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Nivedita and Soja:

You should know that there is no compulsion in Hinduism against conversion. A few months back, American newspapers reported that thousands of lower caste Hinuds converted into Buddhism in Mumbai recently to escape caste discrimination. In many ways, Hindu philosophy and practices are the exact opposite of Islam. A list of such practices follows:

Hinduism Islam
Criticism of religion: No one cares Death
Critcism of prophet No one cares Death
Conversion away Allowed Death
Worship Image or none None only
Food Flexible V. Strict
Marriage No conversion Convert

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And today, all the major channels carried the news that the British teacher in Sudan is set to receive a jail sentence and 40 lashes for naming a teddy bear "Muhhamed" in a school in Sudan.

Whenever there are examples from life about the intolerance in Islam and the barbaric nature in which it is practiced in many parts of the world, Muslims say "No, no, this is not right. Non-Muslims don't understand. Many of them are bigots and islamophobics. Actually, according to the Koran, verse 265, stanza 690, page 280, it is written that "Islam is peace..etc' (The exact opposite of what non-Muslims are trying to imply.

So my question is, which chapter and verse are Muslims going to quote to convince us that the 40 lashes to be dished out to a teacher in Sudan is not sanctioned by Islam? The point is that Islam will be judged by the actions of Muslims and not by the quotes attributed to that book. The actions of Islamic governments around the world has been terrible. They are an embarrasment to humanity. And they confirm all our stereotypes about Islam and Muslims being violent, often barbaric and extremely intolerant. So Muslims, take care of your actions if you wish to be free of the ridicule.

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Dear Nivedita

I did not respond to your replies earlier because I have only now seen your response.

You say Hinduism is at odds with Christianity in India. That is definitely not the case in Kerala (where I hail from) nor the South in general. Problems began in certain parts of the North only with the rise of Hindu fundamentalism. You say that it was alright for Shankaracharya to reconvert the Buddhists to Hinduism based on his interpretation of Hinduism, and yet you fail to accept that one can convert to Christianity based on the merits of Christianity alone, if some kind of material inducement were not offered. I can attest to the fact that my Hindu ancestors and many others like them converted to Christianity based on its merit, not for the sake of any material benefit. I do not call myself a "Nambudiri Christian" for if the Christians retained the caste system as part of their conversion, then I should be forced to refer to myself in that way.

Any identification of Christians with their caste in society has more to do with identifying with their social background and customs and has nothing whatsoever to do with their religious belief. The early Christian converts for some reason did not feel the need to identify with their Hindu caste.

I do agree that the Hindu caste system in its present form (and has been practised for many centuries) is a social structure that has little to do with any Hindu philosophy stemming from the Vedas, Upanishads or Bhagavad Gita.

I'm sorry to hear that your ancestors were forced to flee from Goa because they did not want to convert to Christianity. I cannot however recall that Hindus were killed for not converting to Christianity - even under Portugese rule in Goa. That sort of conversion is associated with Muslims when they invaded North India and brought Islam as part of the political rule.

I do happen to know that Mother Theresa did not force conversions in order to offer help. None of the destitute who were cared for by her and her nuns made any attempt to convert anyone. What they offered was palliative care to the destitute and dying. Their work was based on their Christian faith, but they did not force it on the receipients of their help.

If Christians differentiates between a believer and non-believer, it is simply about distinguishing between people who believe in Jesus as the Saviour and those who don't. It is no different from a Hindu referring to those who practise other religions as non-Hindus. What is the problem there? If a Christian believes that they have a message that can make another human beings happier, then should not such good news be made available to everyone? Would you consider it wrong for someone who has found a cure for a certain disease to keep silent about the benefits of the medicine that has helped them? I agree that religion should not be forced on anyone. Jesus Himself did not force anyone to follow Him, yet He went around the whole country preaching to everyone He could. He commanded His followers to do the same. Any Christian who forces conversion is not obeying the command of Christ. Any Christian who feels called to preach is on the other hand only following the command of Jesus.

BTW, I'm a great admirer of Hinduism. In school I learnt the 18th chapter of the Bhagavad Gita by heart for a Sankrit recitation competition. I have read the Bhagavad Gita, recited some verses as part the Christian religious ceremony in 1992. I am inspired by the Christian commentary of the Bhagavad Gita written by Dom Bede Griffiths, an English Benedictine monk and am even of the opinion that every Christian should read it along with the Bible. I have read some of the Upanishads and do enjoy reading some the Hindu greats. (My only regret is that I have not read as much as I would like to.) I have spent several months (over several visits) at a Christian Ashram ( http://www.bedegriffiths.com )where Hindu prayers formed part of the worship.

So my concern is only about Hindu fundamentalists preventing Indians from exercising their basic human right to follow any religion and convert to any religion of their choice.

Best wishes
Soja

To Nivedita

While condeming Christianity and Islam for spreading their faith to others you have conveniently ignored your own history. It is most possible that you belong to Aryan race. who came to India with their own set of rituals and beliefs and you forced your belief system to native Dravidian and put them in the lowest of the categories in the caste system you snatched their land out of them and condemed them forever in the unending cycle of poverty, humiliation and condemnation. Now you are complaining about others what a hyprocratic point of view. I can go on and on this subject but I want you to think.

I don't deny the good work done by missionaries in India. However, even Mother Teresa was not completely selfless. Those who sought help had to convert to Christianity in order to get help. Therefore, if the good work comes along with an ulterior motive, I do not think it is good work at all since its motivated by the desire to "harvest souls in the name of Jesus". I'm sorry, but if you are truly altruistic, you would not accept anything in return. Period. If Christianity is so free and open, then I do not think it should discriminate between "believers" and "non-believers". That is one of the major flaws in the very foundation of Christianity in my opinion. This particular view leads me to think that God is biased and angry, in other words very much "HUMAN". Thats a contradiction right there, isn't it? Don't get me wrong, I respect your decision to practice Christianity though I do not agree with it at all. But, it certainly does not have a monopoly on the "truth" as one may call it.

Oh, just one more thing. Neither Buddhists not Hindus proseltyse. The Shankaracharya did herald a new Hindu wave, but that was not by means of inducements or threats or trying to outdo Buddhism. It was his version of Hinduism and its rendition that people were attracted to. It was completely based on the merit of his interpretation of Hinduism and not based on attacking nor critisizing Buddhism. Thats not called having converting tendencies, thats called power of interpretation. The same holds good for Buddhism. I'd say the earliest converts to Christianity from India were probably swayed to Christianity in a similar manner. I'm sorry to say but this is certainly not what either Islam or Christianity uses while seeking converts now for sure. They always deride the other faiths.

Soja:

I apologise since I did misunderstand a lot of what you wrote. Thanks for the clarification. My ancestors were from Goa and during the Portuguese inquisition all the Hindus in Goa were either forcibly converted or had to flee. Mine chose to flee holding close to them their precious kuldevatas who were derrided as devils by the Portuguese. The community I belong to was forced out from its homeland by these very same Christians. The situation is not very different from the plight of the Kashmiri pandits who have been forced out by Pakistan sponsored terrorists.

Hinduism is at odds with Christianity in India. I agree with you (also in my previous post) when you say that a person should be allowed to convert but only of his / her free will. From what I have seen and based on my personal experiences, this has not been the case. Let me elucidate. How will I react if two nuns (now I went to a missionary school and have the highest regard for nuns) come to my home and say they want to lead me from the darkness of my wretched Hindu religion by accepting Christ? I politely showed them the door. I can do this once, twice and perhaps another 10 times. But when they misuse my trust of permitting them to follow their religion peacefully in my country by abusing Hinduism in my home,in my country, beyond a point I will not tolerate it. Such "conversion" attempts continually have certainly been responsible for the growing intolerance for Christian missionaries.

You point out to the reconversion tactics. I'll say its fair. The missionaries converted the tribals by unfair means and now the Hindus are reclaiming the converts. Doesn't your stand look like hypocrisy to you? To explain, as long as they convert Hindus to Christianity its fine, but its so wrong if things happen the other way round?

Now, like I said previously, both Christian and Muslim converts still practise the caste based system though technically they have been "liberated" from it. So, casteism now is more of a generic social evil rather than a purely Hindu social evil.

So, in a nutshell, I believe that everyone has a right to practise whatever religion they want but certainly I expect everyone to respect other religions irrespective of whether their religion tells them to proseltyse or not. Let us not be hypocrites here. Those are the rules of living in a multi cultural society and I expect you to respect my right to practice my religion as I respect yours. Don't justify conversions on the nature of the faith.

PS: BTW Nivedita, the good works Christians do in terms of upliftment of the poor in India and elsewhere is in obedience to the commandment (not suggestion) of Jesus to love one's neighbour (even enemies) as oneself. Jesus Christ, as incarnation of God, chose to be born poor, identified with the poor and sick of His day and told His disciples that whatever they did for the least of His brethren would be counted as being done for Him. Hence Mother Theresa of Calcutta and others like her. Hinduism which considers this world as "maya" or illusion and believes in reincarnation to pay for sins (with the result any suffering person/others could consider their suffering in this life as paying for sins in their past birth) therefore has a different world view towards suffering compared to Christianity. Different religions have much in common but also some differences, some insights and revelation being unique to each. Hence there is more than one religion in the world.

Nivedita

Let me emphasise first of all that I do NOT condone violence in the name of ANY religion, be it Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Sikhism (listed in alphabetical order) etc. I do hope you understand that I'm therefore not singling out Hindu militants. I'm glad you don't approve of violence in the name of Hinduism either.

When I said that Hindus wanting to convert to other religions must be given the freedom to do so, I meant that no one should be denied the right to choose to worship God in anyway they choose. Hinduism, being a confederation of religions, accepts that people choose to worship God in different ways, choosing different dieties (different aspects/manifestations of the one God) etc. I was referring to press reports that Hindu militants are PREVENTING conversion of Hindus to other religions, and are forcing reconversion to Hinduism. That is totally against Indian law: India is a secular democracy which allows religious freedom. So conversion from one religion to another is deemed the fundamental right of every Indian. You wrote that Hinduism is an all embracing religion. I agree fully with that, which is precisely why Hindu militants do Hinduism great injustice.

I do know about the attempt of the Indian government to uplift the Dalits by reserving quotas for them in educational institutions and government jobs. Since Dalits have been disadvantaged for millennia before their conversion to other religions, it is only fair to give them opportunity to break out of that situation. However the preferential treatment should be based on their economic situation.

Christianity and Islam are religions which evangelise. As far as Christianity is concerned I can say that it is because the disciples of Jesus were instructed to do so. The message of Jesus Christ is however supposed to bring peace and liberation - the opportunity to break free from the cycles of birth and death, liberation from reincarnation because of the atoning work of Jesus Christ. I do admit that Christians are "guilty" of having used material enticement and social upliftment to encourage conversion. However many Christians from the state of Kerala, (from where I hail) can attest to the fact that they did not convert for the sake of material benefit. Nambudiris, Brahmins from Kerala, practice the oldest form of Hindu Vedic religion. Many of them converted to Christianity in 52 AD, when a disciple of Jesus, Apostle Thomas, came to Kerala, although they had nothing to gain materially but much to lose from the conversion. My family claims to be among those early Brahmin converts. It is equally true that later mass conversions to Christianity (nearly fifteen centuries later) were from the lower castes and many of them (not all) did it for material reasons, including escape from the Hindu caste system. When a Hindu converts to Christianity, they worship Jesus Christ (instead of Rama or Krishna) as "Ishta Devata" or Incarnation of God, that is all.

