Pride and Other All-Consuming Sins

Most natural theologicans think that Satan's sin was his refusal to bow before the new Adam Jesus Christ - the Son of God and therefore true God and true man. God would never ask an angel to bow before a mere man. That would be like asking us to bow before a snail. - Such an act would be unintelligible and God is the essence of intelligibility - all-knowing and all-loving.

Americanism vs. Islamism

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=14038&t=Americanism+vs.+Islamism%3A+A+personal+perspective

Indian Institute of Islamic Studies

http://www.csss-isla.com/IIS/aboutus.php

Vicky Twisted- please make a note of this:

"Revealing truth is not hateful. Revealing truth is liberating. What motivates your constant lies, half truths, and dissembling? Once you know- you have taken the first step towards freedom."

Few people can be happy unless they hate some other person, nation or creed.[B RUSSEL]

These are articles from Indian Institute Of Islamic Studies And Research Centre

The Institute had reformist ends and was set up by those who felt the need for rethinking issues in Islam.

The Institute of Islamic Studies was founded to project Islam and Islamic values in the correct Qur'anic perspective and to emphasise funamental Islamic values of justice, equality, peace, compassion, human dignity, freedom of conscience, inter-faith understanding and wisdom.

The Institute of Islamic Studies has been striving ever since to disseminate these values through its writings, publications, seminars and other intellectual events. It has evoked wide appreciation throughout the world.

The IIS is also committed to promote inter-faith harmony and organises inter-faith dialogues involving religious leaders of various communities.

The IIS is also deeply committed to women's rights and believes that the Qur'an promotes the concept of sexual equality in unambiguous terms. It holds various events to promote women's rights and stands for reformulation of issues relating to man-woman relationship on the basis of pronouncements of the Qur'an and in the light of democratic values and human rights.

Victoria- Rather than admitting your lies- you become a hypocrite.

You say- "i dont se wikipedia as a study guide for my religion, or- well- anything at all" but fail to mention this when Eboo Patel uses wiki as a reference? Many posters have noted your propensity to dissemble. You ask for someone to point to one lie and this is just one small lie among many you post to this board. Why must you attempt to cover a small lie with greater lies and rebukes?

Remember this, Vicky?

"In their heart, there is a disease and God increases their disease, a painful doom is theirs because they lie"(2: 10).

"God knows that you are His Messenger while God testifies that hypocrites are liars" (63: 1).

"Verily, truth leads to virtue and virtue leads to paradise and a true man continues to speak truth until he becomes the most truthful person. Lies lead to evil and evil leads to hell and a liar continues to lie till he is listed as a highest ranking liar before God" (Bukhari).

i dont use wikipedia as a valid source-

MR PATEL used wikipedia in his article- i was commenting on the ARTICLE-

however, when mr mark pointed out the same thing- i used many other posts of more valid origin-
and responded with this

"HI MR MARK-
thanks for your reasonable response-

i also view wikipedia with a jaded eye as a source of any validity-
however- the definition seems apt- so despite its origins- the definition itself seems worthy enough to use-"

to use wikipedia as a source for religious instruction- seems to be a rahter lazy approach to n=ones instruction

i have posted about my disregard for wikipedia countles times on these threads- apparently youve also missed that.

ive also used wikipedia but only in conjunction with other more substantial sources, as a support but not SINGLE source.

your statement- "You are a LIAR in the EXTREME"

seems a bit overstated.

to further punch your opinion home by making accusations of falsely posting anonymously-
and pushing the intitial ad hominem to NOTORIOUS liar is pretty far fetched.

i guess you will remain angry because i made the revealing correlation between your self professed revelatory independent conclusions and their identical similarity to the paper by mr smith-

it is what it is richard-

no, i do not post anonymously, and if it occurs through my own carelessness, i quickly rectify it.

however, if i HAD mnade that post, i would be proud to take credit for it as it is an exellent post.

however, i cannot take that credit.

"Verify if post of January 25, 2008 11:56 PM is by Imam Pamela K Taylor."

Anonymous-

Anyone may have posted it -including notorious LIAR Victoria.

I do know it is cut&pasted from:

http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/

Hope this helps..

The life of the founder should be considered the highest practice of the religion. By that criteria Mohammad who established political rule in Medina after having little success at conversion through peaceful means in Mecca for twelve years, preached with an army since his migration to Medina when the Islamic era began, had many wives after the age of fifty, married a six year old at the age of fifty and consummated the marriage when the child was only nine years old, made divorce ludicrously easy thus leaving many children without access to both biological parents, had his opponents killed, taught that idolatory is worse than bloodshed...is not trivia.

Verify if post of January 25, 2008 11:56 PM is by Imam Pamela K Taylor.

A smart case by a lawyer for Islam, however a case that could be easily squashed by a good judge of religions familiar with the Scripture of Judaism and Christianity and can trace the Quranic texts with precision; can understand the political context of Mohammad's time without Islamic brainwashing; can understand the meaning of spiritual revelations and the misuse of them even by someone who might call himself a prophet. Religious revelation must of necessity be put to the test of reason. Since Islam has borrowed heavily from the revelations of Jewish and Christian Scripture, and has merely adapted it to form a political system, it must pass through the test of Jewish and Christian revelation. The Islamic revelation seems to be more like a handbook for a ruler seeking political conquest in the name of religion. There is little reference to a personal religion, the emphasis is more on how a state should legislate religion for a dissent free rule.

The Qur’an is a revealed scripture of religion of Islam and one of the greatest revealed scriptures. It is in Arabic language and according to the Qur’an itself it is in language easily understandable. Thus the Qur’an says, “ And certainly We have made the Qur’an easy to remember, but is there anyone who will mind?” (54:17). But the Qur’an is easy to understand and also difficult to comprehend in places. The Qur’an itself says, “he it is Who has revealed the Book to thee; some of its verses are decisive (muhkamatun) – they are the basis of the book – and others are allegorical. Then those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part of it which is allegorical (mutashabihat), seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. And none knows its interpretation save Allah, and those firmly rooted in knowledge. They say (those firmly rooted in knowledge) it is all from our Lord. And none mind except men of reason and understanding.” (3:6)

Thus it is clear from above verse of the Holy Qur’an that there are passages which are allegorical and liable to different interpretation. Its true interpretation is known either to Allah or to those who are firmly rooted in knowledge and who believe in revelation from the core of their heart. However, there are those who do not believe in revelation sincerely and uses such allegorical verses for misleading others and for spreading confusion. It is those people who are perverse.

The great revealed book like the Qur’an cannot be without allegorical verses as it deals with complex situations, metaphysical questions, nature of creator and creations and other unknown and unseen realities. In such situations it is very difficult to do without allegories but these allegorical verses too, are pregnant with meaning but also, as the Qur’an says, liable to be misinterpreted by those whose hearts are not straight and who mean mischief. But also, there are those who are not only very sincere in belief but also people of knowledge – al-rasikhun fi’ al-‘ilm who, because of their firm faith in the Book and their depth of knowledge, understand the real import of these verses and explain it to others.

But, despite the firm faith and depth of knowledge al-rasikhun fi’ al-‘ilm are likely to differ with each other in understanding these verses because of differing socio-cultural background on one hand, and, because of differing circumstances and changing social scene and ever going on developments. These could be sincere differences in interpretation. The Qur’an denounces only those who intend to use allegorical verses for misleading others and for spreading confusion.

For revealed books like the Qur’an (or other scriptures too) it is necessary to start with to have faith – what the Qur’an calls iman bi’ al-ghayb. But – and it is also important to note – the Qur’an does not demand blind faith. It speaks of ‘reasoned faith’ which satisfies the people of understanding – u’lil albab. Literally u’lil albab means people of essence and since reason is essence of mind, people of reason are called u’lil albab. Thus Qur’an does not demand from us to accept something just because it is revealed but also because it satisfies human reason. Human reason is also creation of Allah and revelation is also from Him. Some might object that how revelation could be judged by human reason? Apparently this seems to be a valid objection. But little reflection will show that it is not so. Gold is always tested by touchstone but it is no body’s case that touchstone is more important than gold. Without touchstone we cannot make sure that gold is genuine. Similar is the relationship between reason and revelation. Revelation is very important for human guidance from Allah yet human beings must satisfy themselves before accepting the revelation that it is genuine.

The relationship between reason and revelation is, however, little more complex than it appears to us. As gold has its inner worth and its inner worth can be appreciated by only those who have to only understanding but also inner senses to appreciate its inner worth without which it is nothing more than a yellow metal. Similarly, the revealed knowledge also has inner worth which can be appreciated by only those who not only have sensory perceptions but also heart and soul to appreciate its worth. The Qur’an repeatedly refers to this fact.

There are people who have eyes to see and ears to hear but still cannot appreciate the worth of revealed knowledge. In other words mere sensory perceptions, though extremely important in their own way, are not sufficient for judging the worth of revelation. The Qur’an describes them as summun, bukmun, ‘umyun (2:18) i.e. deaf, dumb and blind who return not (to the truth, to the guidance). Thus sense perceptions are necessary but not sufficient for appreciation of true guidance (from Allah). It needs real appreciation from one’s heart and soul. However, the relationship between revelation and its proper appreciation on one hand, and that between revelation and reason, on the other, is so delicate that ordinarily one can be easily deceived by those who mislead people for their own vested interests.

Thus appreciation of true revelation is not possible by ignorant and those without the faculty of intellect. The Qur’an thus lays stress on both reason and revelation and also it says that real interpretation of those verses which are allegorical is possible only by al-rasikhun fi’ al-‘ilm (those firmly rooted in knowledge). Thus knowledge and learning is of utmost importance for proper appreciation of the revelation.

It is also important to note that the Qur’an, though contained highest body of knowledge, was initially addressing those who were either illiterate (either Bedouins of desert or those of town like Mecca though rich and experienced yet intellectually far from accomplished or those who had recently migrated from desert for a settled life in urban areas) or semi-literate but experienced in financial matters. And initially main respondents to the Qur’anic message were mostly poor and illiterates. Thus its message had to be in a language which could be easily understood by these poor and illiterate people both of urban as well as desert areas. And hence the Qur’an says, “And certainly We have made the Qur’an easy to remember” (54:17)

But the Qur’an was not dealing with a static situation; it was dealing with dynamic and changing society which would need knowledge to deal with very complex situations. Hence allegorical verses pregnant with meaning were also needed and such verses could be dealt with only by those who had adequate knowledge and intellectual sophistication and accomplishments. Thus, though the Qur’an was dealing with very simplistic people it was not confining itself only to them. Its guidance had to transcend that situation.

