Catholics More Likely to Face Ethnic Bias Than Religious Discrimination

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Hi Victoria,
Sorry for the long absence.

FYI: the Minnesota cab licenses forbid the cab driver from refusing cab fares, except in special circumstance. It is not at the discretion of the cab driver to refuse fares. If he/she does he can lose his license.

The Minnesota City Ordinance governing cabs makes it an offense for the Cab OWNING license if the driver refuses fares. The Cab owner agrees under the licensing ordinance to make his/her cab a 'public transport vehicle' and cannot refuse fares.

The Minnesota Airport Commission also licenses cab drivers who pick up and drop customers at the airport - since the airport is private property there has to be an additional licensing requirement.

So it appears the Muslim cab drivers have breached THREE licensing agreements they voluntarily made.

I don't know where you got your info from but my info can be obtained from the Minnesota State Government - you only have to google - it is on public record.

Emily

Hi
just for fun

roleplayinggames.com

the hit and run haters- i should know better but i still bother

for emily-

uesday, September 13, 2006
Texas: Increasing readership for Muslim newspaper

Sarwat Husain, president of the San Antonio chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, began her newspaper six months after September 11. Al-Ittihaad, which means unity, publishes articles relating to Islam and the local Muslim community.

Al-Ittihaad covers local Muslim issues in Texas and prints several columns. The most popular one is the Q&A section, where Islamic scholar and imam Dr. Yusuf Z. Kavakci answers to readers’ doubts about the appropriate behavior for a Muslim living in America. The online version of the newspaper includes a prayer schedule and cultural articles.

The paper is distributed freely throughout Texas: in particular to universities, churches and mosques. Despite the increasing readership, Al-Ittihaad is not profitable, due to the fact that Sarwat Husain often refuses to run ads, which might be considered offensive to Islam.

Source: New America Media

emily you have a very absolutist worldview view-

muslims- bad surly anti-american with secret agendas to proselytize - o no- at the point of the sword convert everyone into forced submission- with anger and anarchy lurking in their dark hearts seething under the surface-

happy mexicans eager to become 'good americans'

you ARE aware that the largest group of converts in america to islam today is mexicans?

heres a solution- lets keep the inclusivity this country was founded on- have a guest worker program-

have you ever been to an INS office?

do you know how many field liaisons any given city has?

not many-
certainly not enough to even go after the people who are demanded to surrender themselves to INS every day- let alone go after out of status people-

do you know that muslims are required to sign an oath of loyalty when they come to america now?
IF they can get in-
lets see- 1 million iraqi refugees as of a month ago- theyre leaving in droves-

how many iraqi refugees has america absorbed in the past 5 years?

33 THIRTY THREE

have you ever had to sign an oath of loyalty emily?

do you remeber the l;ast time this happened in america?

do you not understand that there are way worse problems facing this country right ow and that most of what youre seeing is intended to distract you into a fearful and anxious state?

when youre in that state you dont really worry if your government administration is keeping its promises -

health care?
over burgeoning immigration (specifically mexican) problem

unemployment?
astronomical loans being taken out all over the world to fund tis insane war?

bush tok office and for the first time in the 20th century the country was in a 600 billion dollar surplus-

do you remember the headline that was knocked off the front page by 911?

i do-

it was the 600 billion dollar DEFICIT that we were n after 9 months of bush-

andenron-
and oversight of government spending

and bush cronies implicated (and later convicted ) in the enron scandal

stop worrying about muslims who just want to raise their children, have decent air to breathe and water to drink like anyone else-

actually only the very bottom of texas had any indigenous mexicans-

californian was a complete desert and nobody was living there-

im willing to bet 100% youve never even been in a mexican neighborhood in your life-

how do you know what they want?

yeah theyve enriched american life alright- by working the fields and picking the fruit- by cleaning hotel bathrooms-

what about gang violence?

you live in a dreamworld if you tell yourself theyre all merely tring to be the best americans they can be-

most mexicans have a real distrust and prejudice of white people-

you really live in a dreamworld so i understand now

Dear Victoria,

###
muslims are the most highly educated group of immigrants to hit these shores ever-

---
I'm not sure you can dismiss a group of people who only number 15 million yet won more Nobel prizes than everyone else.

###
would you go into a mexican neighborhood and turn off their music and insist they learn english?

---
No, I'm also not sure Mexican have articulated the desire to turn America Mexican. The situation with Mexicans is entirely different. For a start they haven't had members of their group crashing planes into tall buildings in the name of Mexican-ness.

I'm sure Mexican immigrants are very happy to become Americans. Now, I am not asking people to leave their cultures but merely to try their best to be good Americans. In my opinion they have enriched American life. In fact, they were here before us. Texas and California were in fact Mexican territory before the United States of America went into the West.

But you're right - it is a beautiful day - spring is in the air.

Emily

emily- despite your demand that i substitute nationalism for my religion-

im american and will worship as i want-

you can want everyone to be the way you would like- but youre american so you dont have the right to impose it on others-

i didnt choose america- america chose me-

muslims are the most highly educated group of immigrants to hit these shores ever-

would you go into a mexican neighborhood and turn off their music and insist they learn english?

if youre going to complain about immigrants-
singlng out one group while ignoring the up and coming largest minority in america (in 4 years 30% of the population will be mexican)

is peculiarly slanted and one might infer a certain prejudice in it

i gave you some positive input about contributions from muslims to answer your complaint that muslims dont do anything positive or public-

a reasonable response would be- o i wasnt aware of that, thats good

a discriminatory response would be to ignore the complaints been answered and dismiss it without thought

its a beautiful day in the neighborhood-

hi neighbor

emily- you are aware that a cab driver leases a cab arent you?

and that they are protected by laws that are posted on the backseat of the driver wherein they may refuse service to anyone at their discretion?

I didnt choose america - it chose me-

and i dont have to subsitute nationalism for my religion either-

as for the irish adapting to america-

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i dont know what kind of irish family you came from- but most of and my irish families were quite vocal union people and certainly didnt ask permission to build churches or breed like bunnies-

come on- you act like the irish slipped in politely and unnoticed!

your assertion is irish were accomodating to the people already here????

wow-

maybe the protestants were more reserved-

but thats unlike any irish people i know

and i know boatloads

Victoria,
I'm not sure it is good manners for guests or newcomers to expect adaptation from their hosts. This has never been the situation with every other immigrant group. When my great-great-grandfather and his family migrated to America during the potato famine my family adapted to America, it wasn't the other way around. We did what we could to survive and we didn't complain that the Americans who were here before us were biased towards us. We adapted to America. We became Americans and no longer Irish.

Though we were Protestant our religion was not at the forefront of our consciousness. We were not Protestant Irish - we were Americans, and we left our baggage behind in Ireland.

I'm sure it is the same with every other immigrant group, particularly the smaller ones.

As for your CAIR statements - how do you square with the statements I provided from CAIR officials about Islam being dominant in America?

If CAIR condemns terrorism why doesn't CAIR condemn Hamas and Hezbollah? Instead, CAIR siphoned its 9/11 charity money to Hamas. How can CAIR justify spending money raised for 9/11 victims on Hamas? Will you as a Muslim hold CAIR to account for that action?

Besides, I think we're really talking cross-purposes here: when I talk about Muslims condemning unequivocally Islamic terrorism I mean just that. I want CAIR to come out and condemn ALL Islamic terrorists no matter where they are. I want CAIR to support the outlawing of all Islamic terrorist groups. I want Muslims to join in the fight against terrorism - to volunteer as Arabic speakers to fight Islamic terrorism and to turn in their fellow Muslims who are / may be conducting terrorist activities in America and elsewhere.

What I see is Muslims making apologetics because they fear 'backlash' - saying one thing to non-Muslim Americans but are unwilling to condemn Hamas and Hezbollah, and worse giving money to "Islamic Charities" which are little more than money-raising fronts for terrorist organisations abroad.

I want Muslims all over America to tell CAIR to pull its head in and stop being such an aggressive pain in the butt - more constructive actions rather than just issue lawsuits and apologetics.

I want CAIR to come right out and admit that America is and will never be a Muslim country and they were wrong to advocate such.

I want Muslims to tell the Muslim cab drivers to either get with the American program or go back to Somalia. This is a non-Muslim country and you have to respect us non-Muslims enough to not impose your beliefs on us. {Yes - refusing to accept alcohol in cabs is imposing the Islamic belief on the non-Islamic general public.}

I want Muslims to tell the Muslim clerics to chill out and not sue passengers who alerted the airline staff of their suspicious behavior.

I want Muslims to tell other Muslims that America is a great country and if Muslims don't like it here they are free to return to their Islamic homelands. I have had enough of Muslims bad-mouthing America and Americans while enjoying life in America - I know an Iranian who is so rabidly anti-American one wonders why he ever came here. I also know a couple of Pakistanis who were born here but hate our non-Muslim lifestyle with a passion. At every opportunity they insist on telling me how bad and immoral Americans are. That does not make me feel positive about Muslims in America.

BTW: I don't buy that "Islam is the fastest growing religion" apologetic. Muslims are only growing in number because of the generosity of the non-Muslim Americans who have welcomed them into America. In short - you are mainly growing by immigration and not by conversion. The population numbers estimated by CAIR and other Muslim apologists are just way too unbelievable.

Why such pride in numbers? It is just an argumentum ad populum. All it does is to cower weak politicians into 'giving in to you'. I don't think the American public gives much consideration to the number of Muslims at all.

I also don't care whether Muslims are 'doing good' and contributing to society as you claim. That is a given. Everyone else is also doing good and contributing to society, and you don't see them making a big deal out of it. That is expected of everyone.

In short, I expect Muslims who choose America as their home to put America above and beyond all else - including their Muslim brethren overseas, including Palestine, and even including their religion. In short, I would like all Muslims to aspire to be Americans who only happen to be Muslims. Not Muslims who happen to live in America.

Emily

well- im already adapted to america-
instad of putting all of the responsibilty of adapting on the newcomers (i assume youre talking about musim immigrants? the most highly educated group ofimmigrants to hit america by the way)
id say the onus i actually on those already adapted to help the newcomers navigate the unfamiliar landscape-
but thats just basic good manners-

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ your statement
"Remember: it is Muslims who have to adapt to non-Muslim America, not the other way around."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

now ive just given a very humane and reasonable
counter-point to your point-

but its not really either-

we really BOTH have to adjust and adapt TO EACH OTHER

just like new immigrant group have been doing in america from its formation-

although you seem to have a passing familiarity with CAIR, i imagine you missed this one-

CAIR statements on the events of September 11

"We condemn in the strongest terms possible what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.

"All members of the Muslim community are asked to offer whatever help they can to the victims and their families. Muslim medical professionals should go to the scenes of the attacks to offer aid and comfort to the victims.

September 11 statement by the CAIR

"We at the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), along with the entire American Muslim community are deeply saddened by the massive loss of life resulting from the tragic events of September 11. American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all American in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."

CAIR full page add, Washington Post, September 16.

"American Muslims, who unequivocally condemned today terrorist attacks on our nation, call on you to alert fellow citizens to the fact that now is a time for all of us to stand together in the face of this heinous crime."

September 11 letter to President Bush, signed by the leaders of the American Muslim Alliance, the American Muslim Council, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, the Muslim American Society, the Islamic Society of North America, the Islamic Circle of North America, and the Muslim Alliance in North America. These groups represent most of the seven million Muslims in the United States.

We are no less American than we were on Sept. 10. I was born in the United States. I took my first steps on this soil. I have been a ball boy for the Chicago Bulls. I have been to four U2 concerts. I am a second-year law student specializing in international human rights. I and my 7 million Muslim brothers and sisters are contributing members of American society.

Two members of President Bush's Cabinet are of Arab descent. It was a Muslim who was the architect for the Sears Tower. Islam is the fastest growing religion in America and in the world. We are doctors, lawyers, engineers, mechanics, teachers, and store owners.

We are your neighbors.

Arsalan Tariq Iftikhar, Midwest Communications Director, Council on American-Islamic Relations, St. Louis, Mo.

WELL_ YOU CAN STATE IT ANY MORE STRONGLY THAN THAT, CAN YOU?

Muslims are busy everywhere doing good and caring for those who are in need-

heres another article not likely tobe reported in american mainstream


9-13

Oak Brook, IL- In the wake of recent natural and man-made calamities, there has surfaced the need for an intense and determined action to collectively address global humanitarian concerns. This callingmotivated local humanitarians to institute a first-of-its-kind forum, the World Congress of MuslimPhilanthropists (WCMP). The WCMP annual conference will give Muslim philanthropists theopportunity to share ideas and cultivate collaborations which will eventually lead to improving thelivelihood of the world’s underprivileged. The first assembly, under the theme of “Facing Challengesand Finding Solutions” will take place in Istanbul, Turkey from March 22nd to March 24th 2008.

WCMP puts strong emphasis on benevolence that is deeply rooted in the Muslim faith and heritage.We encourage Muslims to work together in reaching out to the needy around the world irrespective oftheir religious belief and race. This act of kindness can be lending a hand to a neighbor, volunteeringin respective communities, or offering skills and talents to a project.