I find it rather disappointing that you attribute the "convert or die" tactics to Christians. I would be very interested to know under what circumstances your ancestors were forced to flee Christians. It comes across as extremely unusual to me. If you were to read the history of India, you would know that conversion by force is usually attributed to Muslim invaders and the early conversion to Islam in North India (Islam came to Kerala by peaceful means very early on). I'm equally disappointed to hear your version that the greatest conflict in India is between Hindus and Christians, and not between Hindus and Muslims as is commonly accepted.

Gautama Buddha spent nearly forty five years after his enlightenment walking the length and breadth of India converting Hindus to Buddhism. Hinduism owes it to Shankaracharya (originally a Nambudiri Brahmin from Kerala) for the reconversion of Hindu Buddhist converts back to Hinduism. Buddhism did have a missionary element. I cannot speak for missionary elements in other religions or about Buddhism as it is practised now.

I do not believe that conversion of Hindus to another religion would be an issue to real Hindus, who are as you agreed very peaceful and tolerant and have a universally accepting philosophy. To insist that no Indian has the right to change their religion if they happen to be born a Hindu, isn't really fair to Hinduism.

I was referring to Hindu greats like Mahatma Gandhi, Ramakrishna and Vivekanda who were inspired by Christianity. I did not imply that the Vedas, Upanishads or Bhagavad Gita was inspired by Christianity.

Hopefully I have managed to clear the misunderstanding somewhat.

Best wishes
Soja

Violence like sept11 has political dimension than relegious one.There are violence in every religion.one example is killing of thousands of muslims in gujarat state of India by Hindus.American state dept refused visa for chief minister Narendrs modi who was directly responsible for the riots.Baghavat geeta eventhough full of bloody war cannot be blamed for innocent deaths. Eventhough a Hindu I have read Quran and find it be very moderate in its teaching. Its the wrong interpretation of some of its verses by certain mullahs creating all the problem. Quran says whoever do good whichever religion he belongs will go to heaven.When there are lots of love around why talk only about violence

good article.Violence including sept 11 attack has more political dimension than relegious one. Why talk only about violence when there are lots of love around

You say "Jihad by sword is only to relieve oppression". Does that mean that the Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula were oppressed by the Syrians, Egyptians, Spaniards, Italians and Greeks when they stormed out of their desert homeland and subjugated all those people? or was it merely a grand pillage labelled Jihad or "fight for Allah and His Prophet?"

How is Ms. Taylor to explain the marauding bands that came from the Arabian desert and raided the civilized lands of Syria,Mesopotamia,Egypt, North Africa, Spain, Sardinia, Eastern Europe etc.? Where those wide eyed nomads oppressed by all those people that forced them(Muslims) to declare Jihad, or was it raids for plunder but carried under the banner "fighting in Allah's way" i.e. jihad?

Dear Victoria,

Wa Alikum Salaam & Thank you - I am deeply grateful for your advice.

Jazak Allah Kair

Jililah

jililah- go to the islamic education center on elston-
next to mcc

ask for mary ali and say victoria sent you

peace and salaams

PAMELA - PLEASE RESPOND IF YOU READ THIS!

Tim wrote:

Jililah and Jennifer, a world peace movement is a great idea. We are all for it. Below is a link to pictures of a march by Muslims in the streets of London after that cartoon was published. It is not exactly an example of support for free speech nor a peace rally but it is an image we all are familiar with.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/muslimprotest.asp

Come to think I have never seen a picture of a Muslim march with moderates advocating peace. Is this because of bias in the media? Do Muslims only march when they feel insulted. And of course, it does not take much to insult a Muslim, does it?

I am cheering for you Jililah. And I say God bless Jennifer. But then there is reality that hits me in the face. I would like to see you leading a march down the streets of Detroit for peace but then I would fear for you because this just might put a bullseye on your chest? When you hold your first peace rally let us all know, I promise to attend although my family would probably be worried sick about me getting my face on some terrorist hit list. I will also pay for transportation for one other person who would be brave enough to go with me to your first peace rally. Who knows thousands of moderate Muslims might just come out of the closet. I am waiting.

Posted on July 31, 2007 10:19

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jililah wrote:

Thank you Tim - with all my heart I appreciate your support and that of others who would join us in a MUSLIMS for PEACE march.

To be candid, I think the reason, you have not seen this is that we are sadly still a minority due to the great power and money of the corrupt Chicago Wahhabi/Salafi lobby that pretends to promote moderation and peace but is truly just a cover for the Shariah/Caliphate promoting Muslim Brotherhood.

If we organize a peace rally and few show, that would be even a worse media picture than the radicals with their successful rallies. To communicate this very important message to advocate peace and humanitarian aims for all, we must inspire all Muslim moderates which we are trying to do, but fact is - many are fearful, it seems. We would truly need to rally also the non-Muslim global peace activists to support us or our attempt could fail and send an even worse media message. It is sad but true that many Muslim moderates bury their head in the sand or look away fearing involvement.

This is why it was so deeply discouraging for me when I fought the radicals at my Mosque that the moderates did not step up and support me and the radicals that support the Brotherhood rallied big and made a strong case to have me thrown out as a troublemaker. We are really in an awful fix.

But hearing from good and openhearted people, like you, is encouraging and helps us strive forward despite the steep uphill climb.

Thank you Tim - Thank you so much!

Now that Pamela Taylor has established an annual convention for the pro-human rights Muslim moderates, I shall see if we can mobilize this group to a rally as you so wisely suggest.

Best Regards, Jililah

Soja:

I am certainly not trying to justify fundamentalist Hindu actions. It is more of an action to aggressors like Christian missionaries that is causing Hindus to become aggressive. You say that lower caste Hindus are trapped in Hinduism and they should be allowed to embrace other religions. Yet why are there "Dalit" Muslims and "Dalit" Christians who demand reservation based on caste? I so not see how converting to Islam or Christianity removes the caste impediment. You only have to see current Indian news to know that!!

Secondly, Hinduism is an all embracing religion. It is by the way, the oldest religion. So I don't see how Christianity and Islam have contributed to Hinduism as a religion!!! We are accepting of other faiths and people are free to follow their own faith in India!! Unfortunately, adherents of mainly Christianity and Islam misuse the faith we've reposed in them and instead use low means like money and other allurements to induce people to convert. If a person decides to convert, it should be in full knowledge of the religion and a personal decision, not one influenced by money, poverty or talk of "saving your soul from the devil"...Please, do not make excuses for the nasty conversion policies of Christians. My forefathers were given two options, either convert to Christianity or die.So, they just fled! So, don't preach to me about being tolerant. Don't abuse our trust, is all I'll say.

Final point: Indians only have this issue with Christians mainly, not even Muslims to that extent. Why is it that it is that Jains, Parsis, Jews, Buddhists, Sikhs don't seem to have incorporated so well into India and we never here of missionaries from these religions trying to lure people to convert??? Because, they live and let live unlike the Christians in India. If they too just followed their faith and stopped coercing people to convert, perhaps this undesirable situation would not have arisen!

Thank you!

"They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mary. they declared: 'We have put to death the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of God.' they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did...they did not slay him for certain. God lifted him up to him..." (Surah 4:157-158)

What is the deal with this my Muslim friends?

The topic is about Muslim violence. This is directly related to the flaws in the foundations of Islam and its book of death which bases its authenicity on Mo's communications with that fictional character called Gabriel who was borrowed from the Christians who borrowed "him" from the Hittites and other ancient religions.

Ironic how a peaceful fictional character ended up giving credence to a violent religious movement!!!!!

Victoria, Victoria, ole Victoria who refuses to address the flaws in the foundations of Islam. Maybe your husband can help or might he be the problem???

liberated- why dont you start with just one passage- and deal with it in a logical mammer until it is exhausted to your satisfaction?

this seems to really frustrate you, but your contentions are so wildly general that there is no answer for them.

start with the first time one of these passages occurs and post it and your problem with it.

start with the understanding that it will take some time, and we may have to agree to disagree (with respect) on some issues.

peace

Back to the topic:

Read the koran and see the militaristic/violent and anti-female passages. Read history and see the flaws in the authors/foundations of said book. Read the daily news and see the results.

Nivedita

PS: My Hindu ancestors did NOT convert to Christianity to escape being trapped in a lower caste.

Nivedita

As an Indian-Australian woman who happens to be a Christian by conviction, let me say that I'm deeply saddened by your seeming attempt to justify violence by Hindu fundamentalists. The genius of real Hinduism (which is a confederation of religions with many streams of beliefs) is the fact that it is peaceful and universally tolerant. Hence the development with militant elements in it, does great injustice to a great religion. I was disappointed to read that in some instances Hindu fundamentalists have been preventing conversion of Hindus to other religions (which for Hindus trapped forever in lower castes offers a blessing and liberation), or forcing reconversion to Hinduism. That betrays Hinduism itself and the secular democracy that India is. Maybe you'd like to give these reflects of mine some consideration.

It might interest you to know that Hindu greats like Mahatma Gandhi, Ramakrishna and Vivekananda etc were inspired by Christian teachings and the life of Jesus Christ. Yes, it is true that many times Christianity has been misused as a political tool. If you were to read the New Testament yourself, you would understand that the political agenda has nothing to do with the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Jihadist

I'm terribly sorry to hear that your paternal relatives in Aceh did not survive the 2004 tsunami. My heartfelt condolences!

You might like to read the Book of Job in the Old Testament. It is an illustration that bad things DO happen to good people. On the other hand, many evil people prosper and seem to get away with everything they do. Many people have tried to get their head around the mystery and have not come up with an answer yet.

For me personally, that alone is proof that there has to be something beyond this life that takes everything we have done and said into account, my sense of justice demands such a belief. As a believer I strive to live with the mystery of evil and have confidence that the answers will be given me when my time on this side of eternity comes to an end. I'm also prepared for surprises about what I will see about my life when I see it with the eyes God sees me - without my self-deceptions and false ego needs that clouds and distorts my perception of reality at this end of eternity. The concept of a God who searches our hearts and minds and hidden intent answers the rational search for answers to the question of evil.

We know from experience that everything we have thought, felt, said or done remains permanently recorded in our memory. We may keep them out of our consciousness, rationalise the wrong doing in order to get around the guilt and shame, but it is all still there. Many at the point of death have had their whole lives flash before their eyes in an instant. The Book of Revelations in the Bible mentions repeatedly that we will be rewarded/punished in accordance with our deeds and not our beliefs. That is the basis for the Second Vatican Council - it doesn't matter by what name we call our God, what we do is what matters as far as God is concerned. I do believe that God spoke to human beings through many persons at different times in history. As a Christian by conviction I believe nevertheless that the life and teachings of Jesus was a unique cosmic revelation of God who came to show us the light, truth and way to live the best life we could as human beings.

No, this is NOT an attempt to convert you to Christianity! But as I understand Jesus is mentioned in the Quran several times.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Jihadist, Jihadist, Jihadist,

When are you going to address the key issues i.e. the flaws in the foundations of Islam??????

Again, again and again, take an easy flaw, the Gabe "thingie"'s visit to big Mo. The rest of the flaws will then easily flow from the Malaysian high ground.

Jihadist, Jihadist, Jihadist,

When are you going to address the key issues i.e. the flaws in the foundations of Islam??????

Again, again and again, take an easy flaw, the Gabe "thingie"'s visit to big Mo. The rest of the flaws will then easyily flow from the Malaysian high ground.

