Gay People are People Like Anyone Else

Dear Pamela K. Taylor,

I found your article extremely inspiring. I have been researching about the views of Islam on homosexuality for a long time, since I am a homosexual myself and yet I never found such stirring article.

The way you interpreted Qur'an and the way you phrased your thoughts moved me. It made me realise that the religion I was starting to question because everyone had said that it was against homosexuality, was actually welcoming and accepting. Since the same God that they say prohibits homosexuality created homosexuals.

Thank you for your enormous support, we appreciate your help deeply.

Anita.

If you read the Quran you word know better...

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Buying you out means that the owner is going to pay you to cancel the sales agreement with you so that he or she can enter into a purchase contract directly with your end-buyer

Buying you out means that the owner is going to pay you to cancel the sales agreement with you so that he or she can enter into a purchase contract directly with your end-buyer

Buying you out means that the owner is going to pay you to cancel the sales agreement with you so that he or she can enter into a purchase contract directly with your end-buyer

Ideally, it would be best if the owner paid you in cash before he or she closed with your end-buyer

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Loan The granting of the use of money, in return for the money's return along with interest

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contingency The dependence on a stated event that must occur before a contract is binding

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Unlike home equity loans, the credit line borrower only pays interest on the current principal due

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7: LOAN PAYMENTS & SECONDARY MARKETS Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae is the standardization of conventional loan forms and property and borrower standards

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For more information, see the "Overview of Loan Processing" article in the "Loan Process" section

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The game CASHFLOW was designed to give every player personal feedback

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If the second sale does not happen, the first transaction, In recent years, some lenders have been placing �seasoning� (time of ownership) requirements on loan transactions

If the second sale does not happen, the first transaction, In recent years, some lenders have been placing �seasoning� (time of ownership) requirements on loan transactions

If the second sale does not happen, the first transaction, In recent years, some lenders have been placing �seasoning� (time of ownership) requirements on loan transactions

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Will the lender give you references of other loan brokers who use this

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I am a gay muslim 28 years old, I do not like women,what can I do? I know that having sex with the say gender is a sin, I think that the only solution is to comit a succide , Do you agree with me ?
I have many questions,
- I am gay, is this my falt ?
- I do not like women and I don't know why

please help me

Dear Pamela, salam `alaykum
Thank you so much for writing this. I believe the hope for Islam's future is in people like you.

I disagree that the mukhannath in the hadith you cited, about the Prophet's wives' friend, should be read as a gay man, considering that transgender is a much better fit. There have been debates in queer studies over how to read gender-variant historical figures, for example in several American Indian tribes, as gay or transsexual. I would suggest that when someone takes on the socially contructed role of the other gender, and there's no reference to sexual behavior, then trans is the more likely reading. Another consideration is that the current definition of "gay" is a modern construction and people of earlier cultures didn't draw the boundaries the same way we would. So caution is advised when outing folks of another time and culture.

As for Muslims who get nervous when other Muslims have pleasant, civilized dialogues with kuffar, like this dialogue... It reminds me of a statement I heard spoken by a gentleman from Tablighi Jama`at once. "How can you know for sure when your Islam is correct?" he posed. I don't know, how? "When people are fighting against you! If no one is fighting you then your Islam is not correct." I felt disbelief and disgust that anyone could go through life with such a mindset, or that they would twist Islam into such an ugly shape. I have been all over the world, in many Muslim countries, and know many Muslim communities in this country. I'm glad that only a very small percentage of Muslims I've ever known hold such hardline militant attitudes. Their number is dwarfed by the hardline Islamophobes who lately have been coming out of the woodwork whenever even the gentlest, most progressive Muslims like Pamela Taylor try to say something healing and beneficial for a change.

I doubt the deep emotional problems surrounding Islam will ever improve until more believers can do as Pamela is doing, take a fresh look at the doctrines with a clean heart, a compassionate human heart free of old prejudices. Remember the Qur'an's verse 26:89 about bringing a healthy heart to Allah - ata Allah bi-qalb salim. The word salim not only means safe and sound, its form in Arabic carries the active meaning of safety as well, meaning someone who does not harm others. Pamela's essay here is a great example of how to argue what is best (Qur'an 16:125) with a heart that is salim like the Qur'an says. I think Pamela is setting a good example for doing this right, and I'm happy to see her connecting with people like this.

