Forgive as You Would Like to be Forgiven

Dear Victoria

I notice you have posted. I had actually announced my "retirement" on Pamela Taylor's thread because I had nothing original to contribute and nothing new to learn from a strictly Islamic perspective based on Taylor's essays. Her lack of response to my posts had begun to offend my vanity as well! ;)

We had gone through this discussion before on one of Eboo Patel's threads. I know that you, as a Christian convert to Islam, believe Jesus was referring to Mohammad when He talked of the coming of the Holy Spirit (the term Comforter being merely one of the descriptions). I see no verse in the Quran to support your claim, for Mohammad made no mention that he was the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus. Anyway, it is hard to convince any Christian that the Pentecost did not mark the coming of the Holy Spirit, the verses in the Book of Acts referring to it have no significance, and most of all that Jesus was going to comfort His disciples six hundred years later by sending a man to Mecca. If it makes perfect sense to you to believe that Jesus was referring to a man who would be born six hundred years later in another part of the world, then go right ahead and believe it. But please don't get annoyed with the two billion Christians who find your explanation a bit far fetched.

Best wishes
Soja

i have no idea what that has to do with our conversaton

did you forget what we were discussing?

we can continue here if you like- some of the finer points of what i considered the holy spirit, its nature etc-

as ive put the etymological roots of it (from catholic dictionary) it is one of the reasons i became muslim in particular-

the comforter seemed clearly the Prophet(pbuh) to me-
the ruh-ul-quddus which was translated as holy spirit- is another issue altogether

especially the catholic concept of holy spirit-

honestly there was never a successful analogy for it to me- ice, shamrocks,eggs- etc---
has always seemed like a rationale tacked on to support an idea that wasnt there to begin with-

i also could never dismiss the first commandment which states that god is one- and there are no other gods beside/before (him/her) (depending on which translation you read-

to be honest, ive always felt it bordered on some magic or superstition and shifted dependence on the god to another being-

but it was studying the bible that led me to these conclusions- not the words of priests or pastors-

the old, "its a mystery" argument just never made any sense- and the bible doesnt seem to offer any demands anywhere that we use our intelligence to reason either-

why would the god give us an intelligence and then tell us not to use it?

that never made sense either-

even if you look back at the politics of the council of nicea and the formation of the trinitiy- we all might be folowing an arian code if arius hadnt been murdered on the way to the council-

the decisions reached at the council were highly suspect to say the least- and yet it is followed without question!
word first useD BY ORIGEN?

this is the problem-
i am not going to do yourreasoning for you-
you have to do that yourself-
saying the answer lies within 4 pages of cut and pastes-
it isnt an answer soja-

there is the original unanswered question-

can you reason yourself and explain , without resorting to quick cut and pastes?

Dear Victoria

The answers to your questions are contained in the Bible passages I cut and paste. The Bible is the best source of information. As to an academic discussion, I'm sure you are aware that Jewish and Christian religious scholars have already had several over the centuries and come to the conclusion that they have to agree to disagree. Do you think you and I are going to break ground when the scholars themselves could not, when Mohammad himself could not?

The book by Pope Benedict, 'Jesus of Nazareth' is very good and provides a scholarly response to your questions too.

I read the following in the introduction to J M Rodwell's translation of the Quran (which provides cross reference to Jewish and Christian Scripture):

"Another important merit of J M Rodwell's edition is its chronological arrangement of the Suras or chapters. As he tells us himself in his preface, it is now in a number of cases impossible to ascertain the exact occasion on which a discourse, or part of a discourse, was delivered, so that the system could not be carried through with entire consistency. But the sequence adopted is in the main based on the best available historical and literary evidence; and in following the order of the chapters as here printed, the reader will be able to trace the development of the prophet's mind as he gradually advanced from the early flush of inspiration to the less spiritual and more equivocal role of warrior, politician, and founder of an empire."

G. Margoliouth

"A line of argument to be adopted by a Christian in dealing with a Muhammadan should be, not to attack Islam as a mass of error, but to shew that it contains fragments of disjointed truth–that it is based upon Christianity and Judaism partially understood–especially upon the latter, without any appreciation of its typical character pointing to Christianity as a final dispensation.

"Muhammad can scarcely have failed to observe the opportunity offered for the growth of a new power, by the ruinous strifes of the Persians and Greeks. Abulfeda (Life of Muhammad, p. 76) expressly says that he had promised his followers the spoils o Chosroes and Cæsar."

From the notes on Sura 5: "Of the leading features of the character of the Muslims none is more remarkable thant their religious pride. They regard persons of every other faith as the children of perdition; and such the Muslim is early taught to despise. They are however, 'as remarkable for their moderation as for their contempt of unbelievers."

End of quote
-----------

So Victoria, while I respect your stand as a Muslim and the stand of all Muslims, I continue to remain a Christian by conviction even after reading the Quran.

Agreeing to disagree is the best we can do.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year 2008!

Best wishes
Soja

soja- why does this always happen?

you engage in a conversation, leave a bunch of cut and pastes, and never really respond to specific points-

then when questions come you have no answer for, you disappear.
why bother?

i refer you back to the unfinished conversation and unanswered questions i posted

then well deal with new accusations, ok?

Errata

I meant that Christians and Jews objected to Mohammad's accusation that they had got their own Scripture wrong, i.e. Jews not Muslims!

Dear Victoria

I am fully aware that you are an ex-Christian. The long cut and paste is for the purpose of informing other Muslims who may not be familiar with the Bible as you are. I take it that you are not the only Muslim reading these blogs and our exchange ought to make sense to others as well.

I already mentioned in my response to one of the earlier essays by Pamela Taylor (her explanation of the Islamic take on Jesus)that Muslims are free to interpret Jesus as they like. They cannot however expect Christians to accept that interpretation. Just because Mohammad decided to rewrite the Bible for the Muslims claiming all the Jews and Christians had got their own Scripture wrong, doesn't make it true. If it were all Jews and Christians would have converted to Islam based on Mohammad's claims. Many verses in the Quran point to the objections raised by Christians and Muslims in Mohammad's day. That proves that not even Mohammad himself got very far with his reinvention of the Jewish and Christian Scripture.

Maybe you could explain why the Quran gives a list of wars fought against the Jewish tribes, why there was a need to put the Jews to the sword in the first place. If Allah, the name of one of the gods the Arab pagans worshipped, is the same as YHWH of the Jews and God the Father of Christianity (God of Abraham), why didn't Mohammad convert to Judaism or Christianity instead? Why did he feel the need to found a new religion?

Is it not possible that Mohammad was asking the Arab tribes to stop worshipping idols since Allah, the god of the Arab pagans had three daughters, (or so the introduction to the Quran tells me)? After all neither the Jews nor the Christians worshipped idols, but the Arab pagans did? Perhaps Mohammad's repeated reminder that god does not produce offspring refers to the daughters of Allah that the Arab pagans worshipped?

What religious aspect is exactly unique about Islam? Why are all the religious concepts borrowed directly from The Book, with certain "corrections"?

Could it be that Allah, the pagan god, was given the attributes of YHWH in the Bible?

If Mohammad was a prophet, what exactly did he prophesy?

Jews and Christians could easily interpret the Quran based on Jewish and Christian Scripture. A Muslim may not accept it all.

Do reread our exchange about the Bhagavad Gita on Eboo Patel's thread, "Discrimination against Muslims." BTW, a Hindu would have no problem with accepting that Jesus Christ was an incarnation of God. In fact some Hindu reformers like Ramakrishna, Vivekanda and Sivananda already have.

Best wishes
Soja

soja- pleae- I NEVER ASKED YOU WHAT THE CONCEPT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN CHRISTIANITY IS AT ALL-

actually- i asked you to refrain from long copy and pastes as its a subject im already familar with- and have much of what you posted memorized myself-

back to the original point-
(yes- i think its pretty well understood that the allegory of god as the lover is symbolic, no one has suggested otherwise- there are however many stories as you well know- that depict krishna as the lover- yes we got it along time ago- the lover and the beloved-)

11-24- 3:49AM

soja- you posted-
" 2:87 The Quran states, "To Moses We gave the Scriptures and after him We sent other apostles. We gave Jesus son of Mary veritable signs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i can understand how there migh be confusion on this from a christian perspective
possibly the cloeset one could come would be the 'spirit of holiness' as regards gabriel-

*********************************************
it says..."SUPPORTED Him with Ruh-ul-Quddus(Gabriel-Jibreel)
*******************************************

i just wanted to clarify the usage of that particular phrase- since it is fraught with heavy meaning for christians that are into necessarily the sense communicated in islam-

it would be easily confused, as being the same holy spirit (parokletos formerly expounded upon)

this is an exellent article i found on the subject

actually- you never commented on the definition of parakleos form the catholic dictionary either-

please- no more long cut and pastes

reasoning, and insight

for instance- if you post a verse- comment on how you interpret it-
for you r long pastes- my interpretation is clearly different than yours becuase i am starting with a different base and premise-

as a catholic it was my stdies of the bible that led me to the conclusion that Jesus(ara) was NOT god-
for instance-
Jesus(ata) refers to himslef 72 SEVENTY TWO different times n the bible as a MAN-
thats alot

so if my premise is that Jesus(ata) was a prophet and a man- my conclusions reached from what you posted will be quite different

now ive already tried to reconcile the differences in the bible with the doctrine of Jesus'(ata) divinity-
and found myself unable to maintain it

ive already seen your perspective

if you want to get into that opic thats fine, but it would be logical to finsih the first topic before that

now you seemed to think that the qu'ran was substantiating your view of the holy spirit-
go and read the long article posted

hence the original misunderstanding

Dear Victoria

Regarding your interpretation about my attitude towards the Bhagavad Gita: I suggest you reread our exchange on Eboo Patel's thread, 'Discrimination against Muslims.'

In response to your rather strange notion of Krishna's relationship to married women (although Hindu spirituality, even in the Gita, is about the soul, which emphasises overcoming the sensual desires of the body in order for the human soul to realise God)I posted my response. In that context I also mentioned my own acquaintance with the Gita, starting from school when I memorised a whole chapter in Sanskrit. In that thread I also quoted from the introduction on the Gita in the book written by Dom Bede Griffiths (which you have repeated almost verbatim on this thread). And last but not by any means the least I mentioned that Fr Bede had me read verses from the Gita during the religious ceremony on 22 February 1992(my first ceremony to become a Benedictine Oblate)and he gave me a spiritual name taken from the Gita, "Priya," meaning,'Beloved of God,' (please note that it is NOT meant in a romantic and sexual sense!)Like Saul became Paul, Soja was made into Priya. Unfortunately I did not return to India to have the final ceremony one year later. Fr Bede passed away on 13 May 1993.

I understand that since you have posted thousands of messages you might have forgotten our earlier exchange. This is just a reminder of our original exchange quite a while ago.

Best wishes
Soja

PS:

1. The worldwide interest in Islam, as a religion, was sparked only as a result of the terrorist attacks in the name of Islam. It is only because of the real and present danger of violence in the name of Islam that non-Muslims would like to get to the bottom of the religion to find out if the Quran actually sanctions use of violence on innocent civilians. It is heartening to hear from some Muslims that such violence as the terrorists resort to is against the Quran. The world can rest in peace only when all 1.3 billion Muslims agree and act on that claim. Until such time, governments are forced to remain vigilant in order to protect all its citizens from terrorist attacks in the name of Islam.

2. The ex-Muslims posting on this forum also informed us that the punishment for leaving Islam is no less than death. As ex-Muslims they live in fear for their lives and need the protection of the secular governments of the non-Muslim countries they live in. That is a matter of concern to all non-Muslims who care as much for the human rights of ex-Muslims as anybody else.

3. The reaction of many Muslims to the Pope's citation in a university lecture, the Danish cartoons etc. is of serious concern to all non-Muslims who believe in universal human rights of free speech and freedom of expression. We know of no other religion that metes out such punishment for such reasons. The world is however all too familiar with political regimes that do not tolerate dissent and criticism. Hence we would like to know if such (what we would consider completely irrational and inappropriate) reaction is Quran based.

4. All non-Muslims are fully aware that the reform of Islam must occur from within, and we encourage and support all work done by anyone towards that end. Just as the Catholic Church benefited from outside criticism to reform its less than Christian practises (luckily none of which was Bible based), so must Islam endure criticism from outside to force reform from within. Rationalising any fact based criticism does not serve to silence the critics at all, and does the image of Islam no good. Non-Muslims reserve the right to raise objections when their safety and human rights are infringed upon, including the rights of ex-Muslims, in the name of a religion, even if it is called Islam, the religion of peace. Yes, non-Muslims will judge Islam only according to its fruits. Non-Muslims do not expect to be judged by Muslims in any other way either.

5. I continue to respect and admire all that is good in Muslims and respect every single Muslim as a human being created in the image and likeness of God. I still feel the same sense of awe and inner raising of my spirit to God (even if I do not call Him Allah) when I hear the Muslim call to prayer from the Mosque. I still love all the great Sufi mystics and their wisdom. I still love the beauty of Sufi music.

Dear Victoria

As I write this my earlier posts have not yet appeared. When it does you will notice that I have posted Bible passages to confirm the Christian view of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Of course I understand that you view Christianity and Islam from a Muslim perspective. You rejected Christianity and converted to Islam and therefore accept the Quranic “correction” of the Bible instead. I remain a Christian because of my conviction about the message in the Bible. Therefore you should not expect me to agree with Islamic interpretations of the Bible. Christianity has vast, extremely sophisticated scholarship spanning two thousand years. So if I wanted to read complex, scholarly Bible interpretations from a Christian perspective, I would choose Christian authors and Jewish authors if I wanted Judaic interpretation of the Old Testament. I would want to read Muslim authors only to understand something that is non-Biblical and uniquely Islamic.

David was “most absolutely a prophet” only according to Islam, but is considered a King according to Jews and Christians. As a Christian of course I know that most of the Psalms are attributed to King David. As an ex-Christian of course you know that the Book of Psalms in its entirety is part of the Bible and that it is used as part of worship as much by Christians as by the Jews. There are several verses and thoughts from the Psalms scattered throughout the Quran.

Christians accepted the Old Testament, the Jewish Scripture, exactly as it is, but Islam has its own “corrected” and edited version of the OT and NT. Why?

I did not imply that the OT is the secular history of Israel. It goes without saying that any history contained in Scripture would be narrated from the perspective of the development of the religion. Scripture is not meant to be a history textbook.

Although there are many different translations of the Bible, the core message remains the same. The hair splitting discussions based on the nuances of the translation of Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek words are of interest only to Bible scholars and theologians. Regarding the different translations of the Quran: “Since kufic script in which the Quran was originally written contained no indication of vowels or diacritical points, variant readings are recognized by Muslims as of equal authority.” No such variance relating to the original language of the Bible exists in its translation.

On what grounds should Christianity/Christians be competing with Islam/Muslims? It is true that there are 1.3 billion Muslims worldwide. Two billion (one third of the world’s population) remain Christian and there are 200 million Jews. The Western civilization of today owes much of its glory to Judeo-Christian contribution. Unlike Islam, there is no punishment for leaving Christianity, so it cannot be said that anyone is being forced to remain Christian.

We live in an age when the threat is not about Christians adopting Islam or Muslims converting to Christianity, but about people not finding any use for religions; most of all about believers of all religious stripes being followers only in name.

The article you posted (you did not provide the name of the author despite my request) does not reflect the Quranic train of thought in any way and seems to be a rather clumsy patchwork of non-Islamic ideas I’m familiar with from other traditions.

Best wishes
Soja

To all Muslims:

Moses is mentioned in the Quran several times. I was suprised however that the Ten Commandments is not mentioned in the Quran, although The Ten Commandments forms the essence of the covenant made by God with Israel. It is said to have been written on two stone tablets and given to Moses. The stone tablets with the commandments written on them was treated with the utmost reverence by the Jews; meditating on God's laws "day and night' and obeying them, in order to imitate God in His holiness, forms the cornerstone of Judaism. Jesus said that He had not come to do away with the laws of holiness but to fulfill them.

The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-19; Deuteronomy 5:1-22)

1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

13 "You shall not murder.

14 "You shall not commit adultery.

15 "You shall not steal.

16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."

20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning."

21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.

To all Muslims:

The link to chapter 17 of the Gospel of John and verses from the Book of Acts about the coming of the Holy Spirit that Jesus talked about at the Last Supper:

http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=john17

http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=acts2

The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost

1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place.

2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.

3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.

4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues [a] as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken.

7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Aren't all these who are speaking Galileans?

8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?

9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,

10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome

11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"

12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"

13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine."

To all Muslims:

This is continuation of my response to Victoria about what Jesus said about Himself and who the Holy Spirit is according to the belief of Christians.

As mentioned in the earlier post, the Gospel of John chapters 14-17 is the message and prayer of Jesus at the Last Supper.

Here the links for chapters 15 and 16:

http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=john15

http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=john16

Dear Victoria

Along with the Ten Commandments given to Moses, the Sermon on the Mount sums up the teaching of Christianity. That is why it has to be treated as a single unit. The parables Jesus used in order to teach, may be considered merely elaborations on the theme. Similarly the message of Jesus to His disciples at the Last Supper, and His prayer for them and all believers to come, is a single unit (Gospel of John, chapters 14-17) and has to be treated as such to understand the core beliefs on which Christanity is founded.

I have chosen passages I consider relevant only to illustrate the Christian perspective on issues you raised. I hope you understand that not every Muslim has had the opportunity to live in a Franciscan convent for many years as a noice (noviciate) as you have and therefore may not be aware of the Biblical verses you are so familiar with. I take it that other Muslims besides you, Ms Taylor and Jihadist are reading these discussions, hence my post is addressed to all Muslims.

To be contd...

Best wishes
Soja

soja- those are kind of disjointed verses (and long)

please go back again and read what i posted

these verses have no earing on aything i said at all- which was many points

where did you learn that david was not a prophet?
ask your priest

this last post actually proves the manhood of jesus(ata) not the godhead of jesus(ata)

when jesus(ata) refused to trun the stones to bread, he said MAN does not live by bread alone-

he was a man who would not test god

anyway- loooong posts but no meaning or tie up!
put it together into something

please, i dont make looong cut and pastes and expect you to construct something out of it-

i posted a WHOLE LOT OF CORRECTIONS backed up-

- if you want to discuss- go read what i actually posted

honestly, ive read this stuff a hundred (more) times in my life-

if i make a point- its a clear one

please, no looong cut and pastes

no one said the spirit is all spirits

the loooong last supper verses you posted (why?)
answer nothing

you left out the part where god tells samuel that HE DOESNT WANT A HUMAN KING OVER ISRAEL!!!!

please- go back and read your own scripture
read the whole story

now maybe youve gotten this out of your system you can go back to the original points-
the construction of the trinitarian concept at nicea
the meaning of the word parekletos

the 200 translations of the bible in english
the wide differences between them

compare king james to new world

you have to construct your own linear logic here-
and present it

whatever is in your mind that you think i sself evident (like the temptation verse "proving" jesus(ata) divinity????????????)

clearly- you need to elaborate with some logical thinking and cant expect anyone to do the work to prove your point

what is your point?
i made a lot of points-
just pick one, any one- and follow it through

My earlier posts have not appeared on the thread yet hence I prefer to wait until they do before I continue.