Hello Anonymous

The good work of Akbar S. Ahmed gives hope to many of us. Another worthwhile read is:

The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam from the Extremists by Khaled M. Abou El Fadl

Jihadist

Religious commenters write on the assumption
that there is a God.
Atheists commenters write on the assumption
that there there is no God.
I'm probably as firm in my atheism
as you are firm in your faith.
I believe that,as there is no God,
religion is unnecessary,divisive and dangerous.
I believe that when the zealots in Pakistan
get their hands on the BOMB,as seems inevitable,
we're toast.
I believe religion makes people crazy.
And it scares me.
And thats why I vent,on these threads.

In your country,I traveled from Medan to Bukittingi and down to Java,and Yogya.Then Borneo.
I was there 3 months.o and Bali too,before the bombing.
Regards..yoyo

HL

Actually I agree with you
that saying,as I did in my comments to Jihad,
"My point was that if there was a God
there would have been no Tsunami",is silly.
I regretted it the moment I read it back to myself.
But it was too late.
I'm glad you've given me an opportunity to
correct it.
No,of course,Tsunamis do not prove there is no God.
Tectonic plates shift.That's life.
I guess I was ramming home the point that
"if God does exist...life is exactly the same as it would be,
if he did not exist."
So why pray? It changes nothing.The faithful die.
It is my belief that in fact
God does not exist.
Except in the imagination.

Okay Yoyo my friend,

I see your point. The point of daily prayers for Muslims is to spiritually acknowledge belief in God, not to ask for divine interventions, but to give strength in dealing with temporal challenges and predicaments, both natural and man-made.

I don't recall any Pakistani or Turkish or Iranian or Indonesian Muslim victims of earthquakes, exploding volcanoes, floods, blaming God, only that it it the will of God, (meaning it is a force of nature or power greater than man, that has to be acknowledge happened and can happen and to deal with it in a wholly practical and scientific way.

Belief of will of God do make many more able to move forward in seeing that it is test of human will and patience. Muslims thought of themselves to be temporary tenants of earth and to be responsible for taking care of the earth and fellow men.

The belief that God give man free will and what s/he do or did not do in life is the individual and collective responsibility to be determined on Judgement Day, a time when the collective and accumulative human failures wreak havoc and destruction on earth.

Enough of that rapid run on the what some call Muslim fatalism (a.k.a predestination of what will happen to the human race with their foibles, idiosyncracies and faults and giving in to the baser ones with the free will and choice that man has).

I do notice that many non-Muslim posters do confuse Christian beliefs with Muslim ones and made refences to belief in God, salvation, sin etc as similar to the Christian ones. But of course, for non-believers, the key point is all religions are warped and belief in God a delusion:). Never mind. We have to start somewhere to weed out and find reason in everything.

I will look up the books you recommended.

Hope you'll visit our Southeast Asian region again. Most diversified group of countries in the world in beliefs, political and economic systems. From the almost absolute Sultanate of Brunei to the communism of Vietnam, the military regimes of Burma and Thailand and various sorts of democracies in Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and the Philippines. Never a dull moment in all these countries still in the works:).

Best regards as always.
J

Jihadist,
I am sorry to hear about the death of your family members in Acheh because of the Tsunami. I am always reminded of the verse in the Quran that deals with this kind of high level of human crisis which says: “And most certainly shall We try you by means of danger, and hunger, and loss of worldly goods, of lives and of the fruits of your toil. But give glad tidings unto those who are patient in adversity - who, when calamity befalls them, say, "To God we belong, and to Him is our return." They are those on whom descend blessings from God, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance."

Yoyo,
You wrote: “My point was that if there was a God there would have been no Tsunami.”
Obviously, you were brought up in a society with a mindset that says the world is divided into good and evil, light and darkness, where the earth is the battleground between God and the devil. And therefore your statement falls inline with the attitude that says either God is not omnipotent to stop the calamities that happen and is therefore helpless to stop them or He lets them happen and therefore does not care. Either way, God is put in a bad light. We Muslims just have a different perspective.

Anonymous,

Calling people names proves nothing. That is the practice of most all the apologists for Islam. Name calling avoids the issue of actually addressing real arguments made by people who are not blinded by political correctness. I prefer to find out about Islam straight from the source. The Qur'an, trusted Haddiths, and the history of Islam is all I need. I do not need a book written by propagandists to blind me to the truth about Islam. The words bellow are the words of Muhammad:

"Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master'" (Bukhari:V4B53N386).

Oh..if we're recommending books

"DOUBT;a History"
by Jennifer Michael Hecht.

A history of doubt and doubters from Socrates
to Voltaire and Dawkins.
550 pages.A great read.

Juhadist
my friend,you misunderstand me.
On the contrary,not for a minute would I gloat
at another's misfortune.
My point was that there is no God.
My point was that if there was a God there
would have been no Tsunami.
I say what kind of God would allow such
horror to be unleashed on the very people
who worship him and pray to him 5 times a day?
If there is such a God,then He doesn't deserve
such worship.
What use is a God who does absolutely nothing?
If he does exist....life is exactly the same
as it would be if he did not exist.
God,I maintain,exists only in the imagination.

Jihadist...I have been to your country.I loved it.
It is an amazing country with wonderful people.
I'll never fotget it.

there is so much hatred evident from most of the posts- oh and ignorance as well.

for those of you who are serious about understanding more about islamic societies in general, may i recommend the following book which I read in college for a course

Islam under seige
By Akbar Ahmed

Of course, if you are narrow-minded and would like to stay narrow-minded, then just dont bother. revel in your ignorance.

Yoyo

At least now you have sobered up a bit and becoming a rational humanist.

I remember you saying in some of your posts several months ago, that Allah could not help Muslims when the tsunami happened, killing thousands of Muslims.

I let that pass and only to remind you that Sri Lankan and Thai Buddhists were also killed, as well as Hindu Indians.

All my relatives on my paternal side in Acheh, Indonesia, did not survive the 26 December 2004 tsunami.

At least you are now moving from merely taunting and instead of being cavalier towards the misfortune of others just because they have beliefs you find personally illogical and reprenhensible, and putting in more thoughtful posts here.

And, I am happy to see that you and I both love bop/jazz.

Best regards as always.
J

LEAVE IRAQ NOW wrote:

I try - I, and many others really do try to help find a solution.

But, you cannot cure an alchoholic if he/she refuses to acknowledge there is a dependency problem. Likewise, Islam cannot be corrected or reformed when the very leadership of the Islamic faith constantly DENIES there is a problem.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DEAR LEAVE IRAQ NOW - I understand your frustration, I really do. I have heard appallingly sugarcoated versions of Islam described at interfaith events and been shocked to see leaders in my community use cutesy sayings to deflect questions that genuinely deserved to be answered honestly.

At one event, the non-Muslim audience asked about jihad as holy war and was told by our speaker "War is never holy - there is no such thing as holy war." My jaw dropped - I couldn't understand why he didn't tell the truth if he truly believed in his religion, he should not be ashamed to tell the truth. He went on to describe jihad as meaning struggle - a defensive struggle with clear guidelines to protect innocence and also the bit about jihad being a struggle against one's baser desires.

The truth is that Jihad used as struggled against oneself for self-improvement was mentioned a few times as the greater jihad, so it IS honest to explain this. The dishonesty arises by NOT explaining that somewhere around 80-90% of the time jihad is used in the context of battle or holy war.

If I had been asked the question I would have said, "Yes - the majority of times reference to jihad appears in Qur'an and Hadith, it does in fact refer to armed struggle - a battle against the hypocrites, traitors and unbelievers. I am not enough of a historical expert in regard to these battles to tell you if they were ALWAYS defensive measures. I tend to believe that the offense in some of these cases may have been slight insults as seen today and the corresponding defensive response a huge outbreak of violence.

The most important thing to relate to the audience, I think, would be to put these battles in the historical context of THAT TRULY IS WHAT WAS THE NORM IN THOSE DAYS. The Crusade mentality was the same. We would be silly to go back in history and say why didn't the Crusaders exercise diplomacy. Conquer and raid and overtake was what was done in those days. That's what Alexander the Great did so well too.

Then naturally, the question would come, "Well now we are civilized and know better. Religions have been reformed and peace and the well-being of humanity is the focus. Why hasn't Islam adopted this rejection of abject violence yet?" I guess the most honest answer to that would be that much of Islam remained isolated from the new modern mentality and now that they are forced to deal with it, resent being told that they must be like Westerners. So they revolt and more violence erupts. Also rulers and religious leaders attempting to stay in power figured that they stay in power best by keeping their people dumbed down and resisting change.

These rulers have for most the entirety of Islam persecuted their academic scholars and freethinkers. Many were executed, thrown in prison or exiled, which keep the stagnancy needed for the political and religious rulers to stay in power and control the masses.

I know we are facing inordinately frustrating times and I agree it is difficult to find people who will speak forthrightly about the aspects of Islamic culture we are not proud of.

I resent the revisionist versions of history too and just do my own research.

I would have liked to have seen Pamela Taylor be a bit more forthright about the jihad issue too, but we have so few good reformers within Islam that it is not good to dismiss a person who has done so much good in other areas. Pamela Taylor is a real fighter for women's rights and has been very successful in organizing the moderates and progressives so we can begin to challenge the radicals posing as moderates as one body. This is a very big step for us.

I get disgusted with all the deceit too - it is a hideous situation. Please don't give up trying to help bring humanity to a higher level. Washington needs to be pressed not to give credibility to the those who aim only to deceive. Muslim moderates appreciate when non-Muslims express faith in our ability to surmount this dreadful problem. It would help if the media would seek out the people that SHOULD genuinely be representing the moderates, such as Dr. Mansoor Alam who is not afraid to say what is currently wrong within our conceptions of Islam. If people like this could be heard, it would help.

In the mean time, if nothing else become a Freedom of Speech activist and make some noise that the US Constitution needs to be firmly protected from the pro-Shariah pro-Caliphate crowd.

Christopher Chase,

The cut and paste articles which are about the actions of Muslims worldwide that are not given much press by the mainstream media demonstrate what true jihad is truly about so they are very relevant to the questions posed on this thread. The problem is that we have been programmed by the mainstream media, our educational institutions, and our politicians to believe that Islam is a religion of peace and that jihad is really about an inner struggle. These lies have all been exposed on this thread but most people are blind to clear reasoned arguments because they look at everything through politically correct glasses. Stop complaining about the cut and paste articles and prove that what they are saying is wrong if you can. The truth about jihad and Islam is clearly understood by examining the life of the warrior prophet Muhammad; the words he wrote that he claimed were from God in the Qur'an. The words of the prophet as recorded in reliable Haddiths, the murderous history of Islam, and what we currently see from Islam in the modern world. Everywhere Islam rules there is intolerance and murder of Christians and Jews. Europe is in danger of falling to Islam if they do not wake up from their politically correct slumber and the USA will be right behind them if we do not realize what the true nature of Islam is all about.

Concerned
I have learned a lot from your posts.
Keep making sense.

Mr Chase

You seem to be upset that many posts
disagree with your view of the world.
What you see here is more like the real world.
We do not all think alike.
If we did these threads would be pointless.
You can learn here.
Here you can see a variety of different religious
beliefs,and a variety of non-beliefs.
Most of us believe what we were raised to believe.
And others of us kick against what we were raised to believe;
and try to make our own sense of it all.

"The greatest jihad, according to the Prophet, is the struggle to control one's baser desires."

What profit the prophet for saying that? Is it so? Do we need someone to tell all what control must be put on "one's baser desires" or is that a case of "we are all sinners" and a high holy one is necessary to save us from ourselves.

Why can't Muslims, Christians and Jews keep their noses out of other people's baser desires when it doesn't effect them at all? Why is everyone required to believe Muhammad had the only way and the correct controls on "one's baser desires"?