Right on, sista. :)

She talks so much rubbish:

1. The Story of Lot is not the only reference in the Qur'an in fact not even the main reference in the Qur'an to sex between men and sex between women:

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful." (Qur'an 4:15-16)

These are the verses the gay community like to ignore. As to the 'menwho lack masculine skill' the translation is pathetic. It is men without desire for women-i.e. old men who no longer have a strong sexual drive and eunuchs.

Pamela is as usual pandering to an imposed ideal without any knowledge of Islam except for her own made up version. and until people like her start having a debate within mainstream Islam with mainstream Muslims and not on teh fringes with people who know jack her cause is doomed.

salam, pamela. ani told me about this article last week and i think it is pretty darn good. thank you very much for your compassion and reason in this day and age. :)

Now that you understand how loans and the mortgage market works, you can begin to understand how to approach financing

Ok Anonymous. Have it your way.

It is worse in the Middle East. I was never saying it wasn't worse, just that it doesn't REALLY make us better. To come in here spitting racist venom in the first place pretty much makes you the same.

From the start you came in here spewing hate and venom toward ALL Muslims, painting them all with the same brush.

The governments you speak of do not have free citizens. So when you speak of the government, you really aren't talking about the people.

All Muslims are not evil, all Christians are not good.

I don't know why you think I hate America just for thinking that what the Constitution provides for one citizen it should provide for all.

--But you just can't bring yourself to care enough about the plight of Homosexuals to actually say anything about a mainly non-white, non-American/non-West religion!

You're a joke.--

Nothing in this statement has anything to do with anything talked about here. It is just mean and hateful.

I am Catholic, patriotic, anti-homophibic, with friends of all colors, races and creeds.

What the heck does "mainly non-white" have to do with anything. I respect the opinions of others, but that is pretty much the most telling thing you have said so far.

Even if I denounce all Muslims based on your statistic of gay hangings in Iran (which I don't really doubt), what does being "mainly non-white" have to do with it?

You words, not mine to be sure. You really should have been ashamed from the start, but now all I can do is pray for you.

The angrier you get, the less hurtful your words. You are making less and less sense. You have reduced my outrage to pity.

I said ON THE WHOLE they can live their lives like everyone else.

That does not mean they are not still open to abuse.

And my points still stand. You're just a hypocrite who hates white, Christian America MORE than you care about Homosexuals, because you refuse to acknowledge the fact that Christian America (EVEN WITH THE FAULTS I ACKNOWLEDGED AND AGREED ON!!) is still a FAR, FAR, FAR safer and tolerent place than ANY Islamic country.

But you just can't bring yourself to care enough about the plight of Homosexuals to actually say anything about a mainly non-white, non-American/non-West religion!

You're a joke.

I meant "contradicted". THAT's how slow I am.

BTW, Anonymous:

--I never said Homosexuals have it FAIR or EQUAL.--

Then please expalin what you meant by:
"Homosexuals in America can host the Oscars, be successful film stars, Tv personalities, successful singers, successful authors and can on the whole be open about their sexuality and go through their daily life just like anyone else"

Just like anyone else would be fair AND equal.

Please don't kill me for pointing out that you contracted yourself.

For future reference, you can scroll up and re-read posts before posting again.

An idiot, humbly,

Danny B.

--You're an idiot!--

--How slow are you!?--

--Idiot--

Wow! Anonymous, no name and full of rage and hate...I AM talking about you! You dish it, don't take it,and thus can't see the point.

By your nasty tone and insults I see exactly who I am dealing with. You can't see that "better in the West" does not equal good. All I was ever saying is that by mere comparison we can't play down what is happening here just because it is worse somewhere else.

--Well Islam does all that TOO.
But also adds arrest, torture and murder!!
SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT!--

What's YOUR point? Are you saying that there are degrees of harmful un-Christian behavior that are acceptable? That because one is seemingly less harmful than the other that it is OK?

That was your point in first place that I had responded to.

Sorry I'm an idiot, Sir/Ma'am. Your kindness in only pointing it out is noted. I realize that I could be killed in other places for being the idiot I am. Thank you for having mercy on me by only using hate talk.

An idiot corrected,

Danny B.