To all Muslims:

This is to continue on the theme brought up by Victoria about who Jesus was.

The Temptations of Jesus as described in the Bible

"Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. After fasting for forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.

"The tempter came to him and said, ‘If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.’ Jesus answered, ‘It is written:’Man does not live by bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’

“Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, that you will not strike your foot against a stone.” Jesus answered him, “It is also written, ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’

"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour. “All this I will give to you, “ he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” Jesus said to him, ‘Away from me, Satan! For it is written: “Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’

"Then the devil left him, and the angels came and attended him.”

(Matthew 4:1-11)

My personal comments:

- Jesus fasted forty days and nights.

- The devil knew exactly who Jesus was!

- The fact that even Jesus was tempted proves that the devil is not beyond tempting the one is who is closest to God. The closer one gets to God, the greater and subtler is the temptation. It was necessary to be tested by the devil before one would be ready for God's work. The choice for God has to be consciously and freely made.

- Feeling drawn to have worldly power is a great temptation for anyone who gets close to God and Jesus said a conscious "No." He was aware that His kingdom was not of this world. The temptation to put God to the test by making all sorts of unreasonable requests seems to be stumbling block for those who get close to God it seems to which Jesus said "No."

To all Muslims:

David, the king (since Victoria made a reference to David as a prophet in one of her earlier posts)

The Quran refers to everyone from the Bible mentioned in it as prophets, including David.

However, according to the Bible David is a king, not a prophet.

The Quran says, "We have exalted some prophets above others. To David We gave the Psalms." (17:56)

According to the Bible, Samuel the prophet was sent to choose David as future king. (1 Samuel 16:1-13)

“All the tribes of Israel came to David at Hebron and said, “We are your own flesh and blood. In the past, while Saul was king over us, you were the one who led Israel on their military campaigns. And the Lord said to you, “You shall shepherd my people Israel, and you shall become their ruler.”

When all the elders of Israel had come to Kind David at Hebron, the king made a compact with them at Hebron before the Lord, and they anointed David King over Israel. David was thirty years old when he became king, and he reigned for forty years.”

(2 Samuel 5:1-4)

In the Book of Acts, Paul gives a summary of the Old Testament and the confirmation of Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah thus:

“Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: ‘Men of Israel and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me! The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers; he made the people prosper during their stay in Egypt, with mighty power he led them out of that country, he endured their conduct for about forty years in the desert, he overthrew seven nations in Canaan and gave their land to his people as their inheritance. All this took about 450 years.

“After this, God gave them judges until the time of Samuel the prophet. Then the people asked for a king, and he gave them Saul son of Kish, of the tribe of Benjamin, who ruled for forty years. After removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’

“From this man’s descendents God has brought to Israel the Saviour Jesus, as he promised. Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel. As John was completing his work, he said: ‘Who do you think I am? I am not that one. No, but he is coming after me, whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.’

“Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent. The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, and yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead, and for many days he was seen by those who had travelled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.

“We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: “You are my Son, today I have become your Father.” The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in the words: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.’ So it is stated: ‘You will not let your Holy One see decay.’ For when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed. But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

“Therefore my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the Law of Moses. Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you: “Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you.”

(Acts 13:16-41)

Dear Victoria

Just as the Quran is the best source to verify any claims made by Muslims, so is the Bible the first source to verify Christian claims. For me, as a lay person who is open to the leading of the Holy Spirit because of my faith in Jesus Christ, it is all the more important to look to the Bible for answers first.

The Holy Spirit is for Christians the third person in the Trinity, one God in three persons. The Holy Spirit is not just any Spirit, but is specifically associated with Jesus. During the Last Supper, Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit after He was gone (Gospel of John, chapters 14-17). Accordingly the Holy Spirit was sent on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-12). The Holy Spirit transformed the fear and doubt filled Apostles into fearless missionaries who would spread the good news about Jesus and lay down their lives for Him.

So here some more verses straight from the Bible to know what Jesus had to say about Himself and the Holy Spirit, and I will address them to all Muslims.

Best wishes
Soja
------------------

To all Muslims:

The words of Jesus at the Last Supper

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms (other translation: mansions); if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father?' Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

"If you love me, you will obey what I command.

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you for ever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me any more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realise that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me.

"He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching.

"My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

"He who does not love me will not obey my teaching.

"These words you hear are not my own: they belong to the Father who sent me.

"All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me."

My personal comments:

- One notices that the Apostles of Jesus had doubts about His identity even though they had spent three unbroken years in His company, being taught by Him and had witnessed all His miracles firsthand. The Jews who followed Jesus were definitely not blind followers. They doubted and questioned Jesus at every turn and Jesus respected their doubts and questioning and explained everything to His disciples over and over again. Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit who would continue to remind and teach His disciples. In other words, Jesus expected His disciples to need more teaching and more reminders of His teaching.

- Jesus made an incredible man, a claim made by no other human being in history before Him or since: He said, " I am the way, and the truth, and the life." He did NOT say, I came to show the way, to teach the truth or teach a way to gain life. He claimed He was the way, the truth and the life itself!

- Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, who claimed was God. He chided Philip for wanting to see the Father in spite of being in His company. Jesus thus claimed to be one with the Father while at the same time claiming His human side by saying that His Father was greater than Him, God the totally transcendent.

- Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as being associated specifically with Him, and did not make a general claim about all spirits being the Holy Spirit.

- Jesus emphasizes over and over again that the way to prove to show one's love for Him was to obey His commands. We know for certain Jesus was not one to be impressed with empty words, "Lord, Lord." He wanted proof in action.

- Jesus made astounding promises to those who accepted Him: the promise to be with them through the gift of the Holy Spirit, to teach and comfort, the presence of God, His own peace... He not only cared so much but He wanted His disciples to do even greater things in the world than He had done! How many teachers do we know who want their followers/pupils to be greater than themselves?

To be contd...

sorry i didnt go back to the mubarak post- i didnt answer but it was a very nice post
peace

we can continue here if you like- some of the finer points of what i considered the holy spirit, its nature etc-

as ive put the etymological roots of it (from catholic dictionary) it is one of the reasons i became muslim in particular-

the comforter seemed clearly the Prophet(pbuh) to me-
the ruh-ul-quddus which was translated as holy spirit- is another issue altogether

especially the catholic concept of holy spirit-

honestly there was never a successful analogy for it to me- ice, shamrocks,eggs- etc---
has always seemed like a rationale tacked on to support an idea that wasnt there to begin with-

i also could never dismiss the first commandment which states that god is one- and there are no other gods beside/before (him/her) (depending on which translation you read-

to be honest, ive always felt it bordered on some magic or superstition and shifted dependence on the god to another being-

but it was studying the bible that led me to these conclusions- not the words of priests or pastors-

the old, "its a mystery" argument just never made any sense- and the bible doesnt seem to offer any demands anywhere that we use our intelligence to reason either-

why would the god give us an intelligence and then tell us not to use it?

that never made sense either-

even if you look back at the politics of the council of nicea and the formation of the trinitiy- we all might be folowing an arian code if arius hadnt been murdered on the way to the council-

the decisions reached at the council were highly suspect to say the least- and yet it is followed without question!
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"The Nicene Creed introduced the word "homoousious" or "consubstantial" meaning "of one substance." This word was not invented at the Council. Eusebius writes that some of the "most learned and distinguished of the ancient bishops had made use of consubstantial in treating of the divinity of the Father and the Son" (See document E in the Appendix, Baker). We do not have the sources that Eusebius must have had regarding the use of this word. Today, the only source is Origen who used the word in what seems the orthodox way (Johannes Quastren, "Patrology," Volume 2, p78). However, this phrase of Eusebius stands as a witness to the existence of wider use.
The bishops assembled at Nicea were careful to explain how they used the word, and what it meant. This is because it had been misused by Paul of Samosta. Regarding this unorthodox usage, St. Hilary and St. Basil say that it was said to be "unfit to describe the relation between the Father and the Son" at a council that met in Antioch (Ibid, p14). Apparently Paul of Samosta applied the word in a manner that implied division of nature, as several coins are from the same metal (Baker, p21).

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the word first useD BY ORIGEN?

anyway, those are some quick points
peace

nov.24, 2:59AM

ok, well since you have time now, theres alot of info there-

Dear Victoria

When our posts crossed, it was evening here in Sydney, the day of federal elections in Australia - Saturday, 24 November 2007. As an Australian citizen who had cast my vote that day(voting is compulsory in Australia) I was interested to follow the election results. Do you consider that as a valid reason for not taking the time to respond immediately to your long post which required me to consider the response (since I normally write spontaneously)?

You posted an article for my consideration without naming the author. Since I'm passionate about giving due credit where credit is due, could you please provide the name of the author, with some detail of the religious and educational background, if available? It might give a valuable clue also to the origin of the non-Muslim terminology and concepts used in the article.

FYI: Ms Pamela Taylor has never responded to a single post that I addressed to her, although she has taken the time to respond personally to several bloggers on her threads. Jihadist had not responded to my post addressed personally to her either. What motive am I to ascribe to their silence? You should know better since you are able to understand the mind of a Muslim woman better than me. I can speculate as to what their motives might be, but I would be completely wrong in assuming that I'm infallible in my assumptions. Similarly you don't always respond the way I would rather have you respond (for instance you did not respond to my last post addressed to you on Ms Mubarak's thread) and yet it does not occur to me to assume I know exactly why you act the way you do. Might you then be kind enough to give me the time I require to respond adequately to your lengthy post?

Best wishes
Soja

we were even posting at the exact same time, you couldnt have missed it

soja- you said you wanted to learn about the premises of islam to create understanding

yet all you did was paste and run

i spent alot of effort on responding specifically to your contentions, as did HL

i have to say, your stated intentions are ringing a little hollow

victoria wrote:
thats the nigeriam government ross-
i have no idea what charlatan came up with that reasoning

Why is it when Mo orders a woman to be stoned (even if she asked for it according to you) it is a matter of the woman's reconciliation with Allah, and when the islamic courts of nigeria do the same you call them "charlatans" ?

Why is the stoning in case of Mo different from the one ordered by the nigerian sharia courts ? I'm sure both bled to death having their heads cracked.

victoria wrote:
i have no idea what charlatan came up with that reasoning

Nor do you have ant idea what islam is about,
the charlatans are the scholars of islam throughout the centuries starting from Mo and his alter ego called Allah.

What makes you think you know better than the sharia scholars and their islamic courts in nigeria, saudi, pakistan, qatar, jordan, egypt ..... etc ?

thats the nigeriam government ross-
i have no idea what charlatan came up with that reasoning

ok soja-
you claim youre not an evangelist-
but you have no response to detailed answers

more cut and paste

thanks for sharing

victoria wrote:
a woman who is raped does not provide "witnesses"

What religion are you following ? In islam a woman needs four witnesses to prove she had been raped and arrest the rapist. Failing which she could be accused of adultery and the rapist gets away scot free. Live with it, in islam the laws never favour the woman.

here's more from the above post:
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DNA is not accepted in Islam, but at least 4 witnesses of reputable character, should give testimony of the actual penetration of the sexual intercourse to convict him. You might ask, who has sexual intercourse in front of 4 witnesses? I can also ask you "how can you consider 4 men watching others' sexual intercourse, as reputable characters?".But, there is no question or denying that this is not a traditonal, customary, cultural or a kangaroo court, but a legal Islamic court, with legal Islamic judges and legal expert Islamic officials, in the muslim state of Bakori ( Nigeria), of the legal Government, democratically elected by the Muslim citizens of this state. These are the undeniable authentic facts, which no amount of words or actions can ever repudiate.
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EYEWITNESS TO STONING WOMAN IN SAUDI ARABIA FOR ADULTERY

When I was sent to Riyadh for a month to work with the US Air Force for a joint assignment, I never realized the sights I'd see. One of them was a public stoning. All I saw was a woman standing in a hole tied to a post, she was shoulder deep in the hole. The guy I was with wanted to see it. It's rare that westerners are even allowed to see this They gathered around this poor girl for around an hour, throwing rocks at her.

Stoning a human to death

Dear readers, please put on your thinking cap and imagine a mental picture of the following story.

A deep hole is dug in the ground. A 30 year old lady, tied up from feet to shoulders, as a stick, is lowered alive into this hole, in a standing position. Only her neck and head are visible. Can you imagine a human head sticking above ground?

When the order is given, a man throws a fist-sized stone at her protruding head. The stone hits her head with a thud. She screems in pain as the blood oozes down her face. Another man picks up a stone and scraps the side of her head drawing a lateral line of blood. She cries and screems in excruciating pain. Since it is a free for all, a teenage spectator from this open playing field, tries his luck, but misses her head completely. Another aims at her and flings it with force. The stone hits its intended target, her forehead.

She screems and cries loudly for mercy. There is now a gash on her forehead. Blood spurting out, down her eyes, nose, cheeks, mouth and down to the ground. She cries out for mercy but to not avail. The minutes become an hour, between the many misses, scraps, nicks, chips and strikes. Another spectator flings forcefully at her.

The stone hits the bridge of her nose with another thud. She screems again and again. This time the blood comes down from inside and outside her nose. Probably, her nasal bridge-bone is broken, causing the bleeding from inside her nostrils as well. Though her wounds are grave, as you can imagine, her screems by now are not as vociferous as earlier, and her tears help to wash some of the blood on her cheeks. Her vision has completely gone with the blood coating.The next stone hits her again. A piece of flesh pops out. No, its not, oh god, it really can't be her eye-ball. It is so bloody that you cann't really make out. By this time, blood has covered her entire face and the ground in front of her.She still makes groaning sounds. More time pass. Stoning her, continues. Her sounds are less and less audible. Her face has become unrecognisable. Flesh, like mashed meat is her face, but only more bloody, as she now literally has no human face. Small strips of flesh, like locks of hair are hanging from her. Her head is now droopping forward. At this stage a hit on her make splashes of blood. She has stopped making a sound for the last two stone pelting. Two hours have passed. The Islamic authorities check her neck for pulse. It is still beating but barely, due to the loss of blood. A flesh piece drops off her head, as the stoning process continues.

Finally,death comes to this lady. She is then left there for a few more hours for the spectators to see, because this is a public lesson for all muslim females, who commit adultery.Then her father and relatives are allowed to dig her body, and bring it above ground. Pieces of her flesh, lying on the ground, is collected and because she has no face, it is put back on the front of her head, and bundled up. Now readers, imagine that is your mother, or your daughter, or sister, or even you, yourself.

DNA is not accepted in Islam, but at least 4 witnesses of reputable character, should give testimony of the actual penetration of the sexual intercourse to convict him. You might ask, who has sexual intercourse in front of 4 witnesses? I can also ask you "how can you consider 4 men watching others' sexual intercourse, as reputable characters?".But, there is no question or denying that this is not a traditonal, customary, cultural or a kangaroo court, but a legal Islamic court, with legal Islamic judges and legal expert Islamic officials, in the muslim state of Bakori ( Nigeria), of the legal Government, democratically elected by the Muslim citizens of this state. These are the undeniable authentic facts, which no amount of words or actions can ever repudiate.

Hear the deafening silence of the 1 billion muslims worldwide, who are in a vigorous fit of inactivity, calmly pretending not to know. But, the balance 5/6th of the world, (1.5 billion Christians, 1.1 billion Taoists, 1 billion Hindus, 700 million Bhuddists and others) can do something to stop this barbarism of the middle-east.

Jesus on the greatest Commandment and Judgement Day:

'Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"

Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and the greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

(Matthew 22:34-40, Mark 12:28-31)

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothers and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger adn you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick, and in prison and you did not look after me.

They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

(Matthew 25:31-46)

soja- you posted-
" 2:87 The Quran states, "To Moses We gave the Scriptures and after him We sent other apostles. We gave Jesus son of Mary veritable signs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit."
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i can understand how there migh be confusion on this from a christian perspective
possibly the cloeset one could come would be the 'spirit of holiness' as regards gabriel-

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it says..."SUPPORTED Him with Ruh-ul-Quddus(Gabriel-Jibreel)
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i just wanted to clarify the usage of that particular phrase- since it is fraught with heavy meaning for christians that are into necessarily the sense communicated in islam-

it would be easily confused, as being the same holy spirit (parokletos formerly expounded upon)

this s an exellent article i found on the subject
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The word spirit is connected with breath and, therefore, with air. The breath is what keeps us alive and yet air was a mystery in that it was invisible. Spirit, therefore, stands for something very subtle. It refers to inner experiences - consciousness, conscience and will. It is responsible for revelation, inspiration, intuition and insight as opposed to knowledge which comes through the outer senses. The Spirit is by the Command of Allah:-

"They ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little." 17:85

"It is naught save mercy from thy Lord." 17:87

We may suppose that it refers to something very fundamental which cannot be explained in terms of anything else. It is by or comes by the command of Allah. It may refer to a fundamental force in the Universe which carries information or Truth, for Allah has created everything with his Word and with Truth. It is likely that the stage by stage condensation of the Spirit is responsible for all levels of the heavens and earths.

"Allah it is who created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof. The Commandment cometh down among them slowly, that ye may know that Allah is able to do all things, and that Allah surroundeth all things in knowledge." 65:12

"But His command when he intendeth a thing, is only that he says unto it: Be! And it is " 36:82

"He created the heavens and the earth with truth, and He shaped you and made good your shapes and unto Him is the journeying." 64:3 and 6:73

"His Word is Truth, and His will be the Sovereignty on the day when the trumpet is blown." 6:74

The Spirit ascends into Heaven and descends into the earth.

"From Allah, Lord of the Ascending Stairways whereby the angels and the spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years." 70:3-4

"The Night of Power is better than a thousand months. The angels and the Spirit descend therein by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees. Peace until the rising of the Dawn." 97:3-5

These two verses speak about two different cycles of events - there appears to be a spiritual circulation.

"Lord of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, the Beneficent; with Whom none can argue. On the Day when the angels and the Spirit stand arrayed, they speak not, saving him whom the Beneficent allows and who speaks right. That is the True Day. So whoso will should seek recourse unto his Lord." 78:38

This refers to the Final Day of Judgement. The Universe itself is a cycle and will be wound up (28:88). Things begin with the Spirit and end with it. The Divine Spirit has been breathed into man and this is what gives him consciousness:-

"So when I have made him (man) and have breathed into him of My Spirit, do ye (angels) fall down, prostrating yourselves unto him." 15:29 also 38:72

"He directed the ordinance from the heavens unto the earth; then it ascends unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon. Such is the knower of the invisible and the visible, the Mighty, the Merciful, who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay; then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid; then He fashioned him and breathed into him of His spirit; and appointed for you hearing, and sight and hearts. Small thanks give ye! And they say: When we are lost in the earth, how can we then be re-created? Nay but they are disbelievers in the meeting with their Lord." 32:7-10

Note: -

(1) the change of person from the third to the second - he has become aware of himself. He has received some of the qualities of the creator.

