Using God Politically

The cliché is that Republicans use religion for politics and democrats are genuine but it is Obama, Clinton, Kerry, Gore etc. who gives impassioned speeches from church pulpits... clearly a brazen renting of religion. On the other hand most republicans are simply answering questions form Chris Matthews and coming across a little too sincere, making people think that they “may actually believe this stuff”. The reaction from starry eyed democrats to the barn-burner speeches from their candidate who tried unsuccessfully to fake a revival cadence… “well he has to do that, to appeal to those [choose one: evangelicals, southerners, NASCAR fans, etc]”. Yep, liberal Democrats wrote the book on using religion and their followers know it but accept it as necessary to get the votes of the minions. They quote the Bible to try and point out some perceived hypocrisy and don’t realize they are simply demonstrating that they haven’t the slightest understanding of doctrine. These are the people who ask if God can make an object so heavy he can’t lift it. They revile someone for failing to recycle but in the next breath claim that everything is relative. This mentality sometimes is allowed to run its logical course until you have people like Steven Pinker thinking infanticide is not so bad. They protect unborn eagles but not humans. They are philosophically bankrupt. They are book-smart but do not have a once of wisdom. Unfortunately discussion is generally one sided on these sites, maybe because few decent people want to wade through the caustic and vulgar environment that prevails.

Dr. M: PLEASE UPDATE YOUR BLOG WITH LATEST RESPONSES. YOU ARE STILL BACK IN AUGUST ULTIMO!

After the head of Family Focus had all of his followers praying for a "deluge" when Obama gives his acceptance speech, if it does not rain,will that mean that God has FINALY turned his back on the Republican Hypocrits who call themselves Christians? Me thinks so!!!

You hit the target, Dr Marty. Your use of scripture, Matthew 6, neatly carves up the corpse of public religiosity. Hopefully more news sources will pay attention to your clear understanding of the issue, the separation of church and state.

Dear Former Father Marty: You yourself have used our Lord simce your failed committment to priest hood. So too bad tell your boss nauseous Sally, she may choose to disregard the fact.

Democrats using religion? HA!

It's Ronald Reagan, Lee Atwater, Jerry Falwell, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney Republicans who first hijacked Christianity in the "Evangelical" (now "Orthodox Christian") movements to forward their necon political agendas of religious and racial division, war, torture, executive branch corruption and the economic destruction of the middle class.

Poor Jesus.

Great statement and perspective on religion and politics. Certainly had God intended the secular world to be governed by religion He would have sent his son to be a governing King born into royalty rather than a commoner born in a stable.

"Just as there are 'water works' and other utilities, religion (and God) became utilities, noted Miller. They would support morality. Fine."

How come it's "Fine"?

This is just another statist who believes that religion exists to serve government. That is his right in our free democracy. Why must he deceive us about his actual beliefs though? Are they somehow hostile to a democracy where people are free to practice their religion? Possibly his eutopia is a place where there is no religion except the state. That would not be a new idea, but one as old as humanity itself.

Politicians represent everyone. The question is whether they set public policy based on their responsibilities to America or based on their religion. This question requires constant attention by anyone who invokes religion in the context of politics. Furthermore, voters should know what they are getting. Will a politician's vote on an issue result from of a belief in the correctness of the vote for the country, or representation.....or is the vote driven by a duty to their religion or their personal heavenly aspirations? Lets find out where they draw the line, and pray they are honest.

--
Thank You Mr. Marty & Similarly Situated for being APOCALYPTiC & not Pre-Apocalyptic about that UN-AMERiCAN Church encroaching into State Business!

Note: OUR Prophet, His HON. Harry Theriault [pbuh et al] , had indicated that Ye are one of the Wisest Men on Earth [Especially America as an honest icon w/ a World View!]!

Originally Posted, on August 21, 2008 2:34 PM, but Jealously Deleted by WAPO August 22, 2008.

Then reposted August 22, 2008 4:18 PM , but Jealously Deleted by Wapo et al

All Comments (22)

Oooppssa: Correction:

LET's Sue Them Jelousical Satan(s) & Their Cunning CHiEFSTANS OF EVANGELiCAL CHURCHES of America, aka Religio MAFiOSO's! And

Let's DEPORT, after being found Guilty, their imported Bible(s)(not OUR) & their imported pre-Apocalyptic god Systems, RE-GOD-LESS, from whence these 'SATAN(s) ADVOCATES' originated {meaning back to the ABROAD}, Not Made & Propheceid in America!

Hence: Using the "UNAMERiCAN PATRiOT ACT" against Them, Like ENEMY COMBATANTS, except they hath CROSSES( aka 4-Way Totem Poles)!

TONKA SHhAME!

Att: Douglas, F i E L D, et al;

iNTERESTiNG: Please knowth that that $2-Billion Dollar "F.AiTH/BELiEF/RELiGiO-Based-Intiative" American pie moneys

[Hijacked 'hand-outs?' or Usurped, of NOT-Tax-Free-Money's, but Hard Earned Tax-Payer Money aka Promoting Rabbi Yashua, the Pre-Apocalyptic "Judeo-Ju" JESUS , made-into or converted to a Mr. Judeo-Christ (a religious Prophet(s) & their "man-made" god(s) competing for a Name for some god(s) or Goddess's, instead of "O.U.R. G-D" "innate" SYSTEM..]

should be re-converted to a "S.ECULAR-Faith-Based-Initiatives" instead!

So from F.B.i to S.B.i! Then Ye & "Friends of the Court" {people] can help Clear-out our PRiSONERS of +/- 2.3 Million! This includes those held in "Faith-Based-Owned Private Prisons (for Profit Corporations)!

Trivia: Did Ye Knowth that, in America, that's right, in U.S.A., not the Communists, , that 95% of "The Peoples Prisons" [Private & Public] is Over Run & controlled by them so called American Evilgelicals, aka Jealousicals, or EVANGELiCALS, of America?? Another

Trivia: Did Ye also Knowth, that, when Ye heareth that almost a $TRiLLiON Dollars of 'The People's Taxes is spend/spent or Appropriated/Procured by CONGRESS for IRAQ/AFGHANiSTAN etc.. (WAR) efforts (though not all in vain) that 95% of it $Cash) Goes DOMESTiCALLY & directly to them EVANGElICAL run Factory's that make 'Guns, Bullets" etc...????? Another

TriViA: Did Ye also Knowth That , ironically, that 90% of All "PAYMENY IN KiND" [annual or semi annual ,P.I.K., for Farmers Subsidies, pre-payed/supported for not growing & or Growing or a mix] Proceeds was & is held by the EVANGELiCAL of America? Please see linko on PIK @:
http://www.gao.gov/docdblite/summary.php?rptno=RCED-85-89&accno=128031 and
http://www.agriculture.com/ag/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/ag/story/data/1139266213516.xml&catref=ag1001

--- Note:

Imagine: They hath a "SECULAR-PRiViLiGE" (not a Right) via "I.R.S. Tax-Exempt (religio iNSTiTUTiON) Status. But Then again, THEY

[Evilgelicals-Nationals of America (not Russia) & Their Religio MAFiOSO Chieftans (likes Rick Warrem; Rabbi Chuck Colson's Prisons Ministrys, Rabbi Mike Huckabee, Rabbi John Haggee & other ARMAGEDDON lovers & Facilitaors & instiogators: whom should hath the "RiCO"-Act et al, SECULAR-LAW(s), not BiBLiCAL, Used Agianst Them]

Are MONEY & MATERiALiSTiC Lovers! This is why THEY

[rick Warren's ARMY & Co of Bollixers, whom like a al quada TRIBE Leaders; aka UN-AMERiCAN actors & Players & enablers & Promotors]

are so 'AUDACiOUS' (not Schame) Bold & Power Hungry! They get Most of the "Money Supply" (purse-Strings) and get to Participate in most of the "MULIPLYER-EFFECT" (money changing hands) in this Sweet Sweet Nations which they are SOUR-ing!