Fell free to go to any Islamic country and happily a hang around the cities openly Gay clubs, Gay bars, Gay pubs, Gay hang-outs and entire Gay quarters of the city of your choice.

The thing is though you won't be able to...Because there won't be any such places.

---.Exclusion, slurs, causing people to question their self-worth just because these "Christians" can't accept the separation of church and state is not that much better than what you indicate we "don't do".----

Well Islam does all that TOO.
But also adds arrest, torture and murder!!
SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT!

Danny B.:

You're an idiot!

I never said Homosexuals have it FAIR or EQUAL. Nor did I say Christians treat them as fair as they should.

BUT...There is still NO COMPARISON AT ALL to how Homsexuals are treated by Islam!!!

How slow are you!?

You can whine all you want about Christians (AND I AGREE!!!) but the facts are still the same...Gays in The West have a FAR safer, fairer time of it than they do under Islamic rule!!
F A C T!!!!

Or are you yet another pseudo leftist who hates America and Christians for being Homophobic, but is so politically correct and bias that he refuses to acknowledge that MUSLIMS AND ISLAM ARE FAR WORSE!?

Typical double standards.

You show me the statistics of how many homosexuals have been executed in America for being homosexual and you may have a leg to stand on.
Last year ISLAMIC IRAN hung 114...feel free to compare that to America/The West.

And I did say...oh slow one...I know (and indeed i do know) how bigotted Christians are.
In fact how most members of organised religions are.

But that still does not mean that Christianity in 2007 comes anywhere near the levels of MURDEROUS homophobia that Islam shows.

F A C T!

--You clearly miss the whole point of the discussion at hand. Gay people can't go through their life JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE...yet!-----

How true. BUT THEY ARE A LOT CLOSER TO IT IN AMERICA AND THE WEST THAN THEY ARE UNDER ISLAM.
A HELL OF A LOT CLOSER!!!

Idiot!

Dear Pamela posted march 6 3.41 PM.Your first,second and third sentences reflect your own interpretation not absolute situation.Many scholars didnt and dont interpret like you since centuries.What is House of War?..You give one example 5.69 and let me give many 5.57,5.58,5.59,5.63,5.64 they(jews)shall be cursed..,5.65,5.66.In that case your example can be considered one of hundred contrdictions in Book.Besides,5.69 doesnt rule out 2.191 and 2.193.Another example 5.48. and I ask Where is the prescribed law to Japanese,Chinese,Hindus,black africans and Sitting Bull(red indians) arent they beloved peoples of God?.You say,one can find many tons of misinformation about Islam on the web.Are you only Art Interpreter in the world?.Can you say exact meaning of Elephant Chapter?.You say we have to learn to live in peace.Dear Pamela,couldnt you learn since 14oo years?.Is it our fault or Teachers or Books?.Honey and Vnegar.Germany pop.82 mil.GDP 3000 bil dollars,Egypt pop 78 GDP 300 bil.dol....Japan pop 130 mil.GDP 5000 bil.,Pakistan pop.170 mil.GDP 475 bil dol.Which one Honey?

Anonymous (get a name for goodness sake),

I see by the nastiness of your reaction that that you know in your heart how ridiculous you are.

"How stupid!"

Now I know that I am talking ABOUT you, not just to you.

"Well if i had a choice of having some preacher state that i am a sinner or being executed...I'd choose the words!!"

A preacher merely pointing out sin is not what I am talking about, and either you know it, are stupid yourself, or are EXACTLY who I am talking about.

As I stated before...Exclusion, slurs, causing people to question their self-worth just because these "Christians" can't accept the separation of church and state is not that much better than what you indicate we "don't do".

Furthermore you state; "Homosexuals in America can host the Oscars, be successful film stars, Tv personalities, successful singers, successful authors and can on the whole be open about their sexuality and go through their daily life just like anyone else"

You clearly miss the whole point of the discussion at hand. Gay people can't go through their life JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE...yet!

---It's like you are saying that psychological abuse is way better than physical abuse---

Well if i had a choice of having some preacher state that i am a sinner or being executed...I'd choose the words!!

How stupid!

And i said I know (and indeed i do know) how bigotted Christians are. In fact how most members of organised religions are.

