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Hi!

What do you think about love? >:)

Christian Now Liberated states:
GK Chesterton - "All the things your church is doing are very humanitarian. Please consider that this same group of people could do all of those things without professing belief in the supernatural. I think most, of not all, of those good people in your church would be "people of love, justice, mercy, and grace to a broken and hurting world" even without a God to guide them."

There you go being patronizing and all. Yes, to some degree you're right, but many more do it because they're singing, "This is my story. This is my song. Praising my Savior all the day long..."

We are God's people, redeemed by Christ, for the sake of God's creation, not simply a bunch of philanthropic people. Believe me, left to our own devices, we are pretty selfish (especially GK Chesteron.)

GK Chesterton - All the things your church is doing are very humanitarian. Please consider that this same group of people could do all of those things without professing belief in the supernatural.

I think most, of not all, of those good people in your church would be "people of love, justice, mercy, and grace to a broken and hurting world" even without a God to guide them.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:

Professor Wright, Nick, GK, and JST,

"As with most of us, you apparently were bred, born and brainwashed in your religion. I recommend thinking outside the box and inhaling the reality of life.

During your "breathing exercises" consider:

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (physical resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions)."

You forgot to mention your own name in the list of hallucinations.

Honestly, Christian Now Liberated, do you realize how patronizing you are? If I was an atheist, your posts would lead me to become a Christian. So maybe in a strange way, you are actually doing a noble thing. And now that you have included my buddy, Wesley, you have really sealed your demise.

What's really sad is that you haven't rejected Christianity. You have rejected your version of Christianity which I applaud because I don't embrace that version either.

In the meantime, I will continue attending my brainwashed mainline church week after week. The church that recently made it possible for a homeless ministry to get started in our community, the church that hosts a dance for the mentally handicapped in our community, the church that gave a home to an abused teenager, the church that just delivered almost 500 food items to our local community food pantry (all donated by the children of our church!)

And why does this church do things like this? Not because of their post-enlightenment and miracle denying culture, but because every time the pastor offers the benediction at the close of each service, he reminds us that we are called to be God's people of love, justice, mercy, and grace to a broken and hurting world.

Thanks for the tip on inhaling the reality of life. It works!

Professor Wright, Nick, GK, and JST,

As with most of us, you apparently were bred, born and brainwashed in your religion. I recommend thinking outside the box and inhaling the reality of life.

During your "breathing exercises" consider:

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (physical resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

JST, when you say "Try asking him. It has worked for me" I assume you mean ask God.

If so, how did you ask him? How did you know it was God answering? How did you experience the answer (an audible voice? a voice in your head? your heart?)

Thanks

Nick Gill
"Jesus very rarely, and his disciples almost NEVER, speak about an afterlife. Jesus wasn't trying to distract anyone from thinking about the afterlife. He was reorienting their understanding of ENEMY.

They thought Rome, and other pagan kingdoms, were the enemy. They believed the Messiah and the Kingdom of God would defeat and destroy those enemies.

Jesus taught that sin and death were the enemy and that the Messiah and the Kingdom of God would defeat and destroy THOSE enemies.

Also, the fact that the Ptolemaic scientific paradigm rules the minds of the intellectual elite has little bearing on the eschatological paradigm of a first century Jew. Believing Jews lived out of a paradigm fueled by Scripture and hope, not merely philosophical speculation.

The Bible is the story of God reaching for His Creation, not a story about man searching for God."

Well said!

E favorite,
Try asking him. It has worked for me.

Nick, you say, "The Bible is the story of God reaching for His Creation, not a story about man searching for God."

I'm curious, who do you think wrote the Bible - Men or God? If men wrote it (as I think they did) then wouldn't it be a story of men's perception of God reaching for His creation?

If God worte it, how do you know?

Thanks.

Anon (wish you'd choose a name -- there are many anons)

I meant "source" - as in "reference to life/beliefs in those times" (the same way shakepeare's works could be a source to life in elisabethan England) as opposed to "guide" - i.e. - a how-to book, an authoritative rule book.

Jesus very rarely, and his disciples almost NEVER, speak about an afterlife. Jesus wasn't trying to distract anyone from thinking about the afterlife. He was reorienting their understanding of ENEMY.

They thought Rome, and other pagan kingdoms, were the enemy. They believed the Messiah and the Kingdom of God would defeat and destroy those enemies.

Jesus taught that sin and death were the enemy and that the Messiah and the Kingdom of God would defeat and destroy THOSE enemies.

Also, the fact that the Ptolemaic scientific paradigm rules the minds of the intellectual elite has little bearing on the eschatological paradigm of a first century Jew. Believing Jews lived out of a paradigm fueled by Scripture and hope, not merely philosophical speculation.

The Bible is the story of God reaching for His Creation, not a story about man searching for God.

in HIS love,
Nick

E Favorite:
"That is quite a lovely romantic view you have of the Bible, though. Please try to promote that view and get people to stop thinking about the Bible as the final authority. It's a source book, not a guide book, right?"

