Re-Examine Your Faith

And now we have Muslims in India resorting to violence because the Indian government granted Taslima Nasreen political asylum (from a fatwa issued by Islamic radicals in her native Bangladesh).

Freedom of expression is also constitutionally protected in India. If Muslims resort to violence and try to hold the Government hostage, they should be held accountable under the law. No exceptions. India is not Saudi Arabia. And Victoria's arguments are plain stupid.

KaliPoliteis:

Quite right. The first impulse of Muslims here is to quote extensively from the Koran. I have always been saying: Who cares? Certainly, non-Muslims--the world outside of Islam--doesn't care. We only care how Muslims actually practice their faith. Action speaks louder than all the quotes from the Koran or some other Islamic text.

The fact is most Islamic countries are unstable, even prone to violence. Most of the violence results not only from Muslims killing each other, but also Islamic radicals who look at the world throug jaundiced eyes. There is a hugely negative viewpoint espoused by Islamic philosophy that divides the world into believers and infidels. This philosophy has given rise to a mentality of intolerance, narrow-mindedness, and a false sense of superiority among Muslims. That phiolosophy has to be rejected, even if "God" said it. As a Hindu, I say, no God is above common sense. This is consistent with Buddhism as well. The Buddha said that if Buddhists apply His teachings in real life and find that they bring about a negative result, then that teaching should be rejected. People should not accept a teaching just because it is in the Buddhists scriptures or the Buddha said it. So Muslims should reject this stupid kafir business. Now I am sure some Muslims here will say--No,No, you don't understand. Actually, kafir does not mean what you say. The Koran says..........

Again, who cares? Muslims are practicing this kafir ideology. To the extent Muslims believe in kafirs and that they are holy and superior relative to non-believers, it is a short step to becoming violent against non-believers, persecute them, or worse turn into suicide bombers. After all, it's only kafirs they are killing. Change the phiolosophy, change the thinking.

dronpas

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wow teresa you said that very well

peace

If you ask the wrong question you get the wrong answer, or if you begin something twisted it will stay twisted. This thread began with the idea that Muslim extremists need to re-examine their faith. That is TRUE, but it is just as true that ALL extremists of any faith or belief need to re-examine their faith and their consequent actions and language toward others based on that belief system. I am Jewish, but I believe all persons of true faith have a right to that faith. Moreover,if we do not soon learn to respect one another's beliefs worldwide and stop the hate mongering on ALL sides then we may not have a world to enjoy. We are here to make this world a better place. Are we doing that?

sophia

you raised an interesting point with your doubt about the laws in indonesia and malaysia.

thats really the point- it IS sharia law, its the qu'ran - its not an "interesting interpretation by victoria".

by relegating it to an 'interesting' status you are basically dismissing it as a sideline, or offbeat or personal justification-

it is not my opinion, interpretation, or rationalization.

it is also quite easy to validate.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FROM AN-NISA (THE WOMEN) QU'RAN

"These are ALLAH's laws. Those who obey ALLAH and His messenger, He will admit them into gardens with flowing streams, wherein they abide forever. This is the greatest triumph.

4:14 As for the one who disobeys ALLAH and His messenger, and transgresses His laws, He will admit him into Hell, wherein he abides forever. He has incurred a shameful retribution.

4:15 Those who commit adultery among your women, you MUST HAVE four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1) so you see, first it is established as the laws of ALLAH-

2)then a warning is given not to disobey or trangress those laws.

3) then the law itself is stated.

so you see- IT IS WHAT IT IS-
not because i "interpret it" in an 'interesting(read non-mainstream) way.

it is very specific and very clear.

how would you interpret that?

these boards started november 2006

i have answered ross at extraordinary length- many many times

its not an issue of
your statement-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If they had an answer to your question, I'm sure they would have obliged you with an answer."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

we have obliged and obliged and obliged

commented directly upon by my statement-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"ross already knows this as ive explained it to him time and time and time and time again

it is really tiring retelling the same thing over and over again"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

you seem to be getting a bit tired from one post of his repeated and oblivious "questions"
(all rhetorical questions i assure you)

imagine doing it over and over for one year!

but i do it patiently just so that people who come onto these boards (like yourself) dont get the wrong info-

of course ross has been answered many times at length

this is his sneaky way of constantly misrepresenting muslims for the newcomers

go to any posting by imam pamela taylor and you will see

peace- i hope this gives you more insight into what islam actually IS
not what people want it to be

peace

To Ross,

You misunderstood my definition of insanity. The definition is about an act of insanity. One can be sane and still indulge in acts of insanity. If one jumped off a ladder expecting to fly into the air like a balloon insteading of landing on the ground, then the first attempt is not an act of insanity. But repeated attempts to achieve the impossible goal I'm sure you will agree is an "act of insanity."

So in this case, expecting Ms Pamela Taylor, Jihadist and Victoria to abolish the Sharia law on sexual immorality as instituted by Prophet Mohammad fourteen centuries ago or give an explanation for his behaviour during his lifetime - once, maybe twice or even three times, is not insanity. But to go on and on and on and on and on........, asking the selfsame question. If they had an answer to your question, I'm sure they would have obliged you with an answer. None of them were raised or live in countries that is ruled by Sharia law (as to Jihadist, I doubt if Indonesia or Malaysia puts anyone to death for fornication and adultery, in spite of a Muslim majority).

Victoria has come up with a very interesting interpretation of the law. It seems that punishment is justified only when the person is caught red-handed by four (not one, not two, not three) persons! It seems not so much about being wrong in the sight of Allah, who every Muslim believes sees all things done in secret. So only a person who is both sexually immoral and insane (to be caught red-handed by four persons) at the same time deserves the most severe punishment.

