Issues not Identity; Numbers not Validity

vtwkhsuyx chqagpnd tpbfrd kgqxfwd vxojrlf wvclq crfh

vtwkhsuyx chqagpnd tpbfrd kgqxfwd vxojrlf wvclq crfh

It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

jessamine- well and reasonably observed

OK, Frank, you say this:

"and yes im indian - a feather indian not a dot indian. that means new mexico not new dehli."

Which tribe taught you this general lack of manners you've shown?

Or should have?

I wouldn't want to say Dineh, cause, that would be ...particularly unseemly of you, I gather.

Kind of wondering if all this stuff you sout is really about what you say it's about.

Well, not wondering.

Asking.

This isn't what this is, is it?

As an Australian, who may have a greater degree of objectivity on this subject than some others who have contributed here, I have a few comments to add.

In discussing these issues (ie Islam) Americans do not seem to possess any context for their opinions.

Firstly, although I understand the extreme reaction to 911, it seems that the vast majority of the American population has swallowed the idea that all Muslims are terrorists and that all terrorists are Muslim. The definition of terrorism is to use violence for political gain. What government has not done this? Few governments have done this more than the various American administrations over the past 50 years, both Rebublican and Democrat. American's, and people from all other Western nations, including my own, seem to care little about the mass death and disorder they cause within 3rd world nations but if anything happens to them all must pay. Also, previous to 911, all races were represented within the concept of 'terrorist'. If I had heard the word 'terrorist' prior to Sept 11th 2001 I would have thought of the Irish Republican Army.

I was shocked to see a recent poll which stated that approx 30% of American's couldn't even rememeber in what year 911 happened! I'm sure many of these people have quite passionate opinions on Iraq, even through they may not be able to locate it on a map.

Also, Western non-Muslims are very quick to point out the negative aspects of Islam, and the many commands to commit violent acts. If they are Christians they should think more deeply before they speak. The Bible contains numerous references to attacking others who do not possess the same faith, mostly within the Old Testament e.g. 'Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live' and the charming section where God tells his followers to attack a neighbouring tribe and kill everyone, smashing children against the rocks and taking girls young enough to now have 'known a man' as trophies. Oh what a loving God...who commands the killing of people from other religions and the mass rape of young girls. This is Jehovah, the Lord God from the Bible, not Allah.

I am ashamed at this time in history to be a part of Western 'civilisation', to be associated with a population which is composed of such an amazing number of ignorant, bigoted, racists. Let he is without sin throw the first stone.

Soja,

I was not anonymous who posted the "Mopilah Rebellion". I've heard of it but I dont know much, I read the link you sent me.

The British were not in india to save the hindus or spread christianity but to rule and grow their empire. The switch from moslem rule to the british did cause the muslims to loose the upper hand. Most of india + pakistan + bangladesh was under muslim rule when the british arrived, muslims constitued about 40 percent of the population, if india was indeed peaceful during the muslim rule it does not explain the muslim growth in the population. When this growth is extrapolated for another 200 years had the british not ruled india, we can project a muslim population of around 70%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_India

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_India

Ross:

I take it that the anonymous who posted "Mopilah Rebellion" on 10 July 2007 at 6:08 AM was you, hence this response is addressed to you.

My profuse apologies for not being aware of the history of the Muslim Rebellion in Kerala in 1921. My bad! India was a full-fledged British colony since 1858, so the quelling of the rebellion was in their role as rulers of the country, not coming to the aid of Hindus in India/Kerala as an outsider.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mappila_Rebellion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_raj

By the way I wish to note that my comment was directed at the intentional stance of British colonisation, which you seemed to imply (or at least that is the way I interpreted it) was to save the Hindus from Muslims. I had mentioned some time ago on another thread that Indian history does bear witness to Muslim violence in the past. But it is unfair and unproductive not to mention the good Muslim rule brought to India, and to keep eyes focussed only on the bad. India gained its independence in 1947 after two hundred years of British, not Muslim, rule. So the discussion about Muslim rule goes back prior to that. Even the Hindu-Muslim violence one reads about today should be viewed in the context of the whole Muslim population of 138 million. Hindu fundamentalists should take responsibility for their own role in the tragedy. An eye for an eye attitude doesn't work to bring about peace. It never has.

British rule likewise was after all not all good nor all bad and yet Britian and free India parted as friends, not bitter enemies; and we remain friends. Why should innocent Muslims of today have to bear responsibility for wrongs done by some Muslims, rulers or otherwise, in the past?

Thanks once again for reminding me of the Mappila Rebellion in Kerala.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

At least that's what his payhecks say...

"Maybe you should contact Frank Collins. He's a bigoted, ignorant, irrational dilettante too...BUT he's got a knack for it."

And a Doctorate!

Tim, Tim, Tim...

First of all, citing one's work lends credibilty.

Secondly, there isn't a thing in the non-cut-n-copy part of your post that hasn't already been discussed in these threads. Your generalizing is a clear display of ignorance.

I take it you are not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim since that would make you a blasphemer too.

Why not put a little more effort toward actually learning something, instead of seeking out bigoted and ignorant confrontations.

Maybe you should contact Frank Collins. He's a bigoted, ignorant, irrational dilettante too...BUT he's got a knack for it.

TEHRAN, Iran —

In a rare confirmation, Iran on Tuesday said a man convicted of adultery was stoned to death last week in a village in the northern part of the country, Iran's judiciary spokesman said.

Jafar Kiani was stoned to death in Aghchekand village, 124 miles west of the capital, Tehran, on Thursday, Ali Reza Jamshidi told reporters. It was the first time in years that Iran has confirmed such an execution.

"This verdict was carried out Thursday," Jamshidi told reporters.

Death sentences are carried out in Iran after they are upheld by the Supreme Court. Under Iran's Islamic law, adultery is punishable by stoning...

Jamshidi didn't elaborate on how the stoning was carried out, but under Islamic rulings, a male convict is usually buried up to his waist while a female criminal is buried up to her neck with her hands also buried.

Those carrying out the verdict start throwing stones and rocks at the convict until he or she dies...

Capital offenses in Iran include murder, rape, armed robbery, apostasy, blasphemy, serious drug trafficking, adultery or prostitution, treason and espionage.

End of quote.

