Justice is Color-Blind

CCNL,
I was going to ignore you, but you seem to be a harmless old man and I mean that in a good way, I will bite; unlike abhab who seems to be full of hate and anger, ready to shoot every Muslim he meets if given a chance.

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" ….

1. Belief in Allah"

I believe in God, transcendent and creator of universe.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence." Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

There is no universe recycling. Physics does not support your claim of cyclic universe. Big rip is the most probable of all models and it’s been 13.7 bys in the making. Check it out. What we know and can prove from evolution is true. You have no argument from me.

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

I believe solely in spiritual angels, the other parallel universe. For me it’s a contingent belief and not a material one. However I don’t believe in ghosts, demons, and other “wingy thingies.” Abhab here believes in ghosts and demons. He thinks if one understands how ghosts and other supernatural things manifest themselves then you can really prove God’s existence. Wow.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

All books are relevant to their own time and that includes the books found in the bible. They should be treated with respect. The Quran confirms previous scriptures not annul them. To each their way of honoring the divine.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone." Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Prophets are only warners. The serve as agents of guidance for us lost human beings. Fasting for thirty days in a cave? Really?. Where in the world did you get that? Facts only old man. What violence? Most of the violence you harp about has its origin in politics and not in inter-religious strife.

"Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!"

Well, how about you? You say you are crossanized catholic. What in the world does that mean? Seriously, what do you believe, if you don’t mind me asking? What are your religious convictions if you have any?

Take care, be ready, and see you in the kingdom of Crossan. Bye old man.

You: “Hogwash! If you use reason and critical thinking you would not be a believer in the prophet hood of some with the characteristics of that whom you consider as the model of a human being. You would not be praying to a rock in the desert, rotating around it and kissing it.”

Yes, I used my reason and came to the conclusion that the Quran is the closest thing we ever have to really understanding the divine and the human condition; at least from my perspective. I am new to Islam and Imam Taylor probably has been a Muslim longer than I. To tell you the truth, I never really cared much for religion until recently. I guess you can call it a renewal and spiritual awakening.

Now about your snide remark about the Ka’bah: the pilgrimage is one occasion when Muslims from all around the world come together to share collectively in one of the most beautiful spiritual experiences there is. Its rights are symbolic and celebrate various acts of the patriarch Abraham, Hajar, and Ishmael that signify their complete dedication and faith in the One God. The building was after all consecrated by Abraham and Ishmael.

The Pilgrims circumambulate the Ka'bah which is the cube shaped building in Mecca. Kissing stones and paying homage to the black stone is of course adulterous. Some people just don’t know. The origin of the Black stone itself in the Ka’bah is unknown. As far as I am concerned they should take it out and get rid of it.

You: “You would not believe the Quran to be revealed by the Creator; a book full of contradictions and riddled with logical absurdities, geographical errors, mathematical mistakes and scientific heresies.”

I thought for a second you were talking about the bible; because that’s exactly what it is and that’s a fact no one can deny. The bible is riddled with contradictions internal and external, geographical errors, mathematical errors, Scientific nonsense and of course logical absurdities. And I’ll be glad to enumerate them for you. On a second thought just check the internet. You’ll be amazed at what you’ll find. The most illogical of them all is the paradox of the three god committee that you worship. You call it a mystery as if to give it a name and put it in a box and hope that everyone will forget about it. It is still a paradox, illogical, and nonsensical.

Part 2:
You: “A book that is a collection of self serving to its author who could not be but a desert warlord, and a conglomerate of myths collected from the Persians, Greeks, Arabian tribes and embellished stories adapted from the Old Testament and the New Testaments.”

That’s a lot of work accomplished in just twenty three years by an unlettered simple man who had not a day of schooling. It is right what God said in the Qur’an concerning man: "And certainly We have explained in this Qur'an every kind of example; and man is most of all given to contention.” Everyone is welcome to read the Qur’an and examine it for themselves for the challenge is there: "Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than God they would have found therein much discrepancy."

