Business as usual for Vatican Enterprises, Inc.

So what we have here is an attempted corporate takeover? Starting with offers to buy up shares of the competitor? Makes sense because the whole belief/doctrine/liturgy discrepancy thing was really getting in the way of my understanding this.

Rome starts picking up some extra assets by appealing to those shareholders disaffected with board members who want to make nice with gays and women. Smart. No downside! Worse case they have a handful of extra investors. And they send the message they are out to win. But that is only the start of a business plan. What's next?

Personally, I think they should take a lesson from the Muslims who have that whole 70 virgins thing going on. They could offer special rates on success in the afterlife. You know, like for extra donations they get special indulgence when judgment time comes around. Could be a big seller. Wait, wasn't that how this whole split thing happened in the first place?

Never mind.

Still, that whole Coke-Pepsi model sure explains a lot.

As an ex-catholic, I agree with Paula Kirby, that the Catholic Church has a history of being opportunistic and self-oriented rather than doing what is right to strengthen it's spiritual and moral base. I don't want to donate to a church that uses my tithings to defend priests that have broken the law and abused members of the congregation. I don't want to be part of a church that says that only men can partcipate in the priesthood and women are seen as secondary souls somehow unfit souls within a church that also worships the Mother of Christ. I can't respect the authority of a Pope who questions whether the holocaust ever occured? I cannot believe that this is the way that any church that represents the work and word of a God who created both man and woman can function. Good luck to the Anglicans who choose the option of moving toward Roman Catholicism. I think they will find it to be quite restrictive and mindless in its ritual and traditions.

It is refreshing to see a panelist pointing out the elephant in the room.

While I sympathize with the struggles many progressive nuns face, Mother Teresa was no saint. (pun intended) A read of Christopher Hitchens' book, The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice, shows that she is not really someone that most would want to emulate. She does fit in well, however, with the business model that is the Roman Catholic Church.

Ms Kirby,
This is the first time I've seen your post on ON FAITH so let me wish you a hardy Welcome Aboard!

It is high time we had a regular panelist to help Susan Jacoby carry the banner of rationalism and secular thought against the religionist con-artist, just plain cons, and new age hustlers that make the rest of the panel.

The Catholic Church has proven the point you make repeatedly throughout their history. They sided with any political power regardless of the brutality of that ruling faction if it supported their monopoly on religious thought. They frequently excommunicated, tortured and murdered the opposition.

One of the most obvious recent examples of their operation as a hostile corporation is the protection of pedophile priest, then when that was exposed they bankrupted some parishes and moved monies and assets to others not named in lawsuits by the victims to limit damage award payouts. They used the best teams of corporate lawyers and pressure on public officials to protect their assets. The poster on this thread that claims that the RCCs assets are local vs. the Vatican probably has Dupont stock. They poison and kill thousands in third world countries with unsafe chemical manufacturing practices, and the parent company avoids liability.

The Catholic Church has done more to keep third world humans in poverty than the US or the USSR every imagined, and did it without their own armies.

Looks like M & M time for the Catholic Church - Money and Members.

And men who want to be both husbands and fathers and also priests in the Catholic Church can now have their cake and eat it, too - just become an Anglican priest, marry and have a family and then jump to the Catholic side of the aisle.

As for the Pope now "investigating" the nuns in the U.S. - looks similar to the Inquisition. Wonder if the Pope would have investigated Mother Teresa for actually going out to the people who need help!

The Church has found another way of saving money. It's abandoning its old and retired nuns, subjecting them to an inquisition along the way. Maureen Dowd wrote a withering report on this in the New York Times Sunday, October 25.

