The End is a-Comin'

RDWxoV Cool, bro!

RDWxoV Cool, bro!

RDWxoV Cool, bro!

how can the sun and moon be joint together impossieble

well i surely cant disagee with that-

but i think youre limiting religion to the wrapping- to me islam in particular responds to that universalism- that expansion- and i mean this truly- it takes into account that people will be preoccupied with the wrapping, and sets even rules of engaging each other in that respect- aspects of life that are unpleasant- we share the planet with people i a wide range of spiritual development- where somebody is now - is where we were if were a little ahead of the game-that is what makes us understand and empathize with the and not judge them harshly- even while they judge each other in the harshest and most severe of terms- but it also makes peoples behavior more predictable the closer to animal nature they are, and those a little farther along down the line can recognize tis and give some gentle guidance and that guidance is good- its valuable and wise and applies to all humans-

i look at it like this- there is some little schmucky guy in the bottom of the hole of the world, like at the lowest spiritual levelthere is, i guess someone has to be- the most unloved and untouched human there is- and someone resonates with hi because theyre the 2nd most unloved and alone creature n the universe, and they reach their hand down and grab this little guys hand and they are also reaching their hand up to grasp number 3 ost unloved etc-- and at the top of course would be those closest to god- and the last messenger here was muhammad(pbuh) and also he was the only human given a choice to live or die- and he was longing for his final union with ALLAH (god) and somehow enormously supporting us all is god of course- theres a top and a bottom- a heiarchy i guess but no one really recognizes when theirs is the hand reaching down or when theirs is the hand grasping up for support- just some endless chain of 2 pronged forearms with hands going either way- yes theres an up and a down- they seem like value judgements- years ago i antd to d a painting of buddha and jesus(ata) and muhammad(pbuh) and krishna and moses and it goes on and on having some tea together or something-( i know, i think i was 18 at the time and i thought it was revolutionary- youknow how kids are) the wrapping does have some purpose though-

theres an agreement and accord and a real harmony that only the wrapping can provide sometimes- i wish people were in tune with each other and didnt need wrapping but theres a reason it exists- the anticipation of the gift for instance- or not getting to the gift until you appreciate it enough not to abuse or discard it-

well ive gone on and i talked more thsn i mant to and didnt get to my point,but there is time isnt there?

peace gerry and happy passover even if youre not jewish or of the judeo-christian tradition

Victoria,
nothing what you say actually contradicts my previous post, you may read it again. Each one of us is a "knot" in the huge, cohesive net of mankind, to use another symbol.

Only: The box is too small for the magnificence of the universe and the capacity of the human mind! I am not reducing the box - I am amplifying the content!

The fight is never about content, always about wrappings, to abide by the symbol I used. You even confirmed my stance: You got stuck with the symbol (box), instead of considering the content. Take "vehicle" instead for a symbol of religion, if you want, unless you think that Islam is the only possible vehicle. But then - we touch the question of fundamentalism again...

ive never been a big fan of kants-

humans are not flailing unconnected individuals but fingers on a body- if you as a pinky become damaged in some way, my body should feel it-
there is a unity of purpose and intent that religion provides that no philosopher has equalled-

th basic principle of islam is repsonsibilty- complete responsibilty- so his idea doesnt fit here-
and there is no 'somebody else' guiding anything-

he stays i the realm of the ego with this statement- which is fine for him but doesnt exactly resonate any great or deep virtues-

whose brain would i use if not my own?
its hardly courageous to think- we all can do that-
there is control and desire to maintain control, even when that control is obviously not true-

we all die- fate and life deal many unexpected blows and blessings- there is no way to control it- no matter how much one thinks-

and it comes down to control or deluding yourself that you have control-and acceptance that you dont-
with acceptance comes more wisdom-

just rejcting something isnt supplanting it with ometingmore value- its just hanging onto the illusion that a person is writing their own script- but its clearly not true-

if it were true no one would die or get sick or lose a loved one- everything is an opportunity to test your mettle and grow -

if you are reducing religion to the superficial wrapping of the box- that is what you will perceive-
religion is what is inside the box and it is more universal than i can conceive-
peace

Victoria,

I don't scorn you,
I don't deride you,
I certainly don't give you any recommendation on how you should act in your religion.

But I still am convinced, that your (or anybody serious else's) religion is a VEHICLE (token, symbol) to turn to your inside. Symbolism and rituals are strong human agents, nothing to be derided. Only: It is not necessary to put all the emotions, all the intellectual and philosophical strivings, all love and deliberation, all meditation about oneself and one's connections to others, all awe towards the miraculous nature, into the box of any religion.

The religion, to abide by this picture for a moment, is the box you unwrap diligently. But it is not what is inside the box: Human nature with all the things you mention in your last post.

Instead of agreeing or debating on the content (the complex human nature), people fight over the colour of the parcel, with all the gruesome consequences we see in the world. The content of the parcel, in your case, would be the fervor, the seriousness, the compassion etc. Islam, however, would be your parcel, Christianity other people's parcel. You could wrap your wonderful contents also in other parcels, or just leave it unwrapped, as I do as a person who does not subscribe to such a parcel, or vehicle, to use a different symbol. In a serious strife for insight and knowledge, I regard religion as a superfluous and even dangerous accidental, because it takes the focus away from the real content of the box, it mistakes the wrapping for the content. And if this is not seen, the fight over the colour of this parcel becomes really infantile, immature, as Kant, one of the main philosophers of enlightenment stated. I repeat the translation of a Kant phrase I offered in the "Why is atheism...." thread.

"Enlightenment is the emancipation of Man from his immaturity, for which he himself is responsible. Immaturity is the incapability to use one's reason WITHOUT THE GUIDANCE OF SOMEBODY ELSE. The responsability for this immaturity is grounded in the fact that it is not derived from lack of intelligence, but from lack of resolve and courage to use one's reason without the guidance of somebody else. Sapere aude! Have the courage to use your own brain!"

Your other points about fundamentalism are not very convincing to me, but we might leave it at that, because the above is more important.

i dont know if anyone ever bothers to talk to you about it in a real way gerry- but prayer is the way i approach my conscience and the deepest inside part of me- the core of what is me and honest and real-
and it is an active giving- giving of love and self and it is also connecting- if you believe connection to god is a fantasy- it is unbearable for me to live without it- it is a raw aching separation a real anxiety and a feeling of incompleteness - of floating of being an alien in my own world- of not trying hard enough reaching and digging way in and through and out and in again- no amount of derision or scorn or skepticism seems to really touch it- others dibelief doesnt weaken or strengthen it- its not even attached so much to religion but that is the form i discipline myself in it- i need a model to emulate and guide through their actions as i am insufficiently connected on my own- Muhammad(pbuh) is the realest and most genuine human the trustworthy ne- whose example never ceases inspiring me- without prayer and the repeated to familiarity schedule of consciously reconnecting even when im tired or lazy or sad- if i dont pray i feel as if i havent tried enough and put n enough effort into my soul- that is it my soul work added to my day work and emotional work and physical and relational and etc...etc...work

ok- it is what it is

peace gerry

not everyone looks to religion as an escapist fantasy to fight over though-
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fun·da·men·tal·ism (fŭn'də-měn'tl-ĭz'əm)

1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
2.
1. often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
2. Adherence to the theology of this movement.
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well no- through honest self analysis i am not a fundamentalist- at least in the literal sense- certainly not in the popular vernacular-

i especially react with distaste to this aspect-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i have a definite tendency towards flexibilty and leniency and no strong feelings about secualarism one way or another- and i hope i am

this statement of yours-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Either you subscribe to the fundamentals of your "belief" or you don't.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i find oddly restrictive and rigid and absolutist itself-

so maybe if you were personally religious- this is how you would approach religion-

however- notwithstanding your judgement of how religious people should be religious-

to state that one tries to "appear more human"
( a distinctly dishonest and duplicitous way to conduct oneself) it is beyond your range of appropriate or respectful conversation to state that one is intellectually or religiously dishonest because they dont fit into your paradigm of what a religious should be.

that is not necessary and superfluous to your point.

All religions are created by people's always immensely rich fantasies (often attached to a given historical occasion) as a replacement for the blank spots in human knowledge. Fantasy is, and always was, independent of any knowledge. Fantasy is the sibling of faith.

Instead of admitting the blank spots, the most colorful and weird details of those fantasies are discussed and fought over (gods, demons, devils, hell, heaven - religions). To me as an outsider, I observe people killing eachother over the question if Cinderella's shoe lace is black or brown, and nothing more serious.

And Victoria, "fundamentalism" is, by definition, the essence of all of these fairy tales. Anybody who takes them seriously, including you, is a fundamentalist (fundamental = pertaining to the basis of something). You cannot leave the basis, the fundamentals, in order to appear more "human" than the "fundamentalists". Either you subscribe to the fundamentals of your "belief" or you don't. You may be a charming and compassionate person (as so many atheists are I know), but religiously and intellectually this attitude is utterly dishonest.

The Christian Madrasses (Regent University etc.) spout the same poison into young brains as the Jewish and Muslim religious schools: They take away the "god-given" (excuse me!) gift of independent thinking, which is the only basis of human dignity. We see "the land of the free" (and much of the rest of the world) degenerating into a system of power grabbing through the venom of superstition, fear and hatred. The power-inebriated figures like Robertson and his ilk have the same value, and, alas, the same effect as the Chomeinis, the Ahmadinedschads and all the rest of the religiously "transformed" (to remain polite!) priesthood of this so slowly developing mankind.

very nicely expressed christy

Adam:

Following the hijra (Muhammad's migration to Madinah), tribal factions including the Jews asked Muhammad to be a moderator for all the tribes of Yathrib (Madinah), because at that time all of the tribes were fighting with one another. As a result, he drafted the Saheefat al Madinah, which stated, among other things:
a) Jews may profess their own religion and Muslims theirs
b) If either Jews or Muslims are attacked by a third party, each shall come to the defense of the other
c) The two parties shall interact with each other based on righteousness and shall hold counsel with one another

This seems like fair treatment thus far. Having said that, as far as I know (and I'm *not* an expert), the tables did turn after Jewish elders in Madinah began to stand up to Muhammad. After the battle of Trench, I think alot of Banu Quraiza were indeed killed and otherwise attacked. And after the battles of Uhud and Badr, the Jews (B. Qainuqa and B. Nadir) were accused of treachery, and, as a result, barred from Madinah. Accounts of what exactly transpired are mixed depending on the source. One popular oft-quoted account of Muhammad's dealings with the Yathrib Jews allegedly gathered the information from descendants of the Quraiza (Jewish tribe), and Muslim and non-Muslim scholars have called the credibility of these accounts into question as they believe the stories have become very exaggerated.