In developing methodology of understanding the Qur’an it is very necessary to understand that a revealed scripture does not only deal with what is given but has to cater to what is to come. A religion (deen) is always spiritually transcendent i.e. going beyond the given situation. The vested interests oppose it precisely because it subverts the status quo. Wherever there are vested interests there are in built injustices what we call in modern politico-economic terminology structural injustices. A revealed scripture like the Qur’an has to address itself to these structural injustices and hence faces stiff opposition from the vested interests.

The pre-Islamic society in Mecca was controlled by rich traders on one hand, and, by priests (kahins) who were in collusion with these traders, on the other. While the rich traders were exploiting the poor of the Mecca and suppressing them by various means including through their illiteracy and superstitions. The kahins of Ka`aba were quite helpful in spreading superstitious beliefs and hence their collusion with rich and powerful tribal chiefs. The Qur’an addressed itself to correcting this ignoble state of affairs. This would not have been possible without spiritual renewal and without demolishing the bastion of tribal power – superstitions and social divisiveness perpetrated through various means one of which was idolatry (each tribe worshipping its own idol and developing set of superstitious beliefs around it).

The spiritual renewal was possible only through attacking ignorance, illiteracy, superstitions, divisiveness and socio-economic injustices. The Qur’an stressed belief in unity of God (tawhid) and thus demolished in one stroke tribal divisiveness. Thus tawhid, if followed in its true spirit, could accomplish many goals at a time – religious as well as social. It was through the concept of and belief in tawhid that all superstitions woven around tribal idols were demolished. It was the concept of tawhid that dealt a fatal blow to divisiveness in the society and brought about a strong sense of unity of all human beings as creatures of one God. Thus the concept of tawhid had great social potentialities which began to unfold themselves once people embraced it.

To empower weaker sections of society was also a very important task without which neither injustices could be removed from social structure nor the goal of social and spiritual renewal could be achieved. And to empower the weaker sections of society and also for their spiritual renewal imparting knowledge was highly necessary and hence the very first revealed verse of the Qur’an begins with the word iqra’ (i.e. recite, read or in other words acquire knowledge). All sociologists know that knowledge is power and it is knowledge, which empowers the weaker sections of the society. The vested interests exploit the weak through their ignorance. It is only through knowledge that they can be empowered. And through knowledge they will be liberated from oppression and exploitation and it is through knowledge that their spiritual renewal will be possible and it is knowledge that will liberate them from superstitions.

Thus the two major themes of the Qur’an, apart from others, are tawheed and ‘ilm (i.e. Unity of God and knowledge). Both these were powerful weapons to unite people and to liberate them from superstitions and oppression. No wonder than that the weaker sections of society and the youth who are eager for change responded to the message of Islam most enthusiastically.

The liberation from all sorts of exploitation and oppression being a major theme of the Qur’an, women’s liberation also became a priority for the Qur’an. Women were among the most oppressed sections of society in the pre-Islamic era. The burial of girl child was most symbolic of this oppression against women. The Qur’an denounces this practice in no uncertain terms. Those who bury the girl child alive will be questioned on the day of judgement. “And when one buried alive is asked? For what sin she was killed?” (81:9) Unfortunately the practice is till there in many parts of the world including certain parts of India.

Women were given same status as men in every respect. If anyone has doubt let him refer to the verse 33:35. Yes, it is true there is also the verse 4:34 which is often quoted by the orthodox as pronouncement of inferiority of women. It is in respect of such verses that the question of methodology of understanding the Qur’an arises. The Qur’an is committed to create a new ethics, a new liberated society transcending the given situation. The Qur’an describes the given situation as well as guides the faithful as to what ought to be. While the verse 4:34 is the narrative of what is in the society 33:35 is about what ought to be. It is unfortunate that the Muslim world by and large has not understood the significance of the verse 4:34.

The situation in the Muslim world reflects status quo rather than the liberative pronouncements of the Qur’an. Women do not enjoy the status the Qur’an has given them in Muslim society today. However, the status quo is also justified by quoting verses like 4:34 instead of verses like 33:35 which represents the transcendent spirit of the Qur’an. But men which include most of the eminent theologians of the Muslim world were unwilling to concede this transcendent status to women and hence they stuck to the status quo in society. Even during the holy Prophet’s time we find companions of the Prophet debating the issue of status of women.

The other proof that the Qur’an treats men and women equally is that it makes it obligatory of both to enforce what is good and prevent what is evil. It is not only men who are charged with this important task but all faithfuls, including women, are required to fulfil this obligation. It is only through fulfilment of this obligation that a society can be completely transformed and women are equally responsible for this transformative project. It is on this basis that eminent jurist like Imam Abu Hanifa opined that a woman can also become qadi.

The Qur’an also describes men and women as each other’s friends. Thus the Qur’an says, “And the believers, men ad women, are friends (awliya`) one of another. They enjoin good and forbid evil and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. As for these Allah will have mercy on them. One can easily see in this verse that both men and women have been given equal status and equal obligations and both will be equally be entitled to Allah’s mercy, if they fulfil their obligation and obey Allah and His Messenger. This verse is transformative in nature and is not mere narrative of what exists in the society. In evolving methodology of understanding the Qur’an such verses play very important role.

The Qur’an, in its all-normative pronouncements gives equal status to men and women. It is important to note that the Qur’an does not refer anywhere to creation of Eve (Hawwa) from the rib of the Adam, thus making her secondary to man. According to the Qur’an both man and woman have been created from nafsin wahidatin i.e. from one soul. Thus the Qur’an says, “O people, keep your duty to your Sustainer, Who created you from a single being and created its mate of the same (kind), and spread from these two many men and women. (emphasis added) (4:1)

This is quite an important pronouncement for equality of both the sexes. Both have been created from one nafs (soul, being, entity) and both are each others mates. It is important to note that the word for wife and husband in the Qur’an is zawja and zawj i.e. one of the couple which again is indicative of compete equality. There is no concept of husbanding in the Qur’an. Husband is zawj and wife is zawja, the faminine gender of zawj. There is no question of lording or husbanding over ones own mate. However, unfortunately the Muslims never adopted this culture of sexual equality. They relied more on hadith of doubtful authenticity rather than on clear and normative pronouncements of the holy Qur’an.

One cannot understand the real spirit of the Qur’an unless one understands its transformative spirit. It subverts the given and provides guidelines for what ought to be. It is precisely for this reason that the Qur’an, which is the main source of Islamic ethics lays so much emphasis on justice. Justice is very central to the Qur’anic ethics. Plato and his disciple are unable to reach any consensus on the exact concept of justice. In their society it was the concept of ‘might is right’ that seemed to work. But the Qur’anic concept of justice is just the opposite of this. The Qur’an maintains that justice be done even if it favours ones enemy or goes against ones closest relatives or against ones own self.

Thus the Qur’an uses two words for justice ‘adl and qist both implying balance in the system which is possible through justice. There are several verses in the Qur’an referring to justice. One is imperative: i`idalu (do justice it is closest to being pious,5:8). In another verse, also imperative, says, “Surely Allah enjoins justice and the doing of good (to others)…” (16:90). Yet another verse says, “O you who believe, be maintainers of justice, bearers of witness for Allah, even though it be against your own selves or (your) parents or near relatives – whether he be rich or poor, Allah has a better right over them both. So follow not (your) low desires, lest you deviate. And if you distort or turn away from (truth), surely Allah is ever aware what you do.” (4:135)

From these verses one can easily see how important it is to be just. It is very central to the Qur’anic ethics. However, the society is full of injustices of all kinds, be they distributive injustices or in the form of oppression and exploitation of the weak. Such social system as based on injustices cannot become stable. Oppression and exploitation or concentration of power in few hands will always lead to instability and conflict and conflict leads to violence. Such an unstable system generating causes for conflict is un-Qur’anic and un-Islamic. Justice is possible only when there is inner integrity of character and fearlessness. This fearlessness, in turn is possible only when one does not benefit from the status quo. All of us wink at injustices simply because we benefit from the established order.

Thus the Qur’an lays emphasis on the concept of i’man which, if one goes to the root meaning of the word, implies a feeling of inner security, inner contentedness. This inner contentedness and inner peace is possible if there is only fear of Allah and not fear of any worldly potentate. Worldly rulers are often oppressive, perpetrate injustices and hence are responsible for violence. Islam, which means establishment of peace, desires a social system free of violence by removing all forms of injustices from the world. Thus the Qur’an is basically subversive of all those systems based on injustice, exploitation and violence.

One who has faith in Qur’an can never tolerate any system which perpetrates injustices with the weaker sections of society. But the powerful vested interests resist such attempts to establish a just society with all their might and the result is violence. Thus when the Prophet of Islam and his companions tried to establish a just system and the unbelievers of Mecca, who were all rich traders, resisted this attempt and used violence to oppose with all vehemence to establish a just society through subversion of the powerful establishment.

Thus there is always tension in the society between those wanting to transform the society and those supporting the status quo. Transformation can hardly be peaceful. But it does not mean that violence is justified on the part of the oppressed. It is the oppressors who use violence. The Qur’an justifies violence only if it is defensive, not offensive. Jihad is nothing more than sincere efforts to promote good and banish evil, not to wage war for transformation. The concept of jihad is being grossly misused by some Muslims. In fact by using the slogan of jihad these Muslims are generating powerful resources to build powerful establishment – something totally anti-jihadic in spirit. Such cry for jihad is itself supportive of status quo. Real jihad is to establish a social system based on justice and free of all forms of exploitation.

Thus without developing such a methodology for understanding the Qur’an it will never be possible to practice Islamic ethics and morality. The Qur’an was revealed to the Messenger of Allah to subvert all those establishments based on exploitation and injustice and to establish a system humane, compassionate and sensitive to all forms of sufferings of humanity.

Unfortunately the powerful vested interests in the Muslim world are suing the Qur’an for reinforcing their own oppressive establishments through misinterpretations against which the Qur’an has clearly warned. Mutashabihati are overriding muhkamat. We must go back to muhkamat

verse on polygamy (4:3) is followed by the verse 4:1 which emphasises sexual equality in the words that ...”Lord Who created you from a single being (min nafsin wahidatin) and created its mate of the same (kind) and spread from these two many men and women...” and the verse 4:2 which talks of justice for orphans and widows. Then polygamy is permitted provided one marries with widows and orphans (and not any women) and there also justice with all wives is a must failing which one must marry only one. No one before had insisted on such conditionalities for plurality of wives. Thirdly, the verse 4:129 states that even if you desire you cannot do justice between wives and ends by saying that do not leave the one with total disinclination and incline towards the other leaving the first in suspense. If the verses 4:3 and 4:129 are read together polygamy is as good as not permissible

The other possible reason why the Quran is written in different styles could be due to the fact that material is taken from different books in the Jewish Scripture and the New Testament. The Jewish Scripture and the New Testament is written by several different people. Their narrative perspective is different as a result.