And finally, I’ll leave you with these words written down by man who, unlike you, knows what he is talking about: “[Muhammad’s] forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unity of God and the immateriality of God.” How true that is.

Ukba,

We are offering you a no-cost way of ridding yourself of the Three B Syndrome i.e. being Bred, Born and Brainwashed in Islam:

To wit:

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

Ukba:
“At least, unlike you, I use my reasoning
and critical thinking.”
Moi:
Hogwash! If you use reason and critical thinking you would not be a believer in the prophet hood of some with the characteristics of that whom you consider as the model of a human being. You would not be praying to a rock in the desert, rotating around it and kissing it.
You would not believe the Quran to be revealed by the Creator; a book full of contradictions and riddled with logical absurdities, geographical errors, mathematical mistakes and scientific heresies. A book that is a collection of self serving to its author who could not be but a desert warlord, and a conglomerate of myths collected from the Persians, Greeks, Arabian tribes and embellished stories adapted from the Old Testament and the New Testaments.

“I just have distaste for apocalyptic theology which your three god religion is full of."

Moi:
This is the thrust of your message, which is the major message of Islam; a supremacist and racist ideology that denigrates and tries to destroy all other belief systems. I do not blame you for this much ignorance since you could not know more about Christian or any other theology than your alleged prophet, and he knew next to nothing. How could he when he was illiterate, according to you.
My main theme is that the principal of abrogation in your theology is going to sound the death knell to your cult. Inshallah soon, and God bless Bourquiba.

Abhab,
Imam Bukhari traveled the Muslim empire collecting traditional sayings of the Prophet Muhammad. He finished his work in the year 846; that’s more than two hundred years after the Prophet’s death. It is narrated that he collected over 300,000 ahadith form the oral traditions circulating around that time. Out of this large number he judged 7275 of these to be authentic and disregarded the rest as being not reliable and forgeries. He of course had his own method which is subjective in nature of determining which is authentic and which is not. There is nothing wrong with challenging the supposed authentic list he made. He himself had thrown away over 293,000 of them.

End of time literature is conjecture in nature without any real certainty. As far as I know Muhammad did know the future only God does. To make the matter clear, God in the Qur’an says:

Say (O Muhammad), "I am not different from other messengers. I have no idea what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is revealed to me. I am no more than a profound warner." (46:9)

And also somewhere else:

Say (O Muhammad), "I have no power to benefit myself, or harm myself. Only what God wills happen to me. If I knew the future, I would have increased my wealth, and no harm would have afflicted me. I am no more than a warner, and a bearer of good news for those who believe." (7:188)

And to make it clear God says:

Say (O Muhammad), "I do not say to you that I possess the treasures of GOD. Nor do I know the future. Nor do I say to you that I am an angel. I simply follow what is revealed to me." (6:50)

It is obvious that whoever said that Muhammad knew the far future is mistaken. The hadith which predicts Jesus’ return has probably a Christian-Muslim origin grounded in Christian messianic theology. It is not the end of the world not to accept every hadith Bukhari collected and judged as authentic.

At least, unlike you, I use my reasoning and critical thinking in matters of faith. You seem to be ignorant even of the most basic tenants of your three god religion. There are a lot of people like you who follow others like sheep without a clear understanding of their faith. You had an understanding of God’s nature that netted you seven gods. You can’t even answer a basic question stated in the post of: July 19, 2009 7:06 PM. You are not even capable of understanding the difference between a judge and a witness. One thing though you’re good at is course language. But somehow you have no problem telling me what I must believe as a Muslim. I just have distaste for apocalyptic theology which your three god religion is full of.

Part 2
Jesus is supposed to have predicted a soon to be cosmic catastrophe and an apocalyptic end and the coming of the Son of Man with his angels:

Truly I tell you, there are some SANDING HERE who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power. (Mark 9)

The kingdom of God is defined as the overthrow of earthly rulers to make room for God’s agents to rule the world. This of course has happened even two thousand years later. In another place in Mark Jesus said:

But in those days, after that suffering, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see “the Son of Man coming in clouds” with great power and glory. Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. … Truly I tell you, THIS GENERATION will not pass away until all these things have taken place. … Beware, keep alert; for you do not know when the time will come. (Mark 13)

Nothing happened so far. So what’s wrong with this prophecy? Someone was definitely wrong.