All the pagans, all the Jews, and all the Christians who post on this web site are blasphemers in one way or another and so is Ms. Pam. In Iran or under Islamic law you would be stoned to death. Tell me any place in the world where pagans, Christians, Jews are any other group are stoning adulterers and there are laws, like Sharia, that would call for the stoning of blasphemy or apostasy. This only happens in the backward Islamic nations. The literal interpretation of Islam ends with Sharia law and with terror. That is something Pam is advocating and she does not even know it.

hpka bgvzirjew cxid bvuhleynt edkw nbav jyzi

Tufail,

'Allah's Reward for all good people-Not exclusively for Muslims'.
No,completely wrong.It doesnt fit to Islam and Quran.

According to Quran,you should say 'La ilaha illallah',you should worship 150 times in arabic and you should do good deeds,otherwise you cant be 'true believer'.
In islam,there are two kind of men.Muslim and non-muslim(infidel,disbeliever,qafir).If you are not 'sincere muslim',you cant go to the Paradise(Allah Reward) where the teenager girl without breast are waiting you(such as exactly written)

'If only the people of Book had believed(islam) and been righteous(muslim),we should remit their sins from them and admitted them to garden of bliss' 5.65
'who seeks as religion other than islam,it will not be accepted from him,and he will be a loser in the Hereafter' 3.85
'is not there a home in hell for disbeliever?' 29.68

Tufail,
In islam,there is NOT any other 'religion'.Islam is the only Religion,so according to Quran,christianity is not religion and christian is not believer.Christian,Jew,Shintoist,Chinese,Buddist,Hindu etc. are all infidel and disbelievers.
You made a terrible mistake in your article,you say 'the Books(Torah,Psalm,Gospel,Quran)...,No,wrong,death wrong.Torah,Psalm,Gospel are NOT Books,there is only one Book in islam,this is Quran.

Allah hates and curses to non-muslims.
'I(Allah) will cast Fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve(non-muslims)' 8.12
'They do blaspheme who say Allah is christ' 5.72
'They surely disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three(Trinity)' 5.73
These are absolute clear,that means the christian is blasphemer,so how can he/she can benefit from the Allah's Reward ?

2.62 may be considered as one of contradictions in islam and besides,2.62 says 'who believe in Allah(not God).

When I write this article,I hear following news from CNN.
'The Vatican on Tuesday said christian denomination outside the Roman Catholic Church were not full churches of Jesus Christ'.
Has this Vatican adopted 'Koranic doctrine'?

Paul:

There is a misconception that all religions seem to feel that their way is 'the ONLY way'. That appears to be true for a lot of them, but not all. Not only do Pagans acknowledge many paths to the same thing, but are of the mindset that there are SUPPOSED to be. And that one way, even our own, is not somehow more or less 'truthful' than others.

You said 'Are chaplains put in place to make soldiers and marines feel that the enemy is different, that somehow the enemy's religion makes them less valuable to God?'

I sure hope not. I was under the impression that chaplains were supposed to give comfort to soldiers when they needed it in a time of crisis, seeing as how war often leads to questioning one's personal faith. I would hope a Pagan chaplain, when one is implemented, would understand that and act accordingly.

Anonymous,

Touche! Troll Feed withheld.

I realize he is not REALLY a doctor, but that "I get paid like one" comment from a few weeks ago...I just can't let it go! HYSTERICAL!

There is something that is enormously confusing about the issue of military chaplains. The great majority of service members and, thus, chaplains are Christian. It would be difficult to think of a less Christian act than attacking a nation that was not really a threat to one's own nation. Our famously Christian president did just that.

Are chaplains put in place to make soldiers and marines feel that the enemy is different, that somehow the enemy's religion makes them less valuable to God? There have been countless religions over the course of mankind's development. Every one differs from every other, so only one could be completely without error.

Which one is that perfect religion? If it is Christianity, which version? There are Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, and many others. There are various types of Muslims and Jews, also. It is probable that only a very few people have discovered the "right" religion or that no one has.

Many people are absolutely certain that they know the religious truth. Many children are certain that there is a Santa Claus. Many people believed in an earth-centric universe and in Greek gods who were half human and half deity and who had risen from the dead. Being sure does not make one correct.

Danny:
He's not a doctor. According to him, he gets 'paid' like one. Whatever that means.

Goes after folks who don't agree with him that all Muslims are 'islamic' and out to kill people.

Don't feed the troll.

"apparently you islamics forgot to read the above damands of your koran when you post that we are all the same crap, which you do not believe."

Dr. Frank Collins PhD.,

You must be a genius! You teach Abnormal Psychology...by EXAMPLE! I can't believe I misunderstood your crazy rants, diregard for the English language, and general disoriantation while asserting your advanced credentials.

It's all clear to me now.

Keep up the good work...'r something...Doctor.

Tufail,

The conduct of the seven Islamic, koranic brainwashed doctors in the UK and the 24/7 butchery of Shiites by Sunnis and vice versa vitiates all of your commentary about "peaceful" and "charitable" Islam.

Moplah rebellion..

Halozcel

Allah’s Reward for all good people—Not exclusively for Muslims

According to the Koran, facing to any direction or praying in any particular manner does not carry you to Heaven. In other words, rituals without good deeds are useless. According the Koran, what matters is:

“It is not piety that you turn your faces towards the East or the West, but pious are those who believe in God, and the hereafter, the angels, the Books (Torah, Psalm, Gospels, Koran), and the prophets; and those, for the love of God, give of their wealth to kinsmen, the orphans, the indigent, wayfarers, beggars, and for the redemption of slaves; and observe prayers, and pays purification dues, And who honor their pledge when they are committed to a pledge and who have patience in tribulation and adversity, and in time of distress; such are they who are faithful, and such are the venerators.” (Koran 2:177).

According the following verses justice of the Day of Judgment is not based upon “Muslim whims or Christians or Jewish whims,” but is based upon good deeds.

“It is neither dependent on your (Muslim’s) whims nor the whims of the People of the Books (Jews and Christians), but whosever does misdeeds shall be punished for it, and will find no protector or friend apart from God; whoever, whether man or woman, does righteous deeds and is a believer of God will surely enter Paradise. None shall be deprived even an iota of his/her reward.” (Koran 4:123-124).

