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All paths lead to the divine precisely because the divine is all that is! As pandeism explains, God created the Universe, but God also became the Universe; nothing can exist that is not a part of God and no part of God exists apart from the Universe. However, pandeism also teaches the simple truth that no amount of worship will have any effect on God; our moral duty is to one another, not the abstract force currently bound up in the ground upon which we tread. Consider pandeism, for at the end of the day it is finally the most rational possibility.

soja, i dont know where you got your impression of my life- please stop telling me what my own lifes path has been.
or how it must form my thought processes.
im not a kid that i feel i have to explain myself in any way- also your questions border on confrontational accusation, so i dont respond well to being told who i am or what i think.

back on topic, you didnt address any of the posts i made-

apparently HL is still waiting for the validation of the trinity theory-

its alright, ive been around some pretty big brains who lapsed into the "mystery" argument.

ps i still love the franciscans

the church is pretty desperate for candidates for vocation

i shopped arounda bit, although i lived with and adhered to franciscan tenets, i settled eventually on the carmelites as my intended destiny

i guess it depends who your superiors are- i always considered franciscans kind of the hippies of the church- and i mean that in the kindest way possible- only for their sense of inclusiveness and non-judgmetal service-
carmelites are contemplatives, and very strict and also cloistered-

theres a big difference in their lives- one retreats from the outside world, the other embraces it-
it never did become necessary for me to fully retreat as i did it myslef in the mountains and that was nice-
my relationship with the church is long and spirited-but never boring

when i became muslim, my priest came repeatedly to my home to try and bring me back, the funny thing is he was born as a muslim- he was from nigeria- ( i knew several brothers from nigeria it seemed, by brothers i mean monks)
we had some very interesting conversations
from what i could gather, the end conclusion i came to was that there is little opportunity for education where he came from, and the church offered that to him.

people take vocations for many varied and different reasons
but its not really something you can take back- so i didnt take it lightly-

as for my zeal, that extends into all aspects of my life- not just religion- i think living itself is an art, and any thing one does one has to give the full force of their concentration and energy
to

zealots make me nervous

Anecdotal note:

Thus we find that the gospel of John deviates substantially from the synoptics. That he makes use of traditional material cannot be denied; but John did not faithfully transmit these traditions but used them to weave his own theology. Take for instance this saying of Jesus:

John 8:12
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

I ask the reader to imagine himself present in this scene where the Jesus was uttering this statement about himself. The scene would be unbelievable, and the prophet will look like one on the verge of insanity. The sayings put into the mouth of Jesus by John are too unrealistic for it to have ever been uttered.

Soja,

I know French and Arabic but I know nothing about the Greek language. I found the translation of John 1: 1 in this paper informative.

http://www.greeklatinaudio.com/john11.htm

Here are some excerpts form it and if you want to read more, please refer to it in the above link

…Does John 1:1 indicate that God and Christ (the Logos) are one-and-the-same?

An acceptable variation of the most common English translation of this verse is:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

An acceptable variation of the opposing English translation of this verse is:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was [a] god

The not-so-subtle difference between the above opposing translations is:

- The former suggests that Christ (the Logos) is God himself.
- The latter suggests that Christ (the Logos) is a god (i.e., NOT God himself, but one like God)

Obviously(!) the implications raised by these opposing translations of John 1:1 are enormous. One is, therefore, absolutely justified in asking: "Which one is correct?"

And, in actuality, the REAL point of contention here is the little [a] in the latter translation...DOES IT BELONG THERE? - OR NOT?

The complete corrected translation of John 1:1, with linguistic glue in place, now stands as follows:

in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and a god was the word.

For some of the episodes in the synoptics that do appear in John, the chronological order in John is irreconcilable with that given in the synoptics. One example is an incident that is given in all four gospels: the Cleansing of the Temple (Mark 11:12-19; Matthew 21:12-13; Luke 19:45-48; John 2:12-22). The story involves an incident where Jesus tried to chase the merchants and money changes away from their stores outside the temple. The merchants actually serve a useful function for the Jewish temple worship. The Jewish Law specified that, in certain cases, a worshipper could bring an offering of doves (Leviticus 12:8; 14:22). The moneychangers provide Jewish pilgrims from foreign lands clean money for payment of the temple tax (Exodus 30:13ff). Jesus was, for some reason, angry with these merchants and called them robbers (Mark 11:17). John describes the subsequent happening:
John 2: 15-16
So he [Jesus] made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the moneychangers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves, he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"
This event must have caused quite a commotion and could not have failed to produce unpleasant consequences for the Galilean prophet. In the synoptics, Jesus was dead within a week of the incident. John incomprehensibly placed this event in the beginning of Jesus' ministry; and made him preach for another three years with impunity! Thus where all the synoptics placed the incident near the end of Jesus ministry, John placed it at the beginning. [Guignebert, op. cit.: p418]
When was the gospel of John written? We know that the gospel was definitely written before 140 CE. This was settled by the discovery of a 6 cm by 9 cm papyrus fragment in Egypt. The fragment, now kept in the John Rylands library contains two verses of the gospel on one side (John 18:37-38) and three verses on the other side (John 18:31-33). The handwriting style on the fragment points to a date of around 110-140 CE. [Bentley, Secrets of Mount Sinai: p159
Cuppitt & Armstrong, Who Was Jesus?: p18-19
Wilson, op. cit.: p28 ] Thus 140 CE sets the absolute upper limit for John's composition.
The lower limit can probably be set by the passage in John chapter nine, it involves the story of a man born blind who was healed by Jesus: The Jews were skeptical and inquired about this man from his parents:
John 9:19-22
"Is this your son?" they asked. "Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it now that he can see?" "We know he is our son," the parents answered, "and we know he was born blind." But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don't know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself." His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ would be put out of the synagogue.
I have purposely italicized the last sentence to make it stand out from the rest of the passage. As we have noted earlier, around 90 CE the Jews excluded the Christians from synagogue worship by means of an insertion in the congregational prayer a curse on the "Nazarenes and heretics". Thus any Christian who attends the synagogue service would immediately be detected by his silence at this point of the prayer. While there were undoubtedly some early Christians who were harassed by the Jews before this, by and large the early Christians shared the same worshipping place with the Jews without much trouble. This is attested to by Luke and Acts. After the ascension of Jesus the apostles were said to worship continually in the temple (Luke 24:53). Furthermore the passage above clearly implies a systematic exclusion of Christians from synagogue worship that did not happen until the insertion of the "test clause".
The phrase "being put out of the synagogue" is repeated twice in John (12:42 and 16:2) and clearly points to a period of composition after 90 CE. [Wells, op. cit.: p126-127]
Added to this, external evidence also point to a late date. There is no reference whatsoever among the early church fathers- such as Papias (c60-130), Ignatius (d. c110) and Polycarp (c69-c155)- to the gospel of John. [Wells, op. cit.: p126-127] This, in my opinion, points to a date considerably later than 90 CE. Whatever that date may be, we can conclude that the most probable date of composition of the gospel of John lies between 90 to 140 CE.

Soja,

Your references to the book of John are no coincidence. Everyone who needs to know anything about Christian theology is instructed to skip Matthew, Mark and Luke and go directly to John.

The gospel of John differs from the synoptics in many substantial ways. It recounts stories about Jesus that do not appear in the other three. Its whole framework of Jesus' ministry also differs substantially from the synoptics. In the synoptics, Jesus ministry begins only after John the Baptist was imprisoned (Mark 1:14; Matthew 4:12), John showed the two prophets preaching together (John 3:24). While the synoptics timetable of Jesus' ministry can be fitted into a single year, John makes the ministry last for three years (for John said Jesus celebrated the Passover with his disciples thrice: John 2:13; 6:4; 11:55). The author of the book of John tried to liken Jesus’ ministry to the Torah reading. He knew that it takes three years to complete the reading of the entire Torah, so he saw it fitting to lengthen Jesus’ ministry to three years to add a side theme to his narrative about Jesus.

According to all three synoptic Gospels, Jesus was crucified on the first day of Passover, or the 15th day of the Jewish month of Nissan. The author of the Book of John, however, wanting to liken Jesus to the Paschal Lamb to his readers completely contradicts the first three Gospels, and maintains that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover, or the 14th day of Nissan. It is for this reason that only in John's Gospel does John the Baptist proclaim of Jesus, "Behold, the Lamb of God . . . ." (1:29, 36) In fact, of the four Gospels, only John ever equates Jesus with the Passover lamb. Because the Torah commands Israel to slaughter the Paschal lamb on the eve of Passover or on the 14th day of Nissan (Exodus 12:6), John's Jesus is also "slaughtered" (i.e. crucified) on the eve of Passover or the 14th day of Nissan.

To me, this kind of flagrant manipulation of events would only lead me to doubt the reliability of the accounts of Jesus’ sayings and proclamations as they are written in the book of John.

The main location of Jesus' ministry is given in the synoptics as Galilee. John placed Jerusalem as the principal location. According to John Jesus went to Jerusalem five times (John 2:13; 5:1; 7:10; 10:22; 12:1), while the synoptics only recorded one such trip of Jesus to Jerusalem. [Guignebert, Jesus: p27 Martin, New Testament Foundations I: p271]

Even the figure of Jesus presented in John is different, and indeed irreconcilable, with that presented in the synoptics. The figure of Jesus presented in John does not even sound like a Jew as, indeed, historically he was. The Jewish scholar, Hyam Maccoby (b.1924) sums this up very nicely:

In the synoptics' account Jesus is still a recognizably Jewish figure, sparing in words and human and concrete in approach; in John, Jesus has become a Greek: voluble, full of abstractions, mystical. [Maccoby, Revolution in Judea: p245-246]

Not only is Jesus presented in the gospel of John as a non-Jew, he is even recognizably anti-Jewish. In his debates with "the Jews" he called them the sons of the devil (John 8:43) and speaks of Jewish Law as "your Law" as though it wasn't his. (John 8:17) [Wilson, Jesus:The Evidence: p42]

His method of preaching is also different. Whereas in the synoptics he preaches in parables and in short compact sayings, in John the method is with long discourses. If one were to read the gospel of John only one would never guess that the parable was a common method in Jesus' teaching (John 20:2-6 being a rare example) [Livingstone, Dictionary of the Christian Church: p275]

In the synoptics we find that Jesus kept his messiahship a secret at the beginning only to reveal it after Peter's confession at Caesarea Philippi (Mark 8:27-30; Matthew 16: 13-20; Luke 9:18-21) but in John his special status is made known almost from the beginning. [Martin, op. cit.: p280]

In John, Jesus calls himself "The resurrection and the life", "the bread of life" (John 6:35) and "the light of the world" (John 8:12). There is no such utterance attributed to Jesus in the synoptics. [Davidson & Leaney, Biblical criticism: p266]

In the book of Mark Jesus had the perfect opportunity to teach the Jews the doctrine of the trinity but he did not. He just recited what they already knew and that is the Shema; which said:

"Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One" (Shema Yisrael Adonai eloheinu Adonai ehad) Deuteronomy 6:4.

Why didn't Jesus set them straight so to speak and told them about the triune God and how he is one of the three godhead.

Mark 10:28 One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" 29 Jesus answered, "The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." 32 Then the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that 'he is one, and besides him there is no other'; 33 and 'to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength,' and 'to love one's neighbor as oneself,' — this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." 34 When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." After that no one dared to ask him any question

Here in Acts, Peter, also known as Cefas, testifies that Jesus is a man and that God had done miracles through him so the Jews might believe him, but to no avail.

Acts 2:22 "You that are Israelites, listen to what I have to say: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with deeds of power, wonders, and signs that God did through him among you, as you yourselves know — 23 this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law.

Maybe you can tell me why would Jesus rebuke someone who called good and insists that there is only one that is good, which is God.

Luke 18:18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 20 You know the commandments: 'You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother.'"

I have but high regards for the late Pope John Paul II. He was a pioneer in interfaith dialogue and understanding; it is too bad the new pope is not as enthusiastic about seeking common grounds among the Abrahamic faiths like his predecessor was.

Going back to the topic at hand; you did not provide conclusive and irrefutable evidence from the Christian scripture as to the effect of Jesus’ divinity. You show no explicit statement from the NT, even from the book of John, from the lips of Jesus claiming divinity and equality with God. Because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, we would like to have a firm, convincing and strong proof to back such a claim behind the shadow of a doubt. Otherwise, you end up with a house of beliefs built on sand; and you know what happens to such a house like Jesus discussed in one of his teachings. To me, taking a person and equating him with God and worshiping him is tantamount to idolatry and a mortal sin, speaking in the language of a Catholic. I don’t need to tell you that YHWH is a Jealous god and strict when it comes to idolatry and setting other gods beside him.

You started you defense of the trinity by quoting the prologue of the fourth Gospel. First of all, the prologue is the Christology of John, whoever John maybe, and not Jesus’ teaching. He, also, believes that Jesus came down from heaven. The author is entitled to his opinion and philosophy to define what the word Logos means to him. Philo, Gnostics and the Greeks tried to explain what that word means and everyone has his take on the subject; why would John’s perspective on the matter be any better that the rest. Also, the translation is of suspicious quality; I am going expand on that later on.

We know from Genesis that God spoke creation into existence. He did not roll his sleeves up and started building the universe we see today.
In the Quran, everything is made by the command of God to be and it is. Not that God has a tongue, teeth and lips; it is a figurative of speech so we can understand the process. The following illustrates my point.

2.116 They say: "God hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. 117 To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.

Also, the word “logos”, if I may go on the limb here and say is mentioned and discussed in one of its meanings in the Quran. Jesus is spoken of as a word given to Mary and a spirit from him.

4.171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one god: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.

You don’t see us, Muslims, claiming that Jesus is god because God said that Jesus was his word. So, the claim that Jesus is god based on that line of reasoning is faulty and absurd to say the least.

You listed some verses form the book of John which you did not qualify with any explanation as to how they may used to prove you belief in the trinity. Rather, some verses prove the opposite to what you claim. Jesus was saying that he was sent by God, his words are not just his own, and that he obeyed God’s commandments like his disciples should.

Jesus said:

-Jesus said to them, "Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own.
- "I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

(His disciples refer to him as Rabi, teacher and master. Are you telling me that his disciples did not know who he was and you do? Why didn’t they call him YHWH as he is known to them given that they were all Jews.)

-“ Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, "Rabbi, eat something." But he said to them, "I have food to eat that you do not know about." So the disciples said to one another, "Surely no one has brought him something to eat?" Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to complete his work.”

- Then after this he said to the disciples, "Let us go to Judea again." The disciples said to him, "Rabbi, the Jews were just now trying to stone you, and are you going there again?"

- “Then Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine but his who sent me.”

- Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing what Abraham did, but now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.

- So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me.

- “You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I"

I am surprised you did not mention John 10:30 where Jesus was supposed to have said: “…The Father and I are one." That verse is bought up to prove the trinity. They mean that the Father and Jesus are one like a sausage. The same people who do that forget about what Jesus said in chapter 17.

John 17:20 "I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Here Jesus includes his disciples in the mix; so in effect, Jesus, the Father and the disciples are in each other and one. Jesus could have meant one in purpose not in numbers.

Victoria

Since you have been dealing with many Muslim bashers all along and seem to handle it as no more than an opportunity to communicate with non-Muslims, no matter how harsh the Muslim bashers have been in their criticism of Islam, my statement above advising you not to take any criticsm about Islam personally was completely redundant.

Dear Victoria,
Please contrast and compare the lives of our Savior Jesus Christ with that of the man you claim to be your prophet.

What truth can come of evil deeds? What fruit can come from a rotten tree?

Repent and return to those who love you and all humanity.

Pastor Colman

Prayer of Saint Francis:

Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.

Amen.
------------------

A different translation:

Lord, make me a channel of thy peace;
that where there is hatred, I may bring love;
that where there is wrong, I may bring the spirit of forgiveness;
that where there is discord, I may bring harmony;
that where there is error, I may bring truth;
that where there is doubt, I may bring faith;
that where there is despair, I may bring hope;
that where there are shadows, I may bring light;
that where there is sadness, I may bring joy.
Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort than to be comforted;
to understand, than to be understood;
to love, than to be loved.
For it is by self-forgetting that one finds.
It is by forgiving that one is forgiven.
It is by dying that one awakens to eternal life.

Amen.
-------------------------

'Make me a channel of Your peace' (Anthem of the Royal British Legion):

Make me a channel of your peace,
Where there is hatred let me bring your love,
Where there is injury your pardon Lord,
And where there's doubt true faith in you.

Lord grant that I may never seek,
So much to be consoled as to console,
To be understood; as to understand,
To be loved as to love with all my soul.

Make me a channel of your peace,
Where there is hatred let me bring your love,
Where there is injury your pardon Lord,
And where there's doubt true faith in you.

Victoria

On 18 April 2007 2:27 PM you wrote,

“as far as the assumptions made on my state of spirit and reasons for becoming muslim-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I'm Catholic, but I'm NOT at the stage Victoria must have been at one time in her life, when as an ex-Catholic nun disillusioned with Christianity, she was seeking meaning in other religions. I'm a Christian by conviction."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
you wildly mischaracterize me and my intentions and state of mind- also i am not an ex-nun, but an ex-novitiate.
theres a big difference.”

Since December 2006, when I joined the WP On Faith discussion, you have mentioned several times that you were a Franciscan novitiate (novice) for many years. I referred to you as an ex-nun based on my knowledge of the formation of nuns from my aunt who was a novice mistress for many years in her convent. At least in her order, it takes only five years to become a junior nun – in the first year one is known as an aspirant (which is about trying out if one is suited to religious life or not), in the second year as a postulant (introduction to the preparation of life as a nun) and three years as a novice (the bulk of learning to be a nun is undertaken at this stage). The first vows (profession of commitment) as a nun is made at the end of that period and the novice is then known as a junior nun. The final vows (professional of final commitment) are made a few years after one has been a junior nun. So your claim that you were a novice for many years confused me and still does.

For the purpose of discussion on faith related issues, it makes no difference whether you are an ex-nun or ex-novice of many years. The difference is no more than a couple who were legally married or merely lived in a de-facto relationship for many years. The point really is that you lived the life of a Catholic nun in training and service in a convent as a religious woman, groomed and shaped by the Franciscan spirituality, way of life and service to the poor for many years. You were not an ordinary lay Catholic as I am. That was the point I was trying to make. According to the personal information you have provided on this forum you became a Muslim by conviction eight years ago when you were around thirty eight years of age. Your life as a religious Catholic and your late conversion to Islam is significant for two reasons: your spirituality was shaped by Christianity for a long time, and now your zeal as a new convert to Islam should be understood in the context of your old zeal which made you want to join a convent and become a nun. I represent a belief system you rejected consciously, even though you followed it with a greater dedication than I did. This background knowledge is very relevant to the discussions between us.

In order to understand the spiritual tradition that shaped your life, I looked up the Franciscan order and posted some details here. It is helpful for me to know in what way you are different from a lay Muslim who is born into the tradition in another culture.

In what way am I supposed to have mischaracterised you or your intentions or your state of mind? I try to keep an open and critical mind while reading what you and others write and form my impressions based on them. It is a normal thing to do in a discussion. I respond to your comments sometimes, as I do with others, that is about all I do. I have disagreed as much with others as I might have done with you. As a believers one gets to read different views from atheists and agnostics about religion, as a Christian one gets to read different views from non-Christians, as a Catholic one gets to read different views from non-Catholics. It may not all be flattering. So what? No-one who cannot cope with disagreements or opposition should take the trouble to join a discussion board such as this, which is a place to thrash out different points of view. There are no winners and losers, all are winners because they get to learn more about the other. At least that is the way I see it.

So please do not take personally when I try to highlight my beliefs as a Christian by conviction. I understand fully that you speak as a Muslim by conviction.

http://www.franciscan-brothers.net/

“We Franciscans are challenged to live an integrated life through prayer, community, and our ministry to serve the poor, neglected and disadvantaged youth, the powerless, people in need, and the elderly. We live by our vows of poverty (living in simplicity), chastity (living in love with all), and obedience (living and witnessing the Gospel).”

We serve the poor, neglected and disadvantaged youth, the powerless, people in need, the elderly, persons with AIDS and people who ask us for help regardless of their religion or their social/economic background.

We serve the young and the old.

We are teachers, childcare workers, social workers, counselors, pastoral ministers, retreat ministers, religious educators, school administrators, and much more.

What does it mean to be a Brother?

Being a Brother is not a role we assume, but rather a lifestyle we live in all of our activities. To brother is to encourage, enable and support our marginated and powerless sisters and brothers. To brother is to proclaim, in work and deed, the God who calls us all to hope and love.

The Brothers of the Poor are challenged to live an integrated life through prayer, community/fraternity, ministry and the vows of poverty (living in simplicity), chastity (living in love with all), and obedience (living and witnessing the Gospel). It is not ourselves that we preach; we try to preach Christ Jesus as Lord and ourselves as His servants.

A Franciscan does not make himself. He is called by God to follow Francis as Francis followed Christ.