Paul also told his people to be ready and “wait expectantly for our Lord Jesus Christ to reveal himself.”

He also told them Jesus would return in their lifetime: “we shall not all die, but we shall all be changed in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet-call. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will rise immortal, and we shall be changed.”

And somewhere else he said: “For this we tell you as the Lord’s word: we who are left alive until the Lord comes shall not forestall those who have died; because at the word of command, at the sound of the archangel’s voice and God’s trumpet-call, the Lord himself will descend from heaven; first the Christian dead will rise, then we who are alive shall join them, caught up in clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”

“Paul promoted a lifestyle reflecting his beliefs about the world’s approaching end. Like Jesus, he saw little need to care about worldly matters.”

He proclaimed: “What I mean, my friends, is this. The time we live in will not last long. While it lasts, married men should be as if they had no wives; mourners should be as if they had nothing to grieve them, the joyful as if they did not rejoice, buyers must not count on keeping what they buy, nor those who use the world’s wealth on using it to the full. For the whole frame of this world is passing away.”

So what happened to all that talk of end of times and Jesus’ return?

Ukba admits the following:
“I reject this Hadith in its entirety and MANY others that are attributed to Muhammad simply because they are made up, forgeries and nothing more. They were collected hundreds of years after the prophet's death.”

One of the two main pillars of Islam, the annonated hadith (tradition of Mohammad by Muslim and Bukhari), has just crashed down. It is a matter of a little more time when the other pillar, the Quran, would crumble also. Thanks to the internet. This cult has finally been exposed for what it is; a forgery.

You wrote: "Al-Bukhari and Muslim record that the Prophet (meaning Mohammad) stated: “By Him in whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (May peace be upon him) will soon descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses, kill swine and abolish Jizyah and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it.”

Why ‘kill the swine’, what have they done? And why break the crosses? Muhammad never did that when he was alive. This Hadith is silly and obviously a forgery. There is nothing in the Quran about Jesus or anyone else coming back from the dead to judge and lead the faithful. This is some type of apocalyptic messianic mumbo jumbo that has no place in the Qur’an or in the reliable mainstream Islamic theology. If this is a reliable testament then why is the Quran silent about it. Therefore I reject this Hadith in its entirety and many others that are attributed to Muhammad simply because they are made up, forgeries and nothing more. They were collected hundreds of years after the prophet's death.

To deny the divinity of Jesus Ukba quotes from Acts: "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know.”

I was not trying to do that. I was simply directing your attention and reminding you that Jesus could not do anything without external help as indicated in the Quran. Peter in Acts and Luke agree on this; he is only human being after all. Contrary to this you insist that Jesus is some type of a god and does not need help with anything even going against the supposed “inspired word of God” found in the bible. Are you saying the bible is wrong? Are you saying that Peter is wrong and doesn’t know what he is talking about when he said “mighty works and wonders and signs that God DID THROUGH him.” Please elaborate.

You wrote: “Abrogation in Quran. Definition; “None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?”2:106 . Here it is Allah who is supposedly speaking.”

The verse you cited deals with different revelations and specifically previous scriptures as found in the bible. It has nothing to do with the content of the Qur’an whatsoever. Verse 2:106 is located at a junction where the subject of previous revelations and the Qur’an is discussed:

“Neither those from among the followers of earlier revelation who are bent on denying the truth, nor those who ascribe divinity to other beings beside God, would like to see any good ever bestowed upon you from on high by your Sustainer; but God singles out for His grace whom He wills-for God is limitless in His great bounty. Such of our revelation as We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Do you not know that God has the power to will anything? Do you not know that God's is the dominion over the heavens and the earth, and that besides God you have none to protect you or bring you help?” Would you, perchance, ask of the Messenger who has been sent unto you what was asked aforetime of Moses? But whoever chooses to deny the [evidence of the] truth, instead of believing in it, has already strayed from the right path. Out of their selfish envy, many among the followers of earlier revelation would like to bring you back to denying the truth after you have attained to faith - [even] after the truth has become clear unto them. None the less, forgive and forbear, until God shall make manifest His will: behold, God has the power to will anything.” (2:105-109)

The only way for the statement “such of our revelation as We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof” to make sense is when the term revelation refers to previous revelation and scriptures. It has nothing to do with abrogating, forgetting, and replacing the present revelation which is the Qur’an. And any different explanation is useless and misguided.