Sister Pamela, what gives you are anyone the right to say what controls must be put on "one's baser desires"? Are you making any money at it? Would you do it for free? Do Ayatollahs get rich at it or just live a life of ease at other's expense? Explain how the money isn't your real issue and controlling "one's baser desires" nothing more than a smoke screen, the con's most necessary ingredient, faith in a hoax of one kind or the other.

It must take a genius to understand and all Arabs and other Muslims are simply dumb. Can't we say the same thing about Christians and Jews? Dumb!

The bottom line is simply that gods are fiction,
created by ancestors who were even more ignorant
and confused and therefore even more superstitious than we are today.
People tie themselves in knots trying to explain
and justify their ancient irrational beliefs,into
which they have been indoctrinated from childhood.
As far as we know there are no gods,no supernatural world,
and no reason at all to believe that these fictions are fact.

Jililah says:

"Truly, the emotional hate posts here only express psychological immaturity. If you oppose violence, then help us find a viable solution based upon ISLAM'S OWN DICTATES rather then asking Muslims to forfeit their culture and become Western clones."

I try Jilalih. I, and many others really do try to help find a solution.

But, you cannot cure an alchoholic if he/she refuses to acknowledge there is a dependency problem. Likewise, Islam cannot be corrected or reformed when the very leadership of the Islamic faith constantly DENIES there is a problem.

Take this essayist when she says:

"The greatest jihad, according to the Prophet, is the struggle to control one's baser desires."

How is one to give any credibility to such religious leaders when she makes statements like this. Does she think we are all ignorant about the many verses of the Koran and hadith that COMMAND muslims to conduct warfare on infidels until they convert, pay the jizya or die? Does she think we cannot read the 1,350 year history of violent jihad that has given meaning to the term jihad?

It is near impossible to have a dialogue for change when those persons who could do the most to bring about change want to treat the rest of us like ignorant children.

It would be quite another thing for Taylor to condemn the violent jihadist of the world, such a Osama bin Laden and his kind, by stating in clear unmistakable terms that using violence to spread the faith of islam is never, ever permitted under the most liberal reading and interpretation of the Koran and hadith and that OBL is a violent war criminal that ought to captured and punished by fellow muslims for the damage he has done to the reputation of Islam and for his chronic misinterpretation and misuse of Islam. If she cared so much about how her faith is so misunderstood she ought to be making that statement everyday and shouting it from the rooftops. But she won't.

She could write an essay about how all the leading scholars and most influential muslims around the world should join in a single unambigous unequivical renunciation of the use of violence by muslims against non-muslims, expecially jews, to spread the Islamic faith and to Islamic leaders should begin a program than can be taught in mosques and madrassas throughtout the muslim world to teach how very wrong it is to misinterpret the Koran and hadith and use it as a justification for violence. But she won't.

She can't. that would be doubting the immutable word of her god, Allah and that would be blashemy and dangerous to her own well being.

It is always interesting to see the pro-Islamic posters never try to debate with substantive responses to valid points, such as the very pointed argument by Beslan Jones above showing the exceptions made for disabled and elderly from the duty to jihad.

No defender of Islam here answers that point. It is easier to claim victimhood and avoid the difficult answers and call critics of Islam "haters". I have plenty of criticism for a variety of religions, but becuase I expres them doesn't mean I am being hateful.

I have spend half my life in a Muslim country and I can say it is a second home to me. When my eldest child was born it was a muslim lady who guided me. I have respect for the traditional ladies but there are times when i know that labourers are treated at the most worst ways by countries which have abundant wealth. This is not Muslim charity.The religious police should be after the employers than after women who dont use headdress. Iraqi refugees, also to hear that men from nearby countries are exploiting them is terrible. More resouces should be given to help the refugees.

For Jililah only,

Whereas I was Bred, Born and Brainwashed in Catholicism/Christianity, you were "Triple B'd" in Islam. The way to address the issues with both religions is to come to grips with the flawed foundations of these religions. Below is a short synopsis of these flaws. Please present references refuting these conclusions if you have them.

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate (as per Karen Armstrong), hallucinating Arab (seeing and talking to "pretty wingie flying talking thingies", also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics with most of this misery being funded by the third Axis of Evil aka Iran.
ref.: the front pages of every daily newspaper.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For those who post merely to cast Islam as evil, irrational and false, please let me point out that at various times in history, Islam was a progressive force that assisted the rise of culture in the West. One of Judaism's greatest sages is Maimonides. In Maimonides famous work, "Guide for the Perplexed," the harmony of past ages was noted in the forward of this book. (The paperback edition with bright red cover - do not have it in front of me now to provide better detail, but you can find it on Amazon and THIS is the kind of reading we all need to do for consciousness raising to occur) Anyway, in the forward, a letter that Maimonides wrote is spoken of and he refers to Muslim philosopher Ibn Rush'd (Averroes) who advocated rationalism, as "My Master Abd Allah Ibn Rush'd." Maimonides works were written after the death of Ibn Rush'd, so he used 'My Master' not in the context of a living mentor, but as an expression of respect for a philosophical body of writing that inspired his own. I believe that Thomas Aquinas was then similarly inspired by Maimonides. If you value the contributions of Aristotle, Plato, Socrates and the Neoplatonists like Plotinus, Porphory and Iamblichus, it is good to realize that this body of work had become lost to Western culture and it was revived by Jewish and Arab scribes who translated the texts into Arabic and Hebrew, which were then translated to Latin and Greek leading to the 'Renaissance.'

OK - I hear you! You are asking, "What have Muslims done for us lately?" In truth, not much!
Islam is now in a period of intellectual stagnancy as Europe was during 'The Dark Ages."

But the haters of Islam need to face some facts. As obviously Islam will not be wiped from the face of the earth, as you wish, what would you next hope to see happen to current day Islamic culture? Hopefully you would answer that you would like to see a great consciousness raising in the Muslim world. The FACT that verses exist in the Qur'an which advocate a society establish around given human rights mandates, that have NOT been abrogated as often thought, gives Muslim a legitimate base for this REFOCUSING on the humanitarian model of Islam.

As a hater of Islam, if you cannot wipe Islam from the face of the earth - is not what the Muslim moderates are attempting to accomplish the next best thing for ALL OF HUMANITY?

Truly, the emotional hate posts here only express psychological immaturity. If you oppose violence, then help us find a viable solution based upon ISLAM'S OWN DICTATES rather then asking Muslims to forfeit their culture and become Western clones.

You can choose to help society reach a more humanitarian age or just boo and hiss from the sidelines. Can we not engage together in a vision that will uplift all concerned? Any reality is preceded by a vision. We may not be where you wish us to be but we are trying with everything we have to bring about a refocusing on the innate humanitarian aspects of Islam.

Humanitarian Qur'anic verses (ayah)?
Please see excerpt from Dr. Mansoor Alam's article below:

So what should be done now? Should we simply close our eyes to the Qur’an and allow these latter-day rulers and Imams to regurgitate the same old sectarian-based Shariah that was developed under dictatorial rule and which tramples on the most basic values of the Qur’an dealing with universal human rights, that among these are: sacrosanct right of the sanctity of human life (5:32); inalienable right of the freedom of choice (2:256, 18:29); right of tolerance for other faiths (22:40) and absolutely no compulsion in faith (2:256); right to conduct state affairs by mutual consultation (3:159, 42:38); universal right of human dignity (17:70); sacrosanct right of equal justice for all (4:58, 4:135, 5:42, 16:90) including enemies (5:8) and no bending of justice for anyone (if the Prophet was not above the law (6:15) then how can anyone else be?); right to hold positions based solely on merit (46:19); right of personal responsibility and accountability (53:38); right of ownership of the fruits of one’s labor and no free ride for anyone (53:39). Are these Qur’an-guaranteed human rights (to all men and women) to be found in our current practice of Islam anywhere not to say of the holiest place in Islam, the birth place of our Prophet (PBUH)?

Who else could be more responsible then for damaging the sacred heart of Islam in the name of Islam, in the name of the Qur’an, in the name of the Prophet (PBUH) than the twin forces of Muslim dictatorship and Muslim priesthood?

The situation has degenerated to such an extent that if one were to mention that above human rights are some of the most sacred in Islam; that our Prophet (PBUH) lived and implemented these rights in society; that an Islamic society is supposed to be constituted on the basis of these core rights at its heart; then surely it will raise many eyebrows and may even invite sarcasm from certain quarters with comments such as: “Have these human rights anything to do with Muslims and Islam?” These reactions are not out of place considering how Muslim countries have been mistreating and even killing their own people in the name of Islam.

The world is judging Islam by our practice of Islam, by observing the so-called practicing Muslims. No wonder we seem to be fulfilling the prophecy of the Qur’an by showing to the world by our own actions that Islam is a failure, that Islam is false (107:1-7)! Our failure to live up to true Islam is being seen as failure of Islam. We may think we are good practicing Muslims and that we will ultimately have the mercy and the blessings of Allah. All this is fine but what about the Qur’an and its emphasis on universal human rights? Is the Qur’an only for reciting to achieve mercy and forgiveness, mostly for the dead? Or, should its human rights also need to be implemented in human society?

As a matter fact these values are under siege in every Muslim country. Can we expect to get anywhere when Muslim societies trample on these rights while putting extraordinary emphasis on rituals? What would be more important to Islam in the eyes of Allah: performing its rituals or implementing its basic human rights?

The Prophet (PBUH) is reported to have said that Muslim Ummah is like a body. When any part of the body is in pain the whole body feels it. That body seems to be in critical condition today. The only way to revive it is to go back to the basic Qur’anic values guaranteeing universal human rights and make them the foundation of Muslim society the way our Prophet (PBUH) did more than 1400 years ago when the rest of the world was living in barbarism and chaos as noted by many historians (e.g., J.H. Denison, Emotion as the Basis of Civilization). This is the real miracle of the Qur’an. This is the true Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) to practice (7:157).

Ahh, Victoria, for your eyes only-

And still you have not come to grips with the flawed foundations of contemporary religions (the basic issue of the On faith blog) and in your specific case that of Islam.

Founder, Mohammed- an illiterate, hallucinating Arab,

Biographers- literate but hallucinating (they also saw "pretty wingie flying talking thingies). They not only made belief in these "thingies" a requirement for all Muslims, they also added a militaristic, anti-female agenda to their book of death aka the koran.

The militaristic part of the agenda is still being pursued as noted by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics with most of this misery being funded by the third Axis of Evil aka Iran.

Mr. Chase,

The internet is one place where islam can be criticized, even expressing moderate animosity towards islam in any islamic country could mean imprisonment or death. Religions/Cults must be analysed, questioned and criticized only then does truth shine out. This never happens with islam because it is a cult.

MR CHASE- this happens in every blog that has a muslim panelist.

go and see for yourself- this one is very mild

Unfortunately, this blog is being ruined by many of the comments. There is at least one poster who posts the same 'cut and paste' for every blog entry. And someone else fails to notice that these particular 'On Faith' panelists were given a suggested set of topics concerning apostasy and jihad, and so of course the responses will reflect that. And many posters are merely plagiarzing and copy/pasting material and 'news' stories from other sources, and making patently absurd off-topic claims with no argument (such as the notion that one of the 3 main branches of Christianity is not a branch at all.) I notice that some blog entries, such as Mr. Colson's, have resorted to moderated comments. I believe its time for all of "On Faith" to feature that format--this is starting to look like a public access cable channel, not a reasonably informed and useful discussion.