Soo, Since they hath So So much Time & Money on & in their Hands, that THEY (Evilgelical Mafiosos) should Have their SECULAR-I.R.S. Tax-Exempt Status Removed! Especially ,

like in 'Punitive Damage' Cases (Precident or set an example to prevent or not repeat act suid against) for attempting to GANGing-UP (like Pre-Mediated Murder: They knew before hand) , USUPRP & stage a Religious, but testy, "COUP D AtAT" for a RELiGIO [Evilgelical Scheme/Ploy/intent] Take Over of O.U.R. Forefather(s) & Mother(s) [pbu them all] SECUALR-BASED NATiONAL FEDERATION of STATES! And

Also: They , Rick Warren & Co. [Evangelical Elders of Zion, aka Religio Gand 'God-Fathers'] hath also interfe'd , imposed & enabled & INSULTED our (not Their) U.S. SUPREME COURT JUSTiCES!

Note: a Majority of the U.S. Sct. Judges, in the Highest Court of this Land (not THEiR Religious Court, not their Land, yet nice try Rabbi Jezeus finatics) are Catholic. How Appealing.

So, THEY [Evangelical international 'Imported" Evangelical Nationals, not Secular Nationals] should automatically loose, their

[Eviljelousicals chieftans, aka Religio MAFiOSO god 'god-Fathers']

I.R.S. 501-3c (a,b,d,e) Tax Exempt Status for "KNOWiNGLY" & "WiLLFULLY" interfering , flouting SECULAR-Business in Conspiracy to stage a Religio (like a REvolution) "Coup D Atat" contrary to the ESTABLiSHMENT Clause of our (not them Split-Minded Psychotic folk: Religionists) Miraculous U.S. Constitution!

Please see Tax-Exempt IRS linko @ :
http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/charities/

--- Soo , Attorney at Law; Cyber Freund Mr. Doughlas Field et al:

LET's Sue The Jelousical Satanically & Cunning CHiEFS OF EVANGELiCAL CHURCHES of America!

Let's DEPORT their imported Bible(s) & imported god Systems, RE-GOD-LESS, from whence these 'SATAN(s) ADVOCATES' originated {meaning back to the ABROAD}, Not Made & Propheceid in America!!

Let's Clean-up our Jails (not Their Jails) ASAP!

TRiViA: Did Ye Knowth that , from Begining of Judeo-Ju-Bible (via MOZEUS the god player & Pharasees) and to the End of Revelation in Judeo-Christ--Bible (via JESUS the god player & diciples) are al Based & Founded By & For PRiSONERS & Non Convicts????

Yes! 1st self serving Rabbi Moses, was not only a Fugitive & escaped Convict from Pharoah (like Prez Bush say) , but a MURDERER too! And that JOHN the REVELATOR died in a Poyhmus Prison, not to mention that JOHN the Baptist was also a Prisoner Beheaded!??

Note: Even SECULAR-Man "Mr. CHRiSTOPHER COLUMBUS was a Prisoner! Even AUSTRALiA was founded by PrISoNERS & or Settled such!???

AMAZiNG () NO GRACE!

---
To Learn About Prison Abuse & Crporal Punishment instigated & Perpetrated via Prison-Religionist:

Please Visit:

^ .^. ^
http://{J}
http://..{O}
http://....{Z}
http://......{E}
http://.........{V}
http://............{Z} (dot) {US}

Thank-A-ShaME America! Not Russia!

PS: We will win Both The "PEACE PRiZE" & the "TEMPLETON Prize"!

Originally Posted August 24, 2008 9:48 AM, but Jealously Deleted for Plagiarism by WAPO & Co.

Amen, brother. Using God in politics for the benefit of votes is against God and politics.

// Joe wrote: Jesus was a liberal. //

Liberal or not, Jesus Christ was as jewish as any jew can be.

Signing off! Good night!

Earl C, comments on what McCain did not say:

"Perhaps the name "Jesus" just slipped his mind."

Friend: lots of things slip McCain mind, including how many houses he owns.

Jesus was a liberal.

Chris writes:
"Good commentary. I do not like the way the candidates - particularly the Dems - have used religion as a political prop in this campaign. It is a misuse of religion, and insulting to we who are religious."

I am so glad that Chris thinks that the Dems are misusing religion. Considering that McCain lacks the knowledge or the faith to use Jesus' name in his own personal testimony speaks volumes. Considering the fact that the Republicans/Republican groups (Pat Robertson, James Dobson, the Southern Baptist Convention, and so forth) have co-opted God for their own political purposes makes Chris look like a whiner. 'Tis a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Religion is indeed not a prop for the Democrats. The Republicans have forced the issue. The testimonies to date by the Dems have been sincere. Too bad that the Republicans and the religious right think that they have the only Christian testimonies. To hear them use religion in this way is sickening, especially when they launch into their personal and unfounded attacks. Jesus said, "Judge not lest ye be judged." He also said, "Do not try to take the speck out of your brother's eye when you have a beam in your own."

Jesus also said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." By an large, the Dems practice this one (the Golden Rule). Swiftboating has been perfected by the Republicans. They spread their lies and call them truth. How Christian is this? Oh, I forgot, everything is OK in politics. Hypocrites!

Shouldn't we also know the candidates' positions on kiddie porn and child molestation? Wife beating, slavery, genocide ... the list goes on.

Since religious types won't vote for an atheist those running for office have to at least feign belief, whether they by this crap or not. And of course the believers fall for it.

Can't you get your affirmation somewhere else?

This thread went pretty far before the "it must be a liberal conspiracy" accusation. Well don't worry die hard conservatives, the democrats are sucking up to the religious types now too, they saw the success of this practice on your side of the aisle.

What a bunch of suckers.

I agree with the major proposition of this article. However, when asked pointed questions about personal faith, a person should not be embarrassed to mention "Jesus." Obama addressed the faith question head on. He did not elaborate other than to give a condensed version of his personal testimony. Unfortunately, McCain, for whatever reason, found mentioning Jesus by name in a church environment difficult. Perhaps the name "Jesus" just slipped his mind.

Context is everything in this discussion of religion and politics. Up until now, the Republicans have claimed to have God on their side despite their actions which revealed that they did not really know Him.

If I were in Obama's shoes at Saddleback, I would have answered similarly without wondering if I were being pious. Surely, one could look to the example of Paul in Acts as a prototype of such a personal witness/testimony. Therefore, the Bible presents a larger context for what happened at Sattleback. In Obama's and the DNC's favor is that they do not appropriate God and Jesus to their party as sole property of theirs, but rather acknowledge that God exists in a profound way.