The purpose of those verses as I understand the situation is there were some contemporary Jewish people objected to Muhammad and what he was preaching. They accused him of making up the Qur’an:

Continue...

Part 2.

"When We substitute one revelation in place of another, and God is fully aware of what He reveals, they say, 'You made this up'. Indeed most of them do not know." (16:101)

As an example, we are told in 2:187 that sexual intercourse between married couples during the nights of the fasting month was made lawful, while it was prohibited previously. We are also told in 6:146 that God prohibited for the Jews all animals with undivided hoofs; and of the cattle and sheep the fat was prohibited. These were made lawful in the Quran.

To these the Jews of course objected and called into question the veracity of the Qur’an as a revelation since it contradicts their notion of prophethood and what is legal and what is not according to the scriptures they have. They were not ready to give up what they always believed:

“O Messenger! Let not them grieve you who vie one with another in the race to disbelief, of such as say with their mouths: "We believe," but their hearts believe not, and of the Jews: listeners for the sake of falsehood, listeners on behalf of other folk who come not unto you, changing words from their context and saying: If this be given unto you, receive it, but if this be not given unto you, then beware! (5:40)

Some of Jews were prepared to accept such of the Qur’anic teachings as might suit their preconceived notions, but were not prepared to accept anything that went against their own inclinations. It never occurred to them that God can choose someone from outside the Jewish people and institute rules and commandments as he wishes. He should not be restricted to their desires and understanding of revelation. For the Qur’an tells them:

“And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which God has revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which has come unto you. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had God willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He has given you. So vie one with another in good works. Unto God you will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein you differ. (5:48)

Ukba asks me:
"You claim that Peter and Paul raised the dead in Jesus’ name which is a clear copout. What about the other two: Elijah and Elisha who lived hundreds of years before Jesus. Are they gods too?

Moi: No! But the God of Peter and Paul is also the God of Elisha and Elijah! Got that or should I repeat it!

To deny the divinity of Jesus Ukba quotes from Acts:
"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know.”
Moi: Peter was addressing the Jews who killed Jesus for claiming to be God, and eventually killed Peter for the same testimony.

Ukba pontificates: “Jesus will be the judge on Judgment Day?” I don’t think so!

Moi: But your prophet thinks so. Why did you ignore this following evidence?
.
Al-Bukhari and Muslim record that the Prophet (meaning Mohammad) stated:
“By Him in whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (May peace be upon him) will soon descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses, kill swine and abolish Jizyah and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it.”

Furthermore you never touched on the issue of CREATION. How many men does your book mention that created an ant, let alone a pigeon? How many men were described by your book as “from the spirit of Allah”? Let us be frank! It is much easier to show the divinity of Jesus, or any postulate one wishes from your Quran and Hadith which are plagued with outright contradictions, than from any other source. Maybe that should be another good reason for you to abrogate your whole book inshallah!

Correction: “Jesus, therefore, could do anything on his own.” It should read “Jesus, therefore, could not do anything on his own.”

“It is a fact that Jesus raised the dead and some of his disciples raised the dead in His name.”

The Qur’an says Jesus did those miracles by God’s permission. Now, let’s take a closer look at what the bible has to say about all the miracles Jesus was supposed to have done. Peter in one of his sermons says:

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know.” (Acts 2:22)

The first thing that is very clear is that Jesus is a man and not a man god or a god man. The second is Jesus did not do anything on his own; but it was God who did them through him; Similar to what we read in the Quran.