I was with you until you end by saying that the Bible is a "source book." Now, you're going back to the Bible as primarily a propositional (informational) book. Again, it's a story of God's desire to redeem the world so it's more than a "source book." I don't know. That word, "source" sounds like the last thing we need in our wikapedia over-information world. The authority of the Bible comes from it's story form, albeit rooted in both historical and symbolic language. Fundamentalists will disagree with me but I'm not a fundamentalist. I'm a mainline church kind of guy.

Anon1 - Thanks, regarding "pretzel" remark -- I've noticed it often among people with a good command of language, but a confused mind.

Anon2 - The pretzel remark was not about the Bible, but about NT Wright's essay.

That is quite a lovely romantic view you have of the Bible, though. Please try to promote that view and get people to stop thinking about the Bible as the final authority. It's a source book, not a guide book, right?

Anon:
"I like E FAVORITE'S first comment. It does sound like he's twisting into a pretzel. That's dogma for you."

The bible is in narrative form with an overarching plot (God being faithful to his covenant) and subplots (people being unfaithful in fulfilling their covenant with God.)

So as a story, of course, their will be twists, turns, and a "pretzel like" feeling to life and the meaning of life. Stories have that quality about them so why would we expect dogma to be any different? If you see the bible as a story with many stories inside the big story, then we need to allow for those surprising dimensions. That's why most of great literature has echos of the biblical narrative in their great works.

Mr. Wright, you forgot to mention that Jesus kept trying to direct his follower's attention away from their insistence on talking about an afterlife to focus on the present. He failed.

I like E FAVORITE'S first comment. It does sound like he's twisting into a pretzel. That's dogma for you.

I am reminded of a quote from Albert Einstein:

"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism."
Albert Einstein

E favorite:
"Christians of various denominations - please be kind to each other - you're going to have to spend an eternity in heaven together."

Not heaven, but God's renewed earth. Big difference.

Amen Mr. Baum! Thank you! It was never my intention to make you think I believed differently, perhaps I do not always word things correctly. God is LOVE and Christ is His greatest gift to us. The Bible teaches us that we can never be separated from Gods love. But we can be separated from His presence. This is what I meant. He cannot look on sin...

I am reading so much hate here...It is truly sad.

It is Blasphemy: Almighty God is just that Almighty. But remember Genesis teaches us that God created man in His own likeness. He also gave us the gift of free will. This is why He does not prevent us from making choices, whether right or wrong. He continuously draws us, if we listen, to Himself that we may see ourselves through His eyes and thus see the changes we need to make. It is not by good works we get to Heaven, it is the gift of God-GRACE, meaning unmerited favor. God sees our hearts and what is in them.

Mr. Zeller: Read the language of your passages and ask yourself these question, "what does the world see in me? More importantly, what does God see in me?" "Am I helping Him to build His Kingdom, or am I helping to destroying His Temple?" Your Messiah was clearly portrayed in your Holy Scriptures. He was clearly portrayed in Christ Jesus. Who has hardened your heart? Even Nicodemus, a great leader of his time, could see who Jesus was and Who He came from.

Jesus said, "You will know my people by their love", all you say comes from a heart filled with hate. Is this how God wants you to live-be?

SELAH

HEAVEN and HELL:

"They say of some temporal suffering, 'No future bliss can make up for it,' not knowing that HEAVEN, once attained, will work backwards and turn even that agony into a glory. And of some sinful pleasure they say 'Let me but have this and I'll take the consequences': little dreaming how damnation will spread back and back into their past and contaminate the pleasure of the sin. Both processes begin even before death. The good man's past begins to change so that his forgiven sins and remembered sorrows take on the quality of HEAVEN: the bad man's past already conforms to his badness and is filled only with dreariness. And that is why, at the end of all things . . . the Blessed will say, "We have never lived anywhere except in HEAVEN,' and the Lost, "We were always in HELL.' And both will speak truly."

C S Lewis

THE GREAT DIVORCE

Don:
GKC,

"Where do you get your information that God's realm is not a space within time and history. This sounds like modern physics applied to the heaven / hell concept and I doubt it is delineated in the bible, but only in the most nonspecific allegorical terms.
Again, every reader of the bible from the 4th century on, felt jesus was returning in their liftime based on the apocalyptic theme of the new testament, and they were wrong."

The Christian faith gets this from the doctrine that God "wholly other." Being "wholly other" means that God is not confined to space and time, although God values space and time and this is most evident in God's desire to reclaim all of creation upon the return of Jesus. The doctrine that God is "wholly other" is held in tension with the doctrine that God is also "imminently present" within space and time. You need both of these doctrines to be within the definition of orthodox Christianity.

Regarding your comment about "every reader of the bible from the 4th century on, felt jesus was returning in their liftime based on the apocalyptic theme of the new testament, and they were wrong," I would also add that Christians are called to live on this earth in such a way that anticipates the day when Jesus returns to reclaim all of creation. This leads to the work of the church for peace and justice in our communities and world, as well as ecological concerns, etc.

