Balancing Material Comforts and Spiritual Values

The Emptiness of Theology

by Richard Dawkins

A dismally unctuous editorial in the British newspaper The Independent recently asked for a reconciliation between science and "theology." It remarked that "People want to know as much as possible about about their origins." I certainly hope they do, but what on earth makes one think that theology has anything useful to say on the subject?

Science is responsible for the following knowledge about our origins. We know approximately when the universe began and why it is largely hydrogen. We know why stars form and what happens in their interiors to convert hydrogen to the other elements and hence give birth to chemistry in a world of physics. We know the fundamental principles of how a world of chemistry can become biology through the arising of self replicating molecules. We know how the principal of self replication gives rise, through Darwinian selection, to all life, including humans.

It is science and science alone that has given us this knowledge and given it, moreover, in fascinating, over-whelming, mutually confirming detail. On every one of these questions theology has held a view that has conclusively been proved wrong.

Science has eradicated smallpox, can immunize against most previously deadly viruses, can kill most previously deadly bacteria.
Theology has done nothing but talk of pestilence as the wages of sin. Science can predict when a particular comet will reappear and, to the second, when the next eclipse will appear. Science has put men on the moon and hurtled reconnaissance rockets around Saturn and Jupiter. Science can tell you the age of a particular fossil and that the Turin Shroud is a medieval fake. Science knows the precise DNA instructions of several viruses and will, in the lifetime of many present readers, do the same for the human genome.
What has theology ever said that is of the smallest use to anybody? When has theology ever said anything that is demonstrably true and is not obvious? I have listened to theologians, read them, debated against them; I have never heard any of them say anything of the smallest use; anything that was not either platitudinously obvious or downright false. If all the achievements of scientists were wiped out tomorrow, there would be no doctors but witch doctors, no transport faster than horses, no computers, no printed books, no agriculture beyond subsistence peasant farming. If all the achievements of theologians were wiped out tomorrow, would anyone notice the smallest difference? The achievements of theologians don't do anything, don't effect anything, don't mean anything. What makes anyone think that "theology" is a subject at all?

"The Emptiness of Theology" by Richard Dawkins published in "Free Inquiry" Spring 1998.

Ghostbuster, Ghostbuster, Ghoster,

My job you ask? I work as a Beacon of Rationale and Reality Thumping the Better Word to All in Need and all in Synoptic Form!!!

CCNL,

Somthing I've always wondered, for at least the past three days anyways. Don't you have a job or something?

GB

Brother Otterson:

Enjoyed your comments - thanks for continuing to post here.

Hmmm, rich Mormons via LDS holdings??

The Huntsmans and also the Romneys. And what is the prophet's salary?? And Otterson's?? BYU football coach's salary??

Hmmm, some other rich Mormons with LDS money as part of their portfolios??

nytimes.com/2007/04/06/us/politics/06romney.html?hp

"To fill them, Mr. Romney turned in part to connections in the tight-knit world of wealthy fellow members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Of the roughly 450 people who have given the $5,000 maximum allowed annually to his federal political action committee, about a quarter are from Utah, the center of the Mormon church. And of his top eight donors, four — J. Willard Marriott Jr. and his brother, Richard Marriott, the hotel executives; Jon M. Huntsman Sr., the plastics mogul; and L. E. Simmons, the software chief executive — are Mormons who each gave more than $100,000, according to data compiled by the National Institute on Money in State Politics.

In addition, Mr. Romney tapped many of the financiers with whom he used to make deals as Bain Capital’s founder. More than 70 of the donors who contributed the maximum to his federal political action committee came from the investment business. They included several top executives of Bain and the giant buyout firms HM Capital Partners; Thomas H. Lee; Kohlberg Kravis Roberts and Co.; and The Blackstone Group. Stephen A. Schwarzman, Blackstone’s billionaire co-founder, gave about $50,000 to Mr. Romney’s various funds.

His biggest PAC donor, Peter Karmanos Jr., the chairman of Compuware, said he is both a family friend and a business connection, according to a company spokesman, who declined to elaborate. Mr. Romney’s brother, G. Scott Romney, sits on the Compuware board, and Mr. Karmanos gave about $250,000 to Mr. Romney’s committees.

Beginning in 2002, Mr. Romney also steadily climbed the fund-raising ladder of the Republican Governors Association, becoming its chairman in 2006 and impressing some of the major conservative donors he met through the association, according to Mr. Kaufman.

For example, Mr. Romney and Mr. Zwick, the campaign fund-raising director, visited with Bob J. Perry, the Texas homebuilder who was one of President Bush’s top supporters, a little less than two years ago.

“He asked in that first meeting, ‘Mitt, are you going to run for president?’ ” Mr. Zwick recalled.