It is advisable to do a verse for verse cross reference of the Quran. Take verses from the Quran one by one and check for its origin in the Jewish Scripture and the New Testament. Mohammad admits that Allah gave the Psalms to David. Therefore the Psalms is a good place to begin cross referencing the Quran.

Victoria will recognize her posts-

"wikipedia is notoriously inaccurate k-
but the point is-
you are talking about what was in islam-

i am talking about what islam IS-

your concept of a triple mantra that magically dissolves a marriage is refuted by the muslim community worldwide-
in egypt several years back, there were some sheikhs arguing it was valid-
there was a worldwide consensus of muslim scholars that such an interpretation is quranically impossible.

you must have missed that memo.

it doesnt make me a liar, or patheitc or any other suc thing.

it simply makes you uninformed.

i dont se wikipedia as a study guide for my religion, or- well- anything at all." (1-23,10:17pm)

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2008/01/muslims_in_europe/all_comments.html

"Here is the Wikipedia definition of hate speech: “speech intended to DEGRADE, INTIMIDATE, or incite violence or PREJUDICIAL ACTION against a PERSON or GROUP of people based on their RACE, gender, age, ethnicity, nationality, RELIGION, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, language ability, moral or political views, socioeconomic class, occupation or appearance (such as height, weight, and hair color), mental capacity and any other distinction-liability.”

to say mr patel's analogy is not a valid one
doesnt hold water-" (1-25,12:42pm)

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2008/01/our_faith_talk_is_in_the_gutte/all_comments.html

You say you do not use wikipedia as a source and within days you are using wiki to validate a point. Your cause is lost everytime you post. How can anyone believe someone who is known to lie?

Sorry Vicky, I don't believe you. You are a LIAR in the EXTREME.

you are most welcome to spend your day searching for any lie i have been accused of-

i only post under my name-
if i make an anonymous post, it is by accident and i come back and correct it when i discover it.

i dont kow where someone has posted in your name, but i dont do that-
good luck with your search
peace to you richard ricardo-

OK I get it. Victoria got caught in a few lies on another string.

Good try, Vicky.

I'd like to know who posted a "supposed" response from me and used another posters name. The depth of lying on this board is unbelievable!

Hey -good lying- did Victoria do this? Very clever..

"so your rebuttal is another cut and paste from the same site you used before?"

Victoria- I'm thanking you for providing me with a link to a thorough critique of the FLAWS in the Qur'an.

I'm thankful for the natural tendency of TRUTH to be revealed and the serendipity that my meager few questions were worded close enough to Joseph Smith's that you provided a link to his superior site. There seems to be an almost miraculous wind blowing through the cosmos to dismantle lies and half-truths so that only TRUTH remains.

You might have tried to answer my small questions, but you did not. And your response to me revealed a multitude of greater questions and your propensity to lie.

Typical of Victoria to interpret any criticism of the Quran or Sharia Law as personal attack of Muslims! In her brainwashed mindset she doesn't get what the non-Muslims are really talking about.

so your rebuttal is another cut and paste from the same site you used before?

although you claimed they were your own original thoughts- you use that site again?

we all have opinions ricardo/richard-
i have my own-
you have yours (or someone elses which is fine also)

i dont agree with the opinion of the author as it is speculation-

so peace to you then- we can agree to disagree

sorry you dislike muslims so much- i dont want to add to your dislike by arguing.

Vicky, I went to the link you provided and

BELIEVE ME if I had knowm of the MANY errors in the Qur'an I'd have formed a more well rounded post to move forward the assumption that Islam is FLAWED and NOT PERFECT.

Vicky, what about "The Missing Verses"?

"This then brings up another difficult problem: how can we be sure that what Zaid ibn Thabit included in his codice (or manuscript) contained the full revelation of Muhammad's revelation? The fact is we simply cannot. We are forced to rely on Muslim tradition to tell us. Yet, interestingly, it is Muslim tradition which informs us that Zaid himself initially cast doubt on his own codice."

AND

"The Verse on Stoning"

"Muslims maintains that key passages were missing from Zaid's text. The most famous is the verse of stoning. All the major traditions speak of this missing verse. According to Ibn Ishaq's version (pg. 684) we read:

"God sent Muhammad, and sent down the scripture to him. Part of what he sent down was the passage on stoning. Umar says, 'We read it, we were taught it, and we heeded it. The apostle [Muhammad] stoned, and we stoned after him. I fear that in the time to come men will say that they find no mention of stoning in God's book, and thereby go astray in neglecting an ordinance which God has sent down. Verily, stoning in the book of God is a penalty laid on married men and women who commit adultery."

AND

"Errors Found Within the Qur'an"

"For centuries Muslims have been taught to believe that the Qur'an has been preserved in its original Arabic form since the beginning of time itself, and preserved intact from the period of the "sending down" of the book to Muhammad, right on down till the present. They have been taught that the text which we read now was uniquely inspired, in that there were no intermediary agents who could possibly pollute the integrity of the script.

At the same time they have also been taught that this suggested textual perfection of the book proves that the Qur'an must be the Word of God, as no one but Allah could have created and preserved such a perfected text. This sentiment has become so strongly established in the Muslim world that one will rarely find a Muslim scholar willing to make any critical analysis of its content or of its structure, as to do so would usually be detrimental to his or her health. However, when an analysis is made by a Western scholar upon the Qur'an, that analysis is roundly castigated as being biased from the outset, and even "satanic," and therefore, unworthy of a reply.

But that does not stop the analysis from being undertaken, for the Qur'an when held up to scrutiny finds itself lacking in many areas.

As we have already discussed, we find problems with its sources, its collation, its literary makeup, its supposed uniqueness, and problems even with its content. It is not difficult to find numerous contradictions within the Qur'an, a problem which Muslims and the Qur'an has attempted to alleviate by conveniently allowing for the 'law of abrogation.' But even more devastating towards the integrity of this supposed perfect 'divine book,' are the numerous errors which are found in its pages. It is therefore to those errors which we will now turn in our continuing quest to ascertain whether, indeed, the Qur'an can claim to be the true, and "perfect" Word of God, as Muslims have so often maintained since the very inception of their faith."

That's some JUICY stuff. You say your are born in America- so you will understand when I say-

Vicky, people who live in a GLASS HOUSE should NOT throw stones. You don't answer the many questions raised because you can't answer.

Any reader here who knows nothing of the Qur'an or Islam and are concerned about the increasing worldwide Muslim violence and discord should check out this long and informative site:

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9tc.htm

The Quran is supposed to be written in at least four different literary styles. Many different people are supposed to have written down what Mohammad recited. If Gabriel was speaking through Mohammad one would assume that a single style would be used as is the case in Scripture of other religions, each revelation following a single style. Only different authors write in different styles. The differences in style could reflect the different language skills of the writers who were employed by the politically powerful Mohammad and later by his politically powerful followers' court to put down the Quranic recitation in writing. Mohammad and his followers had all of Arabia at their political and religious disposal. That beautifully written Arabic emerged should not come as a surprise. The fact that there is no chronological or logical sequence to the verses and chapters in the Quran shows that the revelations were somewhat different to the way the Scripture is written in other religions. Clarity of thought, purpose and logical sequence can be assumed as a hallmark of God's revelation. Allah seems to be somewhat confused and seemed to change his mind at regular intervals or least Mohammad heard Allah somewhat wrong.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Hmm, sure is odd that you quote as being koranic inerrant from a reference with the conclusions noted above.

excerpt: " When we take a sober analysis of the sources of the Qur'an, we find conclusive evidence that the confidence of the Muslims for their scripture is simply unfounded."

hello richard-
well, i already posted it once, and the link twice-

heres from the link-

25. Lust is condemned in sura 79:40-41, yet in sura 4:24-25 Allah permits polygamy, divorce, and the use of female slaves as concubines (one needs to ask why a man needs a concubine if not to satisfy his lust).
Furthermore, for those who are faithful lust is the primary, and unlimited reward in heaven (suras 55:46-78; 56:11-39).
Surely if lust is wrong on earth and hateful to a Holy God, it cannot be pleasing to him in paradise.

26. On that same note, wine is forbidden while on earth (sura 5:91), yet rivers of wine await the faithful in paradise (suras 47:15; 76:5; 83:25)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

here is your post- with identical references in parentheses-

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lust is condemned in sura 79:40-41, yet in sura 4:24-25 Allah permits polygamy, divorce, and the use of female slaves as concubines (why does a man need a concubine if not to satisfy his lust?).

Also, for those who are faithful- lust is the primary and unlimited reward in heaven (suras 55:46-78; 56:11-39). Surely if lust is condemned on earth and hateful to Allah, how can it be allowed and encouraged in paradise?

Also, if wine is forbidden while on earth (sura 5:91), why do rivers of wine await the faithful in paradise? (suras 47:15; 76:5; 83:25)

January 21, 2008 5:15 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i already answered- but here you go once again-

79:40] As for the one who reverenced the majesty of his Lord, and enjoined the self from sinful lusts.
[79:41] Paradise will be the abode.

English (Yusuf Ali):
79:40 And for such as had entertained the fear of standing before their Lord's (tribunal) and had restrained (their) soul from lower desires,

the verses preceding and following this ayat dont say that lust is condemned.

this says that the reward of one who remebers and reveres ALLAH, and has restrained themselves from lower desires-sinful lusts- will be rewarded.

its the wine that does not make one lose ones senses- or dull ones perceptions that flows in paradise-

im starting to get the feeling you didnt really want answers but just posted rhetorical questions(in the sense of just wanting an excuse to posit your view without rebuttal)

ok then-
why would you call me vicky?

should i call you ricky?
are you trying to forge some rhyming bod or something-
call me mrs. a

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

The contemporary Joseph Smith as per your referenced study makes the following conclusions about Islam: http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9tc.htm

"In conclusion, while we can concede that the Qur'an is a fascinating book to study, it simply cannot maintain its status as the final Word of God it claims to be. The declaration of textual perfection by the Muslims simply do not stand up to any critical analysis of their content. As we have seen, the Qur'an carries numerous inconsistencies with the former scriptures, while its narratives and stories help to discredit its claim to be the true Word of God. Popular sentiment and unquestioning fanatical devotion by Muslims are simply not adequate as a proof for the Qur'an's authenticity. When we take a sober analysis of the sources of the Qur'an, we find conclusive evidence that the confidence of the Muslims for their scripture is simply unfounded.