Just because Jesus didn't return in a particular lifetime of a generation, does not mean that they were wrong to anticipate the 2nd coming of Jesus.

To BGONE:

You seem to applaud confusion (i.e. analogous to those in Romans 1:32, "they not only do evil but applaud those who do it"). What do we make of the cynic who mocks and denies the possibility of affirming any and all truth without recognizing that in that case he best be quiet?

It would be a poorer world without judgement of evil. The work of Christ (and of the church) is to embody the healing and wholeness of God, to counter that which degrades and deprives, that which destroys and finally can only mock at God's way of life and love. In that sense judgement as the decisive final word on evil is good news! For the rest, people have made all sorts of things out of hell, C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, has some pertinent things to say.

Peace,

Ben Wiebe

It is Blasphemy:
It seems to me that your diatribe against almighty God, as you put it, makes you look extrememly JEALOUS because He is getting his way and you are not.

Which to me is what heaven and hell is in the end: God's way of giving you what you want.

GKC,

Where do you get your information that God's realm is not a space within time and history. This sounds like modern physics applied to the heaven / hell concept and I doubt it is delineated in the bible, but only in the most nonspecific allegorical terms.

Again, every reader of the bible from the 4th century on, felt jesus was returning in their liftime based on the apocalyptic theme of the new testament, and they were wrong.

Heaven is often referred to in Christian theology as God's realm that is separated from earth by a very thin space. The Jewish people believed that God's realm was present on earth through the presence of the Temple and the reading of the Torah (Books of the Law.)

God's realm is not a space within time and history but will one day ultimately fill the whole earth when Jesus returns and God will renew all of creation and God's people will receive resurrected bodies.

Jesus was an apocalyptic first century Jew who thought the second coming of the Son of Man (it is not certain he was referring to himself) would occur before the lifetimes of the followers he was speaking to were over. This flaw in his prophetic power unfortunately leads to skepticism concerning many of his prophecies.

The dribble in many of the previous posts is continued evidence that the application of modern thought to the biblical paradigm is frought with absurdity. It is impossible to mix modern reductionist thought with biblical philosophy. The biblical passages must be taken in context to start to have any understanding of what the bible is trying to say.

These are not my concepts but those of Professor Bart D. Ehrman at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
M.Div., Ph.D., Princeton Theological Seminary.

He teaches a wonderful course on the new testament that can be downloaded at:
http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedesclong2.aspx?cid=656&pc=Search.

I personally don't believe there is a location on a universal map where heaven is located because the concept is fraught with contradictions. Because the bible is so vague about the specifics of heaven and hell, and most of these concepts were written when the Ptolemeic system of the universe was the accepted dogma on the subject, has lead theologians to play a game of smoke and mirrors to try to calm the masses about their eventual death.

I hope I am wrong.

There are many concepts in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism that can be integrated into our daily lives to make them richer. I prefer to look for and integrate those positives and try not to be a skeptic. These are tangible and real for me and at the end of each day I can look back at how those positives helped make my life and the people around me incrementally better. That is heaven on earth for me.

Where is the fourth state of Israel?!!!!!!!
-ask Him.

Which wine does the world get drunk on?

What does Jesus mean when he says "they are forever percieving but never understanding".
-ask Him.

Why Does God continually mention anatomy in his message?

Do you really believe that proverbs is just a set of rules to follow?

How often do you say aloud "I seek understanding, I cry out for insight":
- do you understand the the purpose of the numbers?
- do you ask God the purpose of the fantastic stories?

Do you understand that this world is afflicted with spirits.
- and do you think about how specifically spirits affect us.

Do you think God's worthy counselor has a conversation with you?!!!!!!!
- if you do, you might want to read the book of Jerimiah!
- does God's tone in the Bible match this voice's tone?
- do you laugh along with its clever wit?

Do You assume a seat in the Great Hall? (Proverbs)

Do you soley rely on man's interpretations in the commentaries at the bottom of the Bible?!!!!!!!

**************************************************
Lastly, with regards to spirits, if you are overcome with emotion and confounded with an endless maze of questions;

- REMEMBER His words:

- "I did not give you a spirit of fear".

Almighty God and almighty God alone shall decide. Whatever almighty God wants almighty God will get. To say that almighty God does not want people to do whatever it is people do whenever they do it is blasphemy. If God didn't want it then people could not do it, by the definition of almighty God.

The above is so unless almighty God wants people in hell. The results of doing what almighty God allows but does not want is hell. Therefore at just one level deep in the logic we come right back to almighty God getting what almighty God wants. In the second level that's a pit of fire full of people.

Since almighty God gets everything almighty God wants we can say that whatever happens almighty God must want else it can't happen. So the following must be the case:

1. The God advertised as almighty is not almighty
2. Any God that wants people in hell is devil by definition of devil. So that fellow here who says Moses made a deal with the devil is on target. Devil is not almighty by definition else he would be God.

Is there a psychiatrist in the house?

Christians of various denominations - please be kind to each other - you're going to have to spend an eternity in heaven together.