As far as I know though, yes, violence against Yathrib Jews did occur, though I don't know if the words 'genocide' and 'ethinic cleansing' are accurate depictions.

Still, I'd argue that what you are talking about is more relevant to a discussion of political or Arab/Jewish history, not a discussion on whether or not Islam is a beautiful religion. And I did say I think all religions/cultures have a 'dark side'.

Again, I'm not an expert, but I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. I'm perfectly aware that there are some less-than-beautiful parts of Islamic history, as is also the case with the history of all religions. Horrible acts have been committed in the name of every religion, by people and against people of every religion.

If you want to hate Muslims, you're unfortunately going to look for supporting reasons to do so and you're going to disregard any information that contradicts what you hold to be true. I, personally, tend to look at a religion based on the people faithfully practicing it. And by that I mean the vast majority of people, not a few fundamentalists who make the news (all religions have those).

As for the quote you mentioned, I'll only say that alot of Qur'anic passages are taken out of context because they ignore the passages before and after them, and do not disclose the topic in which they occur. I, personally, am not familiar with that verse so I can't comment other than to say sure, that isn't a nice verse. But since I've read the Qur'an and I know that the overwhelming majority of it has a message of peace and tolerance, I tend to reserve judgement when I read verses like that until I can research the context because often that explains alot. Does that mean I can guarantee you there is a good explanation for this verse which seems to encourage violence? No.

But if you had the intention of understanding Islam has a whole and Muslims as a people, you wouldn't be quoting tribal skirmishes that occurred 1400 years ago. With all due respect, there are so many more meaningful and noteworthy things to talk about.

Victoria and Christy Hoover,
Did or did not Muhammad institute the first pogrom of Jews in history? Did he or did not commit genocide on the B. Qurayza? Did he or did not not commit ethnic cleansing on the B. Khaibar? Did he or did he not kill the men of the B. Mustaliq and enslave the women and children? Did he or did he not enslave the women and children of the Jews of Khaibar after killing the menfolk?

How can you say Islam is a beautiful religion?

Is this beautiful?

"Kill those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. "

I don't think so.

It's always disappointing to see people putting so much energy into discrediting Islam and painting it in such negative light. Anecdotal evidence (which is the weakest kind) is always used in an attempt to show what a horrible religion Islam is, may God help us.

Fortunately, Muslims won't lose sleep over this because anyone who has actually read the Qur'an and studied it with the intention of truly comprehending it can rest assured that Islam is a beautiful religion. Like Eboo Patel said in his On Faith post regarding discrimation against Muslims in the U.S., every religion/culture has it's 'dark side'. The acts that have been committed in the name of Christianity (the Crusades, as a starting example) are nothing short of heinous.

I really don't understand what anyone has to gain in spreading hate against Islam. But I think respected Muslim scholars such as Imam Zaid Shakir and Sheikh Hamza Yusuf are good examples to follow in that they always respond from the Islamic perspective with dignity and graceful intelligence, not further hate.

As to the actual topic at hand, I believe all 'mainstream' religions have provided an end-of-days scenario for their followers. This either lends credibility to all of them that there will indeed be some sort of judgement day, or it is simply a common trait that an organized religion will want its followers to believe that there is an ultimate, eternal reason to follow the rules and be a good person. Wa allahu alam (and God knows best).

During the reign of the Prophet in the city/state of Medina early 7th century, every one was a full citizen with full civic and religious rights: the new Muslims, Christians, the Jews and the Pagans of Arabia. The Quran states unequivocally that " No Compulsion in Religion.")The Prophet who had just established the first Islamic city/state in Medina, had signed a treaty with-among others-the Jewish tribe of Banu Qorizah-to defend the new state and where the treaty stipulated that the members of this tribe being citizens of the new Islamic city-state agreed never to ally themselves with the enemies of the infant Islamic state nor to carry arms against it in exchange for granting them-the Jewish tribe- the aforementioned full citizenship rights including guarantying their protection and security. However the Jewish tribe conspired with enemies of the Islamic state and committed treason, treachery and violated the treaty. The Islamic state, lead by the Prophet defatted the aggressors on the battlefield; thereafter the Prophet and the leaders of the Jewish tribe mutually agreed to appointing an acceptable and neutral arbitrator/Judge to rule on the violation of the treaty which the Jewish tribe violated and the Judge ruled that the Jewish tribe was guilty of both joint military aggression with the enemies of the infant state as well as treason as they were citizen of Islamic state. The judge ordered the death penalty to be carried out against the treacherous members of the tribe who committed treason and aggression-as any state would do in self-defense. The numbers of those deserving the death penalty is exaggerated by Jewish sources as usual.

Asim - The Quran states unequivocally that " No Compulsion in Religion.")

Muhammad made that verse up when he exiled the Jews of Medinah. It was the custom of those days that the Arabs would bring their children up as Jews if they were fostered to Jewish families.

When Muhammad exiled the Jews, the Muslim Arabs were worried that their children would be exiled too, so Muhammad placated them with yet another blatantly situational self-serving verse saying that there is no compulsion in religion - meaning that the children of the Ansar (i.e. Medinan followers of Muhammad) who were brought up as Jews did not have to give up their religion when their foster families were exiled from Medinah for failing to accept Muhammad's self-proclaimed prophethood.

However, we do know that there is compulsion in religion since Muhammad told his followers to kill any Muslims who changed his religion and of course, the infamous chapter 9 of his diabolical quran where he told his followers in no uncertain terms to 'kill the disbelievers' - see surah 9:29.

How can one kill apostates and disbelievers and yet claim that there is 'no compulsion in religion'?

As-salaam alaikum,
Ka'ab ibn Ashraf

PS: I was murdered on Muhammad's orders for writing a poem denigrating him.

Fact that over the border in Canada the Muslims tried to implement sharia law is disturbing to say the least. It shows a great disrespect and an unwillingness to integrate into our Western secular societies such that one wonders why Muslims want to live in the West. Or maybe they were under the impression that Western societies will accept sharia, just like Islamic countries will accept Christian laws.

Some things one shouldn't even ask for by asking it leaves a sour taste that lingers. What next? Hindus asking for Hindu laws? Buddhists asking for Buddhist laws? Or is it only Muslims who ask for sharia laws in the Western secular countries they voluntarily migrated to, knowing full well (or so they should) that they are not Muslim non-sharia countries with Western secular traditions practising Western secular laws with a Christian tradition.

Perhaps it's just me but that really gets me wondering if Muslims have any place in Western secular societies. If Muslim want replicas of their Islamic home countries one wonders they they left them in the first place.

Victoria,
"Joseph -- Actually, I find American law far more compliant with shariah than Saudi law, as do most Muslims who live here."

Huh? You mean we chop the hands of thieves in America? Which state does that?

You mean we allow polygamy in America? Which state allows that?

Which state allows child marriages?

Which state allows women to inherit only half of men?

I'm not sure I understand how you can say what you did. American law is no where like Sharia - they are essential opposite in tradition and effect.

Salaams Pamela and thanks-
CTCNL has been led to countless links denouncing violence by muslims and endless responses differentiating political motive and religiously motivated actions.
This is is curious litle obsession and he repeats the same thing even after being amply repsonded to- presumably to give the impression to other viewers that there is no reasonable response to his accusations.

I think many people have already reognized that-

thanks for being one of the only panelists that is so responsive to what happens in your blog-

i always am edified by your comments.
peace

BC -- thanks for the comment. Sometimes it is rather disheartening to read the same garbage over and over again, with no acknowledgement or recognition that you've responded to those points, and would like the conversation to move forward not just repeat the same thing over and over. It reminds me of talking with my two year olds (back when they were two), "I want to go to the park." "It's raining, we can go to the library or the indoor playground." "I want to to go to the park." "We'll get all wet and muddy if we go to the park. How about the library or the playground?" "Park!" "I don't want you to catch a cold, library or playground?" Park! Park, park, park, park, park, park!!"

Gerry -- as for that German judge, Muslims all over the world are aghast at her ruling. First, the verse in question cannot be used to justify domestic violence. Even if you agree with the most pro-force interpretation (which I don't of course), there is a requirement of at least a night between the provocation and the resort to physical methods of expressing disapproval. That is not a pattern that domestic violence takes.

Second, one country, one law. If a particular law is good for me, then it is good for all citizens, and if it is bad for me, then it is bad for all citizens. We cannot go about creating second class citizens that do not have access to equal rights, liberties and protections, or who have access to more rights, liberties and protections than anyone else.

Third, cultural relevatism has to be rejected, at least in its extreme forms. I've said before, your rights end at the tip of my nose, so too your right to your culture ends at the tip of my nose. When a culture justifies/accepts physical harm of individuals, female or male, that is where we have to draw the line of tolerance.

Pablo -- hahaha... or was that not a joke. I actually believe that human communication is quite often human mis-communication. Take the word "love," what I mean, what I'm feeling, what complex of feelings I'm talking about is probably quite different than what you (or someone else) means when they use the word "love." That doesn't mean there is no point in talking about love, or saying, "I love you," but it does behoove us to remembe that might mean anything from, "I lust after you," to "I'd walk over burning coals for you."

So too with religion. In fact, I would argue that religions like Islam have to be open to multiple interpretations because 1) they attempt to address communities spanning different continents and eras, 2) they attempt to fulfill the spiritual needs of a hugely diverse population. We each have our own path to the Divine... some are mystics, some puritans, some asetics, some respond to legal/ritual frameworks, some respond to spirituality. Any religious text that hopes to be meaningful to more than a single subset of humanity has to be able to be interpreted in various ways in order to accomodate that diverity in human experience of the Divine.

At the same time, there are clearly limits to interpretation. Just as "love" cannot encompass loathing, so too there are interpretations that do clear violence to the text. Most of the anti-Islam posting on forums such as this are in fact among those that do clear violence to the text.

Deb -- maybe the problem lies in your premise... that Islam is against freedom of religion... I mean, that would be the obvious explanation for how an American woman who was raised to love freedom of religion (and I was and I do) could convert (and there are quite a few of us... I think the count is around 1 million or so.)