Moreover, the Koran explicitly condemns those Muslims who pray but do not feed the needy:

“Woe, then, unto those ones whose hearts from their prayer are remote [and] those who wants to be seen and praised, and, withal, deny all assistance to their fellowmen” (Koran 107:4-7]. Same viewpoint is stated in Verse 4:142.

After laying down every mode of conduct for Muslims, the Koran states one of these phrases: “God hears and knows al things,” “for God is well aware of all you do,” and “for God knows well the secrets of your heart.” These phrases are warnings to Muslims that Allah does not shield them from accountability to their actions and they will have retribution for all their misbehavior. In Koranic context, the faith, whether it is Islam, Christianity, Judaism or any faith without good deeds, is of no use on the Day of Judgment. The Koran rhetorically rejects the claim of exclusive salvation by Christians and Jews, and then says that all those who do righteous are rewarded. Contemporary Muslims also claim that the Paradise is only for those who claim to be Muslims. The Koran rejects these claims emphatically in the following verses:

"And they say: 'none shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.' Those are their vain desires. Say: 'Produce your proof if you are truthful.'. No-whoever submits his whole self to God and is a doer of good will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say: ‘The Christians are not right,’ and the Christians say: The Jews are in the wrong;’ yet both read the scriptures…" [Koran 2:111-113].

The above verse is complemented by the following verses to reject the concept of the exclusive love and reward for Muslims or any one particular faith.

"Every soul will receive its reward by measure of its endeavor." (Koran 20:15)

In this verse, the phrase “every soul” receiving reward negates the contemporary Muslim claim of exclusivity for God’s love and reward unless Muslims make parallel assertion that Christians, Jews, and others do not have souls and Muslims are the only ones with souls.

Another verse states:

"And to all are assigned degree according to the deeds which they have done, and in order that God may recompense the deeds, and no injustice be done to them." (Koran 46:19)

The Koran does not put all “people of the book (Jews and Christians)” in one basket. The Koran graciously states that there are righteous people among the people of the books. The phrase, “People of the Book”, in the Koran means Christians and Jews. Allah would not reject their good deeds for being Jew or Christians. The Koran states:

“They are not all alike. Of the people of the scriptures (Christians and Jews), there is a staunch community who recites the revelations of God in the night, falling prostrate (before Him). They believe in God and the Last Day, enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one another in good works. They are righteous. Of the good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; For God knows well those that do right." (Koran 3: 113-115)

Finally, the Koran teaches that all good people of all faiths have nothing to fear from Allah. In the following verse, the good deeds over belief systems are again stressed.

"Those who believe in the Koran and those who follow the Jewish Scriptures, and the Christians and Sabians, and any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Koran 2:62)

According the above verses, any who believe in God and live nobly and morally are nothing to fear from God and will be rewarded proportionate to their good and bad deeds.

Catholic Church adopted the above Koranic doctrine only recently in the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964

"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

All places of worship celebrate God’s name and God protects all of them

God is not worshipped in Mosques alone and it is a Muslim duty to allow and protect all places of worships. “For had it not been God’s repelling some men against others, the monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which God’s name is daily celebrated would have been destroyed. And God will surely help one who helps Him”. (Koran 22:40).

Unfortunately, no Christian Church or Synagogue is safe in contemporary Saudi Arabia, the land, where Prophet preached those words. No religion other than Wohabism of Saudi Arabia can be preached in that land where Prophet preached freedom. I have no reason to doubt that the defenders of freedom of faith, described in the above verse, are America and Americans except the extreme rights among them in our contemporary world even though the civil liberties have eroded recently. America, where people of all faiths as well as people without faith can safely believe and practice, protects and preserves the noble idea of the freedom of faith enshrined in the above verses. I admit such freedom does not exist in many of the contemporary Muslim nations.

Moplah rebellion..

Ross, on 5 July 2007 11:05 AM you wrote, "If the British hadn't intervened, the non-Muslim population of India today would be negligible."

Being an Indian-Australian woman with dual citizenship, I must ask you where you got your knowledge of Indian history from. So the British came to India to save the Hindus from being massacred into complete non-existence by Muslims? Islam came to Kerala (the state I hail from) during Prophet Mohammad's lifetime. There are 24.7% Muslims living in Kerala today. As far as I know the history of Kerala, Muslims have lived in peace with Hindus and Muslims and I do not recall that British troops were called to quell the violence of Muslims.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

" ewven as a pagan you know you have never heard the words christian terrorist or protestant terrorist or catholic terrorist-

anywhere."

How bout the BBC from any time during the Thatcher administration? :)

Not exactly the Hibernian lodge, but, really.

What would you expect out of those guys?

None to nice to Pagans, in my experience, though. :)

islam: a bloody violent religion, full of crazy, fundamentalist, psychotic, deranged followers: the mohammedans!

Jihadist,

In case you missed my previous response to your comments on Sulayman S. Nyang's page,

You apparently are not keeping up with the "singularity commentary". Too much time reinvesting oil/blood profits? It is ironic how Muslim profits from our oil purchases go right back to supporting terror to keep the oil prices high!!!

Anyway:

B16's "new" book is simply the NT rehashed once again. For a better buy, see Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, 1997 (878 pages). The book is "Catholic" approved (imprimatur and Nihil obstat) and more than likely was used by B16 to prep his book (416 pages). Father Brown also reviews the historical Jesus movement in more than two pages.

Another "view from a recent review":

"For this reason, Crossan's new book _God and Empire: Jesus Against Rome, Then and Now_ (2007) represents far more forward-oriented thinking about Christian tradition than does Ratzinger's well-publicized new book. "

Jihadist,

With the "no escape clauses" in your book of death and with the Malaysian Islamic "police" squads reading your e-mails, no one can determine what you say really has any meaning.

So to reiterate:

It is all about the koran and its authors. When you and her other liberal Muslims face the facts about their book of death and demand corrections, then we will make progress in conquering this koranic cancer.

If it were not for the "bred to kill", koranic crazies, we would need significantly fewer military personnel and therefore significantly fewer chaplains of any religion or pagan cult would be needed.

Jihadist, you should emphasize the eradication of these "bred to kill" crazies in your liberal Islamic commentaries. Until you do, we unbelievers will continue for our own safety to adhere to the following principle:

Gators vs. Muslims-- Gators definitely will kill. With Muslims it depends but with the koran as their operating manual, we cannot trust any of them. The recent conduct of the seven Islamic doctors in Great Britain proves the point

Apparently the Muslims on this blog are afraid of Islamic reprisals since they never give any suggestions for changes to the koran. So let us start the process for them.