I take it that your time is precious. My suggestion that you invest it in fruitful pursuits was well meant.

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 135:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger."

ROSS

Are Muslims responsible for two world wars and dropping nuclear bombs on innocent people.Do you know how many people died of radiation after the war? Are muslims responsible for 200 years of bloody war in Europe in the name of religion?
ISLAM is an arabic word for PEACE.

There is social,political and economic reasons behind terrorism [oil for example].Islam has nothing to do with it.

Stoning is not mentioned in quran. Before ALLAH revealed punishment for certain crimes prophet used to refer torah or bible for clues. According to quran the punishment for adultery is 100 lashes. Stoning is against the principles of Quran. If at all any stoning was done it was the revelation of above statement

just for the record-

no justification is needed-

here is how it works exactly according to sharia law.

in the case of adultery or fornication(sex outside of marriage) there has to be 4 FOUR witnesses to the actual ACT.

not 3, not 2- not even if the husband comes in and cathces the wife indelicato flagrante

it has to be 4

also, the qu'ran states that IF THE FOUR ARE PRESENTED AS EYE WITNESSES- there is STILL the option of a house arrest for a woman.

now you may think this is harsh- but tell me- has anyone anywhere anytime ever heard of 4 witnesses to a sexual act?

also- there are the very speicific laws that insure and repsect privacy.
for instance, you cannot approach a persons home form the back door-

theres a hadeeth where a husband and wife are drinking wine in their kitchen.
(alcohol consumption IS forbidden in islam)

and the neighbor hoists himself onto their wall to spy on them,(also forbidden) then runs to tell on them to the Prophet(pbuh).

the Prophet(pbuh) instead of patting the spy on his head, reprimands him this way-

PERHAPS the couple committed a sin- but the neighbor had to commit 2 sons to relate it-
spying and disrespectng their islamically provided right to privacy.

the Prophet(pbuh) KNOWS that ALLAH sees everything.
that is the behavior of the Prophet(pbuh)

that is what sharia law states based on the qu'ran.

IF PEOPLE DONT FOLLOW IT THATS THEIR OWN RESPONSIBILITY BEFORE ALLAH

ross alread yknows this as ive explained it to him time and time and time and time again

it is really tiring retelling the same thing over and over again

Sophia wrote:
Definition of insanity: To do exactly the same thing expecting a different result. Good luck with playing your broken record until the end of YOUR time! If I were you I would find better use of my time.

Thank you for the advice, but I can assure you I am spending my time effectively exposing this cult of Injustice, Intolerance, Cruelty, Absurdities, discrimination, Contradictions and blind faith. A cult that advocates killing the non-Muslims and abuses the human rights of minorities and women. A cult that expanded mostly by Jihad and forced its way by killing the non-believers. A cult where apostasy is the biggest crime punishable by death. I'm not concerned at being called insane as long as I can expose the insanity caused by this cult.

Sophia wrote:
Seeking reformation of Islam is a realistic goal, but it is for Muslims to undertake that process.

Islam is an evil cult far worse than nazism or the KKK, exposing it is far more important that reforming it.
http://www.faithfreedom.org

Sophia wrote:
But trying to change what Prophet Mohammad did fourteen centuries ago?

How can I change what Mo did, I'm trying to alert people to his evil deeds. Muslims consider him a symbol of virtue and role model, this was evident in Victoria reply where she attempts to blame the mother and not Mo for the stoning.

Sophia wrote:
No attempt was made to explain or justify Sharia law as instituted by Prophet Mohammad.

Muslims are'nt supposed to explain Sharia laws only follow them.

Sophia wrote:
Sexual immorality was punished with death even in Judaism (Book of Leviticus). One thing is certain - Prophet Mohammad didn't invent the laws.

Even if he borrowed them he made it his (Allah's) own law. So one cannot blame judaism for Mo's behaviour. In fact I'm quite sure one could be arrest for blasphemy in an islamic country for suggesting Mo borrowed this law from judaism.

Sophia wrote:
Now, let your broken record play on...

I suggest you ignore it, it is meant for those who find stoning to death sickening especially when it is ordered by a founder of a cult whose followers boast is another word for peace. I hope posting this many times awakens muslims from this brainwashing and helps them "RE EXAMINE THEIR FAITH".

To Ross,

No attempt was made to explain or justify Sharia law as instituted by Prophet Mohammad. Sexual immorality was punished with death even in Judaism (Book of Leviticus). One thing is certain - Prophet Mohammad didn't invent the laws.

Now, let your broken record play on...

To Ross,

Definition of insanity: To do exactly the same thing expecting a different result. Good luck with playing your broken record until the end of YOUR time! If I were you I would find better use of my time. I would invest my energy in questions that can be answered. Seeking reformation of Islam is a realistic goal, but it is for Muslims to undertake that process. But trying to change what Prophet Mohammad did fourteen centuries ago? The song of your broken record has been listened to many many times. One might think you would be bored by now - it is not a classical song you know.

Sam,

You say *Dont allow Pamela or Victoria to say....*
Victoria is the Poster who writes at most.At this moment,as far as I see,there are at least 20 post written by her on all boards.
WashPost allows her to write whatever she likes(of course,within the rules which are valid for everyone)
But,but,but,Victoria doesnt allow,permit to reprint the cartoons.

Sam,
Islam mocks,derides Christian values.Islam insults the Trinity(although islam doesnt know what trinity is),but she advises someones *dont mock my cult*.