Mr. Perry eventually gave $2.05 million to the governors’ association and more than $100,000 to Mr. Romney’s political action committees. Mr. Perry was impressed that Mr. Romney was “a strong leader and not a career politician,” said Anthony Holm, his spokesman."

Roy,

It is possible that your feeling of dis-ease about the wealth of the LDS church stems from a misconception about how the LDS Church is run. No one in the church is paid for their service. It is all voluntary. No one within the LDS church getting wealthy from Church holdings.

Now then, if the Church gave away every last cent tomorrow to the poor of the world, it would no longer be able to perform service for the poor in the future. It would be killing the goose that laid the golden egg. The Church wisely invests so that it can continue to build church buildings, temples, and fund its huge humanitarian aid programs.

Mormonism defined:

A business cult based on Joseph Smith's hallucinations which has bought respectability with a $30 billion business empire, the BYU "mission matured" football team and a great choir and where religion is used as a front and charitable donations and volunteer work are used to advertise said business.

And then there was the greedy and gay Moroni e.g. he had to have gold plates whereas the poor Jews had to deal with plain stone. Or was that Mormon, Moroni's father with the gold plates???

to all posters of this blog:

please do yourself a favor and ignore CTCNL (concerned the christian now liberated). he is a troll and an annoyance - has nothing but negative things to say and blogs incessantly on incorrect facts and opinion. his posts are a waste of time to read and are pure gibberish. i am still confused as to why people give him the time of day. it's very easy folks - if you ignore someone enough, they may just go away

LDS Mark,

Hmmm, do I need to sign a contract before receiving LDS aid? Something like becoming a Mormon and paying my 10% income tax when I am no longer a charity case? Do I need to buy my insurance from Beneficial Life? My cloths from ZCMI? Listen to only Bonneville International radio and TV stations? And eat only food from Mormon ranches and canneries?

Hmmm, our definition of Mormonism stands:

A business cult based on Joseph Smith's hallucinations which has bought respectability with a $30 billion business empire, the BYU "mission matured" football team and a great choir and where religion is used as a front and charitable donations and volunteer work are used to advertise said business.

CTCNL's blather is not unexpected.

However, how CTCNL can ignore the MASSIVE and UNBIASED good works of an orginization such as the LDS church, I'll never understand.

CTCNL, if you are ever is in need of charity, come to the LDS church, and you will get it, even with all your blathering.

mark

Parker has some good points.

mark

Mr. Otterson, I agree with your post. We all would like to live comfortable lives but sometimes in the pursuit of comfort, we compromise and break all the commandements to gain what we believe we should have which again is a covetous, idolalic heart which only produces pain, heartbreak and in the end: eternal separation from the God. We have to continually seek truth and love people as we love ourselves. Also, I'd have to say: The bible does say, seek first the kingdom of God and all things will be given to you but it is in God's will, not in ours.

How entertaining for the spokesman of the richest Chruch, per capita, in the world with extensive land investments and a mind boggling stock portfolio; to pontificate about "the love of silver"

I like it when representative of the Church of Latter Day Saints knock on my door. I invite them in for coffee as sort of an amends of my days as a rebel without cause. Back in the day, I would offer them beer to get rid of them. I know that I am in for an interesting conversation on theology if we sit down at my kitchen table usually stacked with religious and spiritual literature for morning meditations.

I was not sure where to put this observation coming from outside the Beltway Bubble today, I would hope if finds a home here with you.

Some people in life are very healthy indeed, what a blessing that is to be cherished. I could not imagine a bathroom without some sort of chemical for disease, chronic condition or an ill circulating society in general. And yet I know that there are people out there without any chemicals in their life and nevermind chemical addictions for the moment.

You see, very recently I have experienced some very well meaning but unqualified people giving medical advice online. A young man suffering in a common chatroom of the internet was advised to seek spirituality and stop taking his meds. I jumped in and spoke up because I know certain people are a danger to themselves and society without chemical intervention. I advised the young man to practice spirituality through some sort of community while taking meds as directed by a Physcian.

The material world does offer remedies for disease as well as all kinds of stimulates for pleasure. And these synthetic or natural substances can be abused seeking more pleasure by demands of ego or maybe in a quest for Communinion with the Creator, certain substances have been known to be used as part of the ritual. Alcohol itself is known as a social lubricant, maybe a plus when joining social communities ?

However, some people need to stay away from addictive substances while others need to stick to their medication in my world. A better living through chemistry, you make the call.

Back to Reality 101-

Mormonism-

A business cult based on Joseph Smith's hallucinations which has bought respectability with a $30 billion business empire, the BYU "mission matured" football team and a great choir and where religion is used as a front and charitable donations and volunteer work are used to advertise said business.

