Lutherans Decide Not to Decide

Reading your article "Lutherans decide not to decide", I cannot find a definition for the word "parotally", please define.

The dispute comes down to "How do we read Scripture?"

Do we read it as a book of rules set down for a peasant Middle Eastern society 2,000 years ago and still applicable to us?

Or do we read it as the revelation of the saving grace of the God who came to earth in human form, suffered, and died, because He understands that we cannot on our own live without sinning?

And no matter which way we answer that question, what about the requirement to remove the log from our own eye before worrying about the speck in the eye of our neighbor?

Sorry Mr. Marty, one is neither dedicated nor consecrated when they make themselves God and decide which scriptures they will or will not obey. It doesn't matter how much you are liked or respected in the world of men. Either God is God or you are.

I dispute the notion that slavery is "supported" in the Bible.But however we failed in the past is not an excuse for overt disobedience.
Maybe the ELC should consider following Biblical teaching on divorce and re-marraige as well. Or maybe the church should remove "evangelical" from their title and call themselves "the Lutheran Church That Obeys Some of the Scriptures".

Prof. Martin Marty

Thank you for your clarifying essay as a Lutheran on the ELCA's non-decision decision (a chaste and and chastised decision judging from some reactions) arrived at so as not to be premature and prejudging the outcome of deliberations and determinations on the upcoming "sex-and-your-faith" study due in 2009.

Thank you and regards
J

"I have no more use for these silly liberal games."

Then go start your own church. You're no longer in the majority in the U.S., and if you don't like it, you can go stick your head in the sand somewhere else."Gay" and "Christian" don't have to be mutually exclusive. Love is love.

If you want to compare Christianity to a tree, well, it's a tree with many, many branches--and seedlings. There's shade for all; it just may not be where you used to find it.

The Story of the Christian Tree

There once was a magnificent 2,000 year old tree. It gathered 5,000 year old jewish earth to its roots for food.

This tree remained in one place as all trees do.

It was constant.

It had branches.

It was a tree afterall.

One of the branches delt with teachings on poverty.

Another branch delt with loving thy neighbor.

Another dealt with the purposes of our sexual relationships and how we are to love each other.

Still others where branches of salvation.

It was hot where the people lived and the sun had no mercy. People loved to seek shelter and wisdom from this Christian tree. They had done so for 1000s of years.

One day the liberals came to cut down the branch of sexual ethics. No longer would the tree provide the next generations of Christian children with a respite from the sun. The tree cutters began to hack away.

So the tree which could not move or change its shape simply responded:

"I am a tree. Why do you cut down my 5,000 year old branch of sexual ethics?"

And when the tree protested the cutting of its branches the liberals responded:

"Curse you tree, you are obsessed with things sexual"

And the Christians were amazed that a charge could be made against the tree. Those Christians who tried to stop the cutting of the branch of sexual ethics were told they too were obsessed with gays and stupid.

The cutters did not realize that they had walked up to the tree.

Trying to sweep the issue under the rug by raising the supposed support for slavery in the bible is not a fair comparison. It is a retreat from the Cross. If Martin Marty is going to justify a wrong (homosex) with a supposed OTHER wrong where exactly does it end? It is exactly this kind of 3rd grade reasoning that makes people RUN from liberal Christianity. This isn't a book club, its the word of God and it is meant to be respected and believed and not tossed aside when the going gets tough. Who exactly is he helping get to heaven by this?

The challenge for ALL christians is to hold firmly to the word of God and at the same time love all of God's children no matter what they do. Hate the sin but LOVE the sinner. That is the ultimate test of Christian ethics and it will make us better Christians.

I have no more use for these silly liberal games.

What is it with the "Christians" unhealthy obsession with sex? It seems to me that it is pathological.

I think it's sad that so many churches are bitterly divided over the issue of gay ministers.

In my experience, the people who have the most trouble with homosexuality are either insecure about their own sexual identities, or uncomfortable with the very idea that humans are sexual beings. Some of them cloak their views with their religious beliefs, saying the Bible allows them to be intolerant of others' behavior. In essence, though, they're selectively choosing a few verses to justify their own, very human homophobia.