If you talk against rich and powerful you are branded as terrorist. Keep calling you bad boy,like hitler did to jews,then everything is justified.you can kill millions with your bombs[beware more research is going on to make more lethal bombs].Meanwhile media should targets bad boys constantly. Dont allow Pamela or Victoria to say there is a grain of goodness in bad boys. Otherwise whom will we bomb!

"Maybe the FREE WORLD should have a Mohammed Cartoon Drawing Contest and get Millions to submit their cartoons?

This way everyone who loves living in the free world can be creative and there would be lots of media coverage and voting on the best cartoon in cities, countries, and the world...

Why leave death threats and bounties on a few cartoonists and editors. Why not have millions of cartoons drawn around the world by anyone who can hold a pen? Its really very clever."

I think this idea has merit.

There is not *i* of islam in the American Civilization.
Abraham Lincoln,Jefferson and Americans fought for *the contemporary values*,not for *bedouin cult* which based on the stone age mentality.

American Civilization founded on Human Rights and Men-Women equality,not *two women equals one man*
Islam is not compatible with US Constitution.
Islam is against Human Rights.This is the *problem*.
Scoundrelism is the *humiliation and enslavement of women*
Scoundrelism is giving up the civilization to the terrorists.

Fasting,which is an *adaptation* from Judaism,is harmful for Human Health.
Fasting is a torture.
Fasting is idleness.

Victoria, Victoria,

You still have not come to grips with the flaws of Islam but still continue to hype your lineage and the flaws of others.

With respect to 27 USA newspapers running the cartoon of your beloved "holey not holy, warmongering, womanizing, hallucinator", please note that there were approximately 1400 USA newspapers that did not.

Now let us return to Duckphup's original suggestion and proceed with much haste:

"My simple solution requres only that for one whole month, every newspaper in the free world devote its front page to cartoons ridiculing Allah (peace on him) and Mohammed (peace on him, too). By the end of that time, all of Islam will have self-destructed in a paroxysm of snits, hissy-fits and terminal apoplexy."

believe in what you want miranda- as will i.

its not necessary for me to deride or mock your beliefs to validate my own.

me to mine and you to yours.

peace

Victoria posted

"if, for you, patriotism means to devalue our privilege and right of free speech to further your own particular fears of islam- so be it, but to me- that is a cheap misuse of what our freedoms are- which your relatives and mine fought and died to protect"

Its your comments that devalue our privilege and right of free speech.

"you'll notice the united states was the biggest provoker - reprinting the cartoons in 27 different newspapers!"

Your fervent belief in Islam (or anything else) does not curtail my right to disbelieve and find humor in your belief. Sorry old girl.

And if your wavering allegiance to American principles brings shame to your relatives, that's between you and them.

miranda- for the record my great times 8 grandfather was the first governor of pennsylvania-

i dont take that as a point to abuse by giving me an inflated sense of entitlement- but as an incentive to realize that freedom is a precious commodity- not to be abused with frivolous personal agendas-

samuel johnson said that 'patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel'.

he wasnt making an indictment of patriotism, only a condemnation of false patriotism.

if, for you, patriotism means to devalue our privilege and right of free speech to further your own particular fears of islam- so be it, but to me- that is a cheap misuse of what our freedoms are- which your relatives and mine fought and died to protect.

the most obvious answer to that is freedom with responsibility-

of course we have freedom and rights to express ourselves-
the framers of the same rights also asked the question, "does that freedom extend to yelling fire in a crowded theatre?"

they decided for all of us that there are reasonable limits to such expressions.

in other words- if youre freedom is a deliberate provocation against what another holds sacred-or inflammatory- one must- if one has a conscience, balance the necessity of expressing the benefits of that freedom against the potential damage it may cause.

it wasnt a rallying cry to freedom that motivated the dissemination of those cartoons- but a malice towards what muslims hold dear.

it wasnt for something- it was against the 'other'.

would you support the 'freedom' of someone to paint a swastika on a synagogue?

of course you wouldn't - bcause at the source of this "free" expression is the intent to malign or hate-

it is the same with the cartoon-
the intent was to hate and draw a reaction from muslims in the world.

it was not a benign exhortation to freedom, as a swastika on a synogogue is not a benign act to celebrate freedom- but a hateful crime- as it should be.

so, perhaps instead of putting more fire on the flames (with silly accusations of being 'anti-freedom') have the results of those reprints had any benefit to anyone?

one cannot argue that they were furthering the cause of freedom of expression, because they had already been expressed.

and the reaction (negative) was noted.

so yes, it was a deliberate attempt to provoke more negative reactions- and that is in essence provocative behavior.

and really had no socially redeeming value for anyone- except to confrim to people in other lands that what they held sacred was a joke to be disrespected by the media.

just as the freedom to commit hate crimes like vandalizing a synagogue with inflammatory and threatening images is limited-this would logically extend to hateful expressions of any other peoples.

Victoria,

I agree with Miranda. Calling Americans provokers for using their first amendment rights shows where you assign allegiance.

What an anti-freedom bigotted statement, but (at least) you are transparent..

"you'll notice the united states was the biggest provoker - reprinting the cartoons in 27 different newspapers!"

Yes, Victoria, as Americans we love freedom of speech. I love the freedom of living in America. My ancestors date back to the Mayflower and many of our generations have shed blood to ensure that freedom. If you call us "provokers", perhaps you should consider living in a country more aligned to your societal goals.

you'll notice the united states was the biggest provoker - reprinting the cartoons in 27 different newspapers!

before you break your arm patting yourself on the back and congratulating you on your own cleverness-

it just didnt work.

countries from all over the world reprinted those cartoons with the same petty and not only did muslims not self -destruct, the whole world got rather bored with the sheer petty smallness of it-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_that_reprinted_Jyllands-Posten%27s_Muhammad_cartoons

from september to february newspapers reprinted it-

5 times your suggestion

small minds think alike

well, predictable here come the islamophobes-

and people wonder why muslims dont respond!