Anonymous,

You have proved nothing I am not Catholic. Catholicism is not Christianity. Most Christians were persecuted and excommunicated from Catholicism a long time ago. That is not to say that there are not true Christians in the Catholics. The point is that when Muslims use force for the expansion of their religion they are living consistent with the example and words of Muhammad but when Christians do that they are in conflict with the example and words of Jesus. Jesus said to "turn the other cheek" and He did that all the way to the cross for the sins of the world.

It is not Christians who are forcing their beliefs on the world with the threat of bombs and murder. Christians are to preach the gospel and leave the results to God were they belongs. If people reject the Gospel God will judge them.

I noticed you failed to mention that Christians give more relief, food, and clothing then any other group of people in the world.

“Pray for comfort for these families and ask God to use the testimony of the slain believers to bring non-believers into the knowledge of Him. 2 Corinthians 1:3-7”

I don’t think anyone in their right mind should pray for some Christians who think they are better than other folks who must abandon their religion to adopt Christianity, another pagan religion.

With the exception of the Philippines and South Korea, Asia has been quite resistant to Christian evangelism. The missionaries found resistance from an entrenched Islam in countries such as Indonesia, Malaysia and Brunei. In countries with deep cultures such as India, China and Japan, the locals saw little need to replace their prevailing myths with foreign ones. Yet this lack of success have not stopped Christian missionaries from the conversion activities and causing much suffering among native peoples.

Our first story concerns the Mois, a native tribe of Vietnam of Malayo-Polynesian stock related to many of the native peoples of Southeast Asia such as the Dayaks of Borneo islands and the Aetas of the Philippines. From an initial estimate of one million populating the mountainous regions of South Vietnam, their numbers began to dwindle in the 1950's. This was partly due to these people being forced into hard labor by the French colonialists and partly due to the activities of the missionaries.

As an example of how missionary activities could lead to a dwindling native population is that of the Bihs, a subtribe of the Mois. In the 1940's one of the eleven evangelists who came with the returned French troops after the defeat of the Japanese, went to Boun Choah, the main village of the Bihs. Other missionaries had unsuccessfully tried to covert the Bihs before. One Catholic missionary managed a total of only ten conversions in five years. However the new missionary, a Mr. Jones, was not to be deterred. Upon studying the Bihs, he found that one of the principle acts of their beliefs was the custom of burial. Their dead were not buried at first, but left in open coffins on trees. After a couple of years, the bones were thoroughly cleaned, and after some ceremonial offerings, they were finally buried.

Mr. Jones used his political influence to force the French acting resident to suppress this custom. When the police arrived to protect him , Mr. Jones went personally to the trees, pulled down all the coffins on the trees and threw the contents, be they bones or decomposing corpses, into a common grave. The Bihs were then converted. Convinced that their ancestors have deserted them due to the desecration of their burial customs, the Bihs stopped producing offsprings. One local Bih explained that his people had resigned themselves to extinction.

Next on our list is Thailand. The success of the Christian mission there has been abysmal. 170 years after the arrival of the first Protestant missionaries, there are today no more than 300,000 Christians there in a population of 55 million. Buddhism here (as in Japan) has proven to be a bulwark against Christianity. The missionaries have thus turned to the hill tribes who are neither Buddhist nor ethnic Thai. One such tribe is the Akha.

There are nearly 70,000 Akha tribes people in Thailand, with many more in the neighboring countries of Myanma, Loas, Vietnam and China. The Akhas are the poorest of the nine hill tribes of Thailand. They live in conditions of poverty and are generally ignorant of the outside world. Some Akhas had taken to growing opium while some women have turned to prostitution. That the Akhas need help is not doubted, that they need missionaries is highly unlikely.

Matthew McDaniel of the Akha Heritage Foundation had chronicled the abuse missionaries had inflicted in the Akhas and their culture. Given below is a summary of his findings:

Many of these Christian missionaries to the Akhas come from the US with some coming from other Asian countries. The missions have been at work with the Akha for more than eighty years.

Obviously their objective is not to alleviate the social conditions of the Akha but rather to use the Akhas' poverty and lack of political clout as a wedge to force Christianity upon them. The methods are brutal. Honing in on the "weakest point" in a village, such as a family with problems with the elders, the missionaries would increase their converts. Upon reaching a "critical mass" of converts, the missionaries would claim the village as "Christian" and forbid all practice of the Akha religion. The net effect is clear, even Akhas who have not converted can no longer practice what has been an important part of their culture. Some churches have gone even further. They forbid the Akhas to practice any aspect of their culture. This includes songs, dances and traditional ceremonies associated with the harvest. In doing this the missionaries are depriving the Akhas of a basic right of indigenous people as defined by the United Nations.

The missionaries have little respect for the Akhas, their cultures and even their well being. One Baptist Mission, run by an American Chinese lady, resorted to broadcasting it's religious message over the public announcement system (loudspeakers) to the entire village, no consideration was given to whether the villagers like it or not! [To get an idea of how unpalatable this would be to the Akhas, imagine being bombarded by Osama bin Laden's preaching over the loudspeaker condemning the "crusaders" and proclaiming Allah's will]. This mission, well funded, had added another building on its location as well as two satellite dishes on its roof. Yet they are unwilling to provide economic help to the Akhas. Unable to provide for his children, one Akha man drank herbicide and committed suicide. He lived no more than 20 meters away from the mission compound. When asked why they didn't help in cases of such desperation, the mission replied simply that they "cannot help everybody, we are here to teach the Bible."

Like many cases throughout history, Christianity looks set to play a prominent role in the cultural extinction of the Akhas.
Papua New Guinea is an island situated at the edge of the Southeast Asian archipelago, just north of Australia. It has a modest population of 3.3 million. With 2,300 missionaries, or roughly 1 missionary for every 1430 Papua New Guineans, the country has the highest proportion of missionaries in the world. Has this proliferation of Christian proselytization lead to any spiritual revival? No, only more cultural genocide.

One example of the missionary attitude is that of Reverend Paul Freyburg, an American Lutheran, who said "I rejoice in the memories of what I have done and pray that it will continue. I don't believe that our mission destroyed much of any value." Rev. Freyburg came to New Guinea in the 1930's and, except for a brief interval during world war II, have remained there ever since. What did Rev. Freyburg destroy in his long missionary career? He held "renunciation festivals" at which he was called in to destroy "things of darkness". This of course includes, "magical objects" and also what he ignorantly described as "vegetable items". The former are irreplaceable works of arts and crafts by the natives. The latter are priceless herbal remedies and are important heritage of folk medicine. The natives were forbidden to perform any cultural dances and to observe their native festivals.

Fundamentalists missionaries are today at the forefront of such activities. One such mission, the Pioneers, works among the Ningram people. Sal Lo Foso, a missionary there, has no qualms about his activities. These include destroying the "haus tamburan", a "spirit house" which is the normal focal point of village life for the Ningram, and building in its place, a church. All forms of traditional songs and dancing were forbidden. Such destruction of the Ningram culture has no meaning to Lo Foso, for he believed that for the Ningrams to be "born again", they must make a clean break with their past.

The missionaries lack of understanding and unwillingness to try and understand native cultures have left much suffering in their trail. Australian administrators reported a case in which missionaries refused to baptized men because they were polygamous. The men started divorcing their "excess" wives, leaving the women and their children without much visible support in their society. Another man, with three wives, on being told that he can only have one, simply killed two of them, so that he could then-being a monogamous Christian-"go to heaven"!This rush by the natives to get converted has little to do with the Christian message but everything to do with the "cargo" they carry.

It was the possessions, the cargo, which the missionaries had in abundance that mainly impressed the tribal people. Inevitable they assumed that since the Christian God blessed his followers with cargo, they too would be rewarded for following the "Gutnuis Bilong Jisas Kraist." (New Guinean pidgin for the gospel) Papua New Guinea is now 94% Christian. Yet missionaries still arrive in droves. Why? For the simple reason that they are now importing their denominational bickering into the country. Thus an Anglican missionary reported finding leaflets circulated among his congregation by missionaries from the Seventh-Day Adventist church telling them that worshipping of Sunday is a sure fire step to Hell! In a similar manner, the New Tribes Mission (or NTM-for more info on this group see the section on South America below), tells the confused Papua New Guinean that the papacy is the antichrist. In fact some fundamentalists have taken to distributing the tracts by Christian publisher Jack T Chick, with cartoons showing, among other things, Catholic monks going through a secret passage way for an orgy with nuns!
Pettifer and Bradley summarized the situation in Papua New Guinea thus:

The future alone will reveal the cultural cost and the political consequences of importing the theological bickering of Western Christianity into an already divided society.

This is Jihad

Thanks for the link to compassdirect.
Very interesting website.
Religious people should explore it to see
the horror of religion-in-action.
In north America religion is in its Hallmark Theater
phase of sentimental sweetness,and has dropped
the fire and brimstone nastiness of the good old days.
That compass website shows unending religious
violence throughout much of the rest of the world,
and serves to remind us to oppose religion
whenever we can.

Great Post Beslan!

The Myth:

Islam’s Western apologists sometimes claim that since the Arabic word, Jihad, literally means “fight” or “struggle,” it refers to an “inner struggle” rather than holy war.

The Truth:

This is extremely difficult to reconcile with the Qur’an, which, for example, exempted the disabled and elderly from Jihad. This would make no sense if the word is being used merely within the context of spiritual struggle. It is also unclear why Muhammad would use graphic language, such as smiting fingers and heads from the hands and necks of unbelievers if he were speaking merely of personal development.

With this in mind, Muslims themselves usually admit that there are two meanings to the word, but insist that “inner struggle” is the “greater Jihad,” whereas “holy war” is the “lesser.” In fact, this misconception is based only on a tiny handful of extremely weak and unreliable Hadith.

By contrast, the most reliable of all Hadith is that of Bukhari. The word, Jihad, is mentioned over 200 times in reference to the words of Muhammad and each one is a clear connotation to holy war. By contrast, Bukhari does not contain a single reference to Jihad within the context of “personal struggle.”

Further Reading:

The Greater-Lesser Jihad Myth (from a Muslim Source)

Islam is a Religion of Peace

Dear Beslan Jones,

You make a very compelling argument. Thank you for your clear reasoning. None of the Muslim apologists on this thread will be able to refute your argument. So far they have ignored what you have said. If they do answer you it will be with flawed logic or they will call you names.

Nivedita:
You should know once and for all that Islam is color blind.Islam is Islam in America, ME or Indonesia-the difference is in the political systems:dictatorship in ME,Democracy in America.

May 10, 2007
More Beheadings from 'Peaceful' Muslims

This weeks main prayer request from VOM-USA concerns the comfort our brothers and sisters need in the Philippines. So much for the so-called "religion of peace".

PHILIPPINES Seven Christian Workers Beheaded - VOM Sources
The bodies of seven Christian workers were recovered in Parang town where they were kidnapped by Abu Sayyaf Muslim extremists. VOM sources report that the Christian workers' bodies were found in the jungles of Jolo by soldiers, days after they were seized while heading to a government road project. Pray for comfort for these families and ask God to use the testimony of the slain believers to bring non-believers into the knowledge of Him. 2 Corinthians 1:3-7

Calm Down,

How do you judge a religion?

Yuman beans are also prone to terror

You cannot judge a religion by observing only the followers.
In case you didn't know, human beings are rather prone to error.

