone. Repent of your sin,and honesty plead with the God of the bible to enlighten you and he WILL do it. To those who don't believe the bible, I plead with you to consider this. Eternity is around the corner! You don't get a second chance. God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness(2 Peter 1:3)in the bible. To die without faith in Christ means eternal punishment beyond comprehension. Don't make this eternal mistake.

Tonio,
You said,

"What I don't understand is the impulse to threaten people with eternal damnation if they don't get right with God... It sounds like emotional manipulation."

I agree some well meaning Christians appear to make threats when seeking to talk about people's accountability before God. One of the central truths of Christianity is related to divine justice. God ultimately judges all people for their actions. This is not the arbitrary teaching of Christians; it is the teaching of the Bible which is accepted by Christians as the revelation of God Himself. The heart of the gospel message of Christ is that He satisfied the just demands of God against sinful human beings. All people have experienced the crippling effects of moral failure and therefore stand culpable before God. God cannot turn a blind eye to injustice in the world and must demand an account of it all one day. Each human being in involved in one way or another in acts of moral rebellion against others, but ultimately against God who demands our moral perfection as our authoritative Creator. Unfortunately, we as human beings are unable to meet the demands of God's moral standards, but Christ did. The heart of Christianity is that Christ did what was impossible for us because He is the perfectly righteous and sinless God-man. He acts as a surrogate before God, supplying us with: 1) the ncessary righteousness to meet God's demands and 2) paying the price of our moral failure to meet the just sanctions of God's demands through His death on the cross. The 'faith' of Christianity is the personal entrusting of one's self to the person of the resurrected and Living Christ accepting what He has done on behalf of the one who believes in Him.

You said:
"What I'm saying is that it's very possible that the believer has an objective for me that has nothing to do with God and is merely using the name of God to lend the agenda some credibility."

You should never believe in God/ Christ because I or any other Christian says so. You should believe in Christ because He Himself says so. You don't stand accountable before me, any other Christian or any other person regardless of their beliefs. However, if God is who He says He is and He has created you and has authority over you, you are obligated before Him. The whole matter turns on the authority of God and whether or not He has revealed Himself and His purposes for us. At the very least it behooves you to read the Bible (especially the New Testament) and consider the divine claims it makes for itself. As someone else previously noted, the Bible speaks for itself.

I won't quote your last paragraph, but it contains rather perceptive questions and gets to the heart of the matter of defending truth claims. I am saying that Christianity alone is true and makes sense of the world. If that is the case its truth is revelant for all people in all times and in every concievable situation. Its claims hold true whether one accepts it or not, just as the laws of gravity hold true for all things whether it is accepted or not. I operate from a Christian worldview because I have no other choice, just as the engineer accepts the laws of gravity when he designs a bridge. If he ignores those laws dire consequences result.

All people operate from presuppositions so that ultimately all reasoning is circular. There is no such thing as epistemic neutraltiy. It is a myth and that is why all reasoning is circular. For example all philosophers use logic to make there points, but how to they justify the use of the laws of logic? They must engage in circular reasoning to do so. The christian is able to justify the laws of logic becaue he accepts the God who created the laws in the first place.

This leads me to another conundrum for the unbeliever. He uses the laws of logic, can't justify their use and all the while employs them to deny God. A wise Christian named Cornelius Van Til likened this senario to a child who sits in his grandfather's lap to slap him on the face. He could never slap him in the face unless he was enabled to sit on his lap by his granfather in the first place.

Shhhh......let's all take a breath and be quiet for just a moment. Hear that sound? It's the imprint that God left inside us all that will guide us toward truth if we just listen.

Truth is offensive - divisive at the core. Truth tells us that 'this is right' and 'this is wrong'. We wrestle with this issue because we confuse 'Truth' with 'belief'. Belief told Hitler that murdering Jews was to be encouraged - just because he believed it - did not make it True.

Belief is a personal matter. We group ourselves with persons of like beliefs. I can believe that I can fly - but that does not change the Truth that I can not.

If there is no Truth - then why is it wrong for me to abuse my family, steal, murder or cheat? What is the basis for you to reject the darkest of human behaviors - those who act on them believe them to be OK? We'd like to say that as humans, our intellects have 'enlightened' us to know the difference between right and wrong without holding to something called truth. Truth limits our actions and can cause the pain of hearing "what you did was wrong'.

Truth can be known - it has been revealed...and our consciences within us reflect that. How silly are we, when in the name of 'Tolerance' we work to silence the voice of those who claim to hold to something that we do not believe in?

It is God who says...."Come let us reason together".

It seems that everyone wants to converse about nothing. If faith has to be proven, then is there even such a thing as faith to begin with? If one can not make any absolute claims, then why believe in anything? Why are so many people threatened by the concept of absolute truth? If I truly believe the Bible is God's Word and discuss this with someone who does not believe the same can there not be mutual respect for one another while holding to divergent viewpoints.

In estimation, there are not any conversations worth having about nothing. If we discuss religion, God, or philosophy, there has to be truth or a real answer that is being sought. Discussing just to discuss is mere stupidity. If our culture fails to search for truth, we will cease to exist, because our entire basis of governemnt is founded on truths. We have ordered our lives upon truth.

I have a couple of good friends who are atheists...I am a Southern Baptist Pastor. We passionately disagree on every important point concerning matters of faith, ethics, etc. But, we can have a cup of coffee, and discuss, and yes disagree, while holding to different views. Yes...I want to change his mind...but I know I cannot...only God can. That is what I believe...can you handle it.

Thank you Dr. Mohler for speaking on this issue and for the work you are doing.

A lot of non-Christians posting here seem anxious to see some kind of empirical-rational evidence for God and the the truthfulness of the Bible. While there is empirical and rational evidence for at least large portions of it, trying to "prove" God and the Bible by empirical evidence and reason and the like strike me as being self-defeating. What it does is attempt to establish the authority of scripture by a different authority, namely human reason and the scientific method. All that does is make our own discoveries (possibly misperceived) and reason (definately fallible) the final judge of truth.

I don't feel the pull so much now that I once did to try and validate the Bible with history and science and reason, because the best testimony to scripture are itself and the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Those who reject scripture do not reject it ultimately because they lack evidence for it, they reject it because their will is opposed to the will of God (John 7:17).

I have read many of the posts, and have skimmed through many more. It's obvious that most of the posts either embrace the Bible, dismiss the Bible, or despise the Bible. Everyone has some type of opinion about it. Evidence Exhibit A: the nearly 200 posts. Of course, Christians should not be caught off guard about this discussion. Jesus himself tells that things like this will happen. Forgive me, but here's a rather long quote in which Jesus discusses this very issue:

"If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me hates my Father also."

Sounds like Jesus knew what He was talking about, huh?

I will praying for you all.

Owen, for your consideration, I will borrow the words of Syrinx from the main "Common Ground" thread:

"I still don't believe, and BELIEVER still does. But I didn't want to change someone's mind, I just wanted someone to listen to what I said in a thoughtful manner, and consider my point. That was all that person wanted in return, and maybe that's what we all want when our opinions are important to us."