“Our aim is to create a forum where Muslim philanthropists from diverse backgrounds can interact, andsubsequently, become a leading component of the international community of humanitarians,” said Dr.Tariq Cheema, the founder of WCMP. “Through this effort we intend to empower people who have thewill to make a difference by providing tools, networking opportunities and access to resources”, saidCheema expressing his vision about the WCMP.

World Congress of Muslim Philanthropists is an open invitation to all bona fide philanthropic organizations and individuals working around the world. It is an unyielding aspiration of WCMP to seethese organizations establish correlation with their local and international partners to develop a betterunderstanding of today’s challenges. Philanthropists from all faiths and cultures are encouraged toparticipate in the symposium. WCMP welcomes the financial as well as intellectual contribution from institutions, charities and the general public.

Why arent these common knowledge?

It would seem that we americans would want to know bout the good actions of muslim, wouldnt it?

Victoria,
I don't believe I fear Muslims. However, I do understand that Muslims are not helping themselves in the PR stakes by:

1. engaging in anti-American behavior like the cab drivers taking it on themselves to prohibit alcohol in defiance of American law. Now, most Americans enjoy a drink or two and they can personalize this issue by putting themselves in the shoes of those law-abiding Americans who happen to exercise their legal and moral right to carry alcohol. This sort of anti-American incidents do not show how Muslims/Islam are compatible with American society.

2. their peak bodies like CAIR making anti-American or insensitive remarks about wanting to make America into a Muslim country. I do recall a senior CAIR official saying something like, "Islam is not here in America to be equal to other religions but to be dominant." Such remarks by YOUR supposed spokespeople/leaders are hardly engendering friendship and understanding between Muslims and the majority non-Muslims. Some people might just dismiss those remarks as either insane rantings, exposed bigotry, or over-enthusiasm to please Allah. But many will take those remarks as signs that Muslims are incompatible with American values.

3. accusing Americans of bias and intolerance against Muslims when we are in reality bending over backwards trying to accomodate Muslims.

4. not doing sufficient to speak out unambiguously and unequivocally against all terrorism and terrorist organisations, even if they happen to be Muslim. I speak here of organisations like Hezbollah. While Muslims turn a blind eye to Islamic terrorism many non-Muslim Americans will tar you with the same brush. This is unfortunate but it is a reality. We are waiting with bated breath for American Muslims to STAND BESIDE us in fighting terrorism. So far we have been disappointed.

This also goes against Muslim acts like rioting over cartoons and the Pope's speech.

5. Muslim clerics suing passengers expressing their personal fears to authorities on airplanes - which is their right to do so.

I'm only asking Muslims to show some empathy for the perspective of the non-Muslim Americans. I'm sure that most Muslims are good law-abiding people. However, by not speaking out against your errant leaders and making over-the-top accusations of bias against ordinary Americans how do you expect mutual understanding and friendship?

For a start, I am yet to see Muslims condemn those Muslim acts I mentioned earlier. Muslims are entirely silent when it comes to the Ummah. Where are the Muslims who will speak out against CAIR to tell them to make less provocative insensitive remarks and work towards understanding with non-Muslim Americans, not suing every critic left right and center?

Remember: it is Muslims who have to adapt to non-Muslim America, not the other way around.

I do feel you are getting frustrated with the tone of the dialogue. However, I believe this discussion is a microcosm of what the general America feeling MAY be like, not having the presumption to speak on behalf of my fellow Americans. But you must admit there is much to do on both sides to work towards mutual understanding and happy coexistence.

Emily

EMILY- if you inserted christians or jews or hindus or african americans where muslims are in your essay- i would be just as distressed-

as stated before- you cant try and justify your fears and biases by saying those biased against are deserving-

that is the anathema of reason and tolerance

to assert that someone deserves to be biased against only for how they LOOK! is the exact definition of prejudice and wrong judgement of the most superficial and unjustifiable nature

mea culpa emily mea culpa

EMILY- again you either misunderstand or deliberately misprepresent what i said-

i am not frustrated, i simply said i am DISHEARTENED by the NEGATIVE VIEWS ON THIS BOARD!

alcohol is an american value?

you state-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Just imagine what the average non-Muslim air traveller is going to feel when he or she spots a fellow passenger that looks like a Middle-Eastern or a Muslim? He or she will be too scared to get on that plane.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

you really think this is a valid point?
because someone LOOKS middle eastern?

an the imam who is "suspicious" because he LOOKS muslim?

emily- youre so entrenched in islamophobic meida indoctrination- you seem to really believe those are justifications for being afraid!

go look at the new question- and learn a bit about media representation of islam in america and understand how it is possible that youve been only seeing what the media wants you to see-

you know we are currently killing muslims across the world, right?
you know that the us government has to borrow money from other countries to fund that killing, right?

your fear is not validated

im considering posting my own experiences on the eboo patel thread

go to a mosque or a local interfaith dinner or meeting- theyre all over the place-

find an actual living breathing muslim to talk to and ask your concerns about-

i think you will be amazed at what islam and muslims are in reality

and please please turn off fox news

Dear Victoria,
I'm merely putting my point of view. If you find my view xenophobic I don't know what to say. I do know that most Muslims are law-abiding citizens and am not trying to tar every Muslim with the actions of a few who shouted "Allahu Akbar" while flyin planes into skyscrapers.

What I'm saying is that Muslims do not help themselves in America by ignoring the non-Muslim America point of view. I'm not making this remark directly at you but to your Muslim brethren whom I feel clearly do not understand the American psychology.

You're not the only one frustrated with the negativity surrouding the issue of Islam's relationship with America. My POV of Muslims and Islam is almost all negative. This is because everything that comes up about Muslims and Islam are negative in the American public consciousness.

Everytime Islam and/or Muslim is mentioned it is negative. Everytime someone from CAIR says something it pisses some non-Muslim people off - you don't say you want the White House to be islamic and not piss off millions of Christian Americans. You don't sue your critics and not show Muslims are intolerant of criticism (which by the way is the American way of utilizing our freedom of speech). Everytime a Muslim cab driver makes the news by refusing to take passengers who carry alcohol (which is a basic American right) and not show how Muslims are incompatible with Western secular (i.e. American) values.

Remember: it is not us non-Muslim Americans who have to adapt to immigrant Muslims. It is the immigrant Muslims who have to adapt to us.

If Muslims want to be cab-drivers they have to abide by their cab licenses - which forbids them from refusing passengers except in strict situations (which does not include alcohol-carrying passengers). It's these things like this that reinforces in the minds of non-Muslim Americans (which by the way represents the bulk of the people of America) such negativity about Muslims and Islam.

It is also the Muslim imams who act suspiciously on planes and then want to sue passengers who alerted authorities for fear of their lives. Do Muslims even realize that such actions are counter-productive to the Muslim interest? Sure a few Muslims might win a few headlines and maybe a courtcase or two but that comes at the expense of the public standing of Muslims. Just imagine what the average non-Muslim air traveller is going to feel when he or she spots a fellow passenger that looks like a Middle-Eastern or a Muslim? He or she will be too scared to get on that plane.

That is why I believe Muslims are their own worst enemies in America. You are not winning the PR battle - in fact, you're doing fine losing it all by yourself.

In terms of hate and violence one only have to see the evening news to see that. Muslims seem to be a rather volatile over-sensitive bunch - rioting over the most inconsequential things. Draw a few cartoons and Muslims riot and kill the world over. The Pope says something and there are death threats. If that is not hate and violence I wonder what is? As an example of the way Americans feel about sacrilege - when an American photographer Andre Serrano depicted Christ with urine nobody threatened him. Sure it was in bad taste and there was outrage and accusations of blasphemy but Americans are mature enough to not care so much about such sacrilege to riot and kill.

It also doesn't help when Muslim write over-the-top articles slamming Americans about how racist and biased we are towards the 'poor misunderstood downtrodden innocent wouldn't-hurt-a-fly' Muslims. Can you imagine what Mr Average Joe Blow reading his newspaper over breakfast is going to feel when he reads how Americans are just so mean to the Muslims?

Can you imagine what Mr Joe Blow is feeling when you equate 9/11 (where 3,000 innocent Americans died) with a Quran being flushed down the toilet at Gitmo?

I think I have said enough. If I say any more someone might think I have something against Muslims. I don't. I just wish there were less negativity in the news about Muslims and Islam. Much of this negativity comes from the actions of the Muslims themselves.

Also, a little balance and perspective might come in handy. I do believe that Muslims in American are not having it so bad. After all, there is no shortage of desire among the Muslims of the world to emigrate to the Great Satan so they can be downtrodden and mistreated by the oh-so-biased and hateful non-Muslim Americans.

Best wishes,
Emily

your statements are innately xenophobic in regards to muslims-
do not try to justify discrimination by blaming the discriminated against-

it is coming from inside you

that is where you need to look to eradicate it from your own perspective

i find that i get the response to my being that i give
and i give respect and concern to those around me

mea culpa

there has never been a person who could justify their biases through pointing out how deserving the biased against are

while you are trying to raise some emotional issue by illustrating that terrorist were quoting the quran and shouting ALLAHU AKBAR-

how could i or you have felt anything?
there are no records such an occurence took place-
there is no black box recording-

you never heard anyone shout that, nor did i!

how can i have feelings about it when i didnt see it or hear it and neither did you?

islam codified womens rights to property- you are very misinformed as to the social position of women in arabia prior to the advent of islm- very misinformed-

so do some research on the rights of women in arabia pre-islam, you will be disavowed of your current notion completely-

while you keep putting hate and violence in the same sentence as islam- it serves no real purpose-
these are your opinions-

learn about islam-
go to a mosque if you like-

knowledge and education will trump fear and anxiety- you will discover your neighbors are good people with similar values and aspirations-

knowing the other is a valuable way to allay your anxieties

and turn off fox news

i will reiterate-
i am an american and am familiar with american mentlality- so i am they

as for your statement that muslims make no attempt at dialogue with non-muslim
1) what do you think im doing?
2)when is the last time youve gone to the many interfaith dinners most mosques sponsor?

3) what hate or violence have you personally experienced that makes you so afraid?

i am disheartenede by the negativity expressed in this forum- not by my neighbors who love and respect me

Dear Victoria,
I'm sorry you are thinking this discussion personally as I was trying to make the general case of the lack of balance and perspective in the discourse about Muslims in America. If I have made any remarks to you personally then I apologize. That was not my intention.

Regarding women's right to property it is true that Islam provided that right to Muslim women long ago. However, it is erroneous to suggest that this right did not exist before: if you look at the case of your prophet's first wife you'd see she was a property owner, thus proving that Arabian women already had that right. In case you didn't know matrilineal inheritance and female property rights were practised in the Middle East long before Islam. In ancient Egypt, for example, women not only owned property but inheritance was throught the female line.

I regard the cases of alleged bias against Muslims a biased. As a person of Irish descent I also note from my family history that we were also 'discriminated' against when we came to America. In fact, it was far worse for us in those days. Hence, I feel any 'bias' against Muslims is not strictly due to their religion. Of course the profound negativity surrounding Islam and Muslims is having an impact. I'm not denying that. However, I should also point out that none of the Irish, Italian, Chinese, Jamaican, Huguenot, Dutch, Korean, Vietnamese immigrants ever did anything quite like 9/11 - even when they were at war with the US (i.e. the Japanese and the Koreans).

As for me downplaying your examples as minor. I think they are 'minor' given the context. If you bring up Captain Yee, you forgot Hasan Akbar, the American Muslim soldier who threw grenades into his 'supposed' comrades' tents, wounding 14 and killing 2 officers. Now, given that happened, one can understand the over-reaction and wariness of the US military concerning Muslim servicemen. That is what I mean by 'balance' and 'perspective'. Don't just see from your point of view - see it from ours as well.

The fact that there are still hundreds if not thousands of Muslim servicemen in the US military tells us alot about the supposed 'bias'. In some other country you might see wholesale purges, but not in America.

As for being compared to Nazis and Communists - I should note that neither of them managed to kill 3,000 innocent civilian Americans in one day. So you are entitled to your point of view regarding the unfairness of the comparison.

I do note that Islam has been at war with non-Muslims since inception. America has been at war without realizing it. There really is no way out of this mess. How do we stop the conflict between America and the Muslims who hate us and want to destroy us? I don't know. And I gather you don't either.

Since you say you became Muslim before 9/11 - what did the incident mean to you? When Muslim terrorists quoting the Quran fly planes into skyscrapers shouting "Allahu Akba" what reaction did it elicit in you? I'm sure you are going to say the terrorists misinterpreted Islam and the Quran. However, since 9/11 I have read the Quran and the life story of Muhammad and I do not think so. For a religion of peace there sure is a lot of hate and violence against non-believers.

Now, you are entitled to your belief, but my point remains that Muslims have little or no balance in their discourse with non-Muslim Americans. They don't understand the American psyche (sorry if you disagree). Muslims in general need to soften their message. Organizations like CAIR behaving so aggressively and making unthinking and insensitive remarks like wanting to turn America into a Muslim country is not only a big turn-off but is likely to turn people against you. In short, I think Muslims are their own worst enemies. Their PR consists of threats and hyperbole, it seems to me. After all the hate and violence I see from Muslims I just don't buy the "religion of peace" polemic. You can say it once and people give you the benefit of the doubt. Keep on saying it while bombs go off and you lose credibility.