(2) Three faculties are mentioned - hearing, seeing and feeling. These should be understood as referring not just to outer senses, but to inner ones, in particular to conscience, consciousness and will.

(3) that "small thanks" refers to ungratefulness - people do not act according to the spirit in them. The spirit has become dormant.

(4) The possibility of resurrection is connected with the spirit.

However, we have to distinguish Nafs (soul) from Ruh (spirit). Whereas the Spirit is a Universal principle, each person has his own soul and it can degenerate or it can be made to grow.

"Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain has spread abroad a multitude of men and women." 4:1 and 7:189

"And the soul and Him who perfected it and inspired it with (conscience of) what is wrong for it and what is right for it. He indeed is successful who causes it to grow, and he indeed is a failure who stunts it." 91:7-10

"Surely We created man in the best stature, then We reduced him to the lowest of the low, save those who believe and do good works and theirs is a reward unfailing. So who henceforth will give the lie to thee about the judgement? Is not Allah the most conclusive of all judges?" 95:4-8

"Whosoever does right, it is only for the good of his own soul that he does right, and whosoever errs, errs only to its hurt. No laden soul can bear another's load. We never punish until We have sent a messenger." 17:15

Also 2:223,231, 3:25,30, 5:105, 6:12,20,70,164, 7:53, 9:42, 10:108, 11:21, 14:51, 20:15 and many more.

The soul may be regarded as a local organisation of the spirit and contains the information relating to the individual (his inherited and acquired characteristics and those created by his own efforts at integration). That consciousness is connected with the soul can be seen from the fact that sleep and death are alike:-

"Allah receives souls at the time of their death, and the soul which dies not in its sleep. He keeps that soul for which he has ordained death and dismisses the rest till an appointed term. Lo! Herein verily are signs for people who take thought." 39:42

The existence of the Spirit within man makes him a Vicegerent, a person who ought to be serving Allah, and exercising the faculties he has received on behalf of Allah. He was made as an instrument through which Allah can act more directly.

"When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a Vicegerent in the earth, they said: Wilt Thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not. And He taught Adam all the Names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform me of the Names of these if ye are truthful. They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, Wise." 2:30-32.

Man, having been given some of the divine powers could act partly independently with his own initiative, creativity and sense of responsibility, though still dependent for these powers on Allah. This independence is not possible for the angels. In particular man was given the capacity to form concepts (the Names may also refer to the Attributes of Allah). It is this which gave him the power to do the evil and chaos which the angels feared, but Allah knew better. He could through experiences and trials lead them towards voluntary surrender.

The spirit exists in man as a Trust:-

"Lo! We offered the Trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! He has proved a tyrant and a fool." 33:72

Here again we see that man is accused of not allowing it operate on behalf of God.

"Nay verily man is rebellious that he thinks himself independent. lo! Unto thy Lord is the return." 96:6-8

This dormant spirit in man can be reactivated by the Messengers. These are persons who have already been chosen by Allah to be guided by the Spirit.

"He sends down the angels with the Spirit of His Command unto whom He will of His bondmen saying: Warn mankind that there is no god save Me, so keep your duty unto Me. He hath created the heavens and the earth with truth. High be He exalted above all that they associate with Him." 16:2-3

"The Exalter of ranks, the lord of the Throne, He casts the Spirit of His command upon whom He will of His slaves, that He may warn of the Day of Meeting." 40:15

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and the Messenger when He calls you to that which quickens you (brings you alive), and know that Allah comes in between the man and his own heart, and that He it is unto Whom ye will be gathered." 8:24

"Even as We have sent unto you a messenger from among you, who recites unto you Our revelations and causes you to grow, and teaches you the Scripture and Wisdom, and teaches you that which ye knew not." 2:151

Muhammad was such a messenger:-

"Say (O Muhammad): The Holy Spirit hath revealed it (the Quran) from thy Lord with Truth, that it may confirm the faith of those who believe and as a guidance and Good Tidings (gospels) for those who have Surrendered (to Allah)." 16:102

"And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our Command. Thou knowest not what the Scripture was nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! Thou verily dost guide unto a right path., the path of Allah, unto whom belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Do not all things reach Allah at last?" 42:52-53

"And lo! It (the Quran) is a revelation of the Lord of the Worlds which the True Spirit hath brought down upon thy heart, that thou mayest be one of the warners in plain Arabic speech." 26:192-195

Note that there is a connection between the notion of Spirit and Light. The spiritual regeneration or resurrection is brought about thus:-

"Is he who was dead and We have raised him unto life, and set for him a light wherein he walks among men, as him whose similitude is in utter darkness whence he cannot emerge? Thus is their conduct made fair seeming for the disbelievers." 6:123

Other Prophets were also inspired:-

"Lo! We inspire thee as We inspired Noah and the Prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms. And messengers We have mentioned unto thee before and messengers We have not mentioned unto thee; and Allah spake directly unto Moses." 5:163-164 and many other verses.

Believers are also strengthened with the Spirit:-

"Thou wilt not find folk who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving those who oppose Allah and His messenger, even though they be their fathers or their sons or their brethren or their clan. As for such, He hath written faith upon their hearts and had strengthened them with the Sprit from Him, and He will bring them into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide. Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him. They are Allah's Party. Lo! Is it not Allah's Party who are the successful?" 58:22 Compare this with 89:27-30

Jesus was such a Messenger:-

"And verily We gave unto Moses the scripture and we caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs, and We supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it ever so, that when there comes unto you a messenger from Allah with that which you yourselves desire not, you grow arrogant, and some disbelieve and some you slay." 2:87

"And those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted above others in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs and We supported him with the Holy Spirit. And if Allah had so willed it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proof had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and so disbelieving. And if Allah had so willed they would not have fought one with another, but Allah does what He will." 2:253

"When Allah said: O Jesus son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel and when I inspired the disciples saying: Believe in Me and My Messenger, they said: We believe. Bear witness that we have surrendered unto Thee (i.e become muslim)" 5:110-111

"And when Jesus, son of Mary, said; O children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was revealed before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who comes after me, whose name is the Praised One. yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say; This is mere magic." 61:6 See also 3:50

"But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah and bear thou witness that we have surrendered unto Him (i.e become muslim)." 3:52

Since, the Spirit is in all human beings, the Quran does not regard Jesus as being more than human.

"The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers the like of whom had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat food. See how We make the revelations clear for them and see how they turn away!" 5:75

"O people of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him." 4:171

"Lo! The likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! And he is." 3:59

This is, of course, how Allah crated all things.

"When the angel said: O Mary! Lo! Allah gives thee glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah)." 3:45

"Then We sent unto her (Mary) Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God-fearing. He said: I am only a Messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. She said: How can I have a son when no mortal has touched me, neither have I been unchaste? He said: So it will be. Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And it will be that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is thing ordained." 19:17-21

Note that:-

1. The Spirit is a Messenger from God, something which transmits truth.

2. The Spirit appeared in the form of a man. This appearance has been called Gabriel. Gabriel is said to be an Archangel made of spirit as angels are made of light and jinn of fire.

3. Jesus is the Messiah, and a Revelation for mankind which had been pre-ordained. He is a revelation in the same sense that the Quran is a revelation.

The conception of Jesus is described as follows:-

"And she who was chaste, therefore We breathed into her something of Our Spirit and made her and her son a token for all people." 21:91 and also 66:12

This is, of course, how Allah introduced the Spirit into man.

"Remember when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of resurrection. Then unto Me ye will all return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ." 3:55

Being a word and spirit from Allah, he was not crucified though it seemed so outwardly.:-

"And because of their saying: We slew the messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, Allah's Messenger - They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise." 4:157-158

So there need really be no argument between Muslim and Christian - it appeared unto them that Jesus had been crucified and died. The reason why the Quran denies that Jesus was crucified seems to be as follows: - Christians think that it is the sacrifice of Jesus which was necessary to save them from Hell, that by so doing he paid for their sins. This idea also made it necessary to think of Jesus as a god, son of God, which the Quran denies. This sacrifice was previously symbolised by the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice his son. But, in fact, the son was substituted by a lamb. They also suppose that he was resurrected after this death and it is this which gives proof that resurrection is possible. But the Islamic position is that if Jesus died and was revived, then there was really no sacrifice. It still remains true that everyone will be judged by their own deeds. People may, however repent and ask for forgiveness. Allah is quite able to forgive sins without the sacrifices of a mediator. Christians have made Jesus the focus of their religion whereas Jesus himself wanted them to focus on God (John 17:3-6,12 Matthew 7:21-23). The gist of his teaching was about how spiritual resurrection could be obtained within this life (See John 1:12-13, 3:3-7). Final resurrection will take place in any case and may lead you to Hell.

It is true that Jesus devoted his life to Allah and to teaching people and was willing to bear their persecution, but this is also true of other Prophets. The Christian position is that God loved the world so much that he sent His son (John 3:16) who also loved mankind so much that he was willing to sacrifice himself for them (John 15:13). The position of the Quran is that all Prophets and Messengers and their scriptures were sent to mankind as a Mercy from Allah (6:12, 6:54,157, 7:203, 21:107 and many more). It is this love which should induce in man a reciprocal love and this in turn should lead to surrender and resurrection. The Quran assumes that such love exists:-

"Say (O Muhammad unto mankind): If you love Allah, follow me. Allah will love you and forgive your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

Resurrection through love is also seen in the following verse:-

"And when Abraham said: My Lord! Show me how Thou givest life to the dead, He said: Dost thou not believe? Abraham said: Yea, but I ask in order that my heart may be at ease. His Lord said: Take four of the birds and cause them to incline unto thee, then place a part of them on each hill, then call them, they will come to thee in haste. And know that Allah is Mighty, Wise." 2:260

However, Jesus is a sign of the Day of Resurrection.

"And lo! Verily, he is a Sign of the Hour. So doubt not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the Straight Path." 43:61

This may mean several things: - that his return will be the beginning of the Day of Resurrection which may imply a world-wide spiritual revival or the Final Day of Judgement; that he is an example of the spiritual resurrection; that he represents the technique mentioned in 2:260 above. Note the Straight Path.

Since resurrection is connected with the spirit, there are three ways in which this can be understood:-

(1) the spiritual resurrection of individuals (who are spiritually dead). e.g. 6:123

(2) the spiritual regeneration of a people or community.

(3) The Resurrection of all humanity including all those who have died physically in the past.

The spiritually unregenerate individual, being spiritually dead will, on physical death, cease to exist until the Day of Resurrection when he will be revived. But since this a period of unconsciousness, no time will have passed.

"And on the day when the Hour riseth the guilty will vow that they tarried but an hour - thus were they ever deceived. But those to whom knowledge and faith are given will say: The truth is, ye have tarried by Allah's decree until the Day of Resurrection. This is the day of Resurrection, but you used not to know." 30:55-56 See also 10:46, 17:52, 23:112-114 etc.

It is possible that there is a series of death and reincarnation:-

"Thou causest the night to pass into day, and Thou causest the day to pass into night. And Thou bringest forth the living from the dead, and Thou bringest forth the dead from the living. And Thou givest sustenance to whom Thou choosest without stint." 3:27

"Ye shall journey from plane to plane." 84:19

But from the Islamic point of view, if you are not conscious of your past lives then this idea is meaningless. As far as the individual is concerned there are just three conditions: - the time before birth, this life, and the hereafter.

"How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave you life. Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return." 2:28

The Day of Resurrection is the Day when a person becomes conscious of his past life.

"And the trumpet is blown. This is the threatened Day. And every soul comes along with it a driver and a witness. (And it is said): Thou wast in heedlessness of this. Now We have removed from thee thy covering, and piercing is thy sight this day." 50:20-22

However, the people of faith, as we see from 30:56 above, are different:-

"Think not of those, who are slain in the way of Allah, as dead. Nay, they are living. With their Lord they have provision." 3:169

"Whoso obeys Allah and the Messenger, they are with those unto whom Allah has shown favour, of the Prophets and the saints, and the martyrs and the righteous. The best of company are they." 4:69

Though this immortality is not explicitly stated about the others, it a question of understanding what "slain in the way of Allah" means. It could mean one who has "died to this world" in so far as ambitions, greed etc are concerned - he has sacrificed these in the service of Allah. All these may be regarded as being alive in some other state. It could be that they might also reincarnate as teachers and guides as Jesus is expected to do.

As far as communities are concerned, the Quran appears to recognise the rise and fall of civilisations. The rise initially requires a spiritual impulse. But the deterioration takes place automatically by material laws (the Second Law of Thermodynamics). Ordinary experience shows that conscious efforts are required to learn anything new, but that things become habitual, automatic, tradition bound and deteriorate. This is indicated in verses such as the following:-

"Systems have passed away before you. Do but travel in the land and see the nature of the consequences for those who did deny (the Messengers)." 3:137

"O mankind! If ye are in doubt concerning the Resurrection, then lo!.... And thou seest the earth barren, but when We send down rain thereon, it doth thrill and swell and put forth every lovely kind. That is because Allah, He is the Truth. Lo! He quickeneth the dead, and lo! He is Able to do all things." 21:5-6

"And who sends down water from the sky in due measure, and We revive a dead land therewith. Even so will you be brought forth." 43:11 See also 36:33 and 50:11

"If He will He can remove you and cause what He will to follow after you, even as He raised you from the seed of other folk. Lo! that which ye are promised will surely come to pass, and ye cannot escape." 6:134-135 See also 4:133

"And every nation (or community) has its term. When its terms comes they cannot put it off an hour, nor yet advance it." Quran 7:34

"And for every nation there is a messenger. And when their messenger comes (on the Day of judgement) it will be judged between them fairly, and they will not be wronged." 10:48

"For every message there is a term, and soon shall ye know it." Quran 6:67

The Final Day of Judgement is symbolically described thus:-

"And the trumpet is blown, and all who are in the heavens and the earth swoon away save him whom Allah wills. Then it is blown a second time, and behold them standing waiting! And the earth shines with the light of her Lord, and the Book is set up, and the Prophets and the witnesses are brought, and it is judged between them with truth, and they are not wronged. And each soul is paid in full for what it did." 39:68-70

"Have they not seen how many generations We destroyed before them which indeed return not unto them. But all without exception will be brought before Us." 36:31-32

There is some controversy about whether this is a physical resurrection (reincarnation) or a purely spiritual one. It depends on how the following is interpreted:-

"Until when death comes unto one of them, he says: My Lord! Send me back, that I may do right in that which I have left behind. But nay! It is but a word that he speaks; and behind them is a Barrier until the day when they are raised. And when the trumpet is blown there will be no kinship among them that day, nor will they ask of one another. Then those whose scales are heavy, they are the successful. And those whose scales are light are those who lose their souls in hell abiding." 23:99-103

Perhaps it does not really matter whether it is a reincarnation or not because everyone will see the world they come to as being just as solid and real as this one.

After the resurrection and Judgement:-

"And ye will be of three kinds: those on the right hand.... those on the left hand.... And the Foremost in the race, the foremost in the race; those are they who will be brought nigh in Gardens of delight; a multitude of those of old and a few of those of later time..." 56:7-14

It is likely that it is these from among the Foremost who descend again into the physical plane as Messengers. Jesus, for instance, is expected to return."

peace

To all Muslims:

Sermon on the Mount contd...

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way as you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognise them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus by their fruit you will recognise them.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is the like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundations on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them in practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law."

(Matthew chapter 7)

The Ten Commandments from the Old Testament and the Sermon on the Mount summarise the teachings of Christianity.

It is my hope that the Heavenly Father, through the power of the Holy Spirit, in the name of Jesus Christ may open the minds and hearts of all Muslims who read this. I'm sharing the gem of Christian teaching as a gesture for dialogue between Christians and Muslims. We live in a world where Christians and Muslims need each other and we need to respect each other genuinely. Christians need to say where they come from in order for the Muslim to understand better. And Christians need to know where the Muslims come from in order to understand them better.

In my personal opinion common ground should be worked out by finding passages in the Quran that resonate with Christian thought. May the On Faith forum foster greater understanding between Christians and Muslims based on what we share in common!

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australi

were posting at basically the same time, so your sermon wasnt there -

that illustrates my point exactly-

ive had matthew 6 memorized for decades-
yet the version you printed has some small subtle differences from what i have memorized

how can the word of the god be so mutable?

sorry that was victoria

elaborating further on existing texts- as Jesus(ata) did, is simply not a denunciation of the violence of the prohpets before him.
which was the basis of my point.

even augustine had to add to the words of Jesus(ata) with his just war theory- because to literally follow the teachings of turning the other cheek, led christians defenseless against aggressors.

the qu'ram elaborates on full justice- the holistic man- not just the ideal.
Jesus(may ALLAH be very pleased with him) covered the IDEALS to aspire to- but it as an incomplete message.
the qu'ran fulfills and fleshes out the very esoteric message of Jesus(ata) in a very dnamic and practical way-

for instance- i personally have sat with a highlighter and circled EVERY instant in the bible where Jesus(ata) made distinctions between his selfhood, and the god- and referred to himself as a man- and it was over a hundred.

his own words state his separateness from the god.
the qu'ran, also added edification to messages brought by previous prophets- without the necessity of ever discrediting or disavowing any of them.
that is what is so beautiful about it.

just a few corrections-

david was most absolutely a prophet
he was the author of the book of psalms-
there are many many prophets in the OT that did some violence- joshua, moses, david...
ALL prophets of god are recognized and respected in islam-
the OT doesnt actually relate the history of the jewish people, mostly its prophets- there are certainly other sources of jewish history and the bible is by no means a complete or comprehensive history.

this is the catholic dictionary defintion of the word parokletos from which the word holy spirit has been wrongly applied-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paraclete
Paraclete, COMFORTER (L. CONSOLATOR; Greek parakletos) occurs only in St. John (14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7), has been variously translated "ADVOCATE", "INTERCESSOR", "TEACHER, "HELPER", "COMFORTER". This last rendering, though at variance with the passive form of the Greek, is justified by the Hellenistic usage, a number of ancient versions, patristic and liturgical authority, and the evident needs of the Johannine context.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

hindus consider the bhagavad gita (song of god) a sacred text soja- you diminish it by relegating it to an epic-
it is drawn from the mahabharata, but it is a doctrine elaborating on vedantic practices- and yogic perfection-

it takes place on a battlefield when arjuna (the warriro of warriors)is about to fight his relatives, and krishna(the incarnation of the godhead) instructs him on how to advance spiritually and live righteously
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It is interesting to note that the two foremost doctrines of Christianity as found in the Bible in Matthew, chapter 22, verses 37 and 39 which say: Love thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul and with all thy mind; and love thy neighbor as thyself are not minimized but completely validated by the Bhagavad-Gita. The book Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, volume six, page 696 states, " It is certain that portions of the Bhagavad-Gita in which the doctrine of bhakti or love of God is revealed are pre-Christian and of indigenous Indian origin. This is not only limited to the devotional portions; but the entirety of the Bhagavad-Gita is pre-Christian."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

so you see, even the hindus are claiming that the ideas of Jesus(ata) were pre-dated some millenia by the gita!

as to your contention that arjuna is not a historical figure, this has been studied to death.
the time sequences are historically validated, even down to the astronmical confirmations!

as to the grace with which christians have historically reacted to the corrections provided by the qu'ran, id say the victims of the crusaders would beg to differ.

as ive stated countless times soja-
THIS IS NOT A COMPETITION

one thing you never see on these boards is muslims trying to 'prove' the 'superiority' of islam to non-muslims.

we can only present the beauty and comprehensive and complete whole of it- some eloquently and knowledgeably (like HL) some inarticulately (like myself)

a major difference that i find between islam and christianity is the lack of intercessory help-
we stand alone and fully responsible for all of our actions before ALLAH on judgement day.

to me., it has inspired me to be acutely aware of all actions, thoughts, etc without a spiritual safety net (which i consider the intercession of a savior at the end to be)

i never got that idea when i was a christian-

i never believed that was the message of Jesus(ata) becuase it was his words that i gave the wieght of my faith too- not the added words ( i was DEFINITELY not pauline!) of after commentators.

all of the intercession doctrine in christianity is post acts-

the entire philosophy of the blood sacrifice, the meaning of it- dying for the sins of mankind- dont come from the words ofJesus(ata) but from his followers.

even the examples youve given are all derived from the disciples-(except for paul, and his 'spiritual' encounter with Jesus(ata) 3 count them-3 completely conflicting accounts of that meeting!!!) and they WERE NOT PROPHETS but fallible men!
there are over 40 known authors of the one book called the bible!

that is why in islam, the words of men who followed the Prophet(pbuh) are secondary to the word of ALLAH expressed clearly in the qu'ran.

there is only one author of the qu'ran, and that is the god- through gabriel-to Muhammad(pbuh).
there is only one qu'ran, not one jot or tittle has been altered, it has been protected by ALLAH to its present perfect true form.

a unique and singular claim.

one thing that has always bothered me is that there are over 200 translatons of the bible (in english) and the meanings and nuances can vary widely-

just look at a revised edition before 1954- or the douay- or the new world (jehovahs witness) bible and a king james- (look at the front page before the 40s, it actually is ascribed to the glory of king james!!! not god!!!)

the differences in basic philosophy are astounding!

and finally- the qu'ran does not indulge in unkind accusations.
to SAY SO is unkind, and deeply disrespectful of our holy qu'ran.

but, apparently, it is true, otherwise there wouldn't be hundreds of different versons of the bible-
which one is the true pure unadulterated version?

the truth may appear to be unkind on the surface, because it is painful to face-

but ultimately it is the greatest kindness to lead one to unadulterated undiluted uncompromised truth.