Asim --

There is a huge difference between a certain group of Christians committing a horrible crime, and the central figure of a religion carrying out whatever acts he carried out. We can argue about whether the Prophet (or anyone, say modern America in the Rosenberg case) was justified in punishing treason with death, or even whether the event actually happened, but we cannot deny that his actions are normative while those of the Serbians are not. That is, for huge portions of the Muslim world the Prophet defines what is and is not Islamic, while the Serbians have no such authority, and indeed, their actions would be rejected as un-Christian and viewed with horror by most Christians.

We have to compare apples with apples, not pull the worst of what some adherents of some religion have done, and compare it to normative beliefs of another.

As for a resource for searching the Qur'an -- I like Hanna Cassis's Concordance of the Qur'an. It is organized like an Arabic dictionary, by root, and I find it quite easy to use rather. Much easier than trying to guess, was "rahma" translated as mercy, compassion, generosity, kindness, etc, etc, etc. It's a bit pricey, but very worthwhile.

Online, this is an invaluable resource: http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/ with various modes to search. Its counterpart for hadith is: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

On a slightly more accessible level is "The Essence of Islam, According to the Qur'an and the Tradition" by Syed Hashim Ali Akhter, which lists Qur'anic verses and hadith by topic. It's very easy to use, a good introduction to each topic. It's not exhaustive, but it does have a lot of wonderful information.

Joseph -- Actually, I find American law far more compliant with shariah than Saudi law, as do most Muslims who live here.

And Victoria -- I'm with you on "there is no need to renounce those verses." The Qu'an itself makes it clear they were not a call for unbridled hostility and agression, that they were for a limited time period only, after which it established peace and harmony between religious communities, allowing for friendship, fellowship, even intermarriage. The Qur'an does not call for killing all "infidels" so how can one renounce it?

One can, however, denounce people who pick and choose, ignoring the rest of the text and all historical circumstance, to further their own political agenda -- people such as Bin Laden. It is telling that his orginal demands were: Israel out of Palestine, US troops out of Saudi Arabia, overthrow of the Saudi government. No where do I see a religion goal -- no destroy their way of life, overthrow all non-Muslim governments, etc. He is using religion for political ends, and that alone is reason enough for condemnation. Politics and religion should not mix; the results as we have seen for millenia, are horrific. (I might add that certain atheists have not been much better at avoiding horrific abuses of human rights.)

So too, one can renounce violence. I don't believe in war (although I do believe in the right to self-defense.) Muslims should speak up against the horrible violence that is going on in Darfur and Iraq. We should denounce vigilante "justice" and stand firmly for freedom of conscience and freedom of expression, and due process.

You say Jesus will judge people but Jesus himself refutes and denies your claim in John 12:

John 12:44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

He may be their accuser on the day of judgment but not their judge for there is only one judge and that is the one that sent him, God and God alone.

John 8:39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Jesus testified that he was man sent by God. You don't believe him and what he testified to, yet you believe some pagan romans who wanted to make a god out of him, a mere man. Repent and don't say about God, and for that matter Jesus but the truth. Jesus is a man and prophet from God; peace and blessing of God be him and his blessed mother for ever and ever more, amen.

The mere suggestion of Sharia law by Muslim immigrants is really insulting to the non-Muslim hosts. I wonder if Muslims ever considered this fact or have any realization of the depth of the insult. It's like Christians emigrating to Saudi Arabia and insisting on a change in the Islamic law to Christian law, or at least allow Christians to ignore/bypass Saudi Islamic law for Christian laws. That would be unacceptable in Saudi Arabia or any other Muslim country - as it is unacceptable in the United States of America.

So Muslims - don't even think of asking for the introduction of Sharia law amongst yourselves (or anyone else) in the USA. You knew very well sharia law is not permitted here when you migrated, so don't ask for it. Don't even think about it. If you want Sharia you can go to Saudi Arabia.

Muhammad has added to this book and reduced Jesus to a mere man. He and all who are His followers will receive the judgment of God. Muslim, the Son of God whom you deny will be your judge. "Unless you repent you will all likewise perish"

12"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

14Blessed are those who wash their robes,[e] so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

17The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

The Seventh Trumpet
15Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever." 16And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying,

"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
and begun to reign.
18The nations raged,
but your wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants,[c] the prophets and saints,
and those who fear your name,
both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

19Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings,[d] peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

The Two Witnesses
1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. 6They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire. 7And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit[a] will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically[b] is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. 9For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, 10and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. 11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here!" And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. 13And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.

The Coming of the Son of Man
29"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Abomination of Desolation
15"So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, 'Look, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

9"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10And then many will fall away[a] and betray one another and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Signs of the Close of the Age
3As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?" 4And Jesus answered them, "See that no one leads you astray. 5For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

Concerned,

Was it not until 1920 that women in the USA were allowed to vote? Think of all the atrocities in this "Christian" nation (rape, sexual harrasment, domestic violence, unequal pay, Christian government's invasion of women's private health?) before you attack other religions/countries views of women as second or third class citizens.

Asim,

Using comparitive history to prove Islam is pure and perfect will not work. Your "wholly" book prescribes death to unbelievers and treats women like they are third class citizens. Islamics carry out the "word" 24/7 by the killing of fellow Muslims and non-Muslims. We assume you live in a free country with a free press where such daily atrocities are reported? We non-believers condemn all such injustices no matter who commits or committed them. Please do the same. Until you do, your "religion" is a sham.

Martian Valentine searched whole life for a philosophy that embodied the true egalitarianism.
The true spiritual state of all men and women...

She found this in islam.

I congratulate you,Dear Philosopher...I congratulate you.

----I am sometimes surprised some non-Muslim Americans in On Faith threads are really interested in and constantly spouting Hadiths and the Qur'an when there is no possibility that Shariah law or even Islamic Family Law will be formulated and implemented in the United States.---

Really? Well it already happens in Muslim areas of Britain.
Sharia family law is rampant (and known about by the Police) and Sharia financial rules are WELL bedded down.

And I like that the (dubious) arguement about the barabarity and prejudice of Islamic based Sharia Law is simply "It don't matter none because it won't happen here anyway".
HA! Well if that's the only defense we had better REALLY hope it never does.

asim- i would welcome your input on the israel question blog

This is the story of the Jewish tribe in Medina in the 7th century.
Before some of the posters here go back 1400 years to talk about the justice administered to treacherous Jewish tribe of Banu Qorizah in Medina, they should look at the more recent genocide of Muslims in Bosnia, Lebanon and the on going genocide of course in Palestine:

Eight thousand Bosnian Muslim boys and men were handcuffed, blindfolded and led to by Serbs Orthodox Christians and with full knowledge of the UN Dutch military unit (Protestant and Catholic Christians) to a forest in Bosnia just outside Sbernicha: they were murdered in cold blood, en masse genocide-summary executions; thou those innocent victims were European Slavs and citizens of ex-Yugoslavia, their only crime was that they were Muslim. This did not happen 2000 years ago, it happened in 1991.The total number of Muslims murdered by the Christian Serbs in that war exceeded 250,000 including mass rape of children and women in the heart of and while “Civilized Christian Europe” looked on. The number would have been much higher were not for the intervention of USA to protect whatever remained of Muslim population.

So who is violent and intolerant?

During the reign of the Prophet in the city/state of Medina early 7th century, every one was a full citizen with full civic and religious rights: the new Muslims, Christians, the Jews and the Pagans of Arabia. The Quran states unequivocally that " No Compulsion in Religion.")The Prophet who had just established the first Islamic city/state in Medina, had signed a treaty with-among others-the Jewish tribe of Banu Qorizah-to defend the new state and where the treaty stipulated that the members of this tribe being citizens of the new Islamic city-state agreed never to ally themselves with the enemies of the infant Islamic state nor to carry arms against it in exchange for granting them-the Jewish tribe- the aforementioned full citizenship rights including guarantying their protection and security. However the Jewish tribe conspired with enemies of the Islamic state and committed treason, treachery and violated the treaty. The Islamic state, lead by the Prophet defatted the aggressors on the battlefield; thereafter the Prophet and the leaders of the Jewish tribe mutually agreed to appointing an acceptable and neutral arbitrator/Judge to rule on the violation of the treaty which the Jewish tribe violated and the Judge ruled that the Jewish tribe was guilty of both joint military aggression with the enemies of the infant state as well as treason as they were citizen of Islamic state. The judge ordered the death penalty to be carried out against the treacherous members of the tribe who committed treason and aggression-as any state would do in self-defense. The numbers of those deserving the death penalty is exaggerated by Jewish sources as usual.

Compare the genocide of 250,000 European Bosnian Muslims –including the mass murder of the 8,000 Muslim boys and men-for no reason other than being Muslim to the death penalty administered against Jewish citizens of an Islamic infant state because they committed treason and aggression and violated a treaty-not because they were Jewish.

How about 1200 Lebanese civilians bombed to death by Israel last July as well as the destruction of Lebanon’s civilian infrastructure?

How about the holocaust and Apartheid imposed on the tormented Palestinians by Israel for past 60 years in refugee camps outside Palestine and in a big Concentration Camp called Gaza and West bank? Just during the last couple of years Israel slaughtered over 700 seven hundred Palestinians most of them children and women.

So who is just and tloerant and who is violent?

Victoria,

If you want to be the best Muslim you can be then renounce the militant passages and the anti-female messages of your Koran. Without that, you are living to the dictates of a religious sham. God/Alluh cannot be pleased!!!!

i searched my whole life for a philosophy that embodied the true egalitarianism i felt was the true spiritual state of all men and women-

i have found this in islam-

if i go to some corner of the world where the people have never seen electricity- or think its witchcraft or evil- their views would not stop me from using a flashlight in their presence if i needed one-

i look at people without knowledge of islam or fear of what they dont understand in the same way-

i wont sit in the dark with them becuase it gives them comfort in their ignorance- but turn on my little flashlight and confront them with the superiority of the light over their rooted prejudices

(i just made that up- ill remember it)

heres a good reason to be muslim

On the other hand, Islam is an egalitarian (equal) creed, which explicitly rejects such oppression. Men are not superior to women in Islam and women are not superior to men in Islam. Allah says in the Quran, "The best of you in the sight of Allah is the best in conduct and Allah consciousness" S49-13.

The Prophet said, "All people are equal like the teeth of a comb. There is no merit of an Arab over a non-Arab or a white over a black person or of a male over a female. Only Allah-conscious people merit a preference with Allah". Another teaching is, "Women are the twin halves of men." It is therefore difficult to imagine twin halves who do not have equal rights.