So I'm sorry you feel disheartened by all the negativity. This is merely a microcosm of the true feeling of Americans towards Muslims and Islam in general. I'm sure before 9/11 the general view was positive, at worst neutral. But after 9/11 and continued 'bad press', not helped by the behavior of the Muslims themselves I'm afraid you will continue to face a difficult time in America, perspective-wise.

Thanks,
Emily

it is really dishearteneing to come onto these boards and see people feel comfortable elaborating on why their own biases and prejudices are justified-

personally my family members have fought with distinction in every war american has engaged in- wrongly or rightly- i take no particular pride in that- but i am as american as any other poster here who claims the same-

what i dont do is question someones basic national affiliation- or question their right to have their opinion-

having lived on both sides of this question- as a catholic american and a muslim american- i can certainly see many distinctions in the attitudes of people-

i became a muslim before 911 and no one had any real idea what it was or is-

it is still the same case today-

when my grandmother was coming up in america she didnt have the right to own property or vote-

women in islam have had this right for 1470 some years-

when my african american neighbor was coming up he didnt have the right to vote-

people of every hue have had equal rights in islam for 1470 some years-
there are many sayings of our Prophet(pbuh)
that prohibit such discrimination based on race-

14 centuries before equal rights for all became "an american ideal"

(when were african americans given the vote?
40 years ago?)

so as emily stated-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" Even our conflicts of the past, against Nazism and Communism, had a clearly defined end-games. You destroy the Nazi state or outcompete the Communists politically, militarily, economically and socially you win."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

who could help but be disturbed by being likened to godless communisim or fascist nazism?

such false comparisons are in themsleves abhorrently deceiving and misleading-

yet people feel no qualms about making them.

and so am i supposed to believe that the 'american way' comprises of the mentality to destroy what is different from the mainstream christian philosophy?

last i checked there were no calls for destruction of the 'other' in Jesus(ata) own words-

last i checked, freedom of religion was one of the guarantees of the constitution

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

so as far as being american- id say im exercising my american rights in a very visible and concrete fashion-

there is nothing new (or american) about citizens trying to silence others for not holding their particular viewpoints

as i always say- theres more than enough (here) to go around-
its not a competition-
we dont need to destroy others to be winners
we already are

no emily- that is not at all the meaning of kafir-

when have you ever been proselytized to by a muslim, ever?

sorry emily- but im an american.

while you diminish my own experiences as "minor" having absolutely no information to make such a judgement on its impact-

you are simply wrong in how you misunderstand and misprepresent how muslims think.

who is our?

did i suddenly stop being american?

your entire post is a 'them versus us' statement

what lawsuits are you talking about?

you said-
'~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The fact that you have blown up minor incidents as if there were 'apartheid' in America is shocking in my view, and quite disturbing too. I also live in America and cannot see this as true. Perhaps there is some over-sensitivity on your part and under-sensitivity on ours, but I can't believe things as a bad as that."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i havent even STATED the incidents yet- and youve already dismissed them as minor or over sensitve??

wouldnt it make more sense for tyou to actually know what im talking about before you have an opinion when you dont even know what your opinion is referring to?

how can you state an opinion about something you have no knowledge of?

emily- if i inserted chrisitan in every instant you put muslim-
with so much conjecture of a negative and inaginary nature-

you would be livid at the prejudice expressed-

it is actually proving the point that racism against muslims is acceptable that you feel you can write such a long insulting piece- and actually feel you are justified!

stay in your comfortable world emily- where you dont "see" things so they must not exist-
but do me a favor and turn off fox news and watch PBS and listen to NPR sometimes-

you will see a whole lot of americans just as american as you with a widely different perspective

you write "see things form 'our' point of view

our point of view indeed

and who am I?

Dear Victoria,
When I wrote kafir I should have written non-Muslim, if that is your interpretation of the word 'kafir'.

In furtherance of this discussion, I can understand the 'negative' opinions Americans have of Muslims since everything we see and read, almost without exception, are negative. Muslims have 'demonized' themselves. When Muslims shouted "Allah hu Akbar' during 9/11 it brought home to Americans an enemy they never even knew existed; an enemy so implacable that it has been in conflict, one way or another, with the West for 14 centuries.

I don't see a way out of this conflict, and I'm sure many Americans also share this view. Even our conflicts of the past, against Nazism and Communism, had a clearly defined end-games. You destroy the Nazi state or outcompete the Communists politically, militarily, economically and socially you win.

With Islam I do not see how the end-game will unfold - thus am resigned that conflict between our civilizations will continue in one form or another, with varying degrees of intensity, for as long as we exist.

The problem Muslims have is that Muslims view America as a stumbling block to their own world domination. Muslims want to convert the world to Islam. Now, that is surely going to piss a lot of people off. Muslims don't know how to proselytize peacefully. From what I see - it is always with the implied or overt threat of violence. When Americans see journalists kidnapped in Iraq being forced to convert to Islam or suffer beheading it brings home to Americans that Islam is not a true and peaceful religion. We just don't like someone else trying to shove their beliefs down our throat at the point of a sword. If you live in America you would know this - the typical American streak of stubborn independence.

Then we see Muslim clerics on TV unwilling to denounce Hezbollah or condemn terrorism, or make mealy-mouthed apologetics for terrorism, it does not make your religion look good in our eyes. Who is to blame for bringing home this negative view of Islam to Americans? Not us Americans.

I know there has been 'biased' and 'over-reaction' against Muslims in America. We Americans are not perfect nor are we saints. But I reject any notion that we have an endemic or institutionalized bias against Muslims. In fact, I go the other way - that we have bent over backwards to accomodate Muslims.

The fact that we have not gone to war with Saudi Arabia even though most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis should tell you something about the America psyche. Though imperfect, we have at least some balance in our understanding to differentiate between individuals who perpetrate terrorism in the name of Islam and the Saudi state itself which has already outlawed al-Qaeda. How can we hold Saudi Arabia responsible for al-Qaeda's actions when it considers al-Qaeda its own enemies? Did you know that one of al-Qaeda's aims is to overthrow the Saudi government? Thus, I reject your notion that we should have attacked Saudi Arabia for al-Qaeda's actions - that would be hitting the wrong target entirely.

As for Captain Yee - that was an unfortunate case and I'm sure he will get due compensation for his troubles. Our military is not perfect but I say - better safe than sorry. You can point to a Muslim soldier being treated unfairly but you don't see the fraticidal Muslim soldier who threw grenades into his comrades tent while they were sleeping. The fact that we do even have Muslim soldiers in our military should tell you about the American tolerance, imperfect as it may be.

The point is that you and other American Muslims have beaten-up 'minor' cases of bias against Muslims and equated them to more heinous crimes against the United States of America. I am only asking for balance in our views and discussions.

You know, organisations like CAIR are doing American Muslims great disservice, in my view because they cannot stop defending the Ummah no matter how patently wrong and horrendous it is. Not only that, they go on the 'offensive' in America by issuing law-suits and the like. Now, it is everyone's right to issue law-suits, but I must say that CAIR's actions have merely pointed out to Americans why Islam is incompatible with Western values.

You do not say things like you want to convert America to Islam, and insha allah some day Islam will be in the White House and not piss a lot of people off. Then you wonder why Americans have negative views about Muslims.

As for Muslims living in America suffering bias -please allow the law to take effect. If crimes have been committed against Muslims then let the police do their work. If things are really so bad as you make out then perhaps you American Muslims should tell your Muslim colleagues in Islamic countries to avoid America at all cost. So far, I don't see this happening.

The fact that you have blown up minor incidents as if there were 'apartheid' in America is shocking in my view, and quite disturbing too. I also live in America and cannot see this as true. Perhaps there is some over-sensitivity on your part and under-sensitivity on ours, but I can't believe things as a bad as that. If they were, the millions of Muslims queuing up to enter America can stop queuing up at America's doorsteps and start joining the queue to enter Saudi Arabia or Pakistan instead. Somehow, I don't see this happening.

BTW: all immigrant groups face some 'difficulties' when they come. The Germans faced this. The Polish faced this. The Jews, the Italians, the Chinese, the Vietnamese, the Greeks all faced cultural clash issues. Muslims are no different but we don't see the other migrant groups complaining as loudly as the Muslims.

Please, see things from our point of view. If Muslims want to live in the Great Satan, then Muslims should be aware that Americans are not Muslims - we have our own values and way of thinking. Minor incidents blown out of all proportion do not engender friendship and understanding - it only creates a poisonous 'them vs us' mentality.

Emily

i agree completely emily- there is no balance in the coverage of muslims- it is one of the reasons that all you see is negativity-

actually i have never met a kafir in america-
another media misrepresentation-
kafirs are people who have knowlingly rejected islm or tried to conceal the true message of it and mislead people-

there are very few (unless theyre muslims) who have enough knowledge to reject it- (one has to be educated and instructed in it to be considered a kafir) it is tranlsated as disbelievers but this is incorrect-

as i have personally been jailed and had my lisence taken illegally for 3 years (and it cost 4000 dollars to get it back - plus my perfect driving record of 25 years is now tarnished- never even a parking ticket)

and spit on, fired and a variety of unconstitutional actions against me only for my reliion- i think that it is proper forsomeone to speak about what is happening-

there is an intersting new book by paul barret called muslims in america (i think or american muslims) and in it he takes a poll of american attitudes towards muslims-

age 50 and over have the highest bias against muslims-
that number cuts completely in half when the polled PERSONALLY KNOW ONE MUSLIM!

i understand how you feel- if i werent a muslim myself- and had only the media to go by- i would be afraid of muslims also-

but we are not given a voice for our moderation- we are not given coverage of any kind to show the respect all muslims must have for christians and jews-
muslim history and actions are twisted to present a false impression of muslims and this isnt just an apologist statement but many studies have been done to prove how muslims are consisitently misrepresented and under represented in the media-

that is why i come on these boards-

i will never attack anyones belief systems because that is simply negative-

but i do give redirection when i see some things so sadly and wildly misunderstood-

when i go to look up islamic passages i ususally have to go to the 2nd or 3rd page before i reach a website that is actually posted by real muslims-

many people have i believe transferred their hatred and fear of communism onto islam-

simply put-

without a hatred of islam- we wouldnt be ble to go to war in iraq would we?

i remember when the oklahoma federal building was bombed- i wsnt even muslim then- and i was with friends and commentd- theyll say its arab-
and darned if they didint and kept saying it even after they caught timothy mcveigh-

if people hear something repeated enough- even if its patently untrue- they believe it-

why arent we at war with saudi arabia?
17 of the 19 911 operatives were saudi!

Brandon Mayfield- the convert to islam was wrongly imprisoned and charged for the madrid bombing when they knew he couldnt have done it from the beginning-

Capt James Yee- a west point graduate serving as a chaplain in the army was charged with espionage- all cahrges dropped after a year-
is crime was converting to islam after his exposure to prisoners (another unconstitutional collateral incident of islamophobia in america) in guantanomo bay-

a tuscon newspaper had a man write that amricans should kill every muslim for every soldier killed in iraq- the supreme court ruled he has a right to say this -(public exhortation to kill people of a religious group is constitutional- unless theyre christian or jewish i guess)

so these arent just 'flushing qurans down the toilet- but are long lasting disruptions of peoples lives and defamation of them- peope who are good citizens and americans-

so i think we should hear about them in this forum- we certanly wont in the media

also ive tried over 2 dys to post the notes and sources for the column here-

they are being held for approval by blog owner

about half of the posts i make here are held and then disappear

maybe the 5th attempt will be a charm
peace

Victoria,
I don't have feelings for Muslims as I don't care about or for them at all. I just wish they weren't in my consciousness, but they have made themselves so.

I don't want to open a newspaper and read about Muslims nor do I want to see the news on TV and see news items about Muslims. You can all disappear from public consciousness for all I care - just like I don't hear or see anything about Buddhists or Hindus in my daily awareness.

This is not a bigotted response, just in case some people might want to make it so. It's just that all that NEGATIVITY just turns me off. Everything I hear or read about Muslims impacts me negatively. Some positive contributions from Muslims would be helpful for a change. Harping on about how Americans are so awful to Muslims is not exactly positive, don't you agree?

I really don't put much store in the fact that people make opinions, even in major newspapers. They are only opinions. The only opinions that are crucial to me are those of the President, Congress, Senate and my family and friends. Of course my opinion is of paramount importance. What I'm asking is some perspective if people are to make opinions. Hyperbole is a big turnoff. I think I can spot a polemic a mile away. They don't make good reading.

Thus, all I'm asking is for some balance and perspective in discussion - from all sides.

I think America is a great place to live - that is why it is the NUMBER ONE immigration country. More people want a green card than are available. Few people want to immigrate to Muslim countries. So my point is: if America is so bad to Muslims, why do Muslims hanker to come here to live among the bad kafirs? If we're such anti-Islamic ogres, why do Muslims want to live among us? Is it because we have the freedom, the wealth and the opportunities that Muslims lack in your Muslim countries?