THey were asked--they answered. Should they have refused to answer? Wouldn't that have silenced a simple statement of their beliefs? As a voter, I'm glad to hear their answers.

You can tell that it really chaps Professor Marty's buttocks that Saddleback Community Church carrys more cachet politically as a forum than the University of Chicago.

Professor Marty doesn't say so, but what the professor doesn't say may be more important than what he does say.

Whaddaya think?

Does anyone besides the poinyheaded Chicago religion professor and other rich, liberal, and mostly white Progressive Protestants feel endangered by Obama's and McCain's participation in the Saddleback Community Church forum?

I get the feeling this professor feels the proper forum would have been the University of Chicago, where former Governor and currently incarcerated George Ryan addressed the faculty to much approbrium concerning abolition of the death penalty.

Oyez! Oyez!

With all due respect (it aint much) to the pointyheaded Chicago religion professor, the Saddleback Community Church Forum just became an established component of the American political process.

Saddleback Community Church got there first, but other denominations will be out there in 2012, vying to have the Democratic and Republican nominees answer questions about faith and the issues.

I can see McCain feeling very comfortable in a traditional Roman Catholic setting, but I can't see any Democrat accepting an invitation from a traditional Roman Catholic church.

Can you?

So it is only religion that cannot have its say in the marketplace of ideas. Secular religions: liberalism, conservatism, socialism, communism, faith in the United Nations and faith in the US Supreme Court must all be given pride of place in the public square of ideas but not religion. In the real world, can you think of more brilliant politicians than Jesus, Moses, Muhammed, men who changed the sociology of their cultures for all time? Be pro abortion and you cannot be a liberal. Be anti-abortion and you cannot be a conservative. Sounds like a religious orthodoxy to me. Besides, both Obama and McCain go out of their way advertise their faith. Are they merely politicians or merely hypocrites? Have a blessed day.

If God is not omnipotent, as claimed by this pointyheaded religion professor (University of Chicago) in an earlier opinion, why does Marty quibble and moan about politicians "using God" politically?

I think the professor is perhaps worried that perhaps God is omnipotent.

Whaddaya think?

A dollar to a donut (or a piece of dog crap) says that this Chicago religion professor is some kind of gay-friendly Progressive Protestant, in the mold of Obama's Rev. Jeremiah Wright (UCC) or Obama's Bishop Gene Robinson (Episcopalian).

A whole bunch of liberals are dog-in-the-manger because Obama agreed to the Saddleback Community Church Forum, and they just can't get over it.

Thank you! I am sick and tired of all the "I pray daily" blabber - I often figure the public spouters of piety are speaking nor listening to the Almighty but talking to themselves.

This is such a great piece of prose I hope you'll forgive my reposting it here - and maybe a little later Dr. Marty would bring the Beatitudes to the attention of the WaPo:

Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 6:

"Beware of practicing your piety before others in order to be seen by them, for then you have no reward from your Father in heaven. . . . Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you."

Thank you! I am sick and tired of all the "I pray daily" blabber - I often figure the public spouters of piety are speaking nor listening to the Almighty but talking to themselves.

This is such a great piece of prose I hope you'll forgive my reposting it here - and maybe a little later Dr. Marty would bring the Beatitudes to the attention of the WaPo:

Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 6:

"Beware of practicing your piety before others in order to be seen by them, for then you have no reward from your Father in heaven. . . . Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you."

Dwight

We certainly have a right to know what the candidate's position on Abortion is.

But we should know it within the political and moral sphere, not as a test of their religious beliefs.

Have Tom Brokaw ask them. Not Rick Warren, much as i support Rick Warren's efforts within the religious sphere (and much as I don't in some regards).

Yes indeed.

It was much more seemly when Presidents like Harry Truman and Eisenhower kept their private religious beliefs private.

It is quite unseemly, and ripe for exploitation of God and one's sanctimony, this current practice of forcing candidates to testify on the public stump what their relationship is with whatever they define as God (and it usually involves Jesus).

And watching Mccain have to pretend to be religious is positively painful

This forum helped voters know where the candidates come from. do we have the right to know what their stand on abortion is, you bet we do. I understand your candidate didn't do so well, thats tough, bet this forum asked the questions the regular liberal reporters would never ask...

Wow! In a very short article you have hopefully enlightened many as to the expectations politicians have, when they invoked their religion as a marketing tool. Not only is this practice cynical, it is ungodly and ignorantly heretic. But that is no surprise, for the only purpose of selling one's religion in a political campaign is to win votes; God and religion are the tools, the ultimate goal is firstly and primarily, personal gain.

Robert W:

Jesus stood strong against the religious establishment that controlled the nation at the time. He stood silent when accused of blasphemy and put on trial. Then they found him guilty, beat him, crowned him with thorns and crucified him.

There's a lesson of some kind in there somewhere. Maybe it's a good idea to not "stand strong against the religious establishment"?

That's for sure, staying out of the religious establishment's way when the religious establishment has the power of government behind it. His holiness took care of Galileo but couldn't quite reach Kepler else the earth would still be flat, everybody would be Catholics and tithed by law. As it is the politicians only "buy votes" using taxes to pay for them through "faith based initiatives." Both candidates are in favor of faith based initiatives. Mr Marty getting any of that free money?

By the way, how have Jews fared with their religion based government(s) going back to before their savior Jesus whom they rejected of course? Once religion takes hold it's like cancer. The society lingers on in agony while slowly dying. Of course America with all it's nuclear weapons will be the exception -just lingering on in agony forever and ever more.

Well, since the evangelicals "own" God, I guess it only makes sense for them to use Him.

Here it is again organized religion demanding "moral" behavior in exchange for heavenly reward or to avoid eternal punishment how is an act moral if you only do it out of fear or desire. heavan and hell eliminate any real morality. when I die there will be only nothingness and I treat my fellow human beings with dignity and respect anyway. you christian are all just bucking for a metaphysical promotion that does not make you a good person nomatter how many people you help of howmany temptations you resist. You are all using prayer and good works to get a "reward from your Father in heaven" you have been bought.

Jesus himself stood strong against a religious government. It was his willingness to stand up against the Pharisees and their legal and political "religious law" that lead ultimately to his cruxifiction. Somewhere along the way America's religious leaders have managed to completely forget this.

Very well said! Thank you. Doris Lee

Enemy Of The State:

Polls have ended that era. By poll 86% of Americans believe there is a God. So the politicians translate that into 86% of Americans are religious. Religious people vote. God's law must trump man's law. Therefore the politicians campaign on God's law. Is it God's or religion's law?

To get back to the "good old days" you need to do the separation of church and God. Is believing there is a God independent of belonging to a religion? If it's not, believing there is a God requires one to belong to a religion then God and religion are inseparable and the good old days are gone forever.

Historically, every civilization has suffered the same fate. Religion eventually brought all great civilizations down. God's law always trump man's law. Religions are God law makers.

Religion's first law is they're in charge -witness Pastor Rick's power. If you get the feeling the USA is about to collapse you're not alone. Religions, men making laws accepted as God's laws have destroyed every civilization so far. Only God can save us now for the men who make God's laws are in charge. The good old day are gone forever. Or until and unless we separate church and God.