Harold Zeller states: "You so called christians and catholics are Mindless, Godless, Heartless, Soulless, DOGS"

Actually, Catholics come under the larger category of christian.

To Beth: Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews said, "My Kingdom is not of this world". To Rvalade: Hell is real but Jesus won the keys to hell, also the keys to spiritual death, which He will use in due time, don't underestimate the mercy of God, God did not ask us to be better or more forgiving than Him, everybody will be in the Kingdom, don't forget about the mysterious Plan of God. Actually what Jesus taught us is so simple, yet so hard that we totally miss what He taught at times. Hell is not seperation from God, that is spiritual death, hell is going to God and experiencing all of your wrongdoing, unforgiveness and judgementalism in the light of Pure Love rather than being embraced by it but don't worry it only lasts for eternity and eternity ends on the morning of the seventh day of course you won't know that, you see Jesus really did try to teach us hard heads. Repenting means being sorry, not trying to con God, God is so much nicer than you would probably ever think that He is by listening to what a lot of people that call themselves christians say. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

E FAVORITE, we must put our faith in ministers. They have studied the sacred scriptures and know what they say. The sacred scriptures are beyond common bundles to read and understand themselves.

So yes, "N. T. Wright is: the Right Here On Earth Concrete Answers Guy" for the common bundles,, with ______ for brains.

Inculcating--or allowing religious figures to inculcate--a fear of hell in their children is also the cruelest form of psychological control that parents can practice.

I say that as an adult who, as a young child, was threatened with a deep, hot, and eternal hell by my Roman Catholic mother and by the nuns teaching in the Catholic schools to which she insisted that I be sent. My mother's fear, in turn, was that my non-Catholic father was also destined for that hell, and I was told to pray for his conversion to Catholicism. (That never happened, of course; he was religiously indifferent, and never knew what hell I was being put through.)

I threw over religion--Catholicism and all the rest--when I reached adulthood, but that experience has left me with psychological scars that even as a man in my 60s I still bear.

I have returned to religious faith--not Catholicism, though--in recent years. Fear of hellish punishment and hope of heavenly bliss is not part of that, however. I would prefer to try to be at peace with God without either of these human inventions--heaven and hell--being part of the equations. In my faith, I simply try to trust God's loving assurance that, in ways I as a human being cannot fathom, all will be well.

Parents and other authority-figures who try to maintain their authority by promising heaven and threatening hell are committing child abuse. They are also pushing their children into atheism.

Please take note, Mr. Cal Thomas.

MYSTIC, "believe it exists to experience it" does not apply to many things, global warming for example. Presently it's raining on believers and disbelievers alike in that great faith of Texas home of the biggest cross in America bar none. What's else besides hell do you expect to avoid by not believing?

Knowledge is still superior to faith?

So Beth, you say "N.T. Wright is: the Right Here On Earth Concrete Answers Guy."

If you read through the subsequent comments, he seems to be the "Whatever it means to you Guy"

My, I am blown away by how creative people can be when they so desperately desire meaning and authority in their lives.
Ah, the Bible, so important that a God part equal to the Savior, Jesus the Christ, and the Father, creator of everything, was created with a job of insuring the good book was correct and without error! Must be somewhat lazy however, as the book is full of contradictions, had to have major rewrites because there were too many conflicting versions, and no one can seem to decide what the proper translations should and which of the various language versions is the base version.

As to Heaven and Hell, you would think that Christians would have this pretty explicitly defined..after all everything is done to achieve the former and avoid the latter! In fact the fundamental affirmation of the Catholic Church is to declare the beleif in Heaven and Hell along with belief one should do this to minimize the pain of God, not for one's own benefit!

All I have heard is the heartfelt belief that Heaven will not have the pain of this Earthly life and that some sort of unthinking Bliss will be felt for eternity...because you are in the presense of God; therefore Hell is someplace where you are not in the presense of the omni-present God!

This may easily be effective for the poor; but the wealthy? That is probably why the church mostly has the poor and those who get weathy and powerful by Fleecing the poor in their "Flocks".

I found it useless to explain death, God, and the spirit to a 3 year old. Well, it is equally useless to teach heaven, hell, and spiritual concepts to any young soul (ex. Patrick). So to explain complex spiritual and philosphical concepts to one who is not mentally, spiritually, emotionally ready to learn is wasted effort. Sometimes its best to let the sceptics blow their hot air, because proof and wisdom come from experience. You must believe it exist, before you can experience it.

PATRICK:

You're probably confused by the notion that faith is in God. It's not. Faith is in hell. Hell is a gold mine operated successfully to bring the riches of earth to those best at convincing people they have the formula for avoiding hell. The avoidance of hell is commonly known as ***saved. That would be saved from Eater, a monster devil demon that eats sinners.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul is the best interpretation of the Bible ever. It shows what is going on in the mind of the authors of the Bible and the operators of all religions summed by "the big bucks go to those who lead the multitudes to hell." The shepherd appears to be taking care of the sheep when in reality he's leading them to the slaughter, turning them into lamb chops. The religious see their ministers the way the sheep see their herders, where they're being led is to hell. All faith is in ministers, Moses/Jesus imitators.