The prospective Brother comes to the Brothers of the Poor of St. Francis by what St Francis called “divine inspiration.” This inspiration was not received by a startling vision but apparently in a very human way: by a sudden attraction planted perhaps by a sermon, by reading, or by friends in the religious life.

A Brother is a religious, dedicated to God’s service by his vows, just as much as a priest or sister. He is a person who has heard and answered a call to serve God in a special way. The first men who organized into religious groups were Brothers, not priests. Countless men in the history of the Church have given the highest service to God and humanity as Brothers. St. Anthony, for example, the founder of the monastic life in the desert was a Brother.

Another famous instance of a Brother is found in St. Francis of Assisi. This great saint of the Church whose influence has been felt in every century since the 13th, was a deacon and not a priest. It is clear then that the Brotherhood is not a preparation for the priesthood, but rather a distinct calling in itself.

We are people who feel called to commitment to Jesus and the values of the Gospel. We are convinced that ministry within the Church is our privilege and our responsibility. We live as dedicated members of our community. And from that community, we draw support for our lives of prayer and ministry. We live a vowed life of poverty, obedience and chastity.

How do I know if I have been called by God to serve as a Brother?

The process of making a decision about your life by letting the Holy Spirit guide you is called “discernment.”

A vocation to the religious life and the discernment it demands is not an easy, cut and dried task. Francis spent many hours in the caves near Assisi struggling to give form and shape to an inner vision.

It need not happen in one single event, but it happens rather as a process.

Slowly, as his dream became more definite and his calling stronger, he began to take some risks. He told a friend of dreams, one who would be a companion and stand at the mouth of the caves waiting for Francis to reemerge. He began “trying on” the life of the Gospel he would eventually embrace. Francis journeyed to Rome and exchanged his own clothes with those of a beggar. It was a simple thing, perhaps, but that exchange of clothing was an exterior sign of the inner transformation going on within Francis.

From the writings of Francis and the stories about him, we know that his discernment did not end when he embraced the life of the Gospel. He was constantly seeking out the Lord’s will in his life. He gently pursued the dream.

Do not force your dream, but be attentive to it.

Take along a friend with whom you can share your hopes and doubts about your future. Above all, be a person of prayer who listens as the Lord speaks to your heart. When the time feels right, take the risks you sense you are called to take. It is in the responding and the reflection on the response afterward that the will of the Lord becomes clearer. Know, too, that a vocation to the religious life and the Franciscan Order is a growing, changing thing.

As you continue to discover your unique calling, do not be afraid to dream. A calling to the religious life is not just a job. In a very real sense, it is something you slowly “fall in love with.” It calls you to be more than you ever thought you could be or think you can be right now. But just like Francis, if the dream is authentic and you are generous, open and honest in your response, the Lord has a way of transforming you, of making the impossible possible. Continue to listen -- and continue to pray!

Here are some practical things that may be of help to you.

• Listen

Listening is a large part of any decision.

Relax. Think clearly. Learn to understand your feelings and to listen to your deepest self. Discovering God’s will for you is a process.

You want to make a decision about your life that is going to bring you happiness and the Lord has created you to be happy. The two of you are not working at cross-purposes, but for the same goal.

Compose

Writing in a Journal is a personal tool for growth, for personal integration, and for the development of awareness, as well as for getting in touch with the flow of one’s life. As a tool it should be used when needed.

Some general ideas about writing in a journal include the following:

1. Always date the entry: when you re-read the journal, the date may be important.

2. Always write for yourself; never write with the intention of showing the journal to anyone else. Although you may later want to share it with someone close to you, do not write with the intention of doing so.

3. Always write descriptively and nonjudgementally; just write what you feel regardless of whether it looks “right” or “wrong.”

4. Don’t erase. If you wish to add or nuance, add but don’t erase.

5. After you have finished an entry, re-read it, then add how you feel now that you have re-read what you have written.

• Select

None of us can go it alone. If we are interested in advancing in our Christian journey, we may benefit from enlisting a guide.

Select someone you feel is farther along the road and heading in the direction you wish to go. This friend is someone you can comfortably talk with, someone who will listen. This guide is someone whose experience and empathy allow you to tell your story, look at yourself honestly and gain some direction.

Through such a relationship, a person comes to know him/herself better, to realize some of the possibilities ahead and some ways to proceed. A certain amount of stagnation can be avoided, pitfalls side-stepped, self-deception surfaced, and self-doubt overcome.

• Reflect

Many people find meditative reading to be a very helpful way to gain deeper insight into themselves. This is not textbook reading; it is slow, thoughtful, deep reading. The book or material you select for meditative reading should be rich in content. The important thing about meditative reading is not to hurry or to attempt to read too much at one time. Some people use meditative reading as a method of prayer. By taking time to relax and to be reflective, they find that this type of reading can put them in the “mood” for a dialogue with God.

• Pray

Prayer means the opening of your mind and heart to the mystery of God’s role in existence, and especially in your personal existence. To pray means to be open to God -- to be in the presence of God.

Here are some thoughts about entering into prayer:

1. Find a suitable place -- free from distractions.

2. Realize that harmony of body and spirit is important; take a peaceful, relaxed position.

3. Spend a few moments quieting yourself as you come into the presence of the Lord, believing He is with you.

4. Be a receptive listener -- prayer is primarily listening, not talking to God.

5. Reflect on what God has said to you.

6. Respond in simplicity and honesty.

• Ponder

Ask yourself -- what is most important in your life?

How interested are you in your own growth, the growth and well-being of others?

Are you looking for creative and meaningful ways to live your life and to help others live?

Are you interested in an apostolic mission realized in the realm of human services, especially to the poor and neglected?

Are you interested in an apostolic mission that stands in solidarity with the needs of the poor, the powerless and the disadvantaged?

St. Francis of Assisi (1181-1226)

Many great saints have left us discourses of their journey to God -The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius, The Ascent of Mt. Carmel by St. John of the Cross, The Interior Castle of St. Teresa of Avila to name a few. Francis, however, speaks to us by his life rather than by his writings, and his wholehearted, enthusiastic practicality is a challenge to us today as we search for meaning and fulfillment in our way to God.

Francis did not live in a monastery but among ordinary men and women, and in that world, he sought and found his God. The search was often through dark ways and demanded often radical changes of direction but he sought and found his God through an incarnational approach - God was his loving Father and all he had was gift; Christ was his Brother and the Spirit of that love lived in him. So his approach was Trinitarian, not static. Again Francis was practical - the Crib, the Cross, the Eucharist were his way to God, and finally his relationship to the Triune God led to an intimacy and familiarity with all wonders of creation so that he could address them as Brother/Sister - all were members of the one family.

So Francis did not speak about spirituality so much as he lived his prayer - as Celano (an early biographer of Francis) said "He became prayer" and in the intimacy of his relationship with God he would have his followers join him. "Hold back nothing of yourself for yourself, so that he who gives Himself totally to you may receive you totally."

St. Francis was born in the Italian town of Assisi, eighty miles north of Rome. Rich, likeable, daring, he was plainly headed for a life of adventure. Already in his teens he was a leader. He was usually good for a joke.

Francis burned to be a knight, a brave and famous fellow pursuing adventure. But when he was nineteen, his career got off to a sour start. In one of the constant little wars between cities, his home town lost to neighboring Perugia. Francis spent the next year a cheerful prisoner of war, livening the days for his cell mates with song and story.

The next winter he became very sick. As he lay on his back in pain and exhaustion, it occurred to him that his life was pretty silly and useless. But soon came another chance in the army, this time on a much grander scale. His father, a rich cloth merchant, outfitted him lavishly, the best horse, the finest sword, the richest silks.

One night he had a dream. In his own home he saw not his father’s bolts of cloth, but the shining armor of knights. He heard a voice say “All this will belong to you and your warriors.”

An attack of fever struck him again, when the journey was almost finished. Again the voice, “Where are you going” “To Apulia, to be a knight” he said. “Tell me, Francis, who can benefit you most, the Lord or the servant?” “The Lord,” Francis said. “Then why do you desert the Lord for the servant, The Prince for his slave?” Francis said, “Lord, what do you wish me to do?” “Go back home. There it shall be told you what you are to do. The vision must be understood in another way.” Francis went home.

He spent the next year fighting for holiness. He would go with a friend to a cave outside the city and spend long hours trying to pray. There were no sweet visions. God was testing him, forging the steel. Only gradually would he learn to taste the sweetness of prayer.

Trying to be like Christ, and seeing Christ in everyone led Francis to the poor. For if anyone needed kindness, and if anyone mirrored the life of Christ on earth, it was the poor. Francis had always been generous to them. But it was too easy to give an alms and go back to his comfortable home. He wanted to be one of them.

He had his chance while visiting Rome. There was a crowd of beggars, loud, dirty, repulsive. He took one of them aside to a secret place, asked him to exchange clothing , and soon found himself clothed in rags, jostled in a crowd of starved and sweating bodies, his arms out stretched in humiliating beggary.

And he loved it. Here is the central point of his life, and we must not miss it. Francis was not poor because he liked to be poor, but because Christ was poor. Because Christ said, “Blessed are the poor in spirit.” The followers of Christ needed to escape the lust or money and its power, so that they could be free to love God.

Francis’ love for beggars and lepers was neither blind not sentimental. They were the brothers and sisters of Christ. Francis’ greatest desire was to show Christ... the human, loving, crucified Christ,to poor, ordinary people. In turn, he saw Christ in them.

St. Francis is famous for his love of nature. For him, nature showed the footprints of God’s passing. A flower reflected his beauty, the sun was a shadow of his brightness, the mountains were the strength of his arm. The sunrise reminded his of the rising of Christ.

The song of a bird, the scurry of a squirrel, the laughter of water, all were signs pointing to the fatherly presence and provident love of God. Nature lifted its unthinking prayer to God just by being what it was. How much more, then, should men and women, with minds to see and hearts to love, praise their Father?

Francis was a troubadour of the love of God, not a preacher of fire and brimstone. His own “message” was simple: God has showered an unbelievable love on us, through Christ our Crucified Brother. We must send this love back through Christ, by loving His brothers and sisters.

Francis of Assisi is not for everyone. Even many saints would not be comfortable with him. He appeals primarily to the heart. He would never be accused of being lukewarm, for he lived his life afire. Francis found God in the concrete. He led a life of radical devotion to God and to service of other people especially poor people. Typically, Francis attracts the common folk more than the scholar.

Francis found his inspiration in the Gospels. More precisely, he found it in the stories in which Jesus walks among the people of the streets and talks with equal ease to children, tax collectors, lepers, foreigners, and Pharisees. Francis experienced the Good News enfleshed in poor people and in needy people, in fig trees and in mustard seeds, in sheep and in goats. In short, Francis practiced an incarnational, sacramental spirituality. As his followers, we are attempting to do the same.

Francis wanted his followers to be in the marketplace, in the streets, and in the towns. Indeed, he wanted his followers to be in the thick of things, building bridges to God. The statement “For it is in giving that we receive”, from the Peace Prayer, could serve as a summary of Francis’ way of life. In the spirit of Francis, Franciscans are trying, in today’s work, to be bridge builders.

http://www.osfsyr.org/vhowto.html

How to become a Sister of St. Francis

The Discernment process:

• An applicant must be at least 18 years (to 40 years) of age, a high school graduate and in good physical and mental health.

• An applicant will meet with the Vocation Minister for approximately a year.

• An applicant meets with other Sisters of Saint Francis, sharing their lifestyle.

• Attends get-acquainted activities; retreats, workshops, social gatherings and celebrations with other interested women.

• Continues to live independently; prayerfully considering God's invitation while in dialogue with the sisters.

The Formation process:

As a laywoman the applicant (now considered a candidate) lives within our Franciscan Community for 6 months to 2 years. The candidate is employed part time and participates in workshops and classes. The candidate is then received into the community as a novice. This is a time to deepen her relationship with God while both learning and experiencing the Franciscan way of life as lived out in this community. The first year of the novice's time with the community is spent living in the formation house. The second year provides ministerial experiences and an opportunity for living outside the formation house with other sisters. After the time of "novitiate" a woman must take temporary vows for at least 3 years before final profession with this religious community.

Franciscan Sisters commit themselves by profession of vows to:

Manifest God’s universal compassion through inclusive non-dominating relationships of love.

Trust in God’s providence and live in a manner that affirms the right of all to a just share of earth’s resources.

Discern together the voice of the Spirit which has called us to be one in our diversity.

We open ourselves to a life of continued conversion in response to the call of the Gospel.

Identify with the victim, the poor and
the marginalized in seeking a peace built on justice.

Reverence creation, acknowledging the right of all God’s creatures to enjoy its blessings.

Address the need within ourselves for repentance, forgiveness and healing while promoting a message of reconciliation.

http://www.franciscansisters.org/english/jpic/declaration_for_peace.htm

PREMISE:

At the heart of our charism as Franciscan Sisters of the Poor lies a vibrant and passionate love for poor and suffering humanity. The values of justice, peace and the integrity of creation inherent in our charism impel us to live fully the ideals we have received from Saints Francis and Clare of Assisi and Blessed Frances of Aachen.

"May the peace you announce with your lips be even more abundant in your hearts. Do not provoke anyone to anger or to scandal. May everyone be attracted by your lived example of meekness, peace, goodness and harmony. This is your vocation: to heal the wounds, to mend the broken, to call back the lost."

(Excerpt from "Legend of Three Companions," Chapter IV, #58)Like St. Francis and in accord with the gospel and the teaching of the Church, we strive to become effective agents for promoting peace and understanding, opposing prejudice, war and oppressive forms of nationalism.

(Constitutions and Directory 47, 47.1 of the Franciscan Sisters of the Poor)
As Franciscan Sisters of the Poor, we are called to give hope to humanity, to prevent and to heal the wounds of poor and suffering humanity, and to promote forgiveness as the main route to peaceful living among individuals, groups and peoples. As Christians, we feel responsible to work for social justice and peace in collaboration with others, especially the Franciscan family. With the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, both nuclear and otherwise, we are convinced that the principles of the just war theory no longer apply.

Deeply concerned for the victims of war, we beg those who have the power to stop war, to do so, and to seek a solution to conflict through dialogue. John Paul II said: war still is "the most barbaric and ineffective way to resolve conflict."
Therefore, we proclaim this DECLARATION FOR PEACE and we publicly commit ourselves to:

respect every person so that she/he may live in dignity, according to her/his culture and religion.

educate people to mutual respect in order to promote peace and solidarity among peoples and nations.

be a voice for the voiceless so that those unjustly treated may receive justice.

heal the past wrongs and present errors and prejudices of ourselves and others by overcoming selfishness, hatred and violence.

dialogue among ourselves and with others, with simplicity and meekness, focusing on what unites us and recognizing that our neighbors' diversity can be an opportunity for our growth in understanding.

join in the cry of poor and suffering humanity, in solidarity with those who do not return violence for violence, in order to bring about hope for justice and peace.

influence leaders of the nations, through the means available to us, to be sensitive to the common good and to promote respect for planet earth upon which we all depend for life.

support Interfaith dialogue through prayer and action, in order to overcome the prejudice and misunderstanding that can lead to conflict.

CONCLUSION

True love lies in mutual esteem and deep respect which do not have their roots in emotion. The following three points are essential for a life in mutual love: we must give, forgive and be able to give in. (Blessed Frances Schervier)Let the love you have in your hearts show outwardly in your deeds. If we have lived ...we shall, by very little effort, leave others a noble example and gain the prize of eternal happiness.

(Testament of St. Clare, #18 and 6, FRANCIS AND CLARE: THE COMPLETE WORKS)May God bless us and bring our efforts to completion.

The Congregation of the Franciscan Sisters of the Poor
133 Remsen Street, Brooklyn, N.Y. 11201 - U.S.A.

still nowhere does this say that jesus(ata) called himself god- or identified himself as god-

"Don’t you believe that I am in my Father, and that the Father is in me?"

"Rather, it is the Father, living in me who am doing His work. Believe in me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me;"

"And I will ask the Father and the He will give you another Counsellor to be with you forever – the Spirit of truth"

".I am not alone for my Father is with me. I have told you these things so that in me you may have peace."

"He looked towards heaven and prayed: “Father, the time has come,"

"the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth"

"And now Father, glorify me in your presence"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

how can this be interpreted as a man declaring himself equal with god?

these are the proofs of the trintiy?