You hit the nail right on the head Dr. Mohler. There is no point in having a discussion about what we belive unless we really believe it. The best thing to do is just be honest about what you believe. Why must everyone become offended when one says that he simply believes the Bible? Everyone, no matter what they say, has a standard of truth. That standard may simply be their own opinion, or it may be the consensus of scholarship, or it may be the holy book of their religion, or it may be an institution. But the fact remains that everyone appeals to something to define their reality. The question is what truth is really true? A good discussion, then, cannot take place on a superficial level. Instead it must begin with ones standard of truth. The question then is: Does your standard of truth give you the capability of understand life as it really is. I am a born again Christian. I only understand myself, the world, God, others, the future because God's word defines reality. It is only because of this that I can make sense of anything. These are the questions that need to be asked: How do you make sense of everything? Does it really make sense? Do you have answers to ultimate questions?

The last sentence in the fourth paragraph should read, "I think you may have a point if my religious beliefs caused me act in ways that harmed other people."

Owen,

"We Christians are stating truths we believe absolutely. You and many others are telling us, absolutely, that we should not advance such convictions upon you. Your absolutes are thus threatening our absolutes. You are preaching against our absolutes by the use of your own."

I do not see my religious beliefs as absolutes, and I apologize if I gave a different impression. And even if I did see them as absolutes, they would still apply only to me. My own religious beliefs involve the meaning and purpose of only my life and no one else's. They're about how I see myself in the universe and what rights and responsibilities I have in the universe. My beliefs do not even involve other people as far as requirements or expectations of them. That is because I see myself as responsible only for myself, and responsible for only my own conduct. I do not understand why I am part of other people's religious beliefs, or why I should be part of their religious beliefs. In fact, the very idea that I am part of other people's religious beliefs gives me a sense of vulnerability, even though that isn't what other people intend.

"But in advocating your own, you run up against what we all do: you are declaring my absolute truth invalid."

Why is that? I don't see how my religious beliefs have any intrinsic effect on other people, or why they should have an intrinsic effect on other people. I think you may have a point if my actions caused me to harm other people.

"You have a negative opinion toward me as well, because you think that I am hatefully declaring you wrong (which itself is hateful). You are doing the very same thing to me."

I apologize for giving you that impression. In most areas of life, I see a huge gulf between other people's intentions, which are a mystery to me, and my own emotions about other people's actions. I was trying to convey that gulf in my last post. I did not intend to impugn your motives. I simply cannot read other people's motives, not just in religion but in most of life. In most cases, I'm only aware of my own emotional reactions to people's actions. Are you familiar with Asperger's Syndrome?

"Let's just drop all this talk about hurt feelings and realize that we all disagree and that our disagreements involve our view of human nature."

Hmmm...I never thought of disagreements on religion as having to do with human nature. I didn't think the two subjects had much to do with one another. As an aside, part of Asperger's involves feeling disconnected from the rest of humanity, or as one expert put it, feeling like a psychologist from Mars.

Dr. Mohler was asked to respond to the question: "If some religious people believe they have a monopoly on truth, then are conversation and common ground possible? If so, what would be the difficulties and benefits of such a conversation?"

It would seem that he has proven the possibility of at least conversation, regardless of how one interprets "monopoly on truth", by the number of responses. And at least since the time of Pascal and DesCartes hundreds of years ago these kind of conversations have taken place, sometimes between people less civil toward each other than Dr. Mohler and you all.

The issue of common ground has been discussed a little by respondents, and at least some feel that those with opposing core values can at least find some common ground when necessary, even if motivations differ. For example, hopefully we all want to eliminate childhood polio from the world.

Some of the difficulties of such a conversation are clear from the hundred or so responses. But what really are the benefits? Why did all of you take the time to write? Did you all drink too much coffee in the evening like I did?

These kind of debates, whether live or online seem to be mostly for entertainment and/or therapy value, and for advertising revenue for the sponsors (in this case WashingtongPost and Newsweek).

I read every single post in its entirety (well, skimmed a few) and I don't think my worldview is changed in anyway. (In the theme of honest self-disclosure, I'm of Dr. Mohler's conviction, though it's often not been the comfortable choice for me or my family.) None in opposition to or support of Dr. Mohler has raised anything significantly different than what I've already heard and contemplated; and not because I'm sheltered and naïve--I've lived most of my adult live in contexts in which my beliefs are a minority view.

Anyway, I'm not saying that people can't change their core values, some on this list have described embracing or losing faith. But do people normally change by these type of interfaith discussions? (Not saying no one ever has, just curious whether any readers have.) Were one to change one's belief toward Dr. Mohler's view on the Bible, or away from it, it could have implications for many domains of one's life, depending on how consistenly one lived out one's beliefs before and after the change in belief. As others have already alluded to, it's questionable whether persuasion (either direction) is a realistic goal of such a debate.

If we really came to understand and respect each other more, that would make such discussions have significant value, but whether such debates accomplish this either I question.
I don't know that we can see enough of each person through her/his posts to really understand her/him. I live in Asia and many of my friends have worldviews about as different from mine as possible, yet we can share the "common ground" of meals, experiences, good movies, etc. In this kind of blog-format debate, there's no much room for that kind of common ground. Is literal "common ground" really what's necessary for more beneficial understanding? Do we need to share a beer and watch a football (soccer, that is) before we can really accept each other's different values and get on to beneficial conversation?

Enough, I'm going to bed. I'll be forthcoming with my motivations to post: I myself am the kind of person who has a terrible problem with not being able to restrain myself when I feel I have 2 baht to contribute, so I'm posting this to spare my poor wife. Why did you all feel it's worth your time to participate in such a debate?

Owen, I don't know what definitions you are using for "preaching" and "evangelizing." To me, those words suggest an agenda to change other people's beliefs. Is that how those words sound to you?

Tonio,

Thanks for your calm response. Respectfully, it is important that you know that your words are aimed at changing other people's views. We Christians are stating truths we believe absolutely. You and many others are telling us, absolutely, that we should not advance such convictions upon you. Your absolutes are thus threatening our absolutes. You are preaching against our absolutes by the use of your own.

You said: "My intention is not to advocate anything but the validity of my own opinions and my own emotions." But in advocating your own, you run up against what we all do: you are declaring my absolute truth invalid. So you are preaching or evangelizing just as I am.

You said: "If someone has a negative opinion about me, whether it's religious or secular, I have a right to feel hurt and invaded." You have a negative opinion toward me as well, because you think that I am hatefully declaring you wrong (which itself is hateful). You are doing the very same thing to me. Do you see this?

Let's just drop all this talk about hurt feelings and realize that we all disagree and that our disagreements involve our view of human nature. Then, we can get back to debating ideas.

At first I was overwhelmed at the many comments, and even frightened by the diversity of ideas which weren't based on any standard, other than personal opinion of one's own thought. Even Postmodern thought at least identifies it's sources, or maybe I've not understood it fully.

