Abortion Rights Pose a Multitude of Moral Dilemmas

my user id for the previous post doesn't show- it's sparrow4
-sparrow

I have no real knowledge to assess the koran or even, really the bible. There are others far more knowledgeable but to Asim I say, I think you don't know your history, nor do you know much about other religions. calling Judaism or Christianity corrupt because you believe in the koran is not an argument, it's an opinion, one which you would have to back up by more than your interpretation of the koran, or the teachings of Imans.

Pamela, you wrote:"I am totally against legislating morality, except in those cases where one person's moral agency impacts the life of another person. Abortion is not simply a moral decision, it is one that impact the very life of another individual, albeit a dependent individual." You make the mistake most pro-lifers make. You ignore the rights of the woman. You ignore her life and her worth. And you do this because you believe life begins at conception. I do not. Your belief- and it is clearly a belief,comes from your religious belief. Mine comes from both my study of science and my religious beliefs.

We die when our bodies can no longer function- when the body can no longer bind the soul to itself because of illness or accident. I believe this is also true of fertilization- there is no soul, hence it is not a child until the body is developed enough to hold a soul. All a developing mass of cells is a potential human being. but by insisting on this, or even more extremely, believing eggs must also be protected, hence birth control is also a no-no, you degrade the women into nothing more than a baby incubator. You are essentially holding her body for ransom. And for a woman who has been raped to be forced to bear that child- you may as well rape her over and over again.

Life is about choice- we chose to send young men and women to war, knowing full well they may be killed or kill. Abortion is the same thing- a hard choice but as a society we have to choose whether or not a woman is more important than a potential child, whether or not we can afford, as a society, to hold her body in ransom to that child until it is born, and whether or not we will choose to not be our sister's keeper so much as her prison guard.

I fear a society that is incapable of feeling compassion for a young, frightened and hurt victim of incest, ignorance or rape is incapable of kindness, innate goodness or equality. a society that reaches inside a woman's body and determines to hold it hostage is a society that really has no regard for human life, all their arguments to the contrary.If you can't grant that right and dignity to the living, what makes you think you can bestow it on the unborn?

Hmmm, one solution? How about a global/UN DNA databank? i.e. Every global citizen would have their DNA on record.

In rape cases, the rapists would then be identified immediately? Said rapists would be severely punished, made to pay reparations to include child care or in some cases castrated? Global enforcement agencies such as the UN, US military, NATO, INTERPOL et al would track down said low life?

Halozcel

Asım from SA is asking Mrs.Pamela Taylor her opinion about rape of Bosnian women(let me remind not only muslim women,but Croatian and Serbian women had been raped as well)

Asım,
What is your opinion and consideration about Kuwaiti muslim women who had been raped by Iraqi muslim invaders and Iraqi women who are being raped by the armed muslim insurgents ?
And,Darfurian women being raped and genocided by muslim terrorists ?

Asım,
You write many times that *authentical original divine scriptures before they were corrupted by those people*
You have been asked by the bloggers many times,but you couldnt reply.I ask one more time.
Who corrupted *authentical original divine scriptures* and when had occured and why they doctored ?
Dont 1.8 Billion Christians know this corruption,but only you and e few fanatics know.
From the beginning of Christianity,all documents had been being reserved at Vatican.Who and when corrupted ? Please,please I want your knowledge.

Besides,you accuse Christians to corrupt/doctor *original scriptures*,but,what about your book.
First written quran had been set on fire/burnt by Eboo Bakr and present quran collected during the time of third caliph Utman.
Is your book Authentic and Original ?
Abraham(He was not a person,it was the name of Jewish Clan) had lived 38-39 centuries B.P.(Before Present)
Kaaba had been built 16-17 centuries B.P.
Your *original divine scripture*which had been sent by revelation to an *unlettered man* first word *read* says;Kaaba had been built by Abraham.
How could a man who had lived 38 centuries B.P. build a building which dated 16-17 centuries B.P. ?
Is this your *authentical original divine scripture* ?

Hi Asim,

I really don't know what I personally would have done in that instance. And it's one of those cases where the morality of the situation just breaks down for me. I certainly would not judge anyone for any choice they made in that situation.

As for legislating morality, paganplace, I am totally against legislating morality, except in those cases where one person's moral agency impacts the life of another person. Abortion is not simply a moral decision, it is one that impact the very life of another individual, albeit a dependent individual. At that point, the law does have a role to play. We do not allow people moral agency to take life or not at any other stage of the game, with very few exceptions (like self-defense, which is analogous to an abortion to prortect the woman's life/health). But you cannot go out and commit vigilante style justice, nor can you murder someone because they make your life hard. I think the state does have business in regulating morality where moral agency bears directly impinges upon other people's rights to life.

Pamela

Anonymous,

Your translation doesnt give exact notion.

Allah(not God) Compassionate towards you.Merciful(only and only *true believer muslim*
Allah hates from non-muslim/infidels

*Clear revelation* describes Trinity as *Father,Son,Mary*,is this *clear revelation* ?

*The Light*.Yes,light.
Could you show any *enlightened muslim country* ?
The Light is The Civilization.
The Light is Human Rights.

Halozcel

He is the One who sends down to His servant clear revelations, to bring you out of the darkness into the light. God is Compassionate towards you, Merciful

Quran 57-9

*sigh.* Forgot to sign the last post. The login seems to not be posting my screen name. -Paganplace

(And whoever's testing, I don't think there's anything that can be done on the user end at this point.)