i know them well-

and there is no mention whatsoever of the counsellor (comforter-)being a part of the godhead-

`````````````````````````````
PARACLETUS

Paraclete, Comforter (L. Consolator; Greek parakletos), an appellation of the Holy Ghost. The Greek word which, as a designation of the Holy Ghost at least, occurs only in St. John (14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7), has been variously translated "advocate", "intercessor", "teacher, "helper", "comforter".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from the Catholic Dictionary

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"But I tell you the truth: It is to your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counsellor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you…I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you…I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father…"

who is it that came and spoke not on his own, but only what he hears?
and guides all into truth?
and takes what is Jesus'(ata) and makes it known to all?

does the comforter speak?
or take what is Jesus' and make it known?

Muhammad the Prophet(pbuh) fulfilled these prophecies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Isaiah-40:13 Who has directed the Spirit of Yahweh,
or has taught him as his counselor?

40:14 Who did he take counsel with,
and who instructed him,
and taught him in the path of justice,
and taught him knowledge,
and showed him the way of understanding?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
this indicates the self sufficiency of god, who does not need men to counsel or instruct him-
or co-rule

and god asks-
"40:18 To whom then will you liken God?
Or what likeness will you compare to me?

40:25 “To whom then will you liken me?
Who is my equal?” says the Holy One.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

does this in any way sound like god is telling of his co-equal coming to earth in his stead?

or a confirmation of his oneness?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"40:28 Haven’t you known?
Haven’t you heard?
The everlasting God, Yahweh,
The Creator of the ends of the earth, doesn’t faint.
He isn’t weary.
His understanding is unsearchable.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

didnt jesus(ata) faint and become weak on the cross?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Then Jesus’ disciples said,
‘Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
this seems to indicate that the disciples were spoken to clearly at this point- that the words about the comforter jesus(ata) was giving were plain and understandable.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Jesus answered. ..I am not alone for my Father is with me."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

again another distinction made between jesus(ata) and the father

there was no place in your post where you explained the trinity-

it isnt in this scripture-
perhapsyou care to elaborate

HL

I wish to emphasise as a Catholic, that the present Pope Benedict, extended his hand to Muslims officially and encouraged Christians and Muslims to focus on what we have in common, namely worship of the One God.

Relevant selected verses from the Gospel of John (as mentioned in an earlier post) to your question if there is anything in the New Testament (including words of Jesus) for the Christian claim that Jesus is not a Prophet but the Son of God, and to understanding concept of Trinity:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

“There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

“He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognise him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God – children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

“The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth… For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.” (John 1:1-14, 17, 18)

“Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him. Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father”? Don’t you believe that I am in my Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me who am doing His work. Believe in me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.” (John 14: 6-11)

“If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father and the He will give you another Counsellor to be with you forever – the Spirit of truth…All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things, and will remind you of everything I have said to you. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sess him nor knows him. But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me any more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live… Whoever has my” commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me.”(John 14:15-21)

“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in His love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no-one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I have called you friends for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you…This is my command: Love each other…Remember the words I spoke to you: No servant is greater than his master’. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also…When the Counsellor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who goes out from the Father; He will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.” (John 15:9-17, 20, 26, 27)

“But I tell you the truth: It is to your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counsellor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you…I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you…I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father…Then Jesus’ disciples said, ‘Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God…You believe at last! Jesus answered. ..I am not alone for my Father is with me. I have told you these things so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” (John16:7, 12-15, 28, 31, 33)

“After Jesus said this, He looked towards heaven and prayed: “Father, the time has come, Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted Him authority over all people that He might give eternal life to all those you have given Him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” (John 17:1-5)

Victoria

I will get back to you soon with the response to four lengthy posts you addressed to me.

HL

Thanks for your post.

I did not sidestep any argument. I pointed out to the fact that my Hindu ancestors were not converted on the basis of the Bible, which was written long afterwards, but directly by an Apostle Thomas who had lived with Jesus Himself. The conversion took place only nineteen years after the Resurrection of Jesus. Thomas was the only Apostle who would not believe in the Resurrection until after he had felt the wounds of Jesus, he was the Apostle who exclaimed, “My Lord, and My GOD!” on being given the proof he asked for. Does a faith tradition such as that need verification from different translations of the Bible if the message came directly from an Apostle? Wouldn’t it be the same as asking a Muslim who was converted directly by one of the many followers of Prophet Mohammad who was with him during his lifetime, if they were aware of the different interpretations possible of the Quran, Hadiths and Sira, which was written long afterwards? I meant to emphasise that my faith tradition doesn’t require verification with the ‘inerrant’ word of God, because it was brought by the person who had been with Jesus. The faith tradition would have been just as valid if my Hindu ancestors had incorporated their Christian belief in Jesus with the tradition in Hinduism of devotion to a personal God, in terms of practice of the religion. Unfortunately though Nambudiri Brahmins practice the most ancient form of Vedic religion which had less room to accommodate their Christian belief, than say the spirituality of the Bhagavad Gita, with the concept of devotion to a personal God, could have done.

Please view the two links (I could provide more but two should suffice) provided, with a little more information on Christianity in Kerala than you might have been able to glean from Wikipedia, which as you are aware, despite being a good source of basic information is not considered authoritative. At any rate, it is good to find additional information than that given in Wikipedia, considering information in Wikipedia merely serves as introduction to the topic.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14678a.htm

http://www.indianchristianity.com/html/Books.htm

The fact that I’m Christian by heritage doesn’t mean that I can’t be a Christian by conviction. Most people the world over follow their religion based on their heritage, and that holds good as much for Muslims as anyone else. Only very few people feel the need to invest time in acquiring knowledge about their respective religions which leads them to accept their religion by conviction. It may be that a few like Victoria may choose to reject their religion in the process. But rejecting one’s religion in the process of trying to accept it consciously is not the rule. Victoria’s spiritual journey – from being a Catholic novice (noviciate) for many years, to practising other religions, to becoming a Muslim by conviction - is her unique spiritual journey. Becoming a Muslim by conviction is not the inevitable outcome of every Catholic who tries to accept their faith consciously or no longer finds spiritual meaning in Christianity. I have met plenty of white Westerners in India who were disillusioned with Christianity and sought meaning in Buddhism or Hinduism. Some returned to Christianity, others became Hindus or Buddhists, or found a synthesis of Buddhism or Hinduism with Christianity, some were happy to practice the spirituality of Buddhism without the religious aspect etc. There are all kinds of variations possible on the spiritual path and each one must find their own way to God. The fact that Victoria found her way in Islam doesn’t make it the only real way. It is the way she has chosen because she finds it best. But her choice expresses nothing more than the fruit of her personal journey.

I did not chide Victoria for becoming a Muslim. I merely reminded her that as an ex-Franciscan novice (noviciate) for many years, she would be amply familiar with Christian beliefs about Jesus and in what way it is different from the Islamic view of Jesus.

As for me, I can assure you having been born and raised in India, I have been exposed to several religions from the time I was a child. In school we had to learn the basics of every major religion in India as part of the effort to inculcate a sense of national unity. After meeting Dom Bede Griffiths, I was exposed to the spiritual side of other religions too. Fr Bede by the way is a scholar, who had spent his whole life learning about the spirituality not only in Christianity but in other religions as well. He was an atheist before he became a Catholic. One does get a good idea of other religions if one were to read his books. I found his book ‘Cosmic Revelation’ most useful in understanding Christianity in the context of other religions. Fr Bede remained a deeply committed Christian despite being a scholar on other religions and even introducing Scripture from other religions as part of Christian prayer service. There are many Catholic priests, who after Vatican Council II, specialised in other religions without giving up Christianity. There are many Hindu sages who have incorporated wisdom from other religions without giving up their religion.

The case of Adam: Adam was created by God just as a potter makes a pot. He was the first man, a CREATION of God. There is a big difference between Adam and Jesus. We don’t call a pot the child of a potter. Jesus on the other hand although born of a human being, had God as father, by the miracle of Virgin birth, hence His divinity. That is why Christians say that Jesus was both God and man – divine, because His father was God and human, because His mother was a human being. He was limited in space and time and body as a man. He suffered as any other human being would. He was tempted as any other human being would have been. (At the end of forty days of fasting the devil appeared to Him and said that he would give him the kingdoms of this world if only Jesus would fall down and worship satan, and Jesus said “NO!”) Since He came to die for the sins of mankind, He felt separated from God as a human being at the time He was bearing the punishment for the sins of mankind on the cross. Sin separates man from a holy God. If Jesus had not lived a holy and perfect life, His sacrifice on the cross would have made no sense. If He had been crucified for His own sins, how could it have been counted as virtue at all, after all Jesus would have been merely paying the price of sin that He deserved. If Jesus was not God at the same time, how could His sacrifice have had an eternal significance, a price that could serve as adequate atonement for all of mankind? I can assure that the concept of Incarnation is not new or blasphemous to Hindu understanding of God, nor the thought that God can take a human form to fight evil. God does not need to come as a worldly king to accomplish His purpose. In fact it is by taking on a humble form that God is able to test the human heart. Who wouldn’t follow a powerful worldly king who promises worldly wealth and carnal pleasure? Isn’t that what all the worldly rulers are about anyway? What has it got to do with the spiritual world, or the eternal world of God?

If you wish to understand from where the Christians derive the concept of the Trinity, please read the Gospel of John, especially chapters 14-17 in which Jesus gives His last instructions to the disciples and prays for them, not only for the ones who were present with Him but for all His followers until the end of time. He included me in His prayer too!

The reason I suggested that you read the books of C S Lewis is also to emphasise that I have a very strong rational foundation for my Christian faith. C S Lewis is considered the best Christian writer of the past hundred years. I read his books twenty three years ago when I spent time at the Christian Ashram of Dom Bede Griffiths, who happens to have been a student and friend of C S Lewis at Oxford, and hence had all of Lewis’ books in the Ashram library.

Let the openness for dialogue continue, and may mutual respect for each other’s belief be the foundation of all dialogue.

Good luck to you too!

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

thank you HL-

HL wrote-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"When I raise my objections to Christians about their dogmas and the mystery religion, they tell me that I don't understand the bible . And I say what do I do to understand the bible. They tell me you have to have the Holy Ghost in you to understand the bible. And I ask how do I receive this thing you call Holy Spirit. They say you have to believe in the bible. Have ever heard such a circular reasoning. "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

that is an example of circular reasoning- it actually leads back to the beginning and could go on in perpetual motion seemingly indefinitely.

soja wrote-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"name calling.

If you say that Christians merely use circular reasoning to justify their belief, because a Christian chooses to believe what is written in the Bible and believe that is the word of God and the Jesus Christ portrayed in it was a real person, couldn’t one say the same thing about a Muslim,.....Doesn’t your belief require faith and circular reasoning on your part too?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

this is not circular reasoning because it doesnt perpetuate but has a definite conclusion i.e. with faith one can believe.

and the most obvious difference- in this statement the criteria to justify was met-

in circular reasoning there is no justification- hence no conclusion- hence endless circles-

that is why circualr reasoning is so dissatisfying and frustrating to approach with logic.

it presents itself as a logical statement, then ignores it.
no attempt is made to satisfy logic- instead, an impossible and illogical aspect is thrown in (the holy spirit being necessary for interpretation)

the other statement doesnt premise itself on logic at all- but bases its validation on an agreed upon premise that faith itself is valid.
(which works only on consensus- and without that criteria also falls apart logically.

so, as believers in our respective prophets and faiths- we can agree upon a general consensus that we will mutually respect and accept the premise of faith as valid.

now i spent half a lifetime trying to correlate the words of jesus(ata) with the concepts of the trinity and divinity.

what i found, was this.
i highlighted every place in the bible where Jesus(ata) called himself or referred to his status as a man, and the differentiations between him and god.

there is no place in the bible where Jesus(ata) calls himself god- or indicates co-equal status, but always as the sent messenger from the giver of the message.

the only answer for the trinity comes as a mystery, which requires not only a suspension of disbelief, but accepting the words ofpeople as well, which i was never able to substitute for the message of god.

i never have this experience with the qur'an-
itis what it says, and there are no times when logic or rational thought is suspended to justify a mans theory.

this is the problem we have all the time- when people try to prove their own theories, but cannot use the qur'an clearly and logically- but have to break it apart and ignore parts to make it fit.
(as in 9:5)

the fact that others, who would not accept such a reasoning from their own scriptures, readily accept disjointed and fractured verses to continue to validate their own misperceptions about islam (in other words, allows them to justify their own prejudice) is frankly, hypocritical.

one question i always had was, the FIRST COMMANDMENT- the very first word to the people from the mouth of god- states the oneness of god-
and dispenses with any further idea of any being co-equal to god.

i could never reconcile this with the divinity of jesus(ata)

nowhere did Jesus(ata) make that claim, so why would people make it about him?

the other was the last words of Jesus(ata) o the cross.

did he lose faith at the last minute?
wasnt he in communication with god?
how cold he doubt this at the end?
does that mean he was riddled with doubts his whole life- eating at his core so that it came out in his most desperate hour? his final moment of testing?
how could a life spent seeking union with god, feel abandoned at this most critical moment?

and it is further confounded when one considers Jesus(ata) god himself-

how could one abandon oneself?

and since Jesus(ata) did away with the need for blood sacrifice, why would a quasi-cannabilistic sacrifice of his blood be necessary?

did god become more vengeful over time- from when he asked abraham to sacrifice his firstborn?
that was itself a test, do the 'moods' of god fluctuate so wildly that what was unacceptable before becomes necessity?

muslims do not and can not personify or give human traits to god- even gender-
these are just some questions.

islam answered them

we are to hold no distinctions between prophets, and not assign values to them.
all are to be loved and revered and respected

now the link provided, one ofmy favorite ayat pieces is this, VERILY MY MERCY OVERCOMES MY ANGER

-now when the sister wrote this- i had not satisfied myself and was struggling to make the analogy fit- for rahman and rahim to be opposites-

this was presented as a misconception in islam-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That Allah's mercy is the attribute with which He predominantly deals with humankind, thus relieving us of the anxiety and fear associated with His overwhelming Power and Authority and potential anger."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i do not consider this a misconception, but amost anxiety reducing fact.
it does not lead me to be weak where i would be strong- or to make allowances in myself when i shouldnt. and its still my favorite.

i bookmarked it and thank you again HL.
peace

Victoria and any interested Muslims,

Please check out this article by sister in Islam W. H. about the meaning of Arrahman. She has a very compelling argument.

http://www.quran-islam.org/227.html

Soja,

You wrote: "Dialogue in my opinion is about accepting the differences in belief and looking for common ground despite the differences,.." I totally agree with in that regard. Much of the hate we see today stems from ignorance and lack of knowledge about other people religions and traditions. If people know more about each other, the world would definitely be a better place. Also, we are told in the Quran to be civil when arguing with people in matter of religion:

016.125 Invite to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.

The verses I listed from Psalm 22 show some discrepancies in subject matter. I think the ones from the KJV show a blatant manipulation of the text to fit some scribe's agenda and theology. You sidestepped the argument that I posed and claimed belief by faith instead. The question that I would ask you, then, which of the three sources would you accept as the “inerrant” word of God? I really expected a more profound and more reasoned debate than what you offered. Earlier in one of your posts you mentioned that you are Christian by conviction; but it seems to me that you are a Christian by mere heritage. You had no right, then, to chide Victoria for using her God given intelligence and reasoning to accept Islam as her religion in spite of being born in Catholic environment.

You mentioned St Thomas being in India. I did not know of such a story so I looked it up in Wikipedia and I read the whole article about early Christianity in that part of the world. I heard and read about Jesus being in India after his alleged crucifixion but I did not know about Thomas. Do the locals use the Gospel of Thomas, the Acts of Thomas and the Infancy Gospel of Thomas? God in the Quran tells us that to every people a messenger was sent:

016.036 For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, (with the Command), "Serve God, and eschew Evil": of the People were some whom God guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).

Therefore, Muslims believe that if one digs deep enough and removes all the man made doctrines and traditions, one would find out that all religions are the same in their basic form and teachings. We Muslims are not supposed to say: abandon your religion and come to mine. All we are asked to tell people of other faith is not to commit excesses in their religion and not to say about God except the truth.

Victoria, in an earlier post alluded to the fact that Jesus was an exception but he was not the only exception(Adam being the other.) God has power over everything and

002.117 To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.

Glory be to him indeed. Also, No where in the bible did Jesus ever explicitly claim divinity or equality with God. Yet that's what we find in the creeds formulated by the Church in the fourth century. Jesus claimed that he was a man sent by God with a message:

John 8:39 Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing what Abraham did, 40but now you are trying to kill me, a MAN who has told you the truth that I heard from GOD.

Please, tell me if he can be more explicit than that?

The great schism between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church was about the filioque close. The argument was over whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the son and the father or proceeds from the father only. This is the kind of subjects humans should stay away from because they have no knowledge of the matter. Yet people died fighting over it and to this day the two branches of Christianity are at odds with each other.

The Quran makes sense to me when it says :
5:77. Say(O Muhammad): "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.

Not a lot of people know that Jewish and Christian Arabs use Allah to refer to God. Here is a link you can check out for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

You wrote: "Jesus referred to God as Abba, meaning Father (in my mother tongue, Malayalam, we would say ‘Appa’ or ‘Appan’ for father), and He asked us to address God as Father/Abba too."

Well, in Arabic aba means father, too. I thought Jesus said not to call any man father, but Catholics do anyway.

Well, good luck to you and thanks for your suggested reading material.

HL,

For a rational portrayal of Christianity, I suggest you read the books written by C S Lewis, starting with 'Mere Christianity.' Your intellect will find his style much more to your taste and you will find C S Lewis' take on the mystery religion that is Christianity a lot more fun to read than anything that I might have to say. You can sharpen your arguments in favour of Islam (if you choose to) when it is pitted against the intellect of someone like C S Lewis. You may read his books simply for the sake of acquiring a little more rational information on a religion which has over two billion followers in the world.

Ayesha Ahmed is right on highlighting aspects of the debate between Muslim and non-Muslim on Islam.

Good, succint post.

HL (Ref posts 18 April 2007 12:11 PM, 6:53 PM, 11:50 PM):

I agree that one can discuss any topic, even disagree with the other, without resorting to insults and name calling.

If you say that Christians merely use circular reasoning to justify their belief, because a Christian chooses to believe what is written in the Bible and believe that is the word of God and the Jesus Christ portrayed in it was a real person, couldn’t one say the same thing about a Muslim, or about a person of any faith for that matter? If you didn’t believe what is written in the Quran and Hadiths and Sira is based on what Prophet Mohammad said or did, you wouldn’t be a Muslim either, would you? Doesn’t your belief require faith and circular reasoning on your part too? So faith is fundamental to all religions, not just Christianity. So there is not much point in trying to convince anyone of any faith, especially if they have consciously accepted it, that their belief is wrong. Ask an atheist and he can “prove” to you that all religious belief is rubbish.

Dialogue in my opinion is about accepting the differences in belief and looking for common ground despite the differences, not about agreeing that all is the same. It doesn’t make much sense trying to convince a Christian that the Muslim interpretation of Jesus Christ is right and call that an attempt at dialogue, because the Muslim version of Jesus contradicts the core of Christian belief. If Jesus was a mere man and a prophet at best, there is no basis for Christianity. Christians couldn’t enter into a dialogue with Muslims by trying to undo the fundamentals of Islam. We must simply accept the fact that some aspects are fundamentally different and the differences can never be bridged, and look for common ground. And we do have common ground as members of the Abrahamic faith.

You referred to the singing and music in Pentecostal Churches as something absurd. Do you recall that King David was known to dance and sing before God as part of his worship? It is only when we make God in our image and likeness that we prescribe to Him human attributes and make decisions on His behalf on what may appeal to Him. The Bible makes it clear that what God wants is a pure and contrite heart as offering. All the rest is secondary. I found the story by Rumi posted by someone on this site a while ago quite moving and relevant to the point. Rumi is a great Sufi mystic and I have great admiration for him, as does many people of all religions around the world.

I had no idea that Arab Christians and Jews refer to God as Allah. Jesus referred to God as Abba, meaning Father (in my mother tongue, Malayalam, we would say ‘Appa’ or ‘Appan’ for father), and He asked us to address God as Father/Abba too.

You have quoted different translations of Psalm 22 with the intention of proving that maybe Christians haven’t got the message quite right. Well, I can only repeat what I have already said several times before: My ancestors, who were Nambudiri Hindu Brahmins, were converted to Christianity by Apostle Thomas who came to Kerala in 52 AD. Apostle Thomas must have made a pretty strong case to persuade them, as Brahmins, to give up the privileges they enjoyed as members of an exclusive and powerful Hindu community. That case is good enough for me. Their conversion did not depend on any translation of the Bible but on the words of an Apostle who had been with Jesus, who had doubted the Resurrection and was only convinced after he could touch the wounds of the risen Jesus himself.