Jesus, therefore, could do anything on his own. And if you are not yet convinced here is another example where Jesus himself gives credit to his maker:

“But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.” (Luke 11:20)

As it is indicated Jesus did not take credit for what you attribute to him; I think that is wrong. Still, you did not respond to what I’ve said about the other four who supposed to have raised the dead; are they also gods. According to your criteria they must be. You claim that Peter and Paul raised the dead in Jesus’ name which is a clear copout. What about the other two: Elijah and Elisha who lived hundreds of years before Jesus. Are they gods too?

Then you write: "Ukba denies Jesus’ role as judge on Judgment Day thus; “You also state that “Jesus will be the judge on Judgment Day.” I don’t think so” But the Quran thinks so. “And on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus) will be a witness against them.” (Quran 4:157-159).

Abhab, you sure are a character. How can in any court of law a witness be a judge also? The two are different and are not the same. I guess this notion of witness judge amalgam exists only somewhere in your twisted frame of mind.

The Quran tells us that for every community there would be a witness who will challenge their pleading of ignorance and wrong doing. Jesus is no exception as also Muhammad and Moses will be witnesses against their own people:

“But one Day We shall raise up a witness out of every community, whereupon they who were bent on denying the truth will not be allowed to plead [ignorance], and neither will they be allowed to make amends… for one Day We shall raise up within every community a witness against them from among themselves. And thee [too, O Prophet,] have We brought forth to bear witness regarding these. (Chapter 16)

“When God said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favor unto you and unto your
mother; how I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit … to heal him who was born blind and the leper by my permission; and how you raised the dead by my permission.”

This is what the Quran claims and the Quran also claimed that Alexander the Great was a Muslim and Mary the mother of Jesus was also Moses’ sister etc. It is a fact that Jesus raised the dead and some of his disciples raised the dead in His name.

Then Ukba denies abrogation because it gets his whole cult in jeopardy and he knows it. Yet it is defined in their Quran as cited below and it is practiced as evidenced by the multitude of contradictions that riddle their book.

Abrogation in Quran
Definition;
“None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?”2:106 .
Here it is Allah who is supposedly speaking.

Ukba denies Jesus’ role as judge on Judgment Day thus;
“You also state that “Jesus will be the judge on Judgment Day.” I don’t think so”
But the Quran thinks so.
“And on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus) will be a witness against them.” (Quran 4:157-159).
And the Hadith thinks so.
Al-Bukhari and Muslim record that the Prophet (meaning Mohammad) stated:
“By Him in whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (May peace be upon him) will soon descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses, kill swine and abolish Jizyah and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it.”
Not that I have any faith in what the Quran says or do not say.

“They believe he raised the dead and created pigeons even when a small boy. Isn’t that admitting He is God?”

If anyone who raises people from the dead is a god then God is not only three in one, as your three god religion dictates, but a multitude of personalities. Peter raised a dead woman named Dorcas and Paul raised a man called Eutychus. Elijah raised a boy from death and so did Elisha. If you follow your reasoning to its final conclusion you have to admit that Peter, Paul, Elijah, and Elisha are also gods. You now have a godhead made up of seven gods.

The subject of Jesus is elaborated on in many places in the Quran. He performed many miracles but that does not necessarily mean that he is somehow divine:

“When God said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favor unto you and unto your mother; how I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit … to heal him who was born blind and the leper by my permission; and how you raised the dead by my permission.” (5:109)

According to the Qur’an it is obvious that whatever Jesus did was not of his personal abilities but instead ascribed to the one who sent him; in fact, on his own Jesus is powerless. And the subject of Jesus’ divinity is clearly denied in the Quran:

“O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of God, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - God is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth.” (4:170)

You also state that “Jesus will be the judge on Judgment Day.” I don’t think so. Judgment is for God and God alone. No human being, including Jesus, Muhammad and Moses, is to judge anyone. You are wrong as always.