In Islam equality in spiritual and moral duties produces equality in spiritual and moral rights. The Quran reflects: "For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast and deny themselves, for men and women who guard their chastity and for men and women who engage much in Allah’s praises. For them Allah has prepared forgiveness and great reward"

this speaks to me and if it doesnt speak to others- i cannot help that but it wont stop me from being the best muslim i can be

salaams peeps-

ASIM- the reason why i bother with concerned (actually i have taken to skipping halozcel altogether as the posts are too confused)
and islamophobe in general- i because for one reason- to illustrate a balance that people can see between unreasoned fear and reasoned response-

2) to assure others who may peek in and mistake concerneds posts as representative of islam and demonstrate sabur (patience) and tolerance in action-

this is the association thinking people will remeber as being islamic behavior-

the polemicists are glaringly transparent so i think the polarity between the two becomes more pronounced when set against such radical extremist xenophobia

ABD
Is that you Allen? If you are Allen or even some other reasonable person, the way to elevate these discussions is to participate in them yourself. I do wish more people used this opportunity to learn more about where members of other faiths are coming from spiritually and intellectually.
Those who come here just to proselytize seem to be a necessary hazard, let them speak to each other and maybe the rest of us can just talk over them...

Just added proof that Muslims need a readjustment in their thinking and a rewrite of their "good" book.

Just a reminder, Mohammed was illiterate, angels are myths and the Koran was written by scribes who spent way too much time in the Sun.

And of particular interest, such a description of Mohammed in an Islamic controlled country would result in my death. Scary and the reason non-believers in Islam, don't want Muslims in their neighborhood.

"Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah" (Qur'an 8:39).

Qur'an 9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

how come it's always the same bunch of losers on this forum?

Concerned the Christian now liberated:

BTW, I’m female, and John is my (late) father’s first name (according to community custom), so I’m quite happy for you to address me as simply Soja.

Four years ago, I was hit by a car. I could have been killed instantly. I suffered closed internal head injury, loss of short term memory, and had one knee ligament torn. Yet all I have in memory of that accident today is a small superficial scar on my right knee, which I could have got by scraping it against something rough (because I tend to develop scars even with the most superficial wound).

I give the example to show that my end could have come at a time when I least expected and wanted it – I was thrilled about my new job which I had joined just the day before the day of the accident, and dying was the last thing I had on my mind. It happens to people all the time – getting killed in accidents or with disease at an early age. So I don’t worry about the end of the world. I only need to worry about the end of my world, to do that little I can and move on. The end of the world will take care of itself.

There is a spiritual world out there – a created world between God the uncreated Spirit, and the Creator of all, and man - whether you believe in it or not. If angels and spirits, existed in all religious traditions and mythologies, then there is a good reason for it – a spiritual world exists, with beings that may be called angels, spirits, departed human spirits or whatever. What difference does a name make or what shape and form someone ascribes to them?

From the Bible verses I was referring to in my comment to Ross:

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3)

No-one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the Ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:36-39)

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So also you must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.” (Matthew 24:42-44)

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

“When, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful” (Qur’an 9:5).

“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off” (Qur’an 8:12).

“Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina. . . . Then the apostle (Muhammad) went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. . . . There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka’b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, “Will you never understand? Don’t you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!” This went on until the apostle made an end of them” (Ibid. p. 464).

Contradictions in the Qur’an

1. Who was the First Muslim?

Say: Shall I choose for a protecting friend other than Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, Who feedeth and is never fed? Say: I am ordered to be the first to surrender [aslama] (unto Him). And be not thou (O Muhammad) of the idolaters. S. 6:14
Say, verily my Lord hath directed me into a right way, a true religion, the sect of Abraham the orthodox; and he was no idolater. Say, verily my prayers, and my worship, and my life, and my death are dedicated unto God, the Lord of all creatures: He hath no companion. This have I been commanded: I am the first Moslem (Wa 'Ana 'Awwalu Al-Muslimin). S. 6:161-163

He hath no associate. This am I commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims. S. 6:163

Say (O Muhammad): Lo! I am commanded to worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only). And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him). S. 39:11-12

Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim (musliman), and he was not one of the polytheists. S. 3:67

Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic.’ And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims.’" S. 5:110-111

So Abraham, Jesus and his disciples were all explicitly defined as Muslims, but Muhammed is the first Muslim.

Allah declares he will not swear in Mecca (S. 90:1) yet he does so anyway (95:3).

Al-Shawkani
Suyuti in his book استنباط التنزيل (Istenbat al tanzeel) says: “Every thing in the Qur'an about forgiveness is abrogated by verse 9:5.” Al-Shawkani in his book السيل الجرار (Alsaylu Jarar 4:518-519) says: “Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jiziah (special tax paid only by Christians or Jews) or being killed. [The verses] about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case.”
Please note that I am not telling Muslims which verses to follow and which not. As I said earlier, I believe 100% in an individual’s right to choose his or her beliefs. However, what I am saying is that according to the Islamic doctrine of abrogation, these verses are null and void. They are contradicted by later verses, and in Islam it is the later verses which must be followed today.

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Asim,

There is no problem translating your book of death and hate passages. Renounce them and then get back to us.

M/A/M/A/ D.O.N.N.A. MAMMA bO bAMMA fEE fye moe mamma, MAMA....

You is interesting like pain in da ANON-Omous cyber thing.

You said, "..To give a small group of men the power of a "God by default" - the true original sin.." WOW!

On Moses, and on his "Freudian Slip(s) Of Genuine Prophecy" (As "DELIVERER, Novelist & Father & Messiah.... TERROR & Pass Over has some questions unresolved.

Later & SHOLOM folks.

Pamela,
On a different note: the Quran is chronicled in the order the Suras were revealed-for some one who does not memorize the Quran-many Muslims do-how can I with ease and speed refer to any specific subject and in which Suras to find , for example, what to do if I want to pull out all the Ayas on matters relating to Jihad, or status of women, or on charity; the indexes in the Arabic Quran don't adequately do that nor does for example the Abdullah Yousef Ali translation. Do we have the Quran classified by Subject/or topic that you can recommend Or Is there a Quran with adequate indexes of subjects/topics for easy refernce and research purposes? Thanks.

Pamela, Victoria, Jihadist,
Is it not clear to U that "Liberated" "halozcel" are grossly negative, dedicated Polemists on every thread with their ready-to-post misquotes and lies and they have no interest whatsoever to have a sincere and a decent dicussion, and they are always diverting us from useful dialogue. Their hearts and minds are Sealed. And the Quran had addressed such people like them-their objective is not dialogue-nice and simple.
(سواء عليهم أنذرتهم أم لم تنذرهم لا يؤمنون)
So why do you waste your time??

Soja John,

But did Jesus really say that about the end of the world?

"The New Testament specifically teaches that no one knows the time, not even “the angels” (Matt. 24: 36. See also the Joseph Smith rendition of the same verses)."

First, Matt 24:36 was, as per many contemporary NT scholars, not a saying of the historical Jesus but a later addition by an embellishing scribe.
265-. Within this Generation: (1) Mark 13:28-32 = Matt 24:32-36 = Luke 21:29-33;

http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb265.html

Second, angels i.e. "pretty wingy thingies" are mythical holdovers from ancient religions.

Fascinating info on angels and antiquity can be found at:

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/angels.html

"This belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and Assyrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an Assyrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

Ross

The Scripture in any religion is not to be considered a science treatise, for that is not the purpose for which it was written. So there is not much sense in trying to work out if the details written in it correlate with the latest peer reviewed scientific article. The scientific method is a tool to be used by human beings to discover and explain the world God created, to make this world a better place for all. So religion is not in conflict with science at all.

As to how the world may or may not end - does it really matter? Does it matter if it ends in five billion years or twenty? My world will end when I die, yours will when you die, and so it is for everyone else. All we need to make sure that we don't contribute to its end in anyway. Being good stewards of the earth by doing something about global warming, managing the earth's resources wisely, and preventing nuclear war, are all things we can do something about, but not about the sun falling on the moon or whatever.

As far as the Bible goes, Jesus says that only God the Father knows when the world will end, no one else - not even Jesus Himself nor the angels in Heaven, and the end will come when no one expects it.

It's the freakin Muslims that will bring about the end of the world before its time!

Flush the lot of them.

"Why then do religions have rules and regulations? To make this world a better place."

And, that blanket statement says it all.

ORGANIZED religion has done MORE HARM to the world than ANY NATURAL OCCURRANCE (otherwise known as "an act of God".

To give a small group of men the power of a god by default - the true original sin.

The Bible is a proved hoax, http://www.hoax-buster.org Did the prophet Muhammad use the Bible to help him write the Qu'ran?

PAMELA wrote;
The Qur’an talks sparingly about events at the end of earth. Generally, we see an overthrow of the natural order:

Surah 54:1:
The Hour has drawn near and the moon has split.

Surah 99:
1. When the Earth is shaken with great convulsions
2. And the earth shakes off her burdens.
3. And humankind cries out, “What ails her!”

Surah 75:
6. They question: "When is the Day of Resurrection?"
7. At length – when the Sight is dazed,
8. And the moon is buried.
9. And the sun and moon are joined together.

All that sounds pretty consistent with the scientific view.

"consistent with the scientific view" ????

You're joking ???

It is so unfortunate that even matters of personal faith are lashed out with insults instead of promoting understanding and reciprocation.

I think many protoganists to this debate would rather listen to their own voices instead reading the difference of opinion.

If this is stock of educated then may God return us to ingorance.

LKT: Amen to that.
Also, I wish some people would stop copying the same lengthy and/or incomprehensible comments into every thread on this site.

This exchange makes me weary! Wears me out to read all the thoughts and attacks and makes me wonder WHY??? Why waste your time and mine?? I am interested in some of the questions and rational reasoned responses, but so much of what is written here is just a waste of time.

Well Victoria, surah 9 talks about killing those who do not believe in Allah or the last day. Even if this does not refer to Christians and Jews it is still pretty bad, don't you agree?

How can you believe in a god that advocates violence against people for the sole reason of disbelief?

That is what I can never understand.

"An article of faith."

More commonly, "a matter of faith."

Either way, it bugs me. When I hear it, usually accompanying some outrageously unscientific of nonhistoric statement, I hear the great big click of a mind being turned off.

Also the doors and windows being shut and a sign put out saying, "I don't want to hear it, go away."

What can you do then? Intellectual discussion is closed. All you can do is go away.