Here we are nearing the end of the first decade of the 21st Century, and we continue to labor under the burden of a male-dominated, hidebound institution--in this case, a religious institution, in particular, the Catholic Church. This particular one has actually become less liberal and open to change in recent decades, as measured by Vatican II. Watching the Catholic Church, barely emerging from its pedophile scandals, throw its aged nuns under the bus in the name of continuing that male dominance, is chilling to behold. Chilling, not only because of what it tells us about the Church, but what it tells us about the modern day religious mind in general. Because what it tells us is that those minds are more medieval than modern. The absence of charity and compassion here is breathtaking, given that they were supposedly the hallmarks of Jesus' earthly ministry.

But then, whoever said that the Catholic Church had much to do with the teachings of Jesus to begin with?

Paula Kirby, I have issues with Christianity in general, but to single out the Roman Catholic Church... or to say it "is facing a huge drop..." and "its stock has never been lower," is a bit of a stretch.

All denominations are facing drops, but the Catholic Church is doing better than most, according to the recent 2008 Pew Survey (of 35 thousand Americans). It also depends which part of the country you are looking at (i.e., the Northeast, Mid-West, South, Southwest,Far West, etc.)

Reading the study I notice that although 10% of the Protestants interviewed said they were former Roman Catholics, 8% of Catholics said they were former Protestants. So the categorical interchange, as it were, is only 2%.

The same study also says that for all the Catholic switches to Protestant mainline churches, Protestants in general continue to drop in numbers, currently 51% of the US population of 300 million (down 20% from 1970's),while the Catholicism has kept to 23.9% (or current 72 million) since the 70's (owing to immigration and conversions).

The same Pew study notes that although Evangelical Protestantism appears to be growing, its growth is being dwarfed by a decline in mainline Protestantism (including the Episcopal Church). That's a huge drop across the board, but not for Catholicism!

On page 14 of the study it also notes that, despite Catholic losses, the retention rate among Catholics remains one of the "highest among world religions."

Finally, Luis Lugo, the director of the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, recently noted that "We are very close to becoming a minority Protestant country," owing to the drop of Protestantism.

Needless to say, there are drops and losses across the board, but according to this study, Catholicism is not "dropping" or losing "stock" nearly as fast as Protestantism in general. If anything, Catholicism is holding its own.

Posted by: Matthew_DC
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"The metaphor died after paragraph 2. Nice try though. This tired business "model" could be applied to any belief system that has a modicum of organization and supranational presence."
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Agreed. The "business model" metaphor should indeed be applied to all religous institutions!
This business model is alive and well in America and Saudia Arabia.

Perhaps one could say it is "tiring" rather then "tired". There are still many out there who are quite happy to "respect" and "tolerate" and self censor themselves when they hear ludicrous ideas.

Ideas like "ascension into heaven" , "miracles" - suspension of the laws of nature by a omnioptent Creator.
The same creator who omnipotently created the rules in the beginning!
A "virtuous being" who tortures those who do not adore him ?!
An "business entity" that promises "everlasting life" after you are dead!

The illogic of all this is evident to an 8 year old. Why do we continue to pretend?

What are we afraid of?

What indeed are we afraid of?

Please. Less tolerance of stupidity, illusion and manipulation please!

Just because some one wears a pointy hat and robes doesnt give them a right to be taken seriously. Nor the right to manipulate the gullible and psychologically in need.

Pointy hats do not justify our "respect" nor our lack of criticism of unacceptable behaviour and outrageous claims because as we all know - honest, fair minded, rational people need no protection from words.

Therefore against those who ask (even demand) such protection for their ideas - what is the best antidote?

The Episcopal Church is more united than I've ever seen it. Ms. Kirby's thoughts about Anglicanism may apply to the Church of England, but miss the mark here.

Please forgive my multiple posts as I was having browser issues where Firefox did not show my post; hence the redundancy. I contacted Washington Post to have the extras removed. My sincere apologies.

Paula Kirby has made some very astute and accurate observations about the Vatican's decision to open their arms in welcoming the Anglican community into Rome. Her insight is refreshing in a world when so-called Christian leaders have nothing but fawning admiration for the Papacy and refuse to speak the truth about Catholicism.