I really enjoyed Brother Otterson's spot-on essay. I hope it may be read by many people.

The "resident tabloid journalist" came by, I see. 'Reminded me of a comment by a close friend who is familiar with the work ethic of LDS youth as compared with the work ethic of youth back East as described by a friend of his who told him how he admired such a culture in which youth learn to work responsibly and to have ethical behavior. 'Funny thing that some people take issue with a culture that encourages giving away some of what you earn, because they assume everyone is just as selfish as they are personally and that motives cannot possibly be altruistic. What a narrow and pessimistic view of the world!

Some of us view the world as a place that offers hope and growth that are unprecedented, through help that is given amidst many disasters, through the micro-credit programs that are beacons of light (would that more fathers rather than mostly mothers were availing themselves of these), through educational opportunities in many countries that are significant, and through the expansion of freedoms among people in many lands.

'No need to be pessimistic about a church that seeks to bless those in need where possible and that conserves resources wisely and ethically, teaching people to prepare for the uncertainty of the future by getting out of debt, storing food and water, staying educated, and knowing calmly that "if ye are prepared ye shall not fear."

Greed manifests from the ultimately illusory ego self which continually seeks to attach itself to “things” and “others”. Humans have suffered from both the internal and external consequences of egocentric thoughts and acts for millennia. If more people could realize the interdependent nature of all life and things in the universe (Thich Nhat Hanh calls it “interbeing”), and overcome the illusory independent self, then many of the world’s egocentric caused problems would cease.

Did the evolution of our species allow us to create vivid conceptual images of the past, present and future as a survival technique in a world with bigger, stronger competition? Is not the knowledge of good and evil a manner by which intelligent, self-aware beings conceptualize their apparent reality? Humans conceptualize their surroundings and phenomena in almost every moment of consciousness. Another necessary strategy for survival is the ability to distinguish one’s self from other selves. Other animals also seem to be able to distinguish their individual entities from other entities but to our knowledge, we may be the only animals to have evolved to the point of conceptual self reflection. (Genesis-they knew they were naked). But doesn’t our false, complex creation of an illusory “self” separate each “individual” from the true nature of the universe: Oneness!
If one looks deeply into their existence, one can determine that humans are not separate entities from the rest of the universe. In other words, we as physical beings are intimately connected to other “things” in the universe. We cannot survive without water, oxygen, vegetables, fruit, etc. and, therefore, we are a “part” of the “whole” Our ability to distinguish ourselves from other humans or animals or plants is an evolutionary strategy for self survival. But when you combine our intellectual abilities of conceptualization with our self awareness, we “create” a complex selfish greedy entity. Within our thoughts over our lifetimes, we create an entity of self that attempts to protect itself from others and attach itself to people and to things. In Christian terminology this selfishness is defined as sin. Selfish acts and thoughts always cause the selfish person to suffer. Also, since in true reality we are part of all things, when we are selfless in thoughts and acts, we are one with God. Is this not essentially what history’s great spiritual teachers were teaching?

This discussion intends to paint a portrait of basic human psychology in order that we may point our moral compasses towards a brighter future for humankind. Yes, I must seek out sustenance for my individual existence to maintain life and well being. But do I have to maintain a luxurious lifestyle while millions of fellow humans suffer from malnutrition and impoverished living conditions? Should we interact with each other globally by continuing to emphasize our differences and not our similarities? Should we continue to allow corporate greed to victimize poor people throughout the world?
One problem with our current inability to fully sustain an enlightened world is our selfish economic systems that encourage selfish motivations in our daily lives. With cooperative economic systems in place, we would not have to struggle for survival in a selfish manner.

It is difficult to recognize our egocentric nature whenever it arises but through mindful practice and enlightened education, we could be on the right path. To create an evolution of consciousness amongst our species, we must seek our Buddha nature, Christ consciousness that exists within us all but is hidden behind the greedy ego self. And finally to quote the great American Christian minister Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: “Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness.”

LDS Mark,

"Old time" Mormonism as well as "old time" Catholicism, Islam and Judaism relied and rely on prophets and prophecies for profit/greed.

Taking the modern view that includes reality and common sense, the correct term would be Mormonism as well as Catholicism, Islam, and Judaism relied and rely on fortune ($$$$$) telling for profit and greed.

Theologically speaking, these religious fortune tellers require that God knows the future i.e. if God does not know the future (is not omniscient) then no human knew or knows the future.

As per the famous contemporary theologian, Edward Schillebeeckx, God is not omniscient. Please read, pause and contemplate the following by Schillebeeckx:

Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

"Christians (et al) must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history."

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God, otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

i.e. No one, not even God can prophesy since that would violate the God-given gifts of Free Will and Future.