Part 1 of the "cleansing".

"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)

"1. Belief in Allah"

No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans. "

McVeigh got the chair. Koresh got incinerated. Neither were good Christians and violated all the teachings of the NT.

Hopefully the koranic crazies in the UK meet the same fate as McVeigh. Unlike McVeigh, these koranic crazies follow the dictates of their "NT", the same dictates being followed 24/7 by analogous koranic crazies around the globe.

Bottom line: The koran has got to be nullified either by reason or by force.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers. "

McVeigh got the chair. Koresh got incinerated. Neither were good Christians and violated all the teachings of the NT.

Hopefully the koranic crazies in the UK meet the same fate as McVeigh. Unlike McVeigh, these koranic crazies follow the dictates of their "NT", the same dictates being followed 24/7 by analogous koranic crazies around the globe.

Bottom line: The koran has got to be nullified either by reason or by force.

Melinda,

Muslims are victims of this cancer called islam, just view this video to see what it does to muslim minds :

*****WARNING********
Please be advised that the images in this video are NOT EASY TO WATCH. They are NOT suitable for children or people with heart conditions. As unfortunate as it is, this brutal and inhumane action is part of the reality in Iran under the rule of the mullahs and we are presenting it here to further expose the atrocities committed by them.

http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/video.html

------------------------------------------------

An unwed m o t h e r was stoned to death after she delivered the baby even though she repented profusely.

Narrated Imran ibn Husayn: Book 38, Number 4426:

A woman belonging to the tribe of Juhaynah (according to the version of Aban) came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that she had committed fornication and that she was pregnant. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) called her guardian. Then the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to him: Be good to her, and when she bears a child, bring her (to me). When she gave birth to the child, he brought her (to him). The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) gave orders regarding her, and her clothes were tied to her. He then commanded regarding her and she was s t o n e d to d e a t h.

melinda- you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar-

now youve been answered respectfully and energies have been extended on your behalf, even though you have atrocious manners.

from what i can see- what possible motive do you offer any to engage you civilly?

only a fool will argue with a fool.

now i personally am american born- and a muslim- not born that way, but consciously chosen.

your right to express your opinion about my opinion extends to these pages-

but if you are so abrasive- the only effect you have had on me personally is this-

i wont bother to look at your links-

how can you possibly think youre doing anything to address what you consider evil- by insulting the adherents of islam?

i only say this because maybe youre not aware of how counterproductive your statements are.

if you continue to be insulting- well- ill just skip over your posts altogether.

i truly wonder what motivates people sometimes.

jihadist:

Muslims MUST find a way to remove this modern CANCER—this fundamentalist DEATH CULT—that has infected their religion. None of us on the outside can do it for them.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19636920/site/newsweek/

Ohhhh...Concerned, hope for you yet, looking at statistics, demographics, sociology and economics too in considering at to whether Pagan Chaplains should be allowed in US military.

And what in the world is a "liberal" Muslim? I am a Muslim. Period. Born and bred too. Brainwashed? You wish. Can't stand it eh, for a Muslim to remain happily a Muslim.

Those doctors, living in a country with "freedom of religion". Makes me blush to think one actually got a PhD from Cambridge. Cambridge is the sort of university that sacked Bertrand Russell for his views. That saw the Keynes gay group, that also saw the commie group of Kim Philby as traitors.

You can't stand gays and commies and Muslims. So, Cambridge is a terrible university for all the heretics and mavericks and deviants and radicals that it gave rise to eh? Did you know in the 19th century, the bright young fellows in Cambridge actually thought it trendy to be into Robespierre and the Qur'an?

Ah so:)

This is a lot of fun, reading Americans asking American Muslims (about 6 to 7 million out of 300 million inhabitants of the United States) to do something about the "cancer" in the Muslim world of 1.3 billion adherents.

Anyway, thanks for the reminder of the "cancer" in Islam. Ironically, Muslims do tend to think western norms, values and mores are cancer too.

And here I was also thinking in reading On Faith threads and some panelists here, that some have views that are cancerous to all Americans, and contrary to the Bill of Rights and US Constitution.

And don't forget the "cancer" caused by Islam and Muslims in Latin America miring it in poverty, bad governance and corruption. Don't forget how China, Cuba and North Korea, in following the Qur'an, is not democratic, and oppressing religious sorts too, including Christians.

It is because of Muslims, Islam and the Qur'an that Thailand is under a military regime; the Phillippines is a mess of bad governance and over-population; that Vietnam is still under a communist regime; that Burma is under a military junta, that Fiji has its fourth coup since 1987.

Everyone knows that the trafficking of women and children and drugs, and the sex trade in Thailand, Burma, Loas and Cambodia, the violence of crime in Brazil, the genocide in Rwanda, the HIV/AIDs in Africa, is due to Muslims and the Qur'an.

I am most flattered that Muslims and Islam are simultaneously, the new white men in being blamed for all the ills and sins of the world; and the new blacks in being vilified too.

I am pleased to know that that Muslims in the wider world, is given more power than China, EU and Russia as threats in the current and long-term to the US economically and politically. EU is, after all, going to be Islamic soon and have Shariah law formulated and implemented by EU bureaucrats in Brussels.

I hope for the non-Muslim world in Africa, Asia and Latin America to fully embrace modernisation and individual liberty too.

All the best.

http://www.milpagan.org/media/statistics.html is the cited source of the # of Pagans in the US military. A Defense Department reference would be the only real source of accurate information.

But let us do the math anyway: 4300 Pagans/6702 military bases (http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2004/01bases.htm) or less than one Pagan per base on average.

There are probably more Pagans working for Wallmart. Maybe they should add a few Pagan chaplins to the "welcomers".

And there are probably a heck of a lot more atheists in the military. Another positive for atheism. No chaplins required!!

And with so few Pagans in the military why are we discussing this issue?????

It is all about the koran and its authors. When Pamela and her other liberal Muslims face the facts about their book of death and demand corrections, then we will make progress in conquering this koranic cancer.