i wanted to remark on the reasoning ive heard used countless times to validate the divinity of Jesus(ata). the point was made that because mary was virgin- that this confers divinity upon jesus(ata)

one might also argue that adam, the first man had no earthly father OR MOTHER!!!
by this line of logic that would make adam doubly divine! (in that case he would comprise 2/3 of the trinity, and would even outrank god in divinity!

every human (except adam and eve) is born of woman.
and ever human dies.
there is the distinction with our Prophet(pbuh) that he was the only human ever born to be given a choice when it came his time to die.
this is a singular and unique distinction of any prophet anytime or where.

while soja said that the Prophet(pbuh) married a child, and acquired his wives in a 'not exemplary' fashion, these are really bad enough.
but to further state that our Prophet(pbuh) was such an extreme hypocrite that he would instruct his followers to "do as he said, not as he did" is a very strongly put accusation.

soja, use the same criteria of respect for our Prophet(pbuh) that we as muslims give to Jesus(ata).

you have never heard any here make any radical or malicious statements about Jesus(ata).

and you wont.

but such slander shouldnt be levied against Muhammad(pbuh) either

and to me it is personal when someone says something false and vicious about Muhammad(pbuh)

as i revere him and follow his example, as do all muslims-

we are not fools to love a hypocrite.

we know he is not, and have the qur'an and sunnah and many sterling examples of his honorable and trustworthy nature.

also- you stated that it would be beyond reason to discuss religion with a non-adherent- but then went on to say that you know exactly why you arent a muslim.

i also know exactly why im not a christian, or a hindu, or a jew, or buddhist.

from learning everything about these religions and worshiping in their practices.

but alluding to some inferiority in these faiths doesnt strengthen islam-

so i dont do it.

i think thats the bottom line- there are no forms of xenophobia that are acceptable.

Advice to Muslim debaters:

1. A popular question asked is "why does Islam call for death of Islamic critics and apostates". Insist that their info is false. Quote aya "to you your religion and to me my religion".

2. To answer "Islam spread with sword", say that it is a big lie spread by the Jews and Hindus and that Quran clearly says " there is no compulsion in religion".

3. If some one quotes violent ayas from the Quran, accuse him of quoting ayas in bits and pieces and cherry picking .

4. If he then quotes full ayas and ayas before and after, than insist that the translation is wrong.

5. If he brings ten different translations than say correct meanings can be understood only by reading Quran in Arabic.

6. If he happens to be well versed in Arabic language than insist that those ayas don't mean what they appear to mean as they have allegorical meanings.

7. If he is adamant, than say you cannot understand those ayas and it's context without reading the Hadith and Sira.

8. If he shows up with the Hadiths and Siras in hand and quotes the context of the violent ayas by referring to Hadiths of prophet's rapes, robberies , assassinations and genocides then insist that "all Hadiths and Siras are heresay and are false, and only truth is in the Quran.

9. If he says Quran is a man made document and wants proof of it's divinity then refer to the sciences in Quran and the book written by Dr. Bucaile confirming the sciences in our holy book. You can also quote that Mahatama Gandhi read Quran daily and also spoke highly of it.

10. If he says that Bucaile was on Saudi payroll and that nor he nor Gandhi ever changed their religions, Gandhi read the Bhagavad Gita everyday, and that Bucaile was challenged and proven wrong by many experts then challenge him to ask his experts to debate Islamists like Zakir Naik.

11. If the pests still hangs around then change the topic and find faults in other religions and their books.

12. If he continues on then use personal attacks and insult him by calling him a Jewish a- hole , a Chinese pig or a Hindu dog .

13. If that does not frustrate him, then ask him how much he is being paid by Jews to throw dirt on Al Islam.

14. If he still does not stop then run for his mother and sister and use very filthy language.

15. If he is very stubborn and wants to continue, then curse him like "Burn in hell, you will repent on last day, Allah will get you in your grave" etc

16. When all of the above has failed, threaten him with bodily harm and end the debate by drum beating and announcing that you won the debate hands down because Quran is the word of Allah.

17. If possible anounce about this debate in an Islamist website and that you had won it handily. Such announcements do wonders for the iman of Muslim website readers and for dawah operations in prisons to convince low IQ prisoners of the truth of Al Islam.

18. You can also say Christians, Jews, Hindus and all other religions have worse qualities compared to Islam, so Islam is less evil.

19. KoRand is words of Allah according to Pedo Mo. and Pedo Mo is the last prophet of Allah according to KoRand.

-------------------------- Ayesha Ahmed

Soja,

Actually, the translation from the NRSV that I have in my possession says:

Psalm 22:12 Many bulls encircle me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me; 13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast; 15 my moutha is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs are all around me; a company of evildoers encircles me. My hands and feet have shriveled; 17 I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me; 18 they divide my clothes among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots.

Soja,

Christians like to say that the Hebrew bible is the literal word of God. It might have been penned by men but it was breathed and inspired by God. They do not necessarily think they should obey the commandments and laws described in the text. They just like to keep the OT because they say it proves and predicts Jesus’ coming and crucifixion. One of the prophecies they like to point to is the one in Psalm 22:16. Here it is KJV:

Psalm 22: 12 Many bulls have surrounded Me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me. 13 They gape at Me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced[c] My hands and My feet; 17 I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. 18 They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots.

It isn't difficult to understand why Christians are so confident that this verse contains a clear reference to Jesus' crucifixion. Of whom, missionaries ask, other than Jesus, could the Psalmist be speaking? To which other individual in history, whose hands and feet were pierced, could the Bible be referring? But if we examine the Hebrew bible we find something different. Here is what the previously mentioned verses say:

Psalm 22:13 Many bulls have encompassed me; strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. 14 They open wide their mouth against me, as a ravening and a roaring lion. 15 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is become like wax; it is melted in mine inmost parts. 16 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my throat; and Thou layest me in the dust of death. 17 For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet. 18 I may count all my bones; they look and gloat over me. 19 They part my garments among them, and for my vesture do they cast lots.

Also, the Revised Standard version have the same verses as follows:

Psalm 22:12: Many bulls encompass me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me; 13: they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion. 14: I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax, it is melted within my breast; 15: my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; thou dost lay me in the dust of death. 16: Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet -- 17: I can count all my bones -- they stare and gloat over me; 18: they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots.

Notice that when the original words of the Psalmist are read, any allusion to a crucifixion disappears.
The confusion started by the authors of the KJV who translated the Hebrew word Kaari as pierced. The word “kaarii, however, does not mean "pierced," it means "like a lion."

Bear in mind, this stunning mistranslation in the 22nd Psalm did not occur because Christian translators were unaware of the correct meaning of this Hebrew word. Clearly, this was not the case. The word kaari can be found in a number of other places in the Jewish scriptures. Yet predictably, the same Christian translators who rendered kaari as "pierced" in Psalm 22 correctly translated it "like a lion" in all other places in the Hebrew Bible where this word appears.

Also, the Jewish scriptures were written in Hebrew, not in seventeenth century King James English. What has made Christian believers so vulnerable to Bible tampering is the almost unimaginable reality that only a very tiny group of them can read their Bible in its original language. As you and countless other Christians earnestly study the authorized version of the Bible, there is a blinding yet prevailing assumption that what you are reading is the inerrant word of God. Nothing, however, could be further from the truth.

SOJA - well, originally, the subtle discrediting of the Prophet(pbuh) that you expressed still remains what it is- whether it was a response to HL- or for whatever reason-

i think what distrubed you initially was HL's point that if Jesus(ata) is part of the triumvarate- he shares responsibility for the violence that has been done i his name.

HL actually didnt contain any ignorance of christianity- but was seeking a logical bearer of the responsibility.

and again- speaking with an angel (who is the messenger of god to man) is IN ADDITION TO communication with god-not INSTEAD OF-

the difference between HL's post, and your posts is this-

HL is listing the behaviors of christians in history- not making any negative comments about Jesus(ata) himself.

the point being it is the fallacies of man- and not the intrinsic corruption of the messenger of god (i.e. Jesus(ata) and Muhammad(pbuh)

while his (or her) observations keep the respect for Jesus(ata) there are many shades and colorings of a negative nature that you express about our Prophet(pbuh) which are contrary to reasonable dialogue.

of course we will defend slander of our Prophet(pbuh) as you have for yours.

you got shaken by what you perceived as a mischaracterization of christianity- and felt justified in denouncing the criticizer, instead of addressing the points made.

personally, asking HL to counter his concept of Jesus(ata) because you think it is anathema to what the bible says is strictly your opinion, as many different christians dont believe in your personal interpretation- jehovahs witnesses for instance dont believe in the divinity of Jesus(ata) at all-

now saying that one shouldnt expect you to discuss christian revelation with one not of that faith is just avoiding addressing points made.

it doesnt answer the points and doesnt really even make sense.
why would that be a condition?

as far as the holy spirit precluding scriptural interpretation-
Jesus(ata) HIMSELF was not privy to the holy spirit and managed to interpret judaic scripture without it.

actually the word paracletus doesnt mean holy gohost or spirit at all- it means comforter.

it was in reading this passage that it came intro my heart that he was speaking of the comforter that would come after him, and it is clear to me that is a reference to Muhammad(pbuh).

also as HL pointed out, Jesus(ata) didnt fulfill all of the prophecies concerning him-
if you make a chart of the prophecies(and i did) there are many aspects that didnt apply to Jesus(ata)

he wasnt the messiah expected by the jewish people at the time- he didnt come on a horse with a sword to rescue hos people from their oppressors, he didnt conduct state affairs or govern his people- he didnt live as a householder with a family and its responsibilities-

actually the prophecies in isaiah present a mossiach who is much closer in demeanor to moses than Jesus(ATA)
Muhammad(pbuh) fulfilled these prophecies, also coming from the seed of ishmael (as was foretold to abraham) and rising from the valley of becca (also biblical prophecy)

different bibles have said different things regarding the sacrifice of the firstboern of abraham for example-

the 1954 revised standard edition states that the firstborn was to be sacrificed by abraham(as hagar was the wife of abraham, her progeny was the legitimate firstborn) while later editions of the revised place isaac's name in the place of 'firstborn'.

the place where this sacrifice took place is what is present day ka'aba.

abraham was told that his seed would number the stars, and ishmael the firstborn was his seed also- and a prophet came from that line.

it would be beyond ridiculous to contend that god made a mistake regarding the birth of ishmael.

regarding these statements you made about our Prophet(pbuh) - (in the taylor catholic discrimination blog)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I do not deny too that there is much violence mentioned in the Quran, and that Prophet Mohammad's marriages to several women including a child, his method of acquiring those wives, after the death of his first wife, from the age of fifty to his death twelve years later, are not very encouraging or exemplary. But from what I understand his followers were instructed not to do as he did with regard to polygamy, but to do as he said and Muslims consider whatever he did as special privileges granted to a prophet but his behaviour was not to be imitated by the ordinary human being."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

as i pointed out with specifics, these are all false impressions and very derogatory slanders against the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)

and also exactly opposite of what is demanded of muslims- namely that they in fact ARE to imitate the honorable and blameless example of our Rasul(pbuh).

as far as the assumptions made on my state of spirit and reasons for becoming muslim-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I'm Catholic, but I'm NOT at the stage Victoria must have been at one time in her life, when as an ex-Catholic nun disillusioned with Christianity, she was seeking meaning in other religions. I'm a Christian by conviction."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

you wildly mischaracterize me and my intentions and state of mind- also i am not an ex-nun, but an ex-novitiate.
theres a big difference.

so HL was making the point that you engaged in something underhanded- undercutting by inference and coloring nuanced discrediting is a closer statement.

there has been no aspersion cast upon Jesus(ata)
and the conversation should remain free of such.

as for my reasons for becoming muslim- they are many and too much for this present post as its really overlong.but your perception is way way off.

so back to the debate- if jesus(ata) is part and parcel if the godhead, he would naturally assume some responsibility for the actions in his name(or god's-if they are co-equal in power they are co-equal in repsonsibility)

Soja,

The point I wanted to make was that we can talk about any subject in a respecful manner without resorting to name calling and insults.
You wrote:

"You are surely not asking me, as a Christian to discuss with you, a Muslim, what Christian revelation is? Wouldn't it be like me discussing Islam with you to tell you why I don't practise it as my religion?"

I did not ask you that. All I asked was since you labeled me as ignorant of the Christian faith to please tell me where I have erred. And still you did not refute my claims and clarify your objections. When I raise my objections to Christians about their dogmas and the mystery religion, they tell me that I don't understand the bible . And I say what do I do to understand the bible. They tell me you have to have the Holy Ghost in you to understand the bible. And I ask how do I receive this thing you call Holy Spirit. They say you have to believe in the bible. Have ever heard such a circular reasoning. Maybe that's what you are trying to tell me about discussing Christain revelation.

You also wrote,

"I love the Muslim call to prayer that ring out from Mosques, for it raises my heart to God, although I don't call Him Allah."

Did you know the Christian and Jewish Arabs refer to God as Allah? In the semetic languages which include Arabic, Hebrew and Aramaic, the use the sounds e or a and L to refer to deity. Remember what Jesus said in Aramaic when he was on the cross:

Mark 15:34And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

His appeal to God was from a psalm of David, Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?

HL

You are surely not asking me, as a Christian to discuss with you, a Muslim, what Christian revelation is? Wouldn't it be like me discussing Islam with you to tell you why I don't practise it as my religion? Please reread your comments about Christianity, which I quoted in my post addressed to Victoria, and explain to me on what basis you intend to discuss Christianity.

I don't recall anyone having attacked Victoria as a person. The difference of opinion was about Islam. Unless one classifies disagreeing with Islam on certain aspects (which is natural in a debate between people who hold opposing opinions) as disagreeing with Victoria or being nasty to her, I don't really see the ground for grievance. There are plenty of atheists here who have nothing good to say about any religion, and have quite a harsh opinion of people who believe in God, yet the believers are not taking any of it personally.

As to discussing Christianity with a Muslim who has been quite candid about what they think about Christianity: I am not a Christian who is questioning her beliefs you know. I'm Catholic, but I'm NOT at the stage Victoria must have been at one time in her life, when as an ex-Catholic nun disillusioned with Christianity, she was seeking meaning in other religions. I'm a Christian by conviction. I know exactly why I am not a Muslim, even though I have been exposed to several religions, and value the wisdom of Buddhism, Hinduism and Sufi Islam. I have even spent lengthy periods of time in an Christian Ashram in India, where we read from the Scripture of other religions, including the Quran, once a day.

I have had no problems associating with Muslims or respecting their way to God. I'm a native of a state in India which has 24.7% Muslims. In the school I attended (not in Kerala), we had to learn the verses of an Indian Sufi mystic, Kabir, who was claimed by Hindus and Muslims as their own. The idea behind teaching Kabir's poems in school was to inculcate Hindu-Muslim unity in India. I still enjoy Kwaavali music, and I love the Muslim call to prayer that ring out from Mosques, for it raises my heart to God, although I don't call Him Allah.

I hope that clarifies my stand a bit more.

Pamela Taylor wrote:

"As a practicing Muslim, however, I wouldn’t advocate for Muslims to abandon the rituals of Islam in favor of other rituals. Rather, these other disciplines should supplement Islamic rituals."

This is precisely HYPOCRISY. A so-called moderate Muslim doesd not advocate the freedom of Muslims to choose their own way of worship. Why should the other rituals be only supplemental to Islam ? What is so exalted about Islam, compared to other
religious traditions ?

We often hear how moderate Muslims are trying to reform Islam and distancing themselves from the fundamentalist and violence. This article by Pamela Taylor shows the lies that are being churned out by the Muslims in the name of "moderation". Pamela would thus disapprove of any Muslim who has renounced his/her faith and is thus declared as an "apostate" or "heretic". Thus, she may not herself go out and stone those who have renounced Islam, but she won't condemn those who attack these "heretics" either. This emboldens the spirit of the Jihadists who are out there to spread the intolerant message of the barbaric belief system called Islam.

HL:

Before the discussion can be taken any further, you might first begin by listing my underhanded comments. You might also like to read my comments on all the Muslims threads thus far. I have listed every single one of your comments to which I was respoding.

Soja,

Every time one of the Muslims in the on faith panel writes a piece, no matter what the subject is, mind you, the born again Christians come from the woodworks and start the name calling and throwing insults at Islam and our beloved Prophet with no respect for other people's beliefs. They get a pleasure from ganging up on Victoria, eventhough she has shown great restraint and manners despite the personal attacks that they throw at her every time she writes something. I noticed you sometimes write some underhanded comments but they are not as vulgar like the others. Obviously they did not read what Jesus said in the book of Luke:

Luke 6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

I don't like pointing out faults with other people's belief system, to each his own, but there is a limit to what a person can take and those guys sometimes push the envelope real hard. So I wrote what I thought was a critique of the basic Christian dogams.

You wrote in your post:
"...HL’s post did display considerable ignorance of Christianity on his part..."

Please point to me where I have erred and we can discuss your objections in detail.

You also wrote:
"... then you make Jesus Christ Himself and all the Prophets of the Old Testament who prophesied about His coming to be liars,..."

I read the bible, the Tanakh and the NT, and there is not a single verefiable prophecy that Jesus fulfilled what the Jews expected of their eventual Messiah to be. Appostle Peter was a Jew and he was surprised when Jesus told him that he was going to die. He did not know that their Messiah is going to just die and not fufill the hope of the Jewish people who expected to be given a king in line of David who would restore might and power to them.

Martk 8:30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him. 31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. 33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

From what I read from the synoptics, Jesus was annointed, a Messiah, by God to be a reformer and to teach the Jews the spirit of the Law of Moses and not the letter of the Law. In countless verses of the NT, Jesus rebuked his fellow Jews for doing just that.
Jesus also taught how to achieve God's pleasure and be admitted to the kingdom of God. After his death, some of his supposed followers did not heed the meassage but in fact started to worship the messanger. The church came up with creeds and more creeds about Jesus and punished any one who disagreed with them. I don't pay much attention to what some writers in the NT have to say because there are too many contradictions in their analyses; but if you are going to quote any thing from the NT, please make sure it is what Jesus supposed to have said, they are in red letters if you have such a bible.
Unlike Jesus, Muhammad was in the line of Moses, a law giver, and a leader of his community. So, the comparison has no basis; besides, the Quran says that we should believe in the prophets and not to make any distinction between them...

Concerned the Christian now Liberated

You are going to have to come to terms with the fact that there are quite a few of us out there who choose to remain "unliberated," as a conscious act of free will, with all our reason and all our heart.

As to Father Schilleeeckx, who is trying to stop him from writing what he wants, and who stops anyone from accepting his "profound" words as a substitute for the Bible?

Please spend some of your spare time studying the many hundreds of different religions and many hundreds of different gods people have worshiped over the millennia, then you will come to understand that human beings are prone to making up beliefs and then dying for such manmade beliefs.

It is a fact that people believe whatever they want to believe, which means the foundations of all religion are firmly rooted in deep delusion. Please study the ancient gods, then you will see that all such beliefs are manmade. You don’t have to live your life in a state of delusion. It is ridiculous that people still follow these manipulative manmade beliefs. We have education nowadays. You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Please drink from education, and leave all this religious ignorance in the past, where it belongs.

How can you call yourself educated and religious at the same time? The two are opposites. Spend some time studying all the ancient gods, then all will become clear to you.

Prophets? Prophecies?

No way, just old time religion wishful thinking. Or as Professor Crossan would say,

"Prophecy turned into history rather than history remembered" .

As per the contemporary Christian theologian, Father Edward Schillebeeckx, (from his book, Church, the History of God,Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

"Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" . "Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

And with this profound observation, Schillebeeckx rendered all prophets, i.e. Isaiah, Jesus, Mohammed, Smith et al, and prophecies moot!!!!!

Victoria (Ref post 16 April 2007, 3:01 PM)

My post addressed to HL was in response to the following he posted:
-------------------------------------------------

“Christianity is bloodier and more begoted than any other religion the world has ever seen if you want to keep count…We Muslims say and God tells us in the Quran that God has power over everything and all things. We say God does godly things and becoming a man is not one of them. The primitive man believed in man gods; it is too bad that Christians still do. The thing is the Christians have no proof whatsoever from the NT if you read it as a whole…Are you saying that God can be three or just his nature to be three if He chooses to be any thing; Why not twelve or seven if he can do any thing he wants to.” (LT, posted 13 April 2007, 3:36 PM)

“The way I see it, you are worshiping an man and the way pople act in the churches, speaking in garbage language they call speaking in tongues, dancing and clapping to the drums and guitars, waving their hands in the air, rolling and fainting on the floor, handling snakes,..., they are all the sign of a cult. So don't tell me about cults, I can see them on TV every Sunday morning, thank you very much...” (LT, posted 13 April 2007, 3:51 PM)

“By the way I still stand by my argument that the christians throughtout history are the bloddiest, most biggoted of any organized religion. No one comes even close... And still christianity is a primitive religion no matter how you sugar coat it.” (LT, posted 13 April 2007, 8:43 PM)

“I bet you would like us to have the problem of worshiping a man…Face the music Jesus can not do you any good nor can he harm you. Why don't come to your senses and repent before it is too late for you. When you meet your maker and find out Jesus ain't lord nor a demi god you will not be able to have a second chance and you will have only yourslef to blame.” (LT, posted 13 April 2007, 8:57 PM)

“This is how Christians understand God to be: some kind of supernatural person who who rides on angles and have fire and somke coming out of his nostrels:” (LT, 14 April 2007, 9:13 AM)
“Killing is sanctined and condoned by the lord of hosts in the good book which the pagan christians believe is the word of God:” (LT, 14 April 2007, 9:18 AM)

“More condoned killings of the innocent ordered by the lord of hosts or is that Jesus himself. Mybe you pagan missioanry can tell us which of the three ordered this cold blooded massacre.” (LT, 14 April 2007, 9:23 AM)

“The Christians believe that Jesus is God or part of god commitee. So he is responsible for instructing the killing and the genocide of the infants, the women and the animals as recorded in OT. It is the exact breathed the word of God like they say.” (LT, 14 April 2007, 11:20 AM)

“I don’t see how any one can be as generous towards any other religion as Islam is to Judaism and Christianity.’ (LT, 14 April 2007, 11:24 AM)