But the fact still stands that Homosexuals in America can host the Oscars, be successful film stars, Tv personalities, successful singers, successful authors and can on the whole be open about their sexuality and go through their daily life just like anyone else...despite the obvious bigottry that still exists from some people in various forms.

Compare that to to Homosexuals in an Islamic states though, where they could be arrested, tortured, imprisoned and even executed for simply existing and where those that do survive have to keep their homosexuality a secret.
SORRY PAL, but despite the barmy Baptists in Amemrica and the stinking Jerry Falwell's of this World, NOTHING compares to the barbarity and actual state sanctioned death that Homosexuals face under Islam!

Just as Muslims will moan and whine about every little so called compromise when living in The West...while at the same time Christians in Muslim lands are literally in fear of their lives even if they are able to practice their religion at all...there is no comparison between Christian/Secular rule and Islamic rule!
No comparison at all!!!

Anonymous writes:

"But the fact is The West/Christianity does not execute homosexuals and Priests do not stand up in church and call for them to be murdered!"

"THAT'S the difference!"

I don't think that the attitude toward gay people in this country by so-called "Christians" is that much better. It's like you are saying that psychological abuse is way better than physical abuse.

The fact of the matter is that hate is spewed from the pulpit in this country, and helps congregations believe that they are "loving the sinner while hating the sin".

Gays have been slandered by the GOP to encourage "Christians" to turn out and vote...and it worked! That's all it took to increase voter turn-out...how very Christian on all sides.

The KKK hates gays, as well as the Neo-Nazis and they believe that they are Christian as well. If they thought they would get away with more violent tactics they would be doing it.

Exclusion, slurs, causing people to question their self-worth just because these "Christians" can't accept the separation of church and state is not that much better than what you indicate we "don't do".

Anoymous,

You are right. Persecution of gays in the US is a crime, and the rare instances of violence against them are received by the general populace with horror, while it is a state policy in various Muslim countries with much of the populace cheering it on. A huge difference.

That is why it is so important for Muslims such as myself to stand up and say, "No More. This is not acceptable." And to provide strong reasoning from the Qur'an to back up our positions. Since these horrific excesses are done in the name of Islam, we must use Islam to counter them. (along with other tools like consciousness raising, etc.)

There are human rights groups in place like Iran, who are doing just this. We can support them financially, or with moral support. We can put pressure on these governments to change -- write their embassies, or their presidents, or kings. We can put pressure on our government to say to our allies amongst them, "If you want to keep this nice cozy relationship with us, you'd better improve your human rights record."

I hate all you religious madmen.

You've sent this world screaming backwards, covered in blood, through the centuries!
When 2000 arrived the last thing I expected was to see religion of ALL KINDS (though Islam is the king sturd on the sh1t pile) push this world towards the edge of the abyss!

I hate you all.
I have a 2 year old Daughter and thanks to SCUM like you she will grow up in a world that is nothing more than a festering battlefield between the evil, hateful Islam and the ignorant, bigotted Jews, Catholics and Christian off-shoots.

Laughable, fantasy religions (populated by bigots, madmen, the corrupt, the stupid, the psychos) that should have died out centuries ago are instead going to be THE defining aspect of this world for countless years now...

Stinking Muslims with their Jihad and terrorist acts in the name of their piss-God Allah and lousy Christians/Jews/Catholics and their need to 'spread the word' of their mythical God have plunged this world into a darkness not seem for centuries...Only now they have the weapons and technology of the modern world to use to blast us ALL back into the dark-ages.

Damn you all for what you have done to my country, my society, my family's future, the future of all of us and damn you all for what you have done to the world.

ROT in your perspective Hells!

Halozcel,

First, this is God talking to the angels...

8:12 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying:) I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

It's not a command to human beings. It's talking about the spiritual/moral support God and the angels would give to the community of Medina in the midst of their conflict with Mecca. The angels, evidently, did not do a physical smiting but a symbollic or spiritual one, as we have no record of people suddenly losing their heads and fingertips.

Second, as I've said in other responses, many of the verses that deal with the conflict were superceded by others establishing peace, the sharing of home and hearth through intermarriage and sharing of food. These verses cannot be understood as establishing a permanent state of war, but commenting on the struggle of the day.

The verses which are universal and permanent say, "This day I have perfected your religion for you (...) This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness."