Now we come to your favorite subject: abrogation. There is no abrogation of Qur’anic verses. The doctrine is based on wrong interpretation. Therefore it is a moot subject for me and I reject it and all its premises. In fact Muslims are advised to say:

"We believe in it (the Quran); the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Lord and Sustainer.”(3:8)

Revised(2)

Ukba is lashing back at Christianity
because I mentioned the “abrogation principle” in his Quran. First he is sure that I am a Christian and a “present day Christian” at that to deny me the benefit of any doubt. Then he summarizes the whole Christian theology in one line. Needles to say his understanding of Christianity is flawed because his prophet’s knowledge of Christianity is confused and contradictory. Their book states that Jesus will be the judge on Judgment Day. They believe he raised the dead and created pigeons even when a small boy. Isn’t that admitting He is God? Their prophet believes that Christians believe that Mary the mother of Jesus is another God. What should we expect of a desert dweller in 7th Century Arabia? What should we expect of those who believe in him as Messenger of Allah and representative of Allah on earth?
The principle of abrogation states that Allah did change some rules and cancelled others during Mohammad’s ministry because of changing situations on the ground.The Quran admits that much.
Has change stopped with the death of Mohammad? Change is a generic trait, and even Muslims realize that. This runs counter to the Muslim’s assertions that the Quran is immutable and good for all times and places. Either Muslims get fossilized in 7th Century Arabia’s culture, which is what is happening to a great degree, or abrogate the whole Quran. This is the dilemma that they prefer to avoid..

Ukba is lashing back at Christianity because I mentioned the “abrogation principle” in his Quran. First he is sure that I am a Christian and a “present day Christian” at that. Then he summarizes the whole Christian theology in one line. Needles to say his understanding of Christianity is flawed because his prophet’s knowledge of Christianity is confused and contradictory. Their book states that Jesus will be the judge on Judgment Day. They believe he raised the dead and created pigeons even when a small boy. Isn’t that admitting He is God? Their prophet believes that Christians believe that Mary the mother of Jesus is another God. What should we expect of a desert dweller in 7th Century Arabia? What should we expect of those who believe in him as Messenger of Allah and representative of Allah on learth?
The principle of abrogation states that Allah did change some rules and cancelled others during Mohammad’s ministry because of changing situations on the ground.
Has change stop with the death of Mohammad? Change is a generic trait, and even Muslims realize that. This runs counter to the Muslim’s assertions that the Quran is immutable and good for all times and places. Either Muslims get fossilized in 7th Century Arabia’s culture, which is what is happening to a great egree, abrogate the whole Quran. This is the dilemma that they are avoiding

In Islam, there is a fundamental principle of how to have the right standing before God. To be right with God is made conditional on three elements: belief in God, belief in the Day of Judgment, and righteous action in life:

“For, verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Sabians, and the Christians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.(5:69)

This theme is repeated several times in the Qur’an. Thus, according to the Qur'an, “salvation” is not reserved for any particular "denomination" or a group of people, but is open to everyone who consciously realizes the oneness of God, surrenders himself to His will and, by living righteously, gives practical effect to this spiritual attitude:

“And they claim, "None shall ever enter the Garden unless he be a Jew" - or, "a Christian". Such are their wishful beliefs! Say: "Produce an evidence for what you are claiming, if what you say is true!" Yea, indeed: everyone who surrenders his whole being unto God, and is a doer of good withal, shall have his reward with his Sustainer; and all such need have no fear, and neither shall they grieve.” (2:111-112)

On the other hand we have today’s Christianity of which this character abhab is a member of. I say today’s Christianity is because this religion is nothing like the religion of Jesus and that of his apostles and their contemporary Jewish Christians. Other forms of Christianity also exited but suffered persecutions and later on extinction. What we have today is a religion built on two main doctrines, none of them instituted by Jesus himself. The first is to believe that Jesus is a god and the second is that he died for the sins of those who believe in him. Nonbelievers of these convoluted dogmas are promised eternal damnation in the lake of fire where “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

This religion then is structured around faith and faith only; actions and deeds count for nothing. One can carry the doctrine to its final conclusion: a Nazi person can be in God’s grace if he just believes that Jesus is a god and that he died for his sins. Is that fair? http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html

To Crescent girl,

You wrote: “Imams are of the male persuasion. They are the only ones that can lead a group of mixed-gender congregants in prayer. (women can lead women-only groups in prayer.) Ms. Taylor is mistaken if she thinks she is an imam.”