To all Muslims:

Sermon on the Mount contd...

'Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honoured by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. They your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

(PS: Verses 9-15 was posted earlier)

When you fast, do not look sombre as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you fast, put oil on your head, and wash your face, so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

No-one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. It not life more important than food, and the body more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies fo the field grow. They do not labour or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendour was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the fielf, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat? or 'What shall we drink?" or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things and your heavenly Father knowns that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. EAch day has enough trouble of its own."

(Matthew chapter 6)

To all Muslims:

Sermon on the Mount contd...

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgement. But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Therefore if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his hear. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord. But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's thron; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes' and your 'No' be 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

(Matthew 5:21-37)

PS: Verses 5:38-48 were posted earlier.

To all Muslims:

Although I am not a Christian evangelist, I wish to share here the Sermon on the Mount, which represents the pinnacle of the teachings of Jesus Christ, because 1. I have referred to it several times over the past year in connection with Christian teachings (as proof that Jesus taught no violence whenever Christianity was mentioned as being associated with violence), 2. The Quran states, "To Moses We gave the Scriptures and after him We sent other apostles. We gave Jesus son of Mary veritable signs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Will you then scorn each apostle whose message does not suit your fancies, charging some with imposture and slaying others?" (2:87,252), 3. It has inspired not only Christians but also people of other faiths (Gandhi is only famous example among many others), and 4. Some of the thoughts expressed by Ms Pamela Taylor in her essay here are central to the Sermon.

Matthew chapters 5-7:

"Now when he saw the crowd, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, and he began to teach them saying:

Blessed are the poor (humble) in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst
for righteousness,
for they will be filled.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.

Blessed are teh peacemakers,
for they will be called teh sons of God.

Blessed are those who are persecuted
because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.

You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practises and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

(Matthew 5:1-20)

To be contd...

HL:

Thank you for your very detailed response and explanations.

In accordance with what is written in the Book of Acts, "Then Peter began to speak: "I now realise how true it is that God does not show favouritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right." (Acts, 10:34-35), the Second Vatican Council recognises that human beings of different religions can be saved. In the Book of Revelation, "I will give to everyone according to what he has done." (Rev 22:12)

As a Christian I believe Jesus Christ brings grace and truth into my life and gives me assistance through the power of the Holy Spirit, in leading the life God would have me live. And if I have done my very best and yet fail by God's standards of holiness and purity, the death of Jesus Christ for my sins makes it up for me, giving me entry into heaven. It is not meant to be a free pass in spite of living a life of sin, but merely a compensation for not achieving the holiness that is required by God. The reward from God will always be only in accordance with what I have actually done. I will have to live forever with whatever I have done, whether good or bad. It is both a horrifying and comforting thought. The record of my imperfect life is as much eternal as all the good things I might have done.

What I found beautiful in the Quran is the repeated injunction to have faith in God and do good works. It is mentioned in the Bible of course - 'faith without works is dead,(What good is it my brothers if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? ..Faith by itself if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.)'and the repeated commandment of Jesus to love one another as He loved (John chapters 14-17), as the only proof of love for Him and how He counts any good done to the least of human beings as being done for Him.

Best wishes
Soja

Dear Victoria

Thanks for explaining that ‘Lepidoptera’ was the ‘butterfly lady’ you wrote to.

The Quranic verses I cited does not ‘excite’ me in the least bit. I do not base my Christian beliefs based on what is written about Jesus or the Old Testament prophets in the Quran. I was merely responding to Pamela Taylor’s essay and quoting verses that contradict her claims about particular core values in Islam. You will notice that I have quoted from different chapters of the Quran to show that the contradictions have been repeated in several instances. Of course I’m willing to accept all that is beautiful in the Quran, most of all to accept all that is beautiful and good in Muslims. What surprised me most while reading the Quran is that I could trace almost all the beautiful passages to the Bible.

You are right, Jesus Christ simply taught what He came to teach. You would also notice that He referred to the teaching of the Prophets in the Old Testament before declaring how He meant to take the teaching further in accordance with God. So in the Sermon on the Mount He said, “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:38-48)

In the Old Testament there are Prophets, kings and priests. David was a king, not a prophet. In 2 Samuel, chapter 12, Nathan, the prophet rebukes David, the king. David fought wars as a ruler, but he was much more than just a warrior. The Old Testament relates the history of the Jewish people in a chronological order (which includes history of wars in the past tense without any injunction to fight wars in the future) till the coming of Jesus Christ, which for me as a Christian is the beginning of Christianity. Mohammad was born six centuries after the birth of Christianity. Considering the Quran refers to Jesus Christ, it would be expected that His teachings representing the New Testament would put the Old Testament prophets in their proper historical and religious context.
Judaism at the time of Jesus was quite different from the Judaism in the days of David. Judaism could be considered a very dynamic religion. Christianity likewise was left with room for growth when Jesus claimed that He would send the Holy Spirit after He was gone to guide and teach His followers.

Arjuna of the Bhagavad Gita is not a historical figure. (The Mahabharata is an epic not a historical text.) The spiritual instruction contained in it is not part of a war manual. The eighteen chapters give instructions on many aspects of spiritual life and ways to realize God.

I agree, the Scripture of no religion consists in criticizing others. Buddha did not claim that the Hindus had got their Scripture wrong and did not rewrite it for them in his own way. His personal experience became the foundation for a new religion. I wonder though why the Quran refers more than once to the people of ‘The Book’ and accuse them of having distorted their own Scripture. Not a very kind thing to do, if you asked me. And yet the people of 'The Book' take the criticism with such good grace!

Best wishes
Soja

Soja,

The Christians tell us that there is no salvation except through the blood of Jesus. In other words there is no heaven for you Muslims unless you believe this dogma of ‘blood sacrifice.’ And from reading your post it seems to me that you are trying to project this concept of exclusion on Islam too; meaning that salvation in Islam is for the Muslims only. However, the word Islam means "submission", or the total surrender of oneself to God and not just a name. An adherent of Islam is known as a Muslim, meaning "one who submits, ‘aslama” in arabic, to God." Some translators of the Quran are not consistent when it comes to translating this word and others like it such as Muslim, Islam and aslama. Sometimes they leave the word as it is and sometimes they put in the meaning or the concept of the word.

I find Muhammad Assad more consistent in his translation of those words. He explains this concept in the following verse:

[2: 112] Yea, indeed: everyone who surrenders his whole being unto God {aslama},* and is a doer of good withal, shall have his reward with his Sustainer; and all such need have no fear, and neither shall they grieve.**

*Lit., "who surrenders his face unto God". Since the face of a person is the most expressive part of his body, it is used in classical Arabic to denote one's whole personality, or whole being. This expression, repeated in the Qur'an several times, provides a perfect definition of Islam, which derived from the root-verb aslama, "he surrendered himself" -means "self-surrender [to God]": and it is in this sense that the terms Islam and Muslim are used throughout the Quran. (For a full discussion of this concept, see my note on 68 :35, where the expression Muslim occurs for the first time in the chronological order of revelation.)

**Thus, according to the Qur'an, salvation is not reserved for any particular "denomination", but is open to everyone who consciously realizes the oneness of God surrenders himself to His will and, by living righteously, gives practical effect to this spiritual attitude.

[68:35] or should We, perchance, treat those who surrender themselves unto Us {aslamu, plural of aslama} * as [We would treat] those who remain lost in sin?

* This is the earliest occurrence of the term muslimun (sing. muslim) in the history of Qur'anic revelation. Throughout this work, I have translated the terms muslim and islam in accordance with their original connotations, namely, "one who surrenders [or "has surrendered"] himself to God", and "man's self-surrender to God"; the same holds good of all forms of the verb aslama occurring in the 'Qur'an. It should be borne in mind that the "institutionalized" use of these terms - that is, their exclusive application to the followers of the Prophet Muhammad - represents a definitely post-Qur'anic development and, hence, must be avoided in a translation of the Qur'an.

So, we should not be surprised when God in the Quran refers to Abraham and other prophets as a Muslim as in:

[3:67] Abraham was neither a "Jew" nor a "Christian", but was one who turned away from all that is false, having surrendered himself unto God {Muslim}; and he was not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him.

Also, the disciples of Jesus are referred to as Muslims in this verse:

[3:52] And when Jesus became aware of their refusal(meaning the Jws)to acknowledge the truth, he asked: "Who will be my helpers in God's cause?" The disciples replied: "We shall be [thy] helpers [in the cause] of God! We believe in God: and bear thou witness that we have surrendered ourselves unto Him {Muslimun, plural of Muslim}.

Also Jacob appealed to his sons to die only in a state of Islam, surrender to God:

[2:132] And this very thing did Abraham bequeath unto his children, and [so did] Jacob: "O my children! Behold, God has granted you the purest faith; so do not allow death to overtake you ere you have surrendered yourselves unto Him {Muslimun}."

[2:133] Nay, but you [yourselves, O children of Israel,] bear witness that when death was approaching Jacob, he said unto his sons: "Whom will you worship after I am gone?" They answered: "We will worship thy God, the God of thy forefathers Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, the One God; and unto Him we surrender ourselves {Muslimun}."

So, in the same spirit, what you have posted in verses 3:19 and 3:84 is right in transliteration but not in concept. The meaning of the words should be what the Quran as a whole is trying to convey and not limited to a narrow definition by the translator.

[3:19] Behold, the only [true] religion in the sight of God is [man's] self-surrender unto Him {Islam}; and those who were vouchsafed revelation aforetime* took, out of mutual jealousy, to divergent views [on this point] only after knowledge [thereof] had come unto them. ** But as for him who denies the truth of God's messages - behold, God is swift in reckoning!

*Most of the classical commentators are of the opinion that the people referred to are the followers of the Bible, or of parts of it - i.e., the Jews and the Christians. It is, however, highly probable that this passage bears a wider import and relates to all communities which base their views on a revealed scripture, extant in a partially corrupted form, with parts of it entirely lost.

**I.e., all these communities at first subscribed to the doctrine of God's oneness and held that man's self-surrender to Him (Islam in its original connotation) is the essence of all true religion. Their subsequent divergences were an outcome of sectarian pride and mutual exclusiveness.

[3:20] Thus, [O Prophet,] if they argue with thee, say, "I have surrendered my whole being unto God, and [so have] all who follow me!" - And ask those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime, as well as all unlettered people,* "Have you [too] surrendered yourselves unto Him?"
And if they surrender themselves unto Him, they are on the right path; but if they turn away - behold, thy duty is no more than to deliver the message: for God sees all that is in [the hearts of] His creatures.

*According to Razi, this refers to people who have no revealed scripture of their own.

[3: 78] And, behold, there are indeed some among them who distort the Bible with their tongues, so as to make you think that [what they say] is from the Bible, the while it is not from the Bible; and who say, "This is from God," the while it is not from God: and thus do they tell a lie about God, being well aware [that it is a lie].*

*Most of the commentators assume that this refers specifically to the Jews, whom the Qur'an frequently accuses of having deliberately corrupted the Old Testament. However, since the next two verses clearly relate to Jesus and to the false beliefs of the Christians regarding his nature and mission, we must conclude that both Jews and Christians are referred to in this passage. For this reason, the term al-kitab, which occurs three times in this sentence, has been rendered here as "the Bible". - According to Muhammad `Abduh (Manar III, 345), the above-mentioned distortion of the Bible does not necessarily presuppose a corruption of the text as such: it can also be brought about "by attributing to an expression a meaning other than the one which was originally intended". As an example, `Abduh quotes the metaphorical use, in the Gospels, of the term "my Father" with reference to God - by which term, as is evident from the Lord's Prayer, was obviously meant the "Father" - i.e., the Originator and Sustainer - of all mankind. Subsequently, however, some of those who claimed to be followers of Jesus lifted this expression from the realm of metaphor and "transferred it to the realm of positive reality with reference to Jesus alone": and thus they gave currency to the idea that he was literally "the son of God", that is, God incarnate.

[3:79] It is not conceivable that a human being unto whom God had granted revelation, and sound judgment, and prophethood, should thereafter have said unto people,* "Worship me beside God"; but rather [did he exhort them], "Become men of God** by spreading the knowledge of the divine writ, and by your own deep study [thereof]." (3: 80) And neither did he bid you to take the angels and the prophets for your lords:*** [for] would he bid you to deny the truth after you have surrendered yourselves unto God?

*This obvious reference to Jesus reads, literally, "It is not [possible] for a human being that God should grant him … and that thereafter he should say …". Zamakhshari regards the term hukm ("judgment" or "sound judgment") occurring in the above sentence as synonymous, in this context, with hikmah ("wisdom").

**According to Sibawayh (as quoted by Razi), a rabbani is "one who devotes himself exclusively to the endeavour to know the Sustainer (ar-rabb) and to obey Him": a connotation fairly close to the English expression "a man of God".

***I.e., to attribute divine or semi-divine powers to them: a categorical rejection of the adoration of saints and angelic beings.

[3:81] AND, LO, God accepted, through the prophets, this solemn pledge [from the followers of earlier revelation]:* "If, after all the revelation and the wisdom which I have vouchsafed unto you, there comes to you an apostle confirming the truth already in your possession, you must believe in him and succour him. Do you" - said He - "acknowledge and accept My bond on this condition?"
They answered: "We do acknowledge it." Said He: "Then bear witness [thereto], and I shall be your witness.** (3: 82) And, henceforth, all who turn away [from this pledge] - it is they, they who are truly iniquitous!"

*Lit., "the solemn pledge of the prophets". Zamakhshari holds that what is meant here is a pledge taken from the community as a whole: a pledge consisting in their acceptance of the messages conveyed through the prophets.

**Lit., "and I am with you among the witnesses".

[3:83] Do they seek, perchance, a faith other than in God,* although it is unto Him that whatever is in the heavens and on earth surrenders itself, willingly or unwillingly, since unto Him all must return?**

*Lit., "[any] other than God's religion".

**Lit., "will be returned". For an explanation of this sentence, see 13:15 and the corresponding notes.

[3:84] Say: "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants, and that which has been vouchsafed by their Sustainer unto Moses and Jesus and all the [other] prophets: we make no distinction between any of them. And unto Him do we surrender ourselves {Muslimun, plural of Muslim}."

[3:85] For, if one goes in search of a religion other than self-surrender unto God {Islam}, it will never be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the lost.

I hope that helped you understand the concept of those words which are often times used by some to mislead and confuse others.

Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia,

The koran is the problem when muslims really follow its teaching then we have big problems here in the USA. It could be argued that it is a treasonous book since it calls for the overthrow of all non-Muslim peoples by whatever means necessary.

hi soja- no they were 2 different answers for 2 people-
butterfly lady is what i call lepidopteryx-
lepidoptera are butterflies and moths.

why should these verses excite you in the least?

you have to read the surrounding verses-

so-
"When they are told: 'Follow what God has revealed,' they reply: 'We will follow what our fathers practised,' even though their fathers understood nothing and had no guidance."

becomes quite different when TAKEN IN CONTEXT-

"2:169- before and after makes it clear that those who are following shaitan, and then WRONGLY following blindly the ways of their fathers, are out of step with what ALLAH exhorts them to do-

[2:168] O people, eat from the earth's products all that is lawful and good, and do not follow the steps of Satan; he is your most ardent enemy.

[2:169] He only commands you to commit evil and vice, and to say about GOD what you do not know.

[2:170] When they are told, "Follow what GOD has revealed herein," they say, "We follow only what we found our parents doing." What if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?

[2:171] The example of such disbelievers is that of parrots who repeat what they hear of sounds and calls, without understanding. Deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand. "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

see how the opposite meaning is actually the true ine/
thats the danger of taking a sentence out of its body and presenting it as a complete thought

it seems to be the only way people can justify their criticism

if your cirticism were valid, you could simply post complete thoughts- but they're all one liners

also, Jesus(ata) never dicredited the violence of the prophets before him- he had a different message but you never heard him remark anywhere- david went to war he was violent- or any such thing.

buddha also never discredited krishna on his battlefield experience with arjuna

your contentions would only make sense if the prophets discredited or spoke against the actions of their predecessors- which they did not.