I am however encouraged that a conversation is happening, and that ideas and thoughts are being shared, though I'm wondering just how they are being interpreted by others; and I'm wondering how the originator of the conversation is viewing all of this. Having read Dr. Mohler often, I know that his opinions are realy brought forward with humbleness, which merely asks that one look at what he calls truth, and to ask the question if conversation is really posible. If we think about all the conversations that we've had in the last week, did we set a standard of truth before we engaged in them... probably not, that's what allows conversation to develop, but if during that time we weren't honest to those we had conversations with, what does that say about us. So I ask why it is so offensive if one states the basis of their belief system.

I know that the Cross of Christ is an offesnse to many, Scripture says this, but yet each one of us has the common denominator of being human. Based on that we need to allow conversations with all that hold to that identity, and unless there are some form of alliens here, everyone has that one thing in common. The truths that we hold to should not keep us from having conversations with those who do not agree with them, yet we who hold to certain truths need to hold them otherwise we are being deceivers.

Interesting conversations going on, it's a reality check on who we bump into as we work, play, and live life with our neighbors. And yes, I beleive that we can have conversations, even if our absolutes in Truth are different, those truths merely identify who we are, and how our actions in living out those truths are perceived by others.

Scott C,

"I believe Christianity alone meets the deepest needs of the human soul. When you discover something exciting and satisfying you want to tell others."

I can understand that. What I don't understand is the impulse to threaten people with eternal damnation if they don't get right with God. That to me doesn't sound "exiting and satisfying." It sounds like emotional manipulation, even when that isn't the believer's intention. From what I read about Nationals outfielder Ryan Church, it seemed like he truly didn't realize how hurtful his words about Jews were.

"You draw too much of a separation between authority and spirituality. Spirituality in our culture has come to mean anything that provides a euphoric, esoteric experience. Spirituality in Christianity means to live your life rightly."

I wasn't necessarily talking about any authority that God may possess. I was talking more about the claims made by monotheists about such authority. Again, this has to do with competing religions making competing and often conflicting claims about truth. From my emotional perspective, they all come down to some variation of "You should believe in Yahweh/Gaia/Allah/Buddha/etc because we say so." It feels to me like the believer is claiming to speak for deity, in a "Uh oh, you're in trouble" sense. What I'm saying is that it's very possible that the believer has an objective for me that has nothing to do with God and is merely using the name of God to lend the agenda some credibility.

"If all claims for truth are taken off the table there is no discussion...Without God, nothing makes sense, in fact nothing even exists. If the Bible is true, there is no such thing as an atheist."

While I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, it sounds like you're using a Christian frame of reference to address all claims to truth. Shouldn't it be possible to evaluate those claims without any subjective frame of reference, without any kind of partisanship or bias in favor of one's own faith? What if a religion other than Christianity is right about deity? What if, say, the Native Americans are right about there being many animal deities instead of one supreme being? What if some religions are partially right? What if none of them are right? I don't have the answers. All I have are the competing claims of religions that seek new members.

Tonio,
First of all, I appreciate your irenic spirit with me. You said:

"I am struggling to understand the source of the evangelistic impulse in so many religions. Why anyone cares about my religious beliefs is a mystery to me."

I cannot speak for other religions, however it seems axiomatic to me that human beings at the core of their being seek a life that is satisfying, fulfilling, etc... I believe Christianity alone meets the deepest needs of the human soul. When you discover something exciting and satisfying you want to tell others.

You draw too much of a seperation between authority and spirituality. Spirituality in our culture has come to mean anything that provides a euphoric, esoteric experience. Spirituality in Christianity means to live your life rightly. You cannot live your life rightly unless you have entrusted yourself to God's care. If God is the Creator and Suatainer of the universe, He rightful deserves our allegiance. As the beneficient Lord of the universe, He also provides for us our greatest needs through Jesus Christ. So spirituality becomes a question of authority - who do you serve?

You said in another post:
"I suggest that in any 'common ground' or interfaith discussions, all doctrines and all teachings about truth should be taken off the table. Whether there is a god, many gods, or no god - that's not relevant to such discussions. Neither is whether Jesus or Buddha were human or divine, or whether Mohammed ascended to heaven."

If all claims for truth are taken off the table there is no discussion. The whole discussion is about what is true. Whether there is a 'god' is paramount. Without God, nothing makes sense, in fact nothing even exists. If the Bible is true, there is no such thing as an atheist. Atheism according to the Bible is a clever ploy to avoid one's accountability before God. Consider the despair this sort of thinking led the French philosopher Jean Paul Sartre.

The divinity of Christ is essential to the truth claims of Christianity. Furthermore, Jesus claimed exclusivity for Himself. He said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6). To put the matter in modern parlance, no one can be spiritually enlightened (i.e. come into a relationship with the God of the universe) apart from knowing and embracing Christ for who He is. This is an extremely bold and exclusivist claim. As C. S. Lewsis once quipped, it makes Him either a liar, a lunatic or Lord. The evidence for the latter makes the former 2 options absurd. One must deal with these claims, for no other religious leader in history that even comes close to the stature of Jesus made such claims. An interfaith discussion must deal with these sorts of claims from Christianity because they purport to answer the deepest questions of life and existence.

As Dr. Mohler stated, as Christians we believe that God has spoken truthfully to us in the Bible--and supremely in Jesus Christ.

The Bible was written over many years by people who were writing in their own cultures, according to their own personalities, and addressing issues of their day. But God was inspiring every word! OK, the agnostic says "prove it". Well, you can't. God has chosen the avenue of faith. As the writer of Hebrews states, "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him". Hebrews 11:6 (NIV)

That said, there is compelling evidence that the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is an historical event. I refer to the book -- "The Case for Christ" by "Lee Strobel" which addresses this.

If one approaches the Bible with humility, an open heart, and asks God to come to him/her, God has promised He will.
But, if one approaches the Bible with pride, a closed heart, or arrogance, he/she will probably leave unchanged.

Owen, I don't know what definitions you are using for "preaching" and "evangelizing." To me, those words suggest an agenda to change other people's beliefs. Is that how those words sound to you?

From my standpoint, I have been simply stating my objections to what I perceive as a violation of my personal boundaries. Does it really sound like preaching to you? If you really think I'm telling you that your religious beliefs are wrong, I feel sadness at making you feel that way, because that's exactly what I wanted to avoid. I can't stand being told that I'm evil and worthless and deserving of death, and the thought of me telling that to someone else repulses me.

My intention is not to advocate anything but the validity of my own opinions and my own emotions. For much of my life, people have told me, mostly implicitly, occasionally explicitly, that my opinions and emotions have no validity. That is why I often sound defensive about religious matters. If someone has a negative opinion about me, whether it's religious or secular, I have a right to feel hurt and invaded.

Tonio,

You're not getting my point, and I'm sure it's not cause you're not trying. Honestly. I appreciate your calmer tone. But let me try to explain your hypocrisy. I'll list it in terms of propositions for you.

A. You do not like that people preach truth at you.
B. You preach to other people that they should not preach at you.
C. You (B) therefore are no different than the religious types (A). You are holding your commitments, and evangelizing based on those comments, just as strenuously (if not more) than they are.