In my book, "A Search for Original Christianity" I point out that the definition of the word "Hypocrite", used by Jesus so often against Pharisaical attacks, was solely a stage actor who performed while holding a mask in front of his face. Martin Marty brings that out with his biblical quote from Matthew.
Any "Saddleback" type of interview forces a participant to hold up the mask and try to keep from gagging, or to hold up the mask and enjoy a perfect PR oportunity.
Charles Stewart
Box 195 Pleasant Hill Tn. 38578

I kind of long for the days - not too long ago - when candidates kept their religious views to themselves, and understood that in running for office in the first place they had undertaken a grave trust to serve all the people, not just the religious ones.

From an internet source. I suppose one can go to the "Tampa Tribune" and get the story first hand.
------------------------------------------------
The Tampa Tribune reports controversial pastor Randy White of the Without Walls megachurch in Tampa is supporting Barack Obama and believes his estranged wife and former partner in the church, Paula White, does also.

According to Federal Election Commission records, Paula White gave Obama's campaign $2,300, while her husband donated $2,000 to Obama's White House bid. She is currently under investigation by the Senate Finance Committee for allegedly using the church's tax-free status to buy lavish furnishings for her personal use.
------------------------------------------------

What this tells us is mega ministries are money makers. We know money is president maker. God is "useful" making presidents. God and money are inseparable just like successful candidates and money.

Historically, great economic upheaval is accompanied by a "change in religion." That's a change and not an end. Russia is now back to square one with their "thou shalt not use God here" policy that came with the revolution. The Chinese are still holdouts but they never had, "using God religion" to begin with.

American politicians still have the "God gun" pointed at them but the above article says the, "God gunners" are getting a little bold. Do as you please during good times but when "economic stimulus" is the order of the day those politicians start looking for money. Don't be surprised if taxes get levied on those "using" God.

The entry of politicians agendas into my church's sermons, "forums", and "advice" has kept me OUT of my church since clinton. I consider it god's house, not a showroom floor to exhibit a politians piety and "values". And certainly not the place to ask me to "tithe" to their campaigns.

And just for the record. No used car salesmen should "sell" in this house, nor banks, nor insurance companies etc etc.

Church used to be the place where all this fakery was called out and kept out.

Unfortunately, they are now a part of that fakery.
They have lost way more than any politicans have gained in this partnership.

Uh, "using" God.?

God is a weapon in the hands of ministers pointed like a gun at the faithful in the process of robbing them. Render to God or else bang. The ones that get the money are the ministers, Pastor Rick for example. The forum was all about money for Pastor Rick and we can expect his ego too. He demonstrated his "using" God muscle. I "invited" them to my place and got ignored. Were they invited to that forum or summoned? God is "useful."

Everyone understands guns pointed at them. If it goes off they get shot dead. When God goes off people go to hell. God is a lot more fearsome than guns. Dead isn't really dead for man is immortal in spirit if not in body, lives forever while hell is staying alive and being tortured forever.

Xians, those who have X'ed out all God's words and maybe substituted a few of their own use God for tax sheltering. Thou shalt not tax God's church else they wouldn't bother "using" God.

If people don't "use" God then what's God good for?

God was invented to be used by men. Nothing new here. We ought to just be glad that most religious folk, or Christians at least, restrict it to politics now.

Brilliant essay!

If Rick Warren hosting a candidate forum makes you "nervous", may I respectfully recommend you get a life?

It's preposterous to suggest that either the republic or organized religion is so fragile that it cannot survive a candidate talking about her beliefs or "inner spiritual life," sincerely or otherwise. Voters are entirely free to interpret everything a candidate says and to attach whatever significance or insignificance they choose.

You can bet we would not be hearing complaints about the Warren event if Obama hadn't bombed there.

I see Marty is still the Liberal I knew thirty-five years ago. His analysis are not as conclusive as he would have us believe. He quotes Scripture to support his position, but there are other Scriptures too regarding public profession of faith. Matthew 10:33 would seem to be applicable. But I do appreciate Marty weighing in on this matter, for it reminds me how we got from "there" to "here"!! Oh, by the way, wouldn't articles published in a newspaper qualify as a "street corner"

Dr. Marty: Many thanks for your article in the On Faith column relative to the Warren presidential "civil" forum. Like the recent article by K. Parker on the same subect, yours states exceedingly well the position of many citizens and voters that we were imposed upon when Pastor Warren asked the candidates for what amounted to a confession of their faith. I was disappointed that neither of the candidates had dared to extract a commitment before with the good pastor drawing the line on what kinds of questions were off-limits.

Again, many thanks!

Gilbert A. Sprauve
e-mail: plan1@vitelcom.net

WHERE ARE AMERICA'S RELIGIOUS LEADERS ?

*** SADLY THIS REPRESSIVE JUDICIAL INJUSTICE HAS BECOME AN AMERICAN ART FORM !!!

** WHEN GOD'S FACE BECAME VERY RED **
THE US SUPREME COURT GAVE ENEMY COMBATANTS FEDERAL APPEAL HC RIGHTS LAWYERS AND PROPER ACCESS TO US FEDERAL COURTS,AND POORER AMERICANS (MANY EVEN ON DEATH ROW ) ARE DENIED PROPER FEDERAL APPEAL LEGAL REPRESENTATION TO US FEDERAL COURTS OF APPEAL, AND ROTTING IN AMERICAN PRISONS NATIONWIDE ??????

**** INNOCENT AMERICANS ARE DENIED REAL HC RIGHTS WITH THEIR FEDERAL APPEALS !
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE $LOWLY FINDING OUT HOW EA$Y IT I$ FOR MIDDLE CLA$$ AND WORKING POOR AMERICAN$ TO FALL VICTIM TO OUR U$ MONETARY JUDICIAL $Y$TEM.

****WHEN THE US INNOCENT WERE ABANDONED BY THE GUILTY ****
The prison experts have reported that there are 100,000 innocent Americans currently being falsely imprisoned along with the 2,300,000 total US prison population nationwide.

Since our US Congress has never afforded poor prison inmates federal appeal legal counsel for their federal retrials,they have effectively closed the doors on these tens of thousands of innocent citizens ever being capable of possibly exonerating themselves to regain their freedom through being granted new retrials.

This same exact unjust situation was happening in our Southern States when poor and mostly uneducated Black Americans were being falsely imprisoned for endless decades without the needed educational skills to properly submit their own written federal trial appeals.

This devious and deceptive judicial process of making our poor and innocent prison inmates formulate and write their own federal appeal legal cases for possible retrials on their state criminal cases,is still in effect today even though everyone in our US judicial system knows that without proper legal representation, these tens of thousands of innocent prison inmates will be denied their rightful opportunities of ever being granted new trials from our federal appeal judges!!

Sadly, the true US *legal* Federal Appeal situation that occurs when any of our uneducated American prison inmates are forced to attempt to submit their own written Federal Appeals (from our prisons nationwide) without the assistance of proper legal counsel, is that they all are in reality being denied their legitimate rights for Habeas Corpus and will win any future Supreme Court Case concerning this injustice!

For our judicial system and our US Congressional Leaders Of The Free World to continue to pretend that this is a real and fair opportunity for our American Middle Class and Working Poor Citizens, only delays the very needed future change of Federal Financing of all these Federal appeals becoming a normal formula of Our American judicial system.

It was not so very long ago that Public Defenders became a Reality in this country.Prior that legal reality taking place, their were also some who thought giving anyone charged with a crime a free lawyer was a waste of taxpayers $$.