Don't miss the articles on the front page her at the WPost;

under the heading "More non believers speaking out".

Very encouraging reading.Keep it up non believers.

Just keep on making sense.

This conundrum CAN be resolved... quickly... easily... economically... once and for all.

My simple solution requres only that for one whole month, every newspaper in the free world devote its front page to cartoons ridiculing Allah (peace on him) and Mohammed (peace on him, too). By the end of that time, all of Islam will have self-destructed in a paroxysm of snits, hissy-fits and terminal apoplexy. WARNING: This will not be pretty... but the world will be a much better place for it.

My only regret in this is that I cannot think of a similarly uncomplicated, cost-effective and efficient stratagem to dismantle Christianity... but, oh well... one thing at a time. One only does what one can.

PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS VID CONTAINS GRAPHIC SCENES OF EXTREME VIOLENCE WHERE AN APOSTATE MAN WAS PUT IN A HOLE AND HAD HIS HEAD STONED TO DEATH IN FRONT OF HUNDREDS OF SPECTATORS IN IRAN IN 1994.

Many hadith, including Sahih Bukhari give proof that Stoning was ordered and practiced by Muhammed.

And it is still practiced by Muslims under Shari'a.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybZ1YLYfYVI

ISLAMIC STONING OF APOSTATE IN IRAN

Victoria wrote:
the third time he tried to give her a way out-
but SHE INSISTED AS SHE WAS CONCERNED FOR HER OWN FATE AND JUDGEMENT IN THE AFTERLIFE

IT WAS THE WOMAN WHO KEPT COMING BACK BECUASE SHE WASNT CONCERNED WITH THIS LIFE BUT THE AFTERLIFE

So stoning is a valid punishment in islam. If stoning is barbaric why did Mohammad carry it out ?

Go on, blame it on the mother. Getting stoned to death gave this mother her redemption !!!

mohammad: "Don't blame me guys...She made me do it !!!!"

SOPHIA- actaully ive answered ross over and over and over and over and over again-

ive even responded to this particular hadeeth which is a flase version of the real one-
but i DO have a life, and repeatedly answering the same questions when theyve already been answered in full and at length gets really really tiring- especially when people make THE SAEM ACCUSATONS non- stop.

your asessment of that particular hadeeth is incorrect in many ways- i dont have time to look up every single hadeeth- or even the responses IVE ALREADY GIVEN ON THE SAME QUESTION

fornication and adultery are also forbidden in christianity and judaism

this woman came to the Prophet 3 TIMES- DEMANDING THAT HE IMPOSE PUNISHMENT ON HER

the first time he told her to go and have her baby
he tried to give her a way out

the second time he tried to give her a way out

the third time he tried to give her a way out-
but SHE INSISTED AS SHE WAS CONCERNED FOR HER OWN FATE AND JUDGEMENT IN THE AFTERLIFE

IT WAS THE WOMAN WHO KEPT COMING BACK BECUASE SHE WASNT CONCERNED WITH THIS LIFE BUT THE AFTERLIFE

SO, THAT IS THAT

PLEASE DONT SPEAK FOR ANY ONE ELSE HERE ON WHAT THEY CSAN OR CANNOT ANSWER

WEVE ALL ANSWERED ROSS SO MANY TIMES WITH NO RESPONSE OR UNDERSTANDING ON HIS PART

Here's the modern day version of the same punishment ordered by allah :

*****WARNING********
Please be advised that the images in this video are NOT EASY TO WATCH. They are NOT suitable for children or people with heart conditions. As unfortunate as it is, this brutal and inhumane action is part of the reality in Iran under the rule of the mullahs and we are presenting it here to further expose the atrocities committed by them.

http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/video.html

Sophia wrote:
So she wasn't exactly innocent, and the father of the child was obviously not willing to marry her. As to profuse repentance, judges do not let criminals off the hook on those grounds.

Do you believe that death via stoning is a fair punishment for this so called crime ? Where is the so called islamic f o r g i v e n e s s that Pamela and the other muslims on this panel keep harping on about ?

Sophia wrote:
The society in his day had no provision for single mothers, and men were not prepared to take care of children born of their wife's sexual adventure with another man.

So let's get rid of them eh !!!

Sophia wrote:
Prophet Mohammad was merely carrying out the predetermined punishment in an Islamic society that had accepted him as prophet.

He was carrying out Allah sharia based punishment. This punishment is still in practice in islamic countries that implement the sharia law. If Pamela and the rest believe it is unfair to stone woman these days then why do they find it acceptable for the prophet to carry out that same punishment ? after all these are allah's laws and are not limited by time or bound by society.

Sophia wrote:
Ms Pamela Taylor, Jihadist, Victoria nor any other Muslim for that matter, could not give you an answer as to why Prophet Mohammad acted in accordance with the Islamic law he had instituted in the name of Allah and which his followers had accepted

Then they must start questioning these laws, the prophethood of Mohammed and their faith in islam itself.

Sophia wrote:
Prophet Mohammad did not have the power to forgive anyone's sins.

If the prophet could carry out Allah punishment then why could'nt he carry out Allah's forgiveness (if there was such a thing called Allah's forgiveness) ?

Sophia wrote:
It would make more sense for you to direct your questions to Prophet Mohammad himself as to why he did not allow himself that luxury.

I did and Mohammed told me he was a prophet of Satan carrying out satanic orders. Will muslims accept this answer ? if not why ?