If Muslims do come to live in America, then be of the understanding that we are a non-Muslim country: a secular country with a Christian tradition. If Muslims seek to make us a Muslim country they are likely to make a lot of their American hosts unhappy - so don't do it. America is not and will never be a Muslim country - understand that, just like the Budddhists and the Hindus understand this. And we can all get along fine.

In my humble opinion, activist organisations like CAIR are doing Muslims great disservice. Making noise about how bad Americans are is not likely to engender friendship with Americans - it is likely to put us off. Perhaps Muslims should reconsider how you act in OUR society. Less aggressive and grating behavior would be good.

To sum; I would like to see less complaints from Muslims about how America and Americans are so unfair and discriminatory to them. There is a win-win solution easily at hand - it's called an airline ticket.

As for the Quran down the toilet complaint - to my mind that's an over-reaction. I know Muslims view that as something sacrilegious - but to me it is mere insensitivity - on a par with a slight or an insulting remark - nothing to get overly upset over. This is a disagreement, sure, but there is no reason in my mind to favor your opinion over mind.

Thus, I want to make it clear to the Muslim readers to take our point of view into consideration - don't just see things from your POV. If there is a difference of opinion - yours is not automatically right or more important than ours.

Hence, for Muslims to equate 9/11 where 3,000 American citizens died in an unprovoked terrorist attack to a Quran being flushed down the toilet is INSENSITIVE to American values.

Cheers,
Emily

as a matter of fact emily-

these are all newspaper articles from respected newspapers , even washington post

There are 22 sources for this article
1 of 22 is cair and that is a poll taken

i am really sorry you have these feelings for muslims

i pray our children will have a greater understanding of each others religiou differences and similarities

It doesn't do much for credibility when authors go over the top, especially so early on in their opinion articles. It shows a distinct lack of perspective. Quoting a proven apologist source like CAIR is also hardly doing the author a favor in the credibility stakes. If Muslims find discrimination and harrassment so odious in the USA why do they do it to others (in orders of magnitude greater) in their home countries? Why do they want to live in the USA - I believe there is no shortage of demand for immigration from Muslim countries. One would have thought the Muslims would shy away from the USA given that we're the Great Satan. But no - Muslims from all over the Islamic world clamor to emigrate to the US of A, CAIR's screeching notwithstanding. One should think CAIR would be better served by warning Muslims from emigrating to the USA given that we are such anti-Islamic ogres.

im sorry that is all you got out of that.

you are entitled to your opinion.

"The U.S. Congress has yet to name an independent investigative commission similar to the one conducted by the Sept. 11 commission to examine how the Qur’an-abuse occurred in prisons across Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan and Iraq, and to develop policies to prevent such offensive incidences."

How on earth can anyone equate 3,000 innocent people being killed on 9/11 with a Quran being flushed down the toilet?

The reason there was a congressional investigation on 9/11 was that more people were killed in this unprovoked act of war against the United States of America than were killed by the Imperial Japanese Navy on Dec 7, 1941 at Pearl Harbor. It was an ACT OF WAR against us.

I don't think flushing Qurans down toilets even comes close.

Come on, people - some perspective please.

rats- sorry folks for the double post

September 11, 2005

Muslims in America - Four Years After 9/11

by Habib Siddiqui

"The U.S. Congress has yet to name an independent investigative commission similar to the one conducted by the Sept. 11 commission to examine how the Qur’an-abuse occurred in prisons across Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan and Iraq, and to develop policies to prevent such offensive incidences."

Four years ago America’s sense of invulnerability on its own soil was shattered when two hijacked planes crashed separately into the twin towers of the WTC causing each to collapse. Since that momentous event, 9/11 has become an important anniversary. Not this year though. It was totally overshadowed by the Katrina disaster.

The anniversary also came at a time when President Bush’s approval rating was at an all time low with everything from the war in Iraq to oil price seemingly going in the wrong direction.

My friends and family members, living outside the United States, often ask me about how the aftermath has been for Muslims living in America. Answering the question is not as simple because one’s personal experiences would vary depending on the location one lives in, the job one does, the interaction one maintains both within and outside the Muslim community, etc. While the full dimension of backlash against Muslim Americans may never be known, from the reports I have been able to read and hear, there is no doubt that the last four years have been anything but pleasant for most Muslim Americans. This is because of the alleged involvement of some young Muslims hijackers with the attack on America on that fateful day. As for me, I hardly now perform congregational prayers in Islamic centers and mosques. I also don’t deliver as many lectures on Islam and Muslim issues that I used to do. I know of many Muslims who don’t frequent Islamic centers as often as they used to.

In July 2002, the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) polled 945 Muslims to find how 9/11 has affected them. Forty-eight percent of the respondents said that their lives had changed for the worse since 9/11 while 57% reported experiencing an act of bias or discrimination, ranging from disparaging remarks to a hate crime. [1]

Many new Muslim immigrants have clustered in certain jobs, notably as small business owners, running gas stations, convenience stores, motels, and as cab drivers. This may account for the prevalence of backlash victims among persons with these occupations. Two of the three 9/11-related murders for which charges have been brought were of convenience store workers. The third murdered victim was a gas station owner. The taxi dispatch services in many major cities reported that after 9/11 they had received threatening calls saying that their Muslim and Arab taxi workers would be killed. [2]

According to a 2002 Human Rights Watch (HRW) report “The September 11 Backlash” [3] (against Muslims and Arabs): “Mosques and places of worship perceived to be mosques appeared to be among the most likely places of September 11-related backlash violence. SAALT’s (South Asian American Leaders of Tomorrow) survey of bias incidents reported in major news media found 104 bias incidents against places of worship reported during the first week after September 11. [4] … Although September 11 backlash violence against individual Arabs and Muslims decreased markedly by November 2001, attacks continued against mosques or houses of worship perceived to be Arab or Muslim. On November 19, 2001, four teenagers burned down the Gobind Sadan, a multi-faith worship center in Oswego, New York, because they believed the worshippers were supporters of Osama Bin Laden. On March 25, 2002, a man who stated to police that he hated Muslims crashed his pickup truck into a mosque in Tallahassee, Florida thirty minutes after evening prayers.[5] On June 11, 2002, in Milipitas, California, vandals broke into a mosque under construction, scrawled derogatory remarks such as, "F- Arabs" and damaged the interior of a construction trailer near the mosque.[6] On August 24, 2002, federal authorities announced they had discovered a plan by a doctor in Tampa Bay to bomb and destroy approximately 50 mosques and Islamic cultural centers in south Florida. The doctor's home contained rocket launchers, sniper rifles and twenty live bombs.” [7]

As to job-related discrimination, the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) received 488 complaints as of May 2002. Of these, 301 involved persons who were fired from their jobs. A poll of Arab Americans conducted in May 2002 found that 20% had personally experienced job discrimination. [8]

In the pre-9/11 days, e.g., in 2000, the FBI received reports of 28 hate crimes (offenses motivated by race, religion, color, gender, etc.) against Muslims and Arabs in the U.S. In 2001, that number jumped to 481, most of these within weeks after 9/11. (The Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee, however, reported a higher figure; for instance, over 600 9/11-related hate crimes, committed against Arab Americans.)[9] What is important here is to realize that a U.S. Justice Department study found that a whopping 75% of hate crimes go unreported.[10] That means actual hate crimes could be four times the reported numbers.

Hate crimes against Muslim Americans increased by 121% to 1019 incidents in 2003, according to a report released on May 3, 2004 by Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR). The report also showed that overall anti-Muslim incidents in the United States increased by almost 70% in 2003.[11]

In the last two years, while the sporadic violence against anyone resembling a Muslim or an Arab has subsided, the level of aggressive disrespect and intolerance of Islam, mistrust of and discrimination against Muslims at workplaces is showing no sign of receding. The root cause may lie elsewhere - in the spiteful and bigoted sermons emanating from the churches, synagogues, temples, radio talk show programs, TV shows (especially Fox and the evangelical ones), and public libraries.

Quoting CAIR, the Human Rights Watch reports that the number of violent acts, discriminatory incidents and cases of harassment against Muslims rose 49% between 2003 and 2004 to 1522. [12]

The other more worrisome matter is: hate crimes against Muslims and Arabs remain disproportionately high compared to their proportion. For example, in Texas Arabs make up only about 0.3% of population, but they are victims in 4% of all hate crimes. About 0.5% percent of Texans are Muslims, but they are victims in 2.8% of the reported hate crimes. [13]

Some notable victims of witch-hunting include Jose Padilla and Capt. Yee.

Jose Padilla, a convert to Islam, was declared an “enemy combatant” (indeed the only American declared as such) by Presidential order and ordered locked away in a military brig in South Carolina — where he has languished since May 2002 in a windowless, 5-by-7-foot cell that is always brightly lit — without an indictment, a trial or access to a lawyer. When a U.S. District Court ruled in early September of this year in favor of President Bush in the case of Jose Padilla — it struck a major blow at the Constitution, upholding actions by the administration that Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens has said have “created a unique and unprecedented threat to the freedom of every American citizen.” [14]

In September of 2003, Capt. James J. Yee, a 1990 graduate of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, N.Y., another convert to Islam, who served as an Army Islamic chaplain and counseled prisoners at the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, naval base, was charged with espionage, aiding the enemy and spying. A year later, all charges against him were dropped. [15]

Few other Muslim members of the Armed forces were similarly harassed on cooked up charges of passing information to terrorists, only to be dropped later. [16]

Most Muslim places of worship are now monitored by the FBI and their informants to unearth Muslim radicalism. However, radical and hate sermons emanating from satellite channels and talk Radio shows, run by fundamentalist and evangelical Christians, are considered quite kosher and are routinely overlooked.

As to the backlash against Muslims in 2005, I provide below some random cases.

The Los Angeles Times in its June 4, 2005 issue reported that a suspicious fire gutted a 1500 square foot mosque in San Barnardino, California. The June 17, 2005 issue of the Washington Post reported that someone left a bag of burned Qur’ans in front of the Islamic Center of Blacksburg, Virginia.

Just three months ago, at the height of controversy over abuse of the Muslim Holy Book by U.S. military guards at the Guantanamo Bay prison, a sign in front of a Baptist church on one of the most traveled highways in the USA (at 2361 U.S. 221 South) read, “The Koran needs to be flushed.” To support the hateful message, its pastor Creighton Lovelace said, “I believe that it is a statement supporting the word of God and that it (the Bible) is above all and that any other religious book that does not teach Christ as savior and lord as the 66 books of the Bible teaches it, is wrong.” [17] He further said that it was the work of God to display the sign and that no one in the church had spoken against it.

The U.S. Congress has yet to name an independent investigative commission similar to the one conducted by the Sept. 11 commission to examine how the Qur’an-abuse occurred in prisons across Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan and Iraq, and to develop policies to prevent such offensive incidences.

As to witch-hunting, there seems to be no let down against Muslims and their organizations. Almost all of the money exchange and charitable organizations have been shut down, some facing criminal charges of abetting terrorist organizations in the Muslim world. Muslims are afraid to write donation cheques for fear that they may be accused of funneling money to terrorists. Who can deny the influence of Saffron dollars to help poisonous ideologies like Hindutva in India, responsible for so much carnage in the largest democracy on earth? How about funds that are raised by sympathizers of the rogue state Israel, responsible for killing thousands of unarmed Palestinians? But no eyebrows are raised for such fund-raising that kills Muslims overseas.

Just the last week, on Friday morning, September 24, federal agents raided a Muslim campground in Moodus, Connecticut, seizing specimens and seeds from datashak, a plant native to Bangladesh and India. Members of the FBI and U.S. Department of Agriculture said in documents that they also seized 19 computer discs and an assortment of documents from the 18-acre Town Street property, owned by Darul Uloom Shady Brook, Inc. The campground’s caretaker is from Bangladesh, who had cooked meal containing datashak at a recent summer camp, attended by some two dozen Muslim youths.[18]

Soon after the Madrid bombing, Oregon lawyer Brandon Mayfield, a convert to Islam, was arrested in connection with the bombings after being linked by the FBI to a fingerprint found near the scene. After spending two weeks in jail, the FBI acknowledged its mistake and Mayfield was released. He has lately filed a lawsuit in federal court arguing that the federal government targeted him in the wake of the March Madrid train bombings because of his Muslim faith. In his suit, Mayfield challenges the constitutionality of the USA Patriot Act and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and says that the government violated his civil rights by searching his home and office, seizing his family's belongings and holding him in jail. [19]

In December 2003, an Arizona newspaper published a very provocative letter from a Tucson resident that urged fellow Americans to kill Muslims to retaliate for the death of American soldiers in Iraq. It read, “Whenever there is an assassination or another atrocity, we should proceed to the closest mosque and execute five of the first Muslims we encounter.” Two Tucson Muslims filed a lawsuit claiming that the letter constituted an assault and an intentional inflection of emotional distress. Interestingly, in July of this year the state Supreme Court in a 5-0 unanimous decision ruled that the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution protected the right of the resident and the paper for the provocative letter.