"Whether we should rescind or amend Roe v. Wade is perhaps the single most difficult question for me to answer. The moral conundrums created by abortion are complex and the process of weighing which results in the least harm to the greatest number of people gives me different answers on different days, even from hour to hour."

Well, I'd just say, if it's a 'dilemma and conundrum,' then maybe it's not for government to decide how people of good faith, reason, and intention, resolve it in their own bodies.

Now, some may be comfortable overturning Roe v Wade and blaming the victims for the cosial consequences, but I wonder if even *they* want to see what happens in the law when the 'right to privacy,' particularly about one's own body goes away.

Maybe I could Google your genome. Maybe someone who *really* likes you could clone you off your HMO's blood samples for a nominal fee...

This is a *legal* ruling. Most notably about the right to privacy. It has *legal* implications. Like what happened to contract law and our right to sue corporations or petition the government for a redress of grievances under certain 'defense of marriage' initiatives, the court ruling is about the *law,* and whatever you think about that, ...the 'issue' is another matter.

The biggest thing this 'national debate' seems to do is teach people it's actually about 'a moral decision,' (and that it's yours to make for others) and whether or not it's OK for the state to make that decision in someone else's body.

But the *law* is about the *law.* Overturning it has broader scope than that.

test

Reality Check

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.
Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.
Current crisis:
Realization that the Jews are not god's not chosen people.
simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. www. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology. .

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."
The caste/laborer system and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

Current crises:

The caste system and cow worship/reverence.

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

Only three prayers mentioned in Quran according to an Indian cleric

http://members.tripod.com/Signs_Magazines/issue4/profile_chekannur_moulavi.htm

http://www.quranic.org/

http://www.quranmiracles.com/

"Koranist":

Firstly,
How could u claim that only the Koran stands up without the Sunnah? But the Koran was revealed to the Prophet-and he was the examplary person to interpret it and show Muslims its true meanings in real life. Besides the Koran says nothing about the five daily prayers and how to perform them?? Prayers is the backbone of a Muslim's faith after the Shahadah-as an example.

Secondly,
When God in the Koran addresses the people of the book-Jews and christians-God refers to the authentic original divine scriptures before they were corrupted by those people;let me give u one clear and unequivocal example: the Koran states clearly that those who say Jesus Christ the son of mary, IS the son of god are disbelievers-Kafroun-or if they say Jesus is one of the three-trinity-are also Kaafroun-meaning that they don't believe in the Oneneness of God, absolute Monotheism and deny such fact.

Cleraly,the gospels of Jesus were corrupted;Also if the old testament was not corrupted, the Jews would have believed in Jesus and the Christians would have believed in Muhammad-those who already embraced Islam at the time-we are concerned with those who did not.

Also where is and whatever happened to the Gospel of St Barnabis Which clearly prophesizes the coming of the Prophet Muhammad.

Moreover, how could the two faiths be authentic-Judaism and Christianity-when they failed to prophesize the coming of a world religion that is based on the same authentic faiths of Abraham, Moses and Jesus??

The so called "koranists" are clearly suspect in their motives and their position flies in the face of logic,reason and facts and have no bases on which to stand.It is like saying I believe in Christainity without Jesus-in the sense disbelieving in the gospel which he preached-leaving for the moment what happened to it after his death.

Why would any sane person want to drop the Sunnah of the Prophet???? It is the gold mine of wisdom and light that guides Musslims.

Muslims understand the difference between the Koran and the Sunnah-that is why Muslims recorded the Sunnah nearly two centuries after the Prophet so as not confuse it with the Koran.
Think about it long and hard-u just don't make any sense.

Pamela,
Well-thought out it and profound piece.

Am intersted in your opinion about the en masse rape of Bosnian Muslim women of all ages by the Serb Orthodox Christians to humiliate these females and destroy their self-esteem.

What do u think they should have done in such a case?

Bullcrackers and tartar sauce, Pamela. Anti-abortion believers seem to focus on the life of the unborn as more essential and crucial than the lives of people already here. That sort of mentality condemns women as nothing more than mere breeders, whose only purpose is continued lines of succession. It's an ancient mentality, and one that smacks of misogyny.

All this just makes me tired. You are making an enormous problem out of something that should really not be that. An early abortion is not such a big deal, it shouldn't be dangerous - at least less dangerous than a full time pregnancy - and it shouldn't have to cause the woman or girl any remorse. Why would someone commit suicide because of an abortion? Not if it's early and the woman is not told this is BIG and a DILEMMA. I don't buy all the guilt you are heaping on pregnant women.

Anyone should have access to day after-pills if necessary. It's not something she should have to discuss wit anyone else, unless she wants to. Young people must get proper sex education in school, and then access to birth control - preferably condoms, since they also offer some protection against diseases. You can only make an informed decision of you are informed.

Religion is really messing people's lives up sometimes.

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The Koran came to confirm the previous scriptures. There is nothing in the Koran about the previous scriptures being corrupted.

ay: "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord, If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: But many of them follow a course that is evil. (5,68-69)

Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (5,47)

But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Law before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)

5.44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

5.46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; Surah 5 Verse 48

All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say,"Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth." (Surah 3, Al-i-'Imran, verse 93)

And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that) was before thee... (Surah 10, Jonah, verse 94)

O People of the Book, now has come to you Our Messenger, clarifying to you much of that you used to conceal of the Book and passing over much ." (5:15)

"It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).

2.41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

2.89 And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.

2.91 When it is said to them, “Believe in what Allah Hath sent down, “they say, “We believe in what was sent down to us:” yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: “Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?”

Koran came to CONFIRM the previous scriptures. Real Islam is only Koran