Sophia wrote:
Better still, you should finally quit asking the same question, like a broken record, to the Muslim women on this forum because they have no answer to why Prophet Mohammad did what he did and did not choose to do what you think he should have done.

My question was directed at all muslims on this panel. The fact that I have'nt got a single response speaks volumes of their understanding of their faith and as long has Pamela and her entourage keep bombarding us about the virtues found in this cult my broken record will keep playing !!!

Sophia,

Mohammed, fortune teller and "prophiteer" based his Islamic law on his visions/hallucinations of a "pwtfft" called Gabriel. And this gives the right to act as a judge? What a sham religion!!!

And is not commenting on a blog during Ramadan some kind of violation of Islamic protocol?? How goes the post-sundown feasting? Give any money to a poor Christian or Jew today?

Weird! It seems like those who apologize for Islam are able to find peaceful parts of its scripture, while those who attack it seem to be able to find it ridden with violent moral imperatives. Strange!

There can be only ONE explanation for this...
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28484

Weird! It seems like those who apologize for Islam people seem to find peaceful parts of its scripture, while those who attack it seem to be able to find it ridden with violent moral imperatives. Strange!

There can be only ONE explanation for this...
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28484

To Ross,

Fornication and adultery are considered crimes according to Islamic law. The woman you mention was fully aware of it. The woman's sexual adventure was carried out in a society which had rigid rules about the interaction between the members of the opposite sex. So she wasn't exactly innocent, and the father of the child was obviously not willing to marry her. As to profuse repentance, judges do not let criminals off the hook on those grounds. The society in his day had no provision for single mothers, and men were not prepared to take care of children born of their wife's sexual adventure with another man. Prophet Mohammad was merely carrying out the predetermined punishment in an Islamic society that had accepted him as prophet.

Ms Pamela Taylor, Jihadist, Victoria nor any other Muslim for that matter, could not give you an answer as to why Prophet Mohammad acted in accordance with the Islamic law he had instituted in the name of Allah and which his followers had accepted. Prophet Mohammad did not have the power to forgive anyone's sins. It would make more sense for you to direct your questions to Prophet Mohammad himself as to why he did not allow himself that luxury. Better still, you should finally quit asking the same question, like a broken record, to the Muslim women on this forum because they have no answer to why Prophet Mohammad did what he did and did not choose to do what you think he should have done.

Ahmed,

Hmmm, is it not the time of Ramadan?? And are you not supposed to be reading the koran and doing acts of charity and giving away your millions of oil profits to the poor. Or maybe you are not the good Muslim you pretend to be?

Halozcel

see also who cheered and danced whilst twin towers were being bombed.

http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2007/02/09/911-what-did-the-israelis-know/

extract from above:
"Ketcham, author of a previous piece detailing the “Israeli art student” phenomenon, offers up intriguing new insights and information from inside sources about the story that won’t die — in spite of repeated attempts by the Lobby to quash it. Amy Goodman interviews Ketcham, Alexander Cockburn, and Forward reporter Marc Perelman (one of the first to break this story in 2002).
Easily the most interesting aspect of Ketcham’s story is his description of the five Israelis, employees of a Weehawken, New Jersey, moving company, who were observed, on the morning of 9/11, cheering and laughing in the parking lot of Liberty State Park, overlooking the Hudson — and with a clear view of the burning twin towers. A radio alert went out to police officers, and the white 2000 Chevie van they were in was spotted shortly afterwards, and apprehended. As Ketcham relates: They had not been told the reasons for their arrest. Yet, according to DeCarlo’s report, “this officer was told without question by the driver [Sivan Kurzberg],"

Below are some Koranic merciful verses:

47:4- “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), strike off their heads; at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.”

9:123: “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.”

2:191- “Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out.”

5: 45-- “We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear. Toth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.”

2:193- “Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah”

9:29- "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, (Christian and Jews) who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute (Zizziya tax) by hand, being inferior.”

8:17—It is not ye who Slew them; it is God; when thou threwest a handful of dust, it was not Thy act, but God’s…..” (Allah is a real merciful indeed!)

5:33-“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution (by beheading), or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;”

8:12- “I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.”

September 11th, has broken my heart. Never will I forget. I will forgive but my heart will always be with the victims and there families. For any Muslim who celebrated such a horrific and evil event, I say this to you... 1 John 2:9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.

i think to know you faith that you should realy examine it all the way through

Victoria wrote:
(quoting Renowned Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi )
"I categorically go against a committed Muslim's embarking on such attacks. Islam NEVER ALLOWS a Muslim to kill the innocent and
the helpless."

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An unwed m o t h e r was stoned to death after she delivered the baby even though she repented profusely.

Narrated Imran ibn Husayn: Book 38, Number 4426:

A woman belonging to the tribe of Juhaynah (according to the version of Aban) came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that she had committed fornication and that she was pregnant. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) called her guardian. Then the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to him: Be good to her, and when she bears a child, bring her (to me). When she gave birth to the child, he brought her (to him). The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) gave orders regarding her, and her clothes were tied to her. He then commanded regarding her and she was s t o n e d to d e a t h.

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Dear Pamela, I thought this essay a timely discourse on leadership.

Talking to Petrarch: The World is an Envious Place

"Will no hiding-place ever protect us from jealousy, will no length of time extinguish envy?"
Upon Man’s Own Ignorance, Petrarch

A letter to my good friend, Francesco Petrarch,

My friend, I was 45 years old when I noted the insidious wave of inadequacy that began to overwhelm the world. Today, on this sunny autumn day I ponder the subject once again and reach for an old frayed text that you and many other like minded men and women contributed.