It stands to reason that those whose responsibility it was to compile a "holy book" which could compete with the existing scriptures, would naturally turn to the myths and legends of the surrounding civilizations and borrow many of their stories. Due to the predominance of oral tradition in the 7th-9th centuries one can understand how many of the stories became embellished and distorted over time. It is these corrupted stories that we find all through the Qur'an, many of which were adapted from 2nd century Talmudic literature, which was popular amongst the Jews of that area. Consequently it is the glaring similarities which we find between the Qur'an and these errant sources which nullifies the claim that the Qur'an could hope to be the true Word of God. "

That looks a lot like:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

And a chapter on the Islamic required belief in "pretty thingies" called angels by some but "tinker bells" by most??

And a chapter about Islam being better known as the Religion of the Hallucinations???

And a chapter on the great plagiarizing of the ancients' codes and laws???

Hmmm, I see no chapters on "pretty wingie thingies" and the great hallucinations of one long-dead Arab.

Excellent link. Thank you, Victoria-

Anyone interested in reading a fascinating and thorough exposition of the Qur'an from a Christian/Western viewpoint should take a long look:

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9tc.htm

THE QUR'AN
Apologetic Paper (Joseph Smith) - May 1995

A. Introduction

B. The Authority of the Qur'an

C. The Revelation of the Qur'an

D. The Inspiration of the Qur'an

1. To prove Muhammad's call to prophet-hood

2. To give him authority to warn people

3. Three methods by which Allah communicates to his creation

a. By direct inspiration

b. From behind a veil

c. Through a messenger (the implication is that of an angelic being).

4) How Muhammed received his revelations

E. The Qur'an's Supposed Distinctive Qualities

1. Its Holiness

2. Its Superior Style

3. Its Literary Qualities

4. Its Pure Arabic

F. The Qur'an's Supposed Universal Qualities

1. The Inferiority of Women in the Qur'an

2. The "Sword" found in the Qur'an

G. The Collation, or Collection of the Qur'anic Text

1. The Periods of Revelation

2. The Method of Collection

i. Zaid's Collection

ii. Competing Collections

3. The Standardisation of One Text

4. The Missing Verses

i.Sura 33:23

ii.The Verse on Stoning

5. The Variations Between the Codices

i. Abdullah ibn Mas'ud's Codex

ii. Ubayy Ka'b's Codex

6. Conclusions on the Collation of the Qur'anic Text

H. The Abrogation of Qur'anic Verses

I. Errors Found Within the Qur'an

1. Contradictions With the Bible Which Point to Errors:

i. Moses

ii. Yahya

iii. Trinity

iv. Ezra

2. Internal Contradictions Which Point to Errors

i. Mary & Imran

ii. Haman

3. Errors Which Contradict Secular and Scientific Data

i. Ishmael

ii. Samaritan

iii. Sunset

iv. Issa v. Mountains

vi. Alexander the Great

vii. Creation

viii. Pharaoh's Cross

ix. Other Scientific problems

4. Absurdities

i. Man's Greatness

ii. Seven Earths

iii. Jinns & Shooting Stars

iv. Solomon's power over nature

v. Youth and dog sleep 309 years

vi. People become apes

vii. Sodom & Gomorrah turned upside-down

viii. Jacob's smell & sight

ix. Night/Day/Sun/Moon are subject to man

5. Grammatical Errors

J. The Sources of the Qur'an

1. Stories Which Correspond With Biblical Accounts

i. Satan's Refusal to Worship Adam

ii. Cain and Abel

iii. Abraham

iv. Mt Sanai

v. Solomon and Sheba

vi. Mary, Imran and Zachariah

vii. Jesus's Birth

viii. Heaven and Hell

2. Stories Which do not Correspond with the Biblical Account

i. Harut and Marut

ii. The Cave of 7 Sleepers

iii. The Sirat

K. Conclusion

L. References

Word for Word?

REALLY VICKY?

Then get on your knees because a miracle has happened right here on the wapo faith boards.

I've never been to your link and I don't have time to look -so please do a cut and paste so we can check for accuracy (not that I'm doubting your "word 4 word" dontchaknow..)

And exactly who was that channeling through me?

Golly Gee -why not be like others and just try answering the questions I (we) posed?

And from the fruit of the date-palm and the VINE,you get out STRONG DRINK and wholesome food,behold,in this also is a sign for those who are wise.16.67

How can they interpret this verse.

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9d.htm

in case you doubt it- heres the link yet again

sorry richard- that was victoria -
i mistakenly forgot to put my name, and just went into answering.

richard- it IS a cut and paste-
its from a paper by joseph smith in 1995 which i linked-

its not your own construction, its word for word

you dont have to get personal or upset-

the answer was given to you-

i always give the respect of looking at links of people given them

it wasnt an accusation, but an observation based upon your cut and paste from the link-

here it is-
its number 25-
25. Lust is condemned in sura 79:40-41, yet in sura 4:24-25 Allah permits polygamy, divorce, and the use of female slaves as concubines (one needs to ask why a man needs a concubine if not to satisfy his lust). Furthermore, for those who are faithful lust is the primary, and unlimited reward in heaven (suras 55:46-78; 56:11-39). Surely if lust is wrong on earth and hateful to a Holy God, it cannot be pleasing to him in paradise.

26. On that same note, wine is forbidden while on earth (sura 5:91), yet rivers of wine await the faithful in paradise (suras 47:15; 76:5; 83:25)

so, there you go-
you have the answers-

lets assume that they BECAME your questions-

you have your answer

MOODY =a fitting and appropriate name..

richard:

And every body can see your ability, here shown by YOU!!!!

Anonymous

WHO ARE YOU?

The questions I ask have been asked and discussed for many many years. If you have no answer.. why falsely accuse me of "cut and paste".

What is going on with making accusations? Muslims posting to this board seem unable to enter into discussion?

Anonymous-- stay that way..

Oh "Obfusing" Jihadist,

Ahh, yes indeed I do copy and paste but my copy is flawless plus we are counteracting the koran and bible thumping during the last 2000 years. We will therefore be counterthumping for awhile unless you and those like you finally see the light about the historic Mo and his copy and pasting scribes.

79:40] As for the one who reverenced the majesty of his Lord, and enjoined the self from sinful lusts.
[79:41] Paradise will be the abode.

English (Yusuf Ali):
79:40 And for such as had entertained the fear of standing before their Lord's (tribunal) and had restrained (their) soul from lower desires,

the verses preceding and following this ayat dont say that lust is condemned.

this says that the reward of one who remebers and reveres ALLAH, and has restrained themselves from lower desires-sinful lusts- will be rewarded.

you took this straight off the pages of joseph smiths apologetics-

since its a cut and paste of anothers thoughts- and not your own process- its unlikely youll be satisfied with any answer until you think abou it to begin with-

its the wne that does not make one lose ones senses- or dull ones perceptions that flows in paradise-

but that is as much effort imputting inot a non-question

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9d.htm

Concerned, Concerned, Concerned!!!!!
You copy and paste a lot yourself!

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

If you "deflawed" your book of hallucinations and plagiarisms, you would have a lot less to copy and paste.

HERE'S MORE QUESTIONS-

Lust is condemned in sura 79:40-41, yet in sura 4:24-25 Allah permits polygamy, divorce, and the use of female slaves as concubines (why does a man need a concubine if not to satisfy his lust?).

Also, for those who are faithful- lust is the primary and unlimited reward in heaven (suras 55:46-78; 56:11-39). Surely if lust is condemned on earth and hateful to Allah, how can it be allowed and encouraged in paradise?

Also, if wine is forbidden while on earth (sura 5:91), why do rivers of wine await the faithful in paradise? (suras 47:15; 76:5; 83:25)

actually your desription of marrige is almost exactly what is said at marriage ceremonies for christians-

infidel- your statement-
"Sexual desire that is not appropriate is referred to as lust"

lust can certainly be inappropriately targeted-
but it can also be quite appropriately focused on ones marriage partner-

here is actually what lust means-

LUST

–noun 1. intense sexual desire or appetite.
2. uncontrolled or illicit sexual desire or appetite; lecherousness.
3. a passionate or overmastering desire or craving (usually fol. by for): a lust for power.
4. ardent enthusiasm; zest; relish: an enviable lust for life.
5. Obsolete. a. pleasure or delight.
b. desire; inclination; wish.

–verb (used without object) 6. to have intense sexual desire.
7. to have a yearning or desire; have a strong or excessive craving (often fol. by for or after).

so, in illicit affairs, lust can be a definition.
however, one can also have a deep yearning, enthusiasm, zest,passionate desire,intense appetite for ones husband or wife.

my statement-
"perhaps you can give an example of a virtue carried to an extreme which becomes a vice-
however- youre forgetting that in islam, MODERATION is applied to every aspect of life-

what youve described is simply immoderate behavior-

to spend all of ones energies (by rituals i assume you mena the 5 daily prayers) on one activity while ignoring ones resposibilities to ones family, community, even oneself! is disallowed.

It was reported from al-Hasan that ‘Ubayd-Allaah ibn Ziyaad visited Ma’qil ibn Yassaar during his final illness. Ma’qil said to him, I will tell you a hadeeth which I heard from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say:

“There is no person to whom Allaah has given people to take care of, and he fails to take care of them properly, but he will not smell the fragrance of Paradise.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6731; Muslim, 142)

‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar said: the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Each of you is a shepherd and each of you will be questioned [about those under his care]. The leader is a shepherd and will be questioned. A man is the shepherd of his family and will be questioned. A woman is the shepherd of her husband’s house and she will be questioned. A slave is the shepherd of his master’s wealth and will be questioned. Each of you is a shepherd and each of you will be questioned [about those under his care].” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4892; Muslim, 1829).

In the case of some acts of worship, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us not to go beyond what is prescribed in sharee’ah, for fear that the rights of others – above all the family – may be affected because of that. A number of ahaadeeth were narrated concerning this matter, such as:

‘Awn ibn Abi Juhayfah narrated that his father said: the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) established brotherhood (mu’aakhah) between Salmaan and Abu’l-Dardaa’. Salmaan visited Abu’l-Dardaa’ and noticed that Umm al-Dardaa’ appeared scruffy and unkempt (this was before the aayah of hijaab was revealed). He said to her, What is the matter with you? She said, Your brother Abu’l-Dardaa’ has no need of this world. Then Abu’l-Dardaa’ came (to visit him). He made some food for him, and said, Eat. [Abu’l-Dardaa’] said, I am fasting. [Salmaan] said, I will not eat until you eat. So he ate. When night came, Abu’l-Dardaa’ went to pray qiyaam, but [Salmaan] said to him, Sleep, so he slept. Then he wanted to get up for qiyaam, but [Salmaan] said, Sleep. When the last part of the night came, Salmaan said, Now get up. So they prayed, then Salmaan said to him, Your Lord has a right over you, your soul has a right over you and your wife has a right over you, so give each one his due. He [Abu’l-Dardaa’] went to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and told him about that. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Salmaan is right.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1867).

‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas (may Allaah be pleased with them both) said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to me, “O ‘Abd-Allaah, have I not heard that you fast all day and pray all night?” I said, yes, O Messenger of Allaah. He said, “Do not do that. Fast and break your fast, pray qiyaam and sleep, for your body has a right over you, your eyes have a right over you, your wife has a right over you and your visitors have a right over you. It is sufficient for you to fast three days of every month. For every good deed (hasanah) you will be rewarded tenfold, so that will be like fasting for an entire lifetime.” But I went to extremes and made things hard for myself. I said, O Messenger of Allaah, I can do more than that. He said, “Then observe the fast of the Prophet of Allaah, Dawood (peace be upon him), and no more.” I said, What is the fast of the Prophet of Allaah, Dawood (peace be upon him)? He said, “Half a lifetime.” After he grew old, ‘Abd-Allaah used to say, I wish that I had taken the easier option which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) offered me. (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1874; Muslim, 1159).

In these ahaadeeth you can see how the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) advised moderation in fasting, praying qiyaam and reading Qur’aan – for those who were doing a lot and neglecting their families’ rights. He was drawing attention to the rights of others, including wives and families.

since you requested QURAN- here is some

This ummah is the nation of moderation and balance, so everyone who belongs to this ummah must be like that in all areas of his life.

At the same time as we are hearing of some Muslims who spend most of their time away from their families – whether for da’wah or for travelling or some other permissible purpose – we are also hearing of the opposite, where some people stay with their families all the time and never devote any time to calling others to Allaah.

Just as a man’s family has rights over him that he should not neglect, other people, Muslims and non-Muslims – also have rights over him which he should not ignore..

It was reported from al-Hasan that ‘Ubayd-Allaah ibn Ziyaad visited Ma’qil ibn Yassaar during his final illness. Ma’qil said to him, I will tell you a hadeeth which I heard from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say:

“There is no person to whom Allaah has given people to take care of, and he fails to take care of them properly, but he will not smell the fragrance of Paradise.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6731; Muslim, 142)

‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar said: the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Each of you is a shepherd and each of you will be questioned [about those under his care]. The leader is a shepherd and will be questioned. A man is the shepherd of his family and will be questioned. A woman is the shepherd of her husband’s house and she will be questioned. A slave is the shepherd of his master’s wealth and will be questioned. Each of you is a shepherd and each of you will be questioned [about those under his care].” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4892; Muslim, 1829).

In the case of some acts of worship, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us not to go beyond what is prescribed in sharee’ah, for fear that the rights of others – above all the family – may be affected because of that. A number of ahaadeeth were narrated concerning this matter, such as:

‘Awn ibn Abi Juhayfah narrated that his father said: the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) established brotherhood (mu’aakhah) between Salmaan and Abu’l-Dardaa’. Salmaan visited Abu’l-Dardaa’ and noticed that Umm al-Dardaa’ appeared scruffy and unkempt (this was before the aayah of hijaab was revealed). He said to her, What is the matter with you? She said, Your brother Abu’l-Dardaa’ has no need of this world. Then Abu’l-Dardaa’ came (to visit him). He made some food for him, and said, Eat. [Abu’l-Dardaa’] said, I am fasting. [Salmaan] said, I will not eat until you eat. So he ate. When night came, Abu’l-Dardaa’ went to pray qiyaam, but [Salmaan] said to him, Sleep, so he slept. Then he wanted to get up for qiyaam, but [Salmaan] said, Sleep. When the last part of the night came, Salmaan said, Now get up. So they prayed, then Salmaan said to him, Your Lord has a right over you, your soul has a right over you and your wife has a right over you, so give each one his due. He [Abu’l-Dardaa’] went to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and told him about that. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Salmaan is right.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1867).

‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas (may Allaah be pleased with them both) said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to me, “O ‘Abd-Allaah, have I not heard that you fast all day and pray all night?” I said, yes, O Messenger of Allaah. He said, “Do not do that. Fast and break your fast, pray qiyaam and sleep, for your body has a right over you, your eyes have a right over you, your wife has a right over you and your visitors have a right over you. It is sufficient for you to fast three days of every month. For every good deed (hasanah) you will be rewarded tenfold, so that will be like fasting for an entire lifetime.” But I went to extremes and made things hard for myself. I said, O Messenger of Allaah, I can do more than that. He said, “Then observe the fast of the Prophet of Allaah, Dawood (peace be upon him), and no more.” I said, What is the fast of the Prophet of Allaah, Dawood (peace be upon him)? He said, “Half a lifetime.” After he grew old, ‘Abd-Allaah used to say, I wish that I had taken the easier option which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) offered me. (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1874; Muslim, 1159).

QURANIC VERSE

. As Allah says in Surah Al-Baqarah 2 Ayat 143: “Thus have We made of you an Ummah justly balanced…. .”

Eat and drink, not in excess but in moderation and do not waste [7:31]

Do not spend unnecessarily, nor devour, eat away or waste away Allah's bounties. Allah does not approve of the extravagant or the wasteful [6:141]

[Surely those will attain a good recompense] who , when they spend, are neither extravagant nor niggardly, but hold a medium way between these two extremes [25:67]

Do not be extravagant in dissipating or squandering wealth or property in a way that is not right or on objects that are vain [17:26]

“We sent the Messengers with clear signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance so that the people stand by justice” (57:52).

They should exercise self-control (maintain their composure) and not get enraged easily: (3:133)

(31:19) "Soft talking and moderation in walk (gait) are the symbols of trustworthiness and solemnity

'God desires ease for you, and desires not hardship' (2:185);

'Truly with hardship comes ease' (94: 6);
'God will assuredly appoint, after difficulty; easiness' (65:7);

'Whoso fears God, God will appoint for him, of His command, easiness' (65:4);

'We shall speak to him, of our command, easiness' (18:88);

'God desires to lighten things for you, for the human being has been created weak' (94:28).

'As to monasticism which they themselves invented, We did not prescribe any of it for them' (57: 27)
was revealed, the Prophet Muhammad commented: 'Do not overburden yourselves, lest you perish. People [before you] overburdened themselves and perished. Their remains are found in hermitages and monasteries' (Musnad of Abu Ya'la).

'But give good news to those who are patient, who, when a calamity strikes them, say:

'Indeed we belong to God and indeed to Him we shall be returning: They are those on whom are blessings from their Sustainer, and mercy-and those, they are the rightly-guided. (2: 155-157).

THERE YOU GO- I GUESS THATS ENOUG FOR NOW

"sexual need fulfilled in a marital relationship with a partner one loves, has made a long term committment to , has agreed to remain together for better or worse, in sickness and health, until death does the partners part, does not constitute lust."

Well said, Infidel. For many Xtian believers, the marital relationship is holy- a sacrament.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/marcus_borg/2007/02/perhaps_for_the_same_reason.html

Victoria,

Being faithful to religious rituals and prayer and ignoring one's duty towards one's family, community etc is an example of a virtue that practised to the extreme becomes a vice.

Please quote the Quranic verse which states that moderation is the ideal in Islam. You are quoting from other religions - as usual!

Sexual desire that is not appropriate is referred to as lust. Lust is gratification of the flesh without responsibility and committment. But the legitimate sexual need fulfilled in a marital relationship with a partner one loves, has made a long term committment to , has agreed to remain together for better or worse, in sickness and health, until death does the partners apart, does not constitute lust.

The Problem: People still believe the myths and embellishments of the long dead Arab aka Mohammed who historically was a warmongering, illiterate, lusting, greed driven, hallucinating "nut job".

Bottom line: Until the his book of death aka the koran is "Deflawed", no one is safe!!!!!!

Violence fear over Islam film

Counter-terrorism alert as a Dutch right-winger launches a movie that will denounce the Koran

Jason Burke, Europe editor
Sunday January 20, 2008
The Observer

The Dutch government is bracing itself for violent protests following the scheduled broadcast this week of a provocative anti-Muslim film by a radical right-wing politician who has threatened to broadcast images of the Koran being torn up and otherwise desecrated.
Cabinet ministers and officials, fearing a repetition of the crisis sparked by the publication of cartoons of Muhammad in a Danish newspaper two years ago, have held a series of crisis meetings and ordered counter-terrorist services to draw up security plans. Dutch nationals overseas have been asked to register with their embassies and local mayors in the Netherlands have been put on standby.

Geert Wilders, one of nine members of the extremist VVD (Freedom) party in the 150-seat Dutch lower house, has promised that his film will be broadcast - on television or on the internet - whatever the pressure may be. It will, he claims, reveal the Koran as 'source of inspiration for intolerance, murder and terror'.

Dutch diplomats are already trying to pre-empt international reaction. 'It is difficult to anticipate the content of the film, but freedom of expression doesn't mean the right to offend,' said Maxime Verhagen, the Foreign Minister, who was in Madrid to attend the Alliance of Civilisations, an international forum aimed at reducing tensions between the Islamic world and the West. In Amsterdam, Rotterdam and other towns with large Muslim populations, imams say they have needed to 'calm down' growing anger in their communities.

Government officials hope that no mainstream media organisation will agree to show the film, although one publicly funded channel, Nova, initially agreed before pulling out. 'A broadcast on a public channel could imply that the government supported the project,' said an Interior Ministry spokesman.

Demonstrations are also expected from those opposed to Wilders beyond Holland's Muslim community - a number of left-wing activists have already been arrested - and from his supporters. Members of a group calling itself Stop Islamisation of Europe are planning to travel to Amsterdam. 'Geert Wilders is an elected politician who has made a film, and that he is under armed guard as a result is absolutely outrageous,' said Stephen Gash, a UK-based member, yesterday. 'It is all about free speech.'

In November 2004, anger and violence followed the stabbing and shooting by a Dutch teenager of Moroccan parentage of the controversial film-maker Theo Van Gogh, a distant relative of the artist.

The attacker said the killing was in response to a film about Islam and domestic violence that Van Gogh had made with the Somalian-born activist Ayaan Hirsi Ali, then an MP, which showed images of naked veiled women with lines from the Koran projected over them.

From her self-imposed exile in Washington, Hirsi Ali last week criticised the new film as 'provocation' and called on the major Dutch political parties to restart a debate on immigration that has split Dutch society in recent years, rather than leave the field to extremists.