I think what drives most homophobia is fear: fear of the unknown--especially when one does not personally know someone who is gay; fear of the "homosexual agenda," which is seen as a threat to traditional values; and/or fear of the breakup of one's church.

The only cure for this rampant fear, I believe, is time. Younger generations of Americans are much less likely to judge people based on their sexual preferences, and much more likely to be open about what their own preferences are. We're more "live and let live" in this regard. Many of us know someone who is gay and out of the closet, and we realize this does not doom someone to a life of misery or disease. We know that gays want the opportunity to be themselves, not the chance to "indoctrinate" others. As we get older and begin to take positions of power within our churches, how people of faith view the subject of gay rights will change.

In the meantime, a little more "love your neighbor as yourself" would go a long way. The thing that scares many people away from churches is how narrow-minded and judgemental many people who wear their Bibles on their sleeves can really be.

I think it's sad that so many churches are bitterly divided over the issue of gay ministers.

In my experience, the people who have the most trouble with homosexuality are either insecure about their own sexual identities, or uncomfortable with the very idea that humans are sexual beings. Some of them cloak their views with their religious beliefs, saying the Bible allows them to be intolerant of others' behavior. In essence, though, they're selectively choosing a few verses to justify their own, very human homophobia.

I think what drives most homophobia is fear: fear of the unknown--especially when one does not personally know someone who is gay; fear of the "homosexual agenda," which is seen as a threat to traditional values; and/or fear of the breakup of one's church.

The only cure for this rampant fear, I believe, is time. Younger generations of Americans are much less likely to judge people based on their sexual preferences, and much more likely to be open about what their own preferences are. We're more "live and let live" in this regard. Many of us know someone who is gay and out of the closet, and we realize this does not doom someone to a life of misery or disease. We know that gays want the opportunity to be themselves, not the chance to "indoctrinate" others. As we get older and begin to take positions of power within our churches, how people of faith view the subject of gay rights will change.

In the meantime, a little more "love your neighbor as yourself" would go a long way. The thing that scares many people away from churches is how narrow-minded and judgemental many people who wear their Bibles on their sleeves can really be.

For the author:

"So, where were things now? On one side are conscientious members who are torn over the fact that several inches of print in the scriptures are given to criticism of homosexual relations."

Oh... Is there a large-print edition out? That could be handy around here. :)

I'm wondering, JJ... Why your own 'great light' has no great light for gay people, when you yourself insist spirituality transcends the body on elemental levels.

In fact, I've seen you use anti gay-slurs that would have been caught by filters *if you could spell them.*

Could it be, self-styled prophet, that your Eclat is in fact *off* on this issue?

Something's personal for you on this, I think.

But this is not the way.

I could say the same for many, here.

LIVE From Coney Island:


VOTE (((((( Peace-Love-Rock-n-Roll-n-Rap, Mitt ROMNEY for Prez Ya! 2008 ))))))))

All same sex Couples & Gays welcome, Thank You!

The Lutheran Churches, and all other religious organizations, would take a great leap forward toward peace, harmony, and enlightenment, if they simply adopted The Ham Sandwich Principle in relation to gay issues.

The Principle is this:

Spend no more time debating or being concerned with gay issues than you do debating and worrying about what should be done with clergy and parishoners who eat ham sandwiches.

Eating ham sandwiches, and being gay or having gay sex, have the same cosmic significance.

Act on that Principle and you'll be closer to attaining Salvation.

God must love homosexuals. He's made so many of them. In so many centuries, including, dears, in bible times.
What fools lead the churches in America this century, forever tying themsleves into knots like so many children in tantrums.
While the divorced, with all kinds of horror stories of adultry and violence, trot up to the communion table.
There was a study in the 70s about the number male babies born during the London blitz
who were homosexual...the theory being that
perhaps some deciding hormone didn't kick in during terrible stress...
Shouldn't more serious study on the subject be undertaken?
Why just bloviation by some silly preacher with a screaming red face? My own Episcopalian Church certainly notwithstanding.

Ooooopppps....

Sorry, wrong thread!

Mr. Berlinerblau,

You have an unusual and very interesting name. Combination French/German.

Everyone should know what a Berliner is.

Blau is the German word for blue, but it can also mean sad or drunk.

So are you a blue, sad or drunk Berliner????