The Qur'an also says in numerous places: "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." This instance is in chapter 5:69. If God is promising Heaven to Jews, Christians, Sabians, Muslims and any who believe in God and the Last Day and so good works, what justification can there be for war between Muslims and those folks??

Third you cannot pick a piece of scripture here, and a piece of it there and hope to understand anything. The Qur'an says, "Let there be no compulsion in religion." 2:256. And: 5:48 "To thee [Muhammad] We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Again... if God doesn't coerce people to be Muslim, how can the community of Muslims strive to do so?

One can find many tons of misinformation about Islam on the web and in the publications of people who hate it a priori. I wonder what the point is of dwelling on such distorted views of Islam... 1) we have to learn to live on this small planet in peace, lest we destroy ourselve and it, 2) you catch more bees with honey than vinegar.

---Homosexuals is still an issue for Christians too---

Well now! you don't say!!

Yes i know that. And screw them too.

But the fact is The West/Christianity does not execute homosexuals and Priests do not stand up in church and call for them to be murdered!

THAT'S the difference!
Iran hung 114 Homosexual men last year...Compare that to even the deepest of deep south America, or The Vatican.

---Homosexuality is an abomination---

Morons like you are an abomination.

Dear Writer says,The Quran is quite adamant that there is to be NO COERSION in religion...When your Lord revealed to the angels,I am with you,therefore make firm those who believe.I will cast TERROR into the hearts of those who disbelieve(non muslim).Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.Noble Quran 8.12

Halozcel,

Most commentators understand 4:15-4:16 as dealing with adultery -- setting out very stringent witnessing requirements for a woman (and jurists extend this requirement to men as well) to be charged with adultery (four witnesses to the act...)

4:15 And as for those of your women who become guilty of immoral conduct, call upon four from among you who have witnessed their guilt; and if these bear witness thereto, confine the guilty women to their houses until death takes them away or God opens for them a way [through repentance].

4:16 And punish both of the guilty parties; but if they both repent and mend their ways, leave them alone: for, behold, God is an acceptor of repentance, a dispenser of grace.

Again, most traditional commentary has seen this to be discussing adultery and/or fornication, not homosexuality, and the both the guilty parties being the man and the woman. A few have said that 4:16 would also apply in the case of homosexual acts, as at the time the notion of gay marriage had not been considered, so any gay sex was a priori extramarital.

Either way, I understand this ruling as a measure against public indecency. If you have to have four witnesses to the act, well, that's pretty public! Most of us do not engage in sex (hereto or homo)in such a way as to be visible to four witnesses.

My professor of Islamic law told our class that there were no recorded instances of anyone being convicted by four witnesses, it is that rare. Whatever convictions there may have been were based upon confession.

More recently, things have gone awry, and pregnancy or charges of rape have been used in some countries to convict women although the Qur'an quite clearly states there should be four witnesses.

I believe the point of the verse is actually to protect women (and men)from false accusation, by placing very stringent witnessing requirements.

Unfortunately, as well as know, the "Islamic" governments of the world are all too often unIslamic, or even anti-Islamic.

Their treatment of women and gays top the list of ways in which they violate not only the spirit but even the letter of the law.

Progressive Muslim writer says,Most Muslims believe that homosexual acts are a sin,I disagree.Banker asks,tell me what we muslims should do about the homos then? and Art interpreter says,enlighten us then......If any of your women are guilty of lewdness(lesbianism).....confine them to house until death takes them away.Nobel Quran 4.15 If two men among you are guilty of lewdness(homosexuality) punish(torture) them both.Noble Quran 4.16.

Jonathon Switzer

There are numerous passages in the Gospels and Epistles that indicate that the Kingdom of Heaven was going to come in the lifetimes of people who had seen Jesus, or at the very least, in the lifetimes of the New Testament writers. In fact, Jesus is quoted as saying this himself, for example in Matthew 16:28 and Luke 9:27. I leave it as an exercise for you to find other examples of this claim in Matthew, Mark, and John.

Either those predictions were wrong or the Kingdom of Heaven means something different than you think it does or maybe the Bible is simply not internally consistent. Maybe you should not be so sure of yourself.

Ms. Taylor:

I am very moved by your writing.