Thursday March 29, 2007
NIGERIA: MUSLIM EXTREMISTS SET CHURCH ON FIRE
Fifteen more churches marked for burning following murder of Christian teacher.
GOMBE, Nigeria, March 29 (Compass Direct News) – Two days after the killing of a Christian teacher in this town in northern Nigeria, Muslim extremists set fire to a church building of the Evangelical Church of West Africa (ECWA) in the Chanchanya section.
The Rev. Rukun Gaius, 50, chairman of the Gombe district of the ECWA, told Compass that a large number of Muslim extremists went to the church on Friday night (March 23) and set it on fire, gutting the sanctuary.
“The Muslims came to the church premises at about 11 p.m. to set the church on fire,” Rev. Gaius said. “People around the area and some of our members who saw the church burning rushed there put it out, but by then much damage had already been done to the building.”

http://compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news&
lang=en&length=long&idelement=4816&backpage=summaries

I'll say this for the 9/11 homicidal maniacs;
they sure changed Islam's profile in the West.
Now Islam is suddenly everywhere all the time.
even here in the Washington Post religious threads.
How ironic.
It just shows that there's no such thing as bad publicity.
Maybe if we are nice to Muslims,maybe they won't blow us up.
Actually,they'll blow us up anyway,
one of these days.
Its a war the west can't win.
All who are not Muslims are infidels,remember?

Nivedita

Catholicism is not Christianity so you are wrong. I stand against what the conquistadors did also. Again, ongoing jihad around the world is currently demonstrating the murderous nature of authentic Islam.

Victoria: You are free to interpret what I say, seem to say, allude to or direct my supposed hatred toward. Have fun!

holy cannoli nivedita youre an angry person.

whats with all the insults?

i think youre projecting your hatred on others.

i dont think misspelling is exactly a reasonable criteria for the love or hate in a persons heart.

you certainly do draw negative connotations from nothing.

GEORGE BUSH PLAN 9/11-BUSH RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATHS

GEORGE BUSH PLAN 9/11-BUSH RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATHS

GEORGE BUSH PLAN 9/11-BUSH RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATHS

GEORGE BUSH PLAN 9/11-BUSH RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATHS

GEORGE BUSH PLAN 9/11-BUSH RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATHS

GEORGE BUSH PLAN 9/11-BUSH RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATHS

GEORGE BUSH PLAN 9/11-BUSH RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATHS

GEORGE BUSH PLAN 9/11-BUSH RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATHS

GEORGE BUSH PLAN 9/11-BUSH RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATHS

GEORGE BUSH PLAN 9/11-BUSH RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATHS

GEORGE BUSH PLAN 9/11-BUSH RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATHS

This is jihad:

Christianity was brought to the Philippines by the Spanish. Missionaries forced conversion on the natives destroying their native animist beliefs and local culture. That was then. After Islam came to the Philippines, Muslim missionaries are trying to wrest the souls from the Christians.

I think violence in any form should be condemned. But really, with religions that focus on making distinctions based on belief in a different God, as is the case with Islam and Christianity, war is bound to happen. If only both actually focused on telling their adherents that we are Filipinos first and then Muslims, Christians etc, and concentrated on economic development rather than saving souls, perhaps this situation would have never arisen. Finally, if God really exists, wouldn't God be unbiased and not judge based on how you worship or don't as long as you live a good life that helps fellow living beings while you are on this earth??

Murder in the Philippines
A brave pastor's unwavering faith.
By Jerry Dykstra

While officiating at a wedding on June 3, 2006, Filipino Pastor Mocsin L. Hasim received a text message: "Pastor, you will die today." He brushed it off. After the wedding, he and his 22-year-old daughter, Mercilyn, headed home by motorcycle.

Their bodies were later found near their motorcycle in an isolated area of Zamboanga Del Norte province on the southern island of Mindanao. Pastor Hasim had been shot 19 times, mostly in the back. Mercilyn was shot five times.

There were no known witnesses to the gruesome killings, but police suspect that there were three gunmen, possibly new members of the Moro Islamic Liberation Front, a Muslim rebel group with a long history of armed conflict against the national government. One of the pastor's nieces noted, "Some Muslim extremists in the area were inviting him to embrace Islam once again, but he refused."

Pastor Hasim, 47, had received death threats in the months leading up to the murder. During a gift-giving activity in one community, a Muslim approached him and told him to stop what he was doing or he would be killed. Despite these threats, he remained unmoved and continued his activities, even starting a radio ministry.

Pastor Hasim was affiliated with the Christian and Missionary Alliance Church of the Philippines. For the last ten years, he had been reaching out to the Kalibugan tribe, a mix of the Subanen and other Muslim tribes. They are considered to be the fiercest among the 13 Muslim tribes in the Philippines.

Pastor Hasim had shown the Jesus film in various places. He was bold in sharing the gospel to his own people.

Although the Philippines is known as Asia's only nation with a Christian majority (80 percent Christian and 8 percent Muslim), the southern islands—especially Mindanao—have been a hotbed of persecution against Christians, including the murder and capture of Christians and the bombing of churches. Rebels have terrorized Christians in the southern Philippines with the goal of creating a separate Islamic state.

Apostasy;

Whoever changed his religion,then kill him.Bukhari 9.84.57
Mischief is gravery/worse then slaughter 2.217
Those who turn back as apotates after the guidance(islam) was clearly shown to them,Satan has seduced them 47.25
Punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger,and main for MISCHIEF through the Land is execution 5.33

How can we interprete altogether ??

Jihad;

Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other.Allah shall bestow a vast reward 4.74
Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah...so fight the minions of the devil 4.76
The true believers are those only who believe in Allah and His messenger and afterward doubt not,but strive with their wealth and THEIR LIVES for the cause of Allah 49.15

Jihad means 'Holy War',nothing else.
According to islam,the 'true muslim' is obligated to particpate 'holy war' in 'Dar ul Harb',Land of War,for example USA.
Islam is the Cult of violence.
Islam is your enemy.
Islam is against to US Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Minaret and Headscarf(veil,black wrap,penguin) are the mark of 'ınvasion'.
Most of 'mosques' in USA within 10 or 15 years,will be the 'center of Taliban or Hizbollah'.

'but because people calling themselves Muslim had done it'.No,no,no,not correct.
They are NOT people calling themselves Muslim,but the ARE 'pure blood' muslims,not convert.
Because Islam is violence.
Islam is wrong.Islam is the Lie of bedouin,nothing else.

Victoria needs to be disciplined by the morality police. Cover your sinful face woman.

Victoria believes a whitewashed version of islam

The excerpt from the article below is about the response of the widow of Tilman Geske, a German citizen who was murdered with two Turkish Christians by five Muslims who met the three victims for a Bible study. This is what Jesus taught:

FAITH UNDER FIRE
Widow of slain Christian: 'Forgive them'
'She said what 1,000 missionaries in 1,000 years could never do'

Posted: April 28, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern

Editor's Note: This report contains a graphic description of the martyrdom of three Christian men.
By Bob Unruh
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com
In an act that hit the front pages of the largest newspapers in Turkey, the widow of a martyred Christian told reporters she did not want revenge against the Muslims who killed her husband and two others, according to a new report from Voice of the Martyrs.
"Oh God, forgive them for they know not what they do," she said, agreeing with the words of Christ on Calvary (Luke 23.34), according to a letter Christians in Turkey have written to the worldwide church, a letter released through Voice of the Martyrs.
"In a country where blood-for-blood revenge is as normal as breathing, many many reports have come to the attention of the church of how this comment of Susanne [Geske] has changed lives," the letter said. "One columnist wrote of her comment, 'She said in one sentence what 1,000 missionaries in 1,000 years could never do.'"

MUSLIMS MURDER CHRISTIAN TEACHER FOR DESECRATING QURAN[Nigeria]
Compass Direct News ^ | March 27, 2007 | Christianah Oluwatoyin

Posted on 04/05/2007 1:08:46 AM PDT by anglian

GOMBE, Nigeria – Christianah Oluwatoyin Oluwasesin, a teacher at Government Secondary School of Gandu in this northern Nigerian town, was in high spirits last Wednesday (March 21) as she made her way to school where she teaches government.

She was happy that after the final day of exams, she would be joining her husband in their hometown of Abeokuta, in the southwestern state of Ogun; a few months earlier, her husband Femi Oluwasesin had gone to Abeokuta to take a hospital position as a laboratory technician. The high school teacher’s joyous mood had been noted not only that day but the previous one, as she was seen taking pictures and exchanging pleasantries with friends and colleagues.

Soon her happiness would be cut short. Muslim students at the school, along with outside Islamic extremists, murdered Oluwasesin on March 21 over claims that she desecrated the Quran. They beat, stoned, and clubbed her to death, then burned her corpse.

As a supervisor of a class writing a final examination on Islamic Religious knowledge on that day, Oluwasesin was responsible for ensuring that students strictly kept rules and to prevent mischief in the hall, which had become common among cheating students, said Aluke Musa Yila, a fellow teacher at the school.

Musa told Compass that Oluwasesin had collected papers, books and bags before the exam in the all-girls class, in accordance with school procedures to prevent cheating, and dropped the materials in front of the class.

While noting that Oluwasesin was not aware the belongings included a Quran, a local newspaper reported she tossed the belongings outside the classroom. But Musa, who rushed into the classroom soon after students began yelling, told Compass that Oluwasesin had dropped the belongings in front of the class.

“Usually such items are returned to every student as each returns her answer script,” Musa said. “Soon after the bags collected by Oluwasesin were dropped in front of the class, one of the girls in the class began to cry. She told her colleagues that she had a copy of the Quran in her bag, that Oluwasesin touched the bag, and that by doing so she had desecrated the Quran, since she was a Christian.”

Soon after the student raised this alarm, other students in class began to shout “Allahu Akbar."

“It was at this point that I was attracted to the riotous scene in that class, and I then rushed there,” said Musa, who said he witnessed the murder of Oluwasesin by the Muslim students and extremists. “How could a teacher know that that there was a copy of the Quran in a student’s bag if this was not pointed out to her?”

He notified Malam Baba Musa, patron of the Muslim Students’ Society at the school. The MSS patron, along with three other school staff members, went to the classroom to try to bring calm, Aluke Musa said. In the raucous confusion, he managed to rush Oluwasesin out of class to the principal’s office.

“The principal left me and Oluwasesin in his office and also went there to calm down the Muslim students,” he said. “Knowing that the students may soon come to this office, I pushed Oluwasesin into the bathroom in this office and then locked up the office.”

By the time he had rejoined the principal and other staff members, he said, the entire school was engulfed in uproar. Muslim extremists from outside the school rushed in to join in the unrest.

“They destroyed school property and were demanding that Oluwasesin must be given to them to be stoned to death,” Musa said. “When we could not give in by releasing Oluwasesin to them, they started stoning us.”

“While we were thinking of ways to take Oluwasesin out of the school, the Muslims broke into the principal’s office and dragged her out,” he said. “The principal rushed there to save her as they clubbed her with an iron on the head and blood was gushing out from the wounded side of the head. He was pleading that they should not kill her, but they were insisting that she must be killed.”

Musa said that the Muslims overcame efforts by the principal and another teacher identified only as Kabiru to protect Oluwasesin.

“The principal succeeded in getting Oluwasesin up to the school gate,” he said. “There was a house near the gate, and he dragged her into the house, but the rioting Muslims went into the house and dragged her out again. This time, they clubbed her to death, brought old mats and placed dirt on her corpse, and then burned the body.”

Quran Unfound

Musa said he was baffled that throughout the unrest, the copy of the Quran supposed to have been desecrated was never seen, nor was it produced by the offended student.

“Whether the Quran was in the bag of that student, nobody knows,” he said.

Attempts by at least four policemen to quell the unrest had failed as they had been forced to retreat, Musa told Compass.

“The Muslims smashed the car of Oluwasesin, which was parked in the car park attached to the building housing the library, office and some classrooms,” he said. “Her car was set on fire, and soon the entire building went up in flames.”