This FACADE and HORROR of our Federal Appeal proce$$ is not worthy of the Greatest Country In The World!

***GREAT SOCIETIES THAT DO NOT PROTECT EVEN THEIR INNOCENT, BECOME THE GUILTY!

A MUST READ ABOUT AMERICAN INJUSTICE::
1) YAHOO AND 2) GOOGLE
MANNY GONZALES THE KID THAT EVERYONE FORGOT IN THE CA PRISON SYSTEM. ** A JUDICIAL RIDE OF ONES LIFE !

lawyersforpooramericans@yahoo.com 424-247-2013

WHERE ARE AMERICA'S RELIGIOUS LEADERS ?

** SADLY THIS REPRESSIVE JUDICIAL INJUSTICE HAS BECOME AN AMERICAN ART FORM !!!

*** WHEN GOD'S FACE BECAME VERY RED ***
THE US SUPREME COURT GAVE ENEMY COMBATANTS FEDERAL APPEAL HC RIGHTS LAWYERS AND PROPER ACCESS TO US FEDERAL COURTS,AND POORER AMERICANS (MANY EVEN ON DEATH ROW) ARE DENIED PROPER FEDERAL APPEAL LEGAL REPRESENTATION TO OUR US FEDERAL COURTS OF APPEAL, AND ROTTING IN AMERICAN PRISONS NATIONWIDE ?????????

**** INNOCENT AMERICANS ARE DENIED REAL HC RIGHTS WITH THEIR FEDERAL APPEALS !
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE $LOWLY FINDING OUT HOW EA$Y IT I$ FOR MIDDLE CLA$$ AND WORKING POOR AMERICAN$ TO FALL VICTIM TO OUR U$ MONETARY JUDICIAL $Y$TEM.

****WHEN THE US INNOCENT WERE ABANDONED BY THE GUILTY ****
The prison experts have reported that there are 100,000 innocent Americans currently being falsely imprisoned along with the 2,300,000 total US prison population nationwide.

Since our US Congress has never afforded poor prison inmates federal appeal legal counsel for their federal retrials,they have effectively closed the doors on these tens of thousands of innocent citizens ever being capable of possibly exonerating themselves to regain their freedom through being granted new retrials.

This same exact unjust situation was happening in our Southern States when poor and mostly uneducated Black Americans were being falsely imprisoned for endless decades without the needed educational skills to properly submit their own written federal trial appeals.

This devious and deceptive judicial process of making our poor and innocent prison inmates formulate and write their own federal appeal legal cases for possible retrials on their state criminal cases,is still in effect today even though everyone in our US judicial system knows that without proper legal representation, these tens of thousands of innocent prison inmates will be denied their rightful opportunities of ever being granted new trials from our federal appeal judges!!

Sadly, the true US *legal* Federal Appeal situation that occurs when any of our uneducated American prison inmates are forced to attempt to submit their own written Federal Appeals (from our prisons nationwide) without the assistance of proper legal counsel, is that they all are in reality being denied their legitimate rights for Habeas Corpus and will win any future Supreme Court Case concerning this injustice!

For our judicial system and our US Congressional Leaders Of The Free World to continue to pretend that this is a real and fair opportunity for our American Middle Class and Working Poor Citizens, only delays the very needed future change of Federal Financing of all these Federal appeals becoming a normal formula of Our American judicial system.

It was not so very long ago that Public Defenders became a Reality in this country.Prior that legal reality taking place, their were also some who thought giving anyone charged with a crime a free lawyer was a waste of taxpayers $$.

This FACADE and HORROR of our Federal Appeal proce$$ is not worthy of the Greatest Country In The World!

***GREAT SOCIETIES THAT DO NOT PROTECT EVEN THEIR INNOCENT, BECOME THE GUILTY!

A MUST READ ABOUT AMERICAN INJUSTICE::
1) YAHOO AND 2) GOOGLE
MANNY GONZALES THE KID THAT EVERYONE FORGOT IN THE CA PRISON SYSTEM.
** A JUDICIAL RIDE OF ONES LIFE !

lawyersforpooramericans@yahoo.com 424-247-2013

Prophet Mohammed when he settled in Medina with his followers was to constitute a city-state in which Muslims, Jews, Christians and pagan Arabs all entered into a social contract and signed the first treaty (hudna) of its kind, reconciliation, cessation of hostilities and a peace treaty between the Muslims and non-Muslims. The constitutional law, first of its kind in the world, of the first "Muslim" state, was a confederacy as a sequence of the multiplicity of the population groups, which meant to Muslims their religion; and to the Jews their religion; to Christians their religion, and there would be benevolence and justice to all. This also meant that the non-Muslims possessed the right to vote in the election of the head of the state [and] they elected Prophet Mohammed as their political head. Islam and politics are inter-linked and compliment each other but within the parameters of God’s commands.

In Islamic states, non-Muslim communities had always enjoyed a judicial autonomy, not only for personal status but also for all affairs of life including civil, penal and others. Judicial powers were delegated to Christian priests and the Jewish rabbis in the reign of many caliphs. In the time of Prophet Mohammed, the Jews of Medina had their synagogue and educational institutes functioning, and in treaty with the Christians, Prophet gave a guarantee not only for the security of person and property of the inhabitants but left the nomination of bishops and priests to the Christian community itself. In an Islamic state, non-Muslims constitute a protected community and it is therefore the duty of the governments to protect their legitimate interests.

I wish to point out to here that secularism was born in response to Christianity, as people began to examine their Bible in more detail and became disillusioned. The only alternative to believing in the "God of Bible" for many people was to drop the idea of God and adopt atheism, secularism and communism etc. Atheism and secularism have been responsible for some of the greatest crimes, barbarities, cruelties, violation of human rights and injustice inflicted on mankind.

In this age of modern technology and scientific advancement, it is utter absurd and folly to deny the existence of a Supreme Power, call it Allah or God (less appropriate) who controls the destiny of the universe and who lives in it or exists from the tiniest particle to the vastest galaxies. In Islam, the main theme of the Quran is the relationship between humans and their Creator (Khaliq) and reminds us again and again of the oneness and supremacy of Allah and his worthiness of worship and none other, and eventual fate of every soul to be held accountable for its deeds on the Day of Judgment. Can anyone deny that death will never come to them or explain what happens to us after we die? We have no answers to these metaphysical questions nor can we ridicule them with limitation of our intellect.

No description of the Quran can surpass its own description: Alif Lamm Rae. "A Book which we have revealed unto you in order you might lead mankind out of the depth of darkness into light by the leave of their Lord - to the way of exalted in power, worthy of all praises: Allah to whom belong all things in the heavens and on earth." (Ibraheem 14:1). So that is what the Quran is but we should also be sure about what it is not? The Koran makes numerous references to natural phenomena including the movements of heavenly bodies and the behaviour of various creatures. These are in perfect harmony with observed realities and this is an amazing fact, the significance of which is not often underlined. The Quran is also scientifically remarkable in another

Allah has blessed man with the faculty of ilmul-biyan (tongue to talk & express) that is unique, and that distinguishes man from all other God’s creation. Otherwise animals, birds and insects have far greater abilities to survive on this earth than we have. We are here to observe the vast panorama of nature, its ceaseless superb mechanism, its grand design that exists in the entire Universe and ponder and admire the Creator (Khaliqul-Zaman), who made this unique living being out of lifeless matter: carbon, calcium, sodium and other chemicals?