You, my friend, are one who truly understands what is means to live and participate in a great secular society like that of The United Sates of America. You have not compromised your faith, and regardless of one's particular faith, we can all learn something from you.

I was raised a Catholic by very devout parents who still believed that differences in others are good, not to judge or exclude others with different beliefs, and that doing so should not compromise my own faith. Sometimes I found this to contradict what I was being taught in the Catholic school they paid for me to attend. I admire them for knowing they needed to impress these points upon me themselves.

I could not imagine exercising the power of my vote to make things uncomfortable for other people I don't even know. I don't understand how people who believe that they are moral don't see the hypocracy of intolerance, nor how they could reduce another whole human being to a singular aspect of their personality in order to do so.

Thank you for sharing. I hope you can soften some hard hearts who will read this.

Not just pillows, but hankies too.

Ezekiel 13:18 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

13:21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

For what it's worth, the book of Ezekiel has this to say about the sins of the people of Sodom.

16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

It seems fundamentalists like to obsess over the sex and they forget this part. Naturally they will accuse me of cherry-picking verses, but of course everybody cherry-picks when they try to use scripture to make a point -- any point.

(Of course, in the same book YHWH reveals through this prophet that he really hates pillows. These old books can be hilarious in places).

Now this Muslim God is a God I can Believe In!!

what a wise, compassionate post. Ms Taylor, you transcend the limits of human ability, and if the God you believe in can inspire you to such elevated spiritual places, that's the kind of God I can worship (atheist that I think I am).

(Victoria and Jihadist: peace and love to you both, you energetic and loving humans)

One of the true and positive benefits of the Post forum here is that it has given me a deeper love and understanding of my Muslim sisters and Brothers.

And this column blew me away.

Jonathan Switzer,

Muslims believe that Prophet Jesus PBUH will come as the Messiah to restore peace before Day of Judgement comes. I will wait for him then to save my soul. Thanks for reminding me of salvation, to repent for whatever sins I've committed to God, and to pray for homosexuals too on their abomination and sin.

Is "Kingdom of Heaven" that movie directed by Ridley Scott? I saw it. Not bad at all:)

Homosexuality is an abomination. That being said, we are all sinful and in need of salvation. God gave us that grace in Jesus Christ. He is our salvation. Repent and be baptized, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Anonymous:)

Breath. Homosexuals is still an issue for Christians too, from gay clergy to gay marraiges to gay bashing.

We all want our religions to be what it is supposed to be, not what some who claim themselves to be true Christians or true Muslims had wrought in the name of God against their fellow men.

While you are obssessing about Muslim treatment on gays, Hollywood conveyed to the whole world, American treatment of gays from "Boys Don't Cry" to "Brokeback Mountain".

Countless imams can call for this and that and issue their own fatwas, but without the force of the Shariah courts, there's nothing they can do to enforce them.

Do bear in mind that some of the imams let in by the west as refugees were rejected by their Muslim country of origin as wackos.

Strange then how countless Imman's (even in The West) call for the death (crushing by walls, throwing off mountains) of Homosexuals...
Strange how so many Muslims OPENLY spit hate at Homosexuals based on their religion...
Strange how Homosexuals in Muslim countries are persecuted in ways that make The pope look like a 'Scissor Sisters' fan....
Strange how, under Islamic Sharia Law, Homosexuals are arrested and executed for simply being Homosexuals.
Last year 114 Homosexual men where hung!

Whatever you THINK Islam is like, however you HOPE Islam will act, however you are SURE it should act...IT DOESN'T ACT THAT WAY!
In real life, in the real world, Islam (like almost all organised religions, although it's on a level of it's own) HATES Homosexuals...Often to a murderous level!

Ashfaq

As you well know, Hadiths are refered to for Sunnah and in formulating Shariah laws on matters not stated in the Qur'an.

I do suggest you find a Muslim scholar on fiqh. Or rather, many Muslim scholars. No two will give you the same interpretation.

The Grand Mufti of Egypt may issue fatwas which Indonesian Muslims, with their own Grand Mufti and Council of Muftis, may not subsribe to.

What is stated by the Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar University may not be agreed to by the Imam of the National Mosque of Malaysia.