Wilders announced his plans last November, saying he was making a film to show the violent and fascist elements of the Muslim faith. The maverick politician's remarks about Islam have become increasingly radical. In February last year he said that if Muslims wanted to stay in the Netherlands, they should tear out half of the Koran and throw it away. In parliament he then called for the Koran and Hitler's Mein Kampf to be banned, a proposal that was rejected.

Job Cohen, the left-wing mayor of Amsterdam, echoed Hirsi Ali's words and called for a debate 'so that the moderates can make themselves heard'.

During a visit to the European Parliament in Strasbourg last week, Ahmad Badr al-Din Hassoun, the Grand Mufti of Syria, said that, were Wilders was seen to tear up or burn a Koran in his film, 'this will simply mean he is inciting wars and bloodshed ... It is the responsibility of the Dutch people to stop him.

Today the western world looks upon Islam as a hostile religion and Prof. Huntington even made out a case for clash of western and Islamic civilisations. All this after years of de-colonisation and acceptance by western powers of pluralism. The hostility against Islam continues to be a determining factor in western politics. The western scholars too continue to attack Islam and Muslims. If there is no democracy in Islamic countries they blame Islam for this, not the dictators and irony of it is that presidents of USA remain very friendly with these dictators except the ones who do not bow down before America like Saddam Hussain or Ghaddafi or President of Syria.

Mrs. Anie Besant, a theosophist and freedom lover and founder of Theosophist Society of India in nineteenth century India, when India was still a colony of Britain, had much appreciative view of Islam. It is because these politicians view Islam from their political interests rather than as a religion.

The Danish cartoonists have shown total insensitive to religious feelings. For them hurting religious sentiments is also a part of freedom of press. These cartoons are extremely offensive as they make fun of the Prophet of Islam rather than any Muslim politician as if the Prophet was responsible for all that Osama bin Laden or his followers in Al-Qaeda have been doing. Whose fun do we make? One who is dead 1400 years ago and has nothing to do with contemporary developments in the world of Islam?

On the contrary Mrs. Annie Besant who lived in nineteenth century when there was no democracy and much more prejudice among orientalists against Islam, writes with so much sympathy and understanding abut Islam. I will share some of the observations of Annie Besant on Islam with my readers so that they can understand the difference between those scholars and journalists who write with prejudice and those who write with understanding.

Mrs. Besant writes in the foreword of the booklet, which is very essential to understand a religion: "an attempt is made to distinguish the essential from no-essential in each religion, and to treat chiefly the former. For every religion, in the course of time, suffers from accretions due to ignorance, to wisdom; to blindness, not to vision." Then she continues, "within the brief compass of a lecture, it was not possible to distinguish in detail, or to point out all the numerous on-essentials. But the following tests may be used by anyone who desires to guide himself practically in discriminating between the permanent and the transitory elements in any religion."

Her tests are as follows: "Is it ancient? Is it to be found in ancient scriptures? Has it the authority of the founder of the religion, or the sages to whom the formulation of the particular religion is due? Is it universal, found under some form in all religions? As regards spiritual truths, any one of these tests is sufficient."

Generally these later accretions Annie Besant refers to, become more important than the universal spiritual truths of any religion. These accretions are derived from local cultures, customs and traditions and hence for people of that area, becomes more fundamental that original scriptural pronouncements. Then there are political needs and arrogance of power, which distorts essential truths and real spirit of that religion. Religion of the ruling class is the political power and it is political power, which determines its contours rather than religion determining the contours and legitimacy of power.

Most of the scholars and journalists have no such basic vision and whatever they see being practiced, take it as the real core of religion and than either start criticising or even ridiculing it. Mrs. Annie Besant, on the other hand, tries to comprehend the essential spiritual truth of Islam, or for that matter of any religion.

Mrs. Besant, in order to understand religion of Islam, tries to first understand he biographical background of the Prophet. After describing his birth, his becoming orphan at a tender age, she continues, " Twenty -four years passed. He has been trading on behalf of a kinswoman, Khadija, far older than himself. She finds him so faithful, so frugal, so trustworthy, that they become man and wife - Muhammad not yet the Prophet, Khadija not yet the first disciple. Young man and older woman they are, but they live together so happily that their union remains one of the ideal marriages of the world, until she leaves him a widower at fifty years of age after twenty-six years of blessed married life."

She describes the Prophet as kind man leading a quiet outward life but engaged in terrible inward struggle, not satisfied with what he sees around him, poverty, slavery, suffering of the weaker sections of society. His wise counsels are forever for the poor and the distressed. He always keeps his word and is known as al-ameen, the trustworthy, surely the most honourable title a man can win.

As for his prophethood, Annie Besant describes it as follows: "Thus the years pass - years of struggle that few can measure and then on one night of nights as he lies there on the ground in his agony, a light from heaven shines around him, and a glorious form stands before him: 'Rise, thou art the Prophet of God; go forth and cry in the name of thy Lord.' 'What shall I cry?' 'Cry,' the angel says; and then he teaches him how the worlds were made, and how man was created. He teaches him of the unity of God, and the mystery of angles. He tells him of the work that lies before him. He, the most solitary of men, is to go forth and cry in the name of his Lord."

This story of the prophet is known to most of the Muslims but what is important is how sympathetically Mrs. Annie Besant, a Christian herself, narrates it with great sympathy and understanding. She perfectly understands the inner spiritual struggle, which the Prophet had to undergo before attaining prophet hood. All those who are not satisfied with the given society and its condition undergo such inner struggle before in their quest for the truth. The Prophet also underwent such inner spiritual struggle and spent days and days in the cave of Hira reflecting over the spiritual and material condition of Meccan society and it was in this cave that Truth was revealed to him, as Muslims believe, through Archangel Jibraeel.

The Prophet (PBUH), on being revealed this truth proclaims it to his fellow humans in Mecca. Mrs. Besant observes, "Among the many creeds of man there is none that is more earnestly believed, more passionately followed, than that spoken by the mouth of the Arabian Prophet and if the proof of belief be in conduct, then watch his followers and see how his word rules still the actions of their lives."

Mrs. Besant thinks that if a person has disciples from among his near and dear ones, that is the best proof of his sincerity and truthfulness as who knows a person from close quarters than his wife or sons or parents or daughters. Thus Mrs. Besant observes, The Prophet's first disciple was his wife, his next disciples were is nearest relatives. That says something about the man. It is easy to gain disciples from among those who do not know you, who see you only on the platform, who hear you only in a set speech. But to a Prophet to your close relatives is to be a prophet indeed."

Another genuine test of the truth of a great soul is how people not only love him but are ready to sacrifice everything including their lives for the sake of that truth. Without genuine conviction about the truth of the message no will stand utmost tortures and all conceivable troubles and even court death for its sake. The Prophet of Islam and the truth proclaimed by him won hearts and souls of his followers who were ready to face all troubles to protect and promote brought by him.

Mrs. Besant thus observes, " Some more gather round him, touched by his inspired words. But now fierce persecution breaks out, and his followers are called upon to endure terrible torture. His followers are torn to pieces; they are thrust through with stakes; they are exposed on the burning sand with faces upturned to the Arabian sun and with heavy rocks upon their chests; they are bidden to deny God and his Prophet; but they die murmuring: There is but one God and Muhammad is his Prophet.'

The people would not bear all such tortures without strong conviction in the truth of the message of Prophet. A pretender, a man of selfishness and violence to achieve his self designated goals as many western scholars project Muhammad to be, can never inspire ones followers to stand such unimaginable hardships. Only when one finds the message genuine, one will bear such unprecedented hardships.

The chiefs of Mecca even conspired to kill the Prophet but he manages to escape through the window of his small house and his cousin Ali, is ready to sacrifice himself by sleeping in his bed. The Prophet and his companion Abu Bakr, who chooses to accompany the Prophet (PBUH), are pursued and price is put on the head of the Prophet. The enemy does not remain silent. It pursues the Prophet and engages him and his followers at the battle of Badr. Prophet's own band is small while enemy is in much larger number and overawing indeed. They thus confront each other in the battle of Badr. It is not the Prophet who chooses to inflict war, it is enemy who is keen to defeat the prophet once and for all. Prophet wants peace but is forced into war. A small band of truth seekers vis-�-vis a mighty horde of enemy bent upon protecting its powerful interests. They clash - truth with interests and Mrs. Besant continues: The Prophet cries, 'O Lord! If this little band were to perish, there will be none to offer unto Thee pure worship.'

"This is Muhammad's first bloodshed", observes Mrs. Besant and proceeds, 'repelling an attack. He had ever been tender, compassionate, 'the womanish', as his enemies called him. But now he is no longer a private individual free to forgive all wrongs done to himself; he is ruler of a State, the general of an army, with duties to his followers who trust him. The days are coming when crimes that as a man he would have forgiven, as a ruler he must punish, and Muhammad the Prophet is no weak sentimentalist."

Though Mrs. Beasant is defending the Prophet as a head of the State, if one reads the Qur'an, the moral dimension cannot be lost sight of. The Qur'an repeatedly asserts Allah is Forgiving, Allah is Compassionate and Allah is benevolent. Thus throughout Qur'an one finds a palpable tension between the real and moral, political and ethical. Qur'an always gives precedence to moral over real and provides a transcendent vision. Transcendence is most fundamental to Qur'an and Qur'anic ethics.

Thus Mrs. Besant points out that "After the victory of Badr only two men were executed and, contrary to Arab usage, the prisoners were, by the Prophet's order treated with the greatest kindness, the Muslims giving them bread and keeping only dates for themselves."

Thus as far as the Prophet (PBUH) is concerned he was very kind and compassionate to the suffering of others. He is described by the Qur'an also as Rahmat lil 'Alamin i.e. Mercy of the worlds. However, there was violence everywhere in Arabia. It was way of life. One tribe attacking the other and killing in revenge (qisas) was considered normal. It was the Qur'an which portrayed Allah as Merciful and Compassionate and made 'afw (pardon) as morally superior to qisas (revenge)

The Prophet was so sensitive to suffering that even at the time of his death he asks his followers to pardon him if he has done anything wrong to them or to take qisas for that. Thus Annie Besant says, "And so things went on for ten years, and ten comes the end. And when prayers were over, they lift him up in the mosque, too weak to stand, Ali and Fazl on either side to hold him up, and he raises his feeble voice and cries: 'Muslims! If I have wronged any one of you, here I am to answer for it; if I owe aught to anyone, all I may happened to possess belongs to you.' One man says that he owes him three Dirhams and the coins are paid, the last debt to be discharged on earth."