It has been traditionally so but I see no reason why that must and continue to be true. Traditions are not written in stone and should not be elevated to level of rigid doctrines. There is no theological or practical reason why any qualified woman should not lead a mixed congregation. The exclusion of woman in this field is a construct made and promulgated by men who traditionally have total control of theological matters. Any issue should be judged only on its own merits instead of how things are and always have been. Many women are qualified and feel they have a calling to preach and be a positive influence on their community; they should not be denied their wishes because of traditions that stand in their way.

You also state: “Men and women are different. We both have different roles to play in society. Men are the natural leaders and as such are the Imams, the head of households etc. Women, are by nature are the nurturers, child-bearers and the like. This does not make us unequal from men...just different. Men and women were created for different roles in society, but are equal in the eyes of God.”

I agree but only to a certain extent. Yes, we are different and have different roles to play. But what you describe may have been the case of a bygone time; women now are heads of household, leaders, civil servants, scientists, business owners among other things; they have control over their lives now more than any time before. We might argue about the merits of women joining the work force but we cannot dismiss the reality of our changing world.

To Crescent girl,

You wrote: “A woman has just as much ability to reach God's favor as a man does...it is through our deeds that this is achieved. So, to those women who support the woman imam movement, i guess my question is...why do you want to be a man? Why are you trying to prove soo hard that you are equal to a man...but, do not see that in God's eyes your deeds are what determines whether you are in his favor and not your gender?”

Yes, we are equal in our duties and responsibilities toward God. The question is why women must be excluded from preaching. You claim that it is the men’s responsibility to preach to the exclusion of women. And you assume that the sole purpose of women who want to break away from this tradition is activism and gender equality. I think that’s an exaggeration. Those women who want to be imams do not necessarily do it to be equal to men or to infringe on their ‘rights’ to preach; they feel qualified and feel a desire to dedicate themselves to a higher and noble goal.

Allowing women to preach and lead in prayers can only add and enrich our understanding of theological issues especially from feminine point of view. I think we heard enough from men and their interpretations and teachings to the exclusion of women and it is high time that they should also be involved. They can also be positive role models for young girls to take interest in their religion. They cannot do that if they feel excluded and disenfranchised; it is after all what you advocate: a world view dominated by men. Women who wish to be imams should not be denied their yearning because of some draconian rules and traditions that have no place in today’s world.

Momtotsan ;

“So too, principles of pluralism are inherent within the Quran, which is one of a very small number of holy scriptures which explicitly acknowledges the followers of other religions have a place in Heaven.”

I grant you that there are a few verses that seem to be tolerant of others, but unfortunately those were abrogated (cancelled) by many later verses such as

1. A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24
2. Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 2:90
3. All non-Muslims will be rejected by Allah after they die. 3:85

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html

Crescent Girl -- I totally aree, it is not our gender which is important to Allah, it is our faith and our deeds. Which is why I reject any man or woman telling women that they cannot perform this or that deed that is pleasing to Allah based solely upon their gender identity.

Besides, the Prophet himself assigned Umm Waraqa to lead prayers in mixed congregation, based upon her knowledge. Who are we to reject his practice!

Ahbab -- 1) As I said, if the religious values of a prospective judge make it impossible for them to uphold the Constitution (which sadly still lacks the Equal Rights Ammendment explicitly protecting the rights of Women) that would disqualify them.

2) I disagree that Muslims/Islam necessarily view women and people of other religions as secondary. There are some glaring examples in modern Muslim society, but that is neither necessary nor even exemplary. Just as the status of women in the US has changed drastically in my own lifetime, I fully expect that the status of women in the Muslim world is going to change drastically within my lifetime, based partially on the work Western Feminists have done but based even more strongly on egalitarian principles found within the Qur'an. So too, principles of pluralism are inherent within the Quran, which is one of a very small number of holy scriptures which explicitlly acknowledges the followers of other religions have a place in Heaven.