Since this whole thread seems to have abandoned the topic of pagan chaplains, I'll contribute a quote I found useful, from a column by Cathy Young in the Chicago Tribune:
"It is true that, in the age of militant Islamic terrorism, it is not very helpful to tell millions of peaceful Muslims that their religion is inherently violent, evil and oppressive. It is equally unhelpful...to deny the obvious: The best hope for peaceful coexistence is for the Islamic world to embrace modernization and individual liberty, not for the West to turn its back on those values."
(Cathy Young is an editor of the libertarian, conservative-leaning magazine "Reason.")

pamela, i have done research and you have been overwhelmingly silent.

even on this forum to the question "is islam violent" you stated: "let me be very clear the question is exceptionally offensive and borders on religious bigotry."

here's your thread on how satisfied you are in life. no word for your suffering coreligionists.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/pamela_k_taylor/2007/05/life_is_good_do_not_post_yet.html

here's your thread where many posters spoke for muslim women facing death. you were silent.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/pamela_k_taylor/2007/06/treading_dangerous_ground.html

i hope you have broken your silence and will confront the CANCER that has its roots in Islam.

Melinda,

Please do some research before you say things like, "Why are you not speaking out for your sisters?" I speak out and act on behalf of my sisters all the time. The situation for many Muslim women is clearly desperate, a result of third world conditions combined with an upsurge of puritanical religiosity. Unfortunately, our ability to effect change in the Muslim world from here is limited, and the ability to effect change from within those countries is even more limited. We do what we can, but the best is to support individuals who are working on the ground there.

Masmoodah Jalal, for instance, who was the woman who ran for president in Afghanistan, has a foundation that focuses on education and health care for Afghani women. I strongly recommend supporting that organization (the Jalal Foundation) if you have the wherewithal.

Similarly I support efforts by international organizations such as Amensty International to put pressure on repressive governments.

if you are PROGRESSIVE -why are you not SPEAKING OUT for your sisters?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlqyDAThrpA&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kc4dTfC2dE&mode=related&search=

victoria. your chosen religion has a CANCER that MUST be dealt with.

when did the irish plan to convert or conquer the entire world?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRH9dbMMjLQ&mode=related&search=

as a muslim -do you believe there will be no peace until global sharia is established?

a salaamu alaikum pamela-

you just keep on with your good message-

somehow this got lost in the rush to throw stones

pamelas words-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" We have written statements and signed petitions. We have issued theological explanations why terrorism is completely foreign to Islamic concepts of just war. It seems to me that enough is enough. We do not have to say something everytime some Muslim does something bad. And that to continue to do so just plays into the notion that somehow unless you say you hate this particular act of violence you condone it, even though you have clearly stated that you condemn all such acts of violence. That overarching statement obviously includes any act taking place before or after the statement has been made."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

does anyone really expect every muslim to preface ever utterance with such a denunciation?

how many times must she say it?

mercy, she has expressed sentiments that mirror your own expressed views paganplace

paganplace i am both irish and was catholic - as a matter of fact i worked in a restaurant for 1 1/2 years where i cooked irish food 6 days a week, and the ancient order of the hibernians met there a couple of times a week, sometimes more-

and at no time ever - in any instance whatsoever- did i- or anyone i know (who were alot of irish catholics) ever get asked to apologize for the terrorist in ireland because we were catholic and irish.

ever
it just didnt ever happen

on the other hand- theres a special on tv right now about muslims against jihad- and its pretty solidly a blnket accusation against any who claim to be religious and muslim-

while massively over dramatizing the issue of the irish- which just didnt exist- didnt happen- never saw any instance- any tv show nothing-

and minimizing the real hostility against muslims that WE CAN SEE ILLUSTRATED ABUNDANTLY RIGHT ON THESE BOARDS-

you are making a false connection based on anecdotal incidence (without even providing one anecdote)

diminishing the persecution others have experienced doesnt quantify the persecutions of others

you say they "often" ignore the christianconnection-

no they always ignore it-

ewven as a pagan you know you have never heard the words christian terrorist or protestant terrorist or catholic terrorist-

anywhere.

even when the irsh were blowing each other up regularly, it was orange and green, north and south-

as my brother used to say, there is far fetched, and further stretched.

McVeigh got the chair. Koresh got incinerated. Neither were good Christians and violated all the teachings of the NT.

Hopefully the koranic crazies in the UK meet the same fate as McVeigh. Unlike McVeigh, these koranic crazies follow the dictates of their "NT", the same dictates being followed 24/7 by analogous koranic crazies around the globe.

Bottom line: The koran has got to be nullified either by reason or by force.

"As for the plot in England involving the doctors, I have three thoughts. 1) It is horrific that doctors, whose calling is to heal, would do something like this. 2) Thank God they failed."

I'd personally thank Those That Keep Our Oaths, and a government that, having some experience in the matter, treats terrorism as primarily a policing matter, rather than an actual 'holy war' to be fought with a military.

" 3) There is a tyranny in insisting that every time a Muslim commits an evil all other Muslims must denounce it. This assumes that if we don't denounce it we support it, which is a ludicrous assumption. Does every Christian have to denounce every act of terrorism committed by a Christian, such as Timothy McVeigh that Megan mentioned?"

Well, often, they ignore the Christian connections, if they don't take their side: look at Koresh. And Mc Veigh.

"When the IRA was bombing regularly did we demand all Catholics renounce each act of terror as they occurred on a near daily basis?"

Actually, I seem to remember that's exactly what was done. Heck, just being Irish, some'd call you a terrorist if you didn't both repudiate the acts of terror and say this meant how non-Protestants have been treated in Ireland was righteous and OK.

Problematic, but not *solely* directed against Muslims.

Heck, some of these Christians still point at Stalin or the Sandanistas as a reason to say single-payer health insurance is anti-American.

Pamela,

The Swedish report reference? Definition of terrorist attack?

So you condemned the attack on UK citizens and their airports by the koranic doctors bred, born and brainwashed in Islam. Good, now please address the root cause of this conduct i.e. your religion's founder and his and his scribes book of death i.e. the koran.

As noted before, here are some starting points:

Apparently the Muslims on this blog are afraid of Islamic reprisals since they never give any suggestions for changes to the koran. So let us start the process for them.

Part 1 of the "cleansing".