PATRICK:

Try http://www.hoax-buster.org if you want proof that heaven and hell exist. They're both there in pictures.

Hell is a critter, Eater is ***her name. After Satan had determined that the dead individual is a sinner Eater eats all gone to stay gone forever and ever. That picture is over 3,000 years old.

There's two pictures of heaven. The first is a place, another ***flat earth like this one that is beneath this earth. The other picture of heaven is on the same 3,000+ year old picture. It shows ***Trinity God with Jesus seated at the right hand of father god, (the sun, arguably a hole as in holy god) and seated at the right hand of Jesus are the 12 Apostles.

Everything has a history. Heaven and hell have histories that go back to the first crook that realized people can be herded like sheep with threats of hell. Heaven is a natural normal part of the human psyche. See your psychiatrist for details.

What is Hell? Hell is the complete isolation of oneself from God, friends, family, love-ones, people, and other living things. The complete isolation is derived from falling deeper and deeper into egoistic devotions. Killers think of only their feelings when they kill. Theives only think of the profits they get. Males who sleep around only think of their satisfaction causing hurt and suffering to others.

Since God is the All, we are a part of God, and God is a part of us, a crime against someone, is a crime against God and oneself. Karma sounds familiar. Repeated acts of selfishness only accumulates the punishment and isolation of the individual until the soul is so tormented is becomes isolated from God and the spirit.

Nothing but BS. Everything functions in cycles in nature and so in heaven, so as there was a creation, so will their be a distruction, and a re-creation. Suns form, they die, and they re-form. Humans live-die-and are reborn.

A simple question is: if God is perfect, and we are not, then how can God permit us to join him with our imperfections. A step higher in think: if I am concious of my existance, and I am concious of that I am a distinct entity from God; knowing I am not God, then how can I return to be with God if my conciousness itself separates us. To early Jews and Christians, God is the all. It is everything and everywhere. To limit, define, and reduce god to "something" was to minimize God. The fall from Heaven occurred with Adam and Eve became conscious of themselves as distint individuals. The fact is they distinguished themselves from God. As long as ones will is focused on oneself and not on the universal God and Common good of all, then we are not worthy of heaven.

Yes, one day the larger cycle (creation) will come to its end. Those who will is in communion with God (these persons will is that of God) will live permanently as a part of God, and those whose wills are still focused on themselves (egoistic in nature) will have the individuality striped and recycled, while the (unconscious) part pertaining to God will return.

A simple question: If God asked you today if you wished to go to heaven, would you say yes? If you say yes, then you are not worthy of going to heaven because you are only thinking of yourself. The correct answer would be: "no, not until all my friends, family, and love-ones are ready to go too." In egyptian folklore, it often said the first in line to heaven would be the last to enter. The reason being, the first would wait until all others have gone to heaven, before they would want to enter themselves. This is a noble heart worthy of heaven.

Frank Collins,

No, the Episcopal Church is not about to die. You fundamentalist pigs really hate the idea of an inclusive church, don't you? Just remember that the idea of fellowship with Gentiles was shocking to many of Jesus' and Paul's contemporaries. Maybe you could learn something about the Bible from Bishop Wright. You fundamentalist pigs have been betraying Jesus' message for too long and it's time for you to learn about the Kingdom of God.

Harold A Zeller is a scary man, and should be fired for wasting so much time at work (assuming of course he is at work, which I sincerely hope he is not).

As far as the Heaven/Hell debate. It is impossible to say. This is by design.

There is only God, and faith. I don't know why God puts such an emphasis on faith - however I think it is to prepare you for what's comes next: faith here on Earth being fundemental you us as humans to be able to make the transition to God's presence.

I surmise that if you aren't able to have faith here on Earth, to truly embrace the unknowable (some would say unprovable), then you simply will not be able to make the intellectual(?) leap/transition/whatever to recognize God when the time comes to do so. The ramifications of this failure? I think what we refer to as Hell. Success? What we refer to as Heaven.

Oh well, who knows. Maybe you get several chances. If God loves us so much, do you think he would condemn us for getting it worng the first time... that is, for being human?

You decide.

All opinions. No one knows or can prove that the biblilcal Heaven or Hell even exist, other than to use their potential as a motivator to modify human behavior, which can be accomplisehd withpout misleading people about their future as no one possesses the ability to foresee the future even a moment.

I believe heaven and hell exist within our own lives and environments, and are revealed in our own environment; home, office, friends, enemies, etc.

Heaven or hell are not something to be afraid of or to look forward to, similar to the Buddhist teaching of the Pure Land Teachings, but just realities of daily life, and no more.

Anyone with actual proof of the existance of Heaven or Hell, not biblical proof, please speak up.

It is just as Buddhism teaches Actual Proof is the most important.

Mr. Baum:

WELL SAID, I DO CONCUR. As I do with most of what Mr. Wright has to say...I would need to really give it more thought...Very knowledgeable, this is obvious to anyone who knows God's Word of which I have barely skimmed the surface, though I have been teaching it for many years. I think it is too complex for some people, those who are closed minded, to understand. E Favorite says the Bible says nothing concrete....Child of God, when you open your eyes and ask Him to help you see, the Bible is VERY concrete!