The simple bounty of this sphere of earth since the 20th and 21st century has had no meaning for many; or they simply refuse the life of generosity that God and mankind has provided. What do we; mothers and fathers, grandparents and children offer to one another; what legacy to our children’s children, do we base our ideals upon? Naturally, I was puzzled and sought understanding:

“From my grandfather Verus I learned good morals and the government of my temper. From the reputation and remembrance of my father, modesty and a manly character. From my mother, piety and beneficence, and abstinence, not only from evil deeds, but even from evil thoughts; and further, simplicity in my way of living, far removed from the habits of the rich. From my great-grandfather…to have had good teachers…and to know that on such things a man should spend liberally”. Meditation, Marcus Aurelius

As in your time, men and women of today want more, but they will not look to the engines of the future to attain more. They avoid the ideal and often strenuous road of wisdom for the hypocritical road of stealth. I sense man will scheme to better himself or herself, rather than work for it openly and honestly. There is a hollow cavern of difference between the two. Once you wrote, “The state, to which I owe so much, gives me a discharge from my obligations; envy, to which I owe nothing, disturbs me…Much 1 have had to experienced before; this kind of evil I have never yet experienced”.

Only now do I comprehend your words. Have we all been led astray by some leaders, who call themselves friends, when in actuality, they are simply masking their avarice? By such deceit, the social contract between man and leadership has been put to the flame of hypocrisy, and democracy withers in illness. I am often amazed how bright those bonfires burn while people look upon in puzzlement and leaders rasp their hands in smoky amusement.

Let us play catch up, my dear Francesco. During the dawn of the twentieth century, the age of industry, where men and women toiled daily to put the simple things of life upon their plate; warm bread, clean clothes, a house, a car, safe roads, electricity, a friendly profitable market place, a school, vital church, synagogue, mosque, or temple, populated by good neighbors and friends; all these noble goals began to wither, and its people cast aside like a yard untended.. I remember when the age of industry developed leaders that blended and monitored activity, and when threatened, all came together as a team, yet today, greed is viewed as motivation, and envy is its mother. Not today my friend.

"[The CEO] made over $10 million last year, I made $34,000," is the way one of those average workers put it. "That tells me how he values himself and how he values me. If we all bust our butts like he's asking, next year I may make as much as $34,900. And he'll make $20 million. How can we be on the same team when we're not even in the same league?" Barry Maher

I remember the 1950s, when lesser nations demanded equity with greater nations and thus India parted ways with Great Britain, and Egypt warred with Israel. who simply re-introduced Yahweh to Allah and the gods were happy. I recall how the minority of the world began their first toddling step toward equity. I remember when greater nations put puppet kings into lesser nations, and paid the price for their foolishness. They still do, so one can ask, do they fear change so much?

In the 1980s, I am reminded of the glitz of new found wealth, toting re-birthed ideologies that were seeded with polite pretensions of re-creating a register of the rich and powerful against a dying New York social register. Civility competed with personal liberty, and rugged individualism competed with social appropriateness. Freedoms were gifts handed out by the masters at the top of the game, because the people at the bottom of the game were rioting in the streets. In the 1960s, the road to equity was perceived by those who value the ideal. In return, the advent of the “me” generation took root. In the 90s came the Web and the exchange of information, and I wonder, has it soothed a trouble world when few look for consensus, and more view it as minor stage of notoriety. I imagine the Borgias would delight in the web.

Is greed truly a motivation? Many years ago, the ME generation, I predicted, would lead to war between neighbor and community and they have fulfilled all my expectations. Today social communities exist no more. They have been torn asunder and dis- mantled under a dark cloak of ideology, an ideology of envy of Me that refutes Us. Ah, Francesco, you know where I am leading.

The search for ideals and wisdom is being crushed by the acquisition of power and wealth. What sparks this dedication to empowerment over others? As multinationals wander from one country or another, looking for the poor to fill their sweat shops and man their counters; at the top, be it England, the United States, Russia, Saudia Arabia, Iran, Egypt, or China, men and women of 21st century wealth argue the wages of humanity and minimize it into terms of coin, hours, and productivity. They have no vision beyond the annual report. Like the British two hundred years ago, who drove countries into poverty and discord, fed them opiates of the body and the mind, and endeavored to remove their native names, their families, and their culture from the national conscience, the quest was to deliver to the stockholders and owners an overwhelming bank account in order that those who profited could provide great shows of wealth and state protection. Why, and for what reason do people build billion dollar homes, and wallow in orgies that are called are public relations events? What is the synopsis of wealth, but a chain of events that endeavors to cancel out our ideals, and to impoverish our souls?

“If we are to achieve a richer culture, rich in contrasting values, we must recognize the whole gamut of human potentialities, and so weave a less arbitrary social fabric, one in which each diverse human gift will find a fitting place”. Margaret Meade

Why? Because men of inordinate deviation who mine the culture as well as the earth know they do evil, and think that their wealth will prevent the gnawing of their conscience and their fear of reprisal. Indeed, in the beginning of the 21st century, these men and women fear the people, thus they send warriors to conquer the people – similar in your time to the Sforzas. They shout at each other, pantomiming the great apes, demanding from their own to continue sharpening their knives in order to strop tiny bits of flesh from each human soul they come into contact. Thus the arrogance of the bully winnows down to all of us. Was it the same for you?