"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)

"1. Belief in Allah"

No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

pam girl, they are still watching you and commenting on utube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ESiEHrhpSg&mode=related&search=

لا حولا و لا قوة الا بلله.... لم نسمع عن امراءة أمت المسلمين لا فى عهد رسول الله و لا فى غير عهده صدق القائل.. و كم قارىء للقرأن و القرأن يلعنه

btw, im in no way defending this woman's deeds...she's out of her mind...

Megan,

An interesting report came out of Sweden a couple months back analysing the past year's worth of terrorist attacks in Europe. Out of several hundred incidents exactly one had been carried out by Muslims.

That doesn't mean that Muslims don't have to do something about extremists and terrorists in our midst. We do. But the world also needs tom maintain some perspective. Muslims are not the only terrorists, or even the majority of terrorists. And we certainly didn't invent terrorism.

As for the plot in England involving the doctors, I have three thoughts. 1) It is horrific that doctors, whose calling is to heal, would do something like this. 2) Thank God they failed. 3) There is a tyranny in insisting that every time a Muslim commits an evil all other Muslims must denounce it. This assumes that if we don't denounce it we support it, which is a ludicrous assumption. Does every Christian have to denounce every act of terrorism committed by a Christian, such as Timothy McVeigh that Megan mentioned? When the IRA was bombing regularly did we demand all Catholics renounce each act of terror as they occurred on a near daily basis? Of course not, because we knew most Catholics abhorred that violence. Muslims in America have made very clear their abhorence of terrorism. We have written statements and signed petitions. We have issued theological explanations why terrorism is completely foreign to Islamic concepts of just war. It seems to me that enough is enough. We do not have to say something everytime some Muslim does something bad. And taht to continue to do so just plays into the notion that somehow unless you say you hate this particular act of violence you condone it, even though you have clearly stated that you condemn all such acts of violence. That overarching statement obviously includes any act taking place before or after the statement has been made.

Dear Megan,

What you write is the third class demagogism.
IRA is a local one.
Anti-abortion army is not suitable example.
ETA and Tiger Force are ethnical and local as well.
Catholic Reaction Force,who knows what it is.
Timothy McVeigh is the polemic of Paganplace/Lepidopteryx.

At present time,there is only one 'world-wide terror',this is 'Islamic terror' and it is indisputable.
Cult of violence doesnt mean only 'the armed terror',but,violence on women also should be spoken.
Penguin women(women in black wrap),isnt it a torture?
Doesnt your 'conscience'pain?

this sweet little man would like to enlighten you:

AMERICANS ARE NOT IGNORANT,THEY'LL LEARN ISLAM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es0ATMdsEQE&mode=related&search=

Previous Commentary--

Facts: **NOT ALL ISLAMISTS/MOHAMMEDANS ARE TERRORISTS OR EXTREMISTS, BUT ALL TERRORISTS OR EXTREMISTS ARE, WITHOUT A DOUBT ISLAMISTS/MOHAMMEDANS!!!**

lepidopteryx: Two words - Timothy McVeigh

I SAY: How about the Irish Republic Army (IRA)? It was considered a terrorist organization until 2000.

What about Clayton Waagner, member of the antiabortion Army of God terrorist organization, who sent anthrax to hundreds of clinics?

What about the ETA? or the the Alex Bancayao Brigade? Bhinderanwala Tiger Force? Catholic Reaction Force? Sendero Luminoso?

There are hundreds and hundreds of terrorist organizations, and a good portion of them are not associated with Islam in anyway.

Our bet was that someone would be whining on this thread. Easy money..

I made a bet with a coworker that Frank Collins would be here. Frank, you never fail me.

lepidopteryx wrote:
It could very well mean the same thing that the Bible means when it says "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." But just as most modern Christians don't go lookng for witches to stone or burn, most modern Muslims don't go looking to kill non-Muslims.

Examples from the bible does not really answer the question as I'm not a southern baptist.

I'd like to know from muslims (preferably) why does Allah curse and who carries out this curse ?

"...most modern Muslims don't go looking to kill non-Muslims."

Really?

What world do you live in? Look at most places in the Middle East, look at Palestine, look at Kashmir, look at Chechnya, look at Africa, look at the thwarted terror attacks in London and Glassgow...who was involved in all of these?
Of course....ISLAMISTS!

Posted on July 6, 2007 11:51

ross:
**lepidopteryx wrote:
Ross, how is that any different from the Biblical declaration that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord."?

The above words are written by human authors of the bible. Anyways the christians don't believe the bible to be infallible or perfect.**

Actually, the Xian churches I grew up in (Southern Baptist) taught exactly that - the the Bible was the infallible, perfect word of the One True God, and that it was to be believed to the letter.

**The quran is supposed to be Allah's literal words dictated to Mo, so what does Allah's curse mean ?**

It could very well mean the same thing that the Bible means when it says "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." But just as most modern Christians don't go lookng for witches to stone or burn, most modern Muslims don't go looking to kill non-Muslims.

lepidopteryx wrote:
Ross, how is that any different from the Biblical declaration that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord."?

The above words are written by human authors of the bible. Anyways the christians don't believe the bible to be infallible or perfect.

The quran is supposed to be Allah's literal words dictated to Mo, so what does Allah's curse mean ?

Facts: **NOT ALL ISLAMISTS/MOHAMMEDANS ARE TERRORISTS OR EXTREMISTS, BUT ALL TERRORISTS OR EXTREMISTS ARE, WITHOUT A DOUBT ISLAMISTS/MOHAMMEDANS!!!**

Two words - Timothy McVeigh

From ~800 AD to ~1800 AD, in the Indian subcontinent (present day India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal), muslims committed atrocities, the likes of which the rest of the world probably has never seen (and let us hope NEVER HAS TO see). One of the posters above rightly said that British ruling India was actually a good thing for the Hindus, Sikha, Jains and Buddhists because that is what protected them from these radical and fundamentalist islamist zealots. Not to trivialize the holocaust, but if you study history, the atrocities committed by muslims in India make the holocaust look like a small skirmish.
muslims are still doing that today all over the world, where they will try to stoke up trouble, riot and disrupt peoples' lives. And go and see any islamic nation like saudi arabia, iran or pakistan and see how many non-muslims live there happily, peacefully. How many non-muslims can practice their respective religions fearlessly in these fanatic, crazy, barbaric country such as iran or pakistan!