Meaningful and honest dialogue:

If the killing of animals for food was anathema to me and I wanted to adopt the principle, which is an integral part of the tenets of Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism, I could not try to enter into a dialogue with them with the claim that it was a core value of Christianity. I must in such instance be prepared for Hindus, Buddhists and Jains to correct me and point to my false claim unless I could quote the Bible to substantiate my claim. If they were familiar with the Bible they could immediately quote the verses in which it becomes clear that eating meat was very much part of the Jewish tradition and Jesus not only ate meat Himself, He never forbade the killing of animals for food.

'Forgive as you would be forgiven' is part of the prayer Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount:

Jesus said, This, then is how you should pray:

'Our Father in heaven,
holy be Your name,
Your kingdom come,
Your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread,
Forgive us our sins
As we forgive those who sin against us.
Do not lead us into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.'

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.'

(Matthew 6:9-15)

Did one Anonymous on 19 November 2007 1:28 AM address me as BUTTERFLY LADY- SOJA- or was it supposed to be two different persons?

I'm all for dialoguing with Islam, except that there is no political parallel in Christianity to dialogue with. It is of course possible to find common ground with verses in the Quran that reflect the same thoughts expressed in the Old and New Testament.

The Quran states, 'He has revealed to you the Book with the Truth, confirming the scriptures which preceded it; for He has already revealed the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of mankind, and the distinction between right and wrong.' (3:2-4)

In fact I have even no problem with Muslims following their own way to God. I don't get upset even when I read the following in the Quran:

'Those who say, 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth split asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one!' (19:88)

When they are told: 'Follow what God has revealed,' they reply: 'We will follow what our fathers practised,' even though their fathers understood nothing and had no guidance.' (2:169)

'The only true faith in God's sight is Islam.' (3:19)

'To those who were given the Scriptures and to the Gentiles say: 'Will you submit to God?' If they become Muslims they shall be rightly guided; if they pay no heed, then your only duty is to warn them.' (3:20)

'In their religion they are deceived by their own lies.' (3:24)

'Let not believers make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful - he that does this has nothing to hope for from God - except in self-defence.' (3:28)

'He that chooses a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him and in the world to come he will surely be among the losers.' (3:84)

'Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin.' (3:118)

'Believers, do not choose the infidels rather than the faithful for your friends.' (4:145)

'Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers.' (5:51)

'The day will surely come when those who disbelieve will wish that they were Muslims.' (15:1)

'Say: Bring down from God a scripture that is a better guide than these and I will follow it, if what you say be true!' (28:50)

---------------------

There are also these verses:

'Therefore call men to the true Faith, and follow the straight path as you are commanded. Do not be led by their desires, but say: 'I believe in all the scriptures that God has revealed. I am commanded to exercise justice among you. God is our Lord and your Lord. We have our own works and you have yours; let there be no argument between us. God will bring us all together, for to Him we shall return.' (42:15)

'That which you have been given is but the fleeting pleasure of this life. Better and more enduring is God's recompense to those who believe and put their trust in Him; who avoid grievous sins and lewd acts and, when angered, are willing to forgive; who obey their Lord, attend to their prayers, and conduct their affairs by mutual consent; who give in alms from what We gave them and,

when oppressed, seek to redress their wrongs.

Let evil be rewarded with evil.

But he that forgives and seeks reconcilement shall be recompensed by God. He does not love wrongdoers.

Those who seek to redress their wrongs incur no guilt.

But great is the guilt of those who oppress their fellow men and conduct themselves with wickedness and injustice in the land. Woeful punishment awaits them. To endure with fortitude and to forgive is a duty incumbent on all.' (42:35-42)

'You shall be recompensed according only to your deeds.' (52:14)

-----------------------

The Quran has a verse that shows understanding for the fact that not everybody may want to convert to Islam. So it says:

'Say: 'Unbelievers, I do not worship what you worship, nor do you worship what I worship. I shall never worship what you worship, nor will you ever worship what I worship. You have your own religion, and I have mine.' (109:1-5)

To Muslims it says:

'This day I have perfected your religion for you and completed My favour to you. I have chosen Islam to be your faith.' (5:3)

Victoria is once again attributing to Mohammad what is taken from another faith tradition. The moral of the wisdom story was about not committing a sin in the process of reporting somebody else's sin. It was not meant to justify the sin itself. Her emphasis about the onus being on the one who reports sin creates a false impression. Please note that she sidesteps the question as to whether adultery was wrong in Allah's sight and whether it was to be punished with death.

To Ross:

You were keen to know whether Muslims could marry non-Muslims. You would have read the relevant verses in the Quran several times. You know too that for Muslims the Quran is the infallible Word of Allah, a transcript of a tablet preserved in heaven, revealed to the Prophet Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel. Muslims are not at liberty to reinvent the Quran although Pamela Taylor would dearly like to create that impression through her writings here.

"You shall not wed pagan women, unless they embrace the Faith. A believing slave-girl is better than an idolatress, although she may please you. Nor shall you wed idolaters, unless they embrace the Faith. A believing slave is better than an idolater, although he may please you. These call you to the Fire; but God calls you, by His will, to Paradise and to forgiveness. He makes plain His revelations to mankind so that they may take heed." (2:221)

Originally posted on Ingrid Mattson Guest Voice blog: ‘My Islam: Freedom and Responsibility’ (20 April 2007)

Posted by JIHADIST APRIL 20, 2007 10:55 PM:

Ms. Mattson

Great article. Definitely, American Muslims should not be held answerable or responsible for the acts of Muslims overseas. Just as American Buddhists should not be nor are held responsible for the acts of the Burmese junta or the Sri Lanka government. And ironically, what they did was never attributed to their beliefs as Buddhists. Just as what the IRA did was never attributed to their Cathololic faith. All were shaped by and reported as due to politics.
(APRIL 20, 2007 10:55 PM)

Posted by Soja John Thaikattil APRIL 21, 2007 2:23 AM:

Jihadist

You wrote, "Just as American Buddhists should not be nor are held responsible for the acts of the Burmese junta or the Sri Lanka government. And ironically, what they did was never attributed to their beliefs as Buddhists. Just as what the IRA did was never attributed to their Cathololic faith. All were shaped by and reported as due to politics."

I agree fully that no one should be held responsible for somebody else's wrong doing. But your complaint that Buddhism and Catholicism was not blamed for wrongs done by people who may have been Buddhists or Catholics is due to the fact that Buddha and Jesus Christ never advocated or taught violence and their lives had no trace of violence in it. Please read the New Testament to know about the life of Jesus. Dammapada gives a short overview of Buddhist teachings. But probably you have read them already. I doubt if any of the people who committed the atrocities you mention could have referred to any Buddhist or Christian Scripture to justify their actions, and whether they declared themselves as acting on behalf of their religion in the first place. Tamil Tigers identify themselves as Tamils and they have made no secret of the fact that theirs is a political agenda. So Hinduism should not be brought into the picture.

---------------------

Since the argument that Christianity, Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism all have history of violence is recycled over and over again, the response must be recycled as well.

Politics was never a part of these religions as preached and lived by the founders. Buddha, Mahavira, Jesus Christ, and none of the Hindu sages and rishis led armies as part of the religion they founded. There is no reference to violence in the Scriptures. This may probably be a difficult concept for Muslims to grasp, for the life and teachings of Mohammad is unique in this respect.

All the armies and politicians mentioned in above Muslim posts are part of secular governments. Even if they happen to be practise one religion or another, they are not religious leaders, nor are their governments theocracies.

Jesus said, "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, give to God what belongs to God." With that Jesus made it clear that there would be a worldly ruler who would be concerned with worldly politics. He said that His kingdom was not of this world.

The Vatican City is the only Christian 'theocracy' in existence. It has no army of its own. The Vatican is "defended" by the Swiss Guard, dressed in the clothes of circus clowns and armed with "weapons of mass destruction" as in this picture:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/swiss_guard/swissguard/compiti_en.htm

Are you KIDDING?!:,

You say you do not have to know Islam to know that my claims are false. Well, you just admitted that you do not know what you are talking about.

If I did not like non-Christians I would not bother pointing out that Islam is a false religion. One must know they are lost before they can receive help. I am not saying that Muslims should not have the right to follow Islam. I am saying that Islam is not the truth. Jesus often told the Pharisees that they were in error and the Apostles did the same. Read Stephen's sermon that led to his martyrdom. I am afraid of the cowardly Christianity that is being taught today. A Christianity that will not stand for truth. What I see you doing is defending Islam. That is definitely not Christlike.

Are you KIDDING?!,

One is not a Christian who denies the Father Son and Holy Spirit as the one true God. Therefore your little play on words is nothing but a straw man to set up and kick down. One cannot be a Christian who claims that Jesus is not the Son of God which the Koran most defiantly asserts.

The Koran, the so-called prophet, the history of Islam, and the actions of real Muslims today all testify that Islam is a religion of hatred and war.

ross- the onus is on the accuser, not the accused.

you are misunderstanding- (deliberately to misrepresent as youve heard this before)

a woman who is raped does not provide "witnesses"

what a ridiculous assertion

here it is again- with clarity

if one is accused of adultery, the ACCUSER must bring forth 4(FOUR) not 3, not 2, not 1 witnesses TO THE ACT ITSELF.

privacy being so important in islam- (theres also a hadeeth where a man ran to the Prophet(pbuh) to inform him of a couple who were committing a sin- but he breached their privacy to do so- so was reprimanded for that and the tale was ignored)

the woman in question ACCUSED HERSELF- and REPEATEDLY did so, even though the Prophet(pbuh) was greatly reluctant to punish her- SHE INSISTED because her fear of the hellfire and judgement of ALLAH was so great she wanted to expiate her sin on this plane of life, rather than wait-

so she could die sinless-
which is something adherents of ALL religions aspire to-

if this is such a foreign concept to you- then it is the failure of your own soul to understand such a strong faith-

which is your problem, not muslims.

but you are pretending youve never heard this (and you have heard this before)- with your rhetorical questions

your only purpose is to defame what you clearly are incapable of understanding

Tell The Truth? posted: "All right prove that the Koranic verses I sited were taken out of context? I will be waiting for your response."

I guess its just a habit to leave off the rest.

The statement should have included:

I will be waiting for your response...until the thread goes to the archive where no one will see it.

Awesome debate strategy!

Moody,

Would you have cast a stone at this woman ? WHY ?

BS,

Danke Schoen!!

Ahmed,

And where do I error about your warmongering religion and the Islamic terror and torture theocracy of Iran? The flaws in the founders and foundations of Islam are repeated as a constant reminder of a massive problem that needs to be corrected ASAP.

(Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe!!!!)

And being Islamic, please verify the following:

1. Belief in Allah??

2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence??

3. To believe in the existence of angels??

4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore??

5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone??

ref: The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi

Moody wrote:
The complete historical record is the women knowningly the punishment for adultary came to Prophet (PBUH) asked her self for it after admitting the crime in fear of God. To clear her self from any punishment on the day of judgement. Then the Prophet delay it until the birth. And on derogatory remark while stoning her from a person. The Prophet replied behold she had paid the punishment for her sin and now among the pious in this world and here after.

What happened to prophet's forgivessness ?
Why di'nt Mo consult allah on this matter ? afterall Allah was quick to respond when Mo wanted to marry his adopted son's wife !

Moody wrote:
Like all Abrahimic religions punishment for adultary in Islam is stone to death, BUT WITH SPECIFICALLY DEFINED DEFERENCE:
1-Lashes: For unmarried fornication (differnt quantity for man and woman)
2-Stone to death: For married Adultary.

Incorrect, Stoning or Lashing was never a punishment in Christianity for any crime. In fact anyone casting a stone against anyone else would be committing a grave sin irrespective of the crime.
Judaism has reformed and abandoned this practice centuries ago.

Moody wrote:
In both cases, If you admit your self and choose to be punished in this world to save your self from the torment of the hell fire OR there are atleast 4 witnesses ONLY THEN the punishment is confirmed and applied. If you don't admit and there is no witness, no punishment in this world. But Allah will judge you Himself here after and Allah is most forgiving, may be Allah knows, if you don't admit, repent and donot commit again, for the rest of your life.

So woman could have repented and Allah could have forgiven her BUT Mo still carried out the stoning, why was he not sure of Allah laws or perhaps he enjoyed viewing the stoning of a helpless woman.

Moody wrote:
Same rule applied for the rapped and pregnant woman, if she say she is rapped THEN NO PUNISHMENT OR same in case of abused man.

Incorrect, a raped woman must produce 4 witnesses otherwise she will punished. Just saying she was raped is not enough according to the sharia law.
What does a woman who cannot produce 4 witnesses do ?
Do the rapist get away if the are only 3 witnesses ? What if the act is caugt on CCTV ?

Your post has strengthened my claim that Islam is a wicked barbaric cult. In most other religions men stoning a helpless woman would be branded as COWARDS whereas in islam such men experience some divine sadistic pleasure out of it.

One last question, Do the men who carry out the stoning (the one's who physically throw the stones) receive a BLESSING or some other reward in heaven for their act ?

Regards
ROSS (not Rose)

..."or just spend your time putting same old spent venom to attack people you personally do not know anything about."

Ahmed pwned CCNL! You got that one perfectly! I think that should get posted right after every time CCNL posts that RIDICULOUS "world religion" post! It's worse than Jacob Jovez and BGONE combined and needs to be relegated to teh crap heap as that RETARDED Hoax Buster website that BGONE posts as often as CCNL posts his tired crap.

Oh, and WHATEVER you have to say about my post CCNL...I have only, and will only post this particular post ONCE!

WITH CORRECTION........

Rose :

You qouted the story of mother stone to death incomplete, out of context to support your convenience of mind and believes.

The complete historical record is the women knowningly the punishment for adultary came to Prophet (PBUH) asked her self for it after admitting the crime in fear of God. To clear her self from any punishment on the day of judgement. Then the Prophet delay it until the birth. And on derogatory remark while stoning her from a person. The Prophet replied behold she had paid the punishment for her sin and now among the pious in this world and here after.

Like all Abrahimic religions punishment for adultary in Islam is stone to death, BUT WITH SPECIFICALLY DEFINED DEFERENCE:

1-Lashes: For unmarried fornication (differnt quantity for man and woman)
2-Stone to death: For married Adultary.

In both cases,
If you admit your self and choose to be punished in this world to save your self from the torment of the hell fire OR there are atleast 4 witnesses ONLY THEN the punishment is confirmed and applied.
If you don't admit and there is no witness, no punishment in this world. But Allah will judge you Himself here after and Allah is most forgiving, may be Allah knows, if you don't admit, repent and donot commit again, for the rest of your life.
Same rule applied for the rapped and pregnant woman, if she say she is rapped THEN NO PUNISHMENT OR same in case of abused man.

I'm very open to learning about Islam. I have never claimed to be a religious scholar. I request that the exact verses in the Quran be quoted so that I may be able to verify them.

Likewise any claim I make about Christianity I could quote from the Bible.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Rose :

You qouted the story of mother stone to death incomplete, out of context to support your convenience of mind and believes.

The complete historical record is the women knowningly the punishment for adultary came to Prophet (PBUH) asked her self for it after admitting the crime in fear of God. To clear her self from any punishment on the day of judgement. Then the Prophet delay it until the birth. And on derogatory remark while stoning her from a person. The Prophet replied behold she had paid the punishment for her sin and now among the pious in this world and here after.

Like all Abrahimic religions punishment for adultary in Islam is stone to death, BUT WITH SPECIFICALLY DEFINED DEFERENCE:

1-Lashes: For unmarried fornication (differnt quantity for man and woman)
2-Stone to death: For married Adultary.

In both cases,
If you admit your self OR there are atleast 4 witnesses ONLY THEN the punishment is confirmed and applied.
If you don't admit and there is no witness, no punishment in this world. But Allah will judge you Himself here after. Same rule applied for the rapped and pregnant woman, if she say she is rapped THEN NO PUNISHMENT OR same in case of abused man.

Rose :

You qouted the story of mother stone to death incomplete, out of context to support your convenience of mind and believes.

The complete historical record is the women knowningly the punishment for adultary came to Prophet (PBUH) asked her self for it after admitting the crime in fear of God. To clear her self from any punishment on the day of judgement. Then the Prophet delay it until the birth. And on derogatory remark while stoning her from a person. The Prophet replied behold she had paid the punishment for her sin and now among the pious in this world and here after.

Like all Abrahimic religions punishment for adultary in Islam is stone to death, BUT WITH SPECIFICALLY DEFINED DEFERENCE:

1-Lashes: For unmarried fornication (differnt quantity for man and woman)
2-Stone to death: For married Adultary.

In both cases,
If you admit your self OR there are atleast 4 witnesses ONLY THEN the punishment is confirmed and applied.
If you don't admit and there is no witness, no punishment in this world. But Allah will judge you Himself here after. Same rule applied for the rapped and pregnant woman, if she say she is rapped OR abused man.

Concerned

You are incapable of seeing truth. Your indicator is stuck on the same old boring station. Perhaps another 100 lifetimes you can come close to understanding people of the East. Meantime the world for people like you drops at your nearest coastline. Sadly your tax dollar pays for the killing fields of the Middle East but you hubris blinds you to such facts.

Do you actually have a real job? or just spend your time putting same old spent venom to attack people you personally do not know anything about.

Ahmed,

Your brainwashed Islamic neurons continue to amaze. Again, the truth about Mo and the terror and torture theocracy of Iran.

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing/warmongering scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? The Islamic Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Robert,

You are not really invoking the power of "pretty wingie talking flying fictional thingies" are you??????

Dear Pamela,

Your article was very generous and inspiring. I could relate to the ideas of equality and arrogance.

It seems that some of my fellow Christians have less than charitable feelings about Muslims who are not perfect but are cruel and unfair.

The logic that can be extrapolated from their animosity and arrogance is worth noting. Thank goodness that all Christinas are Angels because if they were not their behaviour would invalidate the teachings in the bible.

It seems that the American Bible Belt believes that their members are superior to anyone else.

The Lord's Prayer says in part: 'forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us'. Essentially, this means that we should only be forgiven to the extent that we forgive others. This is similar to what you have been telling us.

Once again thankyou for your kind words.

Dear Pamela,

Your article was very generous and inspiring. I could relate to the ideas of equality and arrogance.

It seems that some of my fellow Christians have less than charitable feelings about Muslims who are not perfect but are cruel and unfair.

The logic that can be extrapolated from their animosity and arrogance is worth noting. Thank goodness that all Christinas are Angels because if they were not their behaviour would invalidate the teachings in the bible.

It seems that the American Bible Belt believes that their members are superior to anyone else.

The Lord's Prayer says in part: 'forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us'. Essentially, this means that we should only be forgiven to the extent that we forgive others. This is similar to what you have been telling us.

Once again thankyou for your kind words.

Pamela

Interesting story of Abu Sufyan. He actually announced his Islam under duress and Prophet Mohammed knew this fully but for the sake of keeping peace, he allowed him those privileges. This really shows what Mohammed was all about since this very Abu Sufyan and his sons and cohorts truly destroyed Islam and killed many innocents including Prophet Mohammed's grand-children. His own wife Hind tore the liver of Hamza, Prophets uncle and ate it after paying money to a slave to kill Hamza.