Just imagine the kind of hullabaloo that would have generated if a Muslim had written a similar piece in any Muslim-majority country urging fellow Muslims to kill (just) one (and not five) Christian(s) for every Muslim killed in Iraq and Afghanistan by the Anglo-American forces. No, I am not surprised with the verdict of the Arizona Supreme Court, but genuinely concerned at how murky the distinction between right and wrong is becoming. Remember how the Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld came to protect the right of free speech of General Boykin? It is these kinds of actions, condoning what most Muslims find offensive, that help breed hate crimes against Muslims. Spiteful and bigoted people take such as a license to do their evil acts. No wonder that there is such a mushrooming of hate literature in public libraries!

For every new post-9/11 book about Islam, available today in most public libraries, there are at least three that are written to vilify the faith and its adherents.[20] The world has not seen the preponderance of such hate literatures since the days of Hitler’s Germany. These hate books are used as arsenal in the contest to subjugate, strike down, compel and crush any Arab and Muslim resistance to western dominance.

And what to make of poisonous sermons and bigoted remarks from spiteful evangelical Christian priests like Pat Robertson, Hagee, Graham and other perverted bishops? [21]

While one can find excuses for the demented and depraved Christian pastor and the Tucson citizen, and also for bigoted and racist priests, ‘9/11-overnight-scholars,’ pen-pushing writers and their greedy publishers, how can one justify the remark of an elected member of the U.S. Congress - the Republican Congressman Tom Tancredo (Colorado) - who in July 2005 called for a nuclear attack on Islam’s holiest sites if there were to be another terrorist attack on the USA? [22]

In the aftermath of the London bombing of July 7, the pressure on Muslim American leadership from the various segments of the American society has been so acutely felt that on July 28, ’05, the Fiqh Council of North America had to issue a fatwa denouncing terrorism. Within a week, some 173 organizations, mosques and imams endorsed the fatwa. This is an interesting development given the fact that no other religious groups had been invoked to do such a thing for the alleged crimes committed by their fellow co-religionists. (Note: In terrorist activities, the Tamil Tigers, comprising Hindu rebels from Sri Lanka, are known to have committed more terrorist activities than any other group. I am not aware if the Vatican was ever swayed to condemning the past activities of the IRA. Interestingly, the United States remains the largest contributor to funding for the IRA.)

However, all is not gloom and doom for Muslims. One major step in improving America’s image in the Muslim world has been President Bush’s decision appointing Karen Hughes. She recently attended the 42nd ISNA conference in Chicago. In her brief talk, Ambassador Hughes elucidated the four E’s of her approach: Education, Empowerment, Engagement and Exchanges. She recognized the need to empower American Muslims so that they could become more effective ambassadors for Islam in America and the US in the Muslim World. She suggested that American Muslims and her department should work together to (1) advance a positive vision of hope and opportunity to the Muslim World, (2) isolate and marginalize forces of intolerance and violence, (3) foster a sense of common intent and common purpose and common values.

Ambassador Hughes recognizes that there are American ideologues who are continually preaching hatred against Islam and Muslims. Her success in public diplomacy in achieving the four goals will largely depend on her ability to keep in check the Islamophobic messages that consistently come from evangelical leaders, conservative talk shows and neoconservative columnists.

its not a very publicized or popular subject for news in america-

September 11, 2005

Muslims in America - Four Years After 9/11

by Habib Siddiqui

"The U.S. Congress has yet to name an independent investigative commission similar to the one conducted by the Sept. 11 commission to examine how the Qur’an-abuse occurred in prisons across Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan and Iraq, and to develop policies to prevent such offensive incidences."

Four years ago America’s sense of invulnerability on its own soil was shattered when two hijacked planes crashed separately into the twin towers of the WTC causing each to collapse. Since that momentous event, 9/11 has become an important anniversary. Not this year though. It was totally overshadowed by the Katrina disaster.

The anniversary also came at a time when President Bush’s approval rating was at an all time low with everything from the war in Iraq to oil price seemingly going in the wrong direction.

My friends and family members, living outside the United States, often ask me about how the aftermath has been for Muslims living in America. Answering the question is not as simple because one’s personal experiences would vary depending on the location one lives in, the job one does, the interaction one maintains both within and outside the Muslim community, etc. While the full dimension of backlash against Muslim Americans may never be known, from the reports I have been able to read and hear, there is no doubt that the last four years have been anything but pleasant for most Muslim Americans. This is because of the alleged involvement of some young Muslims hijackers with the attack on America on that fateful day. As for me, I hardly now perform congregational prayers in Islamic centers and mosques. I also don’t deliver as many lectures on Islam and Muslim issues that I used to do. I know of many Muslims who don’t frequent Islamic centers as often as they used to.

In July 2002, the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) polled 945 Muslims to find how 9/11 has affected them. Forty-eight percent of the respondents said that their lives had changed for the worse since 9/11 while 57% reported experiencing an act of bias or discrimination, ranging from disparaging remarks to a hate crime. [1]

Many new Muslim immigrants have clustered in certain jobs, notably as small business owners, running gas stations, convenience stores, motels, and as cab drivers. This may account for the prevalence of backlash victims among persons with these occupations. Two of the three 9/11-related murders for which charges have been brought were of convenience store workers. The third murdered victim was a gas station owner. The taxi dispatch services in many major cities reported that after 9/11 they had received threatening calls saying that their Muslim and Arab taxi workers would be killed. [2]

According to a 2002 Human Rights Watch (HRW) report “The September 11 Backlash” [3] (against Muslims and Arabs): “Mosques and places of worship perceived to be mosques appeared to be among the most likely places of September 11-related backlash violence. SAALT’s (South Asian American Leaders of Tomorrow) survey of bias incidents reported in major news media found 104 bias incidents against places of worship reported during the first week after September 11. [4] … Although September 11 backlash violence against individual Arabs and Muslims decreased markedly by November 2001, attacks continued against mosques or houses of worship perceived to be Arab or Muslim. On November 19, 2001, four teenagers burned down the Gobind Sadan, a multi-faith worship center in Oswego, New York, because they believed the worshippers were supporters of Osama Bin Laden. On March 25, 2002, a man who stated to police that he hated Muslims crashed his pickup truck into a mosque in Tallahassee, Florida thirty minutes after evening prayers.[5] On June 11, 2002, in Milipitas, California, vandals broke into a mosque under construction, scrawled derogatory remarks such as, "F- Arabs" and damaged the interior of a construction trailer near the mosque.[6] On August 24, 2002, federal authorities announced they had discovered a plan by a doctor in Tampa Bay to bomb and destroy approximately 50 mosques and Islamic cultural centers in south Florida. The doctor's home contained rocket launchers, sniper rifles and twenty live bombs.” [7]

As to job-related discrimination, the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) received 488 complaints as of May 2002. Of these, 301 involved persons who were fired from their jobs. A poll of Arab Americans conducted in May 2002 found that 20% had personally experienced job discrimination. [8]

In the pre-9/11 days, e.g., in 2000, the FBI received reports of 28 hate crimes (offenses motivated by race, religion, color, gender, etc.) against Muslims and Arabs in the U.S. In 2001, that number jumped to 481, most of these within weeks after 9/11. (The Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee, however, reported a higher figure; for instance, over 600 9/11-related hate crimes, committed against Arab Americans.)[9] What is important here is to realize that a U.S. Justice Department study found that a whopping 75% of hate crimes go unreported.[10] That means actual hate crimes could be four times the reported numbers.

Hate crimes against Muslim Americans increased by 121% to 1019 incidents in 2003, according to a report released on May 3, 2004 by Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR). The report also showed that overall anti-Muslim incidents in the United States increased by almost 70% in 2003.[11]

In the last two years, while the sporadic violence against anyone resembling a Muslim or an Arab has subsided, the level of aggressive disrespect and intolerance of Islam, mistrust of and discrimination against Muslims at workplaces is showing no sign of receding. The root cause may lie elsewhere - in the spiteful and bigoted sermons emanating from the churches, synagogues, temples, radio talk show programs, TV shows (especially Fox and the evangelical ones), and public libraries.

Quoting CAIR, the Human Rights Watch reports that the number of violent acts, discriminatory incidents and cases of harassment against Muslims rose 49% between 2003 and 2004 to 1522. [12]

The other more worrisome matter is: hate crimes against Muslims and Arabs remain disproportionately high compared to their proportion. For example, in Texas Arabs make up only about 0.3% of population, but they are victims in 4% of all hate crimes. About 0.5% percent of Texans are Muslims, but they are victims in 2.8% of the reported hate crimes. [13]

Some notable victims of witch-hunting include Jose Padilla and Capt. Yee.

Jose Padilla, a convert to Islam, was declared an “enemy combatant” (indeed the only American declared as such) by Presidential order and ordered locked away in a military brig in South Carolina — where he has languished since May 2002 in a windowless, 5-by-7-foot cell that is always brightly lit — without an indictment, a trial or access to a lawyer. When a U.S. District Court ruled in early September of this year in favor of President Bush in the case of Jose Padilla — it struck a major blow at the Constitution, upholding actions by the administration that Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens has said have “created a unique and unprecedented threat to the freedom of every American citizen.” [14]

In September of 2003, Capt. James J. Yee, a 1990 graduate of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, N.Y., another convert to Islam, who served as an Army Islamic chaplain and counseled prisoners at the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, naval base, was charged with espionage, aiding the enemy and spying. A year later, all charges against him were dropped. [15]

Few other Muslim members of the Armed forces were similarly harassed on cooked up charges of passing information to terrorists, only to be dropped later. [16]

Most Muslim places of worship are now monitored by the FBI and their informants to unearth Muslim radicalism. However, radical and hate sermons emanating from satellite channels and talk Radio shows, run by fundamentalist and evangelical Christians, are considered quite kosher and are routinely overlooked.

As to the backlash against Muslims in 2005, I provide below some random cases.

The Los Angeles Times in its June 4, 2005 issue reported that a suspicious fire gutted a 1500 square foot mosque in San Barnardino, California. The June 17, 2005 issue of the Washington Post reported that someone left a bag of burned Qur’ans in front of the Islamic Center of Blacksburg, Virginia.

Just three months ago, at the height of controversy over abuse of the Muslim Holy Book by U.S. military guards at the Guantanamo Bay prison, a sign in front of a Baptist church on one of the most traveled highways in the USA (at 2361 U.S. 221 South) read, “The Koran needs to be flushed.” To support the hateful message, its pastor Creighton Lovelace said, “I believe that it is a statement supporting the word of God and that it (the Bible) is above all and that any other religious book that does not teach Christ as savior and lord as the 66 books of the Bible teaches it, is wrong.” [17] He further said that it was the work of God to display the sign and that no one in the church had spoken against it.

The U.S. Congress has yet to name an independent investigative commission similar to the one conducted by the Sept. 11 commission to examine how the Qur’an-abuse occurred in prisons across Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan and Iraq, and to develop policies to prevent such offensive incidences.

As to witch-hunting, there seems to be no let down against Muslims and their organizations. Almost all of the money exchange and charitable organizations have been shut down, some facing criminal charges of abetting terrorist organizations in the Muslim world. Muslims are afraid to write donation cheques for fear that they may be accused of funneling money to terrorists. Who can deny the influence of Saffron dollars to help poisonous ideologies like Hindutva in India, responsible for so much carnage in the largest democracy on earth? How about funds that are raised by sympathizers of the rogue state Israel, responsible for killing thousands of unarmed Palestinians? But no eyebrows are raised for such fund-raising that kills Muslims overseas.

Just the last week, on Friday morning, September 24, federal agents raided a Muslim campground in Moodus, Connecticut, seizing specimens and seeds from datashak, a plant native to Bangladesh and India. Members of the FBI and U.S. Department of Agriculture said in documents that they also seized 19 computer discs and an assortment of documents from the 18-acre Town Street property, owned by Darul Uloom Shady Brook, Inc. The campground’s caretaker is from Bangladesh, who had cooked meal containing datashak at a recent summer camp, attended by some two dozen Muslim youths.[18]

Soon after the Madrid bombing, Oregon lawyer Brandon Mayfield, a convert to Islam, was arrested in connection with the bombings after being linked by the FBI to a fingerprint found near the scene. After spending two weeks in jail, the FBI acknowledged its mistake and Mayfield was released. He has lately filed a lawsuit in federal court arguing that the federal government targeted him in the wake of the March Madrid train bombings because of his Muslim faith. In his suit, Mayfield challenges the constitutionality of the USA Patriot Act and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and says that the government violated his civil rights by searching his home and office, seizing his family's belongings and holding him in jail. [19]

In December 2003, an Arizona newspaper published a very provocative letter from a Tucson resident that urged fellow Americans to kill Muslims to retaliate for the death of American soldiers in Iraq. It read, “Whenever there is an assassination or another atrocity, we should proceed to the closest mosque and execute five of the first Muslims we encounter.” Two Tucson Muslims filed a lawsuit claiming that the letter constituted an assault and an intentional inflection of emotional distress. Interestingly, in July of this year the state Supreme Court in a 5-0 unanimous decision ruled that the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution protected the right of the resident and the paper for the provocative letter.