Read history (and EVEN CURRENT NEWS, as current as last weeks events in UK) and then let us see if anyone can really claim these islamist mohammedans to be peaceful.

TAKE ANY CASE OF VIOLENCE AROUND THE WORLD AND YOU WILL SEE A GOOD PERCENTAGE OF THOSE INITIATED AND PERPETRATED BY THESE MOHAMMEDANS...

NOT ALL ISLAMISTS/MOHAMMEDANS ARE TERRORISTS OR EXTREMISTS, BUT ALL TERRORISTS OR EXTREMISTS ARE, WITHOUT A DOUBT ISLAMISTS/MOHAMMEDANS!!!

ross:
**Halozcel wrote:
Cow chapter 161,Those who reject Faith(only islam)and die rejecting,on them is the curse of Allah.

Halozcel,

This is an interesting verse, Allah cursing people !!!!!
Now the question is who carries out Allah's curse ???

Any muslims care to answer ?**

Ross, how is that any different from the Biblical declaration that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord."?

Halozcel wrote:
Cow chapter 161,Those who reject Faith(only islam)and die rejecting,on them is the curse of Allah.

Halozcel,

This is an interesting verse, Allah cursing people !!!!!
Now the question is who carries out Allah's curse ???

Any muslims care to answer ?

Tufail,

Cow chapter 177 doesnt mean what you write.
Cow chapter 177 describes 'true believer muslim'.
First of all,you shall believe in Allah(not God) and you shall worship 150 times in arabic language in a month,then you shall be 'sincere muslim'.
Dear Tufail,Islam hates from non-muslims(infidels),so,nobody needs to distort 'clean simple statement'.
For example,very clear simple statement,
Cow chapter 161,Those who reject Faith(only islam)and die rejecting,on them is the curse of Allah.

Dear Pamela,
'If muslims are supposed to kill all non-muslims'
First,it is not a suppose,but absolutely 'mandate',
Second,India.Millions of Hindu massacred by muslims during the muslim invasion,but they couldnt cleanse all Hindus,because any islamic goverment couldnt last much longer then one hundred years.Only exception,Babur Empire lasted 1526-1857.

Pamela,

To refer to what happened in India as "atrocities committed from time to time," and to maintain that "the general rule was co-existence and religious tolerance, as it remains today" is a denial and whitewash of what happened. You should read up a lot more on this subject before making statements like that.

"Muslims for Progressive Values" is the best idea i've heard of in a long, long time. The world need lots of muslim hippies and muslim peaceniks and definitely some female imams!!

The SUN (not the Son) is so clearly and obviously the source and sustenance of all life on earth, how can anyone argue against pagan worship of the sun? Who has demonstrated definitively that the sun possesses neither mind nor intelligence?

Military chaplains are an odd concept to begin with. I have tremendous respect and admiration for our (US) nation's soldiers, but it's impossible to deny that they are professional killers. As an agnostic, I have no problem with that (hence my respect and admiration), but as men/women of faith, chaplains should have nothing but problems with that! How could you not council each soldier: "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek?"

What is in England is in America?

Inayat Bunglawala, 36, the media secretary for the Muslim Council of Britain, is understood to have been selected as one of seven "conveners" for a Home Office task force with responsibilities for tackling extremism among young Muslims, despite a history of anti-Semitic statements.

In January 1993, Mr Bunglawala wrote a letter to Private Eye, the satirical magazine, in which he called the blind Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahman "courageous" - just a month before he bombed the World Trade Center in New York. After Rahman's arrest in July that year, Mr Bunglawala said that it was probably only because of his "calling on Muslims to fulfil their duty to Allah and to fight against oppression and oppressors everywhere".

Five months before 9/11, Mr Bunglawala also circulated writings of Osama bin Laden, who he regarded as a "freedom fighter", to hundreds of Muslims in Britain. (read more at utube link)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGZX2QcMTT4

Pam,

Seven Islamic doctors recently followed the dictates of your book of death and yet you remain silent.

Pamela,

You have to take the population of Pakistan and Bangladesh in account, when these are added to India's population the population of muslims becomes close to 50 percent. The genocide of the hindus by muslim rulers over a period of 500 years was the worst in history. If the british had'nt intervened the non muslim population of India today would be negligible. India today is majority hindu nation because it does not include Pakistan and Bangladesh that have negligible hindu populations.

I might add, that the verse which can be translated either as "Let there be no compulsion in religion" or "there is no compulsion in religion" does not specify that this basic guarantee of religious freedom pertains only to certain groups, religious, ethnic, or otherwise. It does not say only for Muslims or People of the Book; it clearly applies to all human beings, no matter what their faith.

Frank, if Muslims are supposed to kill all non-Muslims, and in particular pagans, how do you explain the fact that India remains majority Hindu despite centuries of Muslim government? I know there were atrocities committed from time to time, but the general rule was co-existence and religious tolerance, as it remains today.

Clearly vast numbers of Muslims do not agree with your understanding of Islam, both today and historically.

All decent Muslims agree with Ms. Taylor who summerized the following verse in her short article.

Koran. 2.177
"It is not righteousness that you turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believes in God and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and gives wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God-conscious."

Unfortunately, extremists such as Mr Collins, supporters of Al Quida and Wohabism etc would distort the clear simple statement in the Qur'an to promote hate and discord between innocent human beings.

Frank.

Your opening comment, well name calling, towards Pamela was totally out of line.

You have too much hate in your heart. You have notihng to add to these discussions if all you bring is hate. If that is the case please refrain from posting.

Frank I hope that you find some peace.

regards,

Rob

Asim,

Can you provide the sources for the "jewish neighbour throwing garbage at the prophet" story ?

This incident never happened to Mo, it is plagiarised from an incident that happened to the prophet Abdul Baha the founder of the Bahai faith. Muslim love to quote this incident without providing the relevant sources.

Is it so difficult to provide any good deeds committed by Mo ?

You can't judge a whole race/group of people by the actions of a highly volatile and violent few. Those who make the most noise and cause the most problems are the ones who will get noticed rather than your everyday person. To judge all the followers of Islam by a few is like saying that all followers of Christ are the same as those infamous Westboro Baptists with their vitriol and spreading of hatred. They profess to follow another Holy Book too - the Bible, but I never found anything in the Bible that says you should protest dead soilers funerals & grin with glee at the loss of life in war. Its unfair and unjustified to judge the many normals on the few crazies.Of all the Muslims I know and have classed as friends not one of them would consider the terrorists as true followers of Islam just as no christian would accept the Westboro group as belonging to the same fold.