Therefore, for you to say that you are not preaching is hypocritical. You're wrong to do so. You are preaching just as much as the fundamentalists are--it just so happens that your religion is based on self, rather than on God.

To make it abundantly clear: you and everyone else on here who advocate your brand of religion are no different than the fundamentalists. You preach just like we do. You make absolute truth claims just like we do. Yours just do not have the same religious content.

I hope this is clear.

This is an amazing discussion - thanks to everyone who is participating!

A lot of material has already been covered, but I would like to come back with some of my responses to things that have been posted here.

Alex Schievink – a lot of people to all have the same hallucination over a long period of time, wouldn’t you say?

JRH and Ellison Baxter – you’re right that terrible things have been done in the name of many religions, including Christianity – all the more reason why we should read what the Bible actually says (such as “love your enemies”) rather than dismiss it. Ellison, surely the fact that many slaves became Christians indicates that the person Jesus is wonderful enough to overcome even the horrors of slavery. It is an absolute shame the people who claim to be Christians would perpetrate or allow so many awful things to continue. But what about all the true followers of Jesus around the world who are being systematically persecuted simply for what they believe?

Brent Walker – check your facts on the Bible! The 3rd century council of Nicea merely affirmed the Bible that was already in use by thousands of Christians, the Bible which comprised Hebrew Scriptures plus the letters and teachings of the apostles which were in circulation through the early church and had been since about 40-70 AD. You write that “The real Bible is alive, present and edited daily in the interaction of the people of God” – what if two of those people differ? How are we to know which is right?

Ama – because the Bible’s view of God is inconsistent with how most people view God, does that make it wrong? The Bible as a historical document is more reliable than Caesar’s Gallic Wars or Pliny’s writings, yet historians regularly look to them to increase their understanding of that period.

Roo – logic works against you, I’m afraid. You ask us to accept the view that truth is subjective, but that belief in itself is objective. If truth is subjective and we must all accept each other’s versions are equally valid, then you must accept the version that says truth is objective…. (Thanks MG!)

Candide – how do you intend to prove faith? For example, I can’t do a repeated, controlled experiment to prove that Jesus lived 2000 years ago (scientific proof); but in terms of historical evidence, there is as much evidence for his life and death as for many other historical figures such as Julius Caesar, that no-one would claim never existed. Christianity, at least, does not require people to believe blindly – there is plenty of intellectual ‘meat’ to back up its claims. And, just out of curiosity, on what basis do you make your claims about the ‘real’ Jesus?

WBINCC, Ken, Renee – unfortunately there is a lot of hypocrisy in the church, and that’s something I struggle a lot with (and which led to me ignoring church altogether for a large part of my life). I look at it like this – you wouldn’t go to a hospital and expect to find a bunch of healthy people. Jesus came for the sick, the imperfect, and that’s who we find in the church. So what the church says (or should say) is not ‘we’re better than you guys’ but ‘here’s something that can help you, just as it has helped me’.

Renee, I’d like to add that many of the Founding Fathers were Christians, but with a much better understanding of the Bible and true Christianity than many right-wingers in America today. Sad.

WBINCC – read what Jesus actually says! He stops a woman caught in adultery from being stoned. He tells us to love our enemies.

Jim – where was Jesus? He was there, weeping as people chose to turn away from the life he offers and chose to slaughter, maim and hurt each other instead.

Teo, Anonymous – look into the things you denounce before saying they are irrational or without evidence

Nelson Cruz - "What we choose to believe is NOT FACT"
Presumably you know for a FACT that this is true?

Tim Coomar, I think "tolerance" is the wrong concept for interfaith discussions. As I see it, the problem is that all believers (me included) are engaging in a kind of ethnocentrism. We're all viewing other religions through the lenses of our own religions. Even among the Abrahamic religions, Christians view Jews as not pagans but heretics, and Muslims view Christians the same way.

I suggest that in any "common ground" or interfaith discussions, all doctrines and all teachings about truth should be taken off the table. Whether there is a god, many gods, or no god - that's not relevant to such discussions. Neither is whether Jesus or Buddha were human or divine, or whether Mohammed ascended to heaven.

Imagine a discussion about the benefits and drawbacks of believing in something greater than one's self. To be productive, such a discussion would have to be nonpartisan in religious terms. It would have to stay away from any discussion about whether the "something greater" should be Yahweh, Gaia, nature, or the universe. Religious doctrines could be mentioned, but only in the abstract. Is such a nonpartisan discussion possible?

Christians - even though claiming to have discovered the source of absolute truth - are still tolerant of other opinions and behaviours. It is the biggest lie that true Christianity is intolerant of atheists and homosexuals and even of abortionists.

You may ask why. Well, the answer is simple. Christians are tolerant with others because God was tolerant with them! Both in their deviant beliefs and practices. Every Christian was once an enemy of God and espoused similar beliefs and practices to every current non-Christian. When I encounter someone with different beliefs and practices to mine, what comes naturally to me as a selfish human being is to be 'intolerant'. What makes the difference, however, - the thing that leads the Christian to deny himself and show tolerance - is that Christians do no see tolerance as an end in itself! For God, his tolerance shown to us was a stepping stone to the real aim - reconciliation. In the same way, true Christians show love and tolerance to all because their aim is reconciliation. Reconciliation with God, with each other and with ourselves.

Tolerance as an end in itself (which is the general idea behind "inter-faith discussion") rejects both the possibility of reaching the truth and the possibility of achieving any kind of reconciliation.

Scott C, excellent reply. I frequent the discussion here because I hope that others will understand where I'm coming from. At the same time, I am struggling to understand the source of the evangelistic impulse in so many religions. Why anyone cares about my religious beliefs is a mystery to me.

I don't understand why religions have "to make truth claims that are universally sweeping in their target audience." To me, that seems to be less about spirituality and more about authority. Why should religion have anything to do with authority? Isn't religion about finding a meaning and purpose for life, about answering the question "Why are we here?" Aren't we all on our own individual journeys to find that meaning and purpose? If that is the case, shouldn't the debate in forums like this focus on the journey itself and not on what the "right" destination might be? If one person finds his or her answers in Christianity and another finds those in, say, Hinduism, why should one be concerned with the other's answers?

Let's remember the purpose of this article. Dr. Mohler has argued that it is possible for those who hold opposing absolute truth claims to have an intelligent, meaningful conversation without having to forfeit the tenants of their respective faiths if each person presents him/herself honestly. I believe he has aptly demonstrated this, seeing as how my comment is around the 90th in this discussion. He then lays out his own cards - not in an effort to persuade or provide evidence for his beliefs - simply as a matter of intellectual honesty. I'm sure that if any who are criticizing Dr. Mohler's beliefs were to ask him why he believes as he does, he would be more than happy to explain.