Ms. Kirby is 100% correct in stating that Rome is a corporation; the same of course true for most churches today. Yet as Ms. Kirby noted, Rome trumps all in her financial girth; something which she is not embarrassed to increase to ever widening proportions as "...excess is never enough: year-on-year growth, soaring share values and increasing profit-margins forever and ever." Amen indeed!

Yet Rome's desires are not merely financial; this is rather the product of her ultimate aspirations to once again regain the temporal power over the nations she lost centuries ago. And so she works tirelessly to build her empire with open arms unto all who will sit in her pews and surrender to the Pope not only their finances, but also their eternal destiny.

Likewise, Rome's desire is for spiritual control over the nations and this is why she is the leading force behind the religious ecumenical movement to gather not only Christians, but also Jews, Muslims and peoples of all faiths under the supremacy of the Pope.

This is in fact why you see the two keys associated with Rome; one for temporal power, the other for spiritual. Both being the end game which Rome is working towards where she will not rest until this is achieved. Today it may seem like a pipe dream to most, but those who have studied Rome and her nefarious history know better.

It is sad indeed when one outside of the Christian camp has more insight into Rome than so many who profess to be Christians. I commend Ms. Kirby for writing her piece and highlighting the "Good News" of Rome. A "Good News" that is more in line with GE or Microsoft rather than what one will find preached by Jesus and the first century church. I encourage people spurned by religion to read and see even if you ultimately reject the message.

Paula Kirby has made some very astute and accurate observations about the Vatican's decision to open their arms in welcoming the Anglican community into Rome. Her insight is refreshing in a world when so-called Christian leaders have nothing but fawning admiration for the Papacy and refuse to speak the truth about Catholicism.

Ms. Kirby is 100% correct in stating that Rome is a corporation; the same of course true for most churches today. Yet as Ms. Kirby noted, Rome trumps all in her financial girth; something which she is not embarrassed to increase to ever widening proportions as "...excess is never enough: year-on-year growth, soaring share values and increasing profit-margins forever and ever." Amen indeed!

Yet Rome's desires are not merely financial; this is rather the product of her ultimate aspirations to once again regain the temporal power over the nations she lost centuries ago. And so she works tirelessly to build her empire with open arms unto all who will sit in her pews and surrender to the Pope not only their finances, but also their eternal destiny.

Likewise, Rome's desire is for spiritual control over the nations and this is why she is the leading force behind the religious ecumenical movement to gather not only Christians, but also Jews, Muslims and peoples of all faiths under the supremacy of the Pope.

This is in fact why you see the two keys associated with Rome; one for temporal power, the other for spiritual. Both being the end game which Rome is working towards where she will not rest until this is achieved. Today it may seem like a pipe dream to most, but those who have studied Rome and her nefarious history know better.

It is sad indeed when one outside of the Christian camp has more insight into Rome than so many who profess to be Christians. I commend Ms. Kirby for writing her piece and highlighting the "Good News" of Rome. A "Good News" that is more in line with GE or Microsoft rather than what one will find preached by Jesus and the first century church. I encourage people spurned by religion to read and see this be true even if you ultimately reject the message.

Paula Kirby has made some very astute and accurate observations about the Vatican's decision to open their arms in welcoming the Anglican community into Rome. Her insight is refreshing in a world when so-called Christian leaders have nothing but fawning admiration for the Papacy and refuse to speak the truth about Catholicism.

Ms. Kirby is 100% correct in stating that Rome is a corporation; the same of course true for most churches today. Yet as Ms. Kirby noted, Rome trumps all in her financial girth; something which she is not embarrassed to increase to ever widening proportions as "...excess is never enough: year-on-year growth, soaring share values and increasing profit-margins forever and ever, amen." Amen indeed!

Yet Rome's desires are not merely financial; this is rather the product of her ultimate aspirations to once again regain the temporal power over the nations she lost centuries ago. And so she works tirelessly to build her empire with open arms unto all who will sit in her pews and surrender to the Pope not only their finances, but also their eternal destiny.