“So Mr missionary guy you got nothing you can offer me except blasphemous doctrines and creeds and a primitive religion that Jesus himself would never have claimed or subscribed to.” (LT, 14 April 2007, 12:01 PM)

----------------------------------

As you can see Victoria, HL’s post did display considerable ignorance of Christianity on his part. It is from Muslim sources we know that Prophet Mohammad claimed that Angel Gabriel spoke to him; it is NOT a Christian interpretation of Islam or Prophet Mohammad’s words. Angel Gabriel as you know (being an ex-Franciscan nun) also spoke to Mother Mary, announcing the Virgin birth of Jesus. Christians believe that the message was from God and it came through Angel Gabriel to Mary. The Prophets of the Old Testament spoke of the coming of a Messiah and they did not get their message from an angel. Pointing out the difference was not to grade the quality of the revelation, but to emphasise that the Old Testament Prophets spoke of the coming of Jesus. Christians do not enter into a competition with Muslims about “my prophet is better than your prophet” as you mention, because we do not believe Jesus Christ was a prophet in the first place and we have no reason to compare Him with Prophet Mohammad. Jesus Christ was born of virgin proving His divine origin. And if the Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, that angel Gabriel spoke to Mary, they should have no problem accepting that Jesus Christ was not a mere man as Prophet Mohammad was. So where is the room for comparison? What is the need for a comparison? It is to a Muslim that Jesus Christ is merely a prophet, despite His virgin birth, despite His claim that He was the Son of God. I don’t know on what basis you say I made a complaint or comparison.

I was not speaking about Islam, I was only referring to HL’s interpretation of Christianity based on what he supposedly claims is written in the Quran about Jesus and Christianity. When you imply that what is written about Jesus and Christianity in the Quran is the message of God, then you make Jesus Christ Himself and all the Prophets of the Old Testament who prophesied about His coming to be liars, and what is written in the Quran alone about Jesus the truth. That is direct contradiction to the claim that Prophet Mohammad accepts the authenticity of the Old and New Testament as revelation of God. When Jesus came He did not say that the prophesies from the Old Testament were false, nor did He make up His own version of it. Jesus pointed out how His coming and His life was in accordance with the prophesies of the Old Testament.

The Bible contains no interpretation of Prophet Mohammad is there any prophesy about the coming of a prophet after the birth of Jesus, like the Old Testament contains prophesies about the coming of Jesus. John the Baptist was the last who spoke of the coming of Jesus.

As I mentioned in my post to HL, the Quran is free to interpret Jesus in anyway. But if contradicts the New Testament, then it merely a Muslim version of Jesus, not the Jesus described in the New Testament based on the witness of the Apostles who lived with Him and were taught by Him.

So I repeat that Christians do not agree with the Quranic version of Jesus, and to point that out does not constitute lack of respect. On the contrary it Christians who could take offence at the implication that Jesus was a liar, if the Quranic portrayal of Jesus is to be considered the truth, . but we don’t only because the Christian faith is not based on the Quran.

This forum is to find common ground and build a basis for dialogue, and the clarification of any misinterpretation is expected to aid in the process and not cause more divisions. Every religious revelation is unique, otherwise there wouldn't be more than one religion, and it is important to know the differences as well, even while looking for common ground. All religions want to reach God, and provide more happiness to themselves and to others. Let us continue to look for common ground.

I hope that helps.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia
------------------------------------
VICTORIA wrote:

soja- you said-

"The Prophets of the Old Testament claimed that God spoke to them. So there is slight difference in the way God spoke to the Prophets of the Old Testament."
you seem to be suggesting that Muhammad(pbuh) had no communication with god other than through the angel jibreel(gabriel).
and to imply there is some inferiority to the message of the Prophet(pbuh) compared to the "prophets of the OT.

this is a misunderstanding on your part.
of course the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was in direct communication with god.
it is not a competition or a "my prophet is better than your prophet".
now, you made this complaint.

"With due respect for your adherence to Islam, I would suggest that you do not make claims about a religion, namely Christianity, when you seem to know so little about it."
could equally apply-

"With due respect for your adherence to Christianity, I would suggest that you do not make claims about a religion, namely Islam, when you seem to know so little about it."
also, another misunderstanding you wrote-
"Christians do not accept Prophet Mohammad's interpretation of Jesus Christ and Christianity."
the Prophet(pbuh) purported no interpretation of christianity- Muhammad(pbuh) did not write the qur'an, or what is contained within.
it is the straight word of ALLAH- transmitted through the angel jibreel(gabriel) TO Muhammad(pbuh)
it is not the opinion or interpretation of Muhammad(pbuh).
so again, as i just reflected in the post above-
we really should try to refrain from casting aspersions at the beliefs of others-
as you bridled at others interpreting christianity for you, as a chirstian ( and possibly getting it wrong)
please extend the same respect to muslims.
POSTED APRIL 16, 2007 3:01 PM

Viejita del oeste,
It is sad to see how discussion with Muslims always turn to the central issues of the nature of Islam and the behavior of its founder.

However, what is the point of discussion if it merely becomes an exercise in ignoring the negatives of Islam and only concentrating on the alleged positives?

If people want to outdo one another in issuing platitudes about Islam and Muhammad, and ignore the unpleasant truths, then it becomes rather pointless, don't you think?

I much prefer to see a healthy robust discussion where both sides rigorously and vigorously defend their positions with logic and evidence. Don't mince words. Don't ignore the negatives. I want the truth and nothing but the truth.

Having said that it must be very disheartening for Muslims and their sympathizers to put up with the truth about Islam and Muhammad as revealed by the critics. I applaud them for their patience. They do a good service to us all in perpetuating discussion which can only lead to increased knowledge on all sides.

Gary Boxleitner

Anonymous. I am truly sorry for your unsavoury marriage to a dreadful man by any description. You should not taint all such people with the same tar brush thro one experience. I have been happily married to a Western woman for the last 30 years.I know of many other freinds who have equally happy marriages with Western women including my own older brother for more than 30 years. I have also seen many broken and violent marriages amongst Christian couples. You can not blame Mulims and Islam for the bad behaviour of such people. In my family women have much respect, many are university graduates and have very happy lives. It all depends very much on family teaching and upbringing. A child will normally inflict the same treatement on others as metted to them during childhood. Sadly many Muslim societies have inherited tribal garbbage and continue to inflict the same inhumane behaviour on others including their wives. The Quran tells us that we are made in the image of God just as all other religions do. We are 'khlifahs' or representatives of God on earth and we should treat each other as little gods. This should be our focal point which stems from the belief in Oneness of ALL Creation. Anything less is seperation and is going to create problems for us as human beings. Again I truly regret your past experience and pray that you find it in yourself to heal the past. With peace, love and respect.

To Anonymous:
Regarding your warning "I use this forum to warn all American Christian and Jewish women, do NOT believe, trust, and above all else NEVER marry a middle eastern muslim man. The differences in your respective religions and cultures are just too great to be overcome by your "love." Please don't be as naive as I was. And even if your husband does not abandon you, it will be a hard marriage."

It appears that your pain has not subsided enough for you to recognize that not all middle eastern muslim men will be like your husband. Usually, honesty is expected between two people considering marriage, but the truth of the matter is that people can be so blinded by love that they do not realize they are reshaping themselves to present the best possible image. Nor of course can the other person in the projected marriage know that the person is not being totally open or honest.

I also would not recommend marriages between people with many, many differences, especially cultural and religious,but ... many such marriages survive because of a strong love between the two people. They are not all necessarily "hard marriages" either, but family acceptance of these marriages must make a tremendous difference.

Let's face it, in today's world in the US at least marriage is not easy for most of us. Perhaps that is not only why divorce is relative easy in the US, but also that it is so common.

Cyra,
I'm not aware Charlemagne and the Greeks were prophets of God. Do we take our moral guidance from Charlemagne or the Greeks? No. So your argument is a red herring.

Why Muhammad's behavior is salient is because he claimed to be a prophet of God and the moral guide to humanity for all time. Because of this, we ask ourselves whether a true God would condone that actions Muhammad did such as killing people, making war, plundering, taking slaves, polygamy, sex slavery and pedophilia.

These are facts acknowledged by the Muslims themselves as true. Pointing them out is not hatred of Islam. How can showing everyone what Muslims agree their prophet did is showing hatred towards them?

Just because you dislike that your prophet's behavior is held up to scrutiny is no reason to accuse the critic of 'islamophobia' since the critic is merely quoting your own sources.

This cultural/temporal relativism excuse of yours is ridiculous. If God is eternal and his message is eternal why did he put forward barbaric practises as models for human behavior? Allah did not say those verses were only applicable in barbaric times - the implication is that they should be applicable forever.

But thanks anyway for tacitly acknowledging your prophet was a savage. It sure explains the behavior of Muslims today.

It saddens me to see the same Islamophobic rants any time Ms. Taylor contributes a column -- or any time any Muslim posts a comment on any subject at all. Like many people I come here to increase my understanding, not just of the "facts" of other religions but also of the tone and habits of their adherents.
So far only the atheists seem to have more unpleasant, rigid and narrow-minded attitudes than the evangelical Christians. I think they must find comfort in numbers. After all, it is easier to insult the minority views if you have a mob behind you.

I find it curious that there is so much Islamophobia in a forum that is meant to increase knowledge. It seems that the brave souls that have posted as "anonymous" who are set out to inflict their small-minded views on the rest of us have nearly succeeded in derailing the conversation. The same old Islamophobic, racist tropes about the "false" prophet, the pedophile, etc., trotted out. Interesting that no one really points out that Jesus was crucified for "lying" essentially about his messiah-hood (though Muslims believe that he was). Somehow, we're comfortable lauding warriors like Charlemagne who killed those who did not convert, married 5 women and had countless concubines, we seem to be fine with the Greeks who gave us democracy and slept with boys. But we can't put Muhammad in ANY kind of perspective except one that is blinded by hatred. Yes, life was different in a desert 1400 years ago and unfortunately, they didn't live by "anonymous's" 21st Century values that include ideas like "cults" and "legal ages of marriages". On some level, one should not even attempt to engage the intellectual mammoths who post this stuff. It's old and boring.

So, Pam, I'm with you. Most Muslims except the born-again tend to practice a culturally mediated, syncretic Islam. And I agree that women at the pulpit is a much needed change. God increases our knowledge as we evolve.

Three years ago I met a Muslim man who said that that I should depend on God first, and then on him. He spoke constantly about "honor" "integrity" and "family." I was so impressed by this man. He appeared to be everything I wanted in a husband. We married one year after meeting. I started to notice that my husband regarded me as the "enemy." He was very distrustful of me. I didn't know why. It's clear from the readings in the quoran that men are to distrust women. This is why women have not had their rightful place within the religion and are not treated with equal respect. I told my husband that I would never, never convert to Islam. I could see nothing peaceful about the religion nor him. He often espoused that Jews came from Apes -- or monkeys. This kind of bigotry I could not tollerate. My husband kept his religion and practices to himself -- until after we were married.

I've also learned that Islam allows/permits lying so long as it is for the believers good. Spouses are permitted to lie to each other to keep "peace." My husband lied to me often without so much as blinking.

My husband has left me. He left me while I was pregnant. Told me to "get rid of it" because I was going to be alone. Said that he did not love me at the time of conception. Said that I was making up the story just to trick him back into the marriage. He has said many, many things to me that I would not say to my worse enemy, let alone someone whom I claimed to have loved at one time.

I can not be sure why exactly it is that he left. I believe it had something to do with him being pressured by his family to do so. Middle Eastern Muslim men will do whatever his blood family tells him. And while you, in your Western, Christian thinking way may regard yourself as his family because you as his wife, his loyalty is not to you. As you are not part of his "bloodline."

I use this forum to warn all American Christian and Jewish women, do NOT believe, trust, and above all else NEVER marry a middle eastern muslim man. The differences in your respective religions and cultures are just too great to be overcome by your "love." Please don't be as naive as I was. And even if your husband does not abandon you, it will be a hard marriage.

Sister Pamela

I am afraid you really have the rednecks frothing at the mouth and out after you, not to mention the brave anonymous others. Thanks for a good article. With more women actively involved in the Muslim community and making decisions we can only get better and stronger and smarter.

Keep up the good work.

Hi Pamela,
You said "I find support for this position in the Qur'anic passage which tells us that humanity was created in tribes and nations so that we might-know each other in terms of interfacing and cooperating for the humann good and in the service of GOD almighty and-NOT "learn" from each other (4:1). Of course Muslims learn the good things from whomever but that is addressed elsewhere in the Quran and HAdith-after all Islam starting in 7th century learnd and in fact inherited the legacies of Byzantium and Persia and later translated Greek philopsophy into Arabic-but did not incorporate the religious practices of these faiths and cultures into Islam.Also the famous hadith of the Prophet "Seek knowledge even in China" which was "light years"away at the time.

Please note this Aya refers to the equality and unity of the human family and that its members are judjed by GOD on the merits of their deeds especially Piety;the whole Aya is meant to promote Harmony and Peace amongest the human race-compare that to Bernard Lewis's and S.Huntington's theories of the CLASH Of CIVILIZATIONs!!! I don't believe that the Aya in question refers to borrowing pratices from other faiths.

Hi Pamela,
You said "I find support for this position in the Qur'anic passage which tells us that humanity was created in tribes and nations so that we might-know each other in terms of interfacing and cooperating for the humann good and in the service of GOD almighty and-NOT "learn" from each other (4:1). Of course Muslims learn the good things from whomever but that is addressed elsewhere in the Quran and HAdith-after all Islam starting in 7th century learnd and in fact inherited the legacies of Byzantium and Persia and later translated Greek philopsophy into Arabic-but did not incorporate the religious practices of these faiths and cultures into Islam.Also the famous hadith of the Prophet "Seek knowledge even in China" which was "light years"away at the time.

Please note this Aya refers to the equality and unity of the human family and that its members are judjed by GOD on the merits of their deeds especially Piety;the whole Aya is meant to promote Harmony and Peace amongest the human race-compare that to Bernard Lewis's and S.Huntington's theories of the CLASH Of CIVILIZATIONs!!! I don't believe that the Aya in question refers to borrowing pratices from other faiths.

I don't have any problem with religions as long as you keep your religion and your god to yourself. You can believe in any book, any story and follow any ritual you want... in the privacy of your own home or in the company of fellow believers.

It becomes a problem when you start imposing YOUR god(s)... YOUR book and YOUR religious beliefs on other people. Now this can be a problem because many of YOUR books tell you to do all kinds of stuff to people who are not interested in believing YOUR god(s)! So you gotta be mindful of that and kinda ignore those bits in YOUR book. If that is a problem for you.. then YOU are a problem for everyone else. Unfortunately that is what many of you are trying to do. I wish you would just leave us alone... go read your books and talk to your God on your own.

You are free to bang your head against rocks...but don't throw the rocks at other people if they don't chose to bang their head against rocks (or choose to drown instead of banging heads against rocks :))

May your God go with you! Peace!

The Atheist

-------
BTW it seems almost pathetically arrogant of the contemporary religions to claim that their prophets are the "true" prophets and their "god" was (or is or will be) the true god. Two of three major Abrahamic religions have been around for more or less two thousand years. Judaism a few thousand years more perhaps. Think about it...Greek civilization was around atleast two thousand years before Christ. They were the most advanced people of their time with great achievements in all fields of life. And even their religious beliefs about Zeus and the gods of mount olympus didn't survive more that two thousand years. I find it amusing when books on yoga and buddhism are found in "new age" religion section in the book store. At least have the humility to accept that there are other books, other beliefs and other streams of thought which may be equally valid (or equally crazy) as YOUR book(s) and perhaps older than your book(s).

The faith of every "believer" (in allah or jehovah or whoever your god may be) here matters only as much as the faith of a greek citizen in zeus two thousand years before christ. If you faith helps you be a better person... more power to you. But let other people have their own crazy faiths.

Pamela,
Always interested in your contributions.But as a Muslim I find Islam as a way of life totally adequate;thou I fully respect all religions including Buddism and Toasim, I would be very careful in starting to borrow from this or that faith-as then I would compromize the COHERENCE and UNITY of ISLAM. As Muslims we need to learn from the pre-Islam Arabs who were originally pure monothists and followers of Abraham-and by the time the Prophet was amongest them-they had already mixed the Abrahamic beliefs with a multiplicity of gods. I trust your judjement,but I would be very careful with simultaneousely practising other faiths or parts thereof with Islam-Islam being the final divine message and the Prophet being the seal of all prophets. Am not claiming to be a scholar of Islam, but I would recommend that you speak with an islamic scholar on your thoughts above to be sure you are on the right path-no one knows every thing.Salam.

well, its a little offensive- but not that much- youre entitled to your opinion marco-
actually- if you hadnt said no offense it probably wouldnt have occurred to me to even be a tiny bit offended, actually- thats a pretty polite thing to preface a statement with

roy- the qur'an doesnt say that but- if youre still aroyund ill get back to you bout the infidel thing-

Marco Polo noted:

"Victoria:

No offense, but the Koran is as much a work of fiction as the Bible is. Both religions have gotten the message wrong. The followers also seem to have lapsed into a spiritual coma when it comes to expressing their faith in a positive way.

I say take all religious bibles(Bible, Torah, Koran, etc.,) and combine them to form one all powerful do-it-yourself book that we can pay 20 bucks to read once and never look at again. "

Bravo to this suggestion as long as we clean up the Koran by removing its references to "pretty wingy thingies" delivering messages to the "prophet", any prophecies made by said prophet and all of his dictated thoughts about killing non-believers and plundering and looting the world in the name of Allah.

Professor Crossan et al have done a great job in cleaning up the NT and the Conservative Jews along with historians and archeologists have done a great job in cleaning up the Torah. Time to "Crossanize" the Koran (and Victoria/Jihadist/Sunnis/Shiites/"Talibaners").

HL writes *This stuff comes from people who follow a primitive pagan religion and think they are better than onyone else. * Sounds like you too, HL. What is the difference between Christian extremists and Islamic extremist other than he Islamic extremists adhere to the Koran teachings that infidels are to be converted or killed?

Victoria:

No offense, but the Koran is as much a work of fiction as the Bible is. Both religions have gotten the message wrong. The followers also seem to have lapsed into a spiritual coma when it comes to expressing their faith in a positive way.

I say take all religious bibles(Bible, Torah, Koran, etc.,) and combine them to form one all powerful do-it-yourself book that we can pay 20 bucks to read once and never look at again.

Right on PEACEFORALL, right on.

soja- you said-

"The Prophets of the Old Testament claimed that God spoke to them. So there is slight difference in the way God spoke to the Prophets of the Old Testament."

you seem to be suggesting that Muhammad(pbuh) had no communication with god other than through the angel jibreel(gabriel).
and to imply there is some inferiority to the message of the Prophet(pbuh) compared to the "prophets of the OT.

this is a misunderstanding on your part.
of course the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was in direct communication with god.

it is not a competition or a "my prophet is better than your prophet".

now, you made this complaint.

"With due respect for your adherence to Islam, I would suggest that you do not make claims about a religion, namely Christianity, when you seem to know so little about it."

could equally apply-

"With due respect for your adherence to Christianity, I would suggest that you do not make claims about a religion, namely Islam, when you seem to know so little about it."

also, another misunderstanding you wrote-

"Christians do not accept Prophet Mohammad's interpretation of Jesus Christ and Christianity."

the Prophet(pbuh) purported no interpretation of christianity- Muhammad(pbuh) did not write the qur'an, or what is contained within.
it is the straight word of ALLAH- transmitted through the angel jibreel(gabriel) TO Muhammad(pbuh)

it is not the opinion or interpretation of Muhammad(pbuh).

so again, as i just reflected in the post above-
we really should try to refrain from casting aspersions at the beliefs of others-

as you bridled at others interpreting christianity for you, as a chirstian ( and possibly getting it wrong)

please extend the same respect to muslims.

It's such a shame that people are wasting all this space trying to prove which religion is right and which is not. People need to realize that we are all different and if someone wants to be a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, atheist, or whatever, they WILL be...and more power to them!

You are wasting time and energy if you try to prove a point that people don't want to hear. There is bad AND good in everyone (and yes, there are many great muslims out there contrary to popular belief). There are great people in all religions and we should all open our eyes and ears and take hold of it. Positive energy is positive energy and it can do a whole lot of good if you let it in. Why don't you just read what the author is saying and use it towards your own lives? She is not trying to convert you she is mainly stating that she has found her path in life and that may you all find yours.

Simple isn't it? A lot easier than cutting and pasting...

Quote all you want from the Koran but until the death threats to non-believers are removed and all traces of the plundering and looting agenda are removed, the Koran will remain the evil operating manual of Islam i.e. it is a sham religion. Most of its followers do so because of the threats from Islamic death squads as noted 24/7 by the conduct of Islamic countries like Iran, the "nut job Talibaners" of Afghanistan and the daily suicide bombings in Iraq.

As noted many times, the OT and NT have been properly reviewed and modernized. This is not the case with the Koran whose followers live in Dark Age superstitions and beliefs.

stephen b- you wrote-
"find they can conflict with my morals and following them would prevent me from being as good as I can be."

ill venture that if you learn more about islam as it actually is, and not how its detractors and islamophobes claim it is- you would find no disconnect from your own morals.

for instance, ALLAH,(the god) has no gender.
being neither female nor male.

i always find it is best to listen only to the practitioners of any faith and let them speak for themselves.

there is a flood of misinformation and downright lies on these blogs, its a shame, and its not possible to address each lie or personally id be on here all day long.

i think a person can recognize easily enough bad intentions or slanted thinking.

Actually, my last comment might sound negative towards Christians, which I'm not. By separating 'pagan' and 'christian' I meant to show the lovely diversity of paths we have now on this *inter-faith* forum.

Failing that, I'd like to point out how (in the use of the word 'pagan' you were presumably going for, and its original meaning) "pagan Christian" is actually a direct contradiction and oxymoron, and can't exist.

>>Anon: "you conflict with the teachings of islam"

If that was addressed to me, then yes I certainly do, quite often. I find they can conflict with my morals and following them would prevent me from being as good as I can be.

Quite a few Christian "teachings" do this as well of course, and I ignore them too. You'll find it's mostly the stuff that the religious organisations put in about how you should being intolerant to people who aren't of your particular path of your sect of your faith. Or any of the parts which preach or celebrate violence, which both books have plenty of. "Teachings" is a big word, and usually means arguing about specifics instead of concentrating on not being an asshat.

a salaamu alaikum jihadist, and pamela too of course.

detachment can and has been an excuse for some people to lapse into apathy or complacency.
obviously we are not to detach ourselves from our caring hearts, but from the vagaries of passions that carry us to unreasonable and emotion driven behavior.(clearly those who sink into apathy are abusing their own religion to justify their own inclinations)