As a side note, I am dismayed at the use of the word "tolerance" here in this conversation and as it has now become to be used in faith conversations. Somewhere along the line "tolerance" stopped meaning "the capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others" and started meaning "respecting anyone as long as they do not claim to know absolute truth revealed by God." Intolerance isn't believing in absolute truth, intolerance is automatically dismissing anyone who does.

Tonio,

You said:

"To me, all evangelism feels like a threat to my mental independence, even when that isn't the evangelist's intention. You don't have to agree with my emotion, but please acknowledge that I have a right to feel that emotion. I have a right to feel threatened when someone deems my religious beliefs as unacceptable to them. I hate it when someone has a religious belief about me, not me personally but me as a not a member of the person's religion."

This seems a rather strange statement for a person to make who has posted comments on a Web discussion on religious faith. Did you not expect people to make truth claims that are universally sweeping in their target audience? If this threatens you so much, I wonder why you would even frequent the discussion?

On to other matters. Truth is objective by the very nature of the case. If you reject the objective nature of truth claims then your world has no meaning at all. A simple case in point: 2+2=4 and always is true. At no time and in no situation can 2+2=5 unless you enjoy fantasy. Religions make truth claims. They are either true or false. If they are true there is nothing you can do about, because truth by the nature of the case is not determined by personal opinion. You may not like the fact that when you run in front of a Mack truck at 65mph that it is going to kill you. But the truth remains the same.

I happen to believe that the claims of Biblical Christianity (and I will stand in line to refute abberant forms of Christianity of which there are many) are objectively true and therefore unassailable. Christianity alone makes full and thorough sense of our world, its conditions, and in particular the conditions and problems that human beings face personally and corporately. All other sytems of thought whether they be religious or philosophical in nature, to the degree that they contradict the truth claims of Christianity, are false. As I indicated before, truth is not relative, but objective. Therefore competing truth claims that seek to explain the same phenomena of life and existence cannot all be true. And by the nature of the case, something must be true that explains the course of reality or one must consign himself to despair or ignore the questions and indulge apathy. Some ideas have bits of truth, but I believe Christianity makes full sense of all the important and relevant phenomena.

Now a person may have a problem accepting the truth claims of Christianity, but it is irrational to disallow it to make its voice known. This is what happens in Muslims countries. If it is false, demonstrate that it is so. But in order for a person to do that he must grasp what it actually says about the relevant and important phenomena. Nobody has sought to do that in these posts. There is a lot of blustering and that is about it. My comments are not intended to answer the questions, rather to indicate that it is not fruitless to engage the questions.

Sok7:

"Even if a supposed Christian told a non-believer that he was going to Hell, why get so mad if you don't believe in Hell?"

Simple - because the message is that the non-believer is evil and worthless and deserving of death. That would piss off anyone, regardless of the belief system. Whether or not Hell exists is irrelevant. It's that fact that the believer believes in Hell and is using his or her belief system to question other people's right to exist.

Anonymous:

"If the God of the Bible exists, He is the authority over all mankind whether people wish to accept it or not. The Christian simply accepts the authority God has over his life. BTW, that authority is good, wise and powerful."

Many, many entires here treat the existence of the God of the Bible as an objective fact. As I see it, no religion's cosmology or dogma constitutes objective fact, partly because each person has a unique experience of the divine. (I believe in a God, but in the universalist or pantheist sense, and I don't expect anyone else to have that belief.) When it comes to the truth of the Bible, I have only the word of Christians. And please don't take this personally, but there's no reason I should take their word for it. There's no reason I should accept any religion's claims to absolute truth. I'm not saying organized religions are bad. I'm saying that people are entitled to find the answers on their own if they wish.

Imagine that you grew up on a desert island and knew nothing about the world's religions. Then you arrived in civilization, and representatives from all the world's religions came to you and bombarded you with their messages. They pestered you, cajoled you, harassed you about joining their religions. Why should you believe any of their claims about truth?

SMP:

"Mr./Mrs. Anonymous, you yourself are speaking for God when you make the claim that on one speaks for God. Your claim means that God cannot or does not use prophets to speak for him. How do you know this?"

That was me, and I apologize for not signing my name. I make no claims about God, even though it may have sounded that way. Instead, I approach it from an agnostic viewpoint. Whatever God wants, no human is capable of knowing it. I don't know if God uses prophets. I simply don't believe people when they claim to be prophets. Such claims come either from arrogance or from a lust for power over one's fellow humans. Or to put it another way, I don't know what God wants, and no one else does, either.

Owen:

Yes, it sounds like I am shrieking at people. I just feel incredibly resentful at being told that I have no value as a human because I don't follow the "right" religion. I am still angry at the nameless flunky at Saddam Hussein's state-run newspaper who, on the first anniversary of 9/11, plastered a photo of the burning WTC with the headline "God's Punishment."

It may sound like I am preaching against people. Please understand that is not my intention. My intention is just to vent about how evangelism affects me personally. It is not my intention to ask anyone to give up the core tenets of his or her religion. I do not see myself as against religion, and I'm not trying to stump for any particular religion or the lack of it. (I didn't know that my own beliefs were similar to Buddhism until one of my friends pointed out the similarity.)

My point is that I take all evangelism personally, no matter what religion the evangelism as pushing. To me, all evangelism feels like a threat to my mental independence, even when that isn't the evangelist's intention. You don't have to agree with my emotion, but please acknowledge that I have a right to feel that emotion. I have a right to feel threatened when someone deems my religious beliefs as unacceptable to them. I hate it when someone has a religious belief about me, not me personally but me as a not a member of the person's religion.

For Ted Swart, part two:

Ted, regarding why God would send people to hell (this should have been part of the first post, but I am getting tired and inattentive).

I'll be the first to say that I don't like the idea of people going to hell. Why, as you ask, would God do this? For believing the wrong thing? No, for disobeying His law. If God is just, He must reward good and punish evil. We wouldn't want an unjust God--the implications are just too horrendous to contemplate.

So if God punishes evil (breaking his law), what sort of punishment should it be? The punishment should fit the crime; so breaking an unimportant law (like parking at an expired meter) should get a small punishment, while breaking a more important law (like murder) should get a larger punishment.

So what sort of laws does God have? Unimportant ones, important ones, or both? Considering who he is, his laws have to be of vital importance. I'm not interested in a God who tells me trivial or unimportant things. In fact, since He is the God who is infinite, eternal, almighty, His laws are of crucial importance. All of them.

And so the punishment is infinite and eternal.

This is a depressing prospect if that is all there is to it.

But that's precisely the good news of Jesus Christ--that He came and took our punishment for us, so that we don't have to take it. That's how we can be sure of going to heaven when we die--there is nothing more on our record, because Jesus took it all.

And THAT is why we talk to everyone about Him, send missionaries all over the world, and so on. We'd like them to escape hell and spend eternity in heaven with us as well.

What do you think? See any flaws in the logic?

Tom

For Ted Swart:

Ted, thanks for the kind words about my post. I called it quits with 1/2 a bachelor's degree in math, so I'm sure your mathematical abiliteis are far beyond mine.