Just imagine the kind of hullabaloo that would have generated if a Muslim had written a similar piece in any Muslim-majority country urging fellow Muslims to kill (just) one (and not five) Christian(s) for every Muslim killed in Iraq and Afghanistan by the Anglo-American forces. No, I am not surprised with the verdict of the Arizona Supreme Court, but genuinely concerned at how murky the distinction between right and wrong is becoming. Remember how the Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld came to protect the right of free speech of General Boykin? It is these kinds of actions, condoning what most Muslims find offensive, that help breed hate crimes against Muslims. Spiteful and bigoted people take such as a license to do their evil acts. No wonder that there is such a mushrooming of hate literature in public libraries!

For every new post-9/11 book about Islam, available today in most public libraries, there are at least three that are written to vilify the faith and its adherents.[20] The world has not seen the preponderance of such hate literatures since the days of Hitler’s Germany. These hate books are used as arsenal in the contest to subjugate, strike down, compel and crush any Arab and Muslim resistance to western dominance.

And what to make of poisonous sermons and bigoted remarks from spiteful evangelical Christian priests like Pat Robertson, Hagee, Graham and other perverted bishops? [21]

While one can find excuses for the demented and depraved Christian pastor and the Tucson citizen, and also for bigoted and racist priests, ‘9/11-overnight-scholars,’ pen-pushing writers and their greedy publishers, how can one justify the remark of an elected member of the U.S. Congress - the Republican Congressman Tom Tancredo (Colorado) - who in July 2005 called for a nuclear attack on Islam’s holiest sites if there were to be another terrorist attack on the USA? [22]

In the aftermath of the London bombing of July 7, the pressure on Muslim American leadership from the various segments of the American society has been so acutely felt that on July 28, ’05, the Fiqh Council of North America had to issue a fatwa denouncing terrorism. Within a week, some 173 organizations, mosques and imams endorsed the fatwa. This is an interesting development given the fact that no other religious groups had been invoked to do such a thing for the alleged crimes committed by their fellow co-religionists. (Note: In terrorist activities, the Tamil Tigers, comprising Hindu rebels from Sri Lanka, are known to have committed more terrorist activities than any other group. I am not aware if the Vatican was ever swayed to condemning the past activities of the IRA. Interestingly, the United States remains the largest contributor to funding for the IRA.)

However, all is not gloom and doom for Muslims. One major step in improving America’s image in the Muslim world has been President Bush’s decision appointing Karen Hughes. She recently attended the 42nd ISNA conference in Chicago. In her brief talk, Ambassador Hughes elucidated the four E’s of her approach: Education, Empowerment, Engagement and Exchanges. She recognized the need to empower American Muslims so that they could become more effective ambassadors for Islam in America and the US in the Muslim World. She suggested that American Muslims and her department should work together to (1) advance a positive vision of hope and opportunity to the Muslim World, (2) isolate and marginalize forces of intolerance and violence, (3) foster a sense of common intent and common purpose and common values.

Ambassador Hughes recognizes that there are American ideologues who are continually preaching hatred against Islam and Muslims. Her success in public diplomacy in achieving the four goals will largely depend on her ability to keep in check the Islamophobic messages that consistently come from evangelical leaders, conservative talk shows and neoconservative columnists.

I really don't think there is discrimination against Catholics at all. However, in reference to the posters, let us not make an equivalence between two points on the opposite side of the spectrum. Racial discrimination and perhaps religious discrimination exists in America as it does in the Muslim world. However, they are on the opposite side of the spectrum. In America we have the constitutional guarantee of equality of all citizens. In the Muslim world they have institutionalized discrimination against minorities.

It's completely different. The day Christians can freely and openly practise and preach Christianity in Saudi Arabia is the day I would accept that the situation in the Muslim world and America are equivalent.

liberated i swear if i ever met you in prson i would just have to take you to get some ice cream
(in my car)

Back on topic:

One of the discriminations against Muslim women in Saudi Arabia is that they are not permitted to drive. More sad interpretation of the Koran!!!

well, this muslimah drives her gas-friendly car when she gets a hankerin fro the open road-

i was taught how to drive by a nascar racer- so im environmentally conscious, safe, AND skilled-

its a conundrum when reality keeps slapping sown your shabbily constructed fantasies, aint it?

any new thoughts on the actual topic?

Second class citizens ride in the back of the bus. Third class citizens are not allowed to ride the bus.

lib- who are the second class?

(i know youve been just waiting for that question)

Jihadist,

Apparently you still cannot defend your "good" book.

The Koran teaches death to non-believers and relegates women to third class citizens. There is no defense of this sham of a book. I reiterate, it like the Bible, was written by "Sun baked, brain-swollen scribes who had their own agendas.

thanks jihadist- i realized i hadnt made a personal statement of disgust at any violence perpertrated against any person for their religious convictions-

unlike your more focused monkeybrain- im of the easily distracted butterfly variety- and like a foolish kitten often go leaping wildly after shiny objects....

thanks for bringing things back to topic-

Victoria

Frankly, Anynonymous confused me until I remembered he is a proponent of Islam/Muslims as evil and such.

Boutros-Boutros Ghali, a former UN Secretary General, is a Christian Copt. I came across many Christian Copts in Egypt holding high ranking posts in governments and are successful in other spheres of life, including the media, arts and business. The Christian Copts of Egypt tells me that they are discriminated by other Christian denominations too in the west and too often used by them to score religious/political points against Muslims. They are aware of and appalled by this lack of sincerity purportedly seeking to defend their interests and rights.

yes- you would think that bush would condemn these acts wouldnt you?
he has been appealed to by mubarak, the president of egypt-
but no condemnation has been forthcoming- as a matter of fact- egypt is the 5th largest recipient of usa foreign aid in the world-

possibly its proximity to and strategic position in the middle east helps our leaders to overlook these human rights abuses.

what do you think anonymous?

then there are the flurry of confusing conversions- muslim to christian and christian to muslim-

also there are outright accusations by muslims and christians alike that these incidences are being machinated by foreign interests altogether-

as they have a long history of living in peace together-

its funny you think the government of egypt is fostering the brotherhood of islam, when in fact it has imprisoned and executed its adherents for some 70 years now.

thats like saying the united states backs al-qaeda...

egyptian politics are very confusing even to egyptians living there-

whats the link to your stories anon?

tommy- actually - while its likely the klan didnt inquire into the religion of amfrican americans when they were about to beat or lynch them- the klan is virulently anti-catholic also- as well as anti-jewish- so religion has played a part in their decision making processes of who to dicriminate or persecute against.

I see that Anynomous is focussing on and tabulating on discriminations against Copts in Egypt while ignoring discriminations and persecutions of Muslims in Chechnya, Southern Thailand and Southern Philippines etc.

Your US government is already active in speaking to the Egyptian government on this, as the church groups are pressuring your government on it.

What Anonymous (I know who he is) is doing is seeing and highlighting discriminations from the perspective of one's religious affiliation by another. There is of course, also highlighting of discriminations from the perspective of our ethnic affiliations, e.g. Chinese, Poles, Vietnamese etc.

When accussations of discriminations are raised by an individual, it is often due to non-acceptance for employment, promotions, access to education or housing or anything that does not go our way.

It may be valid, or it may be due to just plain unsuitability, lack of qualification or ability.

All too often, accussations of discriminations and/or racism is also leveled at a tired salesgirl who may just dislike a customer's boorishness, or a waiter who just wanted to serve other customers who are there before.

Discriminations are real, but has be cheapened by those who can't distinguish it from their own personal behaviours that cause people to ignore them, or just do not want to have them around at the workplace, clubs or restaurants.

As for real discriminations due to race, gender and religion, these On Faith threads is not sufficent to enumerate them.

I should know, as a beige Mulsim woman living in a third world or non-western country. From the poor Catholic woman in Brazil to the suffocating Japanese woman in Japan.

Here what real discrimination would be like:

Over the past fourteen Hundred years Coptic Christian in Egypt endured all forms of discrimination exerted by Muslim extremists. Since the Arab envision to Egypt in 650 AD, Copts have been always terrorized by Islamists fundamentals. Copts have compelled by Muslim leaders to relinquish their native Coptic language and adopt the Arabic one. They have been called by Al Azhar (the most prominent Islamic institution In Egypt) as infidels and rouges elements because of religion. They also have been subjected to all kind of hate crimes including, the abduction of young Coptic girls, the killing of Coptic Women and children and the destruction of their places of worship.

Over the past forty years, the government of Egypt has endorsed and fostered an environment of Islamic radicalism to recruit more Muslim fundamentals. This phenomenon played a key role to force Islam on Coptic girls and enhance the isolation of the Coptic community in Egypt. As a result of citing in the constitution that Islam is the main source of legislation in Egypt, Coptic Christians has lost the freedom of religion including the right to build churches and the right to worship free respect.

During the 80s and under the Mubark administration, Islamic militants instigated several violent episodes against the Copts and western tourists, attacked, sacked and burned churches and Coptic businesses.

During the recent package of constitutional reform that took place in 2006, Mubark did not insert any constitutional provisions that enhance the rights of Christians in Egypt. On the contrary, he kept the provision that emphasizing the role of Islam as the main source of legislation.

Enclosed are some of the incidents that demonstrate the violence endured by Copts over the past 25 years:

July 1980: St. Mary church in Cairo has been burned by Islamic Militant

June, 1981: 80 Coptic Christian were slaughtered in there houses, in the vicinity of El zauia El hamra, Cairo, Egypt

July, 1981: St. Mary Church was bombed by Muslim radicals, in the vicinity of Shoubra, Cairo, Egypt. Seven people were killed in the attack.

March 1990: Rumors that Copts are using Muslim girls in a white slave trade prompts two weeks of violence in Abu Quraqa (250 kms s. of Cairo). Churches, shops, houses and cars are firebombed and two Christians are kidnapped but there are no deaths or injuries. (Note: There are constant complaints of harassment by Islamic militants during this period. This harassment includes, as noted earlier, the spreading of false rumors, extortion and violence up to and including murder, often with the tacit approval or even participation of local officials. Such incidents, short of murder, will not be noted here unless they deserve special attention.)

May 1990: Father Bishoy Hanna was killed by Muslim extremists along with his wife and five more people at his church in the province of Alexandria, Egypt.

June 1990: A Christian liquor store owner is attacked by Islamic militants with swords and chains.

1990: In Minshiat at Nassar (310 km s. of Cairo) workers repairing a Church are attacked by Islamic Militants.

September 20-22 1991: Militant Muslims commit a wave of violence against Christian churches and shops in Imbabah, a suburb of Cairo. Police refuse to take reports of many incidents and discourage future reports. Some Copts who attempt to make reports are arrested. Also, after being harassed by a Muslim customer, a Christian butcher shoots and wounds him.

March 11 1992: 3 people are killed and more injured in a gun battle between Christians and Muslims in the village of Sanbau (350 kms. of Cairo).

April 29 1992: A church is stoned in Imbabah.

May 4 1992: 11 Copts and two Muslims attempting to defend them are killed by gunmen, believed to be Islamic militants, in Sanabu. The authorities dismiss this as being part of a local "blood feud."

October 27 1992: Four gunmen, believed to be Islamic militants, kill a Christian jeweler and his assistant.

November 1 1992: Gunmen, believed to be Islamic militants, wound 10 Copts in an attack on a bus returning to Dayrut (310 kms of Cairo) from Cairo.

December 20 1992: A Coptic weekly, Al-Watan, urges the government to stop what is called a new invasion of the schools by Islamic extremists. Headmasters are discriminating against Copts and forcing female students to wear veils. "Fanatic teachers" are also discriminating against their Coptic students. The Article notes that the government is opposed to this but is not doing enough to stop it.

January 4 1993: In two separate assaults, gunmen, believed to be Islamic militants, kill one Copt and wound another.
A Coptic church in Dayrut is firebombed.

February 23 1993: In a Reuters article, Copts complain of discrimination including: job discrimination; discrimination by government both in the awarding of scholarships and upper government jobs; an informal Muslim boycott of Copt stores; discrimination and segregation by teachers and school officials; and the removal of all reference to Copts and Christianity from many school curriculums. This has resulted in the emigration of as much as a half million in the past ten years. Although the government protects the Copts from physical threats, the Copts complain that most government action is due to the threats to the state and foreign tourists rather than any concern for the Copts.

March 1993: A report issued by the Egyptian Organization for Human Rights accuses the government of abdicating its responsibility to protect Christians from Islamic extremists. It notes that attacks occur in the sight and sometimes with the help of security and local government authorities. It further accuses the government of doing little about such incidents until it became clear that they were also a threat to "the political system and the lives of those in power."

March 1 1993: Egypt bans from mosques "scholars preach militant thoughts" due to attacks upon tourists and Christians. (Note: the government has been engaging in increasing levels of repression against Islamic militants throughout this period. This ranges from arrests to gun battles involving hundreds of police, government troops and Islamic militants. For the most part, the details of these actions are not documented here. Also, as noted earlier, many believe that this government action is due to the threat the militants pose to the state and foreign tourists rather than any wish to protect the Copts.)

April 20 1993: A Copt school teacher is shot and wounded in Dayrut by gunmen, believed to be Islamic militants. Five Islamic militants are arrested in Aswan for planning to violently disrupt a non-Muslim festival which coincides with the Coptic Easter.