while islam itself compels us to address injustices, and fight against the oppressive tyrant- this assures us that complacency cannot become a part of our religion.

Islam is the middle way.

when something good happens to me i say "alhamdoulila" (thank god)

when something bad happens to me i say "alhamdoulila"

when something good happens tome i say "alhamdoulila"

when something bad happens to me i say "alhamdoulila"...........................

Pam said.."To me, my path is clear; I can only hope it is equally clear to others."

What you've said has helped me so much. There are many, many, many paths to god. Islam is only one and you admit not the only one.

My mind is becoming so open. Thank you.

Happiness.

...so that we might learn from each other(4.1)
Correct,let me give you some examples.

And lead us not into temptation,but deliver us from the evil one.Matthew 6.13
Show us the straight path,not the path of those who earn Your anger(evil).Quran 1.6-7

Namaz(salah or salat) adapted from Hinduism.Muslim must worship in arabic language 150 times in a month.This is absolutely brainwash.

Hajj.House of Allah.Temple in Jerusalem was the House of God as well.

Circumcision is adaptation from Judaism

Ramadan(fasting) and not-eating pork are also copied from Judaism.

Tasbih(prayer beads),persian origin before islam.Laziness.Tak,tak,tak.Some enightened muslim scholars sharply criticize it.

All of you forget Mevlana whirling dervishes,sufi dance.
Who knows about Whirling Dervishes,worship in form of dance and music ceremony

Just follow Yoga and your concience. That is sufficient to take care of all your spiritual and moral needs. Who needs religion and its army of pastors, mullahs and pundits?

Steve B-

"Watching you quote texts at each other is hysterical, by the way."

Do I hear the strains of "Dueling Bibles"?

you conflict with the teachings of islam

>>HL said:
"It is a custom and a habit of you pagan Christians"

The pagans on here would rather you didn't associate us with Christians. Pagan defines a new group of people these days, please catch up.

Watching you quote texts at each other is hysterical, by the way.

>>Pamela K. Taylor said:
"my fundamental aim is a life in resonance with the Divine, a life in concord with the natural order of the Universe"

I like this. Closer experience with the Divine can be a rewarding and positive thing, and I'm in favour of it in any religion (it's the other parts of various religions I have problems with). I've found Buddhism and Taoism excellent to explore as well.

My hesitation would be when the person is seeking to align themselves so closely with 'the natural order of the Universe' just because a book or religion told them to, 'or else'. And told them exactly what the natural order IS.

In celebration, in joy, for the mystic feeling, yes. Because (a male) God told his people to worship him this way or be punished, no.

HL,

You said: "It is a custom and a habit of you pagan Christians"

Before labeling people as Christians, what is about the words "All religion is a scam. All religion is primitive. Please wise up" that you don't understand?

What is it about the words "You have a conscience which you can follow. You don’t need to follow any religion. It’s all a scam. Haven’t you worked that out yet? Wise up" that you don't understand?

Why do you persist in quoting the Christian scriptures to defend against my arguments? You're making yourself look very silly indeed.

You don't need to follow any religion, because it's all a scam. Smart people see through the scam, but followers are weak minded human beings who NEED to follow. The strong minded don't follow anyone. They think for themselves. They don't need ANY religion to tell them what food they can eat, or how they should dress, or who they can marry. They're smart enough to be able to make all these decisions for themselves. They listen ONLY to their own conscience, and lead good, ethical and principled lives.

You don't need to follow an ancient paedophile, rapist, murderer, racist, homophobe and woman hater. You've been duped. You've been scammed. It's all a con HL, including Christianity. Wise up. Don't be a follower. Think for yourself. Don't be so gullible.

Ms. Pamela Taylor

Assalam mualaikum,

You must forgive my first post in this thread on Buddhist "detachment". Living in Southeast Asia and being too aware of trafficking in women and children as well as their sexual exploitation do get to me, particularly when my Thai friends tells me that some parents in the poorer parts of Thailand willingly and knowingly made a "contract" to give their daughters away for such "occupation" to supplement their incomes. And after the stipulated time, the women do use their savings for legitimate purposes such as opening restaurants, beauty shops/hairdressing saloons, tailoring/seamstresses/dressmakers or massage parlours etc. It makes transnational stemming of this expoiltation of women a bit more difficult for Southeast Asian NGOs involved no matter how much awareness programme is put in place and alternate occupations offered by way of training.

That aside, I completely agree with you on the need for "detachment" to objectively look within. Indonesian and Malaysian Muslim organizations are very diversified, from the progressives to the conservatives. They acted as check and balances on one another's "excesses" as they deem it and do act as pressure groups on their respective governments.

As for Buddhism in Indonesia and Malaysia, there is no instances of conflicts. As you know, Indonesians and Malaysians were historically animists, Hindus and Buddhists before becoming Muslims and elements of all were incorporated in daily lives, including the marraige ceremonies and in art. Elements of Hinduism and Buddhism remains strong in the cultural and social life of Indonesian and Malaysian Muslims. Ramayana is manifested into dance drama that remains popular as a cultural form. Of course there are Muslim "purists" who seek to purge all elements of Hindu traditions from Muslim practices in Indonesia and Malaysia.

And for Indonesian and Malaysian Muslims, they are not quite meditative or mystical nowadays, seeking to translate their Islamic beliefs into prectical action. My country of adoption by marraige, Malaysia seek to make itself into a Islamic banking and halal hub. My country of origin, indonesia, is actively projecting itself as the biggest democratic country in the Islamic world. I straddle both countries emoptionally, culturally and religiously still by near distance and easy access of air transportation.

Muslim women in both countries are active in seeking to redress and address the state of women in all spheres. But, what I find interesting about Malaysia is that, 60% of all students in college are women and they regularly outperformed men academically. Culturally, Muslim women in Indonesia and Nalaysia seems to have an easier time than their sisters in the Middle East. But there are pockets of very noisy Muslim fanatics and bigots that we all have to remain vigilant of before they make headway in the state policies of both countries on Islam.

Lucky for us, the governments of both Indonesia and Malaysia are by the vote. But much remains to be done on human rights for all in both the civil and Shariah laws and courts of both countries. We can't afford to hide and run away. We can't afford to be detach from the issues, but to be detached emotionally and to be very patient in dealing with them as you've said.

Salam and regards as ever

Jihadist,

I've been meaning to reply to your thoughts about detachment, but have been on vacation this past week, so please pardom my late response.

As I understand it, detachment is not to be confused with indifference or some feel good hyper-tolerance. Indeed, the individuals with the most perfect detachment (The Buddha, the Boddhisattvas) are the most compassionate to the miseries of humanity , and defer their own nirvana in order to help others escape the cycle of suffering.

In my own life, detachment helps me deal with anger, impatience, and frustration that would make me withdraw from many situations. For instance, I find the deplorable conditions many, many Muslim women (and men) live under to be very distressing. I find the attitudes and actions of many Muslims, and so-called Muslim governments, to be intolerable. My initial response is either to run away -- to say it these situations are too painful to deal with -- or to hide -- to say, I have nothing to do with these people, why should I become embroiled in their business, and what right do they have to impact the way others see me? By maintaining a certain level of detachment, I'm empowered to act to change the situation, to struggle for justice and compassion in the world.

I find similar attitudes within Islam -- the prophet said we should be like strangers in the land, and yet, advised us to treat all with compassion and to stand for justice wherever we find injustice.

That some folks use concepts of detachment to justify callous disregard should not hinder us from seeking the wisdom in Buddhism, just as the fact that some folks seek to use the Qur'an to justify terrible crimes should not hinder us from seeking the wisdom within it.

Ms Pamela Taylor

Assalam mualaikum

I had not meant to read On Faith nowadays, but I find your articles very interesting and can never resist looking up what you have written in spite of other priorities.

No one can find anything wrong with Buddhist precepts as moral and ethical guidelines, believers of religion/God or otherwise. Buddhist precepts fits right in and are not contradictory with a Muslim's quest for personal piety.

As a Muslim, I already find the five daily solat (prayers) meditative and contemplative. And there is, of course, the tasbeh (prayer beads) for specific purposes. Many find invoking the Ninety Names (characteristics) of God, or just to say Subha Allah while using the prayer beads to keep time and tempo also meditative.

Peace be with you and regards as always

HL:

And one more thing, please do not quote from the Old Testament to give examples of any Christian teaching or behaviour. Christians, as you rightly mentioned, worship Jesus Christ as the Son of God. So the New Testament is our Scripture, from time of the birth of Jesus. The Old Testament tells us about the time BEFORE Jesus was born, about the prophesies of His coming and how God prepared the Jewish people for His coming etc.

Even as long ago as the time of Moses, one of the GOD GIVEN Commandments were: THOU SHALT NOT KILL!

If you refer to Christianity as a violent religion, please read the New Testament and try to locate any teaching of Jesus Christ or anything in His life that justifies such an accusation. Jesus lived a perfect and sinless life. He was crucified for no other reason than that He called Himself the Son of God.

It is true that Christians in positions of power have SOMETIMES misused their power and have sometimes done terrible wrong believing that they were doing what was right. But that has nothing to do with what Jesus taught, or how He lived. Christians do not condone or justify such wrong doing. We see it for what it is. If every Christian had followed the teaching and example of Jesus, there would have been no killing or any other kind of atrocity.

HL:

With due respect for your adherence to Islam, I would suggest that you do not make claims about a religion, namely Christianity, when you seem to know so little about it. Christians do not accept Prophet Mohammad's interpretation of Jesus Christ and Christianity, or whatever may be written in the Quran. It is not our Scripture and therefore we are not interested in correcting the Islamic view of it. You are however welcome to believe anything you like.

Christians do believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, because He said so; because the Jewish Prophets spoke of His coming for many centuries. Hindus believe that God can take human form, incarnate as man. God is the Creator of this vast universe, remember, and He has the power to do anything He wants. Prophet Mohammad is not the one to decide what God may or may not do. Please remember Prophet Mohammad never claimed to be God. He claimed only that an angel spoke to him. The Prophets of the Old Testament claimed that God spoke to them. So there is slight difference in the way God spoke to the Prophets of the Old Testament. It was the Prophets of the Old Testament who claimed that God spoke to them, who prophesied that God would take human form and become the Saviour of the world.

All this may not fit with the Islamic view. No Christian demands that it should.

So Mr missionary guy you got nothing you can offer me except blasphemous doctrines and creeds and a primitive religion that Jesus himself would never have claimed or subscribed to.

The state of some Jews at the time of Muhammad is discussed here. Some say the Quran is a little harsh when talking about our cousins the Jews. But, all you have to do is read the book of Jeremiah, which bible scholars claim is the least one to go through manipulation and tamepring.) Also, the NT calls them snakes and brood of vipers and Jesus told them, in the book of John, that their father is the devil, lucifer himself.

003.112 Shame is pitched over them(Like a tent) wherever they are found, except when under a covenant (of protection) from God and from men; they draw on themselves wrath from God, and pitched over them is (the tent of) destitution. This because they rejected the Signs of God, and slew the prophets in defiance of right; this because they rebelled and transgressed beyond bounds.
003.113 Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. 003.114 They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. 003.115 Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knoweth well those that do right.

5:17. In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then has the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He creates what He pleases. For God has power over all things." 5:18. (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of God, and his beloved." Say: "Why then does He punish you for your sins? Nay, you are but men,- of the men he has created: He forgives whom He pleases, and He punishes whom He pleases: and to God belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)" 5:19. O People of the Book! Now has come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) our Messengers, lest ye should say: "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner ": But now has come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And God has power over all things.

057.026 And We sent Noah and Abraham, and established in their line Prophethood and Revelation: and some of them were on right guidance. But many of them became rebellious transgressors. 057.027 Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our Messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of God; but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors. 057.028 O ye that believe! Fear God, and believe in His Messenger, and He will bestow on you a double portion of His Mercy: He will provide for you a Light by which ye shall walk (straight in your path), and He will forgive you (your past): for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. 057.029 That the People of the Book may know that they have no power whatever over the Grace of God, that (His) Grace is (entirely) in His Hand, to bestow it on whomsoever He wills. For God is the Lord of Grace abounding.

In the time of Muhammad, some of the Jews were really hostile to the small Muslim communtiy and there were some Christian tribes who were not as hostile as the Quran tells us.

5:82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. 83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses. 84. "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?" 85. And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath,- their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good. 86. But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs,- they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

The author of the Quran is not Muhammad. It is clearly stated that the author is God but the Christians insist that it is Muhammad’s words. I don’t see how any one can be as generous towards any other religion as Islam is to Judaism and Christianity. The Quran, as a holy revealed scripture, repeatedly reminds Muslims that what they are hearing is not a new message but the “confirmation of previous scriptures” (12:111). In fact, the Quran proposes the unprecedented notion that all revealed scriptures are derived from a single source. That means that as far as Muhammad understood. The Torah, The Gospels, and the Quran must be read as a single, cohesive narrative about humanity’s relationship to God, in which the prophetic consciousness of one prophet is passed spiritually to the next: from Adam to Muhammad. Of Course, we Muslims believe that the Quran is the final revelation in this sequence of scriptures, just as we believe Muhammad to be the “Seal of the Prophets.” But the Quran never claims to annul the previous scriptures, only to complete them. And the notion of one scripture giving authenticity to others is, to say the least, a remarkable event in the history of religions.

002.111 And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if you are truthful." 002.112 Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 002.113 The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.

002.119 Verily We have sent you in truth as a bearer of glad tidings and a warner: But of you no question shall be asked of the Companions of the Blazing Fire. 002.120 Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with you unless you follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of God,-that is the (only) Guidance." Were you to follow their desires after the knowledge which has reached you, then would you find neither Protector nor helper against God. 002.121 Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as it should be studied: They are the ones that believe therein: Those who reject faith therein,- the loss is their own.

002.133 Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma’il and Isaac,- the one (True) God: To Him we submit and bow down (in Islam)." 002.134 That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case! 002.135 They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with God." 002.136 Say ye: "We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we submit and bow down to God (in Islam)."
002.137 So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but God will suffice thee as against them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

002.139 Say: Will you dispute with us about God, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and you for yours; and that We are sincere (in our faith) in Him?

002.186 When My servants ask you concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calls on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way.

The Christians believe that Jesus is God or part of god commitee. So he is responsible for instructing the killing and the genocide of the infants, the women and the animals as recorded in OT. It is the exact breathed the word of God like they say.
The actions of Muhammad were in the spirit of self defense and I as a Muslim do not have any problem with fighting for self preservation and peace. Why don't research the events that took place and look at them with an objective point of view not just reading the polemic works of the Christians who have an ax to grind against the Muslims and try to discredit Muhammad any chance they get.

To HL:

I am an unbeliever, not a Christian, Jew, Buddhist or Hindu.
Indeed there are many violent passages in the Old Testament. The difference between those violent passages in the Old Testament and similar violent passages in the Koran, is that, except for a very small minority of Jewish fundamentalists, the overwhelming majority of practicing Jews do not look to those passages to guide their behavior in the present. Those events are part of their history, but they would not look to Moses' behavior in war as a guide to their behavior in the present. So they selectively read the Old Testament, taking out the positive, and leaving the negative. They understand that the stories in the Old Testament are from several thousand years ago, and behavior that was the norm at that time is not appropriate today.
As for the New Testament, Jesus never engaged in warfare, and any violent behavior of people who called themselves his followers, is a distortion of his teachings, not a fulfillment of his teachings. The core teachings of Christianity are non-violent. The fact that followers have distorted these teachings over the centuries does not negate the fact that the actually teachings of Jesus were non-violent.
The difference that I see between Islam on the one hand, and Judaism and Christianity on the other, is:
1. Muslims regard the behavior of Muhammed, both the violent and the non-violent, as guides to action in the present. Most Jews do not regard the events in the Old Testament as guides to their behavior in the present.
2. Unlike Jesus, there are many recorded instances of violent behavior on the part of Muhammed. Jesus never talked about jihad, apostates, he did not take slaves, he did not engage in warfare, he did not have anyone beheaded, he did not cut off peoples' hands and feet. All of these things were done by Muhammed, and to an outside observer like myself, Muhammed comes across as a tyrant, rather than a person whose behavior is worth following. So even though I am not a Christian, I can see why someone might look to Jesus as a guide for behavior, but I don't understand why people look to someone like Muhammed as a guide to behavior. Maybe you can look to Muhammed, because you just read the beautiful things in the Koran and ignore the not-so-beautiful things, but then my question is:If the Koran is the word of God, how can you then ignore part of what is in it?

More condoned killings of the innocent ordered by the lord of hosts or is that Jesus himself. Mybe you pagan missioanry can tell us which of the three ordered this cold blooded massacre.

Numbers 31
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. 3And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian. 4Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war. 5So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. 6And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.7And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. 8And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. 9And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. 10And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. 11And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. 12And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho. 13And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp. 14And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. 15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Killing is sanctined and condoned by the lord of hosts in the good book which the pagan christians believe is the word of God:

1 Samuel 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 15:4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah. 15:5 And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley. 15:6 And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. 15:7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt. 15:8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.

This is how Christians understand God to be: some kind of supernatural person who who rides on angles and have fire and somke coming out of his nostrels:

2Samuel:7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears. 8Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth. 9There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. 10He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet. 11And he rode upon a cherub(some tpye of angels), and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind. 12And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies. 13Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled. 14The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice. 15And he sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them.

More wisdom from the good book:

Deuteronomy 23:1He that is wounded in the stones(testicals), or hath his privy member(penis) cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. 2A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

Deuteronomy 23:11 “If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the genitals, 12 then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall not pity her

Qur’an Chapter 2 Verse 193:
And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

This ‘revelation’ was received whilst Islam was very weak, at the beginning of Muhammad’s prophetic career. The Qur’an has 114 Chapters, and this verse was revealed in the second chapter, when Muhammad needed to be careful not to upset the Jews, Christians and Pagans whom he lived amongst. The meaning of this verse, however, was that the Jews, Christians & Pagans were oppressed people who needed freeing from their oppressors by Muhammad and his new religion. Later verses became far more clear and far more blatant. Moderate Muslims often quote early verses such as this, in an attempt to try to convince naïve non-Muslims who lack knowledge of Islam that Islam is peaceful.

missionary guy,you failed to mention and back up your claim with factual dates when this section of the holy Quran was revealed. It is a custom and a habit of you pagan Christians to try to rewrite our history and some of you went as far as trying to reorganize the order of the chapters in the Quran. It never ceases to amaze me how they try to fabricate reasons of certain events and try to put a spin on them contarary to facts and historical facts. The holy Quran was revealed in the span of twenty three years. The above verses were not revealed at the beginning of Muhammad ministry. Acutally it was revealed well into his ministry, minimum fifteen years have passed since the first revelation.

How Muhammad Persuaded Muslims To Fight:

The following verses from the Qur’an reveal how Muhammad persuaded Muslims to risk their lives fighting against the infidels in the cause of spreading Islam.

Qur’an Chapter 2 Verse 193:
And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

This ‘revelation’ was received whilst Islam was very weak, at the beginning of Muhammad’s prophetic career. The Qur’an has 114 Chapters, and this verse was revealed in the second chapter, when Muhammad needed to be careful not to upset the Jews, Christians and Pagans whom he lived amongst. The meaning of this verse, however, was that the Jews, Christians & Pagans were oppressed people who needed freeing from their oppressors by Muhammad and his new religion. Later verses became far more clear and far more blatant. Moderate Muslims often quote early verses such as this, in an attempt to try to convince naïve non-Muslims who lack knowledge of Islam that Islam is peaceful.

Qur’an Chapter 4 Verse 75:
And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

This ‘revelation’ helped Muhammad to persuade Muslims that Jews, Christians and Pagans would be much better off living under Muhammad and Islamic law, and helped convinced Muslims that non-Muslims were currently being oppressed by their own leaders. In truth, Jews were quite happy being Jewish, and Christians were quite happy being Christian, and Pagans were quite happy being Pagan. They didn’t want Muslims to impose Islam upon them and rape their women as punishment for not listening to Muhammad.

Qur’an Chapter 4 Verse 76:
Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.

Imagine you are a Muslim, and believe this is the world of god; this says that all non-Muslims are friends of Satan, which means that you don’t need to feel any guilt when you kill these friends of Satan, or rape the women.

Qur’an Chapter 4 Verse 84:
Then fight in Allah's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.

This verse was intended to convince Muslims that Allah would make unbelievers into weak fighters, meaning that it would be easier for Muslims to kill unbelievers.

Qur’an Chapter 8 Verse 65:
O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding. [According to this verse, ‘Allah’ is saying that he will give each Muslim the strength to kill ten non-Muslims]

Qur’an Chapter 9 Verse 38:
O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. [Here, ‘Allah’ is saying that life after death is much better than life on Earth, so fight the unbelievers and risk death in battle]

Qur’an Chapter 9 Verse 39:
Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things. [‘Allah’ is getting angry now, and is threatening Muslims who don’t fight the unbelievers, with a grievous penalty]

Qur’an Chapter 9 Verse 41:
Go ye forth, (whether equipped) lightly or heavily, and strive and struggle, with your goods and your persons, in the cause of Allah. That is best for you, if ye (but) knew.

Qur’an Chapter 9 Verse 81:
Those who were left behind (in the Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah: they hated to strive and fight, with their goods and their persons, in the cause of Allah: they said, "Go not forth in the heat." Say, "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat." If only they could understand! [‘Allah’ warns Muslims who don’t fight that they’re going to be punished]

Qur’an Chapter 9 Verse 83:
If, then, Allah bring thee back to any of them, and they ask thy permission to come out (with thee), say: "Never shall ye come out with me, nor fight an enemy with me: for ye preferred to sit inactive on the first occasion: Then sit ye (now) with those who lag behind."

Qur’an Chapter 9 Verse 90:
And there were, among the desert Arabs (also), men who made excuses and came to claim exemption; and those who were false to Allah and His Messenger (merely) sat inactive. Soon will a grievous penalty seize the Unbelievers among them.

Qur’an Chapter 9 Verse 111:
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Qur’an Chapter 9 Verse 123:
O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about (those who live near to you), and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

Qur’an Chapter 48 Verse 16:
Say to the desert Arabs who lagged behind: "Ye shall be summoned (to fight) against a people given to vehement war: then shall ye fight, or they shall submit. Then if ye show obedience, Allah will grant you a goodly reward, but if ye turn back as ye did before, He will punish you with a grievous Penalty." [Muslims who fight and kill infidels will be rewarded either in this life with war booty or in the next life with 72 virgins, but those who lag behind so as to avoid fighting will be severely punished by Allah]

Qur’an Chapter 48 Verse 22:
If the Unbelievers should fight you, they would certainly turn their backs; then would they find neither protector nor helper.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 40:
Narrated Abu Huraira: ‘Allah's Apostle said, "If any one of you improve (follows strictly) his Islamic religion then his good deeds will be rewarded ten times to seven hundred times for each good deed and a bad deed will be recorded as it is."’ [Muslims who follow Muhammad’s teachings will be greatly rewarded]

Once Islam became strong, Muhammad ordered at least 47 military attacks on Jews, Christians and Pagans. He himself commanded 27, known as ‘ghazwat’, and in nine of these ghazwats, he fought in person and sometimes suffered injuries. According to the Islamic belief system, the texts below abrogate the earlier peaceable texts:

Qur’an Chapter 9 Verse 3:
Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, No 193:
Narrated Anas: ‘Whenever Allah's Apostle attacked some people, he would never attack them till it was dawn.’

Abu-Dawud Book 14, Number 2632:
Narrated Salamah ibn al-Akwa': ‘The Apostle of Allah appointed Abu Bakr our commander and we fought with some people who were polytheists, and we attacked them at night, killing them. Our war-cry that night was "put to death; put to death." Salamah said: “I killed that night with my hand polytheists belonging to seven houses.”’

Qur’an Chapter 22 Verse 45:
How many populations have We destroyed, which were given to wrong-doing? They tumbled down on their roofs. And how many wells are lying idle and neglected, and castles lofty and well-built?

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4294:
…When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhajirs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muslims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' (land conquered without war, due to the people fleeing out of fear before being attacked) except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya (tax on non-Muslims). If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them… [Accept Islam or be evicted from your land, or agree to pay an extortion tax, or be killed. Not much of a choice]

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4421:
…When the Prophet had finished his prayer, he invoked god's imprecations upon them (the pagan Quraish tribe) in a loud voice. When he prayed, he prayed thrice, and when he asked for god's blessings, he asked thrice. Then he said thrice: “O Allah, it is for Thee to deal with the Quraish.” When they heard his voice, laughter vanished from them and they feared his malediction. Then he said: “O god, it is for Thee to deal with Abu Jahl b. Hisham, 'Utba b. Rabi'a, Shaiba b. Rabi'a. Walid b. Uqba, Umayya b. Khalaf, Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait.” By One Who sent Muhammad with truth, I saw (all) those he had named lying slain on the Day of Badr. Their dead bodies were dragged to be thrown into a pit... [Muhammad’s followers made sure that the men Muhammad wanted dead were killed]

Sahih Abu Dawud Book 19, Number 3040:
Narrated Ubaydullah: ‘Harb ibn Ubaydullah told on the authority of his grandfather, his mother's father, that he had it on the authority of his father that the Apostle of Allah said: “Tithes (taxes) are to be levied on Jews and Christians, but not on Muslims.”’ [Teaches inequality, subjugation and extortion]

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 30, Number 95:
Narrated Abu Huraira: ‘Allah's Apostle said, "I was ordered to migrate to a town which will swallow (conquer) other towns and is called Yathrib and that is Medina, and it turns out (bad) persons as a furnace removes the impurities of iron.’ [Muhammad was initially invited to Yathrib to act as an arbitrator between warring tribes. He quickly ‘removed’ anyone he considered ‘bad’ until he ruled Yathrib unopposed, whereupon he changed the name of the town to ‘Al-Madinah an-Nabi’, meaning ‘City of the Prophet’ and evicted anyone who refused to submit to Islam. Medina, as it became known, became his base]

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 50, Number 891:
Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama and Marwan: ‘…Abu Jandal bin Suhail got himself released from them (i.e. infidels) and joined Abu Basir. So, whenever a man from Quraish embraced Islam he would follow Abu Basir till they formed a strong group. By Allah, whenever they heard about a caravan of Quraish heading towards Sham, they stopped it and attacked and killed them (infidels) and took their properties…’ [Muhammad forced many tribes to submit to Islam through attacking all their trade routes. These tribes either starved to death, or were forced off their land, allowing Muslims to conquer their land without war, or they agreed to submit to Islam and became Muslim]

Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 89, Number 291:
Narrated 'Aisha: ‘Hind (bint 'Utba) said to the Prophet "Abu Sufyan is a miserly man and I need to take some money of his wealth." The Prophet said, "Take reasonably what is sufficient for you and your children "’

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4438:
Anas narrates: “We encountered the people at sunrise when they had come out with their axes, spades and strings driving their cattle along. They shouted in surprise: Muhammad has come along with his force! The Messenger of Allah said: Khaibar shall face destruction”

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4437:
It has been narrated on the authority of Anas that the Messenger of Allah raided Khaibar. One morning we offered prayers in the darkness of early dawn (near Khaibar). Then the Messenger of Allah mounted (his horse). Abu Talha mounted his and I mounted behind Abu Talha on the same horse. The Prophet of Allah rode through the streets of Khaibar and (I rode so close to him) that my knee touched the thigh of the Prophet of Allah. The wrapper got aside from his thigh, and I could see its whiteness. When he entered the town, he said: god is Great. Khaibar shall face destruction. When we descend in the city-square of a people, it is a bad day for them who have been warned (and have not taken heed). He said these words thrice. The people of the town had just come out from (their houses) to go about their jobs. They said (in surprise): Muhammad has come. We captured Khaibar by force.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 351:
Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah: ‘Allah's Apostle said, "Booty has been made legal for me."’ [‘Booty’ means spoils of war, and included women, children, land, property, currency, animals and possessions]

Sahih Abu Dawud Book 14, Number 2779:
Narrated a man from the Companions of the Prophet: ‘Ubaydullah ibn Salman reported on the authority of a man from the Companions of the Prophet: When we conquered Khaybar, they (the Muslims) took out their spoils which contained equipment and captives. The people began to buy and sell their spoils (female captives were sold into sexual slavery). When the Apostle of Allah prayed, a man came to him and said: Apostle of Allah, I have gained today so much so that no one gained from this valley. He asked: Woe unto you, how much did you gain? He replied: I kept on selling and buying until I gained three hundred uqiyahs...’

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 793:
…The Prophet further said. "If you should live long, the treasures of Khosrau will be opened (and taken as spoils)." I asked, "You mean Khosrau, son of Hurmuz?" He said, "Khosrau, son of Hurmuz; and if you should live long, you will see that one will carry a handful of gold or silver and go out looking for a person to accept it from him, but will find none to accept it from him… [Muhammad promised that no one would accept a handful of gold, because every Muslim would already be incredibly rich from war booty]

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 67, Number 451:
Narrated Rait' bin Khadij: ‘The quick ones among the people got the war booty while the Prophet was behind the people. So they placed the cooking pots on the fire, but the Prophet ordered the cooking pots to be turned upside down. Then he distributed (the war booty) among them, considering one camel as equal to ten sheep.’

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 276:
Narrated Al-Bara bin Azib: ‘The Prophet appointed 'Abdullah bin Jubair as the commander of the infantry men (archers) who were fifty on the day (of the battle) of Uhud. He instructed them, "Stick to your place, and don't leave it even if you see birds snatching us, till I send for you; and if you see that we have defeated the infidels and made them flee, even then you should not leave your place till I send for you." Then the infidels were defeated. By Allah, I saw the women fleeing lifting up their clothes revealing their leg-bangles and their legs. So, the companions of 'Abdullah bin Jubair said, "The booty! O people, the booty ! Your companions have become victorious, what are you waiting for now?" 'Abdullah bin Jubair said, "Have you forgotten what Allah's Apostle said to you?" They replied, "By Allah! We will go to the people (the enemy) and collect our share from the war booty." But when they went to them, they were forced to turn back defeated. At that time Allah's Apostle in their rear was calling them back. Only twelve men remained with the Prophet and the infidels martyred seventy men from us.’ [The Muslim fighters thought they’d won the battle as soon as they saw the infidel women running for their lives. These women believed that they were about to become war booty (meaning they would be raped). The Muslims miscalculated on this occasion, and were too keen to get at the fleeing women. Their haste cost the lives of 70 of their men]

Sahih Abu Dawud Book 14, Number 2737:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar: The Apostle of Allah sent a detachment to Najd. I went out along with them, and got abundant riches. Our commander gave each of us a camel as a reward. We then came upon the Apostle of Allah and he divided the spoils of war among us. Each of us received twelve camels after taking a fifth of it (Muhammad kept a fifth). The Apostle of Allah did not take account of our companion (the commander of the army), nor did he blame him for what he had done. Thus each man of us had received thirteen camels with the reward he gave.

ANSWERING ISLAM - OFFENSIVE WAR TO SPREAD ISLAM
http://answering-islam.org.uk/BehindVeil/btv2.html

"In his book, "Jurisprudence in Muhammad’s Biography", the Azhar scholar, Dr. Muhammad Sa’id Ramadan al-Buti says the following (page 134, 7th edition): "The Holy War, as it is known in Islamic Jurisprudence, is basically an offensive war. This is the duty of Muslims in every age when the needed military power becomes available to them. This is the phase in which the meaning of Holy War has taken its final form. Thus the apostle of god said: ‘I was commanded to fight the people until they believe in god and his message ..."’ Dr. Buti deduces from Muhammad’s statement that this is the concept of offensive war—this is Holy War as it is known in Islamic jurisprudence. Notice by his statement also that this matter is a duty incumbent on every Muslim in every age. The time will come when East and West, as well as politicians and military personnel all over the world will realize that the real military danger is the Islamic community. When the needed military power becomes available to them, they will wage wars and invade other countries!" [Please note that Sir Winson Churchill’s views agreed with these conclusions]

IS ISLAM COMPATIBLE WITH THE WEST?
BBC NEWS – 8th September 2005
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4204820.stm

"As extremists increasingly claim it is not, and attack Western values not only through rhetoric but acts of violence, many Muslims find themselves being forced to respond by re-examining their values. […] Nagina Shah, who walked away from her faith and family 14 years ago after a forced marriage, believes that traditional Islam and modern Western life do not mix. […] “I moved away from Leeds and lived in a hostel for a while. I worked at the same time as going to college where I studied for my GCSEs and then A levels. I later went on to read engineering at university. When I was staying in the hostel, I met many other young Asian girls like me. It was tragic because they wanted to break away from their families but they kept on going home and getting into a total mess. There must be lots of other men and women who want to break away from their culture. I now want to help other British Muslims who face a similar situation to me.” […] “The Eastern and Western cultures are so extremely different that it is difficult to find middle ground.” […] “The danger of organised religion is that they all teach exclusivity and preach that theirs is the one true faith. To have one true faith means that all other faiths are wrong, hence the fighting we see around the world. I believe the only way we will achieve peace and mutual respect on this planet is if we are all willing to change our beliefs. I am not saying we should completely throw away our belief systems but what we need to do is let go of the beliefs that no longer work and keep the ones that do.”"

HL,

You said: "So, please do us a favor and learn something firt before you start putting forward stupid and ignoramous arguments that can refuted by just reading the whole chapter."

Are you not aware that the context of the Qur'an isn't to be found in the Qur'an, because the verses were arranged in order of length rather than chronology?

Any Muslim scholar knows that the context to the Qur'an can only be found in the hadith, which reveal the background to the Quranic verses, and enable the chronological order of the verses to be established.

Please spend a few more years studying, including all the historical documents of the time, before attempting to debate with people who already have many years of study behind them, otherwise you will make yourself appear very silly.

You attempt to declare the Sahih hadith as false. Are you not aware that a Sharia law court would consider this blasphemy in many countries and you could be put to death for that by your own cult?

It is also interesting that after rubbishing the historical accuracy of the sahih hadith you then try to use the hadith to counter my arguments, yet you don't seem to have noticed that many Islamic countries have laws which punish apostates and blasphemers with death, in accordance with the cult leader's teachings. The very fact that these laws exist destroys your arguments.

In the hadith which you quote all you are proving is that the cult leader did indeed teach the cult members to believe that the cult was oppressed and needed to fight oppression. He was manipulating the gullible people of his time into attacking the unbelievers. They, and you, were just unable to see through his psychology.

This is what God says in the Quran concerning the free will of people to accept or reject what Muhammad was commended to preach:

010.099 If it had been thy Lord’s will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!

109.001 Say : O ye that reject Faith! 109.002 I worship not that which ye worship, 109.003 Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 109.004 And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, 109.005 Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 109.006 To you be your Way, and to me mine.

002.256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.

051.050 Hasten ye then (at once) to God: I am from Him a Warner to you, clear and open! 051.051 And make not another an object of worship with God: I am from Him a Warner to you, clear and open! 051.052 Similarly, no Messenger came to the Peoples before them, but they said (of him) in like manner, "A sorcerer, or one possessed"! 051.053 Is this the legacy they have transmitted, one to another? Nay, they are themselves a people transgressing beyond bounds! 051.054 So turn away from them: not thine is the blame. 051.055 But teach (thy Message) for teaching benefits the Believers.

5:54. O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith(irtadda-or apostate), soon will God produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of God, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of God, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And God encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.

I don’t see any command to kill apostates or anyone who rejected Muhammad’s message in those verses when there was the opportunity to say so.

You mentioned verse 4:89, here is the paragraph in context:

004.087 God! There is no god but He: of a surety He will gather you together against the Day of Judgment, about which there is no doubt. And whose word can be truer than God’s? 004.088 Why should ye be divided into two parties about the HYPOCRITES? God hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom God hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom God hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way. 004.089 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;- 004.090 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then God Hath opened no way for you (to war against them). 004.091 Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.

It is true that some verses in the Quran instructs Muhammad and his followers to “slay the polytheists where ever you confront them” (9:5); to “carry the struggle to the hypocrites who deny the faith” (9:73); and especially, to “fight those who do not believe in God and the Last Day” (9:29). However, it must be understood that these verses were directed specially at the Quraysh(the old nemesis and Muhammad original tribe)and their clandestine partisans in Yathrib(now known simply as Medina)-specially named in the Quran as “the polytheist” and “the hypocrites,” respectively-with whom the Muslim community was locked in a terrible war. The above verses should be read as such.

Sometimes wars have to be fought for self defense and God tells the Muslim community in Medina how they should behave when they have no choice in such situations.

002.190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. 002.191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. 002.192 But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. 002.193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.

002.217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

022.039 To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, God is most powerful for their aid;- 022.040 (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is God". Did not God check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of God is commemorated in abundant measure. God will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily God is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will). 022.041 (They are) those who, if We establish them in the land, establish regular prayer and give regular charity, enjoin the right and forbid wrong: with God rests the end (and decision) of (all) affairs.

018.027 And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him. 018.028 And keep thy soul content with those who call on their Lord morning and evening, seeking His Face; and let not thine eyes pass beyond them, seeking the pomp and glitter of this Life; no obey any whose heart We have permitted to neglect the remembrance of Us, one who follows his own desires, whose case has gone beyond all bounds. 018.029 Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on! 018.030 As to those who believe and work righteousness, verily We shall not suffer to perish the reward of any who do a (single) righteous deed. 018.031 For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade: They will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on!

I bet you would like us to have the problem of worshiping a man. If the tables were turned and we were worshiping Muhammad, you would say: what's the matter with you fools, you worship a man who can do no good for you and can not harm you. But that's what you all Christians. Follow some pagan religion. Face the music Jesus can not do you any good nor can he harm you. Why don't come to your senses and repent before it is too late for you. When you meet your maker and find out Jesus ain't lord nor a demi god you will not be able to have a second chance and you will have only yourslef to blame.

Copy and paste, and more copy and paste. Why don't you stick to one subject and we will satisfy your deceitful and sick soul.

I really do not care what people do and don't do in different parts of the world. If missionary people tread in dangerous waters then they should accept the consequences of their deceitful actions. Right now there are hunderds of thousands of missionaries beating the dust in differnt parts of the muslim world under the guise of helping the locals or learning the language. They use money to con, bribe people and sell them difective goods namely a primitive and idiotic religion. We can talk about the Quran that's my book and my salvation. The supposed sayings of the prophet can not be his. The teachings of Muhammad were from the Quran given that his life was Quranic life. The sayings were collected two hundred years after his death. Bukhari and Muslim just collected and wrote down whatever they could get their hands on and did not pay much attention to the verasity of those seven hundred thousand sayings. You can find anything you want in there. For me if the Hadith agrees with Quran fine, if not I reject it completely. Not That I don't believe our blessed Prophet but I can not be sure if he said things like that after all that time has passed.

You sound like a missionay yourself; So please don't quote chapter nine from the Quran because everyone with a gram of gray matter and intelligence knows that chapter is about a self defensive fight that was brought on the helpless muslim community. I am not going to waste my time chasing after idiotic accusations when it is easier for you and everyone to read the cahpter in whole and the context it was revealed. So, please do us a favor and learn something firt before you start putting forward stupid and ignoramous arguments that can refuted by just reading the whole chapter. By the way I still stand by my argument that the christians throughtout history are the bloddiest, most biggoted of any organized religion. No one comes even close... And still christianity is a primitive religion no matter how you sugar coat it. We can discuss the whole of chapter nine if you insist, ok...

Please note that although the following occurred in the Seventh Century CE, Muhammad’s behaviour and teachings as recorded in the "Sahih" hadith below still determine Islamic law (Sharia law) today. Under Sharia law, no Muslim man can be punished if he can present hadith which show that Muhammad acted in the same way, because no Muslim is allowed to criticise anything that Muhammad did.

All women should be aware of the following:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3 Book 48, No 826
Narrated Abu Sa’id Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of the woman’s mind.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 126:
Narrated Imran: ‘The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and saw that the majority of its residents were the poor; and I looked at the Fire (Hell) and saw that the majority of its residents were women."’

Ishaq: 185
In hell I saw women hanging by their breasts. They had fathered bastards.

Malik’s Muwatta Book 55, Number 55.1.2:
The Messenger of Allah said, 'I do not shake hands with women.'

Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 33:
Narrated Usama bin Zaid: ‘The Prophet said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women."’

Abu-Dawud Book 11, Number 2142:
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab: ‘The Prophet said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.’

Qur’an Chapter 4 Verse 34:
Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen (female nakedness) as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. [Teaches Muslim men to beat their wives and deprive them of physical intimacy as punishment]

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 132:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a: ‘The Prophet said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day."’ [Teaches that it’s OK to flog your wife as long as you don’t flog her as hard as you flog your slaves, and don’t have sex with her later that day]

Ishaq:496
‘Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.’ So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali (Muhammad’s cousin) got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, ‘Tell the Apostle the truth.’

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 30:
Narrated Abdullah bin 'Umar: ‘Allah's Apostle said, "Evil omen is in the women, the house and the horse.'’

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 32:
Narrated Sahl bin Sad: ‘Allah's Apostle said, "If at all there is bad omen, it is in the horse, the woman, and the house."’

Ishaq: 584
Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 29, Number 85:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: ‘The Prophet said, "A woman should not travel except with a Dhu-Mahram (her husband or a man that she cannot marry, such as her brother, father etc.), and no man may visit her except in the presence of a Dhu-Mahram."’

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 250:
Narrated Ibn Abbas: ‘That he heard the Prophet saying, "It is not permissible for a man to be alone with a woman, and no lady should travel except with a Mahram.’

Sahih Muslim Book 007, Number 3110:
Ibn 'Abbas reported: I heard Allah's Messenger delivering a sermon and making this observation:" No person should be alone with a woman except when there is a Mahram with her, and the woman should not undertake journey except with a Mahram."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 120:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "A woman should not fast (optional fasts) except with her husband's permission if he is at home (staying with her)." [Muslim women cannot diet without their husband’s permission]

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: ‘Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses (menstruation)?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."’

Sahih Muslim Book 001, Number 0142:
It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Umar that the Messenger of Allah observed: O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our folk is in bulk in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with religion? He (Muhammad) observed: Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense, and you spend some nights (and days) in which you do not offer prayer and in the month of Ramadan (during the days) you do not observe fast, that is a failing in religion. This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Abu Tahir with this chain of transmitters.

Abu Dawud Book 11, Number 2045:
Narrated Ma'qil ibn Yasar: ‘A man came to the Prophet and said: “I have found a woman of rank and beauty, but she does not give birth to children. Should I marry her?” He said: “No.”’

Abu Dawud Book 41, Number 5119:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar: ‘A woman was my wife and I loved her, but Umar hated her. He said to me: “Divorce her”, but I refused. Umar then went to the Prophet and mentioned that to him. The Prophet said: “Divorce her.”’ [Muhammad ordered a man to leave his wife, simply because one of his men hated the woman]

If you are a Muslim women reading this then please start asking yourself why you need to live your life according to the teachings of a cult leader who looked down on women and taught that they were inferior.

HL,

All religion is a scam. All religion is primitive. Please wise up.

Christianity has a lot to answer for, but Jesus didn't teach hatred and murder of non-Christians, so when Christians go on a killing spree they are acting against the teachings of Christianity. Muhammad, on the other hand killed people with his own hands and taught the murder of non-believers, particularly apostates and blasphemers. When Muslims kill they therefore believe they are doing god's work.

Wise up to the fact that all religion is a con, created by clever politicians. Why are you prepared to put all your faith in ancient politicians? Don't you know about how they used manipulation psychology to control the people of their time?

Once you wise up to the con of religion you can get on with living a peaceful life, according to your own conscience, without supporting any cult which kills people around the world for leaving the cult or blaspheming against the cult leader.

All religious beliefs are primitive. Don't be afraid to think for yourself. You don't need the cult anymore. Set your mind free and join those who don't need any primitive belief system to tell them what to think or how to behave. Don't allow yourself to be taken in by ancient conmen.

You said: "There are no such laws in the Quran against people who for one reason or another leave Islam. Maybe you can enlighten me with something I don't know about since you are a man of advanced knowlodge about Islam."

OK, here is my advanced knowledge of Islam:

Qur’an Chapter 4 Verse 89:
…But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them…

Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:
Narrated 'Abdullah: ‘Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."’

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, No 260:
Narrated Ikrima: ‘Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "’

Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 89, Number 271:
Narrated Abu Musa: ‘A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle.’

Sahih Abu Dawud Book 38, Number 4341:
Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal: ‘AbuMusa said: Mu'adh came to me when I was in the Yemen. A man who was Jew embraced Islam and then retreated from Islam. When Mu'adh came, he said: I will not come down from my mount until he is killed. He was then killed. One of them said: He was asked to repent before that.’

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 630:
Narrated Abu Burda: ‘…Mu'adh came riding his mule till he reached Abu Musa and saw him sitting, and the people had gathered around him. Behold! There was a man tied with his hands behind his neck. Mu'adh said to Abu Musa, "O 'Abdullah bin Qais! What is this?" Abu Musa replied. "This man has reverted to Heathenism after embracing Islam." Mu'adh said, "I will not dismount till he is killed." Abu Musa replied, "He has been brought for this purpose, so come down." Mu'adh said, "I will not dismount till he is killed." So Abu Musa ordered that he be killed, and he was killed.’

Sahih Muslim Book 016, Number 4152:
'Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) reported Allah's Messenger as saying: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony (states belief that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad was the messenger of Allah), but in one of three cases: the married adulterer, a life for life, and the deserter of his Din (Islam), abandoning the community.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 558:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said, "I have been made victorious with As-Saba (an easterly wind) and the people of 'Ad were destroyed by Ad-Dabur (a westerly wind)." Narrated Abu Said: Ali sent a piece of gold to the Prophet who distributed it among four persons: Al-Aqra' bin Habis Al-Hanzali from the tribe of Mujashi, 'Uyaina bin Badr Al-Fazari, Zaid At-Ta'i who belonged to (the tribe of) Bani Nahban, and 'Alqama bin Ulatha Al-'Amir who belonged to (the tribe of) Bani Kilab. So the Quraish and the Ansar became angry and said, "He (i.e. Muhammad) gives the chief of Najd and does not give us." The Prophet said, "I give them so as to attract their hearts (to Islam)." Then a man with sunken eyes, prominent checks, a raised forehead, a thick beard and a shaven head, came (to Muhammad) and said, "Be afraid of Allah, O Muhammad!" The Prophet ' said "Who would obey Allah if I disobeyed Him? (Is it fair that) Allah has trusted all the people of the earth to me while, you do not trust me?" Somebody who, I think was Khalid bin Al-Walid, requested the Prophet to let him chop that man's head off, but he prevented him. When the man left, the Prophet said, "Among the off-spring of this man will be some who will recite the Qur'an but the Qur'an will not reach beyond their throats (i.e. they will recite like parrots and will not understand it nor act on it), and they will renegade from the religion as an arrow goes through the game's body. They will kill the Muslims but will not disturb the idolaters. If I should live up to their time I will kill them as the people of 'Ad were killed (i.e. I will kill all of them)."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577:
Narrated 'Ali: ‘I heard the Prophet saying, "In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection."’

CONVERT LOCKED INTO MENTAL HOSPITAL – PATIENT MUST RETURN TO ISLAM TO BE DISCHARGED – 13th May 2005
www.compassdirect.org/en/newslongen.php?idelement=3816

"An Egyptian convert from Islam to Christianity is being held against his will in a Cairo mental hospital, where supervising doctors have told him he must stay unless he recants his faith and returns to Islam. Gaser Mohammed Mahmoud, 30, was committed to the El-Khanka Hospital for Mental and Neurological Health in early January by his adoptive parents, after they learned he had become a Christian two years earlier. Since his forced confinement, he reportedly has been beaten, whipped and given potentially fatal injections by hospital personnel."

CHRISTIAN PASTOR CHARGED OF APSTACY IN IRAN – 6th May 2005
www.islamreview.com/news/2005_news.htm#55

"Further to our Urgent Action e-mail of April 22, we have received the following update concerning Iranian Pastor Hamid Pourmand. Hamid Pourmand has appeared before the shari’ah court in Tehran to face charges of apostasy and proselytising Muslims. Apostasy carries the death penalty in Iran. According to news agency Compass Direct, Hamid was brought before the court every two or three days between April 13 and April 23 for hearings that lasted between one and two hours. He has refused to recant his faith despite being pressured to do so. The Pastor’s family was permitted to attend the trial, although the court did not inform them of every hearing. Hamid was afforded legal representation during the trial. Officials have since informed his lawyer that court proceedings are to be moved from Tehran to Bandar-i Bushehr, Hamid’s hometown. . No date has been given for the trial in the new location or for when he will be transferred to a local prison."

CHRISTIAN CONVERT WAITING FOR HIS APOSTASY TRIAL ASKS FOR PRAYERS - 18th May 2005
www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=3315

"Reverend Pourmand is scheduled to appear before an Islamic court on charges of proselytising and apostasy and could get the death penalty and be hanged. Tehran (AsiaNews/Compass) – Hamid Pourmand, a Protestant clergyman who was born a Muslim, was moved from Tehran’s Evin Prison in an armoured car two days ago, May 16, to his home town of Bandar-i Bushehr (southern Iran), where an Islamic court will hear charges of proselytising and apostasy against him. He could get the death penalty and be hanged."

THE SPECTATOR – CHURCH OF MARTYRS (p 13) – 26th March 2005
By Anthony Browne (Europe correspondent of The Times)
www.spectator.co.uk/article_pfv.php?id=5882

"I have spoken to dozens of former Muslims who have converted to Christianity in Britain, and who are shunned by their community, subjected to mob violence, forced out of town, threatened with death and even kidnapped. The Barnabus Trust knows of 3,000 such Christians facing persecution in this country, but the police and government do nothing."

Is that sufficient evidence, or would you like more? Wise up HL - all religion is a scam. Don't follow any cult which teaches the murder of people who leave the cult. Think for yourself. Free your mind. You don't need a cult to tell you how to think or what to think, or how to behave. Just listen to your own conscience. It will never tell you to go out and kill anyone, and it will never advise you to emulate any man who has sex with children.

Ross,

Do you still want me to list some of the atrocities the church committed throughout the centuries against its own heretics. You can save me the trouble, the information is availabe evey where; you just have to get off you insulting and rude attitude and learn something for yourself instead of relying on the biggoted leaders of your church whom you like to spoonfeed you the hatred and ignorance.

The way I see it, you are worshiping an man and the way pople act in the churches, speaking in garbage language they call speaking in tongues, dancing and clapping to the drums and guitars, waving their hands in the air, rolling and fainting on the floor, handling snakes,..., they are all the sign of a cult. So don't tell me about cults, I can see them on TV every Sunday morning, thank you very much...
We Muslims worship God, whom you call the afther, in the most reverent and humbling way. We try to serve Him the best way we know how.

There are no such laws in the Quran against people who for one reason or another leave Islam. Maybe you can enlighten me with something I don't know about since you are a man of advanced knowlodge about Islam. People do what they wish when they can. Take for example the murder and killing in cold blood of people the Catholic church deemed heretic since the Christianity was adopted by the Roman empire. Christianity is bloodier and more begoted than any other religion the world has ever seen if you want to keep count. I think it is foolish to deny the ruthlessness of the catholic church and by that I mean Christianity when it comes to punishings anyone who did not conform to the rules and creeds of the Church. Is there anything in the bible that says kill apostates and heretics. I don't recall reading that anywhere except in the time of Moses and I can show you where they are at if you want me to; novertheless the killings and torture were done in the name of their lord and savior since Christainty came to be.
God can do anything! well can he make a rock so big he can't lift? that's what the atheist would say to that. We Muslims say and God tells us in the Quran that God has power over everything and all things. We say God does godly things and becoming a man is not one of them. The primitive man believed in man gods; it is too bad that Christians still do. The thing is the Christians have no proof whatsoever from the NT if you read it as a whole. But The church had monopoly on creeds and theology for a long time when the laity could not even read; and on top of that no one could read or translate the bible in their own langauge on the pain of death.
Are you saying that God can be three or just his nature to be three if He chooses to be any thing; Why not twelve or seven if he can do any thing he wants to.

HL wrote,
Muslims do not worship Muhammad

Nobody here is accusing muslims of worshipping Muhammed. There are many reasons why islam is a cult, the main one is death for apostates of islam, another reason is death for blasphemy against islam. That is why this religion is primitive.

Christians believe Christ is God so they worship him. God can choose to be born as man and eat food and sleep if he wishes to do so. Christians (or buddhists or sikhs or jews or hindus) are not killed for abandoning their faith that is why these religions are not cults.

This is the kind of insults only raving maniac born again christians write. This stuff comes from people who follow a primitive pagan religion and think they are better than onyone else. Muslims do not worship Muhammad however, christians worship Jesus, a man, a mortal who needed food and sleep to live. If that's not a cult then what is? No matter how holy a man can be he can never be a god. Yet that's what you fanatics do. You make fun of people who you say worship Budha yet you worship a man just the same. You and they then are in the same boat. The western man might have put a man on the moon but his religion is still primitive no matter how you slice at it.

Pamela,

What do the following verses of the Qur'an and supporting hadith texts mean? Please provide the correct context and explain what Muslim children understand by these scriptures when they study them in school, as they are required to do as part of a standard Islamic education:

Qur’an Chapter 2 Verse 65:
And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (Jews): We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

Ishaq: 250
The bestial transformation occurred when Allah turned Jews into apes, despised.

Tabari VIII: 28
When the Messenger approached the Jews, he said, ‘You brothers of apes! Allah shamed you and cursed you.’

Qur’an Chapter 5 Verse 14:
From those too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the Message that was sent to them: so We estranged them, with enmity and hatred between one and the other, to the Day of Judgment. And soon will Allah show them what they have done.

Qur’an Chapter 5 Verse 41:
…Jews, - men who will listen to any lie…For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.

Qur’an Chapter 5 Verse 82:
Strongest among men in enmity (hatred) to the believers (Muslims) wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans.

Ishaq: 262
Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur’an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse.

Qur’an Chapter 5 Verse 51:
O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.

Qur’an Chapter 3 Verse 28:
Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming you.) But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah. [This verse teaches Muslims not to make friends with unbelievers, but allows them to feign friendship with unbelievers in order to prevent harm befalling themselves]

Pamela, all Muslim children are required to study the above verses of the Qur'an as part of an Islamic education. Please tell your readers how these verses are explained to Muslim children.

The only reason that Islam grew is because people who left the cult were killed in accordance with the cult leader’s teachings. It was much safer to join the cult and be part of the brotherhood than to speak out against it.

How many fatwas have been issued in recent years ordering the murder of authors and journalists who have criticised Islam, or Muhammad? How many have actually been murdered?

Only the weak minded continue to remain a part of the cult. The educated strong minded people of the world and the decent minded people of the world would never involve themselves in such a belief system. They would never look for guidance from any cult leader.

Why do you feel the need to follow the teachings of a child abuser? Why do you feel the need to follow the teachings of a rapist? Why do you feel the need to follow the ideology of a narcissist?

Are you incapable of thinking for yourself? Just because 1.4 billion people belong to the cult doesn't change the fact that it is a cult, and doesn't change the fact that they were all duped by a clever psychological manipulator.

Only a very weak person would ever think that they needed to follow the example of such a man. Muslims, you all need to wake up to the fact that you are involved in a cult, which was created by one of the most violent and dangerous men in history, who had sex with little children.

Isn’t it time to start thinking for yourself about what is right and wrong? Why do you need a man such as Muhammad to tell you how to live your life? Don’t be weak.

You have a conscience which you can follow. You don’t need to follow any religion. It’s all a scam. Haven’t you worked that out yet? Wise up.

Anonymous and others (Ross, Deb Chatterjee, Concerned etc - the usual suspects) Quoi?

Reduced again to pointing out how flawed the Messenger is? And same old same old for centuries now. It would seem that Muslims nowadays are learning more from monocultural and monolingual Anglo-Saxon Christians, atheists and others who are not Muslims:)

It's the message, not the Messenger. When Prophet Muhammad PBUH got the the first message, the Prophet himself was sceptical. And when he made public the messages, many called him a liar. Turns out some 1.3 billion people at least now believes the Prophet re his message on God and our individual and collective responsibility here on earth.

So, y'all expect me to recant and ceased being a Muslim ? Dream on! Whatever y'all are saying here are already known to Muslims. Again I ask y'all to go to Islam Online. No one censored anything there that I can recall.

Islam is a most uncomplicated faith when it comes to God - there is no god but God. Very simple faith in asking believers to practice the Five Pillars if they can and will do it. And no insitutitutionalised "church" hierachy, dogmas, set financial contributions to "church" or excommunications. More free floating discussion of what it means to be a Muslim at the personal level and in the public domain. More room for endless interpretations by both laymen and ulama - from Osama to Sheikh Tantawi (of Al Azhar University) to Ayatollah Khomeini. Of course y'all have never heard of Sheikh Tantawi.

So, don't take it personally if I don't indulge y'all on your questions and issues pertaining to Islam, Muslims, the Qur'an, Hadiths, Shariah etc. The focus of the internal debate in Islam is among Muslims themselves. Pardon us if we treat the likes of everyone from Daniel Pipes to Ann Coulter to Pat Robertson to Ayaan Hirsi Ali like irritating mosquitoes buzzing around when we want to focus our attention and discourse among ourselves on how we should pursue and ensure justice and peace.

Ms Pamela Taylor

You said your spirituality has been profoundly impacted by Buddhist teachings about detachment.

As a Muslim living in Southeast Asia, and with due respect to Norrie Hoyt (on what he sees and understand Buddhism and Buddhist precepts), I do find that vaunteed Buddhist "detachment" disquieting. It is this detachment at the very extreme, called "tolerance" and "easy going attitude" by some, that led to moral and ethical indifference or amorality if you will. It can be attested by the ongoing trafficking in women and children and sexual exploitation of women and children. Any western tourist to Thailand knows how laizzez faire this trade is.

And it is this detachment that leds Pol Pot to cause the genocide of his own people. He may be an atheist, but his detachment is like a Buddhist monk at level three "detachment" towards nirvana. Is this the same detachment that led Burma to continue being under a military junta? Some Buddhists monks in Sri Lanka did urge actions against the Tamils of Sri Lanka.

We see what we want to see in spite of reality. On Islam and Muslims. Or, on Buddhism and Buddhists. Islam is all violence and vileness and Buddhism is all peace and purity if one is to believe some posters here in On Faith.

As always, it is the believers or adherents who make beliefs and religions what it is today. For better or for worse. And always a bit irresponsible, futile and irrelevant and to blame Jesus, Buddha or Muhammad for the state of Christianity, Buddhism and Islam respectively today. Obviously Jesus did not ask his followers to form myriad churches. Or Buddha would encourage his disciples to form themselves into Theravada or Mahayana schools among others, or Muhammad to see Muslims delineated along Shiites and Sunnis.

anonymous and anonymous,

Please explain what your comments have to do with this topic. You seem to be nothing but wasters of band width. (Your comments are also just a bit redundant from day to day. Your imagination must be rather limited.)

Start your own blog. We promise not to harass you. We will just ignore you.

Live long and prosper \\//

Great personal reply to an uninspiring question!! May the force be with you!

The Qur’an records that many people of the time considered Muhammad to be a consummate liar:

Qur’an Chapter 26 Verse 186:
for thou art nothing but a mortal like ourselves! And, behold, we think that thou art a consummate liar!

Qur’an Chapter 26 Verse 189:
But they called him a liar

Qur’an Chapter 38 Verse 4:
“And they wonder that there has come to them a warner from among themselves, and the disbelievers say: This IS an enchanter, a liar.”

Qur’an Chapter 54 Verse 25:
Why - on him alone from among all of us should a [divine] reminder have been bestowed? Nay, but he is a boastful liar!

TO PAMELA AND ALL MUSLIMS,

Please consider the following, assuming that it DOESN’T refer to Islam:

Imagine that you are living more than 1,500 years ago. A man moves in next door to you. He is a strong leader and an intimidating sort of person who most people fear. He is also a clever man. He has no position in society, but craves power and authority. He comes up with a plan to make himself powerful. His plan it to start a cult.

He launches his cult by claiming that the creator of the universe speaks to him. His family believe him, because is a very convincing and they are afraid to challenge him. He draws strength from their response and begins trying to convince more people that he has a special relationship with the creator of the universe. He preaches that anyone who doesn't join his cult and believe in him will spend eternity in hell when they die. Some people who hear this message fear the prospect of having to spend eternity in hell, so they start following him, just in case it is true.

He is a very smart man and has worked out that repetition is the key to controlling people’s beliefs. He therefore orders his followers to pray 5 times per day, and every time they pray he requires them to confirm in their prayer that he has a special relationship with the creator of the universe.

Some of his followers have some doubts about his claim to a special relationship with the creator of the universe, but after they’ve prayed a few hundred times and confirmed to themselves on every occasion that he has a special relationship with the creator of the universe, they come to believe it quite firmly.

Whenever his followers have any doubts about his relationship with the creator of the universe these doubts are quickly abandoned, because every few hours they have to pray and confirm to themselves on each occasion that he has a special relationship with the creator of the universe. Their doubts never have any time to grow, because the psychology he introduced was cleverly designed to remove these doubts.

He then preaches that it is the will of god that anyone who leaves his cult must be murdered by the remaining cult members. This starts to happen. People who leave are killed. He then preaches that anyone who speaks out against him must be assassinated by his cult members, and this also starts to happen. The killings of people who leave his cult and of people who criticise him quickly causes his followers to become very afraid of questioning his teachings and questioning his claimed relationship with the creator of the universe. It quickly becomes a huge taboo to doubt the faith or to question his teachings and authority.

He starts preaching that his followers won’t go to hell when they die, no matter what crimes they commit, because a non-believer will be made to pay for their sins. His followers find this belief very comforting, and accept it as true.

Unlike most men, he finds little 6 year old girls sexually attractive and starts having dreams about a little 6 year old child. He tries to persuade her father to allow him to marry the little girl, but the father tells him she is too young and he must wait another 3 years before he will allow her to become his wife.

As soon as the little girl becomes 9 years of age he marries her and is immediately able to get an erection with her in order to consummate his 'marriage' to her (most men are incapable getting an erection with a 9 year old child, because 9 year old children do not arouse normal men sexually in any way whatsoever). He encourages his male followers to emulate him, but some state that they prefer to marry women rather than children.

There is a serious lack of women in the region, because female infanticide is common due to economic reasons, and because wealthy men are able to take several wives at a time, removing them from the pool of available women. This leaves a lot of frustrated men with no access to women.

He tells his followers that they can gain access to women and young girls through war. He tells his followers that the people of other tribes in the area are being oppressed by their leaders and need to be ‘freed’ by his cult. He also teaches that his cult is oppressed and needs to attack in order to defend against oppression. He teaches that his followers can share in the booty of war when they attack. He tells them that it is god’s will that they should rape the women of these tribes in order to shame and humiliate the unbelievers for not listening to god’s message. His men gladly attack the unbelievers, take their land, capture female prisoners of war and rape them to humiliate and shame the enemy on behalf of god. He allows them to sell their sex slaves and to profit from the attacks on these tribes.

He tells his followers that they are each allowed to marry 4 women, but that he is allowed as many as he wants. He starts building up a harem of women. Some of them are captives from his raids on other tribes, including beautiful women whose entire families have been slaughtered by his men.

He feels very insecure about his wives and fears that they might be unfaithful to him, so he says that god has ordered that women must cover their faces and hide their figures with loose clothing when in the company of other men.

He also orders that women must be stoned to death for having sex outside marriage, to ensure that his harem remain faithful to him.

He captures slaves, keeps slaves, trades in slaves, gives slaves as gifts to members of his family, sells slaves for weapons and allows his followers to capture and enslave unbelieving women and girls. He teaches that the body of a slave girl belongs to the slave owner. He teaches that slave owners may have sex with female slaves without their consent. Countless women are raped and forced into a life of sexual slavery as a result of his teachings. His followers all believe that they are doing nothing wrong in raping the women and girls because he has told them they are doing god’s work.

The question for all Muslims is this: Would you support such a man, join his cult and help it grow? Would you participate in killing people who left his cult? Would you consider it right to engage little 9 year old girls in sexual relationships? Would you attack the unbelievers and join in the raping of the unbelieving women and girls to bring shame and humiliation on their tribes? Would you not see through his cult psychology and manipulation skills? Would you believe that god spoke to him or would you recognise him as a highly dangerous psychopath? Would you be taken in by such a clever conman?

What is your answer?