Bye.

Ama Lakim Wa Salaam:

Forgot to includr this Sister P.K.T. ey al.

Jacob Jozefs: ISRAELI APOLOGY TO ALL PALESTINIAN PEOPLE :
Wa Salam & Sholom.
Greeting Brothers and Sisters.
I am a "SABRA" and my Father (expired) was in the HAGANA (The Resistence) up to 1955 (When our Prophet Albert Einstein died.
You see my dear Humates, my Father was very upset with Menachin Bahgen from the URGOON faction. So your infighting is the same CHARRA (s..t).
But the beautiful thing is that there is, In Shalah, HOPE. Please do not squander, by infighting and disrespect for each other which is equal to HUMANITY.
PALISTINE NEEDS A BRIDGE & TUNNEL AUTHORITY instead. They need to connect both end through this mechanism so GAZA & West BANK will be linked as one. So here is my gift to you.
behold: This is the main focus and priority. The will be Jobs, Commerce, Happy people, Economic growth. And best of all your own chance to prove yourselves not to the world, but to and among yourselves as a [secular} UNITED PALESTINE.
So Please Brothers and Sisters give peace a chance and your selves as a National & Soveriegnty!
I;m attaching something for your critique if any. Please let keep intouch. SHOOKRON. PEACE HUGGS KISSES HANDSHAKE L/o/v/e/ for neighbors & U.N. et al. GOOD LUCK!

There must be something genetically wrong here. What makes an American, who is conditioned to think in terms of Freedom of Religion (1st Amendment to the US Constitution), adhere to Islam which is exactly the opposite ?

Maybe too much of freedom (as in open societies like USA) is indeed bad - women go astray and they start embracing wrong ideas and people.

IN-Shalah, Greetings & Praise Our SOURCE ONE,.

Hello Cousins, Brothers and Sisters; “There is Nothing Like A Good Philosophy”

Today is: UNIVERSAL YEAR CIRCA, 4.98 Billion Year-TIME, 2007.26th.March, Calendate.

Remember my Cousins:

To "pray" is to "SPEAK" to G-D. And to "meditate" is to “LISTEN," Yes as many times as One likes and in ANY tongue or language(s)). And R.E.V.E.L.A.T.I.O.N Is the same as A,P.O.C.A.L.Y.P.S.E and is opposite or contrary to any “Secrets” or “Mystics” in ANY of the VEDIC, TIKKUN, ZILZAL, Scriptures or Suras. Therefore In Shalah & Praise the beneficent One in Ourselves. Yes!

WELCOME: Today while still being in OUR Miraculous Form [in Photo-Finite Essence) I Thank You for your time here on Space-Ship Momma/Poppa Earth, as you may appear, in either cyberspace or in the flesh and in the awareness of your Own senses via your own beautiful Carbon-Based & Microbial Life Form, both in the ANIMATE & in the INANIMATE state via ECLATS “TIME” (not your Clock or Gravity time) a/k/a TEMPERATURE OF TIME ITSELF.

TIME is inseparable from the MIZAN (Arabic for balance) of IT (G-d) which Yings & Yangs between ABSOLUTE HEAT & ABSOLUTE COLD. Example: Average TIME of the Universe or Your Own Body Temperature, or Microbial or Caterpillar, Holy Cow, Rock, Soil or Nuclear Core, Surface or Sub terrain or Planetary Temperatures radiated via ALL the animate & Inanimate things in existence.

Note: This includes “Black Body Radiation or Black Holes, Dark Energy, Dark Matter and other phenomenon. And the good news is: WE have nothing to do with these happenings. They are neither here nor there for US. But they are here only to keep our HEURISTICS busy through ECLAT MIRACLE.

R.E.M.E.M.B.E.R: Contrary to Pre-Apocalyptic thought, WE exist in MIRACLE! where BIRTH is in FACT a zero sum SIN. and Not a game of chance as Our Great Visionary(s) & Forefather Albert Einstein et a, did & do mention & proved via their Physics or Sciences. ALL this is directly & indirectly related to the COSMIC “HOLY HEAR BEAT” (hence this is purest LOVE & this pureness is “embedded & synchronized” within Our Own “i” a/k/a Your Own Photo finitely Essence). WHEREFORE Nothing is External to SOURCE ONE. This of course includes ALL of the known , or unknown Prophets or greats, of the BIBLIO CHARACTERS OF THEIR TIMES PAST as recorded History in either in Writing AND Oral hearsay .

The purpose or reason is that: ECLAT or SOURCEONE (G-d by any name) DID NOT WANT TO BE LONELY. Thus G-d is ETERNITY AVOIDING LONLINESS , IT in US and US in IT via the PALANDROME a/k/a The UNIVERSAL SYSTALTIC “CYCLE” or “VIBRATION” thus you are a inseparable entity and in “The Middle” of G-d business or job, which is IT Expanding & Contracting ITSELF Eternally, via a omnipresence and being in THE-TEMPERATURE and in and of TIME-ITSELF. Note: This REALITY a/k/a/TRANSFINITY does “NOT” apply to ANY HUMATE purporting to be of such molecular incarnation.

To fight over a name for G-d is SINFULL in every sense of the word (written or otherwise). You are your own (includes family & Humanity) enemy's and you have yourselves & your PRE-APOCALYPTIC belief SYSTEM(s) to blame.

Grandma-SUN, Space-Ship-Mother Earth, Sister MOON, Brother MARS et al will also one day go POOF-TIME. (Those of you who read my TIME (not clock knowledge) Philosophy WILL KNOW that: They will not be fore-ever either. Fate will also fall upon GrandPa – Milky Way GALAXY too. :-('
An Apocalypse [R.E.V.E.L.A.T.I.O.N.] for Correction of SIN, is NOW. And the neurons of the Humates MIND is to understand & to actually experience like no other of Its kind, the PHOTOFINITY of your own LIGHT source & the MUSICOLUM more clearly, like going FROM> Caterpillar >TO: Butterfly Odyssey . Therefore the case for a HEAVENS in wait for the MATYRED , via that ambiguous and psychotic word “JIHAD” et al, is a “PRIMITIVE” act or intention, therefore & therein IT will be used against you & posterity because the Real Blame starts in your Local Mosques, Temples, Synagogues etc.. of worship and the indoctrination of your IMAM, RABBI, PRIEST, MINISTER, LAMA etc & not to mention guilty tithes extraction & non interest Economy & your lopsided Tax System if any. Important: THEOCRACY & SHARIA must be abolished since those systems have NO-PLACE on Space-Ship mother Earth & Beyond. .

BEHOLD: To Be truly blessed and to have a TRANSFORMATION experience to become a “ONE-LESS” Pre-Apocalyptic believer and “Convert” into “ONE-MORE” ECLATi-ON, all one has to simply do is to engage in, eager, open dialog via “THE FAITH EXCHANGE.” And Here , I give your Nation(s) the recipe for obtaining genuine HEURISTICS with the ability to use, as a CRUXOLOGIST (As Is My Ordained Title) and applying the “Tool” or the knowledge of the “INSIGHT AND PATTERN RECOGNITIONING” For the RECONCILIATION OF ALL FAITHS/BELIEFS as RELIGION or NONE AT ALL.

Note: COMPARITIVELY My Faith is yours & yours is mine however free & discrete in teaching MORALITY via any written tautology of Lore. This means, as I see It, Morality & Compassion is more about action than those tautological words inscribed, by Men NOT G-ds, as the by product of ALL “Scripture” or “Sura” et al. So you & I know this is a truth that is self evident. Also keep in mind that ALL the known PRE-APOCALYPTIC faiths, beliefs or religions not meeting the great INFIXUS TEST, is DEAD & GONE as of NOW. Thus all your false thinking will just go POOF-TIME and out of the forest of your mind.! Suddenly you will be truly with One & wide open intellectually.
Important: Secular Man Kind will not wait nor tolerate 400 more years of them to go completely poof-Time on their own. Understand? Thanks Brothers & Sisters of Space-Ship Earth! Below the Infixus Test involves the major “Holy Books” Example: The Holy BIBLE of the JEWS and the CHRISTIANS, AND The Holy GITA of the HINDUS and The BUDDHISTS, AND The KORAN of The MOSLEMS and The MUSLIMS. Fact: ALL three are PROPHETICALLY necessary to EACH Others denomination for the APOCALYPTIC purpose of “GOING SYNERGETIC” with ONE ANOTHER toward WORLD PEACE under the elevating INFLUENCE of the INFIXUS TEST through which they can bring out the DEEPER PROPHECY for that TRANSFINITE result which is NOW!

The HOLY INFIXUS TEST: For BALANCE of RELIGION & SCIENCE among World Wide Humanity on Space-Ship Earth: As Translated by the “LIGHT BRINGER” into the most necessary “60 Words” of American-English, which can be re-translated into ANY number of the Humate Tongues (words) of other Languages throughout the world and SPACEFORTH into the “Creature language” of other worlds, if and where necessary, for the purpose that this INFIXUS reflects, as long as “The Translation” MEANS THE SAME THING and now this is WHAT TO DO NEXT
[*** Thee 60 Words: [ ANY teaching that is substantiated by the LAWS OF NATURE and at least two (2 or >) of the three (3) books entitled HOLY BOOK and BHAGAVAD GITA and GLORIOUS KORAN or ELSE NOT CONTRADICTED, by at least two (2) of them SHALL BE A VALID PART OF THE “NEW SONG” to USHER IN the APOCALYPSE of the EARTH as promised (us) in those THREE BOOKS. This test will give the people of the Infixus Books a “Democratical Voice” after each of them has cast its vote on the question or issues raised “By The People” addressing those “Books” of Scripture, either directly themselves or through their APOCALYPTIC “Researchers” or their CRUXOLOGISTS (Of which I AM) or their REVELATION MINISTERS who will be studying the INFIXUS BOOK(s) for that PROPHETIC PURPOSE, and without selfishness or jealousy, utilize more & more, our great computers of our current & future speeds, which will synergetically expedite the Infixus Program with an Infixus DATABASE a/k/a APOCALYPTI-COMPUTERS THAT SHALL CONTAIN THE MEANING OF THE “SIXTY (6o) words” THAT WILL CHANGE THE WORLD FOREVER -”Peoplwise.” This is easily possible today 7 can be done within 25-50 years from now. Slowly but surely, and step by step, line by line. Sura by Sura, sentence by sentence , here a little there a little.... that will result in an EFFECT much G*R*E*A*T*E*R than the simple sum of the Infixus Books as were being used by the People of the Space-Ship Earth, during the Pre-Apocalyptic times at is has DEVIDE THE NATIONS AGAIST THEMSELVES. History is our Jury. ***]

Peace, Health & Prosperity be upon ALL SECULAR & ECLATi-On MEN & WOMEN.
Praise be G-d, Our ECLAT FOREVER FROM THE HOLY HEART BEAT given me via your COSMIC “ONE”!
I LOVE YOU MY FELLOW HUMATES. Because an Ex-Muslim saved my life and I want to repay Farook Essa (from Yemen) and to ALL His Brothers and Sisters who are now mine too. Meaning you too. yeah SHOLOM.

