We "Blew It" in Iraq

Faith is the license religious people give one another when the questions being asked reveal the untenibility of their belief system. So faith is what happens when we stop being able to answer questions.

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HEWITT- while you are right that one should not use a broad brush to paint things one color or another-
i must without apology state that thereis no pre-emptive war allowed in islam- there is a codified rules of war that are not negotiable and not disputed by anymuslims unless they are inventing something new- which is also- not allowed in islam-

the rules aere absolutely inclusive and extremely conscientious- there are proscriptions for the treatment of combatant- if a combatant says with his mouth that he will cease aggressions- he is to be transported unmolested to a neutral point of safety-
animals are not allowed to be hurt or abused in the service of war- or at all- trees are not to be cut!!!

this is not an issue muslims sit around and argue about- it is absolute and not debated- it is clear and straightforward and comprehensive.

i wont print it because it will take pages but if you are interested search for rules of war in
islam and discover for yourself the wisdom inherent in it.
peace

Hewitt Rose :)

Three cheers for Ethiopia? It is the beginning of a long bloody time for Ethiopians and Somalians, especially since the Somailians knew the Ethiopians were encouraged by the US to invade their country.

Invasion is not productive. Pre-emptive or preventive strike is agression by any other name. It is a declaration of war.

VULCAN _7:

God said, "earn thy bread by the sweat of thy face." When we get done with that one we can get to the rest of what God wants us to do. Free blessings come from Devil, not God. God clearly wants us to earn what we have.

War is a situation where folks are helping themselves to the treasure of others. When it's stolen merchandise they're fighting over the issue get's clouded. Now "just" who's gold is that anyhow the high priest is using to sacrifice to God?

Don't forget, "render to Caesar the things that are Caesars, (all comes from robbery) and to God, (justify robbery) that which is God's."

Above all else remember, "it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a, (recently changed from, the) needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

While we anxiously await the return of Jesus to rule His kingdom who will set on His throne and see to it that His laws are enforced?

http://www.hoax-buster.org for the rest of the story.

Pure truth in every sense of the phrase that comes to my mind. Hopefully we can in-hell it back into some semblance of civilization. God Bless and Keep you and yours kind and just surveyor of man's deeds through time.

Victoria:

"[T]here is no such thing as a pre-emptive war in islam"? You cannot defend Islam with a broad brush any more than you can attack Islam with a broad brush. There are all kinds of Muslims. To fundamentalist Muslims there is no pre-emptive war; there is only an unending war of extermination against the unconverted, including fellow Muslims. Other Muslims make distinctions.

And just why is pre-emptive war so bad? Use your example. Ethiopia had a legitimate reason to fear a fundamentalist Muslim takeover of Somalia, consolidation of their power, and then an attack on Ethiopia. It has happened before. Ethiopia attacked at the just right time--the fundamentalists were over extended--and so prevented a fundamentalist takeover. Three cheers for Ethiopia and virtue of pre-emptive war.

mr marty- there is no such thing as a pre-emptive war in islam- the only justification is defense of homeland if aggressed upon- and if the aggression stops- so does the war- however- india was just give a big pile of nuclear arms by the US so it is certainly not beyond the scope of possibility-

unfortunately the idea of 'pre-emptive strikes' has already infected ethiopia- who engaged their own little pre-emptive strike on somalia- im not defending somalia in any way- but i did watch the bbc ask the ambassador of ethipia in an interview- if crossing over into another countries border(such as ethipia did o somalia) couldnt be defined as an aggressive act of war- and the ambassador said- with a straight face- 'no, it is simply a pre-emptive strike'.

were spreading such a wonderful philosophy all over the world-

Warpten:
He talked to, you know who, "the God or your father," voice coming from a ball of fire speaking to Moses.

He thinks that's God, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul puts that baby to bed big time. These ministers don't like to hear that of course. But "you know who" the lot of them talk to when they talk to God. Now take Pat Roberston for example.

By the way 10 is few warps shy of where they're at if you know what I mean.

I don't consider myself a Christian but I do consider myself an ethical person. What pains me so much about this war and these posts, is I don't think any of it makes any difference. I think Bush and Cheney will go right on doing as they want - he is, after all, the Decider. I don't think any of our elected officials will really do anything to make any changes in our official philosophy. Does war make any sense? Somehow my country has become something other than what I cherished when I was a child.

Prof. Marty raises a very interesting point about both sides of all wars calling their cause just. It raises all sorts of problems for "just war" theologies (which as an atheist I can't help noting seem to run counter to very specific passages attributed to Jesus in Mark and Luke).

One of the commenters wrote "Just war has long since been moot because we are not waging war against another party."

Well, we are certainly killing people and getting killed in return. It looks and smells like war, and it certainly costs money like a war. Actually, the origins of this war are far from moot in this discussion. It was based on lies and manipulated intelligence, and it is not now and never was in the interests of the United States to pursue this course. Unless you are a war profiteer -- like certain companies with close ties to the Bush-Cheney Administration.

Mr. Marty,

How do you reconcile that Mr. Bush sold this war largely with the help of the religious conservative base in the US and under the guise that he was talking to God about the importance of invading Iraq to look for WMD.

Do you think Bush was:

1) Really talking to God?
2) Really talking to himself?
3) Talking to You know who instead?

It can't be 1) since there were no WMD right....

That leaves 2) or 3)

Its just war and theres nothing just about it being it was based on lies from the get go.Even if this war is considered a win in the end those dead won nothing so imo ill never consider it being won, just ending and nobody the winner.

Dennis, I feel your pain.

I was struck by the wording. Maybe if we say the proper magic words and phrases all the sons and daughters of mothers killed in "just war" will retrun to them? I don't think so.

Where do I stand on the war? It's a reality. I'm like a parent going to the police station to pick up a kid at 2 AM. It's still h/er kid. This is still my country. We're beyond blame or analysis of "just anything" and at the point of how best to get my country out of a mess. And I know how my government works so I know Bush is not to blame all by himself. We can't fire the team but we can fire the captain. 2008 will be here before you know it unless congress decides to do a head start program.

Maybe we can still turn these sows ears into silk purses but "go to you churches, temples, synagogues, mosques and pray" will not cut it in my opinion. We prayed ourselves into a mess and Devil help those still praing for it's Devil and not God that guided us here.

Whatever the morality of the original intervention, Coalition forces are now in Iraq under a UN mandate and at the invitation of the constitutionally elected and internationally recognized popular government, to assist it in restoring order following three decades of brutal totalitarianism. Just war has long since been moot because we are not waging war against another party.

Mr. Marty. I agree. It is just war, and an immoral, unjustified one for being that.

The US is showing a less than sterling "leadership by example".

It has lost its moral and ethical high ground in international relations, diplomacy and leadership for a while now. And at great cost to American taxpayers.

Has no one here ever read the "Project for the New American Century"?

I totally agree and I'm glad to see religious thinker, like Mr. Marty, reaching the same conclusion as any secular humanist.

I am not sure how Mrs. Sheehan got into the conversation. Nor am I too clear as to where bgone comes down on the issue of the war.
I am sure that Dr. Marty knows his stuff. I have been reading it all through my ministry. I know him to be objective. When he can't be he is upfront about it.
As a Christian pacifist I know that the world will act as if Christ has no relevance. But he has said, love your enemies, do good to those who persecute you.
My prayers are with the military personnel, their families, and with the Iraqi people. It is a war that need not have happened.

No kidding? It's not a "just war," it's "just war."

Has anyone thought to tell Cindy Shehan the good news?