Along with Oluwasesin’s car, the school library, and other offices near the parking lot were all burned, he said. When the Fire Brigade arrived, he said, Muslims prevented firemen from coming into the school by striking them with stones.

Having killed Oluwasesin, the extremists turned their attention on Musa, who said he had been advised to leave and had done so in time. The extremists set his motorbike on fire, he said, when they realized he had eluded them.

The Government Secondary School of Gandu has a student population of about 4,000, about 10 percent of whom are Christian, Musa said.

The school has been closed down since the incident. Principal Mallam Mohammed Saddique, who was injured in the melee, could not be reached for comment, but Vice-Principal Hajiya Hadiza Ali Gombe told Compass that the situation had been brought under control.

“There is no more problem,” she said, declining to speak further on the issue.

All secondary schools in the Gombe metropolitan area have been shut down indefinitely to avert a spread of the crisis, according to news reports.

Authorities have arrested at least 12 students involved in the killing, according to Voice of America. A five-member committee appointed by the state to investigate the incident is due to present findings in two weeks.

In February 2006 in the neighboring state of Bauchi, at least 20 Christians were killed and two churches were burned down by Muslims furious that a Christian high school teacher had tried to confiscate a Quran from a student who was reading it during class. (See Compass Direct News, “Teacher Accused of Blasphemy in Nigeria Disappears,” March 28, 2006).

The killing of Oluwasesin shocked the Christian community in Gombe and has left her church devastated. At Evangel Chapel’s morning worship service on Sunday (March 25), Elder Robert Simon said during a sermon that such trials “are the real tests for our Christian faith, and our desire to follow Jesus lies in such difficult times.”

Oluwasesin was also a Sunday school teacher and a member of her church’s prayer team. She and her husband had gone to Gombe on a one-year mandatory National Youth Service Scheme of the Nigerian government. After the service year, in which both of them excelled, they were employed by the Gombe state government, she as a teacher and he as a laboratory technician at a hospital in town.

Oluwasesin was the mother of two children.

END

Victoria: The very fact that you cannot even spell my name correctly goes to show how much hatred you have inside of you for me. And yes, I really think more so after your latest retort that you are one of those who "try" out religion since they have nothing better to do. The other fact is that you are unable to accept the inherent wrongs in your religion and instead try and use escapist means. My people have suffered and an ignoramus like yourself I do not even expect will understand.

Mohammed: You come from India too and therefore, you are Indian before you are a Muslim, I hope. I do not hate Muslims to answer your question. But yes, I have seen the virulent forms that have destroyed the fabric of India. It is that form of Islam that I do not particularly like. And instead of making excuses for it, try and bring changes that will help the religion move ahead with time and not regress beyond what it already has.

nivideta- dont apologize for how you are perceived, aplogoize for your actions or words.

i didnt say my people were wronged- i said "my people have suffered more deeply syndrome".

i take offense at people who judge others- period.

whether its my religion or yours.

this statement is completely uncalled for, off the mark- and just plain worng.

~~nivideta said~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Pamela Taylor is a woman who has grown up in a free society without any encumbrances. As also have you I think. And yes, that is why you will never realise what a lot of people go through, because you are a convert who lives in a country that is democratic and not an Islamic state."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
how on earth can you make the judgement that i will never realize what other people go through?

your unfounded assumptions are mountainous.

so its not necessary to make apologies that deflect your own responsibilty to the perceiver-

and follow it up with insulting judgemental subjective imaginary statements.

"

The Muslims first need to start local schools of religion and STOP IMPORTING RADICAL CLERICS FROM THE MIDDLE EAST. That's the game they play, that's how radical Islam has been getting a strangle hold on the Islamic church. Start local Muslim cleric schools that reject this Jihad against the west and violence agaisnt the west.

Secondly, we need to abandon the radical multiculturalism of our own far left that teaches that our culture and our religion must be abandoned and we must submit to intolerant radical Islamics who come to us from abroad. They are our enemies, they should be run out of the country. The radicals from abroad I'm speaking of.

The radical left wing religion of multiculturalism is nothing but weakness and national suicide. The radicalized Muslims embrace it and take advantage of it. It's where the intolerant far left from the socialist liberal democrat side and the intolerant far right from the Muslim side come together in their intolerance of Western values and western culture.

As a Muslim, I am astonished at how many of my faith feel they can spin themselves out of a tight spot.

The fact is the all contemporary scholars of Islam who matter to the Islamists, Maudoodi, Syed Qutb and Hassan al-Banna make Jihad (as in armed warfare) obligatory on all Muslims.

Why cannot Muslims simply denounce these three stooges and distance themselevs from the doctrine of Jihad, the same way they have distanced themselevs from the Islamicaly permitted practise of slavery.

If we Muslims start responding with a degree of honesty and integrity, we might not face the hostility we face everyday. That responsibility lies at the feet of those asked to represent us. Unfortunately, even the most well meaning American Muslim leader has not yet admitted that the problemwe face is the doctrine of Jihad and we need to state without hesitation. No More Jihad. It simply does not apply to the era of nation states operating inside a UN.

To bet your life on the existence of a supernatural world
is ridiculous. It makes more sense to see religion
as something we made up to help us
deal with the reality of death.
Its an easy sell,because people WANT to buy it.
People want to believe that they will never die.
So they believe it.
And it feels so good to believe it.
It feels wonderful
to really believe you have been saved from death,
by believing there's a God up in the sky who loves you.
But think about this...it's so infantile.
It defies everything we know about the world.
Death is simply death.We should just get over it.
And stop quibbling over whose God is the real God.
There aint no God.

Thanks, P. T.,
Your writing's well-worth reading.
The term that jars us at times has a positive connotation! in its original derivative.Wow!
Perhaps I could relate this to the concept of responsible stewardship or of the God-given task which ought to be humans' prime concern.
I like your discussion of battling selfishness and searching for ways to reach out others, as the contest, a contest taking two fronts: inwardly and outwardly. I like the concept of building character through struggle to recognize what does and does not contribute to quality of character, and battling to side with one's values rather than with one's own fallible tendencies.
That daily life is comprised of choices and that, in view of an optimal outcome and pleasing God, we must combat/struggle against human tendencies:
Now this is a consciousness whichmany adolescents & others need.

For such day-to-day triumphs as being congenial towards those who manifest negativity, or keeping the perspective
let's just make sure to render God credit.
To Him belongs the recognition for a heart and mind filled with the knowledge of His will and able through love and faith and self-effacement to conquer every evil or unwise tendency.
In this respect it's helpful to keep in mind of a goal of who one shall become, and towards such an end to contemplate what is great, good and admirable about the One Whom we worship.

All supernatural belief systems are no more than myths.
Allah is just as much a myth as Apollo and Thor are myths.Just plain old supernatural mythological make believe.
Are there any bloggers here who believe that the 9/11 bombers are in Paradise? The bombers bet their lives on it.
Logic tells us that they were brainwashed idiots to believe in 72 virgins and Paradise.
How stupid of them.Now they are just dead for their
heroics,just dead,not in any Paradise,and not with any celestial virgins.
Just d.e.a.d. dead.

Nivedetia:
I am not picking on you but I come from same country as you and have same experience as you. You have revealed your true understanding of situation and also you have revealed your hatred toward Muslims in general.

Bin Ladin and people like him are like you, who says “enough is enough and lets teach them a lesson”.

I hope you will realize what I have realized about you. Sometime self knowledge is hard to get and here you got it by just reading and writing.

Thanks, P. T.,
I did appreciate the discourse on daily jihad which acknowledges that there is a fallible human nature to overcome and that there are values of real importance, such that we might prefer suffering to the compromise of our values.
At any rate, as often as daily struggles to build one's character, to mature in wisdom, to (see through seeming contradictions to what actually wd)further one's faith, let us give credit to God Almighty.

Nivedita:
I think Madam completely understand Muslim adherence to dogma and thus taking pain to explain what is Islam and what is not.

People who come to Islam from other religion or background understand Islam better and also give more sacrifices then those who born in the religion.

Though Muslims follow many kinds of cultural and dogmatic practices but that should not nullify beauty of Islam. Like acts of Hindu radical in killing innocent Muslims in Gujrat will not nullify greatness of vedas or upanishad.

You should have understood it without my explanation.

This is Islam:

TURKEY: Young Muslims Murder Three Christians
---------
9-11-2001 Young Muslims Murder 3,000 people. Allah was pleased.

Whatever it takes to do Allah's work. Let's hear that part about Allah being God again. Something is wrong when the God that created the universe all alone needs people to do his work, wants people dead and needs murderers to do it.

Allah is not God. http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul says the being Moses made the deal with is Devil. The being in the burning bush couldn't get it's way without help from people either. That's the Devil. God can get anything God wants and will get it too.

Religion is EVIL. Muslim religion is EVIL squared.

Passover is the celebration of murder. Small wonder those who celebrate it are forever saying their God wills people dead but can't seem to get the job done without help from people.

Are you sure your God created man? Why can't your God kill those who don't deserve to live? Your God did send an angel to kill the firstborn son of Pharaoh or is that just a lie, the murder was a man and not an angel? Your God is a big sissy, no power, puny, sickly and those who faith Him have become just like Him, bushwhacking, backshooting, mental cases.

Want to be respected? Be respectable.

The Myth:

Islam’s Western apologists sometimes claim that since the Arabic word, Jihad, literally means “fight” or “struggle,” it refers to an “inner struggle” rather than holy war.

The Truth:

This is extremely difficult to reconcile with the Qur’an, which, for example, exempted the disabled and elderly from Jihad. This would make no sense if the word is being used merely within the context of spiritual struggle. It is also unclear why Muhammad would use graphic language, such as smiting fingers and heads from the hands and necks of unbelievers if he were speaking merely of personal development.

With this in mind, Muslims themselves usually admit that there are two meanings to the word, but insist that “inner struggle” is the “greater Jihad,” whereas “holy war” is the “lesser.” In fact, this misconception is based only on a tiny handful of extremely weak and unreliable Hadith.

By contrast, the most reliable of all Hadith is that of Bukhari. The word, Jihad, is mentioned over 200 times in reference to the words of Muhammad and each one is a clear connotation to holy war. By contrast, Bukhari does not contain a single reference to Jihad within the context of “personal struggle.”

Further Reading:

The Greater-Lesser Jihad Myth (from a Muslim Source)

Islam is a Religion of Peace

Why women can't be prophet in Islam:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=x25yE4KxFZU

Pam, you've got some explaining to do..

Religion, any religion, is a path to peace only if the practitioner is desirous of peace. Likewise, it can be a path to specific political outcomes if one is so inclined. If you want peace, choose any religion, any combination, or even no religion and pursue your peace. If you want war, you can easily do just the same. These are straightforward choices which have plagued men and women of every religion, ethnicity, and nationality. Muslims wanted war and they got war. Christians also wanted war and they got war. The voices of peace were a minority in both groups.

Victoria:

I apologise if I came across as being racist. Racist I am not, however I am certainly not going to quietly listen to rubbish that the so-called experts who seem to know anything and everything about India and Hinduism spout.

I may be wrong, but I think you take a lot of offense against people who judge you based on the actions of followers of your religion.

And no, I do not suffer from any "my people have been wronged mentality". I would prefer it if people including Mr.Hoffman would not give excuses for the inadequacies in his religion by citing cultural practices in India and China as being responsible for the horrible way in which a lot of Muslims treat their women.