Former Christian:

Well said!

Jacob:

Jacob,

Your photons are dimming, don't let that happen. Eclati-ons never offs do not call other people freaks. We are light and love, not darkness and nastiness. Remember my planet hopping friend, you could hop into the wrong body next time around.

Dear Martin,

Your positions are modiate, well-thought out and reasonable -- something that probably dooms them to the abyss in today's current environment.

What most religious "leaders" and those that blindly follow seem to forget is that you can use the bible, if you want, to exclude virtually everyone. There are admonitions against working on the sabbath, obeisity, worshiping graven images, even coveting (thinking about) a neighbor's wife. And yet there's nothing against the idea of owning another person (slavery). A point you make very well.

When you use the bible as your sole source of moral guidance, you are forced to throw out entire chapters and sometimes virtually whole books. Who among us would teach their children that God, in his infinite love, would kill everything (the flood) and start again -- especially considering that this means God killed innocent child and animals that, by definition, cannot know sin. What moral lesson can we learn from this story?

Or how about the story of Lott, who was so willing to give up is virgin daughters to be used any way the people of the city wanted in order to protect a couple of men? Where is the good moral lesson to be learned from this story of the bible -- protect male friends at all costs even if it means allowing your daughters to be gang raped?

And of course there's my favorite, Moses. Now here's a good moral story. Forget about the plagues brought down by God against all the people of Egypt. Let's just concentrate on the pass over. Here we have God, supposedly punishing all the first born of Egypt including animals and people, because of the stubborn nature of Pharaoh. Only, wasn't it God who hardened Pharaoh's heart? And what did the poor citizens of Egypt have to do with Pharaoh's behavior? Maybe God wasn't that particular about punishing just the evil doers -- but that would call into question God's love, omnipotence and justice.

An objective reading of the bible reveals NOT, some truely inspirational view on how to live together. No, it reveals the hideous conditions that people lived in at the time and an awe of pure power. But moral teachings are sorely lacking from the bible and any attack on homosexuals based on the bible really begs the question: Who would want to use the bible to teach morals? And if you do, what do you do with all of those stories that teach that randomly killing is fine, torture is fine, killing children is fine?

A reasonable person would be far better off taking their moral guidance from any of the Harry Potter novels. In them, one can find good vs. evil, friendship, loyalty, love and honesty. These are values that would be nice if they were found in the bible. Unfortunately, they are buried under a pile of red herrings that would cause one to be sent to jail, if practiced today. Would anyone want to defend Abraham after he tied up his son, preparing to burn him? For what, his belief that God wants him to do that?

Whenever someone quotes from the bible in order to justify their "exclusive" behavior -- remind them about that loving God who so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son -- 4,000 years after (supposedly) he sent the first sinners into the fires in hell. Talk about holding a grudge for a long period of time....4,000 years is a long time from original sin before Jesus was sent to earth. But that's another story altogether.

JJ:
**The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, should Loose their 503 (c) "Not For Profit" Status in America if they will "change" Church Policy to accomadate "Gay-Feddish-People" and contrary to Biblical Mr. LOT who ran away from Sodom & Gommorah & the Mr. Adam & Mrs. Eve biblical, as if true Story's!**

Literal belief in a particular scripture is not required for a church to be considered a non-profit under 501(c)(3). In fact, no creed whatsoever is necessary, as was recently decided by the federal courts in a case where an application for a UU church was being held up because soemone thought that UU was not a real religion because they don't have a creed.

And there are lots of non-Biblical religions that have 501(c)(3) status for their organizations - Buddhist temples, mosques, Ba'hai temples, Mahikari dojos - just to name a few.

**they will use their "New-Gay-Church" via Policy change. to defile & Corrupt the Secular's World of a Marriage between a Man & a Woman & Equal Rights Laws & Clauses & statutes.**

Marriage laws that exclude same-sex couples are foul and corrupt. There is not one good reason to deny same sex couples the right to LEGALLY marry. And same sex marriage will not affect hetero marriage one way or the other. When a gay friend and his husband recently got married, it did not cause any change whatsoever in my relationship with my husband. In fact, the only effect it had on us at all was that we bought them a wedding gift and wished them much happiness together.