While we observe all the wonderful designs of nature but few amongst are blind to the designer! Kufr (atheism) according to Islam is the worst of all tyrannies. It is an act of cruel, unjust and ignorant use of man’s intellectual power to reject God, which inherently embalmed in his soul (ruh). When the entire Universe and what exists in it is obedient to Allah-God Almighty and why should we disobey God and rebel and become disobedient. As long as we remember that we are only a passing traveller on this earth often taking refuge under a shade of a tree but our final destination in not this life - it is a test our deeds but the purpose of our existence is the eternal life where we will be judged, rewarded and punished according to our deeds on left behind by us on this earth.

There is inter-relation between all things that Allah has created and there is unity that runs through the whole of Allah’s crated order and through human society if that society is to be Islamic. There must be unity in human life; there must be unity in the relationship between man and the world of nature; there must be unity in human thought; there must be unity what man makes, in the art, the architecture and cities which he creates. All of these forms of unity reflect the Wisdom and Will of Allah in our world, the Will which is embodied most concretely in the Divine law or Shariah and which should be expressed in every authentic facet of the Muslim’s life. Islamic doctrine is based on revealing of the total Nature of Divinity who is the One without a partner. That is the heart of Islamic message. Islam came to the world so that man could know the Unity of Allah.

The Quran makes numerous references to natural phenomena including the movements of heavenly bodies and the behaviour of various creatures. These are in perfect harmony with observed realities and this is an amazing fact, the significance of which is not often underlined. The Quran is also scientifically remarkable in another way. It makes statements about natural phenomena that show a foreknowledge of future discoveries and a superior intellect aware of things of which no human in the seventh century could have been. Such verses serve more than one purpose that we can think of.

One example of this the verse on the development of the human embryo in the 23rd chapter, which concludes with "So blessed be Allah the best to create!" On another level they provide information or incentives to investigate the wonders of creation. Muslims are told at least 756 times that the author of the Quran is aware of scientific facts that have only recently been confirmed. Since it is impossible that any person could have guessed these things so accurately, it follows that the only possible author of these Suras (verses) was Allah Himself.

A poor old lady was weaving wool on her cartwheel and a Sufi passing by asked her, "Do you believe in God" "Yes I do", she said. But what is the proof and how you do you know that He exists?” “She replied that this wheel tells her everything; if I move it, it moves." Who is responsible for the functions in perfect order of all that exists in this universe?

Well stated!! I can add no more.

Dr. Martin wrote: Religion is then a "public utility," something which confuses public policy and does authentic religion no favor"

Dr. Martin warning is well taken. The US could slide into a situation much like what we see in Iraq: Sunni v Shia v etc.

what rips the middle east is the politicization of religion.

it is instructive not to do the same fragmentation of society we see in middle east practiced here.

politicization of God would lead us to lose both ethically/privately as well as socially.

*****
With all due respect to Pastor Warren and the candidates, and without complaint about what was said, I'm on the side of those who are nervous about the practices that bring this kind of forum about, and its longer-term consequences.. It is almost impossible to stage events with a focus like this without falling into the trap of "using" God.
*****

Once my colleague got frustrated with me for vehemently criticizing Indian politico, while we were having our tea break from our intense work session in Delhi and asked me what was wrong with leaders like L.K. Advani?

I replied "Because leaders like Advani prostitutionalize religion."

Twenty years later, I have to say that again -

Leaders like Rick Warren, George W. Bush, Barak Obama and John McCain prostitutionalize religion.

Ron,

Thanks for the coherent comment. I think you also make a good point. You should be encouraged to know that there are Christians and people of faith out there that want to protect the separation of church and state as much as many atheists do.

I actually think Obama gave a great speech back in 2006 at the call to renewal event in which addressed many of the same concerns you have even as a person of faith.

Good commentary. I do not like the way the candidates - particularly the Dems - have used religion as a political prop in this campaign. It is a misuse of religion, and insulting to we who are religious.

This author makes a very interesting point. While I and many other atheists bemoan the entire concept of believing in gods and religions as a silly delusion at best, and a dangerous insanity at its worst, we don't really do ourselves in favors by coming out that way.

We'd like to see the government entirely free of religion, utterly and totally free of it. In fact we'd like to see our species free of it, but there we are.

The point I've taken for Mr. Marty's contribution here is that we atheists perhaps have less to fear from government imposed religion than religion itself has to fear.

You believers, you can generalize yourselves as "Christians" when you want to christianize the government, but what happens after you succeed?

Why are there so many denominations, sects, cults, and other taxonomic descriptions within christianity? Because you can't agree among yourselves about that which is truth and that which is heresy and blasphemy.

So I ask the protestants, would you be happy if the christian government was run by a Catholic? And vice versa? Would the episcopalians be satisfied with a pentacostal government?

Disagreements between the protestants and the catholics have been cause for more mass murder than any other ideas on the continent of europe, other than naziism and communism. And these ideologies only killed more people because there were more people available to be killed in their time.

Do you really think your efforts to take over the government and make it a christian government will not, in the end, lead to more strife and more argument and more disagreement than you already have with the government as it now stands?

Apocalyptic belief is a function of faith - that luminous inner conviction that needs no recourse to evidence. It is customary to pose against immovable faith the engines of reason, but in this instance I would prefer that delightful human impulse - curiosity, the hallmark of mental freedom. Organized religion has always had - and I put this mildly - a troubled relationship with curiosity. Islam's distrust, at least in the past two hundred years, is best expressed by it's attitude to those whose faith falls away, to apostates who are drawn to other religions or to none at all.
In recent times, in 1975, the mufti of Saudi Arabia, Bin Baz, in a fatwa, quoted by Shmuel Bar, ruled as followed "Those who claim that the earth is round and moving around the sun are apostates and their blood can be shed and their property can be taken in the name of God." Bin Baz rescinded this judgment ten years later. Mainstream Islam routinely prescribes punishment for apostates that ranges from ostracism to beatings to death. To enter one of the many websites where Muslim apostates anonymously exchange views is to encounter a world of brave and terrified men and women who have succumbed to their disaffection and intellectual curiosity.
And Christians should not feel smug. The first commandment - on pain of death if we were to take the matter literally - is Thou shalt have no other Gods before me. In the fourth century, St. Augustine put the matter well for Christianity, and his view prevailed for a long time: "There is another form of temptation, even more fraught with danger. This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which drives us to try and discover the secrets of nature which are beyond our understanding, which can avail us nothing, and which man should not wish to learn."

And yet it is curiosity, scientific curiosity, that has delivered us genuine, testable knowledge of the world and contributed to our understanding of our place within it and of our nature and condition. This knowledge has a beauty of its own, and it can be terrifying. We are barely beginning to grasp the implications of what we have recently learned.
And what exactly have we learned?

I draw here from a Stephen Pinker essay on his ideal of a university: Among other things we have learned that our planet is a minute speck in an inconceivably vast cosmos; that
our species has existed for a tiny fraction of the history of the history of the earth; that
humans are primates; that the mind is the activity of an organ that runs by physiological processes; that there are methods of ascertaining the truth that can force us to conclusions which violate common sense, sometimes radically so at scales very large and very small; that precious and widely held beliefs, when subjected to empirical tests, are often cruelly falsified, that we cannot create energy or use it without loss.