April 24 1993: Assailants, believed to be Islamic militants, attack with knives and wound two Coptic high school students.

May 19 1993: In a roundup of Islamic militants, the government seizes numerous books, cassettes and videotapes calling for violence and discrimination against the Copts.

July 22 1993: A Copt physician is shot by gunmen, believed to be Islamic militants, in Manfalout (350 km south of Cairo).

August 8 1993: Gunmen, believed to be Islamic militants, in Dayrut wound a Copt in his brother's pharmacy.

August 24 1993: Gunmen, believed to be Islamic militants, kill a Christian student in Anboub (300 kms of Cairo).

September 21 1993: Gunmen, believed to be Islamic militants, kill a Copt schoolteacher in Dayrut.

October 20 1993: Gunmen, believed to be Islamic militants, open fire in a Christian owned pharmacy killing one and injuring two.

January 27 1994: A senior Copt police official is wounded in an attack by gunmen believed to be Islamic militants. His driver and bodyguard are killed.

April 25 1994: Egyptians are upset at an upcoming convention on minorities in the Middle East. They say that the Copts are not a minority and are an integral part of Egyptian society. They attribute the conference to foreign interference.

March 4 1994: An Islamic militant, believed to be guilty of two shooting attacks on Coptic churches in Mir (300 kms of Cairo) in the previous week, is arrested.

March 11 1994: Gunmen, believed to be Islamic militants, kill 5 including two monks outside a church in Qussiyah (300 kms of Cairo).

June 26 1994: A Coptic weekly accuses the government of working to increase the wave of bigotry, antipathy and hatred against Copts.

July 17 1994: Pope Shenouda III of the Egyptian Coptic Church in an outspoken interview complains of discrimination against Copts in Egypt. He says that Copts play little part in public life and face problems building and repairing churches. He complains that Copts have trouble obtaining voting cards from police, thus preventing many of them from voting. He also refers to Copts being killed by Islamic militants in southern Egypt and Copt houses being destroyed without compensation from the state.

September 1 1994: Islamic militants shoot dead 2 policemen guarding a Coptic church in southern Egypt. Note: In general the government actively opposes attacks by Islamic militants on Copts and prosecutes the perpetrators of these attacks to the full extent of the law. This is probably more a result the fact that the Islamic militants oppose the government than a desire to protect the Copts.

November 11 1994: Islamic militants kill 2 men in southern Egypt including a Christian government official.

November 22 1994: Suspected Islamic militants kill a Christian security guard in the southern Egyptian province of Minya.

February 25 1995: Suspected Islamic militants shoot dead a Christian civilian and wound another in a southern Egyptian village.

March 11 1995: Suspected Islamic militants shoot dead a Copt village elder in southern Egypt.

June 4 1995: Islamic militants seeking to avenge a dead relative kill 9 people, including 3 Copts, in 4 separate attacks in southern Egypt.

June 8 1995: Suspected Islamic militants shoot dead a wealthy Copt pharmacist for making a donation of property to his local parish.

August 13 1995: 6 are killed after a fight breaks out over a Copt girl who converted to Islam in a northern Egyptian province.

August 29-30 1995: In 2 separate incidents, suspected Islamic militants shoot dead 4 Copts in southern Egypt.

September 2 1995: Suspected Islamic militants shoot dead a Copt who works for a local council in southern Egypt.
Update 26 March 1997

7 November 1995: According to the Egyptian Organization for Human Rights, within the past 10 months, Islamic extremists have assassinated 74 police and 24 Copts in southern Egypt.

4 December 1995: Gunmen in a car shot dead three Coptic Christian men and wounded two others in a hit and run attack near the town of Abu Qurqas, In a separate attack in the same area and at the same time, gunmen shot and killed policeman Mustafa Khalil Mohamed.

9 December 1995: Forty people were killed and between 400 -700 injured during Egypt=s general elections. Thousands of Christians could not find their names on the lists and constituencies where Copts ran as candidates, their rivals distributed leaflets saying Moslems should not vote for non-Moslems.

12 December 1995: President Mubarak appointed 10 MPs and the Speaker using his constitutional privilege to enlarge the assembly with women and members of the Coptic community.

12 January 1996: A Christian farmer was killed by unidentified gunmen in the village of Abu Obeid in Minya Province.

26 February 1996: Eight Copts and three others were killed in Assuit Province in Southern Egypt. At least 47 people have died in the past two moths in Assuit and Menia Provinces. Most of these were policemen and suspected police informers (non-Copts). In a separate incident mobs set fire to 41 houses in a predominantly-Christian village in the governorate of Sharqiya after a row over a reported Church expansion. Four were injured and 50 arrested in the incident.

7 August 1996: The body of a Coptic student was found in the vicinity of Abu Qurqas.

26 August 1996: Four, including three Copts, were killed in the southern village of Nazlet Roman near the town of Abu Qurqas in Minya province. One Copt was also wounded in the attack. The five were members of the newly-formed patrols encouraged by the government to help police hunt militants using nearby fields and mountains as hideouts. A total of 23 people, not all of them Copts, have been killed in attacks during August.

4 September 1996: The American Coptic Union urged the U.S. Congress to investigate the killings of Christians in Egypt and to postpone aid to Egypt until basic rights and security were secured for all citizens.

24 January 1997: A new political party, al Wasat, was launched. Its members are Copts and former members of the Muslim Brotherhood and its goal is to heal the breaches between the two religions. It is not viewed as strong or very likely to have much influence over Egyptian politics.

February 1997: The State Department=s Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 1996 reported that during 1996 at least 22 Copts were killed in upper Egypt where 30-40% of the population are Christians. There were also reports of acts of violence against Coptic Churches and Copt-owned businesses.

Government discriminatory practices against the Coptic community included: suspected statistical under representation of the size of the Christian population; anti-Christian discrimination in education; production of some Islamic television programs with anti-Christian themes; job discrimination in the police, armed forces and other agencies.

12 February 1997: Ten Coptic youth were killed in an attack on a Church in southern Egypt. The youth were attending a prayer service at the Church. Police believed the killings were orchestrated by the group Gama'a al-Islamiya, the largest of the militant Islamic organizations in the country. The Gama'a has attacked the Coptic community only sporadically, concentrating attacks on police and police informers regardless of religion, and they denied involvement in this attack. Moslem and Christian community leaders have unanimously condemned the attacks. It was the worst attack on the Coptic community in almost a year. Police also suspect the same gunmen in an attack which killed three Coptic Christians. They were found dead near Abu Qurqas in Minya Province.

15 March 1997: Gunmen killed 13, including nine Copts, in a predominantly Christian hamlet 300 miles south of Cairo. Though attacks on the Coptic community have increased in recent months, the overall level of violence has sharply decreased from a peak of 415 deaths in 1995 to 187 during 1996, and Islamic militants are clearly on the defensive.
Update June 1999

March 22 1997: A total of 21 Copts were killed by Islamic extremists in February and there was a growing fear that there could be a migration of Copts from Southern Egypt because of the growing fear of attack. (AP)

April 10 1997: Copts were killed in two attacks. A total of 13 Copts were killed by Islamic militants who released a statement clarifying that the Copts had not been targeted specifically. (Facts on File)

May 3 1997: The Interior Minister said that one of the faults of the Moslem brotherhood was that they want to segregate the Copts. (BBC)

October 14 1997: Two Copts and nine police were killed by militants in the South. (New York Times).

November 1998: four Policemen tortured seventy Copts because of their religious affiliation, El Kosheh, Shouag Egypt.

December 2000: 20 Copts burned to death by Muslims in El Kosheh, Shouag Egypt

January 2006: Muslim Youth Attack Copts in a Village near Luxor, Egypt

April 2006: Muslims stormed four churches in Alexandria and kill one person.

ASIM MA i was going for the visual imagery in my own mind- ive thought it would make a beautiful computer graphic- but i dont have access to or knowledge of that technology- (yet)

here a poem about trees as prayer forms-
(in line with the universal idea of all material worldin submission to and worship of ALLAH (god)

stretch out thy woody arms to god
they are always upraised in praise
ascending from the earthy sod
reverence devotion all your days

i know its cheesy-

thank you william for your kind thoughts
it is still my fervent prayer to recapture those moments of consciousness and extremem childlike gratitude in my life today thats actually one of my prayers the gratitude part

liberated- why dont you post the quotes along with the numbers?
i am too easily distracted and lazy to look them up
peace

Matthew 5:14 is another "Jesus Power Passage". 21+. The World's Light: (1) Gos. Thom. 24:1-3 & P. Oxy. 655:24d; (2) Matt 5:14a; (3a?) Dial. Sav. 14 (3b?) Dial. Sav. 34; (4a) John 8:12; (4b) John 11:9-10; (4c) John 12:35-36.

Matt 5:14a
"You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hid."

This passage is an extension of the Beatitudes so light up the world you Christians, Jews, Moslems and non-believers for no one but you owns the Beatitudes and their extensions.

Actually it is Luke 18:17. It and its equivalents are what I call "Jesus Power" statements. 20+. Kingdom and Children: (1) Gos. Thom. 22:1-2; (2) Mark 10:13-16 = Matt 19:13-15 = Luke 18:15-17; (3) Matt 18:3; (4) John 3:1-5,9-10.

First, it passes the attestation and timing test of contemporary NT exegetes as being a saying of the historic Jesus.

Second, with this statement, Jesus vitiates the Catholic Church's teachings about baptism, original sin and limbo as he was addressing Jewish children who had never been baptized but who would go to Heaven if they had died right there. B16 should delete original sin and limbo and bring the Catholic Church into the real world. Such a move would also make Catholicism more compatible with other religions i.e. less discrimination would result.

"Luke 18:15-17
/15/ People were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they sternly ordered them not to do it. /16/ But Jesus called for them and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs. /17/ Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it."

Victoria

Thank you for that posting and the very personal self disclosure. It brings two things to mind:

Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it. Lk 8:17

You are the light of the world. Mt 5:14

Pamela,
Right on the money.

Victoria,
always nice to see your posts, but need to digress a bit: on one of your posts you talked about aesthetics in Islam-Muslims across time zones-at all times-are praying in submission to Al Mighty God-not only beautiful but philosophical and thought provoking-Ayat Allah-for those who are looking for them with the intellectual curiousity and open hearts; I might add similarly, that every creature in the universe celebrates God in different ways: the perfect rhythm and harmony of the solar system, the four seasons, day and night..and more...

when i was searcing for a convent to fit into- i had the opportunity to visit many different flavors of nuns in their environs- there were the old school habit wearing lifetime virgins whose life experience was within the confines of serving mother church-- there were the middle class widows who had already had their children and lived in society and were (actually kind of retiring from life) and the young idealistic short-haired sweatsuit wearing feminists(i traveled with a carmelite nun - she was out of the cloister for the first time in 45 years because of a sickness in the family) the fems quickly hid the beer when sister margaret of the holy face of jesus came on the scene and she was sweet enough to pretend she hadnt seen-
i also spentalot of time in the homes of priests- replete with personal housekeepers and mercedes in the driveway-
the difference in the lifestyle can be likened to the lord of the manner and the serfs tightly squished together in dorm style lodgings-
the retirement packages nd medical benefits are wildly disparate also-
(ive visited priests in their private hospital rooms) nuns dont get such treatment.
there is alot of misogyny within the church in regards to its treatmenet of its servants-
(vocations are so low that if they dont start ordaining women there wont be any priests in the pulpits in a few years)

i am loathe to actively criticize other religions or point out their treatment of other humans- but since i havent seen any other laity responding on these boards i thought id throw in my experience-

like america was built on the riches acquired through the free labor of slaves- the catholic church has also acquired and retained much of its wealth for the same reason-
i dont see a bright future for the church unless it changes its policies towards women- it is one of the more damining aspects of catholicism. (the word catholic actually means 'universal' there seems to be some egalitarianism implied in that doesnt there?)
however as far as charity goes to peoples-
the catholic church holds the doctorate in that-
for all the criticism that it comes under- no one can deny its extraordinary contributions in this respect- if i judged it purely from the perspective of active charity- id still be a catholic hands down- (but obviously there are more reasons than that)

i am always a little freaked by the horror stories of catholics because i had beautiful experiences with clergy all my life-

LKT- in answer to your questions- i was raised by an agnostic and atheist and started going to church when i was about 6ish-
no one ever forced me to go- and i had no adult supervision so it was my own joy to be there and through my childish eyes i perceived love and light and beauty in it and nothing else-
actually i endured a great deal of criticism and derision for my beliefs-(later) there is an intellectual arrogance in people that they feel necessary to patronize believers as brain-washed automatons-instead of holistic seekers and actors in their own lives.

if people only believed in the material things that they can substantiate with their own sight- we wouldnt be talking on our wireless cells- or any number of achievements that came from intelligent believers looking under the surface of the material world- everything that our parents tell us- even those that scare us are not necessarily bad- without pain to give us warnings wed be a world of handless creatures snorting around on the ground for our food- (all of us have touched things that could harm or mutilate us)

In the general reader response to this week's question, Butch raises an interesting point which I hope some of the resondees will explore further with me. I copy it here also as some of you participated in a heated discussion about teaching religion in the schools.