From Your JOKTANIAN Brother: Yakub Yosif, Not PELIG [ Ah Walaekim Al Salaam! ]. :-)'.

is that a value statement?
what do we infer by that fact?
that 95% of the worlds people dont consciously question or change their thinking or are so indictrinated that they never change?

when was this study done?
nobody asked me

how does that fit in with american statistics on atheists and peoplelike me who converted to another religion?

does that make our views more considered and hence more valuable?

that doesnt seem reasonable

The majority of believers in religion owe their faith to an accident of birth. As per John Hick, a noted British philosopher, almost 95% of people of the world fit this category.

Bottom line: Various religious beliefs in the end-of-the-world scenarios are a result of an accident of birth. Those that are in this category should pause and consider this situation.

Even the authors of the various scenarios wrote their views as a result not by God’s inspiration but via an accident of birth.

For example, Revelations (92-96 CE) was written by a Jewish Christian “prophet” named John who was neither John the son of Zebedee nor the writer of the Johannine Gospel or of the Epistles. (Raymond E. Brown, An Introcuction to the New Testament, Doubleday, NY, 1997, p.774). Putting such faith in your own birth situation and that of various “prophets” should be a cause of concern to anyone.

As noted before, what we do know is that life as we know it will end sometime between now and 3-4 billion CE with the Sun going non-nuclear, an impact with an asteroid or by a nuclear war.

FRIEND,

Can we interpret anything you say correctly or do we all have our own interpretation of what you are saying? If that is the case are you worth listening too? Words lose there meaning in the world you are living in so we should not even use words if what your are asserting is true. Therefore, you should not try to tell us anything because we all have our own interpretation and none of us will get your intended meaning anyway. I guess you are wasting your time by trying to say anything to us? What futility.

Pablo

I appreciate the openness of BC abd Viejita in being able to recpgnize that there are extremists who abuse religion to try to justify their own questionable ends-
I dont really imaginemostmuslim in the world and petty much all of us in the west have access to which passages or what reasoning process soemone like bin laden has used himself-
so how any one would have that information to KNOW what passages they are abusing is something none of us really have any knowledged about. Unless someone has been in his comapany and heard his speeches and reasoning we just dont know what is oging on in his militant head.
But since 911 many many christians have taken up ireading the quran with intentions to dissect and find something to justify their own biased desire to hate muslims and islam-
not because they are jsutified by the quran- not because they have found anything-
but quite like mr bean above- many pseudo-scholars have latched onto one half sentence and interperted it with the same extreme or fundamental literalist mentality that others have similarly abused-

note the differences in the passages quoted above-
for instance years ago i was studiying the quran in depth- and went through all of the 9th chapter - with a scholar of arabic and quran- and in the context of the entire chapter and historical perspective- from a rich analysis it truly never occurred to me or any of the other students to mean that we could kill christians and jews wherever we find them- not because we are dense or ignoring uncomfortable or inconsistent verses- but because it simply didnt say that and christians and jews were added by bad tranlsators -

even a cursory readng of 9-1 to 9-10 or so will not garner that meaning- but i dont have the inclination to be an apologist for islam-
if something is wrong im not going to try and force it to mean something else-
if something were inherently violent or aracist or xenophobic i would reject islam altogether-
but it isnt the case-
unfortunately there are many muslim-fearful christians out there looking to find reasons for their own anxieties- and to try and make others anxious.

having spent over 20 years studying the bible before i became muslim (and there are over 200 versions) there are certainly many strange and inhuman stories related-

in relation to the statement of your egyptian-born colleague i would add that every single thing in the world is in submission to ALLAH (the god) -even the rocks and mountains and birds....

OH JESUS PLEEZE ALL THAT TALK ABOUT MOI CUMMING IS A BUNCH OF BS!!
ITS ALL A SCAM RUN BY MONEYGRABBING HOMOPHOBIC PREACHERS , SHE JESUS/GOD IS NEVER CUMMING BACK BECAUSE SHE DOESNT EXIST ITS A FARCE DEAR READERS DONT LET THEM SELL YOU ALL THIS HOKUS POKUS .RELIGION IS THE PROBELM AND NOT THE ANSWER.

All religions are man-made, as a reaction to the mysteries people encounter confronted by their own existence and the contemplation of the universe. Since they cannot find answers, they quite understandably just make them up. Hence the thousands of cults and religions through history.

Since all religions are man-made, they follow the logic, living conditions, rules, dreams and imaginations of the authors at a given time, be it Jesus, Mohamed or Joseph Smith, plus dozens and dozens of others which pop up every now and then (a friend of mine followed one of those more recent "revelations", but fortunately dropped off after some while.).

Since religions originally are tribal "Truths", they must be enforced by deadly threats and idiotic promises of reward (72 virgins, gosh, how that hurts.).

The infantile dichotomy of heaven and hell is a punch in the face of every decent psychological finding, of every honest assessment of the complicated nature of man, which is a caleidoscope of changing grey shades. Manichaeism, the cult of black and white, is what drives people to commit the most atrocious crimes, as can be seen in modern politics (Bush, Bin Laden, Ahmadinedschad etc.).

Now, of course WITHIN these systems you can create the most sophisticated differentiations, arguments, comparisons, without ever corroborating the real value or lack thereof of the system itself. The dance of the angels on the pin, the heaven and hell threats, the anti-women verses of the Quran (they may be beaten, as we just heard in a judicial trial in Germany), are all completely compatible once one has accepted the particular system, Christian, Moslem or otherwise.

I don't know quite exactly what "shirk" means, but I gladly accept it - it does not have anything to do with me. I even accept the joy of all religious posters here to imagine me roasting in hell. Tertullian, one of the church fathers (before Mohamed!) described the main reward for the inhabitants of heaven, the loving Christians, as the joy of listening to the screams of their hell-dwelling brethren.

Can anybody out there understand that an intelligent human being with some appreciation of his own dignity simply does not join this crowd?

By the way, I am European, and proud of it.

Yes, there are many ways to interpret and understand various concepts in Islam, one need not be straightjacketed into a single interpretation. For this reason, you never know what small deed of kindness may result in forgiveness, and you never know what small deed of unkindness may result in censure. Muslims accept the Old and New Testament Bible and they accept Jesus, however, with just a couple of tiny little exceptions: The Bible has been corrupted so Muslims don't think Jesus was God and the son that Abraham took up to be sacrificed was not Isaac it was Ishmael. Christians can go to heaven but they have to reject the deity of Jesus and bow down to Allah. Does that not make them Muslims? Christians and Jews can live in Muslim lands but with just a couple of tiny little problems: they pay a special tax and are treated as second class citizens. Sure Christians can go to a Muslim country but with a couple of tiny little issues: women must cover their heads and no Christians are allowed in Mecca nor or any other members of any other religion. Mecca must be kept pure. Are you confused? Well, just forget the mumbo-jumbo and concentrate on actions. It is not what someone says it is what they do. 911 speaks for itself. However, in the last six months there have been over 700 acts of Islamic terror around the world. And this does not even include what goes on in Iraq. Muslim cab drivers in Minnesota will not carry passengers with pork or alcohol as the local Muslims leaders in Minnesota want to encourage Sharia law. In Islam this is called setting up a state within a state. In this case a Muslim state is being set up within the USA for the first time. Who would have guessed it would happen in Minnasota? This is colonization by any other name. Actions speak louder than words. The rest is just double talk to make you feel good while you lose your culture in the next 50 to 100 years, which in a way will be the end of the world.

A nut case is a nut case, religion is only the excuse, whether they claim to be followers of Muhammed, Jesus or David Koresh. As a Catholic I am unable to justify the abuses and excesses of some of those who claim authority in my faith; how much more difficult must it be to defend sincere Islamic submission in today's political climate. Don't even get me started on those who most vocally claim to represent American Christianity as a whole. They definitely keep me in the Papist camp.

BTW I am reminded of an Egyptian-born former colleague of mine (pre 9/11) who taught middle school literature. One of his students asked who was a Muslim and he said "We all are. It means someone who listens to God."

Pamela, you have a difficult task. Many of your readers can neither see Islam as a way of life with deep compassion and love of justice, nor understand the historical context of Qur'anic passages that relate to warfare. Neither can they look at their own traditions dispassionately from outside and see the passages in their scriptures that are just as frightening if taken literally. Eric Rudolph believed some of those biblical passages so literally that he bombed family planning clinics (killing and maiming women, including pregnant ones, in the name of stopping the death of babies). He set off a bomb at the Atlanta Olympics. He also believes that white people are superior to others and can justify it on the basis of selectively twisted biblical passages. Does this mean that Christianity is an offense to the people of the world, or only Rudolph's expression of it? Osama Bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri are a stain on the name of Islam; they have made selected passages of the Qur'an into a focus of attention for the West, creating in the process a revulsion that repels the West from the spiritual truths in their faith. You are a reasoned and thoughtful voice. The totalitarians on all sides (the militant jihadists, "Christian" radical fundamentalists, rabid atheists) are leading us on a downward slope away from courteous engagement toward insult, derision, rancor, and ultimately, death-dealing conflict. We must not let them do this, even if their voices shout louder or they carry weapons.

"Some quote from a book"

Interpretation, interpretation, interpretation....

Perhaps you don't see the contradiction because you don't want to.

The contradiction exists because you Allah has condemned disbelievers to hell forever.

Forever. When people die they cannot 'repent' and undo perceived 'wrong' according to Islamic values. When they die they die and are consigned to hell fire forever. It is too late for them to do anything since they are dead.

Thus, shirk has nothing to do with them since it is a Muslim concept that they have either no understanding of or don't care the slightest. It only affects Muslims, not non-Muslims.