Likewise, Rome's desire is for spiritual control over the nations and this is why she is the leading force behind the religious ecumenical movement to gather not only Christians, but also Jews, Muslims and peoples of all faiths under the supremacy of the Pope.

This is in fact why you see the two keys associated with Rome; one for temporal power, the other for spiritual. Both being the end game which Rome is working towards where she will not rest until this is achieved. Today, it may seem like a pipe dream to most, but those who have studied Rome and her nefarious history know better.

It is sad indeed when one outside of the Christian camp has more insight into Rome than so many who profess to be Christians. I commend Ms. Kirby for writing her piece and highlighting the "Good News" of Rome. A "Good News" that is more in line with GE or Microsoft rather than what one will find preached by Jesus and the first century church as recorded in the New Testament. I encourage people spurned by religion to read and see even if you ultimately reject the message.

The metaphor died after paragraph 2. Nice try though. This tired business "model" could be applied to any belief system that has a modicum of organization and supranational presence.

The reality is that most of the wealth within Catholicism is held and controlled at the local/diocesan level. So to put it in your business scheme, it's an independent franchise system, not a global multinational and the franchise fee is voluntary, not imposed. If memory serves there is one contribution per year taken up to send to Rome. For the most part it also makes due with its local revenues in the diocese of Rome.

If you don't like religion which involves any collective organization, fine, but it's a stretch to compare organization to the for-profit business set up so beloved of Americans.

Excellent, thought provoking article, by the way.

I've often mused on the similarity of the Roman Catholic Church to the US health insurance industry. Of course, the comparison is invidious and grossly unfair, despite the superficial similarity of purpose in "facilitating" aspects of our well-being. The health insurance industry, may shirk some of its responsibilities, be morally vacuous, and be obsessed with shareholder value, but at least it manages to facilitate real health care. At least it has accounts that provide a degree of transparency for all the public's premiums. At least it will improve its game through the democratically driven political processes of market revision to come.

We may well dispute the placebo-only benefits offered by the Roman Catholic Church by comparison, but after that it all goes further downhill very rapidly. As Paula Kirby rightly details we see the attributes of a voracious corporation, mega-wealthy, global in reach, often political in ambition I suggest, and with an overwhelming belief in its own particular importance sufficient to justify its continued scrupulous privacy.

The highly scrutinised health care insurance industry will get better over the years. The Roman Catholic Church, however, will undoubtedly need to be shamed over every last scrap of its error if, that is, its errors can be found out.

Wonderful article , Ms Kirby

Thank goodness there are people out there who have the courage to speak out against the charade of the catholic church and other religous institutions in America.

Religion is the only business activity involved in selling mind control and suspension of rational thought.

Yet it is the only one to get a free pass from criticism. We are asked to "respect" ideas that are ludicrous. We are asked to be deferential and tolerate institutions that should have been dismantled for their behaviour had they been in any other business.

Its nice to see that national publications like the Washington Post are promoting straight talk rather then practicing self censorship.

If America is to be a reference to countries around the world - let it lead on Rational Thought and Free Speech- as its founding fathers did over 200 years ago.

Its high time to discuss the unregulated market of religion in the USA.

I agree with Ms Kirby; this is hard-hitting but to the point.

Shame on those Anglicans who are turning a blind eye to the scandals and illogicalities of the Roman Catholics in order to feather their own nests.
How are their consciences faring over the AIDs crisis in Africa and the outrageous lies of the Catholics over the protective value of condoms? People are dying in their thousands, if not millions over this matter.
How can their 'hurt' over the sensible iberalisation of the Anglican church trump the desperate needs of those who are victims of inhuman Catholic dogmas?
Lining up next to the biggest bully in the playground does not show either morality or strength of character.

The Vatican as a business??

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

I do believe you have a point Ms Kirby.