Heaven & Hell ARE real places. God is very clear! Heaven is where we, believers, the saved, will spend eternity WITH God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost and ALL the Saints. Hell is for those poor souls who did not, for whatever reason, accept the gift of God, given in Grace-unmerited favor-which we did no, nor do not, nor could not deserve, and thus, will have eternity to consider why they were seperated from God. HELL is the ultimate separation from God and it is our choice to go there...or not.

To Concerned...YIKES! You are a scary individual who makes very little sense....

Dearly beloved, look at Isaiah 59:21. "So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever."

Now Look at 2 Samuel 23, "Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said, The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain." Do you see "The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue." In the "Psalms" it is spoken, "For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever. The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment. The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide." Do you see "and his tongue talketh of judgment" and what did David say, "The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue." Next, "forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever:" Now what did Moses say, "And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words. The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be." Who are the perserved saints, "he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them." David said, "none of his steps shall slide" what did Moses say, "and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words" "a lawgiver from between his feet" Who is the lawgiver, "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah" Now look qat the vision of David, "Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people. I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: With whom MY HAND shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him." Does not it say, "With whom MY HAND shall be established" The Right Hand of the LORD is upon David. David said, "I looked on my right hand, and beheld, but there was no man that would know me: refuge failed me; no man cared for my soul." He said "no man that would know me" nobody knew the Hand of the Lord was his right hand. David said, "Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O Lord God of truth." Now lookm at "Into thine hand I commit my spirit" and what was his spirit, Do you see "and his tongue talketh of judgment" and what did David say, "The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue."
David said, "Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked." I have the eyes of the LORD, "He shall reward evil unto mine enemies: cut them off in thy truth." And what was the judgment David spoke of, "Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling." Do you see "Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them" and what did Jesus sayThen came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice" Do you see "Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed"

It is clear in the Psalms, “Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate. The Lord redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.” Jews serve GOD, The Lord redeemeth the soul of his servants, and sinners creatures serve their “gods” the devil and satan, who destroy the body and soul.

The Hand of God wrote in the Psalm, "Like as a lion that is greedy of his prey, and as it were a young lion lurking in secret places. Arise, O Lord, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:"
And, "Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns." Pharaoh has his cross, the sphinx, the face of man the body of a dog. This is the father of the christian faith. this is his son, the son of man cain, this is your spirit, the beast. Hebrews have there fathers, the Rightous one, the Holy one, the Chosen one.

Look at what you believe,
This is your father Jesus Christ, pharaoh
"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

These are the words of the son, son of man, Cain, Jesus
"Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you."

These are the words of your spirit, the serpent
"This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever."

Now to "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." You will dwell in the belly of the beast in hell.

And you say you have knowledge. what is in your heart, the words that come out of your mouth. You are nothing more than a blood thirsty lust filled canniable. "Ye that love the Lord, hate evil:"

Now to
Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the Lord.
Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters. And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the Lord did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt. And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the Lord's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the Lord brought thee out of Egypt." Do you see, "And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the Lord's law may be in thy mouth" You said "Do the Jews have God's Spirit and the Word of God in their mouth"
Moses taught God’s words, “Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments” “for this is your wisdom and your understanding” Apparently He has not done this so for the so-called Christian and Catholic ministries as they are not a house of the LORD. Paul wrote, “From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;” So many so-called Christian pastors teach wisdom comes from the words of Jesus but are they more knowledgeable than Moses and it is the LORD who puts “wisdom and understanding to know how to work all manner of work for the service of the sanctuary, according to all that the LORD had commanded.”

Now look at the words of Moses, "But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."

David said, "Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked."
And it is written "For he hath delivered me out of all trouble: and mine eye hath seen his desire upon mine enemies." “Evil shall slay the wicked" "Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them" “The Lord is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.”

Harold, I couldn't make any sense out of your post. Could you break it into bite-size chucks? I have the short attention span of a child of the television age.

To the jesus lovers, the unbeliever, the unfaithful, the unforgiven. Look what is written in Ecclesiastes 3, "I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" Read below.

"For that which befalleth the sons of man befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other"

It is written in Genesis, “And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth from thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;” Do you see “Thou shalt not eat of it”, the sinner gentiles were fed with their own flesh and blood as sweet wine. No one who stands behind the pulpit in the churches of the gentiles has taught the Psalms and the words from the prophets as I have. They are hypocrites like the god they worship and destroyeth their neighbor. Solomon said, “An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.” In Job it is written, “For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul.” Rabbi’s have knowledge, “When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;”

Do you understand “Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth from thee”. Do you know what the thorns are, the sons of Man. It is said by David, “But the sons of Belial shall be all of them as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands: But the man that shall touch them must be fenced with iron and the staff of a spear; and they shall be utterly burned with fire in the same place.” “the sons of Belial shall be all of them as thorns”, this is the sons of Man, Adam is Belial, the devil. It is written in Samuel, “Now the sons of Eli were sons of Belial; they knew not the LORD.” “Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth from thee” come from Adam who know not the LORD, “the sons of Belial shall be all of them as thorns”, the children of God comes forth from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Israel is His son, “And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son.”