Mr Bean- there is no contradiction-

here is why-

3:131 Fear the Fire, which is repaired for those who reject Faith:

English:
4.148 . Allah loveth not the utterance of harsh speech save by one who hath been wronged . Allah is ever Nearer , Knower .

English:
4.149 . If ye do good openly or keep it secret , or forgive evil , lo ! Allah is Forgiving , Powerful .

English:
72.23 . ( Mine is ) but conveyance ( of the truth ) from Allah , and His messages ; and whoso disobeyeth Allah and His messenger , lo! his is fire of hell , wherein such dwell for ever .

there is no distinction made between the prophets in islam-

it is the same on christianity- if you disobey god- hell is the destiny.

the word kafir is mistranslated as disbeliever in many english translationsof the quran-

kafir means one who has knowledge of and rejects the message of the quran and islam- or conceals the truth of it in order to mislead others.

so there is no contradiction-

Victoria,

I am only stressed when I read about the 24/7 butchery of Muslims by Muslims which could turn into global warfare. This apparently does not bother you since you refuse to condemn the root cause of this daily slaughter i.e. the militant passages of your "good" book.

The end of time as we know it - call it "The Apocalypse" (in our modern understanding of the word and not the original Greek meaning) if you may is also told by other religions. Christian eschatology has a lot to say about the "End Time". There is nothing scientific about what the Quran has to say on the matter.

As for the promise of paradise for disbelievers as long as they don't commit shirk this is at odds with other parts of the Quran, for example:

“And fear the Fire which is prepared for the disbelievers.” surah 3:131

“Surely, those who disbelieve and did wrong; God will not forgive them, nor will He guide them to any way except the way of Hell, to dwell therein forever.” (Quran 4:168-169)

“Surely, God has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire wherein they will abide for ever.” (Quran 33:64)

“And whosoever disobeys God and His Messenger, then surely, for him is the fire of Hell, he shall dwell therein forever.” (Quran 72:23)

well lib- i hope it doesnt cause you too much stress i your life- peace to you lib

Victoria,

Your religion is offensive to five billon residents of this globe.

consider your communication with me over lib- you are too offensive.

Victoria,

More dodging the issue. We all know what the Koran says. How many times do the offending militaristic passages and anti-female messages have to be produced on these pages? You act like they don't exist. They exist and are used every day by Islamic crazies to kill and maim.

Until you renounce them, Muslims are considered a threat to non-believers. Please go to some Islamic country where you do not pose a risk.

i cant renounce them lib because theyre in your head-

you go read the quran - the whole thing- and study it a bit- learn what it actually says-

for mercys sake lib i could quote OT proscriptions to dash the heads of babies against the stones-

there arent any ambiguities about that-

but i dont because it is only alarmist- negative and outrof context to todays histroical relevance-

its in your head-

this is the truth- i just had a conversation with some guy in the store, and he said to me - youre not going to slit my throat are you?

im 5'2"! he towered over me the goofball!

a total stranger asked me if i thought he was going to hell- i told him truly i surely did not know that-
and then after his goofy wierdness he followed me around for a while making off the wall comments about islam- (he was just regurgitating fox news to me) and i patiently explained to him where he was misinformed and what the deal was-

then he was so surprised and he said- "youre so nice though!"
as if this were some remarkable revelation.
(notice the 'though'
andi thought of you and your fear of being in the same town as me-

ah well-

i cant renounce what isnt there lib- all i can do is try to help you understand-
so why dont you start with one exampleand well try and go from there-

forinstance- what is the most troublesome (ayat) verse to you?

as you stated- youre in america-

there are plenty of nutcases running around of every hue and cry-

i was just watching new york news and i think it was the attorney general of new jersey stated that 80% EIGHTY PERCENT!!! of all child pornography ( i forget the term he used) business comes from the united states!

be afraid of that lib-

stop watching fox news who are just creating a bogeyman to scare you with-
look at your local citys police blooter- theres plenty of horrific and unbelievable devastatins every where-
just as horrifying as what your posting-

turn on NPR and PBS-

open a quran by a respected translator

or whatever it is that goves you strength and peace

Victoria,

Address the issues.

I am not morbid. I do however fear for my family considering the number of Islamic nut cases running around.

You might not think so but a renouncement of the Koran's militaristic passages and anti-female messages would make us all feel a lot better about supposedly liberal Muslims like yourself.

Cow chapter.137.
So if they(jews,christians) believe as you believe,they are indeed on the right path.

Cow chapter.161
Those who reject Faith(islam) and die rejecting,on them is the curse of Allah.

5.72
They do blaspheme who say Allah is Christ.

5.73
They surely disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three(Trinity).

youre really a morbid guy lib

And Victoria lives in civilized country where Freedom of Religion is the law. She still however does not condemn the militaristic passages and anti-feminine messages of her "good" book. Tis very scary to have a USA citizen being guided by a war-loving religion/"good" book.

And to reiterate, the "prophet" Mohammed was illiterate. It was impossible for him to know what some Sun-baked scribe(s) was writing when the Koran was written. He believed an Allah "angel" was actually writing/receiving the Koran. Mohammed also apparently suffered from too much time in the Arabian Sun.

Hmmm,

"The devastating nightclub bombing on the Indonesian holiday island of Bali has again focused attention on the political power of Islam to motivate people to acts of extreme violence."
http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Indonesian/Islam/BBC%20NEWS%20%20Asia-Pacific%20%20Islam%20in%20Indonesia.htm

And Jihadist is on a jet?

actually lib- if you lived in an islamic country- you would simply be instructed, possibly in a similar manner to the one pamela just gave us- excellent analogy pamela-

heres a simple example- imagine youre a 2 dimensional line- just length and breadth- and imagine an apple sits on your line- you would perceive that apple only where it comes in contact with your own lineness- the heighth added would be the 3rd dimension- but you dtill wouldnt perceive it as an apple- just a line of maybe redness-

as we are n the 3rd physical dimension we can imagine the god's contact with us to be similarly limited.

while the idea of mr ( have to go look at his name) schillibeeckxs falls under a limitation-
he tries to limit the god to the same plane as people- assuming that the god is in some state of of historical or other evolution- in other words- he limits the god to the realm of time-

it seems likely that time is also like space a 3 dimensional concept.

there is a quasi-metaphysical book that is easy reading and i dont usually reccomend it but you may like it- pietr ousspensky the 4th dimension

you might like it lib- it has nothing to do with islam whatsoever-
peace lib- i hope my teasing was taken in the spirit of silliness with which it was given

Haloczel,

Well, obviously you are the Islamic pope since you alone know the only possible interpretation of verses, and can disregard every Muslim, no matter how respected or scholarly, classic or modern, who disagrees with you.

Given those conditions it is probably useless to discuss with you, however...

You have added conditions and restrictions to the various verses you cite. To 2:62 you add a ton of conditions that are not in the verse. Your insertion of "qur'an" after "revelations" is also extra Qur'anic -- God talks about all his revelations to the Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc as a unity, each segment is to be respected and acknowledged as a guide and a mercy for humankind.

Interesting thoughts on God and time, although I don't agree at all with Mr. Schillibeeckx's conclusions.

I believe that the Divine stands outside time as humans experience it, viewing our four dimensions as a whole, a gestalt as it were. Just as we can't imagine living in a two dimensional world, it is hard for us to imagine what it means for something to live outside of the dimension of time. However, I do think it is utterly possible for God to know/observe what is going to happen without that impacting our free will and causality within those four dimensions. Knowledge does not in an of itself invalidate free will.

liberated- jihadist is on a jet plane going to parts unknown-

shes from indonesia- and travels all over the world all the time- i wouldnt want to be her secretary- i dont even understand your criticism today-

despite your efforts to depict all muslim women as burkha blinded mole creatures hiding in caves-

o yes, and the men are sun baked fried brainless zombies wandering aimlessly around the deserts with their giant guns looking for americans to smite-

how do the two ever get together to make more muslim babies?

maybe its like when spock goes back to his home planet and goes sex-crazy for a few days-

lots of dark tanned baked terrorists fighting to the death for the opportnity of grabbing the sluggy mushroom colored flock of black crowlike clad mole women-

i WANT to be allowed to come out and see the sun- but the evil sunrays will kill me!!!
and my flabby gelatinous little daughters too!!

of course we mercilessly shove the boy babies out into the sun to get baked a nice raisin brown so their brains will only be fit for future brain washing-

o how i dream of freedom and coming out of my dark dirt living tomb!

well, i always have 7 years from now when i can come out of my misery and watch my some sinuous snakey leathery tanned maniac slit another maniacs throat for my pleasure-

is that about how you view us lib?

sorry lib- i have to retreat back to the comforting darkness as the blazing light from the computer is blinding my weak red eyes............

"9. And the sun and moon are joined together."

Well, I think if whatever odd-looking creatures we'd have become by the time the good auld Sun goes red giant (in something like ten billion years) aren't all over known space, I'd be pretty disappointed. ;)

On this: "Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

I've always thought this was a false dichotomy: Just cause some future point of view you'll have already made your choices, that doesn't mean you're absolved from making them.

There's just a point in any given 'timeline' where the choices already happened. :)

First an observation:

Jihadist although claiming to be a liberal Muslim never says anything derogatory about Mohammed or Islam. One concludes from this that she is in a Islamic country with strict laws against anything negative being said/typed/drawn about Islam. i.e. Jihadist would be jailed and/or stoned by Islamic truth squads for any negative comments about Islam.

With respect to prophets to include the "prophet" Mohammed:

As per as per Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary Christian theologian, God does not know the Future. From his book, Church: The Human Story of God,

"Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

And if God does not know the future, Mohammed, Jesus, Joseph Smith and Isaiah surely did not.

In two sentences of profound common sense, Schillibeeckx has reduced the OT, NT, the Book of Mormon(etc.) and the Koran to mostly good but wishful thinking of many ancient scribes.

This falls correctly in line with two of God's greatest dependent gifts, i.e. Free Will and Future.

Pause and think about it!!! (And if I lived in an Islamic country, I could be jailed for what I just typed and posted). Three cheers for the Freedom of Religion in the civilized world!!!

Surah 54.1.It is absolutely relates to a Miracle,not end of earth.

Surah 75.8 and 75.9.
They are not Scientific view,but visible view that known since Stone Age.

COW chapter(Cow is the name of second chapter)
2.62,exact meaning.Yes a christian can go to Heaven IF,IF,IF a christian rejects Trinity,Bible,Crucufixion and second coming that means IF a christian lives according to the law of Allah,yes a christian can go to Heaven.