But let me give you an example of the fulfilled prophecies about Jesus. Where would the Messiah be born? At the time of the prophet Micah, about 700 BC, there were already lots of cities on earth, and the Messiah could have been born in any one of them. In the middle of his prophecy, Micah pulls Bethlehem out of the blue, even though it was a pretty small city then as now...a large city such as Memphis or Nineveh or Babylon would have been a lot more likely. But he pulls out little Bethlehem, 700 or so years before the fact.

And Jesus was in fact born in Bethlehem. His contemporary Matthew records it, and a little later on Luke (who says he researched his history diligently) confirms it. So Micah got it right, against pretty hefty odds, 700 years in advance.

What do you think?

Pilgram -
Excellent post on Edward Moore. I read his post 3 times and couldn't decipher what if anything he believes. I suspect if I pushed hard on his beliefs in any area, he would waffle.

This reminds me of James 1:5-8 (NIV)

James 1:5
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.

Food for thought..

Unfortunately people will always be turned off by the truth. Jesus said that narrow is the road and few will find it! Yet, the world wants to recognize Jesus as this great teacher..And yet he said radical things like.."No one can come to God but through me..."

But he is a good teacher? No. Either we have the truth or we have a lie...Jesus is the messiah or he isn't! This isn't fundamentalism...it is truth vs. lie...talk about it together, absolutely...surrender our ground never. Thanks Dr. Mohler for not surrendering!

Meacham and Quinn: "Oh the filthiness of their fornicaton, having in their hand a cup full of abominations."

Babylon is Fallen, and the Billy Graham's Great Harlot (that Lying False Church) is Drunk!!!!!!

Bye

For Tom:

What a pleasnat post Tom. For my part I started out as and Anglican (Episcopalean) -- by birth as it were -- bacame a Quaker -- by choice -- and have ended up an agnostic -- or, what I call, a weak agnostic. By weak agnostic I mean I don't claim to have all the answers but am open to the notion -- in fact warm to the notion -- that there is some kind of spirituality at loose in the world.

I have a D.Sc in physical chemistry and -- half way through my career -- I did a Ph.D in the interface between math and comp sci (four colour problem). Now retired but still doing math research.

I am afraid you loose me when you speak of fulfilled prophecies. The universe is indeed a huge mystery but the claims made regarding Jesus hardly hold up under close inspection. We don't have a very good handle on the historical truths with respect to Jesus but he is reported as having said "Why call you me good. There is none good but God". and he really did have some morally indefensble notions about the existence of hell and interminable punishment. Punishment for what? Picking the wrong beliefs? What kind of spirituality is that?

So, please go back to agnosticism. It's much more defensible.

Edward Moore’s post demonstrates exactly what I referred to in my earlier post. The fuzziness will come from the moderates on both sides in this debate; those who have only a partial and inconsistent understanding of that which they profess to believe. Even those who are “professionals” in their profession.

As an Orthodox Christian and professional theologian, philosopher, and educator, I believe -- as does my religious tradition -- that the Bible is the historical record of humanity's -- or certain groups of human beings' -- interaction with, and quest to understand, the Deity. When we say that the Bible is the "word of God," we do not mean that God Himself wrote it as I am writing this post, only using human beings, rather than a keyboard, as His instrument(s) of composition. Orthodox Christians do not believe the Bible to be infallbile, for three main reasons: God created all human beings with free will; inspired human beings are the authors of the Bible; even under the guidance of inspiration, free beings can make errors. Therefore, it follows that while the Bible is an inspired and human document, it is nevertheless, like those godly men and women who wrote it, imperfect. This is why the Orthodox Church views the Bible as one part -- albeit a very important one -- of an ongoing revelation of God to humanity that began long before the Incarnation of Christ, and will continue until the end of the ages, when all is recapitulated in and by our Creator.

The decisive importance of the Incarnation is not as a final revelation, the meaning of which, if only properly understood, will put an end to all debate and division regarding Truth. Rather, it is the historical manifestation of our humanity as originally intended by God: as His image and likeness, of which Christ is, for our faith, the perfect archetype and exemplar.

When Mr Mohler writes that "Our knowledge of God and all things He has revealed are no tribute to our intelligence, but rather to God's love for us," he is, I feel, forgetting that God's love is precisely the reason for our freedom, and hence, our shared imperfection. God created every single one of us in His image, and with a likeness that must be attained and perfected in the course of our historical existence. The likeness, then, is not a 'given', but the image certainly is. This is why the death penalty, for example, is contrary to Orthodox teachings -- no one, not even the most heinously evil human being -- can ever lose the image of the God in whom s/he was created.

God's love for us is expressed most clearly in this fact; not in a supposed revelation of Himself that is essentially, when understood in the evangelical manner, a divine being saying "hey, look how great I am! Now place all your faith in my book, and all will be well with you." The task of our existence is to recognize the *image* of God within us, and to use it as a firm foundation upon which to perfect that inherent *likeness* to God that is the birthright of us all.

What if there really is a god?

What if he/she expects us to search and find him/her and learn to worship as he/she wants (not as we want)?

What if we are just bit players in this gods universe and plan, and what we want is of absolutely no importance to god? This includes all the opinions of christian, muslim and jewish religious leaders as well as leaders in all fields. After all this planet is nothing more than the hair on a fleas leg in the walmart parking lot in Nowhere, Arizona.

What if he/she is going to hold us accountable for our beliefs, decisions and actions, regardless of our religion or beliefs? There are no free bases.

What kind of attitude would we have to others beliefs we may not understand yet?

Would we trust others to tell us what to believe or would we actually study and make our own decision based on knowledge and understanding?

What if this god, had expectations of us, beyond just living life?

What if we believed we found this god, but discovered that our religion was not fulfilling this god's requirements? Would we investigate others and change religion if we found one that did meet god's requirements?

Not that it matters, but from my perspective, I see most people as living life by rote. They found a way to get by in their life, and are content with it and are afraid to change. It doesn't matter to them what god thinks, what matters is what their preist, shaman, buddha, nobel prize winner, celebrity, next door neighbor, mother, friend or boss thinks. They have more faith in others than god.

And that's too bad.

P.S. Dr. Mohler, thank you for all you do for the SBC and the church as a whole. You truly are a gift from God to Christians around the globe. Don't stop until the Lord calls you home.