“And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you. And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this? Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you. And it came to pass, when the angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept.” It is clearly said of the sons of man, the children of the devil Belial, that they are the thorns, “they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you”.

Now to the words of Paul, “For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise” Who is the fool, one that rejects wisdom and understanding, His statutes and judgments. How are thee wise. Jesus said, “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.” This is how thee are wise, “be ye therefore wise as serpents.” Those of the so-called Christian and Catholic are like serpents. What do I mean. Was it not the serpent, “was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.” Did he not beguile Eve to eat of the tree of good and evil. Did not he say, “And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Does not Jesus say, “This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” How much different is “Ye shall not surely die” to “he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever”. Are not you his sheep, beasts, and wise as serpents. Did not I prove to you Jesus, the beast, was a hypocrite. Did not he accuse the Jews as being hypocrites, but it is he that is the hypocrite. Solomon said, “An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.” In Job it is written, “For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul.” Look at, “though he hath gained”, your gain is eternal life but in hell beneath his feet. Those of the so-called Christian and Catholic faith have become soulless, “when God taketh away his soul.” Isaiah wrote the LORD said, “I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine”

Who is the strength of Israel? Here is the answer, follow me. 1Samuel 15, "And Samuel said unto him, The Lord hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou. And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent."

Do you see, "the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man" The strength of Israel is Sarah, woman, "for he is not a man." In Genesis it is written "But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife." Do you see "for she is a man's wife" this is woman. She is Man's helper.
"Psalmms" 135 "Thy name, O Lord, endureth for ever; and thy memorial, O Lord, throughout all generations. For the Lord will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants." didn't you see, "that he should repent." "he will repent himself concerning his servants." Man serves G'D and Woman serves Man, she is his strength and helper.

In Genesis it is written "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Do you see, "it shall bruise thy head", the Head of WOMAN IS BRUSIED, Man's. Look at in Job, "So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown." Now look at "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Do you see "whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil" What does the "Psalms say, "Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace." Do you not see, "that man was perfect and upright" and David wrote "Mark the perfect man"

Now to "thou shalt bruise his heel." Woman will bruise the serpent's heel. Now look at "And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau. And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them." "and his hand took hold on Esau's heel", "thou shalt bruise his heel." Woman will bruise the serpent's heel. Easu is the coming of the serpent, satan. The perfect man is Jacob. Israel is BORN of the perfect Man and Woman. NOW LOOK AT "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman" Look what is written in Ecclesiastes 3, "I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"

Look what is written in Genesis, “And Esau said, I have enough, my brother; keep that thou hast unto thyself. And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.” Do you not see “for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God” Look at a prayer of Jacob, “And Jacob said, O God of my father Abraham, and God of my father Isaac, the Lord which saidst unto me, Return unto thy country, and to thy kindred, and I will deal well with thee: I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies, and of all the truth, which thou hast shewed unto thy servant; for with my staff I passed over this Jordan; and now I am become two bands. Deliver me, I pray thee, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau: for I fear him, lest he will come and smite me, and the mother with the children.” Does not it say “Deliver me, I pray thee, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau” Now to “And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above; And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck.” Do you not see” And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother”. GOD brought the sword of Esau, your “god”, to destroy the gentiles.

Now to “But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. And Pharaoh said unto him, Get thee from me, take heed to thyself, see my face no more; for in that day thou seest my face thou shalt die. And Moses said, Thou hast spoken well, I will see thy face again no more.” Do you not see “for in that day thou seest my face thou shalt die” Paul wrote, “For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” In Revelation it is written, “And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.” Do you not see, “and the third beast had a face as a man” It is written in Deuteronomy 1 “Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.” Do you not see, “ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's” And what is GOD”S judgment when you appear before your father and “god” Pharaoh, “for in that day thou seest my face thou shalt die” This is the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. You will be glorified. It is written, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” Do you not see, “the beginning and the ending” Have you no knowledge “And the first beast was like a lion” “and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle” Did not Peter write, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:”
Your "god", Jesus Christ, pharaoh. “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending” “your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:”

You so called christians and catholics are Mindless, Godless, Heartless, Soulless, DOGS

The "resurrection" of the dead is a poor man's version of "worlds without end." The original theory, (yes theory) said that man passes on to a new world, in body where another life is lived and that scheme of things never ends.

The ancient Egyptians are not the only ones to come up with eternal lives/worlds but are unique in formalizing it, so far. Heaven as it is understood today is the result of two things, discovering the world is round and Amenophis IV insisting that she would live eternity, her infinite set of temporary lives here on earth.