As for the Pagan chaplains - I look forward to the day when religious tolerance and equality is recognised by the governments & such a large belief system is treated as fairly as all the others.

If it were not for the "bred to kill", koranic crazies, we would need significantly fewer military personnel and therefore significantly fewer chaplins of any religion or pagan cult.

Jihadist, you should emphasize the eradication of these "bred to kill" crazies in your liberal Islamic commentaries. Until you do, we unbelievers will continue for our own safety to adhere to the following principle:

Gators vs. Muslims-- Gators definitely will kill. With Muslims it depends but with the koran as their operating manual, we cannot trust any of them. The recent conduct of the seven Islamic doctors in Great Britain proves the point.

If it were not for the "bred to kill", koranic crazies, we would need significantly fewer military personnel and therefore significantly fewer chaplins of any religion or pagan cult would be needed.

Pam, you should emphasize the eradication of these "bred to kill" crazies in your liberal Islamic commentaries. Until you do, we unbelievers will continue for our own safety to adhere to the following principle:

Gators vs. Muslims-- Gators definitely will kill. With Muslims it depends but with the koran as their operating manual, we cannot trust any of them. The recent conduct of the seven Islamic doctors in Great Britain proves the point.

Att: F R A N K enstein, [Perfect Man?]

".... outlaw all islam, destroy every mosk and make the practice of it a crime, just like islam did 1400 years ago when they took by force that which they could not get by faith.
DEATH TO THE CULT OF ISLAM"!

Sounds more Hallal then Helish to me! Ya Ya Lets Get it over with.... Y Ya Ya. But Wait Frank! Halt! Lets Leave the Planet! Ya?

O.K.

Eye [No more Kabba in Mecca for WTC] for an eye and tooth for a tooth [no more Al Aqsa Dome in Jerusalem for Pentagon].

Frank?, Sounds like a Plan Frank. O.K, I'll give you the first honors to press the "Button" Go!

"I Love It When a Plan Comes Together"

- Hanebil, in "The "A" Team"

Ummm... I think I'll stay out of this one. Things are getting ugly in here.

)O(

Ummm... I think I'll stay out of this one. Things are getting ugly in here.

)O(

Pamela,
Healthy and human mind-to me that is the spirit of Islam-judje people on theeir merits.

A jewish neighbour of the Prophet (pbuh) used to throw dirt and garbbage at his door;the jew fell ill and the Prophet went to his house to visit and look after him;and once the Prophet was with his companions in the market place and a jewish funeral passed by so he stood up in respect and humility to the funeral-and was asked by one his companios as to why he stood up in respect to the jewish funeral and the Prophet said: is not the jewish soul a human soul??

It's our humanity that ties all together-regardless of religion and very thing elese.

Frank, the biggest problem Islam has is the nonthinking Americans. They hear things like, "kill all the Jews" and think it's Nazis, the older generation in particular. Dumb Americans can't tell the difference. It's all the administration can do to make sure they understand it's only Islamic extremists, that Muslim is faith[in God] and not to worry. God, the almighty, the higher power will never let us down. Have faith!

Frank:

None of the Muslims within my circle of friends have ever attempted to kill me, blow up my house or car, or harm me in any way.
They don't agree with my religion, but we are friends nonetheless, and often have some very interesting theosophical discussions.

Farfur the Hamas Mouse is dead.

Any comments?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iDMta_VBdLQ

Pamela,

A very sensible statement. I agree with you.

Pamela,

A very sensible statement. I agree with you.

Ooooops. B G o n e,

One exception.

If one wants , out of custom not Symbolicism, a candidate or prospect can uphold & make forever honorable, the U.S. Constitution, instead of bible Constitution, Nor by sword, Gun, idol, etc..

So if one holds and lays hand upon the original constitution in the runtunda and then sais, "I promise as expected..and according to the fathers.." then this is an Eclati-on Exception to the swearing In rule or bye passings for the purpose of such ensemble impressions! ya Ya.

Sorry Jacob, didn't mean to leave your *book* out of the stack the new president will swear on. You do have a book? It is written? You're not just making that up as you go are you?

Stick to your guns. Get a lawyer. Yours is as good as theirs. Better than theirs?

Why does the word *lawyer* strike terror into the hearts of mortal Vicars? Next thing that happens is a big law suit against a ministry claiming emotional disorder caused by threats of hell while only a child. From the tiny acorn the mighty oak tree grows...

Jesus loves money this I know for the Bible tells me so. She chased the money changers out and took over the business,, until she got crucified. Women have their place. Isn't that so Pamela? You got your place dictated by the Ayatollah? Jesus was a woman!!! They put her in her place.

Nice pitch Jacob but you don't believe in God just like the Pagans so forget it. All you can do is cry out that "one nation under God" is NOT all the way under God yet. How far under is under anyhow?

The pledge will soon need be updated to, "one divided on religious principles nation under God" The little children will be pledging their loyalty to the pope-like person of their free choice, to be mumbled.

Prophecy: We will know the end is at hand when the new president puts h/er hand on the constitution and swears to uphold and defend. So far they only uphold and defend what the put their hands on while taking the oath. That's the Bible of course and soon to include a *stack of books* to include the Qu'ran and the Book Of Mormon.

When tax money is spent promoting faith, religion is not free, not that it is otherwise. The big money goes to the Ayatollah that leads the multitude to hell, just like other Vicars, God's attorneys with the power to sign God's name.

Get educated, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul Moses sold his soul to gain the wealth of earth, creature comforts for himself just like Ayatollahs. Moses set the pace, the original maker of the big money. Pagans are no less entitled.

"P.S., Pagans are Violent. See How in Greece they are making a come back by terror!"

Terror? You'll have to back that up... Of course it's been *called* terror by Christians who have been forcibly abridging the rights of Pagans under the EU constitution, and call it *terror* when the police say 'You can't worship,' and Pagans say 'Yes we can'.

That's not 'terror,' as it's called, that's civil disobedience for rights they were supposed to have been extended by now.

Actually, Pamela, there are more Pagans in the military than Muslims... And the Muslims have several chaplains already.