Matt

In response to SK's comment, "If you were God, would you send the same messenger-ambassador-to vastly differing and ancient cultures? Of course not! You would send ambassadors that could connect with the world view and traditions already established," I will simply say this. The problem with religious pluralism is that it attempts to make God into man's image, instead of making man in God's image. By saying that God conforms His message to human cultures, aren't you saying He conforms Himself to these cultures? Here the power rests not in an omnipotent, holy God, but in mortal men. The message is of a searching, desperate God seeking for followers instead of the one infinitely holy and unchanging God seeking to show Himself to the world. Religious pluralism is a philosophical impossibility mainly because none of the religions of the world agree. And yet most responders on this site have tried to say we should all be tolerant and understanding and accepting of every religion. To the Muslim I ask, are you really ready to be tolerant to the Jew, who esteems Isaac and not Ishmael? To the Jew I ask, are you really ready to accept that Christians will enter into heaven, even though they (so you claim) believe in a false Messiah? To the Buddhist I ask, are you ready to say that most other religions of the world are valid in trying to attain salvation through some act or relationship to God, while you purport atheism? And to the Hindu, you who claim tolerance most of all, are you ready to accept the Muslim or Jew or Christian who says you must be a part of their religion in order to attain salvation? To be truthful, as an evangelical Christian I will not say that there are other ways to heaven aside from faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Does this make me a terrible person? No. In fact, I believe it makes me even more loving to tell the world about Christ because I know He is the only way, and to say or proclaim anything else would be unloving due to the fact that I would be withholding my most precious treasure from my friends and peers.
This proclomation of no salvation outside of Christ does not make me narrow-minded or terrible or mean-spirited. At the very least, if you do not believe it makes me loving, it makes me honest. And the point of this conversation, if anything, is honesty. Let's be honest about what we believe. Tolerance and religious pluralism is NOT the answer. It cannot be the answer. It is a philosophical impossibility that it is the answer. So please, stop getting angry or being rude when someone expresses their honest convictions. If you want to disagree, fine. After all, that's what this site is all about. But do so in a respectful manner. Even if there cannot be religious pluralism, there can be love and respect and honesty, all mixed together in what could be a very interesting and informing discussion.

"Mr Mohler, as an evangelical Christian, you believe in a set of ideas, facts and "truths" for which there is absolutely no evidence what so ever.
This alone, disqualifies you from taking part in any rational discussion on any matter.
Your irrational faith is completely delusional a priori, and what's more – your delusion, combined with delusions of millions of people like you, is hurting our species. Please stop."

This seems to be the broadest opinion voiced here, summed nicely. So it seems that any conversation about faith cannot be useful unless you have no faith. What a heady, haughty and high minded bunch o' buffoons.

William:

Regretfully, you do not understand that when Dr. Mohler admits that he is not the repository of absolute Truth, he is not contradicting himself to state that the Bible is. He is simply and humbly admitting that his epistomological foundation lies outside of himself. He derives his understanding of the world from that foundation and is admitting and proclaiming his loyalty to that foundation which can and does speak for itself.

The real problem is twofold: Either a person will humbly search out and submit to the authority of the Word of God over them, or they will personally remain their own authority. Either the Bible has jurisdiction over them or it does not. The subsequent issue therefore asks "what does the Word of God actually say?" And to this we would echo what Jesus Christ (the author of our epistemological foundation) Himself stated to the religious leaders of His day: "It is these (the biblical text) that testify about Me."
Either Jesus is right or He is wrong. If He is write, He is write absolutely. If He is wrong, He is wrong absolutely. But we hold that He is not confused.

Conversation is open as long as we can bring to the discussion support from our authoritative foundation. And personally, I believe it is more arrogant to say that I am the source of absolute truth than to say that the Bible is the source of absolute Truth which I am just trying to be consistent with. And I'm not dopping my intellect at the door either. Rather, we search out everything to find wherein the Bible speaks - and it is sufficient for all of life and godliness.

I find this a perfect example of the two flaws common to evangelical views. It is self contradictory and lacks integrity. Mr. Mohler is asserting that he does not have a monopoly on truth (that originates with himself) but he does have a monopoly on truth (that originates with God). He has and does not have a monopoly on truth at the same time. There is no arguing with someone who asserts something and its contradiction at the same time, no matter how cleverly it is concealed.

However, Mr Mohler could hold a reasonable position if he asserted that he does not hold a monopoly on truth, but he has a belief (that may well be wrong) that the bible is true. But that would mean giving up the right to force that truth on other people. Specifically, a reasonable evangelical might hold that he was personally pro-life but publicly pro choice because he believed in the bible but he did not have a monopoly on truth. However, that is not the position that Mr. Mohler means to take with phrases like "unique, definitive, particular, and universal".

The defense of this contradiction merely undermines the integrity of the evangelical position and I think discussion is simply impossible. The real position is: Evangelicals have a monopoly on truth because they believe that the bible (as they interpret it) is the absolute, God's truth. This is logically equivalent to: Whatever they believe is THE TRUTH. Any other assertion is a dishonest smoke screen.

the last paragraph, second line should say:
"While you may entirely disagree with what we say ..."

Interesting discussion ...

As for "proofs" for God's exisence, the one I find most convincing is the transcendental argument. Meaning that, as I understand it, without God, it is useless to even have a standard for debate. The very notion of debating requires something outside of our "physical universe" that transcends it, that can be appealed to.

As for why Christians hold so closely to the Bible as the revealed Word of God, or at least why I do (and I was not raised in a Christian home) is that no one has been able to adequately explain away the resurrection. The resurrection is proof that Jesus is who he says he is. And he claimed exclusiveness: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me." He also promised the Holy Spirit to remind and teach the disciples all things. Some of the letters and accounts have been preserved in history by the same Spirit. They contain everything that is necessary for faith and belief, and everything that God wants us to know - but not everything there is to know. Because Jesus resurrection proves He is who He said He is, because the Holy Spirit taught and preserved all that is necessary for us to know, the Bible is more than trustworthy - though it is hard to understand at times. Admittedly, this sounds like circular reasoning, and to some point it is. I like to think of it as a circle of reasoning that makes sense, but only if one is willing to enter it at a point of faith. And I believe the point of the faith is concentrated around the resurrection. And there is enough historical evidence to show that believing in such is not a blind leap of faith, but an educated one. But, it does take faith - which comes from God. Do I expect non-Christians to accept this? No, I don't. When I wasn't a Christian, I didn't accept it either. But "something" made me pursue this - the question of was Jesus really who He said he was. The failings of His followers (then and now) had very little to do with whether his truth claims were really, in fact, true. Thus, since I believe the Bible to be God's Word, I filter my thinking through it - or at least try to.
The Bible is not filled with contradictions and errors, and it is not simplistic. People have spent lifetimes studying one book and only scratched its surface. It has things that are hard to understand, and things that are easy to. For the most part, the absolute essentials are fairly straightforward. But, there is no single aspect of life upon which the Bible has nothing to say. Unfortunately for those who do not trust Christ cannot believe it, for "these things are spiritually discerned." Thus, Christians enter an impossible task armed only with the knowledge that Truth will win in the end, and that the Holy Spirit works in many ways and in many lives. And, the principles and precepts in the Bible - rightly understood - show us the best way to live. And this IS true, even for non-Christians ...

As for debating issues, Christians are citizens, too and have a right to enter into the debate. While you may entirely with what we say, it is not valid to dismiss us oon the basis that you don't like our "defining principle." At the same time, I think Dr. Mohler has it right in the way he generally debates. To defend what the Bible teaches as true, not just because the Bible says so, but because it is what is best for the human community in general. Therefore, Christians who believe God has spoken on the issues can enter into debates and think through the issues, even if "Bible verses" are never part of the discussion. Truth always is, though ...