Then Annie Besant comments (on the death of the prophet) "A noble life, a marvellous life; verily a Prophet of the Lord. And yet so simple, frugal, humble, patching his own worn out cloak, mending his own shoes, when thousands were bowing to him as Prophet - and gentle all around. 'Ten years', said Anas his servant, 'was I about the prophet, and he never said so much as "uff" to me.'"

Can we then portray the Prophet a "terrorist" as the Danish cartoonist did in the name of freedom of opinion and press? Does it show ignorance or prejudice or both? It is unfortunate that entire west today is reproducing these offensive cartoons and justifying them in the name of freedom of press. It is not only the question of freedom but also of proper knowledge about a person you portray. Where is the conscience where there is no knowledge?

Anie Beasant also defends the Prophet against charges of needless violence and slaying of kafirs. She writes, "But, they say, he preached war and extermination, and brutal bloody slaying of the unbeliever. It has ever been held, and laid down by Muslim legislators that when there are two commands, one of which is absolute, such as: 'Slay the infidel when he attacks you and will not let you practise your religion', that the condition, the limitation, is to be added to every such absolute command. This ruling is borne out over and over again by the practice of the Prophet. Concerning the infidel he says: 'that if they desist from opposing thee, what is already past shall be forgiven them; but if they return to attack thee, the exemplary punishment of the former opposers of the Prophets is already past, and the like shall be inflicted on them. Therefore fight against them, until there be no opposition in favour of idolatry, and the religion be wholly God's. If they desist, verily God seeth which they do; but if they turn back, know that God is your patron; he is the best patron and the best helper."

She also quotes an important verse from the Qur'an from chapter 17 'invite men unto the way of thy Lord, by wisdom and mild exhortation; and dispute with them in the most condescending manner, for thy Lord well knoweth him who strayed from his path, and he well knoweth those who are rightly directed. If ye take vengeance on any, take a vengeance proportional to the wrong which hath been done to you; but if ye suffer wrong patiently, verily this will be better for the patient. Wherefore do thou bear opposition with patience, but thy patience shall not be practicable unless with God's assistance. And be not thou grieved on account of the unbelievers; neither be thou troubled for that which they subtly devise; for God is with those who fear him and are upright."

Mrs. Besant has quoted an important verse, which summarises Qur'anic ethics. If one takes revenge, if should be proportional to the wrong inflicted and if one bears with patience (instead of taking revenge) it is always better and patience can be observed only with the help of God. Here we see that Qur'an permits revenge only as a matter of given reality but provides a transcendent dimension by asserting significance of patience (sabr). Sabr is a superior quality to revenge. Thus sabr is always preferable but if one wishes to take revenge it should be strictly proportional to the injury inflicted, not more. Thus the Qur'an makes us aware of superiority of oral over real.

However, if some Muslim violates the Qur'anic injunction and resort to violence out of all proportion to real, it is these Muslims to be blamed not the Qur'anic teachings. But the ignorant or those bearing malice towards other religion, will express opinion not based on real teachings of that religion but on the conduct of some of its followers and that too in the name of freedom of _expression. Freedom of _expression is by all means fundamental, even sacred, but has to be exercised with utmost sense of responsibility. There is no freedom without responsibility.

Mrs. Annie Besant held the Prophet of Islam in very high esteem and was well informed about the Prophet and his teachings. Throwing light on the conduct of the Prophet (PBUH) she says, "And look at his own conduct as illustrating his teaching. Never a wrong done him that he did not forgive; never an injury that he was not ready to pardon. There are faults in every faith; there are errors in the practice of all men. Ignorant followers often act wrongly, where prophets speak the truth. Judge a religion by its noblest, not by its worst, then we shall learn to love one another as brothers, and not hate one another as bigots and as fanatics."

If only we could follow this advice of Annie Besant, world will be very different. The Danish cartoonists created worldwide problem because they kept the worst examples of few Muslims before them totally ignoring what is the best in Islamic teachings. Freedom of _expression does not always mean writing or drawing anything expressing ones worst prejudices in its name. Many hate campaigners do precisely this. And even then they want to defend their right to freedom.

Throwing light on the teachings of the Qur'an, she observes quoting the verse from chapter 5, 'Who is better in point of religion than he who resigneth himself unto God, and is a worker of righteousness, and followeth the law of Abraham for the orthodox? Since God took Abraham for his friend."

She then says, "In that sense only is Islam the one religion; all men of every faith who surrender themselves to God are truly children of Islam. It is not the fault of the Prophet if his followers have narrowed it in later days. I appeal to the Prophet against his followers; as I have often appealed to the Christ against the Christians, and to the rishi-s against the modern Hindus."

It is important to note that when we dispute with each other we are guided by human ego rather than divine light and higher purpose. Those who understand and have knowledge will never quarrel on inter-faith differences. They will, on the other hand, live with these differences with proper understanding as human beings and leave it to God to finally judge who is right and who is wrong. What is wrong is due to human ego and what is right is due to divine light and higher purpose in life. That should be our approach to inter-faith problems.

Annie Besant is not a Muslim but has truly understood the essence of Qur'an and Islam, more than many Muslims do.

Violence fear over Islam film

Counter-terrorism alert as a Dutch right-winger launches a movie that will denounce the Koran

Jason Burke, Europe editor
Sunday January 20, 2008
The Observer

The Dutch government is bracing itself for violent protests following the scheduled broadcast this week of a provocative anti-Muslim film by a radical right-wing politician who has threatened to broadcast images of the Koran being torn up and otherwise desecrated.
Cabinet ministers and officials, fearing a repetition of the crisis sparked by the publication of cartoons of Muhammad in a Danish newspaper two years ago, have held a series of crisis meetings and ordered counter-terrorist services to draw up security plans. Dutch nationals overseas have been asked to register with their embassies and local mayors in the Netherlands have been put on standby.

Geert Wilders, one of nine members of the extremist VVD (Freedom) party in the 150-seat Dutch lower house, has promised that his film will be broadcast - on television or on the internet - whatever the pressure may be. It will, he claims, reveal the Koran as 'source of inspiration for intolerance, murder and terror'.

Dutch diplomats are already trying to pre-empt international reaction. 'It is difficult to anticipate the content of the film, but freedom of expression doesn't mean the right to offend,' said Maxime Verhagen, the Foreign Minister, who was in Madrid to attend the Alliance of Civilisations, an international forum aimed at reducing tensions between the Islamic world and the West. In Amsterdam, Rotterdam and other towns with large Muslim populations, imams say they have needed to 'calm down' growing anger in their communities.

Government officials hope that no mainstream media organisation will agree to show the film, although one publicly funded channel, Nova, initially agreed before pulling out. 'A broadcast on a public channel could imply that the government supported the project,' said an Interior Ministry spokesman.

Demonstrations are also expected from those opposed to Wilders beyond Holland's Muslim community - a number of left-wing activists have already been arrested - and from his supporters. Members of a group calling itself Stop Islamisation of Europe are planning to travel to Amsterdam. 'Geert Wilders is an elected politician who has made a film, and that he is under armed guard as a result is absolutely outrageous,' said Stephen Gash, a UK-based member, yesterday. 'It is all about free speech.'

In November 2004, anger and violence followed the stabbing and shooting by a Dutch teenager of Moroccan parentage of the controversial film-maker Theo Van Gogh, a distant relative of the artist.

The attacker said the killing was in response to a film about Islam and domestic violence that Van Gogh had made with the Somalian-born activist Ayaan Hirsi Ali, then an MP, which showed images of naked veiled women with lines from the Koran projected over them.

From her self-imposed exile in Washington, Hirsi Ali last week criticised the new film as 'provocation' and called on the major Dutch political parties to restart a debate on immigration that has split Dutch society in recent years, rather than leave the field to extremists.

Wilders announced his plans last November, saying he was making a film to show the violent and fascist elements of the Muslim faith. The maverick politician's remarks about Islam have become increasingly radical. In February last year he said that if Muslims wanted to stay in the Netherlands, they should tear out half of the Koran and throw it away. In parliament he then called for the Koran and Hitler's Mein Kampf to be banned, a proposal that was rejected.

Job Cohen, the left-wing mayor of Amsterdam, echoed Hirsi Ali's words and called for a debate 'so that the moderates can make themselves heard'.

During a visit to the European Parliament in Strasbourg last week, Ahmad Badr al-Din Hassoun, the Grand Mufti of Syria, said that, were Wilders was seen to tear up or burn a Koran in his film, 'this will simply mean he is inciting wars and bloodshed ... It is the responsibility of the Dutch people to stop him.

And it all comes down to "ugly wingie talking flying fictional thingies" whether they are considered as contemporary "demons of the demented" or dark age, koranic Jinn.

Bottom line: Just more flaws that need to be deleted from the koran.

Pamela- please answer:

Is Satan an Angel or a Jinn?

Hello Victoria,

I have no idea where Infidel got that those ideas of Satan from the Islamic point of view. Satan, the vain and arrogant one, has no authority over believers. Satan is jealous, is envious that God gave man free will and choice unlike angels.

That thing about God teaching Adam the names of animals and then asked Satan to name all the animals etc and God mocking Satan for his ignorance is certainly something I've not heard before. Definitely not taught in Indonesia or Malaysia. And is certainly not in the Qur'an.

Salaam
Julia

infidel- thats an interesting proposition-
perhaps you can give na example of a virtue carried to an extreme which becomes a vice-

however- youre forgetting that in islam, moderation is applied to every aspect of life-

also, why do you think husbands and wives do not lust after each other?

Imam Pamela Taylor,

In Islam Satan was asked to submit to man...Only God is worthy of worship and Satan and man are expected to submit only to God.

In Islam, Allah taught Adam the names of animals and then asked Satan to name all the animals. When Satan couldn't, Allah mocked him and then proved that Adam knew the names of the animals. In Islam, Adam only knew the names of animals that Allah taught him. Satan did not know it because Allah did not teach him, yet Allah mocked Satan for his ignorance.

In the Judeo-Christian tradition, God asked Adam to name all the animals - man was created in the image and likeness of God and was given power over the earth and all the creatures in it. Lucifer, the Angel of Light was banished from heaven for revolting against God and not submitting to His rule. Satan is not expected to submit to human beings. Satan is expected to submit to God. What makes a devil out of an angel is the refusal to submit to God.

Virtue when carried to an extreme can be a vice. It is not vice that is practised in moderation that becomes a virtue.

Husbands and wives who have sex with each other are not lusting after the other. Sex in marriage is physcial expression of a love relationship where there is responsibility and long term committment. But lust is desire for mere gratification of the flesh outside marriage, that is why it is considered a sin.