After studying "secular" subjects at the tertiary level (economics and international law) I took up Shariah law, studying fiqh too. Helps me to devise and finetune financial istruments based on sukuk principles in Islamic banking and financial system. And I really don't want to get into fiqh and Shariah laws here when many are still on Islam 101.

Muslims are updating Shariah law too. I hope the Gate of Ijtihad being reopened in many areas of Islamic jurisprudence does not make you uncomfortable. For example, Muslims are still arguing about sukuk principles. May the better rationale and application of sukuk in line with Islamic principles (based on the Qur'an and Hadiths) prevail among the umma.

Allah knows best and Allah will not change any society unless they change themselves.

"And how does that stand in the philosophy of some that the highest and most forgiving behavior is the one most loved by ALLAH?"

Ofcourse forgiving people is loved by Allah and we should try out best to be forgiving people. However, it does not mean that we should not punish someone when they commit a major sin. Otherwise there would be moral decay in society. For example, if a person steals, should they be punished or should we forgive them and let them continue with their life? If a punishment is not meted out then other people would think it's okay and would perhaps do it themselves. So in certain situations a punishment is necessary.

"so explain to me how condemning and damning a segment of humanity works exactly?"
I am not saying let's find them in their homes and kill them. Although if you know of the account of the people of Prophet Lot (Peace be upon him), you would find that this society had decayed to an extent where homosexuality was rampant. What did God do? He destroyed the society. I am not saying let's do that at all. However, although God is Merciful and Compassionate, we should fear of God's wrath. Especially, if we think it's okay for homosexuality to be practiced openly.

do you imagine that an agreement on an issue constitutes some kind of corrupting western influence?
In my opinion, for the most part, yes. As you will notice from the author's opinion, she feels it's okay for the congregation of Muslims to be led by an open homosexual and she thinks it's okay for homosexuals to practice openly.

I have shared with you my opinions based on the knowledge which I have and as always Allah knows best.

Jihadist:
Since in some hadith the punishment of someone who is committing homosexuality is similar to an individual who is committing adultery, the requirement is to have four witnesses testify to seeing the detested act being committed. Ofcourse, as always Allah is ever-watchful of his servants and whether they escape the penalty in the world or not, the punishment in the hereafter is more severe. This is according to my knowledge, however, I am not a scholar of Islamic jurispudence (Fiqh). So I would suggest finding a scholar and getting more information from that person. And Allah knows best.

ASHFAQ- enlighten us then- as jihadist so aptly expressed- exactly how in the context of islamic respect for both privacy and the protection of reputations (and especially lives themselves) does one prove such a thing to get to the point of judgement from a human court?

And how does that stand in the philosophy of some that the highest and most forgiving behavior is the one most loved by ALLAH?

Consider this- non-muslims attack islam because tey sense in it an unforgiving and intolerant attitude towards its weakest members- women- gays-

the way we protect and treat these members of our society is a great indicator of the civility and compassion we have as a community-

i myself have witnessed how pervasively the inhumane and brutal interpertation that it is okay to beat your wife like an animal has filtered into every aspect of the cultural and traditional practices of many muslims- resulting in a justification of the sickest of abusive and co-dependent behaviors-

have you ever sat with a woman while she apologozed for her own bad behavior that made her deserving of being whacked in the kidneys?
and excused and justified her abusers treatment?

so explain to me how condemning and damning a segment of humanity works exactly?

from a holistic viewpoint- as ive struggled with this issue in a very very personal way-
(no- im not gay)

for people to rejoice that they see moderation and tolerance in those they had imagined were capable only of extreme and intolerant violent behavior- this is a plus-

What is mildly disturbing to me is that you are disturbed by the non-muslims reactions-

should our comfort zone be an apologetic defense when being attacked?

do you imagine that an agreement on an issue constitutes some kind of corrupting western influence?

im really curious as im a western woman who came to islam not through marriage but through the egalitarianism inherent in it-

are you telling me that is doesnt exist?

Brother im not trying to attack you- i really am interested in your opinion and wait for your response

respectfully and with peace-

Ashfaq

Extraordinary! Finally a Muslim inerrantist in these On Faith threads. A Salafist?

Tell me what we Muslims should do about the homosexuals then? God to punish them in the afterlife and Day of Judgement? Or we to punish them for their sins in this life?

How to prove that someone is gay? How to prove that anyone have gay sex? How to punish them? Please share your thoughts here.