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.
It is the traveler's map, the pilgrim's staff, the pilot's compass, the soldier's sword, and the Christian's charter. Here Paradise is restored, Heaven opened, and the gates of hell disclosed. Christ is its grand subject, our good the design, and the glory of God its end.

It should fill the memory, rule the heart, and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently, and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure. It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, will reward the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents. [Found inside a Gideon's New Testament]

You can have fruitful debate between people who disagree. I've done it on a number of occasions. It's just a matter of not being a jerk about it when you disagree.

Everyone has a truth standard. Most people use their own mind as the truth standard. Of course, since they are finite, it isn't much of a standard.

Since God is infinite, the Bible is the only absolute standard.

There's no point in discussing truth with someone with a different truth standard, since you can never arrive at the truth. You have to have the same truth standard to have any worthwhile conversations.

"Is conversation possible only among those who deny a divine revelation? If so, only liberals can join the conversation."
-Dr. Mohler

After reading a fair sampling of 155 comments, I'd wager the liberals would rather have the conversation themselves. When intellectuals such as Dr. Mohler speak out, suddenly the game's not fun anymore. Someone's stepping on toes. Making outrageous claims . . . to truth!

Fiddlesticks.

If you would rather have this "conversation" in coffeehouses with fellow atheists/liberals/agnostics/whatever, then you aren't interested in a conversation at all. You're interested in self-assuring pep talks that amount to nothing more than pseudo-intellectual platitudes. What goes in surely comes out.

Most of you have glossed over Dr. Mohler's simple plea for "showing our cards" as someone said previously.

But you don't like the cards he's showing you, so you don't want to play anymore. Listen if you want to learn, if you want to have a conversation, then you have to pay attention to and "respect each other's deepest beliefs as being honestly held and honestly presented."

This goes for everyone. Christians, get busy reading Harris, Dawkins, or whomever. The rest of you read some sound theology (D.A. Carson, Wayne Grudem) and apologetics so you aren't cherry-picking 'ridiculous' passages from Leviticus to your kids (inadvertantly teaching them how to not to use their brains).

It's no use reading it if you're not going to engage it.

But hey if you'd rather have the conversation amongst yourselves, I'm sure your peppermint mocha agrees with everything you say.

I suppose it's inevitable that the questions from the "On Faith" moderators are going to be somewhat ambiguous. Consider the concept that some people believe they have a "monopoly on truth." What, exactly, does that mean? Does it mean that they actually believe their beliefs are actually true? Well, most people I know do actually believe their beliefs, so I don't think that's what they mean.

Maybe they mean people who believe that what they believe is right and those with opposite beliefs are wrong. Again, most people fall into this camp. If I believe, for example, that there is a God, or that abortion should be legal, or that the Chicago Bears are the greatest football team in history, then it follows that I think whoever disagrees with my beliefs are wrong. And if I believe that God exists as one divine substance and three divine persons, then I obviously thinks Muslims are wrong, and they think I am wrong.

So maybe by people who think they have a "monopoly on truth" they mean those folks who refuse to consider opposing views. Now obviously they are aiming this concept at religious conservatives, and there are certainly many religious conservatives who would fall into this camp. But I know religious liberals, atheists, and flat-earthers who also refuse to consider opposing views.

I say all this to say: so what? So what if there are some religious conservatives who do this? There are a lot of others who don't. But many commenters here on Mohler's post seem to be saying that if one believes the Bible to be true, then it is impossible to engage in dialogue with those who disagree. But why think that? Why is my belief that the Bible is reliable any more problematic for the purposes for discourse than your belief that France is the greatest nation in the world (if indeed you do hold that belief; I hope you don't)?

Put this another way: why should it be the case that, if someone holds a belief that is by and large inviolable (as evangelical belief in Scripture usually is), this is somehow de facto problematic for that individual's ability to engage in discourse. Perhaps that individual has good reasons for holding that belief, or she thinks that the evidence for that belief is high, or at least the level of justification for it is. What makes defense of that belief somehow more difficult than for the freethinker who holds the opposite belief but with the same degree of assent?

But I've gone on too long. My point is that belief in Scripture, or in the truth of your religion, or whatever, does not automatically disqualify the believer from engaging in meaningful discourse. I engage with nonbelievers all the time, and (hopefully) the discourse is edifying for all involved. Why must I hold lightly to my beliefs to be able to have significant discourse with those who disagree with me? The very notion smacks of bias against those who have strong religious convictions.

Brian Trapp
ChristianThinker.net

http://www.christianthinker.net

Scott..Most of the discussion, as you say, have been pretty reasonable. As Tom above you said,though, "atheism" is a negative proof. I respectfully disagree. There is no such thing as a negative proof. I don't proclaim my atheism to be proof of anything at all. However, a belief in a supreme being without proof doesn't make that a positive.

And Scott, with all due respect, there really isn't a need for more substance than comfort and sincerity. My comfort level exists in the acceptance that some questions in life, as in other things, simply have no answers. And not having an answer does not preclude comfort. I don't have a need to explain life by blindly believing in stories that have simply existed for a long time because they were passed on. That, in my opinion, is the foundation for religious belief. And if that makes one happy, that's nice.
I just don't need it. Nor do I feel it necessary for others to accept my disbelief. Unlike many who believe so fervently in their religious beliefs that they feel a need to convince others that their way is the "right" way is not something I have a need to do. If you wish to believe, and it works for you, I'm happy for you.

Ken,
It seems to me that most of the Christians responding in this thread have been reasonable. Those who say Dr. Mohler has stopped the conversation are not terribly irenic IMHO. It seems to me most of those who oppose Dr. Mohler statements don't wish for his brand of Christianity to even enter the conversation.

Secondly, you say you are comfortable in your aetheism. I can say the same about my Christian beliefs. However, comfort, sincerity, even zeal for one's position cannot be a criterion for truth. There are many comfortable and sincere people who are comfortably and sincerely wrong. Saying that doesn't make one wrong, but there must be something much more substantial to evaluate truth claims than comfort and sincerity.

Fascinating column and posts!

I once thought of myself as an atheist but found it untenable. First of all, a philosophy professor at my college (not a Christian college) pointed out that atheism is a negative proof; it requires you to prove that you have considered every possible case and that there is not a God in any one of those possible cases. Rather a high standard. So I went to agnosticism as more intellectually respectable.

Even that failed me, though, as I studied math (my major) and was impressed by the physical precision of so many things in the universe--how really on a razor's edge so much of the universe and our own existence is balanced. The odds against it all happening by chance were too great--a lot greater than just a 95% chance, which is the usual threshold for statistical significance. So from a purely intellectual viewpoint I became (and remain) convinced that there is a God.

But is He the God of the BIble? Here again math comes to my aid. I look at the prophecies in the Old Testament that are fulfilled by Jesus Christ, and I conclude that it is rational to believe that someone saw far ahead and prophesied things that actually happened centuries later. How did the author know these things would happen? Either an awful lot of awfully dumb luck, or inspiration by someone who knew that these things would happen--the God of the Bible.

That's my two cents worth. What do you think?