Abu Sufyan and his clan were at the forefront of inventing ahadith about Mohammed to suit their ruling dynasty.

It is a shame that many in the Muslim world still quote such rubbish about the prophet. Many here in this forum have not much idea about what they are writing and there is no point to argue with them since minds are totally closed.

Yet the most important fact has been side-stepped. That is what proof do you have as to what truly happened some 1400 years ago? Many can not know the truth behind what is happening in Iraq today?? or recent historical events in Palestine. So how can you condemn Muslims for supposed acts done 1400 years ago?? History is always written by people with political interests in events. One must seek a variety of sources to sift facts from fiction. As for Muslims killing Muslims today, this is highly charged political garbage we have carried for decades and it needs to be addressed, yet it has nothing to do with Quran. To the contrary Quran specifically denounces shedding blood of the innocent."If you kill one person it is as if you have killed all humanity and if you save one person it is as if you have saved all humanity." Quran.

So, let us stick to today and events of our lives of 50 years.

How many Muslim military camps we have installed in Western or any other countries?
How many countries Iran has invaded? so you now want to bomb it?
How many desperate regimes Muslims have supported and abetted against local population?
How many nuclear bombs a Muslim country has dropped on their enemies?
How many wars Muslim countries have waged compared to wars waged by Christian Western countries?

You get the drift and I can go on because these are fresh in our memories. But detailed events of who said what some 1400 years?? Give me a break and first take a closer look at Native Indians and Aborigines before you accuse others. Yours is a case of pot calling the kettle black and by the way does Holocaust and Pogroms mean anything to you?? or are you hellbent on tribe of Quraiza being Jewish and slaughtered by Mohammed, something I never knew, despite Jews living amongst us for centuries and continue to do so.

It was the West who slaughtered Jews and then sent millions to occupy Palestine knowing full well that such numbers will cause chaos. Furthermore they are paid billions and supplied with WMD to continue atrocities against Arabs to this day.

Sieve calling the funnel you have a hole!!

There is a way out of all this mess. For you to "love for others what you love for yourself" and yes these are words from Prophet Mohammed and many Muslims agree with this, so why do YOU not show similar feelings? This is all it takes AND to stop causing more wars and hatred. Put your tax money towards sending us teachers, doctors, wise men and women instead of soldiers. For God's sake who would want their homes invaded at 3am by paratroopers armed to their hilt?? What sort of effect you think it will have on those children by seeing their parents abused, killed or dragged to some Abu Ghareeb?? Is this your Jesus teaching??

Let me tell you Jesus preached love not hatred. You preach hatred and profess to be followers of Jesus.

There is a name for such people: Hypocrites.

The Judgment Principle (part 2)
http://christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/2014/Patrick_Burwell

How could Serdar Tatar's Dad have not known why his son wanted to "go Jihad"?

So the point Jesus was making, in Matthew 7, wasn't not to judge but rather that we should judge ourselves first, honestly: “…then you can see clearly…”

Now why would Jesus say this? - Because everyone judges ALL the time. I remember my dad telling me to use my "common sense" and be discerning in choosing my friends; where I went; what classes I took; what girls I liked, etc... My dad understood that we all judge one another constantly and he wanted me to do so wisely.

The matter here is not about whether we judge but how we judge. When you are honest with yourself you will be straight with another over their actions. A wise man, Leroy Linscott Headley, put it this way when he said, "An honest man cannot be conned." Those words spoke volumes to me as I grew in my faith because I understood what he said. You must first be honest with yourself and then no one can fool you with their lies or their flattery; no evil person will be able to pull you into their evil. The result of being honest is wise judgment: The Judgment Principle.

Until I was willing to be honest about my sin; about who I really was, then all I was concerned about was trying to be everyone's friend. But once I was "an honest man" I didn't worry myself with what people thought of me any more: I was much more concerned about whether God was proud of me; whether my God was happy with me, the One who rescued me when I didn’t deserve rescuing.

God curses the man who trusts in man; He says we must make Him our strength; must trust in Him alone... (Jeremiah 17:5-8 (WEB)) And once you know Jesus, know God, you understand very well “why.”

If you lie to yourself, you'll lie for everyone else, too, just to cover up your own mess. But, like Dad says, "Honesty is the best policy." He didn't realize how right he really was. Thankfully I had someone who cared enough to explain what that meant. I hope you will hear it as well.

Jesus understood this rule I call "The Judgment Principle" very well, because He knows our hearts. Jesus knows we will evaluate one another; so His point was to instead make us see who we must judge first, that we may then bring Life and Salvation to another who desperately needs to hear the truth from us about them.

Perhaps if Cho had heard from enough “honest men,” he might not have killed anyone.
Perhaps Ted would have seen he wasn’t being honest with himself and repented for the first time a lot sooner, preventing the name of Jesus from receiving dishonor at his hand.
Perhaps if the next serial killer hears the truth from an honest man, he may never become that mass murderer.
Maybe you need to hear this…

So, when you hear of a dad refusing to admit his own son's evil, know that man is being dishonest with himself.

When you read the mom of a serial killer still calling her son a "good boy," even after knowing what he has done, know she has unrepentant sin in her life.

Notice the lone young man and see if he might need an honest friend; one willing to tell him the truth and save his life and many others as well.

When the High Priests of Psychology rant, those liars so often run to by media outlets for answers to why and how someone could do such a thing; when men need to explain how we are all still "good" using Psychology, be wise, trust God.

When these "experts" we all hear from in the news shows are so quick to excuse a person's evil, blaming society, or a bad dad, or that he didn't get hugged enough rather than agreeing with God Who says man is evil beyond our own understanding, then remember this:

Unless you judge yourself honestly, you will not be honest with anyone else.

So take the Test! Judge YOURSELF the way God requires NOW; BE righteous before a Just and Holy God; BE an honest man.

ONLY THEN can you deal wisely with the evil in other men... Only then will you know "why"...

Patrick Burwell
OnlyJesusSaves.com

Footnotes:

(1) Jeremiah 17:9 (WEB)

(2) Psalms 14:1 (WEB)

(3) Romans 2

(3) Jeremiah 17:5 (WEB)

"Compassion is far more central to Islam than jihad. It is certain happenings in history of Islam and also in contemporary world that this impression about jihad goes round.

In fact compassion represents the true spirit of Islam and compassion is far more vital to Islamic teachings than any thing else. In fact compassion in Islam, after the concepts of unity of God (tawhid) and risalah (messengership of Muhammad) is as central to Islam as it is to Buddhism."

What are you on? For compassion to be "more central to Islam than jihad" the world would be witnessing muslims going around helping everyone like Mother Theresa did. By these "certain happenings in history", do you mean the muslim jihadists going about blowing up themselves and innocent people and children?
It is a fact, over 10,000 violent incidents have been committed by people of the muslim faith since 9/11. Much of this has been done to children. Is that the compassionate true spirit of islam that you speak of? I haven't heard much in the news lately of Buddhists blowing up things or chopping off heads, sorry I can't say the same for muslims.

Your forgiveness meme is a crock, Pamela Taylor. As long as there are people who use bombs on innocent civilians and children in the name of islam, your writing about forgiveness within your religion is nothing but empty words.

Ah, The Jihadist reminds us that warmongering Islam is not the only problem into today's world. Please, note North Korea is covered in my War on Terror updates. And definitely China has significant human right issues but we are slowly bringing them around to democracy with a good dose of capitalism.

Ceylon which is "neater name" appears to suffer from language and religious differences with a smattering of Buddhism, Communism and Islam thrown in to make it a muddled mess.

I am sure Homeland Security keeps tab on all the potential risks posed by these countries so they do not export any terror our way.

Tell the Truth?

Prove that Islam is not a religion of war? What kind of question is that? It is like saying - prove that Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism is not a religion of war.

Or course all religions in the world extort peace. But just because the East Asian (China, Japan, Korea) and mainland South East Asian (Burma, Cambodia, Loas, Vietnam, Thailand) states are/were Buddhists does not mean they don't undertake wars which is against the basic tenets of Buddhism. Likewise in India where Hindu states do wage wars against one another in past centuries before the Mughals and then British went in and made domination possible due to the wars and disunity of Hindu states which weakened them.

As for Holy War, the various divinely ordained Christian kings of Europe do invoke Holy wars for reasons of conquest or to purge those they deem as heretics.

And Holy Wars, in the form of Crusades, was called on by various Popes. And various Muslim rulers also invoke Holy Wars against the Crusaders to regain control over the Holy Land.

Of course, like their counterparts in Christendom of the past centuries up till the 20th, various Muslims caliphs and rulers do call for Holy Wars to protect their realms and people or to expand their territories. Just like Christian rulers then.

The rules on war is very strict in Islam including - one should never be the aggressor, one should sue for peace if the other side do so, and one should not kill civilians etc. But of course, those rules are sometimes not complied by some. "Collateral damages" runs through the ages whether as so-called Holy Wars, Wars for Freedom and Democracy, or War on Terror.

If Muslims seem to ignore your posts, it is, perhaps, because it is apparent that you already have pre-conceived, sweeping and fixed views with "cut and paste points" to reinforce your notions.

You really don't want anyone to get really going on all the Holy Wars of Christendon when you talk about the Holy Wars of Islam. And we want to get past that and make Holy Wars, in fact, all wars, history don't we? Wars are caused by refusal and/or failures to communicate too.

--------------------------------------------------

Hello Halozcel:)

You : "Malay Malaysian girl.Bogey in black wrap.
Chinese Malaysian girl with mini-skirt and short t-shirt.

*Crow* and *swan* side by side,you can see in Kuala Lumpur."

Moi: That is precisely the point and suchlike photos taken over and over again.

The thing is, the Chinese girl is in western garb - a miniskirt and short t-shirt. The Malay girl in a Middle Eastern garb. Both made their choices on fashion - east or west or middle eastern.

So, Muslim women should all wear western fashion not by their choice but because you wanted them to be a "swan" instead of a "crow"?

Surely you are not as equally "imposing" and dictating on what Muslim women should, or should not wear as some alleged Muslim men are on what Muslim women should wear?

-------------------------------------------------

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:)

Still on flaws and deflawing?

Don't forget the crazies in North Korea, Sri Lanka, China, Burma etc. Just because they are not hurting America and Americans directly does not mean they can be ignored. Saying it's all right for crazies to hurt and kill their own as long as it is not you?

All those fellows are not hallucinating nor do they care for myths and legends. But they do lie and embellish on what they are doing, why they are doing it and insisted it is all for the good of their people.

"J"

Athena,

I have noted my synopsis of the flaws in the founders and foundations of contemporary religions many times but apparently you missed it. For your perusal:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus. Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? The Islamic Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site)- "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

Tell the truth doesn't like Infidels aka Muslims

Obviously CCNL has been "liberated" from what Jesus said about being judgmental. "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I could cherry-pick 2,000 years of Christian aggression against non-Christians and Christians who dared to believe outside of the mainstream. Christians also believe in angels. Didn't an angel tell Mary that she was going to bear the Savior? Oh, and my favorite Bible verse of all, "do not suffer a witch to live."

Tell The Truth got pwned!

You have the Quran and the Bible mixed up.

You are talking like a Christian not a Muslim.

For we jihad not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Tell The Truth?,

In your original post on this thread you respond directly to the statement:

"It is important to note that in Qur’an there is no concept of war of aggression and no concept of permissiveness of violence. Even where permission of war has been given it has been given to defend and protect rights of the oppressed and exploited, and not for achieving power. There is no verse in the Qur’an which permits violence for conquering territory or for achieving power."

To which you respond with:

“The Qur'an in conflict with what you say says:

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (Surah 9:5).

Surah 9:5 is set in the context of condemning Christians who believe in the trinity.”

That assertion, is true-ish but incomplete, and if you KNOW Islam the way you claim you do (remember, how dare I say you don't?) then you are intentionally misusing this quote. I had to do VERY little checking to figure out what you were up to.

Christians do in fact believe in the trinity, but the specific (NOT ALL) Christians being condemned here are those who violated a treaty. Here is the full context.

Surah 9

1- A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances-

2- Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.

3- And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If, then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

4- (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

5- But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practise regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

6- If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

So, really what is being said is that you need to fulfill your obligation with those who keep the treaty, and those who do not beware. The fact that they are “Christians who believe in the trinity” is coincidental, and the instruction is that in light of the treaty having been broken by the other side, all bets are off. It is even telling them to weigh the value of the individual based on his keeping or not keeping the treaty’s terms, and to PROTECT those who do.

Then when Anonymous (rightly) laughs at your hack job, you attempt to bolster your argument with:

“Your Koran is anti-Christian and anti-Jew. Surah 9 in the Koran,the war chapter makes that very clear. Read the following and stop acting like you do not know what I am talking about:” Then you quote 9:30-33.

All this does is acknowledge the difference between the faiths and asserts Islam for the Muslim reader. So what? What does this have to do with the original statement made by Anonymous that you claim is either a lie or ignorance? This has nothing even to do with your original quote of 9:5.

Then you follow this up by quoting 5:72-75. What is your point. This asks the rhetorical question; Why do the Christians turn their back on Allah, and elevate the prophet Jesus?

Where in either of these groups of quotes (9:30-33, 5:72-75) do you contradict the original assertion made by Anonymous? In fact you almost prove them.

You do not successfully contradict

1) “in Qur’an there is no concept of war of aggression”
2) “no concept of permissiveness of violence”
3) “Even where permission of war has been given…not for achieving power”
4) “There is no verse in the Qur’an which permits violence for conquering territory or for achieving power”

So, when backed into a corner you attack Anonymous directly, and criticize his method of arguing, which was merely:

“LOL what the heck are are talking about, let me guess you must be a Christian fanatic.” Then he calls you out for not actually being able to show that Muslim scholars would disagree with him.

Yes, I am a Christian. However, I am not a CRAZY Christian. I can use the brain God gave me to reason. If what you claimed were true, you’d have actually proven it. If you had PROOVED it, I might have a different opinion of you.

But alas…You show yourself to simply be un-humble, judgmental, underhanded and bigoted. Clearly your tantrum shows that you want to be able to spout any unreasonable claim and have it go unchallenged to protect your fragile ego…is THAT what Jesus would do?

You said to me: “How dare you say I do not know Islam.”

Your indignation is hysterical. Thanks for the laughs, and may God bless you.

Tell the Truth?,

Your indignance says more about you that your so called "argument".

The only thing you say that I find credible is this:

"Any person who denies that Jesus is the son of God and that He died on the cross is an anti-Christ that is one of the things that the book of 1 John teaches. The Koran denies these truths so I do not know why you a person who claims to be a Christian want to defend Islam."

You just don't like non-Christians. Plain and simple.

The statement was made, and quoted by you:

"It is important to note that in Qur’an there is no concept of war of aggression and no concept of permissiveness of violence. Even where permission of war has been given it has been given to defend and protect rights of the oppressed and exploited, and not for achieving power. There is no verse in the Qur’an which permits violence for conquering territory or for achieving power."

To this, you responded with sound bites. I will agree that on the surface they appear to contradict the original assertion. Here is problem though...

You show "permission" of war, and slaying of one's enemies, but you don't really show it in the context of the original claim above.

Were your quotes from the Koran made in the name of self-defense, or agresssion? The original claim is that no such verse exists, and you fail to show whether it actually does or doesn't. You don't bother to show enough.

I can't tell from your quotes that they are condoning violence to achieve power, or wars of agression. I can't tell from your editing, but that is suposedly what you are arguing.

YOU say: "Surah 9:5 is set in the context of condemning Christians who believe in the trinity."

What reason do I have to believe that, you removed it from THAT context. That is only YOUR claim, not evidence. If what you say the meaning YOU say is true, then show it instead of telling it.

You never directly respond to the original assertion that no permission is given for wars of agression.

Then, as if that is not enough, you criticise your OPPONENTS methods of argument.

I still don't believe that you have studied Islam. You are clearly too biased against non-Christians to have the open mind required for academia.

I don't have to have studied Islam to apply critical thinking to your claims.

I can still be a Christian and defend the right of my Muslim neighbor to hold his faith. I don't see how bearing false witness against my neighbor is very Christ-like.

Are you KIDDING?,

All right prove that the Koranic verses I sited were taken out of context? I will be waiting for your response.

Are you KIDDING?,

Have you read the Koran? Obviously either you are a Muslim masking yourself as a Christian or you do not understand Islam. How dare you say I do not know Islam. You do not know me and you do not know what you are talking about.

Any person who denies that Jesus is the son of God and that He died on the cross is an anti-Christ that is one of the things that the book of 1 John teaches. The Koran denies these truths so I do not know why you a person who claims to be a Christian want to defend Islam. The history of the so-called prophet as contained in the hadith shows that Muhammad was a murderer. The history of Islam shows that real Muslims have followed His example of murder, and that the Koran is all in perfect agreement with these actions.

Tell the Truth?,

I am a Christian too, but what you do is dishonest and you know it. You have not studided Islam, you have merely plucked sound bites from its scripture.

I suppose this hints that you are one of THOSE Chrisitans who believes that the same can be done with Bible verses to condemn those you don't like or that you disagree with.

I know that the Bible cannot be used this way, so I can reasonably surmise that the same holds true for the Koran.

Using your "tactic" for a "case being made", I assert that Christianity is about drunkeness, and that one should keep their wine safe at all costs so that one can drink it until it becomes their blood.

John 4:46 He came again therefore into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine.

Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a wine drinker, a friend of publicans and sinners.

Mark 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: otherwise the wine will burst the bottles, and both the wine will be spilled, and the bottles will be lost. But new wine must be put into new bottles.

Luke 22:20 In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

Now we both know that that is not true.

Why not put more effort into understanding your neighbor, than searching to condemn him at the risk of bearing false witness, or lying?

Anonymous,

Yes I did copy and paste the quote that does not make it incorrect. Prove that Islam is not a religion of war. The tactic you are using ignores the case being made. This would never stand in a formal debate. You are simply ducking the issue by changing the subject. The quote still stands prove that the Islamic world does not embrace what it says. I hope that you will address the issue but think you will simply ignore it like all the other Muslims have since I have been posting on this site.

Anonymous,

Here are somemore anti-Christian words from the Koran:

5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

5:74 Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him ? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

5:75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

Anonymous,

Yes I am a follower of Jesus the Son of God who died on the cross and arose from the dead. Your Koran is anti-Christian and anti-Jew. Surah 9 in the Koran,the war chapter makes that very clear. Read the following and stop acting like you do not know what I am talking about:

9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

9:32 Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse.

9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

Asim MA, San Antonio wrote:
What about the Genocide of Bosnian Muslims? The Inquistion? the Holocaust? The over than one million dead Iraqis and more than four million refugees?

The above were committed by "evil men", can you say the same for your prophet for his role in the genocide of the jewish tribes of arabia ?

Just think, why would a man who claimed he received regular messages from God commit such heinous acts ?