Butch Krichmar :
"I have a question for all you Christians....When
did you come to the realization that a god existed? When did you come to the conclusion that
you are a Christian?
Were you given the opportunity to investigate other belief systems before accepting Christianity
as your faith?"
The problem as I see it, is that children are
brain washed from an early age by their parents as
per how to believe, and told that to do other wise
would bring about damnation."

This is delimma I have faced. As an atheist parent, I did not feel comfortable taking my children to church. I could have picked any church in our community to send them to, but I knew that my discomfort with the tenents or more importantly practices of almost every faith could easily get transferred to my children, so I chose instead not to have them participate in any.

Recently someone told me, not knowing my status as an atheist, that children not exposed to a religion from birth COULD not truly believe in a religion or have faith in God. The implication was that there would be so much negative input that the child was unlikely to be able to reject its parents' viewpoints in order to embrace a religion.

Because my huband's parents were religious, we made sure that our children knew that we accepted their religious beliefs just as we accepted them as good human beings to be loved and honored. In our case, we tried to suggest it was alright for them to explore on their own and to visit churches with their school friends. Both of our children were exposed to a very limited amount of "organized religion" and made very different choices for themselves. One embraced religion and practices it with her children, while the other does not embrace any religion.

I have always believed, like Butch, that children raised by religious parents were so "brainwashed" that they could not easily reject their parents' religion, even though I have known many adults who rejected all or most of their religious upbringing. Perhaps the real issue is that religion needs to be introduced to children at a later age to remove some of the "mystique" and make it a real intellectual choice. But then I'm sure those of "faith" would rebel against that idea as it is the "deeper needs" that religion fulfills not the intellectual ones.

I was raised by parents who did not have strong relgious beliefs and did not attend church, but my grandmother was very religious and tried to "convert" all her grandchildren to her religion. I participated as a young adult, found it emotionally scary and rejected my self-chosen "baptism" and later became an atheist as an adult. I would be interested in other views on this issue, especially as the last week's question the panelists responded to was the one of teaching about religion in the school systems.

Halozcel -- as currently practiced, I'd agree the church isn't exactly the bastion of women's (or men's) liberation. But I don't think it has to remain that way. Just as we are seeing Islamic feminism, Catholic feminism and Liberation Theology cannot be discounted. Catholic women are being ordained. They are not accepted at this point, but I believe the day will come when they are.

If you like science fiction, one of my favorite authors, Louise Marley, writes about the future of the Catholic church in The Child Goddess, and about a Talibanesque society in The Terrorist of Irustan. Both books raise interesting questions about feminism and religion, personal integrity, as well as exploring how totalitarian/authoritarian regimes impact all members of society. Lots of food for thought.

Norrie Hoyt,

Thanks for the kind words.

It's funny, I was raised in a parish with a very strict priest. It was an issue of geography (small town, closest parish). My parents get so much credit for filtering and clarifying for me what it means to be a good Catholic over dinner every night.

I think my religious and political temperment also comes from being raised in a Union household. There were as many union discussions at dinner as there were religious. My father was an auto-worker. If intolerance of other religions (or races, etc..) overwhelms you, how can you expect to maintain the "solidarity" necessary to make the union work?

I am not a union member myself. I'm what my Dad would have referred to as "management". But I can be humble (or at least try with all my might) because of where I came from, and what my parents did to get me here.

Also like Islam,Catholicism finds itself charged with misogyny.

It is unfotunately not charge.It is absolute reality,indisputable reality.Unfortunately....Unfortunately...

Jihadist,

We are bashing the Koran and will continue to do so as long as it teaches death to non-believers and relegates women to third class citizens. There is no defense of this sham of a book. I reiterate, it like the Bible, was written by "Sun baked, brain-swollen scribes who had their own agendas.

Danny B.,

Thank you for your post, both personally, and because you're enlightened in what you say.

My wife and sons tell me I get carried away sometimes when I post. I'm sure I do.

I think this happens because we posters aren't face-to-face. The abstractness of the internet posts leads people to sometimes say things they wouldn't normally say. It's just like road rage. Being separated from other people in the car leads some to act as if driving were a video game.

I try never to mock anyone's religious beliefs. I very much appreciate how a genuine faith provides security and joy to people.

I respect believers' psyches and the precariousness of this incarnate existence. As a Buddhist sympathizer, I agree that this world is characterized by dukka ("suffering" or more accurately translated, I've read, as "unsatisfactoriness").

Thank you again for your comments. You have my best wishes.

Norrie Hoyt,

I hope you don't think that I was referring to you specifically. I am familiar with your posts throughout these threads, and many times we do not agree. However, it never occurred to me to think that you were any of the things you mention above.

On points you are making here I do agree.

--I do get upset, and speak out against the Catholic church when it tries to use political and governmental power to constrict my life and destroy my freedoms.--

For the Pope to announce his positions on issues of public discourse in the USA, it is nothing more than opinion as far as it concerns me as a VOTER. Many Catholics disagree with me. I do not feel that I compromise my faith by voting (an American duty, FOR America) as an American first and foremost. I will not use my vote to impose on others that which I can only justify with arguments from my faith.

In terms of how I conduct myself in matters of faith, those same positions from the Pope carry much more weight.

Likewise, I would give any Catholic candidate the benefit of the doubt that they are not a secret puppet for the Vatican, until proven otherwise. In which case, I would be outraged.

I would afford a candidate of ANY other faith the same.

But all of this is "off question" in this forum.

It's just as hurtful to mock a Catholic's faith without hesitation as it is to mock their race, or social class. That's the only point I was trying to make. That I don't see why it is OK to diregard propriety when it comes to talking about Catholics or their beliefs.

Danny B.,

I've been called "anti-Catholic", "intolerant", "prejudiced", and so on in these threads, because I oppose many items on the Catholic hierarchy's political agenda. In particular, I'm against those items that would constrict my and other people's liberties and freedoms.

I don't see that the adjectives above apply to me - I'm acting in self defense against a powerful organization that aims to destroy liberties that are now enjoyed in this country.

My opposition to this political agenda has nothing to do with anyone's religious beliefs or personal characteristics.

A few years ago I spent three weeks at Duke's Diet and Fitness Center (it worked - I lost some weight and kept it off for three years). There were four priests there at the same as my wife and I. Also present was a legal advisor to the Vatican.

I love to give books to people and I gave a book to each of them. We ate many meals together and had a great time. One 78-year-old priest (since deceased, PBUH) told a very funny joke about JPII's Polishness (the priest was Italian-American).

So I don't believe I'm prejudiced ab initio against any individual. Jihadist, the sparkling commentator in these threads, wrote that under traditional and historic Islam, the prohibitions against alcohol, pork, homosexual acts, etc. did not apply to non-Muslims, even in majority-Muslim countries.

If that were the situation here in the United States, so that the Catholic proscription of contraception, abortion, gay acts, etc., applied only to Catholics, I'd say those proscriptions were unenlightened, but I wouldn't be personally upset because they wouldn't apply to me.

I do get upset, and speak out against the Catholic church when it tries to use political and governmental power to constrict my life and destroy my freedoms.

Again, that's not intolerance - it's the natural law right of self defense.

The question is not:

-Are Catholics denied jobs, or housing based on their faith?

-Are Catholics discriminated against in the same way they were as immigrants a century ago?

-Are Catholics in America treated as badly as in a Muslim country?

-If so, HOW?

I believe Pamela's post is on the mark, based on the question asked.

Does discrimination against Catholics still exist in this country today? If so, why?

Her response to the question is that Catholics face ethnic bias rather than outright discrimination. That this is partly because of some confusion between "actions by some Catholics with the church itself", among other examples.

As a Catholic, I agree.

I was an altar boy for six years while attending Catholic school. It was considered a service to the chruch that a boy should be proud of. I was, very much so. I still participated in more secular extra-cirricular activities, but cannot deny that being an altar boy was an important part of my youth.

Today, I find myself hesitant to mention it around a non-Catholic. People who are not Catholic feel perfectly comfortable in snickering, or actually asking if I was a victim of priestly molestation.

It is rude! It offends me. That is/was a large part of who I am, part of the community and culture I was raised in. To flatly ask someone if they were molested by thier priest is apalling. It is incredibly personal. Under no other circumstance could I imagine that being acceptable.

I was, on another occasion, told by a non-Catholic, that Mother Theresa is in hell because she was not "born again"! Completely unsolicited, this person felt perfectly comfortable in telling me this.

On yet another occasion, the same situation, a non-Catholic made sure to let me know that I am an idolitor.

These people are talking about my culture. I grew up in a community where everyone I knew, all my friends and family, were Catholic. Why anyone would assume that they suddenly can throw out all the rules of civility and proper manners because it's just "Catholicism" is beyond me.

As far as the comment about the KKK goes; just because Catholics are not their obvious target does not change the fact that they would not accept a Catholic member. They hate a lot of groups. Not just blacks.

I know I have never been discriminated against in the workplace, or in housing, or lending practices, but that is not what was specifically/exclusively asked in this forum.

As to Pamela's post, I totally agree. There is an ethnic bias toward Catholics, and while this is not oppression, it is nonetheless hurtful and entirely inapproriate. In our Hyper-PC culture I cannot imagine what makes Catholicism the exception.

TOMMY_TSTARS,

I'm glad we agree! There are so many here I don't agree with. Most of them seem to be the panelists, perhaps because I'm naturally antagonistic to "authorities".

[For future reference: my finger slipped and put 3 rrr's in my name when there are only 2 rr's.]

Best wishes to you.

Ms. Taylor wrote:
What does one of the malpractices of the Ottoman Empire have to do with discrimination the Catholics may or may not experience in America??? Talk about straw men...

I believe you are astute enough to know what I'm talking about. Can you honestly tell us if the state based discrimination faced by catholics in Islamic countries is better than the discrimination faced by catholics in the US where atleast the constitution guarantees equal rights for all ?

Norrrie,

I was mentally composing the same statement when I read your comment.

My feelings exactly.

Pamela,

You seem again to be right on the mark in your effort to give meaning to this rather trivial suggested subject.

It was always "No blacks" not "No black Catholics." Even the Klan, which operated under the sign of the Christian cross, was never known to inquire as to the religion of those they were about to beat, hang or burn.

In the U.S., I believe that most anti-Catholic bias did not survive the Second World War and was nearly eliminated from the public consciousness by the election of President Kennedy.

Generalization, however is risky.

There do, however, seem to be other English speaking countries where anti-Catholic sentiments trump ethnic identification.

In the U.S., it will be interesting to see if anti-Morman sentiment arises around the political ambitions of Mitt Romney. There certainly exists well-defined "we-they" attitudes on both sides of the Morman/non-Morman groups in the South West.

Who thought up this laughable question?

Roman Catholics are said to make up 25% of the U.S. population.

Five of the nine members of the U.S. Supreme Court are Catholic.

No group is less likely to be discriminated against than Catholics.

Next time, genius question writers, try Jews, Wiccans, Moslems, and Nonbelievers. Meantime, take a public school course on religion, discrimination, and question writing.

Pamela,

Good point. Actually nowadays, discriminations seems to fall away if you have money, regardless if you are gay, Wiccan, brown, black or a woman.

For the sake of money, people keep their prejudices and bigotry in the closet.

But of course, naturally, as a beige Muslim woman living in a developing country, my instinctive empathy is for those who are discriminated against on reasons of religion, gender, colour or race.

And let us face it, the realities are that, within our own race and religion, there are discriminations - poor against rich, educated against less educated, even the regions one comes from.

From my personal experiences, a rich Muslim have more in common with a rich Christian. They all send their children to the same exclusive boarding schools in UK and Switzerland, look down on their poorer co-religionists and gripe about them in expensive restaurants, polo grounds, race tracks, opera houses. Those idiotic ignorant masses ranting about religion!

Got to go.

Regards Pamela

What does one of the malpractices of the Ottoman Empire have to do with discrimination the Catholics may or may not experience in America??? Talk about straw men...

Anyway, the moderators have asked us to address an additional question, which is if we have ever experienced discrimination based upon our own religious beliefs or practices.

In terms of discrimination getting a job or a loan, no, never. Once in a while, people decide they should say something nasty in the grocery line or as I walk down the street, but that is very rare, and far outweighed by people who take it upon themselves to smile or say something nice. I don't even feel that I've been singled out for extra "random screenings" in the airport.

This goes right back to the whole question of ethnicity. If I were a brown skinned, Arab, Pakistani, Indonesian, Malaysian, what have you, Muslim, I'm sure my experiences would have been very different. But I'm a white skinned, blue eyed blondie, and white priviledge follows you even across the conversion line. It's inescapable.

The day there is a Catholic Pope from the third world (Latin America, Africa, Asia), that is the day the Catholics can claim they are truly non-discriminatory.

In the meantime, all the lectures, purported highter moral grounds espoused by Ross and Concerned on Islam and Muslims are hypocritical and never warrant any decent response.

And yes, we have read Vatican II, including the parts on Muslims and Islam. Very schizo.

Ms. Taylor,

Does "DHIMMITUDE" ring a bell ?