When I write or I speak, when I introduce an ideal, I am accosted and stoned with one sentence…“What about me?” or “What about mine?”. This question has torn families apart, friends apart, and even nations apart. Therefore, the creed stands out like a shrine to the God of Self, and thus the answers: Motivation is greed. Ambition is success. Be it politician, minister, teacher, or manager, the ideals of mankind, what once we termed faith or the spirit of man, are minimized under a thick veneer of envy.
“I am at war neither with friends nor with enemies but with envy. It is not a new enemy, though its manner of fighting is new. With bow and quiver it comes to the battle-field; it attacks with arrows and strikes from afar. There is one advantage: it is blind. You can easily evade it if you see it in time. It shoots without aim and often wounds its own ranks”. Upon Man’s Own Ignorance, Petrarch,
Thus America is wounded, England too, Iraq, Iran and Israel, but that is just the beginning of the list, for the people in the world fight each other upon all continents led by a gleeful industry of self seekers and maintainers. We are a people divided and hostile to one another, a pottage of bitter ideologies easily manipulated by those who seek personal gain. We have abandoned the ideal for the grubby stall in the market place, for the indifferent customer service in India, for the incense of sacrifice within our churches; we avoid the ideals of humanity, and cater to the ignorance of wealth. We struggle to forget that we are all inadequate in the hope that we find superiority, the coins thrown upon the ice, and a moment of glitz. We drug our children, and we war upon families, and we set up acolytes from a priesthood of marketing personnel to direct our souls.
Why do people wish for no ideals? And more to the point, why do men and women of wealth wish to silence those prayers to the ideal? There is a war against intelligence, a friend described to me one day. Who is the enemy, I inquired? Money, was the response. The thought had tremendous merit. You can’t make respect, you must earn it. However, in the 21st century, men disdain respect for they don’t need it – they think they can buy it, or spin it. So I write, articulate, and I am spurned by those who think they know better.

“They cannot even envy me learning and eloquence! Learning, they declare, I have absolutely none. Eloquence, if I have any, they despise according to the modern philosophic fashion. They reject it as unworthy of a man of letters. Thus only "infantile inability to speak" and perplexed stammering, "wisdom" trying hard to keep one eye open and "yawning drowsily," as Cicero calls it, is held in good repute nowadays. They do not call to mind "Plato, the most eloquent of all men," and--let me omit the others--"Aristotle sweet and mild," but whom they made trite”. Upon Man’s Own Ignorance, Petrarch,

Brilliant words, dear Francesco. I live simply, with no pretensions to symbols of wealth, or do I beheld wealth, as I live to benefit those that live with me or around me. I scour my home upon my knees then sweep up the remnants of other people’s litter from the altar of God – it is good to remind one of humble beginnings, and unassuming actions. My home I have made all over the world, and it changes neither in its plainness nor in its effort to heal. I offer dinner to a grieved one, a soft word to those who suffer in times of stress; I struggle to be a friend in a friendless world. I have courage, and am often mocked for my principals. I offer honesty, and am rebuffed by lies. I am considered wise because of my late years, and I do not opinion unless I am asked. Then what do people envy? I struggle and read, and find answers within the words of those that went before me, and thus I find myself here, reading you, my dear friend Petrarch, on a sunny, autumn morning.
Not even virtue or humility can they envy me, though it is beyond doubt the best and most enviable of all things. To those who demand power it seems worthless--I believe because virtue is not inflated and puffed up with arrogance., and humility has no stage. I should wish to possess both, and, indeed, they grant it to me unanimously and willingly. Small things they have denied me, and this very greatest possession they lavish upon me as a small gift. They call me a good woman, even the best of women, but they claim that I am altogether illiterate, that I am a plain uneducated fellow. I remember they did the same to you, did they not Francesco?

Indeed, I can understand those words because I have lived it. In all my papers, in all my words, I see one bright gleam, the soul of myself. I write that it is good to benefit self as long as what I am doing benefits society as well, and the two are mutual not exclusive of each other. It is the creed of my roots, the call of the prairie that guides my heart and mind. It is a simple rule, a rule established from Hammurabi to Abraham, from Plato to Marcus Aurelius, from Jesus to Muhammad, from Augustine to Petrarch, from More to Montaigne, and from Bashevis to Soyinka. What do people envy? They envy the peace of mind, the humbling of the spirit, the bathing within ideals, the principal of courage, the ability to be distinct and at one without pretensions, the valor of the human spirit, the vision of the future. As you, my dear Francesco, penned centuries ago:

“I desired to be both good and learned”

Mankind desires to be both good and learned. It is the ideal of all faith. It is what is envied by those who repudiate it. Wealth and power would hide goodness and wisdom like they hide fine art and jewels, they know it is valuable, but they don’t understand the spirit of the poets and learned ideals. Those that envy want their names to be remembered down the centuries. It is an empty dream, sadly, as you once wrote, one that they will never capture.

Dear Pamela,

We all need to reexamine our faith, constantly, and with a will. Fighting to become more accepting of God's will, and more accepting of God's other children. Am I wrong in thinking of this as the healthy meaning of the term Jihad?

Dear Pamela:

Thank you for your thoughts.

Victoria again failed to note the militaristic, anti-female passages of the koran. Why is that? These are the passages that must be deleted if the world is to survive Islamic terror.

Then again, the militaristic Japanese had to be transformed the hard way.

*Islam,the religion of tolerance*
Could you please to write any islamic country where *tolerance* exists ?

*That woman shouldnt have been killed anyway*
Who had murdered Woman Poet Asma Marwan ?

*Islam NEVER ALLOWS a Muslim to kill the innocent and the helpless*
Who had exterminated the Qurayza Tribe ?
What is going on in Iraq,Hamasistan,Pakistan,Algeria,Darfur ?
Who had murdered the grandchild of Founder/Prophet ?

Thanks for having the courage to speak up against Islamic extremism.

To those who are not Muslim, of course, it makes little difference what "the Prophet" said about this and that, as they do not regard Mohammed as a prophet.