For Donttypelies, you commented on the film The Kite Runner, while the earlier comments were on the book. I suggest you read the book. It is set in a time that was more permissive than the present. Do not assume that the film and the book can or do represent the same reality. Film makers often take liberties with a book that call into question many aspects of the reality of what is on the screen.

"I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."

George Bernard Shaw, The Genuine Islam, vol. 1, no. 81936.

But do you mean to tell me that the man who in the full flush of youthful vigour, a young man of four and twenty (24), married a woman much his senior, and remained faithful to her for six and twenty years (26), at fifty years of age when the passions are dying married for lust and sexual passion? Not thus are men's lives to be judged. And you look at the women whom he married, you will find that by every one of them an alliance was made for his people, or something was gained for his followers, or the woman was in sore need of protection." - - Dr Annie Besant (Dr Annie Besant in 'The Life and Teachings of Mohammad,' Madras, 1932)
A noted British author has observed: "No great religious leader has been so maligned as Prophet Mohammed. Attacked in the past as a heretic, an impostor, or a sensualist, it is still possible to find him referred to as "the false prophet." A modern German writer accuses Prophet Mohammed of sensuality, surrounding himself with young women. This man was not married until he was twenty-five years of age, then he and his wife lived in happiness and fidelity for twenty-four years, until her death when he was fourty-nine. Only between the age of fifty and his death at sixty-two did Prophet Mohammed take other wives, only one of whom was a virgin, and most of them were taken for dynastic and political reasons. Certainly the Prophet's record was better than the head of the Church of England, Henry VIII." Geoffrey Parrinder, Mysticism in the World's Religions (New York: Oxford University Press, 1976, pg. 121)

Old Mo.....he shoulda been on Dateline.
The thought of an old man becoming aroused by a child is one of the most disturbing thoughts that makes us cringe as it reminds us of pedophilia and the most despicable people. It is difficult to accept that the Holy Prophet married Aisha when she was 6-years-old and consummated his marriage with her when she was 9. He was then, 54 years old.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm

Book 41, Number 5249:
Narrated AbdurRahman ibn Uthman:

When a physician consulted the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) about putting frogs in medicine, he forbade him to kill them.
------------------------------
Book 41, Number 5251:
Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:

A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

BGone -- My commentary on Satan is based upon the Qur'anic account not the Biblical one.

From the chapter Al-Araf (The Heights):

7:10 Indeed, We have given you a place on earth, and appointed thereon means of livelihood for you: yet how seldom are you grateful!

7:11 Indeed, We have created you, and then formed you; and then We said unto the angels, "Prostrate yourselves before Adam!" - whereupon they prostrated themselves, except for Iblis: he was not among those who prostrated themselves.

7:12 We said: "What has kept you from prostrating yourself when I commanded you?" He answered, "I am better than he. You created me out of fire, whereas You created him out of clay."

7:13 God said: "Down with you, then, from here for it is not seemly for you to show arrogance here! Go forth, then! Verily, among the humiliated you will be!"

7:14 He said, "Grant me a respite till the Day when all shall be raised from the dead."

7:15 And God replied, "Verily, you are among those who are granted a respite."

7:16 He said: "Now that You have thwarted me, I shall most certainly lie in ambush for them all along Your straight way,

7:17 and shall most certainly fall upon them openly as well as in a manner beyond their ken, and from their right and from their left, and most of them You will find ungrateful."

7:18 And God said, "Go forth from here, disgraced and disowned! As for such of them as follow you - I will most certainly fill hell with you all!"

7:19 And, O Adam', dwell you and your spouse in this garden, and eat, both of you, whatever you may wish; but do not approach this one tree, lest you become evildoers!"

7:20 Thereupon Satan whispered unto the two with a view to making them conscious of their nakedness, of which they had been unaware; and he said: "Your Sustainer has but forbidden you this tree lest you two become like angels, or lest you live forever."

7:21 And he swore unto them, "Verily, I am of those who wish you well indeed!"

7:22 And thus he led them on with deluding thoughts. But as soon as the two had tasted [the fruit] of the tree, they became conscious of their nakedness; and they began to cover themselves with pieced-together leaves from the garden. And their Sustainer called unto them: "Did I not forbid that tree unto you and tell you, `Verily, Satan is your open foe'?"

And so on. Iblis is the angel's personal name and Satan (or more properly The Satan if you want to take a very literal translation of the Arabic) is his title, which means "The Burnt One."

Infidel -- Why would you look for a different word for pride when pride can have both positive and negative aspects? However, if you would like me to do so, I can think of various other words that comprise the essential aspect of healthy pride -- self-respect, for instance, or integrity, self-esteem, etc. etc.

And I did not say that ALL sins can be a source of good, only that most sins are extreme versions of impulses that when practiced in moderation are forces for good. Gluttony is the extreme form of appetite, which we need in order to survive. Lust can be a positive force between spouses, bringing them closer together as they share physical pleasure. Let us not be black and white in dealing with human nature.

According to Imam Pamela K Taylor all sins can be a source of good...

Talk of perverse logic...

The Islamic Satan is proud because he does not submit to man, no mention of submitting to God...

Islamic pride can be a source of good...

Overabundance of pride is bad and it is to be defined as...

Imam Pamela K Taylor cannot find a word to describe a virtue that would nicely satisfy the function of pride without the negative sense in which the sin of pride is meant to be taken...

I shall turn away from My revelations those who show pride in the world wrongfully.” (7.146)

“And in this way Allah does put a seal on every arrogant disdainful heart.” (40.35)

Kite Runner is nonsense. There were many things in that movie that were just plain false. Like for example a muslim in Afghanistan getting a Kite for his birthday. BIRTHDAYS ARE ILLEGAL IN ISLAM. THEY ARE A CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY. Nowhere in the Islamic world is it permissible for a muslim to celebrate birthdays. It is HARAAM (forbidden).

AND, there was another part in the movie where one man showed a picture of his wife to another man. THAT IS ALSO ILLEGAL AND HARAAM and a big fat social taboo. NONE ONE EVEN ASKS "HOW IS YOUR WIFE DOING" Becasue IT IS one of the DIRTIEST things you can say to another man.

The movie sucked. But the liberals will beleive it and like it because it makes you FEEEL good.

It is distressing that the Islamic authorities in Afghanistan have banned the movie version of The Kite Runner. http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=4141251

And the stench of sharia "law" pervades even the mountains as it oozes from places like Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

Hello HL,

Thanks for the tip on that book, "The Kite Runner" by Khaled Hoesseini. I have not read it and will look at Amazon.com to see if they have it. Now that you've said it and give examples of theft as a sin, I can see now the various types of theft and its consequences.

Salaam
Julia

Julia,

I don’t know if you read the book “the kite runner” by Khaled Hosseini. In the book Amir asks his father about sin and his reply was: “There is only one sin, only one. And that is theft. Every sin is a variation of theft … when you kill a man, you steal a life. You steal his wife’s right to a husband, rob his children of a father. When you tell a lie, you steal someone’s right to the truth. When you cheat, you steal the right to fairness.” I believe he got a point.
Salaam

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Report: Murdered Girls' Father Had Long History of Abuse, Police Run-ins
Thursday, January 10, 2008

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Amina (left) and Sarah Said
Amina (left) and Sarah Said
The on-the-lam father believed to have murdered his two teenage daughters had a long history of abuse that included several clashes with the law in the past, according to The Dallas Morning News.

Yaser Said, 50, is still on the run, nearly two weeks after his 17- and 18-year-old girls Sarah and Amina were found shot to death in his taxi and a warrant was issued for his arrest. Some family members believe he may have fled the country to his homeland of Egypt, the News reported, and authorities are investigating that possibility.

But Said was no stranger to officers in Lewisville, Texas, and the numerous other communities throughout the state where he and his family have lived over the years, according to the paper.

Click here to read the entire report in The Dallas Morning News.

Family members say he had physically abused and threatened his daughters and his 36-year-old wife, Patricia, for more than a decade, and was prone to violent outbursts and diatribes about the corrupting influence of Western culture on his children.

continued...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,321806,00.html

http://www.wluml.org/english/index.shtml

Assalamu Alaikum
Imam Pamela Taylor,

Thank you for your essay.

As you stated, pride can be positive. Pride in things done well and good deeds performed unbidden by our children is also positive pride. To gloat about it to one's extended family, friends and colleagues may be overbearing pride.

To have a lust for and appreciate life is surely not sin. To envy someone who can speak and write many languages perfectly and one to try to equal or excel them is surely not a sin too, but an impetus, a challenge that if they can do it, surely one can.

Among the Seven Deadly Sins - pride, envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed and sloth, no doubt gluttony and sloth are the most unattractive to be personally ascribed to have and the most obvious to be seen. These have no possibility of being positively redirected and rechannelled as anger can be about something.

It is not just the seven deadly sins stated, but also the lying, cheating, and crimes committed, including killing, due to one, some or all of the said sins that leads to the undoing and downfall of man.

That makes ten sins, quite dismaying ten sins.

Peace be with you.

Thank you and best regards
Julia

P.S.

On gluttony and sloth - nowadays, if one engages in gluttony, one is sometimes called a gourmand. If one is being slothful, one is called a slacker. Being a gourmand or a slacker are not quite deadly sins. Except for parents indulging their gourmandising slacker offspring in his prodigious food intake at their expense.:)

Greed, greed, greed!!!!

And you can measure it:

Enron: lost jobs, 4,500 and a loss of $80 billion.

WorldCom: lost jobs, 17,000 jobs and a loss of $100 billion.

Qwest Communications: lost jobs, 11,000 and a loss of $32 billion.

Sunnis ("Wannabees") vs. Shiites (Iran): 80,000 Iraqi citizens killed and $ 200++ billion to prevent added blood shed in the obvious greed for oil in the 800 year-old blood feud.

You're confusing Satan with Lucifer. Satan is the "accuser" and Lucifer is the angel that would be God. Is getting the story cockeyed a sin or just standard practice for the religious?

See http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul and get educated about Lucifer. There's pictures of Satan that date Moses at http://www.hoax-buster.org Sure enough, Satan "accuses" the dead of being sinners, violations of God's rules -that would be Pharaoh's rules telling us that Pharaoh was God, (still is God, Jesus to be exact).

Don't Muslims exhibit a ton of false pride by reacting like children to any criticism, cartoon for example?

Yes, pride is a really deadly sin. 9-11-2001 came with a lot of pride and follow up boasting and bragging. That event was celebrated as a great victory for Allah by almost all Muslims wasn't it? Why is Allah so puny He can't knock down buildings without help from people? Seems to me Muslims should be ashamed of Allah instead of having all that pride in Him. It's obvious that Allah is a sickly substandard and inferior God.