Mrs. Taylor,
It seems that the non-Muslims are rejoicing in your analysis of homsexuality. This is quite disturbing since naturally they are predisposed to attacking the teachings of Islam. Islam teaches that homosexuality is a sin and those who commit homosexual acts will be punished for their sins. Mrs. Taylor seems to want to receive acceptance from the non-Muslim community. As a Muslim my intention is not to receive acceptance of the non-Muslims but to receive the acceptance of God Almighty (Allah). I suggest that you stop the promotion of incorrect teachings and I also suggest that you seek further knowledge on this topic.

see folks? who said muslims werent funny?

He he.

That should have been "all of a *sudden*, segregate prayer lines would not seem so comfortable."

And, John, all of a prayer lines segregated by gender would seem not quite so comfortable to some... *wink*

Now I'm thinking. What if the homosexuality rate of human beings were 41%? Homosexuality would be so commonplace that it would only come up at parties: Do you want to sit in the boy-girl-boy-girl section, or in the boy-boy-girl-girl section?

FYI:

Bazemore PH, Wilson WH, Bigelow DA, on homosexuality:

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3359.htm

"Ten percent of human beings happen to be homosexually oriented..."

I've threaded through a heap of internet sites on this question, and the current consensus seems to be that the rate of homosexuality among human beings is 4-6%. I feel even this number is high, but I can't prove it.

Here's a curious datum: the homosexuality rate of dolphins is said to be 41%. What does this mean? It means, homophobes, get a grip. It could be a lot worse. What would you do if your majority were a mere 59%?

Dear Ms Taylor

It is wonderful to read the thoughts of a Muslim woman who argues for an all embracing view of Islam, something that is so urgently needed in this day and age of intolerance and violation of human rights based on ignorance. Ten percent of human beings happen to be homosexually oriented and they can do nothing about it. After all attempts by the medical profession to "cure" them failed, homosexuality was removed as a disease from the psychiatry textbook in 1973. Science still has no answer to the origin of homosexuality, but that should not prevent us from treating them with the dignity, and granting them the same rights they deserve as children of God. Should any religion deny them the right to live full lives, experiencing as much physical expression of their love for a partner as heterosexuals do? As heterosexual believers is it not better for us to be found "guilty" of loving "too much" rather than too little when we are called to give an account of our lives to God? Thank you for expressing your support for the Muslim homosexuals who cannot help their sexual orientation, and love God and neighbour just as the rest of us do.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Its twisted logic and twisted interpretation. I can't disagree with you enough on all the points you have made in this article.
Their is a famous saying "little knowledge is dangerous" that is what is wrong with the so called "Progressive Muslims" which by the way is flawed from the beginning. Thats the reason why it never took hold and has gone way side.

Well-reasoned, beautifully conveyed, powerfully felt.

Salud!

I have come to look forward to your posts, and you never disappoint. Well said, Ma'am. Brightest Blessings!

This is beautiful. Great job, Pamela.

Rock on, Pamela. :)

Well done! Yes!

Always a pleasure to read you Ms Pamela Taylor.

Salaam and regards.

I am happy to consider ms taylor my sister-

she has made her case with power and elegance.

Ifaqeer- thanks for calling attention to the last 2 paragraphs- i think i glazed over them the first time-

Well-written, and well-argued. Especially the one-two punch of the penultimate paragraph and the last one.

Congratulations to you, Desmond Tutu, and Shakespeare!

At a time in England when Jews had been driven out of the country and not allowed to reenter for 300 years, Shakespeare wrote one of his most famous speeches for Shylock the Jew, in Merchant of Venice. If one replaces the word Jew with "homosexual," we would find the speech reads:

"I am a homosexual. Hath not a homosexual eyes? Hath not a homosexual hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subect to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Christian is? If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not laugh? And if you wrong us shall we not revenge?"

Just think if this speech were used with the words, Native Americans, blacks, gypsies, Arabs, Muslims... the list could go on and on. Is there a country or a religion that has not erred by trying to deny rights to a group that it did not believe was entitled to be treated as they wished to be treated.

Indeed, if we "turn the other cheek," and "love thy neighbor," how could we be comfortable denying a group of our citizens the rights that we want for ourselves and our children.