I do not think that Europeans or indeed Americans are above this malpractice. I do not think you would need a lesson in history about this, would you? I just found it interesting that Mr. Hoffman cited India, China and South America as specifically being cultures where women are denigrated. I think that its not just an escapist attitude, but also racist. Why not say that yes, all over people are responsible for denigrating women irrespective of colour or culture?? And acknowledge for God's sake that the misinterpretation of Islam has ensured that it happens unchecked in Muslim society?

Pamela Taylor is a woman who has grown up in a free society without any encumbrances. As also have you I think. And yes, that is why you will never realise what a lot of people go through, because you are a convert who lives in a country that is democratic and not an Islamic state.

TURKEY: Young Muslims Murder Three Christians

In a gruesome assault against Turkey's tiny Christian community, five young Muslim Turks entered a Christian publishing office in the southeastern province of Malatya 18 April and slit the throats of the three Protestant Christians present.

Two of the victims, Necati Aydin, 36, and Ugur Yuksel, 32, were Turkish converts from Islam. The third man, Tilmann Geske, 46, was a German citizen.

Today the Turkish press reported that four of the five young men, all 19 to 20 years of age, admitted during initial interrogations that they were motivated by both "nationalist and religious feelings." "We did this for our country," an identical note in the pockets of all five young men read, Channel D television station reported. "They are attacking our religion."

I would just comment that all the faiths have suffered at the hands of one another at one point in history. The Jews were persecuted in Egypt, Christians were persecuted in early Rome, the Crusades lead to various persecutions from various religions.

So we are all the victims and the agressors NIVEDITA. Not just the British and Muslims.

And BGONE, I am not sure if you are crazy or genius, perhaps it is not mutually exclusive. But intriguing stuff you wrote!

In the words of Rodney King, "Why can't we all just get along!"

I would just comment that all the faiths have suffered at the hands of one another at one point in history. The Jews were persecuted in Egypt, Christians were persecuted in early Rome, the Crusades lead to various persecutions from various religions.

So we are all the victims and the agressors NIVEDITA. Not just the British and Muslims.

And BGONE, I am not sure if you are crazy or genius, perhaps it is not mutually exclusive. But intriguing stuff you wrote!

In the words of Rodney King, "Why can't we all just get along!"

FAITH IS FOR FAT-HEADED FOOLS.

Faith is what you need when what you believe
makes no sense.
If it made sense you wouldn't need to have faith.
But if it makes no sense,why believe it anyway?
It makes no sense.

This is the second racist comment Nivideta has mde about white people. On Mr Hoffman's post also.

Racism is racism Nivideta, no matter how justified you feel it may be.
You also suffer from the "only my people suffer deeply" syndrome.
I can only assume you come from an extremely impoverished and oppressed atmosphere to have such anger and overtly express racism against white people in an american forum.
I'm trying to find excuses for your blatant racism.
But wait, would an extremely impoverished person have access to a computer consistently?
Possibly not, in which case it is just racism and not an especially credible viewpoint.

All supernatural belief systems are no more than myths.
Allah is just as much a myth as Apollo and Thor are myths.Just plain old supernatural mythological make believe.
Are there any bloggers here who believe that the 9/11 bombers are in Paradise? The bombers bet their lives on it.
Logic tells us that they were brainwashed idiots to believe in 72 virgins and Paradise.
How stupid of them.Now they are just dead for their
heroics,just dead,not in any Paradise,and not with any celestial virgins.
Just d.e.a.d. dead.

CORRECTION:
My earleir posting may please be read as fight for "Women Rights" and not against it. Thank you.

Personally, I think just maybe so many Americans are attached to the idea that 'Islam is Evil' because this is the explanation they've clung to for otherwise-rather-incomprehensible acts which have traumatized them, not to mention the fact that all the ideas they've been inured to about Christianity and/or neoconservatism being 'Ultimately Right' ...simply aren't working out in practice.

The corruption, incompetence, and lies of our *own* government have really gotten so *big* that they're hard to look at, for one.

Certainly, while it's obvious that to most Americans' perceptions of Islam in the world, it's hard to reconcile the oft-quoted words of the Koran and the words of those who teach 'This isn't what Islam is about.'

Yet, in effect, this is what the interests of peace would *want* Muslim scholars to teach Muslims.

It's inherently problematic to set up *any* book as access to and commandments of the will of an 'Ultimate authority.'

Anyone can pick it up, whether they have a productive understanding of it or not, and claim that whatever they want to do isn't only sanctioned or excused, but even commanded by this authority.

It's unreasonable to expect people to abandon these books, (or change to other books) certainly not on someone else's say-so. People teaching their own co-religionists that terror and murder are *not* what these books, or our humanity, really demand, are in fact, the best hope we have for peace in the near future, along with, in America, standing by (and in some cases, restoring) our pluralistic, secular principles.

Both Christianity and Islam, are really, in some ways, very much based on *struggle.* And struggles tend to call for *enemies.*

America is based on life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These things call for *trust,* *knowledge,* *responsibility* and *friends.*

Now, you won't convince me that any of these book religions don't have systemic issues which can and often do lead to hatred, violence, and oppression, but those who wish to teach their peoples to see them otherwise need and deserve our support.

The world, in a sense, is involved in a great struggle of sorts, and that's against greed, blindness, unfairness, injustice, and hatred.

Right here in this reality which we all share, this book, that book, or no book.

GOING TO WAR OVER THIS?:

To Muslims the Koran is the very word of God, who spoke through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad: "This book is not to be doubted,"

---------It's a no brainer!

Devils, all supernatural beings are gods. Only one of them is God. The Koran is the word of one of those supernatural beings. They call him Allah. But which one is He?

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul identifies the God that Moses made the deal with. He's been give the religious name, Lucifer by Christian/Jew religious authorities. Is Allah also Lucifer?

All one need do is say the finding that the Bible is a hoax is not so. Then it becomes perfectly clear. If the Bible is a God's word that God is Lucifer. Is Allah a different God than the Christian/Jew God, Lucifer?

Maybe God has finally had it with Christians and Jews worshiping Lucifer? Did God send the angel Gabriel to inform Muhammad, create Islam? How can we know for sure?

It's academic. God is Almighty by definition. God needs no help from anyone to get what God wants. God wanted the universe. He did not call upon people to build it for Him but rather simply created it. Does Allah have "creator" power?

Now we need to decide if Allah is Almighty. The evidence says no. Example of the evidence, if God didn't want the WTC standing then God would simply will it away. Allah obviously doesn't have that kind of power, needs people to get what He wants. Therefore Allah is most likely Lucifer, assuming another conspiring angel like Gabriel isn't trying to take over hell. Maybe Gabriel has fallen too? God is the best job there is, right next door to minister of God.

So the question boils down to which fallen angel is Allah? War being a condition where two or more groups of people take license to send each other to hell right away, do Devil's, no matter which Devil is inevitable, jihad if you want Allah's technical term for war.

I must disagree with this PLs. No general wants sniffling born agains like, "pride of the Marines" Pat Robertson who suffered combat fatigue, a mental disorder, before the battle began, in his army. Devil always gets others to do His fighting but those who faith him hardest make lousy soldiers, jihaders. That much I can give her and cheer her efforts to try to save Islam from disintegration.

To Anonymous: That is your opinion and you are free to believe what you wish. I think calling someone a liar and say that God does not exist is your opinion. You have no proof God exists; I have faith that he does and, inshallah, will know paradise at his feet when I pass from this world. I would rather live in a world of Praise to Allah than in a world as a cynic.

There is no god named Allah,and Mohammed was a liar.
I say to the religiously deluded,come into the light of reason and common sense,and put aside such primitive thinking.There are no gods and no paradise to go to when you die.It's all make believe.
Primitive man in his total ignorance believed a god was behind everything that moved.He had no other explanation.But modern man knows better.There is no god,no devil,no heaven,no hell,no celestial virgins.
There is only this world.Make the most of it.

For Ms. Taylor only,

For Dr. Jackson only,

As with all pro-Muslim commentators especially those brainwashed in Islam, you missed the important issue i.e. the flawed foundations of Islam and all the flawed foundations of contemporary religions.

Please peruse the following followed by your own critique of the flawed foundations of religions:

A synopsis reiterated many times because of its importance:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian/Jewish/Pagan sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics with most of this misery being funded by the third Axis of Evil aka Iran.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus for an analysis of Jesus' life to include his illiteracy.

Bob Keene:

I doubt that there are Hindu terrorists who kill quoting the Vedas or the Gita. That joy is reserved for the followers of the Abrahamic religions alone.

Secondly, if a scorpion tries to sting you, what will you do, kill it or allow it to sting you? The reaction of the so-called "Hindu fundamentalists" that you people call, is precisely that, a move to protect oneself.

The dogma and the hatred that Christianity and Islam have spawned has created a reaction in Hindus. Trust me, after centuries of abuse at the hands of Muslim invaders and the British, I think we are finally fed up of it.

Thank you for a very scholastic opinion. There is nothing more that I will agree with you. The term “Jihad” has been literally used by barely educated Islamic imams (if they are at all, as Imamat itself has strict qualifications under Fiqah, and regrettably ninety nine percent of them do not meet these).
The Jihad, as you very clearly point out, is not going on rampage and killing innocent people. The Koran, very strictly, forbids such actions. The Jihad, borrowing from your vocabulary, is to fight against poverty, hunger, disease, women rights, and lack of education. It talks of rights of orphans and widows and not making more of them.
It is, and need to be moved in the direction where it may talk of restoration of human dignity.
There is a need for a paradigm shift in literal meanings of words of Koran. The Islamic jurists, scholars, and the people of wisdom and knowledge have to step forward to save Islam from the thugs hiding in the mountains of Afghanistan or wherever they may be.
Thank you for a wonderful job.

Where are the voices of moderate Muslims in this country? Less we think Islamists are the only radical religious practitioners in this world, what about those radical practitioners of the Christian, Hindu and Jewish faiths?
Religion should and must be a personal belief system and NEVER be permitted to govern the political world. Freedom of thought must be kept clear of political ideology. In order to remain as free humans we must allow others to believe as their God informs them and perform our political responsibilities for the common good of all humankind - not just those whose faiths that agree with ours.
Knowledge and education hold the best way to the understanding and acceptance of others- and to peace. Let's not forget that most of us come from the three tribes of Abraham!

So the prophet said jihad can be
with the tongue,the pen,the hand
and the sword.
If he was alive today,he would add
that jihad can also be by the bomb,
and by the airplane full of infidels.

Madam,

I think that you are a white convert to Islam, one who wasn't born into a conservative Muslim family say in the Middle East. Keeping that in mind, I don't think you truly understand the Muslim adherence to the dogma in Islam. Therefore, I don't think your justifications of the religion carry any weight.
Its very well to convert to a particular religion and then go out and defend it since you haven't really been at the receiving end of the negatives that the religion embodies.

There is no god named Allah,and Mohammed was a liar.
I say to the religiously deluded,come into the light of reason and common sense,and put aside such primitive thinking.There are no gods and no paradise to go to when you die.It's all make believe.
Primitive man in his total ignorance believed a god was behind everything that moved.He had no other explanation.But modern man knows better.There is no god,no devil,no heaven,no hell,no celestial virgins.
There is only this world.Make the most of it.

To Muslims the Koran is the very word of God, who spoke through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad: "This book is not to be doubted," the Koran declares unequivocally at its beginning. Scholars and writers in Islamic countries who have ignored that warning have sometimes found themselves the target of death threats and violence, sending a chill through universities around the world.
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and practice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority."

looks they are all doing the same thing, pretend jihad does not mean war, and as they get trounced on one board a bunch open up others and lie there about it.