People with common sense and decency do not need any sort of "prophet" to tell them that the violence and murderous viciousness of these extremists is completely wrong and evil. We are not dealing with sensible individuals here but people who appear to have NO sense of human decency. They are themselves either utterly damaged or innately evil.

Please see this site for more about Islamic extremism:

The Truth About Islam
http://islamwatchers.blogspot.com

I wonder if we will be able to stop this growing menace to civilization?

Crocodile Tears.
Who were the those who cheered and danced till morning after 911...

I HAVE A FEAR THAT BECAUSE MS. TAYLOR IS A MUSLIM, MANY WILL FLOOD THIS BLOG TO EXPRESS THEIR GRIEF AND ANGERS.

BEFORE THAT HAPPENS, HERE ARE HOW MUSLIMS IDENTIFIED THEIR UNEQUIVOCAL CONDEMNATION OF THE TERRORIST ACTS PERPERTRATED AGAINST AMERICANS ON 911

CAIR-.S. MUSLIMS CONDEMN TERRORIST ATTACKS

- 9/11/2001) -
Muslims in [CITY] today condemned the apparent terrorist attacks in New York and Washington
and offered condolences to the families of those who were killed or injured.
In a statement, local Muslim representatives said:
"WE CONDEMN IN THE STRONGEST TERMS POSSIBLE what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians.
We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators.
No cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.

"All members of the Muslim community are asked to offer whatever help they can to the victims and their families.
Muslim medical professionals should go to the scenes of the attacks to offer aid and comfort to the victims.
Muslim relief agencies should contact their counterparts to offer support in the recovery efforts.
Individual Muslims should donate blood by contacting the local office of the Red Cross.
They should also send donations to those relief agencies that are on the scene of the attacks.
"We further call on media professionals to exercise restraint and not draw premature conclusions as to who was responsible for the apparent attacks."
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AND ICNA (ISLAMIC CIRCLE OF NORTH AMERICA)

The Islamic Circle of North America declares Friday, September 14, 2001, a day of mourning and prayers.

The Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA) is extremely horrified and saddened by the tragedy in New York and Washington D.C.
Our hearts and prayers are with the families of the victims of this horrible and despicable crime.
We condemn this heinous act and call upon our political leaders and the media to act responsibly,
and not generalize when speculating about the perpetrators.
Islam does not permit such unjust actions.
Muslims are not terrorists and we condemn any terrorist attack against all people.

There were several hundred Muslims working in the World Trade Center.
And, a large number of Muslims used to offer Friday prayer in the World Trade Center.
There are many Muslims, who are still among the missing.

We appreciate and thank President Bush for acknowledging that American Muslims and Arab American are also saddened by this terrorist attack
and by making it clear that any hate crime against Muslims will not be tolerated.

Our hearts are with those who have lost loved ones in this terrible tragedy and our prayers are with the departed souls.

The Islamic Circle of North America declares Friday, September 12, 2001, a day of mourning and prayers.
All the Muslims are requested to make special prayers for the dead and the injured and also for the suffering families.
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DOHA, Qatar, Sept 13 (IslamOnline & News Agencies) - Renowned Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi denounced the attacks against civilians in the U.S. Tuesday and encouraged Muslims to donate blood to the victims of the attack.

In response to the bloody attack against civilians in the U.S., Sheikh Yusuf issued a statement Wednesday saying that:

"Our hearts bleed for the attacks that has targeted the World Trade Center [WTC], as well as other institutions in the United States despite our strong oppositions to the American biased policy towards Israel on the military, political and economic fronts.

"Islam, the religion of tolerance, holds the human soul in high esteem, and considers the attack against innocent human beings a grave sin, this is backed by the Qur'anic verse which reads:

Who so ever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and who so ever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind," (Al-Ma'dah:32).

"The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is reported to have said, 'A believer remains within the scope of his religion as long as he doesn't kill another person illegally'," the prominent scholar said.

He added that haphazard killing where the rough is taken with the smooth and where innocents are killed along with wrongdoers is totally forbidden in Islam. No one, as far as Islam is concerned, is held responsible for another's actions. Upon seeing a woman killed in the battlefield, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, denied the act and said: "That woman shouldn't have been killed anyway!".

Even in times of war, Muslims are not allowed to kill anybody save the one who is indulged in face-to-face confrontation with them. They are not allowed to kill women, old persons, children, or even a monk in his religious seclusion.

Qaradawi then asserted that is why killing hundreds of helpless civilians who have nothing to do with the decision-making process and are striving hard to earn their daily bread, such as the victims of the latest explosions in America, is a heinous crime in Islam. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is reported to have stated that a woman was qualified to enter Hell because of the cat she locked up to death.

"If such is the ruling applied in protecting animals, no doubt, aggression against human beings, a fortiori, deserves greater protection, for human beings are honored by Allah Almighty and are His vicegerents on earth," he added.
"I categorically go against a committed Muslim's embarking on such attacks. Islam NEVER ALLOWS a Muslim to kill the innocent and the helpless.

"If such attacks were carried out by a Muslim - as some biased groups claim - then we, in the name of our religion, deny the act and incriminate the perpetrator. We do confirm that the aggressor deserves the deterrent punishment irrespective of his religion, race or gender," he added.

"What we warn against, even if becomes a reality, is to hold a whole nation accountable for a crime carried out by a limited number of people or to characterize a certain religion as a faith giving support to violence and terrorism," Qaradawi said.

Qaradawi clarified that when the well-known Oklahoma incident was carried out by a Christian American, who was driven by a personal interests, Christianity, America or even the Christian world, were not accused of the attack because a Christian masterminded it.
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