Dear Ajdelosreves Ca-USA,

**Without freedom we can not be ourselves *fully human* **.
Yes,that is the problem.
To be or not to be.

*Women are filthy creatures*.
Yes,to be *fully human* as you write or to be *half creature*.*Two women equals one man*.That is the point.

Malay Malaysian girl.Bogey in black wrap.
Chinese Malaysian girl with mini-skirt and short t-shirt.
*Crow* and *swan* side by side,you can see in Kuala Lumpur.

To be free from *cult of desert*.That is the matter.

.
How ironic! That is, if the comments here are valid indicators of what prevails in our planet and in our time.

Religions/Faiths that purport to bind in fraternal peace the peoples of the world are serving as shearing forces to divide them!

Reading the comments here and related sources proves clearly that world peace will be best served by the absence of religionists in the conference table. They should not even be allowed inside the conference hall but tied with mighty chains somewhere far and distantly separated least they tear each other to pieces. (And would that latter event be too bad? I wonder.)

God by whatever name we may call him can only be merciful, or he is not God at all. Can we not agree on this?

Mercy is an overflowing of love; we can not really love neither ourselves nor others unless we are merciful to ourselves and to others. Can we not agree on this?

With neither a directive feeling of mercy and love for one another, there can not be justice in the world. Can we not agree on this?

In the absence of world justice, we can not unite for the general welfare and benefit of all. Can we not agree on this?

Freedom is ever in danger of being suppressed in times of hostilities. Peace provides the oppotunities for freedom to reign. Can we not agree on this?

Without freedom, we can not be ourselves, fully human. Can we not agree on this?

Being human and being humane are one and the same. Can we not agree on this?

Whether political or religious dogma, economic dicta or what-have-you that denies or subverts any of the above, cannot have come from and possess the blessing of God by whatever name God may be called. Can we not agree on this?

And then we can have fruitful discussion being respectful, civil, helpful, concerned, and opened to each other.

The alternative is chaos, stupid and bloody, meaningless and destructive. It can only end with the demise of civilization, of humanity itself as such, and turning earth into hell. And then where would God by whatever name God may be called be?

.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/19/saudi.rape.victim/index.html

Not good to be a female in Islamic Saudi Arabia!!!

tell the truth said:

"Surah 9:5 is set in the context of condemning Christians who believe in the trinity"

LOL what the heck are are talking about, let me guess you must be a Christian fanatic.

"I was not born yesterday. The real Islamic scholars in the Islamic world disagree with you"

What real Islamic scholars ? copy and pasting quotes you found on Google lol.

Asim MA, San Antonio,

I was not born yesterday. The real Islamic scholars in the Islamic world disagree with you. You need to read your Koran and your hadiths more carefully or maybe you are using deception like your Koran teaches you to get over on all the ignoramuses in the West who are falling over themselves to propagate the lie that "Islam is a religion of peace."

Darn, a real outburst of Islamic brainwashing today. The Islamic "pwtfft"s must be working overtime or is it the Islamcic demons of the demented??

Apparently based the Jihadist's outburst, her Three B syndrome is really out of control but as she knows, the antidote is only Five Steps away.

And keeping up with the news:

An Update on the USA's War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. The Islamic terror and torture theocracy of Iran is being been contained. (besides containing the Islamic Sunni-Shiite civil war in Bahgdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! Or is he????

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. Although a bit dated, the terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.
Add to that the defeat of the genocidal Nazis and Russian Communists, and one can only say "God Bless the USA"!!!!!!!

Anonymous:
1// Jihad is not,I repeat,is not holy war; the term was coined by the popes to recruit untold number of christians for the Crusades on the Muslim East and it does not exist in Islamic juriprudence at all;

2// How shameful of u to relate such lies to the Syrian Scholar Dr.Bouti-who never wrote or said such utterances-Jihad is a just and defensive war and means among other things to fight back aggression and those who evict Muslims from their homeland as the case of the alien jews who ethnically cleanesed and evicted Palestinians from their ancestrol homeland.

Pamela,
Your piece clearly shows how the Prophet was such a master in winning hearts and minds even of his sworn enemies. The Bush Inc. has a lot to learn from the example of the Prophet-pbuh.

Ross,
What about the Genocide of Bosnian Muslims? The Inquistion? the Holocaust? The over than one million dead Iraqis and more than four million refugees?

What about the on going holocaust of Palestinians for the past sixty years? See WWW.PALNDS.ORG

Azhar’s Scholars in Egypt
In his book, "Jurisprudence in Muhammad’s Biography", the Azhar scholar, Dr. Muhammad Sa’id Ramadan al-Buti says the following (page 134, 7th edition):
"The Holy War, as it is known in Islamic Jurisprudence, is basically an offensive war. This is the duty of Muslims in every age when the needed military power becomes available to them. This is the phase in which the meaning of Holy War has taken its final form. Thus the apostle of God said: ‘I was commanded to fight the people until they believe in God and his message ..."’

Anonymous,

Your words below are either said out of ignorance or they are straight up lies:

"It is important to note that in Qur’an there is no concept of war of aggression and no concept of permissiveness of violence. Even where permission of war has been given it has been given to defend and protect rights of the oppressed and exploited, and not for achieving power. There is no verse in the Qur’an which permits violence for conquering territory or for achieving power."

The Qur'an in conflict with what you say says:

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (Surah 9:5).

Surah 9:5 is set in the context of condemning Christians who believe in the trinity.

Consider the words of your prophet:

"I have been ordered by God to fight with people till they bear testimony to the fact that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammed is his messenger, and that they establish prayer and pay Zakat (money). If they do it, their blood and their property are safe from me" (see Bukhari Vol. I, p. 13).

Give me a break Eboo, the hadiths are full of murders perpetrated by Muhammad. Where in the Qur'an does it say to forgive your enemies unconditionally? You have no leg to stand on at least the Jihadists are true to the example of Muhammad and the Qur'an they follow.

The Washington Post Newsweek Magazine has turned into the Islamic Jihad propaganda machine. How much Islamic Jihad propaganda can you pump out in a week?

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:)

You : Poor, poor, poor Jihadist!!!

Moi : Islamic banking and financial services is doing very well and not poorly at all.

You : She still cannot come to grips with the flaws in her warmongering religion.

Moi : Islam is perfect.

You : She knows them well so we have done our part as global citizens.

Moi : You global citizen? More like imposing Americanisation and Crossanized Christianianity in the world.

You : Bottom line: Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe.

Moi : Until the neocons and their cohorts are gone, until there is no stated and bragged American century and intended hegemony, the world will not be safe. The American foreign policy is deeply flawed. The Qur'an stays as it. You can "deflawed" the Bible all you want and can.

--------------------------------------------------

Halozcel

Ahh.......so I will get into jingoistic red, white and blue, and a bit of yellow. The colour of the Malaysian flag. Rah! Rah! LOL

You : You must face the realities of islam.Look at Malaysia. Once,the star country of Far East is speedly marching to the *medieval age*,because islam is the *civilization killer*.

Moi : In the mess of many non-Muslim Asian states, Malaysia is pretty sober and stable. You should look beyond Muslim states in Asia and Africa to see they are all in a civilisational killers too. And all these mess is their own doings.

Buddhist Thailand has a coup again, and some 18 constitutions already. Catholic Phillippines is an overpopulated mess. Non-Muslim Singapore is sterile. Non-Muslim Vietnam is communistic/socialistic. Hindu India is in election/political flux and so is the whole of South Asia/Indian subcontinent. Increasingly Christian South Korea is paranoid. Officially no belief China is quite repressive and Buddhist Burma is in a state of oppression.

"J"

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

And supposedly Jesus said "Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself", 600 years before Mo's scribes "borrowed" your referenced passage from the NT. Of course, the NT authors "borrowed" it from the OT. And the authors of OT "borrowed" a lot from the Hittites, Canaanites, Greeks, Babylonians and Persians.

Also, there is some doubt that the passage was actually said by the historic Jesus, http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/201_The_Chief_Commandment

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

By Him in Whose hand my soul is, a man does not believe till he likes for his brother what he likes for himself.
The Prophet Mohammed (may God bless him and grant him peace)

Poor, poor, poor Jihadist!!! She still cannot come to grips with the flaws in her warmongering religion. She knows them well so we have done our part as global citizens.

Bottom line: Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe.

Deja Vu,Denzel Washington.The Great Movie.

Yes,I wonder why...

*Religion Police*(so-called the fasting police,islamic SS units) in Malaysia.
I wonder what they do and I wonder why.
People,in Malaysia,are obligated to put their savings at *islamic bank*.I wonder why.Where is *no compulsion in islam*.
Esmod Fashion School.Very little girls have been covered by *hijab*.I wonder why.
PAS,islamofascist party of Malaysia.Deja Vu.Yes,deja vu,next *talaban country*.Dont you wonder why ?

Anonymous,Nov.19,2007 1:28 AM,

Could you write any *merciful and peaceful* islamic land(if exists).

Anon,you can not correct anything and you can not create anything(except terror) by empty words and palaver.
You must face the realities of islam.Look at Malaysia.Once,the star country of Far East is speedly marching to the *medieval age*,because islam is the *civilization killer*.

BUTTERFLY LADY-

As for times of war, Allah commands Muslims to grant refuge to enemies if they should ask for it, and forbids anyone to harm them. This is stated in the Qur’an, where Allah says what means: {If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge} (At-Tawbah 9:6).

there are lots more, but this specifically answers your question.

SOJA_

“My mercy prevails over My wrath.”

Reward for kindness and compassion was also assured by the Prophet Muhammad: “The merciful are shown mercy by the All-Merciful. Show mercy to those on earth, and He Who is in heaven will show mercy unto you” (As-Suyuti).

A Prophet’s Mercy

Concerning Prophet Muhammad’s mercy, it is best to mention first what Allah Himself has said about him: {We have not sent thee save as a mercy to the worlds} (Al-Anbiyaa’ 21:107), which assures that Islam is founded on mercy, and that Allah sent Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as mercy to all creatures with no exception
Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to
us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes,
and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all)
prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one
and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
surah al-baqarah (2.136)

Prophet replied, “He who does not show mercy, no mercy would be shown to him” (Al-Bukhari).

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:)

Hello pussycat. You're my favourite exponent of flawless thinking and benchmark of compassion, humility and love here.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated

vs

Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad

Hand downs, I'm with the illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Semites who are messsengers and prophets of God.

By God, to think that everyone from Hitchens to Concerned the Christian Now Liberated/Crossanized Christian/Catholic of Reality to be screaming against them.

More cliches from a believer:

- Believers believe all problems in the world can be solved by faith.

- Non-believers believe that all problems in the world are due to religion.

"J"

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:)

You : "And who funds these acts of terror? The Islamic Shiite terror theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia."

Moi : Long past and gone. Everyone in the Muslim world who can read knows about "Clean Break - A New Strategy for Securing the Realm", and "Project for the New American Century". So, nice try and a futile one to divert attention and fix the blame. I wonder why that is.

More and more Muslims are not believing 9/11 are by Muslims, but a conspiracy by the darker and blacker underbelly of Israeli-American foreign policy. I wonder why that is.

Oh yes, don't forget to also look out for experts on the Middle East, terrorism, Iran associated with with Scientific Applications International Corporation (SAIC) coming out in the print and electronic media to spin on Iran as the "threat". Might as well let Benyamin Netanyahu said so himself. I wonder why that is.

Heard it all before prior to US going to attack, invade and occupy Iraq, and now very similar for Iran. Deja vu. I wonder why that is.

Perhaps we learn faster than you. Go ahead, kill us all, nuke us all, including Mecca that you've spoken of to nuke so many times in On Faith. Why all the song and dance instead of going ahead just to it if that is the right and only true thing to do?

Oh yes, go ahead and secure the external realm for the homeland whatever the cost to everyone, especially American taxpayers. Build bunkers and walls around your home and country. I wonder why that is.

Go ahead, nuke Mecca and get it over with rather than spouting it On Faith threads again and again to your fellow Americans. I'll bet if a Muslim said here he wants to nuke Washington, the FBI will be in his home in a jiffy and he be sent to Gitmo and given an experience in waterboarding.

.....and what makes you think Muslims don't think a westerner can't do such acts as when an Australian did at the Holy Sanctuary in Jeruselem - the Al Aqsa Mosque and the people praying there?

Go ahead, compare us to gators some more. Call us vile and evil some more. Whatever it takes for you to make it easier to torture us. To kill us. To bomb us. To nuke us and whatever to baptise this whole world with Judeo-Christian western "civilisation" and such, no?

Being insane, rabid and foaming at the mouth is easy no? LOL

"J"

For Anon only, so that he/she can get real with warmongering Islam:

To wit (once again):

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? The Islamic Shiite terror theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Compassion is far more central to Islam than jihad. It is certain happenings in history of Islam and also in contemporary world that this impression about jihad goes round.

In fact compassion represents the true spirit of Islam and compassion is far more vital to Islamic teachings than any thing else. In fact compassion in Islam, after the concepts of unity of God (tawhid) and risalah (messengership of Muhammad) is as central to Islam as it is to Buddhism.

There are certain key words in the Qur’an which are greatly stressed of which four are very often repeated i.e. rahmah, ihsan ‘adl, and hikmah (compassion, benevolence, justice and wisdom). Rahmah (compassion, mercy) and its roots abound in the Holy Qur’an. Among Allah’s own names are Rahman and Rahim (compassionate and Merciful). A Muslim begins everything by reciting Bi Ism-i- Allah al-Rahman al-Rahim (i.e. begin in the name of Allah Who is Compassionate and Merciful). Thus a Muslim is supposed to invoke Allah the Compassionate and Merciful at every step. He does not invoke Allah’s other names (Allah has 99 names according to the Islamic belief) as he invokes Him as Merciful and Compassionate.

The very first chapter of the Qur’an has the second verse as Al-Rehman al-Rahim (The Compassionate, the Merciful). The first verse too carries the sense of compassion when it describes Allah as Rabb al-‘Alamin (i.e. Sustainer of the whole world). The concept of sustenance of the whole world itself is based on His Mercy and Compassion for every thing He has created. In fact rahmah is so central to Allah’s existence that it embraces all that exists in the universe (wasi`at kulla shayin) see verse 40:7.

In fact He sent His Messenger Muhammad also as the Mercy of the World (21:107). Thus the Prophet of Islam also represents universal mercy. As the Messenger of Allah he is representative of His Mercy and hence the Prophet himself is known as rahmatan lil `alamin (mercy of the worlds). Thus a true follower of the Prophet (PBUH) has to be merciful and compassionate to the extent humanly possible. Any one who is cruel and has no sensitivity towards sufferings of others cannot be Prophet’s true follower in any sense.

It is important to note that in Qur’an there is no concept of war of aggression and no concept of permissiveness of violence. Even where permission of war has been given it has been given to defend and protect rights of the oppressed and exploited, and not for achieving power. There is no verse in the Qur’an which permits violence for conquering territory or for achieving power.

And what is the way of Allah? Allah’s way is of justice, Allah’s way is of protecting the rights of the poor and exploited. In fact the very first verse in the Qur’an permitting the use of violence reflects this very well. It says: “And what reason you have not to fight in the way of Allah, and of the weak among the men and the women and the children, who say: Our Lord, take us out of this town, whose people are oppressors, and grant us from Thee a friend, and grant us from Thee a helper.” (4:75) (emphasis added).

Since any fighting has been permitted only in the way of Allah it cannot be a war of aggression in any case. It has to be only on compassionate grounds, not on any ground and hence the doctrine of compassion remains central. If there is no other way to liberate the oppressed except through use of force only then use of force will be justified otherwise not

Not only that the Qur’an wants to remove those who are arrogant because of their wealth and power and empower the weak so that there is no suffering in the world. It says clearly and unambiguously “And We desired to bestow a favour upon those who were deemed weak in the land, and to make them the leaders, and to make them the inheritors.” (28:5) Thus the Qur’an favours the mustad`ifin (the weaker sections) to the mustakbirin (those powerful and arrogant).

The powerful and the arrogant people are insensitive to others suffering and want to grab as much as they can – be it wealth, be it territory or be it symbols of power. In the Qur’anic approach the powerful are most insensitive and hence most un-compassionate. They are overpowered by the greed and hence can never understand others needs. Therefore, the Qur’an says that “And those who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in Allah’s way – announce to them a painful chastisement.” (9:34)

In several verses of the Qur’an one finds strong denunciation of the accumulation of wealth. The chapters 104 sand 107 are devoted to denunciation of accumulation of wealth and not helping the poor and sufferers. Thus compassion becomes quite an important concept in all these verses.

Compassion towards the poor is so important that the Prophet used to say that even if one person remains hungry in a locality no angel will descend in that locality until that hungry person is fed. Also the Prophet is reported to have said that it is more meritorious to feed an hungry widow than to pray whole night.

It was his compassion for the weaker sections of society that he not only got Bilal Habashi manumitted but gave him the highest honour of giving azan i.e. calling the faithfuls to prayer five times. This honour was denied even to his closest colleagues who intensely desired it. If it was not compassion for the weaker section what was it? It is this compassion which is most desirable aspect of Islamic teaching.

The Qur’an itself, as pointed out earlier, uses the word rahm (mercy, compassion) repeatedly. This word and its various derivatives has been used more than 326 times. According to Mufradat al-Qur’an by Imam Raghib, an authentic dictionary of the Qur’anic terms rahmah means softening of heart towards one who deserves our mercy and induces us to do good to him/her. It is interesting to note that the womb of mother is also called rahm. Mother is always very soft towards her children (raqiq) and showers love and affection on them. Thus anyone who does to others qualifies for rahm. Thus to cultivate rahm is to be faithful to ones mother.

The Qur’an also says that the believers (mu’minin) are merciful to each other. Allah is named by the Qur’an as Rahim and Rahman. And according to Mufradat of Imam Raghib Rahman is one whose mercy encompasses all, not all human beings but also entire creation. Thus only Allah can be Rahman, no one else. We human beings have our own limitations. We love our fellow religionists more than those belonging to other religious groups; we love those speaking our own tongue more than those speaking other tongues and we love human beings more than the animals.

But it is not so with Allah. Allah loves and showers His Mercy equally on all. And if we are really worshippers of Allah we too should not make such distinctions. We should love all human beings equally whether they belong to our religion or not, whether they speak our tongue or not and whether they have same colour of skin as we have or not. If Allah is Rahman (Compassionate) to all we, His servants too should try to imitate Him as much as we can. True ‘ibadah (worshipping) can be claimed only when we try to imbibe elements of His attributes.

Thus a real Muslim is one who despite being firm in his/her faith tradition shows equal love and compassion for all human beings whether they belong to his faith tradition or not. Every faith tradition is unique and should be recognised as such but it should not become a tool of discrimination. The Qur’an itself declares that all human beings, all children of Adam have been honoured equally (17:70). Thus there is no justification in showing any discrimination on the basis of faith as far as the Qur’an is concerned.

The lesson is clear what to believe and who is right and who is wrong should be left to Allah rather than our weak judgement. Our judgement is often influenced by several factors including our ego, our interests, our beliefs, colour of our skin and our ethnicity. Allah alone can judge most impartially. Thus our respect for others and our compassion should not be meant for limited number of groups. It should be as wide in sweep as possible.