COW chapter.111.they say,none shall enter the paradise except he who is a jew and christian.Those are their VAIN desires.

CATTLE chapter(sixth chapter).39.Those who deny Our revelations(quran) are deaf and dumb in darkness.

CATTLE chapter.49.but as for those who deny Our revelations(quran),torment will afflict them for that they used to disobey.

Surah 5.59.Say,O people of Book.....and most of you are transgressors.

Surah 5.65.If only the people of Book had believed and been righteous,we should remit their sin from them and admitted them to garden of bliss.

Let the readers make decision.

a salaamu alaikum- you ladies rock

Ms Pamela Taylor

I am at an airline lounge with nothing better to do but to peek at On Faith. Saw what you wrote and Freethought too.

On the end the world and Judgement Day, as you know, the Suras in the Qur'an are not that many, but the descriptions do fit what would happen when, say a meteor strike the world or there is a nuclear holocaust, with bodies turn up from graves etc.

And the Suras did not stop some Muslim commentators from even speculating how Jesus physically look like in coming back to fight Dajjal. Not to mention the signs of the end of the world being compiled from Hadiths.

As an ulema, you know as well as I do that Muslim scholars for centuries were and are aware that Hadiths are said to originate from so and so, transmitted by a series of so and so down the years, and compiled based on the credibility of the originators and transmitters of the Hadiths.

As you know, the Muslim compilers of the Hadiths then used the best methodology to verify/certify the Hadiths as "sahih" or otherwise. And the determination of the Hadiths being "sahih" or otherwise based on the credibility of the originators and transmitters. This was concluded centuries ago by the Muslim ulema.

As you know, studies of the Hadiths do show up contradictions and conflicting accounts, even the physical and personal descriptions of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH. And Muslims are aware of that down the centuries too. Lucky for us no one seek to modify or edit the Hadiths down the centuries too, for they do provide us with the historical perspectives of the times of the originators and transmitters. You do know that Shiites have their own Hadiths not quite accepted by Sunnis and vice versa.

Like other Muslims who studied Shariah Law, (in my case after economics and interational law to apply Islamic principles in Islamic banking), and as was done by Muslim ulema over centuries past, Suras of the Qur'an are abrogated and/or not enforced as necessary. Hadiths were and are vetted to be applied to fill the needs of the umma in the political, economic, social and legal spheres a secondary source after the Qur'an. And Hadiths are not sacred texts but compiled anecdotes in the best methodology the compilers can think of then.

I am sometimes surprised some non-Muslim Americans in On Faith threads are really interested in and constantly spouting Hadiths and the Qur'an when there is no possibility that Shariah law or even Islamic Family Law will be formulated and implemented in the United States.

Most Muslims in Muslim countries don't go into Suras or Hadiths too much (we are after all, more of an othopraxy faith) except when they are to be formalized as Shariah law or Islamic Family Law - including marraige, divorces, alimony, child support. Then debate break outs, everyone coming in with their own interpretations and reasonings. And Muslim ulema in many Muslim countries do experience pressure to keep up with or ahead of lay Muslims who question their fatwas and reasoning.

It is fortunate that the ulema is not formal and instutionalized clergy and was historically and currently comprise people from various disciplines for the pragmatic applications of Islamic principles of justice and social justice. The eyes of lay Muslims glazed over when theology is broached over the centuries and now for there is no reason to justify Almighty God that they already believe in spiritually.

It is quite a challenge to please the lay Muslim on what they want to see as applications of the Muslim faith and Islamic principles - from banking to family law. Muslim demands and expectations are high, and one can never impose anything except by the sword and gun I suppose. But then, they would come back and invoke jihad against such tyranny and oppression and reject those who imposed such. Caliph Al Mamun had an important lesson on that. I got to go. They are calling my plane

Salam and regards

Hi Freethought.

1)regards "spin" -- various classical scholars have interpreted this verse to be a reference to the end of times. To quote Muhammad Asad: "Raghib regards it as fully justifiable to interpret the phrase inshaqqa l-qamar ("the moon is split asunder") as bearing on the cosmic cataclysm - the end of the world as we know it - that will occur before the coming of Resurrection Day (see art. shaqq in the Mufradat). As mentioned by Zamakhshari , this interpretation has the support of some of the earlier com­mentators; and it is, to my mind, particularly convincing in view of the juxtaposition, in the above Qur’an -verse, of the moon’s "splitting asunder" and the approach of the Last Hour."

My reading is not a modern reading, but one of several readings acknowledged by scholars throughout history.

Further, the notion that there is only one right way to understand the Qur'an is popular with certain fundamentalist groups and those who would like to frame Islam as evil, backward, etc. The vast majority of the Muslim world, however, accepts that there are many different ways to interpret various verses, and that this very fact is a sign of God's Mercy and necessary to keep the Qur'an relevant to people of very disparate ages.

I think it is fairly obvious from the article that I am presenting my viewpoint, not trying to speak for 1.5 billion Muslims who cannot possibly have a unified belief on any but the most basic fundamentals of the faith.

2)Yes, some. Many Sufi groups have regarded shirk not so much as worshipping dieties aside from God, but the alienation of the soul from its Creator. The anihilation of the ego into the Divine -- that is removal of pride, self-directed willfulness, ambition, etc has been the central goal of sufis for centuries.

Again, there are many ways to interpret and understand various concepts in Islam, one need not be straightjacketed into a single intepretation. And one may find significance in each of those interpretations, each one enriching and deepening the others, or applying to different situations in your life.

3) Yes, there is a hadith to the effect that those with a mustard seed's worth of faith in their heart will be removed from the hellfire in Sahih Bukhari. There is also this one from Sahih Muslim - Book 001, Number 0165: It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Mas'ud that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: None shall enter the Fire (of Hell) who has in his heart the weight of a mustard seed of faith.

Since there are no options other than Hell or Heaven, obviously they are headed for Heaven.

It is intereesing that the hadith goes on to say, "and none shall enter Paradise who has in his heart the weight of a mustard seed of pride." reinforcing the concept that shirk does not only have to refer to idols.

I didn't go into it in the article, and I suppose I should have, that various narrations from the Prophet's life make it quite clear that people may well spend a short time in Hell and then be taken out and transferred to Heaven. Again, this seems quite just to me, as no sin on this earth can possibly merit a lifetime of sufferring in Hell.

Of course, one could equally say that even a lifetime of good deeds does not merit an eternity in Paradise, but given the incredible bounties of nature, I find it easier to believe in a God who is overabundant in blessing us.

As for the hadith you halfway cited, (the end reads: If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never received any good from you.")

Yes, it could well be this is a false hadith, or it could be that it is not.

Who gets to say? Obviously, there won't be agreement. Some will accept it, others will reject it. Just as the Catholic bible has verses that do not appear in Protestant versions of the New Testament, so too Sunnis and Shiis do not accept all the same hadith. Fundamentalists may accept certain hadith that I throw out because to me they are contradictory to the Qur'an either in spirit or in letter, while they ignore some that I would champion because they do not fit their view of the world and of Islam.

As with any faith, the individual must negotiate the texts of the religion with reference to reason and conscience along with classical commentaries.

To me -- and this is pretty much accepted across the board -- the Qur'an is the criterion, the final say. The hadith are supplemental, and while they are valuable as commentary upon the Qur'an, they are wholly subordinate to it. If a hadith contradicts the Qur'an either in spirit or letter, then the Qur'an must take precedence.

As for determining if a particular hadith is truly from the Prophet or not... the collectors of hadith took pains to ensure that the chain of narrators from the Prophet to the collector was intact, but they did not vet for content. There are some hadith which have been rejected by the majority of scholars despite the fact that the chain of narrators is intact and among them are some included in the most authentic books of hadith.

As I said above, the first criteria is does this hadith violate the Qur'an. If so, then I would disregard it.

As for the particular hadith in question, much can and has been made of it. I personally understand it in the context of the huge number of hadith which talk about who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. If you read the collection of these hadith several things become clear (at least to me): intention is all important, you never know what small deed of kindness may result in forgiveness, and you never know what small deed of unkindness may result in censure. Given the variety and contraditory nature of this category of hadith, it seems to me that they should not be taken literally, but rather as exmemplary/cautionary tales encouraging us to do our best at all times, to be cautious of what we say, how we behave, how we express anger, etc. They go hand in hand with the numerous hadith which talk about what sin is the most grave (with various answers being given at different times) and what virute is the most desireable (again with different answer in different circumstances).

My final comment on this article.

Ms. Taylor writes

'Even more, one is not required to have great faith. Prophet Muhammad told us, “Whosoever dies having so much as a mustard seed of faith in his heart shall enter Paradise.”'

The quoted saying of Prophet Muhammad is from the collection called Sahih Bukhari and its saying number 22. First of all, it doesn't say "shall enter Paradise" but it says that someone having so much as a mustard seed of faith in his heart shall be taken out of the hell. Second, just a few sayings down is the following saying of Prophet Muhammad

'The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." It was asked, "Do they disbelieve in Allah?" (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them.'

So the faith equal to a mustard seed will get you out of hell but one of the reasons that you could end up in hell in the first place would be if you are a woman and you were not grateful to your husband. Of course, Ms. Taylor would point out that the saying she quoted is authentic and the one I quoted is not although they are in the same book and in the same chapter. That could be true ... and the reverse could be true too.

'Even more comforting is God promises to forgive every sin but “shirk” – that is setting up partners to the Divine. Some Muslims understand that as polytheism.'

Some? This is a misleading statement to say the least. Overwhelming majority, almost to the point of a consensus, including almost every scholar throughout the history of Islam considers polytheism as 'shirk' - the unforgivable sin. It's only a very tiny minority of Muslims who try to give it a spin that is more acceptable to the Western sensibilities.

"All that sounds pretty consistent with the scientific view."

Yes, if we accpet your spin/interpretation of it which is primarily led by your own belief and seems to have little to do with objectivity. Many, even among Muslims, would not agree with your interpretation. For example, your interpretation of 54:1 that it's about the end times is diametrically opposite to many, maybe a majority, of Muslims who believe that the verse in question relates to a miracle performed by the prophet of Islam when he split the moon. That sounds pretty inconsistent with scientific view, doesn't it. In fact, I have come across 4 different interpretations among Muslims of the same verse. Whose is the correct one? No one knows. I think that honesty demands that people like you who present these verses to non-Muslims as being consistent with science should also inform them at the same time that yours is only one of the interpretations.

Thanks.