Revelation addresses the issue of Jesus coming again, Amenophis IV with here eternal lives here. It got that screwed by failing to realize all life is temporary, says everyone lives forever. That cheap version of the original says the dead are stopped in the first next world, in body and do not die there and go on to other worlds. The Nether world as it is called, actually the first of an infinite set of worlds was presumed to be a flat earth that lies beneath this flat earth with other flat earths beneath it. Round earth shows that to be nonsense.

When the world was proved round eliminating the possibility of more "flat earths" beneath this one rather than admit the theory was false it has been explained by saying dead people's spirits go to an invisible holding cell, heaven to await the return of Jesus. At that time they will be reunited with their old bodies and return to this earth, standing room only.

The correct version of the original theory is at http://www.hoax-buster.org It allows us to locate hell of the second type, a place where dead enemies are discarded. Hell has a history of it's very own and was born and bred in larceny.

As one who knows the history of heaven and hell what these holy rollers write about it brings the usual smile :) Hell is terror max invented for the sole purpose of terrorizing.

Wright quotes from Philippians (but as always Wright leaves out all requests from Paul to be separated from the body that God created)

Paul wrote '22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

There is no 'wider context' to suggest that leaving the body and being with Christ was a 'temporary state'

WRIGHT
'but Jesus coming -- or 'reappearing', as 1 John 3 and Colossians 3 put it...'

Where do they put it as 'reappearing'? Which Greek word for 'reappearing' is in those chapters?

The Greek word in Colossians 3:4 'phaneroo' means 'appear' not 're-appear'.

The verse reads 'When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.'

Neither use of 'phaneroo' means 're-appear', despite what Wright claims.

I find E Favorite's exhortation to Bishop Wright quite ironic: "Look around you. Heaven and hell are right here on earth." Did Ms. or Mr. Favorite not notice, in reading the article, that the majority of the Bishop's attention is given to God's plans for a new creation that is precisely "right here on earth", and that this Biblical vision (as distinct from the non-Biblical one of being rescued out of the world with its problems) directly addresses all kinds of "concrete answers" demanded by contemporary issues? That's who N.T. Wright is: the Right Here On Earth Concrete Answers Guy.

Some beliefs by religious scholars who have studied the situation: (besides the ones already articulated by the On Faith panelists who have addresse the question today).

Professor JD Crossan (an On Faith panelist) does not believe in an afterlife as noted in his book, Who is Jesus? He may have changed his mind as he progresses in years.

Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary Catholic theologian, has a different take on hell. He reasons that the Singularity does not tolerate imperfection in his spiritual realm. Therefore, any soul dying in mortal sin will simply disappear since hell the imperfect state does not exist.

Aquinas concluded that Heaven is a spirit state i.e. no bodies to include glorified bodies. From that one might conclude there were no bodily Resurrection of Jesus, no Ascension and no Assumption.

Other points of interest: Angels and devils (those demons of the demented)

Joe Smith had his Moroni.

Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tinker bell" got around).

Jesus and his family had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented.

The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.

Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these "pretty wingie talking thingies" to the myth pile. We should do the same to include deleting all references to them in our religious operating manuals. Doing this will eliminate the prophet/profit/prophecy status of these founders and put them where they belong as simple humans just like the rest of us.

Personnally, fear of punishment has it rewards so I CMAFH (Cover My A__ with Fear and Hope).

You are right neither is the final destination, I also look past heaven, to the new heavens and the new earth, exactly what it will be, I do not know but it will be a Kingdom of Love, since God is Pure Love. Hell is real, very much so and I say that as a fact because I have experienced it and our Brother Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews also went to hell and I believe He also went to spiritual death, I know that I have experienced both hell and spiritual death. Jesus won the keys to both hell and spiritual death and in due time the keys will be used. God sends no one to hell, you build it yourself and if you end up in hell you will know that you have no one to blame but yourself. God's Plan is for all of His children to be with him in the Kingdom and they will be. God is a searcher of hearts and minds not religious affiliations or lack thereof. satan's theowannabeocracy will even appear to be the winner in the great tribulation coming upon the whole earth but like our brother Jesus said the prince of this world has been judged and Jesus also said I have overcome the world, My Kingdom is not of this world. Be ready. God wins Total Victory, a tie is totally and utterly unacceptable. Take Care, Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

One of the reasons I appreciate Dr. Wright's scholarship is that he wants the Christian community to reclaim the Bible as the epic story of God's mighty acts of salvation. Many Christians attempt to turn the Bible into a series of propositions, robbing the Bible of the rich story that it is. As a historian and bible exegete, he is also in the unique position to help the modern day church reclaim it's orthodox heritage (it's not that what Dr. Wright is saying is new, although many of the posts on forums like these seem to suggest people think it is new.)

The story of the Bible is in search of an ending. We are to continue to live out this story, praying and working for the day when all of God's creation will finally be renewed. Of course, the story reached it's climax with the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus.

What does anything you’ve said mean? Why do people twist themselves into pretzels trying to give a definitive explanation on what the Bible is trying to say on any topic? It’s an interesting intellectual exercise, but it doesn’t provide concrete answers – just food for thought.

Look around you. Heaven and hell are right here on earth.