Ian McEwan. "End of The World Blues"

The old testament is responsible for more atheism, agnosticism, disbelief - call it what you will - than any book ever written.
A.A.Milne 1882 - 1956. author of the Winnie the Pooh books.

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies.
Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Dr Woods.

In the realm of science, all attempts to find any evidence of supernatural beings, of metaphysical conceptions, as God, immortality, infinity, etc.,thus have failed, and if we are honest, we must confess that in science there exists no God, no immortality, no soul or mind as distinct from the body.
Charles Proteus Steinmetz 1865 - 1923. Inventor and Engineer writing in The American Freeman newspaper July 1941

As a historian, I confess to a certain amusement when I hear the Judeo-Christian tradition praised as the source of our present day concern for human rights...In fact the great religious ages were notable for their indifference to human rights.
Arthur Schlesinger Jr. Historian in a speech at Brown University 1989.

Religion is an illusion.
Sigmund Freud; The Interpretation of Dreams.

Surely the ass who invented the first religion ought to be the first ass damned.
Mark Twain.

The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense.

Thomas Paine, 1732 - 1809. British/American Revolutionary Hero.

In those days in Far Rockaway there was a youth centre for Jewish kids at the temple...Somebody nominated me for president of the youth center. The elders began getting nervous, because I was an avowed atheist by that time.
I thought nature itself was so interesting that I didn't want it distorted by miracle stories. And so I gradually came to disbelieve the whole religion.
Richard Feynman. Nobel Prize-winning physicist in "What Do You Care What Other People Think?"

Today the theory of evolution is an accepted fact for everyone but a fundamentalist minority, whose objections are based not on reasoning but on doctrinaire adherence to religious principles.
James Watson Nobel Prize-winning biologist and co-discoverer of the structure of DNA.

Evolution, as such, is no longer a theory for a modern author. It is as much a fact as that the earth revolves around the sun.
Ernst Mayer. 1904-2005 "Twilight of The Idols"

Which is it; is man one of god's blunders?
Or is God one of man's blunders?
Nietzsche in "Twilight of The Idols"

How can any woman believe that a loving and merciful god would, in one breath, command Eve to multiply and replenish the earth, and in the next, pronounce a curse on her maternity?
Elizabeth Cady Stanton. 1815-1902.Feminist leader

The study of theology ,as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing.
Thomas Paine 1737-1809 "The Age of Reason".

A knowledge of the true age of the earth and of the fossil record makes it impossible for any balanced intellect to believe in the literal truth of every part of the Bible in the way that fundamentalists do. And if some of the Bible is manifestly wrong, why should any of the rest of it be accepted automatically?
Francis Crick 1916-2004. Nobel Prize-winning biophysicist and co-discoverer of the structure of DNA. in "What Mad Pursuit".

Quotes from "Atheist Universe" by David Mills
Pub. Ulysses Press. 2006

These would not be the 1st candidates to parade their piety. William Jennings Bryan comes to mind. That feels different than showing an intent to use the office to impose a particular brand of faith on America - whatever faith that might be.

Amazing () NO GRACE!

Next thing We know, Like Sneakyspoiler/Devils Advocate & Enabler (Mr. Rabbi JEZEUS YASHUA god Lover's) Chuck Colson & Co,

(Another big Business man looking for a Share of that $2-Billion Dollar carrot, a Secular , but Illegal, Faith-Based Pie via establishing via Executive Usurpation self serving Orderings)

Pre-Apocalypticaly/Freudiantly slipped & Said,

"Warren & Co. [Evilgelicals & Gang] Got Church-State Balance Right".

WOW!

Next Thing We Know , Chucky Boy & Co [Follower of Biblio 'Rabbi-JESUS-the-HATER', not OUR loving G-D thinkers) will be saying,

"WARREN & Co., {Jealousicals & Co.] Got RELiGiON-SCiENCE Balance Right." too!

----

Sick'm! Go Get'm JUSTiCES of this Miraculous U.S. SUPREME [SECUALR, not CHURCH] COURT! Destroy them "NiCOLAiTAN"s [Evangelicals, aka Evilgelicals] before they [Rick Warrenm via likes of 'CNN' Devils/Satan/Jinn/Kali's Advocates] Take over the U.S. Constitution by Pre-Apocalyptic Lies & More Lying Tactics, dressed in Apocalyptic Clothing!!

Please, U.S. Sct Justices:

VOTE: REMOVE , PULPit Legislating, Rick Warrens Saddleback 'I.R.S.' Tax Exempt Privilige (not a Right) today! And 'CNN''s FCC License, Before the Election!

Please U.S. Sct Justices:

STOP Anything G.W. BUSH now, until January! UN-LEGiSLATE, & Reverse, Most of G.W. Bush's [self Serving] 'EXECUTiVE-OREDERS" since Taking Office! Fix What's Broken, Not Whats not Broken & Prevent further Cheapening of American's Rights & Freedom's, guaranteed by O.U.R. Forefathers & Mothers, not EVANGELiCALs & Similarly Religiously Decieving!

Thank-A-SHA{ME}!

---
Paid For by the "JOCKTAN & ECLAT{ARiAN} Nationalis Party of America, 2013+"

oooppss:

"i" saiyth to:

"VOTE:
REmove ALL, EVERY & ANY "SECUALR-privilged" (not a Right) I.R.S. 'Tax-Exempt' Status's given to Rick Warren & CO., SaddleBack 4-Mega Churches Today, not Tomorrow; For Devilishly attempting to Usurp the U.S. "S T A T E" Constiution(s), not CHURCH(s), not JESUS's, not MOSSES's, Not MUHHAMAD's, not VYASA's, Not GAUTAMA's , not CONFUSeicus , Guru, Lama etc.!

Note: Also, VOTE:
REmove All, Every & Any [Secular Privilige] "FCC" (Federal Communication Commission) Consetions & or LiCenses to "C N N" who is also the Devils Advocate on the News, Cable & Satellite networks!

DOWN with SaddleBack CHURCH(s) & DOWN with CNN News Syndicate for Promoting a Usurpationing Moment, contrary to their Priviliges (NO-A-RiGHT; Granted by OUR SECULAR Gov, not Theirs) Today! Not Tomorrow!

Goodbye Saddle-Back Church & similarly Sistuated!

Goodbye CNN & Similarly Situated!

The JUSTiCES are gonna Rise Again!

ON: "We believe in separation of church and state" but

"Not faith and politics."

Wow! There goes ['WE', Evilgelicals] them Satanic verses Lovers & BOLLiXERing DEVils, aka 'WORD MERCANT(s)" or "MiNister(s) of EVERYTHiNG" , aka "SiTUATional Lyers!"

Talking about "Word-Merchant"s, Word-up!

Note: The Word 'CHURCH' (A Tax-Exempt Religion(s) Institution) requires "BELiEF", aka "FAiTH", aka "RELiGiON!" and

The Word "STATE" requires NO-Belief, Religion, Faith (in ANY religion).

PS: Hope god player (not OUR G-D) or Jealous Evilgelical WARREN & CO., knows the meaning of "SECULAR"!?