Pamela

"We have, of course, an excellent example of a female imam, Imam Pamela, who's totally committed to a gender and faith blind life."

Tommytstarts, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but there is no such thing as a female Imam in Islam. Imams are of the male persuasion. They are the only ones that can lead a group of mixed-gender congregants in prayer. (women can lead women-only groups in prayer.) Ms. Taylor is mistaken if she thinks she is an imam. I am a Muslim woman and was born and raised in the u.s....the supposed champion of civil and women's rights...but, I do not understand Ms. Taylor's need to be a women Imam. Men and women are different. We both have different roles to play in society. Men are the natural leaders and as such are the Imams, the head of households etc. Women, are by nature are the nurturers, child-bearers and the like. This does not make us unequal from men...just different. Men and women were created for different roles in society, but are equal in the eyes of God. A woman has just as much ability to reach God's favor as a man does...it is through our deeds that this is achieved. So, to those women who support the woman imam movement, i guess my question is...why do you want to be a man? Why are you trying to prove soo hard that you are equal to a man...but, do not see that in God's eyes your deeds are what determines whether you are in his favor and not your gender?

Halozcel1

Galaxies do warp. Either from close encounters with other galaxies (M51 or Larger Magellanic Cloud, for example) or from mutual interaction with other galaxies with the same gravitationally bound galaxy cluser.

There are bad people and bad societies in every religious grouping. In the material that you quoted in part and without her full explanation, Pamela's point seems to be that her religious grouping might be better off to focus more on changing from the inside than on defending itself from complains about its bad apples.

By the way, the U.S. has yet to elect a woman head of state. Indonesia (worlds most populous muslim country), Pakistan (second in that list), Bangladesh (third) and Turkey (fifth) have elected women presidents or prime ministers. Pakistan elected the same woman twice and Bangladesh has elected two different women. In Egypt, about 1/3rd of the parliament is female.

Too many people think that Islam is synonymous with Saudi Arabia. Actually, most muslims live in Asia, not the middle east.

As for Pamela, I believe that right now she is in Malaysia (a muslim majority country), speaking at a conference on womens' rights,

Until the autobiography of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Infidel, is allowed to be read by all Muslims, "imam" Taylor's diversity comments ring quite hollow!!

Some excerpts from said book:

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."
ref: Washington Post book review.
four excerpts:
p. 47 paperback issue:
"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:
"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."
p.309
"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."
p. 347
"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

And before some commentators get all uppity about Ms. Ali's visas, let it be known once again, (as noted also in her book), that it was necessary to lie on her visas as without doing so she would have been assassinated by Ismalic extremists just like her good friend Theo van Gogh.

Tommytstar,

*Warped Galaxies*(Galaxies dont warp)

Saturday,July 11,2009

Time for Change

*We are tired of the continual calls to condemn acts of violence by Muslim militants tired of having to explain the misogyny is not inherent to Islam,despite (islamic) Iran,the Taliban(students) and Saudi(homeland of islam) style oppression of women*

Some questions;
-Who protests Islamic Iran and Saudi Bedouinestan from all over the world ? How many Demonstrations/Meeting held by Protesters ?
-If Misogyny is not inherent/character/nature of islam,where is the woman-man equality in islamic countries ?
-*Time for Change*,what do you try to change and how ?

Abhab,

We have, of course, an excellent example of a female imam, Imam Pamela, who's totally committed to a gender and faith blind life. Her extensive participation in human rights activities and her writings on the subject, on "On Faith" and elsewhere, are well presented on her web site, and in particular on her blog at

http://www.pktaylor.com/pksblog/warpedgalaxies.html

Ms. Taylor says:
“Particularly important is how the life experiences of people from different backgrounds and religions informs the understanding of basic ideas such as equality”

Ms Taylor should have elaborated on the above statement with an example such that a person from her religious background would define equality as between males from among her coreligionists. Females and others of different faiths would have a second and third class status or worse.