When the Qur’an refers to weaker sections (musta`ifun) it does not qualify it with Muslim. It uses mustad`ifun as inclusive of all human beings. And all of them are equally entitled to our compassion and Allah’s mercy, no less, no more. The Qur’an no where uses words like Muslim orphans, Muslim widows or Muslim slaves. It uses these words in general without any qualification whatsoever. Similarly the Qur’an does not use any qualification for the powerful and arrogant mustakbirun. They can belong to any religion, race or ethnicity. Arrogance is condemnable found anywhere.

The Qur’an’s attitude is so compassionate towards all human beings that even in the matter of wasiyyah (i.e. making a will) it advises that if apart from your relatives, some one needy is present at that time, make some provision for them also. Also, the Qur’an uses the word sadaqah for charity which is derived from the root sidq which means truthfulness. Real charity (sadaqah) is one which is done with sincerity and truthfulness. Anything which is given to show off, or not with sincere and compassionate intention, will not quality as sadaqah.

Only that feeling qualifies for compassion, which moves our heart for suffering of others and that motivates us to help others. Thus the use of the word sadaqah for charity is very significant. It is the condition of a human person, rather than his/her religion that should move us to help. Compassion is the best quality one can have towards other creatures, particularly towards other human beings and animals. It is suffering which is most fundamental not one's religion, language or race.

A Qur’anic verse which describes some of the qualities of a good believer says, “ Those who spend in ease as well as in adversity and those who restrain (their) anger and pardon men. And Allah loves doers of good (to others).” (3:133).

Thus it will be seen that those who control their anger and pardon others and do good to others are those whom Allah loves. And these qualities are very much the basis of compassion. Anger and violence are always denounced by Allah. They are just opposite of compassion. One of Allah’s name is Ghafur i.e. one who pardons, one who is not revengeful. A compassionate person can never be revengeful.

Thus one can conclude from closer study of Qur'an and hadith that compassion is the best human quality and no one deserves to be human unless he is compassionate. Thus it is quite central to the teachings of Islam.

************************************

On what happens to enemies who do not surrender to Allah's will: read the post on chronology of Islam in the Quran for the fate of Jews who were in fact people of 'The Book.'

A super mom

My mother was married when she was only sixteen. She bore my father six children by the age of twenty eight. She would have continued to have more children because she "conceives easily" like Pamela Taylor. Luckily my father was advised to take preventive measures to stop with six children. My mother remained faithful to my father even in thought until his death forty two years after their marriage. She has not remarried or wouldn't even dream of another man although she didn't get the kind of love she deserved from her husband.

If my mother had written the sort of stuff that Pamela Taylor has in first her essay about "conceiving easily" and how she could breast feed twins etc, I would hold her in contempt. Billions, literally billions of women conceive easily and breastfeed their children without giving it a second thought. It is considered natural for women around the world to conceive and breastfeed their children; it does not count as Harvard Divinity School achievement.

I find it interesting that the story focuses on Sufyan's voluntary repentance and subsequent efforts to be more submissive to G-d's will. It seems he was one of those who "deserve" to be forgiven. What is the position on enemies who do not repent? I'm not sure if this is a theological difference, or just Taylor's choice of a good story.

Pamela Taylor passing off fiction as Islam and plagiarising what she can from other sources without mentioning the original source. Hmmm...

She is a freelance writer.
Her first love is *fiction*
She is reading * ''Super Mom'' saves the World*.
She is writing ''short stories'',*Vampires and Werewolves and Monsters,Oh My!*
And *Super Mom* will save (islamic) world.
I support her.May Allah help her.

"What exactly it is that makes the difference between war and massacre, and I think the answer will be that war becomes massacre when the noncombatant is denied the right to surrender."

L C R Sedgwick (in The New York Times)

By the above definition, would it not have constituted mass massacre in revenge (an army of 10,000 fighting for Mohammad pitted against a small group of people that were willing to fight on Abu Sufyan's side), not war, if Mohammad had NOT accepted Abu Sufyan's surrender? Did Mohammad himself not have much to gain by accepting Abu Sufyan's terms of surrender, in terms of saving the lives of his own army, and peaceful, resistance free, acceptance of his politico-religious leadership by all the people?

Ms Pamela Taylor wrote:

"This simple request for forgiveness has always touched me as a great act of humility and a beautiful expression of a core Islamic value. That of humility..."

"But the reality is we are all humans with the same basic desires and needs. No one human being is more deserving of wealth or happiness than any other human being. And that includes our enemies..."

"Another cardinal principle of Islam is that we should want for our fellow humans what we want for ourselves. As we would like to be forgiven, so too we should forgive. And that also includes our enemies..."

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Where exactly in the Quran are the above mentioned core values of Islam supposed to be written?

Love for enemies is at the core of the teaching of Jesus Christ ("love your neighbours as yourself" was already taught in the Old Testament and Jesus went on to teach in the Sermon on the Mount that He wanted His disciples to go further than that) and He lived His life in accordance with His teaching, forgiving everyone while He lay dying on the cross. I have read no parallel of it in the Quran although Mohammad said he had been sent to confirm previous Scripture.

It does confuse me a bit. Maybe a Muslim could shed more light?

Hmmm, The Jihadist is on a roll. She almost faults Iran for being a "problem" country in another commentary then she repeats one of the more traveled internet jokes but changed it from a priest playing golf to an imam playing golf. But borrowing other people's "stuff" is typical of the Islamics for the last 1400 years.

And of course, there again is no mention of the real problems with warmongering Islam i.e. its foundations based on the hallucinations of a Arab named Mohammed. Borrowed that too i.e. Christianity is based on the hallucinations of one or more first century CE Jews.

Ms Pamela Taylor wrote:

"On the eve of Muhammad's return to Mecca with an army of 10,000 men, Abu Sufyan came to him in the night and declared his acceptance of Islam. He told the prophet that if there had been a god other than Allah, it surely would have come to his assistance in his fight against Islam, and, thus, since he had failed, he could only accept that there was only one God and that Muhammad was indeed His prophet.

"It would have been reasonable for Muhammad to doubt this conversion, considering that Abu Sufyan was facing death at the hands of Muhammad's soldiers the next morning. It would have been reasonable to accept the conversion, but to keep Abu Sufyan at a distance, given the personal enmity that had occurred. Instead, the Prophet accepted him fully, forgave him instantly, and honored him by decreeing that any who sought the protection of Abu Sufyan would be safe from the Muslims the next morning.

"Abu Sufyan returned to Mecca and urged his people not to fight, but to seek peace and as a result, the armies of Muhammad entered Mecca with no bloodshed.

"On the eve of Muhammad's return to Mecca with an army of 10,000 men, Abu Sufyan came to him in the night and declared his acceptance of Islam. He told the prophet that if there had been a god other than Allah, it surely would have come to his assistance in his fight against Islam, and, thus, since he had failed, he could only accept that there was only one God and that Muhammad was indeed His prophet.

"It would have been reasonable for Muhammad to doubt this conversion, considering that Abu Sufyan was facing death at the hands of Muhammad's soldiers the next morning. It would have been reasonable to accept the conversion, but to keep Abu Sufyan at a distance, given the personal enmity that had occurred. Instead, the Prophet accepted him fully, forgave him instantly, and honored him by decreeing that any who sought the protection of Abu Sufyan would be safe from the Muslims the next morning.

"Abu Sufyan returned to Mecca and urged his people not to fight, but to seek peace and as a result, the armies of Muhammad entered Mecca with no bloodshed."

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According to the chronology of Islam as listed in the Quran (The Koran, translated by N J Dawood Edition 2003):

622 The Hijra (Flight or Migration) of Muhammad and his followers to Medina, and beginning of the Muslim era

624 Battle of Badr: the Quraysh defeated by the Muslims

625 Battle of Uhud: the Muslims defeated

626 The Jewish tribe of al-Nadir crushed and expelled

627 'The War of the Ditch' - the Meccans' expedition against the Muslims in Medina. Attackers driven off

627 The Jewish tribe of Qurayzah raided by Muhammad

628 The Treaty of Hudaybiyya; truce with the Quraysh, who recognize Muhammad's right to proselytize without hindrance

629 Truce broken by the Quraysh. The Jews of Khaybar put to the sword. Muhammad sends letters and messengers to the Kings of Persia, Yemen, and Ethiopia and the Emperor Heraclius, inviting them to accept Islam.

630 Mecca taken by Muhammad - the entire population converted, and the Ka'bah established as teh religious centre of Islam

632, 8 June Death of Muhammad, three months after his return to Medina

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Question: How does the incident related by Ms Taylor differ from a political peace treaty?

- Muhammad had an army of 10,000 men with which he was going to challenge Abu Sufyan

- Abu Sufyan had a little following himself who had been involved in fighting Mohammad previously. It could be no match for Mohammad's army of 10,000. Now Sufyan was going to urge his people not to fight Mohammad and offer his daughter in marriage to him in return for Mohammad's acceptance of his peaceful surrender. Further Abu Sufyan and his son would have important positions under the political Islamic rule of Mohammad.

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The following Wikipedia link provides some introductory information about political peace treaties outside the context of a religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_treaty

A peace treaty is an agreement between two hostile parties, usually countries or governments, that formally ends a war or armed conflict. It is different from an armistice, which is an agreement to cease hostilities, or a surrender, in which an army agrees to give up arms.

One of the earliest recorded peace treaties was concluded between the Hittite and Egyptian empires after the ca.1274 BC Battle of Kadesh. The battle took place in what is modern-day Syria, the entire Levant being at that time contested between the two empires. After an extremely costly four-day battle, in which neither side gained a substantial advantage, both sides claimed victory. The lack of resolution led to further conflict between Egypt and the Hittites with Ramesses II capturing the city of Kadesh and Amurru in his 8th Year.[1] However, the prospect of further protracted conflict between the two states eventually persuaded both their rulers, Hatusilli III and Ramesses to end their dispute and sign a peace treaty. Both sides could not afford the possibility of a longer conflict since they were threatened by other enemies: Egypt was faced with the task of defending her long western border with Libya against the incursion of Libyan tribesmen by building a chain of fortresses stretching from Mersa Matruh to Rakotis while the Hittites faced a more formidable threat in the form of the Assyrian Empire which "had conquered Hanigalbat, the heartland of Mitanni, between the Tigris and the Euphrates" rivers that had previously been a Hittite vassal state.

The peace treaty was recorded in two versions, one in Egyptian hieroglyphs, the other in Akkadian, using cuneiform script; fortunately, both versions survive. Such dual-language recording is common to many subsequent treaties. This treaty differs from others, however, in that the two language versions are differently worded. Although the majority of the text is identical, the Hittite version claims that the Egyptians came suing for peace, while the Egyptian version claims the reverse. The treaty was given to the Egyptians in the form of a silver plaque, and this "pocket-book" version was taken back to Egypt and carved into the Temple of Karnak.
The Treaty was concluded between Ramesses II and Hattusili III in Year 21 of Ramesses' reign.[3] (c.1258 BC) Its eighteen articles calls for peace between Egypt and Hatti and then proceeds to maintain that their respective gods also demand peace. It contains many elements found in more modern treaties, although it is perhaps more far-reaching than later treaties' simple declaration of the end of hostilities. It also contains a mutual-assistance pact in the event that one of the empires should be attacked by a third party, or in the event of internal strife. There are articles pertaining to the forced repatriation of refugees and provisos that they should not be harmed; this might be thought of as the first extradition treaty. There are also threats of retribution, should the treaty be broken.

This treaty is considered of such importance in the field of international relations that a reproduction of it hangs in the United Nations headquarters.

Elements of treaties

There are many possible issues which may be included in a peace treaty, and a treaty's content usually depends heavily on the nature of the conflict being concluded. Some of these may be:

• Formal designation of borders.
• Processes for resolving future disputes
• Access to and apportioning of natural resources
• Status of prisoners
• Status of refugees
• Settling of existing debts
• Settling of ownership claims
• Defining of proscribed behavior
• The re-application of existing treaties

Treaties are often ratified in territories deemed neutral in the previous conflict and delegates from these neutral territories act as witnesses to the signatories. In the case of large conflicts between numerous parties there may be one international treaty covering all issues or separate treaties signed between each party.

In modern times certain intractable conflict situations may first be brought to a cease-fire and are then dealt with via a peace process where a number of discrete steps are taken on each side to eventually reach the mutually desired goal of peace and the signing of a treaty. A peace treaty also is often not used to end a civil war, especially in cases of a failed secession, as it implies mutual recognition of statehood. In cases such as the American Civil War, it usually ends when the armies of the losing side surrender and the government collapses.

By contrast, a successful secession or declaration of independence is often formalized by means of a peace treaty.

Assalamu Alaikum
Imam Pamela Taylor

A friend saw that I addressed you here as Imam and laughed, pointing out many Muslims and non-Muslims may misunderstood. Let them. After all, women do lead women in prayers and there are many Ustazahs and female members of the ulema in Indonesia and Malaysia.

Thanks for your essay on forgiveness. Out here, the imams are certainly not against punishment againsts trangressors of crimes against anyone. And on forgiveness, the imams in the mosques fundamentally emphasised it down to essentially - sincerely ask for forgiveness to those whom you transgressed in any way. If they forgive or don't forgive you, God the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate will if you are sincere and never repeat your transgression.

I must say the imams are too constant a reminder on morals, ethics and values with their sermons on everything from corruption to government inefficiency to drug abuse to Hollywood movies such as "Hostel" I and II. They do make me squirm guiltily when they start ranting about us not doing anything, the right thing about it:)

Religion is the greatest reminders and checks on our excessess. A "radicalised" imam, who has had enough of everything and anything he sees wrong with us and urge action, is the greatest threat to effete and ineffective Muslim goverments.

As for this upcoming Hajj, I am happy for my family members, friends and colleagues going. I envy them, even if I had performed it and want to do so again sometime again.

Thanks for reminding on Satan's arrogance. My neighbourhood imam, during the recent Eid El Fitr prayers sermon, diverted from his prepared text and said, as an offside punch on arrogance, a great sin, that will lead us to our own downfall (I hope I translated it into English well here) -

"Satan, was the smartest of all God's angels, but he was an arrogant fool. He thought as he could tempt Adam, Adam's descendants would be no problem. The poor arrogant sod is now overwhelmed and possibly overworked. One of him and six billion of us. So, why are some of us blaming Satan for everything that is our own fault? He's probably not around tempting you when you cheated on your tax returns or your Ramadan fast. And Satan is not so smart after all, just arrogant."

Malaysian imams do lace their sermons with biting humour, ridicule, sarcasm and satire to make points. Seems to be a tradition from God knows when to have Mullah Nasruddin-like sermons. I like it that they do it that way as everyone, adults and children, grasp immediately, remember and relate to others. Some of the best humour on our political, economic, social and religious foibles are from the imams of the mosques.

My lame revenge on imams:

An imam was supposed to lead prayers and deliver the sermon for one Friday prayers. Instead, he called in sick and ask an alternate imam to take his place so he can play golf.

The imam was careful to play alone so there be no witnesses on what he actually did instead of leading Friday prayers.

The imam's two accompaying angels recording his good and bad deeds were concerned, confered and pondered what sort of punishment the imam would get for lying and shirking his responsibility.

The imam got a hole in one. The first angel turns to other:

Angel I: "Is that punishment?"

Angel II: "Yes. Who can he tell about it to?"

Actually, the above joke was related by another imam in one of the sermons at his mosque. He also once said hatred is pointless and its consuming energy better channeled into productive efforts towards peace and justice for the community's good.

I cannot agree more with him, my neighbourhood imam and you on hatred and forgiveness. I take better when peace and justice, ethics and values are spoken of and acted on by religious leaders over politicians, including those of other faiths such as the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu.

Peace be with you.

"J"

The Genocide of The Jews

http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/montazeri4.htm

Reading the above debate one muslim wrote the following to S.K.Mirza
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One senior retired professor in Canada wrote me: “this debate broke my heart, I could not sleep for several nights, and it has surely shattered my dream which I was harboring in my heart for the last sixty some years. As a human being—I have become completely naked. Especially, I could not understand why and what for Prophet of Islam had to slaughter (beheading) some 900 hundreds of surrendered unarmed human beings in the war of Banu Qurayza. I can not imagine what was the actual scenery of that cruel episode? And I will never understand how the Prophet named this religion as—religion of peace?”
------------------------------------------

Pamela, Pamela, Pamela,

You noted:

"As we would like to be forgiven, so too we should forgive. And that also includes our enemies."

Apparently your Sunni and Shiite brothers and sisters missed that koranic passage. Then there are all those "koranic-driven" suicide bombers. Not much forgiveness in these crazy Islamics!!!

So get with the reality of the Sunni vs Shiite 24/7 blood feud and the Muslim "kamikazes" before giving us more "wishy-washy" rhetoric about your forgiving founder and religion.

Anon-anon wrote:
Still obsessed about what happened in the days of Mohammad to women who broke the sexual code in Islam either through adultery or fornication.

My concern was with "forgiveness" (as suggested on the first line).

Anon-anon wrote:
It is disingenious to go on about what Mohammad did 1400 years ago.

If muslims like pamela keep harping on about the Mo good deeds why must I not highlight the evil perpetrated by him ?
Why should I bury my head in the sand like muslims as far as Mo's evil deeds are concerned ?
What Mo did 1400 years ago is revelant because stoning and other barbaric punishments still take place in many islamic countries to this day.

Anon-anon wrote:
How about fighting to "liberate" yourself from the obsession concerning all things sexual in Islam.

My obsession is to expose evil cults and false prophets. It is not me who is obsessed with sex but this cult and its fornicating prophet.

If I was obsessed with sex in islam I'd be a muslim by now, after all 72 virgins, 4 wives some as young as 9 years, divorce and remarry when ever you feel like it, non muslim women as concubines etc is a jackpot for those sexually obsessed !

Ross,

Still obsessed about what happened in the days of Mohammad to women who broke the sexual code in Islam either through adultery or fornication. Islam needs no non-Muslim champion who fights for sexual permissiveness in women. People break sexual codes of behaviour even without having a champion like you fighting to "liberate" them. It is disingenious to go on about what Mohammad did 1400 years ago. How about fighting to "liberate" yourself from the obsession concerning all things sexual in Islam.

Here's an excellent example of islamic forgiveness!!
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An unwed m o t h e r was stoned to death after she delivered the baby even though she repented profusely.

Narrated Imran ibn Husayn: Book 38, Number 4426:

A woman belonging to the tribe of Juhaynah (according to the version of Aban) came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that she had committed fornication and that she was pregnant. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) called her guardian. Then the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to him: Be good to her, and when she bears a child, bring her (to me). When she gave birth to the child, he brought her (to him). The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) gave orders regarding her, and her clothes were tied to her. He then commanded regarding her and she was s t o n e d to d e a t h.

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A salaamu alikum pamela- that was simply and eloquently beautiful