Please Satan(s)[Rick Warren et al] , stop with Ye 'Ambiguous/Ambiguity' Word Bollixing Tactics! A devilish tool which Satan is a Master of & ye Practice & Advocate! Yes Language mixing-up Tactics!

Please Satan(s) [Rick Warren & Co.] Please Do not Confuse that Holy Cosmic Word "SECULAR" with O.U.R. knowledge of the Words "ATHEiST" & the Word "AGNOSTiC"!

iNCAMERA (Secret): The "SECULAR"iST(s) Religion, is a "Holy Cosmic Feelings FAiTH" , an Apocalyptic BELiEF, like a RELiGiON, but based on TRUTH (opposite of MYTH)!

Please Satanic Versus's Lover Rick Warren Et al, Throw-away ye man-made PRE-APOCALYPTiC Religion(s) business's competing for a Name for Mr. Rabbi Yashua JESUS, as if god, instead of "O.U.R. innate G-D" as innate System()! Hence, No Need for CHURCH-BASED worship, which is dependent on man made BELiEF, FAiTH & RELiGiON!

Note: And Please Rick Warren, et al: When ye speak the Word "god" please say JESUS instead of god please!

If Ye Want MONARCHY & or THEOCRACY whom are both based on 'BELiEF', 'RELiGiON', 'BELiEF' System, but Not, Never , zero, NO "S T A T E!"

So, S T A T E (a Institution) , in America ,atleast, does-NOT, Does NEVER, ever require a ANY 'Belief' as ye Devilishly Purport, not does S T A T E require a Belief, nor a [Organized] Religion to Run it!

Interseting: Mr. Warren [Satans Advocate] wantsYe Freudiantly Sliped & Saith, "believe in separation of church and state".

Please Sirs, Mamm's, Rick Warren & Co.,

As Ye having a Serious bout of "Synergeticless SPLiT-MiNDED Psychotic" as Thinker's , including acute "RELiGiO Jealousy Psychosis" & a touch of "PRE-APOCALYPTiC Syndrome"

Ye must be honest with Ye-selves in that Ye MUST, Must NEVER-Dillusionally--CONFUSE (Bollixed) Ye own Jealousy as a JESUS "belief" (not OUR) with OUR [SECULAR/ECLAT+i] STATE business!"

Soo, Pleaaazzea: "BELiEF" in YE (not OUR) Rabbi JESUS the god Player(s) in a CHURCH, but seperately BELiEVE in OUR (not YE) Government , aka S T A T E.

Ye word "Belief" System applies to ye Mega-CHURCH niot to any U.S. STATE "confidence"! NOT NEVER & ZERO in BELiEVEing in OUR (not your Jesus plaease) STATE! Ye have to believe in a Live Human Beings! Believe in [SECULAR minded ] Human Beings running-A-STATE. Not Belief in [Pre-Apocalyptic] Religious CHURCH Matters!

-------

interesting: Ye DEViLS [Evangelicals Jealous Folk] not long ago, got caught-up , Knowingly, as LYiNG/LiARs, with straight Faces, TO A (Seculat-State-Federal) JUSTiCE , and almost the U.S. SUPREME COURT Justices or Judges, in a SECULAR STATE court System (STATE established institution, not CHURCH established institution) via Ye Sneakarooing Tactics (A Statanic Tool/Ploy/Stratagy/Game..) via JESUS-CHRiSTO as if be the "iNTELLiGENT-DESiGNER" of O.U.R. (not Yours alone) Reality on a Hol{i} Cosmic Move!

But Fortunatly, ye DEvils got Caught LYiNG or Trying to Hi-jack our Public [SECULAR-STATE] School-SYSTEM in All America! Hence, Ye Pre-Apocalyptic Folk almost Succeded. Now Ye NEW 'Tactic' is an attempt To USURP & thus infiltrate our NATiONAL-STATE-GOV with a Devilish & Ambiguous Word such as 'BELiEF'(in JESUS) as if also belongs in BELiEViNG in SECULAR-GOVERNMENT/STATE!???

Hint: YE Pre-Apocalyptic holy Biblical word 'water' storys is in fact night/Day Different than O.U.R. Apocalyptarian-Nationalis awareness of "H2O". Same goes for YE Pre-Apocalyptic biblical 'light' storys, not O.U.R. Apocalyptic awareness of "PHOTON" story!

Hint: And there is also a night/Day Difference Between a PRE-APOCALYpTiC [JESUS... Lover] , as a SciENTiST. And That of a APOCALYPTARiAN [ECLAT + "i" = LiFE/Photons Lovers] , as Scientist, or Jurist, or Teacher, Novice, Amateur, Professional etc..!

------- THEREFORE:

VOTE: MODERN MORALiTY [Apocalyptarianity] is Superior to ANY Biblio Morality [Pre-Apocalyptarianity].

VOTE: GRiDARiAN-DEMOCRACY & TRANS{FiNiTE}-CiViLiZATiON U.S.A. 2013+!

VOTE: REmove ALL, EVERY & ANY "SECUALR-privilged" (not a Right) I.R.S. 'Tax-Exempt' Status's given to Rick Warren & CO., SaddleBack 4-Mega Churches Today, not Tomorrow; For Devilishly attempting to Usurp the U.S. "S T A T E" Constiution(s), not CHURCH(s), not JESUS's, not MOSSES's, Not MUHHAMAD's, not VYASA's, Not GAUTAMA's , not CONFUSeicus , Guru, Lama etc.!

Advice: Please SATANic verse Lovers, Stay the Hell-OUT of SECULAR [Apocalyptic-Government] 'BELiEV'ERS in STATE-Business & thus stick to Ye own Pre-Apocalyptic CHURCH via 'BELiEF' [Pre-Apocalyptic-RELiGiON's].

PS: Ye Pre-Apocalyptic Satanic Trickster, via Ye CHRiSTiANDOM Belief System(s) will be DESTROYED!, A.S.A.P!

Hark ECLAT{i}-ON(s), RiSE-UP ECLAT{ARiAN}'s , Rise-up APOCALYPTARiAN(s)!

DESTROY The "NiCOLAiTAN"(s) [Enemys of the STATE, aka Satans/Devils Exposed or Conspirators] wherever Ye Find Them in Sweet Sweet AMERiCA!

DEPRiVe THEM of ECLATi given CHURCH-Rights via SECUALR Constitutional Rights, not Bible(s), not TENACH(s), not QURAN(s), Not GiTA(s), Not KANGYUR(s), not TRIpITAKA9s) etc..!! Never CHURCH!

W A R N i N G, Mr. DEvils Advocate Richy WARREN & CO. Ye Will Be Assasinated soon, if Ye Keep Harping & Testing SECULAR Loving Folks, like Us, Who 'BELiEVE' & Trust & Worship in their Miraculous U.S. Constitution & noT or No Longer in Ye un-Miraculous JEZEUS 'BELiEF' in someone elses god (not OUR G-D, aka ECLATi) JEalousy System(s), that Will Be Destroyed , in U.S.A. in +/- 150 Years!

Go Gather-up some Money with yopur International Organized Religio MAFiOSO's Thuggs, & have ,President Elect Chavez of Venezualla ASASSiNATED!

Maybe not YE, but "i" can Hear the 'Death-Knoll' (Scream) of Ye MEGA-CHURCH as a Tax-Exempt, SECULAR Priviliged, as Entity/Institution! Soon!