A few added notes about your "charitable" religion:

Mormonism???

A business/religious cult based on Joseph Smith's hallucinations which has bought respectability with a $30 billion business empire, the BYU "mission matured" football team and a great choir.

From: lds-mormon.com/time.shtml

"The first divergence between Mormon economics and that of other denominations is the tithe. Most churches take in the greater part of their income through donations. Very few, however, impose a compulsory 10% income tax on their members. Tithes are collected locally, with much of the money passed on informally to local lay leaders at Sunday services. "By Monday," says Elbert Peck, editor of Sunstone, an independent Mormon magazine, the church authorities in Salt Lake City "know every cent that's been collected and have made sure the money is deposited in banks." There is a lot to deposit. Last year $5.2 billion in tithes flowed into Salt Lake City, $4.9 billion of which came from American Mormons."

"The Mormons are stewards of a different stripe. Their charitable spending and temple building are prodigious. But where other churches spend most of what they receive in a given year, the Latter-day Saints employ vast amounts of money in investments that TIME estimates to be at least $6 billion strong. Even more unusual, most of this money is not in bonds or stock in other peoples' companies but is invested directly in church-owned, for-profit concerns, the largest of which are in agribusiness, media, insurance, travel and real estate. Deseret Management Corp., the company through which the church holds almost all its commercial assets, is one of the largest owners of farm and ranchland in the country, including 49 for-profit parcels in addition to the Deseret Ranch. Besides the Bonneville International chain and Beneficial Life, the church owns a 52% holding in ZCMI, Utah's largest department-store chain. (For a more complete list, see chart.) All told, TIME estimates that the Latter-day Saints farmland and financial investments total some $11 billion, and that the church's nontithe income from its investments exceeds $600 million. "

"Members of the church celebrate the Lord's Supper with water rather than wine or grape juice. They believe their President is a prophet who receives new revelations from God. These can supplant older revelations, as in the case of the church's historically most controversial doctrine: Smith himself received God's sanctioning of polygamy in 1831, but 49 years later, the church's President announced its recision. Similarly, an explicit policy barring black men from holding even the lowest church offices was overturned by a new revelation in 1978, opening the way to huge missionary activity in Africa and Brazil. "

Bottom line: Mormonism is a business cult using religion as a front and charitable donations and volunteer work to advertise said business.

CONCERNED THE CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED:

You seem to be confused between greed and Charity.

Most churches, Mormons included, do not keep the church money for themselves, but help their poor and needy whither they are members of their faith or not. They also build meeting houses and temples (Mormons again) that help their own.

You will find that the first people on a disaster site with relief supplies are church groups, and more often it is the Mormons who get there first.

God commands all people to take care of themselves and when they have extra, to help the needy, not line their pockets.

One of the unique things about the Mormons is that no one, I repeat, NO ONE is paid for his calling wither it is to print the Sunday bulletin or be the president/prophet of the church. All moneys go to services.

That is not greed. It is charity.

mark

Hmmm, greed?? Everyone knows the definition so let us look for early examples in an interesting domain, the founders and foundations of religions.

In Islam, we have the greed-lust driven, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating founder of said religion the long-dead Arab, Mohammed.

In Christianity (including Mormonism), the "historic" founder was the simple preacher man, long-dead Jewish fellow, Jesus. Not much greed there but one can make a case for the following steps for the start of greed in the said religion:

Christian economics 101:

The Baptizer drew crowds and charged for the "dunking". The historical Jesus saw a good thing and continued dunking and preaching the good word but added "healing" as an added charge to include free room and board. Sure was better than being a poor peasant but he got a bit too zealous and they nailed him to a tree.

Paul picked up the money scent on the road to Damascus. He added some letters and a prophecy of the imminent second coming for a fee for salvation and "Gentilized" the good word to the "big buck" world. i.e. Paul was the first media evangelist!!! And he and the other Apostles forgot to pay their Roman taxes and the legendary actions by the Romans made them martyrs for future greed.

Along comes Constantine. He saw the growing rich Christian community and recognized a new tax base so he set them "free".

The Holy Roman "Empirers"/Popes/Kings/Queens et al continued the money grab selling access to JC and heaven resulting in some of today's
richest organizations on the globe i.e. the Christian churches (including the Mormon Church) and related aristocracies.

An added note: As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue, ( Professors Crossan and Wright are On Faith panelists).

"Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

Judaism - Because the foundations are so mythical, it is impossible to be historical about greed in said religion. The historical King Herod and his off-springs were with the assistance of Rome, however, were a very greedy bunch.

Hinduism and Buddhism- A Google search will take you to many instances of greed in the leadership of said religions even though like other religions greed is a major sin and disorder.